Amoveo ♥🧿
Previous messages
Next messages
18 August 2018
OK
08:35
I will still participate in the larken rose YouTube market if you make it
08:35
2000 mveo
08:36
Maybe I should submit it to amoveobook's new submission idea form
Z
08:36
Zack
I think we should get him to post a tweet first, so he believes it works
OK
08:36
O K
Good idea
08:58
Deleted Account
Added markets/oracles/channels info to veoscan top page.
Total of ~3400 USD are in channels.
https://veoscan.io/
Total of ~3400 USD are in channels.
https://veoscan.io/
MF
10:47
thanks
Anakin joined group by link from Group
Sebastiano invited Sebastiano
T
17:44
Topab
I was just talking to a friend with background in derivatives, which I only know a little about. He told me that there are index created in which people bet of its future price. Bets are settle at the milisecond level, how is a decentralize oracle ever going to handle this?
Maksym Goo invited Maksym Goo
Z
19:29
Zack
In reply to this message
Bets at millisecond timing are bad. That is how they cheat users like us.
They call it high frequency trading, but it is actually front running.
They call it high frequency trading, but it is actually front running.
19 August 2018
AK
00:23
A K
Eh no it's not
00:24
Front running has a very clear definition, is illegal and immoral
00:24
HFT is none of these three
00:25
Research shows the more fine grained price discovery is, the better prices society gets
Z
00:27
Zack
criminal who use HFT to steal from the public use some of their ill-gotten gains to fund research.
AK
00:27
A K
☹️ replace hft with crypto currency
Z
AK
00:28
A K
Ok I will watch
00:29
HFT bashing is a pet peeve of mine sry, and I know a thing or two about the space, so
Stanley invited Stanley
Z
01:02
Zack
I learned about a project called "Radar Relay".
They are advertising themselves as if they can provide secure off-chain markets, so I tried contacting them to learn more. I was hoping that we could reuse some of their ideas for Amoveo.
I tried contacting them.
Turns out they aren't even near to achieving this goal, their project seems like a scam.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/radar_relay.md
They are advertising themselves as if they can provide secure off-chain markets, so I tried contacting them to learn more. I was hoping that we could reuse some of their ideas for Amoveo.
I tried contacting them.
Turns out they aren't even near to achieving this goal, their project seems like a scam.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/radar_relay.md
[
01:44
[Riki]
In reply to this message
Saw the reply?
Whitney:
This trolling article misses the difference between order collisions and front running. Zack is no longer allowed to post here because he was attempting to gain attention for his own channel/projects, ignoring information in conversation and being condesending . I've reached out to him directly and offered to discuss things further. An offer he has so far not accepted. Your comment will be deleted shortly because of the link it contains. If you have any question about this feel free to reach out to me direclty.
Whitney:
This trolling article misses the difference between order collisions and front running. Zack is no longer allowed to post here because he was attempting to gain attention for his own channel/projects, ignoring information in conversation and being condesending . I've reached out to him directly and offered to discuss things further. An offer he has so far not accepted. Your comment will be deleted shortly because of the link it contains. If you have any question about this feel free to reach out to me direclty.
Z
01:47
Zack
I am accustomed to being considered a threat everywhere I go. Nothing new.
Z
02:39
Zack
I am not the best at explaining this stuff, it is true.
It is her job to be able to answer basic questions about the design, or to contact someone who can.
It is her job to be able to answer basic questions about the design, or to contact someone who can.
M
Z
03:32
Zack
Better off warning her instead of posting it without warning.
Z
05:02
Zack
I am thinking I should focus on making the CFD smart contract next.
Where we will use like 8 oracles to express a number in binary, and pay out an amount of veo in proportion to this number.
That way people can invest in VEO with leverage.
So when VEO goes up 10%, your money doubles.
Where we will use like 8 oracles to express a number in binary, and pay out an amount of veo in proportion to this number.
That way people can invest in VEO with leverage.
So when VEO goes up 10%, your money doubles.
MF
05:08
Mr Flintstone
It seems like simplest implementation Would be like a bounded cfd
05:08
where both sides only post IM
Z
05:08
Zack
I wonder what I should do if one of the bits says "bad-question"
05:08
it isn't likely to happen
MF
05:10
Mr Flintstone
think it makes sense to bundle the 8 oracle tx broadcasts into one command
Z
05:12
Zack
yes, good idea
05:12
maybe we should teach multi_tx how to make oracles
Zhen Cao invited Zhen Cao
M⛏
12:29
(settling a bet)
T
14:15
Topab
In reply to this message
My concern was not with that. Was more with the oracle. A decentralized oracle can't resolve at the second scale, not even minute. A decentralized derivatives can't on that feature replace those types of derivatives that need milliseconds feed. That's also a substantial market
14:23
Not that Amoveo should fulfill that use. Learning the other day about how some derivatives work and realizing this
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
19:32
Zack
Millisecond markets only exist to rob the customers with high frequency trading.
