23:06
Deleted Account
But it will also shorten retargeting period?
23:07
Zack
Retarget period is always 2000 blocks.
23:08
Deleted Account
Ah got it.
23:55
Deleted Account
monero changed algorithms today for resist ASIC miner from bitmain
23:56
also there is a hard fork now
00:46
Mr Flintstone
hash rate really doing work right now
00:48
so new difficulty should be 2368?
00:50
Sy
it will rise some more i guess
00:54
Mr Flintstone
assuming miners are honest it is just a function of timestamp at 12500 and 13500
00:54
honest w/ respect to timestamping
04:16
linky
wtb please pm
05:18
Brian Brian
Whatโs the current price looking like?
05:23
Mr Flintstone
probs like 200
05:23
maybe a little more
05:25
Iridescence
1 VEO = 1 ETH? ๐ฎ
06:15
Jim
Considering ~16000 ETH is, like, smaller than the very smallest garbage ICOs, Iโd say why not ๐
06:18
(Page 4 or something of ETH tokens)
06:27
Mr Flintstone
when this gets exchange listed I assume itโll be in mveo
08:30
Kale
Hello,bro,how to escrow?
08:34
Zack
I can escrow for you. PM me, and ill send you the details.
09:12
Iridescence
True, true
09:55
Mr Flintstone
can we all agree to hard fork the price to 1 veo = 1 eth?
10:25
Deleted Account
1 veo ๏ผ1 lambo
10:47
Jon Snow
1 Veo = 1000 MVEO
10:48
โMVEO is the real VEOโ - Roger Ver
10:48
โVEO is the real BTCโ - Roger Ver
11:00
Deleted Account
Now you can search by block height, account pubkey etc.
http://veoscan.io/
11:01
Mandel Hoff
Thank you catweed. Your veo scan is very wonderful.
11:02
Deleted Account
I'm enjoying building this :)
11:22
Mr Flintstone
this is awesome
12:57
Eli W
Awesome and thank you ๐๐๐
13:10
Sy
catweed will you at some point display all transactions for an address?
13:10
thats the way to go :D
13:13
Deleted Account
Yes, maybe tomorrow.
13:16
CryptoMach
Wtb pls pm me
14:20
I P
lambo talks is what ruining crypto overall i think๐๐
14:28
Ben
not if your on the recieving end of Lambo
14:57
Deleted Account
lol
14:57
you will have more lambos than the plant has resources to build
15:10
Sy
whats your problem with veo and 100$? nobody is asking for mbtc yet it hit 20k
Vladimir Vorkachev joined group by link from Group
Vladimir Vorkachev invited Andrey Ivashentsev
Vladimir Vorkachev invited Dexter DeShaun Jr.
Vladimir Vorkachev invited Sergei Kovtun
22:55
Deleted Account
Interesting to look around txs...
Top 2, 3, 4 accounts (BPZ48, BNmh, BJ1w) are held by single entity.
It's 3221 VEO.
23:24
Jim
What's impressive is that Zack+Kassel (who that is) is less than 50%. Lots of hash being thrown at this beast by different people
23:30
This seemed like so long ago, yes?
----
idea: 1 blockchain for sy and kassel (assuming they are different)
1 blockchain for the rest of the world
---
Well, rest of world now has the majority share
23:31
Deleted Account
I believe sy is batman and kassel
23:33
linky
wtb please pm
23:38
Deleted Account
I think Sy (BEwc and BPbr) has 56.6% of hashpower right now.
00:13
Deleted Account
you knew too much.
00:14
just wanna to know is he mined by GPU farm or by AWS
00:15
Deleted Account
Using block explorer, now its' easy to track txs.
00:17
Deleted Account
basically this blockchain become a monopoly of Sy(or kassel batman BEwc and BPbr)
00:18
Deleted Account
Not yet. About coin distribution, BTC is much worse.
00:19
Zack
About 4000 blocks per month. So we have about 3.5 months of blocks so far.
Also, I expect the block reward will increase over time.
00:24
Deleted Account
Current hashpower/token distribution of amoveo is not so bad as a starter.
The future depends on how we can grow organically from here, I think.
00:27
Natural adoption and getting popularity by oracle market use is the best.
00:28
I P
It is rather bad but it could've been much worse
00:28
O K
I don't think it's that bad, amoveo is young, the work was done
00:28
Deleted Account
Yes, not optimal, but could have been worse.
00:36
Deleted Account
i dont think you will get a lot of support from here on increase of block reward
00:44
I P
Well why not increase it?
00:44
Mr Flintstone
itโs not about should or should not
00:45
itโs about what will the aggregate impact of how individuals feel about this topic
00:45
high chance people are too greedy in aggregate to increase block reward
00:46
we will see tho this is just my view
00:58
Sy
its called protecting your interests and not greed, why would anyone vote on higher block rewards? it would mean that everything you did so far was a farce and a waste of time and energy
00:59
if you want to increase block reward by 10 you have to increase all balances by 10 aswell like a stock split, i mean there is a reason every other coin decreases over time...
01:00
Deleted Account
increase block reward is stupid
01:00
Sy
but on the long run the same ppl will stay on top since they still own more hashpower and still mine more than you do no matter the block reward, imho its pointless to change a system like that, it just devalues the coin alot - if you have a probably increased block reward in the future, why would anyone be interested in this now? or invest at any point? it might happen again
01:01
the interesting part of every investment is that it increases in value, not the chance of it loosing value by a factor
01:01
i dont even want to think about everyone who bought right now, it would screw them over HARD
01:02
but in the end, it will be voted upon and im pretty sure i know the outcome
01:06
I P
Not really, it is rather fair to new people coming
01:09
O K
I don't think it is
01:10
Mr Flintstone
then precedent for future increase is set, devaluing their expectation
01:10
so it does hurt them
01:17
Jon Snow
Really not sure what your definition of fairness is. You are a newcomer today but you will be early adopter tmr.
01:17
Minieep21
Need to make a market on this and bet on block reward remaining the same/decreasing or increasing
01:18
Mr Flintstone
or you could just open the actual oracle :)
01:22
Sy
Like I said, changing the block reward won't change anyone's hashpower, you still get the same piece of the pie
01:22
It's just an illusion tbh
01:22
O K
All it does is create uncertainty
01:22
Jon Snow
Now you see my point on MVEO Sy?
01:27
Zack
People's relative hash power is changing over time as the network grows.
The cpu powerful aren't so important once gpu started mining.
the nvidia are less important once amd starts.
01:28
Would you rather own 50% of a blockchain worth $2 million, or 0.1% of a blockchain worth $10 billion?
Network effect is important. If we do not grow faster than the competition, we will lose.
01:29
Lots of companies are willing to operate at a loss for a time, in order to grow fast.
Once you are the biggest in the market, then you can take profit.
01:30
If someone like sy wants to own 50% of the tokens forever, he can. But he will end up on a worthless fork, while the rest of us will continue to grow.
01:32
Sy could use the governance mechanism to make a fork where the block reward is 0.001 Veo.
And he can be king of his own fork.
01:33
Jehan Tremback
1 VEO === 1 LAMBO
01:33
O K
You can't engineer the market cap
01:34
If you want more market cap, make more value
01:35
Zack
Amoveo value is created when electricity value is destroyed.
01:35
Electricity value is converted into cryptocurrency value.
01:36
It is a way to preserve the value for longer periods. Electricity is too expensive to store
01:36
O K
Correlation does not necessarily mean causation
01:36
Jon Snow
Why would you think increase block reward will increase the network effect?
01:37
Zack
If we double the block reward, and the market is efficient, then this would also double the amount of electricity burned per second.
01:38
O K
The price is strictly created by the market, by supply and demand. Energy expended correlates with that for various reasons, but it's not "why" it has value
01:38
Zack
If we try to grow too fast, then doubling the block reward will make the amount of electricity burned per second increase by less than 2x.
It is bad to try to grow too fast.
It is also bad to prevent growth.
01:40
Deleted Account
Bit off topic but has anyone had any experience mining Amoveo with a cloud computing instance?
01:40
Jon Snow
So you are assuming increasing the block reward but the veo price will hold constant?
01:41
Zack
I am not assuming anything.
That only works if the market can handle the growth.
I'd we try to grow too fast, it won't work.
01:43
Jon Snow
If the community bet/vote against your will, will you fork the chain?
01:44
Understand that you are the biggest VEO holder because of developer reward, but letโs just assume this scenario happens
01:44
Zack
I will do whatever looks the most profitable for me.
