Amoveo ♥🧿
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18 May 2018
Z
21:01
Zack
To find out when the Oracle can be closed, right?
OK
21:02
O K
In reply to this message
Will you consider having a "List oracles" button so anyone can look up oracles easily?
21:03
You're such a fast coder, it seems like you could knock that out in a moment
Z
21:03
Zack
I am fast at doing what is possible.
OK
21:03
O K
I see
Z
21:03
Zack
If you ask a full node to do a full search of the entire oracle tree, that is a lot of database reads.
21:04
It is a ddos vulnerability
OK
21:04
O K
"List recent oracles" ?
Z
21:04
Zack
I guess I could put it on the internal api, and then you could make a static interface that updates every 10 minutes. Kind of like Jim Hsu page.
OK
21:04
O K
Thanks for explaining
S
21:05
Sy
oracles:all seems to be rather fast
Z
21:05
Zack
There are only 6 oracles now
21:06
Eventually there could be hundreds of thousands.
21:07
In reply to this message
Each full node has different markets. It is a subset of oracles where you support bettig now.
OK
21:07
O K
Right, makes sense
S
21:07
Sebsebzen
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😠, 41.8 KB
S
21:08
Sy
so can someone besides zack tell me how i save the oracle id into a variable to base64 encode it?
OK
21:08
O K
What about if you made a separate branch, and someone could choose to run a ddos vulrnerable node if they wanted?
S
21:08
Sy
and you get the value out of oracle all how?
Z
21:08
Zack
hd and tl are simple functions to deal with lists.
S
21:09
Sy
it can be closed at block 23090 so i will wait and hope that there is a better way by then
Z
21:09
Zack
element(N, tuple). Is a simple function for tuples
S
21:09
Sy
but we got a real old governance oracle...i wonder what it is changing
21:10
3044,1,50
21:10
how do i translate numbers back to their atom name?
Z
21:10
Zack
Record.hrl shows the order of elements in an Oracle record
S
21:10
Sy
or it did change...if someone would close it
21:10
i know that
21:10
thats why i know its a governance variable
21:10
the question was, how do i translate it back to the atom name
21:11
you dont start an oracle with 3044, 50
Z
21:11
Zack
Oracle:all includes oracles that have been closed
S
21:11
Sy
you use an atom name
21:11
i see 3 gov changes there
OK
Z
21:11
Zack
Oh, you want to know which gov variable is signified by the number
S
21:11
Sy
2 old and mine
21:11
yes
Z
21:12
Zack
1 is block reward
15 is spend fee
15 is spend fee
S
21:12
Sy
you called them atoms, not my words :D
Z
S
21:12
Sy
ah
21:12
so block reward got changed twice
Z
21:12
Zack
Yes. They are atoms.
Atoms are one of the basic data types of erlang. They are used everywhere.
Atoms are one of the basic data types of erlang. They are used everywhere.
21:13
We increased the block reward, then almost immediately decreased it again
S
21:13
Sy
ah thats why i see it twice
21:14
block 2014 to 4133
Z
21:14
Zack
rp (X). Can be used to display all of X without cutting any off.
S
21:15
Sy
thank you
21:15
now thats an acceptable workaround ^^
21:18
done timer: 22096
21:18
i can close it?
Z
21:19
Zack
Looks like you should be able to
S
21:21
Sy
hmm what is the name of the readme that lists the commands?
21:24
okay i closed it...i think
lets wait a few blocks, it said ok
lets wait a few blocks, it said ok
OK
21:24
O K
ok
S
21:25
Sy
ah btw zack the fee is 0.00125 not 0.000125 like you said earlier
21:25
i think you did ^^
21:25
should be 0.000625 soon tho, about 20 ct
21:26
problem is, every light node applies 125 hard coded
Z
21:30
Zack
Yeah, that fee is hard coded in too many places. It needs to be fixed.
S
21:31
Sy
this oracle closed in state: false
this is a governance oracle
governance variable: 15
governance amount: 50
starts: 21090
current type: false
done timer: 22463
this is a governance oracle
governance variable: 15
governance amount: 50
starts: 21090
current type: false
done timer: 22463
Z
21:35
Zack
Good job
OK
22:01
O K
Problems?
S
22:10
Sy
okay so the oracle is closed
22:10
but the fee didnt change - why?
OK
22:14
O K
Maybe the oracle is having trouble closing like last time
S
22:14
Sy
-define(Fee, element(2, application:get_env(amoveo_core, tx_fee))).
22:14
so thats no governance
22:15
Cost = trees:dict_tree_get(governance, spend),
spend(ID, Amount, ?Fee+Cost)
spend(ID, Amount, ?Fee+Cost)
22:15
spend is, i think thats the one i changed
22:15
its lower than governance, create_acc_tx
OK
22:16
O K
I'm getting oracle winnings oid spam again
S
22:17
Sy
yep
22:18
Zack the node is spamming oracle stuff again
Z
22:23
Zack
ok, I will look into this.
22:25
uuE4CGnQiMeSFaoxcAwSPPdU1daIBXAHfGurNzmEBgM=
here is the oid you closed
here is the oid you closed
S
22:26
Sy
obviously...
Z
22:28
Zack
its weird. it is like someone keeps trying to share the oracle-winnings tx with me, but I wont accept it
22:28
so it seems like the oracle did update correctly, just Sy's money is trapped.
OK
22:28
O K
So the fee is now lower?
Z
22:29
Zack
should be, yes.
but in many places it is hard-coded, so we need to update those.
but in many places it is hard-coded, so we need to update those.
MF
22:30
Mr Flintstone
has someone successfully sent a tx with the lower fee?
22:34
I don’t think so
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
22:47
Sy
i dont think so either
22:47
the pool spends should take the fee calculated by the node but veoscan still shows the same
OK
22:48
O K
Well it's possible veoscan hardcodes it ?
S
MH
22:49
Mandel Hoff
Just get very clear on this, is this only for the spend tx fee and not the create account tx fee?
Z
22:55
Zack
the light node is hard coded. I just updated it.
Yes, only for spend, not for create account.
Yes, only for spend, not for create account.
23:03
Looks like Sy's money is not trapped. both txs were successfully included in a block.
The reason we are seeing this new error message is because some node is still running old code and is stuck at the old block height.
This node keeps trying to give us old txs from a long time ago.
The reason we are seeing this new error message is because some node is still running old code and is stuck at the old block height.
This node keeps trying to give us old txs from a long time ago.
S
23:05
Sy
blacklist it
Z
davoz216 invited davoz216
Z
23:07
Zack
blacklisting doesn't make us secure.
If someone is inadvertently attacking us, we should come up with a solution that makes us secure against this kind of attack.
If someone is inadvertently attacking us, we should come up with a solution that makes us secure against this kind of attack.
23:08
the only issue is logging. I should probably just turn off these expired print statments.
OK
23:20
O K
What precisely is the fee now? 96169 or 97169?
MF
23:39
Mr Flintstone
weird - I thought the min fee would half?
23:40
Looks like a ~30% decrease
23:40
maybe I am missing something
OK
23:40
O K
I think we all are
Z
23:56
Zack
96169 + miner fee.
I think miner fee defaults to 10, so 96200 should do it.
I think miner fee defaults to 10, so 96200 should do it.
OK
23:57
O K
Is the miner fee burned?
Z
23:57
Zack
The miner fee goes to the coinbase tx maker. the mining pool.
23:57
you can set it in the config file, and your pool will ignore any txs that don't pay you enough.
19 May 2018
MF
00:08
Mr Flintstone
wasn’t the governance oracle supposed to decrease fee by 50%?
OK
Z
00:11
Zack
I think it is in
config/sys.conf.tmpl
00:12
you can turn off channels for your node, for example
00:12
important for mining pools.
00:13
In reply to this message
it decreased it by about 1/3rd
I think when I calculated "50%" before, I was measuring upward from the small size, not downward from the big size. My mistake.
I think when I calculated "50%" before, I was measuring upward from the small size, not downward from the big size. My mistake.
00:15
I just made a small fee tx from this address: BCjdlkTKyFh7BBx4grLUGFJCedmzo4e0XT1KJtbSwq5vCJHrPltHATB+maZ+Pncjnfvt9CsCcI9Rn1vO+fPLIV4=
I will push updates now so that light nodes use the new smaller fee size.
Now the light node asks for a merkle proof of the governance state, that way you are always paying the right fee for this moment in time.
I will push updates now so that light nodes use the new smaller fee size.
Now the light node asks for a merkle proof of the governance state, that way you are always paying the right fee for this moment in time.
00:18
I also got rid of javascript mining.
00:19
http://159.89.106.253:8080/wallet.html
I updated this one first.
I updated this one first.
00:31
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
veoscan does not hard-code fees. It just parses JSON response from full node when new block is found.
Z
00:34
Zack
great
MF
00:34
did you specify 50% change?
00:35
or something around 30
S
00:35
Sy
50
00:35
It's still there
00:36
Oracle's all shows 15,50
00:36
15 is spend
MF
00:36
Mr Flintstone
so is the change then 0.5/(1+0.5)?
00:36
on downside
OK
00:38
O K
So...
