Amoveo ♥🧿
15 November 2018
DV
00:05
Denis Voskvitsov
I've met some.
I don't say it's a silver bullet but in our case it's a good solution, since we don't need an orchestration and run quite complex suite for the node.
Z
00:05
Zack
the only person I met that tried out docker, and said he thought docker was a good tool was an employee of docker.
?
00:05
👋
In reply to this message
docker is realy good for something like that (ml, I mean)
OK
00:05
O K
Anyway if someone is willing to maintain such a thing, no one would be forced to use it
?
00:05
👋
compared to python's virtualenv
OK
00:06
O K
It could be a valuable resource for some of us, disclaimers could be put around it
DV
00:06
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
true. there is always a choice.
Z
00:06
Zack
Sure, we can't stop anyone from publishing whatever they want
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M
03:12
Mike
Shouldn’t we have a gitter for this?
S
03:14
Sy
we are using docker at our company...made alot much easier
S
03:30
Shaun
We use docker for literally everything 😄
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05:17
Deleted Account
I think Docker is a waste of time. Spend rather two minutes to set up the firewall, and you know what you have. My brief encounter with Docker was confusing, and then you need to understand the port mapping and such. Also making all Amoveo servers running the exact same code opens up for an attack shutting then all down at once due to a configuration issue
S
05:18
Sy
hmm
05:18
so all nodes updated is different to running "exact same code"?
05:30
Deleted Account
Hope this helps for newbies: https://veodocs.github.io/
05:30
Pulls/transforms markdown straight from master branch of zack-bitcoin/amoveo/docs
05:32
There are issues with internal linking (e.g. one file linking to another in the repo) that I hope to resolve. Currently, linking to a specific section on the page works by right-click/copying the link, e.g: https://veodocs.github.io/#docs/design/accounts.md
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07:56
Deleted Account
Just updated ^ so it isn't so damn slow.
08:01
The goal of making the above site was to make Zack's writing more accessible to people. People have this aversion to Github because it's where code lives. Rather than trying to fight that notion I stripped away the "code" and collapsed the file/folder structure into a single searchable page.
08:02
Going forward it requires no maintenance on my end -- there is no server or domain to manage and the client pulls the latest docs from Zack's repo. Happy to make improvements if the community has any suggestions.
OK
08:02
O K
Pretty cool @chejazi, thanks for making that.
M
08:05
Mike
In reply to this message
Looks good thanks
MF
08:08
Mr Flintstone
good idea!
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09:16
Deleted Account
Thanks all. I also just fixed the urls. So, for instance, clicking any of the links under the "Different types of commands" section in https://veodocs.github.io/#docs/api/commands.md will take you to the relevant section of the documentation, rather than a broken url. Ok now i will shut up about it 🙂
m
11:04
mm
There was a lot of issues with docker in the past, but today is de facto standard. It’s widely used in mature production environments. Every company I worked with use them.
11:05
And they are great for providing additional levels of security isolation
11:06
You can provide dockerfile in repo and with two commands build it and run it
11:06
Without thinking about installing dependencies, setting up firewall etc.
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m
11:15
mm
In reply to this message
Have you tried switching from computer hostname to “localhost” or sth like that when connecting? It has to be matching to be able to connect.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
13:23
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Thanks for the feedback! I just looked at their layouting engine. Would putting the table of contents on the left side make it more readable?
13:25
Not sure what the Gitbook workflow is, but I'm generally against Zack or any other contributors adopting a new processes for this.
Z
13:44
Zack
I think there are a lot of cases where I started writing a doc, and then just forgot about it completely.
Z
13:52
Zack
Augur raised lots of money. They can advertise to the world about prediction markets, and then it will be easier to sell Amoveo.
T
13:53
Topab
👍
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Z
14:10
Zack
We should do a dominant assurance contract to reward someone for making an open source fusion reactor with Q > 0.02, and have the cost of materials be less than $1000.

So for 1000 kwh of energy we spend, it can produce 20 kwh of energy by combining hydrogen into bigger atoms.

If we use incremental dominant assurance contracts, maybe we will eventually fully fund the technology for affordable fusion energy generators.

It would be like having a tiny star inside a boat, and the energy from the star makes the boat go fast.

Think of how fast we could mine cryptocurrency if we could convert the hydrogen in our oceans into pure energy.
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Titan invited Titan
S
16:09
Sy
keep the mining questions in discord pls
AK
19:20
A K
TIL part of the BCH forking debate is the so called DSV feature in BitcoinABC - apparently allowing for onchain oracles
Z
19:49
Zack
In reply to this message
It is hard to see how the new opcode could be useful.
Bitcoin script already had multisig.
There are already applications like bitrated where a third party controls the outcome of a payment.

I think the new opcode won't make any difference for bch capabilities.

At least this is a sign that oracles are a popular use case.
AK
19:53
A K
yep, exactly my point - oracels are getting more and more popular, which is good for veo
16 November 2018
Denis invited Denis
OK
01:11
O K
Is someone deleting the spam faster than I can get to it, or are the spammers doing some weird post&delete thing?
Z
01:12
Zack
someone beat me to it the other day. maybe one of the admins set up a script.
S
01:47
Sy
Good timing
01:47
I deleted it
OK
01:47
O K
Nice
S
01:47
Sy
Got a quick Preview of a new message and deleted it a second later 😁
OK
01:48
O K
Glad we are on top of it!
MF
01:53
Mr Flintstone
I’ve been deleting a good amount of spam
Z
01:53
Zack
thank you guys, it is nice having less spam.
M
03:22
Minieep21
I can help if you ever need another mod
03:22
But you all seem to be on top of it 😂
Irina Irina invited Irina Irina
PB
06:41
Phil Bonello
In reply to this message
Awesome stuff
SS
07:46
Spike Spiegel
What is daily veo issuance in $?
MF
07:51
Mr Flintstone
0.7*144*200
Z
07:52
Zack
0.7*144*200*6/5
for the developer reward
MF
07:54
Mr Flintstone
already includes it since block reward is 0.64
Z
07:54
Zack
Oh, my mistake
MF
07:54
Mr Flintstone
I guess a little underestimating, but blocks are 11min anyways
Z
07:54
Zack
Right. So it is like 130 blocks per day
OK
07:55
O K
144*0.732*200?
Z
07:59
Zack
Around $19k per day is my guess
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IP
15:16
I P
In reply to this message
Wow that is a lot of money
S
15:17
Sy
the last lost tx from veopool was at height 40293, before that 39223 - this is looking really good
IP
15:18
I P
But mining difficulty is high right now, rx580 with 2ghs on veo not that profitable
15:18
Verus was crazy profitable in summer, but not profitable right now
T
15:27
Titan
In reply to this message
what hasrate&
15:27
?
AK
15:28
A K
Whole network
15:29
144 blocks at 0.732 veo each at $200 per veo
IP
15:59
I P
Anyone knows very profitable coins to mine right now so i could sell them and buy more veo?
?
16:02
👋
usd
AK
16:07
A K
In reply to this message
Wait, it was you in this channel multiple times mentioning other more profitable coins and never ever once disclosing them ))) nor here neither in discord
16:07
that's really funny ;)
[
16:19
[Riki]
In reply to this message
Bcashsv, the real bchcore. #troll
Z
20:30
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/commit/6dc8198d4c241b91a05c31d7b8027f765909dde8
I started writing the hard fork we have been discussing. to move oracle bets into a faster part of the merkel tree.
Z
21:53
Zack
Amoveo's merkel tree is actually faster than the blockchain consensus state merkel tree I have seen in any other project.

With every other project I have seen, there is a tree built for organizing how data is stored, and on top of that tree they build the merkle tree.
So every step of traversing the merkel tree means looking up an entire branch of the storage tree.

In Amoveo the merkel tree and the storage tree are the same thing.
So Amoveo is order O(log16(things being stored)) of disk reads to look up something.
Other blockchains are O(log16(things being stored) * log100(pages of things being stored)) of disk reads to look something up.

Amoveo's tree is always going to be at least 3 or 4 times faster.
21:54
Another nice side effect of this strategy is that we don't have a dependency like leveldb, or any of the security issues that come with maintaining a dependency like that.
AK
22:00
A K
i think most blockchain explorers still parse the bc and store it in a plain old RDBMS
22:00
with O(1) lookups
Z
22:01
Zack
structure of a blockchain explorer doesn't help with any of this:
* reducing cost of running a full node.
* reducing cost of syncing a full node.
* increasing the volume of txs per second.
* decreasing cost of security and maintenance of the full node
AK
22:02
A K
indeed, doesn't
17 November 2018
stfchamp invited stfchamp
OK
02:54
O K
I think it's related to missing channel closures
Z
02:54
Zack
the most recent tx isn't listed
02:54
and it is for the missing 2 veo
S
02:55
Sy
BCjdlkTKyFh7BBx4grLUGFJCedmzo4e0XT1KJtbSwq5vCJHrPltHATB+maZ+Pncjnfvt9CsCcI9Rn1vO+fPLIV4=
02:55
i win xD
Z
02:55
Zack
Sy's explorer is more accurate. Lets do a speed test
OK
02:55
O K
What is type 'nc'
Z
02:55
Zack
new channel
S
02:55
Sy
i pull the balance from a node every time i see a pubkey in a block, no other way to really do it
Z
02:56
Zack
from your own node?
S
02:56
Sy
i had yours in the list
Z
02:56
Zack
oh, that is the result we were avoiding, right
S
02:56
Sy
but you went out of sync xD
02:56
i am pulling from 2 different nodes in sequence
02:56
but yes, managed by me
02:56
but not the pool node :)
Z
02:57
Zack
it is a nice explorer
S
02:57
Sy
thanks
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11:16
Deleted Account
hi guyz
11:19
where can I find the detailed information about possible actions when users believe that oracle is wrong?

the fisrt option is to double bets, i know

the second option is a split of network. but i need more information on this. how do participants ititiate this?

