Amoveo ♥🧿
27 November 2018
Z
02:13
Zack
The 50 thousandth veo is about to be mined.
MF
02:13
Mr Flintstone
yup, should be in a few hours
AK
02:25
A K
at $0.1/kW*h it costs $65-70 to mine one VEO currently
02:25
assuming 1080Ti at 4.5 GH/s at 250 Watts
Z
02:26
Zack
If the price is significantly higher than the cost of production, that is a sign the block reward is too big, right?
OK
02:28
O K
In reply to this message
Maybe, but I think you're misinterpreting the data. Relative to the history of mining veo, it's very expensive to mine right now
[
02:49
[Riki]
+ add asset depreciation
AK
02:51
A K
i’d say at every moment in time it should be in equilibrium, right?
02:51
more mining power “knows” about veo, just recently there was 120 th/s
02:51
but they’re not coming back, so
Z
02:53
Zack
you are misreading the data. the highest it got was 89.4
02:54
120 was just the upper bound on the range being measured
AK
02:55
A K
EWAH was at 120 no?
Z
02:56
Zack
That number jumps around a lot due to randomness.
OK
03:21
O K
In reply to this message
But what was the price?
Aries invited Angel Freeman
[
03:25
[Riki]
its misleading to compare current cost of mining with spot price of veo. it has to do a lot with expectations about future price of veo. otherwise, miners would sell at spot price, which is not the case because daily trading volume is below what is being mined daily. or, miners would not mine at loss if they would not expect price in future to rise. there is a time difference between cost and realised revenues from mining in most cases.
OK
03:26
O K
In reply to this message
We should examine mining qua mining and speculation qua speculation, IMO
03:26
Not all miners speculate
[
03:27
[Riki]
In reply to this message
i think most veo miners do. those who dont, they mine eth 😛. this is not just a guess but an opinion from at least 10 other miners that i know and who mine veo, even at loss, because they speculate to gain more in future.
007 007 invited 007 007
OK
03:29
O K
Perhaps most, but I've been asked many times, exchange owners can also attest, can they mine to exch addr
00
03:32
007 007
Please share the baht file and miner for Nvideo maps.
MF
05:22
Mr Flintstone
50k at next block
AK
05:23
A K
I hope it unlocks some Easter egg
M⛏
05:25
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
Special 10 Veo reward to whoever finds block 50k
V
05:34
Victor
What is the most actual miner for nVidia and AMD?
Z
05:35
Zack
Maybe ask in the mining channel on discord
V
05:38
Victor
FYI, there is a current FPGA that works on expanding to different algos.
I am sure that Amoveo hasn't attracted that manufacturer yet, due to low liquidity, but their devices can appear suddenly.
05:39
If you are looking for info, I can share it.
05:47
it is real
Z
05:49
Zack
Amoveo's mining algorithm is designed to be as easy to implement as possible.
I wouldn't be surprised if someone has been using fpga for months already.

Fpga cost a lot more than gpu, so they have been a worse investment so far.
That is why gpu have been more popular.

Eventually when the profit margins are tighter, then fpga will be the better investment.

The only reason people would use fpga for mining now is if they already have fpga.
V
05:55
Victor
Zack: Yeah, I know it's SHA with some modifications and I have read your motives about commoditisation of mining hardware.
I though miners would not bother having some additional info.
05:57
That FPGA I pointed to is RAM-less.
M
07:23
Mike
In reply to this message
Many may believe an exchange address is easier and safer. If one of the two exchanges were hacked right now, would we let the hacker keep his VEO?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
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10:31
Deleted Account
Can those trading bots really make money? I heard that a platform called fmz quant could write trading strategies by users. I don't know how that works.
BS
10:38
Bo Smubo
What's the name of rent amazon GPu?
10:38
P100 large?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Heath invited Heath
H
17:16
Heath
In reply to this message
It was off that manufacturer’s discord that I learnt about Amoveo. Users are requesting a bitsteam to mine veo.
M
17:28
Marek
Who is the owner of the amoveo.exchange ?
S
17:37
Sebsebzen
@demiculus
M
18:26
Marek
Perhaps it would have been nice if there was bet channel on Insight landing success /failure
18:26
:)
MF
20:21
Mr Flintstone
someone posted this on twitter
M
20:44
Minieep21
You got the tweet? I'll retweet
Alex C invited Alex C
S
21:03
Shaun
Looks like a pretty well compiled and overall objective post. Props to whoever wrote it
AK
21:06
A K
judging from the website, the content might be a copy-paste from somewhere
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
22:26
Shaun
Btw this is the original tweet link I think https://twitter.com/fx_c_com/status/1067112309208756224
MF
22:31
Mr Flintstone
ya
V
23:16
Victor
$bagholder "journalist" detected.
MF
23:59
Mr Flintstone
while they did basically just copy and paste the wp and excerpts from the GitHub docs , I think it does do a pretty good job of communicating the different ideas behind amoveo
28 November 2018
Z
00:03
Zack
The Amoveo part is longest. I am guessing that they are an Amoveo whale who is trying to get people from the other projects on the list to notice Amoveo.
[
00:04
[Riki]
so maybe zack you wrote it yourself
Z
00:05
Zack
I didn't
LB
00:06
Luke B
It might be exan.tech's venture group that bought a bunch of VEO
Deleted invited Deleted Account
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Я
15:05
Ярослав
block reward raised ? )))
16:58
Can light node be ported to ESP32? :)
Z
16:59
Zack
The light node is javascript
17:00
The full node could probably be made compatible with atom VM. It might already work.
SS
20:11
Spike Spiegel
Which card is best for veo?
20:12
Is there a table with hashpower per card/
AK
20:12
A K
calc.exan.tech has some
20:12
roughly 4.5 gh/s for 1080Ti
SS
20:14
Spike Spiegel
Nobody tried RTX 2080 yet?
AK
20:14
A K
from other ccys it makes no sense
20:14
at current prices
[
20:14
[Riki]
aint no one got money for 2080
20:14
its comparable to 1080ti
S
20:29
Sy
and i heared they like living on the edge ^^
Cicero invited Cicero
29 November 2018
Josh invited Josh
04:33
Deleted Account
Amoveos shot for a minute of fame. Wikileaks latest tweet: Question: What's the best "define your own bet" market where WikiLeaks can let the general public bet on who will be proved trustworthy and accurate, WikiLeaks or the Guardian?
MF
04:35
Mr Flintstone
they would both need to make a prediction about something publicly known that is quantifiable
Deleted invited Deleted Account
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. invited .
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OK
08:48
O K
You can find more info on the github
a p invited a p
Deleted invited Deleted Account
11:00
Deleted Account
is amoveo.pro official site ?
Z
11:00
Zack
nothing is official
MF
11:03
Mr Flintstone
except this telegram group name
А
11:39
Андрюхин
In reply to this message
))))
Deleted invited Deleted Account
AK
14:08
A K
Damn was supposed to be a nice smile
Aleksandr Khomutov invited Aleksandr Khomutov
Deleted invited Deleted Account
16:58
Deleted Account
Does anyone familiar with “fmz quant” platform? Does they support arbitrage strategy? In the bear market now, arbitrage trading it he only choice we left right? Small range of volatility, trend strategy seems not doing so good.
Ritvars invited Ritvars
SS
19:42
Spike Spiegel
Any "platform" which provides arb trading is scam
19:43
Arbitrage is usually very limited in both time and money - arbitrageurs don't need outside capital
AK
19:43
A K
It's a bot
Tim invited Tim
S
20:44
Sy
arbitrage isnt that complicated automated, you just have to be able to lock enough funds
20:44
and your coin mustnt go to hell xD
SS
21:33
Spike Spiegel
And exchange can default
21:34
Usually persistent arb oportunities have a reason - for example some exchange may have high withdrawal fees or temporary disable
MF
21:44
Mr Flintstone
the amount of money to be made via an arbitrage strategy is measured in number of dollars and not %. so if someone is selling you an arbitrage strategy it is likely either a scam or won’t work.
🤠Anton invited 🤠Anton
Deleted invited Deleted Account
30 November 2018
AK
00:01
A K
Anyone checked how funfair.io do their state channels on ETH?
00:02
They have no oracle design yet, but state channels are declared to be working
00:07
5 Our Solution: Fate Channels
We have invented a provably fair system using state channels
containing pre-committed partial RNG seeds provided sepa-
rately by the player and the operator. These partial seeds are
comitted to the blockchain at the start of the gaming session.
State channels work by allowing participants to engage in a
rapid back-and-forth countersigning of updated “claims” on
an escrowed amount of funds. The Bitcoin Lightning protocol
was the first to popularize the idea. On EthereumVM-capable
blockchains, State channels are very simple to create and im-
plement – a smart contract holds escrowed funds, and then
releases when the state channel participants request it.
During gaming, we create instead a “Fate Channel”; a State
channel with the added ability to verify a progressive reveal
scheme by both parties, advancing a deterministic (“fated”) but
unpredictable sequence of random numbers.
Details of our Fate Channel implementation will follow our to-
ken sale; for now we feel it gives us and our token holders a
competitive advantage to keep implementation details private
a little bit longer.
MF
00:32
Mr Flintstone
The last sentence is a little sus
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AK
00:51
A K
yeah (
Al invited Al
Simak off invited Simak off
Tv
04:31
Tarrence van As
Zack the github mentions that if two participants take opposide sides of a bet, initially the market maker is the coutner party and needs to lock collateral to cover each bet. However, it suggests that it is possible to match the two betters directly and free up the market makers collatoral. Could you provide more info on how this is done? Do the two participants need to interact with each other to transition to a peer-to-peer bet or is it possible for the market maker to do so without any interaction from them?
s
04:58
sanket
Anybody here can help?

I made a big mistake. Just got scammed of 59 VEO because of greed and carelessness.

QueenFlorence (discord user) message me with a deal and I accepted it. He asked to contact sONk for escrow. He made a server with 3 of us. The timing was such I did not remember to see the discord id. I wasn't thinking right.

I sent him a small txn and he confirmed. Then I sent him all of it.

He deleted everything at that time and that's when I realise I got scammed.
Just lost all of my VEO holding.

This was the address to which it was sent.
https://veoscan.io/account/BMoSc%252B5TgNEOLD4TNadjxwoJQBEz1K549Ge44pLQOOelb5xwCJX5ols%252BG47Febn75lAXJf3tEAqeDxYgn6IUaqo%253D

I know I should have cross check multiple times and it was too good a deal to accept it(0.06 btc for 1 Veo)
But I forgot all the basic hygiene. Accumulated for 8 months and then lost it all in 8 seconds.
OK
05:14
O K
Zack
05:15
In reply to this message
Can you screenshot the conversation etc
05:16
I'm not sure what can be done. Maybe contacting exchanges is a start.
05:16
I'm sorry that happened to you
AK
05:16
A K
So sorry, I've seen his/her offers, seemed shady as fuck.
s
05:21
sanket
05:22
In reply to this message
How can it be done?
The address which I sent to has a long history of transaction.
OK
05:22
O K
On the discord, @ the qtrade people and amoveo.exchange people
05:23
I am away from my desk or I would do it for you
s
05:24
sanket
I mentioned in the channel.
AK
05:33
A K
In reply to this message
A lot of transactions come from mining
s
05:34
sanket
Yeah but they sell too.
p
05:59
private_pr0perty
Hello. Can I trust qtrade.io for trading veo?
OK
05:59
O K
Haven't seen any reason not to trust either exchange
p
06:00
private_pr0perty
Thank you
Z
07:37
Zack
In reply to this message
The benefit of using a market is that the contract can be matched at the market price.

