Amoveo ♥🧿
30 April 2018
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Deleted joined group by link from Group
19:17
Deleted Account
Hi ! Could anyone tell me how to get a wallet address please ?
S
19:17
Sy
Visit one of the wallet.html and click save private key
19:17
Veoscan
http://veoscan.io/
19:18
Deleted Account
Thxxx
S
19:18
Sy
Reload the page, load your private key, check if pubkey changes
19:18
Pubkey is your account
19:18
Deleted Account
Ok thx a lot
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20:23
Deleted Account
Zack
Would you allow me to help you make german translations for your project? Just contact me as soon as you need me.
touzi joined group by link from Group
A
21:06
Al
Guys, got about 7 Veo to sell quickly.. If needed - dm me
Sebastian Kerber invited KS
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Tc
22:39
THE KING cavalc
Guys someone had issues with Veominer 1.3?
22:39
It crashes on mi 1080 ti rig
OK
22:40
O K
Each version seems to have its merits, I would try (one at a time) lower parameters, change auto local variable, or use a different version.
sanket joined group by link from Group
1 May 2018
A
00:51
Al
Zack pls ban
Zack removed Deleted Account
Z
01:03
Zack
In reply to this message
Thanks
1v4n joined group by link from Group
1
01:55
1v4n
hi fellas
01:56
whats the suggested pool and miner?
01:56
thanks
Z
01:56
Zack
http://159.65.120.84:8085/main.html
I manage this pool.
Z
02:15
Zack
I have some new evidence that the block reward should increase. It is strong evidence.

The average increase in value of a token is always in proportion to the risk of holding that token.

Over time, as the software improves and the market cap grows, the risk of holding amoveo will be decreasing.

This means that the price per token will increase more slowly as time goes on.

Therefore, in order for the market cap to increase fast enough, we will need to increase the block reward.
OK
02:18
O K
The average increase in value of a token is always in proportion to the risk of holding that token. Source?
D
02:19
Dmitriy
In reply to this message
This will have a negative effect towards speculative hodlers right?
OK
02:20
O K
In reply to this message
He has always been in favor of increasing the block reward, but the vast majority of the community is opposed to it and believe that it would negatively impact miners, early adopters, and speculative hodlers.
Z
02:20
Zack
This is a basic investing concept that I learned when I was studying derivatives.
I watched some lectures on YouTube.

Risk and reward are always in proportion.
AS
02:21
Aizen Sou
Why, Zack? You have been followed a lot of concepts from Bitcoin. And Bitcoin even reduces the block reward over time.
Z
02:24
Zack
It has to do wih how you use risk to calculate the expected value.
A person would only invest if the expected value is bigger than his alternative choices.

If the expected value is much better than any alternative, people would keep buying that asset, which increases the price until the expected value is the same as other investments.

Therefore, the reward and risk of any investment are in proportion.
OK
02:25
O K
Risk and reward are always in proportion. High risk ventures and investments sometimes yield very high rewards. There are plenty of things that are high risk that will never be high reward.
02:26
If you increase the supply, and you do not increase the demand, the price of Amoveo will fall. The market cap may not grow. If you increase the demand for Amoveo, the price will rise, and so will the market cap
Z
02:29
Zack
You would invest in some investment with high risk with low reward?

First send me 10 Veo.

Let's flip a coin. Heads I'll pay you 11 Veo. Tails I pay nothing.
02:29
It seems to me that you would only participate in a gambling game if the expected returns were positive.
D
02:30
Dmitriy
How do the expected returns increase if you increase block rewards? Isn't it the opposite?
OK
02:31
O K
In reply to this message
What is the counterexample? You inflate veo and I get back 25 veo worth 25% as much as the 10 I gave away?
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Z
02:31
Zack
In reply to this message
That is a complex question. Hard to be sure either way.
l
02:31
linky
will our current veo be adjusted for increased block reward?
OK
02:31
O K
In reply to this message
😂
D
02:32
Dmitriy
lol
OK
02:32
O K
In reply to this message
It's a fair question, but I doubt that's his proposal
l
02:32
linky
would make sense to swap
D
02:33
Dmitriy
I don't have any VEO, but from my understanding an increase in block reward would be beneficial to me
OK
02:34
O K
Like a lot of people in these spaces, I come from an anti-keynesian background. It's very easy to get confused information
MH
02:34
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
Can you define what is the 'fast enough' target number, or how that would be measured?
Deleted joined group by link from Group
OK
02:34
O K
In reply to this message
I think it would not benefit you, because it would create uncertainty around Amoveo, which would affect it permanently into the future
Deleted joined group by link from Group
AS
02:36
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
Excellent example, O.K.
Z
02:36
Zack
1) Risk of holding an asset and the average rate of value growth of that asset are always in proportion. Or the reward can be worse than the market rate.
2) the risk of holding Veo decreases over time.
3) we need the market cap to grow quickly if we want a shot at winning the prediction market blockchain competition.

If you agree with these 3 facts, then you must also agree that we will need to increase the block reward.
AS
02:37
Aizen Sou
I only agree with the third, and still it has nothing to do with increase the block reward, IMHO
Z
02:37
Zack
In reply to this message
It depends on how quickly our competition is moving.
If there were no competitors, we could afford to move more slowly.
l
02:39
linky
the risk of holding veo increases over time if current holdings aren't adjusted for block reward increases
Živojin Mirić joined group by link from Group
S
02:44
Sebsebzen
we just use mVEO as new unit of account, it only costs 20 cents
02:45
and each block also has x1000 more
02:45
solved
AS
02:45
Aizen Sou
Yeah
02:45
And the tx fee has to be reduced as well
MH
02:46
Mandel Hoff
Risk of holding veo increases if inflation of block reward comes in to play, so I don't agree that holding veo has a continually decreasing aggregate risk.

I'm neutral on the decision. I'm more swayed by thinking increased block rewards could heal some early wounds (Batman, Kassel). New members in the community should see those events as sketchy.
OK
02:47
O K
In reply to this message
I think this relies on the assumption that they are no longer participating
l
02:47
linky
I'm all for increasing block reward as long as we don't hyper inflate current veo circulation
OK
02:47
O K
In reply to this message
If they are participating, it could make things worse
MH
02:47
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
Thank you for clarifying. Sounds like you think largest market cap indicates beating the prediction market competition. That might be right - I'm not sure.
OK
02:49
O K
I would be more in favor of inflationary policies if the dev reward were fixed and not a % of the block reward.
Z
02:50
Zack
In reply to this message
For a prediction market to work well, the value of the tokens needs to be stable.
Because the volatility of the token value is in proportion to the time-value of the tokens, and that determines the cost of leaving money in the market or having a channel.

Volatility of tokens decreases as the market cap goes up.