01:46
O K
Would you still be in favor of increasing the block reward if the developer reward were fixed and not relative?
01:46
Jon Snow
The developer block reward is a % of the block reward, so I guess you are protected against any inflation
01:46
O K
My thoughts too
01:48
Zack
the developer reward is a governance variable too. it is possible to move it independently of the block reward
01:48
I think if it wasn't a percentage of the block reward, I would be pushing to increase both the developer reward and the block reward together
01:50
Jon Snow
No offense. But you might fork the chain if it is against your benefit as you implied, so whatโs the point of governance variables
01:50
Zack
When designing Amoveo I studied the history of money.
I read that part of the reason gold is popular as a currency is because it is possible to mine more gold at a certain price.
It is possible to get more gold without having to buy it from someone who already has some.
01:51
If it is beneficial to be able to create more gold at some price, then there must be an ideal cost of creating new money.
01:52
O K
I think some of us here have studied the history of money as well
01:52
It is not an uncontroversial subject
01:52
Zack
I am no king. The community can fire me and not use my fork.
01:52
O K
We would prefer you be the developer, I don't think anyone wants to fire you
01:53
Zack
I can merely voice my opinion. I can't force the community to raise the block reward.
01:53
Mr Flintstone
it is perfectly normal to have a discussion on this
01:53
O K
I think we all have similar ends, some of us may be confused about the best means
01:53
Mr Flintstone
we do not want to fire you as a developer I do not think
01:54
Zack
We all have a strong incentive to cooperate
01:54
I acknowledge that it is possible that I am wrong. Money is complicated, and very politically charged.
01:57
Jon Snow
To be clear, I think you are doing a great job of developing Amoveo. ๐
02:05
Jim
Inflation rate is right now about 0.9% a day, or about 2600% a yr. Changing block reward is a vote on whether or not that inflation rate is too high or too low.
02:11
Other major players right now: BTC 0.01%, ETH 0.02%, ZEC 0.2%
02:12
Zack
And how quickly was bitcoin inflating on day 35?
02:12
Jim
Should be about the same, as any constant block reward coin has same inflation rate
02:13
No matter if block interval is a second or an hour. Idealized though
02:14
Jehan Tremback
whats the best place these days to chek the balance?
02:15
Jon Snow
A good way to look at this.
02:16
Jim
Not taking a position since I donโt know the answers. Just interested in the data.
02:24
Zack
The light node is most secure
02:25
Jehan Tremback
what's that site that the guy did?
02:27
Zack
On day 35 the market cap was lower. So 1 bitcoin was a larger portion of the total number of tokens.
Or maybe you are basing it off of a 21 million cap?
02:38
I think the inflation rate isn't a useful metric to focus on.
Instead we should consider the value of tokens produced per day, and the daily demand for new tokens.
02:42
Sy
You guys keep confusing pool hashrate Vs what I personally got
02:42
Many of the topics here are philosophical, so there is no real right or wrong, just opinions
02:43
But coin price wet always only loosely based on diff or electricity, it's always the value ppl see in it or btc wouldn't have dipped below production price with 3 ct per kWh nor surged to 19k a coin
02:44
Same here, veo was at 80 when diff quadrupled, the price didn't care
02:44
It will go up another 20-30% this adjustment
02:44
You can see in your own coin and example that many assumptions are incorrect
02:47
I P
well right now veo is way too overpriced compared to electricity cost spent
02:47
but bitcoin is too=)
02:59
Sy
That's what I'm saying, in this case it's supply and demand, only a few are selling and it is interesting, electricity cost is a side factor
03:00
I P
not many people are buying too=) if you were to sell several hundreds of veo... there is no demand
03:01
increasing block reward is fine when and if new people join to mine trade etc
03:02
i personally think that block reward should ramp up slowly from the start untill some reasonable value and slowly drop down so that there is not a huge inflation
03:02
Sy
Except only one or two got several hundred and I know at least one who would buy from me that amount without changing the price at all
03:03
I P
this way you get a fair start and get a lot of people involved
03:03
Sy
I'm curious, how are these governance variables changed? Vote by block? You pay for your vote like the oracle? Is the money lost?
03:48
Zack
Amoveo has no voting.
The governance system and oracle use the same software, they are nearly identical.
04:00
Jim
This is the ZEC model - didnโt work too well for exchange prices though
04:01
I P
Zec is a successful project you know
04:02
Jim
It is (Iโm invested). But hyperinflation continues to be a problem
04:06
Successful inflationary economics can be designed. But you need sinks - something for people to spend on. Burns, fees, "taxation", products and services
04:07
O K
Strongly prefer to avoid conflating words like "taxation" even if they are convenient
04:07
Jim
Is goal to maximize per token value, or market value, or economic usefulness? Not necessarily the same. Community decides.
04:09
I guess it should be called demurrage, but don't want to get technical
04:09
Zack
While we are small we need to focus on getting the market cap bigger.
Once we have market dominance for blockchain enforced betting, then we can shift our focus to maximizing token value.
04:12
Deleted Account
How to check number of coins circulating?
04:12
Zack
it is written on every block
04:13
Deleted Account
ahh, sorry thanks
04:13
O K
The best way to grow market cap is to grow fundamentals
04:14
We need to keep improving, we can all proofread docs, help to add clarity, continue working on front end
04:14
Use and test channels and markets
04:15
If something is confusing in the docs don't be afraid to speak up about how it is unclear
04:15
We need more translations, and improvements on translations
04:16
Maybe some outreach into other language communities?
04:54
Jon Snow
Agreed. Also, a strong fundamental is the only way for exchanges to list this coin. With only OTC deals, it is not easy to grow to hundreds millions or billions level.
05:27
Sy
Just wait and see, it won't happen as you anticipate anyway
05:28
I P
well the project is still in early stages.. talking about billions of market cap is... well.. really premature
05:36
Sy
Talking about changing block reward too xD
05:39
I P
well changing block reward is kind of easier compared to getting billion $ marketcap given that right now crypto is going to get rekt on that part
05:40
i would not be surpised to see all crypto cap at 100bln in 1-2 month
06:55
Mandel Hoff
Yes, Zack is #5 on the list too at 990 veo, so Zack+Kassel+batman is about 45%.
07:49
Zack
Is it bad?
Cryptocurrency is like your immune system. Every time you get sick, you gain immunity to a new disease.
The crypto community needs to be harassed to get stronger. This will drive us to develop and use decentralized exchanges.
07:50
I P
sure, but first it will crash crypto market=)
07:52
if bitfinex really was helping to launder large amounts of drug money (and will be prosecuted for that) - will be big blow to crypto market overall
08:05
CryptoMach
Got the below error during mining...anyone know what it means?
SGet work exception. Sleep...
Exception in Solution Submission.
Get work exception. Sleep...
Get work exception. Sleep...
Exception in Solution Submission.
08:08
O K
Pool is up, my cards are cranking right now, it's possible that whatever he mines to for his developer reward is down, or perhaps you're having internet connection issues on that machine?
Deleted joined group by link from Group
08:08
O K
Have you tried restarting the miner?
08:09
CryptoMach
right...
10:14
Pan
To ALL:
If we need more block rewards, I strongly suggest:
firstly, we keep 'block rewards/mining difficulty' being constant, then see what will happen.
I think price will keep more stable.
10:17
Zack
I think we should probably keep the reward constant at least until we have an exchange to accurately know the price.
If we don't know the price, we could easily damage amoveo by messing with the block reward.
10:55
Deleted Account
๐
Deleted joined group by link from Group
11:36
Pan
I think it's fair for both early and new miners to fix the cost for producting one VEO. We dont need true price to achieve that.
If we manually set the block rewards, it's easy to lead to over issue, which badly hurt early investor/community members.
11:42
I dont keep much Veo, but I think many firm members care the quick dump very much.
11:49
Deleted Account
anyone knows why i can not change default pool by the new tool veominer?
11:50
i change pool address to your pool.but it seems not effect
13:45
Deleted Account
for all discussing the history of money - the book Vitalik recently recommended on twitter is a suggested read (in case you havent). i am reading it currently and it makes a lot of sense
13:47
also value of an asset also depends on the market's expectations of its future value
13:48
and thereby can get very disconnected to how much it costs to make it - especially if supply is inelastic
13:50
it'll be shortsigted to connected veo's value to electricity consumption value, especially given its not widely known yet and therefore the market suffers from information bias
13:50
similarly it'll be shortsigted to draw parallels to bitcoin's 35th day.
