Amoveo โฅ๐งฟ
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1 November 2018
Z
10:40
Zack
Maybe we can DDOS Sy's node to prevent mining to save him from wasting money
10:40
is that illegal?
OK
10:40
O K
And in the mean time learn how to harden vs ddos?
10:41
In reply to this message
Is there a victim if you tackle someone to save them from being hit by a train?
Z
10:41
Zack
im pretty sure Sy's mining pool full nodes are the most hardened part of Amoveo
10:41
plenty of victimless things are crimes
OK
10:41
O K
Depends how you define crime I guess
Z
10:49
Zack
Looks like veoscan is mixing together blocks from both sides of the fork
10:50
What really confuses me is how it says 39519 was mined by veopool.pw
When veopool.pw is still on 39515
When veopool.pw is still on 39515
OK
10:51
O K
Hmm...
Z
10:52
Zack
My full node says that veopool mined 39521
10:54
Somehow Sy is mining blocks on both sides.
I am guessing that Sy's mining pool has multiple full node back ends, and only some are updated.
That way he automatically switches, as long as more than 1/2 the network switches.
I am guessing that Sy's mining pool has multiple full node back ends, and only some are updated.
That way he automatically switches, as long as more than 1/2 the network switches.
M
10:56
Mike
You sure about the tweet?
IP
10:56
I P
sy after he wakes up
10:56
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
๐, 29.9 KB
Z
M
10:57
Mike
Ok
Z
10:58
Zack
It seems like Sy built something cool for recovering from forks
IP
10:59
I P
In reply to this message
but he still lost money though
but if his system accounts for that
he could underpay those miners next time if they continue to mine on his pool to balance out
but if his system accounts for that
he could underpay those miners next time if they continue to mine on his pool to balance out
Z
11:01
Zack
only like 4 block rewards. 0.6 * 4 is about 2.4 veo.
Way better than it could have been
Way better than it could have been
IP
11:04
I P
In reply to this message
still about 300$ of losses. around an average monthly wage here in russia
Z
11:05
Zack
veopool charges 2.5%
They have about 1/2 the hashpower, so in a day they find about 50 veo.
So that is more than 1 veo per day of profit.
They have about 1/2 the hashpower, so in a day they find about 50 veo.
So that is more than 1 veo per day of profit.
MF
11:05
Mr Flintstone
cool
IP
Z
11:06
Zack
true, it is hard to guess what is costs could be
11:06
I spend $5 a month on my mining pool.
IP
Z
11:09
Zack
about a week ago.
11:09
I charge 0% fees
IP
11:13
I P
btw anyone tried latest sapling upgrade? seems cool
11:14
would be cool for amoveo to have privacy features
MF
11:15
Mr Flintstone
any thoughts on using privacy features for on chain scalability zack. idk much
Z
11:16
Zack
I like mimble wimble a lot. I think it can combine with channels so that the quantities of veo in each channel are private.
AK
11:16
A K
Veo needs privacy for sure
IP
11:16
I P
i know very little about mimble wimble but it looks cool
AK
11:16
A K
Otherwise some might be afraid to bet
IP
11:17
I P
btw grin/beam when do they start mainnet mining?
MF
IP
11:19
I P
still right now only zk-snarks are code ready and tested. i guess mimblewimble will take some time to catch
AK
11:19
A K
What about Monero though
MF
11:19
Mr Flintstone
i wonder if we should have a market about the security of the zcash ceremony
IP
11:20
I P
idk monero usability could be better
MF
11:20
Mr Flintstone
not enough liquidity for anyone to be incentivized to share such a privileged secret tho
AK
11:20
A K
It is better than zec
11:20
At least until sapling
IP
11:20
I P
with sapling upgrade zec is killing it
M
11:21
Mike
If you directed your mining farm at a pool that took 100% for charity, I wonder if it would be deductible.
Z
11:21
Zack
what is nice about mimble wimble is that it is only using crypto that already exists, and the memory requirements stay small.
Every other design that makes quantities private ends up with a huge database much bigger than bitcoin.
Every other design that makes quantities private ends up with a huge database much bigger than bitcoin.
IP
11:21
I P
tried today on veruscoin (komodo fork which is zec fork)
11:21
0.4 seconds to make tadr to zsapl adr txn
AK
11:21
A K
On a 9900k? )
MF
11:21
Mr Flintstone
what do the mimble wimble haters say
OK
11:22
O K
What haters?
IP
MF
11:22
Mr Flintstone
of course there are haters
M
11:22
Mike
Grinโs forum is very good to read
MF
11:22
Mr Flintstone
anything deviating from the One True Chain will have its haters
AK
11:23
Wait which one though
11:23
Sorry couldn't resist
OK
11:24
O K
It's OTC approved, for doomed to fail 'testnet' (mainnet), to later be integrated into the OTC if successful of course
MF
11:24
Mr Flintstone
lol was a comment about hardline btc maximalists
OK
11:24
O K
Mine too, but poorly phrased
IP
11:24
I P
btc maximalists are fucking asses
11:25
right about to get rpd
OK
11:25
O K
Takes one to know one
11:25
:b
IP
11:26
I P
i mean we all like and use btc..
AK
11:26
A K
What was that hard update about anyway
IP
11:26
I P
ok maybe don't like but use anyways ok
AK
11:26
A K
Anything worth grinding an axe?
MF
OK
11:26
O K
Lol
AK
11:27
A K
So maybe miners are against ?
MF
11:27
Mr Flintstone
they can go mine an altcoin if they are against
OK
11:27
O K
I don't think it was deliberate
11:27
I don't think anyone cared
AK
11:27
A K
Ok ok
MF
11:27
Mr Flintstone
yeah it was intended to be this way from the start
OK
11:28
O K
Fees are miniscule anyway
AK
11:28
A K
Amoveo forks // noone cares // fees are miniscule anyway
IP
11:28
true zakoshi vision
11:29
let's do it!
MF
11:29
Mr Flintstone
gov fees are significant imo
OK
11:29
O K
It might be good publicity
MF
11:29
Mr Flintstone
full blocks burns like 80% of the block reward lmao
11:29
depending on tx composition
OK
11:29
O K
We can set up a roger ver lookalike
11:29
Make it comedy
AK
11:29
A K
And send him to DiCaprio
OK
11:29
O K
Veo Cash has a ring
IP
11:30
I P
In reply to this message
also jihan so that ver has a dick to suck on and a puppet craig so that fake jihan has someone to fist in
AK
11:30
A K
Guys wow all the hate
11:31
I think I still have some bitcoin cash is ok if I hang in here? )
OK
11:31
O K
I wasnt trying to express hatred, for the record
11:31
I have some too
AK
11:31
A K
Hugs
IP
MF
11:31
Mr Flintstone
this is a judgement free zone except people that have xrp
OK
11:31
O K
๐ค
AK
11:31
A K
๐
OK
IP
OK
11:32
O K
I have the amount of xrp that is required to open an account
AK
11:32
A K
Renegade
OK
11:32
O K
I didn't know you couldn't close the account
IP
OK
11:33
O K
I tried to sell at the top only to discover that feature
IP
11:33
I P
when you simply state unpleasant facts about xrp they show up and spam ypur twitter with xrp shit
OK
11:33
O K
Twitter is a funny place
IP
11:34
I P
In reply to this message
well on bitmex you can long/short xrp without actually owning the shit.
OK
11:34
O K
I've never been on bitmex
AK
11:34
A K
It's great
OK
11:34
O K
I feel like that would be too risky for me
11:34
I will do something dumb
AK
11:34
A K
Best exchange engine imo
OK
11:34
O K
Better to stay off
Z
IP
OK
11:34
O K
But I would want to do 100x
IP
11:35
I P
In reply to this message
until it frezees and your stop don't get executed and you get liqiuidated in the middle of the night
AK
11:35
A K
Happened on all exchanges last year
IP
11:36
not even funny at this point
AK
11:36
A K
(
11:36
I wasn't for some time
11:36
But the marketmodel there is supreme
11:36
Don't use stops I guess
11:37
In crypto anyway dangerous
MF
11:38
Mr Flintstone
imagine if your money doubled when bitmex went down
AK
11:48
A K
Veopool shows correct hash rate ?
Z
11:49
Zack
I think that is the hashrate just for their pool
AK
11:57
A K
21 though? Above 50% significantly?
Z
11:58
Zack
I think Sy came up with a different algorithm for calculating hashrate
SS
13:13
Spike Spiegel
I'm thinking of making a tool like email embedded into amoveo.
Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.
Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.
T
15:00
Topab
Besides high fees for opening markets, what are the reasons keeping Augur usability so low?
S
16:04
Sy
good morning
16:04
seems like this was an interesting night
16:04
even though both nodes were on the new code, the primary node for the pool managed to create a fork
16:05
i will leave it in that state for now, zack might want some logs
16:05
interestingly enough the backup node choose to stay on the currently "right" chain, once that one got ahead the pool switched nodes and the pool was back in business
16:05
shouldnt have happened in the first place tho...
16:07
and no, i dont use my own way to calculate the hashrate...
IP
16:21
I mean you managed to update in the first place
S
17:10
Sy
I doubt it, shit happens
18:45
Deleted Account
Hi guyz
18:45
other exchanges expecting soon?
18:45
the recent ones are not so good :)
18:46
or CMC listing ?
IP
18:48
When binance
18:49
Deleted Account
whats funny mate?
IP
18:49
I P
You are
18:49
Deleted Account
you are saying recent exchanges are good?
18:49
qtrade?
IP
18:49
I P
They work just fine
18:49
I had no issues with them
18:50
Deleted Account
no liquidity, crappy exchanges at all and untrustfull
18:50
so got it, no incoming exchanges
18:50
or even CMC, seems marketing is close to zero
S
18:53
Sy
and you are here why?
18:53
Deleted Account
mining
18:53
and wondering what is coming
18:54
so asking simple question like exchanges and CMC
18:54
any roadmap or something?
S
18:57
Sy
check github docs, there is enough to read
18:57
qtrade is working fine, others wont implement anytime soon i think since its all custom code, cmc will come once qtrade gets added
18:57
you are here in early development, get used to it
18:57
if you want a finished product come back in a year
18:57
maybe ๐
19:00
afk rewriting the import of the explorer...
19:39
Deleted Account
when will it be switched to mveo everywhere
19:40
mveo feels better
19:40
mentally
19:40
even for users
19:43
i think people are used to use numbers that are bigger than 1 , 5 usd 100usd etc
19:51
like 0.00003584btc too hard to remember until i learn to count it as 3584 sats. but many people still see it as 0.00003584 .
M
20:27
Minieep21
There is no need for mVeo
Tv
20:30
Tarrence van As
How do I set โDescriptionโ and โLocationโ on Veoscan node list?
S
20:32
Sy
it was at mveo, nobody really cared, keep it as it is
20:32
message catweed for veoscan infos @tarrencev
Tv
Tv
21:30
Tarrence van As
The blocks endpoint returns a trees data structure that looks like
["trees", 8, 1, 1, 1, 92]. I see in the code it corresponds to [accounts, channels, existence, oracles, governance], but what do the intโs represent?
Z
21:30
Zack
Those are pointers to locations on the hard drive of the node that generated it.
21:30
so different full nodes will have different integers here
21:31
They point to the root node of the merkel trees
23:24
Deleted Account
I am mining to my qtrade address btw, coins will come when they fix their wallet?
IP
23:27
how freakin lazy or dumb a person must be to not use the light node
23:27
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
if you dont have any answer you just dont answer okay?
23:27
be manner and dont call me lazy or dump? whats wrong with you exactly??
23:28
I was running nice last days but just saw their wallet is out, wondering what will hapen after fix
23:29
so if you cant be helpfull so shut up
23:29
because I pointed 360 gpu mining this
23:29
:)
OK
23:29
O K
They say it is okay to mine to your qtrade address but that they don't recommend it
23:30
If you're missing a payment more than 10 mveo I would try them in their channel on the discord
IP
23:30
I P
and the worst part of this all is that a person with 360 gpus is either lazy or dumb to mine to exchange address and does not even understand why it is hard for big exchanges to adopt veo in the first place
23:30
Deleted Account
yeah, yeah coins are coming, but dont know what will happen now when wallet not working, first time using qtrade
23:30
I P just dont talk to me, please
23:32
In reply to this message
maybe is normal do dont know it while I know Amoveo from 5 days, isnt it ??
IP
23:33
Deleted Account
still dont have time to do it
23:33
tell me whats your problem?
23:33
as I said, just dont talk to me
23:34
seems you cant imagine I dont want to hodl it..