Amoveo is honest, not designed to rob eah other.
Instead of continuous markets, we only have discrete markets. We match trades in single price batches.
Amoveo is honest, not designed to rob eah other.
Instead of continuous markets, we only have discrete markets. We match trades in single price batches.
19:50
Deleted Account
@pgonza consider a Tesla stock futures market. You buy shares that will some time in the future be exchanged to veo according to an oracle describing the tesla/veo price. These shares may be traded in ms time in a state channel. The market price will follow the real price, only dependant on how fast people place orders to match the real price as observed by market participants
19:52
The price of these shares should follow the tesla share price closely, otherwise you could buy/sell at a profit
19:53
The market price is settled by the participants during the lifetime of the market, and the oracle settles it only once when the market ends
19:55
Right now zack has implemented markets with batched order matching. I believe this is to prevent frontrunning. But this is an implementation decision, and someone could create a market to allow for ms trading
20:11
Deleted Account
@zack how will amoveo solve the issue with leveraging when the «collateral» is less (or close to being less) than the current loss of a leveraged position? Normally this would lead to the position being closed automatically. If there are not enough orders in the market to do this, the owner of the market must take this loss. This could make running a market quite risky...
Z
20:39
Zack
In reply to this message
milisecond trading is a scam.
If it is that fast, you will get front-run.
If it is that fast, you will get front-run.
20:40
In reply to this message
Each contract has margins.
so a USD synthetic asset would track the price of USD until we hit the margin.
Past the margin it tracks the price of VEO.
so a USD synthetic asset would track the price of USD until we hit the margin.
Past the margin it tracks the price of VEO.
20:42
so if we started with 1 mVEO = $1, and the margin was a factor of 2x. and the price of VEO drops by a factor of 3x, then your contract which was originally worth $30 is now only worth $20.
If the price of VEO had only fallen by 2x, then your contract would still be worth $30.
If the price of VEO had only fallen by 2x, then your contract would still be worth $30.
Z
21:19
Zack
We had a serious difficulty spike at 29700.
Maybe instead of taking the exponential weighted average of the last 20 blocks, we should look at the last 30 or 40.
Maybe instead of taking the exponential weighted average of the last 20 blocks, we should look at the last 30 or 40.
21:22
Deleted Account
Is this correct: starting rate R USD/VEO 1.0, leverage 2x, amount $30, margin also $30.
I assume the leveraged position would have to be matched by an equivalent sell position (lets assume it is also a leverage order of $30 with margin $30). Lets call the buyer A and seller B.
If R drops to 0.5 that means that A’s contract is worthless. At the same time B’s contract is worth $60.
At this point it seems B’s leveraged order must be capped? If I was B I would not expect that.
At the same time, if R later increased to 0.6, A’s contract must not gain value, as there should have been a margin call before the contract value is negative...
Im confused
I assume the leveraged position would have to be matched by an equivalent sell position (lets assume it is also a leverage order of $30 with margin $30). Lets call the buyer A and seller B.
If R drops to 0.5 that means that A’s contract is worthless. At the same time B’s contract is worth $60.
At this point it seems B’s leveraged order must be capped? If I was B I would not expect that.
At the same time, if R later increased to 0.6, A’s contract must not gain value, as there should have been a margin call before the contract value is negative...
Im confused
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
23:35
Zack
In reply to this message
In this example there are only $60 in the channel. So it is impossible to have a contract in this channel worth more than $60.
a margin call is when your broker calls you up and tells you that you either need to sell your trade or give him more money. Leverage is coming because the broker is loaning you his money to gamble with. Margin calls happen because the broker won't let you risk his money.
Amoveo doesn't have brokers. You don't borrow or lend money in amoveo.
In amoveo the leverage is programmed into the smart contract directly. We don't have to use debt to make leverage.
So there is no margin call in amoveo.
If the price of Veo exceeds the margin, then your contract stops tracking the price of usd, and starts tracking the price of Veo.
If the price of Veo rises to be inside the margin again, then your contract starts tracking the price of usd again.
a margin call is when your broker calls you up and tells you that you either need to sell your trade or give him more money. Leverage is coming because the broker is loaning you his money to gamble with. Margin calls happen because the broker won't let you risk his money.