13:52
Sy
Amoveopool is gaining speed, guess ppl like that AMD miner
13:54
Deleted Account
the more blockchains develop, the more satoshi's economic models make sense. he almost balanced everything perfectly before relinquishing control.
14:24
Deleted Account
It is true that power consumption won't have impacts on price
14:26
Only gold mined values๏ผ the stone mined doesn't, no matter how hard it is to mine that stone.
15:23
Ben
so now Diff should be higher right?
15:25
did not reflect that yet
15:37
Marc
why? what? BikBikBikBikBik deleted nVeoPool from git.
15:38
oh man. what a sad sunday. ๐ค
15:50
Deleted Account
what's the difficulty now
15:51
Deleted Account
13068
16:51
Sy
Not even 20% increase, that's good
17:23
Zack
In any moment, there is some ideal rate of Veo production. Too low is worse, and too high is worse.
If we produce Veo too slow, we are over-rewarding old hodlers at the expense of new investors, which causes growth to stall.
If we produce Veo too quickly, then this depreciates the value of old Veo, which over-rewards new investors at the expense of old.
The ideal rate is determined by the demand for new Veo in that moment.
The idea that we are supposed to be able to predict the Veo demand years or decades ahead of time is ridiculous. We cannot predict the future.
17:29
Sy
There is no way you can predict nor control it
17:29
NM$L
what's veo next action?
17:29
Sy
Just let it happen and program the best you can do, it will work out in the end
17:30
Zack
Yes, we cannot control demand. But we can respond to demand.
17:31
Like how apple would increase or decrease iPhone production based on how many people want to buy I phones
17:31
Sy
How fast? And how do you really know the demand? You don't even know what ofc trades are happening right now
17:32
Zack
Correct, that is why I suggest we wait until there is a exchange so we can see the price
17:33
Sy
Agreed although looking at crypto in general market price seems to be a matter of hype, fanboi'ism, pr and pumping, rarely value
17:34
Trying to control that might turn out catastrophic, I mean you basically try to be another central bank, controlling the value of your currency
17:36
Zack
I have never suggested trying to control the price.
On the contrary, I suggest we should adapt to the market conditions instead of rigidly trying to predict them years ahead of time.
17:38
Speaking of a "value" besides the market price... this seems imaginary.
A value that cannot be measured is not real.
17:46
Ben
if you code like you did until here all this Discussion anout Value and Price will vanish.
17:48
Zack
A healthy debate about the governance values is important for the success of amoveo.
17:49
We need to coordinate ourselves.
Amoveo only incentivizes us to coordinate, it does not force us to agree.
18:33
Deleted Account
Anyone know total supply? I can nit find.
18:41
Zack
currently there are 18300 veo.
18:45
Sy
amoveopool2 taking the lead again, 48% of the blocks
18:53
Kale
Everybody,i found nobody wts veo?
18:55
Ben
Kale i will sell you as much Veo as you want for 225$ each
19:17
Marc
i am hodling. i think 225$ is way to cheap for this coin.
19:17
NM$L
yeah at least 1veo๏ผ1eth
19:18
Marc
time will tell.
19:26
Deleted Account
is it so expensive?
19:29
Mr Flintstone
yeah I am hodling until this coin becomes more reasonably valued. even 250*18000 (~4mm) is way way too low of a cap for a coin like this
19:36
Deleted Account
maybe 1000 thousand dollars will be a reasonable price recently
19:37
I P
guys get real=)) crypto is getting rekt and you are talking about 1000$ per veo? come on
19:37
O K
Look at other coins in that market cap range, we are very real
19:37
Deleted Account
i sold below 150๐
19:38
Al
And Total Coin Supply?
19:39
Deleted Account
look at these scam coin such as TRON
19:40
O K
It puts us below jesuscoin
19:40
Marc
crypto is not getting rekt. we had these down phases before and have always recovered. bear up!
19:41
shaking off the weak hands. i am okay with that.
19:42
Deleted Account
And max supply?
19:42
Deleted Account
I won't sell in two years.
19:43
mining is so damn hard.
19:44
O K
It requires almost no human interaction... How is that hard? ๐
19:44
The heat can be bad, but it's like a free sauna
20:06
Deleted Account
if I am living in a big house. That is fine. But I am not๏ผonly a small apartment in big city. The heat๏ผthe electricity consumption and the light bothers me.
20:06
And it is summer now.
20:06
Zack
I think it is either fall or spring in all parts of the planet
20:07
Deleted Account
๐
20:08
rather hot in Guangzhou. But it is a bit colder these days
20:08
Marc
same here. 1200 watts thermal discharge are getting difficult to handle.
20:14
Deleted Account
BTW๏ผI found there is FPGA renting on Alicloud. Any help on mining VEO?
20:17
Zack
Thanks for telling us.
Has anyone checked to see if it is profitable for mining?
20:29
Ben
first you need the skills do get that working on the FPGA
20:29
if you do that you can dominate
20:29
Zack
oh right. FPGA is different from GPU.
20:50
Sy
FPGA on such algo without ASIC is always profitable, it's more a question. Of your skills
20:51
You have to program the miner that gets and submits work Vs pool, controller work Vs miner and FPGA, FPgA itself to hash and return results
20:51
At least 2 languages involved, probably 3
20:54
There is always a controller on the FPGA that has to handle the FPGA communication and talks with your miner
20:54
Always 3 part story
20:56
O K
One semi-modern Fpga, early stages of development and efficiency, would be equal to (roughly) how many gpus ? Broadly speaking...
21:02
Zack
It looks to me like FPGA are more profitable per kilowatt of electricity.
But the hardware is excessively more expensive.
I think that mining costs are currently dominated by hardware costs, so at this point it probably doesn't make sense to use FPGA.
Once we get to the point where 90% of the cost of mining is from electricity, then we should switch.
21:02
But I haven't been mining, you guys probably know better than me
21:03
Zack
I think a semi-modern FPGA will get about the same hashrate as a high quality GPU.
21:03
Zack
but it will use 1/3rd as much electricity.
21:03
O K
Cooler then too
21:06
Sy
But much more expensive
21:07
FPGAs is basically about power consumption and ease of use once they are running, 5-10w per chip you can run quite a lot before you really generated heat
21:07
O K
So not a gpu killer, but nice for people who know what they're doing
21:07
Sy
I bought a devboard once but can't wrap my head around all the steps xD
21:08
Never a gpu killer, awesome if you have them around but initial investment is risky, you can't use them on any memory intensive algo which most are nowadays
21:08
So you are very limited like SHA algos
21:10
They are always slower and usually 2-3 times more expensive Vs hashrate, power consumption is super low tho
21:11
With this coin a super uneducated guess would be 500-700 mh at 6-10w for 400โฌ IF you can get it running
21:11
With getting it running being the most tricky part
21:23
O K
Thanks for the insight Sy
22:40
Deleted Account
I happened to know someone in Intel FPGA department.
22:41
I will ask him about it
22:51
I P
wow 500-700mh per 6-10w is HUGE compared to gpu. RX580 can get 1400mhs but it runs 120w or so
22:52
but they produce more powerful fpgas each year, i will not be surprised if the current gen can pull even more than you expect. consumer gpus are stagnant for last 2 years, nvidia 10 and amd rx4/5
22:54
Eli W
For Nvidia , June will release new models , any insight on will that improved a lot ?
22:55
I P
i think we need to wait. I expect them with new gen to part ways for consumer gaming gpus and mining gpus
22:56
Eli W
Appreciated ๐
22:57
I P
at least they had a lot of backlash from the gaming community and even started to make p106-100,p104-100 and p102-100 for the current gen (10) which are better in mining compared to gaming cards
23:03
Sy
Yep it is, power savings are enormous but price is high, you have to be able to run them long enough to roi
23:05
Zack
I think that if mining is too profitable, then gpu are better because you can reinvest in buying more gpu more frequently.
So fpga are only good when the profit margins are small.
23:12
Deleted Account
how to join in this group? any link?
23:12
Deleted Account
What is the difference between amoveo algorithms and bitcoin?
23:13
Zack
The bitcoin header is shapped differently.
Bitcoin is double Sha256.
Amoveo is single-sha256.
00:18
Denis
Since sha256 isn't memory-hard algo, I wonder is it possible to make VEO+ETH dual miner?
00:40
I P
it is possible for sure
00:41
but you would need claymore to do it
00:56
Sy
why? thats just a program, someone has to program it to make it happen but eth does use some gpu power so it would slow down veo a bit
00:57
I P
well right now claymore is the only who implemented efficient dual mining for many algos and it is not open source=(
01:09
Denis
There is huge incentives of making such miner for big miners like Sy owning thousands of GPUs. So maybe it already exist.