Additionally, the maximum amount of money that can participate in the markets is limited by the market cap.
IP
02:50
I P
In reply to this message
well the value of veo had been stable for some time now. i see prices on OTC kind of in range 150-200
OK
02:50
O K
In reply to this message
Zack is insulated from inflationary policy. We shouldn't forget that. If it's truly "good for amoveo" then he should be willing to keep a fixed block reward, have amoveo improve, thus yielding good results for his coins that he already has.
Z
02:50
Zack
In reply to this message
We can change both these things simultaneous.
S
02:50
Sebsebzen
I think beating competition needs also lots of other factors. Marketing, community managers, ambassadors, speakers, etc.
02:51
not only marketcap
D
02:51
Dmitriy
^
02:51
Unfortunately, I don't think tech wins this early on
S
02:51
Sebsebzen
Nope
OK
02:51
O K
In reply to this message
This is what I believe. If we add VALUE and HARD WORK, we win. We cannot trick the system into a higher market cap.
S
02:52
Sebsebzen
If only tech, people will just fork you
IP
02:52
I P
anyways, unless veo is actively traded on exchanges we can't really talk about stable price/declining price/rising price. we only have a brief history of otc trading
OK
02:52
O K
In reply to this message
Fork is only successful if they continue the hard work. The work is never done.
Z
02:53
Zack
Maybe we should split the network for a while, and see which version grows faster
MH
02:53
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
I agree with your statements about stability being important for a good prediction market. I'm not sure I agree that increased block reward will necessarily bring that.
Z
02:55
Zack
Historically, it seems like money mostly grows because of evolution. The bad moneys die off and lose their value.
It is too hard for us to understand or communicate about such politically charged decisions.
R joined group by link from Group
IP
02:56
I P
In reply to this message
bad idea. community is kind of small as it is
R
02:56
R
Hi Guys noob here
OK
02:56
O K
Things are going great, there is continual growth. Everyone here now is an early adopter still.
R
02:56
R
Prob noob Quest but were can you buy this great coin? Exchange?
LB
02:57
Luke B
Discord
Z
02:57
Zack
I am glad to have a community where we aren't afraid to disagree and debate.
IP
02:57
I P
In reply to this message
https://discord.gg/VF9H49N
MH
02:57
Mandel Hoff
Is this something that should have a market/oracle and let the community bet on? Does that seems like a reasonable way to approach this topic?
l
02:58
linky
merge to a new chain with increased block rewards and current hodlers are adjusted for increase
IP
02:58
I P
so my point is it's kind of too early talking about forks
Z
02:58
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes. That is how the governance works in amoveo.
OK
02:58
O K
In reply to this message
I agree with this. We need to get more use in the markets, Amoveo is still young.
02:59
Deleted Account
Increasing the block reward doesn't really do much for increasing network value via increased risk, it would only serve to dilute current VEO holders at a faster rate and increase inflation in the short-term. Neither of these things does much to inspire confidence in a newly developing network, and would likely DISCOURAGE new adoption since it shows that the community is willing to remove value from it's early supporters at will.
02:59
The only way that an increase in block rewards would make sense is if the network's user-growth was being limited by a perception that early-adopters retained the majority of control in the network, but at an effective inflation rate of ~1% per DAY, I highly doubt that is true.
Z
02:59
Zack
The Oracle can only function as long as it is possible for forks to happen.
OK
03:00
O K
In reply to this message
would likely DISCOURAGE new adoption agreed Jay
IP
03:00
I P
well Zack if you want big market cap, stable price that way, many people involved and etc- fork with bticoin
03:00
if it is possible to import utxos
Z
03:00
Zack
In reply to this message
You misunderstood.
We aren't trying to increase risk. We are trying to increase the rate of production of new tokens so the market cap grows faster.
03:01
Deleted Account
Market cap in VEO or market cap in $?
l
03:01
linky
that increases risk substantially
Z
03:01
Zack
In reply to this message
I think airdrop is a bad strategy. if it costs nothing, it is worth nothing.
l
03:01
linky
my coins can be hyper inflated at any moment
OK
03:01
O K
In reply to this message
You effectively implied here that increasing risk would be a good thing, by the way
IP
03:02
I P
anyways, this talk is based on an assumption that we need stable price for veo. right now we don;t really have price because there is no active exchange trading
Z
03:02
Zack
In reply to this message
Market cap growth rate = (value of new tokens mined) +((current market cap)*(increase in price of tokens))
S joined group by link from Group
03:03
Deleted Account
If we want to capture the XRP effect of attracting users who only care about a low $ price per token, we'd just fork and add 10 zeros to the end of every VEO denomination. This does nothing to change the aggregate value of the network aside from that
R
03:03
R
In reply to this message
And how is the coinsupply areanged
OK
03:03
O K
In reply to this message
Market cap growth rate = (value of new coins mined) +((current market cap)*(increase OR DECREASE in price of coins))
S
03:03
Sebsebzen
In reply to this message
my idea
Z
03:04
Zack
In reply to this message
If it decreases you use a negative number there.
OK
03:04
O K
Not to be pedantic, but it's my understanding that tokens are not mined whereas coins are mined. Maybe there are different schools of thought on this.
IP
03:04
I P
In reply to this message
by the way, it seems not a bad thing to consider. scale everything 1000x. current coins we hold and block reward
l
03:04
linky
In reply to this message
that's what Ive been saying as well
S
03:05
Sebsebzen
psychologically that makes sense
OK
03:05
O K
In reply to this message
This doesn't acheive the inflationary effect he's looking for
IP
03:05
I P
In reply to this message
no but that is what people mind wants, a lot of cheap coins
S
03:05
Sebsebzen
noboyd wants to buy 1000 USD coins with this low marketcap
OK
03:05
O K
In reply to this message
It's a completely different issue
03:05
In reply to this message
Honestly I think it will stand out
IP
03:05
I P
and easier to nominate
OK
03:05
O K
I think a high price coin in the top 100 will draw attention
l
03:06
linky
go to cmc and sort by usd value
OK
03:06
O K
People have done the "hyper low price" thing
S
03:06
Sebsebzen
nobody will use VEO unit anyway then
03:06
but mVEO
OK
03:07
O K
It's fine to talk about mVEO guys, but we shouldn't pretend it's the same issue
03:07
It's, I'm sure, not nearly as controversial
03:07
In fact, anyone right now can change the current light wallet wo work in mVeo without forking the network at all
IP
03:07
I P
well true. people tend to like holding 100 of a coin
03:07
and not 0.1 of a coin
S
03:07
Sebsebzen
and also imagine saying please pay me 0.000002 VEO
03:08
vs please pay me 2 uVEO
OK
03:08
O K
In reply to this message
After people got burned on plenty of shitcoins following this formula, maybe the feelings will change on this
03:08
Think meta
S
03:08
Sebsebzen
Block reward and denomination both don't change the fundamentals though
03:09
That's what creates the value in the end
OK
03:09
O K
In reply to this message
Changing block reward absolutely changes a fundamental
S
03:09
Sebsebzen
good product, good team, good roadmap
03:09
the price per VEO likely will go down if change block reward, right?
IP
03:09
I P
In reply to this message
won't change really. only very few people who come to crypto have math kind of mind where 0.001Veo or 1000uVeo does not matter to them, all the other would like 1000uVeo because it is more convenient to process in their minds
Z
03:10
Zack
Block rewards is a political decision.
I think that OK explaining the right wing politics for this issue, and I am giving reasons for left wing.
IP
03:12
I P
In reply to this message
well i'm trying to say that before veo is actively traded on exchange and has price history i don't see a point talking about big/small market cap and stable/unstable price. we all want big market cap and stable price. But you always need this first part where you start. right now we don't have this part. i can't consider early otc trading as a legit way of price discovery
OK
03:13
O K
In reply to this message
I think I am arguing for the most effective means to ends we both agree on. Technology to Telos.
IP
03:13
I P
so it is too early to change block reward
Z
03:13
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes. We should have an exchange first before we start playing with the block reward size. Otherwise we wont be able to measure what changed with we update the variable.
03:13
Deleted Account
Increasing inflation will increase coin velocity tremendously, as there will be much less incentive for miners to hold VEO. Right now if I hold 1 VEO, it's based on the risk-laden speculative belief that the network's USD market cap will increase more than the 1% daily rate of inflation. I lose 1% of every VEO I hold every day. If you increase that rate of inflation, you also increase the number of people willing to sell immediately rather than hold (since fewer people have the risk tolerance of holding an asset they believe will outpace inflation), thus creating more downwards price pressure and lowering the USD market cap, regardless of the number of tokens in circulation.
OK
03:14
O K
Without many active use-cases, there will be less incentive for people to buy VEO as well
M
03:14
Marc
how many invalid shares does amopool2 or zacks get? it would be nice to have more stats.
S
03:14
Sebsebzen
and without the soft factors that I mentioned above
S
03:14
S
Increasing block reward (something I agree with) should only come while taking into account holders.
Maybe an airdrop of 10x ur wallet holding for a 10x increase in block reward
l
03:15
linky
10:1 split
IP
03:15
I P
In reply to this message
not only the exchange itself but a price history on that exchange so that we can have solid price discovery and feedback
S
03:15
S
A decen mktcap for Amoveo would see the coim reach 6 figures easy
OK
03:15
O K
In reply to this message
What is the difference to changing denomination?
l
03:15
linky
6 figures for one coin? Dafuq
IP
03:16
I P
denomination is the other issue to consider
OK
03:16
O K
In reply to this message
Yeah, would be like, whoa what's this coin in the top 100, I need to check this out
IP
03:16
I P
and i think we could start voting on this early on
l
03:16
linky
nah
03:16
I think it will be the opposite
OK
03:17
O K
There are TWO coins in the top 100 that have price per >1000
03:17
Yes, it would stand out
l
03:17
linky
Stand out but no one would buy it
Z
03:17
Zack
I would buy it.
IP
03:17
I P
i very much like switching from 1veo to 1000mVeo, would make all settlements easier
l
03:17
linky
Ok Zack would buy it
S
03:17
S
Denom chane or equivalent of stock split is pretty similar
OK
03:17
O K
People will buy it because it is the best most excellent most useful coin there is
03:17
That IS the goal afterall
MF
03:17
Mr Flintstone
for what it’s worth, the coolest part of amoveo to me is that these arguments are just that: arguments. we will be able to see how people truly feel once betting on a block reward oracle starts
03:18
my guess is that greed will rule and the block reward will not increase
l
03:18
linky
So you want people to pay 10k for .1 amoveo
S
03:18
S
In reply to this message
Is that why they buy other top 5 coins? 😝
Z
03:18
Zack
Maybe we should get rid of 3 decimal places.
So the block reward would be 0.001 veo, and the current market cap is 23.8 Veo.
IP
03:18
I P
its not about buying it's about the fact that for average human mind it is easier to pay 300mVeo to open oracle than pay 0.3veo
03:18
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Exactly. Until you have an established network using VEO for real applications, you only have a market cap based on speculative value. Increasing users will eventually realize non-speculative network value as they use VEO to the full extent possible, but in the mean time, the primary variable that drives price is speculative, and decreasing speculators
l
03:18
linky
lol Zack
03:18
Deleted Account
ability to hold a coin via inflation results in lower network growth
OK
03:18
O K
In reply to this message
Well since I understand what Market Cap signifies, the price per is irrelevant to me. I would buy a tenth an ounce of gold or rhodium, or maybe an ounce of silver, too.
l
03:18
linky
that would be interesting
03:19
In reply to this message
sure u understand it but how about everyone else in crypto?
OK
03:19
O K
In reply to this message
It's a different issue than the inflationary one
MF
03:19
Mr Flintstone
I don’t think we should consider that amoveo “looks” expensive when we think about the block reward argument. this is arbitrary
OK
03:19
O K
In reply to this message
There's a great squad behind BTC, they seem to get it
MF
03:20
Mr Flintstone
we can put the decimal wherever we want
l
03:20
linky
btc is in a league of its own
OK
03:20
O K
In reply to this message
Zack intends to surpass BTC
l
03:20
linky
the other coins above 1k are makerr and xin
S
03:20
S
In reply to this message
Blockchain was made for PMs
J|
03:20
Jun Dam | 100x Trade | bitcashBank
Questions: 1) does scarcity increase or decrease real value 2) does dilution increase or decrease real value 3) will infinite money supply growth result in infinite market cap? 4) what scenarios can dilution increase real value? 5) if so how do you achieve that? 6) does a fixed inflation rate increase or decrease risk for holders? 7) does a unpredictable inflation rate increase or decrease risk for holders ?
IP
03:20
I P
In reply to this message
it took many years to get all those decimals and satoshis
l
03:21
linky
both of which have been depreciating against btc
S
03:21
Sebsebzen
has anyone watched the movie about the McDonalds story?
03:21
The Founder
IP
03:21
I P
and actually about btc it has 2 denominations satoshis for small numbers and btc for large
Z
03:21
Zack
I watched it
MF
03:21
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
there are different categories of “unpredictable”
S
03:21
Sebsebzen
I'm also a bit worried about that
M
03:21
Mike
In reply to this message
Yeah
IP
03:21
I P
In reply to this message
i think that is bad
l
03:21
linky
In reply to this message
😍
IP
03:22
I P
well it is kind of hard to not surpass btc
OK
03:22
O K
In reply to this message
1,2,4,5) What is "real value", 3) No. 6) decrease risk. 7) increase risk.
M
03:22
Mike
In reply to this message
This would make me happy
IP
03:22
I P
btc is a very solid tech but kind of simple
03:22
so if we are talking about the tech and capabilities many coins surpass btc in that regard
MF
03:23
Mr Flintstone
argument is such an inelegant way of deciding things. let’s just let the futarchy work its magic...
h
03:23
hewwo
BTC isn't only a tech, it's a network of people, without any point of failure
OK
03:23
O K
In reply to this message
Let's get the markets working better
h
03:23
hewwo
With your project, guys, you have one coder and he isn't anon. this is a point of failure.
IP
03:23
I P
In reply to this message
BTC is a BRAND
OK
03:23
O K
In reply to this message
It's open source
S
03:23
Sebsebzen
A take over is something that is a risk. When people see crypto projects to invest or participate, they usually check for number of devs, quality of website, seed investors, media appearances, etc. It's a preconceived notion in their head that this is the what constitutes a good crypto project. Essentially, it's a story that is being told, that's how people make sense of the world. If Amoveo is not good at telling it's story, someone may just take the code and sell the story. I'm just saying, apart from code, also worth keeping an eye on soft factors.
l
03:24
linky
yeah but Zack is a super ai from the future
IP
03:24
I P
billions of people know about btc and they think that blockchain and crypto=btc
h
03:24
hewwo
@potat_o This isn't what I'm saying dude.
IP
03:24
I P
only crypto enthusiasts know some coins below btc,eth and ripple
S
03:24
Sebsebzen
Ideally, it will grow organically
Z
03:25
Zack
In reply to this message
1) what do you mean by "scarcity"? real value of what?
2) real value of what?
3) we live on a finite planet with finite resources. The amount of value we can have is limited by this.
4, 5) if the profit margin for miners is small, then we are efficiently turning electricity value into cryptocurrency value. If the profit margin of miners is big, then we are wasting value and over-rewarding miners.
6) increased risk. If the network cannot adapt to a changing environment, then there is risk that the environment will change and hurt the blockchain.
7) unpredictability increases risk. Amoveo's governance doesn't seem unpredictable to me. it is slow.
IP
03:25
I P
In reply to this message
true, that is why we need a dev community, but it does not just happen too fast
h
03:25
hewwo
True.
03:25
Do you have a desktop wallet ?
MF
03:25
Mr Flintstone
I think we can all at least agree that the minimum oracle fee should be lowered
Z
03:25
Zack
In reply to this message
Veo are divisible into 100,000,000 satoshi. just like bitcoins.
S
03:25
Sebsebzen
Then just name mVEO = 1 AMO
03:26
and we just use that
03:26
or 1 ZACH
03:26
*ZACK
JS
03:26
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
We can all agree on this, right?
S
03:26
Sebsebzen
is our satoshi unit
03:26
haha
Karuz0 joined group by link from Group
OK
03:26
O K
In reply to this message
Let's open a market
l
03:26
linky
zackoshi
Z
03:26
Zack
In reply to this message
Futarchy can only work if we have these community discussions.
Amoveo incentivizes us to come to consensus, but it cannot force us to come to consensus.
MF
03:27
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
we need to act on this before it’s too late. If amoveo goes 10x, it’s gonna be super expensive to use the oracles. it also takes time for the variable change to get hard coded into the chain
03:27
same goes for transaction fees
OK
03:27
O K
In reply to this message
Let's lower this
MF
03:28
Mr Flintstone
doesn’t it take 2k blocks minimum to get a governance variable changed?
S
03:28
Sebsebzen
and add more 0000s
E(
03:28
Elon Moist (CEO of Bitcoin)
does anyone think the supply is a bit low?
IP
03:28
I P
oracle and tx fee lowering right now seems like first priority
E(
03:28
Elon Moist (CEO of Bitcoin)
the psychology is difficult for general user base
OK
03:28
O K
In reply to this message
I like the supply low
E(
03:28
Elon Moist (CEO of Bitcoin)
i like supply low
03:28
too
IP
03:28
I P
In reply to this message
this is also a good idea
S
03:28
Sebsebzen
yes, more zeros
MF
03:28
Mr Flintstone
we can just move the decimal place
OK
03:28
O K
In reply to this message
Just do this
S
03:28
Sebsebzen
easier to give away free coins
OK
03:28
O K
Just change the wallet
MF
03:29
Mr Flintstone
We can agree to do this off chain
OK
03:29
O K
It doesn't need a fork
E(
03:29
Elon Moist (CEO of Bitcoin)
In reply to this message
"free coins"
MF
03:29
Mr Flintstone
we do not need a hard fork for this
OK
03:29
O K
In reply to this message
Yes
S
03:29
Sebsebzen
yeah, like in reddit
IP
03:29
I P
In reply to this message
yep, adding zeroes is very important right now
MF
03:29
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
I think your AMO suggestion is reasonable
S
03:29
Sebsebzen
hand out 1 mVEO
03:29
or AMO
OK
03:29
O K
In reply to this message
IP You run a node don't you? Just change the light wallet do be in mVEO
03:29
You don't need our permission
S
03:29
Sebsebzen
it's not being used yet either
Z
03:29
Zack
In reply to this message
if the oracle became 10x as expensive this way, then we would all also have 10x as much value in Veo. it would still cost 0.3 Veo, or whatever it costs.
S
03:29
Sebsebzen
AMO and VEO are still free as abbreviations
Z
03:29
Zack
In reply to this message
yes.
S
03:29
S
I found something that's a bit of a turn off for new miners. Especially when difficulty increases. Maybe this can be tackled with nominal value:
Minimum mining payout on amoveopool2 is .5 VEO which is huge
OK
03:29
O K
In reply to this message
I think 0.3 Veo is too high
MF
03:30
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
newcomers would need to buy 10x as much usd equivalent to use the oracle
S
03:30
Sebsebzen
three letter ones are rare, so that's fortunate
IP
03:30
I P
In reply to this message
yep, sure
JS
03:30
Jon Snow
Now the oracle fee is 0.6, right?
OK
03:30
O K
In reply to this message
New miners who don't understand they can make $150 with one GTX 1080 in 20 days? I mean we can't hold everyone's hand. Some people don't want to make profits.
MF
03:31
Mr Flintstone
it cannot be like 500 dollars to open an oracle
03:31
that is ridiculous
S
03:31
S
In reply to this message
I agree. But holding 100$ worth of value before payout can be a turnoff to new miners
Z
03:31
Zack
In reply to this message
We can make the wallet adjustable.
I am thinking we should have a confirmation popup saying something like "are you sure you want to spend 1.2 units? (same as 0.0012 Veo). [Continue] [Cancel]"
JS
03:32
Jon Snow
0.6 veo Oracle fee is toooooooooo high.
MF
03:32
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
yep
OK
03:32
O K
In reply to this message
Only if we can all agree the smallest unit is Zackoshi
S
03:32
Sebsebzen
VEO, AMO, ZACK
IP
03:32
I P
In reply to this message
adjustable wallet is good
S
03:32
Sebsebzen
or zackoshi :)
OK
03:32
O K
In reply to this message
It's gotta be Zackoshi, there's no negotiability here
MF
03:32
Mr Flintstone
lol
03:32
Zack short for zackoshi
l
03:32
linky
In reply to this message
I copyrighted that
S
03:32
Sebsebzen
15 zats
MF
03:32
Mr Flintstone
Hash
03:33
Haha
Z
03:33
Zack
In reply to this message
I think "AMO" is bad.
That is the same as "BULLETS".
We don't want to be associated to guns, do we?
OK
03:33
O K
In reply to this message
😂😂😂😂😂
03:33
In reply to this message
huh??? I like veo, but what are you talking about bullets?
S
03:33
Sebsebzen
to me it sounds like AMOre
03:33
love
MH
03:33
Mandel Hoff
Amo is latin for 'love', right?
OK
03:33
O K
Yeah
03:33
love
03:33
❤️
S
03:33
S
Any reason for choosing the name amoveo?
l
03:33
linky
Rex Zack
IP
03:33
I P
nodoby know latin nowadays
MH
03:33
Mandel Hoff
I thought it was 'love' veo. A softer way of saying 'greed is good'.
OK
03:34
O K
I love, I see
l
03:34
linky
I know Latin
Z
03:34
Zack
In reply to this message
if the reward is too low, then there isn't enough incentive to participate in the oracle, so an oracle might lie because no one is paying attention.
Do we have anyone who is consistently looking at oracles for opportunities to make a profit?
I think I am the only one who has done any oracle txs.
So it seems to me that the fee is too low.
S
03:34
S
In reply to this message
💘
S
03:35
Sebsebzen
Yep, love and seeing, eye, prediction, oracle
OK
03:35
O K
In reply to this message
YES
S
03:35
Sebsebzen
cool associations
Z
03:35
Zack
In reply to this message
Almost no one will launch an oracle.
Most users will just make bets in a market that already exists.
S
03:35
Sebsebzen
actually im working on a logo with this angle
MF
03:35
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
personal risk hedging?
Z
03:37
Zack
In reply to this message
"Ammo" is a synonym for bullets.
OK
03:37
O K
The only reason I haven't participated in oracles is because of lack of experience, documentation
Z
03:37
Zack
In reply to this message
nice one. I should explain it that way.
l
03:37
linky
lol
OK
03:37
O K
I think many of us would like to
MF
03:38
Mr Flintstone
yeah, I think it’s also a great way to make money to look for people who are trying to sneak a false oracle outcome ...
S
03:38
S
In reply to this message
Definitely! A bit overwhelming atm
OK
03:38
O K
Would it make more sense for it to be dynamic, based off of participation in the market?
03:38
Rather than some fixed reward
Z
03:38
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/api/commands_oracle.md