and are the other options?
Z
11:21
Zack
just add a rule that prevents any oracle_close tx that would close it in the wrong state.
11:53
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
I noticed that there was a bug in orphan block detection. Your balance is fixed.
11:59
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Some detais needed. Who adds such rule? User who believe that oracle lies?
12:02
In reply to this message
is there any text about this in github or other site?
12:08
Deleted Account
In this chat I heard that AmoVEO may be forked if someone does not agree with oracle answer. How to do this in practice?
12:08
thanx, i'll read
MF
12:08
Mr Flintstone
you make your node reject any blocks that contain an oracle_close_tx of a certain type
12:08
for that oracle’s OID
12:09
this is a validity rule configuration that needs to be added. it isn’t already programmed
Z
12:09
Zack
When the blockchain forks, it is like when bitcoin cash split from bitcoin.
You need to download different software if you want to participate on the side that has less hashpower.
MF
12:10
Mr Flintstone
I bet we could have like an oracle overwrite config file
12:15
Deleted Account
thank you for answers!
12:16
very similar to ETH split in 2016
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T
15:27
Tromp
15:27
I assume this is you @khoazany3
15:27
Lol @ the reply from cryptodog
16:23
Circulating Supply only 34,821 ????
16:23
any one whale can manuplate this coin..
AK
16:28
A K
veoscan.io
pp
16:29
pakka pamma
thanks
T
17:12
Tromp
In reply to this message
😂😂
S
17:52
Sy
market cap 49,047 VEO
17:53
so around 10m
[
18:16
[Riki]
In reply to this message
So if we do a coin split 1:100, have we successfully defended against whales?
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S
18:59
Sy
umm wouldnt price just go /100, same same?
19:00
you can only grow, there is no other way
[
19:03
[Riki]
Yeah, i dont understand the logic behind what pakka wrote
S
19:50
S S
He is right
[
19:58
[Riki]
In reply to this message
How?
S
19:59
S S
Price manipulation is easy
19:59
Wiping out the order book either side
19:59
Wont cost much
19:59
Has no affect on the network or product though
19:59
Just price
[
20:00
[Riki]
Whats the relatioship with circulating supply that pakka wrote?
S
20:00
S S
Amount of amoveo that can be sold
20:00
Or bought
20:00
If they wanted to buy up everything
[
20:01
[Riki]
So why does a low circulating supply matter?
20:01
What you write is non-sense, sorry
S
20:01
S S
Lesser coins to buy up or sell
[
20:01
[Riki]
Lesser coins at higher price, you mean
S
20:01
S S
Hey u dont get it but it is true
20:01
Ya price higher
20:01
I just keep paying more
20:01
And buy everything
20:01
Hence price manipulated
[
20:02
[Riki]
Example. 10 coins @ 100 usd = 100 coins @ 10 usd = 1000 usd in both cases. Where is the difference related to supply
S
20:02
S S
Then more people start buying
[
20:02
[Riki]
No no u dont get it
S
20:02
S S
And when there is enough demand at a higher price than what ive bought
20:02
I dump it
20:02
Easy whale 101
[
20:02
[Riki]
That has nothing to do with the quantity lol
S
20:03
S S
Buddy ur lol sums up ur knowledge of how the markets work
20:03
Anyway not here for this
[
20:03
[Riki]
Lol buddy
S
20:03
S S
Bye bye
20:03
Enjoy
[
20:03
[Riki]
I am amazed by you now
20:04
Can someone else comment pls? @Simon3456 😁
S
20:06
S S
Why does it concern u . Amoveo would run fine irrespective of cost
[
20:06
[Riki]
In reply to this message
It doesnt matter how many coins u buy, just the value. P x Q
20:06
It doesnt concern me, your logic concerns me
Z
20:06
Zack
A rose is smells sweet, even if you don't call it a "rose".

Blockchains work the same, no matter how many satoshis there are per token.
S
20:07
S S
In reply to this message
Demand and supply basic way a market functions . How can it be so tough to get it . Dont get ur ego in the way. Demand supply will always affect price
20:07
In reply to this message
Yup . And thats all that matters right now . That we have a better product .
[
20:07
[Riki]
Thanks, i have a finance postgrad
S
20:08
S S
In reply to this message
Burn it
[
20:08
[Riki]
I didnt talk about demand and aupply. But quantity.
S
20:08
S S
😂😂
20:08
Wow
[
20:08
[Riki]
pp
pakka pamma 17.11.2018 16:23:32
Circulating Supply only 34,821 ????
20:08
any one whale can manuplate this coin..
[
20:08
[Riki]
You missed the point. No one spoke about d & s. But quantity of coins.
S
20:09
S S
In reply to this message
Wow . Just wow . Just wow
20:10
What governs demand and suppky in this case sir
20:10
Is no. Of coins not one of those things
20:10
Why u do this senior riki
[
20:10
[Riki]
Not number of coins but number AND PRICE of coins. Lower number of coins > higher price. Value remains.
20:10
My head hurts
S
20:11
S S
In reply to this message
Its like when ur sitting on ur but and not doing anything
20:11
Butt
20:11
Use ze head
20:11
Comon
Z
20:11
Zack
A lot of people here don't use english as their primary language.
Riki is technically correct.

Anyway, discussions like this aren't very useful on the amoveo forum.
S
20:11
S S
Find the corelation sir
20:12
Ok zack
20:12
Riki ur right im wrong buddy
20:12
I apologise
[
20:12
[Riki]
Read about stock split, dividends, dividend irrelevancy and other corporate finance methods that do NOT create value for shareholders. Quantity is a irrelevant aspect alone. So pakka and you are wrong.
S
20:12
S S
Ok sir
[
20:13
[Riki]
✌️
20:13
Deleted Account
plz remove last 50 messages
S
20:13
Sy
if you do a split all balances go up, the single veo would be worth less -> same market cap
20:13
if you change supply and demand the same would happen
20:13
it actually did, we voted down block reward
20:13
the problem is, dont feed the trolls xD its the internet, if you think someone is clearly wrong and he didnt get it the first time, just stop trying 😂
20:14
he will either never get it or is trolling you anyway
S
20:16
S S
I left the topic so that time is not wasted
[
20:17
[Riki]
 'Never argue with trolls, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.'
S
20:17
Sy
😂
S
20:18
S S
Maybe an easy google will help yall
S
20:19
Sy
not really
20:19
you are talking about theory you cant apply to amoveo, theory is correct, reality kicks you in the ass
S
20:19
S S
Asking a question doesnt make u a troll
20:19
I suggest some meditation in these tough times
20:19
To remove the edgyness
Z
20:20
Zack
One of my favorite applications of amoveo is the lie detector.

When people make promises about the future, we can use amoveo to find out if they are honest.
S
20:20
S S
And i am not arguing the concept cos zack said so . U can go on
S
20:21
Sy
im off, taking a walk with my boy 😎
Z
20:22
Zack
The amoveo lie detector will force politicians to campaign honestly, to help clean up corruption in governments.
20:24
Deleted Account
tax money should be used to subsidy truth
Z
20:26
Zack
We don't need taxes to fund this.
Lie detector markets are profitable to run and participate in.
Anyone with a financial interest in the outcome of the election can benefit from making a bet to hedge their risk.
20:27
Deleted Account
yea not for this
Z
20:27
Zack
People who would benefit from the right wing winning, they make a big bet that the left wing will win. This hedges their risk so they don't lose too much either way.
20:31
Deleted Account
just need to get to the place where people will learn to shut up or bet on amoveo
20:31
couple years maybe
AK
20:39
A K
In reply to this message
Never I'm afraid ) you seriously expect ppl to shut up 😂
20:40
Deleted Account
enlightenmetn 2.0
T
20:42
Tromp
In reply to this message
Could you give a simple example to wrap my head around this please
Z
20:44
Zack
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/9xrex1/parents_deliver_ashes_of_diabetic_children_to/?utm_source=reddit-android

It is so tragic how people in the USA can't get basic medication. What terrifies me even more is how the pharmaceutical companies are controlling the narrative and making the situation worse.

Using basic game theory, you can show that price gouging (over-charging) is a bad business strategy. A competitor will undercut your product and steal your customers.

The only time price gouging can be a successful strategy is if there is a law preventing competitors from undercutting you.

So an accurate narrative would be: government corruption is creating laws that protect a monopolist medical company from competition. Which means they can charge us outrageous prices.

Instead the narrative is: medical companies have too much freedom to charge whatever price they want for medicine. We need government controls of the price of medicine.

This false narrative is a dangerous lie.
Look at Venezuela.
Government pricing controls is exactly what the monopolist wants to completely prevent competition.