Amoveo doesn't have brokers. You don't borrow or lend money in amoveo.
In amoveo the leverage is programmed into the smart contract directly. We don't have to use debt to make leverage.
So there is no margin call in amoveo.
If the price of Veo exceeds the margin, then your contract stops tracking the price of usd, and starts tracking the price of Veo.
If the price of Veo rises to be inside the margin again, then your contract starts tracking the price of usd again.
23:48
Deleted Account
I think i understand now. Thanks
23:51
The margin call in this context means create a new contract with more veo in the channel
20 August 2018
00:08
Deleted Account
With the method you describe, i would argue that once B’s contract is worth $60, A is borrowing funds risk free. A’s contract is worth zero, but if the price rises at a later time, the contract is suddenly worth money.
IP
00:10
I P
if you like margin calls you can use bitmex
00:10
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😲, 13.7 KB
00:10
x100 leverage best way to get rekt
00:11
Deleted Account
Actually the leverage is of little importance. It could be 1x
AK
Z
00:16
In reply to this message
The amount of Veo in a channel is fixed.
Whatever smart contract you make, the total Veo in the channel is unchanged.
Whatever smart contract you make, the total Veo in the channel is unchanged.
AK
00:16
A K
%% when algo adjusts up/down
00:17
%% of estimated diff change since last update
00:17
50 / 25 now
00:17
Upper/lower bands on amoveo.tools
Z
00:18
Zack
Oh, you want to make the bounds bigger than a factor of 2.
AK
00:20
A K
To change faster
00:20
Narrower bounds
00:22
With narrower we would have had already adjusted down
00:30
Deleted Account
It would be nice if B after having a contract worth $60 could opt to replace A’s position with fresh orders from the order book, as long as the new orders are priced such that A’s contract value at that rate R is zero
00:31
In that case, A did not have any position anymore
Z
01:10
Zack
In reply to this message
Narrower bounds would make the issue we discuss worse, not better.
To reduce random fluctuations, we can either increase the bounds, or we can increase the size of the sample we take to estimate hashrate.
To reduce random fluctuations, we can either increase the bounds, or we can increase the size of the sample we take to estimate hashrate.
01:11
Deleted Account
How big a problem is this? The hashrate seems to be fluctuating at ~ 89 blocks, but it could be random... or an outside influence
Z
01:12
Zack
We can tell it is random by looking at which pools are finding blocks, and summing up the hashrates of each pool.
OK
01:12
O K
Someone with 1TH pops onto amoveopool a few times per day
01:12
Not enough to actually earn themselves anything though
01:13
They are only giving away their hash rate to loyal AP miners
01:13
Deleted Account
Thats good news for stable miners right?
01:13
I dont mind :-P
OK
01:13
O K
We have graphs now on the stats page, you can see their patterns...
Z
01:15
Zack
Cool graphs. I didn't know before now
OK
01:16
O K
It's new, I'll get the open api for the graphs posted... Eventually
M⛏
01:37
Moe ⛏
It would be cool if we could look at longer time frames on our hash graphs on amoveopool
01:37
Maybe you can through the api
01:45
Deleted Account
Why this channel is about hashrate? I don't get it why this topic is overweighted - I remember times when it was possible to mine on CPU and people were buying GPU like crazy since one could get 100% return in a week or so
IP
01:46
I P
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
👍, 39.1 KB
01:47
Deleted Account
Mining should be least interesting topic to discuss - as people buying the coin are driving mining hashrate up
01:49
You cannot outsmart the economy by clever diff adjustments
Z
02:46
Zack
Cryptocurrency is a financial tool.
Finance is a slightly negative-sum game.
The expected result of participation is a small loss.
Finance is not for gaining wealth. It is for hedging risks, to minimize the odds of taking a big loss
Finance is a slightly negative-sum game.
The expected result of participation is a small loss.
Finance is not for gaining wealth. It is for hedging risks, to minimize the odds of taking a big loss
02:52
Deleted Account
Disagree - market in general is growing due to innovation & better use of resources - if you invest in SP500 and hold enough to reduce effects of economic downturns you win
02:52
Who loses?
02:53
02:57
Insurance is not for gaining wealth. It is for hedging risks, to minimize the odds of taking a big loss
02:58
But also it's a tool for gaining wealth https://www.businessinsider.com/warren-buffett-insurance-float-2017-4
02:59
Z
02:59
Zack
If you hold a basket of stocks instead of dollars, you are protecting yourself from depreciation in value of the dollar.
Which is usually a good move, since they keep printing more dollars.
Which is usually a good move, since they keep printing more dollars.