Z
00:40
Zack
yeah, so only 30%
MF
00:40
Mr Flintstone
is upside 30% too? Or this is 50%
Z
00:41
Zack
2 steps up, then 2 steps down makes you finish where you started
MF
00:41
Mr Flintstone
got it
00:41
that is more intuitive
Z
00:42
Zack
I am doing a transformation that is similar to scientific notation.
from A -> B
increasing A by 1 makes B increase by about 1%.
When we say "50" in the oracle settings, that means that A could increase/decrease by 50.
from A -> B
increasing A by 1 makes B increase by about 1%.
When we say "50" in the oracle settings, that means that A could increase/decrease by 50.
G
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Z
01:25
Zack
You don't have to.
Anyone using the light node served by your full node. They can save $0.15 per tx fee if you update.
Anyone using the light node served by your full node. They can save $0.15 per tx fee if you update.
OK
02:09
O K
If the same governance oracle that just closed resulted as true, instead of false, what would the fee be now?
Z
02:17
Zack
Probably like 225000.
You can try stuff like this out with
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/trees/governance.erl#L76
You can even try it in the browser console now
You can try stuff like this out with
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/trees/governance.erl#L76
You can even try it in the browser console now
02:17
the browser console for the light node
02:19
tree_number_to_value(1000);
357315
tree_number_to_value(1050);
566475
03:14
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Hi, Zack, could you please pay me earlier. I've switched to other pool. BFv+n0PL6y0ax3CZVGQK7pY5lEOcGzIDShKN0u8hhAktJu2rxn7qO7/CXk94/MLPaDxeIgqJ4VRB3deFbsytm28=
Deleted invited Deleted Account
J
04:25
I really wish we could set our own minimum. These fees are killing us in every payout.
OK
04:25
O K
Fees went down today
IP
04:26
Current minimum reward threshold is 0.20 Veo on ap2
OK
04:27
O K
It's on the way down, so are the fees
IP
04:28
I P
yeah i mean nothing to complain really, thresholds are lowered, fees lower
J
04:28
Jordan
I'm referring to transaction fees
OK
04:28
O K
So am I
J
04:28
Jordan
I would prefer to transfer my pool earnings less often
04:29
And I was asking why I got a payout of 1.6 veo. That's lower than the minimum of 2.0 veo
Jim1 Rom invited Jim1 Rom
IP
04:29
I P
In reply to this message
minimun is 0.2, not 2.0 learn to read. It is written there, i wrote you it previously
OK
04:29
O K
In reply to this message
The solution will be to spread payouts out less frequently, so that you have a chance to accumulate more than the minimum before a payout is triggered
J
04:29
Jordan
Oh yeah I see the transaction fee is a lot lower now. Nice!
04:30
Sorry I mean .2 not 2.0 and I was laid out .16
04:30
Paid*
OK
J
04:32
Jordan
04:39
I was off by one decimal place when asking. No need to get so pissy about it @kitty123. I'm guessing transactions were accidentally processed early or something
04:47
Now the minimum on the site is lowered to .15 so it makes sense
OK
04:49
O K
In reply to this message
We're in the process of lowering them, there's no accident. The processing system is all automated based on our inputs
IP
04:52
I P
by the way, will there be a new oracle to lower fees again?
MF
04:59
Mr Flintstone
that is up to anyone
05:00
At 400 usd per veo, current fee is like 40 cents
05:00
current minimum fee*
05:01
I feel like this is still too high. especially because I’d guess veo continues to appreciate in price
IP
05:02
I P
In reply to this message
btw, what about more guides on veo oracles/channels/bets and etc? i mean for sure people can read on gitub and try all themselves but guides would not hurt
MF
IP
MF
05:04
Mr Flintstone
that is less game theoretical
05:04
and more like
05:04
“This is exactly how you do x y z”
05:05
the more descriptions of how to use amoveo the better I feel
IP
05:05
I P
In reply to this message
i think to prevent spam? smth like 0.00001 veo or so as a small but nonzero fee should be fine
05:16
Deleted Account
@kitty123 thanks for the reply! Would you happen to know how Long confirmation takes before the balance is in my wallet
IP
05:17
I P
In reply to this message
if your payment gets to a block that gets mined and not orphan it is rather fast in terms of blocks, but blocktime is 10min so... if it gets in an orphaned blocks pool will try to repay you in some time
05:18
Deleted Account
Got it! Thanks it must have been in an orphaned block then as it seems I have been waiting the whole day
IP
05:19
I P
yep sometimes it happens, if it is stuck for 2 days or so contact pool operator, he will check
05:19
Deleted Account
Great!
Z
05:38
In reply to this message
we need a fee to prevent spam.
If there are lots of pointless txs, then it will take longer to sync the blockchain, and you will need a bigger hard drive to store it.
If there are lots of pointless txs, then it will take longer to sync the blockchain, and you will need a bigger hard drive to store it.
IP
Z
06:32
Deleted Account
found this on ETH wiki "Attacks against Casper are extremely expensive; as we will see below, attacks against Casper cost as much, if not more, than the cost of buying enough mining power in a proof of work chain to permanently 51% attack it over and over again to the point of uselessness."
06:32
quite interesting. if this becomes true after launch of casper then POS will be a better choice for blockchains in terms of security
06:32
mature blockchains rather
IP
06:37
I P
Pow+pos is fine
06:37
Pure pos is a scam
06:38
Deleted Account
why?
IP
06:38
I P
You print money and sell them😊😊
06:38
How is it not a scam
06:39
Deleted Account
you print money to incentivize node operators to keep the blockchain alive and process transactions
06:39
same as POW
IP
06:41
I P
in pow people don't buy coins from you, in pow people mine with equipment
06:41
in pure pos you print all the coins and sell them to people
06:42
this is scammy as fck
06:42
switching from pow to pow+pos looks fine
06:43
Deleted Account
thats why i said a mature blockchain can move to POS when POW is anyways concentrated in the hands of a few\
06:43
yups
06:43
for a chain like ETH - even pure POS would makse sense given the rewards they are announcing for staking are actually very low
IP
06:55
Deleted Account
read this - POS is more secure for same level of investment
IP
06:56
Deleted Account
slashing
06:57
sorry i understood the question wrong perhaps - they have gone through scenarios and calculated costs of security
06:57
read it
IP
07:03
I P
nice wiki, thx. i will read in depth later
07:04
Deleted Account
yups - i personally learnt a lot by reading it.
S
07:44
Sebsebzen
Go discord
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L
09:32
Larry
So this is the vaunted Amoveo I’ve been hearing about?? Happy to be here!
09:33
Sounds like a good project. @zack is quite the maestro from what I understand
Z
09:34
Zack
In reply to this message
POW gives us security for free, as a side-effect of distributing tokens.
If we switch to POS for consensus, we would still need to distribute the same number of tokens.
If we switch to POS for consensus, we would still need to distribute the same number of tokens.
MF
OK
09:48
O K
In reply to this message
The soda machine gives me soda for free, as a side effect of putting in dollar bills
09:49
🤔
Z
10:14
Zack
In reply to this message
I have tried building proof of stake blockchains many times.
I like Jae Kwon. Right now I am typing in a laptop he gave me. He taught me many things.
His Tendermint consensus mechanism has many interesting properties.
I am also excited about Ethereum's casper protocol.
The message I want to get across about POS is this: it is not a problem worth solving. A blockchain with POS will not be better than a POW blockchain in any way.
They both need to distribute many new tokens, and as a side effect of distributing them, they already get more than enough security. No reason to pile on more security.
Paul Sztorc was the one to realize this and tell me: http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/
Maybe, in 50 years, when the market is saturated with cryptocurrency and we don't need to produce it so quickly, then POS might be important.
I like Jae Kwon. Right now I am typing in a laptop he gave me. He taught me many things.
His Tendermint consensus mechanism has many interesting properties.
I am also excited about Ethereum's casper protocol.
The message I want to get across about POS is this: it is not a problem worth solving. A blockchain with POS will not be better than a POW blockchain in any way.
They both need to distribute many new tokens, and as a side effect of distributing them, they already get more than enough security. No reason to pile on more security.
Paul Sztorc was the one to realize this and tell me: http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/
Maybe, in 50 years, when the market is saturated with cryptocurrency and we don't need to produce it so quickly, then POS might be important.
MF
10:24
Mr Flintstone
how do you feel about pos pow hybrids like Casper ffg
10:24
already enough security?
E
10:26
Enigma
Yes
10:27
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Paul's argument have been rebutted here and well I would say Zack
10:28
distribution is a problem in POS
Z
10:45
Zack
In reply to this message
This person is completely confused.
1) Paul addresses this in his blog post.
Given an asset that is expected to pay $10 per day, it has some current finite value based on the interest rate. Lets call it X.
The $10 produced per day are the amount of interest payment you get for locking up X for a day.
By locking up X, you are destroying the time-value of X.
This time-value can be captured and stored in new tokens.
2) The mechanism they describe from casper is for securely generating randomness. It is unrelated to the fact that we have to distribute new tokens, and the act of distributing tokens already gives us sufficient security.
3) Yes, this is a true fact. POS is cheaper. Still, that doesn't mean POS is useful to us right now. Since distributing the tokens already provides more than enough security, adding more security mechanisms at this point doesn't make sense. It just creates more attack surface.
1) Paul addresses this in his blog post.
