Amoveo ♥🧿
13 October 2018
Z
08:03
Zack
you can make the fee higher in the config file, then people will have to pay more to put txs in your blocks
08:03
if you make the fee higher in the config file, then your mining pool will censor any tx with a lower fee
S
08:03
Sy
intersting..nobody edited it yet tho
OK
08:03
O K
In reply to this message
Nobody wants to see what it would break
S
08:03
Sy
a normal multi tx send by the node costs almost the same as single spends
08:04
lol it costs even more http://explorer.veopool.pw/?input=26919
08:05
so unless you do a raw transaction and overwrite values, its not cheaper, so stop saying that
08:05
Zack
08:06
and nobody here wants to edit node stuff, like OK said, we are happy when they are running
08:06
had to resync my main node today for no reason, just stopped working
08:07
but fun fact to, i can use make prod-restart on my backup node again and it attaches now, no idea why
08:07
looks like running it once in screen fixed it
OK
08:08
O K
In reply to this message
I think it works after one of the workaround style
Z
08:08
Zack
How are you calculating those amounts? I am looking at the block, but I don't see those numbers
S
08:09
Sy
the tx got one fee
08:09
you divide it by its entries
Z
08:09
Zack
oh, I see it now, thanks
S
08:10
Sy
Z
08:12
Zack
currently the default mining fee for a tx is 9 satoshis.
And by default the full node pays 1000 satoshis to the mining pool per tx.
08:12
I can lower the default fee paid to 10 satoshis
S
08:12
Sy
obviously not when every tx costs over 60k
08:12
according to those numbers it would be 1k
Z
08:13
Zack
the burn fee is set by the governance mechanism. That money is burned, it does not get paid to the miners.
S
08:13
Sy
it doesnt matter what happens to it
08:13
you said multi tx are cheaper, they arent
Z
08:13
Zack
for create_account the burn fee is a lot higher than for spend
08:14
txs made from the light node are cheaper, because they aren't paying 1000 satoshis like full nodes do by default.
S
08:14
Sy
multi_tx should have a higher intial fee and then very low fee for every entry
08:14
1000 satoshis are hardly an issue for a tx that costs 65k
Z
08:15
Zack
multi-tx takes less bytes in the block than multiple normal txs, but they take the same amount of time to process and they take up the same amount of consensus state.
So it seems like they should cost the same amount for the burn fee, but multi-tx should be less expensive for mining fee.
S
08:16
Sy
the mining fee is a joke to begin with
Z
08:16
Zack
you can set it to be higher if you want. you control most of the hashpower, so it is basically your choice.
S
08:16
Sy
so end of story, they arent cheaper veo wise
08:17
we have burned 65 veo so far in fees
Z
08:17
Zack
im lowering the default from 1000 satoshis to 10 satoshis
S
08:17
Sy
probably less i think i count the 1000 aswell, 60637 txs total
Z
08:17
Zack
so your mining pool will make even less profit
S
08:17
Sy
dude
OK
08:17
O K
🔥
08:18
🤣
Z
08:18
Zack
but this way the multi-tx wont be more expensive
S
08:18
Sy
if you really think ANY pool makes it profit out of shitty 1k satoshis you are SO mistaken... 😂
08:18
is that even 1ct?
Z
08:18
Zack
why don't you raise the tx fee?
S
08:18
Sy
this is not btc where tx fees are actually worth something
08:19
why should i?
08:19
but nice derailing of the topic
08:19
im off to bed
Z
08:20
Zack
then people would have an incentive to use multi-tx, so blocks would be smaller, and we could sync faster
S
08:20
Sy
"people" usually only do single spends, only pools do multiple in one block so nope, wrong again
Z
08:20
Zack
yeah, the pools would group payments, this would make blocks smaller
08:21
exchanges too
OK
08:21
O K
Adding a separate tx fee? sure
S
08:21
Sy
how much smaller?
Z
08:21
Zack
the tx fee is already there, it is set to 9 satoshis by default
OK
08:21
O K
In reply to this message
No one besides you is talking about this
S
08:22
Sy
2:21 am...good night
OK
08:22
O K
🌘🛏
Z
08:22
Zack
when you do a multi-tx, you save 65 bytes for each spend because you don't have to re-write your pubkey.
and you save like 100 bytes for each because you only do one signature.
OK
08:22
O K
I think it sounds nice having a smaller fee format for multitx, seems like since it costs less, it should cost less
Z
08:22
Zack
it makes the tx less than 1/2 as big I think
S
08:22
Sy
this is only relevant info if you tell us the total bytes of a tx aswell
08:23
65 and 100 bytes of like 10000 bytes are irrelevant, out of 1000 is more interesting
Z
08:24
Zack
If we zip the blocks before sending them, I bet the compression algorithm would be almost as efficient as switching to multi-tx.
S
08:24
Sy
since its all text, it would be much more efficient
Z
08:24
Zack
since it would find all the identical pubkeys
OK
08:27
O K
In reply to this message
we should start the first shareware blockchain
08:27
and call it rarchain
08:27
rar the blocks before we send them
08:27
we can have a cat as the logo
Z
08:27
Zack
here is a spend:
{signed,{spend,<<4,161,210,197,64,200,136,234,140,230,25,
                         120,90,246,127,89,137,211,200,68,184,214,
                         167,122,170,128,86,158,72,247,103,220,97,
                         70,234,18,178,203,216,49,138,1,104,34,30,
                         182,30,156,83,97,136,174,51,41,58,29,255,
                         35,225,248,122,60,200,128,15>>,
                       10,60707,
                       <<4,133,68,68,131,89,123,79,144,207,226,79,99,222,177,122,
                         108,196,19,151,157,68,144,7,202,211,134,75,165,144,153,
                         33,179,88,10,156,215,168,17,47,104,83,150,66,162,244,
                         144,18,45,151,174,241,66,110,24,204,141,65,31,4,194,19,
                         124,246,245>>,
                       100000000,0},
                <<48,68,2,32,66,25,134,23,100,128,234,232,159,94,5,229,
                  118,154,242,236,153,215,48,73,14,71,40,156,5,179,110,
                  127,231,116,175,152,2,32,2,171,85,116,157,99,171,53,8,
                  193,144,11,112,223,83,78,248,115,23,167,244,129,221,132,
                  68,101,136,35,36,138,34,60>>,
                []},

Here is a multi-spend:
{spend,0,0,0,
                                  <<4,192,39,188,50,126,203,216,20,218,54,61,251,113,157,
                                    119,230,55,195,119,152,211,69,117,4,127,185,199,246,55,
                                    15,253,73,131,98,56,170,207,185,34,77,214,179,93,91,66,
                                    128,244,147,214,254,56,97,83,167,94,88,57,230,255,126,
                                    148,2,129,12>>,
                                  10503537,0},

multi-spend is about 65 bytes.
spend is about 225 bytes. so it is something between 1/3rd and 1/4th as big.

N multi-spends is about (225 + 65*N) bytes
vs N spends is about (225 * N) bytes
OK
08:29
O K
Great, so make the burn fee (normal fee)+(1/3 * normal fee ea tx)
08:30
I'd use it then
Z
08:30
Zack
the burn fee covers the cost of time for processing the tx, and for consensus state space.
These costs are the same for multi-spend and regular spend. so the burn needs to be the same for both.
08:31
mining fee covers the cost of the bytes in a block, so the mining fee should be different for each.
OK
08:31
O K
Cool, I'll just stick with regular spend that works most of the time rather than trying something new and risky then
ŽM
08:31
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
Kindky ask for a license on every transaction
08:32
That's the business plan
OK
08:32
O K
;D
Z
08:33
Zack
Maybe we should use the governance mechanism to make the blocks smaller. If there was less space, then there would be less waste.
OK
08:34
O K
In reply to this message
I don't think the amoveo-cashers are gonna go for that
08:34
acash
Z
08:35
Zack
we are averaging at about 2 tx per block.
So we have more than 300x the capacity as we are using.
08:35
lowering this capacity would also make us more secure from spam attacks.
OK
08:35
O K
Nice, sounds like lowering it won't do anything at all
08:35
Since we have so much
Z
08:36
Zack
currently you need 1/2 gigabyte of hard drive to store all the blocks, but our capacity allows us to grow by about 144 megabytes a day
08:36
we could grow by 1 gigabyte per week if someone wanted to spam us.
OK
08:37
O K
Yeah don't worry, if transactions become expensive, I'll raise the fee
08:37
For the time being, I don't need to shoot myself in the foot
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
14:00
Sy
In reply to this message
👍
Deleted invited Deleted Account
IP
14:20
I P
the point Sy was making that if multi-tx saves a lot of space it should save a lot on fees
14:21
and that seems valid
S
14:35
Sy
The question is, what is more important? Block size or processing time, i understand zacks reasoning but it doesnt encourage to use multi tx at all
14:35
Its harder to track the payout aswell
14:36
Although you can assume if the txid is there they probably all happened....maybe xD
A
16:10
Aries
You guys should checkout Free State of Jones on Netflix, beautiful example of a Anarcho-capitalism.
warrior invited warrior
ES
21:04
Ed Sonic
Great movie
14 October 2018
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Z
01:02
Zack
Aeternity doesn't say anything about futarchy governance on their website or white paper.
But when they hire 3rd party advertisers, they frequently talk about "futarchy", betting style governance.
This seems like a scam so that they can trick investors into thinking futarchy is a goal.

It is also a scam how they use the word "oracle" to describe their trusted feeds.
You can do trusted feeds on bitcoin using 2 of 3 multisigs. It is a kind of escrow mechanism which is already in use on websites like bit rated.
Using the word "oracle" to describe this kind of mechanism is dishonest.
f
01:11
finex
they have their project, u have yours...
do you think your stuff "shines brighter" when u say they are scaming with the oracle or sth else?
maybe it's a better option for you to look on your code...

just an idea...
[
01:11
[Riki]
In reply to this message
Ae dev that you?
f
01:12
finex
no
Z
01:12
Zack
I think any communication between our communities will be very beneficial to amoveo.

I am trying to share tools with the community so that if they happen to talk to an ae investor, the conversion process is simple and easy.
01:20
Ae raised tens of millions of dollars by promising to build the futarchy blockchain I designed, but it was a bait and switch to scam the investors.

