Amoveo ♥🧿
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25 September 2018
IP
22:36
I P
i was thinking about running eth full node on my workstation which has 16gb ram and nvme ssd. But by that time my enthusiasm towards ethereum faded.😁
Z
22:37
Zack
I invested like 3 days into trying to get an eth node to sync, and I kept failing
26 September 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Seth Feibus invited Seth Feibus
TG
06:50
Toby Ganger
Someone just wiped out the buy side of the order book. Down 56% in a few minutes. Definitely need more liquidity
MF
07:20
Mr Flintstone
wow lol
07:21
someone was actually willing to sell 10 veo at like 30 dollars
07:25
makes no sense
07:25
There were buy orders for double that on amoveo.exchange
07:25
whoever just market sold is either a dumbass or hates money
07:29
I will never sell this coin
L
M
TG
13:53
Toby Ganger
there it goes again…buy side wiped out again
S
14:14
Sy
what did it take? 20 veo?
TG
15:40
Toby Ganger
Not sure. Not much liquidity at all. Seems purposeful though. Would be odd to dump into such a thin book now
AK
15:46
A K
like, to scare other sellers?
15:46
and get cheaper?
16:03
Deleted Account
Maybe stupid question - are markets operational now?
16:04
How much does it cost to create a prediction?
S
16:06
Deleted Account
I think about facilitating this with amoveo
See ulater invited See ulater
16:21
Deleted Account
16:21
What was the start date for veo ?
AK
16:21
A K
what's it, Binance?
16:22
Deleted Account
Nope, coinpaprika
16:23
very good coinmarketcap alternative
AK
16:33
A K
looks sleek
16:35
Deleted Account
Can something like infura may be build for amoveo?
AK
16:36
A K
github commits can be seen at least october 2017
16:36
Deleted Account
Is running a node strictly required for every action? Or maybe some actions may be signed via browser extension like metamask
16:36
2 march 2018 - tweet "first day of amoveo"
AK
16:38
A K
prob mainnet launch
16:38
development started earlier
16:38
so depends on what coinpaprike wants
16:38
Deleted Account
mainnet launch is project launch ;)
Also = what about creating something like https://ethresear.ch/ but for veo?
Also = what about creating something like https://ethresear.ch/ but for veo?
DY
18:20
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Whenever qtrade or amoveo.exchange gets on cmc
Or some already cmc exchange lists amoveo
Or some already cmc exchange lists amoveo
DV
19:47
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
most of the actions are available with light node which effectively is js app
19:55
Deleted Account
AK
19:56
A K
wow
19:56
but do they have feeds from qtrade / amoveo.ex ?
20:56
Deleted Account
btw will amoveo node work in ipv6 server?
Tv
21:43
Tarrence van As
If there is a dispute over the execution of a off-chain smart contract, does the contract get executed on-chain to resolve it?
Z
22:50
Zack
Yes. That is how channels work.
A
23:07
Aries
Anyone going today
23:08
En Route
Tv
23:53
Aries I'll be there!
27 September 2018
A
MF
00:22
Mr Flintstone
wish I could go :(
00:23
like eth
A
00:37
Aries
High level discussion so far
00:38
23 people here
00:38
This is exciting
Z
A
00:40
Aries
We are now talking about calculation of the odds outside the chains
MF
00:55
I assume it isn’t being recorded?
A
01:20
Aries
Sadly no :/
01:20
In the lobby networking
01:21
People are excited about Amoveo
01:22
Being asked if anyone has done a Amoveo Conference
01:23
01:23
Z
01:47
Zack
No amoveo conferences yet
DV
01:59
Denis Voskvitsov
so guys, i'm proud to present light wallet UI update we've made
http://amoveo.exan.tech
it's still many things to do on the client side since there is only new layout, but I believe once this change is included in master branch (we're preparing PR right now), it would be a bit easier for newcomers to use VEO.
I'd love to listen your feedback here or directly in telegram.
http://amoveo.exan.tech
it's still many things to do on the client side since there is only new layout, but I believe once this change is included in master branch (we're preparing PR right now), it would be a bit easier for newcomers to use VEO.
I'd love to listen your feedback here or directly in telegram.
f
B
02:17
Ben
share the source and that will be a major step in usability.
02:17
good job
Z
02:17
Zack
Looks like headers aren't syncing?
B
02:17
Ben
maybe ask zack if he can check it and merge it to the repo
02:18
looks like the node is stuck
DV
02:18
Denis Voskvitsov
is it? I can see headers are syncing
MF
02:19
Mr Flintstone
34815
02:19
works for me
DV
02:19
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
it is open source ofc, https://github.com/exantech/amoveo — our current fork, working on PR to Zack's repo right now
Z
02:20
Zack
My mistake. Headers are syncing
Zenel Batagelj invited Zenel Batagelj
M
OK
02:51
O K
Major improvement, but account page should default, and anything that isn't send related should be hidden by default. Just my 0.02
DV
02:51
Denis Voskvitsov
thanks! yep, it's the next change
OK
02:51
O K
People who are going to use advanced features are smart enough to click "show advanced features"
02:51
People that aren't, are easily enough confused to run away if they're exposed by default
02:52
In fact, everything that requires a key loaded can be hidden until the key is loaded
DV
02:53
Denis Voskvitsov
thanks for feedback. we tried not to change internal flow very much yet but will do these things
OK
02:54
O K
Thanks for working on it
02:54
Big to-do is not making it look like a space shuttle dashboard
02:54
Looks much better already
DV
Tv
04:19
Tarrence van As
What's the highest performance cuda miner on Ubuntu?
MF
06:11
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
might have better luck in discord mining channel for this
crazy the brake invited crazy the brake
James invited James
Deleted invited Deleted Account
AK
14:40
A K
💪
14:40
Dat price, though )
Deleted invited Deleted Account
IP
20:07
I P
In reply to this message
very nice! if only they could add amoveo.exchange and qtrade.io to coinpaprica as exchange
28 September 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Sergio invited Sergio
B
00:48
Bluedream
amoveo has a future?
00:49
among huge smart contract projects?
MF
01:03
Mr Flintstone
amoveo was purpose-built to be scalable since the beginning
01:04
so we don’t have to spend a lot of time trying to patch scalability onto the chain
IP
MF
01:05
Mr Flintstone
this plus the native oracle, aside from liquidity I don’t see how any other smart contract platforms can compete
Z
01:08
Zack
We implemented turing completeness in a very different place in comparison to eth.
DV
01:14
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
SSL is one of the next steps but we should understand that not every full node owner will do this for their node (presented UI will be part of default distribution soon).
.app domain is interesting one though, will consider it, thank you
.app domain is interesting one though, will consider it, thank you
Z
01:21
Deleted Account
front-end
DV
01:22
Denis Voskvitsov
browser will block any xhr request to non-https server with https frontend
Z
01:23
Zack
In reply to this message
Ssl doesn't help you if you are using an api on your own computer.
There is no way a man in the middle can happen when you are talking to yourself.
There is no way a man in the middle can happen when you are talking to yourself.
01:24
Oh, you want ssl for when we share blocks between the nodes?
DV
01:25
Denis Voskvitsov
no, I mostly speak about the case when you want to access web wallet on your full node deployed somewhere on the 3rd party host
01:25
so if you set up https front-end, you can't use it until full node rpc api is accessible with https too
Z
01:26
Zack
In reply to this message
That sounds insecure.
It is better to keep a local copy of the light node software. Don't download a web wallet from an untrusted connection.
It is better to keep a local copy of the light node software. Don't download a web wallet from an untrusted connection.
DV
01:26
Denis Voskvitsov
well yes
but for instance there is no direct way to download and use local js files on mobile platforms (iOS at least)
but for instance there is no direct way to download and use local js files on mobile platforms (iOS at least)
Z
DV
01:27
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
headers, sending tx, etc.
requests that web wallet can send
requests that web wallet can send
Z
01:27
Zack
In reply to this message
Amoveo is already a secure protocol.
How would layering ssl on top improve the situation?
How would layering ssl on top improve the situation?
DV
01:28
Denis Voskvitsov
it won't, but web browsers work this way
Z
01:28
Zack
Web browsers also work with http.
If you can't find a good reason for ssl, I won't waste time implementing this.
If you can't find a good reason for ssl, I won't waste time implementing this.
DV
01:29
Denis Voskvitsov
I don't think it needs to be implemented in amoveo
01:30
anyone who want this can set up separate front end server with https and accomplish the goal.
AK
01:31
A K
Yeah, in principle one should run everything locally
Z
01:31
Zack
Yes, we all know that anyone can set up ssl on any http server.
Not sure why you are on amoveo forum.
Not sure why you are on amoveo forum.
AK
01:31
A K
In practice though, ppl use MEW
DV
01:31
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
there was a question about https for web wallet UI, this is follow-up to it
Z
01:32
Zack
Even if you use https, that does not give any additional security.
If you get served bad light wallet code that is made to steal your private key, encrypting it with ssl does not help you.
If you get served bad light wallet code that is made to steal your private key, encrypting it with ssl does not help you.
OK
01:33
O K
Obviously... SSL serves different purposes
AK
01:34
A K
Yep, there are different attack vectors and "defense in depth"
Z
01:35
Zack
We are already using a pubkey/priv key crypto system.
Adding ssl to the http server in the full node software is a bunch of work.
If you can't explain how it could be useful, then I will not add this feature.
Adding ssl to the http server in the full node software is a bunch of work.
If you can't explain how it could be useful, then I will not add this feature.
OK
01:35
O K
It's been discussed pretty thoroughly already
01:37
It also helps ensure you're connected to the server you expect to be connected to, it makes MITM much harder
Z
01:39
Zack
Yes, I realize ssl is for end to end encryption.
Still not clear how it could be useful for any of our users.
The server you are connecting to has a private key that it can use to sign messages.
The server's signature proves that it controls the relevant Veo.
Still not clear how it could be useful for any of our users.
The server you are connecting to has a private key that it can use to sign messages.
The server's signature proves that it controls the relevant Veo.
AK
01:40
A K
MTM can serve a malicious JS which will still your privkey?
OK
01:40
O K
If someone wants to connect to your light wallet via tor because they live in a bad area
Z
01:40
Zack
The existing pubkey/priv key system is a lot better at preventing man in the middle in comparison to ssl
01:40
In reply to this message
We already established that ssl doesn't prevent you from being served bad light node software.
AK
01:41
A K
Different attack vectors
OK
01:41
O K
It prevents others from serving bad software that is not the trusted server... Why conflate the two things?
AK
01:41
A K
Comprised host Vs compromised route/isp
Z
01:41
Zack
If your security model involves trust, then it is not secure.
