Amoveo ♥🧿
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I am guessing you only synced headers, not blocks.
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24 October 2018
AK
20:14
A K
Org?
SIN invited SIN
AK
Mike invited Mike
S
23:01
In reply to this message
Its more of a community decision actually . Believe it or not ur marketing is substandard or non existant . Remove the Individuality in ur statements.
SS
23:02
or amoveo.com
23:03
S
23:03
Dont know the rest of the story
23:06
Anyway drop it . We are not marketing anyway.
25 October 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
00:18
Deleted Account
The domains are nice but not really that important
00:19
hehe https://www.veo.fi
AK
01:03
A K
Amoveo.yes
Abhishek Choudhary invited Abhishek Choudhary
AC
01:07
Abhishek Choudhary
WHERE
01:07
TO
01:07
BUY
01:07
VEO
M
AC
01:11
Abhishek Choudhary
👍
M
05:40
Mike
Does a DAC elect a specific builder who can claim the reward?
Z
05:41
Zack
There are lots of ways to program dominant assurance contracts.
05:42
The first one we try will probably be a binary derivative with limitations on the prices you can trade at.
So the builder and entrepreneur will be the same person.
So the builder and entrepreneur will be the same person.
05:42
Or they will have some non-blockchain way to work together.
M
05:47
Mike
So, in terms of a DAC for an ASIC. Theoretically, the ASIC DAC quickly raises 1000 VEO, the vast majority coming from “investors.” Current market price of $90,000. I anticipate 1000 VEO to be worth $2.5 million in 6 months so I assume the role of “builder” and contract out to someone to build the ASICS. The builder quotes me 6 months and $1.2 million. VEO spikes 2 months later and 1000 VEO is worth $1 million. My contracted builder sees this, and speeds up development on the ASIC expecting VEO to continue its run. He finishes 4 months after we sign our contract. The builder gives their tech to a different entity who claims the reward. I’m still left on the hook for the original order, which still wouldn’t be delivered for 2 months, leaving me obsolete and on the hook for $1.2 million.
Z
05:49
Zack
You can only use a dominant assurance contract to create a public good.
Asics aren't a public good.
we could use a dac to pay for the creation of open source software needed as a perquisite for making Asics.
Asics aren't a public good.
we could use a dac to pay for the creation of open source software needed as a perquisite for making Asics.
05:50
It is expensive to calculate the design of the chip, even before we can start printing.
M
05:50
Mike
Wouldn’t ASIC’s add security to the blockchain? Helping everyone?
Z
05:51
Zack
Right. The creation of Asics would be good for Amoveo.
05:51
But an individual asic is only a good for it's owner.
05:52
By making the chip designs open source, we would lower the cost for more competitors to produce Asics.
M
05:52
Mike
So if we’re contracting for a tunnel, three builders could compete side by side drilling. The first one out on the other side claims the reward?
AK
05:52
A K
Market cap should be x100 from current to make ASIC worthwhile
SS
05:55
Spike Spiegel
"chip designs open source, we would lower the cost for more competitors to produce Asics." - chip design is low cost for simple sha256 algo compared to tooling / fab cost
Z
05:55
Zack
We cannot use dominant assurance contracts to pay for hardware.
Each piece of hardware is owned by someone.
The blockchain can't enforce ownership of hardware.
We can use amoveo to pay for public goods.
Like software or designs or a video.
Each piece of hardware is owned by someone.
The blockchain can't enforce ownership of hardware.
We can use amoveo to pay for public goods.
Like software or designs or a video.
05:57
In reply to this message
That isn't what I learned.
For the 14 nm transistor chips we would need to use proprietary software to calculate where to put the transistors. And a license to use the software is the biggest cost of manufacturing Asics at this scale.
I could be wrong, I haven't looked into this in a while.
For the 14 nm transistor chips we would need to use proprietary software to calculate where to put the transistors. And a license to use the software is the biggest cost of manufacturing Asics at this scale.
I could be wrong, I haven't looked into this in a while.
SS
05:57
Spike Spiegel
130nm is still good
Z
05:58
Zack
If we use bigger transistors, then it is slower and makes more heat.
We need the best stuff to be competitive for mining
We need the best stuff to be competitive for mining
SS
05:58
Spike Spiegel
Even Intel cannot get 10nm to work xD
Z
05:58
Zack
I wonder what size is comparable with gpu efficiency
M
05:58
Mike
In terms of developing software side by side for a DAC, is it more game theory since they can hide their progress from each other?
Z
SS
05:59
Spike Spiegel
Slow FPGA may be faster for some operations than 5GHz i9 core due to fact that FPGA / ASIC may do some things in single clock cycle that's impossible for x86 core
M
05:59
Mike
Race to claim builder reward
Z
06:00
Zack
Fpga hardware is too expensive.
SS
06:01
Spike Spiegel
Most feasible strategy is getting cheapest 130nm ASIC from some low quality vendor and it would be MUCH much better than GPU
Z
06:02
Zack
In reply to this message
I think a race style contract would not be ideal in most situations.
It is better if the builders compete in other ways.
Like by offering different DAC
It is better if the builders compete in other ways.
Like by offering different DAC
M
06:02
Thank you
SS
06:02
Spike Spiegel
But nobody would be willing to shell out money even for such thing if zack can ragequit or change algo etc... - people get burned by Sia mining algo change and there some fraction of eth lovers that would like to brick asic/fpga eth miners..
Z
06:02
Zack
In reply to this message
Incremental improvements are good. You are right.
Maybe we should focus on getting a low efficiency asic first.
Maybe we should focus on getting a low efficiency asic first.
SS
06:03
Spike Spiegel
TBH even simple thing as API with current supply would help - or good tutorial re: how to use markets / oracles / gov variables / etc...
06:03
Hashrate follows capital, not in other direction
Z
06:03
Zack
In reply to this message
This community has been consistently using futarchy to make these kinds of decisions. So you have nothing to worry about.
SS
06:05
Spike Spiegel
Realistically large veo holdings aren't enough to force changes - one would need some good Erlang devs - there is a theory that only threat of successful fork makes people empowered
Z
06:06
Zack
Futarchy will make the ideal decision.
Better than threats of forks.
Better than threats of forks.
06:07
Futarchy will make a better decision than any other method. Since a prediction market aggregates all other information sources.
SS
06:07
Spike Spiegel
Well - nobody actually tried to fork veo yet?
Z
06:07
Zack
We have used futarchy to make controversial decisions.
SS
06:08
Spike Spiegel
Supply reduction?
Z
06:08
Zack
Then, and also when we changed the difficulty retargetting
06:09
It is a decentralized community. No one can force a decision, not even by rage quiting.
Syd invited Syd
13:53
Deleted Account
Not a DAC, but could we not just create a market on whether the hashrate will be higher than what is economically feasible in one year (wrt hash vs power cost)? Anyone wanting to kickstart ASIC production could place bets in the market and it wouldnt make a difference who produced the ASIC...
13:55
People could bet on «GPU mining» if they wanted the ASIC to be produced, making a possible profit if it did not come to existence
13:56
The ASIC developer should place all bets in one go
Z
19:44
Zack
If we used a normal market, then speculators could cut into miner' s profits by betting the same way as them.
Guillermo Joya invited Guillermo Joya
GJ
22:02
Guillermo Joya
Hello devs. What’s happening wit ya ?
22:03
Any update on the wallet ? Any plans for an electron version?
N
22:06
NM$L
Have iOS wallet?
Z
22:17
Zack
I am focused on getting contracts for difference markets working.
This will allow stablecoins.
There is no ios wallet.
Amoveo is very different from bitcoin, it does not make sense to reuse any of electron's software.
This will allow stablecoins.
There is no ios wallet.
Amoveo is very different from bitcoin, it does not make sense to reuse any of electron's software.
N
22:28
NM$L
VEO needs marketing.
MF
22:35
Mr Flintstone
there are some people working on mobile wallets for Android iOS etc
22:35
also it’s in the process of being re-skinned
22:35
new UI
Z
22:36
Zack
there are?
These people should contact me so we can set up a dominant assurance contract to fund the development of these wallets.
These people should contact me so we can set up a dominant assurance contract to fund the development of these wallets.
s
GJ
s
23:57
sanket
Any guide to make markets on Veo?
I feel it's too technical
I feel it's too technical
GJ
23:57
Guillermo Joya
They are almost done. They could incorporate Amoveo easily
23:58
I am a beta tester for the wallet and I like it
26 October 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
M⛏
03:59
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
we have a great opportunity in front of us if Zach decided to do this interview with Leonardo Dicaprio
04:02
It's understandable if you're nervous about it, but I've seen some of your interviews/podcasts and I think you did a great job . It's better that someone with your knowledge level in the space does the interview rather than someone else imho
04:05
or we can just make a market for it like @Simon3456 or @Jbreezy0 suggested
:p invited :p
Z
06:52
Zack
I made a governance oracle to change the block size.
Someone on twitter wanted to try out futarchy in Amoveo.
Someone on twitter wanted to try out futarchy in Amoveo.
MF
06:53
Mr Flintstone
what is % change parameter?
Z
06:53
Zack
50
06:54
the number is a 50. so it will either go down 30% or up 50%
MF
06:54
Mr Flintstone
why do we always do the largest change lol
Z
06:54
Zack
I think we should make the block size lower for now.
That way if someone decides to spam the blocks, it wont do so much damage
That way if someone decides to spam the blocks, it wont do so much damage
MF
06:54
Mr Flintstone
makes sense to me
Z
06:54
Zack
and we have been using less than 1% of the space available
MF
06:55
Mr Flintstone
the amoveo cashers aren’t gonna be happy about this
Z
06:55
Zack
an average of 2 tx per block out of 650 possible.
06:55
we can always get bigger blocks later
MF
06:59
Mr Flintstone
the governance fee for spends used to be 1/650th of a veo I think?
07:01
so a full block of spends would burn about as much veo as was created by the block reward? iirc
Z
07:05
Zack
that was the initial settings, yes. the spend fee is lower now
MF
07:06
Mr Flintstone
I didn’t realize just how much veo is gonna get burned if blocks start to get full
07:06
it lowers the effective inflation rate significantly
Z
07:08
Zack
I had the initial settings like that to optimize for security at the beginning. To lessen the damage of spam attacks.
On day 1 a veo was worth practically nothing.
I didn't want one of the first miners to make lots of 1 megabyte blocks at almost no cost.
On day 1 a veo was worth practically nothing.
I didn't want one of the first miners to make lots of 1 megabyte blocks at almost no cost.
Z
07:25
Zack
I just stuck 6 channel_solo_close txs into the tx pool. it was so much easier than I had expected.
07:25
I think this is the first time we have used this tx type.
07:26
this is the first block that is including chalang code.
07:26
from now on it will be way more annoying to update chalang.
07:26
I wonder if it will break explorers.
07:31
when a person uses the same contract 6 times, it ends up storing the entire contract in the channel state 6 times.
07:32
and we store 2 copies. one signed by the server, and one signed by the user
07:36
looks like it might have broken veoscan
IP
07:37
I P
lol
Z
07:38
http://139.59.144.76:8080/explorer.html
the original explorer is still working great
the original explorer is still working great
07:40
zItT81PP8MYrk+QDce2eUid8SQSsMzZKhWBy2Wb2WGY=
Here is the oracle ID for the governance oracle to change the block size.
Here is the oracle ID for the governance oracle to change the block size.