If we just show the investors what is happening, they will want to switch to amoveo. Because amoveo is the futarchy blockchain that they originally invested in.
S
01:56
Sy
i dont think its benefical at all you call everything a scam tbh...
01:56
some article called the oracles "sort of pos" i still wouldnt call it scam, its usually a mixture of fud, stupidness and missinformation
Z
01:56
Zack
I don't call gnosis or bitcoin hivemind or tendermint or ethereum scams.
S
01:57
Sy
you are pretty quick with the scam / liar lable
Z
01:57
Zack
Only because scams are common in cryptocurrency today
S
01:58
Sy
i think there arent many old users here who havent felt that aswell, me included
f
02:08
finex
In reply to this message
there are always 2 sides of a storry...
M
02:09
Mike
In reply to this message
Scams are the norm
02:09
AE is a scam imo
02:18
The devs’ intentions hardly matter if they’re unable to fulfill their promises to investors.
Ivan.G invited Ivan.G
Z
06:10
Zack
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSAXsgdvfiS9WqAxwjMm8aQ/live Paul Sztorc is live talking about truthcoin
Silver Hawak invited Silver Hawak
14:36
Deleted Account
I dont think Æ is a scam, their dev team is solid and they are making progress in github. Most people would accept a «trusted third party» to do the task of an oracle. Even though it is not safe, it might be good enough. I also didnt like their «pivot» into an ETH like coin, and in that sense I believe it is reasonable to say they fooled their investors. Still, Æ is far from dead imho
14:59
Deleted Account
Lol
AK
15:11
A K
"scam" is thrown around so often now... Every competitor is a "scam" apparently... Scam should have an clear intention to defraud. In that sense, I don't consider neither Augur nor AE to be scams. I don't think their teams ever got together and decided "yeah, let's steal the money of these loosers". Disclaimer: never owned any REP or Aeternity.
15:12
And yeah, calling them scams surely doesn't help veo much with PR/publicity, IMO.
IP
15:17
I P
ae is a bad projects with poor gipsy managements, stealing of investor funds by managers, failed roadmap and no working code
15:17
if it walks like a scam, quaks like a scam...
15:18
in the current state AE IS a fcuking SCAM
M
15:19
Mike
In reply to this message
I’d have to agree. Like, I’ll sell you a bridge, and when I can’t build it you’re left holding the bag because we sold the ETH for cash.
AK
15:20
A K
What's that gipsy reference again :( why do you need it
15:20
Projects fail even with best intentions
15:20
Veo might fail
15:20
Would you call it a scam also?
15:21
If yes, we have very different definitions
IP
15:22
I P
In reply to this message
because gipsies rule aeternity management
15:23
not the best people to be managers
AK
15:23
A K
🙈
15:23
If anything, most scam projects have Russian managers
15:23
Why do we need to involve race at all
IP
15:24
I P
its not race
its nation
15:24
its culture
15:25
In reply to this message
veo might fail sure BUT i got my veo through mining a working network
15:26
network is not perfect sure it can fail but at least there is a network, community, dev progress
AK
15:29
A K
I'm not saying I like AE, but you'll have to admit they have a bigger community and more developers and plenty commits
15:29
Sure VEO mainnet is running yet only 5 ppl can use it and sometimes even Zack makes mistakes using it
15:29
Compare to Augur , when launched it more or less worked from the start
15:30
Maybe same will be with AE, I don't follow closely
15:31
Ancap shouldn't consider an ICO a scam if all the conditions are clear...
15:31
I don't like that fundraising model BUT if it's voluntarily accepted... Be my guest
IP
15:36
I P
In reply to this message
Augur took like 4 or 5 years to launch in the current state
15:37
Augur had an ico and thus money
15:37
Zack has like what, locked veo funds😂
AK
15:37
A K
No doubt he raised less funds and that's why we are here
15:38
However any REP investor has a chance to check all the facts and make a decision
IP
15:38
I P
We need code audit for amoveo from erlang pros
15:38
In reply to this message
Zack did not raise any funds for veo
AK
15:38
A K
Not directly
15:39
But effectively we expect dev fee to be worth smth after march 2019
15:39
Just different fundraising structure
15:39
The one we - in this chat - prefer to an ICO obv
IP
15:40
I P
You do understand difference between dev fee from block reward of a working network vs raise ico funds in $ and make a network 4 years later?
IP
15:55
I P
In the first option if you fuck up your reward is worth nothing, in the second you are not really motivated to do anything at all, you already got the money
AK
16:18
A K
In reply to this message
.
IP
16:42
I P
Zack can we have shielded zksnarks txns in future?
AK
17:06
A K
+++
17:06
Would be awesome
17:07
Some kind of anonymity much needed
Z
20:23
Zack
I gave 2 solid reasons that I feel aeternity is being a scam lately. 1) they falsely advertise as if they enable futarchy style governance, but in reality they only develop voting style governance.
2) they falsely advertise as if they enable an Oracle, but in reality they only have trusted feeds, which is basically identical to escrow in bitcoin with 2 of 3 multisigs like bit rated.

I bring this up because I think that any communication between people in these projects will being more users to amoveo. I want to share with you the tools you need to easily convert users.
15 October 2018
Instinct invited Instinct
Stephen Kusu invited Stephen Kusu
Martin Vlašić invited Martin Vlašić
AS
06:22
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
It doesn't make them scammers because of that
A
07:01
Aries
Hey
07:01
So I was asked which projects are close to my heart for a Leonardo DiCaprio documentary on Blockchain
07:02
This is the sizzle reel https://youtu.be/-yZUJRh4xLQ
07:02
What do you say Zack
07:02
Are you up for it
Z
07:05
Zack
Is he going to go inside my dreams to learn about Amoveo?
A
07:05
Aries
Yes
07:05
Decentralizedception
07:06
But we should talk to Jon asap
07:07
Idk if this will be for Netflix or HBO
07:08
Since both have shown immense interest
07:12
this combined with the podcast would be huge
07:12
for Amoveo
Z
07:18
Zack
Jae Kwon is in the video
IP
07:23
I P
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
👍, 39.1 KB
Z
07:32
Zack
I think dicaprio is the Wolf on Wallstreet
07:33
When I think of myself as an animal, it isn't a wolf. I don't want to be the blockchain wolf.
OK
07:33
O K
What animal do you think of yourself as?
Z
07:34
Zack
the bull that jumped over the moon.
OK
07:35
O K
Impressive
Z
07:35
Zack
Maybe we should use futarchy to find out who would be the ideal representative of the Amoveo community.
MF
07:35
Mr Flintstone
I think it is obvious enough right now lol
A
07:36
Aries
you
07:36
you are el Jefe
07:36
el Patron
OK
07:36
O K
I second the moon bull
Z
07:37
Zack
I know a lot about myself, I could make some big bets in this market
Z
09:30
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/basiccoin/tree/master/erlang_October_2018

I finished extracting the core of Amoveo into this new repository, to make it easy for people to use what we learned in Amoveo to launch new blockchains.

It looks like the mining pool is not paying the governance fees for txs. We will need to do a hard update to fix this bug in Amoveo.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
A
10:07
Aries
much oppertunity tonight
10:07
to make predictions
10:07
example
10:10
What will be the price of Oil by the end of the week?
Mazuma X invited Mazuma X
T
12:01
Topab
ETH SF Prediction market https://devpost.com/software/airprediction
Z
13:36
Zack
if order matching isn't decentralized, then I wonder why they use a blockchain for this.
Chainlink is not a secure oracle.
14:28
Deleted Account
I want a role as an extra!!!!
14:28
hehe
Deleted invited Deleted Account
A
14:52
Aries
Hmmm is tether collapsing
14:55
Btc at 7k
14:55
Tether At
Black invited Black
A
15:00
Aries
How come no one made a prediction on this 😡🤬
T
15:06
Topab
In reply to this message
Not sure but believe celer will be decentralized
18:32
Deleted Account
It may be decentralisation at the beginning but at the end leaving the one with ability to stay in the market
S
21:08
Sebsebzen
Wow Zack please go on that show with Leo
S
23:20
Sy
In reply to this message
Where?
S
23:23
Sebsebzen
just scroll up a bit :)
Z
23:24
Zack
I'm thinking of having an android app made to be a light node of amoveo.
Would anyone be interested in this?
MF
23:43
Mr Flintstone
I think our friends at exan tech are working on something similar?
Z
23:50
Zack
I think our first few times using dominant assurance contracts, we should just reuse the binary market contract, and censor certain trades.
MF
23:51
Mr Flintstone
what needs to be censored
23:52
you mean like only the host of the market can bet in a certain direction?
Z
23:53
Zack
we want the builder to take the bets in their direction. If speculators took the same position as the builder, it would make the entire contract less effective.
16 October 2018
DV
00:41
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
we do indeed
Z
00:44
Zack
You should do a dominant assurance contract
Williwi Tim joined group by link from Group
AK
01:48
A K
BTW, has there been any high profile campaign with a DAC already?
01:56
could be a good PR piece for amoveo if it's worlds first
Bitmass invited Bitmass
Z
06:23
Zack
Maybe we need to have a debate tournament followed by a Futarchy market to decide who should be the face of Amoveo in videos. Who can best act as a representative of our community.
wind z invited wind z
Spike Spiegel invited Spike Spiegel
SS
09:44
Spike Spiegel
Is ASIC development desired?
MF
09:45
Mr Flintstone
yeah
SS
09:47
Spike Spiegel
Actually it seems like great application for funding futures
MF
09:50
Mr Flintstone
what do you mean
Z
10:09
Zack
yes, but we should start with smaller things
Deleted invited Deleted Account
14:12
Deleted Account
Will Tezos be a competitor for Amoveo? They have on chain governance and functional programming contracts
Дмитрий В joined group by link from Group
S
18:44
Sy
In reply to this message
just dont reward it with attention 😝
Z
19:46
Zack
tezos uses voting to update the software.
Voting is not cryptographically secure.
Tezos does not work.
S
20:14
Sy
because its not secure it doesnt work?
Z
20:15
Zack
yes. you can bribe people to vote for you to become dictator of Tezos for example.
20:16
you could even do a P+epsilon type bribe attack, so you could become dictator without having to pay any bribes.
SS
22:10
Spike Spiegel
My 2c: there is for example MakerDAO and Dharma protocol - both allow you to take collaterised loans (but Maker accept only ETH as collateral) - so they both work in theory but in practice Maker has $15M monthly volume and Dharma only $3k
22:11
conclusion: making stuff very easy to use and highlighting one major use case can increase volume of protocol usage
T
22:15
Topab
+1
Z
22:37
Zack
debt on a blockchain does not work in theory or practice.
There is no cryptoeconomic way to punish someone for failing to pay their debt.
22:39
I am not interested in using advertising or speculation to build up a big user base.
I only want to succeed by building something useful.