There is a plan for moving bets from indirect paths to direct paths. It is a simple application of hash locking.
No one programmed a tool for that yet.

The smart contracts are turing complete, so we can program many things.

A more short term goal is for making customized bets between pairs of people without any market.
This way there is no extra colateral locked up. It is nice for cfd contracts, which are often customized and traded otc.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
11:35
Deleted Account
hey guys, just wonder what is the easiest way to send veo?
11:38
is this safe to use http://amoveo.exan.tech/ ?
m
11:56
mm
By lack of https I can already tell it’s unsafe
11:57
(They support https, but it should be enforced)
11:59
And even when you connect via https it communicates with node via http
S
12:03
Sebsebzen
@osher2osher
12:03
is that something that could be implemented?
m
12:04
mm
What not using zack lighting wallet?
OK
12:12
O K
In reply to this message
Zack's light wallet is also not https, for the record
m
12:12
mm
But usually you run it locally? I hope!
OK
12:12
O K
And I agree, it would be preferable
12:13
In reply to this message
Depending on the wallet, sure
S
12:41
Sebsebzen
desktop wallet would be cool too
DV
14:57
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
as Zack said, using https doesn't add much to safety here, since all the data used by web wallet are stored as merkle proofs or sent to the full node signed.

anyway, I think we'll force https on amoveo.exan.tech eventually
S
16:17
Sebsebzen
amoveo.pro ;)
16:18
You’re like redhat
16:18
Kinda like this setup
16:19
Keeps things clean and compartmentalized
AK
16:19
A K
In reply to this message
Yeah I remember vivid battles here on this ))
S
16:20
Sebsebzen
Maybe there will be several service providers for VEO in the future and they can received development funds via futarchy mechanism
16:20
Which makes the project more antifragile and efficient
16:20
Than ICO which received millions of USD upfront and has little incentive to deliver anything afterwards
H
16:25
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
In reply to this message
Agreed! Qt wallet would be awesome.
m
16:52
mm
In reply to this message
Doesn’t matter, because I can inject arbitrary JavaScript if it’s served via http. And steal your keys. Or subvert pseudo random number generator to predict generated keys if I want to be stealthy .
AK
16:56
A K
The full node doesn't have HTTPS afair, that was the show stopper
DV
16:58
Denis Voskvitsov
yes, that's good reason to secure channel. you're right.
16:59
In reply to this message
it shouldn't. we can wrap requests with https-supporting web server. it's not that straightforward due to some default node settings, but possible ofc
m
17:48
mm
I think things like that should be included in technical comparison with other projects.
m
18:04
mm
Aeternity for example uses noise protocol for communication between nodes.
18:05
Amoveo needs solids foundations like that to compete with others.
AK
18:16
A K
http://noiseprotocol.org/ ?
18:16
is it solid, or is it the case of "roll your own crypto"
m
18:36
mm
Very solid. They really did good job with it
18:37
But... I don’t know about Erlang implementation. maybe it’s not so solid
G
18:45
Gregor
Hi all, I’m pretty new to Amoveo. I’d like to start playing with mining. Have an Intel NUC i5 with 16gb RAM. Would that work? Or would I need a gpu miner?
AK
18:48
A K
only GPU at this point
18:49
Hi )
[
19:09
[Riki]
Only fpga at this point 😆
m
19:56
mm
Still on fpga, lol? Only asic at this point
[
19:57
[Riki]
Animation
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122.8 KB
AK
19:59
A K
yeah, canaan selling all models at $200, should do double hashrate on veo, amirite?
[
20:00
[Riki]
3x
20:02
Its like a gtx 4080ti
T
22:20
Tromp
22:21
22:21
Ok guys who is keeping the price down?
22:21
Who is the mega whale?
MF
22:30
Mr Flintstone
looks like an early miner exiting
22:30
at least one of their pubkeys I mean
T
22:36
Tromp
O okk makes sense
N
22:37
NM$L
HODL
T
22:42
Tromp
Hodl till 5 billion mkt cap 🍺
22:43
There is no hurry my friend 👍🏻
N
22:56
NM$L
why pump today
А
22:58
Андрюхин
why not ?
T
23:24
Tromp
Hahaha
1 December 2018
J
00:06
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
Ath was like 0.1 btc?
M
00:33
Minieep21
ATH in USD was around $1k
00:34
Crypto was going through another dump then so BTC/ETH pair ath is not concrete
MF
00:40
Mr Flintstone
back in the day veo traded basically only in USD
00:40
I think like 0.1-0.13 or so was ATH
Deleted invited Deleted Account
J
00:46
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
In reply to this message
Yea i know that
00:46
I was there 😊
00:47
In reply to this message
Highest I saw in discord was ~850
T
00:49
Tromp
Damn
S
00:52
Sebsebzen
Whats now in USD, i've been out of the loop
00:52
and before we get scolded to discuss this on discord :)
J
01:06
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
In reply to this message
150-200$
S
01:15
Sebsebzen
not to bad
01:21
Deleted Account
mainly the exchange coin was ETH in discord. Best prices was ~0.8 eth ... so the price for veo is better now ... dont think in usd :)
Le Anh tuan invited Le Anh tuan
01:22
Deleted Account
so if you kept the eth u are now in a worse situation then with veo
Pete | Tankwars.zone | Fiberblock.io invited Pete | Tankwars.zone | Fiberblock.io
P
06:25
Pete | Tankwars.zone | Fiberblock.io
How to mine??
06:28
What gpu specs on this ?
P
06:31
Pete | Tankwars.zone | Fiberblock.io
How do i see specs of the coin ??
M⛏
06:35
Moe ⛏
https://veoscan.io/
DV
06:36
Denis Voskvitsov
https://amoveo.pro/en/mining/ :)
A
06:45
Aries
this is great
Deleted invited Deleted Account
H
09:36
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
Bro Zack you have plans listing veo on binance or bittrex?
G
09:59
Gregory
And coinbase please))$
11:03
Deleted Account
Does anyone know the backtesting mechanism of the fmz quant platform?
11:06
Deleted Account
zack plz veo etf
Oke Pearson invited Oke Pearson
18:33
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
where can i see how futarchy works in the future
18:33
in amoveo
AK
18:34
A K
you mean in principle or whether there are any open govt oracles?
18:37
Deleted Account
i mean in the future when futarchy is being used, where can i see it
p
19:09
private_pr0perty
Hello, where I can to check balance, if I have only private key. Is it possible?
Z
20:05
Zack
In reply to this message
Use the private key to generate your public key. Then use the public key to look up your balance.
p
20:06
private_pr0perty
Thanks. Could you share a link for doing this?
Z
20:07
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/tree/master/docs/design
There are a couple documents called futarchy in the design folder in the docs.
20:07
In reply to this message
Depends if you have a full node formated private key, or if it is light node formatted.
007 007 invited 007 007
2 December 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
06:51
Zack
Does anyone use the oracle_bets endpoint on the external api?
It seems like a security vulnerability, and it is so poorly named, I really want to get rid of it, or at least rename it.
06:56
The tree-fix hard update is pretty big.
I think the cleanest way to do this is to have everyone stop using the oracles for a period of time.
We give people some time to close any leftover orders in the oracles.
The update deletes the old merkel trees of orders entirely, and we start fresh.

This way we can focus on optimizing the sync speed.
07:19
Deleted Account
Is there a particular type of user that benefits most from optimizations in the sync speed?
Z
07:20
Zack
more decentralized == cheaper to run a full node.

Sharding is an important goal for anyone holding VEO tokens, we don't want unnecessary complications to slow this goal down.
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Deleted invited Deleted Account
N
19:15
NM$L
welcome
AK
19:30
A K
In reply to this message
That will kill the CMC oracle?
Z
19:31
Zack
We could plan the hard update for after new years
19:31
It's only a month away.
And the software isn't written yet
AK
19:33
A K
If the oracle resolves to True, we will have at least two new exchanges , so it'll be necessary to coordinate with them, too
Z
19:38
Zack
Everyone running full nodes will get a big warning before the update. Just like the dozen or so hard updates we have done so far.
SS
23:46
Spike Spiegel
What's the current consensus on total supply?
23:46
or 2050 supply
M
23:52
Moon
In reply to this message
Not sure if that is still the current thinking
3 December 2018
SS
00:39
Spike Spiegel
"It seems to me that you would only participate in a gambling game if the expected returns were positive."

http://r6.ca/blog/20070816T193609Z.html
00:39
One can get bankrupt flipping a coin biased in his favour
Z
00:43
Zack
In reply to this message
Very cool link. This math looks so useful.
Z
03:11
Zack
In reply to this message
The problem is that they only solved for the case where one asset is perfectly safe, and they other is risky.
Many cryptocurrency enthusiasts think that fiat currency has significant risk of hyperinflation.
It would be cool if there was a javascript tool where you could plug in your expectations of the risk profiles of different assets, and it would calculate the optimal hedged portfolio based on your beliefs.
03:13
I got the single node tests passing on the hard update branch, so hopefully it will be ready soon.
Another benefit of this hard update is that it will be much easier for the light node to read merkel proofs of information from the oracle, because oracle bets will be in the same format as all the other merkel proofs. we can reuse existing libraries.
OK
03:27
O K
When real testnet
Z
03:27
Zack
ive got to get the integration tests passing first
MF
03:27
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
not sure it is easy to measure consensus about that. all we have is the block reward/block time to modify, not like we are using futarchy to define a halving schedule
03:28
In reply to this message
maybe we should use PoA for this if we have it
03:29
seems cleaner than dealing with mining and diff
Z
03:41
Zack
how about an upper limit on block difficulty.
So you if you use a gpu, you get hundreds of blocks a minute.
03:42
it looks like integration tests are passing
OK
03:48
O K
I think keeping as close to the main net is the spirit of testnets
03:48
Minus the changes trying to be made
Z
03:49
Zack
Amoveo is a lot more adaptive than most blockchains. Life finds a way.
03:49
It could mutate and escape our control
OK
03:50
O K
This doesn't happen lol
SS
03:52
Spike Spiegel
Is it only coin with governance for supply?
OK
03:52
O K
Just make the testnet dev reward 1000x the block reward and give some random admins addresses too
03:52
Then we can hyperinflate at will
03:53
And also give away some for people to play with channels
Z
03:53
Zack
We should call the testnet "Jurassic Park" to remind us of the risk
OK
03:53
O K
People like playing on testnets, see ethereums
Z
03:53
Zack
In reply to this message
Amoveo uses futarchy governance for many things besides the block reward and block time
03:54
the dev reward is controlled by governance
OK
03:54
O K via @gif
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Z
03:54
Zack
adding some hyperinflation that is outside the control of governance sounds like a good strategy for neutering the dinosaurs.
SS
04:00
Spike Spiegel
But nobody is using the governance variables for anything else / futarchy markets aren't popular compared to directly investing in VEO as just coin
Z
04:00
Zack
We used futarchy to make some decisions about hard updates and governance updates.
04:01
Futarchy isn't a big deal the way an election is.
Only a small handful of insiders actually participate in the futarchy or even talk about it.
04:01
If futarchy is effective, then good decisions will be made for Amoveo
T
04:02
Tromp
How do you plan for the amount of users vs the amount of speculators in a futarchy system? Simply the people that dont pay dont care?
Z
04:03
Zack
In reply to this message
If you speculate in futarchy, either you guess right and it doesn't matter, or you guess wrong, in which case your bet is a prize for someone else to come and report the truth.