Amoveo is the lie detector that can save lives.
T
20:49
Tromp
In reply to this message
Im from Venezuela so i am very interested in this 🍺
Bo Smubo invited Bo Smubo
Sanzhar Satkeev invited Sanzhar Satkeev
OK
21:49
O K
In reply to this message
This combined with "certificates of need," causing the very same problem: less competition and higher prices.
22:50
Deleted Account
What is the state of the scalar market?
AK
23:17
A K
ready, according to Zack, but I've yet to see one..
23:30
Deleted Account
should we run one?
MF
23:40
Mr Flintstone
we can do it on something benign like difficulty or rainfall or something so everyone who wants can participate
AK
23:42
A K
veo/usd
MF
23:45
Mr Flintstone
or that lol
18 November 2018
SS
00:46
Spike Spiegel
"Amoveo's VEO is listed on coinmarketcap.com before midnight December 31st 2018 UTC" - nobody betting there?
AK
00:53
A K
That's an oracle though?
SS
00:55
Spike Spiegel
00:55
Market
CH
01:01
Chris Hortski
In reply to this message
This says expires Nov 24, 2018? I hope we dont have any auger situations bc of this
SS
01:01
Spike Spiegel
Ah, somebody messed up then
I
01:11
Instinct
In reply to this message
Does anything prevent manipulation of results like this? Say I'm in charge of listings at cmc & can control the outcome.
S
01:15
Sy
Inside betting
01:16
But thats just the market bet, not the hopefully linked oracle
MF
01:16
Mr Flintstone
if we bet no then we incentivize listing
AK
01:27
A K
In reply to this message
That's the idea of a market like this exactly
I
01:27
Instinct
In reply to this message
Would the result stand if someone was found of inside betting?
01:28
In reply to this message
hm, not sure I understand
AK
01:28
A K
If you're in charge of listing at CMC the ppl of Veo would be willing to pay for the listing
01:29
By the way of such a market
S
01:29
Sy
In reply to this message
I think so even tho the community could react by betting the oracle to bad question
01:29
So everyone would get their money back
IP
01:32
I P
In reply to this message
А тебе фиг
AK
01:37
A K
In reply to this message
I don't see why would it
01:38
In reply to this message
Where is that from btw? How can there be a markets explorer, if they are centralised?
I
01:40
Instinct
In reply to this message
Interesting, seems there's a conflict here between people who would be willing to lose the bet - in order to pay for the listing & those who find it unacceptable someone who controlled the result was involved in the market. Not sure where legality would play into this too
S
01:45
Sy
There is no legality imho
01:45
Everyone with balance can interact after all
MF
02:02
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
not even in charge of cmc. in charge of any exchange on cmc too
02:02
so smaller exchanges could claim the prize as well
02:04
In reply to this message
I feel like the community will think that veo is more valuable if it can enable self-bootstrapping with reliable oracles like this, so it wouldn’t go bad question
M
03:24
Mike
We should just pay for Poloniex listing
S
04:35
Sy
Those fees are for "i got a standard coin, just list my shit" and not for a full custom implementation
04:35
Its not that easy
18:54
Any volunteers to apply?
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AK
19:47
A K
I think we should start from point 7
MF
22:59
Mr Flintstone
we should be doing that anyways
22:59
I’ve seen a good amount of ppl cite the 35k supply figure
T
23:07
Topab
I heard in apodcast Paul Sztorc will be building a prediction market as a sidechain in bitcoin. That should be a good project to follow too. Not sure how logit will take. Sidechains are taking very long
Z
23:11
Zack
Paul Sztorc came up with the blockchain prediction market idea. Amoveo is my attempt to build his dream.
He inspired me to take up this project.
I was the biggest contributor to his forum for a long time.

But, Paul's design is a lot more expensive than Amoveo's.

In bitcoin hivement there is vote-coin, and the holders of vote-coin vote on the outcome of each oracle.
In order to work correctly, the voters need to be paid enough in fees so that it is more profitable for them to be honest and earn fees instead of being dishonest to cheat a market and steal all the money.
All these fees make it prohibitively expensive to use Paul Sztorc's design.
23:12
because of things like parasite contracts, it isn't possible to enforce these betting fees.
So trading fees are basically voluntary, and the nash equilibrium is that no one will pay them.
23:12
which means it is the nash equilibrium for vote-coin holders to lie and steal from the market.
T
23:22
Topab
That sounds like Augur we discussed few days ago here. I hope in the sidechain it will make the same mistakes. In a drivechain is more like in paralell with bitcoin. He will probably use bitcoin as the native currency for betting. But I am not sure, I just listen to it in a podcast
Z
23:22
Zack
Augur and bitcoin hivemind are using almost identical oracle designs.
T
23:43
Topab
He can try and solve that since it has not been yet implemented and he is aware of the problem
Z
23:45
Zack
He is aware of the problem, but he will not fix it.
23:46
You can see paul's work and plans online.
Like amoveo, there are no secrets to the plan.
19 November 2018
Z
05:14
Zack
If I make a disclaimer on my exchange that the only people who are allowed to trade are people currently located in Yemen, or some other small country that will ignore us, will this protect me from being sued by random institutions in the other 200-odd countries?
AK
05:14
A K
practice shows youll need to put more effort
05:14
filter ips
05:14
require docs
05:15
disclaimer alone won’t help
Z
05:15
Zack
Ok, thanks
05:16
So if I add a button that automatically forges paperwork from Yemen, and sends the forged documents to me by email?
SS
05:17
Spike Spiegel
05:19
BTW I've created a service for checking such stuff - boring compliance / AML
https://medium.com/@kacperwikiel/boson-vision-66bb31a9bd57

And funny thing is that with 1:1 relationship between pubkey and person ID one can implement multiple checks like this easily and track people (zero privacy)
05:20
From actual lawyer: the method for checking whatever person is in Yemen doesn't have to work perfectly - but it's important that you have procedure for that and it's unlawful to circumvent paperwork (if you are bank clerk etc)
05:27
also btw - how many accounts with not zero balance are there?
05:27
Total of 3017 holders right?
Z
05:28
Zack
if an account has less than a tx fee, it is the same as zero.
I think there are less than 2000 accounts with positive balances
SS
06:02
Spike Spiegel
06:02
Seems like there is inflow of ~10 accounts per day
Deleted invited Deleted Account
OK
06:12
O K
In reply to this message
I've seen a lot of talk on twitter lately showing coins with market caps of like 500mil with 90 unique addresses or whatever
06:12
Amoveo has gotten a lot of use, all things considered
Z
06:14
Zack
2000 accounts divided over 8 months since launch is an average of like 8 new accounts per day
06:15
A person can make around 500 accounts with a single block if they wanted to.
In 40 minutes you could double the number of accounts.
06:15
at a cost of about 2.8 veo
OK
06:16
O K
In reply to this message
I'm sure a lot of coins have have bots that do this for much cheaper than 500USD regularly on their chains to make it seem like they get used.
SS
06:16
Spike Spiegel
Nobody is doing transaction data manipulations yet as people aren't connecting blockchain data to price yet
OK
06:16
O K
While possible, I don't have any reason to believe that's ever occurred with veo. I believe it's been organic
SS
06:17
Spike Spiegel
Still I believe that having some usage metrics that are hard to fake is good thing - issuance is hardest to fake IHMO
OK
06:17
O K
👍
Z
06:17
Zack
you can't fake hashpower
OK
06:17
O K
True.
SS
06:18
Spike Spiegel
But you can fake energy expenditure :)
Single SHA256 actually begs for ASIC as it's even simpler design and SHA is very simple to implement using basic logic gates
OK
06:20
O K
I think a few of us have looked into asic production. Even so, asics on veo's unique algo would be an even bigger milestone than our hash rate would reveal without them, to me anyway.
SS
06:28
Spike Spiegel
Funny thing - hash rate of bitcoin reduced from ~62 units to 42 units so there is probably additional capacity (any price increase would increase diff as well - reducing miners profitability further so they have to sell more % from what they mine to pay for electricity )
06:29
For price be stable people need to buy ~8M of bitcoin per day
OK
06:30
O K
Are you suggesting that a bitcoin asic could be repurposed for veo?
SS
06:32
Spike Spiegel
It would be funny - but I don't think it's possible - right now most gains would be from further optimisation of miner code maybe
Z
06:33
Zack
I think bitcoin Asics do both hashes at the same time
06:35
I guess it would be bad if someone made an asic that could do either bitcoin or Veo.
06:35
The community might even consider switching hashing algorithms if that happened.
SS
06:40
Spike Spiegel
Also single SHA256 miners may be used for collision finding for SHA256 - any additional utility of hash function is bad
OK
06:41
O K
In reply to this message
Interesting, can you expound on this?
06:41
This actually sounds very bad to me, that's a great point
SS
06:42
Spike Spiegel
Dictionary attack - you have single SHA256 of a password but you don't know exact password string - so you can iterate via "common passwords" dict faster
06:43
And single SHA256 may be paralleled slightly
OK
06:43
O K
And as far as we know, right now, does specialised hardware for this exist or not?
06:43
If not, it seems very bad to inadvertantly fund this advancement. Zack
06:44
BTW what's the input for hash function in amoveo?
06:49
"The reader may question as to why an additional application of SHA256 is made at the end.
One explanation [7] why Satoshi Nakamoto chose to have double SHA256 hashing is to
prevent length extension attacks. The SHA256 hashing algorithm, like all hashes constructed
using the Merkle-Damgård paradigm, is vulnerable to this attack."
06:51
TL;DR: given a hash that is composed of a string with an unknown prefix, an attacker can append to the string and produce a new hash that still has the unknown prefix.
07:02
Never thought why it's double hashed even if single hash is supposedly already secure?
Z
07:04
Zack
The entire bitcoin network over its history since the Genesis block has only broken something like 85 bits out of the 256 bits of the sha output.

Blockchain mining can't get big enough to break this in the next century.
We all probably need to switch from Sha256 earlier than then for other reasons.
SS
07:04
Spike Spiegel
Length extension is different then birthday attack
Z
07:04
Zack
In reply to this message
We made our headers small enough to fit inside a single loop. So there is no prefix optimization possible in amoveo any more.
This was a hard fork update.
SS
07:09
Spike Spiegel
👍
Z
07:14
Zack
How about an amoveo smart contract optimized for anonymizing who owns which Veo.