If you want to use other strategies to make Amoveo succeed, go ahead.
AK
22:39
A K
In reply to this message
securitized debt works, like in MakerDAO
Z
22:41
Zack
I have no idea what that is.
I do know that debt on the blockchain is not enforceable.
Some people try to use reputation, but non-spendible reputation has bad side effects.
It make retirement attacks profitable.
AK
22:42
A K
sry, should have said "collateralized"
22:42
you lock ETH in a smart contract and receive 25-30% value in Dai
22:42
(which should follow USD)
22:43
if ETH/USD declines, you get margin called and loose ETH
Z
22:43
Zack
For a contract to be enforceable, all the money at stake needs to be locked inside the contract.
This basic limitation of smart contracts makes them useless for debt.
AK
22:44
A K
it is locked yep
22:44
but if you're saying keeping an ETH as investment for 10 years, Dai allows you to get %% of ETH value as debt
22:44
on a blockchain )
Z
22:46
Zack
Financial derivatives are the optimal way to trade risk.
AK
22:46
A K
but you're not trading risk, you're still fully exposed to ETH price.
22:46
and you're also getting some Dai which you can trade for smth, goods services crypto
Z
22:46
Zack
If you want to get more or less eth exposure, you should use some leveraged financial derivative.
Anything else will be less efficient, it will cost more and pay you less.
AK
22:47
A K
you're keeping 100% ETH exposure
22:47
at all times
22:47
you use ETH as a collateral against Dai
22:47
Dai ~= USD basically
Z
22:49
Zack
If one person is buying a stable-coin in ethereum, then someone else must be buying their ether-risk.
Trading risk is most efficient with a market for financial derivatives.
Trying to re-invent financial derivatives by inserting a mini-ico inside every market is a terrible idea.
I understand people are crazy for icos today, but that is no excuse to build something that is so much less efficient than existing alternatives.
AK
22:50
A K
yep, but ETH risk is well overcollateralized
22:50
practically 3x-4x
22:50
so unles ETH jumps to 25-50 USD, no risk
22:50
it will be liquidated before default
Z
22:50
Zack
The total amount of eth risk is always conserved. you can't destroy risk, you can only sell it to someone else.
AK
22:51
A K
You're keeping ETH risk when you put it as collateral
22:51
it's like a mortgage in a bank
22:51
you keep the house price risk, yet the bank also cares about the prices
Z
22:52
Zack
a mortgage is a type of financial derivative which is secured by real estate.
I agree, maker-dao is trying to create an alternative for financial derivatives.
RL
22:54
R L
Is VEO being traded anywhere?
Z
22:54
Zack
A normal market for financial derivatives, where trades are matched in single-price batches. That would be the optimal way to trade risk.
AK
22:54
A K
qtrade.io amoveo.exchange
Z
22:54
Zack
Like how we do it on Amoveo
RL
22:54
R L
In reply to this message
thanks!
17 October 2018
00:38
Deleted Account
i’d have to agree with zack that debt on the blockchain could never work
AK
00:48
A K
Dai works already or you mean it has drawbacks or you don’t consider it debt?
MF
00:51
Mr Flintstone
I don’t think the maker system is debt based
00:52
I would consider any system with credit risk not suitable for blockchains which I think is what zack means by debt is not enforceable
SS
00:57
Spike Spiegel
You sound like Stallman - makerdao has large volumes and soon it will be in top 20 projects - and dai is 100% legit
00:58
And yes - dai requires some other token to maintain the value in some range - makerdao system may even work with ethereum price falling (slowly)
00:59
If you have over 150% collateral the created dai is legit
Z
01:00
Zack
different people want to have different margins on their financial derivative contracts.
It depends on how long they plan to hold the contract for, for example.
SS
01:04
Spike Spiegel
It's not practical to replace all instruments by derivatives
Z
01:05
Zack
When it comes to trading risk, derivatives are the best tool available.
SS
01:08
Spike Spiegel
Yes - you can create different financial products but if they aren't selling on the market (low trade volume) it means that market decided to use different things
01:10
For example one can believe that centralised prediction markets may work - due to high liquidity and low fees.

Decentralised networks require large amount of capital to bootstrap liquidity so it's more profitable to use X than Y
MF
01:16
Mr Flintstone
the maker system for dai is one big derivative
AK
01:21
A K
In reply to this message
well by issuing Dai you’re promising to exchange it to ETH at the ETH/USD rate so I’d say it’s an IOU / debt
MF
01:24
Mr Flintstone
there is no promise
SS
01:24
Spike Spiegel
yes, it's derivative - I mean it's cool to say that something is better than other thing but I would be rather focused on increasing the total volume locked in contracts
MF
01:24
Mr Flintstone
there is a right to redeem from a collateral pool
SS
01:25
Spike Spiegel
Total veo in channels / oracles ->
MF
01:25
Mr Flintstone
yeah agreed
SS
01:27
Spike Spiegel
IHMO something like electrum wallet would be great for Amoveo
01:28
Whole architecture isn't exactly clear to me - do I have to run node constantly to participate in markets?
Z
01:29
Zack
The light node is for markets.
Full nodes currently cannot participate, they can only host.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
SS
01:30
Spike Spiegel
So to bet on need to have constant connection?
AK
01:30
A K
In reply to this message
Ok right or promise, but why isn't it debt?
Z
01:31
Zack
No. You just have to come online once a week, or however long you set the interval to.
01:32
In reply to this message
Debt isn't collateralized.
Maker dao is collateralized like 3x. The margins are wide.
So maker dao is a derivative, not debt.
AK
01:34
A K
In reply to this message
There's plenty collateralized debt...
01:36
Mortgages, car loans, corp borrowing with a collateral (doh)
Z
01:36
Zack
Right, plenty of people use english differently from me. I am explaining what I mean by debt, so you know what I mean when I say "blockchains can't enforce debt". Mr flintstone probably explained better.
SS
01:36
Spike Spiegel
So mortgage isn't debt?
Z
01:37
Zack
A blockchain can't enforce a mortgage because a blockchain can't control real estate.
SS
01:37
Spike Spiegel
BTW what about creating something like for stuff like this - https://ethresear.ch/ because explaining same concepts again and again isn't most efficient way to spend time IHMO
AK
01:37
A K
In reply to this message
Ok, so if you're saying "Blockhain can't enforce uncollateralized debt" than ofc I agree
SS
01:39
Spike Spiegel
blockchains cannot enforce exogenous property rights if you want to sound smart
MF
01:45
Mr Flintstone
blockchains cannot enforce credit agreements
01:45
this is simple
01:46
Or more simple I guess
SS
01:48
Spike Spiegel
nope, since you can have credit on-blockchain (enforcement of repayment of asset X by asset Y )
01:49
This discussion evaporates after properly defining debt / derivative
MF
02:15
Mr Flintstone
the only way to enforce repayment of asset x with asset y is to control asset y the entire time. so it is a fully funded debt position which is kind of pointless. if y is not controlled the entire time, there is performance risk of the debt, which is credit. the blockchain cannot enforce that which it does not control
02:17
I think this is all just semantic disagreement
02:18
I think we all get the point that the blockchain cannot control assets that are not pledged to be controlled by it
03:34
Deleted Account
Actually if x% lenders are paying back on average, someone could cover those costs for a fee, like an insurance. But this could only work if a loan was tied to real identities. Any anonymous lenders would mostly not repay
SS
03:47
Spike Spiegel
Can we move this discussion to forum?
03:48
Because I think it would be useful to point it out for future reference
03:48
or github txt file
MF
03:55
Mr Flintstone
yeah, I think Demi’s idea to move some discussion to reddit is a good idea
M
03:55
Mike
I would prefer reddit over BTCtalk so we can have different threads
MF
03:55
Mr Flintstone
telegram is just too convenient lol
03:55
reddit has great engagement too
AK
03:56
A K
Reddit or own Discourse install
M
03:56
Mike
If you check telegram everyday you’re fine but it takes a bit of time. Reddit would make it easier to have drawn out discussion
AK
03:56
A K
No btctalk pleease )
MF
03:56
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
yeah definitely
03:56
plus we can link previous conversations
AK
03:56
A K
Like, hypertext!
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
08:38
Topab
I support the idea of something like https://ethresear.ch/
Z
09:42
Zack
Use the Amoveo Reddit page.
We already have enough social media, we don't need to make forums.
Blocbits invited Blocbits
B
16:08
Blocbits
how much hash does a 1080ti give on amoveo?
S
16:25
Sy
around 4.4 gh
Bud invited Bud
B
18:01
Bud
Is the Amoveo Light Wallet the only available option as of right now?
AK
18:02
A K
full node also works
B
18:04
Bud
how often would the fullnode needed to be updated?
AK
18:05
A K
code? Zack pushes quite often sometimes, without much warnings )
B
18:06
Bud
well I guess the light wallet is the more comfortable option in this case
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
18:32
Sy
it is either way...
18:33
the updates rarely break the node but there is no reason to run one if you just want to send and receive
18:33
the lightnode is a bit overwhelming but actually quite easy to use
B
19:34
Bud
Okay, thank you for the provided information, much appreciated
Z
19:59
Zack
If you are using a brain wallet from the light node, I recommend that you take your money out into a non-brain wallet.
A bug was found with the brain wallet so that it isn't secure.
20:00
right
S
20:11
Sy
yeah, its like back in the btc days
20:11
before you just got 12+ random words you could pick any word so at some points ppl started running wordlists and check for balances, god, sex etc were actually used and all money was taken
AK
20:11
A K
so I shouldn't have used "correct horse battery staple" ?
Z
20:12
Zack
haha, no one used "correct horse battery staple"
22:34
Deleted Account
Could you explain what a brain wallet is?
S
22:34
Sy
you generate your wallet vs a passphrase
22:35
so instead of using the key you can use your passphrase
22:35
we are at "DO NOT USE BRAINWALLETS [GENERATED BY HUMANS]." right now xD
22:35
Deleted Account
This is a good time to try veoanity folks. https://github.com/tallakt/veoanity
AK
22:36
A K
wow
22:36
Deleted Account
hehe. managed to squeeze in an ad there
AK
22:37
A K
why only 10 CPU though, if it's Erlang?
22:37
should scale to all available?
VR invited VR
Z
23:08
Zack
The veo is gone.
Looks like one address confiscated from 5 of the pubkeys.
23:08
I guess I should have just taken all the veo and burned it
OK
23:08
O K
In reply to this message
You should not do this
23:09
It's not yours to burn
23:10
you would prefer giving away 50 veo to whoever has the tech skills to find the bug, and the moral code to take it? @potat_o
It kind of reminds me of the trolley problem.
OK
23:10
O K
Well, except it's not your trolley, and you're not on the tracks
23:11
You have to give people the chance to wake up and stand up
Z
23:11
Zack
well, 150 veo is only like 1 day of production, so it isn't really a big deal for the network.
It is a big deal to whoever lost those tokens though.
OK
23:12
O K
At the very least the funds could be used to pay for a code audit
MF
23:12
Mr Flintstone
Let’s change the pinned message Zack
23:13
I know some people legit moved their veo
DV
23:13
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
that's what I think is a good option. establish a fund and use it as dev or audit rewards.
Z
23:14
Zack
If you used a brain wallet to generate your amoveo address, then you need to make a new non-brain wallet address and move all your funds.
The brain wallet algorithm has a bug, and will be replaced soon, so all the old brain wallet addresses will stop working.

