Amoveo ♥🧿
5 October 2018
Z
05:24
Zack
putting 2000 veo onto a full node at all was risky.
I should make better guides on how to do this with cold storage.
M
05:25
Marc
that would come in handy
Z
05:34
Zack 
68> trees:dict_tree_get(accounts, ID, dict:new(), element(10, block:get_by_height(35908))).
{acc,462466830088,10,
69> trees:dict_tree_get(accounts, ID, dict:new(), element(10, block:get_by_height(35907))).
     {acc,229015060066,9,
73> trees:dict_tree_get(accounts, ID, dict:new(), element(10, block:get_by_height(35866))).
  {acc,19999947882,7,
74> trees:dict_tree_get(accounts, ID, dict:new(), element(10, block:get_by_height(35865))).
       {acc,223667467882,6,
75> trees:dict_tree_get(accounts, ID, dict:new(), element(10, block:get_by_height(35862)))
    {acc,7467882,6,
05:44 
> trees:dict_tree_get(accounts, ID, dict:new(), element(10, block:get_by_height(35862)))
{acc,7467882,6,

863 spend: receive 2236.6 veo

> trees:dict_tree_get(accounts, ID, dict:new(), element(10, block:get_by_height(35863))).
{acc,223667467882,6,


> trees:dict_tree_get(accounts, ID, dict:new(), element(10, block:get_by_height(35865))).
{acc,223667467882,6,

866 oracle_bet: 2036.7 veo

> trees:dict_tree_get(accounts, ID, dict:new(), element(10, block:get_by_height(35866))).
{acc,19999947882,7,

> trees:dict_tree_get(accounts, ID, dict:new(), element(10, block:get_by_height(35905))).
{acc,19999947882,7,

906 oracle_close

trees:dict_tree_get(accounts, ID, dict:new(), element(10, block:get_by_height(35906))).
{acc,19999795764,8,

907 oracle_winnings

> trees:dict_tree_get(accounts, ID, dict:new(), element(10, block:get_by_height(35907))).
{acc,229015060066,9,

908 oracle_unmatched

> trees:dict_tree_get(accounts, ID, dict:new(), element(10, block:get_by_height(35908))).
{acc,462466830088,10,
05:47
oracle winnings paid 2090 veo. oracle unmatched paid 2334.5 veo
B
05:48
Ben
so the bug is in oracle winnings
05:48
hmmh no
05:48
has to be a comibnation
Z
05:48
Zack
right, there is no way oracle winnings should have paid more than how much was matched
MF
05:48
Mr Flintstone
Yeah has to be both
05:49
his unmatched bets were only 2300
05:49
unless I am mistaken
B
05:49
Ben
this show's one thing for sure, we need an accurate history to tackle down such issues.
Z
05:50
Zack
only ~200 veo was matched, so oracle winnings is definitely broken. unmatched might be ok, since he bet around ~2600, it could be that ~267 were matched, which would make the unmatched portion ~2334
05:51
In reply to this message
oh, did you calculate 2300 using the bets?
MF
05:53
Mr Flintstone
just from memory
05:53
since it became 600 unmatched, then 2000 were added
05:53
and 300 were someone else
Z
05:53
Zack
from looking at the bets, I calculate that he bet 2476.7 veo in total
05:54
over 7 different bets
B
05:55
Ben
sound accurate
Z
05:56
Zack
If we assume that unmatched tx is accurate, and oracle winnings tx has the bug, then
since 2334.5 veo were unmatched, that means his other 142 veo must have been matched.
05:57
so the reward would have been 284 veo. in that case he was over-paid by 1806 veo
05:57
I think the way to solve this is by writing some tests, and identifying where the veo is getting duplicated
MF
06:04
Mr Flintstone
the last time the output type flipped from bad question to false was the first 300 bet
06:04
So everything before that is considered matched
06:05
and about 2 of that 300 veo bet was matched, leaving 298 unmatched
06:05
so I would think Ben should get 2298 back from his unmatched veo
06:06
unless I am missing something
Z
06:07
Zack
you think that more than 300 veo were matched?
MF
06:07
Mr Flintstone
I calculate 320 matched veo
06:07
322
Z
06:07
Zack
I thought there were 2 300-veo bets.
MF
06:07
Mr Flintstone
these were both unmatched. one was not Ben and one was
Z
06:08
Zack
that is so weird that 2 people would bet the same amount at the same time
MF
06:08
Mr Flintstone
Sorry - 324 matched veo
06:08
In reply to this message
well they were at least different pub keys
Z
06:10
Zack
thanks for the help mr flintstone.
now that I know the other person's 300 matched, and it wasn't Ben's, the numbers work out nice
MF
06:10
Mr Flintstone
so assuming the only people who won anything in this oracle were Ben and the other dude, since the other dude got 347 veo, Ben should get 324-47 or around 280 veo in winnings from matching
Z
06:10
Zack
I think about 142 veo of Ben's veo got matched, everything from before the 300-veo bet
06:11
about 140*2 = 280 yes
MF
06:11
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
I think the other persons 300 did not match, but that person won some veo from earlier betting
Z
06:12
Zack
one of the two 300's must have matched.
Ben made 140 veo of bets before the 300
06:12
oh, maybe neither 300 matched, that is possible if someone made some smaller bet
MF
06:12
Mr Flintstone
Ben made the first bet for 300. This matched 2 veo of the unmatched bad question
06:12
at least according to my calc
06:13
From this data
06:13
06:13
I backed into all of the stuff I mentioned above
Z
06:15
Zack
seems like there are 1806 extra veo being produced
MF
06:16
Mr Flintstone
maybe I did the math wrong, but I’m concerned that I can’t reconcile the time series of bets and types with the unmatched amount of 2334
06:16
I get 2298
06:17
but I probably made a mistake somewhere, and the issue is just in oracle winnings
Z
06:18
Zack
90
29
1
10
10
300
2036.67

This is the bets in cronological order.
It seems like the first 5 bets got matched, and 2 more veo. the last 2 bets were not matched, besides 2 veo.
B
06:21
Ben
that looks correct to me, in regards to the total not in regards to the order of bets, but i might be wrong
MF
06:21
Mr Flintstone
Oh, sorry
06:22
I thought it was just 2000 :)
06:22
yep, I’m comfortable with unmatched being right then
Z
06:26
Zack
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA="
This is a simple burn address. It would be cooler if we could get it to say BURNBURNBURN or something like that
06:28
So there is an advantage to doing this quickly.
The exchanges want the bad money burned so they can turn trading back on
06:29
Ben
it seems like 1805.6 veo is how much needs to be burned.
If in the future we find out that this was a mistake, we can burn more then, or we can do a hard update to pay you back.
06:30
So lets burn this money now
06:30
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=
06:31
I wonder if we should turn off the oracle until this gets resolved.
M⛏
06:32
Moe ⛏
Wonder if this has happened before unnoticed ?
Z
06:32
Zack
it probably happened on every oracle_winnings tx.
06:32
but this is the first time the bets were big enough to notice
06:33
On almost every other oracle, I was the only one to bet, so I did the oracle winnings txs
MF
06:37
Mr Flintstone
I wonder if the burnt veo made it so sys tool told us everything is ok
06:37
when he checked the total veo amount
06:38
Cuz oracle_winnings was low before
Z
06:38
Zack
the oracles have been small and few so far. less than the 100 veo that have been burned
MF
06:38
Mr Flintstone
Yep that’s what I mean
06:42
do you have an idea of what is causing the oracle winnings bug?
Z
06:44
Zack
it is probably some mistake in oracle_bet_tx
06:44
or maybe in orders.erl
MF
06:45
Mr Flintstone
weird thing is only Ben was afflicted
06:45
the other winner got the right amount it looks like
Z
06:45
Zack
In reply to this message
are you sure?
MF
06:45
Mr Flintstone
that’s at least what he communicated
Z
06:45
Zack
did I get the right amount?
MF
06:45
Mr Flintstone
We can check
Z
06:46
Zack
It seems like having large unmatched bets is related to the problem somehow
MF
06:46
Mr Flintstone
I think the other 300 veo bettor won some that was matched
Z
06:46
Zack
maybe it is in the code for a partially matched bet
06:47
unmatched bets are stored with the oracle.
Matched bets are stored with the account that made it.

If a bet is partially matched, it is divided into 2 bets, that way part can stay with the oracle and part can be stored with the account.
B
06:48
Ben
ok, so you want me to send 1800 VEO to the Burn Address?
Z
06:48
Zack
1805.6 veo to AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=
06:49
Thank you for helping us to make Amoveo better
B
06:49
Ben
1805 max. .6 is to cover that i do that shit on my Holiday while on Beach :P
06:49
are we sure that AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA= cannot be created?
Z
06:49
Zack
oh, good point. 0 is weird
06:50
ill make another one
06:51
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEFAx4lA9qJP3/x4hz1EkNIQAAAAAAAAA=
06:52
In Ethereum their addresses are in hex, and the burn address is like 0xDEADDEADDEAD, so I am pretty sure choosing a random number for the pubkey should make it impossible to derive the private key
06:52
this address is a big decimal number
06:52
maybe randomness is best
B
06:52
Ben
ok
06:53
is end it to that address
Z
06:53
Zack
give me a second, I think I can do even better
06:54
<<"TRxadRzHakUaYe3eI0SpNDsN4+NZ+NMb1/pzXtOVSsw5MlVSm6TvUjqPoNlSlJuaJpg6hfat">>
06:54
TRxadRzHakUaYe3eI0SpNDsN4+NZ+NMb1/pzXtOVSsw5MlVSm6TvUjqPoNlSlJuaJpg6hfat
B
06:55
Ben
2late
Z
06:55
Zack
no worries, any of these should be fine
B
06:55
Ben
;(
06:55
okay
06:55
you should see it in the next block
MF
06:56
Mr Flintstone
thanks Ben
B
06:56
Ben
yw.
IP
06:57
I P
nice, now pomp eeet!
06:57
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
🙉, 35.2 KB
B
07:04
Ben
1805000 mveo successfully sent. txid = vzI59J7dtL9YdjaVPGC8juC8tDV3VLOQlcc2j9CRPew=
07:04
if anyone want to track
07:05
back to the beach
Z
07:13
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/txs/oracle_bet_tx.erl#L137
Maybe on this line it should have been Matches2 instead of Matches1.
It doesn't make sense to create oracle_bets for orders that are unmatched.
L invited L
07:16
put your bids back on exchanges
Z
07:16
Zack
Ben
Thanks for the support, enjoy the beach
IP
07:17
I P
Ben you are the man, thanks! 👍
07:17
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
👍, 39.1 KB
I
07:19
Iridescence
lucky that Ben was here and had goodwill
Z
07:19
Zack
the burn address is #3 on the rich list
07:19
In reply to this message
we could have done a hard update to lock the excess coins, if he didn't cooperate.
IP
07:19
I P
need to make a patch and somehow make that hardfork obligatory for all node
I
07:19
Iridescence
In reply to this message
😂
Z
07:20
Zack
In reply to this message
we have done many hard forks before.
The trick is getting the mining pools to update.
IP
07:21
I P
i think btc had a lot of bugs in the early days
Z
07:21
Zack
btc had a bug solved just in the last few weeks that let people print bitcoin from nothing
IP
07:21
I P
i think in a year or too amoveo will be more or less bug free
07:22
In reply to this message
it was not easy to use that bug+ that bug was easy to detect and it would split network, old nodes (plenty of 0.14) did not have that bug
07:28
guys sorry for being such a noob but how can i check the current reward in block explorer?
Z
07:29
Zack
I think it doesn't say on any explorer
IP
07:30
I P
ok so where can we check it then?
OK
07:31
O K
You could watch veopool's balance between two blocks and calc the difference
Z
07:32
Zack
ill add this to my todo list. This is a good idea.
For now we can just tell you.
07:32
currently the reward is 0.6414 veo
IP
07:33
I P
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😃, 18.6 KB
Z
07:35
Zack
@potat_o @Simon3456
I am running tests on a hard update to fix this issue with the oracle. I am hoping we can get it merged in the next couple of days.
OK
07:37
O K
👍
IP
07:39
I P
@Simon3456 also need to update veopool mining calculator. are there any other calculators?
DV
07:58
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
https://calc.exan.tech supports VEO
07:59
though it doesn't use updated reward yet
IP
07:59
I P
yeah, was my point- calculators need to update
07:59
would be cool if there was an api where calculators could get current block reward auto
08:08
woow
MF
08:32
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
node commands
Z
08:33
Zack
you can use the external api to request a merkel proof of any governance value yes.
A
08:33
Aries
In reply to this message
Yes!!!
Deleted invited Deleted Account
A
08:46
Aries
Yes!!!!
Z
09:46
Zack
@potat_o @Simon3456
I set up a hard update that will engage at 36120. Hopefully you will both update the mining pools before then.