IP
23:37
Deleted Account
get a life, go on holiday, maybe you will not be pissed off from nothing then
Mโ
23:52
Moe โ via @gif
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M
23:57
Mike
360 gpus mining to an exchange address?
2 November 2018
Mโ
00:04
Moe โ
In reply to this message
glad everything worked out, we were sweating you for a minute
S
00:09
Sy
๐
00:10
i lost a few blocks there when it forked
00:10
too bad both chains sort off found blocks at the same speed or it would have switched to the backup node earlier
IP
Z
00:29
Zack
This is a place to discuss amoveo. IP, Mike and miti should move their rap battle to PM.
[
00:42
[Riki]
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S
00:46
Shaun
Oh geez, just had time to read TG messages. Seems like it's been a long day for most of you. Glad it's all sorted out now ๐
M
02:26
Mike
In reply to this message
I donโt know. I just remember the old exchanges like cryptsy and mintpal always had โDO NOT MINE TO THIS ADDRESSโ everywhere
02:28
Deleted Account
both exchanges work that way and I am not holding the VEO, just simple way :)
02:28
mine and dump
M
IP
04:37
there are more profitable coins right now
S
05:23
at least none publicly known
AK
05:25
A K
Suqa?
05:26
Raven could've been at times, I think
GJ
05:45
Guillermo Joya
Hey guys and gals ? Anymore NYC events planned.
S
A
06:35
Aries
Disregard Halloween, Aquire Veos.
T
07:31
Topab
Augur seems to be increasing volume https://twitter.com/econoar/status/1058014211408781313?s=19
07:31
Perhaps latest ux updates helped to that
Mโ
07:48
Moe โ
We dont care about UX at amoveo, not important ๐
[
07:49
[Riki]
they have ux, we have github
OK
08:04
O K
Great
Z
08:05
Zack
Augur's design is excessively expensive compared with Amoveo.
They really don't stand a chance as competitors.
They really don't stand a chance as competitors.
08:06
They have lots of money to throw around and act important, but that doesn't make up for an expensive product.
MF
08:51
Mr Flintstone
it isnโt very expensive right now
08:51
definitely more expensive than it should be but not prohibitive
08:52
at some point itโll get bad tho I think
Z
08:53
Zack
The major cost is in convincing people to hold Rep.
As long as people hold it speculatively, it will seem affordable.
As long as people hold it speculatively, it will seem affordable.
MF
08:53
Mr Flintstone
they flipped to a burn model for fees which makes PV calc more difficult I feel
Z
08:54
Zack
Ultimately, this is like a business.
Costs can only exceed revenue for a limited time.
Costs can only exceed revenue for a limited time.
MF
08:54
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
so it is harder to value than if you can do a dcf on future earnings
Z
08:55
Zack
burning rep is exactly identical to distributing it to current rep holders
MF
08:55
Mr Flintstone
if the Nash equilibrium is low amounts of betting then the only reason to hold rep is the buy and burn
08:56
idk the exact way they do the auction
Z
08:57
Zack
burning is often preferable to distributing, because you edit less data. it is faster to compute.
OK
Z
09:03
Zack
Selling at a loss can be a good strategy to quickly gain brand recognition and market dominance.
But it can only work if you are able to eventually switch to a profitable strategy.
But it can only work if you are able to eventually switch to a profitable strategy.
T
09:07
Topab
In reply to this message
are bets in rep or eth? if in eth only then rep truly do not have any value
JS
T
10:00
Topab
if rep is not used in bets, was just a funrising thing or is used for something else?
10:13
I will ask in their telegram better
Z
10:13
Zack
in Augur, rep is used to report the result for the oracle.
It is based on Paul Sztorc's oracle design from truthcoin/bitcoin hivemind.
It is based on Paul Sztorc's oracle design from truthcoin/bitcoin hivemind.
T
10:13
Topab
Then it has a value because you can lose it
Z
10:14
Zack
So the trading fees need to be high enough to pay the rep-reporters enough so that they expect to make more profit by taking fees instead of from cheating in a market.
That is where rep's value comes from, they get trading fees.
That is where rep's value comes from, they get trading fees.
10:14
Another problem with that design is parasite contracts.
Someone could make contracts that reference the oracle's state, and don't pay trading fees.
If the reporters don't get paid trading fees, then their nash equilibrium switches to cheating on the outcome of an oracle to rob a market.
Someone could make contracts that reference the oracle's state, and don't pay trading fees.
If the reporters don't get paid trading fees, then their nash equilibrium switches to cheating on the outcome of an oracle to rob a market.
T
10:16
Topab
If you lose your rep by cheating the oracle you lose it so no incentive to cheat
Z
10:16
Zack
We realized this after Augur had already went into debt for the ICO, and once the Rep tokens were sold, it was no longer possible to abandon the investors and go with a different design.
This is a large part of the reason I left Augur.
This is a large part of the reason I left Augur.
10:17
In reply to this message
that only works if the trading fees exceed the expected profit from cheating in the markets.
If a mechanism is broken in just one place, then the entire mechanism is broken.
If a mechanism is broken in just one place, then the entire mechanism is broken.
T
10:28
Topab
"if the trading fees exceed the expected profit from cheating in the markets", the only problem I see is that low fees for the oracle do not incentivice oracle participation. Besides that, in the case someone tries to cheat the oracle, other rep holders will participate towin those
JS
10:28
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Their โTelegram channelโ is a scam and is not run by Augur people. You can check their website.
T
10:28
Topab
๐
Z
10:32
Zack
I wrote the MVP of augur and taught them their design.
See page 27 of the bitcoin hivemind white paper. http://bitcoinhivemind.com/papers/truthcoin-whitepaper.pdf
Paul sztorc invented this design. He describes it's limitations and costs.
See page 27 of the bitcoin hivemind white paper. http://bitcoinhivemind.com/papers/truthcoin-whitepaper.pdf
Paul sztorc invented this design. He describes it's limitations and costs.
10:36
Jack and Joey have admitted this limitation, in person and online.
10:38
I think they put it in the augur white paper too. The stuff about 7.5x open interest, or whatever they call it.
They set it up so the market cap of rep is always more than 7.5x bigger than the total bets in all the markets.
They set it up so the market cap of rep is always more than 7.5x bigger than the total bets in all the markets.
EW
Z
10:40
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/progress_reports/August_2018.md
I compare amoveo with some other blockchain projects here
I compare amoveo with some other blockchain projects here
EW
10:41
Eli W
Appreciated , love to learn more ๐๐ค
10:46
Zack for crypto to replace/substitute a portion of current financial system, credit( lending/borrowing with/without collateral ) and derivatives are the two important dimensions, how will amoveo do it ( if some potion possible ) ?
Z
10:48
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/limit_order_in_channel.md
Amoveo puts derivatives inside the lightning network. This document explains how it works.
Amoveo puts derivatives inside the lightning network. This document explains how it works.
T
11:05
11:05
That does not look very sustainable if augur start getting some volume
T
12:07
Topab
I was reading the augur whitepaper and making ome calculations and yes, those two design bugs increase the risk of a succesful attack
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Tyler joined group by link from Group
Z
13:50
Zack
I've been thinking more about the email where we are financially protected from spam.
This would be such a cool tool. We wouldn't have to let big company's like Google control which emails we can see.
If we can get people using amoveo for secure communication, maybe they will try out some amoveo markets as well, since they already have the software.
This would be such a cool tool. We wouldn't have to let big company's like Google control which emails we can see.
If we can get people using amoveo for secure communication, maybe they will try out some amoveo markets as well, since they already have the software.
13:50
If make a solid back end, we can hire someone to make some pretty android app front-end
13:52
Deleted Account
financially protected as in?
Z
14:06
Zack
The sender makes a safety deposit.
if the receiver thinks it is spam, then the sender loses their safety deposit.
if the receiver thinks it is spam, then the sender loses their safety deposit.
14:07
Google spam blocker could be hijacked for political censorship.
14:08
Deleted Account
hard to say
14:08
say if we have another polarizing election
14:09
people could just be using it to indude financial losses to the opposite side
Z
14:09
Zack
You can't force someone to send you a message.
14:10
Deleted Account
but then again, they prob just would use this email to reach out for u
Z
14:10
Zack
I think vitalik has written about this idea, and Paul graham as well.
14:11
It's actually a pretty old idea, I would love to be first to build it.
14:12
Deleted Account
say if a mass email is sent
14:12
and only 1% of the ppl marks it as spam
Z
14:12
Zack
Who could afford to pay enough safety deposits to make a mass email?
14:12
Some people might set their safety deposit to $100.
14:12
Deleted Account
would it be a majority rule or does the guy pay 1%
Z
14:13
Zack
If their time is so valuable
14:13
Deleted Account
just a hypothetical situation
Z
14:13
Zack
You pay the money first, and get refunded if the receiver marks the message as non-spam.
14:15
Deleted Account
im thinking about whether or not to treat a mass email as one mail voted on by all recipients, or as many individual mails
Z
14:16
Zack
I heard that people pay $10k to eat lunch with Warren buffet. Someone like him would set their safety deposit limit very high. He doesn't have time to waste.
14:16
Deleted Account
oh
14:16
i see what u mean
14:16
the recipient determines his own safety deposit
Z
14:17
Zack
In reply to this message
I don't know what you means by "treat".
Each message sent is a different smart contract who's outcome is determined by the recipient of the message.
Each message sent is a different smart contract who's outcome is determined by the recipient of the message.
14:17
Deleted Account
so it filters the sender depending on their stake in the matter
Z
14:17
Zack
This way you can punish people who spam you.
14:18
Even $0.10 is enough to stop most spam, I bet.
14:18
Deleted Account
right
14:18
0.01 tbh
14:21
most people are prob hesitant to deposit money just for sending emails though
AK
14:39
I like the idea immensely
14:40
However I afraid at current stage no solution has chances to gain any meaningful apodtion
14:41
Esp veo
14:41
Just my 2c
14:41
I'm happy however that you Zack like it, too ) that's cool.
S
17:43
Sebsebzen
Iโm at the Augur talk at devcon now
IP
17:47
bring a big amoveo poster
17:47
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
๐, 45.4 KB
S
17:48
Sebsebzen
Haha
17:48
โBut can you do oracles in lightning channels?โ
17:48
*mic drop*
17:49
Augur seems overtly complex
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
T
19:15
Topab
There should be a place to check. Not many I'm guessing
19:29
Deleted Account
Some problems with the email idea: Both users need to use Amoveo. The system will scale with the number of users, but people would not like to use this unless 99% of the world also used the system. So it will never catch on.
19:30
Second: it needs to be integrated in thw email client. Currently I use gmail and outlook, so thats definitively a major hurdle
19:30
Third, if people dont bother to read, you lose the deposit even for a valid email (eg the recipient is dead)
AK
19:31
A K
Time lock helps here
19:32
Deleted Account
Fourth, most people are curious, and would like to read any mail if they knew it existed. Its like not emptying the trashcan if the icon shows a full trashcan, many people will accept any mail
19:33
Fifth: most people dont care if Google is filtering your mail as long as they are doing a decent job at it.
19:33
So, I would at least advise you to think this through
19:35
I think the model might work better for twitter. If enough people thought you were spam, thos people could collect your deposit
19:35
Also advertisers could pay people to look at ads in this way (but hopefully i will never live in a world where I earn money by looking at ads)
19:38
I think twitter could have been a more interesting platform if automated tweets were allowed. Paying a deposit would make the platform usable by removing spam
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
21:39
Zack
This is a place to discuss amoveo.
There is an off-topic channel in discord.
There is an off-topic channel in discord.
21:43
Tallak, that is a big wall of text. It seems like you don't understand the anti-spam mechanism.
You should ask questions first, before trying to give advice.
If you are reading a message, and you think it is spam, then you click the spam button. This would cause the person who sent the message to lose a safety deposit.
You should ask questions first, before trying to give advice.
If you are reading a message, and you think it is spam, then you click the spam button. This would cause the person who sent the message to lose a safety deposit.
Tv
23:00
Tarrence van As
Zack you mentioned previously that the ints in the response
["trees",295,1,1,3,10147] point to a location on harddrive for the tree roots. What is the practical use of those values to an external user interacting through the API? Are there endpoints that use them as inputs?
N
23:08
NM$L
OK
Z
23:26
So far Amoveo has 3 smart contracts:
1) lightning payments
2) binary derivatives
3) scalar derivatives
Here are some smart contracts I am thinking of making next:
* anti-spam safety deposit for sending messages
* satoshi dice, to trustlessly gamble veo
* a binary derivative priced in the shares from a market of scalar derivatives. So you can make a bet priced in USD for example.