Robin Hanson wrote a paper about how people betting wrong increases the accuracy of prediction markets.
04:04
I am expecting most recreational gamblers to participate in the user friendly smart contracts on top of the lightning network.

I expect almost no one to make oracle transactions on the blockchain.
T
04:05
Tromp
Can a miner with a lot of money come in at these prices and vote for the block reward to increase by x percent messing with the holders?
Z
04:06
Zack
In reply to this message
An attempt to manipulate the result of a prediction market like this is the same as throwing money away. You can't influence the outcome.
04:06
Bad bets are a prize for others to take from you by making good bets.
T
04:07
Tromp
Ok thanks 🍺
04:08
By the way, does anyone know why the hashrate keeps increasing so much?
04:08
Some chinese miner or something?
Z
04:09
Zack
The price of other blockchains has gone down lately, it makes Amoveo more profitable to mine relatively.
04:10
the hashrate was 50% higher a couple weeks ago
SS
04:10
Spike Spiegel
I thought that "non-speculative" value of veo should reflect amount locked in markets / channels
Z
04:12
Zack
In reply to this message
"speculative" often means that people are gambling recreationally. I don't know what you are saying
SS
04:21
Spike Spiegel
That people are buying due to expectation of price increase & possible supply reduction and not that organic usage of markets would force higher price
Z
04:22
Zack
right, people use "speculative" to describe that sort of an investment
04:22
but I think in this case, Tromp was asking about people who gamble in a futarchy market without knowing anything about which decision is better.
04:24
It is a little complicated, because VEO is something you can invest in, and it allows for all these other contracts that you can invest in.
So we use similar language to describe VEO and to describe the different smart contracts.
SS
04:36
Spike Spiegel
Right now price = supply & demand play. Meanwhile Ethereum is "backed" by ERC20 tokens, since they need ETH for liquidity and apparently ETH marketcap > sum of erc20 marketcap
04:36
Marketcap of veo needs to be higher than the dollar sum locked inside - IHMO getting more people to use it that way would yield higher returns than anything else
OK
04:36
O K
I'd rather be backed by supply and demand than backed by shitcoins, if that's what you're saying
Z
04:38
Zack
Erc20s could sum to something bigger than eth. Why not?
04:39
All amoveo contracts are priced in Veo.
T
04:42
Tromp
Have you though of a way of valuing Amoveo from a fundamental perspective in usd terms? Must be extremely hard in this stage i guess
Z
04:45
Zack
we made a contract for difference CFD smart contract.
So now you can make synthetic USD on Amoveo.
T
04:49
Tromp
I mean in terms of market cap hahaha i read the other day that you wish to surpass augurs market cap
Z
05:06
Zack
I want to build the new world reserve currency.
Financial derivatives are the most popular application of currency.
G
05:11
Gregory
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
💫, 46.9 KB
M
10:41
Mike
In reply to this message
:)
10:42
Props to whoever structured the sell book, assuming that 20 different people aren’t floating sell orders 20-50% above market price
OK
10:59
O K
People have been market buying
H
11:23
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
Guys i think its better to use qt wallet for veo
B
14:20
Ben
then start adopting it
14:20
have fun
S
14:32
Sy
In reply to this message
Is that really the case?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
SS
17:42
Spike Spiegel
erc20 ICO's created massive demand for ETH itself
E
17:48
Eloi
no ICO no Eth
17:48
infinite Eth being sold, dep eth
17:50
just imagine for a second the amount of Eth dropped in icos, most of them scam icos
18:23
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
good link, thanks. And if you draw the line along x axis further towards 100, you will find that after 100, your growth rate is more than 40%, which means you need to invest all your money each round...someone please correct if i am wrong.
18:26
[
18:30
[Riki]
In reply to this message
isn't your expected loss maximized if you bet 100% every round? after infinite rounds, your chance of surviving is 0?
18:32
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
i believe you are right. just want to know what the positive return means after 100, does that mean you need to borrow?
[
18:40
[Riki]
In reply to this message
if you can borrow additional funds each time after an unsuccessful round, then it would make sense that you bet 100% each round since you can never lose (you can always borrow again and again). in other words you dont have a financial leverage limit. i dont know how to interpret the "40%" growth rate in that context. how does the profit distribution look like, is it normal?
18:50
Deleted Account
not sure, that is out of my knowledge.
4 December 2018
SS
04:04
Spike Spiegel
Instead of buying $1000 worth of S&P500 you can borrow $2000 for $1000 to buy $2000 worth of shares = so your upside and downside risk is 2x (and you need to pay interest + risk liquidation)
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Tv
05:34
Tarrence van As
Hi Zack, in the orders record, there is a member pointer. What does it point to?
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/8d21fde027dea09ac851022f5ed93c644f3ef909/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/trees/orders.erl#L20
05:35
I’m trying to understand how to find who an order in an oracles order book belongs to
Z
05:42
Zack
It's a linked list. It points to the next order.
Tv
05:53
Tarrence van As
Ok, so it should correspond to the next orders aid?
05:56
When querying some orders for an oracle I’m getting data that looks like this:
{
  "amount": "14702787",
  "id": "BMjV7rAAssU+DGd8w+6XsyDSdgoichddlSipZT3U+jehHSD68UwPdF9TO3HQ0g4hCh2rgUQyqPnP7vP0i/l8Ijw=",
  "pointer": "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=",
  "root_hash": "fj8c2jiAO9WT9kAhdZ0bAWF4xQI4BQrsPw1BKQDq0OQ="
},
{
  "amount": "5260629159936",
  "id": "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAE=",
  "pointer": "ssU+DGd8w+6XsyDSdgoichddlSipZT3U+jehHSD68UwPdF9TO3HQ0g4hCh2rgUQyqPnP7vP0i/l8IjwAAAAAAAA=",
  "root_hash": "fj8c2jiAO9WT9kAhdZ0bAWF4xQI4BQrsPw1BKQDq0OQ="
}

Where the pointer doesn’t match the next orders id perfectly, but a large substring does. For example in the case above, ssU+DGd8w+6XsyDSdgoichddlSipZT3U+jehHSD68UwPdF9TO3HQ0g4hCh2rgUQyqPnP7vP0i/l8Ijw matches. I wonder what I am doing incorrectly
05:57
This is for oracle tgGxIve5FdNsAB0t4diP5p3cJjeax05KpWX7ltfJjyI=
Andrey invited Andrey
Z
08:52
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes
08:54
Maybe the order is not being decoded correctly.
Z
12:34
Zack
The bunch of AAAA at the end is zero bytes. So it isn't decoding correctly.
Tv
12:36
Tarrence van As
Thanks. I’m debugging the deserialization function now but haven’t been able to figure it out yet.
12:37
I get this
12:37 
Input Data: <<"BE/xUgDuGzJMqZl6xZpP74v+z5ACl6I5Radeh3Jyn0BJeWUWGtgtEuODCE1/iojRUvgGxho3kqkMFjLZimM10lMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQ==">>

Amount: 4741397610734
AID: <<"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAE=">>
P: <<"GzJMqZl6xZpP74v+z5ACl6I5Radeh3Jyn0BJeWUWGtgtEuODCE1/iojRUvgGxho3kqkMFjLZimM10lMAAAAAAAA=">>
Z
12:37
Zack
great.
I am guessing you are using some javascript library to decode?
Tv
12:38
Tarrence van As
No, I’m using the erlang client
Z
12:38
Zack
what command are you using to decode the order?
Tv
12:38
Tarrence van As
I’m calling it internally
12:38
orders:get
Z
12:38
Zack
orders:deserialize/1 ??
Tv
12:39
Tarrence van As
orders:get/2
12:40
In theory this should exhibit the same issue but I haven’t tested yet
Z
12:41
Zack
I notice that it is 65 bytes with the AAAA at the end
12:42
oh, this is the head of the list.
12:42
I made the head of the linked list a little different. It stores some meta data about the entire list, like how long it is.
12:43
that is why it says such a big number for Amount. that isn't an amount of veo, that is just decoding junk binary as if it was an amount.
Tv
12:47
Tarrence van As
Gotcha, so the deserialization function needs to be updated?
Z
12:48
Zack
no.
12:48
there is this other function already to deserialize order-headers.
Chris 🍞 invited Chris 🍞
C
18:02
Chris 🍞
g'day =)
18:04
What a mess at AE, think i'm going back to Amoveo mining
M
19:06
Minieep21
Hello
19:07
What's going on with them?
C
19:07
Chris 🍞
poor mining tools from dev team, since launch someone with private software been mining 90%+ of all blocks
AK
19:09
A K
100% expected lol
19:10
But it's capitalism
19:10
Anyone had like a year to develop custom mining software
S
19:10
Sy
whats their algo? cuckoo cycle?
AK
19:11
A K
Yep
S
19:11
Sy
isnt that used in other coins before? thats always dangerous because there might be an asic already in the making and they sweep by your coin as a side effect
AK
19:11
A K
i’m not sure
19:11
it will be used in Grin
19:12
but AE might be the first one to market actually
19:12
and the algo is supposed to be ASIC resistant *cough* *cough*
19:14
cant find which coins are using it tho but as someone explained earlier, there is nothing you cant build an asic for, an asic is just specialised for one task, doesnt matter what task it is - usually asics have not that much memory but thats just one parameter you have to change and its working again as prooven by bitmain
19:15
this one
AK
19:17
A K
all true
S
19:21
Sy
so zacks approach is a good one, choose an asic friendly algo because its going to happen either way, this way more ppl can get a shot at it vs a complex algo but dont take an existing one
AK
21:02
A K
absolutely
21:03
how to make sense of it? :-/
21:03
G
21:05
Gregory
софт конечно очень сырой
21:59
Deleted Account
www.trustory.io
21:59
this
21:59
seems similar to predition market
22:00
but are used to verify truth
Alex invited Alex
SS
22:33
Spike Spiegel
TBH trustory seems like another Theranos
Z
22:41
Zack
In reply to this message
I think it is because of the delete-account txs that this person used.
They received money from the other accounts that got deleted.
AK
22:42
A K
is there a way to fix it somehow?
22:42
so that explorer shows correctly
DV
22:43
Denis Voskvitsov
AFAIR veoscan did smth to handle these tx's (they're special because tx amount isn't stored in blockchain)
AK
22:43
A K
i assume it's just the explorer bug(?) and that the node "knows" the correct balance
Z
22:43
Zack
In reply to this message
Haha
Looks like someone is trying to sell prediction market oracles, but they don't understand how a prediction market works.
22:44
In reply to this message
Yes
SS
22:48
S S
In reply to this message
Isn't that similar to the lie detector you were talking about?
Z
22:51
Zack
In reply to this message
The amoveo lie detector is for assessing the accuracy of people's promises about the future. It uses a combinatorial prediction market.