All full nodes will need to update before the first oracle_bet tx after height 36120.
OK
09:47
O K
Can we make sure to test this in a realistic environment
Z
09:48
Zack
What do you mean? I ran all the normal tests
M
10:29
Mike
Is there a cool down before another gov oracle can be opened for block reward?
Z
10:29
Zack
no. you can run governance oracles concurrently.
10:30
you just can't have 2 governance oracles connected to the same variable at the same time
M
10:31
Mike
Couldn’t ben open oracles over and over and roll over any winnings and continually lower block reward?
MF
10:32
Mr Flintstone
someone trying to lower the reward again would be free money I think
10:32
just my view
10:32
i don’t think many people here think that is a good idea
M
10:32
Mike
Don’t think there’s enough people savvy enough to outmatch Ben
MF
10:32
Mr Flintstone
we don’t need to outmatch him
Z
10:33
Zack
My recommendation to the community is that all governance oracles need a futarchy market to tell us how to resolve them.
If there is no futarchy market, we should say bad-question by default.
M
10:36
Mike
In reply to this message
Okay yeah I’m wrong.
MF
10:37
Mr Flintstone
aside from lining our pockets, it reduces the bankroll of an attacker
OK
10:40
O K
In reply to this message
What are the normal tests? They didn't catch the issue the first time around
10:41
I'm just suggesting that if we have one week it would be worth testing thoroughly and maybe sleeping on the changes and reviewing them
Z
10:48
Zack
In reply to this message
I agree that reviewing the oracle in depth for more possible errors is a good strategy.
I disagree that delaying the current fix could be good.

This is a known vulnerability, we should patch it immediately before someone exploits it.
IP
11:31
I P
actually, why not have a testnet of amoveo? a couple of nodes, 1 cpu mining, fast blocks by default and so on
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
12:17
Zack
Sure, a test net sounds good.
We should set the Oracle to resolve much quicker in the test net
IP
12:20
I P
In reply to this message
yep testnet will allow for fast testing of new features and bugfixes
12:21
Deleted Account
wrt to the burn address its better to not use random numbers because we have to trust the issuer that it is random. just A’s is better because that would be as hard to crack as any other public key
IP
12:21
I P
In reply to this message
well, we ended up with a lot of AAAAAAAAAAA, like from that musicvideo
12:23
Deleted Account
even with the address used, it might be possible to mine this pubkey a lot easier than a full key. i think it would be impossible for zack to do this within a day, but in theory he could have prepared the key upfront
12:24
i dont think there is reason for suspicion, just my opinion that the A’s are better
12:25
if we want a more random looking key, perhaps sha a known text, like a poem
IP
12:31
I P
In reply to this message
let alone to do it in 10 minutes...
Z
13:21
Zack
In reply to this message
I think the number 0 might be special in a elliptic curve domain.
13:22
In reply to this message
you can check yourself, it is a large decimal number like 100000000000000000000000000000
13:23
I think we need to talk to someone educated in elliptic curve cryptography to be really sure about this
13:24
eth addresses are the hash of the pubkey, so it is totally secure for them to use any random data for a burn address
13:24
our addresses are the pubkey
13:25
this might have been a mistake. but we can do a hard update to make that veo unspendable.
13:26
probably the pubkey isn't the correct format to be a valid pubkey. you know how the first couple letters of our pubkeys are always just a small handfull of combinations
13:27
it is possible to express a pubkey in 1/2 as many bytes, that means that the first half of the bytes uniquely defines the second half.
So the odds that a random number is a valid pubkey are practically zero
S
15:35
Sy
good morning...more or less ^^
15:35
i find it really odd that you have to guess or think about the bets...
Z
15:37
Zack
are you on board for the hard update?
S
15:37
Sy
im always on board
Z
15:38
Zack
great
15:38
do you know how to contact whoever is running that third pool?
S
15:39
Sy
hmm stupid telegramm wont let me paste images anymore
15:39
yes
15:39
until what block?
Z
15:39
Zack
IP posted one just recently
S
15:40
Sy
yeah im not sure whats wrong on my end, cant paste images in discord, telegramm or any messenger anymore, really odd
15:40
might be time to reboot :D
Z
15:40
Zack
36120
S
15:42
Sy
brb rebooting, windows is running for 3 weeks now xD
Z
15:42
Zack
protip: don't use windows
S
15:53
Sy
na
15:53
hmm but where is oracle create...
15:54
can you add the pubkey_to for oracle_new to the block?
15:55
ah it is...just somewhere new again
Z
15:56
Zack
this is all the interaction with the one oracle?
15:56
it would be great if you could double-check that we burned the correct amount of veo
S
15:56
Sy
yes thats all
15:56
i am modifying my parser so i can get the oracle id from the oracle_new tx
Z
15:56
Zack
I calculated that 1805.6 excess veo were created
S
15:59
Sy
Photo
903×86
15:59
ah working again
16:00
we had 162 on bad question
16:00
your 1 got matched
16:00
that leaves 161 matched by BP3
16:00
so 2315 unmatched
Z
16:01
Zack
I got that 142 were matched.
Are you sure someone else didn't make a 19 veo bet?
S
16:01
Sy
those are all
16:02
i will do a nice view later
16:02
hopefully later today
16:02
this is all database for now
16:02
gotta add some logic to look for oracles, then create a list
Z
16:02
Zack
I think that 19 of the 319 veo bet could have been matched, right?
S
16:03
Sy
ah the bg address
16:03
true
Z
16:03
Zack
because many of us made more smaller bets
S
16:03
Sy
let me add some logic that does the math, easier ^^
16:13
can i get the current block reward via curl?
Z
16:13
Zack
you can ask for any consensus state along with it's merkel proof
16:14
from the external api
IP
16:19
I P
In reply to this message
what linux distro do you think is 'fine'? ubuntu lts 16.04.5 is ok? or centos/arch is better?
Z
16:20
Zack
I usually use ubuntu. I wrote the Ubuntu install instructions. There are also some arch instructions that I haven't tested.
16:20
ive been thinking of switching to FreeBSD.
S
16:24
Sy
Ubuntu 18.04 tho
IP
16:25
I P
In reply to this message
better security or kernel or what?
Z
16:28
Zack
it is easier to have more control in freebsd vs ubuntu.
Yes, I should probably get Amoveo working better on 18.04 first, since that is easier for people to use on vps.
IP
16:29
I P
yep ubuntu is very popular. nowadays. almost makes me wonder... ubuntu could become a popular attack vector like windows
Z
16:31
Zack
A friend of mine set up software to read deleted files off his hard drive.
It was full of pictures of people he never saw before.

My guess is that the people who infect us with viruses are renting out our excess hard drive space.
16:33
Cold storage is the only chance at security we have today.
S
16:37
Sy
its usually because you get used hard drives...
Z
16:37
Zack
oh, maybe that is what happened
16:38
still, I think any kind of security of a pc, besides cold storage, is futile.
IP
16:40
I P
can we have a ledger support for amoveo?
16:40
ledger nano s
Z
16:40
Zack
it is using the same pubkey system as bitcoin, so it should be possible
16:50
Deleted Account
Is there still any mismatch between full node and veoscan?
It seems that right now they show same balances.
https://veoscan.io/account/BP3W4rXjyaZgLbEydYqGIuolbnnh9%252BE%252FLLsXA%252Bv%252FRPuJWzzcCZUAF3O8GcMlpg5%252F8wk2P5CoeC110HKnPeCcMVA%253D
16:51
Anyway, veoscan just fetches related account balances from full node when a block is found.
So if there's mismatch always trust full node.
S
16:52
Sy
the only way to get balance is via the fullnode anyway
16:53
there are too many txs without any amount
16:53
Deleted Account
yep
S
16:54
Sy
Zack so when someone does a tx with "oracle_winnings" the node automaticly grants him his winnings?

any way to include that amount into the block?
16:54
same with oracle_unmatched
Z
16:57
Zack
In reply to this message
Correct.

We could do a hard update to put it in the block.
You can also read this out of the consensus state, but it gets removed from consensus state when the payment is made.