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02:26
Sy
i am running 39 gpus ๐
02:30
O K
Here you go bud you dropped some zeros โ> 000 ๐
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02:53
Denis
You getting 40% of blocks with 39 GPUs? Anyway average farm in China has more than 1000 GPUs, and at that scale it may be cheaper to develop dual miner than lose ethereum hashes.
03:06
Zack
Duel miners could be a problem in the future. It is true.
03:10
O K
Zack,
amoveo.io is your domain correct?
03:11
Zack
I think Gonzalo has it?
03:11
O K
Oh perhaps.
Gonzalo clicking the link from
amoveo.online to
amoveo.io gives a "blocked by content security policy" error, which is weird
03:19
Sy
I am merely running a pool
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05:09
Gonzalo
Oh I will check It, thanks
08:45
Mr Flintstone
guesses on next diff?
08:58
Zack
I think it will go up by more than 50%.
11:12
Deleted Account
ok so my miners never worked dunno why
11:14
any changes to the mining?
11:18
what is current accurate hashrate?
11:18
and fastest miner hashrate?
11:20
144 amoveos mined per day? block time every 10 min?
11:22
can anyone help me set up proper automatic mining? can pay for help
12:32
Iridescence
@potat_o How do I link to the page for a specific miner address in Amoveopool2?
12:35
nvm, I found out how to do it
14:01
Iridescence
How many blocks does it take for shares to get credited on Amoveopool2?
14:56
Deleted Account
what is the best reliable pool with correct hashrate?
14:58
Deleted Account
how much is hashrate off by?
14:58
Sy
im thinking about running a public one but there is still the tax issue
14:58
Deleted Account
it looks really off
14:58
Sy
i think around 3 th
14:58
Deleted Account
the real hashrate is 3 th? what about the estimate for your own miners
14:58
are you using a cusotm miner sy?
14:58
Sy
they are estimates
14:59
on your miner side the hashrate should be pretty accurate but on the poolside the pool can only guess vs your submited shares and timings
14:59
although you do loose some hashrate vom miner to pool with invalid shares
14:59
Deleted Account
hm my miner side estimates are off too
15:02
Deleted Account
getting a lot of invalid shares
15:02
Sy
yeah the pool nonce probably changed and you havent pulled it yet
15:02
shouldnt happen shortly after getwork tho
15:03
Deleted Account
what you mean
15:03
it keeps happening it look like
15:03
if somebody can help solve i can give donation
15:03
always have mining problem, such frustrate
15:05
Sy
and it will keep happening
15:05
thats just how getwork mining works
15:05
you ask the server for the current job data, start hashing and every x seconds you ask again, if the work changes inbetween you get invalids
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16:04
Deleted Account
anyone here using veominer on 1050? trying to arrive at the right configuration
16:28
Deleted Account
yeah but it keeps failing
19:31
BG5EHI
wts 20veo@160$
21:18
Mandel Hoff
I run veominer on a 1050 with blocksize=64, numblocks=100 and it does 536mh/s
21:46
Denis Stepannikov
hello, on a 6xRX570 card rig, you need to run a separate miner on each card?
21:50
Mandel Hoff
I think the veominer tool handles matching gpu models well for a single process. I know several people run their matching NVidia gpus on a single veominer process. I don't have any AMDs to be completely certain of that though.
21:51
If near 1.4 GH on all cards, I think let it be
21:51
Maybe a little less 1.2
22:03
Deleted Account
my veominer can only find two cards. Then my 1050ti is not working now
22:04
O K
Best to use multiple cmd for multiple unmatching gpu
22:05
Deleted Account
I used multiple cmd
22:05
but it still cannot find 1050ti. while mandels miner can
22:06
O K
Did you set the PlatformID ?
22:06
Denis Stepannikov
if i start mining process with 1 card
New work. Share Difficulty: 8726
[GPU 1] Ellesmere: 1.26 Gh/s
if i start mining process with all (6) card:
Share Submitted - SUCCESS!
New work. Share Difficulty: 8726
[GPU 0] Ellesmere: 200 Mh/s
[GPU 1] Ellesmere: 200 Mh/s
[GPU 2] Ellesmere: 200 Mh/s
[GPU 3] Ellesmere: 200 Mh/s
[GPU 4] Ellesmere: 200 Mh/s
[GPU 5] Ellesmere: 200 Mh/s
Total = 1,2 Gh/s
22:07
O K
Best to use multiple cmd then Denis
22:07
What params do you use ?
22:13
Denis Stepannikov
if i use multiple cmd, error is often displayed:
New work. Share Difficulty: 8705
Share Submitted - ERROR: Duplicate nonce submitted this work item.
22:13
veominer.exe BDITri46Qm1g9PYJWKeew77mqsPFqyT4GHlEGhpWZd/Lr9AnMRcxev/R5j/yJBChnbhIsmFLfbB1DpgRZ4vMpKg= 1 64 1024 SPx6 65536 1
22:13
Deleted Account
alright i am getting 600+ mhs on 1050 with 64/168
22:14
O K
A long random string will reduce this to minimum, but it will still happen sometimes inevitably ... You're better off with the much larger hashrate and anfrw nonce collisions
22:25
Denis Stepannikov
Thank you!
00:57
Jehan Tremback
"The Amoveo, an ancient race of shapeshifters similar to the Dragon Clan in many ways, found their mates in the dreamrealm. Once they connected there, they could find each other in the physical plane."
03:40
O K
Hey Zack, I don't know what's going on with the network, but it's breaking right now
03:42
it is taking unusually long for this block to sync
03:42
Sy
cant see anything in my node
03:43
Zack
now im on 14339
03:44
maybe just a problem with veoscan?
03:44
Well I had been going to independent nodes
03:45
Mandel Hoff
Yes, it looks liked it jumped 14336 to 14339. Sy's node was on 14336 for several minutes and then instantly to 14339.
03:45
O K
well, nice to know it recovered
03:45
Sy
3 blocks to amoveopool2 - looking good
03:45
O K
Did anyone sync headers manually or anything?
03:46
Mandel Hoff
Certainly could a fluke, but it was many minutes that 14337 didn't propagate. Yes, great news everyone recovered smooth.
03:47
Zack
events like this aren't good, they increase the number of orphans and cause some miners to waste time
03:47
But as long as they are rare and short, it isn't so important
03:47
O K
Glad things recovered on their own at least
03:48
fun fact, i lost connection to almost everything on the internet almost exactly at the same time the nodes lost sync
03:48
only ip connections stayed alive
03:48
same is just happening to a friend, i wonder if some major landline got damaged or something
03:48
Zack
maybe it is a problem bigger than the Amoveo network
03:49
Sy
thats my guess which is really hard to happen to the internet tho
03:50
Zack
if you can't contact a node for a few seconds, then it can get blacklisted.
Maybe the network temporarily split because a bunch of nodes blacklisted each other
04:00
Mr Flintstone
crazy
04:01
O K
Blacklists are temporary?
04:01
Zack
yeah, I think it is for 90 seconds
04:02
each node has it's own blacklist. just like each node has it's own peers list.
04:02
blacklists don't propagate the way peers lists do.
04:03
Zack
the blacklist basically just stops you from adding the node to your peers list for 5 minutes.
04:03
otherwise deleting a peer from your peers list would be pointless, it would immediately get shared to you from someone else's peers list.
04:28
Sy
lol it really was a world wide attack on infrastructure, crazy
04:34
O K
I wonder what happened
04:41
Zack
Cool. It's a good sign how we recovered
05:46
Zack
This is unrelated to amoveo.
They are talking about centralized derivatives platforms to bet on the price of bitcoin or Ethereum or other cryptocurrencies.
Amoveo is a decentralized derivative platform that let's us bet on anything.
05:46
Gonzalo
Great, thanks ๐
05:47
Mr Flintstone
Highest Iโve ever seen rolling 20 block hash rate
05:52
Zack
Yes, it looks like the difficulty might increase by more than 3x this time.
06:06
Deleted Account
fuck
06:06
where that link to difficulty map ?
06:07
on amoveo github page please correct the grammar sentence "This means fees are low, making an Amoveo contract is nearly instant, and we can support a global audience."
Zack
06:08
Deleted Account
also this "Amoveo can learn facts about our world and enforce contracts who's outcome is determined by those facts." the 'who's' is incorrect.
06:08
Zack
English is hard. I don't see the grammar error.