You want a long hash locked contract that snakes through multiple servers, but you don't want to re-use any identifying information between different server contracts.
That way, as long as one of the servers deletes the old smart contract data, it becomes impossible to de-anonymize you.
SS
07:15
Spike Spiegel
that's literal 2137 cyberpunk 👌
Z
07:23
Zack
basically like one of those old email anonymizer systems, but for payments.
SS
07:25
Spike Spiegel
That's cool but IHMO most important thing would be making core features & betting easier for not technical users
07:26
Right now very nice feature is governance over supply but there is very little nonspeculative demand (measured as $$ locked in bets / channels )
Z
07:28
Zack
being able to participate in these financial contracts anonymously might be more popular.
I think legal risks could be making people afraid to participate.
OK
07:28
O K
Lol it's definitely UI
07:28
/UX
SS
07:33
Spike Spiegel
Relayers are liable in Ethereum / ZRX ecosystem - who would be liable in Amoveo? ( as there is no centralised orderbook )
Z
07:33
Zack
Amoveo derivatives markets have centralized orderbooks
SS
07:34
Spike Spiegel
Huh, this makes it hard for market operators as they are running broker services
Z
07:35
Zack
It is trustless.
So I think the traditional rules about brokers shouldn't apply here
SS
07:40
Spike Spiegel
Who will speculatively fund Market maker for bets (UX / marketing / developers etc) if it cannot be done with compliance with the law (VC capital cannot invest in illegal things or not do due diligence as it's forbidden due to LP investment agreement ) - maybe market making is profitable but if there is no UX / marketing / lobbying / etc - there won't be large # of users
07:41
Chicken and egg problem: anarchy is better and more profitable for people but changing the state from statism into anarchy may not be profitable for people actually changing things
Z
07:41
Zack
plenty of people live in parts of the world where this is legal.
07:42
if we can operate at 1/100th the cost of competitors, and operate at scales bigger than any competitor, I think we can overcome these legal issues.
SS
07:43
Spike Spiegel
And if it's legal then there are alternative solutions which are more efficient or with better margins / distribution
07:43
One can write better version of facebook - but it's hard to fight economic moats - and market liquidity is very "moaty"
Z
07:44
Zack
Trustful systems are inherently expensive.
You have to pay the trusted person to not scam you.
You have to pay for a legal system to enforce the rules.

Amoveo trustless contracts avoid all these costs to provide the best possible price.
SS
07:46
Spike Spiegel
Is amoveo providing me with ability to buy into SP500 cheaper then State Street Global Advisors?
07:47
Zero fee exchange isn't cheaper then high fee exchange if the former doesn't have any liqudity
07:49
Is perfect market / competition still functioning if there is no market?
Z
07:50
Zack
The people running exchanges like "State Street Global Advisors", they are in competition with each other, and they look at the available technology to decide how to make their product work.

I probably wont run the biggest market for the same reason I don't run the best explorer, or biggest mining pool.
SS
07:50
Spike Spiegel
State Street Global Advisors is ETF provider
07:51
I mean I can buy some Amazon shares / options right now - but since nobody is offering such thing via Amoveo yet I cannot use Amoveo for that
Z
07:52
Zack
if you wanted to launch a new server for people to trade Amazon shares, Amoveo would be a great tool to make your service provably secure.
07:52
we even have all open source tools for this
SS
07:54
Spike Spiegel
It would be unprofitable if there isn't enough organic demand for buying amazon shares that way
Disclaimer: I'm not interested right now in building such things but rather I'm interested as a consumer of those
07:54
So it's like Amazon Shop with empty inventory - cool network and technology but without sellers
Z
07:57
Zack
Most people are excluded from financial tools like this.
Amoveo allows anyone in the world to buy exposure to the price of Amazon shares.
We have a much bigger potential user base in comparison to markets that use legal enforcement for security.
07:58
It will catch on exponentially, we just need to get the first batch of users comfortable
SS
08:00
Spike Spiegel
How veo is going to achieve that? What about GUI tools / wallets so people can use it the same way people use torrents today?
08:00
My pain is that people are buying (good) but there is very little conversion rate from buying into using
08:02
A proper way to build 2-sided marketplace is to subsidise one side (like Uber did) until liquidity is enough to suck more users into due to network effect
Z
08:03
Zack
I don't have all the answers, but I try to keep my mind open to the possibilities.
There are a lot of competent people involved with Amoveo besides me, and they all have their own ideas as well.
SS
08:05
Spike Spiegel
It doesn't require your input - just looking for somebody who is brave enough to run a market
09:37
Deleted Account
hi guyz. i need some information abous amoveo maximal number of offchain transaction per second
09:37
it is not infinite of course
OK
09:37
O K
Off chain?
09:38
Deleted Account
transactions when channels are used
Z
09:39
Zack
I could have 2 private keys on the same computer, then they would be capable of signing channel contract updates so fast. Probably hundreds of thousands of times per second.

But if we are on opposite sides of the planet, then it would be a little slower. Each channel can only update as fast as 2 http requests.
09:43
Deleted Account
that should i answer if somebody asks me: hundreds of thousands?
09:43
which estimation is more realistic?
OK
09:44
O K
In reply to this message
You should answer "as fast as the network and the computers processing"
09:44
Deleted Account
it doesn't tell anything for noob
09:45
and i want simple quantititative estimations for noobs
OK
09:45
O K
You're asking "how many files can I download at once"
09:45
How would you answer that?
Z
09:46
Zack
someday maybe we will use a faster protocol than http.
Then we could update the channel even faster.
09:47
It is about the same as refreshing a very tiny webpage.
OK
09:47
O K
🖼
Z
09:50
Zack
you could have a dozen channels with a dozen different channel servers, and be updating them all concurrently.
Then you could have 12x more updates per second.
OK
09:50
O K
In reply to this message
"dozens"
Z
09:51
Zack
yeah, or even dozens
09:52
I wonder what person needs to update their smart contract so often?
09:53
Deleted Account
I speak not about single user but the whole network
Z
09:53
Zack
maybe they put an entire video game into a smart contract, and it updates with some frame-rate, like 30 frames per second.
09:53
Deleted Account
how many transactions are possible there at present capacity?
Z
09:54
Zack
that is kind of like asking how many people can update the web page in their browser per second.
There are many servers, and many users, and they work concurrently without bothering each other.

Similarly, in amoveo there will be many channel nodes and many users will channels. They can all operate concurrently without bothering each others.
09:58
Maybe a better way of thinking of it is "what is the cost of smart contracts on amoveo?"
Currently the governance fee is about 150000 satoshis per tx. that is 1.5 miliVEO. If VEO is $200, then 1.5 mVEO is $0.30.
For a channel you usually need only 2 tx, one to open, and one to close. So it is about $0.60 for the tx fees for one channel right now.
You also need to pay the server for the inconvenience of locking their money in a channel with you, but that is less expensive if they don't need to lock up much. for example if you are only expecting to spend, not receive.
10:01
Deleted Account
well, are there any historical data of maximal number of transactions per second?
10:01
real
OK
10:01
O K
It would be something absurd, like 0.000001 tps
10:02
But you're asking about potential not historical
10:02
Deleted Account
i mean not average but peak number
OK
10:03
O K
Again, not that many have probably happened, even taking out times of none
10:04
If a noob friend asked you "how many files can I download at once" what would you tell him?
10:05
Or Zack's example "how many people can update a website in their browser at once" ?
10:06
Or look for answers pertaining to BTC lightning network and use those numbers
10:08
It mentions visa achieved 47k tps
SS
10:11
Spike Spiegel
Well - people are saying that bitcoin isn't scaleable on-chain yet right now one can send coins below 16 sat
10:33
Deleted Account
O K, [19.11.18 12:05]
Or Zack's example "how many people can update a website in their browser at once" ?

I am not a developer, but developer should estimate such things cause it is useful for marketing
12:48
Deleted Account
thank everyone for answers, however, i have an additional question
12:49
Zack, [19.11.18 11:58]
Maybe a better way of thinking of it is "what is the cost of smart contracts on amoveo?"
Currently the governance fee is about 150000 satoshis per tx. that is 1.5 miliVEO. If VEO is $200, then 1.5 mVEO is $0.30.
For a channel you usually need only 2 tx, one to open, and one to close. So it is about $0.60 for the tx fees for one channel right now.
You also need to pay the server for the inconvenience of locking their money in a channel with you, but that is less expensive if they don't need to lock up much. for example if you are only expecting to spend, not receive.

But smart contract requires the running of oracle. The price for question oracle is 0.02 VEO, ie $10
S
12:50
Sy
the fees have been voted down and probably will again
12:50
Deleted Account
what is todays price?
S
12:51
Sy
0.033 btc i think
12:51
around 170 with btc dropped
MF
12:55
Mr Flintstone
200 I would say
12:55
veoscan.io
12:55
or 195
S
13:00
Sy
preev tells me 0.035 are less
13:01
ah no, 192
13:01
Deleted Account
$192 for running question oracle? sounds absolutely NOT cheap
13:03
Zack said 0.02 VEO. therefore it can't be over 10
MF
13:04
Mr Flintstone
it’s like 4 dollars for a question oracle
13:04
right now
13:04
0.022
13:05
governance oracles are around 70 dollars
13:16
Deleted Account
anyway, the price for smart-contract is much higher than 60 cents
m
13:45
mm
Great discussion. We should put these calculations into documentation.
SS
14:26
Spike Spiegel
BTW cool but cruel thing would be creating markets betting on startup failure:
90% startups fail but founders and fans may believe that startups have 50/50 chance of succeeding. So one can have VC subsidized prediction market for startup success instead of early stage due diligence
14:28
"Any market, like a poker table, requires sources of disagreements and profits. Without a sucker at the table, why participate in the market? Remember, if you can’t spot the sucker in your first half hour at the table, then you are the sucker."
14:29
"If your market doesn’t draw natural interest and offer sources of disagreement, to create a foundation of participation and liquidity, or at least bribe the participants with explicit subsidies, there’s nothing to build on and no interest."
14:32
> In financial economics, the no-trade theorem states that (1) if markets are in a state of efficient equilibrium, (2) if there are no noise traders or other non-rational interferences with prices, and (3) if the structure by which traders or potential traders acquire information is itself common knowledge, then even though some traders may possess private information, none of them will be in a position to profit from it.
14:33
1) Since Amoveo markets are very efficient
2) No suckers
3) Amoveo can only work with things that will become common knowledge

Thus nobody can profit unless there would be non-stop inflow of "suckers" to bet in random directions with or without insider info
Z
15:57
Zack
Derivatives aren't for investing or profit.

Derivatives are for hedging and for selling information.

Many people are willing to pay a small amount now to avoid the risk of losing more later.
15:58
A person doesn't buy health insurance hoping to get rich by catching a terrible disease.

Health insurance is a hedge, so if you do get sick, it isn't so bad.

