10:07
Spike Spiegel
Thanks - perfect. I wonder if coinpaprika should use IPv4 directly or maybe some domain and DNS ;O
10:07
Zack
it will be on all the full nodes once they update
10:08
did anyone put a full node on a domain name?
10:45
Spike Spiegel
Well, this is "governance" issue - because those things are usually sticky
11:05
Mr Flintstone
agreed that oracles are not suitable for the entire universe of questions
11:06
however, this doesn’t necessarily mean that there aren’t insurance questions that can be known by the general public
11:06
for example, if your employer defaults on public or even private debt, this can be public knowledge
11:07
also, if you want to insure against assessed property value (which is public record), you can use oracles for this as well
11:08
there are lots of ways that we can be clever
11:10
Topab
Agree those uses are possible
11:10
Mr Flintstone
many others are possible too, we just need to be somewhat clever in how we go about it
11:11
there are lots of things that oracles aren’t suitable for though for sure
11:18
an EV+ move might be to get a quote from an insurer then become an insurer yourself by undercutting the quote and offering it on amoveo since you as the insurer don’t have any of the costs typically associated with insurers (property, payroll, compliance etc)
11:19
it’s like you are a parasite leeching away the rent from the insurance industry
11:19
obvs this would only apply to certain types of insurance, but it is possible
3yoshi joined group by link from Group
Muratbek ZHANYGULOV invited Muratbek ZHANYGULOV
15:24
NM$L
price drop a lot
15:33
Denis Voskvitsov
x-mas sale!
17:16
Zack
You can get insurance against the possibility that btc will lose value.
Insurance is any bet that reduces your risk profile.
18:30
Zack
Escodex is a scam, right?
They advertise as a decentralized exchange, but they support thing like btc-eth, which is impossible because btc has signature manipulation bug.
Someone from their team wanted me to pay to have amoveo listed on their exchange. They are unable to explain how escodex is decentralized.
If this is a centralized exchange pretending to be decentralized, it will be so disappointing.
I guess we can look at all the blockchains that paid to be listed, and know that all those blockchains are run by people who don't know what decentralization is.
19:00
Smith
Any airdrop or bounty
19:29
O K
I was reading their FAQ and it seemed they meant noncustodial, but it turns out it is custodial and centralized.
19:29
Zack
There is nothing wrong with running a centralized exchange, but advertising it as if it was decentralized is wrong.
19:30
O K
Same with noncustodial "the funds stay in your wallet, just send the funds to the address on your web browser screen"
21:40
Alex C
Price back above $150 - Christmas sale is over!
21:51
Mr Flintstone
I feel like nobody focuses on the cool stuff when the price is pumping, yet when it dumps we have interesting discussions
21:51
enti
big gap between ask and big though, and low volume
21:55
Zack
when the price pumps, people ask "How long till mainnet?", "where can I buy?" "Is this an ERC-20 token?" "when moon?"
Then when the price drops, people ask stuff like "How can I know that the Amoveo oracle is secure?" "What is the expected long-term equilibrium price of using Amoveo smart contracts vs other smart contract platforms?" "How can you enforce single-price batches in the lightning network?"
22:01
Al
Well the same is with ETH currently, nobody cares in terms of new things, price droped - ok everyone out
22:11
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
Very true! Hahahaha
22:11
enti
I have a hard time making veominer works on ubuntu
22:11
any specialist here ?
22:37
Topab
It may be a stupid question, how do you actually send this synthetic stable assets? From the white paper "With derivatives, you can build an asset that stays the same value as a Euro. It is a synthetic asset. You can send these synthetic-Euros to your friends, and treat them like Euros"
22:46
Mr Flintstone
I think USD or EUR payments over lightning would be awesome
22:46
Zack
Currently we only have tools for buying and selling the asset to the market.
Eventually we will build a tool that allows lightning network contracts that follow long paths to be moved to a direct path. This is a simple application of hash locking, similar to a lightning spend.
So if you have a contract A, you could give someone else contract A which creates contract -A for you.
You can cancel out your A with the -A to be left with nothing.
The long path used to flow through you, and they move it to a direct path that doesn't include you. This frees up the Veo in your channels to be used for other contracts.
22:48
Topab
Ok, I was thinking that selling was the way that is why I thought sending was not really possible ... as you explained later on will be possible
22:48
enti
I have a problem with the light wallet too... I get a different public key as soon as I reload the page 😅
22:49
Zack
Save the private key to a file. Reload that same file when you visit the same page.
22:49
Keep the private key secret, and do not lose it. You need it to access your Veo.
22:53
O K
Maybe the light wallet should *not show the new key until the user inputs a save name and clicks save
22:53
I've had people message me who didn't save their private key before
22:54
They shouldn't be this deep in crypto probably, but still
22:54
Zack
Right. We should rename save then.
"Generate new account"?
22:55
O K
That could work.
23:01
enti
Did it, thx. And yeah, can be disturbing
23:02
Zack
I fixed it in the light node. full nodes have to do ./rebar3 upgrade
to get the updated version of the light node.
23:06
DevOps
Fucking china retard
23:08
O K
Not sure what this is about but we don't do racism here
23:08
A K
xdpool probably )
23:10
Zack
I think it could be the opposite. He is promoting the sexuality of the mentally handicapped in china.
It is a good goal, lots of disabled people have trouble meeting their sexual needs.
But I don't think it belongs here. We don't have good enough public statistics on the sexual satisfaction of the disabled to be able to ask the Amoveo oracle about this, so we can't make any futarchy or dominant assurance contracts to help this problem.
23:17
Maximilian von Hulewicz
👏
02:58
Amoveo listed at vinex network, Singapore-based exchange
02:58
Denis Voskvitsov
are they on CMC?
02:58
Aizen Sou
They already applied to cmc, should be live very soon
Sergey Dsk invited Sergey Dsk
04:31
Zack
It seems like the trick is to make lots of hyperlinks that point to amoveo pages, and the words of the link should be a term that is likely to be googled by people who are interested in the kind of technology that Amoveo offers.
So if the link says the words "state channel" or "lightning network" or "oracle", and it pointed to a website like
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveoThen if someone were to google for "lightning network", amoveo would appear higher in the rankings.
04:33
It seems like very few people are creating the vast majority of the hyperlinks. So much hyperlink inequality on the internet today.
04:34
Gregory
Lets shut down the internet
04:45
A K
Link the unhyperlinked
04:46
Zack
google doesn't care about the hyperlink proletariat.
We are the hyperlink 99%.
04:54
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
👍🏻👍🏻
05:00
Denis Voskvitsov
too official :)
but okay, thanks
05:01
Zack
should I write something different?
05:01
Denis Voskvitsov
i'll better just open a PR with change
05:52
Han Tuzun
Hi all! Amoveo Exchange is now A1 Exchange.
https://a1.exchange is our new domain and
@a1exchange is our new Telegram channel. We're glad to be a part of Amoveo community with our new brand!
05:53
Denis Voskvitsov
are you in partnership with
a1.at by any chance? :)
08:18
Han Tuzun
we're affiliated with the stake sauce only 😄
08:19
Zack
you have a steak sauce sponsorship?
08:19
I bet you only want proof of steak blockchains now.
08:19
Han Tuzun
I'm sorry for that 😄
Deleted invited Deleted Account
09:55
Mr Flintstone
if you were worried about alpha degradation in the cryptocurrency market look no further to this stunning example of capital misallocation
09:58
at least they shut it down before lighting all of their money on fire
14:43
Deleted Account
Google and hyperlinking could be an opportunity for Amoveo. Im thinking a market where people will bet which search result will see the most traffic. We could have markets for the top search words...
14:43
Like futarchy for search engines
14:45
Or perhaps closer to a cross between wikipedia and a search engine
15:22
Zack
That sounds fun. Like a search engine optimization competition.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
20:11
Zack
This is a place to discuss Amoveo.
20:20
Deleted Account
Hey Zack. Can you explain me in short story whats amoveo?
20:49
Alex C
If you have any other questions, fire away! Always happy to try help or clarify something!
Ulvur joined group by link from Group
01:13
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈 via @gif
Deleted invited Deleted Account
01:31
Ulvur
Hello jurko!😁
01:51
Deleted Account
Hi admin
01:51
What exchange did the VEO list??
01:52
Deleted Account
Thank you bro
01:54
Mike
And graviex (if I spelled that right)
01:58
Deleted Account
When Binance??