01:41
There is no trusted server.
AK
01:41
A K
Do you trust Intel?
Z
01:41
Zack
No.
AK
01:41
A K
So you're using abacus?
01:42
AMD also has Management Extensions fyi
01:42
Qualcomm also
01:42
Maybe PowerPC doesn't, dunno
DV
01:43
Denis Voskvitsov
MIPS! now I clearly see why running node on the poor hardware is the goal :-)
Z
01:43
Zack
So you think I should add ssl support to the cowboy server in amoveo because of something in AMD chips called "management extentions"?
OK
01:44
O K
In reply to this message
Trust is subjective. If you believed this you would stop advising people to use your node
AK
01:44
A K
I'm trying to explain that different attack vectors exist and there is always trust
OK
01:44
O K
This 'discussion' is pointless
AK
01:44
A K
Implicit or explicit
01:44
I'm not asking you to add ssl though, I can do without
Z
01:44
Zack
In reply to this message
I strongly advise people to never trust a light node you download from any amoveo server.
Download it from github and open with your browser.
Download it from github and open with your browser.
AK
01:45
A K
But I'm a single data point )
01:45
Because GitHub can't be compromised?
Z
01:45
Zack
Github can be compromised
OK
01:45
O K
It'd be worse to trust github code if they didn't use SSL
01:46
That much is obvious
Z
01:46
Zack
Sure. Still not a reason for me to add ssl to cowboy in amoveo
OK
01:46
O K
It's... Exactly the same reason
MF
01:46
Mr Flintstone
we can ask an amoveo oracle what the hash of the light node is
AK
01:47
A K
Just include commit hash in Blockchain?
MF
01:47
Mr Flintstone
that way if GitHub gets compromised, we can still be sure we have the right light node
01:47
we can do it with oracle question yeah
01:48
I feel like checksum validation is an underrated use case of oracles
Z
01:49
Zack
So you wouldn't know that the light node code is valid until you sync the headers.
MF
01:49
Mr Flintstone
yeah
Z
01:53
Zack
So you would have a Merkel proof to prove that the Oracle said the hash of your light node at a point in time.
And while syncing, you need to confirm that the hash of some header matches the root of the Merkel proof.
And while syncing, you need to confirm that the hash of some header matches the root of the Merkel proof.
01:53
If the light node software was corrupted, it seems like it could be made to say a different header hash for one of the headers.
01:54
The different header hash could be made to match a different Merkel proof which makes the broken light node look valid
01:55
If we try to use the light node software to verify the light node software, I think we always get into these circular issues
01:58
I keep most of my Veo in cold storage.
MF
02:10
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
yeah, maybe it doesn’t make sense to use amoveo oracles to checksum amoveo nodes
02:10
maybe other software though, like other blockchains
Z
02:11
Zack
Yes, once Amoveo is synced, you can use it to bootstrap security for other software
02:11
Maybe we should link all the blockchains together, so any of them can be used to bootstrap any other
MF
02:13
Mr Flintstone
maybe this can solve chain bloat where validation is the bottleneck with the additional security assumption of a functioning amoveo
DV
02:15
Denis Voskvitsov
besides blockchain solutions and since you trust github light node can download checksum published there and use it
Z
02:19
Zack
any trust is a flaw.
02:20
just because github is the current recommendation doesn't make it a long term solution.
02:23
If you read a specification, and then wrote your own light node, that could be trust free.
I wonder what the smallest subset of the light node you would need to write in order to verify that the rest of the light node is valid.
I wonder what the smallest subset of the light node you would need to write in order to verify that the rest of the light node is valid.
02:24
If each of us had a couple trusted friends who are capable of writing code to verify the light node software, then we could all sync.
AK
02:25
A K
web of trust?
Z
02:25
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_http/priv/external_web/headers.js
Looks like about 200-300 lines of code to write the minimal viable light node to verify other light node software
Looks like about 200-300 lines of code to write the minimal viable light node to verify other light node software
02:26
and this is vanilla javascript. If you used something like python, it could be a lot shorter.
02:26
Maybe we could make some tutorials for writing the minimal light node
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
02:38
Zack
so the steps of syncing amoveo would be like this:
1) use the protocol specification to write about 200 lines of code to download and verify the headers.
2) keep trying to sync with different nodes to make sure you have downloaded the version of history that had the most work done.
3) verify that the hash of header N matches the root of the oracle merkel proof
4) verify that the oracle merkel proof is valid. (easy to do by hand if you can compute the hash function.)
5) download the light node, and check that it's hash matches the oracle merkel proof.
6) use the light node normally.
It seems like a high barrier to entry.
But if we are first to solve the code distribution problem, that would be cool.
1) use the protocol specification to write about 200 lines of code to download and verify the headers.
2) keep trying to sync with different nodes to make sure you have downloaded the version of history that had the most work done.
3) verify that the hash of header N matches the root of the oracle merkel proof
4) verify that the oracle merkel proof is valid. (easy to do by hand if you can compute the hash function.)
5) download the light node, and check that it's hash matches the oracle merkel proof.
6) use the light node normally.
It seems like a high barrier to entry.
But if we are first to solve the code distribution problem, that would be cool.
02:42
Each person only needs to write the protocol specification once. If the light node is updated, you can use the old version of the light node to verify the oracle's outcome, then you could know that the new version of the light node is also valid.
02:45
Maybe instead of each user writing the 200 lines, we should write them once long-form with excessive comments.
So the user merely needs to verify that the code is doing the correct thing and nothing extra.
That would make step 1 easier for some people.
So the user merely needs to verify that the code is doing the correct thing and nothing extra.
That would make step 1 easier for some people.
Z
03:02
Zack
We could have people get together at big meetups with dozens or hundreds, and they put the 200 lines up on a wall and all talk it over to agree if there is any flaws.
If there is an exploit in such a short piece of code, someone will see it and be able to explain it to everyone else.
If there is an exploit in such a short piece of code, someone will see it and be able to explain it to everyone else.
03:07
Deleted Account
I think an oracle for signing the software doesnt make sense. better if you made an oracle like «zacks version X of the amoveo node software is available at bittorrent magnet link ___, and is signed by zacks account ___»
03:08
the function of the oracle is an easy way to verify that the link and signature is ok without every user having to do it
03:08
they could start the download by clicking the oracle text
Z
03:09
Zack
a bittorrent magnet link is the same thing as the hash of the software.
bittorrent magnet links are a nice standardization I agree would be useful in this situation.
bittorrent magnet links are a nice standardization I agree would be useful in this situation.
03:09
Deleted Account
The big issue with using oracles for this is that an oracle could take a long time to resolve. this will delay releases. but anyone could manually verify that Zack or whoever had signed it
03:10
i think bittorrent is the best trustless decentralized way of distributing software...
Z
03:11
Zack
Regardless of you download the software with bittorrent or with http, you would still need to go through those steps I listed above.
re-writing or verifying the 200 lines of code.
re-writing or verifying the 200 lines of code.
MF
03:12
Mr Flintstone
unambiguous question oracles shouldn’t take longer than 1k blocks to resolve
03:13
but yeah, it would cause a delay of 1 week for a release
Z
03:13
Zack
Even if it had my address embedded in the oracle result, you can't know the oracle result is valid unless you already know that the light node is valid.
03:13
Deleted Account
having the light wallet served from an https enabled domain would let me as a user verify that I was on a server I trust. i fully agree that you should not trust another site with your private keys, but fact of life is most people do this, and when they do, a https domain is far preferred over http and ip address
MF
03:13
Mr Flintstone
Like, who would bet on false on an oracle that says 2+2=4
Z
03:14
Zack
In reply to this message
just because someone enabled https doesn't necessarily mean that they are worthy of your trust.
People who enable https are just as able to serve bad software.
People who enable https are just as able to serve bad software.
03:14
Deleted Account
you would expect that you trust the old version of the software to tell you the next version
Z
03:14
Zack
yes, once you can run the old version, then you can use it to tell you the next valid version. so you don't have to re-write those 200 lines more than once.
03:15
Deleted Account
but https is better. if i was using http://www.zacksamoveo.io/ i knew i was trusting you. i dont know that noe because your ip address may change, and anyways I dont remember it
03:16
if someone hacked your github account, they could easily change the ip adress and noone would notice
Z
03:16
even if I enabled HTTPS, I am pretty sure that anyone else with a valid certificate can MITM, right?
03:17
Deleted Account
well i trust Amazon isnt meddling with your servers ;)
Z
03:17
Zack
I don't rent from Amazon.
03:17
Deleted Account
you need the certificate and also control of the domain i believe
Z
03:18
Zack
so then we are trusting the DNS system?
03:18
I am pretty sure governments occasionally mess with the DNS system to enforce laws
03:18
Deleted Account
you could steal the certificate and hack dns
Z
03:19
Zack
we already have pub/priv key system in Amoveo, it is much preferable to ssl because the pubkey is connected to money being owned on Amoveo.
03:19
Deleted Account
its still a lot harder than fooling someone by giving them a link with a random ip address and saying its your server
Z
03:19
Zack
no matter what ip address you give people, that wont cause them to think that an invalid signature is valid.
03:19
Deleted Account
https is used by banks and such, if it was that easy there would be more issues
Z
03:20
Zack
Security in a decentralized blockchain is much different from running a centralized bank server.
The fact that banks use HTTPS does not necessarily mean that it is useful for us.
The fact that banks use HTTPS does not necessarily mean that it is useful for us.
03:20
Deleted Account
it could cause them to trust a third party with their private keys
Z
03:21
Deleted Account
https is not your security, just taking care of reckless users
03:21
happy users -> bigger community -> Amoveo survives the next few years
Z
03:21
Zack
security theater increases the odds of reckless users engaging in insecure behavior, because security theater increases the complexity of trying to be secure.
03:22
Deleted Account
you know my stand. i wrote my own wallet :) but i still use any server to deal with smaller amounts because its easier
03:26
i dont think its fair to assume that people will be more reckless with https. i think many will be reckless anyways, because they dont understand how to run the light wallet. and by not using domains and https you are making it easier to trick these people
Z
03:29
Zack
when people see https, they assume that it is secure. Why else would https be used if not to make it secure?
This confusion could cause a lot of people to get their money stolen.
I think I should disable the full node from being able to serve the light node, that way the only way to use a light node will be by downloading it from github.
This confusion could cause a lot of people to get their money stolen.
I think I should disable the full node from being able to serve the light node, that way the only way to use a light node will be by downloading it from github.
03:30
It was never my intention that people would use the light node this way.
It is weird how you can design software one way, and then people end up using it so differently.
It is weird how you can design software one way, and then people end up using it so differently.