07:53
http://139.59.144.76:8080/explorer.html
I set up a futarchy market for the governance decision.
koWAM1ANpoPGmd+o3AFVABVyc7EeEHanf8qqmxOLeE4=
I set up a futarchy market for the governance decision.
koWAM1ANpoPGmd+o3AFVABVyc7EeEHanf8qqmxOLeE4=
MF
07:55
Mr Flintstone
link doesn’t work for me
Z
07:55
Zack
I am just updating. it will be back in less than a minute.
07:57
veoscan skips from block 68 to 70, and you can't load the page for 68
Dr. Doctor invited Dr. Doctor
10:57
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Veoscan sync is fixed now, but still it does not parse channel_solo_close tx properly. I will fix it later.
J
12:13
JL6363
I have 2 questions. Let's talk about football gambling. How does the betting odds generate?
12:15
Currently the points for the betting site is around 5%, how much is the cost giving nodes to provide results percentage wise?
MF
12:33
Mr Flintstone
the channel fees are programmable
12:34
betting odds are generated by the people in the market
12:36
there isn’t a direct cost on any nodes to get a result, they just need to look at the blockchain to know what happened in the oracle
J
12:39
JL6363
is there a range? since for oracle to work in this industry, % is one of the keys.
12:41
From business point of view, reaching a certain of amount of players is crucial to make the odds close to reasonable. Otherwise, small size bet will affect the odds, which will lead to arbitrage opportunities.
F
19:06
Francesco @ Simply
if i used a wallet which was generated randomly for me from the light node a few months ago, is that safe?
MF
19:41
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
as long as you never used the “generate new keys” button
19:41
In reply to this message
what do you mean by range? oracles have only three discrete outputs: true, false, bad question
А
19:51
Андрюхин
Block reward is still 0.6 ?
MF
19:55
Mr Flintstone
yeah
T
Z
20:15
Zack
What does "paid to the oracle" mean?
The Oracle is an on-chain datastructure. It doesn't own money.
The Oracle is an on-chain datastructure. It doesn't own money.
SL invited SL
T
21:03
Topab
The oracle provides a service, verification of a fact, is it free cost?
Z
21:04
Zack
Half the people who gamble in the Oracle market make losing bets. Their money goes to people who made winning bets in the Oracle.
AK
21:12
A K
half the bets volume rather, can be 1 winner vs 100 loosing
T
21:22
Topab
Oracles are facts easily verifiable, isn't it? In most cases people won't lie so not many losers, or I'm missing something?
Z
21:23
Zack
Yes. The Nash equilibrium is super boring.
A single person reports the result, they win a small amount of money.
A single person reports the result, they win a small amount of money.
Z
22:10
Zack
Amoveo has a bigger market cap than 3/4ths of the projects listed on coinmarketcap.
MF
22:20
Mr Flintstone
I think veo isn’t on cmc because qtrade isn’t on cmc
Z
22:21
Zack
right
T
22:28
Topab
In reply to this message
How much is that money? Or, How much it costs to create an oracle?
Z
22:29
Zack
a question oracle costs about 0.02 veo.
A governance oracle costs about 0.3 veo
A governance oracle costs about 0.3 veo
22:29
these costs are governance variables. they might change.
T
22:33
Topab
How much cost opening a bet/market?
Z
22:34
Zack
It is free to host a lightning network market.
But if people are going to make channels with your hub, you need some Veo to be inside the channels.
So running a market costs Veo, but it is profitable. You end with Veo than you started.
But if people are going to make channels with your hub, you need some Veo to be inside the channels.
So running a market costs Veo, but it is profitable. You end with Veo than you started.
T
22:39
Topab
I end with more veo because those making channels in my hud pay a fee for participating in the market?
Z
22:40
Zack
There is a small fee for participating in the market. You would probably make most of your profit from the fees users pay to open a channel with you.
But you can set both of these fees however you want.
It is hard to predict where the profit will end up coming from in the long term
But you can set both of these fees however you want.
It is hard to predict where the profit will end up coming from in the long term
23:51
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
If we didn't enter random text into the bottom input but did hit generate new keys, are we safe?
23:57
I am trying to find the commit where the entropy box was removed. It looks like the "Generate New Keys" button is still available.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
27 October 2018
00:05
Deleted Account
I looks like funds are safe if the button was pressed but there was no user-inputted entropy: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/f776f2d2eae743b5a068747cfe9fdf27e0734942/apps/amoveo_http/priv/external_web/keys.js#L95
AK
00:10
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Just realized it was never removed. It only appears as an option after you click "Generate New Keys"
Z
00:19
Zack
I just added 18 channel_timeout txs to the mempool.
confusing since only 7 of them were with my server.
confusing since only 7 of them were with my server.
00:20
I guess if a channel is ready to be closed, then anyone can do it. you don't have to be one of the participants.
00:21
So I payed tx fees for 11 channels that weren't mine.
00:24
zItT81PP8MYrk+QDce2eUid8SQSsMzZKhWBy2Wb2WGY=
The governance oracle is in the false state. So it looks like blocks size limit will be reduced from 1 megabyte to about 700 kilobytes.
The governance oracle is in the false state. So it looks like blocks size limit will be reduced from 1 megabyte to about 700 kilobytes.
00:29
How do I contact the owner of the new comino pool?
I need a way to talk to them so we can discuss hard updates.
I need a way to talk to them so we can discuss hard updates.
00:32
block 38784 has lots of channel timeout txs in it
00:33
about 18 people should notice that their balance has increased
MF
01:13
Mr Flintstone
lol
01:13
one of my hot wallets was vulnerable to the brain wallet bug
01:14
so the attacker stole like 1 or 2 veo
01:14
but they didn’t find the channel balance
p
02:22
private_pr0perty
Why discussion moves to telegram from discord?
02:23
Earlier all info was in discord
Z
02:24
Zack
discord has a lot of channels to focus on specific topic, it is a good place to ask questions.
Telegram is more like a stream-of-consciousness of the current state of development.
Telegram is more like a stream-of-consciousness of the current state of development.
02:26
Having multiple forums protects us in case any one network shuts down or censors us.
Z
02:47
Zack
We should make a web page to show the live profitability of mining amoveo vs eth with the same hardware.
AK
Z
02:54
Zack
If the price gets too high, maybe it will make sense to use a futarchy market to find out if we should increase the block reward again.
AK
02:54
A K
It's not exactly one number but one can compare ETH Vs VEO
Z
02:57
Zack
In reply to this message
This is great! much better than what I was imagining.
You have the historical data there.
Looks like VEO is about 5x more profitable to mine than ETH today.
You have the historical data there.
Looks like VEO is about 5x more profitable to mine than ETH today.
AK
J
AK
IP
03:06
I P
In reply to this message
Yep, must be an error. Maybe wrong block reward or diff or hashrate of cards
DV
03:10
Denis Voskvitsov
block reward is correct, might be outdated data on hashrate. you can set your own anyway
Z
03:11
Zack
where do you get the current veo to dollar exchange rate?
AK
Lanciaominer invited Lanciaominer
DV
03:12
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
at the moment it's hardcoded at 75 usd but we're ready to rollout release with live feed from AEx/Qtrade
Z
03:13
Zack
$75 is less than the current price. So Veo mining could be even more profitable than the graph says
03:13
Deleted Account
Perhaps a formula would be better? Hashrate*veo rate*?=daily mining reward. The number should stay faily constant
OK
03:14
O K
5x more than ETH seems high, is something being double calculated?
Z
03:14
Zack
is anyone using a GeForce 1080 Ti? how many veo do you get per day on average?
03:15
maybe this chip is just bad at eth mining.
I think eth takes a lot of memory
I think eth takes a lot of memory
OK
03:16
O K
1080ti is what, 4.5gh/s?
03:16
It's a fine card for ETH
IP
03:18
I P
rx580 gets 0.0069 veo per day by veopool calc which is close to truth in my experience. with veo price around 100$ this is like 0.69$ per day
OK
IP
03:18
I P
eth mining is 0.51 per day
OK
03:19
O K
Okay, that sounds right
03:19
Not 5x
IP
03:19
I P
im not counting electric cost anywhere here
03:19
so veo mining is marginally more profitable than eth
Z
03:20
Zack
4.5 gh/s * 70000000 satoshi block reward / 14285000 gh per block makes 22 satoshis per second.
or 0.019 veo per day.
Which is about $2 per day right now.
So I am calculating twice as profitable as exan.tech's estimate.
or 0.019 veo per day.
Which is about $2 per day right now.
So I am calculating twice as profitable as exan.tech's estimate.
03:21
Deleted Account
Could we just convince whattomine to take on amoveo?
03:21
Do we need to advertise? Miners will figure it out?
03:22
Perhaps use PR resources otherwise?
AK
IP
03:22
I P
well eventually they will take it
Z
03:23
Zack
oh, you subtract the price of electricity. but isn't that different for everyone?
AK
03:23
A K
Shows 2x difference Vs ETH for me for 1080Ti
Z
03:23
Zack
I wonder if different hash algorithms use different amounts of power
OK
03:23
O K
It's kind of silly to compare to ETH anyway
AK
03:24
XMR notoriously uses c. half the wattage of eg ETH
IP
AK
03:25
A K
In reply to this message
Which seems about right, CUDA miner is better than opencl one, so nvda preferred for veo
IP
03:26
I P
there are much more profitable coins of 1080ti than eth
AK
03:26
A K
I was just checking where Zack saw 5x
IP
B
IP
03:26
I P
idk where you can see 5x this is unral
Z
03:26
Zack
According to twitter, the Amoveo community loves these things:
astronomy, dogs, weather, comedy, and physics.
astronomy, dogs, weather, comedy, and physics.
AK
03:27
A K
🤔
OK
03:27
O K
Yeah, math doesn't check out
Z
03:28
Zack
And the Amoveo community is most likely to spend money on quick and easy premium brands for home cooking and grilling.
OK
03:29
Great, maybe we should rebrand
03:29
Put a cast iron skillet in the logo
03:29
Amo-fillet-o
Z
03:29
Zack
We could have a market on the price of premium cuts of steak.
OK
03:29
O K
Great idea
AK
Z
03:32
Zack
We are also a community of "ethnic explorers".
03:33
oh, we actually hate dogs compared to the average person.
Amoveo users are almost 7x more likely to dislike dogs.
Amoveo users are almost 7x more likely to dislike dogs.
03:34
the biggest thing that makes us stand out from the average, is an interest in Physics.
OK
03:34
O K
Are you sure this isn't just describing you?
Z
03:35
Zack
yes. it is weird, I don't think I wrote anything about physics on twitter.
OK
03:35
O K
Have you ever done any ethnic exploration?
Z
03:36
Zack
turns out we are just as interested in ethnic exploration as the average.
What makes us stand out is our interest in: physics, business, and government.
What makes us stand out is our interest in: physics, business, and government.
OK
03:36
O K
I wonder how that compares to the average cryptocurrency enthusiast
Z
03:37
Zack
too bad the analytics data on twitter isn't shared
03:38
I love mexican food, but the Amoveo community hates it.
OK
03:38
O K
Who doesn't like Mexican food
Z
03:39
Zack
93% of zack-bitcoin's twitter followers apparently
OK
03:39
O K
O_o
03:40
Maybe we have failed as a community to reach out to the chimichanga lovers
Z
03:41
Zack
Maybe Amoveo users just don't feel the need to talk about mexican food on twitter
G
03:42
but don't talk about it on twitter
OK
03:42
O K
I figured they gathered data from searches and IP address and other 3rd party tracking
AK
03:43
When in fact it's 50+ mhs afair
03:43
35 used to be before some patches
OK
03:43
O K
Nice
AK
03:43
A K
So it's 2-2.5 times more profitable to mine veo on 1080ti
03:43
Than eth
03:44
But again, 1080ti is not well suited for ETH, too expensive
Z
03:45
Zack
Maybe we should make a list of chips that are better for Amoveo, so people can more easily know if it is worth it to switch
OK
03:45
O K
Like tortilla chips?