06:09
O K
It might be easier if you submit a pull request with suggested grammar TL
06:09
Deleted Account
"This means fees are low, making an Amoveo contract is nearly instant, and we can support a global audience" - there the "is" is redundant
06:09
Zack
Replace "who's" with "where the"?
06:09
Pull requests are ideal.
06:09
Deleted Account
@potat_o - here is where i fall flat on my face. i dont know how to do that ๐ข
06:09
O K
The good news is, grammar and spelling is a really easy way to learn
06:10
Do you have a github account? that's step 1
06:10
Deleted Account
yes and github is so much ddifcult for me
06:10
Zack
Issues on github are a easier alternative to pull requests
06:10
Deleted Account
i think i made one long back
06:10
so once i log in then what
06:10
O K
Okay, so you're on the page you see issues with right?
06:10
Deleted Account
ok i am logged in
06:10
Zack
Just make an issue and give a link to the page with bad grammar
06:10
Deleted Account
yes
08:53
Deleted Account
wait what was the attack?
10:00
Iridescence
@potat_o did amoveopool2 change its share difficulty algorithm? I'm seeing much lower share difficulties being given to my miner
10:05
O K
What share difficulty are you seeing now vs before?
10:06
Iridescence
Before I was seeing difficulties of around
10000-10500
10:06
Now it's around 8500
10:08
O K
I would expect it to ramp up a bit from there, but we did make some changes today that would make the diff more stable
10:09
Iridescence
Hmm I see
10:09
Might be because of those changes then
10:09
Share difficulty doesn't seem to be ramping up like it used to
10:10
O K
Mine start around 8500 and settle in around 9, 9.2
10:10
Iridescence
Either it's your changes or somebody else is spamming getwork on Amoveopool using my address
10:10
O K
I would bet on the changes
10:11
O K
There have been global network issues today, latency has not been good
10:11
Iridescence
Ok, thanks for the info, just wanted to check what changed
10:50
Al
Guys is it possible to put diff on bat file? Does pool support it?
14:43
Deleted Account
Not sure what you mean, the diff to the miner comes with the work and changes based on how often you submit shares so itโs not static
14:48
Al
You can set d something on another mining solutions.
14:51
Deleted Account
has there been a fork recently?
14:52
Deleted Account
Ok, I don't know about those solutions
15:01
Ben
not that i'm aware od
15:52
Sy
its not really a problem but how mining works, the miner should be prorammed to do a getwork tho after that message and not just repeat it until the round is over
16:23
Denis
Not sure if it caused by recent pool changes, but today i'm getting way more 'Not valid share. difficulty too low' errors. And hashrate reported at pool dropped ~ 5 times.
17:04
Sy
ah btw, there was a power outage in a major backbone in germany which apparently disrupted quite alot
19:26
O K
We adjusted the hashrate estimate. It should more closely reflect what's shown in your console now (the console should be your go-to for determining your hashrate)
19:37
Denis
Have you also changed 'Total Gigahashes' counter?
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19:57
Denis
Well, later i got ~14Gh/s at console, ~12Gh/s at pool, and ~12Gh/s calculated from 'total gigahashes'. Now i'm still getting 14Gh/s at console, but only 4Gh/s estimated at pool, and ~5Gh/s calculated using total Gh counter. And now i'm getting alot 'difficulty to low' errors. Something must be wrong with miner or pool, or interaction between them.
19:59
O K
Can you PM me the first few of your address so I can have a look?
21:43
Deleted Account
Today I have 1 more Gpu. but now only 1 gpu mining. How can I mibe with all gpus?
21:43
O K
Which miner do you use?
21:44
Deleted Account
amoveominergpucuda
21:44
veomuner can not work
21:45
With this, you need to open 1 cmd prompt/shell per card
21:46
Deleted Account
shell? only type shell?
21:46
O K
Are you on Linux or Windows?
21:46
Deleted Account
Windows
21:47
O K
Okay so open one cmd, AmoveoMinerGpuCuda.exe BPA3r0XDT1V8W4sB14YKyuu/PgC6ujjYooVVzq1q1s5b6CAKeu9oLfmxlplcPd+34kfZ1qx+Dwe3EeoPu0SpzcI= 0
21:48
That's one card, then for the next card
21:48
AmoveoMinerGpuCuda.exe BPA3r0XDT1V8W4sB14YKyuu/PgC6ujjYooVVzq1q1s5b6CAKeu9oLfmxlplcPd+34kfZ1qx+Dwe3EeoPu0SpzcI= 1
21:48
If you PM me I will try to help you get VeoMiner working, it would be worth it
21:49
Deleted Account
I got it. Make 2 .bat files right?
21:50
O K
No, not necessary. If you use .bat file it looks like this:
21:52
start cmd /c AmoveoMinerGpuCuda.exe BPA3r0XDT1V8W4sB14YKyuu/PgC6ujjYooVVzq1q1s5b6CAKeu9oLfmxlplcPd+34kfZ1qx+Dwe3EeoPu0SpzcI= 0 128 128 string123
timeout /t 1
start cmd /c AmoveoMinerGpuCuda.exe BPA3r0XDT1V8W4sB14YKyuu/PgC6ujjYooVVzq1q1s5b6CAKeu9oLfmxlplcPd+34kfZ1qx+Dwe3EeoPu0SpzcI= 1 128 128 123string
22:59
Tato
because veominer only loads me 2 GPUs, if I write all it takes me all but with low H / s
22:59
O K
Yes, use 1 cmd for 1 GPU
23:02
Tato
Some parameter settings <BlockSize> <NumBlocks> <SuffixMax> for 1070TI GPUs
23:03
with 1 cmd for 1 GPU CPU 100% and low the general H / s.
23:04
O K
For phamhuong's veominer?
23:05
O K
Can you send screenshot right after starting miner?
23:10
O K
When you run them all together in one cmd, what do you set as platform ID?
23:10
Are the cards all 1070ti identical?
23:11
O K
Platform ID default to 0
23:12
Send screenshot of all in one window? (include the paramter detail that shows when you first start?)
23:14
Mandel Hoff
Try OK's suggestion first, but another thing to try might be this:
Maybe try to group some of the GPUs together? Maybe 1, 4, and 5 together. Then 0,2 together. Maybe 3 by itself if it's the slowest one?
23:14
O K
Good suggestion ๐
23:14
I think 512 is too high
23:15
Tato
The same thing happens with 128
23:16
What does the default values give you (only set 'all'
23:16
Brb try what Mandel suggested so you can find the slow GPU
23:17
Mandel Hoff
Yes, 128/512 might be high too. I'm not sure what would be good for a 1070. You should be able to get far above 1.4gh/s with a single GPU on 1070.
23:20
Tato
the same thing happens with 128/128
23:20
Mandel Hoff
Here's a 1070ti speed report. I saw "Dont Shoot" say he uses this settings on his 1070s too 128/168
23:21
Tato
con una sola GPU en 1070TI:
23:23
Mandel Hoff
1.86gh/s is very good.
23:24
when I speak 1 cmd per GPU it goes down almost in half
23:26
Mandel Hoff
Wow 2.2 is certainly better than 1.86 too. ๐ Can you give it 2 GPU per cmd? How's the speed for 2 GPU per cmd?
23:28
Tato
Mandel Hoff I only get 2 GPU maximum in a single cmd. The speed for 2 is 1,10
23:28
Mandel Hoff
The very large numblocks may yield higher hash rates, but might be wasting some efficiency since the block hash changes about every 30 (or 40?) seconds.
23:29
Is it 1,10 for many different numblocks values? 128/168, 128/256, etc...?
23:34
Tato
128/256 928Mh/s
23:39
Mandel Hoff
Thank you for trying those various settings. Does changing which GPU pairs matter? 0,1 versus 1,4 versus 4,5? I'm not sure what else to suggest trying. I'm out of ideas.
23:45
Tato
128/168 GPU 0,1 924Mh/s GPU 1,4 929 GPU 4,5 902 GPU 3,5 923
23:46
O K
Tato, is this machine only for mining?
23:47
Do you have a USB devices 16gb or bigger?
23:48
O K
At this point what I would do personally, is try installing Ubuntu on a USB drive
23:48
Tato
i have USb but no connect to the machine
23:48
O K
Or try Ubuntu on the machine
23:48
Mandel Hoff
Sorry that I wasn't any help. I'm out of ideas. I don't know why it would drop by half.