03:00
Deleted Account
holding stocks is not zero sum game - as you own productive assets producing real wealth
03:00
Insurance is important but it's not only thing existing on the financial world
03:01
For some wild reasons equity exist
03:01
Z
03:01
Zack
Stocks are a debt based instrument. Your money is doing work somewhere.
Blockchains cannot enforce debt, we can only do collateralized relationships.
Blockchains cannot enforce debt, we can only do collateralized relationships.
03:03
Deleted Account
Huh, how? stocks are debt based instrument?
Z
03:03
Zack
You loan money to a firm in the hopes of getting more back later. It is like debt
IP
03:04
I P
not reallyt
03:04
if you buy treasuries that is a debt instrument
03:04
Deleted Account
But if I loan them $1000 and they are growing 10x then they need to pay me back 10x
IP
03:05
I P
with stocks you kind of buy share of the company. of course you expect profit but buying a share does not equal debt
03:06
Deleted Account
Equity can be viewed as a call option the firm, where exercising the option requires that the firm be liquidated and the face value of the debt (which corresponds to the exercise price) paid off.
03:07
Debt - either paid back or not but giving no upside if company perform better
Z
03:07
Zack
If I make a call option, that doesn't increase the resources available to the company the same way that buying a stock would.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
03:08
Deleted Account
equity can be viewed as call option, not call option as equity
03:08
;0
MF
03:08
Mr Flintstone
in terms of enforcement of the cap structure equity is similar to debt
03:09
Deleted Account
But calling equity debt instrument is misleading
Z
03:09
Zack
We can't put equity on on a blockchain for the same reasons we cannot put debt onto a blockchain
03:10
Deleted Account
totally different payoff - for debt there is no value capture if company performs better than expected
Z
03:10
Zack
These relationships aren't cryptoeconomically enforceable.
03:10
Deleted Account
"We can't put equity on on a blockchain for the same reasons we cannot put debt onto a blockchain" doesnt mean that equity doesn't exist
Z
03:11
Zack
My assertion is that blockchain tools are only useful for hedging against loss, not for making profit.
I never said that equity does not exist.
I never said that equity does not exist.
03:12
Deleted Account
What you are saying is true in blockchain realm while not true in offchain + government world
03:12
Z
03:13
Zack
Yes. We are talking about blockchains.
03:13
Deleted Account
Companies exists because they have to be single entity that deals with the government and can tap into public market (also controlled / regulated by the gov)
03:14
Not only reasons but right to sue and be sued is prerequisite for business as without it you cannot enforce legal contracts
Z
03:16
Zack
Options are very popular for derivatives today.
This is because for an option, the market doesn't have to trust the customer. The customer has the option to act on the trade or not.
It is a technical limitation of our current enforcement system that we can overcome using blockchain.
This is because for an option, the market doesn't have to trust the customer. The customer has the option to act on the trade or not.
It is a technical limitation of our current enforcement system that we can overcome using blockchain.
03:17
Deleted Account
But option on what exactly?
03:17
Options on equity and debt instruments?
03:18
What will be base instrument if you cannot have either equity or debt on the blockchain?
Z
03:18
Zack
It is a type of derivative where you have the option to make a trade at a pre-agreed price.
Like if I agree to buy 1 pound of chocolate from you for $10 in a month at a meet up, but you leave me the freedom to change my mind and not buy the chocolate if I don't show up to the meet up.
Like if I agree to buy 1 pound of chocolate from you for $10 in a month at a meet up, but you leave me the freedom to change my mind and not buy the chocolate if I don't show up to the meet up.
03:19
Blockchains have fully collateralized smart contracts.
03:19
Deleted Account
How many people would be trading such thing?
03:19
People need to trade some narrow group of things for liquidity on options to emerge
03:20
Also - you still need somebody to enforce physical delivery of option
Z
03:20
Zack
In this example, only you and I are making a chocolate options contract.
03:20
Deleted Account
What If I will sell option for chocolate and never deliver it?
Z
03:21
Zack
You asked what an option was, so I gave a hypothetical example.
03:21
Deleted Account
It's sometimes cheaper to have enforcement over off-chain contracts than to use blockchain
Z
03:23
Zack
Blockchains can't enforce chocolate delivery at all.
All smart contracts are cash settled type derivatives.
All smart contracts are cash settled type derivatives.
03:23
You don't literally deliver barrels of oil. The smart contract just sends an amount of Veo equal to the value of the oil
03:26
Deleted Account
Ok, so it's possible to use Amoveo to speculate on Apple stock without exposure to Amoveo?
Z
03:28
Zack
Yes. Amoveo could make a synthetic asset of apple stock. Or cocoa prices.