1) lightning payments
2) binary derivatives
3) scalar derivatives
Here are some smart contracts I am thinking of making next:
* anti-spam safety deposit for sending messages
* satoshi dice, to trustlessly gamble veo
* a binary derivative priced in the shares from a market of scalar derivatives. So you can make a bet priced in USD for example.
Tv
23:54
Tarrence van As
I think gambling is a great vector for adoption
23:55
How would you implement a trustless RNG?
Z
23:59
Zack
both sides generate a secret random number.
They both calculate the hash of their secret, this is called the commitment.
The commitments both go in the smart contract.
Then they both reveal their secrets to unlock the contract.
you xor the secrets to generate a trustless random number.
They both calculate the hash of their secret, this is called the commitment.
The commitments both go in the smart contract.
Then they both reveal their secrets to unlock the contract.
you xor the secrets to generate a trustless random number.
3 November 2018
Z
00:00
Zack
Before Amoveo was launched I had something like this on the testnet.
I stopped maintaining that contract after Chalang got updated and broke it.
I stopped maintaining that contract after Chalang got updated and broke it.
MF
AK
Z
00:11
Zack
channels are only between 2 parties.
00:12
If you want to connect the outcomes in different channels together:
You can ask the oracle a question designed to be random, or you can use hashlocking.
You can ask the oracle a question designed to be random, or you can use hashlocking.
00:16
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/blob/master/src/forth/satoshi_dice.fs
The satoshi dice contract already exists.
I would just need to write some api to negotiate it from the light node, and I would need to embed the bytecode into the light node.
The satoshi dice contract already exists.
I would just need to write some api to negotiate it from the light node, and I would need to embed the bytecode into the light node.
00:17
but it is hard for me to get motivated about gambling.
It is easy for me to get motivated about a decentralized, spam-free, uncensorable, private, messaging system.
It is easy for me to get motivated about a decentralized, spam-free, uncensorable, private, messaging system.
Z
00:36
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/blob/master/src/forth/anti-spam.fs
I think this is the contract I would use to prevent spam.
I think this is the contract I would use to prevent spam.
Tv
02:20
Tarrence van As
Zack the block endpoint returns a transaction datastructure like
[
-6,
[
"coinbase",
"BKyLqCvF5vt7KBiPLId7xlW64Bb/uV+icPnvn5mgEKncqlCKiaXUTkRcZv7iYK3GKxSspNh0leIhc4YA+DJAY/s=",
0,
0
]
]
02:20
What does the -6 refer to?
Z
02:20
Zack
That means it is encoding a list, not a tuple.
02:21
It is a list of the txs from that block
Tv
02:21
Tarrence van As
I see, are those erlang semantics?
Z
02:21
Zack
No. It is a custom Json encoding
Tv
02:21
Tarrence van As
Gotcha. What does
-7 refer to?
Z
02:22
Zack
Tuples.
Tv
02:22
Tarrence van As
Cool, thanks
Z
02:22
Zack
Tuples and lists are native erlang data structures
Tv
02:22
Tarrence van As
So you have a custom encoder so you can deserialize back into native datastructures?
Z
02:23
Zack
It is mostly the jiffy library, with small customizations
A
04:45
Aries
Hmmm
04:46
Elections are coming up ๐ค
04:46
Elections + Prediction Markets + Veos
Z
04:48
Zack
What is the most controversial thing being voted for?
Let's make a market.
Let's make a market.
07:38
Deleted Account
Bad question
CH
10:59
Chris Hortski
Is anyone running a full node planning on doing a market for zack to do hbo dicaprio series? Or are we steering the ship another way to pick who to represent amoveo?
PickACrypto invited PickACrypto
๐
ฐอขอขอข๐
ฝ๐
ณ๐๐
ด๐
ธ invited ๐
ฐอขอขอข๐
ฝ๐
ณ๐๐
ด๐
ธ
Igor Efremov invited Igor Efremov
AK
19:59
A K
wow diff shoots up
19:59
doubled
Z
20:02
Zack
Difficulty is jumping around a lot.
I wonder if someone is probing for an exploit to mine cheap Veo.
We should be secure against that now, since the difficulty retargets so fast.
I wonder if someone is probing for an exploit to mine cheap Veo.
We should be secure against that now, since the difficulty retargets so fast.
AK
20:22
A K
it seems we have at least 3 independent big miners
20:22
it also seems they canโt coordinate to exploit diff algo
20:22
prisoners dilemma or smth )
Zam Zami Zulkifli joined group by link from Group
Z
23:08
Zack
difficulty only increased 50% in the last 24 hours. before that it was decreasing.
it didn't double.
it didn't double.
23:09
I guess it doubled since 4 days ago
N
23:13
NM$L
then, price will double
Z
23:14
Zack
I think it is the other way around.
hashrate reacts to price
hashrate reacts to price
N
23:23
NM$L
23:24
Is it trusted๏ผ
Z
23:26
Zack
I haven't seen this before. I would not trust this.
23:26
They should make posts on our forums and let us review their code.
DV
23:27
Denis Voskvitsov
we will, it's like in beta test right now
Z
23:28
Zack
oh, it is from Denis.
Yes, he has shown me some of his code before.
I haven't reviewed all of it, but Denis has been in our community a long time.
I would trust Veo Wallet with small amounts of Veo.
Yes, he has shown me some of his code before.
I haven't reviewed all of it, but Denis has been in our community a long time.
I would trust Veo Wallet with small amounts of Veo.
N
Z
23:29
Zack
I think it is always best to keep the majority of your cryptocurrency in cold storage.
Cold storage is far superior security to anything else we could make.
Cold storage is far superior security to anything else we could make.
AK
23:31
A K
Is it a full proper wallet or a "hosted" wallet?
23:31
Priv keys on the phone only?
DV
23:32
Denis Voskvitsov
it stores keys on the device ofc and works with remote full node just to get balance and push signed transactions
23:32
keys on device are encrypted too
23:35
we'll deploy an updated build in a few days with more settings and couple of UI fixes, so you could give it a try and stay tuned for updates
Z
23:36
Zack
great work
MF
23:37
Mr Flintstone
cool
DV
23:38
Denis Voskvitsov
anyway since you've discovered ios version, there is Android one too https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.exa.amoveowallet
M
23:40
Minieep21
If you sell your VEO now, you're going to have a bad time. Nice work Denis.
S
MF
23:43
Mr Flintstone
nice job guys. this is great
DV
23:45
Denis Voskvitsov
also I totally understand that open source wallet would be more trusted, so after first few releases we'll publish the code ofc
4 November 2018
Z
00:15
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/getting-started/updating.md
I added this command so that if you forget to update for a hard update, you don't have to resync all the blocks.
I added this command so that if you forget to update for a hard update, you don't have to resync all the blocks.
Z
00:33
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/blob/master/src/forth/dead_mans_switch.fs
I programmed this dead man's switch in chalang.
I programmed this dead man's switch in chalang.
00:34
Could be useful for inheritances
MH invited MH
M
00:37
MH
hello, where can I buy VEO?
AK
00:38
M
00:41
MH
thanks
00:41
roadmap?
S
02:40
@denis_voskvitsov I also like your logo
J
+
03:14
++
In reply to this message
Not exactly. A distribution of rep might be a taxable event while company burning reserves of rep isnโt a taxable event.
M
03:43
MH
I hope devs are aware of this fragility and do something to avoid that... Admin, please share that with them, if you think it matters....thanks!
https://cointelegraph.com/news/lack-of-diversity-in-ethereum-smart-contracts-pose-risks-to-whole-ecosystem-report-says
https://cointelegraph.com/news/lack-of-diversity-in-ethereum-smart-contracts-pose-risks-to-whole-ecosystem-report-says
Z
04:13
Zack
Amoveo has a completely different smart contract language from ethereum. This report doesn't matter for us.
M
04:24
MH
In reply to this message
But the problem remais imo. Cause it is code dependency.... it affects all coders not only in blockchain....
Z
04:28
Zack
I did not reuse any ethereum code. They are not a dependency.
M
04:40
MH
The dependecy is not related to ethereum code... it is among smart contracts...
04:41
Ethereum in this case is only a example imo
04:41
Indeed a real case coz there are many SC already done there
Z
04:42
Zack
So far Amoveo has 3 smart contracts so far.
One for lightning payments, one for binary derivatives, and one for scalar derivatives.
The binary derivatives and scalar derivatives do share a lot of code.
One for lightning payments, one for binary derivatives, and one for scalar derivatives.
The binary derivatives and scalar derivatives do share a lot of code.
M
04:43
MH
The problem will begin when devs make other SCs using those 3 as parameter if they only copy blindly the code... it is a sistemic risk
04:45
I friend just suggested:
Each package of code is labeled and when a vulnerability or bug is found, it is flagged up on a database
Devs will scan their packages and cross reference them with the database
Each package of code is labeled and when a vulnerability or bug is found, it is flagged up on a database
Devs will scan their packages and cross reference them with the database
Z
04:45
Zack
yeah, if developers write broken smart contracts, then the smart contracts will be broken.
04:49
Amoveo is so different from Ethereum.
I am thinking Amoveo will end up having around 10 smart contracts, and then we will stop writing more.
Every use-case of Amoveo will be some combination of the existing contracts.
There are only so many kinds of derivatives that are useful.
I am thinking Amoveo will end up having around 10 smart contracts, and then we will stop writing more.
Every use-case of Amoveo will be some combination of the existing contracts.
There are only so many kinds of derivatives that are useful.
Z
05:59
Zack
In general, reusing working code is a better strategy than rewriting it.
If everyone rewrote everything every time, there would be a lot more bugs.
If everyone rewrote everything every time, there would be a lot more bugs.
Tv
06:17
Tarrence van As
Could amoveo support a name service like ENS or Handshake?
M
A
08:25
Aries
Rofl
Z
08:27
Zack
Let's use this forum for discussing amoveo
A
08:28
Aries
But it is
08:28
Letโs make a market
Z
09:36
Zack
I am thinking I will make shards, and have it so you can request merkel proofs from any shard. once you have all the proofs for a tx, then you can publish the tx with the proofs to any mining pool.
a spend_tx for example needs 2 proofs, one for the sender's account, and one for the receiver's account.
A custom smart contract could require a lot of proofs.
a spend_tx for example needs 2 proofs, one for the sender's account, and one for the receiver's account.
A custom smart contract could require a lot of proofs.
Soniko invited Soniko
D. invited D.
Anak Dagang invited Anak Dagang
AD
13:05
Anak Dagang
Helo brainlet here's can someone eli5 amoveo
13:05
And it's quadrillion market
13:17
In reply to this message
zack have you look into chainlink decentralized oracle project? imo tokens are not needed maybe you have an opinion on that project
16:25
Deleted Account
If the email spam requires you to click a link, why would spammers use it? Im just saying that while the idea itself is fine, the practical issues seem daunting
16:27
You need a platform where Amoveo deposits are built into the protocol. This could be possible with Twitter, and also why I suggested it...
AK
17:13
A K
Mastodon ?
Sylvinho Blanco invited Sylvinho Blanco
Nertila invited Nertila
Z
19:18
Zack
In reply to this message
The spammers will not use it. That is our goal, to not receive spam in our mail box any more.
T
21:25
Tromp
What did you mean with the tweet about derivatives on amoveo replacing tokenized assets ? Could you give an example please Zack
Z
21:26
Zack
Tether depends on a centralized company to hold a bunch of USD to be able to buy back all the tethers.
You could buy a derivative on Amoveo to cancel out your VEO risk, and be left with a risk profile the same as USD.
This allows you to own USD on the blockchain without depending on any centralized person or company.
You could buy a derivative on Amoveo to cancel out your VEO risk, and be left with a risk profile the same as USD.
This allows you to own USD on the blockchain without depending on any centralized person or company.
21:27
If you short VEO/USD just the right amount, it cancels out the risk of owning VEO
T
21:30
Tromp
Great thanks so same could be done with basically every asset
Z
21:31
Zack
If it is possible to ask the oracle about a number, then it is possible to gamble on that number's value.
21:31
you can only ask the oracle about information that is public knowledge, information that we can all easily verify.
ะญะปะปะธะพั invited ะญะปะปะธะพั
SS
23:41
Spike Spiegel
Does anyone knows Dixit board game? It's funny thing since you are betting at things other people would be betting but as challenge provider you cannot have too obvious mapping from idea to cards
Z
23:42
I don't see how it relates to amoveo
SS
23:51
Spike Spiegel
It's about solving incentive problem for curation - for asking oracle about things if answer would be 100% certain than nobody would be betting on other side so it would give no profit to somebody reporting actual outcome
Z
23:52
Zack
I think you don't understand the oracle.