03:31
Deleted Account
we need an option for, and I mean this in a positive way, «the clueless»
03:32
splitting the node sw and the wallet is perhaps a good idea, but the we need to serve «https://myamoveowallet.com»
Z
03:32
Zack
Slapping an https on top of a honeypot doesn't make the clueless any better off.
03:32
Deleted Account
wrt to the split of node and wallet i have no opinion on this to be clear
03:33
if someone runs it and decides to not rip then off its ok for me
03:34
there is no safe software. most people cant read code, and even if you could its too much work. why is trusting mew worse than installing a wallet as a desktop app? there are ways to attack most systems
Z
03:35
Zack
I would much rather encourage users to download a light node from github than some random person in our community.
03:36
Deleted Account
for larger amounts i would not recommend it of course. also temporary use and then transfer to cold storage could be acceptable for many
Z
03:36
Zack
If github decides to mess with our software, then the problems would be a lot worse than broken light nodes
03:36
Deleted Account
github it M$ now. its a matter of time before they leak passwords
03:37
its ok for now though, imho
Z
03:38
Zack
still, at the current time, I think it is safer for users to download the light node from github than from some random community member who makes an https website.
03:38
A random community member willing to go through the work to make a website like that probably has higher odds of trying to rob us than anyone else.
03:39
M$ doesn't care about projects as small as we currently are.
03:42
Maybe I should make a magnet link of the light node software, and use a sticky message on telegram.
Then we could trust telegram instead of microsoft/github.
Then we could trust telegram instead of microsoft/github.
03:42
Deleted Account
No, but at one point they will want to port the backend to Azure and MS logins ;) who knows. right now i dont think they will touch github
Z
03:43
Zack
I think Pavel Durov is even less likely to mess with the light node than microsoft
03:48
Deleted Account
thats not the problem right now, heh
03:49
i would have liked to read that on slashdot though: «Microsoft inserts spyware into Amoveo’s souce code on Github»
Z
03:50
Zack
haha
That would bring a lot of attention
That would bring a lot of attention
Deleted invited Deleted Account
IP
06:30
I P
In reply to this message
he won't mess with it. he might even like amoveo if he decides to explore it
Z
07:59
Zack
we would get less publicity from Pavel messing with us in comparison to Microsoft
08:00
If only there was a way for us to trust Trump.
If he messed with Amoveo, the media might mention it.
If he messed with Amoveo, the media might mention it.
IP
08:00
we could make a prediction market on trump penis size
08:01
that could get attention
08:01
in fact, i'm wondering why we still don't have such market
Z
08:01
Zack
How would the oracle resolve? I doubt he would submit to a public measurement.
IP
08:01
I P
question should be smth like 'is trump erect penis size larger than 12cm'
08:02
but he had sexual partners so they could testify and participate in the oracle
Z
08:02
Zack
We can only bet on things that eventually become common knowledge.
IP
08:02
I P
well i mean his small penis should be a common knowledge by now
08:03
a man with huge penis don't act like trump does
Z
08:03
Zack
by "Common knowledge", I mean it has to be a fact that can be looked up by anyone for almost no cost.
08:04
https://twitter.com/zack_bitcoin/status/1040959686999203845
I made this post about when you can and cannot use prediction markets.
I made this post about when you can and cannot use prediction markets.
IP
08:05
I P
so basically trumop penis size market should resolve to 'bad question'?
Z
08:06
Zack
yes, if you asked the oracle something like this, my expectation is that it would resolve to "bad question".
IP
08:06
I P
but if i ask smth like this 'based on trump decisions would you consider him having a small penis?'
08:07
this is a question not about the real length of a penis but of people perception of that length
08:07
and i bet peopl perceive his penis fcking small
Z
08:07
Zack
We could ask the oracle whether he will use his power as president to impose any tariffs against Canadian imports in the next 4 weeks.
08:08
You can't ask about people's opinion with an oracle.
You can only ask about things that will become common knowledge in the future.
You can only ask about things that will become common knowledge in the future.
IP
08:08
I P
well, if you want media attention question should be about his penis, not tariffs
08:33
Deleted Account
tbh I've sent link to amoveo light wallet to somebody and he dissed the project purely on lack of https
08:34
If you are in for example librarly the sysadmin can intercept and switch code to extract privkeys
Z
08:48
Zack
In reply to this message
you should never put your private key into a light wallet that you downloaded from some node.
Get it from github.
Get it from github.
08:48
You can download a light node from a peer if you are only using a watch-only wallet.
J
09:12
Justin
I costs $0 and takes ~ 5 minutes to get a certificate via letsencrypt that will let you use https:// People care, and are right in caring, about that
09:12
You can be technically "right" but still alienate all your potential users, in which case, you are by definition wrong
Z
09:32
Zack
haha
IP
09:40
I P
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😁, 26.6 KB
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
14:58
Sy
In reply to this message
Not that weird, i told you to move the light node out of the full node month ago so users realize it runs standalone
15:01
In reply to this message
I can run a modified https node np, doesnt protect anyone from an evil admin but If you feel saver loosing your money via https, so be it
15:01
Zack is correct there, https doesnt help at all
AK
15:11
A K
There is no one stop solution to fix everything
15:11
even receiving pubkey offline from Zack directly to an offline device )
15:11
i'm sure someone will still come with an attack vector
15:12
so it's all about balance
15:12
MEW helped ETH, it's a fact
15:12
with all obvious downsides
15:12
would we exclude millions of people on the grounds of them being not well versed in pubkey crypto or python?
15:12
that's the question
15:12
I think I know Zack's answer )
S
15:30
Sy
Its not his job
15:30
If you want it, do it
15:31
You know zacks Design skills, do you really want him to run mvw? 😂
AK
15:38
A K
MVW can be created by a third party dev, sure, question is, would Zack actively oppose it / discourage ppl from using. If official repo says "don't use mvw" than it's futile
15:38
(to be super clear, def not expecting Zack to create MVW)
16:46
Deleted Account
hi guys
16:47
now i'm working of VEO faq. Most answers I already get from web, but some I prefer to ask here
16:48
1. How much VEO is planned to be mined in future? Is there any limit or saturation algorithm?
B
16:49
Ben
there is no limit
16:49
it is regulated via GOV Variable and can be lowerd or raised
16:50
Deleted Account
Who decides this? Miners?
16:51
using futarchy system?
16:54
2. Zack mentions "bitcoin Lightning channels". Does he meant "Amoveo analogue of bitcoin Lightning Channels" or real "bitcoin Lightning channels"? (maybe stupid question but I don't want to make a mistake)
AK
16:56
A K
the former
16:56
Deleted Account
thx
Deleted invited Deleted Account
18:45
Deleted Account
Hi
18:46
Is there. Channel for buying/selling VEO?
DY
18:46
Deleted Account
the oracle oracle responds: Did any of the top 20 newspapers in the us by number of paper printed newspapers report that Trumps penis was smaller than 3 inches, as of date january 1 2019»
Z
29 September 2018
05:58
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
who can vote in this system? only miners or all holders? do they pay fixed or arbitrary bet for participation?
Z
05:58
Zack
democracy using voting. futarchy uses betting.
Anyone can bet in Amoveo oracles.
Anyone can bet in Amoveo oracles.
05:59
Deleted Account
good
Z
05:59
Zack
you can only bet at 50-50 price in amoveo's oracle. you either double your money, or lose it.
06:03
Deleted Account
what was a typical bet size in such events in the history of VEO? how many times oracles were already used?
Z
06:04
Zack
bets have been between 0.2 veo and 100 veo.
We have used the governance oracle about 3 times, we have used the question oracle probably about 20 times.
We have used the governance oracle about 3 times, we have used the question oracle probably about 20 times.
06:04
a typical bet is probably about 1 veo.
06:05
Deleted Account
what is the price to ask a question?
06:05
both asking and answering require money?
Z
06:06
Zack
to ask a question is about 0.02 veo I think.
Reporting the outcome costs about 0.04. the reporter gets their money back, plus they get the 0.02 veo as a extra reward.
Reporting the outcome costs about 0.04. the reporter gets their money back, plus they get the 0.02 veo as a extra reward.
06:07
a governance oracle is more expensive, it is like 0.3 veo
AK
06:07
Alex K
In reply to this message
how it works if bets are not equal? where will you get VEO to pay the winning bet if it is 1 vs 100?
Z
06:08
Zack
In reply to this message
there is an order book.
If your bet does not get matched, then you get a refund.
Bets get matched in the order they were made, first come first serve.
If your bet does not get matched, then you get a refund.
Bets get matched in the order they were made, first come first serve.
06:08
here you can read the commands to do these things: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/api/commands_oracle.md
06:09
oracle questions cost about 0.0221 veo
governance oracles cost about 0.3383 veo
governance oracles cost about 0.3383 veo
06:17
Deleted Account
those users who voted for wrong answer lose their bets?
Z
06:18
Zack
if you bet on the outcome that loses, then you lose your money.
06:18
there is no voting.
06:26
Deleted Account
and what if the answer is not obvious? espesially if it is related to some politically enforced myth? majority can bet for a wrong idea because look tv too much. And the minority, who only know the truth (for example, some scientists) will lose
Z
06:26
Zack
the oracle can close in 3 states: true, false, bad-question
06:28
If reality and community beliefs are contradictory, it seems to me that it is better that the oracle should agree with the community.
06:28
Deleted Account
ok, it at least will be closer to truth that in conventional democracy
06:31
for example, if you ask in 1990-s russia "would it be good to kill all gays and drug users", then a lot of people say "yes", but very small part of them would give any dollar for this
MF
06:33
Mr Flintstone
there are lots of bad questions
06:33
you need to be sure it’s a good question if you’re gonna risk money on it
06:34
well, risk money on either true or false
Z
06:34
Zack
whether something is "good" is a subjective question. I expect the community to return bad-question in that situation.
MF
06:34
Mr Flintstone
over time norms will develop I think
Z
06:34
Zack
You can only ask the oracle thing that are easy to look up.
MF
06:34
Mr Flintstone
but the path will be bloody
06:35
there is a question that has gone a few rounds on augur
Z
06:36
Zack
For example, you could ask something like:
P) did our government institute a law to kill/deport gays and drug users?An oracle like this would let you make a market to find out if getting rid of gays and drug users would increase the GDP.
Q) did the GDP increase during this time period?
(P and Q) or (!P and !Q)
06:38
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
terrible possibility is that some people can give wrong answers just because they know that majority will give the same answer and get money.
Z
06:39
Zack
just because you bet more money doesn't necessarily mean that your side of the oracle will win. Once enough money is at stake in the market, then it becomes profitable to force the decision with Nakamoto consensus.