03:28
Then you could hold an asset that stays the same value as Apple stock.
03:29
Deleted Account
Woudn't option expiration screw that peg?
Z
03:30
Zack
Usually, we use other kinds of derivatives besides options on amoveo.
03:31
If the derivative expires, just buy a new one.
03:31
You can switch to a longer lasting derivative every few days, then it would never expire while you are holding it.
03:32
Deleted Account
Aren't fees would be the problem?
03:33
Holding Apple stock cost you nothing (except initial purchase and broker fee) - having to buy deriviatives every few days would incur transaction / liquidity cost etc..
Z
03:33
Zack
This is all off chain in the channels.
Anyone can run a channel node, so the market price for channel fees will be driven down as the network grows.
Anyone can run a channel node, so the market price for channel fees will be driven down as the network grows.
03:34
The cost of buying derivatives off-chain is free.
It costs to have a channel open based on how long it is open and how much Veo is in the channel.
It costs to have a channel open based on how long it is open and how much Veo is in the channel.
03:34
Selling derivatives is free as well.
And you can keep reusing the same channel for many derivatives. No on-chain fees.
And you can keep reusing the same channel for many derivatives. No on-chain fees.
03:36
Deleted Account
So say somebody created a channel node with $1000 worth of veo in it - then i buy Apple stock that increased 1000x overnight - there is no way that i will get that
Z
03:37
Zack
You can pay for a channel with that much Veo locked in it, so you could win a prize like that. but it would be expensive to pay someone to lock up so much Veo.
Or you could keep making bigger channels and moving your bets to the bigger channels all night.
Or you could keep making bigger channels and moving your bets to the bigger channels all night.
03:39
Deleted Account
But what if nobody would create a channel for Apple stock and I want to still have exposure for it?
Z
03:40
Zack
You can only bet if someone else is betting the opposite way.
03:43
Deleted Account
So one needs to be effectively market maker
03:58
Deleted Account
ie. borrow amoveo and create markets in same asset - right?
04:01
Disclosure: not trolling, wondering why people are discussing hashrare instead of creating market for attractive traded asset so veo would be needed for channels and price would increase and thus security
04:07
Deleted Account
Someone will be the effective market maker because the alternative is the option of seling expensive derivatives then buying the real stuff, then wait for the derivative to expire
Z
04:39
Zack
if there is no market, then there are no derivatives.
Running a market is profitable.
Running a market is profitable.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
09:10
Zack
Ive been thinking about settling these oracles for displaying binary information. There is this unfortunate scenario.
b0111 + 1 = b1000
The two values 0111 and 1000 have every oracle flipped, and they measure adjacent values.
So small disagreements about the value the oracle measures can cause big disagreements in the outcomes of the oracles.
Maybe we should encode the value differently from normal binary, that way numbers that are close together will have most of the oracles in agreement.
Or maybe we should force the oracles to settle in order, from most significant bit to least significant.
b0111 + 1 = b1000
The two values 0111 and 1000 have every oracle flipped, and they measure adjacent values.
So small disagreements about the value the oracle measures can cause big disagreements in the outcomes of the oracles.
Maybe we should encode the value differently from normal binary, that way numbers that are close together will have most of the oracles in agreement.
Or maybe we should force the oracles to settle in order, from most significant bit to least significant.
09:43
Deleted Account
12:17
Deleted Account
Why cant we have a value oracle?
13:05
Deleted Account
The bits could have value eg 1.5^(bit position) instead of 2^(bit position). This would allow some fuzziness so that many bit sequences could represent the same value.
The problem with this is that you can no longer express each bit oracle by itself, it will depend on the previous (higher valued) bit oracles
The problem with this is that you can no longer express each bit oracle by itself, it will depend on the previous (higher valued) bit oracles
13:58
Deleted Account
Suggestion for value oracle: each bet is placed as a range min..max, and the value settles at avg(min, max). The span S is (max-min). The wager of the bet is W. Each bet in the oracle buys shares value W/(S+maximum_span/1000). New orders must have W>[twice the last order]. The winner of the oracle is the order to have most shares, summing its own shares and those orders with ranges enclosing its own range. Other bets are losing bets.
13:59
Something like that...
14:00
The maximum span part is where you specify how accurate the oracle should be. After a certain accuracy, you are not rewarded for decreasing the range anymore
14:16
Deleted Account
Alternatively a minimum span may be implemented
T
15:27
Topab
The critical part of non collateralized stable coins are oracles. I have heard this from several people https://medium.com/nu-blockchain-group/the-stablecoin-vulnerability-that-needs-more-attention-c8412c17025e
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Дмитрий invited Дмитрий
Z
19:14
Zack
In reply to this message
Range bets are complicated.