Truthy looks like it is for knowing facts about the world as it exists now.
SS
23:03
S S
In reply to this message
Well even if I'm able to detect if the news published last week was true/false, it can be useful for assessing reputation of the publisher, no?
Z
23:06
Zack
In reply to this message
A prediction market allows us to bet on anything that will eventually become common knowledge.
We can bet on a sporting event, because after the event ends it is easy for us all to know who won, so it is easy to report the result to the blockchain.

But if something is not common knowledge, then we could not bet on it.
If the community can't easily agree on the outcome, then they would not know what to report to the Oracle.
23:08
A prediction market can be used to know if someone is lying when they make a promise about doing something public in the future.

A prediction market can't be used to know the accuracy of a person's story about the past.
SS
23:18
S S
Doesn't a story's validity eventually become evident as more facts open up. I agree the timeline is not well defined but at some point of time you're going to Know whether it was factually right or wrong, I think or maybe my understanding of prediction market is wrong.
Z
23:20
Zack
I just flipped a coin.
I tell you it landed heads.
I could be lying.
How long until you can tell me if I was lying or honest about the coin flip?

It doesn't matter how long you wait, you will never know the result of the coin flip.
23:22
Oracles can't be used for secret coin flips by anonymous people online.
Oracles can only be used to record information that is common knowledge. Information that is cheap for anyone to look up.
SS
23:23
S S
Just to understand better, what would an oracle for amoveo lie detector have?
Z
23:26
Zack
For example, Bob is running for president.
He promises that if he gets elected, the price of beans will go down by at least 50%.

So we would make 2 oracles. One asks if Bob gets elected.
The other asks if the price of beans fell by at least 50%.

Then we make a market to ask about the correlation of these variables.

If they are correlated, that means Bob's promise is honest. If he is elected, the price of beans will probably go down at least 50%.

If they are uncorrilated, then Bob is a liar.
N
23:28
NM$L
A guy found ae is 51 attacked
SS
23:29
S S
In reply to this message
Ah, got it. Thanks man.
Z
23:30
Zack
Ico is so difficult.
All 100% of coins are at risk on day one.

In amoveo, we had very few tokens at risk on day 1, because they hadn't been mined yet.
AK
23:30
A K
In reply to this message
source?
OK
23:30
O K
In reply to this message
Vulnerable and attacked are two different things
AK
23:30
A K
afaik nobody uses mainnet tokens yet, no exchanges accept them, so what's the point of the attack?
N
23:31
NM$L
hh
harold harold 04.12.2018 23:25:16
you can update block explorer every 3 second
23:31
Wait new block come out
23:31
Other wise ae is not using mesh network
23:31
Its several mintes ago when it updared
23:31
So its been attacked
23:31
Not like btc
N
23:31
NM$L
n
nassim|DefiPulse 04.12.2018 23:29:59
I can see last blocks are by different miners.
23:31
Why should a 51% attacker give blocks to someone else
OK
23:32
O K
Orphaned blocks?
23:33
If they have enough hash rate, and depending on how well their network syncs, it may not even be deliberate
23:33
Have there been double spends?
Z
23:33
Zack
They have a block Explorer?
AK
23:33
A K
😂
5 December 2018
Adel invited Adel
A
01:28
Adel
is amoveo an ERC20 token?
Z
01:28
Zack
In reply to this message
No.
On March 2 2018 we launched main net starting with zero tokens
Evgeny Vlasov invited Evgeny Vlasov
OK
03:19
O K
Welcome back @sahivi
Z
04:23
Zack
I am planning out making a testnet to try out the new hard update before we do it on mainnet.
P
04:26
Prizrak
In reply to this message
what's new?
Z
04:26
Zack
I was thinking of forking at a recent height, so we all have the same balances. but I am a little concerned about transactions being replayed on both sides.

Even if I build great software to prevent txs from being replayed, I am worried that the user interfaces wont be clear enough.
For example, you could use any light node to make a valid signature, so generating the signature from a testnet light node isn't a guarantee that it can't be broadcast on main net.
04:40
This update replaces a lot of code with other much shorter code.
So now something like 10% of Amoveo's code is dead. It is only used for verifying historical blocks.

I am hoping to find a way to add a checkpoint, so that we can stop doing some aspects of verification for these old blocks.
That would make syncing faster, and allow us to delete a bunch of confusing unused code.
Артём invited Артём
Z
04:51
Zack
maybe I should just append every dead line with the comment symbol, and add a line to the documentation explaining how to tell when code is dead.
Z
05:44
Zack
I think there is a daily pattern in the VEO price.
I guess some time zones are mostly selling, and others are mostly buying.
SS
05:48
Spike Spiegel
05:48
I see cup and handle and liftoff
Z
05:49
Zack
Veo is doing pretty well considering how this is a bear market.
It seems like we aren't very correlated to other cryptocurrencies, so that means VEO is probably a good hedge for most cryptocurrency investors.
OK
05:50
O K
I think it's being made into that hedge
SS
05:51
Spike Spiegel
It has 1.8 beta - one should short BTC and long veo for hedge
05:52
Z
05:53
Zack
I think a reason that cryptocurrencies are so correlated is that a lot of projects have a lot of cryptocurrency from their ICO. So a large fraction of the value of an altcoin is in the bitcoin/eth reserves of the business who did the ico.

Amoveo doesn't have any crypto reserves.
05:53
In reply to this message
why do you think it is 1.8?
OK
05:54
O K
In reply to this message
This is less simple than just the fact they are priced in BTC/ETH on exchanges
MF
05:56
Mr Flintstone
doesn’t coinpaprika do the beta calc?
05:57
I would take beta calcs with a large grain of salt driven by the fact that there can be meaningful dislocations in the volatility of veo vs bitcoin
05:57
plus, are they doing beta of veousd vs btcusd or veobtc vs btcusd
05:59
In reply to this message
beta of veo vs bitcoin = correlation of veo to bitcoin * volatility of veo / volatility of bitcoin
SS
06:13
Spike Spiegel
Amoveo is moving in the same direction as market - mostly - but with 1.8 movement = if you hold bitcoin already you cannot hedge buy buying veo, you need to short bitcoin to get market neutral exposure
06:13
Say I bought some veo when bitcoin was 6400 and now it's ATH in both BTC and ETH but I'm underwater on dollar terms
OK
06:14
O K
In reply to this message
I'd be happy with that
Z
06:20
Zack
you would get a different beta depending on what part of the history you measured.
Things change fast in the cryptocurrency world.
SS
06:23
Spike Spiegel
you need some recent correlation for that - option pricing and general trading is very interesting - seems like Amoveo would benefit from having somebody experienced in futures markets to write quality explainers & how_to guides
06:24
One thing is technical feasibility of implementing something, another is getting people to understand and use it
MF
06:28
Mr Flintstone
you can use baskets of options to create what are effectively correlation swaps: long an option on a 50/50 veo/btc portfolio and sell options on standalone btc and standalone veo portfolios
Z
06:28
Zack
or we could use the power of amoveo oracles to ask exactly that question
MF
06:29
Mr Flintstone
that too :)
06:29
much simpler
SS
06:29
Spike Spiegel
Would portfolio X outperform beta?
xD
Z
06:30
Zack
that is a powerful abstraction.

I think in practice these super specific questions wont be so useful.
The benefit of a basket of options is that hopefully each option in the basket is useful to other people who make different baskets.
You get more liquidity with more participants.
MF
06:33
Mr Flintstone
I wonder if we can blend our scalar markets and the XNOR oracle question we use in futarchy to create a correlation market
Z
07:32
Zack
What is the current state of mining hardware research?
Is it better to have computation be the bottleneck, or memory accesses?

I feel like memory is more reusable. It would be easy to make efficient hardware that could be used on many different memory hard pow algorithms.
Maybe they can specialize in the size of memory they read in one go, or the total amount of memory that needs to be available while mining.

I wonder if computation is getting cheaper faster, or if memory is getting cheaper faster.
08:06
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
trustory verify truth from past , predition market predict future. i think they said that in their forum
Z
08:07
Zack
Are they like, archeologists?
08:08
Deleted Account
im not sure whether it's a blockchain projects tho , i just found the site yesterday
OK
08:08
O K
In reply to this message
😂
Deleted invited Deleted Account
SS
08:53
Spike Spiegel
I would argue against memory bound algo because it may create unfavourable ripple effects: ETH made gaming cards more expensive due to increased demand - supply was constrained so price skyrocketed
Z
08:54
Zack
I wonder if there are any favorable side effects.
Maybe all the intense research into mining hardware will lead to the discovery of better ways to do computation.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Aqua Chiang invited Aqua Chiang
SS
18:26
Spike Spiegel
Electricity network shedding & frequency mgmt
18:27
You can put some % of output from electric plant to miners, and turn them off immediately if you need more power - so your plant will always work at 100% capacity generating more stable revenue
AK
18:28
A K
yeah, but miners might be disappointed with idle periods, kills the ROI
18:29
only work in times like now if the regular kWh price makes mining a loss
18:29
or maybe current times are the new norm )
19:48
Deleted Account
Been there done that. Mining investment costs are so high that if you dont mine 24/7 you will not profit. Add to this the very large risk of mining profitability in the future
19:49
If one day mining hardware that is cheap in purchase and competitive power wise comes to existence, it will be a boost for renewable energy. So we can hope that happens
19:49
Reason: renewable will have a market for energy when there is no grid need
19:50
My favorite product if this happens is to make an electric heater that mines for crypto
AK
19:50
A K
In reply to this message
cominopool.com does it lol
19:52
Deleted Account
That would mean that they are only part time profitable? Not exactly a good model for future investments in mining hardware I would think
AK
19:53
A K
dunno the business model, but I saw that exact business pitch somewhere
19:53
mine+heat
P
19:55
Prizrak
cominopool.com uses FPGA for the mining of this coin. FPGA is much more economical in terms of consumption of electricity.
19:55
K
19:56
KELDISH
Check also:
https://grando.ai/en/
AK
19:56
A K
In reply to this message
what's that?
P
19:56
Prizrak
In reply to this message
FPGA
AK
19:56
A K
where?
P
19:57
Prizrak
In reply to this message
https://comino.com/shop look here
19:58
https://comino.com/shop look here
19:58
Deleted Account
Wow... is this really an amoveo fpga? What you get exactly? Remote License?
Vitaly Fralenko invited Vitaly Fralenko
Z
20:00
Zack
It seems like the FPGA they use runs encrypted software.
So you pay them $100, and they send you software to make your FPGA mine for Amoveo.
You can't re-use the mining software on other FPGA, because it needs to be custom encrypted for each board.
20:00
I am excited for the first person to buy one of these boards to tell us how well they work
P
20:01
Prizrak
And at the same time, all FPGA clients mined a VEO in their pool - cominopool
Z
20:03
Zack
so if you use their FPGA, you can only join cominopool?
That sounds like a bad thing.
If FPGA can only join their pool, then they will have >50% hashrate soon.
We need to program an open source bitstream for FPGA, that way you can use FPGA with any mining pool.
Maybe we can use a dominant assurance contract for this.
20:06
Deleted Account
That would be bad.
Z
20:06
Zack
Well, we don't really know anything until someone buys their bitstream and gives us a review of how it works
20:07
Deleted Account
The interesting thing here would be the numbers for hashrate vs power. It could trigger others to make the FPGA software
Z
20:07
Zack
yes
P
20:08
Prizrak
In reply to this message
Why no one can mine on cominopool? address cominopool.com redirects to https://comino.com/en/
It turns out that the largest pool in the network is private?
Z
20:12
Zack
I think cominopool is currently private, they are testing out fpgas and getting ready to sell their bitstream
P
20:15
Prizrak
In reply to this message
And at the same time, they use it to advertise their services and products.
SS
20:21
Spike Spiegel
What about fundraising for a software to run single SHA256 on commodity hardware?
Z
20:21
Zack
we have that already. There are CPU and GPU open source miners.
20:31
I am talking to Evgeny Vlasov of Comino.
He says:
"there are many FPGA chips and for each specific model it should be createed specific bitstream
we created two bitstream for VEO
for Stratix 10 (Altera Intell)
for CV13P Xilinks Ultrascale +

we are selling right now bitsstream from CVP13

CVP13 - model of board (cv13p is FPGA chip)

CVP13 is the most powerful solution on the market coming from Bittware near month

we as a legal company are supplier of Bittware and manufacturing liquid cooling systems (complite solution with fpga, liquid cooling, soft etc )

FPGA board consumes 380W and can be run only with liquid cooling

with air flow I guess it can be ~200 with no problems

we are selling bitstream separately as well with fix price 99 EUR per one Board with no fee

Any advices or comments or other chips FGPA - very velcome well We are open for any Idea you have to help Amoveo.