03:14
Tarrence van As
Has anyone managed to get the Amoveo client running in a docker container?
03:18
Currently in talks with binance to get veo listed :p
03:21
Moe ⛏
Binance is very welcome to list VEO,. We do not charge anything to be listed. It is free 🤗
03:25
Peter
Are you serious about this?
03:26
enti
serious about what ? everyone is "in talk" with binance to get listed
03:27
Peter
True. I missed the sarcasm...sry
04:36
Deleted Account
im getting "could not get block 16242 from peer" while trying to sync hhmm
04:37
Zack
your node's database is probably corrupted.
04:40
Deleted Account
ok deleted database and restarted
04:57
Deleted Account
ok worked now
09:10
The concept of governance variables is pretty significant in this context.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
15:19
Deleted Account
DOES ANY ONE KNOW VEO SUPPLY?????
15:20
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
YES
15:25
Deleted Account
WOW ONLY 51K SUPPLY?
15:27
Ben
@denis_voskvitsov was that API Call there all the Time or is that one new? ;)
15:27
Denis Voskvitsov
new one, Zack had implemented it like week ago
Deleted invited Deleted Account
17:59
Deleted Account
@entinio hey my friend :) nice logo ;)
username joined group by link from Group
Abrahalacite invited Abrahalacite
23:21
Abrahalacite
where can i buy amoveo
23:45
Abrahalacite
wow~ this price is crazy~
23:46
enti
no buyers there 😅
23:48
Abrahalacite
330 usd per coin
23:48
enti
well, the VEO liquidity is low
23:48
that's why we talk of mVEO usually
23:49
Abrahalacite
but almost volumn is 22 veo only for the past 24 hours...
23:49
O K
This doesn't really happen
23:49
Mr Flintstone
wasn’t too long ago there was like 500+ veo volume per day
23:51
enti
low volume means people hodl as well, not a bad thing
23:52
and the coins with a lot of volume are listed on exchanges with bots
23:57
Tromp
I know right very cheap 🍺
23:57
Alex C
There are a few exchnages too choose from when it comes to VEO now! otc on discord is another option btw
00:01
Tromp
Yeah, i guess people who are accumulating do so on a fundamental basis, increasing positions as development goes on.
Zack is doing an amazing job so far
00:03
Alex C
Agree, especially when the price seems right!
00:05
Tromp
Yes, who knows where the next bubble will take us
01:46
Mike
Day dreaming? ;)
02:43
Deleted Account
i amo=1000 eth
Deleted invited Deleted Account
04:45
Tarrence van As
I made a website to track amoveo oracles and governance, check it out here:
https://veo.shWould love to hear any feedback you guys might have!
04:48
Mr Flintstone
awesome
04:48
getting access denied though?
04:49
oh nvm went thru this time
04:50
also great to have lots of governance variable values too here
04:51
one comment I have is that for question oracles the output state is more like “outcome” than it is “prediction” since the oracles themselves don’t predict anything they just report on what happened
04:52
Tarrence van As
I have it as “outcome” for oracles that have been closed
04:52
But “prediciton” for open oracles
04:53
Those “Awaiting Close” should probably also be “Outcome"
04:53
Mr Flintstone
even oracles that are open don’t predict anything, they just report
04:54
the single price batches in the markets are where the predictions happen
04:54
also seems like something happened w/ dev reward?
04:55
Tarrence van As
Hmm true although while they are still open the outcome is subject to change and “outcome” sounds like it is finalized to me. Maybe it should be “reported” until it is closed
04:56
Good catch on the dev reward, I think it’s a percentage not veo units
04:57
should I put it on the readme?
04:57
should I tweet about it?
04:57
Tarrence van As
Sure that’d be awesome!
04:58
Zack
mr flintstone is right about the developer reward, it isn't being displayed correctly
04:58
time gas and space gas aren't measured in veo, they are just integer values.
04:59
like how function limit is an integer
04:59
Tarrence van As
Ok will update those
04:59
Zack
minimum oracle time is a number of blocks, not a number of seconds
05:01
Tarrence van As
Is the correct value for dev reward “19.99%"?
05:02
Zack
currently yes, that is correct
05:02
20% makes 1/6th of the total reward
05:02
20% / (100% + 20%) = 1/6
05:04
Tarrence van As
Ok I fixed those issues, thanks guys
05:05
Zack
umm...
sorry, I was wrong.
I think we should not display 20% here.
We should either display the number of veo, or 17.77%
05:06
O K
Just display the veo amount IMO
05:06
Tarrence van As
Ok. Heading out for a bit but will update later
05:06
Tarrence van As
Thanks!
05:15
[Riki]
why are there so many "bad question" outcomes?
05:16
whats bad about this Q for example
05:16
[Riki]
yeah nice site man 👌🏻
05:21
Zack
it can't resolve as either true or false.
05:47
Ben
@tarrencev nice start, but i miss grouping (open, closed) and what happend in the Oracle Bet wise. But again, nice start!
06:19
Sy
Yeah we should combine our knowledge 😎
06:20
Tarrence van As
I'm not sure, I'm just rendering the block chain state
06:21
Definitely would like to add that functionality. I figured right now since there are so few oracle's it wasn't necessary
06:36
Zack
there is one more governance variable that your site currently is not displaying.
oracle question fee.
07:41
Tarrence van As
What is that called in code?
07:44
Mr Flintstone
I think question_oracle_liquidity or oracle_question_liquidity?
07:44
Zack
oracle_question_liquidity is how I remember it
07:46
Tarrence van As
Gotcha, I had an issue with that for some reason but let me give it another shot
07:56
Mr Flintstone
Was there an initial somewhere in there?
07:56
Zack
initial_question_liquidity?
07:59
Zack
looks like oracle_question_liquidity
was right
08:11
Deleted Account
i don't know there was a dev reward in this project, does that 17.77% means every block will distribute that much reward to dev team?
08:16
Mr Flintstone
aka zack atm but yeah
08:16
it’s a governance variable and has been from the start
Deleted invited Deleted Account
12:30
Spike Spiegel
Wouldn't futarchy on supply governance variables turn into something similar to Basis?
Basic logic:
- if price below target: then reduce supply
- if price above target: then increase supply
One can target something like 10% per year (until it reaches some significant fraction of the world m1 supply)
12:33
If something is able to grow stable at like 10% per year ( and actually delivers on such goal) it would easily capture billions of value
12:38
Also technical thing: IHMO it would be best to target lowest possible price volatility as if veo would be volatile then to hedge using veo one would need to hedge usd-veo as well
12:58
Mr Flintstone
just let the market value it
12:58
we don’t need to target anything imo
13:22
Evgeny Vlasov
hi guys! we creted video explaining how bitstream works on FPGA minig Amoveo
21:34
Zack
Talk is cheap. If you feel some strategy is best, then participate in futarchy markets with your money to encourage the strategy you prefer.
If you are right, it will be profitable.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
22:49
Zack
I am planning to switch countries soon.
I am not sure if my chip in my phone will still work after I switch countries. Will Telegram lock me out of this chat?
22:52
Alex K
No, install it on your laptop. You will be able to confirm new devices without mobile
22:52
Zack
awesome, thanks for the info Alex
22:52
but what if I am not bringing a laptop?
22:58
A K
Bring some device with approved tg acct with you
22:59
Plus you only need to receive sms on the phone with current acct, most plans allow for it in roaming
23:00
A K
And when you’ll want to switch to a new local number, TG allows for it, too
Blue Hills invited Blue Hills
07:34
Blue Hills
Hey guys, I am a miner recently switching to your coin and having the hardest time getting a wallet working
07:35
Didn't know if someone would be a good resource of common issues to the online web generated wallet
07:36
What problem are you having
07:38
Blue Hills
It just seems the buttons on the page are not responsive besides the "Save private key to file"
07:39
O K
Have you saved a private key
07:40
Blue Hills
For instance pasting into the field next to "Load pubkey" then clicking check balance yeilds no change in the page. Does it not normally show a zero balance for instance
07:40
Which I expect correlates to the public one
07:40
O K
If your wallet is empty, no nothing happens
07:42
Blue Hills
Okay. And the = symbol at the end of the public key is part of the key?
07:43
Blue Hills
Is there a way to check balance on the block explorer?