The docs seem good to me. Do you have any questions after looking at this?
03:39
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
The lack of oracle usage has more to do with users' technical ineptitude than cost. If we had a slick UI or something like Metamask, I know it would remove this barrier for me and the users I know personally
OK
03:40
O K
In reply to this message
Yes, the UI criticism is valid and reoccurring
03:40
Deleted Account
And if our goal is network adoption and value growth, that's the most efficient way to achieve it IMO
OK
03:40
O K
In reply to this message
Will need to participate to know. Need more markets to participate
Z
03:40
Zack
In reply to this message
No.
This is one of the major ways that we differ from the standard Truthcoin design. Augur and Bitcoin Hivemind both have a trading fee to pay for the oracle.

https://twitter.com/zack_bitcoin/status/989588818297794561
OK
03:41
O K
In reply to this message
What is the incentive to open a market if you must foot the cost?
03:41
and share reward?
03:41
Honest question
03:42
In reply to this message
What if the fee is only to match
Z
03:44
Zack
In reply to this message
Someone has to pay.

It doesn't make sense for the traders to pay, because the first trader will have no incentive to participate, and because the traders are doing work and taking risks.
Instead we should charge the people who benefit from the market's existence.

In general, we can use a dominant assurance contract to efficiently collect funds from the users who benefit from the market's existence.
03:45
For example, if you want to make a prediction market to decide whether your company should use business plan B or C, then it makes sense that you should pay the cost of launching the prediction market.
The market is existing for your benefit.
Tc
03:49
THE KING cavalc
@potat_o Hi man
03:49
I'm mining since this afternoon, but for now there's no % of veo in my balance, is it normal?
OK
03:50
O K
In reply to this message
Just takes about 50 blocks to update. If you see shares you're doing great 👍
Tc
03:50
THE KING cavalc
Uh ok
OK
03:50
O K
In reply to this message
Charging the people who benefit from its existence makes sense. Okay. So, in the early days it would benefit us all to have more markets. I think that's a good reason to lower it until we see abuse happening.
03:51
In reply to this message
If you stop mining now and come back later, your balance will have updated. It's just how many blocks it takes for the pool to consider a block that was won by the pool confirmed.
03:54
In reply to this message
What would it be like if the person opening the market could choose how much protection was needed by the price of the oracle reward?
Zigabiz joined group by link from Group
Z
03:56
Zack
In reply to this message
If the oracle has low protection, then it can get closed at the wrong state. Which can lead to difficult questions.
How many blocks should we be willing to revert if an oracle lies?