Given an asset that is expected to pay $10 per day, it has some current finite value based on the interest rate. Lets call it X.
The $10 produced per day are the amount of interest payment you get for locking up X for a day.
By locking up X, you are destroying the time-value of X.
This time-value can be captured and stored in new tokens.
2) The mechanism they describe from casper is for securely generating randomness. It is unrelated to the fact that we have to distribute new tokens, and the act of distributing tokens already gives us sufficient security.
3) Yes, this is a true fact. POS is cheaper. Still, that doesn't mean POS is useful to us right now. Since distributing the tokens already provides more than enough security, adding more security mechanisms at this point doesn't make sense. It just creates more attack surface.
13:17
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
i have to go over your arguments and Paul's blog again. But I agree with you that for Amoveo POW is the right approach for now given that there's no better way to achieve wide distribution
13:55
Deleted Account
alright so i went over both sides of the argument again but i have to read and understand more to make up my mind. The MC=MR part is assumed given in most free market economic equilibriums. but the POS blog is stating that it's an exception to this rule! maybe i have to find an economist to talk to
Deleted invited Deleted Account
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14:05
Deleted Account
14:05
Zack - this is the part i am diagreeing with from Paul's blog. case in point rent seeking by bitmain.
14:07
most time perfect competition is a mirage. P2P by definition isnt establishing a perfectly competitive market.
14:08
another example is that today each bitcoin takes around 4K USD to mine but is priced at 2X and have been there for a while or more
Z
14:14
Zack
Yes, proof of work by hash function is not perfect.
But, we wouldn't want all the miners to be exactly equally profitable either.
If that were the case, then a small difficulty adjustment could cause all of them to turn off their miners simultaneously.
But, we wouldn't want all the miners to be exactly equally profitable either.
If that were the case, then a small difficulty adjustment could cause all of them to turn off their miners simultaneously.
14:18
Are you looking for an alternative way to distribute tokens besides proof of work?
What is your point?
What is your point?
IP
14:43
I P
In reply to this message
well, it is not that simple. 4k usd is just for electricity costs with rather cheap electricity
14:43
but you also need to count in hardware costs because hardware becomes obsolete, breaks down and etc
14:47
with 10 cents per kwh (which is not expensive, many people pay 20) you get 4$ revenue per day at current diff and price. s9 miner will cost you 1200$ . which means you breakeven in 300 days. this miner will wear out in like 2 years or so, it looks like a good deal, right?
14:48
but hashrate and diff goes up and up and up. If btc price will not go up- you will never break even
14:51
but there are people out there who mine btc not to just make fiat profits but to convert their money from fiat to btc through buying miners and hodling btc. And this btc is 'clean' y.e. freshly minted so it has its own positives
Deleted invited Deleted Account
OS
16:58
Oleksandr Sorokin
16:58
Tryin to spend money, but nothing happens? Any ideas? Thank you
A
OS
17:24
Oleksandr Sorokin
Tried 0.1 - the same
G
17:56
Gonzalo
Other than update the full node, is there anything else I have to do in order to reduce the tx fee?
O
18:27
Oliver
not reading through all of this, but have a question. is there a exchange yet where I can buy Veo?
18:34
Deleted Account
No, Zack is working on an exchange. For now just OTC in Discord
O
18:43
Oliver
why not list it on some minor exchange, but build an own exchange (nobody outside of the community knows)?
IP
18:44
I P
In reply to this message
node is custom design so it will take a lot of effort from small exchange to integrate veo
Ennai D. invited Ennai D.
19:03
Deleted Account
They will know. Zack is a Superstar. 😁
O
19:03
Oliver
thanks
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20 May 2018
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04:34
Deleted Account
How much creating oracle cost?
MF
04:48
Mr Flintstone
a little more than 0.3 veo
g
05:02
gh0stOo
whats the price aktually for veo ?
OK
05:03
O K
$300 or more
MF
05:09
Mr Flintstone
I feel like u have to pay 400 now
OK
05:09
O K
Definitely possible
g
05:35
gh0stOo
where can i sell my mined veo ? and whats the planed exchanges for trading veo ?
IP
05:36
you need to mine and hodl and use it
Michael Sparks invited Michael Sparks
g
05:39
gh0stOo
use it for what ? what iis the idea behind this coin and what makes this project unic ?
IP
05:40
I P
In reply to this message
for transacting on-chain, and off-chain in channels, for oracles and bets. I mean you've mined veo and want to sell it but don't really know what it is
g
05:42
gh0stOo
yes thats true. Is there a explanaition video or somethink where i can read about it ?
IP
S
Z
05:46
Zack
maybe you did a create account tx?
g
05:47
gh0stOo
what makes veo diferent to the competitors ?
Z
S
05:49
Sy
Zack its a bit more than one transaction and i called api.erl spend
http://veoscan.io/block/H7RoQmF%252FV8F6r4ZbbxeUte5wmeRZ1XBA8IYJDdRWR%252FA%253D
http://veoscan.io/block/H7RoQmF%252FV8F6r4ZbbxeUte5wmeRZ1XBA8IYJDdRWR%252FA%253D
05:50
spend != create account tx as shown in the explorer
05:50
with spend the node is setting the fee, i did some payouts today with api:spend - those had low fee but not the automated spend posts vs api
IP
05:51
I P
In reply to this message
veo is fare without ico bullshit and it works, though there are some minor hiccups here and there. aeternity- ico with 1bln cap currently and does not work.... figure yourself why you want to mine and keep veo
g
S
OK
06:31
O K
Zack can I push headers to catweed's node manually somehow https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/sync.erl#L379
Z
06:31
Zack
firE+J0/yBeBKiZ96oy66r662rvOcP9TwXSxfHAGoSQ=
Someone made an oracle to lower the dev reward
Someone made an oracle to lower the dev reward
OK
06:35
O K
Is that a snarky stab at my weak erlang skills 😆
06:36
"I dunno, can you?"
IP
Z
06:40
Zack
In reply to this message
I could have sworn we had code for what you are asking for, but I just looked for it and could not find.
Maybe I deleted it because it was unused.
Maybe I deleted it because it was unused.
OK
06:40
O K
Well I'm looking something like this
06:40
sync:sync_peer2({185,117,73,74},22699,22699,22710, )
06:40
Calling it manually and inputting the arguments?
Z
06:41
Zack
22699 22699? are those block heights?
OK
06:41
O K
Yes
Z
06:41
Zack
how about a range of headers?
06:41
1000, 1999
OK
Z
06:42
Zack
all the headers from 1000 to 1999.
a total of 1000 headers.
a total of 1000 headers.
06:44
there must be code for giving headers, that is one step of syncing
OK
06:44
O K
I was just filling in this
sync_peer2(Peer, TopCommonHeader, TheirBlockHeight, MyBlockHeight, TheirTopHeader)
06:46
"undefined function" error
06:47
oh
Z
06:47
Zack
I think I found it.
sync:push_new_block(block:top()).
06:47
it got rewritten a bunch of times, so now function names don't make sense
06:48
{headers, [Header, Header...]}
is the syntax of the JSON object being sent to the external api
is the syntax of the JSON object being sent to the external api
06:49
here is where the external api is accepting headers
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_http/src/ext_handler.erl#L23
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_http/src/ext_handler.erl#L23
06:53
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Thank you, unfortunately I'm going out without my laptop. Will be back within a day...
IP
Z
07:00
Zack
If people keep betting to lower my pay, then I will probably do a hard update to force my pay to stay unchanged.
So Amoveo would split into Mutiny-veo and Classical-Amoveo
So Amoveo would split into Mutiny-veo and Classical-Amoveo
IP
OK
07:03
O K
In reply to this message
Ultimately it will depend on nakamoto consensus anyway, why do you care how people bet?
07:04
Shouldn't you say if your pay is actually lowered?
Z
07:04
Zack
In reply to this message
Nakamoto consensus is expensive.
Betting covers the cost and even makes it profitable.
Defenders make a profit.
Betting covers the cost and even makes it profitable.
Defenders make a profit.
IP
07:11
I P
how do i know how much veo people bet for true and false on that oracle?
OK
07:11
O K
In reply to this message
If I edit
sync.erl to export sync_peer2 and rebulid, I should be able to call sync:sync_peer2({185,117,73,74},22699,22699,22710,22699). right?
Z
07:22
Zack
In reply to this message
Good question.
unfortunately, this is a complicated process now.
The oracle has an order book. You would have to look up each order in the book and sum them up.
I bet 0.1 veo and successfully changed the outcome from false to bad_question. So there is very little money in the oracle now.
unfortunately, this is a complicated process now.
The oracle has an order book. You would have to look up each order in the book and sum them up.
I bet 0.1 veo and successfully changed the outcome from false to bad_question. So there is very little money in the oracle now.
07:23
firE+J0/yBeBKiZ96oy66r662rvOcP9TwXSxfHAGoSQ=
The outcome should be changed, if you look it up in the light node.
The outcome should be changed, if you look it up in the light node.
OK
07:24
O K
That doesn't close for some time, it will make it easier to see how people are betting if we can get veoscan back up
IP
07:25
I P
yeah, now i see that outcome has changed. cool, so people who support the current dev fee should just bet on bad question?
07:26
and if people want to reduce it by a third- they need to bet on true?