23:49
Zack
I think you only need 1 gb usb to install Ubuntu
23:49
Tato
thank you very much I will try
23:49
O K
I set up VeoMiner on a fresh ubuntu rig last night, and it was very quick and easy by Pham's directions
23:49
Ubuntu 17 and 16 will work, but notice that Pham's directions default to 16
23:49
O K
I like Xubuntu, it is a little lighter on resources
00:18
Kale
i thinkhttp://amoveopool2.com/miner have problem
00:22
O K
We adjusted some things to better reflect the console hashrate today and be more accurate. What problem are you having?
02:16
Phil Bonello
what is a veo going for these days?
02:19
I P
depends on a quantity, i guess you can find 1-10 veo cheap. if you want to buy 100-1000 veo you will need to settle price with very few people and i guess they will charge extra
02:21
Phil Bonello
Cool, just wanted to check in. I may be in the market for a small quantity later this week. Thanks for the info
02:28
I P
https://discord.gg/Fq7wQ this is an invite to trading channel in discord, it is easier to find sellers/buyers there
02:39
Phil Bonello
Thanks
05:07
O K
Anyone want to think of some good market ideas that would be fun to bet on?
05:10
Zack
We could bet on whether an upcoming block hash will be even or odd
05:11
O K
Ooh a coin flip type deal, that could be fun
05:12
Zack
Anyone who bets at a price >50 is throwing money away.
05:13
I want to challenge some other blockchain author to a duel of the minds. A game of go.
05:14
Mandel Hoff
World cup coming up in a few months. Should make for good bet scenarios
05:15
O K
Does Justin Sun play
05:16
Zack
world cup is a good idea
05:18
We could bet on the future price of some cryptocurrency
05:19
How about a market on whether or not Amoveo is available on an exchange by a certain date
05:20
Then I would try and finish the exchange by the deadline to win some bets
05:22
O K
That's clever, all good ideas. Hopefully some other people who haven't participated before might have some ideas that they think are fun so we might get a market going with maybe 10 people and afew matches. I'm still willing to match a small bet, I'm sure flinstone would too
05:23
Some unfinished thoughts from last time: it might be helpful to list unmatched bets in text form and possibly include what someone would need to bet to match... I was thinking a button or link "match bet" would be ideal in the future, but right now the channel situation makes that difficult
05:25
Zack
When Veo are so illiquid, it makes betting hard. You don't know how much you are risking.
I think it will be easier to get people to participate once the exchange is working.
05:26
The people who are interested in being miners are different from the people who want to bet.
05:26
O K
Yes I've been known to be a bit of a split personality
05:27
But lots of miners want higher prices, making veo more useful is a good way to get two birds stoned at once
05:39
I P
mobile wallet with pretty ui and youtube videos explaining veo, features etc would be nice as a step to broader adoption
05:40
Zack
I was thinking we should take the old Aeternity video, and edit it to say "Amoveo".
05:41
The mobile wallet works well, making the ui pretty shouldn't be too hard for the right person.
06:00
Mr Flintstone
any interest in nba playoff related markets?
06:01
I suppose in theory you could create a market and mirror the Vegas odds ex most of the vig?
06:01
for the yes/no bets
06:22
Sy
all that betting might get in our way later, gambling and stuff
06:23
Zack
Amoveo is a gambling platform. Its one and only application is financial derivatives.
If we avoid gambling, then it has no purpose.
06:23
NBA playoffs could be good
06:31
How about a market on whether I get interviewed about amoveo by some podcast
06:31
Epicenter is a good one
06:47
Deleted Account
why would it be a problem? decentralized gambling where no central party takes a cut - i dont think it's illegal
06:47
futures are exactly that
06:52
Mandel Hoff
Insurance, gambling, and derivatives are all pretty similar at the Amoveo core.
06:52
Zack
http://bitcoinhivemind.com/Paul Sztorc is a genius.
He was my biggest inspiration.
Amoveo is my take on his idea.
My contribution is in moving the markets off-chain into the lightning network, which makes it more scalable.
Also I changed the oracle design to make it able to handle a larger volume of bets at the same time, and to make the oracle more affordable.
I highly recommend everything that Paul wrote. He produces so many good ideas, and is much better at writing and talking than I am.
06:55
How about we make a market for whether an Amoveo post is #1 on Hacker News in a certain time period?
07:02
Iridescence
The hacker news crowd isn't that friendly towards crypto projects
07:03
I would be willing to bet a few VEO against that ๐
07:04
Though I don't own how susceptible it is to bot manipulation, so maybe it's not a good bet
07:04
Zack
The only times they have had posts about me was when I left Augur and when I left Aeternity, so I think you are right. They aren't friendly to cryptocurrency.
07:05
Iridescence
Hacker news is always skeptical toward crypto
07:05
Zack
I am not so friendly to typical cryptocurrency projects either. Maybe their attitude has benefits.
07:06
Hacker news has been screaming that Bitcoin is a scam since it was $10
07:06
Zack
So maybe it is easier to get a #1 post if it says "Amoveo is a scam, watch out!"
07:06
Iridescence
Hahahaha
07:07
You are probably right
07:17
Kale
One veo=one lambo
07:35
I P
can we bet if large scale war begins in syria or not?
07:36
oh wow did not realize it is there for many years anyways
07:37
it is just now that this topic is brought to attention
07:37
Zack
you can make any oracle you want, and then make markets to bet on that.
I don't want to waste my money making markets that I think wont be popular.
For the market to work properly, there needs to be an easy way to tell if the answer to the question is Yes or No.
"Large scale war" might mean something different to you and to me.
07:40
Zack
The price of Veo moves around too much, people probably wont be interested in making a bet that takes more than 2 weeks or a month to settle.
07:57
Mr Flintstone
the human population one is interesting
08:03
Mike
Wouldnโt all bets have to be backed? Like โbackโ or โlayโ options on a betting exchange. Mirroring Vegas odds with less vig would make the oracle owner(?) the bookmaker, given he provides the odds and the liquidity
08:06
Iโm guessing the oracle would act as a betting exchange, and in that case I guess it could generate worthwhile fees
08:09
Zack
the oracle is an on-chain data-structure similar to an account. You can make bets in an oracle, but you only make bets after we know the result. So it isn't gambling at that point, it is more like reporting on the result.
The market is a centralized server where you can make bets on the what you think the outcome of an oracle will be in the future.
Bets in the market are enforced by channels.
If a bet takes 2 steps, User - market server - user, then it locks up some money from the person who runs the centralized market.
Eventually we will make it so that the bet can trustlessly be moved from the 2-step path to a direct 1-step path between the 2 users, which unlocks the central market's funds, that way the market can afford to serve more customers.
08:10
Mr Flintstone
I just think this is a way that you can profit off of the work of the odds maker without actually doing the work
08:11
idk that much about that industry tho so there could be nuance Iโm missing
08:12
O K
I disagree with this, the market can speak for itself but I think people will be willing to factor in their expectations of veo in their bet calculations
08:12
Or at least, not care
08:13
I want to have fun with it, I expect making some bets makes veo more useful than augur right now, and that's cool ๐ I'm willing to burn some veo or "throw it away" was your word choice, to play around with it
08:15
Zack
yeah, I should say that differently.
To make a bet, you need a channel that is open long enough so that the bet can be enforced. The channel needs to be open for longer than the expiration of the oracle.
Paying to have a channel open this long needs to be proportionate to the risk that the server is taking by leaving money in the channel this long.
Since the volatility is high, the time-value of Veo is high, so the server needs to charge a lot for how long the channel can be open for.
If you want to make a channel that stays open for 10,000 blocks, then I think the cost of opening the channel will be bigger than the amount of money you can put into the channel.
08:16
I P
btw that bet "The difficulty at height 14001 according to wallet.html is above 2006 terahashes per block." how did it go?
08:16
diff is over 2006 th per block
08:17
Zack
the outcome is "True", but we still haven't closed the oracle or market.
08:17
I misread what you said, I do agree with you
08:17
Shorter is better for now
08:18
Zack
Blockchain prediction markets are very new technology. There is still probably a lot of room for innovation.
08:19
Mr Flintstone
in the future, how will someone hedge long term risk using amoveo?
08:21
Zack
As the market cap grows, the volatility should shrink. So it will become easier to make bets that take longer to settle.
Maybe we will move some stable-coin contract on-chain, and then make a channel priced in stable-coins.
08:23
Mr Flintstone
the fee per block a channel is open is a governance variable?
08:24
Zack
Maybe the channels will have layers. So the second layer of channel's balance is determined by the outcome of the first layer of channels
08:24
no. Each server that you make channels with can decide it's own fees in the config file.