you can learn more about amoveo here: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
23:15
In reply to this message
hopefully it was the person with 100
Mr Flintstone pinned this message
R
23:21
Ramzi
What means brain wallet ? I have already create my adress on light node mentionned in github : is this included ?
Z
23:21
Zack
do you type some memorized words into the light wallet to generate your address?
23:22
or do you load your private key from a file saved on your computer?
MF
23:23
Mr Flintstone
or, did you input your own entropy into the key generation process after hitting “generate new keys”
23:23
In reply to this message
this is also vulnerable
R
23:23
Ramzi
No , i have just saved the private key
Z
23:23
Zack
then you are fine. this bug isn't a problem for you.
MF
23:23
Mr Flintstone
as long as you never hit “generate new keys “ you are ok
R
23:24
Ramzi
Ok ty
Я
23:34
Ярослав
In reply to this message
Ty !
18 October 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
00:37
Sy
00:37
if you didnt do that, you are save
Zack pinned this message
Zack pinned this message
DV
00:39
Denis Voskvitsov
looks like tutorial without a context :)
J
00:51
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
In reply to this message
thank you 🙏🏻
Z
01:34
Zack
on google trends, it seems like Australia is the country where Amoveo is most popular.
MF
01:36
Mr Flintstone
would make sense
01:36
there are firms named amoveo in that part of the world
01:36
just google amoveo Australia
Z
01:36
Zack
I guess Amoveo isn't impacting google trends yet.
MF
01:36
Mr Flintstone
it does look like there is a big spike recently
01:37
And it did peak at the end of may, which was the peak of the veo price I think
01:37
this is amoveo searches in the United States
Z
01:38
Zack
yes, they do line up
01:42
based on movements of veo, it looks like the 100 veo were stolen too.
01:42
I guess my plan was a failure. I should have confiscated the veo and then either burned them or used them for something useful to the network.
OK
02:19
O K
You should not have burned anything, it wasn't yours to burn
02:19
It's a good thing you didn't, imo
AK
02:21
A K
exchanges shouldv’e taken action
S
02:21
Sy
everything to BJOm9/YpABxudZ0nQmx8AmqK96TtQI7eKFrt7ZySu9x1nV80+WNtwvCnA+QduQFqxFk8pnHJtEZXclU4zERrI84= is going to qtrade
AK
02:21
A K
without exchanges and OTC stealing is useless
S
02:21
Sy
yeah and you track that how?
AK
02:22
A K
track exchanges? well they track mtgox stolen funds pretty OK
02:22
in veo it should be even easier
S
02:22
Sy
what if the rightfull owner is moving the funds? or if you hop through 3 different addresses first? how do you think exchanges would take action
02:22
moving funds != stolen
02:22
there is a big difference
AK
02:22
A K
3 addresses not an issue, rightfull owner well yes
S
02:23
Sy
and there is no mechanism in place for something like this, you expect them to whip something up in 5h and block trades on that code? no thanks
AK
02:23
A K
mm all bigger exchanges have it
02:24
just shows where veo is )
02:24
ofc they’re not obliged to me or anyone
OK
02:24
O K
I don't think anything has been reported stolen yet
S
02:24
Sy
you basicly answered yourself
02:24
everything in veo is new and has to be coded
AK
02:25
A K
yep, i was replying to Zack mostly, I too think burning is no good, came with the only possible action to alleviate the issue (exchanges doing smth)
02:25
but in 5 hrs.. yeah.
M
02:26
Mike
Who threw up the large buy order on qtrade?
S
02:26
Sy
i know who put up the 014
02:26
dunno about the other one
M
02:26
Mike
Damn the 014 got crushed
S
02:27
Sy
yep
AK
02:27
A K
crushed = ?
S
02:27
Sy
someone here owning the 2 new blockfinder addresses? message me 😎
OK
02:27
O K
In reply to this message
decimated
AK
02:28
A K
someone bought at 0.14 ?
MF
02:28
Mr Flintstone
the 82 veo is from the account that zack thinks was stealing veo
02:28
82.22 or so
02:29
this just hit the qtrade books
AK
02:29
A K
and 0.13 eaten up a bit too
S
02:29
Sy
yeah
MF
02:29
Mr Flintstone
yes, that is the 82 I am talking about
S
02:29
Sy
this one seems to be the forwarding address to qtrade
MF
02:29
Mr Flintstone
right
02:31
lol 1.7k veo in the qtrade account?
02:32
Oh, 80 not 82
AK
02:32
A K
we do need smth like RingCT in veo )
Z
02:46
Zack
They might just be using qtrade.io to mix the Veo so we can't do a hard fork to get the Veo back
OK
02:46
O K
"get the veo back" ?
Z
02:47
Zack
To delete it or make a prize or whatever
02:47
Whoever has it doesn't want a hard fork to erase it
AK
02:59
A K
we shouldn’t hard fork over stolen funds
M
02:59
Mike
In reply to this message
Why?
02:59
Not in this instance but if qtrade was hacked we’d have to fork
AK
03:09
A K
breaks the idea of blockchain basically
S
03:09
Sy
yeah shit happens, they are gone
03:09
welcome to crypto
AK
03:09
A K
yep
M
03:10
Mike
In reply to this message
Not at all.
S
03:11
Sy
some are sold already, they probably withdrawn the btc too, nothing you can revert without major collateral
S
04:56
Sy
04:56
😢
MF
05:01
Mr Flintstone
wow
Z
05:01
Zack
Veo pool hashpower below 50% !!!!
S
05:01
Sy
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😲, 38.2 KB
MF
05:01
Mr Flintstone
inb4 sy lowers fee and is back to 70%
S
05:02
Sy
ah true i can lower now 😝
ŽM
05:04
Živojin Mirić
beware of batman!!
S
05:04
Sy
pool fee lowered by 1%! 😎
05:04
im keeping the 0.5% veoscan donation up for now
05:06
xdpool is really strong, i dont know why they keep turning on and off tbh
Z
05:08
Zack
Maybe they switch based on the profitability of mining Veo vs some altcoin.
ŽM
05:08
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
I think that's it
05:08
probably some big farm
M
05:10
Mike
Lol I wonder if VEO will ever be under .01 BTC again
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Blasco | I will never PM you first! | 🤖 invited Blasco | I will never PM you first! | 🤖
S
14:28
Sy
14:28
that was quick...
J
14:31
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
w00t 👀
14:31
FFS not again chinese farm
AK
14:57
A K
In reply to this message
https://amoveo.tools shows no diff spike though
S
15:07
Sy
no, i lost about 50% of my hashrate and we had a huge diff drop
15:07
it returned to normal
B
15:29
Ben
finaly competition ;)
15:29
you greedy bastard :P
AK
15:29
A K
Sooo someone switched to XD or just left veopool?
B
15:29
Ben
switched it looks like
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
16:50
Sy
i dont think so
16:51
he has still 7 TH running on my pool, he told me he switched partly back to ETH and some x16 test
16:51
but who knows...
Tc
17:29
THE KING cavalc
When moon when binance when 1000$ ?
Tc
18:02
THE KING cavalc
yep absolutely, all debt XD
C
19:47
Cryptokido
19:47
Who broke it?
[
20:00
[Riki]
In reply to this message
@demiculus the man will know
19 October 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Mikhail Khaerdinov invited Mikhail Khaerdinov
MF
04:53
Mr Flintstone
Zack
Z
04:53
Zack
hi
Tv
04:59
Tarrence van As
Such a great opportunity
MF
04:59
Mr Flintstone
Zack are you interested in doing this documentary? your involvement would be as far as I understand just interviews. I will literally handle everything else like tech questions
05:00
so you do not need to focus too much on this
05:01
this seems like an extremely effective use of your time with respect to amoveo being successful
Tv
05:01
Tarrence van As
Someone should open an oracle and bet big on “no he won’t”
Z
05:02
Zack
He played the "wolf on wallstreet" right?
Wasn't that a movie about the finance system being evil?
MF
05:02
Mr Flintstone
he is an actor and has played many roles both good and evil
Z
05:03
Zack
if this is going to be a movie about how cryptocurrency is bad, then I don't want to be involved
MF
05:03
Mr Flintstone
it is a few episodes about how cryptocurrency is great
05:03
watch the YouTube reel Zack
M
05:03
Mike
Idk I’d like to see someone attacking crypto to find flaws in Amoveo.
05:04
Amoveo is easily one of the best projects
M
05:04
Mike
It sounds gimmicky but if DiCaprio is actually doing it, it’ll have reach.
MF
05:05
Mr Flintstone
watch the reel; production quality is very high and is in line with commercial documentaries