In the worst case, this can make the blockchain split.
Aaron joined group by link from Group
MF
03:58
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
it would only get closed at the wrong state if market participants didn’t take the free money
03:58
Deleted Account
I'd be willing to work on a frontend
MF
03:58
Mr Flintstone
that was bet on the wrong outcome
Z
03:58
Zack
Keep in mind that the cost of an Amoveo oracle is less than 1/1000th the cost of a bitcoin hivemind or augur oracle.

We just have one flat fee per oracle.
In Augur, it is critical that the holders of Rep tokens get paid enough per month to maintain a high enough market cap of Rep.
So every month you have to pay them something like 5-10% the market cap of Rep.
03:59
In reply to this message
if the free money is only $0.05
Then it isn't worth the effort to find out about it.
04:00
Deleted Account
Is anyone working on a UI right now?
MF
04:02
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
I think that if anyone bet any significant money at all on the market and was matched, they would be incentivized to pay 10 cents to make sure the oracle resolved correctly...
04:02
if not, if there is low economic activity on the market, then the oracle outcome doesn’t matter anyways
04:03
people on the markets will not lose money because someone bet 10 dollars on the false oracle outcome
04:03
10 dollars is an example
Z
04:04
Zack
In reply to this message
yes, you are right. this is clever reasoning.
low volume markets are less important.
high volume markets have stake-holders who will make sure it works right, even if the reward was only $0.10.
MF
04:04
Mr Flintstone
yep
Z
04:05
Zack
This makes me think we can safely lower the oracle initial liquidity to be < $1.
04:05
maybe we can just set it to $0?
MF
04:05
Mr Flintstone
I would caution at 0 cuz people are gonna for sure spam attack us
Z
04:05
Zack
there is still a miner fee they have to pay. that should prevent spam.
MF
04:06
Mr Flintstone
oh, true
04:07
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
I've seen those I guess I'm asking if there is an effort to make them pretty and shiney?
Z
04:09
Zack
I may be the one typing most of the software, but the important work is done in little realizations like Mr Flinstone just had.

You can't pay people to do this.

This is why I think the development for Amoveo is decentralized.
MF
04:11
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
no initiatives that I know of
OK
04:11
O K
In reply to this message
We would love to have these look better dmbr0
04:14
Deleted Account
I'll come up with some ideas and post them
04:16
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
😍
OK
04:25
O K
Hey Zack, can basically any file be uploaded into the light wallet as a private key? Does it only read the first 32 bytes? It seems to work, but I wanted to confirm before I do anything like that. Like a keyfile.
Z
04:43
Zack
In reply to this message
I am not sure.
I guess you could test it out by editing the 50th byte, and then seeing if it generates the same pubkey
OK
04:43
O K
Well I used a screenshot, for instance.
04:43
I loaded it twice, on separate nodes. It loaded the same pubkey
04:43
I'll try changing the 50th byte
Z
04:44
Zack
a screenshot seems risky. the first 32 bytes might be meta data for images with less entropy than you need.
OK
04:44
O K
Good point
Z
04:44
Zack
a sha256 hash of a screenshot would be very secure
04:45
I think... I guess it depends how much customization you do
04:46
maybe I should update it so if you have more than 32 bytes in the file, it should take the sha256 of the entire file's contents
OK
04:46
O K
In reply to this message
That would be cool, unless someone else has aleady been using a keyfile of sorts
Z
04:47
Zack
yes
04:51
Deleted Account
Jesus, pop into telegram and 500+ new messages lol
MF
05:05
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
yeah it has been an active day
J|
05:09
Jun Dam | 100x Trade | bitcashBank
In reply to this message
Thx for answers. Re: real value. What is the difference between real value vs perceived value to you if any ? If there is a difference what is more important?
OK
05:10
O K
In reply to this message
Value is subjective. The only value that is not subjective is the value of your own life, because if you didn't value it you would not be here. It's axiomatic.
MF
05:15
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
excited to see
J|
05:53
Jun Dam | 100x Trade | bitcashBank
In reply to this message
Is the difference between subjective and objective value the same as the difference between real and perceived value?
Z
05:54
Zack
It is usually more useful to talk about market price.
06:00
I just did the tx that is invalid for nodes that haven't updated since the hard fork.
Many of the nodes will get stuck now.
Once you update, the node will sync again.
06:01
This fixes a bug in the oracle.
The problem was if someone made a bet in the oracle, and then deleted the account that made the bet.
It made it impossible for us to close the oracle.

Now it is fixed, but it is a hard fork.
ŽM
06:02
Živojin Mirić
you fixed it premanently or just that one case?
J|
06:02
Jun Dam | 100x Trade | bitcashBank
In reply to this message
Thx for your answers. 1) & 2) scarcity and value of veo 3)
Z
06:03
Zack
In reply to this message
permanently.
ŽM
06:03
Živojin Mirić
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
113.5 KB
J|
06:09
Jun Dam | 100x Trade | bitcashBank
In reply to this message
3) Is market capitalization always a good measure of value? Is it reasonable that some people might use mkt cap to determine if a token is cheap or expensive? 4)&5) how important is the efficiency of mining compared to other features of system?
Z
06:11
Zack
I am not sure what you mean by "value".
We need a big market cap if we want to win the blockchain prediction market competition.

The efficiency of mining is critical.
06:22
Deleted Account
If your goal is network growth (and subsequently increasing market cap), then "mining efficiency" (lowering miners' profits) should be a lower priority than just making a widely usable and stable network. Incentivized mining is what gives these networks intrinsic value in the first place, as without an acceptable profit motive miners will just move on to a competitor.
Z
06:25
Zack
Mining is happening pretty slowly, and the block that got mined is empty of txs.
Maybe the update failed.
06:28
The fork succeeded.
06:28
Deleted Account
Blockchains grow in market cap when their users are incentivized to hold the token rather than exchange it for other currencies. Amoveo has a lot of features (ie oracle prediction markets) whose usefulness depends on having enough users participating to make them valuable. Until we get to the point that people are using Amoveo for those valued features, there are only speculative incentives to be a user of Amoveo vs other blockchains. That's why it's important to retain miner profits in the beginning until you hit that critical mass, so long as you don't sacrifice decentralization in the process (like allowing for ASICS or a single dominant mining pool)
MF
06:29
Mr Flintstone
FYI for everyone here, I think the goal is to have ASICs for amoveo
06:29
so that we are protected from attack
06:29
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
😅
MF
06:29
Mr Flintstone
since we have a unique PoW, it makes sense to use ASICs to protect us from GPU farms
06:30
malicious gpu farms that is
06:30
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
True. So long as the consolidation of ASIC ownership doesn't allow for malicious ASIC farms in its stead, which is likely to be the case
Z
06:31
Zack
For this hard update, it looks like you need to do make prod-clean and resync all the blocks.
MF
06:33
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
much more painful to destroy the market value of the only chain your asic can mine on than to destroy the market value of a chain with your gpu
06:33
cuz then you can switch and move on
Z
06:34
Zack
In reply to this message
usability, stability, and mining efficiency are all important.

Yes, obviously we need to pay miners to mine.
06:34
In reply to this message
I don't know what you mean, "retain miner profits".
06:35
In reply to this message
you have it backwards.
We have a unique POW to make it easier to have ASICS.
MF
06:37
Mr Flintstone
fair
06:43
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
I mean to not interfere in changing variables like coin issuance rates that would decrease incentives for miners to mine and hold, rather than mine and sell.
06:48
Amoveo is very profitable to mine right now because there still exists a great deal of risk of the network never reaching meaningful scale, as well as a liquidity issue with not being able to sell VEO in any large quantities at the moment. This makes it good for small miners to jump in and accept that risk for small amounts, but bad for large mining farms since there's uncertainty about them ever being able to cash out. This is good because it creates a more distributed POW network initially, but one that will eventually balance out as more miners join in.
Z
06:49
Zack
You are focused on the wrong metric.
It does not matter how distributed the POW network is.
You don't understand the importance of low profit margins for the miners.
06:49
Deleted Account
The goal for Amoveo is more aggregate electricity being consumed, since this real-world cost provides the security basis for POW in the first place, right?
OK
06:50
O K
In reply to this message
Objective = real, subjective = perceived. All value is perceived.
06:50
Deleted Account
There's actually a good bit of volume being bought on discord since the ann
06:50
Deleted Account
And we want to avoid centralization of mining pools, as that can impact the network's ability to transact without being compromised?
Z
06:51
Zack
In reply to this message
POW's primary goal is to distribute tokens efficiently.
It provides security as a side-effect.
06:51
In reply to this message
Market price is an objective value.
OK
06:52
O K
In reply to this message
Different sense of the word value
06:52
But true
06:52
I usually just refer to that as "price" to differentiate
Z
06:53
Zack
sure
07:00
Looks like 9 out of 20 full nodes updated. The other 11 got left behind
07:03
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
I think that's backwards. Having tokens distributed efficiently is a strategy for creating an incentive structure for rewarding those who convert real-world costs (electricity and time) into preventing malicious actions on the network. Without the economic guarantees that the network won't be tampered with, there is no reason to use the network in the first place. Decentralization is just a means to that end.
WenMoonHow invited JDubya
JS
07:20
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Good point.
Z
07:20
Zack
If you guys don't like my design, feel free to launch a fork.
MF
07:23
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
what is the difference in practical application to amoveo that comes from this difference in philosophy?
07:23
I’m just trying to get at what exactly was the origin of this debate
Sam321 joined group by link from Group
07:29
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Changing the block reward this early on may harm the incentive structure that is intended to both grow and secure the network in the name of more fair distribution of tokens. Seemingly, this proposal is based on Zack's assumption that distribution of tokens is the priority of a blockchain network rather than network security. I like Amoveo's design, I enjoy discussing it and want it to succeed because it's very well thought out, and there's no practical difference between philosophies so long as it doesn't result in network disincentives being created.
MF
07:30
Mr Flintstone
cool thanks
07:30
yeah, I thought this might be about block reward.
07:31
we’ll see how people feel about block reward when they have to bet actual veo
07:31
hopefully people bet in a way that keeps network incentives in harmony
07:32
I tend to agree that we shouldn’t fuck with the block reward fwiw
07:33
I’m excited because for the first time, with amoveo, we’ll be able to see how people with real skin in the game choose how the protocol runs, to a certain extent
07:34
we haven’t really known the answer to: if people had to bet on what would be best, how would they choose the variables that define how the chain functions
07:35
instead, we’ve relied on a vague notion of consensus which typically means we’re not gonna change anything that’s already hard coded if it’s too controversial
J|
08:18
Jun Dam | 100x Trade | bitcashBank
In reply to this message
Does perceived value (whether for utility or speculative) drive price & market cap? Btw where do I learn more about this prediction market competition? Thx
IP
08:48
I P
updated my node
08:49
fork was kind of unexpected, but runs fine now
OK
08:49
O K
In reply to this message
Did you have to make prod-clean
IP
08:49
I P
In reply to this message
well yeah i did it in case
08:50
i did the whole sequence you told me before
08:52
Why does it continue spamming all the time about oracle winning?
08:52
Z
08:53
Zack
In reply to this message
The problem is that if you are running the old code, and you download the new block. It looks invalid.
So you add that block hash to the list of block hashes who's blocks we will ignore from now on.
Then after you update, you still won't accept that block. Because it's hash is still in the list.
So you need to clean.
IP
08:53
I P
i don't mind but why is this happening
Z
08:53
Zack
In reply to this message
Because some nodes have those txs but can't make any block. So they keep sending those txs to you.