07:43
O K
If your wallet is empty veoscan won't do anything either
07:44
Blue Hills
Or incoming transactions? I just want to be able to confirm mining rewards are coming in. I guess I can wait till there is a payout
07:44
This includes unconfirmed tx
07:45
Blue Hills
Okay looks like at least it says NaN
07:45
O K
So nothing has been sent to you
07:45
The wallets work great, get some veo first and you'll see
07:46
Blue Hills
Yeah probably, I doubt I will have gotten my first payout yet.
07:46
O K
What mining pool are you using?
Amoveopool.com makes it pretty clear when you'll get paid
07:47
O K
Okay, I'm sure you'll get paid soon enough
07:48
Blue Hills
You guys are no longer OTC only right?
07:49
O K
There are several exchanges, you can find info on
amoveo.pro
07:55
Blue Hills
Great. Do any of these exchanges listed auto exchange for BTC? Or still have to manually exchange
07:56
What's the price in USD, $145/unit? Sorry for all the questions haha
07:56
O K
veoscan.io has current price information
08:00
Blue Hills
Interesting on the 20% price spread between ETH and BTC
08:01
Thanks though, looks to be $135-165/unit
08:01
*trade price spread
08:11
O K
There is a
#price-discussion forum on the amoveo discord, it might be an interesting place for you
Deleted invited Deleted Account
10:14
enti
because you compare with a BTC price on a 0 volume exchange ;)
20:59
Zack
will you update soon? I want to share on twitter.
21:54
Tarrence van As
Gonna update later today
21:55
Just need to add Oracle question fee right?
21:56
Zack
dev reward should be a quantity of veo
21:56
0.20 * (block reward)
21:57
and oracle question fee, yes.
22:04
Tarrence van As
Ok sounds good 👍
Deleted invited Deleted Account
05:06
Tarrence van As
Deployed the update
05:11
Zack
Yes.
It doesn't work so well on my phone.
Do you want to fix that first?
05:11
It's too big, I can't see everything
05:20
Tarrence van As
Sure, let me make it responsive
05:59
Tarrence van As
Should look better now
06:29
Mr Flintstone
looks great
06:29
I think I remember there being like 2k+ veo unmatched for the block reward oracle?
06:31
Tarrence van As
I also thought that
06:31
Not sure if I am doing something wrong
06:32
Zack
yeah, that was when 1800 veo got created from no where, and we sent them to a burn address
06:33
Mr Flintstone
It’s weird cuz some of the oracles have unmatched amounts on
veo.sh
Alan Tretech invited Alan Tretech
07:09
Alan Tretech
is the web wallet the only one?
07:10
and there is a javascript web wallet from the
exan.tech team
07:10
Alan Tretech
awesome thanks :D
07:10
Zack
or you can use a full node.
17:38
Thank you for everything Godfather!
18:46
The manifesto really had the idea of bitcoin in it
18:46
Prediction markets idea is there too
21:02
Ben
he was ahead of the Curve.
21:27
enti
any global hashrate chart somewhere ?
21:30
enti
thanx, perfect answer ;)
21:56
and what it means to control an open source software.
21:56
Zack
yeah, there are some good ideas in here on how to update Amoveo software more securely.
21:57
A K
yeah, exactly. at some point amoveo would have to allow commits from more than 1 benevolent Zacktator )
21:59
Zack
Anyone is free to make a github account and maintain your own version of Amoveo.
If I like your updates, I will merge them.
I will send pull requests to your account with any updates I think are important.
You can have final decision of what software is in your repository on github.
21:59
A K
yeah, in principle, i know
21:59
point is, look at bitcoin core software dominance
22:00
and what happened to poor Mike Hearn (
22:00
Zack
and you think this is because they have 5 people sharing 1 github account?
I think bitcoin has dominance because it was first.
22:01
A K
no, i think that "roll your own btc client and if it's better ppl will switch" proved to be a bit naive, and the article disccuses that
22:01
O K
Being first is one reason
22:01
A K
plus having some resilience/redundancy in terms of 1 controller of commits vs 5 has benefits
22:02
Zack
there are multiple competing ethereum clients.
which client is most popular has changed over time.
22:03
A K
but who approves the EIPs? I honestly don't know eth governance, always assumed holy Vitalik is the single point of failure
22:04
Zack
I am not sure how it works in Ethereum, but decisions like that would be easy in Amoveo. We can use futarchy markets.
22:04
O K
I mean charlie lee caused major damage to ltc community when he left
22:05
I would only presume vitalik:ETH would be worse
22:05
A K
yeah. i don't know why ppl still hold any ltc
22:36
Kirill zp
Are you sitting on a salary?
crypt0graph3r invited crypt0graph3r
Pierre Damen invited Pierre Damen
05:16
Pierre Damen
hi guys
05:16
whre can i buy VEO =)
05:16
Zack
See the pinned message.
05:24
Mr Flintstone
veo available on Gozo now?
05:24
Zack
Is gozo an exchange?
05:24
Mr Flintstone
looks like it. not exactly sure what it is but the exan ppl seem to be related to it
05:27
o dam this is some serious shit
05:28
Pierre Damen
why is it so hard to buy VEO ? will it come on more major exchanges 2 one day ?
05:29
Mr Flintstone
looks like for professional traders only
05:30
Mr Flintstone
easiest way to buy veo right now is to just set a decent bid on qtrade or A1 Exchange. bids seem to be getting filled
05:30
Zack
Gozo looks like an ico on stellar. Maybe you are looking at a different site from me.
05:30
O K
I've never heard of it
05:31
Pierre Damen
ok thx
05:33
Zack
Cool they have veo/usd and veo/euro. First of each.
Too bad they aren't on coin market cap.
05:34
Mr Flintstone
minimum $10k deposit to trade looks like
05:34
lol I don’t think so
06:02
Tromp
More liquidity is nice 👍🏻, those exan tech guys seem to like amoveo a lot
06:27
Zack
Oh, it is from exan tech. That makes me hopeful for
gozo.pro Exan tech has done a lot of work on amoveo tools, and they have been doing a good job.
07:21
O K
How do we setup the new users can't post links right away thing like other groups
07:21
Idk if it would even help
07:57
Mr Flintstone
I feel like we usually catch them pretty quickly
07:58
I just delete and ban
08:00
Zack
If they can't post a link, won't they just post something without a link?
I think it is funny when they write stuff like "click here now! this link will disappear in 3 seconds!!"
08:53
Zack
What if we had a survivor type video show, and we used futarchy to make the decision of who gets eliminated?
We would have the futarchy oracle optimize the decision so we maximize revenue or viewers for the show.
That would make it more fair, which I think would make these competitions more interesting.
It isn't some random biased judge making the decision, or some studio executive who could be bribed. The winner is objectively the most entertaining, according to the invisible hand of the market.
08:54
I wonder what the legal consequences would be for participating in a futarchy market to voice your opinions for a TV show.
You are betting on how many viewers they will get, is that regulated in any way?
08:54
Spike Spiegel
Purely $ driven content is quickly degenerating into worst kind of clickbait.
08:56
Zack
I wonder if it makes sense to have the invisible hand of the market choose the winner for a "the bachelor" survivor type show.
Maybe we will get more viewers if he goes with an unexpected girl.
08:56
Spike Spiegel
I was actually writing stuff for buzzfeed style listicle page:
- 10 cool things that will blow your mind - and only goal was to get more pageviews.
https://steemit.com/hot/
08:58
Literally watchers paying to force players into doing more and more dangerous stints to kill them and reward winners handsomely
09:03
Zack
the motive for profit isn't the reason that clickbate exists.
Profit motive drives the creation of all products.
I think clickbate has more to do with limitations of our current browser interfaces. Each web page is so big, and the tools for partially loading them are not so good. This is especially true if you have slow internet.
Anyway, using futarchy to run movies isn't completely new. There is already the Hollywood stock exchange, which helps people make financial decisions for movies.
Using Amoveo futarchy to make even more decisions is a natural technological progression for the movie industry.
09:07
Watcher or Player wouldn't work so well for Amoveo.
What would you even ask the oracle?
What evidence would people use to report in the oracle?
Some random video of strangers is not useful evidence to any participant in the oracle.
09:10
Spike Spiegel
Somebody is creating the possible things to do for participants, then futarchy is deciding on best idea.
Then person may accept or reject. IF accepted then the system is requesting watchers (yeah random video from strangers as a proof) to validate
09:10
How do decide if something is true or not or babd question if answer is somehow costly to obtain or little subjective?
09:11
Augur already got this problem with "will dems take the senate or something"
09:12
Zack
You cannot use Amoveo for "Watch or Player" type stuff, because that does not create a public good that we all can easily verify the existence of.