07:26
i mean this oracle could be kind of fun
OK
IP
07:28
I P
Ah, so bet on false to reduce it then.
OK
07:28
Maybe we can get veoscan synced up so it will be easier to see people betting
IP
07:28
I P
Gentleman, choose your fate and make bets😊👍😘
AS
Z
OK
AS
07:36
Aizen Sou
Will bet against that shit with all my might, fuck them.
IP
07:37
I P
In reply to this message
Bet false to lower dev reward, bet bad_question to keep current, bet true to raise dev fee
AS
07:38
Aizen Sou
We need a better GUI for betting and such things
IP
Z
07:38
Zack
In reply to this message
yes, but I think the function that you actually want to use is sync:push_new_block/1
AS
IP
OK
07:40
O K
In reply to this message
I was looking at this, but I don't understand how to 'target' catweed's node?
S
07:40
Sonny
Do bets on "Bad question" win anything?
AS
07:41
Aizen Sou
Unfortunately i don't have that much VEO. It's my goal
MF
07:42
Mr Flintstone
I feel like there is consensus around bad question
Z
07:42
Zack
In reply to this message
yes, good point.
I think we should just use
I think we should just use
talker:talk({headers, [H1, H2...]}, {IP, Port}).
OK
IP
Z
OK
07:43
Any bet for true or false?
IP
07:43
I P
Yep
MF
07:43
Mr Flintstone
I don’t think ppl want to lower or raise it
07:43
we will see
OK
07:43
O K
You match a true/false bet? And then it will not be able to be matched by its opposite?
MF
07:43
Mr Flintstone
bad question can match either true or false
07:43
true can match bad question or false
07:43
Etc
AS
07:43
Aizen Sou
I will create an oracle on Monday to lower the block reward and block time, but not dev reward.
Z
07:44
Zack
In reply to this message
there are 3 outcomes,
true, false, or bad_question.
From the oracle's perspective they are nearly symmetric.
The only difference is that if the order book is almost empty, it goes with bad_question instead of true/false.
true, false, or bad_question.
From the oracle's perspective they are nearly symmetric.
The only difference is that if the order book is almost empty, it goes with bad_question instead of true/false.
AS
07:44
Aizen Sou
How long do we have for a betting period, Zack ?
IP
07:44
I P
In reply to this message
Well why not ?clearly there are people who want to lower, but are they willing to bet their money on it?
AS
07:45
Aizen Sou
If you lose you will lose all the money which was bet on it, Zack ?
OK
07:45
O K
In reply to this message
The only difference is that if the order book is almost empty, it goes with bad_question instead of true/false. Can you expound on this?
MF
IP
MF
07:46
Mr Flintstone
obviously some individuals want to lower it
OK
07:46
O K
In reply to this message
These are also bad qusetions probably. Let's lower the fees again. I actually tried to make this about 10 hours ago, but failed. It gave me an oracle ID, but it was never included in a block.
Z
07:47
Zack
In reply to this message
1000 blocks, but every time the oracle's type changes, then the timer starts over.
Right now it is type "bad_question".
Right now it is type "bad_question".
S
Z
07:47
Zack
In reply to this message
You lose your money if you lose the bet yes.
If the blockchain forks, it is possible to win the bet on one side of the fork, and lose the bet on the other.
If the blockchain forks, it is possible to win the bet on one side of the fork, and lose the bet on the other.
IP
Z
07:48
Zack
In reply to this message
I think it is the governance variable oracle_initial_liquidity, or 1/2 that.
OK
07:50
O K
talker:talk({headers, [22700]}, {{185,117,73,74},8080}). returns bad_peer
07:54
In reply to this message
Zack Do you think going back to exporting the other function might work, or another suggestion?
Z
07:55
Zack
instead of [22700], that should be a list of headers.
OK
07:55
O K
Well I understand, but
Z
07:55
Zack
although, I would expect a different error than
bad_peer
OK
07:55
O K
If I can't do one, how can I do many?
07:56
Yeah, I was just sparing myself a few minutes, that's all
Z
07:56
Zack
block:block_to_header(block:get_by_height(22700)).
07:56
something like this I think
07:57
or headers:top_with_block()
OK
07:57
O K
I see
07:58
Like this?
talker:talk({headers, [block:block_to_header(block:get_by_height(22700))]}, {{185,117,73,74},8080}).
07:58
Still
bad_peer
Z
07:58
Zack
maybe that node isn't working?
OK
07:58
O K
Well it's blacklisted I'm sure
07:58
I'm trying to get it caught up
07:59
Or do you mean my node?
Z
OK
07:59
O K
That would do it
07:59
🤦♂️
08:00
This one went offline within 2 blocks of catweed's http://207.96.84.163:8080/explorer.html
08:01
Oh well
AS
08:22
Aizen Sou
Zack i think veoex who made the bet is from AE. You still have a lot of enemies there.
Z
08:23
Zack
I am glad veoex made the bet. It is good to test stuff like this out.
AS
08:24
Aizen Sou
Someone with better writing skills should help you writing documents for all these stuffs from Amoveo which u built
Z
08:24
Zack
only 4 people have launched oracles before, we need more testing
AS
08:25
Aizen Sou
I didn't see any variable for lowering the oracle creation fee
08:25
Or did i miss it ?
IP
08:29
I P
In reply to this message
Yeah we can bet on it. I say we must bet on it. Dont know how to do it though
Z
08:31
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/governance.md
oracle_initial_liquidity
oracle_initial_liquidity
AS
08:32
Aizen Sou
Thanks zack I really missed that. Will create an oracle to lower it too
08:32
Create lower barrier for people to participate more in oracle
Z
08:33
Zack
You will probably lose your money if you do that.
Other people are talking about raising the oracle initial liquidity.
Other people are talking about raising the oracle initial liquidity.
AS
08:33
Aizen Sou
😅
Z
08:33
Zack
so we will get less troll-oracles.
IP
AS
08:34
Aizen Sou
I missed that discussion
IP
Z
08:34
Zack
In reply to this message
no. the oracle and governance mechanism require running a full node for now.
AS
IP
AS
08:36
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
It's possible to create a web interface to the full node, Zack ?
Z
08:37
the oracle can only be used from the terminal for now.
MF
08:39
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
if we separate question from governance, we can have a higher barrier for governance oracle while keeping question at 0
08:39
barrier being initial liquidity
AS
08:41
Aizen Sou
Could we separate the oracle type, e.g.? Like high order oracle for changing fundamental outcome of core Amoveo (block time, reward, liquidity etc.) and low order oracle for funny stuffs ?
08:42
Then high price for high order oracle and low price for low order oracle. With that u could have a lot of people participate in the oracle without worrying of troll-oracles. Zack ?
IP
AS
OK
08:46
O K
Won't people who open "troll oracles" just be giving away their money?
08:46
Or at least the people who particpate in them
Z
08:49
Zack
In reply to this message
the people who open the troll oracles are giving away money. The people who participate in it are getting free money from the troll.
OK
08:50
O K
I mean if there is no fee to open the oracle, and the consensus is well known, the opening of the oracle seems less important than the "troll bet" in the oracle, in which case, the troll better is giving away their money to the other participants who know that there is consensus
AS
08:51
Aizen Sou
Exactly
Z
09:10
Zack
In reply to this message
If there is no fee, then it isn't worth our time to look it up. There is no profit opportunity. So they could close it at the wrong state without us noticing.
OK
09:12
O K
In reply to this message
I disagree, the profit opportunity is in the troll bet. And soon, it won't be hard to look up anyway.
Z
09:20
Zack
In reply to this message
yes, maybe instead of my current mechanism for injecting initial liquidity, maybe it would have been better to force the first participant to make the first bet above some minimum size. So they can choose what state the oracle starts in.
OK
09:21
O K
That's a good idea
Z
09:23
Zack
Although the mechanism we are using now might be wasting some funds by making oracles more expensive, I am doing it now for security reasons.
See, I am worried a miner would make an oracle in the new format, and would also include a bet to push us down to 0 open orders in the order book.
So there would actually be no incentive to participate.
The way oracle_initial_liquidity works now, if the oracle is in the wrong state, then there is always a big reward for moving it to the correct state.
See, I am worried a miner would make an oracle in the new format, and would also include a bet to push us down to 0 open orders in the order book.
So there would actually be no incentive to participate.
The way oracle_initial_liquidity works now, if the oracle is in the wrong state, then there is always a big reward for moving it to the correct state.
Demi Yilmaz invited Demi Yilmaz
B
11:14
Ben
Zack, would the minimum size of the participants first bet be deterministic or arbitrary? I like the idea of allowing them to choose a minimum first bet => 0+epsilon
11:16
if a miner created an oracle in the new format, how can they make a bet that pushes the open orders down to 0?
11:22
Another thought occured to me that it may not “always” need to be a cost to create a new oracle, eg. oracle-to-orcacle transforms.
12:22
Deleted Account
AE haven't announced its mainnet launch yet. So probably a delay is certain? @zack
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
瓜哥 invited 瓜哥
Wang Lion invited Wang Lion
WL
17:07
Wang Lion
wts amoveo
17:08
who want to buy？
IP
WL
17:09
Wang Lion
thank you
17:46
Deleted Account
Harvey Weinstein example isnt 100% right. You cant Let the Blockchain decide which actor will Play in which role. Because there are a lot more instances which depends on human decisions, who is playing a role.