Z
05:05
Zack
Trying to find flaws in tech is great. But what if this is a honey pot to attract victims for a witch hunt?
05:07
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Good one
A
05:07
Aries
Now I’m educating executive producers
05:08
And Amoveo is on the top of my list
M⛏
05:08
Moe ⛏
Would be great for VEO imho. You want to get the word out. This is a great opportunity
05:09
In reply to this message
Quite the opposite
A
05:09
Aries
In reply to this message
It’s a 6 hour series
G
05:12
Gregory
Zack u need a bizdev and pr guy on board. Marion would do everything to persuade u participate in the series)
Алексей Колосов invited Алексей Колосов
MF
05:18
Mr Flintstone
I do not understand the point of working so fucking hard on this project so it can be successful but not taking the low hanging fruit of doing a few interviews for a Hollywood documentary on blockchains
G
05:19
Gregory
He is just too shy and modest
05:19
Most of talented people are sociopaths
MF
05:19
Mr Flintstone
do we need to do a combinatorial market to prove that zack in the documentary will be good for amoveo price? Zack
05:20
because I will bet all my fucking veo
Z
05:20
Zack
It would be very difficult for me to get out of something if futarchy says it will help the price
J
05:20
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈 via @gif
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
45.8 KB
MF
05:20
Mr Flintstone
k fine. I’ll deploy the oracle tonight. this is retarded
OK
05:24
O K
Are you anxious in interview settings Zack?
05:24
We can get you some beta blockers, or do practice interviews with you
05:26
Deleted Account
be careful with beta blockers. they may be dangerous if a person uses stims like adderal
OK
05:26
O K
Good point victor
05:27
No matter what you should of course do your research wrt contraindications
05:27
Deleted Account
benzos like are more universal anxiolylic tool
OK
05:27
O K
Benzos are dangerous in combination with stims as well
05:27
And also highly physically addictive
05:30
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
afaik standard instruction in stim overdose cure is to give benzos
05:31
no matter which particular stim was used if it acts upon norepinephrine or/and dopamine
05:39
btw please tell me what was so bad in interview?
05:39
maybe it's really dangerous for marketing
05:39
of veo
G
05:44
Gregory
In reply to this message
There are people who good at erlang and merkel trees and there are ppl who are good at interviews. They barely intersect
MF
05:46
Mr Flintstone
zack is a top 5 interview in the entire crypto space imo
05:46
part of what convinced me of this project was his interviews
Tv
05:47
Tarrence van As
We will create the futarchy market then Zach can say in the interview “I really didn’t want to do this but the blockchain made me do it”
G
05:47
Gregory
I think sergey brin is similar to Zacks type or jan koum
J
05:48
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
In reply to this message
👆
OK
05:49
O K
In reply to this message
I guess that's pretty funny
MF
05:49
Mr Flintstone
Zack for the oracle to determine if you have done the interview, are you ok with it being 2/3 of me, @potat_o and @Simon3456 to say it happened?
[
05:50
[Riki]
Animation
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74.2 KB
G
05:50
Gregory
In reply to this message
Nothing funny. Its a psychological case not a mathematical one
MF
05:50
Mr Flintstone
I literally cannot believe we have to do this, but whatever. should have known better lol
Z
05:50
Zack
How would any of you know if I showed up to an interview?
Group video chat?
OK
05:50
O K
Zack needs a bunch of one liners planned in advance, that start with "Maybe..." and are followed by slightly shocking but mostly true things about prediction marlets
05:50
Have you ever seen an interview ...
MF
05:50
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
Jon sends a clip to us
G
05:50
Gregory
In reply to this message
Series will show off ur face?)
OK
05:50
O K
In reply to this message
He should wiggle his eyebrows directly at the camera after each time
B
05:51
Blasco | I will never PM you first! | 🤖
Is there any calc for see how much can earn with my gpus?
[
05:51
[Riki]
who is organising the mannecure and pedicure ?
MF
05:51
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
Jon being a producer
OK
05:51
O K
In reply to this message
You called this one riki
[
05:51
[Riki]
say no more
MF
05:52
Mr Flintstone
maybe we can just share a clip of zacks interview in this telegram chat, then we don’t need me ok and sy to report. Zack
OK
05:52
O K
I don't understand what I'm reporting on but I yield to flinstone's judgment
TG
05:52
Toby Ganger
Aries let me know if you need a Blockchain song! “Welcome To The Blockchain” should make it into one of these docs
[
05:52
[Riki]
you guys can be voting delegates
05:52
dFutarchy
OK
05:53
O K
In reply to this message
New song! 👏 New song! 👏 New song! 👏
Z
05:53
Zack
In reply to this message
That sounds like it would work
TG
05:53
Toby Ganger
haha….not a new song…just the same one
MF
05:53
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
Great. This is what we’re gonna do then
OK
05:54
O K
In reply to this message
What rhymes with "dominant assurance contracts"
Z
05:54
Zack
Cataracts
MF
05:54
Mr Flintstone
lol
OK
05:54
O K
In reply to this message
And "Zack did the interview because the prediction market told him to"
05:55
This is hip hop gold
05:55
Deleted Account
>makes bets inside bitcoin lightning network channels, according to Hess
05:55
an example of bad words
Z
05:55
Zack
Amoveo doesn't use bitcoin
05:56
Deleted Account
yes
[
05:56
[Riki]
pls no offtopic
A
05:56
Aries
In reply to this message
I fwded it to the producer
05:56
Deleted Account
therefore why such words are used to describe veo?
[
05:56
[Riki]
we r talkin holywood here
TG
05:56
Toby Ganger
haha
A
05:57
Aries
Easy and painless
05:57
Deleted Account
why not to say "bitcoin-like channels"?
05:58
Amoveo, described as "an improved version of Augur that costs less to use and doesn't have any REP token," connects markets to an on-chain oracle mechanism and makes bets inside bitcoin lightning network channels, according to Hess
Z
05:59
Zack
I didn't write that.
But it sounds more accurate than typical crypto news
05:59
Channels and the lack of rep are the biggest 2 differences between us and augur.
Tv
06:00
Tarrence van As
Anyone have experience running a fullnode on AWS EC2? Getting this error: talk_helper failed_connect 1. will ignore this peer.
06:00
I’ve opened port 8080
OK
06:00
O K
In reply to this message
You're good, normal output
Tv
06:00
Tarrence van As
Doesn’t seem to be syncing tho
06:01
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
if someone would think that bitcoin channels are used - it would mean that veo uses bitcoin network just like augur uses eth
06:02
therefore one of the biggest difference is lost
Z
06:02
Zack
We don't use bitcoin in amoveo.
06:02
Deleted Account
yes
06:02
but some ppl can think so
Z
06:03
Zack
Yes, it is a mistake in the article
OK
06:04
O K
In reply to this message
Lightning has been rewritten for amoveo, it doesn't use BTC lightning network
06:04
Deleted Account
i understand
Z
06:21
Zack
In reply to this message
I think Veo pool has one.
B
06:21
Blasco | I will never PM you first! | 🤖
In reply to this message
Thanks!
Z
06:22
Zack
Maybe we don't need democracy any more, because prediction markets will make the rules.
06:23
Maybe bosses can't tell us what to do, because prediction markets know what is best.
OK
06:23
O K
These are excellent examples, wiggle eyebrows?
Z
06:24
Zack
Maybe politicians can't lie, because prediction markets will reveal the truth.
Eyebrow movement
OK
06:24
O K
:D
06:24
😂
06:25
You can say these things if you're ever caught off guard by a question and change the subject
06:25
The rhetoricians on the news channels use this strategy a lot
06:25
Maybe we don't need the news anymore, since prediction markets will tell us what's going on in the world
G
06:26
Gonzalo
In reply to this message
👆
Z
06:26
Zack
>So Zack, how does Nakamoto consensus work?