03:46
If they dont like mexican food, they will probably prefer potato crisps
Z
03:46
Zack
that would just drive them away. total alienation of our demographic.
OK
03:46
O K
Right
Z
03:47
Zack
we should explain it in terms of the kinematic equations or special relativity
M
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Serafino invited Serafino
SS
07:53
Spike Spiegel
Can Amoveo be used in similar fashion to LN - to send small amount of coins with almost no fees to people?
07:54
I wonder how to replace ETH by veo in something like this https://beta.cent.co/
Z
08:00
Zack
yes, the light node already supports lightning payments.
08:01
No one has used them. I think this is because the tx fee is currently so low.
S
10:00
Sy
looks like xdpool turned back on...again
M
10:53
Minieep21
xdpool is the chinese?
S
11:10
Sy
just one farm afaik
14:28
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Cent actually uses something similar to state channels. It operates a custodial hub that periodically settles signatures onchain
IP
S
20:11
Sy
Welcome to China 😂
IP
20:14
I P
yeah china really killing all the mining and decentralization shit because production of electronics is very centralized
20:15
also they don't give a fuck about pollution so they burn coal to produce a lot of cheap electricity
20:17
so crypto mining contributes to pollution and global warming mostly through china. us/canada mining is more about hydropower if i'm not mistaken, otherwise price on electricity is too high
OK
20:18
O K
China is also a large place with a large portion of the world's population, and still developing, things will get better
IP
20:20
I P
In reply to this message
true, but that also means a lot of people will die from lung cancer in china because of air pollution
Z
20:20
Zack
I think the biggest mines in china are hydro power too.
IP
20:21
I P
In reply to this message
could be, but if ii'm not mistaken, most of china power is still from coal
OK
20:21
O K
In reply to this message
This is a problem with developing countries in general throughout history
IP
20:21
I P
yep, i know. i'm not very concerned to be honest, just admit the fact
OK
20:21
O K
The alternative might be starvation or stagnation if they were to instantly switch them off
Z
20:22
Zack
Most of USA is coal too.
I lived in a town in california for years where the electricity came from coal plants
I lived in a town in california for years where the electricity came from coal plants
OK
20:22
O K
I admit it, I'm just not sure it is so bad in comparison with alternatives
20:23
If it comes down to global weather emergencies, I suspect there will be Chinese scientists right there with the rest of the world innovating solutions to stay alive
Z
20:24
Zack
About 2/3rd of USA electricity is from burning coal and other fossil fuels.
OK
20:25
O K
I've heard USA coal pollution is 'scrubbed' so I dont know if it's a 1:1 comparison
Z
20:26
Zack
The problem wih hydro power is that people usually live far away from dams.
It is expensive to send electricity too far away.
But with crypto mining, we can send the miners to the dam. That is why hydro power is so popular with crypto mining all over the planet.
It is expensive to send electricity too far away.
But with crypto mining, we can send the miners to the dam. That is why hydro power is so popular with crypto mining all over the planet.
OK
20:26
O K
Fossil fuels will get more expensive and they say that bitcoin mining is helping making electricity more fungible and accelerate development of alternative energies
JS
A
22:16
Aries
You can buy Hydroelectric plants and set up shop next to them.
22:16
I saw some in Albania for 2.5 Million
[
A
[
22:30
[Riki]
There were a few for sale, could find out how much $$. Depends on capacity, i guess a couple MWs suffice.
22:58
Deleted Account
Hydroelectric I guess depends on the amount of land/waterfall you have available. Then probably best economy to use the size turbine suited to the fall height and flow of water. Its not usually one size fits all. And smaller plants are expensive unless you do installation yourself, which is not really straightforward. My mining is all hydropower, I would not do it if power was not renewable or at least would lead to investments in renewable energy
22:59
Actually the fact that my miners are renewable is a big part of the reason that I set them up
28 October 2018
Z
00:07
Zack
Is it better to own a tiny hydroelectric plant, or to just put your miners near a big hydroelectric plant?
I would think that there is a lot of risk associated with owning an electric plant.
There are already plenty of gigantic dams around the world. Many of which sell almost free electricity, if you are willing to be located next to the dam.
I would think that there is a lot of risk associated with owning an electric plant.
There are already plenty of gigantic dams around the world. Many of which sell almost free electricity, if you are willing to be located next to the dam.
M⛏
00:40
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
What kind of savages hate dogs? 🐕. I may have to rethink my support for this community 🧐
Z
00:41
Zack
According to twitter 7% of us.
Which is about 7 times more than twitter's average.
Which is about 7 times more than twitter's average.
A
Z
20:54
Zack
How do US taxes work for mining pool operators?
Do I need to submit records for every time my pool found a block, and the price of Veo at that moment in time?
Do I need to submit records for every time my pool found a block, and the price of Veo at that moment in time?
AK
21:09
A K
Not a us tax attorney, but unless you're running an enterprise you might not be able to offset the cost
21:09
Meaning acquisition price = 0 for taxes
Z
21:10
Zack
Those are some big words. I don't know what you are saying.
21:10
Deleted Account
In my series of «understanding state channels» questions: what exact state is stored in a state channel? At every intersection, are the two parties signing: balance+contract, or is the balance also specified in the code? Is this state (prev balance) fed into the code as an input, or is it just «search+replaced» into the signed code before signing?
AK
21:11
A K
If you sell sell veo from mining, tax base might be full sale amount , without any reference to price at the time you mined it
Z
21:13
Zack
In reply to this message
oh, I get it. so I would only pay taxes on any capital gains.
That isn't good, since for crypto capital gains I would have to submit so much information.
That isn't good, since for crypto capital gains I would have to submit so much information.
AK
21:14
A K
If you create a corporation though, you must probably will be able to offset electricity costs and equipment depreciation
21:14
Corp tax laws are friendlier
Z
21:14
Zack
I don't use any mining hardware, so that isn't an issue for me.
AK
21:15
A K
Ah then yes, if you just receive veo for running a pool, then you track a "fair price" at the moment you receive it
21:15
That's pretty straightforward
Z
21:15
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/trees/channels.erl#L8
Here is the on-chain data stored for every channel.
It includes the initial balance each of the 2 participants has.
Here is the on-chain data stored for every channel.
It includes the initial balance each of the 2 participants has.
AK
21:16
A K
"fair price" in case if veo is a matter of debate ) but unless you're running huge volumes or irs suspects you're trying to screw them, you should be ok
Z
21:16
Zack
In reply to this message
so I pay taxes on the fair price as income?
Do I need to submit records for every time my pool found a block?
Do I need to submit records for every time my pool found a block?
AK
21:16
A K
You got 1 veo today , price is 100 USD, you recognize income of 100 USD for tax purposes
21:17
I guess you still file once a year
Z
21:17
Zack
great, makes sense.
But do I need to record the dates and quantities of veo I received? or can I just tell them the sum of my income?
But do I need to record the dates and quantities of veo I received? or can I just tell them the sum of my income?
AK
21:17
A K
Problem in US is that any time you exchange veo for anything, crypto or USD, that's a taxable event
21:18
Not sure if that'll need to be included in filings
21:20
Deleted Account
I have no idea about US laws, but if your company (?) owns the pool, then you earn x veo and then give y veo to your miners. you should only have to tax the net profit
21:21
Could be possible as a private person as well, probably requiring more paperwork
Z
21:21
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/records.hrl#L3
This is the off-chain portion of the channel that both participants need to sign.
the
We don't feed any prev balance state into any code. we don't search and replace anything.
If you are account #1 in the channel, then when the channel closes you get: the amount of money initially locked into the channel +
This is the off-chain portion of the channel that both participants need to sign.
the
amount is how much veo will be transferred between the two participants.We don't feed any prev balance state into any code. we don't search and replace anything.
If you are account #1 in the channel, then when the channel closes you get: the amount of money initially locked into the channel +
amount from the spk + sum of amounts outputted by each smart contract in the spk.
21:23
Deleted Account
This is for the market in particular? Or all state channels in general?
Z
21:23
Zack
this is how state channels work.
21:23
Deleted Account
I promise to write a blog post on this if I ever figure it out...
Z
21:23
Zack
the amount in spk can be negative. the amounts outputted by smart contracts can be negative.
21:24
spk is "script pubkey". it works the same way as the script pubkey in a bitcoin transaction.
Amoveo smart contracts also have a script-sig, which works the same was as the script-sig in bitcoin transactions.
Amoveo smart contracts also have a script-sig, which works the same was as the script-sig in bitcoin transactions.
21:25
Chalang is like a cross between bitcoin script and ethereum's VM.
21:25
Deleted Account
the bets list contains the complete history of bets?
Z
21:25
Zack
no.
21:26
It only has bets which you currently have money staked in.
21:27
The whole point of channels is to reduce the amount of code that gets written to the blockchain. This makes the blockchain smaller, and protects you privacy.
So we don't store pointless historical data which would waste space and ruin your privacy.
So we don't store pointless historical data which would waste space and ruin your privacy.
21:28
Deleted Account
So if i undestand correctly, the two parties in the state channel will agree on the result of a bet and sign a new state? and this happens at any time?
Z
21:29
Zack
the two participants can update the channel whenever they want.
21:29
Deleted Account
This means also that both parties need to have the same understanding of reality (outside data).
21:30
So they can come up with the exact same code, using aforementioned API, and both sign it
Z
21:30
Zack
if they are in disagreement, then they can post the contract to the blockchain and let the blockchain decide how to fairly divide the VEO.
21:31
a pointless exercise, since they can both calculate what the blockchain will decide.
21:32
Deleted Account
I think I should be able to understand some of the code at this point...
Z
21:32
Zack
I don't know what API you are talking about.
You can use any method of communication to agree on a smart contract.
We could write it out on paper, and discuss it in person.
We could come to an agreement over the phone.
We could use morris code with flags to come to an agreement from across a big field.
You can use any method of communication to agree on a smart contract.
We could write it out on paper, and discuss it in person.
We could come to an agreement over the phone.
We could use morris code with flags to come to an agreement from across a big field.
21:33
Deleted Account
I thing the overall principle has been clear all along, but the implementation details are still vague for me
21:34
You mentioned earlier that sharing code through a predefined API would be the most common way to share code...
21:35
It seems to me that these other methods would require substantial knowledge of Amoveo, or specialized software
21:35
Right now it seems the code is produced by the Amoveo server and wallet?
Z
21:35
Zack
there are 3 smart contracts hard-coded into the light node. only 2 of them currently work.
Z
23:27
Zack
We can't expect users to read a smart contract and verify it does what they expect.
Neither can we trust the channel hubs to give us the correct contract.
The only choice I can see is to hard code a bunch of contracts into the wallet.
Neither can we trust the channel hubs to give us the correct contract.
The only choice I can see is to hard code a bunch of contracts into the wallet.
23:47
Deleted Account
I see. I think its the right call. Both sides need to come up with the exact same bytecode in order to know what to sign
23:48
You cant verify by reading the bytecode, only by using a known contract
Z
23:50
Zack
technically speaking, Chalang bytecode can be verified. which is one of the big advantages of Amoveo over competitors like Ethereum.
Trying to verify a smart contract in Ethereum involves verifying the entire solidity compiler.
But you are correct in that the average user can't verify the bytecode of a chalang smart contract.