Once everyone updates, it will stop.
IP
08:54
I P
ah, now i see, thank you
OK
08:54
O K
Hmm, so the spamming will continue, but this time it won't affect us?
Z
08:55
Zack
I should delete that print statement.
OK
08:55
O K
I'm surprised the top height nodes continue to talk to any node not synced
MF
08:55
Mr Flintstone
for the future maybe it makes sense to change the pinned message to upcoming fork?
Z
08:55
Zack
We are ignoring the invalid txs from the nodes running old software
MF
08:55
Mr Flintstone
we had like 500+ messages today so not surprising if someone missed it
08:56
also perhaps missed your twitter
Z
08:56
Zack
In reply to this message
A lot of info is pushed, not pulled. Maybe the problem is that the unsynced nodes are pushing txs
IP
08:56
I P
well i mean you can't expect that people will update all nodes at once when you post that there is a fork in twitter
Z
08:56
Zack
In reply to this message
Good idea
08:57
I spoke directly to sy and amoveopool to make sure that the mining pools wouldn't waste work.
OK
08:57
O K
In reply to this message
This is useful to know, it seems that even in the event of a hard fork the nodes still talk — isn't this a potential issue?
Z
08:57
Zack
It isn't so important that everyone anyone else update the same day
MF
08:57
Mr Flintstone
yeah, just could be unfortunate for some solo miners is all
Z
08:59
Zack
In reply to this message
If talking to old nodes was an issue, then an attacker could do whatever the old nodes are doing to attack us.

As long as we are secure from purposeful attacks, we will also be secure from accidental attacks
08:59
In reply to this message
None in the past 500 blocks
MF
09:00
Mr Flintstone
damn lol wow
09:00
nvm then
IP
09:01
I P
diff is too high for solomining
09:01
and it is only going up
S
10:09
Sy
All Pools are updated, that's all we need
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Deleted invited Deleted Account
IP
10:40
I P
In reply to this message
Top height = 18657

Number of top height peers = 12
10:40
looks good
10:40
most of active nodes did the update, not only pools
Sam joined group by link from Group
J
11:13
Jim
In reply to this message
There are many classes of investors to consider. Market cap is one metric. Others are, eg, network usefulness (NTV), number of active users, GitHub activity (VEO sure leads here), composition of dev team, round participation (for VC like stuff), “expert opinion”, etc. There is growing consensus that the CMC monopoly (listing tokens by market cap) may not be the right idea to go with
11:21
If playing the "market cap game" lockups are the way to go. Reducing monetary velocity directly increases price, all else equal. This is why "masternodes" are so popular. This price increase is not enduring, however without a proper network/community
11:26
To maximize VEO'S usefulness and thus "terminal value", I don't suggest doing that, but instead suggest building a proper community, providing mkt liquidity (at a loss if need be - this could include filling other people's bets on markets which are not necessarily profitable for you), and in increasing adoption. Just my thoughts. The community decides.
Will joined group by link from Group
S
11:47
Sebsebzen
In reply to this message
Absolutely my opinion too
hardtotell joined group by link from Group
B
13:35
Ben
btw. are governance varianbles working already?
14:50
Deleted Account
this group address is ? How to get the share url ? I used to mac telegram app
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Deleted invited Deleted Account
14:57
Deleted Account
our team gets bigger
14:57
Deleted Account
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
👍, 43.0 KB
M
15:37
Minieep21
There has been quite a nice boost in exposure and total number of members recently
IP
15:37
I P
In reply to this message
zack made a post on btctalk
15:37
don't know if it is a good or a bad thing
15:38
the first reply he got was about bounty=) 2nd about that it is a scam because started before btctalk ann =)))))
15:39
so you can imagine what kind of people are bulk on btctalk
M
15:40
Minieep21
Yea I saw that. The place is full of crap these days
IP
15:46
I P
In reply to this message
99% new coins there are either an outright scam, bad ico or just pointless clones. Same goes for people there
A
15:50
Aries
@kitty123 preach!
M
15:51
Minieep21
Need a website, I'd be all over it if I had the skills
A
15:52
Aries
let them all fail, this Blockchain will be around for eons.
IP
15:53
I P
In reply to this message
well we all can agree that veo needs a good UI. This includes a website
15:54
i hope that people with experience on such stuff join our community
A
15:54
Aries
I think that the current UI is a plus,
15:56
This is not a nonsense ICO, made to look pretty, or led by a visionary. Bitcoin had no glitter when it was released.
IP
15:57
I P
In reply to this message
true! but we can all agree that better UI wouldn't hurt
A
15:58
Aries
Why,
15:58
this is perfect
IP
15:58
I P
well humans tend to like nice and glittery things=)
A
15:58
Aries
Developers doing their own due deligeance into Amoveo,
15:59
well I'm not for those humans, I'm for the bringing down the central banks with no glitter.
16:00
Look at how Bitcoin was started,
16:01
developers and early adopters enriching themselves and building the ecosystem for Bitcoin.
16:01
It is not Zack's responsiblity to make a nice and glittery UI.
IP
16:03
I P
In reply to this message
true. But it would be cool if Zack was not the obly dev. I only hope that many more people will join the project and help with UI dev, website and all that other non-core stuff
Villivodka joined group by link from Group
Rlyyy (Mr Green) joined group by link from Group
S
17:16
Sebsebzen
Zack can hire a team in 7 months
17:16
for example
Deleted joined group by link from Group
B
17:37
Ben
as the community grow there will be helping hands.
Z
17:48
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes
M
18:10
Minieep21
Many new buyers in the discord channel. Can anyone confirm trades being finalised?
Z
18:21
Zack
In reply to this message
I think the new people are coming more from Twitter than bitcoin talk.
A couple of my recent posts were fairly popular.
18:21
In reply to this message
Yes.
18:24
In reply to this message
We want a bigger market cap because it will make the price more stable which will make the prediction markets more useful for a larger set of applications. And it will give us more money with which we can participate in the markets.

Lockups don't solve this problem, because the locked up money can't be used in markets simultaneously.
AB
18:25
Asda Bayor
youre saying, increase block reward leads to more circulating supply and a higher market valuation?
Z
18:25
Zack
In reply to this message
Duplicating information just increases maintenance costs.

You can already look everything up on github
C(
18:26
CUG (FH)
I don’t think market cap is the strongest correlation to stability
J
18:27
Jim
In reply to this message
You mean you want more liquidity (avg daily trading volume) - that creates stability. Mkt cap is correlated, but not always (PACcoin, lol)
Z
18:28
Zack
In reply to this message
I am not planning to hire anyone. Amoveo is a tool that makes hierarchies like employment obsolete. We will use amoveo to pay people to work on amoveo.
18:29
In reply to this message
There is some ideal block reward for the fastest growing market cap.
If the reward is higher or lower than the ideal amount, then the market cap grows more slowly or shrinks.
C(
18:30
CUG (FH)
It’s an option to hire people to speed up the process to transition into amoveo being able to pay people to make employment obsolete
Z
18:31
Zack
In reply to this message
It's not just about stability.

If we want to have a prediction market with $10 million of bets, then we would need the market cap of amoveo to be even bigger than $10 million.
18:31
In reply to this message
No.
C(
18:32
CUG (FH)
That’s correct- but there have to be constantly aligned incentives for people
JiuCrypto joined group by link from Group
Z
18:32
Zack
In reply to this message
I am not going to hire anyone.
C(
18:32
CUG (FH)
I just laid out an option
18:32
You can proceed as you want
18:34
I think your market cap argument doesn’t take all incentives into account (specifically short term). Game theoretically this could be a bottle neck to grow amoveo
AB
18:37
Asda Bayor
In reply to this message
do you have some data on this?
Z
18:39
Zack
In reply to this message
I don't use data. I use math.
thomas s joined group by link from Group
AB
18:42
Asda Bayor
so whats the ideal block reward?
Z
18:43
Zack
a balance between the size that would make the market cap grows fastest, and the size that would make the token value increase most.
J
18:43
Jim
In reply to this message
I see. Will try to understand this more.
18:45
Please put something into the docs to help explain this line of reasoning, using some models if need be
Deleted joined group by link from Group
OK
19:30
O K
Are all the discord links expired?
Z
19:30
Zack
https://discord.gg/a52szJw
This one will never expire.
OK
19:31
O K
Saved, thank you
S
20:56
Sy
Shouldn't the market cap just stay the same if we increase the reward? More veo, lower price, same sum
20:56
Not taking the damage into account it might do...
OK
20:59
O K
In reply to this message
Or "less increased" of a price instead of lower. Absolutely.
S
21:04
Sy
I think it doesn't matter at all in the long run and will just hurt every trader who bought before...
21:05
It is true that the psychological barrier is higher but I think it's just like btc, ppl will get used to it and use it anyway
Z
21:07
Zack
In reply to this message
If the amount of mining stays the same, it would be bad.

But if the amount of mining doubles, then it would be good. Now the market cap is growing faster.
S
21:08
Sy
The amount of mining doesn't change the amount of coins tho, block target is still fixed, it would just change the diff. What am I missing?
Z
21:09
Zack
It's the same as asking, why don't we decrease the block reward by by a factor of 10x?
OK
21:09
O K
You can't beat supply and demand with complicated stories
Z
21:09
Zack
If the block reward was smaller, then less people would mine.
S
21:09
Sy
Nope it isn't...lol
Z
21:09
Zack
If less electricity is being converted into Veo, then the market cap is growing more slowly.
S
21:10
Sy
Miner do care the least about block reward amount, it can be 1 or 10000 what matters for miner is the direct USD conversion
OK
21:10
O K
You can't "grow" a market cap like that. Its just a function of price and supply. If you increase supply more quickly, you grow price less quickly
Z
21:11
Zack
Maybe you would prefer a POS coin OK?
If you think mining isn't how value is distributed. Then why participate in a pow blockchain?
S
21:11
Sy
With mining you calculate in USD per day Vs power, I don't give a damn about how many coins i have or generate if the result is good
OK
21:12
O K
In reply to this message
No, I just prefer a consistent block reward that builds confidence around the coin
21:13
The market cap is already growing extremely rapidly. If you are correct, it will grow more extremely rapidly. If I am correct, at best it will have no positive impact. At worst it will have an extremely negative impact.
Z
21:13
Zack
In reply to this message
If the block reward was lowered to 0.1 Veo, you think that your daily profit would be unchanged in USD terms?