Oracle unmatched is the same.
S
17:11
Sy
as we already know, everything not recorded somewhere or lost is bad
17:11
can you please add it to the block? we are doing a hard update anyway...
17:12
same with account delete and all those others who spend or receive veo but just arent recorded anywhere...
17:14
everything only the node knows is actually bad for transparency and controlling imho
IP
17:34
I P
In reply to this message
+1 needed update
S
20:18
Sy
curl -i -d '["proof", "Z292ZXJuYW5jZQ==", 5, Hash]' http://localhost:8080
is Hash a variable?
22:23
Deleted Account
Now unit in Veoscan is back to VEO.
AK
22:23
Alex K
In reply to this message
👍
6 October 2018
IP
00:21
I P
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
I can't handle this
[-7,[-6,[-7,"aWQ=",0],[-7,"anNvbnJwYw==","Mi4w"],[-7,"bWV0aG9k","ZXRoX2Jsb2NrTnVtYmVy"]]]absorb block 36000
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
dropped a tx
00:21
a lot of dropped a tx messages on node today
00:22
also that message is kind of strange
00:22
i did git pull and prod-restart the node 8 hours ago or so
Z
01:12
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes. Capitalized words are variables.
S
01:18
Sy
Because that returns nothing
Z
01:47
Zack
base64:decode("Z292ZXJuYW5jZQ==").
<<"governance">>
2>
01:47
what are you trying to look up?
t
01:47
tunez 💙🚀
odds we get listed on maplechange?
Z
01:51
Zack
@Simon3456 the Hash is the root hash of the block who's data you want to look up.
By default the full node only stores there merkel proofs for the most recent 50 blocks or so
IP
01:59
I P
In reply to this message
wtf is maplechange?
an7e invited an7e
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
t
02:57
tunez 💙🚀
cheap exchange to get listed on...will bring more volume to veo
IP
03:13
I P
Veo has 2 exchanges working
A K invited Geoff
04:04
Deleted Account
@zack i did not realize the pubkey could not be any bits. In that case the «AAA...» key is probably the closest we could get to a safe burn address :)
04:06
I noticed the first bytes are special when writing my vanity generator
Z
04:08
Zack
I'm not an expert in elliptic curve crypto.
But i did write an elliptic curve field calculator for a project in college.
I remember seeing my friend studying this massive 1000 page textbook all on elliptic curves.
04:08
Deleted Account
That also means that verifying a signed tx in ETH requires som special cryptographic magic?...
Z
04:09
Zack
I think eth uses the same pubkey system as bitcoin, the difference is how they hash the pubkey to make their addresses.
04:10
And they express the address in hex instead of base 58
04:10
Deleted Account
i was thinking how can you go from a hash into getting a pubkey that could actually be used for verifying a tx
Z
04:11
Zack
Yes, for eth this strategy is more obviously secure. Since a hash isn't invertible
04:11
Deleted Account
Well i doubt the pubkey is invertible to a private key also
Z
04:11
Zack
We should probably do a hard update to make this one burn address unspendable.
Then we can continue using it as a burn address from now on.
MF
04:12
Mr Flintstone
We can soft fork it?
Z
04:12
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes, I am fairly confident that you can't generate a private key for this.
04:12
In reply to this message
Yes, this update would be a soft fork in its most natural implementation.
04:13
Since we are only censoring txs
04:13
I shouldn't have said "hard update"
04:14
Deleted Account
i can see my mining profitability dropped btw
MF
04:14
Mr Flintstone
makes sense
04:14
Deleted Account
around half at this point. just stating the expected
Z
04:16
Zack
It was only about a 1/3rd reduction in reward.

Economically speaking, the drop in profitability is <1/3rd, since some people will stop mining which will cause the difficulty to decrease.
04:17
Deleted Account
Well I cant measure it exactly from my fairly small park
MF
04:17
Mr Flintstone
diff has dropped slightly since the reward change
04:17
I think
04:19
amoveo.tools
Z
04:19
Zack
Looks like the difficulty dropped by about 5% so far.
Hashrate dropped a little more than that, so it might correct downwards further soon
04:19
Deleted Account
not by 1/3 yet I expect
Z
04:20
Zack
33% - 5% = ~28% drop in profitability of mining currently
04:20
Deleted Account
i dont care so much after i lost my faith in mining :-/
04:20
heh
Z
04:23
Zack
Also, the price is $86 today, vs ~$60 before the change.
Which means a 43% increase in profitability due to price change.
43 - 28 = ~15% overall increase in profitability since before we knew that the reward would decrease.
04:24
So in dollar terms, you should be even more profitable than a couple weeks ago
04:31
@potat_o you will be ready for the hard update at 36120?
OK
04:31
O K
In reply to this message
Do I have an option?
Z
04:32
Zack
If you are still unsure of the update, I can talk to you about exactly what it is doing.
04:32
I am confident that you would support this change, since it prevents attackers from printing veo from nothing
OK
04:33
O K
Of course I support the change in theory
04:33
What I don't have time for today is unexpected issues
04:33
But it sounds like I don't have an option
04:33
So I will make time
Z
04:34
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/commit/5baddf3d17fd91fdfedaf8673707433caa047a25
Here you can see the changes for this update
04:34
We add one more entry to forks.erl, for the height of the new fork.
04:35
We replace the Matches1 variable with the Matches2 variable in exactly 1 place in oracle_bet_tx.
04:37
Matches1 is all the unmatched orders to leave in the order book.
Matches2 is all the orders matched in the current batch. So we have to give shares in the oracle to the accounts who had these matched trades.

It doesn't make any sense that we were adding veo to the account's matched pile by summing up how many veo were still unmatched.

That is why we need to replace Matches1 with Matches2 in this one place.
04:38
@potat_o make sure to lower the reward in your mining pool so you don't over-pay miners.
OK
04:38
O K
In reply to this message
It's done, I need to fix the front end only
04:38
I'll make the switch back to Veo at the same time
Z
04:39
Zack
do you think I should switch the light wallet back as well?
OK
04:39
O K
I'm unfortunately very busy today with appointments from several weeks ago
04:39
That seems to be the way people are going, I'm just going with the flow
MF
04:39
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
seems that way
Z
04:40
Zack
Sorry for the trouble, I hope we will deliver an easier service as time goes on.
OK
04:40
O K
I'm glad it all seems to be working out
Z
04:41
Zack
If someone accidentally spends 1000x as much veo as they had intended, it would be bad.
This direction is more dangerous than the other.
MF
04:41
Mr Flintstone
right
04:42
good thing I think all light wallets in mveo format have the red text notifying people of mveo?
Z
04:42
Zack
I am thinking I should leave the old warnings up, but draw a line through them, and put more warnings underneath
04:42
or I could delete the warning, or turn it blue
OK
04:43
O K
Thankfully there aren't many people who would be able to make that mistake
Z
04:43
Zack
Only the most important investors
MF
04:43
Mr Flintstone
yeah
Z
04:43
Zack
if people did super micro payments it could matter, like if they were using the lightning payment tool in the light node
OK
04:44
O K
Put a checkbox below
04:44
"I confirm I understand I am sending VEO (1000 mveo)"
Z
04:44
Zack
We had lightning payments from day 1, I think they still haven't been used.
I wonder why I spent like 2 months building that before launch
MF
04:44
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
I like this idea
04:44
at least for some time
04:44
there is an additional step necessary to send veo that informs the sender what happened
04:45
better safe than sorry with this imo
Z
04:45
Zack
"Please type this on the line below, then click ok- 'I understand that I am spending 0.00013420 VEO (1.3420 mVEO)'"
MF
04:46
Mr Flintstone
I think that works, even if they copy paste
04:46
they will still read it
04:46
since it’s new
OK
04:46
O K
Can some charitable individual estimate the amount of time I have to make this update please
04:47
I'm running around like a chicken etc
Z
04:47
Zack
I think I am going to take the easy way out to save time, and just turn it blue. Hopefully someone else will make popup windows and donate the software
MF
04:47
Mr Flintstone
80 blocks I think
04:47
So 800 minutes or 13 hours
04:47
36120 is fork height right
Z
04:48
Zack
Well, it doesn't come into effect until someone makes an oracle_bet tx after 36120
OK
04:48
O K
Perfect thanks flinstone
04:48
That's plenty
MF
04:48
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
right
Z
04:52
Zack
I don't know how to contact xdpool.xyz, does anyone know how to contact them?
OK
04:55
O K
@ everyone in discord mining
Z
04:58
Zack
ok
OK
04:58
O K
Does it belong to bo
M
05:00
Mike
In reply to this message
Sort of like a check, yeah. I like this option
AK
05:20
A K
I'm a bit confused: why oracle creates veo from nothing, and not just redistribute committed UTXOs?
05:21
VEO should only be created by coinbase transactions, no?
MF
05:24
Mr Flintstone
veo doesn’t use utxo model
05:24
accounts based like eth
AK
05:35
A K
Damn life was so much simpler in 2009!
05:36
Ok maybe accounts based gives some flexibility which is beneficial for VEO
05:36
However errors like printing money of air scare me
Z
05:42
Zack
In reply to this message
you are correct.
The oracle had a bug which was not conserving the number of veo.
05:42
In reply to this message
yes, it is one of the worst kinds of bugs.
MF
05:55
Mr Flintstone
I wonder if it makes sense to do a rule that at least restricts veo received to be less than max historical block reward * block height
05:56
Just trying to think of ways we can invalidate inflation bugs
Z
05:56
Zack
so at block height 1000, the max reward would be about 1000 VEO? that is a very high limit
05:57
did you mean received in a spend tx?
OK
05:58
O K
I think he meant total limit, yes it is a high limit but, it's a limit
Z
05:59
Zack
total limit of what? in a spend tx? for a block reward? to put into a channel?
OK
05:59
O K
I'm not sure how it would work, or if it would be effective
06:00
At that point, some hyperinflation is inevitable anyway and it's already catastrophic
Z
06:01
Zack
I like Sy's strategy.
We should write more redundant information into the txs, like a checksum to simplify verification. And people besides me should write tools to scan the blocks and confirm that the account balances reported by the full nodes match.
MF
06:02
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
yeah
Z
06:02
Zack
A person could fill up a block with 600 spend txs
06:02
so if the amount they can spend is more than 1/600th of the market cap, then they can still spend the entire market cap in 1 block
06:03
oh, max block reward * block height is already bigger than the market cap
06:04
If someone counterfeits to double the number of coins, that is about equally as bad as someone who counterfeits to increase the number of coins 100 fold
06:04
In either case, I expect the community would decide that reverting history to delete the counterfeit coins is the answer
06:14
Deleted Account
Hi there, is there a way to set max temperature for the cards using PhamHuong VeoMiner?
MF
06:18
Mr Flintstone
yeah, that is true
06:19
In reply to this message
I think so, but there is a lot of short term economic damage that can be caused with this so I hope we can avoid it before it comes to this kind of solution
Z
06:55
Zack
catweed are you ready for the hard update in about 10 hours?
08:34
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
There's no external API change, right? If so I'm ready.
Z
08:35
Zack
if you run a full node, it needs to be updated or else it could get stuck at some height
08:44
Deleted Account
Veoscan does not rely on a specific node, but I updated my local node just now as well. Thanks for heads up.
Z
08:44
Zack
thats cool, thanks for the support catweed
08:45
the api is the same
08:45
Deleted Account
👍
IP
13:24
I P
catweed could you please add links to mining calculators from veopool and exantech to veoscan?
13:25
@Simon3456 does http://stats.veopool.pw use the updated block reward or the old one?
13:39
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Added here. https://veoscan.io/mining
exantech's website is in "Links" section.
IP
13:40
I P
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
👍, 39.1 KB
S
13:55
Sy
In reply to this message
What about Usingen actual speaking variable names? I mean seriously matches1 and 2? What is this? 1990?
Z
13:57
Zack
Yeah, a lot of variables have bad names, but at least these 2 have good comments explaining their meaning.