If the oracle is in the wrong state, then it is necessarily profitable to do a report and move it to the correct state.
If the oracle is in the wrong state, then it is necessarily profitable to do a report and move it to the correct state.
SS
23:53
Spike Spiegel
But if it's in 50/50 state?
Z
23:53
Zack
that is the bad-question state.
If it is in the bad-question state, and the correct outcome is
If it is in the bad-question state, and the correct outcome is
true, then it is necessarily profitable to make a report to change the outcome to true.
SS
23:53
Spike Spiegel
Ie what if nobody will be interested in checking whatever something is true or not because cost of checking to potential reward would be too high?
Z
23:54
Zack
then it is a bad question. you are only supposed to ask the oracle questions that can be easily looked up.
5 November 2018
Z
01:23
Zack
Each full node comes with a javascript GUI interface for spending veo and checking your balance.
I had completely forgotten about this feature, I haven't maintained it in a long time, and I think no one wants this feature.
So I am planning to delete it soon.
I had completely forgotten about this feature, I haven't maintained it in a long time, and I think no one wants this feature.
So I am planning to delete it soon.
01:29
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo
I moved the light node to it's own repository, and I set it up as a dependency of the full node so every full node is still serving the light node.
I moved the light node to it's own repository, and I set it up as a dependency of the full node so every full node is still serving the light node.
01:43
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/archive/master.zip
Here is a link to download a zip file of the light node.
Here is a link to download a zip file of the light node.
03:01
Deleted Account
How would you users be able to receive emails from people not using amoveo (no link) but not from spammers (also no link)
Z
03:04
You can't use email to send a DM on telegram.
There are more that one noncompatible messaging systems that humans use.
This smart contract would use a new messaging system which is non-compatible with all previous messaging systems.
There are more that one noncompatible messaging systems that humans use.
This smart contract would use a new messaging system which is non-compatible with all previous messaging systems.
03:04
Maybe it would be an overlay on an existing system. Xxmp or email or telegram pm.
The overlay would only display messages that have a valid smart contract.
The overlay would only display messages that have a valid smart contract.
SS
03:25
Spike Spiegel
I would love to have censorship resistant / encrypted and privacy preserving messaging system
Tv
04:41
Tarrence van As
Is it possible to build a name service on Amoveo?
Z
04:42
Zack
amoveo is for smart contracts in channels between pairs of people.
a name system inside of channels would be very awkward.
a name system inside of channels would be very awkward.
Tv
04:45
Tarrence van As
Hmm thats what I thought.
SS
05:15
Spike Spiegel
Wouldn't UX of stablecoin implementation in Amoveo would be much worse then say MakerDAO DAI?
05:16
To create stablecoin one would need to short VEO and wait for people that want to take opposing trade ( long )
Z
05:23
Zack
All stablecoins require people taking the long and short side.
You can't destroy risk, you can only change who holds it.
You can't destroy risk, you can only change who holds it.
M
05:36
MKUltra
Zack question for you bud, if I gave you $500k-$1 million tomorrow. Do you think that would help the project or do yโall just really not need money
Z
05:37
Zack
You might be able to use that money to help Amoveo, I doubt I could.
Z
06:02
Zack
I added a tool to the light node so you can look up governance values. but if you want to try it, you have to try getting it from this github page: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo
06:03
you look up the values by number, but when it returns the name of that governance value so you know what you are looking at.
T
IP
06:41
I P
In reply to this message
i'm definitely not Zack but i think you can try to spend these money to make more educational material about amoveo so that it looks nice and understandable by regular people (i'm talking mostly about video), also conduct meetups and attract more devs to further build community
OK
08:59
O K via @gif
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
183.5 KB
OK
08:59
O K
40k blocks
IP
Z
09:01
Zack
and 8 months
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
09:50
Zack
https://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/9u9cg6/my_first_javascript_project_blockchain_light_node/
I am fishing for javascript help.
I am fishing for javascript help.
09:54
The Amoveo community is almost twice as likely to enjoy wine compared to the average twitter user.
09:55
41% of us live in houses worth more than $500k.
only 16% of twitter users live in houses that are that expensive.
only 16% of twitter users live in houses that are that expensive.
09:58
Even though 91% of us are men, women who see my posts are more likely to follow Amoveo on twitter in comparison to men who see my posts.
10:01
We need some content in Japanese.
It looks like some popular Japanese people are sharing us widely, but since they don't speak english most people don't click on it.
It looks like some popular Japanese people are sharing us widely, but since they don't speak english most people don't click on it.
s
10:46
sanket
How are you getting the data?
10:47
About AMOVEO and users
Z
10:48
Zack
twitter gives you info about your audience.
Russell invited Russell
Hashgoal invited Hashgoal
H
13:40
Hashgoal
How to mine amoveo?
Z
Deleted invited Deleted Account
N
16:23
NM$L
when cmc
T
AK
20:37
A K
veo just need to appear on any exchange listed on CMC I think
20:38
before that 0 chance
N
ล
20:39
ล ea
๐
Tv
20:54
Tarrence van As
Is there any documentation on setting up dominate assurance contracts to fund development?
BXZ invited BXZ
B
21:24
BXZ
where is pool?
[
21:25
[Riki]
billiard/pool or swimming pool?
OK
GJ
21:58
Guillermo Joya
Good Morning Everyone
Z
23:49
Zack
In reply to this message
Contact me. I can help.
We haven't done contracts like this, so there isn't much documentation yet.
We haven't done contracts like this, so there isn't much documentation yet.
6 November 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Tim Novak invited Tim Novak
Deleted invited Deleted Account
AK
03:37
A K
And now veo/eth trades above veo/btc
MF
ัฒ๐ invited ัฒ๐
S
08:28
Sebsebzen
Kucoin or Coinex would be good
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
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V K invited V K
Deleted invited Deleted Account
N
21:01
NM$L
bot enter๏ผ
AK
21:05
Alex K
Adoption )
T
21:08
Tromp
Right now every member in here can have a max of 47 veos
21:09
Let the hames begin
N
21:17
NM$L
Can we pay for listing on exchanges๏ผ
T
21:21
Tromp
In reply to this message
Shouldnt we wait till 2019 for accumulation and when there is more hype on the market?
21:21
I dont know how listings are behaving during the depressing market
AK
21:24
A K
they should be cheaper during depression )
T
[
21:25
[Riki]
Deleted Account 05.11.2018 19:50:21
Also found interesting table
AK
21:26
A K
Binance famously announced they're not taking fees for listings anymore
[
21:28
[Riki]
i think they are still taking fees but you need to make an offer
21:29
if you offer to pay 0, and they like you, you will get listed. not sure how likely that is.
SS
21:30
Spike Spiegel
BTW instead of listing for exchanges it would be nicer to bet on such event - but it may be against internal rules for exchanges to do such insider trading
AK
21:41
A K
what's insider trading here?
SS
21:46
Spike Spiegel
1. Create oracle: "will veo will be listed on { CMC, exchange 1, exchange 2} " and people actually interested in listing may bet "no" - to put their money where the mouth is.
Some person inside CMC / exchange may lobby for pro-Amoveo changes - while voting yes
Some person inside CMC / exchange may lobby for pro-Amoveo changes - while voting yes
MF
21:47
Mr Flintstone
that might be a popular market
AK
21:48
A K
good one, I see no insider trading here though
SS
21:48
Spike Spiegel
I'm afraid people aren't actually interested in listings - they will shout since it's free but paying some real money for such thing would be no for them
MF
21:48
Mr Flintstone
you could do it as any one of a set pays out and roll it monthly or something
AK
21:49
A K
well we have dev fee )
21:49
and some holders I believe..
21:49
anyway I'd say more exchanges are moving to listing based on merit
21:50
Deleted Account
amoveo markets should really be about amove not some boring presidential shit :)
21:50
create the most efficient self pump machine
SS
21:50
Spike Spiegel
That's called futatchy / capitalism :)
AK
Z
21:50
Zack
An exchange that wanted to make money by listing amoveo would do a lot better with a dominant assurance contract instead of a regular market.
MF
21:51
Mr Flintstone
currently they would need to host it iirc for a dac
21:51
Deleted Account
the exchange listing should be able to collect all the winnings
MF
21:51
Mr Flintstone
if there is already liquidity out there, they can just find out about the market
Z
21:52
Zack
I would host it for them for free
SS
21:52
Spike Spiegel
Was some DAC already deployed / tested on the mainnet?
MF
21:53
Mr Flintstone
wouldnโt you need to program the dac? Instead of modifying the existing binary option contract so only host can take one side of bets
SS
21:53
Spike Spiegel
Also btw - is there a offical testnet for amoveo?
Z
21:53
Zack
I should probably do a dac for some typical software update, just so people can see it in action and know it works.
21:54
In reply to this message
There are lots of ways to write a dac.
I think using a binary market and censoring some bets is a great first version.
I think using a binary market and censoring some bets is a great first version.
21:57
The problem with a regular binary market is that people can bet in both directions.
By limiting people to only bet in one direction, we can use it as a dominant assurance contract
By limiting people to only bet in one direction, we can use it as a dominant assurance contract
AK
21:58
sorry )
Z
21:59
Zack
In reply to this message
Integration tests launches a tiny 3-node test net on your computer.
EW
22:04
Should we do something similar ?
AK
22:20
A K
Can VEO handle 2M in bets?
22:20
would it require $2M VEO to be locked up?
Z
22:21
Zack
I don't have enough VEO to run a market with $2 M in bets.
AK
22:21
A K
so $2M in VEO would be locked, right?
Z
22:22
Zack
Currently if you run a market channel node, if you match customer's bets then you need to have as much Veo locked inside the node as is being bet.
22:22
But if people made direct channels to each other without going through the market node, then they can bet directly against each other using the same smart contract and we wouldn't have to lock up any extra VEO.
AK
22:23
A K
but they would still need to lock up $2M ?
Z
22:25
Zack
For example, if Bob and Carol are betting through Alice's server it would be like this:
Bob bets 1 at 1:2 odds, Carol bets 2 at 2:1 odds, Alice locks up 2 on the other side of Bob's contract, Alice locks up 1 on the other side of Carol's contract. In total 6 veo are in channels.
Example, Bob and Carol bet directly with each other:
Bob bets 1 at 1:2 odds, Carol bets 2 at 2:1 odds.
In total 3 veo are in channels.
Bob bets 1 at 1:2 odds, Carol bets 2 at 2:1 odds, Alice locks up 2 on the other side of Bob's contract, Alice locks up 1 on the other side of Carol's contract. In total 6 veo are in channels.
Example, Bob and Carol bet directly with each other:
Bob bets 1 at 1:2 odds, Carol bets 2 at 2:1 odds.
In total 3 veo are in channels.
22:26
Compare this with Augur:
$160 million of Rep are locked up in the contract to support $2 million of bets.
Augur's lock up ratio is currently 80x
At best they can get to 7.5x.
Amoveo at worst is 2x, and at best we can do 1x.
$160 million of Rep are locked up in the contract to support $2 million of bets.
Augur's lock up ratio is currently 80x
At best they can get to 7.5x.
Amoveo at worst is 2x, and at best we can do 1x.
AK
22:27
A K
what's the math behind 7.5x , curious
Z
22:28
Zack
Augur's white paper talks about limiting what they call the "open interest" to less than 1/7.5th of the market cap of Rep.
22:29
Augur is only secure if the total volume of bets is less than the market cap of Rep.
22:29
They did a bunch of math to decide that a 7.5x safety margin is good enough for Augur
AK
22:32
A K
ah, so arbitrarily
22:32
but this locked REP yields some interest, right?
22:32
sorry about questions re augur here, if you consider offtopic disregard
Z
22:34
Zack
The only way Rep can maintain it's value is if the profit from trading fees exceeds the lost opportunity cost of having your money locked in the contract as Rep.
Similarly, a person is only willing to run a channel node if the profit from fees exceeds to cost of leaving your VEO locked in the node.
Similarly, a person is only willing to run a channel node if the profit from fees exceeds to cost of leaving your VEO locked in the node.
SS
22:47
Spike Spiegel
How you can explain why for example ZRX have value if Relayers don't even have to use ZRX for fees and said governance is nonexisting
And token itself declares as not rent seeking
And token itself declares as not rent seeking
Z
22:48
Zack
I don't know about Ox, or what it uses ZRX for.