Trying to verify a smart contract in Ethereum involves verifying the entire solidity compiler.
But you are correct in that the average user can't verify the bytecode of a chalang smart contract.
AK
23:58
A K
verified as in disassembled into readable code?
29 October 2018
Z
00:01
Zack
that is part of it.
An Ethereum smart contract has gotos. when a goto is called, the code can jump anywhere depending on the contents of a variable.
In order to verify that no one can steal from you in a contract, you need to consider all the ways that the contract can execute.
If you try to calculate all the ways that an Ethereum contract could execute, it would take millions of years.
Because every goto can jump to many different possible places.
Chalang uses functions instead of gotos.
So there are fewer ways for the code to execute.
So you can consider all the ways for a contract to execute in less than a second.
An Ethereum smart contract has gotos. when a goto is called, the code can jump anywhere depending on the contents of a variable.
In order to verify that no one can steal from you in a contract, you need to consider all the ways that the contract can execute.
If you try to calculate all the ways that an Ethereum contract could execute, it would take millions of years.
Because every goto can jump to many different possible places.
Chalang uses functions instead of gotos.
So there are fewer ways for the code to execute.
So you can consider all the ways for a contract to execute in less than a second.
SS
00:02
Spike Spiegel
So one can formally verify the code?
Z
00:04
Zack
solidity uses functions, so assuming that the solidity compiler was secure, then it wouldn't be too difficult to verify solidity code.
The problem is that the compiler is huge, and it is being updated frequently. I doubt anyone can know for sure if the solidity compiler is secure.
A smart contract's bytecode can be very tiny.
Instead of trying to verify a giant compiler, we should verify a small contract's bytecode.
The problem is that the compiler is huge, and it is being updated frequently. I doubt anyone can know for sure if the solidity compiler is secure.
A smart contract's bytecode can be very tiny.
Instead of trying to verify a giant compiler, we should verify a small contract's bytecode.
AK
00:19
A K
that’s much better. however still the problem plaguing all smart contract blockchains persists.
00:20
“How can I trust that the smart contract does what it creator says it does”
00:20
it’s relatively easy to verify an address balance in BTC
00:21
i don’t know of any solution that would help common folk judge the smart contract legitimacy and correctness
00:22
maybe when we solve General AI )
00:22
we will have a smart contract verifier
00:25
and asdie
00:26
aside from contracts code, as Parity bug showed, there’s also smart contract’s state to be verified...
00:26
not sure if amoveo susceptible to same bug
Z
00:34
Zack
we also have the problem of "how can I trust that this light wallet does what the creator says it does?"
AK
00:36
A K
Parity did not have a multisig problem, it had a contract state problem
00:36
nothing in the bug was related to multisig
00:36
they didn’t call the init()
00:37
so the code being correct didn’t help them
Z
00:37
Zack
there is no on-chain state for anyone to mess up in Amoveo.
Each contract is only known to the 2 participants.
Each contract is only known to the 2 participants.
AK
00:37
A K
is it possible for one party to intentionally fuck with state? like, don’t call init() or smth?
Z
00:38
Zack
there is no real comparison of ethereum bugs vs amoveo bugs.
The programming environment is radically different.
The programming environment is radically different.
00:39
In reply to this message
there is no
There is nothing to "call".
If you had a contract for a lease to rent a house, could your landlord harm you by calling
The landlord can only do whatever you signed in the contract. He can't change anything after you signed.
Amoveo contracts are the same way.
init.There is nothing to "call".
If you had a contract for a lease to rent a house, could your landlord harm you by calling
init()?The landlord can only do whatever you signed in the contract. He can't change anything after you signed.
Amoveo contracts are the same way.
00:40
Programming Amoveo contracts is very similar to legalese for employment contracts, or lease contracts, life insurance contracts, health insurance, car insurance, or things like that.
Programming Etehreum contracts is very similar to programming a computer.
They are totally different from each other.
Programming Etehreum contracts is very similar to programming a computer.
They are totally different from each other.
l
M⛏
01:06
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
You should for your personal records and in case you get audited. It would be the only time you need it
01:17
Deleted Account
I think the Amoveo way is very good. You trust your wallet to produce a valid contract, and the server to produce the same contract. This way you dont really worry about what someone committed to the blockchain (eth). The one problem I see is that you need access to the wallet in order to make a specialized contract. This might be improved in the future if the wallet supported a library of contracts that was easier to add to than the wallet itself
01:17
like a code package manager for code
01:18
Also, it could be difficult to update the wallet code, the server must support any wallet the user has
Z
01:22
Zack
you don't trust the server. you check that the contract that the server signed is identical with the one that you generate.
If someone has an idea for a new contract, we should discuss it as a community and put it into our community wallet.
The vast majority of people wanting to offer Amoveo secured services are probably best suited to just use one of the existing contracts. They are made to be versatile.
Combining different contracts is like another layer of programming.
Since each individual contract is secure, we know that any combination is secure. So this is a way to give application developers a lot of freedom, and we don't have to install a new wallet.
If someone has an idea for a new contract, we should discuss it as a community and put it into our community wallet.
The vast majority of people wanting to offer Amoveo secured services are probably best suited to just use one of the existing contracts. They are made to be versatile.
Combining different contracts is like another layer of programming.
Since each individual contract is secure, we know that any combination is secure. So this is a way to give application developers a lot of freedom, and we don't have to install a new wallet.
01:24
For example, the scalar market contract has some variables, so you can customize the amount of leverage in the contract, and you can customize how wide the margin is.
By using several of these contracts with different variables, you can efficiently create a synthetic asset of any financial instrument you could be interested in.
By using several of these contracts with different variables, you can efficiently create a synthetic asset of any financial instrument you could be interested in.
MF
01:25
Mr Flintstone
since the contract isn’t on chain can we use the oracle to checksum it? Something along the lines of : a safe cfd contract has hash x
01:26
safety criteria might be hard to describe objectively
Z
01:26
Zack
you could ask "will someone prove that contract with hash X is insecure before this oracle expires."
MF
01:26
Mr Flintstone
nice
Z
01:27
Zack
Im not sure it would work
01:27
oracles can only report on the past, and prediction markets can only bet on the outcome of an oracle
01:28
I think this oracle wouldn't increase our security
MF
01:28
Mr Flintstone
if the security flaw in the contract isn’t directly profitable to exploit we may not find out about it
Z
01:29
Zack
If we could use the oracle this way, then why not use the oracle to prove there are no more bugs in Amoveo's source?
MF
01:29
Mr Flintstone
the contract isn’t amoveo source tho
Z
01:29
Zack
oh, you are trying to make something like a dominant assurance contract
01:29
to pay someone to hunt for bugs in the smart contract
MF
01:29
Mr Flintstone
right
Z
01:29
Zack
yeah, that could work
01:30
we could probably do this for Amoveo source too. To pay people for finding security flaws
01:31
I wonder what would be the best way to set up a market for this.
01:31
Deleted Account
What I was saying about «search and replace» was my understanding that to put eg an oracle ID in a contract, you would add a statement to add this address to the stack at the beginning of your code before signing it on the channel. If this is correct it doesnt make sense to verify the contract with a hash
Z
01:31
Zack
it seems like the initial incentive is for them to buy a big leveraged short of veo, and then to do the exploit to hurt the price and profit.
MF
01:32
Mr Flintstone
but I was thinking more along the lines of using the oracle to ensure that you for sure have the right copy of the contract in your wallet and not a malicious one
01:32
or a right copy
Z
01:32
Zack
In reply to this message
yes, that is how it works. I should have understood before.
The chalang contract hardcoded into javascript has some empty parts, and you insert both your pubkeys for example.
The chalang contract hardcoded into javascript has some empty parts, and you insert both your pubkeys for example.
01:33
Deleted Account
:) so im getting closer to understanding this now
Z
01:33
Zack
In reply to this message
yes, that makes sense. We can use the oracle for decentralized cryptographic checksum.
That kind of reminds me of the token-curated-registry fad that people have been talking about lately.
It is a good idea.
That kind of reminds me of the token-curated-registry fad that people have been talking about lately.
It is a good idea.
01:36
Deleted Account
The funny thing is that the state channels dont contain any state in the Ethereum sense. This will confuse people for a long time yet. All state is embedded into the code that both parties sign
Z
01:37
Zack
the 2 participants are signing a contract.
That entire contract is state.
That entire contract is state.
01:37
the ethereum community calls this structure a state channel when they talk about implementing it
01:38
although ours is different because it is programmable.
01:41
Deleted Account
Has anyone else implemented state channels like this? This structure is very different from lightning network and ethereum. If it turns out well this could be a big leap for crypto in general...
Z
01:42
Zack
AE is trying
01:43
Deleted Account
Ae is supporting solitidy...
01:43
That means it has to be more like Eth
01:43
I think Æ will support ICOs onchain like Eth
Z
01:44
Zack
it is like a frankenstein of ethereum and amoveo, except without a working oracle or governance mechanism.
01:45
Deleted Account
Hehe
01:45
Frankensteins Monster?
Z
01:47
Zack
Building the market inside the lightning network took me more time in comparison to building the blockchain.
M
01:48
Mike
Why are you worried about tax in the US?
Z
01:48
Zack
I should be able to end my citizenship soon, but they want me to pay tax until my last day as a citizen.
01:49
Deleted Account
Amoveo state channels are much more approachable than BTC lightning network. I believe they are not equivalent. Because they dont support oracles and code
M
01:49
Mike
Have you been living outside the US for more than 6 months of 2018?
Z
01:49
Zack
yes
AK
01:49
A K
US taxes worldwide income
OK
01:50
O K
Hire professional
AK
01:50
A K
two countries in the world, famoulsy ) US and Erithrea
M
01:50
Mike
Foreign income isn’t taxed as much as cap gains
01:51
Should probably have a corporation in whatever company you’re in and pay business taxes there
01:51
Country**
AK
01:51
A K
long term cap gains has a very favourable rate AFAIR, better than income tax in ths US
Z
01:51
Zack
what income would be considered business income?
M
01:52
Mike
Depends on how you can define the dev reward
OK
01:52
O K
This is why you should hire a professional
01:52
You are in a tier where it will save you money
M
01:53
Mike
Yeah, a professional is the correct move 100%
AK
01:55
A K
considering the outcome of the interview discussion, I suggest we jump straight to setting up an oracle for that decision
01:58
not trying to create FUD, but it would be absolutely terrible to recognize gains before dev fee is unlocked and watch VEO crash after that. that happens with stock options (?) in startups, that’s why ppl switched to Restricted Stock Units
Z
01:58
Zack
usually the reason to push income through a business is to protect yourself from legal risk.
AK
01:58
A K
that’s a very good reason, limited liability
MF
01:59
Mr Flintstone
imagine if someone gifted 1 mn usd in dentacoin to your eth pubkey that you didn’t realize you had until it was down 98%
01:59
you still owe capital gains on the value when you received it
01:59
income tax actually
02:00
but still
AK
02:00
A K
In reply to this message
i’m just so happy i’m not a US tax resident every time I think about it
Z
02:01
Zack
I bet you could work out some deal with the IRS in that weird dentacoin situation.
AK
02:02
A K
ppl got burned like that in startups
02:02
for real
02:02
you get options, startup IPOs at X, you’re liable for tax on valuation X
02:02
can’t sell for 1 year
02:02
stock crashes
02:03
you’re still liable
OK
02:03
O K
We could hard fork so that it automatically pays out when it unlocks to a new address
02:03
Either way hire a professional
Z
02:05
Zack
money only works on a blockchain if it is fungible.