People trying to manipulate the market end up increasing the prize for accurate reporting. It tends to make markets more accurate: http://mason.gmu.edu/~rhanson/biashelp.pdf
People trying to manipulate the market end up increasing the prize for accurate reporting. It tends to make markets more accurate: http://mason.gmu.edu/~rhanson/biashelp.pdf
06:47
Deleted Account
MHO is that for some controversal questions the alternative system would be better: every participant loses money. therefore, informed minority will have more motivation to participate - just for popularization of truth
Z
06:51
Zack
The idea is that if an oracle is ever in a lying state, that means anyone else can double their money for free.
06:52
Deleted Account
well, its good
t
Z
07:04
Zack
My expectation is that a test like that would show that killing off druggies and homosexuals would negatively impact the gdp.
If 10-20% of people are gone, then the country will produce 10-20% less wealth that year.
If 10-20% of people are gone, then the country will produce 10-20% less wealth that year.
07:17
Deleted Account
this idea is too intellectual for most population. however, i think that in practice, gamblers will avoid such questions
07:24
(btw everyone knows how expensive american prison system with 2 700 000 incarcerated people is ($60 000/year for each) - but moral majority support it and do not want to save these money for better needs)
Z
07:27
Zack
Prediction markets are nice for answering certain questions, like if we release all the people in prison for nonviolent offenses:
* will the crime rate go up or down?
* will the number of murders this year be higher or lower?
* will the employment rate go up or down by how much?
* will the number of drug overdoses be higher or lower?
It is possible that the answers to questions like these will surprise people, and make them change their minds about prisons.
* will the crime rate go up or down?
* will the number of murders this year be higher or lower?
* will the employment rate go up or down by how much?
* will the number of drug overdoses be higher or lower?
It is possible that the answers to questions like these will surprise people, and make them change their minds about prisons.
07:29
The existence of prison causes some people to become desperate, and desperate people is the driving cause of violent crime.
It is possible that prisons cause an increase in violent crime.
It is possible that prisons cause an increase in violent crime.
07:30
Also possible that police don't have the time to prevent violence, because they are too busy policing for nonviolent crime.
07:33
Debates and politics is not a good way to find answers to these questions. It is noisy and hard to tell who is honest.
Prediction markets cut through the noise, and measure the truth as accurately as possible in a way that is easy to understand.
Prediction markets cut through the noise, and measure the truth as accurately as possible in a way that is easy to understand.
07:35
Deleted Account
at least bets enforce people to make more rational actions that conventional voting
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
17:09
Topab
Request for participation in Futarchy experiments
https://ethresear.ch/t/request-for-participation-in-futarchy-experiments/3587?ref=tokendaily
https://ethresear.ch/t/request-for-participation-in-futarchy-experiments/3587?ref=tokendaily
DV
21:02
Denis Voskvitsov
looking at the current state of governance oracle, it's switched to false. is it really now has 300 VEO unmatched?
IP
21:08
to check
DV
21:09
Denis Voskvitsov
there is something like this, available by api:orders call, but it has technical data too which is not orders actually. that's why I'm asking
S
21:40
Sy
You can only see whsts unmatched, everything else is blocks only
MF
21:41
Mr Flintstone
jeez
IP
21:43
I P
o, does it have 300 veo unmatched with oracle resolving to false?
30 September 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
01:24
Deleted Account
this is an example that Amoveo is uncensored. we might not all get the answers we like
Z
01:29
Zack
FhbnDw8UWS0ZhtI4/c87YQmwdxXa71NUaadhP9Igzsw=
This oracle has about 600 veo worth of unmatched bets.
This oracle has about 600 veo worth of unmatched bets.
01:29
It is currently in state "false"
01:30
out of all the money bet in oracles, about 99.8% of it was bet in this one oracle.
01:30
This is far more money than has been used in all the other smart contracts combined
AK
01:48
A K
😱
Z
01:51
Zack
I wonder if they meant to make 2 300-veo bets, or if they meant to only make one 300-veo bet.
S
02:07
Sy
Na im pretty sure thats on purpose
02:07
I know most betters
Christian invited Christian
C
02:45
Christian
Hi everyone
IP
MF
06:23
Mr Flintstone
yeah
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
06:25
Mr Flintstone
600 veo is no joke
IP
06:26
I P
when veo was 800$ 600 veo was almost 0.5 mln $
MF
06:26
Mr Flintstone
are you sure it’s 600?
06:26
one 300 veo bet
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Tv
08:00
Tarrence van As
Is veoscan opensource?
S
08:05
Sy
No
08:05
But blocks are...
Tv
08:12
Tarrence van As
Hmm too bad. Is the node http interface documented somewhere?
IP
08:18
I P
could be a stupid question but will there be a hybrid pow/pos for veo in future?
08:19
it seems that pure pos makes no sence for public blockchains, while pure pow is ok. but what about hybrid, is it better? do we need that?
Tv
08:35
Tarrence van As
What governance parameter is 1?
Z
Tv
08:36
Tarrence van As
Where can I lookup the correspondence?
Z
08:37
Zack
In reply to this message
Maybe someday.
For now the demand for new coins is big enough that we don't have to worry.
For now the demand for new coins is big enough that we don't have to worry.
Tv
08:39
Tarrence van As
In reply to this message
So is the oracle FhbnDw8UWS0ZhtI4/c87YQmwdxXa71NUaadhP9Igzsw= trying to increase block reward to 50?
08:40
Not sure how to parse the info returned from the light node
Z
08:40
Zack
It can increase or decrease or leave it the same.
Currently it looks like it will decrease.
Currently it looks like it will decrease.
Tv
08:41
Tarrence van As
Decrease by how much? What does “governance amount” refer to?
MF
09:01
Mr Flintstone
50 means percent change on the upside
09:04
if it’s down (or false) then we calculate it like 1/(1+.5) -1 = around 33%
09:04
so if the oracle finishes in the output type false the block reward will drop to around 0.7
09:05
if it somehow finished as true, the block reward would go up to around 1.5
Tv
10:12
Tarrence van As
Thank you for the clarification! So there is no possibility of remaining the same?
MF
10:53
Mr Flintstone
if the final output type is “bad question”, then nothing will change
10:54
this specific oracle has been flipping between false and bad question
AK
14:31
A K
so is it 300 or 600?
Z
14:32
Zack
The tool I wrote for the Api is saying 2 bets of about 300 each.
AK
15:01
A K
and if it resolves false, it only modifies block reward, dev fee remains 0.2 ?
15:05
Deleted Account
Is there fundamental reason to not add token issuing ability for amoveo?
15:16
Deleted Account
dev fee is a % of the mining reward. so in the future, when the dev reward becomes possible to change, the dev reward will be that same % of supply, as coins are only minted theough mining. right now the % value is locked in amoveo code
AK
16:03
A K
mm, so it will go to 0.7*0.2
16:49
Deleted Account
Do you have link on Augur valuation model? I'm doing research for token / coins valuations
Z
Deleted invited Deleted Account
21:31
Deleted Account
sorry, I read the code to understand that the dev fee was locked for a while... i was wrong then?
IP
21:33
I P
In reply to this message
funds are safu but you can make oracle to reduce dev reward payments to the locked funds acc
21:33
i don't think Zack will be happy about that though. But hey, why not let futarchy play it
MF
IP
22:04
I P
In reply to this message
why would he leave the project? amoveo is a pinnacle of his creation
22:05
and he only wants to make it better
22:05
not many projects actually bring innovation to blockchain space
22:08
man, what is your problem really, please feel free to share
22:08
my bet is you went all in at 800$
22:08
and had to watch how it goes down all the way to 40$
IP
1 October 2018
Z
00:46
Zack
I think he is trying to make a joke.
Lots of people from different parts of the world use this forum. Humor works differently in different cultures.
Lots of people from different parts of the world use this forum. Humor works differently in different cultures.
01:09
Deleted Account
Veo will pump as soon as it will get more known
IP
Eli W invited Deleted Account
15:01
Deleted Account
What is new supply proposed/
Stuart Tweedie invited Stuart Tweedie
Deleted invited Deleted Account
18:12
Deleted Account
Hi guyz, can I see any working batch file
18:12
I want to mine some with GPU
18:15
as I see there some mining softwares, witch one is the best?
AK
19:33
A K
Is the oracle settlement time extended on every bet? Or only when state changes?
MF
19:58
Mr Flintstone
only when type changes
19:59
I think we’re a few hundred blocks away from this one being able to be settled?
19:59
I think we still have to call an oracle close tx to finalize it
AK
S
21:12
Sy
OG?
AK
21:28
A K
original )
IP
21:40
I P
lol i am an OG
AK
21:47
A K
you bet 600??
IP
21:49
I P
nope
21:50
i mean all the miners who started early can be considered OGs
AK
21:50
A K
sry, perhaps that was a rude question
2 October 2018
BitBro invited BitBro
Matt Walsh invited Matt Walsh
Nic Carter invited Nic Carter
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
A
04:51
Aries
Welcome
PB
M
11:35
The real MVP @Mandelhoff got that early GPU mining open for everyone
IP
11:50
I P
yep he is our hero
s
12:47
sanket
Does someone have a guide which I can follow to bet on markets on Amoveo? I am not a tech guy but love the idea
IP
12:48
http://amoveobook.com you would need a browser extension wallet to use it
12:55
problem is there are no relevant markets right now at amoveobook so you need to request one
S
13:58
Sy
Hmm not the worst buy orders on qtrade, some sells aswell but nothing happening...interesting
19:08
coinpaprika requires api for coin supply in proper units, seems like moving to mVEO was little mess after all
Vampyr invited Vampyr
3 October 2018
J
Martijn Eerens invited Martijn Eerens
Z
03:30
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
I finally merged the code so that binary markets work correctly.
The problem before was that trades were all matched at the limit price instead of the batch price.
Now they are matched at the batch price.
The scalar markets are not ready yet, but it should be soon. Single thread tests are passing, I am working on the integration tests.
I finally merged the code so that binary markets work correctly.
The problem before was that trades were all matched at the limit price instead of the batch price.
Now they are matched at the batch price.
The scalar markets are not ready yet, but it should be soon. Single thread tests are passing, I am working on the integration tests.
MF
03:30
Mr Flintstone
great work!
03:31
excited about scalar markets
Z
03:31
Zack
yes, me too
AK
IP
03:59
I P
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😃, 41.8 KB
M
MF
04:10
Mr Flintstone
lol only 93 veo for sale on qtrade wat
OK
04:14
O K
In reply to this message
I wonder if these experimental changes are causing node problems now for people that haven't updated yet
Z
04:19
Zack
It has been less than an hour since the update. I doubt anyone has even done a git pull yet.