I think I will just make a standard contract for difference CFD to start.
I think I will just make a standard contract for difference CFD to start.
19:16
In reply to this message
Amoveo can't have non collateralized stable coins.
We use cfd for stable coins.
We use cfd for stable coins.
T
19:37
Topab
But Amoveo oracle could be used for a non collateralized stable coin
A
21:28
Aries
🙂 August 20th 2011 a wonderful day in the history of Bitcoin
we had "The World's First Bitcoin Conference"
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6150.0.
we had "The World's First Bitcoin Conference"
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6150.0.
OK
21:33
O K
:D
Z
22:28
Zack
In reply to this message
Amoveo smart contracts only have control over money that is inside of the channel.
All contracts are fully collateralized.
There is no way to have a smart contract end up with negative money.
All contracts are fully collateralized.
There is no way to have a smart contract end up with negative money.
MF
22:56
Mr Flintstone
I am skeptical of non-collateralized stablecoins
Z
23:03
Zack
yes. Debt is inherently not trustless.
It doesn't make sense to use a blockchain to build a mechanism that is not trustless.
It doesn't make sense to use a blockchain to build a mechanism that is not trustless.
21 August 2018
J Bluebs invited J Bluebs
AK
Deleted invited Deleted Account
01:53
Deleted Account
@zack did you think about my idea of having an option of switching partners for a margin trade? That is in effect an semi-automatic way of simulating debt. It might work in other circumatances as well...
01:54
It reduces the need for collateral imho for a common use case
Z
02:01
Zack
you can move a bet from one path to another.
Each person buying a contract has different needs. Some people are willing to pay for bigger margins, some people don't need big margins and would rather save money and not pay for them.
Each person buying a contract has different needs. Some people are willing to pay for bigger margins, some people don't need big margins and would rather save money and not pay for them.
Z
04:13
Zack
Does anyone have a hacker news account?
Would be great if they posted about amoveo on this page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17799346
Would be great if they posted about amoveo on this page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17799346
04:30
Deleted Account
I believe for «my» strategy to work, it is necessary to have functionality to exit a bet without oracle resolving if you can replace the opposite bet with another fresh order from the order book. Something like: 1 the market maker sees that (by using price from an unmatched order) one of the parties in a margin bet is «broke» 2 the market maker makes a channel containing only the veo from the unmatched order. A code is generated to verify that such funds are now new collateral. 3 all collateral from the first channel is transferred to the new channel. 4 the original channel ceases to exist
04:31
If we are not understanding eachother fully here its probably dt my limited understanding of how a party might exit a margin trade otherwise
04:46
On a fundamental level i can only see to ways to fairly end a margin trade channel, either by an oracle resolving, or by using orders at market price
Z
05:25
Zack
If you buy both sides of a contract, they cancel out and turn back into Veo.
Z
09:43
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/priv/scalar_oracle_bet.fs
I rewrote the oracle page of the smart contract to read 10 oracles as a binary.
I think we can keep the market half of the contract unchanged.
I rewrote the oracle page of the smart contract to read 10 oracles as a binary.
I think we can keep the market half of the contract unchanged.
Z
10:11
Zack
I wonder how many people are interested in investing in Amoveo with leverage?
Do you want to go long VEO?
We can only make stable-coins if other people are going long VEO.
Do you want to go long VEO?
We can only make stable-coins if other people are going long VEO.
MF
10:13
Mr Flintstone
leverage is capital efficient
10:14
im game
10:15
plus you can get paid to go long
11:12
Deleted Account
It's weird to think about amoveo monetary policy as credible or not credible because it's changed by greatest value = so if it will be changed only if it's increasing overall prospects of the currency
11:12
Very weird to reason about
T
12:08
Topab
In reply to this message
Don't understand. Why only if other people are going long VEO we can make stable-coins?
Z
12:11
Zack
A channel has the same number of Veo come out as went in. The net effect of a channel to both parties is the same as holding Veo for the duration of the channel.
It is a zero sum game. If one participant gains Veo, the other must have lost.
It is a zero sum game. If one participant gains Veo, the other must have lost.
12:12
Deleted Account
But person gaining VEO may be losing in USD terms and another person may be losing less
12:13
It's like borrowing dollars against veo?