Matches2 should have never existed.
S
13:59
Sy
In reply to this message
Still the old one
13:59
I will implememt a variable there aswell
14:00
I still would like the coinbase to be added to the block aswell
IP
14:00
I P
In reply to this message
1970😘
14:00
In reply to this message
+1!
S
14:00
Sy
In reply to this message
I havent been around back then 😂
S
15:03
Sy
Xdpool will run out of money soon
15:03
Overpaying 33% right now
15:04
I messaged him yesterday, not answering...
IP
15:08
I P
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😁, 26.6 KB
Ярослав invited Ярослав
Я
17:13
Ярослав
what happened to the qtrade.io deposits ?
IP
17:14
I P
In reply to this message
they will re-enable soon
17:14
there was a bug with oracle, an update was issued, now it is fine
Я
17:15
Ярослав
In reply to this message
then just wait 👌
Tom Sol invited Tom Sol
7 October 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
8 October 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
08:26
I wrote about Numerai, a project that advertises itself as doing something that financial derivatives are usually used for.
08:32
Does anyone see anything I should change?
B
08:35
Ben
a reference to Numerai source would be good, but interesting read
Z
08:35
Zack
I think seeking out tech debates with people running tech startups can be a good advertisement strategy.
08:36
good idea Ben
M
11:06
MKUltra
I hate numerai
11:07
Original model was just full of holes to exploit their users
11:09
Or perhaps I’m just pissed/jealous I didn’t think of that way to exploit people first
Z
11:24
Zack
I am happy any time people are working on blockchain finance problems.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
AK
23:34
A K
Am examining https://amoveo.tools/
23:35
do I understand correctly than when EWAH reaches e.g. lower threshold,
23:35
target diff adjusts just so that current EWAH = new low threshold?
23:35
that is, target diff does not jump the whole range down so that target diff = EWAH?
23:36
23:36
looks so from the chart - am I reading correctly and is this by design?
9 October 2018
Z
00:55
Zack
Yes, you got it.
AK
01:03
A K
Thanks!
01:06
So any rational veo miner who is already mining should be adding hashrate to almost reach upper bound.
01:06
Wonder why it's not happening
DV
01:20
Denis Voskvitsov
hi guys, will someone of you attend Devcon4 in Prague at the end of October?
Z
01:33
Zack
In reply to this message
There is a lot of randomness involved.
Look how steady the hashrate on Veo pool is compared to how bouncy the EWAH is.

Also, graphics cards aren't a perfectly liquid asset. People who can mine now purchased them in the past.
Once you already have a card, it would be a waste not to use it.
MF
01:33
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
if you push the true hash rate above the target, the random walk will be more likely to increase the diff
AK
01:35
A K
That's what I'm saying, if you have some not mining amoveo and some mining, you should switch all to veo
Z
01:35
Zack
There is also the issue that miners can't cooperate to decide how much hashrate each one should take.
Good thing too. It is actually a basic security assumption that they cannot cooperate
AK
01:35
A K
IMO even with random walk there's still up to 10 ths capacity without compromising returns
Z
01:37
Zack
If we made an agreement to only take 1 th each, there is nothing stopping a miner from making more pubkeys to mine with, so no one knows that he is actually using 2 th.
01:46
Deleted Account
the rational miner doesnt exist
DV
01:48
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
> Look how steady the hashrate on Veo pool is compared to how bouncy the EWAH is.

it is averaged hashrate by last 24 hrs, so it should be more steady.
T
02:00
Tromp
Im a miner, mine basically because of free electricity and future upside potential
IP
02:01
I P
In reply to this message
wow free electricity is a big advantage
AK
02:01
A K
are you 100% in amoveo or mining smth else?
IP
02:01
I P
mine is 7 cents/kwh
AK
02:02
A K
7 usd cents?
IP
02:02
I P
yep
02:02
0.07$/kwh
AK
02:02
A K
bordering profitability for an S9.. GPU fare much better
T
02:02
Tromp
In reply to this message
100% veo
MF
02:02
Mr Flintstone
dat spec mine
AK
02:02
A K
so you’re a rational VEO miner ))
T
02:02
Tromp
In reply to this message
Venezuela=free electricity
02:03
In reply to this message
🍺🍺
IP
02:03
I P
In reply to this message
well, i would not move there anyways
MF
02:03
Mr Flintstone
if you are a miner and just want veo, doesn’t it make more sense to mine more profitable coins, then buy veo with the profits?
IP
02:03
I P
not the best place to be right now
T
02:03
Tromp
In reply to this message
Yeah, wouldnt recomend it 😂
AK
02:03
A K
In reply to this message
no offers IMO
IP
02:04
I P
In reply to this message
makes much more sense. hard to buy profitable coins
MF
02:04
Mr Flintstone
I guess you would need a fairly liquid market for both coins
T
02:04
Tromp
In reply to this message
Yeah, i have bought just hedging inflation now or in the future with some miners
AK
02:05
A K
but what is more profitable practically, ETH ? I think for Nvidia no. or is it some secret sauce?
MF
02:05
Mr Flintstone
probably some low cap pow coins out there that are more profitable than veo
02:05
I think veo is still more profitable than eth?
AK
02:05
A K
but then youll be paying spread on both coins
02:05
that hurts
MF
02:05
Mr Flintstone
Yep
02:05
need liquidity
T
02:06
Tromp
As long as veo stays under the radar i can keep accumulating
AK
02:06
A K
with same liquidity GPU coins should yield exact same return
T
02:06
Tromp
Im sure Zack is a great developer and this project has a nice future 🤙🏻
IP
02:06
I P
need market maker and arbitrage bots on veo on both exchanges but this needs big money to come in to veo to put it in market making
AK
02:06
A K
although practically some *do* mine BCH and ETC
IP
02:07
I P
btw guys what do you think of siacoin?
02:07
their prices for hosting files are very very low (much lower than dropbox, like 10 time), the catch is no very user friendly
AK
02:07
A K
i like their ASIC friendliness, but afair they’re now forking sooo not so friendly?
T
02:10
Tromp
Anyone has calculated the size of the adresable market for amoveo? By any chance
IP
02:10
I P
In reply to this message
trillions
T
02:11
Tromp
In reply to this message
Damn that might be decades away if it can happen 😂
M
02:14
Mike
Amoveo scales well for what it’s meant for
Z
02:16
Zack
In reply to this message
Individuals might not be rational. But if you consider the average behaviour of a community of people competing for the same business opportunities, over time it approaches a rational strategy.
AK
02:17
A K
Imo average should be strictly below optimum ))
02:17
Since we can't do better but can do worse
02:22
But yeah, a lot of mining shows that asymptotically it almost reaches that
MF
02:48
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
within an order of magnitude of the market value of derivatives across the world is what I think the addressable market is
02:48
so between 1 tn and 100 tn
02:49
this doesn’t account for any sov use at all
T
03:07
Tromp
Damn
AK
03:22
A K
if Veo gonna have smth like an RFC (BIP for Bitcoin, EIP for Ethereum)
03:22
it’s gonna be a VIP right?
Z
03:22
Zack
haha
AK
03:22
A K
:)
Z
03:23
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/issues/183
Is this VIP 183?
Or are VIP only for changes to the protocol, and it excludes 2nd level development?
AK
03:24
A K
not every github issue in BTC or EHT is linked to an *IP I think
03:24
good question when a public consultation is warranted
Deleted invited Deleted Account
C
04:55
CK
out of curiosity, have you guys tried getting Amoveo on CMC?
04:56
Deleted Account
could we create a long term market for climate change? any ideas?
04:57
i’d love all that free money from climate deniers...
Z
04:58
Zack
long term markets don't work well on Amoveo.
No one wants to run a server where the cost of having a channel open is so low.
04:58
In reply to this message
I haven't.
M
04:59
Mike
In reply to this message
It was supposed to be. Something came up with qtrade that kept them from listing
TG
05:01
Toby Ganger
that’s weird…i know it’s on other market cap sites…do you know what the issue was?
M
05:02
Mike
In reply to this message
They don’t want to do the leg work to get the API to work. Qtrade only shows the order book on Blockfolio.
05:02
So there must be more to it than I’ve seen; should’ve been quick imo
TG
05:03
Toby Ganger
that’s weird
MF
05:03
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
who is they? qtrade or cmc
TG
05:03
Toby Ganger
such an odd thing to spend all the time to build a site and then not take one tiny step further to make the api work
MF
05:03
Mr Flintstone
qtrade I assume
M
05:03
Mike
In reply to this message
CMC
MF
05:03
Mr Flintstone
o
M
05:04
Mike
I guess it could be on qtrade’s end. I prefer VEO being off cmc personally
05:04
But Blockfolio has some Qtrade api that works sorta
MF
05:05
Mr Flintstone
The thing about cmc is that they “define” the trade ticker VEO
05:05
wouldn’t be ideal for another coin to be veo On cmc
Z
05:36
Zack
It seems to me that any introduction to Amoveo needs to have at least these 4 steps:
1) financial derivatives are a big part of the economy.
2) blockchains are better suited platforms for financial derivatives in comparison to centralized institutions.
3) Amoveo has what it takes to be a global financial derivatives platform.
4) Reasons why Amoveo is ethically good technology.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
07:10
Mr Flintstone
@Simon3456 @potat_o are we still dealing with dropped tx issue?
OK
09:12
O K
In reply to this message
Issue came back for a period around updates and appears to maybe have subsided, I can keep you posted
13:25
Deleted Account
there's 1 eth reward for submiting most accurate infomation in gate.io listing form https://www.gateio.io/listrequest
13:27
they also list coins for free.
13:28
that was what they claimed
S
13:34
Sy
In reply to this message
my most recent one was on block 35991, before that 35700 when my payout script and node acted up
DY
15:52
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Yess
KL
17:42
Karlis L
hey guys, is it "by design" that TXs with type "delete_acc" show 0 amount? i was checking out the top holders and noticed that most of TXs for this key are "deleted" and show 0, although they clearly transferred decent amounts. https://veoscan.io/account/BPZ48brPxbAM%252BC6zBvkSOCQ48koKE5xwgw2%252BnoYXO3HtOf5wCax8caP5BLW4L0hlKMvLpoPFjY3YSkddUVBkMfU%253D
18:45
Deleted Account
Yes, delete_acc_tx has only {from, nonce, fee, to} elements in record.
To avoid confusion, I changed Veoscan to show nothing when the tx amount is non-existent.
KL
18:49
Karlis L
correct me if i am wrong, but those transactions most likely originally had non-zero Amounts. otherwise the Balance of that key does not sum up...maybe the "spend" transactions changed into "delete_acc" after that acc got deleted or smth like that?
18:51
Deleted Account
The balance is moved from deleted account to another account of course, but it does not appear in api response and processed internally. There's no another spend tx I think.
I'm not sure if it's a good design.
KL
18:52
Karlis L
ah, ok thanks.
S
18:59
Sy
the problem is that the block is created before its actually found but delete_account is executed when the block is found so the block cant include that value since it might have changed inbetween and funds would be lost
18:59
another race condition with mining against potential block
19:01
Deleted Account
i see, thanks for clarification.
S
19:04
Sy
i still think it would be benefical to mine against topblock and create the next block with 0 confirms like the other blockchains ive mined with, it solves a number of problems / compromises we face right now
10 October 2018
Z
00:39
Zack
In reply to this message
Not clear what you mean. Maybe we need a hard update to change some behavior.