04:19
If you have open markets when you run this update, they will become broken. The new version of the smart contract is different.
OK
04:19
O K
That'd be about the time my nodes stopped working properly, yep
IP
04:20
I P
so what do we do? git pull right now
OK
04:21
O K
I don't think it's urgent for anyone running a reference node
Z
04:21
Zack
Can you be more specific? What is wrong?
OK
04:22
O K
The nodes stopped responding to api commands and is spamming trie died, potential block died, oracle_bet_tx switch types
04:22
But whatever, we will get it updated
Z
04:23
Zack
In reply to this message
It doesn't change the consensus. You only need to update if you want to run a binary market smart contract from your server.
So amoveo book might want to update.
So amoveo book might want to update.
S
Z
04:23
Zack
In reply to this message
It may have been shut down improperly.
I synced every block wih this code before updating
I synced every block wih this code before updating
S
04:23
Sy
and testnet log which is actually usefull xD
04:24
zack did you try updating a synced node or just a fresh one?
Z
04:24
Zack
Just a fresh one
S
04:25
Sy
well...might be a good idea to test it on a synced one
04:25
because thats what we all are using...
OK
04:25
O K
Probably should have tested in a testnet
04:26
With old nodes
04:26
Live and learn I guess
S
04:26
Sy
i usually update my backup node first xD
Z
04:26
Zack
oh, maybe we need a
A dependency might have changed
./rebar3 upgradeA dependency might have changed
OK
04:26
O K
Casual updates shouldn't break old nodes
Z
04:27
Zack
we use white lists in a few places, because security is more important than being safe against breaking from mix-matched libraries.
04:31
I updated one of my servers to the newest code just now.
04:31
It appears to be working normally.
04:32
I did not do
./rebar3 upgrade, but it is possible that I have upgraded the dependencies more recently than OK.
OK
04:34
O K
Has nothing to do with that
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
05:51
Mr Flintstone
wish I could ban ppl before they post
05:51
this 1 2 dude is a spammer
05:51
and if not then sorry bud change your name
IP
OK
06:05
O K
I think you're good
Z
06:08
Zack
You probably don't have to do anything.
Only if you are hosting market smart contracts does this matter for you.
Only if you are hosting market smart contracts does this matter for you.
Z
07:49
Zack
My node is staying in sync since I updated it.
C
07:58
CK
Hi Zack, I was wondering if you'd be open to doing a podcast? One of the guys from Bad Crypto, one of the most downloaded crypto podcast in the space, is interested in having you on.
MF
08:01
Mr Flintstone
that is a good idea
IP
08:03
I P
yeah, would be very cool
A
08:06
Aries
hell yea!!! love those guys
C
08:59
CK
Zack just let me know and I'd be happy to intro. Would be good to let more people know about this project
09:10
Deleted Account
I am thinking to revert Veoscan to VEO from mVEO. After all the change did not help much adoption of amoveo, and currently both exchanges keep using VEO.
JS
09:16
Jon Snow
It will help more when price is higher. It is for the long run
M
11:10
Minieep21
In reply to this message
I'd say it's time to revert. The single argument to put an end to this whole mVeo mess is BTC. If people cared about tiny valuation, BTC would be traded in Satoshis by now.
S
14:54
Sy
👍
IP
15:18
I P
lol so at first we all wanted mVeo because amoveo was like 600$ or so
15:19
now veo is 60$ and we don't want mveo because its too cheap. LMAO
15:19
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😁, 26.6 KB
S
15:19
Sy
still no
15:20
i still dont know why zack suddenly patched the node and switched to mveo after month of saying no
15:28
im pretty sure it was 3-4 ppl who wanted mveo for the quick cash, they were just really loud
15:28
and we went along once it was decided
Z
15:29
Zack
Ok seemed to think it was a good idea.
I think it doesn't really matter either way.
I think it doesn't really matter either way.
S
15:32
Sy
the visual change doesnt matter, thats true - thats why i think its stupid - it overcomplicates things on all ends
15:32
real change would have been balances * 1000, reward * 1000 but that didnt happen...ah well, reverting time
15:33
i have 63 failed payouts in the last 24h...not sure why
15:34
i dont see that many txs in the last 24h blocks either...did you break something? 😝
Z
15:37
Zack
I hope nothing is broken.
This update did merge code where only one branch had this fixed.
This update did merge code where only one branch had this fixed.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Dereek69 invited Dereek69
SillyPunts joined group by link from Group
4 October 2018
Aries invited W H
M
D
03:17
Dereek69
Heya, wassup?
S
04:16
Sy
so...my unpatched main node crashed
04:16
Z
04:16
Zack
I checked, the update we did that prevented txs from being dropped is still there.
04:17
That is weird that your node is crashing. Can you give me any more information?
04:17
In what way is it behaving different from normal? did it stop syncing blocks or headers?
S
04:18
Sy
it stopped syncing
04:18
last block was 35699
Z
04:18
Zack
both headers and blocks, or just blocks?
04:18
api:height().
S
04:18
Sy
headers are fine
04:19
35770 on api and 35699 on block
04:19
its in an infinite loop of
syncing with this peer now [-7,[-7,73,95,148,9],8080]
trade peers
get their top header
get blocks from them.
another get_blocks thread
another get_blocks thread
block organizer add
syncing with this peer now [-7,[-7,73,95,148,9],8080]
trade peers
get their top header
get blocks from them.
another get_blocks thread
another get_blocks thread
block organizer add
Z
04:19
Zack
so it broke on a round number. it wont accept 35700
S
04:19
Sy
going through the peers
Z
04:20
Zack
it keeps trying to sync, but now that it rejected the block, it can't accept it.
Do we have any pattern that happens every 100 blocks?
Do we have any pattern that happens every 100 blocks?
04:21
the number
100 occurs many times in the code
S
04:21
Sy
my backup node synced fine so...not sure if we can catch this
Z
04:21
Zack
did anything different happen between the two nodes?
S
04:22
Sy
no
04:22
didnt update either, they are running the same version
04:23
ah na, it seems like the main node is older
Z
04:24
Zack
so the slightly newer code caused it to crash
S
04:24
Sy
ah yes, i updated the backup node to current version to check if its acting up...it isnt
04:24
no, the other way around
04:24
backup node is up2date, main node is older
04:24
last commit on mainnode is 11th sep
Z
04:25
Zack
Proving that a large program will never crash is generally impossible.
As long as the crashes are infrequent, and we don't all crash at the same time, then we are still ok.
As long as the crashes are infrequent, and we don't all crash at the same time, then we are still ok.
S
04:26
Sy
well OK and me both had that problem, probably at the same time
04:26
i just didnt notice because the pool seemlessly switched to the backup node
04:26
i DID notice today because the payment ran against my stuck node and did some double spends that i am fixing right now -.-
Z
04:27
Zack
looking at the updates since sept 11, no obvious problems are jumping out at me
S
04:27
Sy
will it sync again if i update?
04:28
or is the block blacklisted or something?
Z
04:28
Zack
once a node rejects a block, the only way to get it to accept that block is by starting over from genesis.
I should probably add a command to remove blocks from the blacklist, so we don't have to waste time resyncing.
I should probably add a command to remove blocks from the blacklist, so we don't have to waste time resyncing.
S
04:29
Sy
this would help alot
04:29
config/prod/sys.config defines the cowboy ports? because there is something in the makefile aswell with sed
Z
04:30
Zack
the make file generates sys.config
S
04:30
Sy
hmm....why? :D
Z
04:31
Zack
there are 5 different ways we want to start the node.
I wanted to avoid code repetition, so instead of making 5 different config files, I made 1 template file, and then I use sed to customize the template to generate each of the 5 config files.
I wanted to avoid code repetition, so instead of making 5 different config files, I made 1 template file, and then I use sed to customize the template to generate each of the 5 config files.
04:32
the sed code is inside the make file
S
04:32
Sy
yeah found it
Z
04:32
Zack
the 5 ways:
production mode
single node tests
multi-node tests node 1
multi-node test node 2
multi-node tests node 3
production mode
single node tests
multi-node tests node 1
multi-node test node 2
multi-node tests node 3
S
04:32
Sy
changed ports to resync and stop my pool from talking to the node until its done xD
Z
04:33
Zack
yes, I notice that it syncs faster if I stop the pool from spamming the node while syncing
Z
05:33
Zack
ive been thinking of making a new repository on github. this will use the code for amoveo, but I will strip out all the oracle stuff, and the channels stuff.
Maybe some other community will use some of our software, and we can benefit from what they find out.
Maybe some other community will use some of our software, and we can benefit from what they find out.
05:34
basic coin was one of my most popular projects, I was thinking of using that repository for this.
S
05:37
Sy
hmm might work
05:40
i am unsure how to move the lightnode out tho since it relies on cowboy but we dont want to maintain two repos either
Z
05:41
Zack
the light node doesn't depend on cowboy.
S
05:41
Sy
the "bestcase" for the lightnode is for ppl to clone it to their local computer and just browse the html
Z
05:41
Zack
you can open wallet.html with any browser
S
05:41
Sy
yes but it is served via cowbow on the full node
05:41
but tbh...remove it from the current code, move the html js into a seperate repo, if someone wants to host it they have to run some webserver, shouldnt be a problem
05:41
but it would be gone from all normal nodes...which might actually be good
Z
05:41
Zack
right, we should do that too
S
05:43
Sy
can you maintain a list of nodes on github somehow? or use veoscan? the lightnode could pull that list on load and give you the nodes in a dropdown since it would be empty otherwise if run locally
Z
05:44
Zack
I guess javascript was a poor choice for writing this light node. I should probably do one in erlang.
S
05:44
Sy
that would break it on local machines tho
05:44
js and html is fine
Z
05:44
Zack
there is a place near the top where you can put ip addresses of full nodes yes
05:44
Ideally different people would maintain different lists of IPs
05:45
you can try connecting the light node to different servers to see which has the most accumulative work
05:45
it would be cool if the light node automatically scanned different ips to find the one with the most work.
S
05:45
Sy
most work = highest height?
Z
05:45
Zack
not necessarily
S
05:46
Sy
how do you query most work then?
Z
05:46
Zack
if the difficulty is lower, then it takes more blocks to make the same work
05:46
when the light node syncs headers, it keeps track of the accumulative work and displays it next to where it displays the height.