The dev address is a single known address, it could be hard forked deleted at any time.
It seems to me that I don't own anything yet.
This is not an option, it is not a stock.
The dev address is a single known address, it could be hard forked deleted at any time.
It seems to me that I don't own anything yet.
This is not an option, it is not a stock.
MF
AK
02:05
A K
we should do our best to make Zack only liable to account for income when dev fee unlocks, and Zack should hire a tax attorney
02:06
and we should jump to oracle as I said already )
OK
02:06
O K
Yes, the dev fee account is clearly just a custodial account
02:06
No one owns it until Zack pays himself
02:06
Eh?
AK
MF
OK
02:06
O K
Zack should absolutely hire tax professionals
Z
02:09
Zack
even a soft fork could delete the dev reward
IP
02:09
I P
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😁, 26.6 KB
SS
03:14
Spike Spiegel
When dev stake would be unlocked?
Z
03:14
Zack
around 52k I think
03:14
block height
SS
03:14
Spike Spiegel
btw you don't pay long term capital gains on crypto in Germany AFAIK
Z
03:15
Zack
great
SS
03:15
Spike Spiegel
So if you can prove that you were hodling for at least 1 year then you can probably enjoy 0% tax rate (legally if you are german tax resident)
AK
03:36
A K
trick is to get rid of US tax residency before that
Z
04:57
Zack
It looks like scalar oracles and CFDs are working. So we should be able to make stablecoins now.
M
06:26
Person who gives the gift has to pay the tax to prevent silly situations like you described.
MF
06:31
Mr Flintstone
rip that situation then lol
06:31
I guess that would mean airdrops aren’t taxed until you sell?
AK
06:39
A K
How would you tax an anonymous overseas person?
06:40
You're saying IRS would just say "ah it's a gift so you're alright"? I doubt :-/
Z
06:40
Zack
Can this be used offensively?
If you own 100% of a cryptocurrency, you could make the price look like anything at any time.
Then reuse bitcoin addresses of your targets, so they don't even know when they received your altcoin.
If you own 100% of a cryptocurrency, you could make the price look like anything at any time.
Then reuse bitcoin addresses of your targets, so they don't even know when they received your altcoin.
06:41
An anonymous person could target every known IRS agent this way, at almost no cost.
running a small exchange.
running a small exchange.
AK
06:41
A K
Yeah I guess crypto is the first asset you can forcedly give )
Z
06:42
Zack
oh, I guess it only works against people who own bitcoin and publicly posted an address
AK
06:42
A K
Very curious to see any precedent
06:42
Well it's not that easy, remember "fair reasonable price"? Wouldn't pass that test
PB
06:50
Phil Bonello
What is the best mechanism for driving liquidity to an Amoveo market? Would there be any incentive for market makers to bootstrap liquidity? This is probably more of an application problem
Z
06:51
Zack
if the existence of the market is known to more people who own veo, then I bet you would get a higher volume of betters
06:53
the person running the market's server will want there to be lots of traders, so he makes more profit.
I guess he is incentivized to bring in liquidity.
I guess he is incentivized to bring in liquidity.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
07:13
Deleted Account
Somebody can help from amoveo exchange
07:13
Pleasee
SS
S
M
09:41
Mike
In reply to this message
You still pay capital gains when you sell if it appreciates. The giver would already have paid their ordinary income tax rate on what they’re giving you. Since an airdrop is out of thin air, their cost basis is $0, so you’re on the hook for capital gain tax when you sell for 100% of what you’re selling.
09:45
I plan on paying tax on altcoins I’ve sold to bitcoin, and anything I’ve sold to USD.
h
09:58
hewwo
Or just don't pay
T
10:55
Topab
In reply to this message
The 0.02 veo of the question oracle, is this money shared among those who verify the fact? (liers money go to truth verifiers I am ssuming but I think this case will not be very common) Should not be the question oracle cost proportional to the money being bet in its corresponding market?
Z
10:56
Zack
the oracle has an order book. it matches bets at 50-50 odds.
The 0.02 is counted as a losing bet, whichever side ends up losing.
The 0.02 is counted as a losing bet, whichever side ends up losing.
GJ
11:17
Guillermo Joya
Are you guys and gals still using Coinbase ?
T
11:56
Topab
In reply to this message
Nash equilibrium shouls make people honest, therefore the chances to get more than the 0.02 veo in the oracle is very low. Do you think there will be people betting on oracles if there is not a bigger incentive? (for example a proportion of the market money the oracle solves)
Benito invited Benito
16:36
Deleted Account
I wrote a blog post about how Amoveo implements code in state channels https://medium.com/@tallakt/amoveos-smart-contracts-30cff9e5459e
Deleted invited Deleted Account
IP
17:14
I P
In reply to this message
nice post, great read for people who don't want to go with their head right into the code but like to know how this works on a basic level
30 October 2018
A
00:06
Aries
Let's place bets on Brazil
00:07
I mean predictions 😉
00:07
🇧🇷🔥🔥🔥
Z
00:23
Zack
Bets on what? The value of a real? (Their currency)
A
00:27
Aries
military coup, central banks failing, civil war, I mean this new guy is worst than Trump.
AK
00:38
A K
civil wars and coupes usually happen with leftist govts though )
00:39
with trump us stock market up 50% or maybe more..
MF
00:39
Mr Flintstone
it is profitable to host a market for this kind of thing
Z
00:39
Zack
Should we try to convince amoveo book to host it?
MF
00:41
Mr Flintstone
isn’t it programmed so that the host of the server gets the fee immediately?
00:42
the channel fee
Z
00:43
Zack
Right
G
Z
05:05
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/api/commands_oracle.md
Here is documentation to create a scalar oracle.
Here is documentation to create a scalar oracle.
05:06
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/api/commands_market.md
here is documentation to create a scalar oracle
here is documentation to create a scalar oracle
05:06
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/tests/scalar_market.py
Here is an integration test that creates a scalar market, puts bets in it, and then closes it.
Here is an integration test that creates a scalar market, puts bets in it, and then closes it.
SS
05:58
Spike Spiegel
Can amoveo work without port 8080?
Z
05:59
Zack
you can use a light node.
You can sync with the network without giving access to your 8080 to the network, but your node wont automatically stay in sync.
You can sync with the network without giving access to your 8080 to the network, but your node wont automatically stay in sync.
05:59
to keep bandwidth costs lower, and keep speeds fast, blocks are shared by pushing them, not by pulling them.
SS
06:01
Spike Spiegel
That's new - how it works and what's the difference between bitcoin sync model?
06:02
BTW it seems blocks are processed blazingly fast
06:02
6k under a minute
Z
06:03
Zack
our blocks are mostly empty.
Also you are processing them in parallel. Different cores are working on different blocks at the same time.
Also you are processing them in parallel. Different cores are working on different blocks at the same time.
SS
06:04
Spike Spiegel
Woudn't it be nice to have this pretty printed?
Z
06:04
Zack
I don't know very much about bitcoin's model.
I did a lot of trial and error, asked some different people for advice, and it is basically working.
I wouldn't be surprised if all the syncing code is rewritten within a year, we can probably do a lot better.
But it seems to be working fine for now.
I did a lot of trial and error, asked some different people for advice, and it is basically working.
I wouldn't be surprised if all the syncing code is rewritten within a year, we can probably do a lot better.
But it seems to be working fine for now.
SS
06:04
Spike Spiegel
Z
06:05
Zack
try
rp(X). where X is the thing you want to print, then at least you see everything
06:05
you can do erlang commands to take apart that big list of oracles to find the ones you want.
06:06
also, I bet whatever you are doing would work better with one of the other commands for querying oracles.
If you print them all out like that then it is hard to find anything.
If you print them all out like that then it is hard to find anything.
06:06
like
oracles:ready_for_bets().
06:06
or
oracles:ready_to_close().
06:09
I want to do a hard update.
There is a bug with governance fees.
They are supposed to be deleted. It is important for certain attacks.
But currently they are being paid to the mining pool that finds the block.
I want the community to do an update to fix this. I am planning that we should do it by height 39500, which is in about 2 days.
Can we update between now and then?
@potat_o @Simon3456
There is a bug with governance fees.
They are supposed to be deleted. It is important for certain attacks.
But currently they are being paid to the mining pool that finds the block.
I want the community to do an update to fix this. I am planning that we should do it by height 39500, which is in about 2 days.
Can we update between now and then?
@potat_o @Simon3456
OK
06:09
O K
2 days is fine
Z
06:10
Zack
great
SS
06:11
Spike Spiegel
BTW where to get pricing for oracles?
Z
06:13
Zack
it is a governance variable
trees:dict_tree_get(governance, oracle_question_liquidity).
06:13
that is the price for 1 oracle. if you make 10, then it costs 10x as much.
SS
06:14
Spike Spiegel
** exception error: {badrecord,gov}
in function governance:get_value/2 (/Users/phoebe/Projects/amoveo/_build/prod/lib/amoveo_core/src/consensus/trees/governance.erl, line 110)
in function governance:get_value/2 (/Users/phoebe/Projects/amoveo/_build/prod/lib/amoveo_core/src/consensus/trees/governance.erl, line 110)
Z
06:14
Zack
is your node fully synced?
SS
06:15
Spike Spiegel
Api height 39198
Z
06:16
Zack
maybe I spelled a word wrong
06:17
trees:dict_tree_get(governance, oracle_question_liquidity).
2210247
I am guessing you only synced headers, not blocks.
06:18
block:height().
SS
06:18
Spike Spiegel
7599
Z
06:29
Zack
I pushed an update to github to fix how brain wallets work in the light node.
So old brain wallets will no longer work. because the rules for generating them are all different now.
So old brain wallets will no longer work. because the rules for generating them are all different now.
SS
06:39
Spike Spiegel
I'm getting 2210247
06:39
What are units? How to read it?
Z
06:39
Zack
right. that is in satoshis, so it is 0.0221 veo
SS
06:46
Spike Spiegel
trees.dict_tree_get(oracles,204) <== doesn't return oracle with id 204
06:47
I assume it's id for oracle,<<204,139,83,243,83,207,240,198
Z
06:47
Zack
an oracle id is a 32 byte value
06:47
and it should be
with the symbol with 2 dots.
trees:dict_...with the symbol with 2 dots.
06:49
you can look up oracles more easily from a light node
06:51
if you base64 encode the 32 byte binary, it is in the right format to insert into a light node
S
06:53
Sy
2 days to Update is np
Z
06:54
Zack
great. Sy and OK are on board so far, still waiting for xdpool and Comino.
A
08:06
Aries
Zack check your email
SS
10:33
Spike Spiegel
In some point in time it would be economically feasible to put factory of solar panels in space and mine crypto - and probably even one can fund such thing via insured crowdfunding
Bitcoin PoW is already 1% of world energy supply
Bitcoin PoW is already 1% of world energy supply
10:34
The Schelling point of futarchy is inevitable dyson sphere
Z
10:35
Zack
I wonder how long it will be until people can build ASICS off-planet from materials harvested off-planet.
10:35
I guess if we had a space elevator, that wouldn't be so important
SS
10:36
Spike Spiegel
Fun fact - you don't even have to create vacuum - crystals grow better in zero g so one can get better yield / faster cores
10:37
Also economy - let's say sending self sufficient colony to Mars is 1T or any $$$ - such investment would never actually return the money back if you cannot tax Martians
Z
10:39
Zack
I think Mennonites will settle most places first, and their community will work together to afford it.