17:48
Its always like this. Even if there are better actors with whom you will make more money. You will also like to let newer actors take the place of a role because of different reasons
A
17:48
Aries
troll oracles are a horrible Idea
17:48
Deleted Account
And not because abuse reasons
IP
17:50
I P
In reply to this message
well, right now people need to pay 0.3 veo to open such troll orcles, so they loose money=)
17:54
Deleted Account
No troll. I made oracle that felt right to me. Looks like there is no consensus for my view point.
IP
17:55
sorry that i assumed wrong
17:56
Deleted Account
No problem. Words should mean keds anyway when possibilty to put money where mouth is.
17:56
Less
IP
17:57
I P
actually, i don't think that you are that wrong, i mean if we can change governance variables - people can try to change not only minimum TX fee but other parameters. I think many people just don't understand how to do it
17:58
Deleted Account
Yeah definetly not userfriendly.
17:59
And reliance on single genius dev to do everything is not good
IP
17:59
I P
and even if people support your oracle i think many of them are kind of afraid to bet false on that oracle in order to lower Zacks reward
18:00
Deleted Account
Yes zack has such strong position and kinda deservedly
IP
18:01
I P
i just hope that using oracles and making bets would become easier for an average joe
18:03
In reply to this message
While it is true it took a lot of time for bitcoin dev community to grow. I hope it will work faster with veo
18:03
Deleted Account
Agreed.
B
18:21
Ben
We are not relying on a single genius dev to do everything. We are forming a community around him, and he can eventually become an edge node in that community once we learn enough to add more value on the coding front. Right now, many of us are just perusing the github and familiarizing ourselves w/ the codebase.
18:58
Deleted Account
Yea I just learned how to do oracle. Exciting times!
S
18:59
Sy
Zack if you dont want your dev fee changed, why did you put it into governance variables to begin with?
if you dont mind you wouldnt want to hard fork, if you do mind, remove it or maybe lock it until your dev reward is unlocked...
if you dont mind you wouldnt want to hard fork, if you do mind, remove it or maybe lock it until your dev reward is unlocked...
Angelos | Coinomi Wallet (I will never PM you first) invited Angelos | Coinomi Wallet (I will never PM you first)
A
20:30
Angelos | Coinomi Wallet (I will never PM you first)
hi everyone, glad to be here. is there an amoveo-1 channel? :)
20:31
Deleted Account
This is the Main channel
20:32
Zack somehow lost Moderation on the first one 😁
A
20:32
Angelos | Coinomi Wallet (I will never PM you first)
ok :) yea happens :)
20:32
Deleted Account
But yea, welcome :)
20:35
Have fun and feel free to ask any question
Z
20:40
Zack
In reply to this message
I do want the dev fee set to zero eventually.
But first we need a couple other things.
1)We need a smart contract specialized for raising funds. That way I can get paid for software development.
2)We need there to be other people capable of doing what I do.
But first we need a couple other things.
1)We need a smart contract specialized for raising funds. That way I can get paid for software development.
2)We need there to be other people capable of doing what I do.
I
20:46
that would be awesome
20:46
hehe
MF
20:54
Mr Flintstone
this dev reward should in theory attract talented people who want to get paid
20:54
provided amoveo is a going concern obvs
20:55
slash dominant assurance contracts
MF
21:26
Mr Flintstone
do you dislike the light wallet
OK
S
22:16
Sebsebzen
Yeah the dev reward should be unchangeable for first 6 months
22:16
Ideally
22:21
veoscan got unsynced because it does not properly process orphan blocks. This problem still persists, but I will fix it within a day or two. Until then it might get unsynced again.
MF
22:21
Mr Flintstone
this oracle is still open
this is a governance oracle
governance variable: 2
governance amount: 50
starts: 22684
current type: undefined
done timer: 23714
this is a governance oracle
governance variable: 2
governance amount: 50
starts: 22684
current type: undefined
done timer: 23714
22:21
Zack current type: undefined => bad question ?
Z
22:22
Zack
yes, I think I programmed that interface wrong. it is saying "undefined" instead of "bad-question"
IP
22:36
I P
In reply to this message
so how can we view the current bets status on that oracle? i mean bets on true, bets on false and bets on bad_question? is there a way to do it through veoscan?
S
22:42
catweed adress overview doesnt work yet
MF
22:50
it would be cool if the oracle lookup from zacks light wallet would tell us that, but not sure how hard that would be to code
S
22:51
Sy
you cant get an overview yet, only from the node
22:57
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Currently veoscan does not support it. But I want to implement the bets status feature after fixing other issues.
23:01
In fact, the market section of veoscan is not working properly because it does not find existing oracles. I have to first fix that.
G
23:13
😁
21 May 2018
00:16
Deleted Account
Someone is currently mining on http://amoveo.noncense.tech with an incorrect public key ending in "TdUdmTd46E=.itsme". I will not be able to pay you out with that public key unfortunately
Z
IP
MF
02:00
Mr Flintstone
ap2
Ivitho invited Ivitho
L
S
03:13
Sy
accurate
03:13
although its theoreticly accurate, real values are probably lower depending on pool luck, share luck and invalids
L
03:15
Thanks Sy
S
03:15
Sy
you're welcome
MF
03:38
Mr Flintstone
how do people feel about lowering tx fee again with the maximum change?
03:38
might submit a governance oracle
S
03:40
Sy
i think O K already did / tried that
Crni invited Crni
A
03:41
Al
Is blockreward variable and can be change via oracle?
IP
A
IP
03:49
I P
In reply to this message
veo is like the 2nd coolest blockchain i ever saw. 1st coolest is eth where you can sell a cryptokittie for 100k usd and rape eth network with this one 'dapp'
A
IP
03:53
man its hard to deal with those kitties
A
03:54
Al
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
🎉, 58.5 KB
J
IP
03:59
I P
In reply to this message
to be honet with you i'm not quite sure if eth is going to pull through
03:59
they work on a lot of stuff but nothing gets finished. channels? no. sharding? no. consensus update? no
MF
04:28
Mr Flintstone
we can bet about this
04:29
what specific fate do you see befalling eth
04:29
we could bet on something like, Casper cbc isn’t on mainnet by block x
IP
04:29
I P
the funniest part is that eth fate depends mostly not on eth itself but other blockchains
04:30
i mean in terms of overall success. eth has a lot of problems and nothing gets solved really but its rivals are either worse or testnet
04:36
i would rather bet on crypto prices. But we need more people willing to participate.
MF
04:40
Mr Flintstone
what price and timeframe for eth
04:40
I’ll be the other side
IP
04:44
I P
In reply to this message
don't know man, i need to learn better to be able to place a bet. I'm more into bitcoin price bets. i would be happy if we could find at least 10 people who would like to participate in that
JS
IP
04:58
I P
In reply to this message
i don't know if we could make a question in this shape for an oracle- "what price for btc do we see first- 14k or 5k" i still need to refine the numbers though
MF
05:00
Mr Flintstone
the question would be something along the lines of “we see 14k before 5k”
05:00
but, That would resolve to bad question if neither happened?
IP
05:01
I P
In reply to this message
yes! but would you bet on bad question? we clearly will see either 5k or 14k in the future
MF
05:03
Mr Flintstone
it depends on the price
IP
MF
05:03
Mr Flintstone
but it could stay in the range in a finite time period
05:04
like the oracle start block + finalization period
Deleted joined group by link from Group
J
07:07
Jim
Turned on caching for mveo.net to further improve performance, let me know if it doesn’t update or something
Z
othe joined group by link from Group
t t invited t t
Ray Wasatch invited Ray Wasatch
15:25
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
ETH is going into uncharted waters and always by taking the hard way out when those are the right ways. expect delays and conservatism - but i would bet a significant amount on them winning in the long term (one winner among many). the amount of research they come up with alone is astounding
15:30
I see Zack 's name in the attribution list
Deleted invited Deleted Account
zeThrouzz invited zeThrouzz
z
17:28
what is your token distribution?
B
17:34
Ben
144 Blocks Day with 1 VEO Block Reward + 0.2 Veo for DEV
17:34
currently ca. 28K Veo Supply
17:34
Supply is not limited
IP
B
17:35
Ben
it can, but only in a certain Range per Oracle
B
18:22
Branc
wts 2 veo, pm me.
Arg invited Arg
A
20:02
Arg
HI
MF
20:05
Mr Flintstone
Hi
20:16
Deleted Account
Hi
EP
20:18
http is it safe?
IP
20:18
I P
In reply to this message
you don't have to trust any of the current light wallets. you can run your own node and use it
EP
20:19
Evans Pan
is it very difficult to change to https?
20:20
own nodes is not practical for most of the users
IP
OK
20:23
O K
I don't think you need to run a node to run the wallet.html locally to sign tx, then send to a trusted node to broadcast
20:23
When loading your keys on the light wallet, they are only loaded locally, so you'd be at risk only if the person running the wallet had changed the javascript, or a MITM attack
20:24
To use https, I believe a domain name is required
EP
20:25
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
I agree with you. But for new comer or non tech guys, its still too much hassel to do.
IP
EP
20:28
Evans Pan
cost 20 usd to do it...........