S
05:46
Sy
hmm but syncing headers costs time
05:47
so you cant do this on every load
Z
05:47
Zack
it is so quick, especially if we do monthly checkpoints
S
05:47
Sy
i will put the wallet on my todo list ^^
Z
05:48
Zack
it would be a nice upgrade if the light node kept a copy of the headers on the hard drive to put less stress on the network
S
05:48
Sy
easily possible
Z
05:49
Zack
if I wrote a light node in erlang, I would end up reusing a lot of code from the full node.
So I would have to make a 3rd repository for the shared libraries between them.
So I would have to make a 3rd repository for the shared libraries between them.
S
05:49
Sy
unless you can do a standalone release for windows with gui, dont waste your time
05:50
we go web for everyone or standalone applications for linux, mac and windows, either way it needs a gui
05:50
and we both know thats not your passion :)
05:50
and since compiling on all those systems sux and the average user cant compile himself, html + js is the easiest solution
Z
05:51
Zack
I could write the back end for the light node in erlang, and then anyone could wrap it up with a gui for linux mac or windows
S
05:51
Sy
it would still have to be an easy download, run, working solution
Z
05:51
Zack
I could do it in python
S
05:51
Sy
better :)
05:52
but whenever i have to do any gui i try to use html, fastest and easiest to use and everbody can help me make it better
Z
05:52
Zack
then we would have chalang written in 3 different languages.
05:53
I can probably connect python to the existing light wallet gui
S
05:53
Sy
the list of oracles is an 8081 command correct?
Z
05:53
Zack
yes
05:53
it is internal
05:53
maybe we can make it external, I can check if you want
05:55
oh, api:oracles could end up reading a lot of stuff off the hard drive. I think we can't make it external immediately. But we could probably keep some meta data in ram, and send chunks at a time, if you really need it.
S
05:56
Sy
na np, i parse the blocks anyway so i can look for oracle_create and then query the light node for details
05:57
i got that one on my todo list aswell so i can track oracles and display them on the explorer
AK
05:58
A K
Anyone did any calc on how many concurrent open oracles are supported? Practically
Z
05:58
Zack
you can display oracles on a server by reading data from the api, you don't have to scan blocks
S
05:58
Sy
i dont run a node on the explorer
05:58
so no internal api
05:59
plus no offense but i dont want to rely on your outputs, i want to record and find stuff myself as much as possible
Z
06:00
Zack
In reply to this message
that makes sense.
It is like the benefit of having multiple implementations of a blockchain, but with much less work.
It is like the benefit of having multiple implementations of a blockchain, but with much less work.
06:02
In reply to this message
yes, I have done some calculations related to this.
* amount of hard drive consumed as number of oracles grow
* lack of space in blocks to open, bet, and close the oracles.
* amount of hard drive consumed as number of oracles grow
* lack of space in blocks to open, bet, and close the oracles.
AK
06:04
A K
Are they published somewhere?
Z
06:05
Zack
hard drive space is about (N*(164 + 4096*log16(N))) bytes
Where N is the number of oracles that exist.
Where N is the number of oracles that exist.
AK
06:06
A K
Open or all?
Z
06:06
Zack
all, this is for a completely full node without sharding
AK
06:07
A K
Aha, thanks
Z
06:07
Zack
so 1000000 one million oracles, would use like 20 gigabytes
06:07
but if we had 20 shards, then each node would only be storing 1 gigabyte
06:08
I think it is in some notes buried in the code somewhere
06:08
Then the second part, we can store about 600 txs per block with the current governance settings.
IP
AK
06:09
A K
Veocash with big blocks ;)
IP
06:09
I P
i mean who the fck does not like fast blocks
Z
06:09
Zack
The entire process of running an oracle usually takes at least these txs: new_oracle_tx, oracle_bet_tx, oracle_close_tx, oracle_winnings_tx, oracle_unmatched_tx.
5 txs per oracle
5 txs per oracle
AK
06:10
A K
Practically oracle_bet will dominate
Z
06:10
Zack
In reply to this message
miners who aren't in the biggest mining pool.
miners with slow ping.
miners with slow ping.
06:11
In reply to this message
not necessarily.
the nash equilibrium is to have 1 bet if it is a true/false result, and 0 bets if it is a bad-question result.
the nash equilibrium is to have 1 bet if it is a true/false result, and 0 bets if it is a bad-question result.
06:12
so at the fastest rate, we could fit a little over 100 oracles in every 10 minutes.
But that would prevent us from using Amoveo for anything else, so more reasonably, we would want oracles to use up less than 20% of the space.
That limits us to only 2 oracles per minute.
But that would prevent us from using Amoveo for anything else, so more reasonably, we would want oracles to use up less than 20% of the space.
That limits us to only 2 oracles per minute.
AK
06:12
A K
Wait but if we bet on smth like "veo/USD on 1 Jan 2020 > 10000" how is this equilibrium achievable?
IP
06:13
I P
In reply to this message
true but blockchain users should like fast blocks. there is that one semiscam chinese ico with some scalable pbft dpos solution which on testnet of 1000 nodes were able to hold like 120k tps and 1 second block time. I don't mind having slow blocks in amoveo but fast block experience was nice with that testnet.
Z
06:13
Zack
In reply to this message
there is a timer in the oracle so you can't start betting or resolution until a particular block height.
AK
06:14
A K
But then we're not accumulating knowledge before that block
DV
06:14
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
having payment channels it's not so important to have fast blocks
IP
Z
06:15
Zack
In reply to this message
we accumulate knowledge from the prediction market smart contract in the channels.
The oracle is just for reporting results to the blockchain so that it can be a judge of our contracts.
The oracle is just for reporting results to the blockchain so that it can be a judge of our contracts.
AK
06:15
A K
Ahhhh indeed
06:15
Yes yes yes
06:15
👍
Z
06:17
Zack
I strongly recommend against locking your veo into a smart contract that wont resolve until 2020.
Not having access to your veo for an entire year probably costs more in opportunity cost than the value of the veo.
Not having access to your veo for an entire year probably costs more in opportunity cost than the value of the veo.
S
06:17
Sy
its one way to stop you from selling.... xD
06:17
i mean imagine veo at 10k in 2020 and he sold at stupid 2k in 2019 😂
DV
06:18
Denis Voskvitsov
you can always make a fork and make it popular :)
06:18
like ethereum did…
Z
06:18
Zack
every couple of months we find some security vulnerability in the smart contracts.
Trying to maintain smart contracts that have been expired for months gets difficult.
I would have to add a versioning system, and teach the full node to deal with all the versions.
Trying to maintain smart contracts that have been expired for months gets difficult.
I would have to add a versioning system, and teach the full node to deal with all the versions.
AK
06:19
A K
How does ETH deal with it? Or Eos?
Z
06:19
Zack
how does eth deal with what?
AK
06:20
A K
With patching smart contracts and versioning
S
06:20
Sy
im not sure how they resolved the wallet contract someone wrecked
06:20
didnt it lock a few million?
AK
06:20
A K
Parity? They let it be
06:20
Did nothing
S
06:20
Sy
so there is your answer zack, shit happens xD
Z
06:20
Zack
Some smart contracts on eth have a developer key that lets you update code, but most users dislike this feature.
So lots of people make un-modifiable contracts on ethereum, and re-publish the entire contract every time they want to change any part of it.
So lots of people make un-modifiable contracts on ethereum, and re-publish the entire contract every time they want to change any part of it.
06:21
Amoveo smart contracts aren't hard coded onto the blockchain like Eth. So it is much easier for us.
AK
06:21
A K
Ah so errors in contract application code, not vm or compiler
Z
06:22
Zack
right.
the VM is getting stable, we have implementations in 2 languages, and haven't had any changes in a long time
the VM is getting stable, we have implementations in 2 languages, and haven't had any changes in a long time
06:22
the compiler is so simple, I don't think it can have a bug
06:23
it is more like an assembler than a compiler. converting words into opcodes directly.
DV
06:24
Denis Voskvitsov
is chalang smart contract can be seen as pure function btw? if so, can it be formal verified somehow?
06:25
though I guess then we need a formal proof for compiler too
Z
06:27
Zack
it is basically a pure function yes.
You could query information from the blockchain that changes over time, like the block height.
We are optimized for this. Chalang doesn't have any gotos, it has opcodes for functions.
So you can analyze the assembly code in polynomial time.
You could query information from the blockchain that changes over time, like the block height.
We are optimized for this. Chalang doesn't have any gotos, it has opcodes for functions.
So you can analyze the assembly code in polynomial time.
DV
06:31
Denis Voskvitsov
ok. it might be worth to have a toolkit like https://github.com/kframework (it supports solidity) for chalang in future.
06:33
not solidity, sry, EVM bytecode
06:35
off-topic, it is Hacktoberfest event going. so if someone (Zack perhaps) will open some issues on github and label them with «hacktoberfest» tag they can attract new developers and bring a bit more publicity to the project.
IP
06:37
I P
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
☝️, 47.8 KB
Z
06:49
Zack
In reply to this message
Formal verification is not useful for Amoveo.
"formal verification" means proving that 2 different programs are doing the same thing.
It is an interesting problem of computer science which has no practical applications that I am aware of.
Researchers have an interest to convince you to use the tools they studied. Otherwise their thesis defense in formal verification would be worthless.
Instead of getting into the formal verification fad, Amoveo is designed using classic time-tested techniques for writing code that is easy to verify.
The VM language is designed to make it easy to write programs where the number of possible execution paths is as few as possible. That way a proof of the security of the program can be as short as possible.
"formal verification" means proving that 2 different programs are doing the same thing.
It is an interesting problem of computer science which has no practical applications that I am aware of.
Researchers have an interest to convince you to use the tools they studied. Otherwise their thesis defense in formal verification would be worthless.
Instead of getting into the formal verification fad, Amoveo is designed using classic time-tested techniques for writing code that is easy to verify.
The VM language is designed to make it easy to write programs where the number of possible execution paths is as few as possible. That way a proof of the security of the program can be as short as possible.
DV
06:56
Denis Voskvitsov
> "formal verification" means proving that 2 different programs are doing the same thing.
it also can mean correct-by-construction program, so the output bytecode is fully consistent with original formal specification.
i can't argue with the fact that formal verification has little use in real world tasks, but I think it still can be used in some applications, like basic smart contracts.
again, I don't try to force you into implementing chalangVM semantics in K, ofc. it just can be a good addition if someone will make it.
it also can mean correct-by-construction program, so the output bytecode is fully consistent with original formal specification.
i can't argue with the fact that formal verification has little use in real world tasks, but I think it still can be used in some applications, like basic smart contracts.
again, I don't try to force you into implementing chalangVM semantics in K, ofc. it just can be a good addition if someone will make it.
06:59
it can be used at least on new VM implementations along with usual tests.