Are you saying that the merkel root of a header should be the state of the blockchain after processing the previous block's txs, not the current block's txs?
S
01:30
Sy
Wouldnt it result in the same proof just one block later?
01:31
But i dont think thats what i mean, im talking about mining_data, the merkle should be unaffected by this
Z
01:31
Zack
yes, if we did it that way then you would need to wait 1 more confirmation until you could get a merkle proof of the new data
S
01:32
Sy
The block content is still the same, you mine vs last block hash, not potential one
Z
01:32
Zack
oh, right.
the information written in the previous block can't be easily changed, which would make mining data easier to deal with
S
01:32
Sy
Not sure about the merkle stuff, sorry
01:32
I only know the miners side 😅
01:33
But if you mine vs last hash you only have to run potential block on actual block find and just use current timestamp, current txs, pull all needed Data, done
01:34
No need to regenerate it over and over,
Z
01:34
Zack
right now we are using potential_block for 2 tasks, and with your strategy we could split them up.

1) We use potential_block to keep track of the state of the blockchain after processing all the txs in the tx pool, that way we can quickly know if a new tx is valid.
2) we use potential_block to keep track of the problem that miners are working on.
S
01:34
Sy
So mining data wont Change between blocks
Z
01:35
Zack
I think that you can achieve the same goal by making the update period on potential block be like 1 hour or longer.
Then you only attempt to add txs to potential block when the previous potential block becomes invalid.
01:36
potential_block refresh period. by default it is 60 seconds.
S
01:36
Sy
Correct but it still doesnt solve the fact that you cant add amounts to certain tx types since the value can change between generate and save
Z
01:36
Zack
I should move this into the config file so it is easy to control
S
01:36
Sy
Plus the timestamp could be up to one hour off
Z
01:37
Zack
the timestamp would have to be greater than the previous block's timestamp.
S
01:37
Sy
Its less complicated to generate the block on find, not in advance
Z
01:38
Zack
the average block time doesn't really change, even if individual blocks have earlier or later timestamps.
S
01:38
Sy
Less race conditions
01:38
I know
01:38
There is a reason my timestamps are always off 😎
OK
01:38
O K
If generating the block in advance is better, why doesn't bitcoin do it that way?
Z
01:38
Zack
I am not sure what you mean by "generate on find"
OK
01:38
O K
"like bitcoin does"
Z
01:38
Zack
I also don't know what "generate in advance" could mean
OK
01:39
O K
"like amoveo does"
S
01:39
Sy
There is no benefit in working vs potential block
Z
01:39
Zack
I wrote Amoveo POW to work the same as Bitcoin, maybe my understanding of bitcoin is wrong
S
01:39
Sy
Its just a construct you thought necessary but thats not how btc does it
Z
01:39
Zack
In reply to this message
would this really give us the ability to add amounts to certain txs?
S
01:40
Sy
Sure
01:40
Sorry im on my phone in the living room watching the kids, typing ist hard 😂
Z
01:40
Zack
editing a tx would make the signature invalid, so it would be separate data stored in the block along with the txs.
01:41
it seems to me that you can generate this separate data just as well whether the merkel root of the state includes the txs of the most recent block or not.
01:41
After all, this new data you want to store in a block is all computed as part of processing the block.
S
01:42
Sy
I have to delay this until im back at my pc
Z
01:42
Zack
no worries
01:45
We already store a bunch of merkel proofs with each block. It seems to me that you could find out all this information you are interested in by reading the merkel proofs.

For example, if someone wanted to do a delete_acc_tx, they need to include in that block a merkel proof of the account's balance before it gets deleted.
S
01:51
Sy
And you get the amount how?
01:51
External i mean, not the node
01:51
We all know the node isnt perfect and does mistakes
Z
02:08
Zack
this external computer is already downloading the entire block right?
That block comes with all the merkel proofs you need to be able to verify the block.
blocks.proofs has the list of proofs. it is the 13th element of the block object.
So look through them to find the account you are interested in.

This page shows the number value code for each kind of proof. Accounts have code 1.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/chain/proofs.erl
02:09
here is an example of a proof from a recent block:
{proof,1,
               <<0,177,59,88,204,241,0,0,0,4,189,...>>,
               <<255,65,66,70,208,22,31,22,185,166,...>>,
               <<4,189,18,206,25,5,24,85,181,...>>,
               [{<<0,0,0,0,0,0,...>>,
                 <<0,0,0,0,0,...>>,
                 <<0,0,0,0,...>>,
                 <<0,0,0,...>>,
                 <<0,0,...>>,
                 <<0,...>>,
                 <<...>>,...},
                {<<23,92,88,248,13,...>>,
                 <<106,100,169,6,...>>,
                 <<0,0,0,...>>,
                 <<0,0,...>>,
                 <<157,...>>,
                 <<...>>,...},
                {<<137,98,18,40,...>>,
                 <<190,3,172,...>>,
                 <<"\vë0"...>>,
                 <<17,...>>,
                 <<...>>,...},
                {<<"Âá}âï»qîèh"...>>,<<"Þr gÍ"...>>,<<"§ \\+"...>>,
                 <<...>>,...}]},
S
02:11
Sy
Readable pls 😂
Z
02:11
Zack
<<255,65,66,70,208,22,31,22,185,166,...>>
This is the line of the proof you are interested in, it is the serialized account information, which includes the balance
02:11
proofs.erl explains the format of this proof record
02:14
first 6 bytes are the balance
02:14
hmm... but that can't be right. no balance is 255,65,66,70,208. that is bigger than the market cap of satoshis.
S
02:15
Sy
Keep digging
Z
02:20
Zack 
[{proof,1,
               <<0,1,137,240,114,52,0,62,50,4,47,52,160,111,196,1,122,35,
                 184,176,163,34,52,38,33,8,19,191,220,7,177,200,2,113,
                 193,50,226,174,209,217,92,26,147,104,143,110,180,219,
                 214,27,96,84,229,62,54,48,161,199,25,142,120,216,148,36,
                 204,84,68,250,148,17,102,118,151,55,186,65,96,154,51,
                 225,117,23,164,109,252,181,120,226,248,165,254,232,63,
                 27,152,175,204,149,140,247,199,87,17,82,167,38>>,
               <<118,101,48,144,94,146,200,138,188,144,165,23,179,40,245,
                 24,71,241,76,142,91,246,30,45,185,123,219,229,88,23,88,
                 127>>,
               <<4,47,52,160,111,196,1,122,35,184,176,163,34,52,38,33,8,
                 19,191,220,7,177,200,2,113,193,50,226,174,209,217,92,26,
                 147,104,143,110,180,219,214,27,96,84,229,62,54,48,161,
                 199,25,142,120,216,148,36,204,84,68,250,148,17,102,118,
                 151,55>>,

I miscounted to 2.
The line that encodes the account starts with <<0,1,137,240,114,52
Which starts with 0,1 so it is small enough to be a balance.
02:23
the line that starts with <<4,47,52 has 65 bytes.
It is a pubkey. if you encode it base64, it would look like a pubkey in the light node.
02:25
the pubkey is embedded in the serialized account data too.
02:26
For security reasons, you really should do all the light node stuff. finding the longest chain of headers, verifying that the block matches a recent header, verifying that the merkel proof matches the data in the block.
DV
03:44
Denis Voskvitsov
a sneak peek into the new update :)
DV
03:44
Denis Voskvitsov
DV
Denis Voskvitsov 10.10.2018 03:43:25
M
03:44
Mike
😍 nice
Z
03:44
Zack
very cool
M
03:45
Mike
In reply to this message
Ledger right? Might have to get one
AS
03:45
Aizen Sou
Holy shit, Denis
DV
03:45
Denis Voskvitsov
we'll be able to connect ledger right into web wallet and upcoming apps too
T
03:46
Tromp
Nicee
03:49
Deleted Account
omg
OK
03:50
O K
Wow
Maxim invited Maxim
AK
03:55
A K
I hope it's your privkey in the background !
03:55
Also: supernice!
DV
03:56
Denis Voskvitsov
sry, just public
I'll add a backdoor to show you a private key lol
S
04:01
Sy
very nice
MF
04:01
Mr Flintstone
amazing
05:02
Deleted Account
great work @denis_voskvitsov
IP
05:02
I P
wow great work молодец, от души
B
05:55
Ben
boner incoming :P
MF
06:00
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
do you mean you guys are building the upcoming apps? Or just this would be ready for upcoming apps in general
DV
06:00
Denis Voskvitsov
we're going to release wallet apps under the different platforms at least
MF
06:01
Mr Flintstone
ohhh
06:01
thanks
06:01
that’s awesome
06:37
Deleted Account
Great
A
06:45
Aries
Some celestial event. No - no words. No words to describe it. Poetry! They should have sent a poet. So beautiful. So beautiful... I had no idea.
06:45
OK
06:52
O K
🌟
Deleted joined group by link from Group
KELDISH invited KELDISH
Кофе invited Кофе
A
13:40
Aries
Welcome!!!
J
14:19
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
In reply to this message
oh wow 😍
I?
17:44
IMPLENIA - Crypto Fund 🇸🇨 🇨🇭
where can I buy VEO?
AK
17:46
Alex K
qtrade.io
Andrew invited Andrew
18:59
Deleted Account
Zack @potat_o @Simon3456 There’s a lot of back and forth, and Im not sure if you guys came up with a common understanding; so I’ll try to phrase what I think we want: The seed for the POW is only dependent on the hash of the previous block. When the pow has been found, a new block is assembled with any TX waiting in the pool, and merkle trees are included accordingly
18:59
This is a «medium» deal for me also as my mining pool has long latency networking
19:00
I think the big benefit would be to simplify mining pools as you dont need to update the miners any time you receive a tx, or want to update the timestamp of the block
19:01
So in short: get rid if potential blocks, and generate the final block only when pow has been found
19:02
Disclaimer: Im not sure if this is a good idea though
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☣︎Ðεη Ð☮฿ℝẎ☣︎ invited ☣︎Ðεη Ð☮฿ℝẎ☣︎
☣Ð
19:42
☣︎Ðεη Ð☮฿ℝẎ☣︎
19:42
Hello! it's your ?
Z
19:49
Zack
In reply to this message
If the seed only depends on the previous block, then the txs in the current block could get changed.