Maybe we don't need taxes any more, because prediction markets can optimally raise money for public goods.
OK
06:27
O K
Lol I think they will slip in surprise questions that are more personal in nature
06:27
I'm sure you can answer the technical questions easily
Z
06:28
Zack
> which gender do you prefer having sex with?

Maybe we don't need TSA, because amoveo will warn us before terrorism happens.
OK
06:28
O K
Or open ended questions like "So Zack, how did you get into bitcoin"
06:28
In reply to this message
😂
G
06:36
Gonzalo
Zack this documentary is also a good oportunity to ___ your old boss at Aeternity 👈
06:37
Fuck, screw, annoy, unmask???
OK
06:37
O K
It's three characters
06:37
Ass?
G
06:37
Gonzalo
😬
OK
06:37
O K
Ass his old boss?
G
06:38
Gregory
No mater how you motivate ballet dancer she wont write a code in erlang)
G
06:38
Gonzalo
______________
06:42
"...he believes that smart contract coders who build such functionality on top of a blockchain network could potentially be held responsible and be prosecuted.

"I think the appropriate question is whether these code developers could reasonably foresee, at the time they created the code, that it would likely be used by U.S. persons in a manner violative of CFTC regulations," he said."
06:42
Ooohh, scary
MF
06:43
Mr Flintstone
this seems like a free speech issue
Z
06:45
Zack
I am not located in the USA.
06:45
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
the problem is that I already saw the same words somewere
06:46
now i'm trying to find them
MF
06:46
Mr Flintstone
there is no effective difference between communicating an idea in English and code. They are both turing complete
06:46
communication in English is not illegal but in code it is?
06:47
I really don’t think Supreme Court will back this radical view
Z
06:47
Zack
If we get big enough so that the CFTC goes after me, then Amoveo will probably be big enough that you wont need my help any more.
S
06:48
S
Smart contracts and blockchains will definitely be source of debates on the fine line between code and standalone entities
06:49
Zack, there are a lot of beautiful non-extradition countries ;)
OK
06:49
O K
In reply to this message
To really back something, they would have to understand it. Unfortunately they've demonstrated ignorance many times
MF
06:49
Mr Flintstone
they are pretty good with speech
Z
06:50
Zack
the rules for extradition are different depending on the crime.
If I became a target, it isn't clear what crime they would pin on me.
OK
06:50
O K
Maybe, but they are not good with computers
MF
06:50
Mr Flintstone
right
Z
06:50
Zack
Any of us could die or go to prison at any time. An important goal is that none of us should be necessary for Amoveo's success.
06:50
Deleted Account
btw in russia some ppl translate state-channels as state-controlled channels
Z
06:51
Zack
haha, "state" as in "government"? )
M
06:51
Mike
Glad telegram added temporary notification mutes 😜
06:51
Deleted Account
yes
OK
06:51
O K
In reply to this message
Even when there is no extradition treaty, you can get Cody wilson'd
Z
06:51
Zack
right
06:51
Deleted Account
and i guess that not only in russia
OK
06:52
O K
In reply to this message
Marketing is necessary, and right now you happen to be the best face for that. If something happened to you we would have to take the next best
06:52
Deleted Account
from marketing point of view words state-channels must be replaced to "bitcoin-like lightning channels" anywhere
Z
06:53
Zack
I am already doing a lot.
I am pretty radical, is my voice the same as the community's?
You probably want someone different to represent us.
06:54
Deleted Account
the majority of ppl can't find he information what state means
Z
06:54
Zack
In reply to this message
or maybe we could write something short in Russian explaining the basics of Amoveo
OK
06:54
O K
Your voice is worth hearing, if the community disagrees, we can comment separately
06:54
Deleted Account
they jus think that you use this word in conventional sense
OK
06:54
O K
We all know you do a lot, I think it would be unanimous that you should be outsourcing some of the things you do
Z
06:54
Zack
in computer science "state" means "data".
MF
06:54
Mr Flintstone
the community has been pretty clear that it thinks that zack is the best person to do media at this moment
S
06:55
S
1 man army
MF
06:55
Mr Flintstone
But apparently we need to use futarchy which is fine
06:55
I have a feeling this market is gonna get a lot of ppl involved
06:55
many people want to see zack on this documentary
06:55
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
i'm working on new promotional texts for veo and they can be translated to english too)
Z
06:55
Zack
Maybe we should ask futarchy if Mr Flinstone is best.
He should use software so his voice is hidden.
A
06:56
Aries
This is nonsense
06:56
I rescind
MF
06:56
Mr Flintstone
mr flintstone has a rudimentary knowledge of blockchains compared to zack
S
06:57
S
subject-matter expertise isn't required to be a good communicator tho
06:57
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
but many crypto-lovers prefer to speak bout bad goverment, not good programming ))
OK
06:58
O K
In reply to this message
I would admittedly pay a small sum to hear a flintstone interview with a voice overlay
06:58
Deleted Account
for them, word state is a very simple word: a synonym to enemy
Z
06:58
Zack
how about "programmable protocols"
06:59
I think the contracts should be programmable-protocols, and state channels could be programmable-protocol-channels.
06:59
Deleted Account
in a fact you can use any word, but explain it right after usage
Z
06:59
Zack
yes, that is a good strategy
TG
07:06
Toby Ganger
Zack always seems allergic to any sort of human facing appeal…it’s all code based..which is great for the code…bad for adoption
Z
07:10
Zack
mr flinstone did realize things about the oracle before me. He came up with the hard fork to reduce the cost of question type oracles.
JS
07:30
Jon Snow
Zack to do the interview sounds like a no brainer to me
07:33
Zack is also very articulate. The interviews Zack did before were all pretty good
Deleted invited Deleted Account
DY
12:39
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Its some cloudflare issue, its solved
AK
14:37
A K
What a night you guys had, good morning! Channel getting social 😎
T
15:47
Topab
In reply to this message
I would like to see those, do you have a link? I saw the one by the Turkish youtube channel. Nothing more
17:04
This is a great interview @pgonza
JS
19:09
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
And this one from 2015, https://youtu.be/1tdxPzQt4ZI
23:32
Deleted Account
please do the dicaprio interviews zack. its proable to propel Amoveo mainstream.
23:32
you did great the last time
23:33
dont do drugs for the interview. dicaprio will be doing all the acting
23:33
hes one of my fav actors
[
23:52
[Riki]
In reply to this message
And all the drugs
Z
23:54
Zack
They probably don't want video out of my webcam.
I am not sure if I will be able to leave my country until my permanent residency is ready.
OK
23:56
O K
In reply to this message
😂
AK
23:58
A K
I'm sure a crew can be arranged for a shooting anywhere
OK
23:59
O K
Peer pressure isn't always bad
20 October 2018
J
00:03
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
57.7 KB
00:24
Deleted Account
Pleeeeeeeeaaaaase! :)
Ardberg invited Ardberg
M
07:38
Mike
Anyone in the USA buy their Mega Millions ticket? If I win I know what I’m buying..
E
07:40
Eloi
tube?
M
07:41
Mike
Lol
А
09:40
Андрюхин
In reply to this message
bought just 5
N
10:38
NM$L
when binance？
12:12
Deleted Account
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethtrader/comments/9pmfr9/tired_of_the_bear_market_heres_an_opportunity_for/

Apparently a REP holder is betting irrationally, wonder how deep his/her pockets are.
Z
12:23
Zack
The amoveo community has been coming to some different conclusions on this topic.
Some of us have been encouraging subjective questions, because any overly-specific question can be cheated.
If we depend on some specific website or person, they can be bribed.
If we ask the oracle in a vague way, then the community can discuss in the forums. We will realize if some source is inaccurate.

Discussions in forums are where consensus really happens.
The oracle is just a mechanism to encourage consensus.
12:23
I wonder if this means augur's original plan wasn't so good, and subjectivity needs to be embraced.
15:05
Deleted Account
There is clearly going to be a gray area for many questions where the truth is not straightforward to resolve. Seems like there will be risk of losing money if you are betting on these oracles. There might be people exploiting this by throwing money at it. I guess we should hope people learn to identify such oracles soon
A
15:08
Aries
You mean questions like
15:09
Did the Saudis do it? Is he dead
Danil invited Danil
15:49
Deleted Account
I mean like: «Will the weather be good on date _?» Even if you add «sunny and over 20 degrees» theres still a lot of room for interpretation
IP
15:50
I P
In reply to this message
yeah would be cool if Zack does the interview. He is very knowledgeable on the topic and can educate many people with that
15:51
Deleted Account
If the temperature peaks at 20.1 degrees at one place, and perhaps 19.9 degrees nearby, what is the truth? The question itself is not bad, its just difficult to resolve the answer
15:53
Should this question just be left alone by users, or will it escalate into a fork?
15:56
I think perhaps in marginal cases we have to accept that two answers could be a valid truth, and better for users to not place bets in oracles unless the truth is clear. This is just a limitation of having to convert a fuzzy value into binary form
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
19:51
Zack
Yes, I think tallak is probably right
Deleted invited Deleted Account
21 October 2018
00:31
Deleted Account
I guess its just a matter of residual risk that will always be present. Eg even a football match might not be finished with a valid result if the match is stopped before ending. One could not expect an oracle question wording to cover all such eventualities
Z
00:33
Zack
It is exciting to see such a strong disagreement about this in Augur. I hope we get to see the ultimate form of their oracle, where it forks the rep, so everyone has 2 kinds of rep.
00:33
Deleted Account
Then you would risk losing a bet even if you could interpret the situation as not loosing. If the oracle wording is sufficiently clear though, this will not happen very often
00:33
Yeah that would have been an interesting presentation of that eventuality
00:35
How does Augur fork? Is this codified in a contract? I would assume ETH will not fork for Augur...
Z
00:36
Zack
just the rep subcurrency forks. So afterwards there would be 2 altcoins on Ethereum, each working as rep for different oracles on ethereum.
01:05
Deleted Account
I would think that would be a monkey wrench for any software integrated with REP, that needs to keep track of the most valuable fork...
01:05
Exchanges in particular
Z
01:06
Zack
yes, it will be interesting to see how quickly the network adapts.
E
01:26
Enigma
Hello im new to Veo ... Can a Cpu mine at the moment ... or its Gpus now
Z
01:26
Zack
cpu is too slow. you need a gpu if you want to profit.
E
01:26
Enigma
Which is prefered then Nvidia or Amd
Z
01:27
Zack
check in the mining channel in discord.
E
01:27
Enigma
hmmm i don't use discord
OK
01:28
O K
You're welcome to DM me, Vegas and modern nvidia cards work well
01:32
Why Amoveo will succeed
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Tv
04:11
Tarrence van As
I’m having an issue when building the fullnode from master. I had it working earlier but not am getting
04:11 
Node is not running!
make: *** [attach] Error 1
04:11
When doing make prod-attach
Z
04:12
Zack
Instructions have changed because Ubuntu has changed
Tv
04:12
Tarrence van As
This is on OSX
Z
04:12
Zack
Now we can't automatically run in the background.
04:12
I haven't tested much on osx
Tv
04:12
Tarrence van As
Hmm weird part is it was working earlier =/
Z
04:12
Zack
I still recomend trying the new instructions
04:13
On the same machine?
04:13
No update?
Tv
04:14
Tarrence van As
Hmm ok trying to use ./_build/prod/rel/amoveo_core/bin/amoveo_core console instead
04:14
Seems there is a process running already but I just cant attach
Z
04:15
Zack
Maybe there is a zombie process
04:15
There are tools in the scripts file to kill zombies
Tv
04:17
Tarrence van As
Just killed it manually and seems the new command works now
04:17
Thanks!
Z
04:17
Zack
Great
08:03
Deleted Account
hi comrades
08:04
i continue to write an introdiction to veo for newcomers, and need some info on orcacles
08:04
there are 3 possible answers: y, n, wrong question
08:06
Deleted Account
if a person does not want to answer (for example, because do not want to make bets), they will be simply ignored
08:07
but what about those who chose "wrong question"?
08:09
if maximal finances were bet for "wrong question" - their opinion will win?
08:10
and all other participant money (those who said yes or no) - will be given to those who bet for "wrong quesion"?
08:13
the second question (seems obvious but i want to clarify) is next: if someone want to answer question (ie to participate in oracle mechanism) but do not want to risk money - he will be ignored too?
08:14
sorry for english mistakes in these messages, now i'm editing some of them
08:17
the third question: how many Amoveo users are typically participate in oracle mechanism making bets? I'm giess that maybe just several percents or less?
08:21
>A simple way to do the oracle is like this: Every time a decision resolves, the blockchain forks. One side decides that the decision's outcome is "true", the other decides "false". Users know the truth. They prefer the chain that is more honest
08:23
- but what if most bets were for "whong question"?
08:28
The question is “did Amoveo mainnet survive for a month since the Amoveo mainnet genesis block’s timestamp?” We know that the answer to this question is true. Say I bet 10 VEO on true and you bet 5 VEO on false. Now, 5 has matched for both of us at 1:1 odds, and there is 5 unmatched remaining of the type true. The 5 unmatched of type true determines that the oracle now has output type true. If the output type doesn’t change for a certain number of blocks, the oracle is finalized in this state. Next, because the final state was true and I bet on true, I win my matched bet worth 10 and get the 5 that was unmatched back for a total of 15. You lose your matched bet
08:30
if I understand correctly if someone bets 5 VEO for "wrong question", his money will be geven to "me", too
08:32
> If the output type doesn’t change for a certain number of blocks, the oracle is finalized in this state

how much blocks (or time)? how to change it?
MF
09:46
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
you only win what you matched against, so if 2 people match a bad question bet with a false bet , but the oracle ends up true, I think it is deleted for both those ppl
09:46
In reply to this message
1000 blocks which is a governance variable
09:46
Deleted Account
and what about non-gov question?
MF
09:47
Mr Flintstone
can u reply to it sorry lol
09:47
many questions
11:35
Deleted Account
ок, now just one. there are 3 possible answers on question oracle. and what about goverment oracle? is there option "wrong question", or only "true"-"false"?
Z
11:44
Zack
they both have the same 3.
"bad-question" for a governance oracle means that the governance variable does not change.
11:49
Deleted Account
thanx
11:52
and what will happen of "true" gets 10 VEO, "false" 8 VEO and "bad question" 7 VEO? Maximal bets are for "true", but both "false" and "bad question" are in fact against changes and have 7+8 VEO
Z
12:02
Zack
It depends on the order of the bets.
There is an order book.
Bets are matched at 50-50 odds.
12:13
Deleted Account
>If the oracle is about to be closed the wrong way, then you can double your money by making a bet for it to close the right way