07:00
though since Erlang is available even on MIPS-based MCU's (learned that just now) it's also not so important.
Z
07:00
Zack
proving that the bytecode matches some orginal formal specification.
This is useful if you have a magical bug-free formal specification that you want to precisely target.
But in practice, there is no "formal specification".
All code is buggy.
If you prove that 2 programs are identical, then that means they share the same bugs. It doesn't make them bug-free.
This is useful if you have a magical bug-free formal specification that you want to precisely target.
But in practice, there is no "formal specification".
All code is buggy.
If you prove that 2 programs are identical, then that means they share the same bugs. It doesn't make them bug-free.
MF
07:04
Mr Flintstone
who watches the watchmen
Z
07:08
Zack
https://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/hh/thompson/trust.html
This is one of my favorite articles about the limitations of computer verification
This is one of my favorite articles about the limitations of computer verification
Deleted invited Deleted Account
13:20
Deleted Account
Should the community decide to cancel the oracle on the grounds that the way it works right now is unethical?
13:23
Normal oracles only verify a known truth, so it doesnt make sense to bet untrue. For this oracle there is no such mechanism. Someone will lose 200+ veo here, or 600+.
13:23
This is not skin in the game, rather more like fomo3d
Z
13:24
Zack
I think we should honor the oracle.
Everyone participated voluntarily, plus, I won a veo.
Everyone participated voluntarily, plus, I won a veo.
13:25
Deleted Account
heh
Z
13:25
Zack
the 600 veo bet was never matched. I think about 100 veo was matched
13:26
Deleted Account
the total matched «bad question» i belive is more than 200 veo.
S
13:26
Sy
There is nothing unethical about it imho, they want the value changed, they put their veo on that decision
13:26
its 167
13:26
Deleted Account
ok
S
13:26
Sy
and yes, those are matched and lost
Z
13:27
Zack
there is still like 13 hours left I think
13:27
Deleted Account
i think fomo3d is unethical, because its a ganbling system that will make certain people lose their money for no reason
Z
13:27
Zack
I fixed the binary oracle, so if someone makes a bet in the governance oracle again, then this time we can make a futarchy oracle to find out how to resolve the governance oracle correctly.
13:28
Deleted Account
im probably not representing mainstream opinion here :)
Z
13:28
Zack
since no one is making that bet now, it seems like it is closing at the correct state
13:28
600 veo of free money, sitting on the table for anyone who thinks that keeping the block reward high will be good for the price of veo
13:29
that is a lot of evidence that lowering the reward will be good for the price
S
13:29
Sy
there is nothing free about those 600, stop misleading
13:29
if you match those 600 to another state and they bet again your 600 are lost, simple as that
13:29
until one side runs out of money
Z
13:30
Zack
this time we can make a futarchy oracle, so it should work better now
13:30
Deleted Account
this is also a fault with the oracle mechanism in this particular case. lowering the reward might be an effective short term way of increasing veo price
Z
13:30
Zack
like how we made that futarchy oracle to change the block retargeting
S
13:30
Sy
thats no ones vault, ppl deicde
13:30
how would another oracle ontop of the first one change anything?
13:30
Deleted Account
so a market would be biased to select the inferior decision
S
13:31
Sy
you just need more veo to get your result because you have to bet in the first one for the direction you want and then in the second one that you actually want the change you bet for...lol?
Z
13:31
Zack
you can ask the oracle any question, if you think some other question besides the price of veo is more important, we can try that out
13:32
Deleted Account
I am just pointing at a deficiency, I dont have any answers right now, sorry
S
13:32
Sy
its like real life even tho zack doesnt like it, the powerfull decide...
Z
13:32
Zack
if the futarchy market tells us to report a certain way to the oracle, then we can safely do a hard update to prevent the oracle from closing in any other state. Since the community has already expressed it's preference through the futarchy market.
S
13:33
Sy
the upside of a market is that everyone can participate, not like the oracle
13:33
thats actually true
Z
13:33
Zack
bringing a community to consensus is all about compromises.
S
13:33
Sy
it is still gambling and betting and ppl can loose their money by expressing their opinion...thats the difference to democracy i guess ^^
Z
13:35
Zack
futarchy isn't about expressing your preferences.
People participate in markets to make a profit, because they think they know more than the average participant. They are selling information.
Then the market tells us that information in the form of a price.
People participate in markets to make a profit, because they think they know more than the average participant. They are selling information.
Then the market tells us that information in the form of a price.
13:35
Deleted Account
I belive the model of a market betting on a future price, then using the oracle to implement this result is much better, perhaps a final solution
S
13:35
Sy
im not sure if thats what he said...you will still be able to bet in the gov oracle i think
13:36
the market bet is to determine if the community wants this change aswell
Z
13:36
Zack
the governance oracle does technically allow for betting, and it is important that it is possible to bet for game theoretic reasons. But that nash equilibrium is supposed to be that only one person makes an oracle-bet-tx.
13:39
if more than one person bets, then it is a sign that something is going wrong.
S
13:39
Sy
hmm why not stop it there? if someone opens up a gov oracle you automaticly create a market for it on the first bet
if type true
"Do you want value xy to be increased?" if false "decreased" then the market decides how the oracle closes?
if type true
"Do you want value xy to be increased?" if false "decreased" then the market decides how the oracle closes?
13:39
why put money on 2 ends?
13:40
especially if you can still bet into the oracle you can switch states, how will the market reflect that?
Z
13:40
Zack
I don't understand the question
13:40
Deleted Account
the market must end before the oracle.
Z
13:40
Zack
the state of the oracle depends on which kinds of bets are sitting in the order book
13:44
we would run the futarchy market for a while, look at the price, and then report to the oracle based on the price we read.
it doesn't matter if the futarchy market is still running, or if the price changes again in the future.
it doesn't matter if the futarchy market is still running, or if the price changes again in the future.
13:45
I guess if the price changed, it would switch to bad-question?
13:46
The oracle and the futarchy market in the channels are both markets with bets, and it makes it so hard to talk about these things
13:46
we use the same language to describe both parts
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Magpie invited Magpie
[
20:35
[Riki]
Prediction markets featured in a croatian tech magazine, mentioning Amoveo
20:36
20:36
20:36
F
20:49
Fića
its great that Amoveo is recognized as viable solution!
21:11
Deleted Account
why is price up? did they announce lower inflation rate
S
21:13
Sy
dunno maybe ppl stopped selling?
J
21:13
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
In reply to this message
no, look up. Article in croatian tech magazine 😋
S
21:14
Sy
😎
ŽM
21:16
Živojin Mirić
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21:17
And it's not some cheap web magazine, it's in print and well respected in financial circles
21:17
Very much success
S
21:19
Sy
only 85 veo sells and 2.8 btc buy...thats new
21:19
qtrade
21:23
in my experience if the price is going up and nobody knows why somebody is pumping...
Š
21:25
Šea
Ivica todoric?
21:25
Cant think of any one else at the moment
J
21:26
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈 via @gif
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MF
22:11
Mr Flintstone
30 blocks until oracle can be closed in the “false” state. this means the block reward would go down
5 October 2018
DV
00:19
Denis Voskvitsov
rolled out update of http://amoveo.exan.tech wallet
— mobile version
— autosync headers and balance check
— minor UI fixes
with the next update we're ready to include it into main repo. or separate it from full node in its own repo finally.
if you want to use it from local computer right now you can download it from https://github.com/exantech/amoveo/tree/feature/new-ui and start with
— mobile version
— autosync headers and balance check
— minor UI fixes
with the next update we're ready to include it into main repo. or separate it from full node in its own repo finally.
if you want to use it from local computer right now you can download it from https://github.com/exantech/amoveo/tree/feature/new-ui and start with
wallet.html as usual.
Z
00:57
In reply to this message
Block reward goes down, so the price of Veo goes up.
Simple supply and demand.
Plus the binary markets are fixed again.
Simple supply and demand.
Plus the binary markets are fixed again.
OK
01:11
O K
Dishonest individuals may choose to ignore the possibility that instability in the block reward may create uncertainty on the demand side, and that the demand could in theory fall more sharply than the supply. Still 'simple' supply and demand, of course
Z
01:13
Zack
The givernance oracle only failed this one time. Now we have a plan on how to connect it to a futarchy market so it will work correctly.
B
01:53
Ben
does that mean the code for gov oracles is already changed?
01:53
or are you talking about possibility's?
S
02:05
Sy
why did it fail? it will change the value as planned just like it did all the times before...
Z
02:08
Zack
We did not need to change any governance oracle code.
The solution is to run a futarchy market to ask the question, and then use the governance oracle to report the result.
The solution is to run a futarchy market to ask the question, and then use the governance oracle to report the result.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
02:10
Sy
doesnt it work the other way around?
Z
03:07
Zack
They run at the same time
MF
03:11
Mr Flintstone
3 more blocks until 35904
А
MF
03:12
Mr Flintstone
the oracle that changes the block reward can be closed
Z
MF
03:13
Mr Flintstone
so, if someone calls oracle close and it gets included in 35904, we would expect the block reward for 35905 to be less?
IP
03:13
I P
Nice, lets do it!
AK
03:13
A K
There are already no sellers on exchanges
Z
AK
03:13
A K
What a change after a dump
MF
03:14
Mr Flintstone
ppl stopped dumping veo very recently it seems
03:14
at least in the exchanges
IP
03:15
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MF
03:18
Mr Flintstone
I am interested to see to what extent the miners will react immediately
03:18
since the block reward change time isn’t deterministic, you would need to be paying attention
03:18
Z
03:19
Zack
yes, it will be interesting to watch the hash rate and price after the change in reward
03:19
closing the oracle is profitable, I want to be the person to make the tx
03:20
it's a race
MF
03:20
Mr Flintstone
why is it profitable? aside from if you had existing winning bets
Z
03:22
Zack
oh, my mistake.
The person who forms the oracle makes a bet that always ends up losing.
The person who closes the oracle isn't making a bet.
The person who forms the oracle makes a bet that always ends up losing.
The person who closes the oracle isn't making a bet.
MF
03:22
Mr Flintstone
get those tx out guys, we’re at 35903
03:23
guess it isn’t a race then lol
Z
03:23
Zack
oh, the oracle close fee is negative.
So you get some veo
So you get some veo
MF
03:24
Mr Flintstone
from where? it just prints it?
Z
03:24
Zack
0.00152000 veo reward I think
03:24
the fee for making the oracle was positive, and the fee for closing it is negative, so it cancels out
MF
03:25
Mr Flintstone
I c
Z
03:27
Zack
If we made the new_oracle fee lower, or made the oracle_close reward higher, then it would be possible to print veo from nothing.