I can create video in Youtube as well to show how does it work"
Mr.Bogus invited Mr.Bogus
Mr.Bogus invited Alexey Chistov
SS
20:37
Spike Spiegel
What will happen if they would own 51%
20:38
Monero changed algo at least once AFAIK - I'm not sure if single SHA256 is secure at all
AK
20:38
A K
wait
20:38
Monero changed because if ASICs
20:39
Amoveo welcomes ASICs, so no need to change at all
SS
20:41
Spike Spiegel
Even if they mine 51% ?
Z
20:41
Zack
Sounds like you can use comino pool bitstream to mine for any mining pool
AK
20:43
A K
yeah that would be like shooting themselves in the leg. i think the only reason to host one own's pool is to save on pool fees
Raccoonov invited Raccoonov
T
20:52
Tromp
It would be great if you did some youtube videos explaining how amoveo works and its future developments 🍺 Zack
SS
20:54
Spike Spiegel
FPGA != ASIC
R
20:54
Raccoonov
FPGA is much more flexible than ASIC
20:55
FPGA is adaptable to changes, and ASIC is not
AK
20:57
A K
In reply to this message
i don't get it, you suggest amoveo forks to battle FPGAs? Why?
R
20:57
Raccoonov
That’s why noone sees FPGAs sellouts such as of ASICs, as one just can adapt FPGAs and continue running them
Coinman ศิษย์ปลาวาฬ invited Coinman ศิษย์ปลาวาฬ
H
21:01
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
Difficulty mooning 😭
Z
21:03
Zack
difficulty was higher a couple weeks ago
SS
22:00
Spike Spiegel
Great thread on asic https://twitter.com/matt_odell/status/1067521422883475456
AK
22:19
A K
all true, I'm very happy Amoveo and Zack shared it all from the very beginning
Z
22:25
Zack
It looks like Amoveo's original design was lucky. Back in March almost everyone thought ASIC-resistance was best, since then the average beliefs of the blockchain community seems to have shifted a lot.
M⛏
22:33
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
Also comino isn't the only bitstream available for VEO.. there are others
Z
22:35
Zack
if someone is selling a bitstream, they should tell us so I can write about it on twitter and they will get more customers
S
22:57
Shaun
I feel like now it's more believed that ASICS are an indispensible part of security in blockchains
22:58
A lot of people ranted about it after the Vertcoin attack
22:58
including Emin Gün Sirer
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
23:26
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
idk if I would call it luck haha
S
23:42
Sy
the downside of asics is that sooner or later someone builds a private one and concentrates hashrate
23:42
i mean face it, you only sell your asic if you think you make more (or enough?) money this way than just using them yourself
AK
23:44
Alex K
In reply to this message
you sell it because you can make instant profit instead of taking crypto volaitility risk
OK
23:45
O K
And asic companies are evolving and there is more competition than ever
23:46
With a coin like veo, an asic dev would be better off being at least somewhat open about development
23:46
They wouldn't want us changing algos
23:47
And especially since we are pro-asic, it would be safer to be upfront
MF
23:47
Mr Flintstone
right
23:47
if someone doesn’t want to sell the community ASICs we can always change the algo as leverage
23:48
but I don’t really see a situation where someone puts millions into making veo ASICS so as to attack the network
23:48
would be a waste of money
Z
23:48
Zack
Asics are expensive, but as cryptocurrencies get bigger, and more money gets involved, it makes asics less expensive relatively.
In the limiting case, there are massive companies competing to produce asics with razor thin profit margins.
They maximize profits by immediately selling hardware, so they have more cash on hand to produce more hardware.
Mining recovers their investment too slowly, and it comes with significant risks.
6 December 2018
Z
00:21
Zack
I think the difference between miners and asics manufacturers is similar to the difference between coin investors and and miners.

In the beginning all the big coin holders are also miners, but as the project grows, vertical integrations starts being less efficient. people specialize and optimize.

Similarly, in the beginning all the big asics miners will also be manufacturers, but as the project grows, vertical integrations will start being less efficient. people will specialize and optimize.
I
01:31
Iridescence
In reply to this message
funny, because the vertcoin team specifically blames ASICS for the recent ongoing 51% attacks
S
01:32
Shaun
I doubt you'd need an ASIC to attack Vertcoin
I
01:32
Iridescence
true
J
01:32
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
almost 0.1 btc per veo on qtrade 😊 gg
I
01:33
Iridescence
wow
AK
01:33
A K
someone liked the FPGA news
I
01:34
Iridescence
I guess FPGa development lends more credibility to VEO?
AK
01:34
A K
doesn't hurt! shows someone with resources is willing to spend time and money
Deleted invited Deleted Account
I
01:35
Iridescence
also BTC dumping again
OK
02:26
O K
When should we raise the block reward?
Я
02:27
Ярослав
In reply to this message
After Lamba ))
MF
02:31
Mr Flintstone
good luck raising it lol. can’t imagine that will be popular
OK
02:36
O K
In reply to this message
The precedent has been set, the block reward is flexible
ILYA VELLER invited ILYA VELLER
M⛏
03:03
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
not if you're a dictator trying to take down the next world reserve currency 😜
V
03:39
Vampyr
I was right
Rustam invited Rustam
Z
03:45
Zack
In reply to this message
It seems like 2 things we could optimize for are Veo price and market cap.
I figure we should make a futarchy market that optimizes for a linear combination of those 2 values.