does this mean that anyone can see results before oracle closes?
12:13
see amount of bets for all answers
Z
12:16
Zack
The Oracle is on-chain. Everyone can see everything.
12:16
Deleted Account
cool
12:24
Sorry for many questions (some of which I can search in White Paper or other places), but I hope that the result of my work will be very useful for those who need popular explanation of VEO and its really inelligent ideology. It will be translated in English too (not by me but by professional tranlators)
12:29
I was a proponent of futarchy political systems when I didn't know the word futarchy and Robers Hansens name and ideas))
14:51
Deleted Account
@victor_vl im not sure about you, but many people are confused about oracles vs markets. In a binary market you only have two options, who wins is resolved by the oracle. The oracle market is mostly not that interesting for regular users, and probably not where you would make much money
14:52
Deleted Account
i'm interested in futarchy idea
14:52
primarily
14:54
I wrote these to clarify. Also Zacks docs contain a lot of info, but quite detailed and imho not always easy to understand for newcomers. I think articles for newcomers is a great idea, just make sure its accurate :)
14:55
Futarchy is based on prediction markets. The oracle is just a small piece of the puzzle
14:57
I think most users of markets do not need to know much about oracles other than that they are designed to reveal the truth in a cryptoeconomically safe way (in Amoveo at least, other platforms cant say the same)
14:58
If you want to discuss in more depth, please pm
Я
16:12
Ярослав
In reply to this message
I have never done this but now I don’t see the balance after loading the private key !
what should I do?
S
16:12
Sy
Check veoscan
Я
16:15
Ярослав
In reply to this message
is good! but how to transfer coins now?
S
16:20
Sy
Can someone please assist him? Im eating breakfast right now, drinking my coffee and listening to Beethoven 😂
Я
16:21
Ярослав
enjoy your meal !
S
16:31
Sy
Thanks
16:32
Go to veoscan nodes, select zacks wallet, let it sync headers, load privkey file, verify pubkey changed to the one you checked on veoscan, click check balance
Я
16:32
Ярослав
In reply to this message
try now ...
16:36
ty Bro! 👍
S
16:40
Sy
Yw
A
17:21
Aries
Enough with the ICO-Me-So-Horny-Get-Rich--Lambo Crypto
https://www.coindesk.com/enough-with-the-ico-me-so-horny-get-rich-quick-lambo-crypto/
17:22
After reading the above article, I feel we should be more united for Amoveo will stand up to the test of time.
IP
17:59
I P
problem is i don't have my ico lambo
17:59
how come lol =(
K
18:37
Kan
#1 Is single batch pricing a default thing or does the contract should include that logic?
#2 is single batch pricing done onchain or offchain?
Z
19:51
Zack
In reply to this message
Single batch pricing is programmed into the market smart contract.
All smart contracts on amoveo are off chain.
K
19:52
Kan
I see. Thanks
Z
22:35
Zack
I got the disassembler working with chalang.
Here is what the scalar derivative market smart contract looks like, if I disassemble the compiled bytecode.

0 2 ! 0 3 ! 1023 4 ! 33 5 ! 60 6 ! 5000 7 ! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAI= 1 ! 5 8 ! BJDmrdYxlZiG3hTyzcqzBVHJIhX2fUYHH2K+Q2usFVIdPWnaOLdlTAUtAqQLQ6h/XR7qiAjGnLxfyCPIbXF+2hg= 9 ! 1024 10 !
: >r nil =
if drop drop reverse r> drop else drop car swap r@ >r car swap 5 =
if drop drop else fail then
 car swap 1 @ r> swap 28 split tuck + ++ =
if drop drop else fail then
 car drop 32 split drop 1 split swap drop AAAA swap ++ rot cons swap r> 1 + recurse call then
 ;

: nil =
if drop drop 0 else drop car swap 3 =
if drop drop drop 1 else drop drop recurse call then
 then
 ;

: nil =
if drop drop 0 else drop car swap 0 =
if drop drop drop 1 else drop drop recurse call then
 then
 ;

: nil =
if drop drop reverse else drop car swap 2 =
if drop drop 0 else drop drop 1 then
 rot cons swap recurse call then
 ;

: swap nil =
if drop drop else drop car swap rot 2 * + recurse call then
 ;
 200 11 ! swap 0 =
if drop drop 8 @ dup height swap / 0 else drop 1 =
if drop drop swap 40 split dup tuck 9 @ verify_sig 0 =
if 11 @ fail else 11 @ 1 + 11 ! then
 drop drop 4 split swap 2 split AAA= swap ++ swap 2 split AAA= swap ++ swap 1 @ = 0 =
if 11 @ fail else 11 @ 1 + 11 ! then
 drop drop drop drop rot dup 5 @ < not 0 =
if 11 @ fail else 11 @ 1 + 11 ! then
 drop drop tuck 12 ! dup 13 ! dup 7 @ 10000 swap - < not 0 =
if 11 @ fail else 11 @ 1 + 11 ! then
 drop drop >r 14 ! nil swap 0 fkA72WGvKjZZzbg5A2yR1zfuNHdosvcKy0JsOI+broM= call dup BboVLE9DWI7NaAhoJeRjYQIG9Z81JT1TT6qvC9BhFXM= call
if 0 3 10000 7 @ - else dup e4S7MYH4enOLqtY+cvo+cXBOa1TCvnyUPf8OQkeVJcM= call
if 1 1 10000 7 @ - else nil swap nsuAltUZs5IxWteYQGEHpY5ixM3qVJrxwDD9K9CtSNg= call 0 vFpjV195FHNHgGuwlT8v+cSyhmGIB3mAIeTZLxhC5mw= call 4 @ 1024 * 10 @ / 2dup >
if - else drop drop 0 then
 10 @ * 3 @ 4 @ - / 10000 * 1023 / 10000 2dup >
if swap drop else drop then
 10000 swap - 2 @ swap - 0 swap 3 swap then
 then
 rot 6 @ height 2dup >
if - else drop drop 0 then
 6 @ + * tuck swap 6 @ 14 @ 2dup >
if - else drop drop 0 then
 + swap 13 @ 10000 swap - 7 @ =
if drop drop 12 @ * 10000 / 10000 7 @ - 10000 12 @ - * 10000 / + else swap - + then
 else drop 2 =
if drop drop drop 40 split dup tuck 9 @ verify_sig 0 =
if 11 @ fail else 11 @ 1 + 11 ! then
 drop drop 4 split swap 2 split AAA= swap ++ swap 2 split AAA= swap ++ swap 1 @ = 0 =
if 11 @ fail else 11 @ 1 + 11 ! then
 drop drop drop drop rot dup 5 @ < not 0 =
if 11 @ fail else 11 @ 1 + 11 ! then
 drop drop tuck 15 ! >r >r 40 split dup tuck 9 @ verify_sig 0 =
if 11 @ fail else 11 @ 1 + 11 ! then
 drop drop 4 split swap 2 split AAA= swap ++ swap 2 split AAA= swap ++ swap 1 @ = 0 =
if 11 @ fail else 11 @ 1 + 11 ! then
 drop drop drop drop rot dup 5 @ < not 0 =
if 11 @ fail else 11 @ 1 + 11 ! then
 drop drop tuck 16 ! swap r> 2dup 2dup >
if swap drop else drop then
 >r 2dup >
if drop else swap drop then
 r> - 8 @ 2 / < 0 =
if 11 @ fail else 11 @ 1 + 11 ! then
 drop drop r> = not tuck drop drop 15 @ 16 @ = not tuck drop drop or 0 =
if 11 @ fail else 11 @ 1 + 11 ! then
 drop drop 0 1000000 1000000 + 0 else drop 3 =
if drop drop drop 40 split dup tuck 9 @ verify_sig 0 =
if 11 @ fail else 11 @ 1 + 11 ! then
 drop drop 4 split swap 2 split AAA= swap ++ swap 2 split AAA= swap ++ swap 1 @ = 0 =
if 11 @ fail else 11 @ 1 + 11 ! then
 drop drop drop drop rot dup 5 @ < not 0 =
if 11 @ fail else 11 @ 1 + 11 ! then
 drop drop tuck height 8 @ - > 0 =
if 11 @ fail else 11 @ 1 + 11 ! then
 drop drop drop 8 @ / 1 + >r 6 @ height - r> 10000 7 @ - else drop 4 =
if drop drop nil swap 0 fkA72WGvKjZZzbg5A2yR1zfuNHdosvcKy0JsOI+broM= call e4S7MYH4enOLqtY+cvo+cXBOa1TCvnyUPf8OQkeVJcM= call
if 6 @ 8 @ + 2000 + 0 10000 7 @ - else 8 @ 1 10000 7 @ - then
 else drop then
 then
 then
 then
 then
 10000 * 7 @ 10000 + / return
22:40
for now it is displaying the hash of the function instead of the name of the function, and the functions are nameless.
Which makes it difficult to read.
23:37
Deleted Account
I still dont understand the context these contracts run in though. Like how do the parties agree which code to run, how the pieces of code are initiated and how state is transferred between each time code is run (i think I would have to understand this before I could understand any contract code)
Z
23:39
Zack
It's channels. Like the lightning network in bitcoin.

A channel state needs both parties to sign for it to be valid.
It is similar to a 2 of 2 multisig address in bitcoin.
23:47
Deleted Account
So I should find a document about lightning channels?
23:48
I think we should replicate some of this info in the Amoveo community. People coming here will not have all the background info that you have. At the very least link to relevant docs in other projects
Z
23:49
Zack
Did you read the documents about tx types and trees?
22 October 2018
00:34
Deleted Account
Ill read those again.
00:35
For the paranoid HODLers out there. A guy was murdered in norway, apparently shortly after converting a large anount if bitcoin into cash: https://resett.no/2018/10/17/tv-2-drapsoffer-pa-majorstuen-vekslet-ut-bitcoin-for-drapet/
Z
00:44
Zack
A friend of mine told me a strategy for this.
The key is to remember that once you give them the money, they have no reason to keep you alive.
As long as you haven't given the money yet, there is still a chance that you will live.