If that is true, then that means the value of a Veo would be 10x higher. So our market cap would be about $50 million.
S
21:14
Sy
Aand I'm out, you just became unreasonable
21:14
I thought you liked math...
AS
21:14
Aizen Sou
Adoption has nothing to do with block reward, Zack
MF
21:17
Mr Flintstone
a blockchain needs to have users
21:17
if users do not like an increasing block reward they will not use the chain
21:17
it is my guess and many others’ that this is the case
21:17
which is why we’re gonna bet on the side that doesn’t increase block reward
Z
21:18
Zack
There are no users yet. Only miners and speculators.
MF
21:18
Mr Flintstone
in order for amoveo to be successful it needs users
21:18
the users cannot be off put by an increasingly inflationary policy
OK
21:18
O K
In reply to this message
These are your community, your marketing team
21:19
And your first users
J
21:19
Jim
Markets for future block rewards are the first use case for VEO 😁
Z
21:19
Zack
It seems to me that users have the opposite interest of current miners and speculators.
Users want an accessible currency with high market cap and stable price.
Current speculators want a walled garden to have a secure source of income.
MF
21:19
Mr Flintstone
we want to maximize the price of veo is all
21:20
individuals are less concerned about market cap increase and more concerned about price per token increase generally
OK
21:20
O K
How do you know how many of the people you attribute to be speculators are not excited to be users? Every day more people buy in, and you want to inflate their value away
MF
21:20
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
whether or not this is optimal, it is the case
Z
21:20
Zack
Over rewarding the old users is the same thing as punishing new users.
OK
21:20
O K
No it isn't
21:21
Value is subjective, there is no such thing as "over rewarding"
21:21
It's relative to your eyes only
AS
21:21
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
Changing block reward to higher or lower will definitely alter the price. So your idea about stable price isn't correct anymore.
OK
21:21
O K
"That CEO makes 'too much' money!"
MF
21:22
Mr Flintstone
zacks value system is not the exact same as the community’s and that is ok
Z
21:22
Zack
The price has gone more than 10x in 2 months.
How quickly do you think the price per Veo should grow?
MF
21:23
Mr Flintstone
I don’t think we should be too concerned over or disagreements because what is going to happen will happen tangibly
OK
21:23
O K
Let's talk about actions that grow market cap, risk involved in achieving them, and effort needed. I think a coinmarketcap listing is an obvious one that is low risk. Exchange is another one.
21:23
User interface, is probably the lowest risk
Z
21:23
Zack
These first 2 months were very high risk. So I think this price increase rate is acceptable for now.
But the risk is decreasing, so it doesn't make sense to keep the price increase happening so fast.
OK
21:24
O K
There is too much work to be done to be rolling the dice on magic formulas when growth is very fast already
Z
21:24
Zack
I agree we shouldn't mess with the block reward until we are on an exchange.
But I think that waiting till then to talk about it isn't so good. These conversations take time.
21:25
Talk is cheap.
We will learn what the community really wants once this is in the Oracle and we can put our money where our mouth is.
MF
21:26
Mr Flintstone
from a perspective of winning the prediction market competition, one thing I will say about monotonically decreasing block rewards is that you get a competitive advantage in the beginning because you front load the attention / resource allocation
21:26
In reply to this message
yeah exactly
OK
21:26
O K
In reply to this message
Risk is something that affects supply. Think about drugs and drug prohibition. Why does risk really make prices go up?
21:26
It is not the only reason price goes up.
21:26
Its just affecting the simple age old formula. Supply and demand.
MF
21:26
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
agreed. while we should obviously discuss these things we shouldn’t get caught up in our differences
J
21:27
Jim
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
👍, 32.3 KB
OK
21:27
O K
So for risk to be going down (a good thing), and price to be going up (a market thing) either the supply has decreased (it hasn't) or demand has increased (a good thing in my opinion)
Z
21:31
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes. Advertising can make Veo more valuable. We can agree on this.
21:33
Maybe we should make some markets to incentivize advertising.

Or I could do free consulting with an advertisement firm to help them set up a market so they can get paid for advertising.
21:33
What would the Oracle ask?
"Amoveo reddit has more than 4000 subscribers."
MF
21:33
Mr Flintstone
you can game that
OK
21:33
O K
Yeah, very easily gamed
MF
21:33
Mr Flintstone
but I agree
OK
21:33
O K
Unfortunately
Z
21:34
Zack
So what should the Oracle ask?
MF
21:34
Mr Flintstone
Markets to incentivize advertising are a good idea
Z
21:34
Zack
Maybe a binary derivative is as good as it gets?
21:34
On the price of Veo
MF
21:34
Mr Flintstone
yeah
21:35
or we could trust an agency a little
21:35
specifically name them in the oracle question
21:35
and ask them to increase follower count to 2000
21:35
Or 4000
21:35
or whatever
Z
21:35
Zack
How about we hire them to feed messages onto our competitors forums?
MF
21:35
Mr Flintstone
lol I do not think we need to get underhanded
21:35
also difficult to verify objectively
21:36
In reply to this message
for this, no one will match unless they trust the ad agency
OK
21:36
O K
In reply to this message
In the long run, the only thing Amoveo needs to win, is to Be The Best
Z
21:36
Zack
I think that anyone investing in augur or aeternity is going to be orders of magnitude easier to get involved with amoveo.
OK
21:36
O K
Post-css I'm on board
Z
21:37
Zack
Maybe we do need a road map. Order does matter
OK
21:38
O K
In reply to this message
Even if it didn't, new members seem to think it's important, so may affect demand. Build order probably does matter though. I learned that from starcraft
21:38
How's the exchange coming along by the way Zack?
MF
21:40
Mr Flintstone
I’m not sure we need a road map
Z
21:40
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-exchange/blob/master/docs/todo.md

I was distracted for a week, but it is about 2/3 of the way to a usable first version.
MF
21:40
Mr Flintstone
this chain is pretty much done, aside from maybe like sharding if we need on chain tx throughput?
Z
21:41
Zack
In reply to this message
The blockchain is just the first layer.
We need to write smart contracts for more kinds of markets for example.
MF
21:41
Mr Flintstone
yeah that’s true
21:41
but like, smart contract development isn’t really in ethereum foundations roadmap for example
21:41
or idk maybe it is
Z
21:42
Zack
Trustlessly moving smart contracts from a long path to a short path will be important too.
21:42
Amoveo isn't ethereum.
MF
21:42
Mr Flintstone
it is a smart contract platform
21:42
niche
21:42
but still
Z
21:43
Zack
Ethereum has sub currencies. So there are sub communities to make apps.
Amoveo has dominant assurance contracts.
So we are all in this together.
MF
21:43
Mr Flintstone
Ok. would probably make sense to have a list of the kinds of markets we need to develop
Z
21:44
Zack
Software is never done.
We must always strive for excellence.
MF
21:45
Mr Flintstone
since we can lower initial oracle liquidity, some non-binary derivatives become cheaper to implement
21:45
like cfd
21:45
since we have one oracle for each bit in the reference price
Z
21:45
Zack
Yes, you are right. It makes cfd much more affordable
MF
21:47
Mr Flintstone
for anyone reading cfd = cash for difference. two parties agree on a notional and a reference price, and one goes long and one short. they pay each other the change in price times the notional depending on who won
AS
21:57
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
Agree, Zack
23:01
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
how can you do math without data???
23:04
are Zack's incentives in Amoveo aligned towards increasing block reward? definitely seems like that.
Z
23:04
Zack
statisticians can make the data say anything.
A game theoretical proof cannot lie.
Miami Bitch joined group by link from Group
MB
23:20
Miami Bitch
hi all
MF
23:25
Mr Flintstone
hello
OK
23:25
O K
Sup Max
finex joined group by link from Group
23:31
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
now you are using specific cases to justify your generic statement.
MB
23:43
Miami Bitch
guys, i think you need transformate this group to supergroup and make new normal link
Z
23:43
Zack
It is a super group
MB
23:44
Miami Bitch
because invite link is not comfortable
23:44
got it
MB
23:44
Miami Bitch
i mean for example: t.me/amoveo
OK
23:44
O K
In reply to this message
Someone with one of the amoveo domains could make a subdomain that relocates here
Z
23:44
Zack
I didn't know about this before
OK
23:44
O K
In reply to this message
True that would be better
Z
23:45
Zack
How do I do this?
MB
23:45
Miami Bitch
manage group
Z
23:45
Zack
I don't see it in any options
MB
23:45
Miami Bitch
public group
23:46
Z
23:46
Zack
MB
23:47
Miami Bitch
but after you need change this link on your other socials
23:47
from pc i see this
23:47
in group info
Z
23:47
Zack
https://t.me/amoveo
MB
23:48
Miami Bitch
nice
Z
23:48
Zack
Got it. Thanks for the help max profit
MB
23:48
Miami Bitch
no problem
23:48
don't forget about update this link on your other socials=)
Z
23:48
Zack
Right
MB
23:50
Miami Bitch
and i have one question:
when i can see your site? =)
23:50
approximately
Z
23:50
Zack
There are many websites related to amoveo
MB
23:53
Miami Bitch
which for example?
23:53
i see only github
23:53
=(
MB
23:53
Miami Bitch
thank you=)
Z
23:54
Zack
Github links to a lot of them
2 May 2018
MB
00:31
Miami Bitch
guys, do you have advisers and when you plan to do marketing?
I
00:32
Iridescence
My guess is that Zack is personally not interested in marketing
LB
00:32
Luke B
What about changing the unit for VEO? Like artificially increasing the supply by moving the decimal point. Keeps everyones stake the same, keeps mkt cap the same but makes price more appealing to newcomers (also might give liquidity a boost)
MF
00:32
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
we were discussing strategies for using the amoveo blockchain to incentivize advertisers earlier
I
00:32
Iridescence
Marketing will probably be done by some other stakeholder
MF
00:32
Mr Flintstone
using a dominant assurance contract
00:33
In reply to this message
We can move the decimal point off chain
00:33
the current decimal point is arbitrary
MB
00:33
Miami Bitch
In reply to this message
i think the same=)
C
00:34
ChmunChabad
hi guys, little questions about the mining process.
a) currently i am running on windows. would you advice to switch to ubuntu for performance?
b) i am running 3 instances of the miner for 3x1080 ti (read, that would be better instead on instance for all 3 cards). that already stresses my computer. and the hasrate per GPU sinks way under what the cards archive running alone. and I get pretty ofter the error message: "Share Submitted - ERROR: Duplicate nonce submitted this work item."