Financial derivatives are like this.
S
16:39
Sy
btw 0.035 are 184$ now 😝 down down down it goes!
N
16:40
NM$L
btc dump..
S
16:41
Sy
im wondering how many of the current top100 will still be there in a year
16:41
i think all icos who cant deliver are dying in 2019
N
16:45
NM$L
veo will be top50 in a year
M⛏
17:00
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
"allows anyone in the world", sorry but most people in this world are not technical users. Without great UX, doesn't matter how good the tech is if most can't use it.
AK
17:15
A K
In reply to this message
to that I have my fav CMC feature )
M
22:38
MH
In reply to this message
Interesting!
20 November 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
05:02
Mr Flintstone
difficulty ATH for amoveo
05:04
53k th per block. highest it ever got before was 46 and that was before the China debacle
05:09
can’t tell if this is a good thing or a bad thing lmao
Z
05:15
Zack
we have a lower block reward now too
MF
05:25
Mr Flintstone
broad selloff in coins contributing to this id think
Z
05:42
Zack
Right. If other blockchains are paying less, then that makes amoveo more profitable in comparison
Deleted invited Deleted Account
[
06:14
[Riki]
B
13:55
Ben
think that are the first batch od FPGA Miner
AK
14:03
A K
Why, so many gpu miners don't mine veo yet
14:16
Deleted Account
I think ETH dropping from €190 to €120 might be part of the explanation
AK
14:26
A K
ETH hashrate since September is relatively stable
14:26
no drops this week for sure
14:33
still 10M 1060-equiv are mining ETH happily
14:54
Deleted Account
Would a drop in ETH hashrate even be visible for this increase in VEO hashrate?
B
15:25
Ben
no
15:25
veo is to small
M
15:36
MKUltra
In reply to this message
I’m still making money on my AMD RX470s for ETH
AK
15:44
A K
In reply to this message
this 120 TH/s spike is like 0.1M of 1060-equiv, so 1% of ETH hashrate
15:44
so no, won't be visible )
15:44
i was just saying that most of ETH hashrate didn't bother to look for smth better
m
15:49
mm
My another security research, this time on attacking Amoveo mining pools https://patternsdynamics.com/post/amoveo-mining-pool-duplicated-shares/
AK
15:51
A K
niiiice!
SS
15:58
Spike Spiegel
hashrate is lagging indicator of the price
Martina Long invited Martina Long
SS
16:26
Spike Spiegel
Are you from Primitive Ventures? @martinalong10
16:26
With @wheatpond ‏?
ML
16:27
Martina Long
Yep!
CM
16:28
C M
In reply to this message
You rock))
ML
16:28
Martina Long
Will move this to PM so we don't spam the chat haha
Sergey Zubkov invited Sergey Zubkov
Denis Borsh invited Denis Borsh
m
21:19
mm
Zack are scalar and governance oracles described somewhere? I see only example api calls in docs with super short descriptions
MF
21:53
Mr Flintstone
what kind of description are you looking for?
m
22:35
mm
Real life examples?
22:50
Deleted Account
amoveo/oracles_overview.md at master · zack-bitcoin/amoveo · GitHub
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/blog_posts/oracles_overview.md
22:50
This?
22:51
Some use cases you can find here
Z
23:27
Zack
You could ask the Oracle questions.
The Oracle can only answer our question if the answer is public knowledge before the Oracle needs to be closed.
23:28
So you can ask about a sporting event. Just tell the Oracle to stay open until after the sporting event finishes.
21 November 2018
AK
01:01
A K
Folks, there has been a doc with comparison of veo vs competitors
01:01
somewhere in the depths of github )
01:01
can't find it, halp
AK
01:02
A K
yay perfect, tnx
01:03
re sharding in Veo. it's still only a concept right?
01:03
no one bothered to implement?
01:04
(cos no need)
Z
01:04
Zack
We found a bug that prevents sharding.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/tree/tree-fix/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus
Here is the branch where I am working on a fix.
AK
01:05
A K
ah ok, but after that it will be up to the node operator to set up, or will be enable by default?
Z
01:05
Zack
we need sharding to scale to everyone in the world.
AK
01:05
A K
not sure if the latter is possible (enabling by default)
Z
01:06
Zack
I am thinking it will be a variable in the config file.
So you can choose to store everything, or nothing, or just part.
AK
01:11
A K
ah ok
01:12
recently learned about Graphene, really cool way to minimize block propagation bandwidth
01:13
not sure if Veo would need it with sharding and potentially MW
Z
01:15
Zack
It seems like if we use MW without rangeproofs, then we wont be able to safely collapse the payments together. So it seems like MW isn't yet useful technology for Amoveo.
01:16
I think the only benefit of adding MW without the rangeproofs is to make it impossible to counterfeit tokens, even if there is a bug in the software.
01:21
In reply to this message
We already have a very efficient protocol for sharing blocks. Each person only downloads each block once. It can't get more efficient than that.

Trying to maintain C++ software to implement a block gossip protocol sounds like my worst nightmare.
AK
01:21
A K
Grapheme doesn't have to be in C++ though ?
01:22
Pretty sure we can implement bloom filters in Erlang
Z
01:24
Zack
Our current protocol is already as optimized as is possible.
There are many areas where blockchain technology needs to be improved, this is not one of them.
The best way to share blocks is a problem that is very easy to optimally solve.
AK
01:25
A K
Yeah, at veo current tx rate it's not a problem definitely
01:25
And with channels might never be
01:26
Just a cool way to avoid transferring the whole block when mined
01:26
Saving 90%+ of bandwidth
Z
01:26
Zack
bloom filters are for trying to make SPV nodes in UTXO blockchains right?
It is a hack to try and make a half-way decent light node. Still not as secure as a full node.

Amoveo was designed for light nodes from day 1. We use accounts in a merkel tree, so it is easy for the light node to immediately know it's balance without a doubt. As secure as a full node.
And we don't need any crazy bloom filters or wacky extra datastructures.
AK
01:27
A K
In Graphene, bloom filters and Inverse Bloom Lookup Tables are used to avoid sending all txs with a mined block
01:28
A miner only propagates a filter with txs
01:28
A node matches txs from its local mempool and requests missing ones
Z
01:29
Zack
we get that property out of our headers
01:30
headers are shared by pushing, and then you download the rest of the block by pulling.
AK
01:30
A K
So a miner never sends full txs?
01:30
Wow great
01:30
Just wow )
01:30
Well designed
Z
01:31
Zack
currently after receiving the headers, the other nodes are downloading the block with the txs.
AK
01:32
A K
Ah ok, so if ever a problem we now know it can be compacted 10x
Z
01:33
Zack
a block is only like 1 megabyte. And a mining pool doesn't find all the blocks.
You only have to send the block to like 2 or 3 other nodes.

So we are talking about like 5 megabytes of bandwidth per hour.
Is this really worth optimizing?
AK
01:33
A K
Now definitely not )
Z
01:33
Zack
1 megabyte block is if we were bigger than bitcoin.
S
01:34
Shaun
Bloom filters are just like hash based lookups, theyre pretty efficient and if designed properly very useful
Z
01:34
Zack
currently blocks are like 10 kilobytes.
01:35
even if bloom filters are efficient and useful for what they were designed for, that doesn't mean we should stick a bunch of C++ code from Steemit into Amoveo.
S
01:36
Shaun
That's a whole other discussion for sure
AK
01:36
A K
In reply to this message
I think there are two Graphenes lol maybe
01:38
Or is it the same one hmm
01:38
Anyway it def doesnt require c++
Z
01:40
Zack
Rewriting a c++ gossip protocol into erlang sounds awful.
Especially since this would only save a mining pool 5 megabytes of bandwidth per hour, even if our network was as big as bitcoin's.

A bunch of work for practically zero benefit.

We are talking about investing a month of my time to build a hard fork like this.
01:41
No no not asking you
Z
01:52
Zack
this guy's idea is that if we already have the txs sitting in the mempool, that we shouldn't have to download them again with the block.
At best, this cuts the bandwidth cost of a mining pool to stay in sync by a factor of 2.

But 99% of a mining pool's bandwidth is dealing with all the miners sending in their work.
Reducing the 1% of bandwidth that is for keeping the blockchain in sync doesn't really matter for a mining pool.

If you are running a full node by itself without a mining pool, then you don't need to maintain a tx pool to stay in sync, so this upgrade wont matter for you either.

It isn't clear who benefits from something like this.
01:58
I think videos like this happen because there are lots of mathematicians who want to get involved with blockchain, and so they look for any way to connect the math they studied to blockchain.
And BitShares has lots of money, they want to hire anyone who has prestige to talk about and stick technology into bitshares. That way more people will think that bitshares is high class.
AK
02:06
A K
Bitshares is POS and this video is about BTC though
Z
02:11
Zack
Hashrate is more than 400% what it was 1 month ago. I guess our price is up 300%, so it isn't that much of a surprise.
02:17
43 people have searched for the term "request_frequency" on the amoveo github.
02:17
oh, only 12 people, but they searched 43 times.
Z
02:47
Zack
It seems like people are pretty nervous to run an amoveo derivatives market, because of the legal implications.

I am thinking we need a way for 2 people using light nodes to be able to make a channel between them, and make some custom bets directly together.
02:49
We wont be able to tell how much betting is happening.
OK
02:50
O K
In reply to this message
What evidence are you basing this on?
Z
02:51
Zack
people have mentioned it a few times in DM and on the forums
OK
02:52
O K
I've seen a lot more mention about ui/ux than laws
Z
02:53
Zack
Im thinking of making a slashing channel server.
You make a channel with it, and give it small payments along with channel state from other Amoveo channels.
If the server has an opportunity to, it uses that channel state to make slash transactions.