We do not change the work every time a tx is published. There is a timer. you only change the work if a block is found or of your timer resets.

Just make the timer in potential_block.erl be 40 minutes.
19:49
In reply to this message
Not me.
Nik invited Nik
Nik invited Denis
Nik invited Nikolai
Nik invited Deleted Account
MF
19:57
Mr Flintstone
hello everyone
AK
19:57
A K
Joining guyz, where are you from? :) Hi!
MF
19:59
Mr Flintstone
diff is down pretty significantly
I?
20:00
IMPLENIA - Crypto Fund 🇸🇨 🇨🇭
In reply to this message
1 VEO = 79€ ?
AK
20:01
Alex K
In reply to this message
Yep
20:01
In reply to this message
https://veoscan.io/
I?
20:03
IMPLENIA - Crypto Fund 🇸🇨 🇨🇭
In reply to this message
Why? How can VEO be used?
AK
20:04
A K
if I'd say 1 mveo is 0.08 EUR would it help? cheap! %)
Z
20:04
Zack
In reply to this message
Diff down more than 50% in the last week, and the price is up.
Mining got much more profitable.
20:04
I wonder why
I?
20:06
IMPLENIA - Crypto Fund 🇸🇨 🇨🇭
In reply to this message
No. How can VEO be used?
Z
20:08
Zack
In reply to this message
Veo is for financial derivative type contracts.
Prediction markets, stuff like that.
You can learn more here: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
AK
20:09
A K
An Augur, Aeternity competitor with literally 1/100 market cap, working mainnet, no ICO, great community.
20:09
that's my reasons why I'm here
20:10
also the addressable market and problem are very much close to my area of expertise, hence I love it
20:12
In reply to this message
price on qtrade/amoveox is meaningless almost, not even close to 100 VEO Traded daily.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
20:28
Sy
In reply to this message
current block = topblock or potential block?
20:29
In reply to this message
you forget that reward got reduced by 33% but overall it should still be in the positive
IP
20:29
I P
In reply to this message
i think many new people because i shilled in russian ico community
AK
20:30
A K
In reply to this message
naughty you ))
IP
20:30
I P
well i figured better people put money in something good like veo and not another semiscam asian ico
Artem invited Artem
MF
20:48
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
maybe hash rate migrating to some other gpu mineable low cap pow coins, since some have been pumping
IP
20:49
I P
In reply to this message
block reward got cut by 35% so some miners switched off
AK
20:49
A K
diff went down just recently
20:49
probably they still haven't figured out
20:49
they spend less time on VEO than we do )))
20:50
plus I think xdpool.xyz specifically vanished
20:50
their hashrate went almost to 0
Z
20:55
Zack
In reply to this message
In that context, "current block" can be any block N. And previous block is block N-1.
IP
21:36
I P
In reply to this message
could be they forgot to update node software?
MF
21:46
Mr Flintstone
they would only have forked if there was oracle bet
21:46
I think
Z
22:11
Zack
How about a short story where the main characters are blockchains as humans arguing about philosophy.

Bitcoin could talk about the petro dollar, fractional reserve banking, and quantitative easing.
Revolution by preventing counterfeiting.

Bitcoin cash would mostly agree with bitcoin, but instead of using economic reasoning, bitcoin cash is religiously worshipping satoshi. He thinks that lightning is against the plan of almighty satoshi. Revolution by devotion to satoshi's plan.

Bitcoin hivemind could talk about detecting lies and corruption in politics to build a more perfect government and legal system. Revolution by honesty.

Amoveo would talk about insured crowd funding contracts to replace taxation, futarchy contracts to replace leadership. Giant businesses and governments all collapsing at the same time. Revolution by stopping the hierarchies.

Ethereum would be admitting how hard it is to plan for the future. Saying it is better to keep an open mind and be prepared to react quickly to whatever may happen. It is bad to devote yourself to any mission, because then you will have enemies who dislike your mission.

Tendermint is everyone's friend. His dream is to help everyone else achieve their dreams by connecting them together and encouraging collaboration. He gets too excited about everyone's ideas and supports them all.

Ripple is Wells Fargo in a disguise. He says "blockchain" or "cryptocurrency" in every sentence, but it seems like he doesn't actually know what a blockchain is. He uses his influence from the banking world to make ripple seem popular.

Augur is always following bitcoin hivemind around and copying what it says, but augur doesn't completely understand, so sometimes the words get mixed up.
22:13
In reply to this message
Someone messaged me on discord saying that they control that mining pool, and they did update already.
G
22:14
Gregor
In reply to this message
Animation
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22:14
🙂
S
22:24
Sy
xdpool turned off duo block reward, he told me
22:24
tbh im really not sure why, zack is correct, overall revenue went up by 10-20%
OK
22:24
O K
In reply to this message
What are you talking about
S
22:24
Sy
diff down, value up, reward down -> still positive
OK
22:24
O K
Mining pools are directly affected by block reward
S
22:24
Sy
when the diff drops by almost 50%
22:24
you negate block reward easily
OK
22:24
O K
The price went up before the reward went down
Z
22:25
Zack
Maybe some opportunity came up on some altchain
OK
22:25
O K
In reply to this message
This affects miners
22:25
Not mining pools
22:25
Who take a fixed cut of the block reward
S
22:25
Sy
he didnt pay out anyway
22:25
it was a private pool
Z
22:25
Zack
I think xdpool.xyz might have been just one person controlling a big farm
S
22:25
Sy
yes
22:26
the pools earn less, thats true but the miners are leaving aswell
22:26
i lost 10 TH
22:26
and they sure aint running at yours @potat_o 😝
22:27
28 minutes no block, diff might drop again
22:27
although i just checked, some hashrate is back, guess his farm just had some troubles
Z
22:45
Zack
This is the lowest hashrate we have had in over 2 months
IP
23:01
I P
guys, for some reason amoveobook is kind of empty right now
can we get more markets going on there?
23:21
Deleted Account
i can see no clear correlation between veo price and the mining diff oracle. im not saying there is none, but i dont think anyone should state any correlation as a fact
IP
23:22
I P
In reply to this message
well i can say for sure after that mining diff oracle went through a lot of my friends became much more interested in veo and buying veo
23:22
as they see it bottomed AND inflation decreased
OK
23:23
O K
In reply to this message
This is a nice anecdote, but there's still not much data to support this
IP
23:24
I P
well sure, buying pressure takes time to build up
MF
23:38
Mr Flintstone
it seems pretty clear to me that around when 600 veo was bet on the decrease in block reward that the price started to recover on qtrade and amoveo.exchange
23:39
obvs correlation does not equal causation, but we do have clear logic that less supply is better for the price
OK
23:39
O K
In reply to this message
We could go back in time and assume other correlations are causal too, we could get really silly with it
IP
23:40
I P
In reply to this message
yep, price movement always anticipates
23:43
Deleted Account
The problem I think, is that by driving away miners we are choking veo long term. I have said this too many times. So now lets just focus on things to come
23:44
Price is dependent on psycology. You could invent any reason that people believe in, and the price would react
23:44
Something like the Placebo effect
AK
23:45
A K
Zack assumes (and I agree) that for network security Veo needs ASICs
23:45
currently it''s irrelevant whether it has 20 th/s or 200ths/
23:45
still pennies wrt ETH
23:46
and attackable
OK
23:46
O K
I believe he's suggesting, and if so I agree, that miners are a part of the marketing team, so to speak
IP
23:50
I P
In reply to this message
yes! that is true. need veo-specific asics for real security
OK
23:51
O K
You also need mining pool decentralization
IP
23:51
I P
In reply to this message
lets decentralize veopool 😂😂
OK
23:52
O K
Well, like AK said, we aren't too concerned about security are we
MF
23:57
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
yeah
11 October 2018
IP
00:00
I P
In reply to this message
miner marketing worked for btc but with current state of crypto does not work now
00:00
you need people really dedicated to marketing to pull through among so many overmarketed and overhyped shitcoins and icos
Z
00:17
Zack
In reply to this message
Over paying miners is probably less efficient for advertising than almost any other strategy of spending the same amount of money.
OK
00:18
O K
In reply to this message
Proof of Advertising, sounds revolutionary zack you should write it up
IP
00:18
I P
In reply to this message
yep, true
00:19
also i think some old miners could switch some hashing power to other coins to try them out. i've temporarily switched part of hashing to verus and loki just to grab a bag but i will return back
Z
00:20
Zack
I recommend mining the most profitable blockchain, and dumping all those tokens to buy Veo.
00:23
I've been thinking of setting up a mining pool that mines on some other blockchain, but the rewards it pays out are all Veo.