I wonder what ratio would be best.
AK
03:46
A K
market cap is all that matters
Z
03:46
Zack
yes maybe 100% market cap is better to optimize for.
M⛏
03:46
Moe ⛏
whats the current inflation rate?
Z
03:47
Zack
In reply to this message
If the price is increasing, is that considered deflation?
03:47
I think it is about 1 Veo per block
MF
03:47
Mr Flintstone
closer to 0.75
03:47
well, about equal to 0.75 lol
OK
03:48
O K
In reply to this message
By schools of thought who enjoy conflating terms
MF
03:48
Mr Flintstone
0.2% inflation per day
AK
03:49
A K
03:49
EMH rekt. down the drain. rejected.
03:49
someone can write a nobel thesis on that ))
MF
03:50
Mr Flintstone
lol, there aren’t any arb opps cuz u have to take liquidity
03:50
highest bid on qtrade is low
M⛏
03:51
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
73% annual
Z
03:51
Zack
It's less than a year old. So wouldn't it be >100% annual?
MF
03:51
Mr Flintstone
you would expect a pow chain with unchanged block reward to have inflation of 100% from end of year 1 to end of year 2
AK
03:52
A K
36500 veo per year currently vs 50K+ supply
Z
03:52
Zack
Oh right, we lowered it like 30 %
MF
03:52
Mr Flintstone
we lowered the block reward
03:52
and lots of veo was mined early when diff was low
Z
03:53
Zack
I wonder what the average block time was. I think the slow and fast times most canceled out
MF
03:54
Mr Flintstone
plus our blocks are 11 minutes, so about 10% less inflation than you think
03:55
In reply to this message
true, though I think I remember it still being very quick to like block 30k(faster than a half year?)
AK
03:56
A K
past inflation is not indicative of future inflation )
Tv
09:29
Tarrence van As
The oracles datastructure has a result field that seems to be set to either 0, 1, 2, or 3. What do those values correspond to?
Z
10:37
Zack
0 is still open. 1 is true. 2 is false. 3 is bad question.
10:37
I think
Tv
10:41
Tarrence van As
Should the type always be in sync with result if result is non-zero?
10:43
I’m seeing this being returned from the client
10:43 
{
        "__typename": "Oracle",
        "ends": 28394,
        "governance": "DEVELOPER_REWARD",
        "id": "firE+J0/yBeBKiZ96oy66r662rvOcP9TwXSxfHAGoSQ=",
        "result": "3",
        "type": "TRUE"
 }
Z
10:46
Zack
Type tells what kind of oracle bets are sitting in the Oracle order book.
Once the Oracle is closed, then the type does not matter.
10:47
If the total volume of bets in the Oracle is very small, then the outcome will be bad-question, regardless of the type of bets in the order book.
Tv
10:47
Tarrence van As
I see thank you
10:48
Another question, what does cs and ex stand for in the governance params?
10:48
Oh channel slash for cs
Z
10:49
Zack
I think thst those are fees for all the tx types. Ex is for a proof of existence tx.
Tv
10:52
Tarrence van As
Gotcha thanks
N
13:58
NM$L
when coinmarketcap
J
14:18
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
In reply to this message
Fuck them
14:19
Lately they list only trash projects
S
14:34
Sebsebzen
KuCoin could be Potential exchange
14:34
They list most custom blockchains
14:35
And if on KuCoin likely that will be on CMC via their api
N
14:35
NM$L
veo should list on a chinese exchange
D
14:35
Danil
In reply to this message
Veo could be listed on binance for free, like raven was listed
S
14:36
Sebsebzen
How?
14:36
Community vote?
AS
14:36
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
Wrong. They have their policy of listing. U can't be added without being listed on proper exchanges, at least 2
J
14:36
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
oh then my bad
AK
14:37
A K
In reply to this message
This or Overstock support helped )
D
14:41
Danil
In reply to this message
No, it was listed without fees. Because it had no ico, but had community and mainnet. But Zack should fill the application for the listing.
H
15:57
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
Nope
15:58
We had a legal documents from attorney
15:58
Saying raven is not security
15:58
Wr submit it to bittrex
15:59
Binance just list it for free
15:59
Actually raven did not pay anything on exchanges
S
16:00
Sebsebzen
Raven is ERC20? Easy to add to exchange
H
16:00
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
But before cryptopia and bittex. Raven had a community vote on binance but didnt win
16:00
Nope
16:00
X16r
16:02
After 3 mos listing on bittrex and then binance came before the mainnet
16:03
16:03
Sold at 1020 sats
16:03
😂
S
16:09
Sebsebzen
What’s x16r
N
17:07
NM$L
In reply to this message
what a pitty
M
17:09
Minieep21
Dayum, people are liking the FPGA news
N
17:11
NM$L
We are mooning
J
17:11
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
again?
G
17:12
GIM
Fuck been waiting the dip for ages
17:13
Never came
[
17:22
[Riki]
In reply to this message
algo allows to switch between 16 different algorithms each block randomly, making it very hard to design ASIC miners for it
S
17:27
Sebsebzen
Got it
AK
18:17
A K
In reply to this message
and who paid for the legal opinion, since there was no ICO?
18:17
was there a community fundraise, or Overstock guys did, or ?
18:17
we're clearly struggling here with funding VEO business dev, I wonder how Raven solved it
18:18
An opinion for Bittrex might cost 20K USD
H
18:18
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
In reply to this message
There is a attorney on the raven community. Hehe
AK
18:18
A K
pro bono? damn
18:18
but Bittrex won't accept just any attorney
18:18
still doesn't hurt to have )
18:19
any attorneys, pls raise their hands ))
H
18:19
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
They said top 20 attorney but we submitted the legal documents and they accept it
AK
18:19
A K
nice, good to know
H
18:20
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
He doesnt accept the paymnt
AK
18:20
A K
maybe VEO can copy paste Raven opinion :)
H
18:20
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
It is community project
18:20
Heheheheh
18:21
No premine no ico no dev hehe
18:21
Just community helping each other
H
20:34
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
Guys 280 valid shares equivalent to how many veo when filled?
Z
20:35
Zack
Depends on the pool
H
20:37
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
In reply to this message
On veopool bro
OK
21:45
O K
In reply to this message
:|
H
21:46
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
Hehe
Al invited Al
7 December 2018
SS
00:06
Spike Spiegel
My face when veo = 0.1 BTC
00:06
A
00:07
Aries
Hi Pablo
Z
00:09
Zack
Just don't release any hippos as an invasive species.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
00:22
Sy
In reply to this message
depends on the diff, block luck etc
00:22
better use the calc + hashrate
H
00:23
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
👍
Tv
05:27
Tarrence van As
What happens if someone creates an oracle that starts at a particular block and sometime before that the.networks block_period is modified? I guess it’s potentially not safe to create oracles that start far in the future?
MF
05:31
Mr Flintstone
good point. I suppose we can always delay start of oracle settlement process a lot out of conservatism - a cost of this would be time value for the traders in the market who want to get out of their position before the oracle settles
05:32
I guess the worry is that if we change the block period to be shorter, it will make some oracles “bad question” because the oracle betting has started while the event hasn’t resolved in real life
05:34
long term markets are less useful and more expensive than shorter term markets anyways
05:35
since you need to pay someone to lock up their capital for a longer period of time. typically curve of interest rate vs amount of time locked up is positive sloping
Tv
05:37
Tarrence van As
Hmm yeah. Could there also be a situation where someone has bet heavy on the losing side of an oracle and uses the block_period parameter as a mechanism to invalidate the oracle
MF
05:37
Mr Flintstone
they are creating a reward for us to claim if they try to manipulate block period
05:38
unless they can show that decreasing block period will increase the price of veo vs not doing it I guess?
Tv
05:39
Tarrence van As
Yeah their bets could be in a channel so it wouldn’t be apparent that there is a conflict of interest
05:39
And they could campaign for reducing block_period for other reasons
05:39
Just a hypothetical
MF
05:39
Mr Flintstone
yup, good points. oracle settlement risk is real and comes from various sources
05:39
I didn’t consider the risk coming from block period adjustment
05:40
I’m sure Zack has views on this situation too
Tv
05:40
Tarrence van As
Maybe it should be possible to set the start date of an oracle using wall time
MF
05:41
Mr Flintstone
timestamping is still an unsolved problem iirc. bitcoin doesn’t even have a solution really, they just assume 50% of the time stamps aren’t malicious
05:42
maybe I’m wrong
Tv
05:42
Tarrence van As
I think bitcoins timestamps are thesholded so each block needs to be within a range of the previous
05:42
And channel locks use the average time over the last 10 blocks or something
MF
05:43
Mr Flintstone
channel lock time in bitcoin isn’t block count?
Tv
05:43
Tarrence van As
It can be either
MF
05:43
Mr Flintstone
they actually use timestamps?
05:43
oh true I guess you can program whatever you want
MF
05:44
Mr Flintstone
timestamp reliance may result in some skewed short term incentives for miners is all
Tv
05:44
Tarrence van As
Yeah definitely there are always trade offs
05:48
Perhaps another solution could be if the block_period is modified then oracle start blocks are moved accordingly
MF
05:57
Mr Flintstone
nice and elegant
05:58
i assume zack as usual has some views that are orthogonal to ours to let’s see what he says
Z
06:05
Zack
Since we updated the retargetting, maybe now it is ok to use the block time in oracles and in chalang.
Tv
06:14
Tarrence van As
👍 I think that would make sense
A
07:33
Aries
It feels like April :)
Arong invited Arong
S
15:35
Sy
In reply to this message
👍
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Naid 🐾 e13 invited Naid 🐾 e13
8 December 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
01:14
Zack
If more blockchains used the Amoveo code base, it would help us improve the code.
AE full nodes seem to be coming along too slowly.
I wonder if we could make a fork of Amoveo's code such that anyone could lock up their AE tokens on AE's blockchain to receive tokens on the Amoveo clone.

Then they could all abandon ship and have value on a blockchain that actually does what they want.
AK
01:30
A K
Over 3000 full nodes in AE afair
01:43
Deleted Account
Hi to all
01:43
Any one submitted amoveo listing request in Instant Bitex exchange
01:44
We have replied to the request mail please check and get back to us
Marko invited Marko
Tv
07:57
Tarrence van As
In reply to this message
I always thought this article was fascinating: https://medium.com/@andy_bromberg/what-the-first-token-hostile-takeover-could-look-like-c40be3ccb6b5
07:58
Assuming you are suggesting a mechanism where AE token holders are incentivized to jump ship to Amoveo
Z
08:55
Zack
I think all these tricks are going to be less effective than just launching an altcoin, and having everyone sell the old token to buy altcoins.
EA
11:10
Eric Arsenault
What do you guys think of this project recently funded by Aragon? https://github.com/aragon/nest/pull/97
Z
11:21
Zack
They aren't describing the oracle anywhere.
What I see looks good, but if the oracle is essential. If they don't have a working oracle, then the whole thing doesn't work.
s
11:24
shiggidy (will never dm you first)
In reply to this message
Nobody paid for it, a community lawyer did it for free, but the community did have donations to donate to the lawyer. He refused the donations and instead had it donated to the development fund.
Z
11:32
Zack
Their conditional markets are a little inefficient. It is a cool trick to be able to split up existing markets that way, but since he is using lmsr, there is actually some waste.

If the market is going to be split into 4 possibilities, it would be better to use a 4-way lmsr, instead of 2 2-way lmsrs. because a 4-way only needs to lock up log(4) for liquidity, 2, 2-ways would need to lock up 2*log(2).

I think if you have 2 2-ways, you also run into some arbitrage inefficiencies.

Also, I am not really a fan of lmsr. It makes batches difficult, and batches are essential on a blockchain because the miners can order the txs in their block.
But maybe he found a rational way to use lmsr with batches, that would be cool.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Arbuz_01 invited Arbuz_01
Andrew invited Andrew
Димитрий МДФ ТЕХНО ФАСАД invited Димитрий МДФ ТЕХНО ФАСАД
Roman Yapona invited Roman Yapona
A
19:47
Aries
Welcome new users! 😄
RY
19:51
Roman Yapona
thanks)
A
19:51
Aries
check out https://amoveo.io/en/
EV
20:35
Evgeny Vlasov
😍😍😍
AK
20:44
Alex K
In reply to this message
❤️
9 December 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
OmgPuff invited OmgPuff
Deleted invited Deleted Account
18:25
Deleted Account
Zack you said u can crowdfund for anybody. I want to crowdfund for a snooker game built on unity framework where players can bet real crypto against each other in a match. There is a game popular here were people do the same thing with an in-game item that is useless.
Z
20:38
Zack
Sounds like fun.
I think you should program the game first, then we can use a crowd fund to sell it.

If you try to raise money now, I think less people would participate.

Or at least you need some more details about what you will build.
21:42
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
I get
Z
21:43
Zack
Maybe make a github page to at least describe your goals
21:43
maybe virtual snookers can be the alpaca socks of Amoveo.
22:01
Deleted Account
Can we talk on pm
Z
22:07
Zack
I pmed you.
22:16
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/tree-fix/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/txs/test_txs.erl#L847
I was thinking about making a testnet to try the new hard update out, but I realized that some unit tests are better because if we have questions that involve doing something before the fork, we can get answers to these questions quickly this way. without relaunching a testnet.
22:17
I tried to comprehensively test how the fork will effect oracles in any stage of the oracle evolution.
22:23
@potat_o @Simon3456
What do you think? do these tests make you feel more comfortable with this update?

It will enable sharding and more than double the block verification speed.
22:28
According the veoscan there are 7 oracles that will get stuck open and be unclose-able.
22:28
I think if we do the hard update in early january, that we will be able to close nearly all these oracles.
22:29
or I could write a bunch of risky software to transfer oracle bets from the old merkel trees into the new ones.
OK
22:35
O K
I don't see why tests and testnet are mutually exclusive
Z
22:35
Zack
testnet is still a good idea
22:36
but I don't want the goal of a testnet to be a limiting factor of getting this hard update done. ideally we should get this done quickly so that there isn't much delay when the oracle is inoperable.
OK
22:37
O K
I don't think a testnet should be very difficult should it?
22:37
Change a few lines of code and spin up some nodes
22:37
Maybe I'm forgetting something
22:38
We would want to start on the old codebase and then see how it upgrades of course
22:39
My objective is just to prevent fatal errors, but if we can commit to testnet after this update, I'm okay with moving forward without it one last time
22:40
Up to you guys
Z
22:51
Zack
The test I wrote seem to cover every possible case of how the oracle and fork can interact.
If you have any questions, I can write more tests to find out about your exact situation.
I think running a testnet to try the transition isn't so useful, and it comes with significant risks of transactions being replayed.
I am more willing to run a testnet that starts with the most up to date code.
10 December 2018
YoBoR Z invited YoBoR Z
YZ
01:03
YoBoR Z
Hi guys!
01:03
Prompt as in the bat file to register the name of the farm?
OK
01:03
O K
Address.workerid
01:04
B...=.farm
YZ
01:06
YoBoR Z
Thanks👍
01:08
If often knocks miner for 1080ti cards - add to the bat file pb=1?
OK
01:08
O K
Better to ask in discord #veominer
YZ
01:10
YoBoR Z
🙏
YZ
03:08
YoBoR Z
What port needs to be specified for amoveopool?
03:09
Depends if you are using stratum or get work
03:09
Veominer defaults to stratum
YZ
03:10
YoBoR Z
Thanks. What is the difference between Work and Stratum?
OK
03:12
O K
Stratum is more efficient, but not a huge issue
03:12
Use what works for you
YZ
03:16
YoBoR Z
Another question. When overclocking Nvidia cards - Memory need to do in the minus?
OK
03:16
O K
Best to #mining on discord
DevOps invited DevOps
D
16:06
DevOps
Guys, I'm not experienced, tell me how to mine amaveo, the miner himself and the pool
16:06
thanks
16:06
im mining 1080 msi
DV
16:19
Denis Voskvitsov
https://amoveo.io/en/mining/
BS
17:52
Bo Smubo
How many veo will 2 1080ti get in one day?
C
17:55
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
step one, download miner,
step two, run miner 24 hours,
step three, find out your answer =)
A
17:59
Al
In reply to this message
Chris cmon, are you everywhere? :)
C
17:59
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
Hahahaha 😂
D
19:16
DevOps
«МЧС инф.: Следите за состоянием печного отопления. Своевременно очищайте дымоходы, проверяйте и ремонтируйте печные трубы. При необходимости обращайтесь по телефону 01 или 101».
Z
19:21
Zack
In reply to this message
Ministry of Emergency Situations inf .: Monitor the condition of the furnace heating. Clean up chimneys in a timely manner, check and repair chimneys. If necessary, call 01 or 101

Are we part of the Russian emergency broadcast or something?