This way if someone tries closing a channel with you at the wrong state, they will be prevented.
AK
02:53
A K
well, after Etherdelta I think amovebook stopped updating for some time and now has a US person disclaimer
MF
03:06
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
we will know how much is locked up at least
CR
03:21
Carlos Rene
In reply to this message
I've thought about the same thing in general for crypto. Also, it might be good idea to add communication through TOR and end-to-end encrypted data packages
03:22
In reply to this message
Is there a tutorial on this? Seems very interesting
AK
03:31
A K
ToR or I2P
MF
03:34
Mr Flintstone
I wonder if it’s against the law for me to enter into a swap against myself for educational purposes
03:36
In reply to this message
you mean hosting the market? or direct p2p contracts zack mentioned
CR
04:08
Carlos Rene
In reply to this message
I was referring to the market but now that you mention it I think both. Heck, all communications would benefit from the added network security
MF
04:22
Mr Flintstone
To host a market first run a full node
04:22
then go here
04:23
api:new_market(OID, Expires, Period).
04:23
OID is the identifier of the oracle on the blockchain
04:23
period is how many blocks traders have to wait till bets get matched in a batch. Expires is the height at which betting stops.
04:24
this lets you host a binary options market
[
04:53
[Riki]
It would be so nice to have a video tutorial of these steps. Just simply someone recording his screen while setting up (hosting) such market
05:05
Does a certain luck factor in mining contribute to significant hourly hashrate spikes/drops? Hashrate today is ranging 60-120ths
05:08
These quick spikes, which sometimes last for 1 block only, as a result increase the difficulty. Yet, it could be that no new miners joined the network but the luck factor is the only reason. In such case, an increase is difficulty is not "justified"?
MF
05:11
Mr Flintstone
one of the trade offs of a more responsive difficulty adjustment algorithm is that variance (luck) increases. compared to the more conservative btc-style adjustment
05:12
In reply to this message
Agreed
[
05:14
[Riki]
Right. What if the diff adjustment ignores variances which dont last longer than 2 or 3 blocks? In that case, hashrate spikes resulting from luck would be ignored, i.e. not affecting the difficulty retargeting. Maybe the result of such tweak would not yield particular benefit, but the retargetting would be slightly smoother and more realistic (ignore luck factor).
05:16
it is a minor critic coming from a salty miner lol
M⛏
05:25
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
Animation
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S
05:33
Sy
looking at the hashrate over just a few blocks is pointless
05:33
In reply to this message
the avg line is moving more accurately, one lucky streak and you get stupid numbers like 120 th
05:33
i dont see a point in displaying at all tbh, it mostly confuses ppl
[
05:34
[Riki]
In reply to this message
yeah but the stupid number / lucky streak affects the difficulty, from what i see
MF
05:35
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
I think it’s a 20 block lookback using exponential weighting? could be wrong it’s been a while
[
05:37
[Riki]
In reply to this message
oh ok if so. looking at amoveo.tools, it seems like there is no weighting. whenever the hashrate for a single block is above/or beyond the retargetting treshhold, the diff changes
05:38
maybe i dont read the chart correctly
S
05:39
Sy
its jumping around the target diff just as expected
[
05:39
[Riki]
05:39
i dont see any weighting effect here. diff adjusts immediately.
AK
05:42
A K
Diff is green, estimate is black
05:42
Diff is lagging
05:43
(cos of the bounds )
05:44
Estimate is exponentially weighted , to see the smoothing in it we'd need to plot a 1 block "instant" estimate of hashrate
05:44
It'd be all over the place so it's usually never plotted
05:44
Too much variance to be useful
[
05:45
[Riki]
that makes sense, ty
Z
05:52
Zack
In reply to this message
Haha
05:56
In reply to this message
This is the thinking that lead to using exponentially weighted averaging, and ignoring everything inside some bounds.

I think it is working very well. The difficulty quickly, and it isn't reacting to random fluctuations in hashrate.
05:57
In reply to this message
I think you are reading the chart wrong.
The black line isn't the difficulty.
[
05:57
[Riki]
i know that.
Z
05:58
Zack
In reply to this message
Notice how the black line is moving somewhat continuously. It's not a scatter plot.
That is because it is calculated from exponential weighting.

Ewah = exponentially weighted average hashrate.
[
05:59
[Riki]
i did not capture the ew movement of the black line by looking at it initially
Z
06:00
Zack
The block time on the second chart is basically a scatter plot. A little odd that he connects the dots.
OK
08:07
O K
In reply to this message
🙌
EA
10:26
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Agreed
10:29
Any good reading out there about what kind of questions we can get answered using Amoveo?
Z
10:30
Zack
you can ask it about anything that we will all be able to easily agree upon before the resolution date.
OK
10:30
O K
In reply to this message
There is a great doc about this on the github
EA
10:32
Eric Arsenault
What about questions related to say: future revenue generated?
Z
10:33
Zack
What is "revenue" in the context of Amoveo?
Tx fees? they are set by the governance mechanism, hopefully they stay low.
10:33
You can make a dominant assurance contract in Amoveo to raise money to create a public good.
EA
10:34
Eric Arsenault
Say for example, a bet on the future revenue of a company
Z
10:35
Zack
If a company publishes numbers about itself regularly, then you could bet on what numbers they will publish.
You could bet on their share price.
MF
11:18
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
you could do a scalar market on reported revenue between lowest and highest analyst estimates
11:22
basically a CFD on revenue instead of a CFD on share price
11:23
if this market is public, the price will pretty directly tell us about the market’s expectation for the company’s reported revenue
11:26
if you really badly want to know the answer but there isn’t much interest, I think it makes sense to provide lots of liquidity in your market to attract people that know the answers
T
13:06
Tromp
Anyone from amoveo.exchange online?
S
13:34
Sebsebzen
@demiculus
S
15:13
Sebsebzen
@guideltoshi what do you think of balloonhash algo
J
15:28
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
@sebsebzen you probably want to ask @johntromp
S
15:33
Sebsebzen
haha yes
15:56
😖
S
16:53
Sebsebzen
We need to get on CMC asap
S
16:55
Sy
cmc just lost 50 billion +, i doubt it would affect veo that much, at least not now
S
16:57
Sebsebzen
there are also multiple coins with same ticker
B
17:02
Ben
if they are already on CMC party is over anyway.
17:02
first come first serve
AK
17:03
A K
they are not
B
17:05
Ben
then we should indeed push for it.
T
17:58
Topab
I do not think you can claim a ticker, there are fewprojects sharing ticker
WL
19:06
Wang Lion
who can give me a exchange address
19:06
i dont know price now
B
19:15
Ben
amoveo.exchange or qtrade.io
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
20:56
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
great that a scam is using our ticker
20:56
I wonder how many ppl heard of veo then got dissuaded when they saw this trash
AK
20:57
A K
for now, google search leads to Zack's github
20:57
this shittoken is nowhere to be found
MF
20:59
Mr Flintstone
if we want veo to get on cmc why don’t we incentivize it
21:03
ask yourself the question what % of your veo would you give up to get on cmc
21:04
then take that amount and bet “no” on the end of year CMC market
AK
21:04
A K
but the market has expired no?
21:04
i think it was till nov 19
MF
21:04
Mr Flintstone
there are hundreds of decision makers that influence VEO being on Cmc
Z
21:04
Zack
Make sure to call it "Amoveo" when introducing new people. Not "veo".
MF
21:04
Mr Flintstone
no it is until end of year
21:05
unless I missed something
AK
21:06
A K
21:06
that's the only one I saw
MF
21:06
Mr Flintstone
ahh I see. looks like amoveobook made their market expiration nov 19, right
AK
21:06
A K
and that made it pointless )
MF
21:07
Mr Flintstone
if someone wants to make hundreds of dollars hosting this market up front they should start one
Z
21:07
Zack
I think we launched an Oracle for this already
MF
21:07
Mr Flintstone
we did but it looks like no markets are active
[
21:30
[Riki]
In reply to this message
I wonder if that is due to legal or ui/ux issues 😋 ( i have to tag @potat_o lol )
OK
21:34
O K
In reply to this message
Maybe we should open a market and find out
AK
21:36
A K
catch-22 )
[
21:36
[Riki]
In reply to this message
One 1 category of people will (be able to) vote 😂😂😂
GAhmetO invited GAhmetO
G
21:44
GAhmetO
In reply to this message
What is requirements and goals to build it?
MF
21:55
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
look here
21:55
@Umutku2
22:05
you’ll also need to lock up some veo
22 November 2018
00:41
Deleted Account
Abbreviation is not unique. Anyways like Zack said, just always tell people about amoveo not veo
00:45
Also we have to apply to some of these exchanges with amoveo:
https://coinmarketcap.com/exchanges/volume/24-hour/all/
and when we pick at least 2 exchanges and help them also with the implementation. Then we can also apply for adding amoveo to cmc if they will not list it anyways for themself
00:51
224 exchanges... should be easy. Lets pick some Exchanges together. Did you guys already discussed the application for binance? As far as i know they removed the fees for the listing?
AK
01:05
A K
In reply to this message
Here
M
01:15
Minieep21
So Zack needs to apply for it
CR
01:32
Carlos Rene
Are Amoveo smart contracts Turing Complete?
Z
01:33
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes. Chalang has functions with recursion.
CR
01:34
Carlos Rene
Awesome, is there a tutorial for a simple smart contract to learn?
Z
01:35
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang

This is the repository with the erlang version of the VM. It includes a couple compilers for different languages, and sample code for the different compilers.
01:35
All smart contracts in production were written in the forth like language.
01:36
But I think the lisp compiler has a lot of potential.
CR
01:36
Carlos Rene
Sticker
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LB
02:23
Luke B
In reply to this message
Market was made when block times were way off of 10 mins
M⛏
02:42
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
Interesting
MF
02:42
Mr Flintstone
block times have been 10 min for months now tho
02:42
the cmc oracle is a recent oracle too
02:42
I think they just made a mistake
M⛏
02:43
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
So did someone just set it up incorrectly
02:43
Let's make a new one, I'm sure there are other people that would throw VEO on the no side
MF
02:45
Mr Flintstone
yep. someone should host the market. you’ll probably get 10-20 dollars out of me at least. I’m sure others would throw in too
AK
02:45
Alex K
In reply to this message
+
MF
02:45
Mr Flintstone
just plz don’t make the channel fee ridiculously high
02:46
In reply to this message
this is in fee terms. I plan to bet much more veo than that
JM
02:51
J M
The market expiration date was a mistake. We'll make a new market and fix it
MF
02:51
Mr Flintstone
cool, thanks Johnny
Z
02:51
Zack
I think I already made an oracle for this
MF
02:54
Mr Flintstone
Yes the oracle is live
03:00
I wonder what the true odds are of veo being added to cmc by year end
03:00
I am thinking like 25-40%?
LB
03:06
Luke B
In reply to this message
I'm going to bet lower
MF
03:18
Mr Flintstone
let’s assume 15%
03:19
if we all bet on “no” at a 85% probability and someone takes our bets but we don’t get listed on CMC, we will each make around 18% extra veo
03:20
if we do get listed on cmc, the person to take our bets basically 6x their veo
Z
03:50
Zack
So if I hold these 2 beliefs:
There is a 15% chance we get listed.
If we get listed, the price will double.