IP
Arend invited Arend
EP
IP
20:30
I P
In reply to this message
well i mean as a member of the community you can setup a node with domain and cert😉
EP
20:34
I am sure Zack will say: just do it........then we can improve it.
S
20:45
Sy
at what block does the dev reward unlock again? 80k ish?
EP
20:47
Evans Pan
you started to worry about the dump?
S
20:52
Sy
na
g
20:53
goons
Haha dump ? Dump otc ?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
IP
21:02
I P
well it will take a lot of time to get to block 80k... and i don't think that Zack will dump his reward as clearly he wants a bright future, i mean he is the one who spent a lot of time and effort thinking through and coding veo
Z
EP
21:06
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
I know, for the time being, https is still better. If someone hack the light wallet, the community will suffer.
Z
21:06
Zack
In reply to this message
48000 I think. We are almost half way.
My monthly expenses are around $500.
I am not planning on changing my lifestyle.
I want to invest my Veo in smart contracts on amoveo.
My monthly expenses are around $500.
I am not planning on changing my lifestyle.
I want to invest my Veo in smart contracts on amoveo.
L
21:09
Larry
Supply is unlimited?
IP
21:10
I P
it is but community can change block rewards through oracles
21:12
it will take 400 years to mine 21 mil veo like bitcoin... given the current block reward
S
21:15
FYI, here's corporate identity proposal
L
Deleted invited Deleted Account
K
22:17
Kale
i have to say zack need a team to continue dev veo
N
22:20
NM$L
aye
22:20
when moon?
K
22:20
Kale
Hello
22:21
who is veoscan.io's holder,could u add aaron's pool to your website,thanks?
MF
22:42
Mr Flintstone
bids for 500 usd in discord... keep the hands strong boys
22:42
and girls
N
22:42
NM$L
wow
22:42
I want to sell my all 300veo
22:42
if 500usd
MF
22:43
Mr Flintstone
this is literally the opposite of strong hands
22:43
lol
[
22:46
[Riki]
thats strong wallets
L
MF
23:04
Mr Flintstone
50-500 veo
I
23:08
Or when there is a large sell wall
MF
23:09
Mr Flintstone
I guess everyone has their own definition
L
23:12
Larry
Regardless of how you’d like to characterize it, the OTC trading is getting out of hand. VEO has more than doubled in a few weeks. It’s better to get this thing trading somewhere with liquidity before people get really burned. Potential for bad optics.
[
23:13
[Riki]
VEO is at 8mn mktcap. having zack on board, i see no overvaluation
I
23:15
Iridescence
In reply to this message
Or maybe it's the market being efficient by recognizing that VEO should have larger market cap. Remember, VEO is still not that well-marketed yet
23:16
In fact, if VEO gets a public exchange now, I would guess that it does more than another doubling
L
I
23:21
Iridescence
In reply to this message
It slows down price discovery due to additional risk, but price discovery is still happening nonetheless
MF
23:27
Mr Flintstone
veo is closer to 15mn market cap at 500 usd per veo
23:27
otc is still a marketplace, it’s just less efficient than single order book trading
23:28
PSA: there’s another oracle out to decrease tx fees by another 30% or so
23:28
which is good
L
A
23:40
Al
guys, got around 15 veo for sale, pm if you need them
23:45
Deleted Account
How much
E
23:46
Enigma
why this coin is so expensive lol
OK
23:46
O K
Supply, demand
DY
23:52
Demi Yilmaz
WTB Veo any amount for $350
I
23:55
Iridescence
In reply to this message
You can think of it in mVEO instead of VEO and price will become 1000x cheaper.
S
23:59
Sebsebzen
Btw, I can also make a version just with VEO
23:59
Drop the Amo part
22 May 2018
S
00:00
Sebsebzen
Logo and font stays the same
Matvii Sivoraksha invited Matvii Sivoraksha
Deleted invited Deleted Account
02:21
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Regarding this, we are transfering your hashrate to your correct address. You hashrate will never go to waste.
MF
02:29
Mr Flintstone
700 telegram members
IP
S
03:05
Ave Zack? Our Caesar?
stfchamp invited stfchamp
CB
03:38
CeloStarter Bandits
blabla
B
04:57
Branc
wts 2 veo
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted joined group by link from Group
T
10:37
Tweety
Any one know what Veo is selling at?
L
T
10:40
Tweety
Thanks
loophe lau invited loophe lau
11:02
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Is it Amoveo Mining Pool CN? I added just now.
http://veoscan.io/
http://veoscan.io/
DY
11:10
Demi Yilmaz
WTB and amount for $350 PM
Deleted invited Deleted Account
K
Группа лиц invited Группа лиц
Deleted invited Deleted Account
12:17
Deleted Account
where can I buy ove
12:17
any exchange?
K
12:22
Kale
discord
Deleted invited Deleted Account
C1
12:52
CARS 10
Can anybody tell me how I can download all transactions of a wallet in a csv file? At veoscan.io i have only a page view 🙁. It were great if somebody could help... cheers
K
13:19
Kale
N
K
13:44
Kale
i will give to u
13:45
send me your address in wechat
13:46
Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
DY
14:02
Demi Yilmaz
WTB any amount VEO for $350 PM
B
14:15
Ben
good luck ;)
S
14:20
Sy
😂
G
14:23
Ghadras
WTB $351
S
N
16:07
Nikita
16:08
Could someone tell me what mean Txs Pending Confirmation?
IP
N
16:09
Nikita
Will it confirm in future?
IP
16:10
I P
well in my experience it gets fine, just need to wait
N
16:10
Nikita
Last time when i saw it amount didn't
IP
16:10
I P
got unlucky and tx was included in a block which got orphaned
it will retry in some blocks
it will retry in some blocks
N
16:11
Nikita
Nikita:
Last time when i saw it amount didn't get in my balance
Last time when i saw it amount didn't get in my balance
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
17:30
Topab
Where can I see hash rate and difficult. Remember there was a link to it can't find it
S
17:51
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Here's beta version of veoscan json API.
Usage:
http://veoscan.io/api/v0/account/<URL_ENCODED_ACCOUNT_PUBKEY>/txs?page=<PAGE>&per_page=<PER_PAGE>&block_start=<BLOCK_START>&block_end=<BLOCK_END>
Default PAGE: 1
Default PER_PAGE: 100
Maximum PER_PAGE: 1000
Default BLOCK_START: 1
Default BLOCK_END: current top height
Example:
curl "http://veoscan.io/api/v0/account/BOPvbgrso8GakBw2Xxkc1A2lt0OiKg%252FJqjBuCPfP0bTI%252FdjsM9lgp%252F8ZMmJgPs%252FaDlxQL2dT%252BPYfEywsaRthrmE%253D/txs"
Usage:
http://veoscan.io/api/v0/account/<URL_ENCODED_ACCOUNT_PUBKEY>/txs?page=<PAGE>&per_page=<PER_PAGE>&block_start=<BLOCK_START>&block_end=<BLOCK_END>
Default PAGE: 1
Default PER_PAGE: 100
Maximum PER_PAGE: 1000
Default BLOCK_START: 1
Default BLOCK_END: current top height
Example:
curl "http://veoscan.io/api/v0/account/BOPvbgrso8GakBw2Xxkc1A2lt0OiKg%252FJqjBuCPfP0bTI%252FdjsM9lgp%252F8ZMmJgPs%252FaDlxQL2dT%252BPYfEywsaRthrmE%253D/txs"
S
17:51
Sy
ouch 16.5k+ incoming
17:52
👍
17:52
Deleted Account
Please note that veoscan is still in development. Data descrepancy with full nodes can happen.
G
19:08
Gonzalo
very nice 👍
T
L
S
19:45
Sy
yep every 2000
L
19:45
Larry
Mining profitability dropping before I can secure the miners lol
19:46
Wen ASICS?!? 😝
IP
19:46
I P
In reply to this message
it is good that difficulty is over the roof means more and more people join
19:47
now we just need them to actually join the community, not just mining
ŽM
19:48
Živojin Mirić
top priority is gifmaking department!
L
19:48
Larry
Finally. Something I can contribute
ŽM
19:49
Živojin Mirić
VEO is not ready for influx of cryptotards yet, I'm joking
19:49
maybe start production but don't release in public
S
19:56
Sy
i just noticed...this chat is missing something
19:57
not a single when lambo yet xD
MF
19:57
Mr Flintstone
when binance
S
19:57
Sy
no exchange in the near future imho
19:57
wallet is way to different for that
IP
L
[
20:17
[Riki]
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
✌, 24.2 KB
MF
20:23
Mr Flintstone
would rather not be added to a bunch of shitcoin exchanges so cool with no exchange for now
S
20:24
Sy
binance is a shitcoin exchange?
OK
20:26
O K
funds safe
MF
20:27
Mr Flintstone
maybe we have different definitions of shitcoins
20:27
mine is: any coin that I do not own, especially if it appreciates in value
20:27
lol
OK
20:27
O K
lol
MF
20:28
Mr Flintstone
psa for us citizens you need to file foreign bank account disclosure by mid October
20:28
if you ever had more than 10k usd on binance
20:28
or any non us crypto exchange
20:29
It’s called FBAR
20:29
penalties for non compliance are unreal
20:29
intentional non compliance*
C
20:30
CryptoMach
C
CryptoMach 28.03.2018 09:07:54
Voice message
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
00:03, 9.6 KB
MF
20:31
Mr Flintstone
look up FBAR reporting for crypto
L
20:32
Larry
In reply to this message
US had determined a binance account full of crypto is a foreign back account
20:32
Ha
MF
20:32
Mr Flintstone
I think it’s filed with FinCEN
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
22:03
Mr Flintstone
250 seconds per block...