Chimney cleanliness is important. House fires kill.
[
19:58
[Riki]
does amoveo solve the russian dirty chimney crisis?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
11 December 2018
00:02
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
What are the replay risks if it's only a testnet chain? Does the testnet chain share the same txn history as the mainnet?
OK
01:06
O K
Without replay protection a transaction from address A to B could be rebroadcast from the testnet to the mainnet. There is no testnet yet, but one of the options we discussed would share the history
Z
01:07
Zack
even if they don't share history, I think we could run into some replay problems. if people reuse addresses.
01:07
maybe we should put some code in front of the addresses on the testnet, so the testnet node will refuse main net addresses, and the main net will refuse testnet addresses.
OK
01:08
O K
Could we alter the formula for how the wallets determine public keys from private ones?
01:08
Yeah
01:08
Add one letter prefix to all private keys
01:09
Not in the file, just automatically in the testnet wallet
Z
01:12
Zack
I think we want to stick a letter in front of the pubkey, right?
OK
01:16
O K
Private key seems easier. Since the key will always generate the same testnet address and same mainnet address, but they will not be the same between the two.
01:16
It would not actually modify the keyfile
01:16
Sticking a letter in front of the pubkey, could you even receive funds? I'm sure what you have in mind would work too
Z
01:19
Zack
if you modify the private key, the same pubkey would still look valid on both blockchains.
So people could end up accidentally sending veo to a pubkey that doesn't work.

If we modify the pubkey, then it can be impossible to spend to the old version of the pubkey.

So an account would have a pubkey = zPUB
Where "PUB" is an old valid pub, and the z is a letter z concatinated to the front.
Amoveo testnet verifies that the z is there, then it strips away the z and interprets the rest as a pubkey.

So if you accidentally send veo to a testnet address, it will be considered an invalid pubkey because there is a z in front that the mainnet doesn't know how to deal with.
OK
01:20
O K
I see, that makes sense
01:20
I wonder what measures ethereum testnet takes
01:21
That seems like a nice protective feature that I don't think I've seen before
Z
01:21
Zack
https://ethereum.stackexchange.com/questions/8197/are-addresses-between-different-networks-testnet-interchangeable
looks like the testnet in ethereum has this kind of replay vulnerability with the mainnet.
OK
01:22
O K
Amoveo paving the way yet again for innovation
Z
01:23
Zack
I think we aren't first. doesn't bitcoin do this already for it's testnet?
OK
01:23
O K
I have never used the bitcoin testnet, I'm not sure
Z
01:25
Zack
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/List_of_address_prefixes
It is on bitcoin main-net too.
OK
01:26
O K
Smart, seems like a good example to follow
S
03:22
Sy
In reply to this message
veoCL wasnt written by zack, it was just the first fast open source miner
put amoveopool in front of veopool pls
DV
03:22
Denis Voskvitsov
thanks, will change
03:22
why the order tho?:)
S
03:31
Sy
veopool is close or above 51%
03:32
and ppl tend to use the first pool they see
PB
12:49
Phil Bonello
This is interesting although they don't go into the specific design of their oracle https://umaproject.org/UMA-whitepaper.pdf
I
13:47
Igor
51diff (
N
13:57
NM$L
dump
MF
14:08
Mr Flintstone
diff jump looks like bad luck, it’ll go back down as long as net hash doesn’t spike
14:09
but hash rate did go up a bit
Deleted invited Deleted Account
15:39
Deleted Account
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
👋, 38.1 KB
15:43
hi
Maximilian von Hulewicz invited Maximilian von Hulewicz
EV
18:26
Evgeny Vlasov
Hi All! What s going on with pools?) .veopool.pw for example
S
18:27
Sy
for example?
EV
18:27
Evgeny Vlasov
clients in panic)
S
18:27
Sy
the pools?
18:27
amoveopool.com is running fine...for example 😂
Mv
18:29
Maximilian von Hulewicz
Hi just discovered amoveo today. Why was price mooning so hard recently?
EV
18:31
Evgeny Vlasov
hashrate droped according pool twice to 10%, but miners on rigs are showing 12gh. pool shows from 7 to 10
S
18:31
Sy
In reply to this message
unknown buyer / pump, not sure
EV
18:31
Evgeny Vlasov
In reply to this message
because it is fantastic coin
S
18:31
Sy
it will fix itself soon, sorry about that
Mv
18:36
Maximilian von Hulewicz
In reply to this message
duh...obviously ;)
18:37
i mean augur is live and has a working product, but finds little to no users, why would there be demand for amoveo in the future
B
18:39
Ben
veo is from tech point of view ahead of curve.
Mv
18:40
Maximilian von Hulewicz
In reply to this message
might be, i'm not able to judge that. bud veo is a utility token after all, right? if there is just no demand for prediction markets then why would the token be used, other than speculation.
B
18:42
Ben
does'nt that apply to whole crypto?
18:42
Read the whitepaper, make your own conclusion.
Mv
18:43
Maximilian von Hulewicz
In reply to this message
no, it doesn't.
Z
18:46
Zack
In reply to this message
Financial derivatives are the most popular use case of currency. The most popular blockchain will be for financial derivatives.

Augur has serious issues.
It uses voting, which is not cryptoeconomically secure. It is vulnerable to parasite contracts. And once subsidies are gone, it is thousands of times more expensive than amoveo.
Mv
18:52
Maximilian von Hulewicz
In reply to this message
interesting take on augur. again, technically not competent enough to see where augur fails. the only thing i see is lack of demand.

would you mind to give me your take on why augur hasn't been able to garner more interest in its markets?
Z
18:53
Zack
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/052715/how-big-derivatives-market.asp

The derivatives market is like 1 quadrillion dollars.
I doubt there is any product that has more demand than financial derivatives.
18:56
I already gave 3 solid reasons augur is failing to take over the market for derivatives. Not sure what more you want to know.
Mv
19:05
Maximilian von Hulewicz
In reply to this message
thanks. please eli5 to me then:
opposed to augur and other pred.markets,
how is veo more secure (in not using voting)?
why no parasite contracts on veo?
how can veo remain cost effective?
Z
19:10
Zack
Amoveo's oracle is futarchy based instead of democracy based. Unlike voting, betting can be cryptoeconomically secure.

Parasite contracts only exist if there is some authority we need to pay fees to. In augur's case you pay fees to the rep holders who vote on the outcome of the Oracle.
In augur you can make a contract called a parasite contract to use augur data without paying the rep holders.

Amoveo doesn't have any central authority we pay fees to, so there is no parasite contract vulnerability.

Amoveo is cost effective because we don't have to pay a fee to reputation holders.
We don't have to pay people lock up hundreds of millions of dollars in rep the way augur does.
19:11
So all 3 questions kind of have the same answer.
We don't use democracy, so we avoid all the shortcomings of democracy.
Mv
19:14
Maximilian von Hulewicz
In reply to this message
solid! thanks a lot for your explanation.

are you the founder zack?
Z
19:15
Zack
I am Zack the founder.
Mv
19:20
Maximilian von Hulewicz
In reply to this message
very cool!

i saw naval and nic following you, so this had to be a something promising ;)
keep up the great spirit!
T
19:21
Tromp
Zack is mimble wimble still a thing you want to implement in the future?
Z
19:22
Zack
In reply to this message
Probably not.
It turns out that if we don't use the range proofs, then we can't collapse signatures.
The range proofs are still actively being researched, I shouldn't implement them yet.
T
19:24
Tromp
In reply to this message
Cool, any thoughts on Grin?
Z
19:25
Zack
This is a place to talk about amoveo
T
19:26
Tromp
Ask you on twitter maybe?
Z
19:29
Zack
I have never looked into that project.
[
19:52
[Riki]
In reply to this message
lots of invalid shares u mean?
S
19:53
Sy
invalids are fixed but it will take some time for the valid invalid quote to return to good values
S
20:26
Sy
Right now the veopool stats are down, mining and your shares are unaffected
Z
20:26
Zack
So it is still safe to continue mining
S
20:31
Sy
yes but if you are really stressed out, nervous, whatever - please switch to amoveopool.com - we have to distribute the hashrate anyway
20:33
the pool is processing around 70 shares per second right now...successfully ofc xD
20:36
it looks like some ppl did, +3th on ap
20:41
did a manual stats snapshot
20:42
stats are updating every 3 minutes now
vavanu4 invited vavanu4
S
21:45
Sy
the pool is back to normal...what a morning!
MF
22:02
Mr Flintstone
https://graviex.net/markets/veobtc
22:02
FYI
22:02
idk anything about graviex so standard disclaimers apply (don’t trust them with money you can’t lose etc)
OK
22:12
O K
In reply to this message
Grin is the primary mimblewimble project. Some mW convo can be found be searching
DV
22:14
Denis Voskvitsov
Beam implements MW also, it's quite promising
12 December 2018
?
00:49
🤠Anton
In reply to this message
Yay! VEO on the run!:)
S
01:54
Shaun
Graviex is an open-source exchange software on Github that was used by the recently hacked Maplechange btw. I'm just sayin 😛
t
02:07
tunez 💙🚀
Is Veo a Link competitor?
S
02:08
Shaun
Link is like a subset of what Amoveo can do
t
02:08
tunez 💙🚀
Oh ok now I understand thanks
Z
02:31
Zack
In reply to this message
Doesn't chainlink have a broken oracle system?
If even one piece is not crypto-economically secure, then the entire process is centralized and you would be better off using a normal centralized service instead of a half-blockchain service.
S
02:34
Shaun
In reply to this message
wouldn't have said it better myself
Z
02:34
Zack
catweed
on veoscan, if I go to the holders page and scroll over the pie chart, it says an address and balance in a temporary box that appears next to your cursor.
This temporary box seems to be displaying your balance in miliVEO.
MF
02:36
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
right, I think their system is supposed to be like oracles are specific pubkeys providing data? so subject to bribery + retirement, or extremely high fees and retirement
02:37
lots of fanaticism around that project tbh
Z
02:37
Zack
A lot of projects are staring to use trusted feeds for oracles
02:37
It will be fun when public consensus realizes that they do not work.
MF
02:38
Mr Flintstone
as soon as there is decent controversy things will start to unfold
02:38
or people start betting lots on the outcomes
S
02:39
Shaun
In reply to this message
I got kinda excited when I've first heard about it too, didn't know about Amoveo at the time, so I kinda get why there would be fanatics.
Z
02:40
Zack
I think it is funny how the cuckoo mining community suddenly changed their minds, they used to think their algorithm was asic resistant, but now they say it is one of the easiest algorithms to make an asic for.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
03:06
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Thanks for pointing out, I fixed that now.
Z
03:06
Zack
In reply to this message
Great
MF
04:57
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
yup, before I really understood the economics around oracles I thought api based oracles would be good enough too
04:59
I even built an ethereum smart contract that lets you do CFD on any index and choose what pubkey supplies you the returns for the payment calculation (never deployed to mainnet) before realizing that the economics didn’t make sense
Z
04:59
Zack
Maybe we should make a list of trusted feed projects, their market caps today, and a prediction of their downfall. We could look back on it in a few years.
04:59
In reply to this message
That's a cool project
MF
05:00
Mr Flintstone
yeah, it matched orders based on hash of notional and index and maturity
05:00
and nonce
Z
05:01
Zack
I wonder about trusted feeds like in zen protocol.
Could they be useful?