Amoveo does not use "watchers to validate". that would not be a secure oracle system.
09:15
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/oracle.mdYou can read about Amoveo's oracle design here.
Amoveo's oracle is optimized to be accurate, and to be low cost.
While optimizing for accuracy and cost, we had to sacrifice other things. Amoveo can only be used to ask about information that is easy for anyone to verify at any point in time into the future.
09:15
Spike Spiegel
Can you validate if bridge was build?
09:15
If its in different country or so?
09:16
Zack
not always.
For big cities, it should be doable.
09:19
The city could try to trick us all. Everyone could post fake pictures of construction, edit the bridge into the skyline on all their photos, etc.
The news could all publish fake reports of the bridge, they could even bribe google to add the road to their maps.
And then you would probably be able to trick Amoveo into thinking that the bridge was built.
It would be tough to pull off. The people of the city wouldn't want to help you get paid for not building a bridge.
The people of the city are the ones who would be contributing to the bridge, since they would benefit from it.
09:21
Spike Spiegel
BTW - why nobody is using Veo for CFD stablecoin?
09:22
Zack
We need to do a hard update soon that will reset all the oracles.
09:22
Spike Spiegel
I get it that MakerDAO / Basis / insert whatever stablecoin project is flawed - it seems that people just don't care
09:22
Sell a so-called ‘stable’ asset with significant hidden tail risk
>If things go well, collect short-term profits
>If/when things go bad, exit the market ⇒ losses left with ‘stable’ asset holders
09:22
Zack
And I think people are concerned for the legal liability of running a market of derivatives
09:26
Spike Spiegel
Assuming it would be profitable enough there would be willing people to do it, but it won't be profitable unless there would be large demand - but how to create demand for CFD products? IHMO good solution would be creating some kind of incentive scheme: offer some money for people to use markets / bets that would be subsidised by another market that's predicting price increase from increased popularity
09:27
Re: Talk is cheap - I own significantly large part of my net worth in amoveo, but I'm not technical enough to do most of those things by myself
09:27
Zack
There is already plenty of demand for Veo risk. People pushed the price to 7 million. Surely they are also interested in having leveraged risk.
09:27
Mr Flintstone
someone has to want to go short veo using veo. I’m sure there are ppl wanting to go long
09:27
Zack
We know there is demand for stablecoin too, they exist.
We don't need to have any incentive scheme.
09:29
Mr Flintstone
A problem with shorting veo using veo is that as it goes down the veo you win is worth less
09:30
Spike Spiegel
My point is that why even bother with doing anything else than mostly governance over supply ( if most people just want long veo and nothing else then why create features for stuff with no users?
09:30
Mr Flintstone
well, people want to bet on stuff like the s&p 500 too
09:31
and the only way to do that without veo price risk is to simultaneously short veousd
09:31
Zack
it has a flat value for as wide of margins in the price of Veo as you need.
An idealized stablecoin that can be optimized for your needs.
09:31
Spike Spiegel
Yes I would like to - but due to low liquidity existing ad alternatives would be always better
09:33
Example: Compound is paying ~5% from DAI
https://compound.finance/ and it's "risk free" as loans are always at least 150% overcaptitalized
09:34
Zack
We need to get the update through, then we can make a market and question where the liquidity is.
09:34
Spike Spiegel
Few years ago trustless stablecoin was unreal thing and beyond dreams, now it exists and pays more than bank account ( closer and closer to feature parity + better rates )
09:37
Zack
This is a lending protocol.
You can't do trustless lending with the blockchain. It is obviously a scam.
09:37
Sounds like you will lose a lot of money.
09:38
O K
There is no such thing as trustless lending at all
09:38
Spike Spiegel
well, then how MKR exist?
09:39
Zack
I don't know what mkr is.
Pyramid schemes are stable while they are growing.
09:39
Spike Spiegel
MakerDAO / DAI
09:40
Zack
One size fits all monoculture contracts like that are no good.
Each stablecoin user has different needs. They should each optimize their margins differently.
09:41
One size fits all monoculture eventually die, and when they do the entire network goes down
09:41
Spike Spiegel
But it's composed of multiple CDP with different risk profiles
09:43
2038 CDP is different beast then 2234
liquidation prices:
77 USD per ETH For 2038
45 USD per ETH for 2234
09:43
Zack
This is a single contract so that all the stablecoin it makes are fungible. That is what I mean by monoculture. It dies for everyone simultaneous.
09:43
Spike Spiegel
In which case?
09:44
Zack
Another problem with on chain contracts is that they aren't very scalable.
Amoveo puts stable coins inside the lightning network, and the exchange is in the lightning network as well.
09:45
Spike Spiegel
There is currently no problem with on-chain scaling apparently as the main problem is decreased buying side
09:45
Zack
In the example veo:usd stablecoin. If the margin is 2x, and Veo loses more than 2x it's value during the lifetime of the contract, then you hit the margin. The contract can't protect you from any more risk because there is no money left in it.
09:46
Each user of stablecoin has different needs. They should each have different margins.
09:46
Spike Spiegel
How come this design is less risky than DAI design where exist feedback loop to increase margin?
09:47
No stablecoin can protect from long tail risk - for every stablecoin backed by another asset there exist price depreciation that kills it
09:47
Zack
Imagine if every customer had to buy the same amount of gas at a gas station.
That would be wasteful. Some would have too much, others not enough.
Forcing everyone to have the same margins is wasteful for the same reason.
09:47
Different people have different needs.
09:47
Spike Spiegel
But it's not the same - different CDP have different liquidation prices
09:48
Spike Spiegel
Only minimal margin in specified
09:48
Zack
What is cdp? You are making up words?
09:49
"Minimal margins specified"?
I don't know what you are talking about.
09:49
Spike Spiegel
Collateralized Debt Position
09:49
I'm talking about MakerDAO design
09:50
Zack
People invent new words when they are scamming you.
Amoveo uses the same words for finance as have been used for decades.
09:51
Oh, they are saying cpd to mean leveraged trading.
Maybe they call it that for legal reasons.
So it isn't classified like a derivative.
09:53
Zack
Another problem with maker dao is that it is using subcurrencies instead of derivatives everywhere.
Breaking the value on a chain into subcurrencies makes the interest rate worse, so it costs more to hold tokens. And it makes volatility worse.
Also, subcurrency is not compatible with lightning.
09:54
Spike Spiegel
Interest rate? it doesn't cost you anything to hold tokens ( DAI )
09:56
Zack
If the market cap of a random altcoin is $100,000, how much would I have to pay you so you would hold $100 of that altcoin for 1 month?
09:57
(It has to be a number between $100 and $0)
09:59
Spike Spiegel
Well - assuming there exist liquid market for options I may buy put option for $100 so it should be high enough to pay for option premium so I'm getting more than $1 fully hedged
10:00
So put option premium + my hurdle rate
10:00
Zack
If there was an arbitrage opportunity, you could get free money, yes.
I was trying to answer your question.
10:00
I'm not sure why you asked if you don't want to know.
10:01
Spike Spiegel
"Breaking the value on a chain into subcurrencies makes the interest rate worse" - it don't understand where the interest rate is coming from
10:01
Zack
You have been here so many times before, I feel like you must not be a troll.
10:02
Spike Spiegel
I have veo exposure and I wonder if I can do something to popularize the concept
10:03
Moon
Interest rate because of the reduced base layer security ?
10:03
Spike Spiegel
Asking people to buy random coin is not nice ( it's shilling ) but showing them that they can use platform / protocol / coin utility is much different
10:04
Zack
Your answer to this question /$100 is the interest rate you are willing to trade at for that altcoin.
10:05
Showing people an obvious scam is a good way to ruin your credibility.
10:05
Spike Spiegel
MakerDAO is obvious scam?
10:06
Zack
This is an obvious scam. You can't use a blockchain to secure lending.
10:07
Moon
You can through overcollaterization
10:07
It's suboptimal but it works
10:07
Zack
So if I lock up 10 Veo with you, then you could loan me 10 Veo.
That is true, and secure, and worthless.
10:08
Spike Spiegel
Subcurrencies exist :)
10:08
In ethereum you may own say $1000 of token X and you may use this stash to borrow token Y to get negative exposure to token Y ( short it )
10:09
O K
Right, collateralized loans reduce the risk of the loan
10:09
Moon
They should remove the rent seeking mkr token though
10:09
Zack
Oh, you aren't loaning the subcurrencies, you are just trading risk?