10:40
Their culture is most strict about using self-sufficient technology
A
10:49
Aries
Or the communities already exist
10:49
(Cough Solar Warden cough)
SS
10:51
Spike Spiegel
1. Cost to send people there must be paid upfront
2. Once colony is there they may refuse to pay it back
Unsolvable unless you have people hardcoded to payback or something like this (religious groups may work)
2. Once colony is there they may refuse to pay it back
Unsolvable unless you have people hardcoded to payback or something like this (religious groups may work)
Z
10:52
Zack
The people who pay are the same ones who go.
10:52
Just like buying a plane ticket to move to a new country
SS
10:52
Spike Spiegel
What if it would cost like 1B per person?
Z
10:53
Zack
just send one trillionaire who wants to be king of Mars.
10:53
he can pay for his loyal subjects
SS
10:57
Spike Spiegel
I always wondered why libertarians / anarchists wouldn't just go to Somalia or some absolutely bad place where nobody else is willing to live to start a colony there.
Z
11:00
Zack
The majority of jobs world wide are in the black market.
You can be a good anarchist almost anywhere.
You can be a good anarchist almost anywhere.
11:01
Religious fundamentalists are the ones who would want to go to a new planet.
So they can rub in our faces how much less sinful they are.
So they can rub in our faces how much less sinful they are.
SS
11:01
Spike Spiegel
👌
11:02
TBH I see https://nomadlist.com/ as some kind of such society - highly skilled nomads aren't bound to countries and they may move to another place even just to enjoy lower pollution rate
11:03
Hard to confiscate / steal somebody's intelectual ability
S
GG invited GG
IP
18:28
I P
In reply to this message
because it is much more likely to get robbed/killed/getting really sick in somalia compared to san francisco
Hoshi invited Hoshi
IP
18:39
I P
easy to be libertarian and anarchist when living in first world countries
AK
18:48
A K
easier to be leftist and socialist in first world countries, too
S
19:03
Sy
easiest to talk the talk and never walk the walk at all...plus first world xD
OK
19:45
O K
Most things are easier in first world countries.
To me it's because if I want to maximise the potential for voluntary interactions and minimise exposure violence and coercion, neither somalia nor San Fran seem like very good choices.
To me it's because if I want to maximise the potential for voluntary interactions and minimise exposure violence and coercion, neither somalia nor San Fran seem like very good choices.
pakka pamma invited pakka pamma
Jacksome invited Jacksome
J
20:25
Jacksome
hi,everybody, what is the max supply of this coin?
Z
20:25
Zack
Getting sick in San Francisco might be worse than Somalia.
You could end up with unpayable medical debt.
You could end up with unpayable medical debt.
20:26
There is no max.
J
20:26
Jacksome
thank you!
20:26
😂
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
20:39
Zack
People on Twitter are using $Veo to talk about amoveo.
Z
21:15
Zack
Historically, there have been many large institutions guiding cooperation between groups of people.
Usually, the participants of an institution, whether it be religious, or military, or burocratic, the participants don't know why it works the way it does.
These institutions have been created by an evolutionary process. The institutions which can cause cooperation more effectively out-competing those institutions which are less effective.
So the participants in an institution of cooperation depend on a narrative. This is a story that they tell themselves to try and explain why their institution behaves how it does. A narrative is usually not factual. It is an important story we all know to help us all think similarly about our institution so that we can communicate about the institution effectively.
I am thinking that we need to build a similar narrative for Amoveo.
The majority of users don't want to study mathematics or game theory.
But currently if they don't learn the math, it is hard to have any meaningful discussion of amoveo.
So now I am trying to write the narrative:
Amoveo is a tool for effectively asking questions to God. If God responds to some of us, we can then use a prediction market to securely share the news. That way we can all know what God wants of us, without having to trust any mortal to be a middle man to God.
Usually, the participants of an institution, whether it be religious, or military, or burocratic, the participants don't know why it works the way it does.
These institutions have been created by an evolutionary process. The institutions which can cause cooperation more effectively out-competing those institutions which are less effective.
So the participants in an institution of cooperation depend on a narrative. This is a story that they tell themselves to try and explain why their institution behaves how it does. A narrative is usually not factual. It is an important story we all know to help us all think similarly about our institution so that we can communicate about the institution effectively.
I am thinking that we need to build a similar narrative for Amoveo.
The majority of users don't want to study mathematics or game theory.
But currently if they don't learn the math, it is hard to have any meaningful discussion of amoveo.
So now I am trying to write the narrative:
Amoveo is a tool for effectively asking questions to God. If God responds to some of us, we can then use a prediction market to securely share the news. That way we can all know what God wants of us, without having to trust any mortal to be a middle man to God.
SS
21:17
Spike Spiegel
Amoveo is a tool for effectively asking questions to Greed
Z
21:18
Zack
Greed often lies.
Amoveo can only reveal truths.
Amoveo can only reveal truths.
SS
21:23
Spike Spiegel
Tempting to create binary oracle with question "Does the god exist"
21:25
21:29
It's similar to old fashion trial by combat
Z
21:31
Zack
You can only ask the amoveo oracle questions which will become common knowledge in the future.
So you can't ask it if God exists.
You can ask it "will the Pope deny gods existence in the next 3 months?"
So you can't ask it if God exists.
You can ask it "will the Pope deny gods existence in the next 3 months?"
S
22:29
Sy
which i wouldnt really call common knowledge...
Z
22:37
Zack
what would you call it?
22:41
Comino, Sy, and OK are all on board for the hard update.
I still haven't heard from xdpool
I still haven't heard from xdpool
OK
22:42
O K
Is the update ready
Z
22:42
Zack
yes, i merged it into main branch like 12 hours ago
A
22:47
Aries
In reply to this message
the documentary people called me last night, check your email....
OK
AK
22:48
A K
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
OK
22:49
O K
Do you need a virtual assistant to check your email for you?
MF
Aries invited Deleted Account
Z
22:58
Zack
Someone else should do it, I don't want to deal with this.
OK
22:59
O K
Send me the credentials and I will set it up
A
22:59
Aries
smh
23:00
were never gonna get any new blood or interest at this rate
S
23:01
Sebsebzen
Can I help with something
23:01
Zack this is really rare chance to gain traction and realize your vision for the coin
23:01
*project
Z
23:02
Zack
Making a fad isn't my vision.
23:02
My vision is to make something invisible, that people barely realize exists.
OK
23:02
O K
Like betamax ?
S
23:03
Sebsebzen
i just wanted to mention that
Z
23:03
Zack
like http
A
23:03
Aries
setting the record straight with what happened with Yani, showcasing to the world why this is the biggest David vs Goliath project in crypto on HBO or Netflix is not a fad
S
23:03
Sebsebzen
http has a W3C with hundreds of people
A
23:04
Aries
being on a documentary that vitalik is also on
23:04
how is that a fad
S
OK
Z
23:10
Zack
You should do it OK
OK
23:10
O K
The people don't want me as the face of this project
23:10
We believe in you
AK
A
23:11
Aries
Zack i was asked to consult and find real projects
23:11
AMOVEO is a REAL Project
OK
23:11
O K
Your interview on Economics Detective was very good
AK
OK
23:12
O K
You can do this
A
23:12
Aries
you can write the destiny for Veo
23:12
talk to Jon
23:12
i know he wrote back to you
23:12
after i got off the phone with him
MF
23:12
Mr Flintstone
the only way we’re gonna convince zack that doing this will increase the price of his veo is to use a market
Z
23:12
Zack
haha, I was homeless when I did the economics detective interview.
I guess I don't feel so desperate any more.
I guess I don't feel so desperate any more.
23:13
Jon never contacted me, only his assistant Christina
AK
23:13
A K
can anyone but Zack create a market?
Z
23:13
Zack
and she ghosted me for 4 days
MF
23:13
Mr Flintstone
anyone can create it
AK
23:13
A K
practically, i mean
MF
23:13
Mr Flintstone
yeah
OK
23:13
O K
Assistants are a great way to save time, you should consider one yourself
AK
MF
23:13
Mr Flintstone
amoveobook runs markets too
23:13
this will probably be a popular market
A
23:13
Aries
respond to Christina then
AK
23:13
A K
so who can create a market for Zack going to DiCaprio?
Z
23:14
Zack
I like having a low profile.
DV
23:15
Denis Voskvitsov
keeping a low profile doesn't make veo more valuable.
MF
23:16
Mr Flintstone
I’ll pay for the question oracle if someone pasted a raw oracle tx
23:17
don’t have full node access atm
Z
23:18
Zack
This is a great opportunity for someone else to get more involved with Amoveo.
Someone in New York should do it, since that is where Jon is.
I am already too involved. We should focus on making me less important, so that Amoveo doesn't have any centralizing risk.
Someone in New York should do it, since that is where Jon is.
I am already too involved. We should focus on making me less important, so that Amoveo doesn't have any centralizing risk.
AK
23:18
A K
what should the oracle ask? “Zack’s interview is done by ... and published before ...” ?
MF
23:18
Mr Flintstone
it will be a combinatorial oracle question
OK
23:20
O K
In reply to this message
It will ask "Zack does the interview and Zack's developer reward is not forked to a burn address"
Z
23:21
Zack
My strategy with violent people is to cut them out of my life entirely.
I have even done this to a couple of relatives.
I am not interested in revenge.
I have even done this to a couple of relatives.
I am not interested in revenge.
A
23:22
Aries
ok hmm
23:22
🤔
MF
23:23
Mr Flintstone
P: veo price is > 500 usd in 2 months; Q: a video of Zack being interviewed for *documentary name* is posted to telegram within 2 months; (P AND Q) OR (!P AND !Q)
Z
23:23
Zack
How am I supposed to keep my location secret if these people want me on video?
MF
23:24
Mr Flintstone
if the price of a “true” option is greater than 0.5, that means there is a positive correlation between zack doing the documentary and the price of veo
A
23:24
Aries
you 2 should talk
23:24
if you want the anon route
Z
23:25
Zack
I can't leave my country currently, and I don't want to reveal my country to them.
OK
23:25
If people can reveal clandestine MDMA labs on camera, I think you can find a way to do this
31 October 2018
M
00:09
Mike
I don’t think zack should be doing it if he doesn’t want to.
00:10
I think we’re all okay with paying him but he doesn’t have to accept and we shouldn’t pressure him
00:10
Sucks that Aries has done a lot of leg work but it seems like it won’t work
A
00:12
Aries
Here’s the thing though
00:12
Zack might be right
00:12
On wanting to be Anonymous/Privacy and we might be wrong
00:12
Not playing devils advocate but
OK
00:12
O K
He's not anonymous, he wants to retain some privacy
00:13
They are different
00:13
His name and face and voice are all already linked
00:13
It seems he doesn't want to reveal his location
00:13
Nor does he want to leave his location
00:13
That's the limiting factor
A
00:13
Aries
Yes but we have no idea the beast Amoveo can one day become
OK
00:14
O K
Name/face/voice is too late
A
00:14
Aries
And it might not be worth having him sacrifice his privacy
OK
00:14
O K
Then he may want to DPR the situation
Z
00:15
Zack
My hope is that more people start getting involved, and I can slowly become less important to Amoveo.
OK
00:16
O K
If you sincerely want that, you need to comment the code better and even name functions and variables better
S
00:16
Sebsebzen
If you go on the interview, maybe the next leadership generation will be inspired to join VEO
00:16
and take more active role
AK
OK
00:16
Can't argue with that
SS
00:21
Spike Spiegel
We can send community spokeperson ;0
00:21
And use futrachy for that
Z
00:22
Zack
It is similar to an election. The candidates for spokes person should make videos explaining why they would be the best representative.