Would any miners use this? Assuming it pays more than mining on amoveo directly.
OK
00:23
O K
In reply to this message
It's a good idea, but I doubt you have time to do this properly
00:24
There are entire enterprises dedicated to that kind of thing
Z
00:26
Zack
I'm pretty good at security. Maybe if I had hashrate on some competitor, I could use some exploit to make extra profit, and then pay the miners 150% of what they would get in any other pool from the same blockchain.
00:26
I could even use leading loss for rapid growth to get enough hashrate to bootstrap the process
OK
00:26
O K
The arb research process alone is a full time job
Z
00:28
Zack
Normal mining pools are competing for thin margins.
If I could get significantly better returns using an exploit, then the time consuming optimizations wouldn't matter.
B
00:29
Ben
in current market envirment asics don't solve problems they create new one
OK
00:29
O K
It's not about mining pools, you're going to have to find profitable coins to mine, which means you're competing with *miners* who do this for a living
B
00:29
Ben
most coins with asics are more centralized then coins without asics
Z
00:30
Zack
Profitable is good, but I think I would focus on exploitable.

This would probably only work with gpu mine able blockchains.
B
00:30
Ben
because huge farms buy huge parts of the asics supply
OK
00:30
O K
In reply to this message
What are you going to exploit? What you're describing, you're still competing with miners because they do this too
00:30
You can catch temporary breaks, but it's a constantly changing environment
00:31
Which is why the process is full time
00:31
You think you're going to find one exploit and just let it ride forever?
Z
00:31
Zack
Maybe I need to team up with someone for this project
OK
00:31
O K
In reply to this message
Yeah good idea, you should be teaming up with people in general
Z
00:31
Zack
With a good exploit you can earn a lot of money in a day
OK
00:31
O K
Sounds like you've got a new venture, should we hire someone else to work on the amoveo stuff?
Z
00:32
Zack
A lot of interesting exploits require at least a small fraction of the hash power
00:35
If I did an exploit and used the profit to buy a million dollars of Veo, not only would it be good advertising, it would directly help the price, and it would give me more Veo to participate in contracts.
AK
00:36
A K
In reply to this message
dat always gonna be the case IMO
00:37
existing wealth is concentrated
00:37
cryptos are doing an amazin job creating new riches, but I don't think anything more is possible
00:38
1% will always be able to buy more hashpower than regular Joe, by definition
00:38
and wealth always tends to attract more wealth, so power law distribution or even worse
MF
00:48
Mr Flintstone
imo risks of asic r&d centralization decrease over time. information wants to be free. Whereas unless you’re the biggest or second biggest gpu coin, the risk of 51% attack does not go away over time and it probably increases
maksim invited maksim
IP
01:07
I P
In reply to this message
Well would be cool but hard to do
01:14
In reply to this message
I say exploit crapchains
OK
01:14
O K
That's fine and everything, but we need someone working on amoveo full time
01:14
a team, really
IP
01:15
I P
Bytecoin and verge are amongst the most shit bugged chains with high marketcap
M
01:17
Mike
In reply to this message
I don’t think we’ll find someone who will not drag Zack down.
S
01:27
Sy
In reply to this message
Seems like your moral compass is broken once again

In what world is exploiting others good advertisment for a non criminal organisation?!
OK
01:30
O K
In reply to this message
Lol what?
01:30
Not exactly a glowing endorsement
Z
01:30
Zack
Everyone in this chat is part of the dream team
M
01:31
Mike
In reply to this message
Do I have the double negative backwards, haha
OK
01:32
O K
I think you got it right
M
01:32
Mike
Does anyone get messages and notifications twice for this group?
Z
01:33
Zack
In reply to this message
Ethics are an important consideration.
OK
01:33
O K
In reply to this message
Depending on OS and telegram build, yes
Z
01:33
Zack
In reply to this message
I turn notifications off most of the time. Maybe you can turn one of the two off.
M
01:34
Mike
In reply to this message
Yeah I had them off for a while when Amoveo was the fad. Now that it’s basically core people I wanna see what everyone says 😜
Z
01:35
Zack
From an ethical standpoint, it is better to have many small attacks, so the network can get strong, instead of one big attack that destroys excess value.
Similar to wild fires.

Basically we would be doing controlled burns to lower the damage from more exploits in the future.
01:36
What if I take all the profit from an exploit, use it all to buy Veo, and then burn all that Veo.
Then no one is profiting from the exploit, and it would have an even better effect in the Veo price
OK
01:37
O K
In reply to this message
Great, but who's going to be working on amoveo during that time
Z
01:37
Zack
If this happens to be the most efficient way for me to make amoveo grow, then this _is_ work on amoveo
OK
01:39
O K
Someone gets paid very well, presumably to actually add fundamental value to amoveo https://veoscan.io/account/BL0SzhkFGFW1kTTdnO8sGnwPEzUvx2U2nyECwWmUJPRhLxbPPK%252Bep8eYMxlTxVO%252FwnQS5WmsGIKcrPP7%252FFw1WVc%253D
01:40
It'd be awfully silly to pay someone to exploit other coins (destructive behaviour) all the meanwhile amoveo is historically exploitable
Z
01:40
Zack
We have learned about so many kinds of security flaws while building Amoveo, using this knowledge to profit the community seems like it is good for Amoveo
OK
01:41
O K
If you can make a million USD in a short time doing exploits and buying (and not burning) amoveo, that sounds like much better use of your time then making only $600,000 in less than a year
01:42
Maybe we can use those funds on development and improving amoveo fundamentals
Z
01:42
Zack
opportunities aren't always available. I am not so good at reading C++/Java/Golang/Rust
01:43
Deleted Account
Please @zack dont waste time breaking other blockchains. Other blockchains are your friends. And, tbh, your mining pool was not that good compared to other pools i used (all of them). So if you want to forget this fast, estimate the time required to match eg nanopools web page
Z
01:44
Zack
a user interface is important when pools are competing for thin margins.
If I can pay 50% more than anyone else, I think most miners will be willing to overlook the UI.
01:44
Deleted Account
No offence. we need at least one guy fully committed to amoveo, or someone will eat your/our cake
OK
01:44
O K
There is no shortcut to creating fundamental value, building
01:44
We can focus on the supply side forever and it will be a long painful death
01:45
Deleted Account
(y)
OK
01:45
O K
Critics have been fairly unified in their observations of where amoveo is lacking
MF
01:49
Mr Flintstone
I definitely don’t think taking other people’s value via exploitation is good advertising for amoveo or is ethical
01:49
Deleted Account
I think the new market is a good move, but usability is necessary if you want to get the masses involved
OK
01:49
O K
UX, all day
MF
01:49
Mr Flintstone
if someone has a bunch of gold in their house but they left the door unlocked it isn’t ok to take it
Z
01:51
Zack
If someone is playing a PVP video game, there is nothing unethical about killing their avatar to take their weapons and armor
MF
01:52
Mr Flintstone
right, but it is unethical to exploit a bug in the games code to take their shit
OK
01:52
O K via @gif
In reply to this message
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
267.7 KB
MF
01:52
Mr Flintstone
the code is an implementation of a social agreement
01:52
the code can have bugs but the agreement doesn’t
Z
01:53
Zack
sometimes exploits become normal user behavior. like wave-dashing in super smash bros melee.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
A
01:54
Aries
Gangsta
01:54
Deleted Account
As using mining for distribution is so out of fashion, I’ll repeat my excellent distribution idea: hand out free vouchers that may only be used to place bets in markets
Z
01:54
Zack
Finance and war have gone hand in hand for a long time.
There is ethics that go with war, but they are different from non-war ethics.
01:55
Deleted Account
The veo is printed from a new reward after forking
A
01:55
Aries
01:55
01:56
We need some Zack Snacks
OK
01:56
O K
In reply to this message
😂
A
01:57
Aries
In reply to this message
Agreed
01:57
Deleted Account
If you want to be famos for being bad, please emulate wikileaks rather than a thug...
01:59
I can promise you that anyone coming from outside amoveo who is able to cash in such a voucher would not think it was money for free
OK
02:00
O K
In reply to this message
Where do the vouchers come from?
Z
02:00
Zack
I am completely opposed to vouchers, airdrops, or anything like that.
02:00
Deleted Account
right now I think we have zero running markets. we should have a goal to have a few active markets at all times, and the number should increase every few months
OK
02:00
O K
In reply to this message
Arguably a fixed dev reward is "like that" in the eyes of many. If amoveo had a consistent philosophy, we would pay you with dominant assurance contracts
Z
02:01
Zack
In reply to this message
yes, I should probably get DAC working soon
OK
02:02
O K
Don't take that to mean we should pay you with DACs on top of your salary
Z
02:04
Zack
The dev reward is wasteful the same way an airdrop is.
We have planned on switching to dominant assurance contracts since the beginning, but it still hasn't happened.