08:25
Mr Flintstone
as a server operator, why wouldnโt I just set the channel fee very low to facilitate use?
08:27
sorry if this is basic lightning shit
08:28
Zack
Economics is pretty difficult. Maybe I am making a mistake here. it is a good question to ask.
08:34
It is possible to run a server with low channel fees, but you are taking on a lot of risk by leaving your money locked up.
If running a channel server isn't a profitable as other investments, then investors wont invest. They would prefer to put their money elsewhere to make a better profit.
It is like asking, why is the rent so high? Why don't landlords charge less for rent?
Landlords could charge less, and channel servers could charge less too. But people aren't so generous. People are self-interested.
There is a market price for investment. If any particular investment is less profitable than the market price, then no one will participate.
08:35
Maybe I am wrong.
Maybe there are people who are heavily invested in Amoveo, and they are willing to take a loss while running a lightning server because it helps them to make a profit when Veo increases in price.
But I think that this effect will decrease over time as the number of people holding Veo increases.
If you only hold 0.1% of the Veo, then running an altruistically cheap channel server wont change the price of Veo enough to matter.
08:45
Mr Flintstone
what if i want to run a server just to hedge my personal risk? Then it would make sense to set the fee to zero
08:45
like I run a server specifically to make markets that allow me to for example hedge my rainfall risk next year if Iโm a farmer
08:46
Zack
Maybe you don't need a server. if you know the person who will take the other side of the bet, you could just make a channel with them alone without running a server.
08:46
Mr Flintstone
interesting
08:47
so there could be a cheap but centralized way to find people to make channels with for specific markets? rather than needing lightning servers
08:47
then the trust is slightly less minimized but it could make sense as a trade off
08:48
Zack
Yes, you could run a server and only let customers bet in one direction to hedge your risk, and put limits so you stop accepting customers once you are fully hedged.
And yes, you are right, in this case you wouldn't have to charge a fee.
This is a good idea. We should probably write about it and put it in the docs.
08:48
This is probably how dominant assurance contract servers would work too.
08:53
Very cool idea.
I was only thinking of the abstract case where everyone was totally specialized in their own niche, but sometimes if we combine 2 jobs it can result in more efficiency.
Almost like vertical integration in business.
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15:53
Deleted Account
how much now
18:41
Kale
What's the meaning about"Txs Pending Confirmation
"
19:20
Deleted Account
can the difficulty be stable in the next adjustment?
19:28
Kale
Who WTB Veo now?i can sell 20 veo
19:36
Kale
R u kidding me?
19:36
O K
It means the tx (transaction) has been sent, but is not considered confirmed by our metrics, which as of right now is 51 blocks. However if you go to a light wallet, you will often find the transaction has cleared after only one block. If you spend it, and the network forks, it may undo that transaction.
19:37
I P
it is my price. if you don't like it, don't sell to me
19:37
Kale
Nobody weill sell to u
19:39
I P
well ok, i will wait
19:41
Deleted Account
can you give me an offer?
19:44
Aizen Sou
sell orders are from 190$-230$
19:44
Buy orders 50$-150$ :P
19:46
O K
We should have a public spreadsheet for the orderbook for now ๐
19:46
Aizen Sou
Someone needs to integrate the bot to discord
19:47
I P
or we could list on a small exchange like graviex or so
19:48
Aizen Sou
No need, they will come
19:51
Sy
nobody will be eager to implement veo yet, everything about the wallet is custom
19:53
Sy
thats one way to put it
20:14
O K
Which bot is best?
21:42
Zack
@potat_o it looks like your server amoveopool2 is deleting accounts when people dont' want to delete their accounts. THis is bad, someone lost over 40 Veo because of this.
21:43
Once an account is deleted it is not secure to continue using that account.
21:44
O K
The pool only uses the light wallet
21:47
Mandel Hoff
There are no buttons in the amoveopool code to delete accounts at all. It is not something you can do from the pool wallet or UI.
21:48
Zack
ok, thanks for saying
21:49
Mandel Hoff
The javascript is nearly identical to your light wallet, so the 'delete functions' might still be in there as a copy/paste artifact, but they are not hooked up to any buttons. The pool never sends the keys to the server. Everything is signed on the client side just like the node's light wallet too.
21:50
Zack
ok, i am getting rid of the delete account button, because it seems like it is causing more problems than benefits.
21:54
Sy
why would anyone delete his account to begin with?
21:55
Zack
to recover space.
You get paid a reward for this.
21:55
it is like at a grocery store where you need to stick a coin into the thing to get a cart, and you get your coin back when you return the cart.
21:57
Greg
this could be added in the readme if not already
21:57
Zack
ok, I updated both my servers to get rid of the delete account button.
21:59
Deleting accounts isn't so important any more. Since making the delete account transaction type, I made Amoveo able to have sharding.
Now that we support sharding, the amount of memory a node needs can be arbitrarily small, so it doesn't really matter if accounts get deleted.
21:59
It is better that we keep it simple and have less things to worry about.
22:24
Mr Flintstone
yeah.
22:24
account deletion allows for more kinds of social engineering to scam people
22:25
this may outweigh benefit chain data savings, esp if we have sharding
22:25
Zack
it is gone from the light node already.
22:26
Mr Flintstone
maybe in documentation that describes delete account function we can put a bold warning to not reuse the pub key?
22:28
Zack
good idea. I just added warnings.
02:00
dont understand this completely but he is alerting web wallet developers
02:02
O K
Doesn't appear that Zack uses SecureRandom()
02:02
* do not write cryptographic tools in non-type safe languages
02:03
Deleted Account
excellent!
02:58
Zack
Emin blocks me from viewing his tweets, so I can't read it.
02:59
Zack
There are problems with random number generators. Some browsers are using bad generators.
That is why I made the light wallet so you can type in your own entropy.
03:00
O K
Is using the default address a bad idea?
03:00
Maybe it should not provide a fresh address without input?
03:01
Zack
Depends on your browser.
It uses the random number generator from the elliptic curve library.
And the elliptic curve library uses a different random number generator depending on what is available to your browser.
I think in some cases it does end up using secure random, the library that this paper says is no good.
03:18
Vladimir Vorkachev
hello all
03:19
can someone help me to figure out how I can check a balance
03:19
I'm running a full client under ubuntu 16.04
03:19
I've downloaded headers
03:20
O K
Is this what you're looking for ?
03:20
Vladimir Vorkachev
then I've generated a new pubkey
03:20
no, I've read it of course
03:20
with keys:new("password").
03:21
password was custom
03:21
now I have a pubkey
03:21
and on blockchain I have a balance of 16VEO
03:21
but in full client get balance shows 0
03:21
O K
block:height().
03:21
Vladimir Vorkachev
also I cannot get how I can dump private keys to use a light client
03:22
block:height().
is always zero even though block height is actual
03:22
Vladimir Vorkachev
I cannot get why its not syncing
03:23
sync:start().
<0.1893.0>
(amoveo_core_prod@vvork-rig2)46> syncing with this peer now [-7,[-7,209,250,248,93],8080]
trade peers
get their top header
get blocks from them.
another get_blocks thread
block organizer add
03:23
O K
api:off().
halt().
make prod-clean
make prod-restart
sync:start().
03:23
type sync:start(). again if it doesn't start
03:23
It will choose another peer
03:25
Vladimir Vorkachev
the absorbtion started
03:25
how I can get private key to use light client?
03:26
while my keys.db is encrypted
03:26
O K
1) make a new wallet with a light node
2) spend from full node to light node pubkey
03:27
Vladimir Vorkachev
thats what I was expecting
03:27
but hoped that it will be more transparent
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03:38
Jeff
How does this relate to the Lightning Network?
03:39
Some of the TX types are for making channels.
03:40
O K
The lightning network, in this case is implemented on Amoveo. This is not related to Bitcoin's specific lightning network
03:40
Jeff
So Amoveo has it's own Lightning Network?
03:40
Is there any interoperability?
03:40
Or could you implement a similar functionality into the Bitcoin Lightning Network?
03:41
Zack
All the lightning networks will eventually be one big network. Since you can make a payment that starts on onto blockchain, and ends on a different blockchain.
03:41
Bitcoin channels are more limited. They aren't turing complete like amoveo channels.
03:42
Bitcoin would need a really big hard fork to support turing complete state channels.
03:45
Jeff
Thanks for all the info!