are you guys running rigs mining the coin?
LB
00:34
Luke B
@Jbreezy0 exactly, don't change anything on chain but be much more friendly to newcomes so their entry isn't ~$180-225. Seems like liquidity on discord would go up this way and we would be more attractive to an exchange.
JS
00:34
Jon Snow
2more members and this channel will hit 500
OK
00:38
O K
In reply to this message
Dupe nonces will happen sometimes. A good randomstring will reduce the frequency of those, or running all cards in once instance of veominer
00:39
Would advise (x)ubuntu for performance specifically if CPU is your limiting factor
C
00:40
ChmunChabad
oh wow thank you. I move to a computer with more cpu and switch to ubuntu
00:40
had same seed for all 3 instances. so that makes sense
Z
00:41
Zack
In reply to this message
you can buy a fraction of a Veo.
00:42
Deleted Account
he just means it would be more socially acceptable being lower numbers like raven was. some people see they mine like nothing and quit.. which i dont mind. lol
00:42
i think
Z
00:43
Zack
In reply to this message
I like Lubuntu.
OK
00:44
O K
Is it less resource intensive?
LB
00:44
Luke B
Zack I agree and that is a pragmatic view, but many coins have done this with success. Maybe it is a psychological response (IOTA for example.. )
Z
00:44
Zack
yes, but only for ram. so it probably wont make any difference for mining.
OK
00:44
O K
I guess there is MATE too, plenty of low resource flavors
C
00:50
ChmunChabad
mhm then I gonna go with lubuntu
00:54
to the price discussion. if the coin can establish a value in the hundreds that would be a statement. the broad mass of newcomers is not able to realize marketcap or coin supply. the really only see price and percentage movements. most of them are like: wow 2 cents if this goes do a dollar.
but I am not here for that reason. just saw Zack's programming record and wanna join early
AS
01:17
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
@sebsebzen suggested it for a while. We could use mVEO as base unit from now on. Call it 1000 Zackoshis or so
MF
01:26
Mr Flintstone
mveo isn’t bad
CB
01:26
CeloStarter Bandits
yes.. it would make trade easier
01:26
for new traders
Tamer invited Tamer
B
01:59
Ben
i never had any problems during trade due to nomination of VEO
01:59
it is fine how it is currently
MB
02:14
Miami Bitch
guys
02:14
how i can choose all my 6 cards for mine?
02:14
should i make 6 bat files?
Z
02:14
Zack
I think you need a different terminal for each card
MB
02:15
Miami Bitch
ok thank you, can i use only 1 adress for mining?
Z
02:15
Zack
I think so yes. Just make the seed different for each one.
MB
02:17
Miami Bitch
AmoveoMinerGpuCuda.exe BPA3r0XDT1V8W4sB14YKyuu/PgC6ujjYooVVzq1q1s5b6CAKeu9oLfmxlplcPd+34kfZ1qx+Dwe3EeoPu0SpzcI= 0-5
02:19
i maked it for each and i pointed in bat file like this ^
02:19
it will be right?
02:19
.exe base 1
.exe base 2
02:22
how i should use it for right?
OK
02:24
O K
In reply to this message
If you use a bat file you only need 1 bat file
MB
02:24
Miami Bitch
In reply to this message
ok, but then how i can use all my 6 cards?
OK
02:25
O K
If you want to use the old miner, the bat file would be like
02:26
In reply to this message
this
02:26
In reply to this message
Or like this to resolve crashes
02:26
That would start multiple cmd for you with 1 bat file
02:27
Using phamhuong92/veominer is another option
MB
02:40
Miami Bitch
In reply to this message
thank you, all right at now. I did it, but...
i lossed hashrate for each gpu
for example:
gpu had about 1.3 Gh, but at now it have only 0.7 Gh
02:40
it is normal?
OK
02:41
O K
Which miner?
MB
02:41
Miami Bitch
amoveominergpucuda
02:41
is it worse?
02:42
Photo
508×38
and i get it
OK
02:42
O K
Are all your GPU the same brand/type? All nvidia?
MB
02:43
Miami Bitch
1066 yes
OK
02:43
O K
In reply to this message
Try 1.3
MB
02:43
Miami Bitch
ok
OK
02:43
O K
You can run 'all' in one cmd
MB
02:47
Miami Bitch
got it, i will try
C
03:22
ChmunChabad
@wldn_libre without surly knowing what I say: might you start all your instances with the same seed?
03:22
don't know if it helps with the error but that was what I was suggested
03:23
also tried to run 3 cards in one instance, didn't work, only 2. so i am switching OS right now
OK
03:33
O K
In reply to this message
It would be awesome if you made these translations and made a PR to the github
04:03
Deleted Account
Amd Miners .. how to change the pool on veominer plz ? Tried the command in the readme and didn't succeed it's by default on amoveopool2 I didn't get any reward since yesterday
OK
04:06
O K
Are you missing a reward you were expecting? You can DM me the first 5 of your account and I will check for you.
04:24
Deleted Account
BDpG5 I just start mining veo .. don't know a lot .. but I was mining for couple of hours and I haven't any tracking on it only getting accepted submission in my miner .. thanks !
OK
04:25
O K
The pool has a conservative number of blocks before it considers a block confirmed, around 50 blocks.
04:26
So if you start mining on Block 18750, you won't notice your balance start going up until 18800.
04:26
If you stopped mining at 18800, it wouldn't stop going up until 18850
04:27
Deleted Account
Oh ok I c
04:28
Is there anyway to check my hashrate on the pool ? For example I'm running 6 x Rx 580 on it with a 4K mhash/a .. I wanna have an idea about how much that will rewards me on a day ?
OK
04:29
O K
To check your hashrate on the pool, you go to amoveopool2.com/miner and input your address
04:29
Deleted Account
I did and got nothing :(
OK
04:29
O K
It doesn't show a hashrate? One moment
04:31
04:32
Deleted Account
Oh ok got it thanks !!! I was using a wrong path .. amoveopool2.com/wallet
04:33
Thanks a lot :) I told u I'm pretty new on that coin
04:33
Last query please is there any calculator ?
OK
04:33
O K
If 4.2 TH gives you 0.5 block every 10 minutes, 4.2GH/s will give you 0.5 block every 7 days
04:34
(10,000 minutes, divided by 60 minutes in an hour, divided by 24 hours a day)
04:34
Make sense?
04:35
Deleted Account
Yes .. got it didn't new how to calculate it thanks
04:36
And is there an exchange available ? Or only p2p sells ? In order to purchase some .. I heard it's a huge promoting project
OK
04:36
O K
The discord is OTC trading for now, until Zack finishes the exchange
04:37
Deleted Account
Nice
04:37
Thanks for your help bro
OK
04:37
O K
yw : )
04:53
Deleted Account
is it S9 resistant ? It's the same algo no ?
04:53
Iv seen some people trying to run it on their S9
Z
04:54
Zack
What is S9?
Z
04:55
Zack
No. Bitcoin Asics do not work for Amoveo.
05:04
Deleted Account
Tell me please how it won't ? Is it the same sh256 based algo right.?
OK
05:06
O K
Amoveo is single-sha256, btc is double-sha256
Z
05:14
Zack
Also amoveo headers are shorter.
A bitcoin header has 4 rounds of hashing. And amoveo header has only 1 round.
It is 4x simpler to compute.
Z
05:43
Zack
In reply to this message
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amoveo/comments/8g5t7h/mining_pool_issues/

It looks like Veominer still only works for amoveopool2.
Maybe you should change the url where you accept work, to force Phan Huong to fix this.

If a double-spend happens for any reason, the community will probably end up blaming you.
OK
05:47
O K
I am surprised actually that you haven't run with the hosts file idea... should be very easy
Z
05:48
Zack
Maybe you should increase your mining fee to 30% until the portion of mining power decreases below 50%.
OK
05:49
O K
Hmm
AS
05:53
Aizen Sou
Or tell Sy to open his pool to public
Z
05:53
Zack
In reply to this message
That doesn't improve the situation.
The problem is that the closed source mining software can only connect to AmoveoPool2.
AS
05:53
Aizen Sou
Miners just love pools with stats and nice frontend, Zack
05:54
Sy has his own miner as well and if he opens his pool he will have to public the compatible miner
Z
05:57
Zack
@Simon3456 is this true?
Why not open source your miner?
Veominer has problems, we need a better alternative.
S
06:01
Sy
it has been known from day 1 that we use a closed source miner
06:02
aswell what address my pool has and other stuff
Z
06:02
Zack
Is your miner much faster than veominer?
S
06:02
Sy
na
06:02
they are pretty much the same now
06:02
it runs a bit more comfortable, no hassle with multiple gpus
Z
06:03
Zack
So it sounds like it is in your interest to share it.
S
06:03
Sy
unless you are crazy enough to mix amd & nvdia ofc xD
06:03
na it isnt unless i open the pool up to the public aswell
06:03
otherwise ap2 will just grow even faster
Z
06:03
Zack
Why would you med to open the pool?
06:03
Need*
S
06:03
Sy
why would i want more hashrate on the net?
06:03
diff goes up, everyone gets less
Z
06:03
Zack
I don't see how it would increase the hashrate
S
06:04
Sy
doesnt really matter if you see it or not
Z
06:04
Zack
Right now we have 60% in amoveopool2.
This is bad for everyone holding Veo.
If you shared your miner, then these people could switch to nonsense pool and to my pool.
S
06:05
Sy
buuut they wouldnt
MF
06:05
Mr Flintstone
would modding a bitcoin asic to be amoveo compatible be basically impossible?
06:05
not familiar with hardware
S
06:05
Sy
since all miners want frequent payouts and thus use the big pools
06:05
thats the keyword, hardware
06:05
you cant change the purpose of asics
06:05
they are hard wired to do one thing and one thing only
MF
06:05
Mr Flintstone
but like in theory if amoveo were the same pow as bitcoin, except only sha256 once rather than twice
06:05
you could deconstruct the asic
S
06:05
Sy
no
06:06
you can deconstruct an asic as much as you can deconstruct your cpu
Z
06:06
Zack
Any pool with more than 5% hash power will pay out at the same speed as the rest.