SS
22:50
People aren't valuing tokens on some kind of DCF method but rather hype / rumours of Coinbase listings etc...
Z
22:50
Zack
A lot of cryptocurrencies are valuable because of the greater fool hypothesis.
Even if the cryptocurrency doesn't actually create value, it can still be a good investment as long as someone else will buy it for a higher price in the future.
Even if the cryptocurrency doesn't actually create value, it can still be a good investment as long as someone else will buy it for a higher price in the future.
22:51
This sort of speculative value does not last.
22:51
Eventually there is no greater fool left to dump your worthless altcoin on.
SS
22:54
Spike Spiegel
"suppose that all cryptocurrencies are going up an average of 2% annually, but then one of these cryptocurrencies burns 0.5% of its coins annually from transaction fees. That cryptocurrency will go up an average of 2.5% annually, and so in a portfolio theory model it will be more attractive to hold larger quantities of it. Hence, in the long run we do expect the best stores of value to be things that are useful for other reasons first, and stores of value second."
22:55
If issuing currencies people care about requires some strong signal (marketing and similar stuff) - then altcoin issuance may stabilize in equilibrium
22:56
Amoveo is great in this regard since contracts providing utility to the world may extract wealth ( and burn / lock )
22:57
Is there a way to provably burn the coins?
Z
22:57
Zack
Any asset is losing value by the interest rate.
If holding the asset is less profitable than the interest rate, no one would want to hold it.
To it is better to suppose that all cryptocurrencies are losing 10% of their value a year, and we use fees and burning to overcome this loss.
If holding the asset is less profitable than the interest rate, no one would want to hold it.
To it is better to suppose that all cryptocurrencies are losing 10% of their value a year, and we use fees and burning to overcome this loss.
22:58
A person can earn profit with Amoveo by using it to hedge their risks, or running a market where other people can hedge.
SS
22:58
Spike Spiegel
People would rebalance their passive portoflia to hold more and more stuff like Makerdao
22:58
More demand for stablecoins (in bear market) -> more Maker burn
Z
23:00
Zack
A stablecoin is for mimicing the value of something like USD. but USD is also losing value by the interest rate.
Holding USD is not an investment.
You might want to hold it as a hedge, or use it for denominating some other contract.
Holding USD is not an investment.
You might want to hold it as a hedge, or use it for denominating some other contract.
23:01
at least with USD the interest rate is lower than with cryptocurrency.
23:03
lets suppose that a stablecoin was an investment expected to increase in value.
If that were the case, then nobody would be willing to take the other side of the stablecoin contract. So there would be zero stablecoins available to buy.
Therefore, stablecoins can not be a profitable investment. They only work as a hedge, or for denominating other contracts.
If that were the case, then nobody would be willing to take the other side of the stablecoin contract. So there would be zero stablecoins available to buy.
Therefore, stablecoins can not be a profitable investment. They only work as a hedge, or for denominating other contracts.
SS
23:06
Spike Spiegel
Profit motive isn't only thing - some people are using stablecoins since there is demand for it - it's convinient to just hold some stable value in metamask wallet and pay people without KYC / AML
23:07
Literally holding USD in bank is cheaper and one can also earn money by investing in US gov bonds
23:08
Silkroad vendors were totally oblivious to wild bitcoin price swings since they had already massive profit margin - for illegal activities one may use very badly designed financial products to avoid detection
Z
23:10
Zack
using stablecoin for convenience is an example of denominating other contracts in stablecoin, like I just said.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
7 November 2018
MF
00:02
Mr Flintstone
been a while since net hash was this high
Deleted invited Deleted Account
AK
00:15
A K
Still 2-3 times more profitable than ETH
[
DV
00:22
Denis Voskvitsov
works for me
[
00:22
[Riki]
Stats end at around block 39k
DV
[
AK
00:24
A K
60-70 TH/s wow
00:25
That's 50-60K GPUs mining
MF
00:33
O sry already linked lol
[
AK
00:34
A K
roughly 1060 or 480
00:35
give or take
[
00:35
[Riki]
Its about 17k 1080ti
AK
00:35
A K
yep
[
00:35
[Riki]
Amd is bad for mining veo
AK
00:37
A K
yep
00:37
btw new OpenCL miner is out
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
01:52
Sy
Which one?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
M
05:22
Mike
Might be a good idea to get listed on Poloniex if the $260,000 fee is accurate. I think we could raise that quickly.
05:22
Why are we getting slammed with bots today?
MF
05:51
Mr Flintstone
even bots need risk management
OK
05:56
O K
Speak for yourself human
Z
09:04
Zack
About 1000 of the 2800 accounts that have been created are dust. They have less veo than a tx fee.
Z
09:28
Zack
I am thinking of making a tool in the light node so that pairs of users can make a channel together, and create a custom contract-for-difference between them.
Both users are only using the light node, they wouldn't use a channel server.
Markets are important tools, but when the trading volume is light, and privacy is in demand, sometimes OTC trading is better.
This would also bring us one step closer to the eventual goal of being able to move bets from indirect paths to direct ones.
Both users are only using the light node, they wouldn't use a channel server.
Markets are important tools, but when the trading volume is light, and privacy is in demand, sometimes OTC trading is better.
This would also bring us one step closer to the eventual goal of being able to move bets from indirect paths to direct ones.
EW
09:44
Eli W
In reply to this message
Usd or fiat or political currency lose value cos they printed too much every year ( the supply side ) , the demand side is real economy growth as it s used as medium of exchange and lesser part as storeage of value, so the printed amt growth smaller in % vs use case growth then the value go up
Z
10:06
Zack
We should make a magnet torrent link of the light node. for safe sharing.
10:07
In reply to this message
fiat is different from gold or cryptocurrency.
It costs money to mine the gold/cryptocurrency, it does not cost anything to print more fiat.
It costs money to mine the gold/cryptocurrency, it does not cost anything to print more fiat.
s
S
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Pascal joined group by link from Group
P
19:57
Pascal
Hi.. please how much the current coin supply is?
19:57
Thank you
AK
AK
19:58
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
407.1 KB
P
19:59
Pascal
6.5M?
19:59
Why buy this and not Zap oracles?
20:00
I'm just asking..
Z
20:07
Zack
Zap oracles is not actually an Oracle. It is trusted feeds.
Aeternity Is also calling trusted feeds as "oracles".
Maybe we need to invent a different word to mean "trustless tool to teach the blockchain facts".
Since everyone is using this word to mean "trustful tool to teach the blockchain facts."
But the thing is, why would anyone use a blockchain for a trustful relationship?
If you are going to trust someone anyway, you could use fiat cash.
Zap oracles are like a more limited version of bit rated.
Aeternity Is also calling trusted feeds as "oracles".
Maybe we need to invent a different word to mean "trustless tool to teach the blockchain facts".
Since everyone is using this word to mean "trustful tool to teach the blockchain facts."
But the thing is, why would anyone use a blockchain for a trustful relationship?
If you are going to trust someone anyway, you could use fiat cash.
Zap oracles are like a more limited version of bit rated.
็ดขๅ
็| ็ๆฌ่ชRealSatoshi invited ็ดขๅ
็| ็ๆฌ่ชRealSatoshi
BJ
22:35
Bob James
22:36
zack, any idea if this wallet is legit and safe?
AK
OK
22:37
O K
I think the source code has not been released yet
AK
22:37
A K
yep, although in case of appstores source only gets you so far :( maybe via verified builds in F-Droid...
22:38
dunno how one can check ios
Z
22:42
Zack
right, I was thinking of the javascript light node code he showed me. I don't know if the android app will use the same code.
DV
22:48
Denis Voskvitsov
it doesn't implement light node yet using only full node RPC apis. both of iOS and android apps work this way right now.
it requests address balance and pushes locally signed transactions.
it requests address balance and pushes locally signed transactions.
22:51
since it doesn't allow to use channels yet I don't think it somehow affects users security.
Z
22:51
Zack
Ive been researching mimble wimble more.
I am thinking of a plan to add more anonymity to amoveo.
We make a new database of accounts, this one isn't a merkel tree, instead it is a mimble-wimble type cryptographic database.
We make a transaction type for transfering veo into the anonymous system, a tx type for returning veo back to the normal accounts system, and a tx type for spending veo anonymously inside the mimble-wimble mixer.
Not only would this add anonymity, the mimble-wimble type txs can be compressed a lot more. There is only one signature for all the txs in the entire block.
I am thinking of a plan to add more anonymity to amoveo.
We make a new database of accounts, this one isn't a merkel tree, instead it is a mimble-wimble type cryptographic database.
We make a transaction type for transfering veo into the anonymous system, a tx type for returning veo back to the normal accounts system, and a tx type for spending veo anonymously inside the mimble-wimble mixer.
Not only would this add anonymity, the mimble-wimble type txs can be compressed a lot more. There is only one signature for all the txs in the entire block.
AK
22:52
A K
anonymity is a must! +++
Z
22:52
Zack
In reply to this message
so it is trustful on a full node. that isn't safe. Which full node does it trust?
AK
22:52
A K
why not though 1) forced anonymity like in Monero? 2) CT instead of MW?
DV
22:52
Denis Voskvitsov
our one by default, next update will allow the user to set theirs own preferred node.
Z
22:53
Zack
What is CT?
I like mimble wimble because it uses even less memory than standard bitcoin. Everything else I looked at uses a lot more memory than bitcoin.
I like mimble wimble because it uses even less memory than standard bitcoin. Everything else I looked at uses a lot more memory than bitcoin.
AK
22:53
A K
confidential transactions in Monero
Z
22:54
Zack
In reply to this message
I guess they are already trusting you to write a honest android app, so trusting you a second time to run an honest node doesn't make it worse.
22:56
It isn't a long term solution.
Blockchains make things trustless for everyone's benefit.
If you have the ability to steal so much money just by updating your app, or changing the code on your full node, then someone might black mail you into stealing for them.
Blockchains make things trustless for everyone's benefit.
If you have the ability to steal so much money just by updating your app, or changing the code on your full node, then someone might black mail you into stealing for them.
22:58
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/blob/master/src/js/headers.js
Here is a light node in vanilla javascript in less than 400 lines.
Here is a light node in vanilla javascript in less than 400 lines.
AK
22:59
A K
appstores will always have this problem though, iOS for sure
22:59
to sideload on iOS one needs MacOS, XCode and dev license...
22:59
0.0001% will do it
DV
22:59
Denis Voskvitsov
i can't steal someone's money by updating the node, it receives already signed transactions.
source code still can be changed though. but in the modern app stores there is no way to determine if the build you've downloaded made from the same code as published.
source code still can be changed though. but in the modern app stores there is no way to determine if the build you've downloaded made from the same code as published.
23:01
we'll publish the app in f-droid too, it will be a bit more trusted source, afair they support verified builds
23:01
but iOS still is the issue
Z
23:01
Zack
For example, you could update your node to display a different balance for the user than they actually have.
So you could hire them to mail you something, and make it look like you paid, but you didn't really pay them.
So you could hire them to mail you something, and make it look like you paid, but you didn't really pay them.
DV
23:03
Denis Voskvitsov
yep, that could be possible.
anyway, we have headers/merkle tree support in our nearest plans.
anyway, we have headers/merkle tree support in our nearest plans.
Z
23:04
Zack
right, you would need merkle trees too
23:05
Maybe the way to do this is to have a bunch of different people publish wallets, and try and spread out the users between them.
To decrease the likelyhood of any wallet provider getting hurt.
To decrease the likelyhood of any wallet provider getting hurt.
AK
23:05
A K
yeah hopefully that will happen
Z
23:07
Zack
if we get mimble wimble working, then there could be wallet providers who don't know how many veo are in the wallets.
AK
23:09
A K
yeah
23:09
unless the modify code to steal private keys
23:09
Monero btw also only has a wallet talking to a full node
23:09
maybe better way is to make launching a node as easy as possible
23:10
and point mobile wallets to them
23:10
Docker, Vagrant etc
Z
23:10
Zack
haha, monero doesn't care if they get robbed, just as long as it happens in privacy.
23:11
untraceable theft
AK
23:11
A K
I'd explore more the Monero approach to privacy vs MW
OK
23:13
O K
There are a million cryptonote coins these days, beating grin to the punch with MW features might be interesting
AK
23:16
A K
i dunno, they don't look more compelling to me vs Monero
23:16
only benefit is scalability
23:16
but given that veo will use channels, it's not that needed IMO
Z
23:18
Zack
What is the difference?