03:53
Vladimir Vorkachev
Thanks I've got an access to my money
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04:45
Mike
Anyone have quick maths on GPU mining profitability on VEO @$140 versus Ethereum @$420
04:47
I think many smaller exchanges would be willing to for a small fee, certainly a fee the larger VEO holders can afford
04:48
Not that I particularly care or want Amoveo listed on some legally shady exchange
04:50
O K
Veo is way more profitable...
04:59
Deleted Account
lol. why ?
05:06
Mr Flintstone
lol maybe we should have an exchange reward along with a dev reward for the first x blocks of amoveos existence that is used for the expressed purpose of paying exchanges to list veo
05:08
that seems incentive compatible
05:12
Jim
Stumbled on this while writing RNG using stuff in Python. To my knowledge, this problem is isolated to JavaScript.
05:13
Since the privkey is just 256 bits, you could technically generate that any way you want (software, dice,
random.org. radioisotope, etc), or just take SHA256 of anything. Then load that key into client. If youโre truly paranoid.
05:15
Mr Flintstone
if youโre truly next level paranoid you plug in a mic to an air gapped computer, record some audio, hash the file then use the hash as your entropy lol
05:15
donโt need to worry about any kind of rng algo
05:15
all of this inside of a double faraday cage
05:15
Jim
Yes, hardware is the way to go for information theoretic security. Most people donโt need info theoretic security.
05:49
Zack
I think I called him out for saying something incorrect about channels or oracles in 2015. I can't remember, it was a long time ago.
05:50
The light node already supports this. That is what the brain wallet feature does.
07:05
Deleted Account
wtb VEO 85$ each , pm for more info
07:06
Zack
https://discord.gg/FAn6CTYou will probably have an easier time trading in the discord. There is a channel for trading there.
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07:07
Deleted Account
thx zack
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09:10
Zack
@potat_o 40 minutes since last block. 8x longer than the average of last 20 blocks.
09:11
1/256 chance that this would happen randomly.
09:12
Zack
there are 2 pools. it seems very unlikely that they would both break at once. so I guess it must be randomness.
09:13
Zack
It happens about 8 times per difficulty adjustment.
False alarm.
09:19
O K
I like that you included the probability
09:20
Zack
now we are in a 1/1024 block situation. getting pretty rare.
09:21
I just did a trade with someone, and am waiting for confirmations
09:21
O K
I did give everything a once over at least
09:21
Zack
I think it is one of those, "watched pots never boils" situations.
09:28
Deleted Account
where to find net hashrate again?
09:30
Deleted Account
ok thx
09:42
can someone help me make self mining, or mining pool? can donate fudns for help =)
09:46
I am at 1 gh/s right now
09:49
I P
wow did not check on my node but it seems like it is still working lol
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16:04
and yes no block is usually random aswell as 2 blocks within 20s - it happens every now and then
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19:47
O K
Welcome everybody! How did you hear about Amoveo?
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20:31
Zack
I recently shared the telegram link on Twitter.
20:32
I think someone from Japan posted on Twitter about amoveo recently.
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03:43
Aizen Sou
No, don't let the FOMOs going too soon๐คฃ
03:50
Minieep21
Wouldn't mind that sort of development :)
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04:56
Mr Flintstone
im more excited for economic activity on the markets
04:56
That is going to drive adoption
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08:09
Deleted Account
@potat_o i tried to consolidate multiple wallets into one primary but for some reason the send button on
amoveopool2.com did noting. Am i doing this incorrectly?
08:09
Or rather is there a correct way?
08:10
Check your addresses before you send anything
08:10
Did you wait for a block to be mined?
08:11
Deleted Account
I dont think i did, sorry im a bit new. Do i just click the wallet link on
veoscan.io?
08:12
You'll be using the spend button, not raw spend
08:12
You'll have to load your private key
08:12
But wait a block and see if the transactions get sent first, you can check your balance there ^
08:13
Deleted Account
Ty so much
08:13
O K
Happy to help :)
08:30
Deleted Account
It took me several hours to read the latest monthโs discussion in the community. It was really magic. I've been following zack's twitter for weeks. He did a great job and it was amazing. I think the amoveopool is also very good and fantastic. It is very much expected that amoveo will be able to achieve great success. I got 2 1080TIs and I have been digging for a few weeks. Unfortunately, there are not a few, and the difficulty is too high.
08:32
Zack I'm your super fan and like your job
08:35
@potat_o I I read Zack's leaving AE note post on GitHub to know Amoveo!
08:36
O K
I think that's where I started too ๐
08:37
Deleted Account
I am very much in agreement with the concept of zack๐
08:38
and put my heart Into Amove's embrace
08:39
Deleted Account
The power increases quickly, but it is too concentrated
08:40
O K
Things change very quickly
08:40
Deleted Account
hope so๐
08:41
Also hope that the application market will be able to
08:41
O K
We've had a couple markets going, have you seen them on
veoscan.io?
08:41
Deleted Account
yes
08:44
How to apply to financial derivatives in the future?
09:16
Deleted Account
the difficulty is really too high.
09:16
soon we will be out of this game
09:27
Deleted Account
I rent a p100 $0.5/hours for 2.8GH/s,and the cost very expensive
09:32
Deleted Account
after about 950 blocks,the diff will be goinv to the moon
09:32
Deleted Account
I think that amoveo can be used in many valuable markets supported by entities in the future instead of selling the dug coins. And in this ecosystem, there is a small business that can start and at the same time help the world to become less monopolized.
09:33
I P
so u spend 12$ for 0.1 veo which puts it at 120$
09:33
Deleted Account
yes
09:34
because pool stopped sometime
09:34
P100 is not as efficient as 1080ti
10:19
Mr Flintstone
you can create financial derivatives right now
10:19
though from a financial engineering perspective itโs pretty nascent
10:20
Deleted Account
how some paper to guide to do it.
10:21
Mr Flintstone
have you been to zacks github?
10:21
Deleted Account
yes,i read the readme
10:28
Deleted Account
๐๐๐๐
11:18
Deleted Account
Zack I don't know much about how the median timestamp stuff works in btc or amoveo but I was wondering if an oracle for time is possibly a way to have a secure source of block timestamps? Such that a timestamp attack is very expensive to pull off because you are guaranteed to lose the bet needed to fake it. I guess honest nodes using an NTP service they trust could make bets in an automated fashion, assuming that doing it by hand every 10 minutes (or less!) is not practical.
11:19
I also don't understand the oracles well, so not sure if it is impractical to pose the question of block times as a yes/no question...
11:19
on an unrelated note: is there an official pronounciation of AmoVeo?
11:20
I first read it as "a-move-eo"
11:20
but then saw it capitalised somewhere, making me think it must be "ammo vayo" (rhymes with mayo)
11:20
but maybe it is "ammo vee-o"?
12:57
Deleted Account
Hey who runs amoveopool2 for a tech support question?
13:07
Sy
@potat_o does but you are usually faster if you just ask your question
13:12
Deleted Account
Ok so I seem to have Veo missing
13:12
I took screenshots before and after
13:12
Then reward went up 1, but total Veo has not
13:13
Checked Zacks node also, same number of Veo. I thought I've seen this happen before but never took screenshots.
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15:36
Sy
@jimtalksdata can you add a url to your stats that just returns the current block height?
15:46
Zack
We have made oracles about the timestamp before and bet on them.
The blockchain can't read english, so it doesn't know what we are betting on, so the difficulty can't be dependent on the outcome of an Oracle.
Oracles only return 3 possible outcomes: true/false/bad-question. So it isn't useful for measuring a period of time.
15:47
Fee is about 1/650 of a Veo.
17:36
Deleted Account
the next difficulty adjustment will make us miserable
17:38
can we make a change and begin to use mVEO ?
17:44
Sy
and that would make it different how?
17:44
first diff adjust was times 4, next one is probably +50%, i dont see your point tbh
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18:21
shiggidy (will never dm you first)
How long does it take for a block to confirm?
18:34
shiggidy (will never dm you first)
Ahh ok
18:34
I haven't had any balance increase in like the last hour
19:11
Mr Flintstone
you only get balance increase when they find blocks
19:11
also I believe there is a certain number of confirm blocks before the balance is shown as well. I donโt mine so idk for sure but
@potat_o is the operator so he should know
19:25
shiggidy (will never dm you first)
Thanks that what I was curious about
19:25
Just how long until it shows on my account
19:26
shiggidy (will never dm you first)
Looks like it's at least 3 hours
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22:41
Deleted Account
mining from the first day. and Now I get 10 veo in total
22:46
Deleted Account
in total
22:47
0.2 veo per day now.
23:26
O K
$1600 or so, not bad!