So then, what determines the current price?
10:10
Spike Spiegel
Supply and demand
10:10
Zack
I hate how everyone wants to rename everything
10:10
Trading risk is a derivative, not a loan.
10:12
Spike Spiegel
So people are trading risk at compound
10:13
Zack
What compound?
I thought it was a blockchain
10:13
Spike Spiegel
It's not a blockchain
10:18
Isn't observing popular but flawed derivatives markets good way to gauge how to create better platform?
10:20
ETH ecosystem is so powerful that people are using it even if there exist better alternative since it has users + developers + Joe Lubins
10:20
It has nothing to do with tech
10:20
Zack
https://makerdao.comthey talk about credit and borrowing.
I'm pretty sure this is a broken lending program, not a derivatives program. .
10:23
They literally created 30 words like
10:24
Moon
Seems old. Don't think they use any of these words anymore
10:26
If you criticising something try attacking strongest argument, not the easiest to attack. But my main point is how we can create better system with VEO
10:27
Zack
So, to recap, maker dao has problems:
* only altcoins markets, no interesting markets like futarchy or dominant assurance or prediction or lie detector.
* no lightning exchanges, so it cannot scale.
* no lightning payments, so it cannot scale.
* possibly no secure oracle for the stable coin? Maybe they use that one good oracle gnosis made.
* stable coins are fungible, so they are sharing margins so will all fail together.
* stable coins are fungible so they share margins so users cannot customize for their needs.
10:28
Mr Flintstone
there can be lightning payments
10:28
other than that ya lol
10:28
Moon
Not lighnint but other layer 2 on Ethereum
10:28
Mr Flintstone
u can program it however you please
10:29
Zack
it is technically possible to put erc into lightning, but that will basically never be useful.
10:30
When we made a derivative in amoveo, that derivative is on the same channel as Veo. It follows the same paths in lightning. Veo can turn into the derivative, and the derivative can turn back to Veo.
If we used altcoins like Erc20s, then each channel would have a finite amount of each kind of currency, and you cannot transform one into another.
10:33
So if I had a channel with lots of A and B in it, but no C, it would be impossible for me to receive Erc20 C in that channel.
10:33
Spike Spiegel
So only question is how long and what's needed to create "wallet" where one can easily exchange veo into synthetic stablecoin and send this stablecoin for low cost to other people
10:33
Since it's technically possible
10:33
Zack
It's better to sell the stablecoin, send Veo, and let them buy whatever they want on their end.
We already have a great wallet for this.
It worked on March 2 2018 when we launched.
10:33
Ben
So if every channel had a small bit of every currency type then it would optimize for fungibility of transforms?
10:33
Mr Flintstone
I think their price oracle is like a bunch of pubkeys reporting price
10:34
Spike Spiegel
yup, this is how it works for them
10:34
Zack
No. Erc20 + channels is basically worthless. We would almost never want that.
10:34
That is not cryptoeconomically secure. It will break.
10:35
Ben
Not unless you found a profitable application for doing so
10:41
Spike Spiegel
I really appreciate the fact that you don't cut corners by making veo more attractive to people by making it fundamentally unsecure longer term
10:41
Zack
If they are using a multisig for an Oracle, then either they are over-paying the Oracle, and it is secure, but far more expensive than amoveo. Or they are under-paying the Oracle and the Nash equilibrium is theft.
10:42
Mr Flintstone
even in event of a high fees you are vulnerable to retirement attack
10:42
Zack
Yes, assuming no one will buy your private key at a decent price
10:42
I bet they have a way of selling their privilege
10:43
Mr Flintstone
I wonder if u could sell it in zero knowledge
10:43
Zack
You would have to have never known the private key, which seems impossible
10:43
Mr Flintstone
probs not unless there was something in the actual contract that could take them
10:43
Zack
They can just upgrade the smart contract to use a new pubkey
10:44
If it's a small list of oracle members, they can email each other and come to agreement easily
10:44
Mr Flintstone
I want to say it’s like 20+ keys
10:44
Zack
I wonder how many I need to buy to make the oracle lie
10:44
Mr Flintstone
not much more tho
10:45
Mr Flintstone
there is only so much damage you can do before you get voted out I think (5% max change per round iirc)
10:45
so you need to bribe MKR holders too
10:45
Zack
So I need max voting power, then I can push everyone else out
10:45
Mr Flintstone
idk how current those MKR facts are
10:45
Zack
Oh, holders are voters. So it is like delegated pos
10:46
Mr Flintstone
yeah something like that. Though there is another kill switch with a different multisig in control
10:46
Zack
Then it is vulnerable to advertisement campaigns. Like a political election.
10:46
Mr Flintstone
the other multisig has fixed participants
10:46
Zack
Voting in small groups and voting in big groups are both insecure.
10:47
Zack
And stacking them in layers is insecure
10:47
Mr Flintstone
not saying it is a secure system
10:47
but they are managing to kick the attack can down the proverbial road in obfuscation
10:54
Zack
They probably _want_ it to be attacked.
The same people who built this are the ones on these voting lists are the ones who would be getting bribed tons of money to make it break.
10:54
Spike Spiegel
Assuming their goal is to increase MKR token value...
10:55
Mr Flintstone
lol that would be something else
10:56
building a network so you can get paid to destroy it
10:56
Zack
That is called a honey pot, right?
10:57
Spike Spiegel
If information about is is available and people are still buying MKR and DAI tokens then they deserve bad outcome?
10:58
Zack
I don't know what anyone deserves. Morality is so complicated.
Anyway, this is a place for blockchain, not philosophy.
10:58
Spike Spiegel
Many things are designed to work for limited time creating massive wealth for founders, then IPO on stock exchange and exit - Groupon / Snapchat etc
10:58
Mr Flintstone
I bet the market would say that the 1 yr probability of dai being < 1 usd is low so it is still rational for people to use it. insecure systems can work for a long time
11:00
Spike Spiegel
It's difference between saying system X will break because it cannot work, and saying that system X will work for some time until it will break not gracefully - Long-Term Capital Management
11:01
What about extending market duration to allow for long term bets / insurance?
11:01
Zack
People build centralized exchanges and steal all the money. It is a common occurance.
11:03
Either the Oracle fee is too high, in which case it will not break, but it will be far more expensive than amoveo.
or the Oracle fee is too low, in which case it will break fairly quickly.
11:03
Mr Flintstone
it has run for a year so far
11:03
with a lot of money at stake
11:03
Zack
So the Oracle fee is too high. How high is it?
I bet most of the fee is moving in ways we can't measure. Like a salary in fiat.
11:04
Mr Flintstone
I don’t think there is a fee
11:04
it is people supplying the price out of the goodness of their hearts
11:04
maybe a small one idk but it isn’t high
11:04
Zack
The Oracle must be paid somehow, or they would have already lied and robbed it.
I guess they could be building up for a bigger payoff in the future.
11:05
Mr Flintstone
I’ll sell dai < 90 cents insurance on amoveo if anyone is interested, monthly rolling
11:05
Zack
They might have jobs paid in fiat, and participating in the Oracle is part of their job
11:07
Mr Flintstone
you can also try to hit me offline and steal my money since I’ll need to put up a lot
11:14
Spike Spiegel
How much % per year for that?
11:14
Mr Flintstone
depends on the odds
11:15
I’d pay 20:1 annualized
11:27
Spike Spiegel
So here is the answer:
- people want something like DAI (lowest risk possible synthetic dollar) but they don't want to pay ~10% per year insurance
- somebody will always bear the risk of DAI collapse - either me or Mr Flintsone.
But MKR is giving this risk for people that don't know better while they extract 2.5% per year governance fee
11:28
It's like people like to say they like security and stability but they won't pay for it as they hope that somebody will bail them out ( MKR holders or a16z etc.. )
Alexander Teseyko invited Alexander Teseyko
Deleted invited Deleted Account
23:05
enti
mining on
veopool.pw kinda gives more than amoveopool
23:06
anyone knows why the consensus provides a better chance ratio to the main pool ?
23:06
doesn't really help on decentralisation... I kinda wanna switch
23:07
O K
I average just as expected over the long term. Maybe you are looking at the last couple days which were slow.
23:07
It also doesn't help when anyone has 51% of the hashrate. Any network delays globally only benefit the largest pool.
23:10
enti
veopool calc might be wrong though
23:10
O K
Oh, so you're not comparing the actual returns but rather the estimate vs reality?