I am having trouble finding anything explaining monero/bytecoin privacy strategy.
I am having trouble finding anything explaining monero/bytecoin privacy strategy.
AK
23:19
A K
oh it's pretty well documented
23:19
hold on
Z
23:19
Zack
I am more interested in performance than the math details.
How big is it, who needs to store it, stuff like that.
How big is it, who needs to store it, stuff like that.
23:19
if it messes up our light node system, then we can't do it.
23:20
Monero takes more space for blockchain
23:21
still not sure how would the UX without addresses look like in Grin ( I understand some pros, but ..
DV
23:21
Denis Voskvitsov
last hardfork with bulletproofs reduced tx size drastically btw
Z
23:22
Zack
more space isn't necessarily a problem, depends on how much.
Right now you can verify a block without knowing anything about any other block. because each block has all the merkel proofs it needs to verify that block.
You don't need to store a database of block data, you only have to store the merkel root.
This makes our light nodes so powerful.
We need a privacy system that is compatible with this.
Right now you can verify a block without knowing anything about any other block. because each block has all the merkel proofs it needs to verify that block.
You don't need to store a database of block data, you only have to store the merkel root.
This makes our light nodes so powerful.
We need a privacy system that is compatible with this.
AK
23:23
A K
MW / Grin allows for pruning, Monero not so much AFAIR
23:23
23:24
also there was some twit of XMR considering a MW layer 2 sidechain ))
Z
23:26
Zack
There is still something like an address, right?
Maybe it is a multi-step handshake, rather than a broadcast. so you need to connect the wallets together and let them sort it out.
Maybe it is a multi-step handshake, rather than a broadcast. so you need to connect the wallets together and let them sort it out.
AK
23:28
A K
in Grin - no, no address
23:28
it's a handshake you do on each transfer
23:28
not sure if both wallets have to be online, or first step in handshake can be transferred offline and responded offline, too
Z
23:30
Zack
I wonder how they combine range proofs for different numbers when they add them together. in grin
Z
23:52
Zack
What if I made it as a side chain that was merge-mined with Amoveo?
AK
23:53
A K
well I personally think that combining pseudonymous and anonymous in one system, like zcash does, is detrimental
23:53
anonymous transactions stand out
23:54
entrance/exit form anonymous system will be scrutinized
23:54
Monero takes a radical approach
23:54
which I like
Z
23:55
Zack
with mimble wimble the anonymous txs will probably have lower fees, since they are so much smaller.
So I think they would be the default.
We could even use governance to make non-anonymous txs more expensive to encourage the private version.
So I think they would be the default.
We could even use governance to make non-anonymous txs more expensive to encourage the private version.
23:55
We need it to be compatible with our light nodes and channels for sure. that way you can be anonymous without having to install a full node and sync all the blocks.
MF
23:56
Mr Flintstone
how do we reconcile hiding economic transactions with the usefulness of public marketplaces
23:56
these markets teach us lots of information. people use public marketplaces because of liquidity
Z
23:56
Zack
it would be great if the output of a channel could dump into the private accounts, but that probably is not possible.
MF
23:57
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
especially futarchy. we need to know what is going on in the market for the correlation between A and B to make a decision
AK
23:57
A K
ideally
23:57
we need to see outcomes and bets
23:57
and not see who made the bets
23:57
otherwise censorship will be possible, like ppl would be afraid to bet against Trump
23:57
ok, against Kim
Z
23:58
Zack
use the private accounts as a mixer, and then again mix any profits you get from betting before you spend it.
AK
23:59
A K
yeah will sorta work
23:59
but muuuch harder than Monero model
23:59
opsec is a bitch
23:59
or wallet dev can fuck up and mix tainted accounts
Z
23:59
Zack
is the monero model compatible with channels and light nodes?
I have been searching for a while, and it seems like monero doesn't want me to find out how it works.
I have been searching for a while, and it seems like monero doesn't want me to find out how it works.
MF
23:59
Mr Flintstone
lol
AK
8 November 2018
AK
DV
A
00:00
Aries
In reply to this message
Zack might be right In that exposure can hurt Amoveo more than do it good. If we are to achieve Unstoppability then Amoveo is best to continue on the track that we are on.
AK
00:00
A K
oh wow
00:00
thanks for responding!
00:01
we already missed an option to make anon founders like Bytecoin / Grin / Bitcoin )
00:01
or did we?
00:01
;)
A
00:05
Aries
Unstoppability is worth more than Press/Publicity
AK
00:05
A K
It is.
00:06
I don't exactly see how it clashes vs the interview, but I agree on the thesis.
Z
00:07
Zack
"One of the things that surprises founders most about fundraising is how distracting it is. When you start fundraising, everything else grinds to a halt. The problem is not the time fundraising consumes but that it becomes the top idea in your mind. A startup can't endure that level of distraction for long. An early stage startup grows mostly because the founders make it grow, and if the founders look away, growth usually drops sharply."
http://paulgraham.com/fr.html?fbclid=IwAR1MSHtUt617ehsGHBcrQF8OJyg9ZvNrlwoPYa4-Y4EKhMFlfeRZ_LHyO9w
http://paulgraham.com/fr.html?fbclid=IwAR1MSHtUt617ehsGHBcrQF8OJyg9ZvNrlwoPYa4-Y4EKhMFlfeRZ_LHyO9w
Tv
00:16
Tarrence van As
Are there docs on creating a new oracle?
Tv
00:17
Tarrence van As
Thanks
00:20
Why is the
list_oracles api different from oracles:all().? It seems list_oracles only returns oracles created on that particular node
00:21
My understanding is that oracles are global primitives and markets are node specific, is that correct?
Z
00:24
Zack
I don't know what you mean by
list_oracles
00:24
oh, in the external api
00:24
that is to list all the markets that this node is currently hosting
00:25
maybe it should have been called "list_markets"
MF
00:27
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
oracles are on-chain so they are downloaded by everyone, while markets exists on single nodes
00:28
I think you said the same thing
Z
00:28
Zack
you are correct
Tv
00:28
Tarrence van As
Ok yeah I think the naming is a bit confusing
00:28
Thanks for the clarification
01:03
Deleted Account
whats the current marketcap
DV
Tv
01:23
Tarrence van As
Is there a limit to the length of a question we can ask an oracle?
MF
01:29
Mr Flintstone
yes but not practically
01:30
so there is a limit to the number of characters in the question text, which is itself a governance variable
01:30
but you can always say: follow the instructions in the preimage of this hash
01:30
and then distribute the preimage in social media or whatever
AK
01:35
A K
or length being how far in the future can the resolution date be? Augur has some limitation afair
MF
01:40
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
the only concept of time is block height which can be arbitrarily high
01:42
In reply to this message
but long-dated financial contracts become less useful if the denomination is in a super volatile currency
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
02:08
Zack
We can set up filters so that none of us will know or care about oracles that won't be closed this year.
02:08
If someone wants to pay to put junk data on the blockchain, let them.
MF
02:14
Mr Flintstone
shoutout to whoever doesnโt care about slippage on qtrade
Z
02:16
Zack
What is slippage?
MF
02:30
Mr Flintstone
maybe someone has a more precise definition, but it is the difference between the market price at the time when you entered a market order to buy or sell and the actual execution price of your trade
[
02:30
[Riki]
happens on bitmex frequently due to large levered orders
MF
02:30
Mr Flintstone
since there might not be enough order book depth for your trade, it will execute at a worse price than the market price at that time
02:30
latency factors in as well for continuous markets
Z
02:31
Zack
The price displayed on qtrade.io is the last trade matched.
So sometimes the spread between buys and sells doesn't contain the current price.
So sometimes the spread between buys and sells doesn't contain the current price.
02:31
It seems like price isn't defined. So slippage isn't well defined either
[
02:35
[Riki]
It usually happens when a margin trade gets liquidated during a highly volatile price action (support or resistance break), when a high volume of liquidations occur, not all can be liquidated at a given price at that moment. Many orders can slip.
Z
03:00
taking so long to load...
MF
03:02
Mr Flintstone
loaded for me
AK
03:03
A K
Nice read
03:03
Wonder what's the reach
Z
03:05
Zack
should I reshare it? or maybe extract the text into a different article. I wonder why it wont load for me.
MF
03:07
Mr Flintstone
yeah, this was a decent review actually
03:08
NETWORK TOKEN
Amoveo is a blockchain which secures a cryptocurrency called Veo. Using Amoveo you can host a market on a server where you make money every time anyone trades. Using Veo in the markets, you can buy and sell risk in anything. With Amoveo it is impossible for customers to steal from a market, and it is impossible for the market to steal from its customers.
Amoveo is a blockchain meant for enforcement of investment and insurance contracts. Amoveo contracts are enforced using state-channels. This means fees are low, contracts are nearly instant and can support a global audience.
Amoveo has oracle technology. Amoveo can learn facts about our world and enforce the outcome of contracts that are governed by these facts. This, for example, enables you to bet on the price of Amazon shares.
The variables that define how to participate in Amoveo can be modified by the Amoveo community using a built-in process. This way Amoveo will always stay optimally tuned to produce the best results.
Positives
Amoveo utilizes Oracles to ensure accurate data is fed to Smart Contracts in charge of executing several functions. Without accurate data, Smart Contracts can be โmisguidedโ by Bad Actors who wish to cause the execution of a contract in their favor. Betting & Prediction markets are some of the best examples of this tech being used in real world situations (Sport, Markets, etc). Amoveo takes things a step further by exploring the possibilities for Stablecoins, Crowd-Funding, Insurance and even Derivatives. Where competitors such as Augur and Aeternity are focused in on one or a few possibilities, Amoveo is exploring the full spectrum of possibilities that Oracles bring to the table. Should Amoveo see similar adoption to current players in the space, it could make a lot of projects unnecessary due to Amoveo taking way their โpoint of differenceโ and improving/innovating on it.
Weโve mentioned how Amoveo is currently it its โearly daysโ a few times now, so letโs take a look at their Roadmap. It looks like trying and testing the various possibilities that Amoveo brings to the table is the next milestone. Stablecoins, Smart Contract Payouts, Fundraising, Governance, that sort of thing. After this milestone it looks like studying the user base and marketing/exposure is to follow. At some point Amoveo will rename and rebrand and information about Amoveo will be featured on a website. Pretty straight forward Roadmap.
Speaking from an investors perspective, Amoveo offers up an opportunity to get into a project that can and most likely will rival competitors with $100m+ Market Caps while being well under a $5m Market Cap at the time of writing (October 2018). Given the lack of not only exchange listings but listings on CoinMarketCap and other Cryptocurrency monitoring websites, Amoveo has an incredible amount of potential exposure ahead of it if these listings come to fruition. Amoveo has a long way to go but if youโre prepared to hold for the long term, it may just pay off from these catalysts alone.
Despite the current lack of marketing/exposure and the lack of volume due to little in the way of exchange listings, Amoveo has an incredibly dedicated community behind it. Weโve seen projects that raised over $20m with half of the community engagement that Amoveo boasts. Further to this point, Amoveo never held an ICO and has been mainly developed by Zack-Bitcoin out of pure passion for blockchain tech. Keep an eye on VEO as it makes itโs way up onto CoinMarketCap and more exchanges. It wonโt be long until VEO is recognized as a worthy competitor to other projects in this space.
Concerns
Weโve got to get the obvious out of the way first. Amoveo is, at the moment, incredibly hard to find information resources on outside of the Amoveo Github. From what we can see, Amoveo doesnโt have a website at this time. We strongly recommend investors visit the Amoveo Github instead of Googling for any information at this time, it will make research a lot easier. The explorer, wallet and escrow system available are all very basic right now but these wil
Amoveo is a blockchain which secures a cryptocurrency called Veo. Using Amoveo you can host a market on a server where you make money every time anyone trades. Using Veo in the markets, you can buy and sell risk in anything. With Amoveo it is impossible for customers to steal from a market, and it is impossible for the market to steal from its customers.
Amoveo is a blockchain meant for enforcement of investment and insurance contracts. Amoveo contracts are enforced using state-channels. This means fees are low, contracts are nearly instant and can support a global audience.
Amoveo has oracle technology. Amoveo can learn facts about our world and enforce the outcome of contracts that are governed by these facts. This, for example, enables you to bet on the price of Amazon shares.
The variables that define how to participate in Amoveo can be modified by the Amoveo community using a built-in process. This way Amoveo will always stay optimally tuned to produce the best results.