Some people say it is best to have multiple wallets, and only give out the small one.
This is a bad strategy because once you have paid the small wallet, since they don't know about the big wallet, they have no reason to keep you alive.
S
00:51
Sy
I doubt many can read that article 😁
Z
00:51
Zack
Chrome didn't auto translate it
01:31
Hmmm. Its the problem of blackmail then. Difficult to say no with a knife to your throat I guess. Seems like you all have been smart to stay anonymous
Z
01:31
Zack
seems like they don't know much.
Violence and bitcoin are both more common in the black market.
01:32
Paying someone to not reveal information doesn't work well. There is no way to destroy information, they can make you pay another ransom afterwards.
01:36
Deleted Account
Hehe. ransom is not cryptoeconomically secure? Had to come from you :)
AK
01:43
A K
Yep we need a RAC
01:57
Deleted Account
BTW i read the two pages a few times, but dont answer my questions. will try to find a text on lightning network
T
02:13
Topab
Aries @pandakicksball thanks. Will listen to those
04:06
Deleted Account
I read half of the bitcoin lightning network white paper. it is quite complex. i still have no answers for my questions
Z
04:07
Zack
I doubt you would learn much from the bitcoin lightning white paper.

That is like trying to learn addition by looking at the circuitry used to calculate addition on a chip.

channels are super simple.
04:08
Deleted Account
maybe this should be explained in the github docs...
Z
04:08
Zack
channels on bitcoin are crazy complex because bitcoin wasn't designed for this.
So they do a bunch of complicated hacks
04:09
how about this document labeled "channels"
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/channels.md
04:09
Deleted Account
so when you say amoveo channels are like lightning network its not entirely accurate. because bitcoin doesnt have onchain code
04:11
In reply to this message
yes. bitcoin channels are only for payments. We have state channels which are programmable.
04:17
Deleted Account
Let me ask a simple question: When I open a channel, is all the contract code finalized and signed by both parties at that point, or may code be added as we go?
Z
04:18
Zack
when you open a channel, the channel state starts out practically empty.
It just says how much of the money in the channel will go to you, and the rest goes to the other person.
04:18
the smart contract is off-chain, it only gets published if there is a disagreement.
04:19
Deleted Account
then any party could submit a code to the channel that both sides must sign?
Z
04:19
Zack
I don't understand that question.
04:20
"submit a code to the channel"
I don't know what this could mean.
04:20
"any party could submit .... that both sides must sign"
That sounds impossible.
How could someone be required to sign something? doesn't that get rid of the purpose of a signature?
04:20
Deleted Account
Let me rephrase: after creating the channel, how could the server inject a «smart contract» into the empty channel?
Z
04:21
Zack
what server?

If you and I want to have a contract in our channel, then we both sign it and give the signatures to each other.
04:22
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/smart_contracts.md
more documentation about programmable channels
04:22
Deleted Account
so the code is shared, then signed by both parties.
04:23
Deleted Account
that makes it the most current state of the channel i guess
04:24
What I am looking for is really basic: how do the two parties agree on which code to sign?
Z
04:25
Zack
you could email it, or send it by a telegram PM
04:25
or program it into an API
04:25
you could write it on a sheet of paper, and discreetly give it to them in a handshake.
04:26
Deleted Account
hmmm. my brain hurts :)
Z
04:27
Zack
you could embed it into the insignificant bits of a photo of your cat, that way you can steganographically make a smart contract to circumvent censorship.
04:27
You could both go to a crypto-lawyer's office, and get their help in writing a contract that works well for both parties.
04:28
I expect the most popular way to agree on contracts will be from clicking on a button programmed in javascript, and the contract is all automatic in the background. embedded into an API.
04:29
your javascript wallet is programmed to only let you agree to contracts that do what you expect them to.
Kz
04:29
Kirill zp
go to the moon pls admin need money
04:29
Deleted Account
is there a merkle tree for the state of a channel, so you dont need to replay all code?
Z
04:30
Zack
Each function is identified by the hash of it's code.
So the functions are merkelized.
You only have to provide definitions of functions which get executed.
04:32
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang
Chalang is documented in this different repository
04:34
Deleted Account
and how could state be transferred to a second contract, if we both signed it? will the stack be preserved?
Z
04:35
Zack
we can do hashlocking to simultaneously update multiple smart contracts.

Updating a single smart contract is simpler. we just rewrite it and use a higher nonce.
04:35
Deleted Account
can i trigger just a function of a contract, or does it execute in one piece?
04:36
sorry for all the questions. i want to understand this
Z
04:36
Zack
I don't understand this question. Maybe review the transaction types again. Those are the only things you can do in Amoveo.
04:37
if you try to close a channel using an old version of history, then your partner will probably block you by publishing the most recent version.
You both would waste money on tx fees in that case.
04:38
In the majority of cases no code gets run on-chain.
IP
06:35
I P
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😁, 26.6 KB
joxtz invited joxtz
Tv
10:53
Tarrence van As
I seem to be having an issue synching block 1050, keep getting the following
10:53 
could not get block 1050 from peer [-7,[-7,138,68,4,55],8080]could not get block 1050 from peer [-7,[-7,70,133,222,59],8080]could not get block 1050 from peer [-7,[-7,70,133,222,59],8080]could not get block 1050 from peer [-7,[-7,73,95,148,9],8080]could not get block 1050 from peer [-7,[-7,88,99,245,31],8080]could not get block 1050 from peer [-7,[-7,104,238,149,86],8080]could not get block 1050 from peer [-7,[-7,51,15,75,100],8080]could not get block 1050 from peer [-7,[-7,150,109,104,200],8080]could not get block 1050 from peer [-7,[-7,138,68,4,55],8080]
10:53
Any idea what could be causing it? I’ve tried resyncing a few times
10:53
Always stalls on 1050
Z
10:54
Zack
It tries downloading 1000, I think it means you are stuck on 0.
Did you completely delete all the database files before resync ?
It seems like some database file could be corrupted
Tv
10:55
Tarrence van As
Hmm on I didnt try that. Will a make prod-clean delete all db’s?
Z
10:55
Zack
Yeah, it does
10:56
And what if you do sync:start(). ?
10:57
Or is it sync:doit (). ?

One of those .
Tv
10:58
Tarrence van As
working now it seems
10:58
ty
Z
11:16
Zack
Great
12:02
🤔
13:48
Deleted Account
This would cause many people to be fearful
Azes invited Azes
23 October 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
M⛏
01:52
Moe ⛏
Zack what can we do to convince you to do this documentary? It seems everyone in here agrees it would be great for us.
T
03:32
Tromp
Hello, anyone from amoveo.exchange around?
[
03:33
[Riki]
In reply to this message
@demiculus the man himself
Z
03:33
Zack
there is a channel for amoveo.exchange on discord.
T
03:33
Tromp
Thx
Ledger Alpha invited Ledger Alpha
IP
14:00
I P
In reply to this message
would be great for blockchain space overall
IP
14:20
I P
it is very rare when knowledgeable people have opportunity to speak abot the technology on media with good coverage Zack
14:21
usually people who speak about blockchain bitcoin and so on did not write a single line of code in their lives
AP invited AP
A
16:18
AP
Hey guys
16:18
Is amoveo.exchange legit?
M
16:26
Minieep21
Yes, it is good
16:26
I have made several trades
A
16:27
AP
I made a deposit. Its confirmed but doesnt show on the account...
M
17:04
Minieep21
My ETH deposit took a long time.
If yours take too long maybe contact the exchange owners on Discord, they are very active and help a lot.
A
17:05
AP
Received! They helped immediately. Thanks!
Deleted invited Deleted Account
24 October 2018
IP
02:29
I P
@TTWin83 it is legit but very new so if deposit/withdrawal takes too much time you can write is discord channel dedicated to the exchange. qtrade is also legit. i used both and expericence was smooth
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
04:54
Shaun
Appreciate you guys vouching for us 👍

I guess executing transactions really fast since we've launched the exchange has put us in a difficult position now :D, we've set the expectation too high and now when the executions are delayed for even 10 minutes we get complaints :D. I can totally relate to the perspective of the trader though and I don't blame them, I'd wanna make sure my money is in good hands. If a transaction is delayed, we try to help and get it processed whenever you guys reach out to us.

We've identified what was causing the 15-35 min delays in executions (which happens ocassionaly) and will roll out a fix in a few days.

Also while I'm on a rant, we're currently in the works of a big refactor + markets + features on the platform. Hopefully you guys will like it 👍
Instinct invited Instinct
IP
06:55
I P
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
👍, 39.1 KB
06:55
thanks for the good work
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
10:49
Zack
http://159.89.106.253:8087/main.html
No one has used the escrow tool in months.
I wonder if it stopped working.
waves invited waves
Tim invited Tim
SUNNY B invited SUNNY B
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Snorrie Snortoshi invited Snorrie Snortoshi
SS
15:17
Snorrie Snortoshi
Hi where can I buy this coin and whats the link to the website ?
AK
15:19
A K
only github for now
15:19
both legit
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Shankar Jat invited Shankar Jat
AK
15:39
A K
btw qtrade guys, can you add your exchange? https://coinpaprika.com/coin/veo-amoveo/#!exchanges
coinlordd | dsynths invited coinlordd | dsynths
Yim invited Yim
SS
16:34
Spike Spiegel
Can we have api endpoint for total supply?
Adam Alpha invited Adam Alpha
A
17:39
Aries
Welcome Adam, Coinfreak, Rakesh, Yim, DXT, Sunny, Waves, Tim and Sunny🌞
Deleted invited Deleted Account
AK
17:46
A K
and Mak.
A
18:07
Aries
and Mak 🙂
S
18:09
S S
Hey guys should we start a fund to buy out the amoveo domain squatters that zack tweeted about
18:09
Should be good for the project long term
AK
18:13
A K
In reply to this message
which one?
18:16
Deleted Account
not nesseary
18:17
there are so many domain extentions
T
19:21
Topab
Has the Nakamoto consensus been tested for a lying oracle situation? If never tested we don't know if it really woks
19:35
Deleted Account
I think a fork is such a generic mechanism that it’s bound to work
19:36
Someone would have to implement a fork to sensor bets though. This is not built in, but someone knowledgeable should be able to do it
Z
19:40
Zack
In reply to this message
No. We should not reward squatters by paying them!
19:40
In reply to this message
Sure
S
19:43
S S
In reply to this message
But what if one day they harm the project. Big companies reduce their risk like this
19:44
In early stages this amount would be really small
19:44
Later a problem
Z
20:03
Zack
I will never pay a squatter, or support a plan to pay them.
AK
20:09
A K
What's the domain name?
20:14
Amoveo com ?