Then we use futarchy to choose one.
Then we use futarchy to choose one.
OK
00:24
O K
Would you be willing to do a voice interview and have a stand in with a ski mask be 'you' for the video, and dub the audio over ?
A
00:24
Aries
didnt Banksy do that
OK
00:24
O K
It could be disinformation at the same time
A
00:24
Aries
for Exit Through the Gift Shop
OK
00:24
O K
Which is good for privacy
Z
00:25
Zack
sure, sounds fun.
00:25
Send me questions, I can send audio responses
OK
A
00:26
Aries
zack going on camera and Tyler Durden soundtrack playing the background
OK
00:26
O K
Sometimes weird is good
00:26
The weirder the better, it will go viral
A
DY
00:27
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
I support this but you probably are aware that there is at least 1 year time for you, plus you need to train at least 1 person who can continue working on the blockchain like you do.
Z
00:29
Zack
Mr Flinstone did most of the work for one of the hard updates to the oracle.
DY
00:29
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
I believe a good way to make you less important is to create rewards similar to dev reward & give them to other members who contribute. What do you think?
Z
00:30
Zack
and I think he has a job, it didn't take long for him to figure it out
00:30
This is a place to discuss Amoveo
OK
00:30
O K
Is anyone not?
DY
00:31
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
So if @Jbreezy0 earns enough from amoveo he can quit his job & take ur place here?
Would he want that?
Would he want that?
Z
00:31
Zack
We should work more on dominant assurance contracts, so we wont need a developer reward
00:32
I am working with exan.tech so they can get paid this way for the iphone and android wallets
DV
00:32
Denis Voskvitsov
yes, we're about to make it
00:36
Deleted Account
Ill go to NY for the interview full name and all. That is how important this chance is for Amoveo. But I cant do this job. Zack needs to or else its worthless
OK
00:37
O K
He has agreed to do audio interview
Z
00:37
Zack
Bitcoin has lots of spokes persons, and I think most are not programmers.
00:37
like Andreas Antonopoulos or Roger Ver
SS
00:46
Spike Spiegel
IHMO Proper model of funding is VC investing 80-90% into asset and 10-20 into dev
00:47
No fighting over rewards or controversies
M
02:53
Mike
Any update on ledger compatibility
Deleted invited Deleted Account
DV
03:08
Denis Voskvitsov
we're building web wallet with ledger support, it required to implement parts of light node from the scratch.
ledger app itself supports signing of basic transaction types and common features like verifying pubkey.
we'll be able to push it for review to Ledger HQ once support in the wallet app is ready, and after that it'll be available to install via ledger manager.
ledger app itself supports signing of basic transaction types and common features like verifying pubkey.
we'll be able to push it for review to Ledger HQ once support in the wallet app is ready, and after that it'll be available to install via ledger manager.
Z
03:08
Zack
That's great
03:09
I am here if you have questions or need help with anything
DV
03:09
Denis Voskvitsov
thanks. we'll have them for sure when we proceed to more complicated features besides just spend txs.
SB
09:42
S B
In reply to this message
I’ve been a long time observer in here and I think I speak for the majority when I say that this is a opportunity we shouldn’t pass up. You’re clearly the best option to represent Amoveo. Is there anything we can do to convince you to take the measures needed to do the segment? There’s gotta be a way.
Deleted Account invited Deleted Account
D
09:57
Deleted Account
Sorry to be a pain guys, I have used the search function, read the wp and tried to find a website.
I was just wondering if you could help me with:
- The emission rate for mining
- How is development being funded
- How many devs are on the team
I was just wondering if you could help me with:
- The emission rate for mining
- How is development being funded
- How many devs are on the team
MF
10:05
Mr Flintstone
current block reward is 0.64 every 10 min plus 0.12 or so (20% of block reward) as dev reward which funds zack
SS
11:18
Spike Spiegel
I always wondered if by micromanagement of supply one could be able to produce stable asset / asset that would be very predictable
11:18
For example one can say:
- if price is below X -> then decrease supply/time
- if price is above X -> increase supply
- if price is below X -> then decrease supply/time
- if price is above X -> increase supply
11:20
Technically you cannot decrease supply (you can reduce issuance of new coins) - but it seems that coins with fixed supply won't be growing if there is no organic demand for them
11:21
How to manipulate demand?
M
M
11:54
Mike
Proof of burn could reduce supply
11:54
Temporarily
PB
13:29
Phil Bonello
In reply to this message
Agree. Greed is predictable. The whole reason any blockchain works. Greed effectively powers all of them. If there's financial opportunity to exploit a network, that turns into motivation which skewes the truth that is output.
13:32
In reply to this message
You're saying the order execution is run at the UX level and executors take a fee of all trading? Not sure if I'm following
0x invited 0x
0
14:45
0x
Did not have a official website for more info?
Z
17:25
Zack
In reply to this message
Smart contracts are inside channels.
If we want to have a smart contract together, we either need a channel between us, or we both need to make a channel with the same server.
If we want to have a smart contract together, we either need a channel between us, or we both need to make a channel with the same server.
T
17:50
Tromp
How do i send veo from light wallet?
17:55
Put pubkey,
Check balance,
Amount to send,
To pubkey,
Sign transaction with private key?
Check balance,
Amount to send,
To pubkey,
Sign transaction with private key?
DV
17:55
Denis Voskvitsov
1) wait for blockchain to synchronize (
2) load your private key into the wallet (
3) put amount to send and receiver pubkey into corresponding fields and click "send"
you also can go to our customized light wallet UI at http://amoveo.exan.tech/
it could be a little more convenient to use.
height counter should be the same as you can see on veoscan.io for instance)2) load your private key into the wallet (
get key from file)3) put amount to send and receiver pubkey into corresponding fields and click "send"
you also can go to our customized light wallet UI at http://amoveo.exan.tech/
it could be a little more convenient to use.
T
17:56
Tromp
Thanks
SS
19:21
Spike Spiegel
Interesting article about Futarchy market setups https://forum.futarchy.xyz/t/introduction-to-prediction-market-setups/35
B
19:38
Blocbits
so im having trouble connecting to stratum+tcp://stratum.amoveopool.com:8822
but i can connect to
http://work.amoveopool.com:8880/
but i can connect to
http://work.amoveopool.com:8880/
19:38
any idea why
Deleted invited Deleted Account
OK
20:07
O K
Replied on discord
Z
20:32
Zack
All 4 mining pools have confirmed that they will be ready for the update.
B
21:16
Blocbits
when is the update?
Z
21:17
Zack
Github is already updated. hard update engages at 39500
Alex Stokes invited Alex Stokes
A K invited C M
Deleted invited Deleted Account
M
22:20
Mike
~60 blocks away
Z
22:20
Zack
I wonder how many full nodes are ready for the update. We have 18 now.
22:21
60 blocks is like 10 hours away still
DV
Z
22:25
Zack
light nodes should not change for this
Tv
22:34
Tarrence van As
I’m running a fullnode at 18.206.158.75:8080 but doesn’t show up in veoscan.io
Z
22:35
Zack
maybe it failed to share your ip address to the network, or not enough time has passed for your ip address to propagate to all the nodes yet
Tv
22:36
Tarrence van As
If I’m peered and 8080 is open then new blocks should be synced automatically right?
Z
22:36
Zack
if you set it up correctly, then it will stay in sync.
DV
23:47
Denis Voskvitsov
does anyone know if http://amoveobook.com/ will work again? right now it shows just a loader.
1 November 2018
MF
00:00
Mr Flintstone
weird
MF
00:42
Mr Flintstone
veo broken on the new blockfolio update for anyone else?
00:42
says 0.013 or so
Z
00:43
Zack
I'm thinking of making a tool like email embedded into amoveo.
With encryption integrated, so you know only the person who owns those Veo can read the message.
And I want to have a smart contract so each message needs a safety deposit. If the recipient thinks that the message is spam, they can destroy the deposit.
With encryption integrated, so you know only the person who owns those Veo can read the message.
And I want to have a smart contract so each message needs a safety deposit. If the recipient thinks that the message is spam, they can destroy the deposit.
00:44
I think I can make it use off the record encryption fairly easily.
But you both need to be online at the same time for that.
But you both need to be online at the same time for that.
00:46
I still think cfds will be the killer app, but spam prevention could be popular too.
Lately a lot of people have been concerned with the security of messaging protocols.
Lately a lot of people have been concerned with the security of messaging protocols.
00:47
We know a blockchain is secure, otherwise the money would get stolen.
So reusing blockchain crypto for messaging is more secure.
So reusing blockchain crypto for messaging is more secure.
AK
01:03
A K
Like BitMessage?
01:03
I think it went nowhere...
01:03
Messaging is all about UX
01:04
0.00001 care about security
01:04
sad but true
01:04
CFDs are the killer app for sure
Z
01:04
Zack
Bitmessage uses pow.
I want to use the lightning network.
I want to use the lightning network.
AK
01:04
A K
any messaging would only gain traction if it has great UX
01:05
like this TG we’re using
01:05
we’re not using Riot or Tox or Signal
01:05
which are more secure, arguably
01:05
we’re not using Mastodon or rocket.chat
01:05
UX wins 10 out of 10 times
Z
01:09
Zack
I'm more interested in creating tools to help people, and less interested in "gaining traction".
There are a small number of people who really need to communicate securely, and none of the tools today are good enough.
Anyway, cfd is already working.
If you have something productive for me to do, please suggest it.
There are a small number of people who really need to communicate securely, and none of the tools today are good enough.
Anyway, cfd is already working.
If you have something productive for me to do, please suggest it.
AK
01:11
A K
let’s run a CFD market or a stablecoin?
01:11
i understand instructions are technically out there, but I have a feeling you can lead by example )
Z
01:11
Zack
Go ahead, I am here to support you if you want to run a market like that
01:12
Give me ssh access to a server even.
OK
01:12
O K
Not everyone that needs tools that will help them has the technical prowess to use a tool like pgp. I don't know why you have an aversion to working on UX, but it is important nonetheless to 'help people'
Z
01:12
Zack
I feel that it is not in our best interest for me to personally run a market like that at this time.
AK
01:13
A K
maybe you can record a screencast then?\
01:13
on launching a CFD market?
01:13
or prepare a chef/puppet/bash script to create one?
01:13
like, make smth plugnplay
01:14
i’m just thinking aloud here, maybe smarter ppl already understand how to create a simple BTC/USD market
MF
01:47
Mr Flintstone
a YouTube tutorial for how to launch a stablecoin market would be great I think Zack. I think you were talking about doing YouTube videos anyways some time back
01:47
Deleted Account
Should we just focus on getting some prediction and scalar markets running?
MF
01:48
Mr Flintstone
yeah for sure
01:48
Maybe a veousd one?
01:49
Deleted Account
good start
MF
01:51
Mr Flintstone
I was also thinking of a scalar market for difficulty
01:51
almost like a difficulty future
01:52
so miners can hedge production
01:52
it’s also completely objective in terms of reporting
AK
01:53
A K
market on ETH gas price?
01:54
would that be possible?
01:54
I think it doesn’t exist anywhere yet
MF
01:54
or, just the average gas cost in block X
AK
01:54
A K
avg or median maybe, yep
01:54
rather take values from blockchain more objective
01:54
BTC realized variance market
MF
01:55
Mr Flintstone
you could probably use the CMC historical data to do that objectively
01:55
or more objectively
AK
01:55
A K
for BTC? We have CME and CBOE futures
01:55
I think they’re the best price ref
MF
01:55
Mr Flintstone
oh we can use that too
01:58
I think the most popular CFD right now would probably be veousd as long as people want USD stability. I’m sure people are willing to go margin long on veo
AK
02:03
A K
Price ref though is a biatch
02:04
Veo already had discrepancy of qtrade amoveox and otc
02:04
Maybe if it references one exchange specifically
MF
02:04
Mr Flintstone
right. highest bid on qtrade is what I was thinking
02:04
BTC price can be CME daily close
AK
02:04
A K
VWAP over 1 day or week?