23:10
A K
any calc on any PoW is +- a lot
23:11
The difficulty is constantly in flux
23:11
And as Strannik pointed out on discord, the entire network as not been getting 144 blocks per day
23:11
It just happens sometimes
23:11
Zack
its been averaging like 130 per day, right?
23:12
O K
Something like that recently
23:12
Zack
it seems like since the retargeting fix, the blocks have averaged at 11 minutes.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
08:55
Han Tuzun
Looks slick!
* You might want to consider capitalizing "VEO" in
https://veo.sh/governance * started/stars and ended/ends could be decided on whether their dates is in the past or not
Lili Blackminer invited Lili Blackminer
20:30
enti
Zack no feedback when sending VEOs through your light wallet ?
20:31
O K
It should give you a tx id
20:31
enti
it didn't go through then
20:31
O K
You can check the tx pool to be certain it didn't
20:32
With explorer.html on same server
20:33
Is your balance different here
20:34
enti
yep, didn't decrease
20:34
you send VEOs using the "send" button only right ?
20:34
it just erases the amount, no feedback
20:35
O K
On the server I just linked?
20:35
O K
That's what I linked
20:35
which is the last version
20:36
I use this one, always works
20:36
enti
ok the previous version is working
20:36
looks like a bug in the new one 😅
20:37
O K
I don't know where you get 'new' or 'previous' from but I think he uses different servers for different purposes.
20:38
enti
for example, lastest doesn't provide an address directly but forces you to generate it by downloading the private key
20:43
Shaun
@entinio you might wanna checkout the developer console on your browser to identify what's going wrong
21:23
Zack
the new version of the light node is preventing you from spending veo?
21:28
enti
I don't get any feedback (tx info) when using it
21:28
but no problem with the previous one
21:29
Zack
Thanks for the heads up. it should be fixed now.
It looks like I forgot to switch this server to sync_mode:normal().
when I turned it on.
21:29
The software is good.
21:39
Zack
Development has been slow these last few days, so here is an update of what is going on:
I have been working on the legal side of things.
This work will end up saving me time and money later, and it significantly reduces the risk of me getting into the kind of trouble that would force me to liquidate all my crypto.
I submitted my application to stop being a US citizen.
22:25
Deleted Account
hi i need help setting a pool
22:27
Deleted Account
i get this error
22:27
it says it miss conf file
22:28
O K
Have you set up the conf file?
22:28
Deleted Account
i followed all the instructions , but the conf file
22:29
O K
By the time you get done setting that up you'd be better off just using one of the existing pools
22:29
Deleted Account
i have to set up a pool
22:29
O K
amoveopool charges a measly 1%
22:29
Deleted Account
it s not for me
22:29
O K
I don't think you're going to find free tech support
22:30
Deleted Account
cant you tell me how to set up configuration file?
22:32
O K
I might if I thought that'd be the last question you'd ask, but the software is pretty intricate. Are they paying you to set it up for them?
22:32
Deleted Account
yes
22:39
Deleted Account
isnt there graphical interface with this pool ?
22:40
O K
There isn't a graphical interface for nveopool either lol
22:40
This is a good idea
22:41
Deleted Account
this is more simple to set up
22:41
Deleted Account
i ve already done but i dont see the main page
22:41
Zack
does your firewall block 8085? are you looking from the same machine on localhost?
22:43
Zack
you need to have an amoveo full node running first, before you turn on the mining pool. Maybe I need better instructions for turning it on.
22:43
Deleted Account
do you see it?
02:05
Mr Flintstone
not a single person has messaged me
02:09
A K
Try the Maker tg group )
02:14
Mr Flintstone
Zack is there an easy way to do this directly without a market host? The fees would eat up my premium quickly. I know this is related to the concept of moving an indirect path to a direct path but is there a way to start with direct path?
02:15
good idea but they might prefer augur
02:15
I’ll hit them up tho for sure when this hard update is done
02:34
Zack
Otc 1:1 custom bets are coming soon.
That will probably be my next goal after we get the hard update through.
02:42
Mr Flintstone
very exciting
02:42
way less legal risk to use amoveo :)
04:12
enti
I wonder why a coin goes down as soon as I'm mining it 😮
04:44
Sy
hmm when is the next one due
@Jbreezy0 ?
04:51
okay backup node is updated
04:51
main node is pulled but not restarted, ill watch the backup node first ^^
04:54
Mr Flintstone
fork is ready we just need to get pools on board then we can commit with a fork height . Maybe we can update in a week or so?
05:03
Zack
We need to agree on a height to switch yes
05:04
O K
A week would be great, I'd like at least 2 days though
05:06
How about 46600 or so
05:31
Андрюхин
Where can I read changes that this hardfork will bring to us ?
05:57
private_pr0perty
Hello. Why there are any trades at veo btc pair at a1exchange? Only veo eth volume
05:57
O K
It was originally an ETH exchange, the btc pair is pretty new
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Petr Romanov invited Petr Romanov
11:14
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
So is it okay my veo is in exchange when update kicks in?
11:30
well, the update won’t make your veo go anywhere lol
13:02
Андрюхин
Hi guys. How to add worker on
veopool.pw ?
15:49
private_pr0perty
Zack, do you planning to make veo transactions more faster? Change block time or etc
15:49
Sy
every pool handles worker via pubkey.workerName
16:12
private_pr0perty
how is minimum amount of veo for sending?
16:18
I P
You can transact in state channels in instant
16:19
The only slow part is when you open the channel to the node
16:53
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
They might get doubled. LOLOL. Thanks bro!
18:15
Here she talks about Futarchy.
Evgenia Squaw invited Evgenia Squaw
TSCHURRI invited TSCHURRI
Deleted invited Deleted Account
13:23
Zack
She briefly defines futarchy, and then moves on.
It is a good video for beginners to get introduced to blockchain.
14:12
Deleted Account
hi 2 all
14:16
if somebody asks you "hi, i'm noob. how to create a new market and make a bet", what text/link would you suggest?
14:37
Deleted Account
too much info for noob, imho)
14:38
Zack
If he wants to run a full node and host a channel market, he has to learn a lot.
14:42
Sy
its a bit like
"Hii, i have never run before, how can i run a marathon"
Train
"Na thats to hard"
14:42
Some are users and some are makers and there is usual a reason for that
14:44
Zack
I expect that less than 0.1% of amoveo users will ever run a full node. And even less will run a channel market on a full node.
14:50
Mr Flintstone
making bets is something lots of people will do
14:50
Zack
Yes, that's why you can do it from a light node.
14:54
Deleted Account
but in fact a lot of users want to bet on particular issue, not on existing issues
14:55
if it is technically very difficult - then many potential users will not use veo
14:56
and this is a problem, it requires some solution
15:03
Zack
I disagree.
The ability for non-programmers to be able to operate amoveo full nodes and channel nodes is not essential to the success of amoveo.
Is a non-programmer able to run an ethereum full node, and operate a server secured with custom smart contracts?
Is a non-programmer able to run a bitcoin lightning hub?
It isn't reasonable to hold amoveo to a higher standard than bitcoin and ethereum, especially when the arbitrary standard you made up doesn't correlate with Amoveo's goals.
15:03
There are lots of important goals for us to focus on. This is not one of our goals.
15:04
Deleted Account
but a lot of users want to ask questions, not just answer
15:04
i see only 1 open market
15:05
Zack
We are in the process of doing a hard update, and all the oracles will get canceled, and that is why we can't run markets now.
15:07
Deleted Account
i believe we need some system allowing each user to initiate new betting
15:09
Zack
How does that even relate?
If you want to bet on the presidential election, does that mean you are prepared to lock up hundreds of millions of dollars on a server?
15:10
Deleted Account
at least, i need someone who can do this
15:11
Zack
I believe you don't know what a market is.
You realize that making a bet in a horse race is different from opening up a race track for other to bet at, right?
15:12
Making a bet is easy and simple for everyone.
Running a public server where thousands of strangers can trade in real time at a market price is not easy or simple.
15:15
Deleted Account
yes, my understanding is incomplete and a want to improve it
however, new question is not something like opening up a race track
rather, it is something like organizing betting service for other existing track
15:16
Zack
Victor is a troll right?
15:18
Maybe my English is not good enough, so we have some misunderstanding
15:29
Alex C
i think he is trying to say that any user that would like to ask a question, (not set up a full on market), will have a hard time doing, because they do not understand the technical side.
http://amoveobook.com/ is not that easy to use either Victor?