Deleted invited Deleted Account
22:18
Deleted Account
heyy
22:18
is there any website ?
A
22:22
Deleted Account
exchanges or any blogs
L
22:28
Larry
pre-sale?
22:30
Deleted Account
what is the amoveos differencies from other platforms ?
IP
22:30
I P
In reply to this message
yep it's on bithumb and coming to binance, i've already bought Lamborghini Huracán with my masternode payouts. after that sold a node and bought tickets to the moon
22:31
In reply to this message
if you really want to understand you should read info on github. You can start with this https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/progress_reports/May_2018.md and move to more technical stuff
A
OK
L
22:34
Larry
I appreciate the lack of exchange talk/desire here
IP
S
22:38
that made me laugh
IP
Z
22:40
Zack
For each tx made, Amoveo consumes about 10 gallons of gas worth of energy.
S
22:40
Sy
👍
CB
22:40
CeloStarter Bandits
sounds terrible...
ŽM
22:40
Živojin Mirić
ok guys, now seriously....
[
22:41
[Riki]
WTS 1 tx for 10 gallons of gas, only serious offers
ŽM
22:41
Živojin Mirić
WHEN BITTREX?
CB
22:41
CeloStarter Bandits
listing at 12 PM
22:41
today
22:41
tjen binance at 12.30
IP
22:42
better than neo gas!
[
L
Z
22:47
Zack
Yes, it is a little disappointing.
I hope we can get up to 100 gallons of gas per tx in 2 months.
I hope we can get up to 100 gallons of gas per tx in 2 months.
22:52
I am calculating that Amoveo is using 20x as much energy per tx as bitcoin. Can someone check my math?
I guess we are doing better than I though. 20x better than bitcoin.
I guess we are doing better than I though. 20x better than bitcoin.
MS
l
22:54
lyzer
Hey there Zack really admire your effort, specially after reading the full story bout what went down well done you managed a shit situation and came back stronger.
Z
MS
Z
22:56
Zack
energy consumed per tx is a useless metric either way.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
23:09
Deleted Account
Hi
23:09
Deleted Account
谁有中国人QQ群，拉我一个
23:09
Deleted Account
I want to ask, how to sent my VEO
23:10
I have a trade, but it is my first time for trade
23:10
Plz help
23:11
Deleted Account
Yes
23:13
Deleted Account
Pham the miner creator? :)
23:13
Deleted Account
Yes, i am miner
OK
23:15
O K
Hung Pham might be a miner, but PhamHuong said he is not Hung Pham
Z
MF
23:27
Mr Flintstone
we broke 1k in discord
23:27
1k discord members
k
23:29
kdmlll
The noise/information ratio has begun to drop.
AM
23:31
Alex Mark
Hi admin, please share me a guide to create a transaction amoveo coin in http://159.89.106.253:8080/wallet.html
23:31
thanks
Z
23:37
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/cn/README.md
This has become the most popular page on the github. It is also the only page in Chinese.
I think this means the community is hungry for more Chinese documentation.
This has become the most popular page on the github. It is also the only page in Chinese.
I think this means the community is hungry for more Chinese documentation.
IP
23:38
I P
yep would be good if we could find more community members willing to translate
MF
Z
23:46
Zack
In reply to this message
translations are so risky.
When the english version is updated, it is hard to know if the chinese version should also be updated.
When the english version is updated, it is hard to know if the chinese version should also be updated.
23:47
I did an upgrade so that transactions wont be lost so often.
It seems like when blocks were orphaned, sometimes it caused transactions to get lost.
It seems like when blocks were orphaned, sometimes it caused transactions to get lost.
IP
23:48
I P
we need an AI blockchain bot to translate github from english to chinese
23:48
i think it is a good idea to raise like 60M$ on ico. Are you in, guys?
23:49
we could raise 60m$ on ico selling 40% tokens, aftet that pump it a bit and dump remaining 60%. sounds like a good plan
OK
23:57
O K
In reply to this message
Do you mind explaining how this update will help when a transaction is included in a block, and then that block is orphaned?
Z
23:58
Zack
Now when you use the internal api to generate a tx, then you immediately try to send that tx to every peer.
23:58
All 20 of them.
23 May 2018
A
00:04
Angelos | Coinomi Wallet (I will never PM you first)
In reply to this message
market manipulation is not a non-crime, im surprised you're boasting this in an open channel
IP
A
00:06
Angelos | Coinomi Wallet (I will never PM you first)
well
IP
A
00:06
Angelos | Coinomi Wallet (I will never PM you first)
sure
lolvut invited lolvut
vincent invited vincent
Tuan Nguyen invited Tuan Nguyen
Tkk invited Tkk
Z
02:11
Zack
Block 23336 had 49 txs.
This might be our biggest block ever.
This might be our biggest block ever.
02:11
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
"Amoveo is worth about $5 million. up 330%"
Is this market cap?
Is this market cap?
Z
02:12
Zack
Market cap is around $12 million now
S
02:13
Sebsebzen
In reply to this message
Yes. It is the color scheme that got most votes and also Zack preference. But the other logo pack has the svg files included, which you can you open in photoshop.
Z
OK
02:15
O K
In reply to this message
I can't find the svg pack, only pdfs, would you link them to me please?
02:16
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Thanks. I got an old Linux box, u think I can profitably mine on it? Is there a mining calculator somewhere?
OK
OK
02:17
O K
Probably only valuable to increase your knowledge
David invited David
D
02:19
???
OK
02:19
O K
In reply to this message
This is the official amoveo telegram group, you can PM me or I can help you here
02:19
I operate the pool
S
OK
S
[
02:30
[Riki]
Can we update the telegram channel with amoveo logo. And maybe remove "2" from channel title?
02:30
People who search for group will find it easier
S
J
Z
Zack changed group photo
L
02:33
Larry
Nice!
OK
03:14
Zack See if this centers a little better
M
03:35
Mike
When we did the AWS price calculation/metric at the beginning of the blockchain with that huge German miner, what was he paying per VEO at consumer prices? I wanna say $110 each but it’s been a while.
OK
M
03:39
Mike
Kassel was using 240 V100’s rented I think
03:39
S
03:41
Sy
240?
03:41
thats 1.92 TH right there...are you sure you konw what you are talking about?
M
03:42
Mike
S
03:43
Sy
and?
M
03:44
Mike
I’m trying to find the average price at which the biggest holders acquired
S
03:44
Sy
you should start by finding out WHEN the biggest holder acquired
AS
03:45
Aizen Sou
Lol, it's a noob's thought
03:45
Let's him do his wasting time game, Sy
S
03:46
Sy
xD
03:46
he is using wrong numbers to begin with
03:47
the first VEO were traded around 50-80$
M
S
03:47
Sy
maybe some before that cheaper but zacks first sale to determine the price yielded 50ish i think
03:48
nothing and, just giving you a number
03:48
i already gave you all the hints i will, figure it out :)
M
03:53
Mike
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. I remember when difficulty was low, the miner from Kassel was mining over 50% of the blocks. We theorized he was paying quite an obscene amount to mine that much whether it was a GPU farm with closed software (like yours Sy) or simply renting instances(?) in AWS.
OK
03:59
O K
What date was that, and what do Jim's stats say about nethash at that time
I
03:59
Iridescence
In reply to this message
Note that difficulty is much higher now, and I think miners are also different due to the pow change
03:59
That was just an estimate on my part lol
04:00
Deleted Account
Pool 2 down?
04:00
Deleted Account
myeah, pool seems to be struggling
I
M
Андрюхин invited Андрюхин
I
04:03
Iridescence
Then? Or now?
А
04:03
Андрюхин
Hi guys. There's any problem with pool ?
04:03
have this error
Deleted invited Deleted Account
04:04
Deleted Account
😂 me 2
OK
04:04
O K
I'm checking
Tc
04:04
THE KING cavalc
there's issues with amoveo2 poll?
04:04
04:04
04:07
Deleted Account
restart amoveo2 pool please
OK
04:08
O K
Working on it
J
04:09
Jim
In reply to this message
Keep in mind the average miner was much less efficient during that time. I think from first public GPU miner (Mandel), we’ve had a 10x in efficiency
04:09
Technology FTW
OK
04:09
O K
Everyone getting work?
Calvin invited Calvin
IP
04:10
I P
https://github.com/ifdefelse/ProgPOW#progpow---a-programmatic-proof-of-work buy the way guys what do you think of it?
M
04:10
Mike
In reply to this message
He minded a thousand or so early when single NVIDIA cards we still mining .15-.25 VEO a day. Pre block 8000 I think
IP
04:10
I P
In reply to this message
i mean if that progpow algorithm trullly makes specialized hardware only 20% faster than gpgpu - it is very cool
I
OK
I
04:12
Iridescence
In reply to this message
Back then price was undetermined as not much trading was happening - earlier is riskier
IP
04:14
I P
ok just remember that 10 000btc=1 pizza in the early days
OK
04:15
O K
Confirmations are the same # as before
M
04:16
Mike
In reply to this message
I’m talking about his hardware, software, electric and labor costs. So like if he’s paying $3/hour for a V100 plus how much he paid to have a miner made. Or if he has a farm, how much he paid for the cards, electric and laborers. At what point does the money he directly sunk equal the quantity of his VEO times price.