Then what price would I be willing to pay to buy shares in this market?
0.3 or 0.7 right?
MF
03:53
Mr Flintstone
good point. not all of us live in a world where the only thing that matters is number of veo. some people care about such things as USD or EUR
03:56
I think you’re right. you would be willing to buy at 0.3. but this can’t be linear right. since a 10x in price would mean you’re willing to buy for 1.5
03:56
and you can’t pay more than 1
M⛏
05:02
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
wishful thinking that a CMC listing will cause price to double
Z
05:02
Zack
sure, I just used a number so the example would be concrete. Like Mr Flintstone said, it isn't exactly 30%, but it is near there.
05:23
Deleted Account
Depends on whether you think the market will affect listing on CMC. If you think yes then it doesnt matter if the bet is wasted if you are holding veo. If you dont think CMC cares much, then best to place at the real odds/price what you think.
05:26
Because I dont believe CMC will cash in on this market, I may be able to match some bets at a price better than the real odds would indicate :-) This in turn will make CMC’s profit much less should they decide to grab the money in the market
MF
05:27
Mr Flintstone
it isn’t cmc that needs to
05:27
any exchange on cmc can list veo
05:28
or qtrade or amoveo exchange get listed on cmc
Z
05:28
Zack
You have the right conclusion, but your logic is a little wrong.
You can only do this if you ting that CMC will list us, then you can bet that they will list us.
MF
05:28
Mr Flintstone
there are hundreds of people that can profit from this market
05:29
Deleted Account
I can bet that we will get listed, but the price will probably be cheaper than the likelyhood of that happening, as people are making a honeypot for anyone who could make it happen
MF
05:30
Mr Flintstone
you should bet that we won’t get listed if you want us to get listed
Z
05:30
Zack
right. this is why a dominant assurance contract would be much more profitable for CMC than a normal market
05:30
Deleted Account
Of course if you were 99% certain veo would get listed, you’d match all open orders at any price, I wouldnt do that
MF
05:30
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
but a dominant assurance contract doesn’t make this profitable for the hundreds of other decision makers that could list veo
05:30
Deleted Account
Is there some mechanism to make sure I dont take advantage of this?
MF
05:30
Mr Flintstone
cmc can either add amoveo exchange or qtrade, that’s it
05:31
if any small exchange on cmc like tradeogre lists veo then we’re on cmc
05:31
Deleted Account
I guess what Im saying is that if you place bets on this, dont overdo the price...
MF
05:32
Mr Flintstone
if I know there is a 100% chance veo is going to be on cmc, I don’t care what price I bet on
05:32
Deleted Account
exactly
05:32
So place the bet at price 0.5 or something
MF
05:32
Mr Flintstone
I am more than happy to lose some veo to find out we are going to be listed
05:38
Deleted Account
Me to. Even though, we will get listed eventually, so the Q is rather would we pay to hurry it up?
Z
05:39
Zack
Getting more people betting is important.
If this is something we can get people to bet on, then we should do it.
Anything the community has a shared interest in is a good topic.
MF
05:41
Mr Flintstone
any easy way to tell how much a server has locked up?
Z
05:42
Zack
You can see its public key. So look up the balance of that pubkey.
MF
05:42
Mr Flintstone
do you have to look in the channel state?
05:42
where do you see the pubkey
05:43
oh I guess you could look at the channel tx on chain?
Z
05:43
Zack
Oh, maybe I didn't add it to the Explorer or light node.
But is in the external api.
05:43
The light node requests it a bunch to make txs and stuff, but maybe it is never displayed.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
11:23
Topab
I will bet some veo too on cmc listing
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
BS
20:38
Bo Smubo
What's the total hash rate now
[
20:40
[Riki]
amoveo.tools
22:14
Deleted Account
hi guys
22:14
what is current miner's reward? still 1 VEO?
22:15
and where to check this
OK
22:28
O K
Top of amoveopool.com front page
22:32
Deleted Account
thanks!
GJ
23:10
Guillermo Joya
Happy Thanksgiving Everyone
iBitHub Admin invited iBitHub Admin
23 November 2018
B
00:03
Ben
Happy Turkey Day ;)
AK
00:34
A K
Hey Opsjenar, I missed your trolling!
J
00:38
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
Sticker
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😏, 17.9 KB
AK
01:00
A K
shite, another one (
Z
01:05
Zack
There is no connection between cryptocurrency and fixing pollution. They are destined to fail.
AK
01:07
A K
🤷🏻‍♂️
[
01:08
[Riki]
In reply to this message
Who is they?
Z
01:09
Zack
Veiocoin. AK just linked to them.
[
01:10
[Riki]
Ah ok
ES
01:11
Ed Sonic
The ticker is the problem- hope the fail happens fast
Z
01:16
Zack
It looks like they did an ico, and then just disappeared.
There is no way to trade their token, as far as I can see.
01:22
https://www.trackico.io/ico/veio/#activity

Looks like they have almost 0 followers.
The only way I can imagine they sold so many tokens in an ico is by buying their own tokens, which is a kind of scam.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
01:55
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
big incentive to do this in premines. especially if you can pull eth out before it’s over
01:56
then they get to use market liquidity as a piggy bank
Z
01:56
Zack
Or by getting short term debt from an eth whale.
MF
01:56
Mr Flintstone
yeah
03:14
Deleted Account
They are just surfing buzzwords
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Федор Розанов invited Федор Розанов
A
13:36
Aries
Welcome
Deleted invited Deleted Account
SS
17:34
Spike Spiegel
BTW is CMC listing betting operational?
17:35
MF
20:12
Mr Flintstone
Johnny
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
24 November 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
?
02:14
🅰͢͢͢🅽🅳🆁🅴🅸
Девчонки ,вас откуда сюда принесло?Дайте ссылку
AK
02:20
A K
"Girls, where did you get here? Give a link" according to google
02:20
they sure look like bots
02:20
check the usernames
AK
02:40
A K
well if they send pics
02:40
i might reconsider
Noah Pollock invited Noah Pollock
Yulia M invited Yulia M
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
SS
15:20
Spike Spiegel
How to understand current odds?
15:20
Z
15:22
Zack
Practically no volume
SS
15:25
Spike Spiegel
What does 0.15 price means
15:26
Price 0.5 = 50% chances?
Z
15:26
Zack
That is an open order betting that Amoveo will not get listed.