Amoveopool2 is the exception, it has a massive 50 block delay.
S
06:06
Sy
you still try to argue human behavior with logic, find your error...
Z
06:07
Zack
Bitcoin has many small pools, none are over 50%.
OK
06:07
O K
In reply to this message
this is as simple as saying "this IP means that IP" right? What's wrong with this
Z
06:08
Zack
I used to have 10-20% hashpower in my pool consistently, until the day Veominer showed up.
Now everyone only uses Amovepool2.
S
06:08
Sy
ap2 is increasing rapidly, almost 70%
Z
06:09
Zack
it seems to me that if the best mining software was able to switch pools, then people would use my pool and nonsense pool again.
Just looking at historical trends
S
06:09
Sy
i can tell you that most miners will always mine at the biggest pool
Z
06:10
Zack
ap2 is only increasing because the only miner we have can only connect to ap2.
So any new miners only have 1 choice of mining pool.
06:11
If the number of miners grows, then ap2 would have to get bigger now.
This is the one and only choice for new miners.
S
06:11
Sy
we didnt reach the conclusion yet that we should release the miner
06:12
you wouldnt be happy with the current version anway, only runs with our pool
OK
06:12
O K
"No choice" not true — they can use the open source miner, or they can buy @Iridescence
S
06:12
Sy
so same same but different ^^
Z
06:12
Zack
if it is open source, it is easy to make it compatible with everyone.
OK
06:12
O K
Maybe you could pay @Iridescence to design one for you
S
06:12
Sy
yeah...thats why you got no real working miner xD
06:13
there are a few open source that just need some adjustments to run multiple gpus for example yet nobody fixes it
06:13
some ppl here are mining with 60 gpus and have no clue what a diff adjust is...sadly thats how it is
I
06:13
Iridescence
I'm thinking of open sourcing my miner...
06:13
but I don't want to deal with people asking me how to make it work 😂
S
06:13
Sy
hrhr
06:13
open source it and walk away :D
I
06:13
Iridescence
also it currently only works for CUDA
06:13
NVIDIA
06:13
not AMD
S
06:14
Sy
someone can fork it and modify
I
06:14
Iridescence
meh yeah
06:14
i'll think about it
S
06:14
Sy
mine on the other hand is linux only...
I
06:14
Iridescence
same
06:14
haha
S
06:14
Sy
but you can probably compile it with minigw or something
I
06:14
Iridescence
Windows AMD hisssss
06:14
Deleted Account
if your revenue stream from miner sales have dropped then you can do it at no personal loss
I
06:14
Iridescence
That's why I just left the miner stuff to Mandelhoff / Pham Huong
OK
06:15
O K
Just put in the readme LEAVE ME ALONE!!
S
06:15
Sy
abandoned project ^^
I
06:15
Iridescence
Your mother was a whore
OK
06:15
O K
Xd
06:15
Deleted Account
lol
I
06:16
Iridescence
This miner will steal your VEO
OK
06:16
O K
Mines for 72 seconsd for miner, rest for developer
06:17
Deleted Account
i bet that if @potat_o puts on his website on bold that he will steal people's veo - he will still have >50% hash. most folks hardly read stuff
I
06:17
Iridescence
That being said
06:17
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
haha
I
06:17
Iridescence
my miner can connect to all the pools
06:17
I've tried it out
S
06:17
Sy
reminds me of that one guy who was complaining about he stole his veo because payout is 0.5
I
06:17
Iridescence
It's not hard to do actually
D
06:17
Denis
In reply to this message
Maybe we should set up community bounty for releasing stable-working open source miner working with any pool, for any GPU vendor, that have releases for both OS?
S
06:17
Sy
na it isnt, i think zack is using /work aswell now
06:18
that was the only difference back when i tried, ap2 is using /work and zack isnt
Z
06:18
Zack
The miner I wrote accepts both the original mining api, and it accepts the api that Mandel invented.
S
06:18
Sy
how fast is a 1070ti nowadays?
06:19
mandel and yours are identical..or at least they used to be, i could switch pools however i liked
Z
06:19
Zack
the miner I wrote can connect directly the a full node without having to run a mining pool.
06:19
the pool api was identical with a subset of the full node api.
06:19
Mandel's api is different.
S
06:20
Sy
ah yeah...has been kinda useless from day 1 i joined since you can only connect to localhost
Z
06:24
Zack
OK can steal veo so easily now.
I wonder if this is a failed project.
OK
06:25
O K
Lol, pack it in boys
Z
06:25
Zack
Maybe I should take time to write a better GPU miner, then restart from genesis.
OK
06:26
O K
So much money has been spent on your project Zack, you will have pitchforks
06:26
Do you need me to work on the hosts file thing for you?
Z
06:27
Zack
or you can just change the url slightly so that veominer stops working.
OK
06:27
O K
Well, I don't find that to be particularly diplomatic. It's a shame PhamHuong is not here to talk to us
S
06:28
Sy
at some point you said to actually harm veo you need 1000 blocks in a row, now OK can steal veo easily?
Z
06:28
Zack
He responded on github to show that he understood the problem, and then he claimed that 1.3 fixed the problem.
S
06:28
Sy
i've had streaks of 17 blocks myself, nobody was crying about that....
Z
06:28
Zack
In reply to this message
If I said that, then I was mistaken, or you misunderstood.
S
06:28
Sy
no you were pretty clear about that
Z
06:29
Zack
if someone has 51% of mining power, then they can undo txs.
S
06:29
Sy
In reply to this message
.
Z
06:29
Zack
Amoveopool2 has had more than 51% for much more than 1000 blocks.
06:30
for over 5000 blocks I think
S
06:30
Sy
na we dipped every now and then
06:30
but you still have to control it for a while or the chain will fork
06:30
im still intervening :)
06:30
but then again, there is more money in keeping it running
Z
06:30
Zack
and the 1000 blocks thing is only for the oracle.
you can undo payments by having 51% for only as many confirmations as the receiver waits when getting paid.
I
06:30
Iridescence
O K can just split to amoveopool2 and amoveopool3 if he wanted to show that he was below 50%....
S
06:30
Sy
nobody would switch...
06:31
i did that earlier when we had like 70% of the net xD
Z
06:31
Zack
In reply to this message
if OK controls 2 pools that add up to >50%, he can still undo payments.
S
06:31
Sy
true
Z
06:31
Zack
There is no way for us to know how much money OK has already stolen.
S
06:32
Sy
why is it always so negative with you?
S
06:32
Sy
everybody is attacking, stealing and harming your precious toy...and on the other hand you dont really seem to care with threats of resetting everything and such
I
06:33
Iridescence
Pool centralization is the nature of crypto for PoW
Z
06:33
Zack
Amoveo is still small. better to restart now instead of later.
OK
06:33
O K
It's not small in that sense
06:33
hundreds of thousands have changed hands
S
06:33
Sy
yeah true, only a few 100k invested, better find a new place to live
AS
06:33
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
Zack has the true mind of decentralization. But yes u're right. Zack is a little bit overemphasize the current problem
OK
06:33
O K
I want to continue making money in 1 year
06:34
Sorry, but if I do senseless things, that will not happen
06:34
I will lose trust
S
06:34
Sy
imho zack has a pretty idealistic point of view which isnt wrong but just doesnt work in the real world with ppl, greed and everything that comes along
06:34
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
i agree. and i have found him/ his pool to be honest based on my calculations
06:34
In reply to this message
so game theory didn't work ;)
Z
06:34
Zack
This problem isn't so small.
How am I supposed to launch an exchange when OK can take all the money out of the exchange without leaving any evidence?
OK
06:35
O K
There is evidence
S
06:35
Sy
wouldnt the money be gone?
AS
06:35
Aizen Sou
True, that's why the corrupted world needs people like Zack
S
06:35
Sy
there isnt a way around humanity...you either include everyone and get everything or you make it exclusive and select your peers
AS
06:36
Aizen Sou
But i like Zack's suggestion. OK could increase his fee to 20% like earlier.
S
06:36
Sy
doesnt really fix the problem of a miner that cant change pool
Z
06:36
Zack
the money would be gone sure. but I wouldn't be able to prove OK did it. It could be that I stole the money and blamed OK.
OK
06:36
O K
In reply to this message
The hosts file is an easy fix
AS
06:36
Aizen Sou
Mandel's miner doesn't work anymore ?
OK
06:37
O K
In reply to this message
It does
Z
06:37
Zack
Mandel's miner is slower than the closed source miner.
06:37
it is obsolete
S
06:37
Sy
but wouldnt he have to control the chain for a longer period of time and every outside block would disrupt it?
JM
06:37
J M
Zack more people would use your mining pool if http://159.65.120.84:8085/main.html looked better
Z
06:37
Zack
In reply to this message
the amount of time is determined by how many confirmations you need to wait when loading money onto the exchange.
AS
06:37
Aizen Sou
With 20% fee people would switch to your pool, Zack
OK
06:37
O K
Zack has a strict no-css policy
S
06:37
Sy
😂
Z
06:38
Zack
In reply to this message
the software wont connect to the pool at all.
Nonscense pool looks better, and no one uses that either. because the software only connects to amoveopool2.
I
06:38
Iridescence
In reply to this message
😂😂
AS
06:38
Aizen Sou
Btw i don't know why u would waste ur time on running a mining pool, Zack. Leave that to miners and pool OPs
OK
06:38
O K
I mean if people are so idealistic, it would be fine to use AmoveoMinerGPUCuda
S
06:38
Sy
i think there isnt a way around certain events, if you would really restart now it would happen slightly different anyway - its like growing up, you cant shield your child from everything...
06:39
but i still see no reason for mandel to alter the chain and he will loose his majority soon imho
Z
06:39
Zack
Maybe we should just pause the progress at this point in time, no more blocks until we get a good opem source miner.
S
06:39
Sy
or OK ^^
06:39
and how would you do that?
06:39
Deleted Account
to do a fair launch you need a good open source miner released and available to all. you cannot have double standards - if you think market competiton will take care of everything through game thoery and you believed that when @Iridescence was selling his proprietary miner then you should also lean back and relax now. the problem is market dynamics usually create monopolistic structures. if you ignored that because it didn't affect you because you ( Zack ) were not mining. but now it affects you because 1. you are running a pool with almost no rewards/ fee and 2. it creates possible 51% attack
S
06:39
Sy
the chain would just fork...
Z
06:40
Zack
Someone needs to launch an exchange soon.
As long as one mining pool has >50% of the hashpower, then it is not secure to run an exchange.
I
06:40
Iridescence
You can write a proxy that changes the pool url
06:41
Deleted Account
either leave it to game theory completely after creating a good design or monitor it for each and every case. i would oppose whimsical interventions
OK
06:41
O K
In reply to this message
The hosts file, he doesn't like this idea but hasn't said why
Z
06:42
Zack
In reply to this message
I am not against it.
I don't understand how to do this, I thought you were going to do it?
06:42
In reply to this message
Oh okay, I thought you were being flippant about it. Yes I can help
S
06:42
Sy
you just put amoveopool2.com with zacks ip in your hostfile, done
OK
06:42
O K
In reply to this message
✅
S
06:42
Sy
IF zacks pool does the /work thingy now