Positives
Amoveo utilizes Oracles to ensure accurate data is fed to Smart Contracts in charge of executing several functions. Without accurate data, Smart Contracts can be โmisguidedโ by Bad Actors who wish to cause the execution of a contract in their favor. Betting & Prediction markets are some of the best examples of this tech being used in real world situations (Sport, Markets, etc). Amoveo takes things a step further by exploring the possibilities for Stablecoins, Crowd-Funding, Insurance and even Derivatives. Where competitors such as Augur and Aeternity are focused in on one or a few possibilities, Amoveo is exploring the full spectrum of possibilities that Oracles bring to the table. Should Amoveo see similar adoption to current players in the space, it could make a lot of projects unnecessary due to Amoveo taking way their โpoint of differenceโ and improving/innovating on it.
Weโve mentioned how Amoveo is currently it its โearly daysโ a few times now, so letโs take a look at their Roadmap. It looks like trying and testing the various possibilities that Amoveo brings to the table is the next milestone. Stablecoins, Smart Contract Payouts, Fundraising, Governance, that sort of thing. After this milestone it looks like studying the user base and marketing/exposure is to follow. At some point Amoveo will rename and rebrand and information about Amoveo will be featured on a website. Pretty straight forward Roadmap.
Speaking from an investors perspective, Amoveo offers up an opportunity to get into a project that can and most likely will rival competitors with $100m+ Market Caps while being well under a $5m Market Cap at the time of writing (October 2018). Given the lack of not only exchange listings but listings on CoinMarketCap and other Cryptocurrency monitoring websites, Amoveo has an incredible amount of potential exposure ahead of it if these listings come to fruition. Amoveo has a long way to go but if youโre prepared to hold for the long term, it may just pay off from these catalysts alone.
Despite the current lack of marketing/exposure and the lack of volume due to little in the way of exchange listings, Amoveo has an incredibly dedicated community behind it. Weโve seen projects that raised over $20m with half of the community engagement that Amoveo boasts. Further to this point, Amoveo never held an ICO and has been mainly developed by Zack-Bitcoin out of pure passion for blockchain tech. Keep an eye on VEO as it makes itโs way up onto CoinMarketCap and more exchanges. It wonโt be long until VEO is recognized as a worthy competitor to other projects in this space.
Concerns
Weโve got to get the obvious out of the way first. Amoveo is, at the moment, incredibly hard to find information resources on outside of the Amoveo Github. From what we can see, Amoveo doesnโt have a website at this time. We strongly recommend investors visit the Amoveo Github instead of Googling for any information at this time, it will make research a lot easier. The explorer, wallet and escrow system available are all very basic right now but these wil
03:08
l no doubt be upgraded with a proper GUI in the future. Itโs very clear that the Developer/s behind Amoveo are more concerned with the actual platform for the time being, rather than marketing/interface. Zack-Bitcoin (Developer) has mentioned in the Amoveo Roadmaps later stages that โAny money spent on advertising before this point in time is going to be dozens or hundreds of times less effectiveโ. This makes complete sense, no poing advertising something you havenโt finished. Not a bad thing at all. Investors should be prepared to do some Whitepaper reading, thatโs all!
Amoveo has some pretty well established competition in this space. Auger and Aeternity have been around for quite some time and are in use today. The Lead Developer (Zack-Bitcoin) working on Amoveo also helped work on the previously mentioned projects, so heโs well versed in this model. We wonโt attempt to go into the technical details here but Amoveo is planning to offer a whole lot more than the competition in terms of features & network capability.
No other concerns here. So far thereโs nothing to point out as being potentially concerning in regards to the proposed model, zack-bitcoin looks to be a very well respected developer in this space. Our main concern is simply the competition in the space and the current lack of research resources and exchange listings but these will no doubt improve over time.
Amoveo has some pretty well established competition in this space. Auger and Aeternity have been around for quite some time and are in use today. The Lead Developer (Zack-Bitcoin) working on Amoveo also helped work on the previously mentioned projects, so heโs well versed in this model. We wonโt attempt to go into the technical details here but Amoveo is planning to offer a whole lot more than the competition in terms of features & network capability.
No other concerns here. So far thereโs nothing to point out as being potentially concerning in regards to the proposed model, zack-bitcoin looks to be a very well respected developer in this space. Our main concern is simply the competition in the space and the current lack of research resources and exchange listings but these will no doubt improve over time.
03:08
here is the article text
AK
03:09
A K
might price have jumped in a response to it?
MF
03:10
Mr Flintstone
they posted it a few days ago I think
AK
03:11
A K
This Price Prediction section was a feature voted on by our community on Twitter. We do not stand by any of the following statements, we are merely speculating. We have been known to be pretty bullish on most projects we review, so take our predictions and DYOR.
As always, we like to take a step back and look at projects from a purely investment based perspective. VEO will no doubt see a ton of organic price growth through exchange listings and planned marketing in the future, any investments now would have a pretty good chance of appreciating from these catalysts, although any investment in such a new project comes with risk. Now sitting just under a $5m Market Cap (October 2018), VEO still has a huge amount of growth potential in the long term based on fundamentals. Smart Contracts are very susceptable to Bad Actors in an environment not monitored by Oracles, so expect this area of Smart Contracts to continue to expand. Now, onto everyoneโs favorite, price predictions. Please keep in mind due to the lack of price history, these are highly speculative guesses.
Short term (< 3 Months) We think VEO could be sitting anywhere from $250 to $500.
Mid Term (6 โ 12 Months) we think VEO could be a stable $600 to $1,000, especially if the market turns around in the next few months.
Anywhere passed 12 months would be impossible to accurately speculate on but weโd be confident on a $2000+ VEO in 1+ years. The current VEO supply is just under 35,000, so a $2,000 VEO would equate to a $70m Market Cap. Thereโs something to be said for ultra-low supply coins and the attractiveness they present to savvy investors, but thatโs another story for another time.
As with any investment into a low-cap project such as VEO, you absolutely must do your own research. We are by no means providing financial advice. Be smart!
As always, we like to take a step back and look at projects from a purely investment based perspective. VEO will no doubt see a ton of organic price growth through exchange listings and planned marketing in the future, any investments now would have a pretty good chance of appreciating from these catalysts, although any investment in such a new project comes with risk. Now sitting just under a $5m Market Cap (October 2018), VEO still has a huge amount of growth potential in the long term based on fundamentals. Smart Contracts are very susceptable to Bad Actors in an environment not monitored by Oracles, so expect this area of Smart Contracts to continue to expand. Now, onto everyoneโs favorite, price predictions. Please keep in mind due to the lack of price history, these are highly speculative guesses.
Short term (< 3 Months) We think VEO could be sitting anywhere from $250 to $500.
Mid Term (6 โ 12 Months) we think VEO could be a stable $600 to $1,000, especially if the market turns around in the next few months.
Anywhere passed 12 months would be impossible to accurately speculate on but weโd be confident on a $2000+ VEO in 1+ years. The current VEO supply is just under 35,000, so a $2,000 VEO would equate to a $70m Market Cap. Thereโs something to be said for ultra-low supply coins and the attractiveness they present to savvy investors, but thatโs another story for another time.
As with any investment into a low-cap project such as VEO, you absolutely must do your own research. We are by no means providing financial advice. Be smart!
03:11
supply under 35000 lol
03:11
written quite some time ago it seems )
Z
03:12
Zack
cool, thanks for sharing the text Mr Flintstone
MF
03:13
Mr Flintstone
the binance info site has our supply at like 35k iirc, which is why they may have thought itโs 35k
Z
03:13
Zack
is AK's text from the same article?
AK
03:13
A K
yep
MF
03:13
Mr Flintstone
yeah
Z
03:28
Zack
I want to tag my twitter account so that if people search for $veo they will find me
03:35
I can't figure it out.
S
Z
03:35
Zack
cool, thanks Shaun
S
03:36
Shaun
๐
Tv
03:38
Tarrence van As
What is the correct way to use the
api:orders(OracleID). command? Iโm using it like api:orders(<<"OaQb/xyYNbqrT4p/P8i7wfvo7zWo7GkCUBFfI8RuRNE=">>). but getting the error ** exception error: no match of right hand side value <<"OaQb/xyYNbqrT4p/P8i7wfvo7zWo7GkCUBFfI8RuRNE=">>
Z
03:39
Zack
you are currently using a binary string of the base64-encoded oracle id.
Instead just use the oracle id.
Instead just use the oracle id.
api:orders(base64:decode(<<"OaQb/xyYNbqrT4p/P8i7wfvo7zWo7GkCUBFfI8RuRNE=">>)).
Tv
03:40
Tarrence van As
Great thank you
03:42
Zack is it possible to get a human readable output from the api:orders command?
Z
03:46
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/trees/orders.erl#L20
Here is what the different parts of an
Here is what the different parts of an
orders record contain.
03:47
the one with the account id that is all zeros, and a bet amount that is bigger than the market cap. That one isn't a bet. it is holding some meta data about the oracle.
03:47
I stored this meta data with the orders tree instead of as a part of the oracle, and I have regretted this decision many times.
Tv
03:50
Tarrence van As
Interesting, so in order to parse the orders do I need to follow the pointer? Itโs a linked list?
Z
03:50
Zack
We are about a factor of 18 away from Augur's market cap.
I am so excited for the day our market caps match. Ever since I left Augur I have worked towards this goal.
I am so excited for the day our market caps match. Ever since I left Augur I have worked towards this goal.
03:51
then there is a null pointer for the last order in the order book
03:51
this particular order you referenced only has 1 bet in it.
Tv
03:52
I guess that is orders on the market?
Z
03:53
Zack
yeah, I think those are bets in the market.
or maybe it is referring to orders that have already been matched and disappeared from the order book.
or maybe it is referring to orders that have already been matched and disappeared from the order book.
Tv
03:53
Tarrence van As
Matched orders are pruned?
Z
03:55
Zack
unmatched orders are stored in order trees, who's roots are stored with the oracle.
matched orders are called "oracle_bets", they are stored in oracle_bet trees, and these tree have their roots stored with the account that made the bet.
matched orders are called "oracle_bets", they are stored in oracle_bet trees, and these tree have their roots stored with the account that made the bet.
Tv
03:55
Tarrence van As
Gotcha
Z
03:57
Zack
the block size limit just decreased by like 30%.
The oracle finally closed.
The oracle finally closed.
Tv
03:58
Tarrence van As
So this https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/api/commands_oracle.md#look-up-bets-in-the-oracle should be โLook up unmatched bets in Oracleโ?
Z
03:59
Zack
api:orders is for unmatched bets, yes. I will update it.
Tv
03:59
Tarrence van As
Ok just want to make sure I understand correctly
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M
10:16
Deleted Account
any exchanges in the near future?
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12:51
Deleted Account
Hi whats the current total and circulating supply?
MF
12:59
atm circ = total - ~10k
12:59
since 8k in dev wallet and 2k in burn address
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T
13:26
Topab
This company did a stress test for EOS and they found what expected, much lower performance than claimed https://www.whiteblock.io/. Do you think it makes sense to finace among the community a test to Amoveo?
S
13:54
Sy
i dont think stuff like this should be done right now, we are still in heavy development
AK
17:05
A K
still just recovering
17:05
S
17:33
Sebsebzen
We should start posting on 4chan
17:33
17:34
snowblossom memed hard there right now
17:37
alternatively, ask McAffee how much VEO he wants for a tattoo
17:37
haha
T
17:38
Topab
The derivatives market infrastructure is trying to move to blockchain only for the hype but nothings change https://offthechain.substack.com/p/the-dtccs-innovation-dilemma
S
17:39
Sebsebzen
great podcast
Z
17:42
Zack
In reply to this message
There is a test in amoveo where it builds blocks completely filled wih txs as fast as it can.
Sending Veo to a new address with each tx.
I had it run for like 10k blocks, 600 tx per block.
Each block took less than a second.
So computation probably won't be the bottleneck of tx processing speed.
Sending Veo to a new address with each tx.
I had it run for like 10k blocks, 600 tx per block.
Each block took less than a second.
So computation probably won't be the bottleneck of tx processing speed.
AK
17:43
A K
in EOS in one node also shouldn't have been a problem, I guess they tested propogation
T
17:43
Topab
Good to know you are performing those tests already
Z
17:48
In reply to this message
Almost all derivatives contracts are illegal.
Blockchain isn't just hype.
And blockchain isn't interesting because it allows different kinds of derivatives.
Derivatives already work very well, we should not make new kinds.
The big innovation of blockchains is to make an application unstoppable. Even by laws and governments.
Blockchain isn't just hype.
And blockchain isn't interesting because it allows different kinds of derivatives.
Derivatives already work very well, we should not make new kinds.