15:36
Deleted Account
Yes, i didn't understand how to ask a new question.
http://amoveobook.com/ has a field "Request A Market", but I'm not sure what it does. If it is a field for quesions, then some payment needed afaik
15:39
And even if it is for new questions, it is still unclear, who will organize betting on requested question
15:43
*ethic (intead of moral, I would say)
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17:34
Alex C
It has VEO coins
22:52
Mr Flintstone
it is strange to me that people always say financial derivatives increase the price volatility of the underlying
22:53
when history tells us the exact opposite
22:55
amoveo stablecoins are not really dependent on anyone else like DAI is, so they do not have these kinds of problems
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01:09
Zack
They used backwards logic like that to make onion futures illegal. It is an old story.
01:14
Mr Flintstone
yeah that case is incredible
01:17
Zack
I think it is ethical to do insider trading.
01:19
Every financial derivative has margins.
if the price exceeds the margin, then you are no longer protected from risk by holding the stablecoin asset.
Amoveo's advantage is that we allow customization of the contracts, you can do any margin you are willing to pay for.
This way users only buy as much risk protection as they need, and this saves them money.
02:28
Zack
I am thinking we should try and do this hard update at 47000.
07:10
What's the target UTC
07:16
Zack
687 blocks from now, 130 blocks per day.
is about 5.3 days.
It is currently 11:15 PM in UTC time.
0.3 days is 7.2 hours.
So I guess it will be around 6:30 AM in UTC time
07:18
Hopefully Germany and USA will be in daytime during the update.
I guess we should do it like 8 hours later than that, so it will be morning in USA and afternoon in Germany.
07:19
8/24 * 130 is about 43.
So I guess we should od the update at 47043
07:19
O K
Either works for me, thank you
08:28
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/pull/213You can see the changes for this hard update here.
I have merged this update into the master branch.
I have successfully synced all the historical blocks with this code.
Every full node needs to be updated between now, and about 5.5 days from now.
09:36
Zack
We haven't found any blocks since the update.
I am worried something is going wrong with the mining pools and this update.
@Simon3456 did you already update Sy?
09:39
its like 2 AM in germany. I doubt sy updated yet. probably it is just luck that prevented us from finding a block for an hour.
09:54
Zack
we found more blocks, everything is fine.
12:27
How does amoveo sidestep this? By matching bets directly?
12:33
Zack
channels are bad for use cases like lotteries.
If every person needs to be able to win much more than they can lose, then channels are not a good design.
Amoveo is for financial derivatives. The vast majority of popular financial derivative contracts only have 2 sides of the contract that you can participate in.
Channels are an ideal platform for these kinds of derivatives where there are only 2 ways you can participate.
12:45
Tarrence van As
Gotcha. Makes sense.
12:47
In the financial derivatives case it requires the hub to be able to directly match bets right? So they are not always the counter party?
12:48
Zack
I don't understand the question.
12:48
Amoveo only has financial derivatives, I don't know what "financial derivative case" means.
12:49
Also, I am not sure what you mean by counter-party
12:52
Tarrence van As
My understanding is that a hub has to match every bet using their own collateral. The white paper mentioned that it is possible to free up the hubs collateral by directly matching the bettors using hash time locks
12:53
Seems that part is critical to avoid the issue in that tweet?
12:53
Zack
im not sure what a "hash time lock" is.
Amoveo uses hashlocking to make lightning payments, the same way lightning payments work for bitcoin.
We could also use hashlocking to move a smart contract from one path to a different path, usually we would want to move it to a shorter path.
12:54
a channel hub that is running a market would be making bets in single price batches with the customers. it makes opposite bets with different customers, that way the hub doesn't have any risk.
12:55
We will soon allow users to make OTC bets directly with each other, without having to involve a market at all.
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23:10
Zack
I don't own that server any more.
23:11
It was a really old contract. The terms were bad. Computers are cheaper now.
23:20
enti
ok switching :)
00:11
Blue Hills
What are the new urls for the wallet and block explorer?
00:21
Blue Hills
That one refuses to connect
00:28
Zack
some browsers block any website without https, maybe this is blocking you.
The site loads for me.
00:30
Blue Hills
It loaded for me too in the past no problem. Same browser same computer
00:51
Blue Hills
Zack I was assuming based on this telegram post others were having issues with it being offline too
00:53
Blue Hills
That one works
00:53
Blue Hills
I didn't notice the change from 159.89... ->159.65....
04:38
enti
what's up with all this hashrate moving from veopool to amoveopool ? 😅
05:36
Mr Flintstone
this is gonna be amazing
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11:25
Mike
Yep and that’s our opportunity
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19:54
enti
mmm... who's selling so low 😐
23:09
a p
Damn FPGAs... They don't care about anything, they just sell as soon as they can... Gonna destroy VEO :-(
23:09
enti
yep, kinda auto sell everything
23:14
O K
Again, proof? The other coins with dual miners have not experienced these problems that I've seen
23:14
I'm glad things are maturing, I can't wait for ASICs!
23:17
Zack
This problem becomes less and less as more ethereum dual miners become available.
It is like how you can buy lard so cheap in the American southwest.
There is a huge pork industry, and most people don't want to eat the fat, so lard is a byproduct.
As the pork industry grows, it actually drives the price of lard lower.
Similarly, if there are ethereum dual miners, and the ethereum market is much bigger than the altcoin market, then Veo becomes a byproduct of producing Eth. This means that the bigger the Eth market is, it drives the price of VEO lower.
23:17
I wonder if someone will build an FPGA dual miner.
23:17
a p
What proof do you need? If I jad an fpga I'd also autoexchange to btc, at least until I break even, cause they're very expensive. And breaking even might take a long time with current prices..
23:18
enti
well... -45% in 1 week, within a bullish market 😅
23:18
a p
Fpgas are already capable not only dual mining but more than dual, and that will come as well..
23:19
enti
92% sell trades on a1exchange, from recently mined coins (checked on the explorer)
23:19
[Riki]
Not really more expensive, even cheaper than a good gpu rig.
23:20
Zack
even if miners sell 100% of their tokens, that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Specialization in economies is good. The type of person who can benefit from mining is different from the kind of person who can benefit from investing.
23:21
O K
My GPU mining returns on hashrate have been pretty close to what they were a month ago anyway. A little less, but still good.
23:21
Oh, I guess they are complaining about the price, not the returns.
23:21
Sounds like the people complaining are the ones selling right away 😂
23:22
enti
not really, but surprised by the gap this week and the lack of buyers
23:22
a p
Not true. One BCU is 4000 without taxes. Potential 25 ghs equals to 10 1070s and those 1070s cost only 2500$ tops on second market... Not to mention gpus can be repurposed..
23:23
[Riki]
Omg veo price is going down. Is the oracle safe? Omg veo price is going up, binance rumors?
23:24
Blackminer price wasnt 2500 usd?
23:24
a p
No but it uses much more power
23:26
O K
Prices fluctuate
23:27
[Riki]
FPGA Altcoin Miner Blackminer F1
$2,550.00 $2,500.00
New in stock
Shipping within 3 days after payment
23:28
enti
the main problem of the FGPAs is the resell value
23:29
[Riki]
If you have low power costs, fpga does not offer a substantially better deal than gpus for mining veo. Add resale value of fpga as a negative factor + low flexibility of mining other algos. This fpga is not wow.
23:31
So much misinformation. Veo price is above what it was weeks ago.
23:32
Waiting for zack to come asking "are these guys trolls?" 😄
00:06
Mr Flintstone
we need to satisfy at most 100 veo per day in sell pressure from miners regardless of how many fpga there are
00:13
A K
BCU1525 is 18 gh/s @ 180 watts
00:13
CVP13 is 29 ghs @ 380 watt
00:14
I think pools can actually check if they're already mining
00:14
any worker above 1080Ti level, say 6 gh/s, is suspect?
00:15
A worker could be a combination of a dozen 1080ti
00:15
enti
can't know if it's a rig of 3 GPUs or 1 FGPA you know
00:17
A K
well, than pools can't check )
00:17
anyways I agree FPGAs don't affect the sell pressure
03:31
Sy
are farms still running ETH GPUs with the asic available?