MF
02:05
Mr Flintstone
that would allow for more volume in the stablecoin markets at the cost of accuracy
02:05
maybe 1 day VWAP is ok
02:06
but qtrade logs would need to be open (which I bet they are thru API?)
Z
02:06
Zack
Should we make a tool for calculating the vwap?
MF
02:06
Mr Flintstone
VWAP can be gamed tho.
02:06
wash trading
Z
02:07
Zack
Maybe we should be unspecific and trust the network to make the call.
AK
02:07
A K
Better than one last quote
MF
02:07
Mr Flintstone
think so? Attempts to manipulate current market price makes them more accurate
Z
02:07
Zack
We can discuss together on telegram before doing oracle reports
02:09
the oracles are optimized to make the decision that most benefits the price of Veo.
MF
02:12
Mr Flintstone
it’s definitely easier to make a btcusd scalar market
02:12
since all we need is the CME close level
AK
MF
02:14
Mr Flintstone
veo probably needs more exchange activity before stablecoins become practical
Z
02:14
Zack
lots of people want to do some leveraged trades on bitcoin.
I wonder how many also want Veo risk.
I wonder how many also want Veo risk.
02:15
Maybe impractical stable coins will drive the exchange activity to the point where practical stable coins are possible
MF
02:15
Mr Flintstone
right
02:15
I was thinking about that. since everyone knows when the oracle time cutoff is for price
02:16
it might drive increased liquidity
Z
02:17
Zack
If a stable coin could get rid of any Veo risk within 5% accuracy margin, i think that would be useful.
02:17
Even if it isn't perfect
02:17
Imperfect and fair is good enough
MF
02:17
Mr Flintstone
if we can get the margin to 5% I think it would approach 0 soon after
02:18
we just need to get ball rolling
+
04:36
++
In reply to this message
I think it’s actually worse than that...mining is probably ordinary income realized at time you earned the token, not zero basis asset subject to capital gains at the time you sell the token. This means if you mined a token worth $100, token price falls to $10 come tax time, you have the unfortunate problem of owing $39 in tax (assuming 39% ordinary rate) on something you have not sold and don’t have proceeds from and worse, that has a selling price less than the tax liability.
AK
+
04:58
++
In reply to this message
Actually, the gift tax is imposed on the giver, not the receiver. I think the receiver would have an asset with zero basis that is subject to capital gains tax upon sale but not subject to tax prior to that.
05:01
In reply to this message
One view is they are dividends and so taxable as income upon receipt.
M
05:06
Mike
In reply to this message
Wouldn’t we pay tax on every bitcoin hardfork? Like BCH, SBTC, etc. there are countless
+
05:37
++
In reply to this message
Forks are murky. One view is that capital gains require a sale or exchange which doesn’t obviously exist in a fork, so, on this view, tokens received in a fork are ordinary income. An alternative view is that a fork is similar to an asset division which requires allocating basis between the two prongs of the forks. On this view, you don’t incur tax at the time of the fork but do incur capital gains tax at any point that you sell either token...the capital gains would be on the tokens sold based on the difference between the realized price and the historical basis. Sold for USD and “conversion” to another currency are both treated equivalently.
zzcrypto invited zzcrypto
z
05:51
zzcrypto
what is the algo?
05:52
single sha256 ?
Z
05:56
Zack
mining pow algorithm is single sha256 yes.
M
06:09
Mike
In reply to this message
The moment when you receive the fork it is worth nothing (notwithstanding IOU futures), so I don’t think I would consider ordinary income in that situation. I would say that it is sort of like a corporate spin-off but the original chain isn’t losing assets. Unless we want to count some sort of intellectual property or some shit.
A
06:09
Aries
06:10
Oh Yea
A
06:10
Aries via @gif
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
138.6 KB
OK
Z
06:10
Zack
In reply to this message
what if people trade futures before the fork happens? Then the market price of the fork would be non-zero.
M
06:11
Mike
And wouldn’t an asset division entail the original asset isn’t identical to the two split assets you later receive?
06:11
In reply to this message
I could make my own market with one trade and incur an incredible amount of tax burden on all airdrop participants
Z
06:42
Zack
we are at 39500. the hard update is now
06:51
it looks like all 19 nodes are still synced, and one more has been added.
It is kind of amazing that everyone updated.
There was only 2 days notice.
It is kind of amazing that everyone updated.
There was only 2 days notice.
MF
06:54
Mr Flintstone
no transactions yet
06:54
that’s prob why
Z
06:54
Zack
right, we need a tx fee to start the update.
Z
07:23
Zack
looks like 7 of the 20 nodes did not update.
Tv
09:24
Tarrence van As
I’m seeing
09:24
`block absorber died!
died!`
died!`
Z
09:25
did he give anyone an emergency number?
MF
09:25
Mr Flintstone
or miners should leave his pool
09:25
temporarily
DV
09:35
Denis Voskvitsov
AmoveoV8 right here :)
Z
09:35
Zack
im pretty sure Sy has less hashpower, so we should beat him soon
Tv
09:41
Tarrence van As
How come the [“block”, 5] external api returns a nonce like “79646461610518072659109617437964309067123006698496128575225650767479471385581” while [“header”, 5] returns a base64 encoded nonce like “sBZMvNy7P/8DsSfy+khBsZS+Ix6eGnhcINhk2MWIq+0=“?
MF
09:41
Mr Flintstone
his chain is a different coin now, not sure it makes sense to compare like that as a race
Z
09:43
Zack
Sy agreed to do the update, this is just a small accident
09:44
In reply to this message
I can confirm that those 2 things are the same thing expressed in different ways.
09:45
B = base64:encode(<<D:256>>).
where D is the decimal you shared, and B is the base64 encoded thing
where D is the decimal you shared, and B is the base64 encoded thing
Tv
09:45
Tarrence van As
What should be the canonical way to display a nonce?
Z
09:46
Zack
I don't know
Tv
09:47
Tarrence van As
Hmmm ok
Z
09:56
Zack
The fork is getting bigger, the bad side is 3 blocks ahead now.
Soon the difficulty is going to start dropping hard
Soon the difficulty is going to start dropping hard
OK
09:58
O K
Well, veopool people are welcome to mine on amoveopool until Sy wakes up
09:58
amoveopool is on the correct fork
M
10:03
Mike
Sy is 6 hours ahead of EST
10:03
So 4am for him rn
10:04
Last seen 4 hours ago, probably 2 or 3 more hours before he shows
Z
10:06
Zack
we are 4 blocks behind Sy, so if we had 10% more hashpower, it would only take 6 hours 40 minutes to catch up.
The light wallets wont work during these 7 hours
The light wallets wont work during these 7 hours
IP
10:06
I P
need to contact exchanges
DV
10:06
Denis Voskvitsov
already did.
Z
10:06
Zack
We are all depending on OK and amoveopool
OK
10:07
O K
The other pools are with us
10:07
How soon until the difficulty adjusts?
Z
IP
10:07
I P
how come Sy forgot to update
Z
10:07
Zack
In reply to this message
I think it already is. This block has been taking a while, eventually if it takes too long the difficulty starts lowering.
DV
10:08
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
looking at the chart https://amoveo.tools/ it will be soon
Z
10:08
Zack
In reply to this message
Maybe I wasn't communicating effectively.
I started contacting people to see who would agree to the update first before I pushed it to github.
I started contacting people to see who would agree to the update first before I pushed it to github.
10:09
In reply to this message
that chart is following Sy's branch, the good side should have a much lower EWAH already.
DV
10:09
Denis Voskvitsov
it's following my node which as we discussed is on the right chain
Z
10:09
Zack
Maybe Sy will wake up early to watch the new South Park
M
Z
10:11
Zack
Now we are only 2 blocks behind. It looks like we will catch up soon
IP
10:15
I P
well good time to update and restart my node i guess. does not matter that much though😂😂
Z
10:16
Zack
Now we are only 1 block behind Sy. we caught up so fast
10:22
Sy keeps paying out rewards even though he isn't getting paid. It looks like he lost over 6 Veo :(
DV
10:23
Denis Voskvitsov
is he losing actually? these txs must be on the wrong chain
Z
10:23
Zack
The most expensive sleep he has had in a while I bet
OK
10:23
O K
Another reason the peers should not talk
10:23
It would quarantine these bad tx to the bad chain
Z
10:24
Zack
that would make it so much easier to double-spend. if we didn't let txs flow between sides
OK
10:24
O K
What you're saying makes no sense
Z
10:24
Zack
I think there is a way to put a version number of a tx, and then it is only valid on a chain with the same version
OK
10:24
O K
The forks should have completely separate peers lists from the moment they started following different consensus rules
MF
OK
10:25
O K
No version number is needed
MF
10:25
Mr Flintstone
idk
Z
10:25
Zack
I think in the current situation, the txs are being replayed. the xdpool guy was saying this is the case. I can check now.
MF
10:25
Mr Flintstone
it makes sense if tx pools are being shared
OK
10:26
O K
It's hardly a 'replay' if the two chains share peers lists and mempools
10:26
lol
MF
10:26
Mr Flintstone
his miners are still getting paid. this is weird
10:26
lol
OK
10:26
O K
In reply to this message
The first block submitted to a node with bad consensus rules should ban that peer, until when I don't know
Z
10:27
Zack
I confirmed that the txs are currently being replayed on both sides
10:28
https://veoscan.io/account/BC80oG%252FEAXojuLCjIjQmIQgTv9wHscgCccEy4q7R2Vwak2iPbrTb1htgVOU%252BNjChxxmOeNiUJMxURPqUEWZ2lzc%253D
Sy's address can afford to pay out like 80 more block rewards before it runs out of money
Sy's address can afford to pay out like 80 more block rewards before it runs out of money
10:29
60*120 is like $7200 of loss
MF
10:29
Mr Flintstone
nash eq is 50/50 in this situation right
10:29
for the hash rate distribution across chains
10:29
to keep diff low
Z
10:30
Zack
oh, right
MF
10:30
Mr Flintstone
They are getting paid valuable coins no matter what
10:30
for some time
Z
10:31
Zack
yeah, I guess miners are incentivized to mine on whichever side has lower difficulty, at least until Sy runs out of Veo to pay out
MF
10:31
Mr Flintstone
hopefully sy wakes up soon
OK
10:31
O K
That's terrible
Z
10:32
Zack
We are all on 39515. The good side caught up with Sy's side. Soon light nodes will be working again.
OK
10:36
O K
This is the second or third time they have been at the same height
Z
10:36
Zack
now the good side is in the lead
IP
OK
10:37
O K
Wow
Z
10:37
Zack
I guess when we get 3 blocks ahead, I will make announcements that the light nodes are safe again
OK
10:37
O K
Maybe someone charitably switched over
IP
10:37
I P
will you refund him from dev reward?
MF
10:37
Mr Flintstone
lol
Z
10:38
Zack
Sy didn't have to leave 60 Veo on the mining pool node, and he did have 48 hours to update.
IP
10:40
I P
In reply to this message
and i had to short btc at 20k almost a year ago but did not do it so what now=)) no way to go back in time and fix that