They are betting at a price of 15:85
15:27
So if you are willing to pay more than 85 for a chance to win 100, then you could match with that bet.
AK
15:28
A K
“to pay 85” and bet 1 veo = 0.85 * 1 VEO will be locked up?
15:28
with payouts 0; 1 ?
SS
15:29
Spike Spiegel
It would be much easier to bet on percentages directly
AK
15:29
A K
you can only bet on an outcome imo
15:30
how do you settle percentages? after the market is settled, there are no percentages
SS
15:30
Spike Spiegel
Current rate is 17,6% for probability of not listing or listing?
AK
15:30
A K
% probability is a side effect of the market design
15:30
listing
15:32
someone is buying “is listed” shares at 0.15, if listed they would cost 1
19:17
Deleted Account
If you are confused with price vs odds, decimal odds are 1/price. https://link.medium.com/z5CpJH0v6R https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-odds_betting
19:21
You can bet 0.1 Veo that it will be CMC listed and if you win you get 0.142 Veo back. to match the order at price 0.3 you must place a bet at price 0.7
19:24
Mind you, the orders are matched in batches, so others might try to do the same as you
Z
19:37
Zack
Higher odds means a higher price.
小贤Ethan invited 小贤Ethan
MF
21:20
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
looks like there is a reward of 0.6 veo for someone that knows that cmc is going to list veo. in order to claim this 0.6 veo, you would need to be willing to bet 0.3*(1/0.15) + 0.1*(1/0.2) + 0.1*(1/0.25) + 0.1*(1/0.3) = ~ 3 veo to match every “no” bet
21:20
so you need to be willing to bet 3 veo to make the 0.6
21:22
I.e “amount” column is potential return while the amount you need to stake to match the bet is amount*(1/price)
21:22
iirc
Deleted invited Deleted Account
25 November 2018
Z
03:33
Zack
We were planning on doing a massive dangerous hard fork, but I think I found a way to achieve the same goals without forking the protocol at all. Just by improving some algorithms.
03:34
This will enable sharding, and make syncing twice about twice as fast. An added benefit of this solution is that it works backwards for syncing blocks in our history.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
04:31
Zack
no, it isn't possible. we need a hard update.
[
04:35
[Riki]
In reply to this message
Animation
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300.2 KB
MF
04:42
Mr Flintstone
lol
AK
19:36
A K
i like this chat, no panic :)
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19:39
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19:52
have there been any discussions on how to implement trustless oracle feeds in veo?
19:52
like, with updates at least 1 time per second?
19:52
in MKR, feeds are not truly cryptoeconomically secure, I’m afraid
MF
20:48
Mr Flintstone
I have some ideas about this. I think some people call this the “short term oracle problem”
20:49
basically you will need to use the highest bid in a liquid synthetic futures market as the price feed
20:50
it isn’t sufficient to use last trade I don’t think since that can be Sybil’d
AK
20:51
A K
market outside of veo blockchain?
20:52
cos in veo markets are private afaik
MF
20:52
Mr Flintstone
hosted markets are currently public unless something is changed
20:53
there will always be “exchange traded” instruments and there will always be “OTC” instruments
AK
21:02
A K
In reply to this message
But not on a Blockchain?
21:03
It's up to the operator to make it public, and we'll have to believe the operator?
21:07
same applies to AE I guess, although I can't figure out how markets work in AE :( and Augur is different, all is transparetn on chain
AK
21:46
A K
also can't believe AE oracles are fully trustful by design :-/
MF
21:50
Mr Flintstone
you don’t have to trust liquidity if it’s out there. it’s a signed message
21:51
so anyone can take it
21:51
and validate it
AK
21:51
A K
In reply to this message
liquidity in a state channel market, you mean?
MF
21:51
Mr Flintstone
yeah
AK
21:52
A K
ok, but for others to see it a market participant has to sign and post it somewhere willingly?
21:52
or what am I missing?
MF
21:52
Mr Flintstone
right, it needs to be public
AK
21:52
A K
offchain
MF
21:52
Mr Flintstone
public exchanges are useful. not everything will be private
21:53
yeah
AK
21:53
A K
but signed
21:53
ok
21:53
how do I validate the liquidity amoveobook.com is showing?
MF
21:53
Mr Flintstone
you can use the light wallet, which does it for you
AK
21:53
A K
In reply to this message
i'd say more useful than private perhaps, absolutely
MF
21:53
Mr Flintstone
the explorer I think does it too
21:53
In reply to this message
More useful for the general public for sure
AK
21:54
A K
yeah great positive externalities
Z
21:54
Zack
You can't prove the contents of your channel to anyone. And they can't prove their channels contents to you
AK
21:54
A K
mm but can I check what amoveobook.com webpage is showing?
MF
21:56
Mr Flintstone
104.211.36.138
21:56
I’m pretty sure this is their channel node IP
AK
21:56
A K
ok but each connectin will have a separate channel though?
21:57
liquidity also gonna be separate?
MF
21:57
Mr Flintstone
104.211.36.138:8080/explorer.html
21:57
here you can see the order book
AK
21:57
A K
I do see it, nice
21:58
is it cryptographically secure? is it from a channel the explorer created to the node, or if not, from which channel is it?
MF
21:58
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
I think they could technically lie to us with this link
AK
21:58
A K
ok, but suppose I run my own explorer
21:58
and connect to their channel node
21:58
will I have my own dedicated channel?
MF
21:59
Mr Flintstone
channels happen with on-chain tx
21:59
so no
AK
21:59
A K
how would liquidity aka other bets propagate there?
MF
21:59
Mr Flintstone
People need to open channels with their server
AK
21:59
A K
ok, so creating a channel is different
21:59
suppose i just connect with my explorer, how do i verify the liquidity?
21:59
cryptographically
Z
22:00
Zack
In reply to this message
.
AK
22:00
A K
so, just trust the node?
22:00
ok maybe I'm missing smth ( a market is shared across multiple channels with common liquidity?
22:00
or each channel has a copy of a same market? :-/
MF
22:02
Mr Flintstone
Zack do unfilled binary option limit orders update the channel state?
Z
22:02
Zack
The market can only have one price per batch.
If the batch price is better than the price you agreed to pay, then your bet is matched too.
AK
22:02
A K
price per batch is onchain?
MF
22:03
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
like the act of placing them
Z
22:03
Zack
In reply to this message
If you have an unmatched order in your state channel, that is much different from having an empty state channel.

It is more complicated than having a matched trade.
22:03
In reply to this message
No.
For Amoveo only account balances are on chain. No smart contract state is ever on chain.
AK
22:04
A K
ok so how does the price per batch propagate from one channel to another?
MF
22:04
Mr Flintstone
so if I approach the market, and I see an open order that I can fill, I have to be able to know the contents of someone else’s state channel when I bet against it right?
AK
22:04
A K
suppose there is one node, one market, two ppl connect to place bets
22:04
how do orders propagate and match between this two channels?
22:05
In reply to this message
You can't know the contents of someone else's channel.
MF
22:05
Mr Flintstone
so how do I know that an open order is valid and that I can match it
22:05
is it part of my channel?
22:05
keep in mind I didn’t place this order
Z
22:06
Zack
You can't know that
AK
22:06
A K
oops
22:06
so the node running the market can present a completely spoofed order book
22:06
and I can be led to placing bets based on false info
Z
22:06
Zack
All you know is whether your own trade was matched.
AK
22:07
A K
so how do we know if the market is settled correctly?
Z
22:07
Zack
In reply to this message
Any centralized market can make a fake order book.
AK
22:08
A K
aside from the market operator, no one would be able to check whether the orders matched correctly?
Z
22:08
Zack
Everyone knows they are matched correctly, it is trustless.
I already linked you the proof 2 times.
AK
22:08
A K
i understand who it works with 2 participants (i hope i do)
22:08
i'm trying to get how do orders propagate from one channel to another
22:09
(if they do ?)
Z
22:09
Zack
Did you read it,
22:09
?
AK
22:09
A K
tnx 😢 i'll do another approach
22:09
tnx tnx
Z
22:12
Zack
When participating in a market, it would be nice if there was a trustless way to know how many other open orders there are, but this isn't critical for secure functionality of the market. And that goal is contradictory with some privacy goals.

The only things we absolutely need to guarantee is that orders are being matched in single price batches, at the correct price, at the correct times.
MF
22:15
Mr Flintstone
so the only way currently in amoveo to be sure of the results of an off chain market (I.e futarchy for the purpose of on chain governance ) is to participate in the off chain market yourself and see what was matched?
Z
22:17
Zack
Each batch the market produces a price. There is a big incentive for them to only do one price per batch.

You can verify the price is signed by the correct person.
22:18
If the order book is empty of trades, I guess they could publish any price and it wouldn't matter
MF
22:20
Mr Flintstone
makes sense. thanks
22:22
do you think it makes sense to use this periodic batched price as a price feed for other smart contracts? I guess one problem is that if there is zero volume then ppl can just trade on both sides to make the batch price to be whatever they want
Z
22:24
Zack
What other contract?
Why not just reference the same oracle?
MF
22:28
Mr Flintstone
if you want to use one price oracle system to build multiple derivatives with shorter maturity dates
SL invited SL
MF
22:29
Mr Flintstone
seems like it would be more cost effective for chain bloat and veo cost
Z
22:31
Zack
So if we are betting on a football game, and a mini-market expires before the football game ends, then who wins the mini market?
MF
22:31
Mr Flintstone
it would depend on what the last batch price of the big market is
22:31
at a certain time
22:31
Or block or whatever
Z
22:32
Zack
It seems like what you want is for a single channel server to run multiple markets, and to use a single price declaration for all the markets at once.
MF
22:32
Mr Flintstone
yeah. but how do you enforce a shorter maturity date with one on chain price source?
Z
22:32
Zack
I think if the long-term market has less volume than the short term market, this wouldn't be secure
22:33
In reply to this message
Chalang is turing complete. You can program it to pay out when it reads a price declaration.
MF
22:35
Mr Flintstone
yeah I think that’s what I mean
22:35
In reply to this message
maybe, it’s still profitable to make the markets have the correct price
Z
22:35
Zack
I think it might always be preferable to participate in the long term market, and to just sell your shares when you are ready to leave.
MF
22:36
Mr Flintstone
right
22:36
I guess the last batch price is what you would have settled the other shorter maturity contract for anyways, so it doesn’t make economic difference
Z
22:37
Zack
Right
26 November 2018
T
07:14
Tromp
Who made the webpage?
07:15
It is pretty simple and cool. Good job 🍺
07:16
Amoveo.pro
Z
07:18
Zack
Yes, the parts I looked at so far look good.
I am guessing it is from the exan tech guys. @denis_voskvitsov
T
07:21
Tromp
I think it was necessary for cmc listing
07:21
How can we best promote the webpage?
T J invited T J
scott_l | DeFi Pulse invited scott_l | DeFi Pulse
MF
07:55
Mr Flintstone
thanks to the exan tech team!
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
10:09
Zack
I notice a correlation between my tweets and the VEO price. Is it legally safe for me to sell a preview of my tweets?
ES
10:38
Ed Sonic
Is the veo wallet approved/used by anyone here? from amoveo.pro
Z
10:40
Zack
I have not reviewed exan.tech's wallet source code.
This is the recommended wallet: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo
I also recommend that you use cold storage.

exan.tech's wallet could be a convenient tool for using small amounts of veo easily, but I would not trust it with large amounts.
ES
10:55
Ed Sonic
In reply to this message
Thanks Zack
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
11:50
Topab
I think I can find people to help with the transition in Chinese
11:50
For amoveo.pro
M
11:51
Mike
In reply to this message
It’d be pretty hard to prove this correlation so I’d think you’re okay. If we applied this to Elon Musk it’s probably illegal because he still is an acting executive at a publicly traded company
M
13:56
Minieep21
I dont see an issue with the tweeting. It's your project and you dont make false claims, real development = price increase
13:56
Has anyone from REP challenged the criticism? Haven't seen anything
Pepe Doge invited Pepe Doge
15:16
they say to support trustful and "other" oracles
15:23
if anything, they should score the same with Augur IMO, either both 8 or both 0
15:28
i mean, Gnosis only gives ultimate oracle as an option, not mandates it
Deleted invited Deleted Account
DY
16:40
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Whats the corrolation? The amount? The content? The hype?
Jeans invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
SΞΞD invited SΞΞD
Victor invited Victor
Z
21:17
Zack
In reply to this message
At least one version of gnosis oracle is very powerful. It uses almost the same design as us.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
P invited P
MF
23:19
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
seems like it would be difficult to get ethereum to fork for their oracles
23:19
if it is the same design
Z
23:19
Zack
Right. That's why I didn't give gnosis a 10.
23:19
8 is a lot better than any of our other competitors
27 November 2018
Sandro invited Sandro
Aries invited Stephen Leahy