03:44
So many set-it-and-forget-it miners on ETH
03:45
probably true, there is still minal profit in eth mining
03:50
although every ETH farm would make more money just mining VEO xD
03:51
Zack
If every eth farm switched, they would all be losing money
03:51
O K
Every ETH farm would make more money mining probably just about anything that is not ETH
03:51
ETH is "the default"
03:51
they are usually heavily OCed towards higher memory and lower core tho
04:08
Deleted Account
So we should all change to the dual miner? I think its a good thing right? we get more hashrate at a lower price?
04:09
O K
Certain people should. Not everyone.
04:09
I prefer as much veo hashrate as possible
04:10
Plus can't cut power consumption with dual miner
05:00
Sy
its a minus for every veo miner, a plus for every eth miner if they can handle the added watt and heat
05:01
the 1 GH you loose on veo with a 1080ti is worth more than the 11 MH you get on ETH
05:02
Zack
I guess if dual miners become an issue, we would have to switch to a memory hard pow
05:02
I expect that computation hard algorithms will be preferable once we get to the asic stage, so hopefully we won't have to switch.
05:06
Sy
i wouldnt change a thing, diff adjusts fast enough, additional hashrate is what the network wants right?
05:06
lets wait and see...
05:07
Zack
The worry is that if memory pow is too valuable, then computation pow might become an economic byproduct.
The same way lard is a byproduct of the pork industry.
If pork gets more popular, it drives the price of lard lower.
05:08
Sy
it has always been like that...thats nothing new
05:08
claymores dualminer was the first, until now nobody made one for veo thats all
05:08
Zack
Dual miner is new.
Computation pow wasn't a byproduct until the dual miner existed.
05:09
Sy
Claymore's Dual Ethereum AMD+NVIDIA GPU Miner v12.0 (Windows/Linux)
April 11, 2016, 03:30:36 PM
05:09
over 2 years is not new in crypto...
05:09
Zack
Amoveo is less than 1 year old. Claymore doesn't work for Veo.
05:09
Sy
you said dual miners are new
05:09
Sy
they arent, you just didnt know that any core focused coin can be mined as a byproduct for memory hard coins
05:10
implementing veo is kinda trivial if you got a dual miner
05:10
Zack
I knew about dual miners before launching amoveo.
05:10
Sy
it was crystal clear that this would happen...
05:10
how fast did you think asics would be made?
05:10
Zack
I knew this would happen, and have been worried about it since March.
05:11
Sía coin even published a blog post about how dual mining hurt them so bad
05:11
Sy
i dont think much will happen tbh
05:11
sia got asic raped, not dual mined
05:11
every eth farm out there could switch to veo at any point and earn more money, yet they didnt so im pretty sure they wont switch to a dual miner either
05:12
kale could come back with 120th+ aswell...
05:15
Zack
I don't try to predict things like that.
05:16
Sy
hmm so picking a core algo was a gamble
05:17
Zack
I wanted to optimize for the asic stage, since if amoveo succeeds, that stage would last the longest.
05:17
It seems to me that computation pow type Asics are a lot easier to build
05:18
you might be able to build an easier one with your dev reward...
05:18
especially if you can get one of the fpga bitstreams
05:19
Zack
I don't have any experience with producing hardware
05:20
I'm happy to participate in dominant assurance contracts to produce some open source tools that are needed for making Asics
05:45
O K
Sia made bad decision after bad decision
06:10
Zack
So maybe dual miners won't be an issue.
06:16
Alan Tretech
I do have one and havnt sold a single coin ive mined
06:16
Havnt mined this :)
06:16
wouldnt sell it either if i did
06:17
you probably better off forking to something like progpow or MTP
06:17
although jury is out on MTP. I personally feel an fpga can do it
06:17
and very buggy right now
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11:19
O K
The block reward is approximately 0.641 * 1.2 every 11 minutes right now
11:19
It can change with on chain governance
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13:57
Deleted Account
wait did block reward increase
14:48
Blue Hills
Hey guys, so I am using the online wallet and am confused on how to send amoveo to an exchange. I do "get key from file" then select my private key, then enter the address I want to send to and have it calculate max then spend. It even spits out a tx id afterwards
14:48
Zack
What's your pubkey?
14:49
Blue Hills
BIEIqwuy22lVv605smLNX8L/dLxsIUnepW/M/0UfiJ7R5kuIW/zF64Wi2RkfbtgTihoZVC9NG75dnZEKc0UbMSY=
14:57
Blue Hills
Thank goodness under my own accord. Thanks for help anywayas
15:29
A K
Original ETH ASIC from bitmain (E3) didn't offer any power efficiency improvement over GPUs , only dollar cost. Very much unlike Bitcoin ASICs.
15:34
Ben
@Malaclypse the Bitmain E3 was not a typical ASIC, it was a BOX with massive DRAM
15:35
That's why GPUs still mining ETH
15:52
Sy
ah okay, didnt know
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22:59
Zack
If other blockchains are considering a hard update, we should make futarchy markets to find out if the update is a good idea.
Then everyone from the other blockchain will come look at amoveo markets.
23:12
Gregory
need simple interface to make bets
00:13
Eli W
The new twitter post by
Zack, 45 min ago, “My biggest inspirations for working on amoveo”, is Christmas gift 🎁
00:26
Shaun
That's a great idea Zack
00:42
🅰͢͢͢🅽🅳🆁🅴🅸
perfectly
02:25
A K
FPGAs prefer amoveopool )
02:38
Sy
probably...increased fee incoming xD
05:48
Zack
I have a plan on what we can do if dual mining becomes a problem.
We can have 2 mining algorithms, one for memory and one for computation. We can have a governance variable to choose the ratio of how much rewards are paid for each kind of work.
That way once asic is available, we can switch to 100% computation.
06:15
O K
It's nice to have plans but let's not fix problems without evidence they exist (I think it's a good plan for the record).
06:17
Андрюхин
right now FPGA is not so profitable to mine veo. 18Ghs\s is about 4 1080tis, but on other bitstreams they could get about 10-15 1080ti's performance
06:18
Ben
my FPGA does 46 GH/s
06:18
Андрюхин
what kind of FPGA do you have ?
06:18
Zack
yes, exactly.
It seems to me that the price has been hurting since the dual miner was made, even though it isn't a problem yet. I was hoping that if we have a plan in place, this will settle investor fears.
06:18
Андрюхин
what the price ?
06:19
Moe ⛏
interesting that the F1 gives 1.6x more hashrate than the cvp13 when its > 50% cheaper
06:19
Андрюхин
damn, I bougt BCU-1525 for 3600$ and got only 18Ghs bitsteam
06:20
O K
What do you mean it got deleted?
06:20
Moe ⛏
f1 uses k7 325 chip?
06:20
Ben
my comment was gone from telegram
@potat_o
06:21
Zack
I deleted it because he was saying blatant lies without evidence.
06:21
O K
I really think you're assuming causation here. I don't think that many people are using the dual miner.
06:21
Ben is a big investor in amoveo, I think censorship is probably not a good policy
06:23
Zack
Here is one of the multiple times I explained the economic justification for why dual miners can cause problems.
Ben
06:24
Ben
yeah, i read it but as usually you overthink such things
06:25
Moe ⛏
trying to understand the price difference, Ben, so is the F1 doesnt have as many devs working on bitstreams or something?
06:25
Ben
the F1 has more dev's working
06:25
they have the most bitstreams out yet
06:25
and without DEV fee's
06:26
Moe ⛏
can you explain the price difference then?
06:26
Ben
very simple they rely on last gen chips without a lot of ram. means you will never miner X16r or somthing with it
06:27
Moe ⛏
still, censorship is not the answer imo , im sure thats a huge reason we are all in crypto to begin with
06:28
O K
The block reward stays the same regardless
06:28
ASICs will secure the network most efficiently
06:28
Ben
yeah but you will see the GPU miner dimish
06:28
Zack
@potat_o you think this is a valuable conversation? He is saying that veo never had a chance, it was always a failure.
Why would someone who thinks VEO never had a chance be a "big investor" as OK seems to think he is?
06:28
O K
Why do we need GPU miners specifically?
06:29
Moe ⛏
isnt that just a natural step towards asics
06:29
O K
I don't "think" he is a big investor. This is well known.
06:29
I think the conversation is passé though
06:29
To answer your question
06:29
Ben
GPU is in my eye best way to decentralize
06:30
O K
This was a big topic in march, at this point it's a bit late
06:30
Ben
but of course everyone is entitled to have his own opinion.
06:30
Moe ⛏
even if everyone is using the same mining pool?