I wonder if we should put some guards in the governance mechanism to prevent this from happening.
I wonder if we should put some guards in the governance mechanism to prevent this from happening.
MF
03:28
Mr Flintstone
do we have any checks while syncing to make sure the total amount of veo is less than all the block rewards?
03:28
this has me thinking about the recent CVE in bitcoin
Z
03:28
Zack
Sy wrote a tool for that
MF
03:29
Mr Flintstone
we should place special focus on tx types with negative fees imo
03:31
Deleted Account
i dont see the need for negative tx fees. they pose a point where a loophole may be found to very bad results
MF
03:31
Mr Flintstone
if we can have the option to pay more than the minimum positive tx fee, we don’t have the same kind of option to pay “less” than the negative fee right?
Z
03:31
Zack
If the fee is set to 1/600th of a VEO, and you can only fit about 600 veo in a block, then at worst they could only create 1 veo per block.
And the blocks would look very strange being totally full.
And the blocks would look very strange being totally full.
03:32
In reply to this message
the tx fee has 2 parts. the governance fee, and the miner fee.
if you set the tx fee to 0, then that means you are paying the miner nothing, and the miner has to cover the entire governance fee to include your tx in a block.
if you set the tx fee to 0, then that means you are paying the miner nothing, and the miner has to cover the entire governance fee to include your tx in a block.
MF
03:32
Mr Flintstone
got it
03:32
thanks
03:33
I think we did the math and it was like more than 50 veo have already been burned from governance fees?
Z
03:33
Zack
I don't remember
MF
03:34
Mr Flintstone
I think I’m thinking of something else, nvm
Z
03:36
Zack
30k blocks, probably about 4 tx per block on average.
120000 /600 = 200 veo
but we lowered the fee at some point.
so 50-100 veo burned so far is a rough estimate
120000 /600 = 200 veo
but we lowered the fee at some point.
so 50-100 veo burned so far is a rough estimate
B
04:04
Ben
i was not able to close the oracle, i get an error message
04:04
account does not exist
Z
04:05
Zack
there is an oracle-close tx sitting in the tx pool
04:05
I got distracted and someone beat me to it
B
04:05
Ben
i think it is the one from sy
Z
04:06
Zack
BP3W made the tx
04:07
BP3W4rXjyaZgLbEydYqGIuolbnnh9+E/LLsXA+v/RPuJWzzcCZUAF3O8GcMlpg5/8wk2P5CoeC110HKnPeCcMVA=
IP
04:07
I P
nice BP3W
B
04:08
Ben
thats me
Z
04:08
Zack
I think this is the same person who made the big 300 veo bets?
B
04:08
Ben
but i got the error message
04:09
Z
04:09
Zack
Ben is very interested in Amoveo, I feel like I should make you a mod or something
B
04:09
Ben
i made also a 2K veo Bet :P
IP
04:10
I P
In reply to this message
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Z
04:10
Zack
wow, I thought I was misreading that, or there was a bug in veoscan.
04:10
amazing
IP
04:10
I P
Ben is a Veo whale lol
B
04:10
Ben
was just an insurance bet and i was hoping someone try to match the 600 open veo last second
Z
04:11
Zack
good strategy
IP
04:11
I P
that was a good call yeah
B
04:11
Ben
like the first time the 100
S
04:13
Sy
why is there no oracle_close tx in any block?
Z
04:13
Zack
it was still in the tx pool last I checked
S
04:14
Sy
okay
04:14
i thought we missed it somehow
MF
04:18
Mr Flintstone
why wouldn’t it have been included in 35905
B
04:18
Ben
i posted it too late
04:24
oracle is closed now
AK
04:24
A K
Wait what does it mean
04:24
Reward stays the same?
M
04:25
Mike
Bad question?
MF
04:25
Mr Flintstone
it means the block reward dropped
AK
04:25
A K
Dropped - OK
Z
04:25
Zack
by only about 30%
AK
04:25
A K
As it should have?
M
04:26
Mike
Okay, interesting
Z
04:26
Zack
I think veoscan might be calculating balances wrong after oracles
MF
04:26
Mr Flintstone
yep, I was about to say the same
04:26
or something weird is going on
Z
04:27
Zack
I think something went wrong. This could be a disaster.
MF
04:28
Mr Flintstone
light node shows what looks like a correct balance
04:28
or at least more correct than veoscan
Z
04:28
Zack
my light node and full node are saying that he only has 200 veo
04:29
same as veoscan
04:29
oh, my mistake
04:29
nothing is wrong
IP
04:29
I P
In reply to this message
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Z
04:29
Zack
Ben
you need to do an oracle_winnings and an oracle_unmatched tx to get your veo out of the market
you need to do an oracle_winnings and an oracle_unmatched tx to get your veo out of the market
J
04:29
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
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IP
04:29
I P
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Z
04:30
Zack
sorry guys
MF
04:30
Mr Flintstone
funds are safu?
Z
04:30
Zack
everything is fine.
just make sure to do oracle_unmatched and oracle_winnings if you made any bets of type false.
just make sure to do oracle_unmatched and oracle_winnings if you made any bets of type false.
S
04:35
Sy
trees:dict_tree_get(governance, GovName).
04:36
whats the name of the block reward to check?
04:36
or rather, the correct command do to so
Z
04:36
Zack
you can use a 1 for govname
04:37
or
block_reward
S
04:37
Sy
64139933
Z
04:37
Zack
it is an atom, so no "quotes" or 'single quotes'
04:37
so 0.6414 veo per block
OK
04:38
O K
What's the dev reward and total?
Z
04:38
Zack
dev reward is still 1/6th of total
04:39
0.6414 * 6 / 5 = 0.76968 total
0.12828 is dev reward
0.12828 is dev reward
04:42
770 mVEO per block
B
04:44
Ben
i should have collected everything
Z
04:46
Zack
on my full node it says ben has 948 veo, but on veosscan it says he has 4000
B
04:47
Ben
i hope veoscan is right :P
Z
04:47
Zack
I see an tx in the tx pool for over 4000 veo
04:47
that seems incorrect
04:48
Ben bet 2000, but they were unmatched
04:50
Deleted Account
lets make fork with 1 veo reward)
Z
04:52
Zack
@Jbreezy0
did 2000 veo get made from nothing for ben? or did he have 4000 before we started?
did 2000 veo get made from nothing for ben? or did he have 4000 before we started?
B
04:52
Ben
wait a block, then i have all my belonging on my address again
04:52
and can say if it is correct
Z
04:54
Zack
When i count up all the txs that sent money to Ben, I am only getting like 2676 veo. But now he has over 4000
MF
04:55
Mr Flintstone
the light node is saying bp3 has 9 mveo
Z
DV
04:56
Denis Voskvitsov
my light node says it has ~4620 veo
Z
04:56
Zack
it seems like 2000 veo got duplicated.
If this is the case, we will probably have to revert some history to prevent this
If this is the case, we will probably have to revert some history to prevent this
04:57
If it is broken, we need to alert the exchanges to halt trading
OK
04:57
O K
Maybe we can have the participants burn the amount if we know who they are
MF
04:57
Mr Flintstone
4619998.76563
04:58
that is mveo
Z
04:58
Zack
Am I doing math wrong? can anyone else confirm that 4620 veo is too much?
05:01
oracle_winning and oracle_unmatched are each 14 lines of code. So at least there isn't much space for a bug to hide.
B
05:01
Ben
maybe someone tried to match my bet last second?
Z
MF
05:02
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
so you definitely have too much veo now, assuming the 2k bet didn’t get matched?
B
05:02
Ben
i dunno yet, can say that with next block
MF
05:02
Mr Flintstone
ok
B
05:03
Ben
my fund do not show yet in my light node
Z
05:04
Zack
35866 had the 2000 veo bet
05:04
and I can't find any bets after that point
B
05:10
Ben
05:11
looks like something went wrong
MF
05:12
Mr Flintstone
what is best way to fix this problem? as long as this veo doesn’t move, I’m not sure we need a rollback.
05:12
can’t we just fork the balance back to where it should be?
IP
05:12
I P
well, need to patch bug and burn excess veo
Z
05:12
Zack
OK is right, we can probably convince Ben to send the excess to a burn address, if not, we can do a hard fork to lock up some of his veo.
It takes at least a week to run an oracle, so we have a little time to deal with this
It takes at least a week to run an oracle, so we have a little time to deal with this
B
05:13
Ben
i guess the problem exist in oracle_unmatched
Z
05:13
Zack
first off, we should calculate what Ben's real balance should be
MF
Z
05:14
Zack
I am thinking maybe oracle_unmatched and oracle_winnings are both correct, and oracle_bet left the state messed up so they both paid out instead of just one
B
05:14
Ben
it think i got unmatched returned double
DV
05:15
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
shouldn't it use _negative part of oracle_bets:reward return instead of taking order amount of the same AID as the oracle_winning tx?
IP
B
05:15
Ben
i'm not planning on a hit and run, so lets first tackle the Problem, and then sort how to solve the "to big balance" Problem
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
05:15
Zack
I will read Ben's balance at each block, since each tx was on a different block, we can know how much each tx paid
B
05:17
Ben
btw. there was also another "winner"
IP
05:17
I P
In reply to this message
well, there is not enough liquidity to do hit and run anyways😃😃 and also i think veo will be much more valueable in the future so yeah. need to fix bug first
B
05:17
Ben
who bet 300 VEO
MF
05:18
Mr Flintstone
that wasn’t matched though right
05:18
but they might be doubled
05:19
BGO+
B
05:19
Ben
looked like for him it worked correct
05:19
he got 347 veo back
Z
05:19
Zack
Ben moved all the veo
05:20
is it on an exchange?
IP
05:20
I P
hm, so basically it has to do with the last unmactched bet
B
05:20
Ben
no
05:21
it's back on my address where it was coming from
05:21
i dont want to have it sitting on the Full Node
05:21
i don't trust the Fullnode
05:21
therefore i try to avoid having funds there
Z
05:22
Zack
right, makes sense
B
05:22
Ben
if you want to monitor that funds : BIOB9YNmH3OHcmKtbatRnBX69ORN9wKrNd6aE3yCrE/9vvF5ceepaTTY/xM023aFfzTs5V9u9kj2W8WR/BTPLi8=
05:22
i will not move it
MF
05:22
Mr Flintstone
that address has been rich list for a long time too so I believe him
Z
05:23
Zack
That address sends and receives many times. it looks how an exchange's address would look.
B
05:23
Ben
no it looks like one of the biggest miner :P
05:23
at least back in the days :P
IP
05:23
I P
In reply to this message
yeah, especially when fullnode runs on a rented vps. cold storage is way better