The big innovation of blockchains is to make an application unstoppable. Even by laws and governments.
T
17:49
Topab
Yeah, that was my point
Z
17:49
Zack
Derivatives on onions for example are one of the most important crop derivatives that a farmer needs. Because onions are so sensitive to the weather.
But in USA and many other countries, it is totally illegal to have onion derivatives.
But in USA and many other countries, it is totally illegal to have onion derivatives.
AK
17:49
A K
"Almost all derivatives contracts are illegal." what do you mean?
17:49
ppl trade daily futures on SP500 or interest rates
T
AK
17:49
A K
perfectly legal
Z
17:49
Zack
I mean the cops will arrest you if you tried to sell these derivatives in USA.
AK
17:50
A K
But that's different
17:50
You need to follow CFTC rules, true
17:50
but plenty exchanges follow them, it is not illegal per se
Z
17:50
Zack
There are a handful of contracts that are legal, but by default almost all contracts are illegal.
17:51
Like dominant assurance contracts.
I doubt you could host that kind of derivative market legally.
I doubt you could host that kind of derivative market legally.
AK
17:52
A K
Not a US lawyer, but I guess you could P2P
17:52
like me and you could enter a bet an onion price
17:52
Deleted Account
today's legal system is just a state tool for enslaving people
Z
17:53
Zack
In reply to this message
We could hire a bookie and hope he doesn't rob us.
If someone cheats, I doubt we could use the court system to enforce the contract.
If someone cheats, I doubt we could use the court system to enforce the contract.
17:54
Actually, I think in USA we would both get in a lot of trouble for onion gambling.
17:54
Usa doesn't mess around when it comes to onion futures.
AK
17:54
A K
between two of us we should be OK
Z
17:54
Zack
I am not a lawyer
AK
17:54
A K
and on top of that we could run a lightning network of onion bets ), all P2P )
17:55
neither am I
17:55
anyway, disruption long overdue
Z
17:55
Zack
Anyway, p2p isn't so good. The price is worse than a normal market
AK
17:55
A K
was just saying that"illegal" is not exactly correct
AK
Z
18:13
Zack
Even when derivatives are legal, often times you need to have an investors license to use them in the USA.
You need to prove that you already have over 1 million dollars before you can participate.
You need to prove that you already have over 1 million dollars before you can participate.
18:14
Or the presidential market to bet on who will be elected as president.
That market has limits on how much any individual can bet, and you also have to be a millionaire and get a license.
That market has limits on how much any individual can bet, and you also have to be a millionaire and get a license.
18:15
This is how the rich stay rich, and keep the rest of us in our place.
AK
18:15
A K
BTW I wonder what's the CFTC stance on Augur
18:15
they're running markets and US persons bet
Z
18:16
Zack
Who would the cftc punish?
I guess if someone admits to using augur in a public place, they could get punished.
I guess if someone admits to using augur in a public place, they could get punished.
AK
18:16
A K
site operator where ppl place bets?
Z
18:16
Zack
The site is decentralized in augur
AK
18:16
A K
i mean, IF CFTC decides to prosecute they probably will find, WHOM
18:16
well the website runs somewhere
Z
18:16
Zack
The markets are on-chain for them
AK
18:17
A K
has an IP
18:17
I know I know, question is how CFTC views it
18:17
I guess we'll learn soon
18:17
it's important for VEO
Z
18:18
Zack
I think it is using metamask and ipfs, so it isn't centrally hosted.
18:18
Amoveo markets are centrally hosted, it is different for us.
18:18
I know it pulls from blockchain, but there is a website operator for sure
Z
18:19
Zack
In augurs case, the website operator isn't necessarily participating in any market financially.
18:20
Sharing information isn't a crime.
AK
18:40
A K
Copyright holders might have another opinion :(
18:40
fucking sad state of the world we live in
18:41
nothing copyrighted on Augur I guess, but generally even sharing can be punishable (
Deleted invited Deleted Account
AK
18:46
Alex K
In reply to this message
Sharing information about particular items is illegal in many even western countries
18:48
Torrent websites and dark markets are just sharing information on where to get files/goods
G๐
โฟโฟ๐
R โ๏ธ invited G๐
โฟโฟ๐
R โ๏ธ
T
19:19
Topab
I am thinking of building something on Amoveo but unfortunatly I have 0 coding skills. Because of that my understanding of amoveo is also limited although I have followed it close for a while. I have also limited understanding of markets and trading. My idea is to look for a local programmer and hire it to try to understand amoveo together. I ssume depending on the thing I want to build the skills needed will vary, however, my first step is to understand the architecture and look at ways to interact with the protocol. What should be in your opinion the programming skills of the person to look for? are markets, trading and related background a must? Thank you all for the feedback
Z
19:21
Zack
The info that augur's websites are sharing isn't a crime.
19:24
In reply to this message
If you don't have programming skills, why get involved in a programming project?
There are plenty of ways to profit from Amoveo without programming.
You could host a stable coin Euro market.
There are plenty of ways to profit from Amoveo without programming.
You could host a stable coin Euro market.
T
19:35
Topab
Programming is something I always wanted to learn but realized of this a little late and I think getting to understand amoveo from a programming/architectural view kind of will satisfy my curiosity as non programmer but with interest in it. I like amoveo as a concept, the community, profit potential,... all in general so besides buying and mining veo I also feel like contributing in a different way and I thought this could be building an app or similar on it. I see potential in profiting for building on it too
19:35
No progaming skills to host a stable coin market?
Z
19:36
Zack
If there are any programming challenges in this goal, then just ask me.
I am already being paid to help people use amoveo.
I am already being paid to help people use amoveo.
19:37
If you just want to learn, don't let me stop you.
Knowledge is power.
Knowledge is power.
T
19:38
Topab
Thanks for the help offer Zack!
19:38
what type of programmers do you suggest me to talk to based on the above?
Z
19:39
Zack
Me.
If you have technical questions, say them on the forum and we can copy/paste the answers into the documentation.
If you have technical questions, say them on the forum and we can copy/paste the answers into the documentation.
T
19:42
Topab
๐ Thanks again. My idea is to sit together (physically) with a programmer and go through all the documentation. For the programmer to go through the code and "translate" to me what is it about. Then figure out what to do. I am sure we will have questions that we will of course ask here
Z
19:49
Zack
A person can learn erlang well enough to read within a week. Here is a free book https://learnyousomeerlang.com/content
It is one of the smallest and simplest programming languages.
People who can read erlang tend to be expensive, because it is a rare skill.
So I guess you could hire a programmer and pay him to read this book for a week.
I would recommend instead to read the first few chapters yourself, and then reflect again on what your goals are.
It is one of the smallest and simplest programming languages.
People who can read erlang tend to be expensive, because it is a rare skill.
So I guess you could hire a programmer and pay him to read this book for a week.
I would recommend instead to read the first few chapters yourself, and then reflect again on what your goals are.
T
19:54
Topab
Thanks for the advise. I will try to read first that book.
19:55
Reading somewhere, don't remember where, I saw hat amoveo was written in Chalang? or is this the language for the smart contracts? or I got this wrong ...
Z
19:56
Zack
Chalang is the language that I invented for smart contracts inside the lightning network.
T
19:58
Topab
I see. Is this language similar to erlang? I remember reading that amoveo will have very few smart contracts to make all it should so I assume not so much need to learn chalang
Z
19:59
Zack
Chalang is a forth-like language. It is similar to bitcoin script.
I am almost certain that learning chalang would not benefit you.
I am almost certain that learning chalang would not benefit you.
T
20:00
Topab
I see
Deleted joined group by link from Group
G
20:38
G๐
โฟโฟ๐
R โ๏ธ
Where can i buy veo?
Z
20:39
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
Lots of links on this page. Including links to exchanges.
Lots of links on this page. Including links to exchanges.
G
20:54
G๐
โฟโฟ๐
R โ๏ธ
In reply to this message
Hi admin, can you please guide where i can see the total and circulation supply and the marketcap?
M
Z
21:09
Zack
https://twitter.com/Xentagz/status/1060276098485944327
Funny video about network effects and leadership.
Funny video about network effects and leadership.
Tv
22:39
Tarrence van As
In reply to this message
Do you think this is an issue? Market operators seem to take on a lot of legal liability
Z
23:23
Zack
I was thinking that we could use mimble wimble, but without the privacy parts. So each tx will both include the quantity of veo being spent, and the elliptic-curve-encoded version of that same quantity.
What is nice about mimble wimble is that we can prune a lot of data from our history, so it is faster to sync, and that txs are a lot smaller, because we don't have to store signatures or addresses.
Even without hiding quantities, mimble wimble is still increasing privacy by merging all the txs into one. Your privacy is exposed when the 0th confirmation tx is sitting in a mempool, but as soon as it is in a block, then there is no record in the full nodes of which input matches which output. The miner is the only person who you have to expose the tx to.
People have payed for mixing services that are worse than this.
The complicated parts of mimble wimble are the range proofs, these parts are still in research and might change. They are the parts that would make mimble wimble expensive. It seems to me that 90% of the effort in building something like Grin is in the range proofs.
We don't need to use those parts of mimble wimble.
By just focusing on the beautiful and understood parts of Mimble Wimble, I think we can extract a lot of value and not waste much time.
Another benefit of mimble wimble's strategy is that light node operation is far simpler than light node operation in Amoveo. The user never has to deal with fraud proofs or game theory, and the light node is as secure as a full node.
What is nice about mimble wimble is that we can prune a lot of data from our history, so it is faster to sync, and that txs are a lot smaller, because we don't have to store signatures or addresses.
Even without hiding quantities, mimble wimble is still increasing privacy by merging all the txs into one. Your privacy is exposed when the 0th confirmation tx is sitting in a mempool, but as soon as it is in a block, then there is no record in the full nodes of which input matches which output. The miner is the only person who you have to expose the tx to.
People have payed for mixing services that are worse than this.
The complicated parts of mimble wimble are the range proofs, these parts are still in research and might change. They are the parts that would make mimble wimble expensive. It seems to me that 90% of the effort in building something like Grin is in the range proofs.
We don't need to use those parts of mimble wimble.
By just focusing on the beautiful and understood parts of Mimble Wimble, I think we can extract a lot of value and not waste much time.
Another benefit of mimble wimble's strategy is that light node operation is far simpler than light node operation in Amoveo. The user never has to deal with fraud proofs or game theory, and the light node is as secure as a full node.
AK
23:26
A K
I think we might pay XMR and Grin team to maybe consult us on this?
Z
23:27
Zack
no way I would pay them for that
MF
23:27
Mr Flintstone
isnโt it all open source anyways?
Z
23:27
Zack
They can waste all their time on bullet proofs.
The core math of mimble wimble is simple.
The core math of mimble wimble is simple.
AK
23:27
A K
yeah well before XMR had RingCT
23:28
it was deanonymized with very good probability
23:28
like, it was not at all secure
23:28
same for Coinjoin I guess
23:28
so we'd have an illusion
23:28
which might be more dangerous
Z
23:28
Zack
Did you read what I wrote?
I am abandoning the goal of anonymity, and focusing on the scaling features from mimble wimble.
I am abandoning the goal of anonymity, and focusing on the scaling features from mimble wimble.
M
AK
23:29
A K
Yeah and I think we still need anonymity
23:29
even if not through MW
Z
23:30
Zack
atomic swap to an anonymity blockchain, and then swap back.
AK
23:30
A K
then you'll have a lot of chances to fuck up and taint addresses
23:30
or a wallet dev will fuck up
Z
23:32
Zack
Amoveo isn't going to solve every problem.
This project is for scalable derivatives.
This project is for scalable derivatives.
MF
Z
23:32
Zack
bullet proof research is intense. You can figure it out and write the code if you want.
AK
23:33
A K
it is, that's why I proposed contracting some XMR team, but alas
23:33
i'll continue digging anyways
23:33
ppl are lazy
23:34
Monero system with mandated anonymity prevails
23:34
(well we'll see how it goes after Sapling in zcash)
MF
23:34
Mr Flintstone
if you donโt want privacy not using it is ok right. the point is you can opt-in and be protected if you want
Z
23:35
Zack
mimble wimble is a beautiful solution for making light nodes more secure and user friendly, it is a beautiful solution for scalability.
I am so disappointed that people only talk about it in the context of privacy.
I am so disappointed that people only talk about it in the context of privacy.
AK
23:35
A K
I don't think Veo has a scalability problem though, does it?
23:35
Even with 100x adoption from now?
23:36
even XMR doesn't have scalability problems yet