I
04:18
Iridescence
In reply to this message
I mean, I'm not Kassel so I don't know how much he actually paid for all of those things.
IP
04:19
I P
In reply to this message
there is no way of knowing. He clearly went through a lot of effort and money. i doubt he is going to sell any time soon
04:19
would not be surprised if he is a long time btc holder
I
04:19
Iridescence
I made my own miner in the beginning... I estimate it took me about 50 hours (very roughly) to develop.
04:19
Time cost is dependent on the person - I would charge $500 per hour for my time =p
OK
04:20
O K
In reply to this message
That's pretty good Iri, how much time have you spent making miners in your crypto life?
I
04:20
Iridescence
electric costs are pretty negligible in the beginning to be honest
04:20
In reply to this message
Amoveo was my first miner, but I've had experience in Software development and CUDA prior to that
04:22
In reply to this message
You are basically trying to understand the cost basis of this entity, but as in all markets that information is not easily obtained - You can only estimate and guess
M
04:22
Mike
In reply to this message
I mean sure, but we can at least estimate. I’m sticking with the $120 number until I hear something different. We had multiple people mine of AWS and determine a rough ROI at the beginning.
IP
I
04:23
Iridescence
I think it's a good assumption that there were no ASICS in the beginning (or now?).... so one would either have to have a large farm of GPUs or rent AWS
M
04:24
Mike
Yeah there are definitely not any ASICS yet.
04:24
Zack talked to Kassel if I remember correctly.
MF
04:24
Mr Flintstone
I bet we have secret ASICs at some point. but no real way to know
OK
04:25
O K
I wouldn't be surprised if someone had some FPGA going
I
04:25
Iridescence
maybe bitmain is already producing Amoveo ASICS 😁
OK
Z
04:30
Zack
In reply to this message
Gpu mining is bad because gpu can be reused for other blockchains.
IP
04:31
I P
In reply to this message
why is it bad? you can get a lot of ppl involved who will use consumer grade hardware, get better coin distibution
Z
04:33
Zack
No, it's a worse distribution.
We want the smallest portion to go to miners as possible.
If the miners can switch blockchain, then it will cause difficulty oscillations, which means we will be over-paying our miners.
We want the smallest portion to go to miners as possible.
If the miners can switch blockchain, then it will cause difficulty oscillations, which means we will be over-paying our miners.
OK
IP
04:35
I P
In reply to this message
https://etherscan.io/chart/hashrate i don't see wild oscillations and miners get the same amount anyways- not the smallest- not the biggest- they always get same block reward
Zack changed group photo
MF
04:37
Mr Flintstone
Nice
04:37
looks good
HN
04:37
H N
Nice
Z
04:37
Zack
In reply to this message
Switching cost is high for now. Cryptocurrency is growing quick. The switching cost is falling quickly.
OK
04:37
O K
If you guys want I can crop anything outside the circle, just let me know
I
04:48
Deleted Account
hey, is something happening to am2 pool? i've barely been paid today o.O
mined for 15 hours now and only accumulated around 0.01 veo
mined for 15 hours now and only accumulated around 0.01 veo
04:48
on 10.5 gh/s
OK
04:49
O K
Did you just start mining today?
04:49
Deleted Account
nope, been mining for a couple of days so it's not block maturity
OK
04:49
O K
What do you mean "mined for 15 hours"
04:49
Deleted Account
by 15 hours i meant 15 hours after my payout
04:50
it's been 15 hours since i last got a payment sent out
OK
04:50
O K
According to your wallet, or according to pending transactions?
04:52
PM the first 5 of your address and I'll send you your history on our backend. You can compare
05:00
Deleted Account
oki ❤️
L
Juggy invited Juggy
Mustapha invited Mustapha
G
05:45
Gonzalo
In reply to this message
actually it was 10 000 btc = 2 pizza 😁
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137
05:46
btw, pizza buyer was the first to release a BTC GPU miner in 2010
L
G
05:55
Gonzalo
Well, I'm selling a server for VEO...
05:56
at discord, off-topic, there's a pic there ;)
AS
06:14
Zack did u read it ? It related to the timestamp problem u wished to fix
Z
06:18
Zack
Aizen This paper is for the case with 100% altruists. It is worthless to us.
Amoveo is designed with the model more like 1% altruist, 32% attackers, 67% self interested.
Amoveo is designed with the model more like 1% altruist, 32% attackers, 67% self interested.
AS
06:19
Aizen Sou
1% altruist? Wow. I didn't even know. Did u mention it somewhere in ur docs ?
Z
06:19
Zack
I am not sure what "timestamp problem" you are talking about.
MF
06:19
Mr Flintstone
can you expand on the 1% altruist assumption
Z
06:20
Zack
Well, I do call it a "blockchain", so clearly it isn't designed for altruists.
06:21
Blockchains are protocols so that groups of people who don't trust each other can come to agreement about some data. That way everyone has an identical copy of the data.
06:22
An altruist is someone who is willing to give up their own wealth for the benefit of the protocol.
Attackers are people willing to give up their own wealth to harm the protocol.
Self interested users want to increase their wealth, and don't care whether the protocol succeeds or fails.
Attackers are people willing to give up their own wealth to harm the protocol.
Self interested users want to increase their wealth, and don't care whether the protocol succeeds or fails.
06:23
Blockchains have a theoretical security limit. if more than something like 1/2 are attackers, then the blockchain cannot maintain consensus.
06:24
If more than 2/3rds are altrusts, then we would not need a blockchain. We could use traditional byzantine fault tolerance consensus mechanisms, like RAFT.
06:25
Blockchains are only useful if less than 1/2 is attackers, and less than 2/3rds are altruists.
AS
06:28
Aizen Sou
What happen to VEO if attackers gain more than 33% ?
MF
06:30
Mr Flintstone
very cool. Thank you for explanation
Z
06:36
Zack
In reply to this message
In the context of the timestamp mechanism being linked to,
if more than 33% were attackers, they could cause the rest of the network to split by feeding different information to each side.
Amoveo is secure against up to 50%
if more than 33% were attackers, they could cause the rest of the network to split by feeding different information to each side.
Amoveo is secure against up to 50%
06:47
I guess we are more than 10% of the way to having occasional full blocks.
This could cause some problems when it happens, since the full nodes are programmed to ignore any new txs once they have 650 ready for the next block.
So before then we should build a second tx pool or something like that.
This could cause some problems when it happens, since the full nodes are programmed to ignore any new txs once they have 650 ready for the next block.
So before then we should build a second tx pool or something like that.
AS
06:50
Another read for u, Zack . Would love to hear ur opinion. Thanks
Z
07:14
Zack
Trying to make your algorithm more ASIC resistant just gives ASIC manufacturers a bigger moat to protect their monopoly of ASIC production.
It is better to use an algorithm that is easy to build ASICS for, so that it is easier for more companies to compete at producing them.
It is better to use an algorithm that is easy to build ASICS for, so that it is easier for more companies to compete at producing them.
L
07:22
Tell us how to use our antminers zack haha :)
IP
07:24
i mean if asics will get only 20% boost over gpus
Z
07:30
Zack
Even if we had a truly ASIC resistant algorithm, we would be stuck using gpu, which are far worse than ASICS.
With GPU the miners can keep switching blockchains to be more profitable. This act of switching causes oscillations in the difficulty, these oscillations are very destructive.
They bleed extra VEO, over-rewarding miners who aren't doing enough work. The oscillations will keep getting worse over time as mining operations scale bigger.
With GPU the miners can keep switching blockchains to be more profitable. This act of switching causes oscillations in the difficulty, these oscillations are very destructive.
They bleed extra VEO, over-rewarding miners who aren't doing enough work. The oscillations will keep getting worse over time as mining operations scale bigger.
Kevin Vu invited Kevin Vu
L
08:04
Perhaps that's enough to keep the difficulty swings to a minimum?
J
08:45
Jim
A nice read to some design decisions made in Amoveo https://blog.theabacus.io/the-verge-hack-explained-7942f63a3017
OK
08:54
O K
I don't know about other pools, but avp2 is having issues probably from some changes for Worker IDs we made this morning causing some resources to get hung up
08:54
We are going to roll them back for the day and reevaluate them tomorrow
08:55
Interesting that you're having issues on other pools
08:56
As for the hashrate, after a crash, it's going to affect your average hashrate display on avp2
08:56
But, it's just the display
09:09
Deleted Account
My actual hashrate on the miner shows half on pool2, Sy's it cleared up.
09:09
Also got quite a few difficulty too low on pool2
09:09
As well as a strange difficulty showing in the 8k range
OK
09:11
O K
In reply to this message
Hashrate on pool is just display, the diff too low happened during the resource hang, and diff starts at 8k right now and should have worked back up
09:11
I'm rolling back the changes right now
09:11
So will reevaluate them in the morning
09:11
Sorry guys