Once scalar markets are working, then I will focus on DAC to be the 4th smart contract on Amoveo.
OK
02:05
O K
Z
02:05
Zack
In reply to this message
looks like you still haven't pulled that fix to txs
02:05
I think we fixed it yesterday
OK
02:06
O K
Who is "we"?
02:06
My last clone was less than 24 hours ago
02:06
Deleted Account
Distributing vouchers is hard. But if we all just collect veo like squirrels, veo will not gain value, because new users dont want to feel that the early users had an unfair advantage
MF
02:06
Mr Flintstone
one thing I love about this community is that there is no such thing as an off-limits topic for discussion
Z
02:06
Zack
Sy helped me find the bug. we went through the error log on his machine together.
OK
02:06
O K
Just after you fixed two typos
02:06
The fatal typos
Z
02:07
Zack
yeah, it is pretty emberrassing I inserted those two typos. I am surprised the network even ran, and the tests still passed.
MF
02:08
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
lightning payment is one of these contracts I assume
OK
02:08
O K
This is not the first time the tests have proven inadequate
Z
02:09
Zack
In reply to this message
so far we have lightning payments and binary derivatives
02:11
In reply to this message
Even if we had perfect tests, I don't think it is possible to prove that they are perfect.
OK
02:11
O K
02:11
It's up to date now
02:11
In reply to this message
A testnet mirrored after the mainnet with distributed participants on different versions of the code would be less imperfect
Z
02:12
Zack
yes, more tests or a testnet would be nice upgrades for the network
02:13
In reply to this message
I guess that message didn't relate to the typo.
Maybe I just uncommented a print statment or something. ill check.
OK
02:13
O K
and seems 'invalid header without enough work' is missing a newline
Z
02:14
Zack
that message appears if it takes more than 1000 miliseconds to process a tx
02:14
yes, you are right
02:15
oh, only 200 miliseconds per tx
OK
02:15
O K
In reply to this message
For which message?
Z
02:15
Zack
"dropped a tx"
OK
02:15
O K
Whose tx
02:16
Received from the network?
Z
02:16
Zack
it seems like your node attempts to download a big batch of txs from your peers?
or maybe it is trying to download the same tx over and over, but it keeps taking longer than 200 miliseconds to process
02:17
I had expected that the "dropped a tx" message would only appear with smart contract txs that have contracts so long they can't process in 200 miliseconds
OK
02:17
O K
I know others have mentioned same symptoms in full-node-operations
02:17
In reply to this message
How useful is the message? It doesn't indicate what transaction was dropped
Z
02:18
Zack
processing txs doesn't look at the hard drive it is completely in ram.
it probably takes less than 1 milisecond for a typical tx.
02:18
In reply to this message
it is useful to us right now in that we realized that something is working wrong.
02:19
it is only a little broken, so everything is still working correctly. But it is important to fix all the times it breaks a little bit, otherwise all the small mistakes can compound to make a big mistake.
02:19
I guess I will make this print statment more detailed, so we can know which tx failed.
S
02:22
Sy
is the tx outputted somewhere?
02:22
in crash or testnet log?
02:22
would probably help if you can see what tx is being dropped
Z
02:22
Zack
currently no, I am adding that now.
S
02:22
Sy
cheers
Z
02:23
Zack
maybe the thread processing the tx crashed, which from the perspective of the tx_pool_feeder looks the same as if it is taking too long to process
S
02:24
Sy
i am sure some of us can host testnet nodes so we can build a proper network....
Z
02:24
Zack
maybe this happens if your node is not synced with the network, and your node tries to download all the txs in the tx pool, but they all crash since they are in the future and aren't valid in the past
S
02:24
Sy
na it has nothing to do with his node, i got that one aswell
OK
02:24
O K
Lol my node is synced
Z
02:25
Zack
I thought the messages only happened when you first booted up the node. do they keep happening regularly?
OK
02:25
O K
All day
02:25
Surprised they don't happen to you
Z
02:25
Zack
maybe someone else has a node that is stuck back in time, and it keeps sending you txs from the past, and all those txs crash since they are from the past
S
02:26
Sy
i THINK this started when i tried to close the oracle 10 blocks early
02:26
is it possible that the tx gets droppped but not deleted?
02:27
but still, better logging is needed ;)
Z
02:27
Zack
if it is caused by txs from the past, possibly an oracle tx that sy made, then we should probably add another check to make tx processing faster.
First check the nonces, and drop any txs with old nonces.
OK
02:28
O K
In reply to this message
And better testing, the tests should assume that other people are using old software
S
02:28
Sy
thats why i suggested we build a testnet so you actually got different versions of the node plus internet latency
Z
02:31
Zack
make local-quick a testnet, but no one is running a server for it.
02:32
make multi-quick is a testnet with 3 nodes all on the same computer.
Ideal for running tests because you can quickly inspect the different nodes if one breaks.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
03:29
Deleted Account
I deleted my messages about TX errors in case anyone other might abuse it
S
03:34
Sy
looks like xdpool is back
03:35
two more dropped payments submitted at height 36608 which never happened - its way less than before but still there
03:36
36607 8 and 9 were mined by me so...its not a version problem
Z
03:59
Zack
@tallakt is you are worried about an exploit, tell me in PM so I can fix it
T
08:31
Topab
In reply to this message
+1
Z
08:40
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/getting-started/reporting_bugs.md

I wrote this document about reporting bugs. it is very short.
T
08:40
Topab
In reply to this message
I think this is key. Zack takes from important contributions from people in here but I do not think this is a real team. I remember reading the chat between Zack and Bharat (leverj) in their telegram. I consider Bharat a clever guy and he highlighted the great capabilities of Zack. But he also pointed out that Zack work could be really outstanding if working in a team and everybody in the team, with all the important roles a team should have
Z
08:43
Zack
I would have 10 users read this document, rather than having 10 salaries programmers.

https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/getting-started/reporting_bugs.md
T
09:02
Topab
Instead of you thinking on anything, from the coding part to how to promote amoveo or other sort of things, a team could be more efficient. I like the community base appraoch of amoveo and tend to dislike the more conventional way to form projects. I assume both have advantages and I wonder if something in between could be useful for amoveo
Z
09:09
Zack
I think we should dog food amoveo.
Instead of hiring people and building a hierarchy, we should use futarchy to make decisions and dominant assurance contracts to get paid.

If we can't use amoveo, how could we expect others to use it?
OK
09:12
O K
In reply to this message
Are you offering to forgo the dev reward?
Z
09:35
Zack
It would be wasteful to express my preferences too clearly.
We have an established process in place for changing governance variables.
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17:03
Deleted Account
Zack sorry I didnt think...
IP
17:09
I P
did i miss something?
Z
20:41
Zack
Typo, no worries
NinelN4 invited NinelN4
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12 October 2018
Eddy Surya invited Eddy Surya
Я
02:12
Ярослав
Mining profit fell down...
Job difficulty 9800 same as before...
Why?..
A
02:12
AAA
Block reward -33%
Я
02:13
Ярослав
Oops ))
IP
02:25
I P
In reply to this message
0.64 veo per block now, was 1.0
Я
02:27
Ярослав
When the next decline?
Z
02:27
Zack
Maybe next time the reward will increase instead of decrease.
IP
02:30
I P
In reply to this message
when next oracle
B
02:31
Ben
when someone will start it ;)
IP
02:32
I P
In reply to this message
ben, lets do it
02:32
we don't need that much inflation right now😃
02:32
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😂, 45.4 KB
Я
02:33
Ярослав
In reply to this message
Yep !
S
03:20
Sy
In reply to this message
thats pool diff, not block diff
03:20
ontop of everything else said 😝
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Z
07:44
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/basiccoin

Ive been taking out the core blockchain pieces from amoveo to make this more simple blockchain.
In the process I am reviewing every line of Amoveo. I already found a couple places where I could make some simplifications, and I found a potential bug.

Hopefully by making the core of Amoveo more useful, then more people will use it or study it. Bringing more eyes to the software this way helps us to find ways to improve it.
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DV
23:44
Denis Voskvitsov
guys, does anyone use push arbitrary transaction to the network feature in wallet.html? multi_tx specifically?
MF
23:56
Mr Flintstone
yeah for broadcasting cold storage tx
23:56
only spends tho
Z
23:57
Zack
Multi tx is important for cold storage yes. Otherwise nonces are a pain.
13 October 2018
OK
00:25
O K
In reply to this message
If you're asking for the simple wallet, no, it's an advanced feature
DV
00:28
Denis Voskvitsov
no, it's for the scope of supported tx's to display data on ledger when signing is performed
Z
00:29
Zack
if you use the ledger hardware wallet, then it is easy to make the txs one at a time, because the nonces aren't an issue.
Only reason to use multi-tx in that case is to save on tx fees.
DV
00:30
Denis Voskvitsov
I see, thx
I think it will support all available tx types anyway, but not in the first release
IP
00:35
I P
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
👍, 39.1 KB
Z
00:39
Zack
I guess it could be annoying to individually send 100 tx to the ledger to be signed, it would be faster to send a single multi-tx and sign it once
00:40
I don't know much about this hardware.
IP
00:40
I P
In reply to this message
you should get one. nice thing
00:41
not that cheap though but affordable
DV
00:42
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
indeed it could be.
though anyway you'll be required to review tx info on ledger for every tx included in multi_tx.
or just tap «confirm» without looking but it doesn't add much to safety then.
00:44
and due to hw limitations such multi_tx transactions would contain just like up to 9-10 txs.
anyway I think it will cover most of the use cases.
Z
00:45
Zack
I wonder if anyone uses this for big exchanges or mining pools.
checking that numbers match and clicking confirm thousands of times a day.
DV
00:45
Denis Voskvitsov
I think big exchanges use more advanced hw solutions like HSM
Z
00:46
Zack
wow, I didn't know about this. Thanks for sharing.
IP
01:07
I P
wow i see some signs of strong hodl. we mine 94 veo per day, only ~20 gets sold on exchanges
DV
01:16
Denis Voskvitsov
the rest goes otc perhaps
Z
01:17
Zack
we could probably figure that out by looking at the transactions, right?
MF
01:26
Mr Flintstone
we would just need to carve out pool payments
Z
01:59
Zack
I found a design error.
Currently when you want to write a batch of accounts to the hard drive, it first has to read all of those same accounts.

If the hard drive is the bottle neck on your machine, then this is more than doubling the processing time necessary.

The problem is that the current design has matched oracle bets live in a tiny merkel tree of each account. The advantage of this design is that it is easy for each user to know what their matched orders are, but now I see it comes at significant cost.
So I think we should do a hard update to fix this.

I found out about this potential upgrade while making this: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/basiccoin/tree/master/erlang_October_2018
02:01
This means we could process blocks more than twice as fast
AK
02:10
A K
Guys, do lightning payments work already? Does any exchange support them?
Z
02:11
Zack
They worked since day 1. any node that lets you made channels should also allow lightning payments.

I haven't tested lightning payments in a long time, be cautious
AK
02:15
A K
will it require any support on the exchange side or should I just try?
OK
02:16
O K
In reply to this message
It would require support
Z
02:18
Zack
If 2 people both have channels with the same node, then they can make a payment through that node to each other's channels.
02:18
None of the exchanges use channels at all.
02:18
yet.
IP
02:22
I P
what if i open chanel to one node, other person opens channel to 2nd node. can a first node open channel to 2nd node and me and other person transact through lightning?
02:22
Deleted Account
Exchanges are probably going to use Liquid network
AK
02:23
A K
In reply to this message
VEO exchanges ? Why?
Z
02:24
Zack
In reply to this message
we can't do that yet.
IP
02:24
I P
is it possible in future?
MF
02:25
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
that would be awesome
Z
02:26
Zack
In reply to this message
yes.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Bob James invited Bob James
BJ
06:57
Bob James
zack, new to amoveo. is there a cold storage wallet where i can store VEO so i can remove it from an exchange? thanks.
Z
06:58
Zack
you can use the light wallet javascript software for cold storage.
Download it from github, open wallet.html with a browser.
06:59
use a watch-only light wallet to generate the tx, then sign the tx from the cold storage machine.
M
07:00
Mike
This process is in the docs on GitHub? I know it’s simple but
IP
07:03
I P
also ledger support soon
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
08:02
Sy
In reply to this message
you keep saying that for month and i keep repeating
YOU DONT SAVE ON TX FEES
with multi_tx, if you still believe it, check your code and fix it
Z
08:02
Zack
the mining pools are currently setting the fee to practically zero, so it doesn't make a different right now
S
08:03
Sy
the fee is set by the node