Their plan is that the person supplying the data shouldn't know who, if anyone, has his data embedded in their contracts.
t
05:02
tunez 💙🚀
what about $ZAP ?
MF
05:02
Mr Flintstone
lol you should read the back and forth between zack and some zap dude on twitter
05:03
In reply to this message
even if you don’t know who is using your data to bet, can’t you just put out an order paying out based on your data and when it’s matched then you can steal the money?
t
05:04
tunez 💙🚀
have you even talked with szabo about this project Zack
Z
05:06
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes, it seems like everyone in the same market would need to use a public oracle.
So I guess secretive trusted feeds aren't useful for a market.

Maybe for otc trades?

It seems to me that either of the participants in the contract could bribe the Oracle and reveal the secret to him.
The Nash equilibrium might even be to bribe before the other person.
05:07
In reply to this message
I think he follows me on Twitter, so he must have a basic idea. I haven't had dialogue with him that I remember.
t
05:07
tunez 💙🚀
have you seen this?
Z
05:08
Zack
Yes, I saw this a few years ago. I can't remember all the details.
Smith invited Smith
Z
05:11
Zack
In reply to this message
I can't find it. Do you think he could have deleted it?
Their price did fall pretty hard after that conversation.
MF
05:11
Mr Flintstone
everything dumped I think, could have just been market beta
MF
05:12
Mr Flintstone
or maybe zack enlightened previously unaware zap investors
05:13
wow when I search “zap zack hess” there’s nothing
05:13
hmm
MF
05:13
Mr Flintstone
oh nvm idk what I did wrong
05:14
Here it is
Z
05:15
Zack
Oh right, these are the "bonding curve" guys
05:16
Thanks for finding it
M⛏
05:16
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
have seen a few similar situations where markets have gone into several rounds of dispute
Z
05:21
Zack
Nick szabo is a famous guy. He was writing about smart contracts and cryptography before it was cool.
05:22
Deleted Account
:)
Tv
05:29
Tarrence van As
Is my understanding correct that market orders are matched in batches and batches are matched once per block?
S
05:36
Shaun
yeah he was writing about smart contracts before Bitcoin existed lmao
Z
05:37
Zack
In reply to this message
The market smart contract in amoveo does match in single price batches.
You can set the number of blocks per batch when you make a market.
It is recommended to have at least 6 blocks per batch, otherwise a miner might be able to censor your txs and make your market lose every trade to everyone.
Tv
05:39
Tarrence van As
So in the case that I bet on a market that specifies 6 blocks per batch it would take ~1hr for my bet to be finalized?
Z
05:41
Zack
Your bet is finalized and included in the order book as soon as you send your signature to the market server.
Your bet might not get included in the first batch.

I programmed the market so that you can cancel any trade that hasn't been matched in a batch yet.
Once it has been matched, you can still exit the position by buying the opposite kind of share, and combining the opposite types to produce VEO.
Tv
05:42
Tarrence van As
Okay I see, just trying to wrap my head around the UX implications
Z
05:42
Zack
they are good questions, feel free to ask more any time
05:43
Having trades sit in an order book waiting to get matched is fairly typical on exchanges.
Tv
05:50
Tarrence van As
Yeah thats true. Although from a UX perspective, I think a typical users will always prefer the instant gratification of immediate market order execution that centralized exchanges like bitmex provide. Would it be possible to create a non-custodial bitmex with a low batch time where users still trust the exchange to fairly match orders?
05:51
On the spectrum of tradeoffs I think that could be pretty compelling. I.e. I don’t mind trusting bitmex to fairly match orders, my main concern is that regulators seize their assets
Z
05:52
Zack
https://youtu.be/mAtD0ba-hXU
Kinda like the instant gratification of throwing money in a wishing well. All gone.
05:54
I don't understand your question.
Not clear what "non-custodial" exchanges are.
Low batch time is a bad idea.
I don't know what you mean by "trust the exchange to fairly match orders".
Tv
06:10
Tarrence van As
Today we trust an exchange like bitmex to both custody funds and fairly match orders. It seems we can make these both trustless with Amoveo. My question is if it is possible to create a non-custodian market where the matching is still trusted. So the exchange could never run off with a users funds but it could still have a real-time interface similar to existing centralized solutions?
MF
06:11
Mr Flintstone
we can program anything we want, but zack would probably say that a single trusted mechanism renders the entire use of a blockchain pointless
Z
06:11
Zack
If the exchange robs you during the matching step vs any other step, does it make a difference?
Tv
06:13
Tarrence van As
I think the threat models are different though. I can, for example, trust an exchange like bitmex since they have established their reputation and it is presumably in their best interest execute orders fairly rather than risk losing the trust of customers. However, there is nothing they can do about a government coming around and demanding they freeze assets
MF
06:13
Mr Flintstone
i guess the degree to which your funds are stolen from trusted matching is different from centralized custody
Z
06:14
Zack
If a limit order always gets matched at the limit price, that isn't as bad as losing everything, but it does add significant cost.
06:14
If an exchange was robbing you this way, would you even be able to know it is happening?
06:16
What if a gov takes over, but instead of freezing it, they do unfair matching to confiscate funds.
06:16
They have run honey pots before
MF
06:16
Mr Flintstone
in a continuous model, you can only unfairly match the liquidity taker right
06:17
someone who is giving a market buy or sell order to the exchange
Z
06:17
Zack
If the match price isn't fair, the market can rob by taking arbitrage spread
06:18
Front running can be an issue too
06:18
If batches are too quick
Tv
06:33
Tarrence van As
That could be an issue but users are already exposed to that possibility with existing exchanges. I think there would be a large market for a non-custodial market that still had trusted order execution (purely because of better ux)
06:34
When I hear people concerns about existing exchanges it is almost never that they are front-running, ect. It is almost always the custodial risk in keeping assets on the exchange that could either be hacked or seized by regulators. So on the spectrum of trade-offs it might be something interesting to explore
Z
06:37
Zack
regulators could use front running and arbitrage to seize assets.
Tv
06:39
Tarrence van As
While that is technically true I think operationally that would be much harder to do and seems legally questionable
Z
06:39
Zack
If I helped build something that was vulnerable to front running and arbitrage, I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror. Users don't understand what is going on behind the scenes, they wouldn't even know they are being robbed.
MK
06:45
Matej Kebe
This two guys at devcon4 had a good talk about how to prevent frontrunning on dex-es. https://youtu.be/JxAgNeFg6QM?list=PLaM7G4Llrb7yNMZoJEhoi_448kXkUK7FC
Tv
06:46
Tarrence van As
That is fair. I’m definitely on the same page that fully decentralized solutions are ideal. The biggest question in my mind is whether users will care. Usually it takes some sort of event to change the publics perception of risk and compels them to use a solution with inferior ux. Today custodial risk is very apparent due to hacks and perhaps that is enough for users to adopt amoveo. Front-running, arbitrage, ect. are still outside of the publics purview, so it is a harder sell as a value proposition.
06:47
Even in the case of trusted oracle data streams I have the same concern. It is apparent to us that they are not secure but it will take some sort of overt manipulation for that to become common knowledge. The question is how we can survive until then. It could be years before that happens.
MF
06:48
Mr Flintstone
if it’s profitable it’ll be built :)
06:48
this is open architecture
06:48
someone could make a lot of money hosting an amoveo server like this if there is real demand
06:49
basically replacing bitmex
Tv
06:49
Tarrence van As
I hope so!
BS
06:55
Bo Smubo
Anyone selling google cloud accounts that have 300 USD promotion code?
Z
07:01
Zack
In reply to this message
commit reveal to prevent front running is something we have been talking about since 2014 at least. That is when I proposed it to the truthcoin project, and it got included in their design.
commit-reveal has some serious problems, and I don't think it should be used to prevent front running, although it can be a part of a secure system.
Problems:
1) people can make commits, and refuse to reveal them. This gives them the option to front run, if someone else happens to be betting in the same market in the same blocks. This doesn't always work, but in some cases front running can profitably occur.
2) commit-reveal needs to be on-chain. It involves at least 2 on-chain transactions per trade, even if the trade does not get matched in the order book. This means commit-reveal is more expensive, and is not scalable.
We can match batches off-chain in the lightning network.

Another thing to take into consideration is that commit reveal is also slow. The commit-reveal has 2 on-chain transaction and you have to wait for confirmations between each to prevent front running.

It really disappoints me how the cryptocurrency community ignores the rich history in game theory and economics.
Vickery solved the auction problem a long time ago and got a nobel prize for it.
We should use single price batches.
07:07
In reply to this message
If there is a central authority deciding the outcome, then you need to pay them enough so it is not worth it for them to cheat and steal.
Even if they never cheat, they will still lose against Amoveo because they cost more. The fees to use a centralized arbiter are higher than the fees to use an Amoveo oracle.
MF
07:38
Mr Flintstone
I don’t think we need to worry, since single price batching is better for people’s money it means most volume will end up in single price batching markets instead of continuous
MF
08:08
Mr Flintstone
but ppl will use the software however they want, so we shouldn’t be too surprised if some continuous iterations of the markets are more popular at first given how ppl are comfortable w/ continuous markets
08:08
maybe not tho
Z
08:11
Zack
As a blockchain developer, my reputation is hugely important to me. Maybe people currently think that continuous markets are ok, but they are not cryptoeconomically secure.
I feel that building an insecure tool could be suicide for my career. I have to put the security of user's funds as the highest priority.
08:12
Ideally people would see that a mechanism was written by me, and it would give them the peace of mind that they will not be scammed.
MF
08:13
Mr Flintstone
right, I could never see you programming this type of market
SS
08:49
Spike Spiegel
"Great minds discuss protocols;
Average minds discuss implementations;
Small minds discuss parameters. " xD
T
08:55
Topab
Zack I read the conversation you had with Bharath in Leverj telegram. Wasn't at the end the conclusion that front running was not an issue in continuous markets?
Z
08:59
Zack
@pgonza https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAtD0ba-hXU check out this video if you want to learn about why front running and arbitrage are such big problems in continuous markets.
Z
09:28
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8080/ext/getmoneysupply
You can see the current total number of satoshis in the browser like this.
Someone requested this be added to the api
SS
09:28
Spike Spiegel
Yup, it's required for coinmarketcap / coinpaprika mcap calculation
Z
09:29
Zack
did I do it right?
SS
09:29
Spike Spiegel
Nope, it should be in VEO units (not mVEO)
Z
09:30
Zack
ok
Z
09:49
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8080/ext/getmoneysupply
now with a decimal.