MF
12:13
Mr Flintstone
you can hedge your veo usd price risk too
13:03
Deleted Account
«If you buy both sides of a contract, they cancel out and turn back into Veo.» i think this is not strictly true with the scheme you proposed for margin trading. Eg:
You buy 10 VEO worth USD/VEO at leverage 1x with collateral/margin 1 VEO, and the market maker matches you with an opposite order. After a while USD/VEO rate is 1.1, you now have a contract worth 2.0 VEO. That contract will never be worth more than 2 VEO because thats all the VEO the channel contains. If the price USD/VEO should fall, you are still party in a contract where the value could decrease. So you opt to exit the contract.
You place a «sell» margin order of 11 VEO to cancel the initial «buy» order. The collateral/margin for the new order is 1 VEO.
At this point, you need additional collateral as you have not yet realized the first order (this is the first problem).
Next problem is: how can these two orders match eachother? Initially you had one contract that would lose VEO if USD/VEO falls, and otherwise be of value 2 VEO. The new order will gain VEO with falling USD/VEO or lose VEO with rising USD/VEO.
We need to implement the margin call imho. And the way to do this would be to swap the other participant B in the initial order with someone. In this swap process, B’s contract must cease to exist, so you are no longer stuck with a one sided liability if the rate USD/VEO should fall.
You buy 10 VEO worth USD/VEO at leverage 1x with collateral/margin 1 VEO, and the market maker matches you with an opposite order. After a while USD/VEO rate is 1.1, you now have a contract worth 2.0 VEO. That contract will never be worth more than 2 VEO because thats all the VEO the channel contains. If the price USD/VEO should fall, you are still party in a contract where the value could decrease. So you opt to exit the contract.
You place a «sell» margin order of 11 VEO to cancel the initial «buy» order. The collateral/margin for the new order is 1 VEO.
At this point, you need additional collateral as you have not yet realized the first order (this is the first problem).
Next problem is: how can these two orders match eachother? Initially you had one contract that would lose VEO if USD/VEO falls, and otherwise be of value 2 VEO. The new order will gain VEO with falling USD/VEO or lose VEO with rising USD/VEO.
We need to implement the margin call imho. And the way to do this would be to swap the other participant B in the initial order with someone. In this swap process, B’s contract must cease to exist, so you are no longer stuck with a one sided liability if the rate USD/VEO should fall.
13:14
The nonlinearity introduced dt channel balance lead to these orders not being possible to balance/cancel out trivially
Deleted invited Deleted Account
17:00
Deleted Account
I got another SIM card
17:01
cheers
Z
19:43
Zack
In reply to this message
You can try canceling trades in opposite directions in the light node now. This is already a supported feature.
This is how derivatives work everywhere.
This is how derivatives work everywhere.
А
S
21:09
Sy
Not that i know off, why?
А
21:21
Андрюхин
Had some troubles about 2 hours ago
S
21:27
Sy
Block finds seem pretty consistent, didnt notice anything
Z
22:23
Zack
I'm thinking of doing a blockchain speed run video.
I could write a minimal blockchain on a livestream as quick as possible, giving explanations of all the parts as I go.
Content like this could bring attention to amoveo.
I could write a minimal blockchain on a livestream as quick as possible, giving explanations of all the parts as I go.
Content like this could bring attention to amoveo.
OK
22:26
O K
Sounds great to me, I love that kind of content
22:40
Deleted Account
Would love to see something like that, will it be implemented in Erlang?
T
22:40
Topab
JPMorgan launching Roar platform for crowdsourced data - Business Insider
https://www.businessinsider.com/jpmorgan-launching-roar-platform-for-crowdsourced-data-2018-8
https://www.businessinsider.com/jpmorgan-launching-roar-platform-for-crowdsourced-data-2018-8
Z
23:09
Zack
In reply to this message
Erlang is nice because it is simple enough for a wide audience to understand what is happening. And because I know it so well.
OK
23:09
O K
I would suggest using long variable names for the audience
Z
22 August 2018
Z
00:17
Zack
If I do a blockchain speed-run, I think I would end up spending 3/4 of the time building the Merkel tree database.
I guess I should use my existing Merkel tree library, and build everything else.
I guess I should use my existing Merkel tree library, and build everything else.
DY
02:38
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
I'm pretty sure you can show do much more interesting videos for getting attention to amoveo. But overall I like how you want to get the word out :0
Z
02:40
Zack
like what? I am open to ideas
DY
03:23
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Depends, do you think this can be classified as marketing?
IP
04:09
I P
Educational videos about all aspects of amoveo
04:09
Why amoveo? How to mine amoveo? How to buy/sell amoveo? How to transact, use oracles and marketd
04:10
Would be nice to have those for general public
04:10
People are not that bright overall, videos help a lot
OK
04:11
I say, do the videos and don't think too hard about it
04:11
Let us know please if you'd like editing
04:11
I'm sure many of us can help with that
04:12
In reply to this message
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
170.4 KB
DY
06:09
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Zack If it is marketing there could be many more efficient channels.
"Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe." - Abraham Lincoln
So I believe it would be better to explore the channels before going after them.
Traction (the book) helped me a lot in my previous startup. But reading the whole book would be a waste of time. I suggest reading this summary: https://zapier.com/blog/acquire-customers/
Let us know if/when you've read the summary and want to proceed exploring channels.
"Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe." - Abraham Lincoln
So I believe it would be better to explore the channels before going after them.
Traction (the book) helped me a lot in my previous startup. But reading the whole book would be a waste of time. I suggest reading this summary: https://zapier.com/blog/acquire-customers/
Let us know if/when you've read the summary and want to proceed exploring channels.
06:18
Zack you could also easily grab the low hanging fruit. For example; your blog posts (or github posts) are really good. But the downside is you're writing them in github.
1. The github interface decreases amount of people willing to read it
2. SEO could be easily done hence increasing potential
So I suggest moving your posts to medium & cross post it around the internet (hackernews, steemit, get hackernoon to publish it..)
If you don't think that this is a good use of your time (which I would agree) I have already created a medium for Amoveo & was going to republish your content. (ofc with proper credit)
Let me know what you think.
1. The github interface decreases amount of people willing to read it
2. SEO could be easily done hence increasing potential
So I suggest moving your posts to medium & cross post it around the internet (hackernews, steemit, get hackernoon to publish it..)
If you don't think that this is a good use of your time (which I would agree) I have already created a medium for Amoveo & was going to republish your content. (ofc with proper credit)
Let me know what you think.
Z
06:22
Zack
republishing articles has benefits, but it is a pain to have to maintain the same data in more than one location.
There are only so many people who we can reach by preaching the benefits of Amoveo.
There is a large demand for people who want to understand blockchain more deeply, and not many resources.
There are only so many people who we can reach by preaching the benefits of Amoveo.
There is a large demand for people who want to understand blockchain more deeply, and not many resources.
DY
06:28
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
I'm not sure if there is lack of resources: https://www.udemy.com/build-blockchain/
What is something "only" you can do/show to people?
What is something "only" you can do/show to people?
Z
06:29
Zack
video lectures are different from a speed run
A
07:00
Aries
Amoveo was mentioned in a podcast. 🙂
07:01
IP
07:04
I P
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
👍, 39.1 KB
MF
OK
08:00
Deleted Account
paul thinks amoveo better than augur or gnosis cause he mentioned it first? 😉
08:00
although amoveo oracle "supposedly decentralized"
Z
08:04
Zack
the oracle is on-chain. it is as decentralized as it gets.
08:05
the market is not decentralized, but it is trustless.
08:06
Deleted Account
pauls votecoin contraption is so just dumbly complicated?
Z
08:29
Zack
votecoins is a poor design choice, but it was still a huge achievement when Paul invented it.
Coming up with an example to show how oracles are possible was important, it motivated the community into finding other better designs.
The problem with votecoins is that the total volume of bets in all the markets needs to be lower than the market cap of votecoin at all times.
Keeping the votecoin market cap high enough so that the market is useful is expensive. We would have to pay big fees to votecoin holders somehow.
Coming up with an example to show how oracles are possible was important, it motivated the community into finding other better designs.
The problem with votecoins is that the total volume of bets in all the markets needs to be lower than the market cap of votecoin at all times.
Keeping the votecoin market cap high enough so that the market is useful is expensive. We would have to pay big fees to votecoin holders somehow.
08:36
Deleted Account
if understand amoveo oracle then it sounds very simple
08:36
correct choice is one with most money piled?
08:37
and incorrect loses money
Z
08:45
Zack
no, that is not the amoveo oracle.
We use the betting mechanism only for escalation.
Once enough money is at stake, then Nakamoto consensus determines the outcome of the oracle.
We use the betting mechanism only for escalation.
Once enough money is at stake, then Nakamoto consensus determines the outcome of the oracle.
08:51
Deleted Account
yes escalation is used to get truth to the chain without manual involvement from miners
08:51
?
Z
08:58
Zack
escalation is used because Nakamoto consensus can only determine the outcome of the oracle once enough money is at stake.
08:59
Deleted Account
hhmm ok 👍
08:59
thx
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
12:30
Zack
I wrote the scalar market smart contract and got the tests to pass.
Next I will make a javascript interface and api to handle scalar markets.
Next I will make a javascript interface and api to handle scalar markets.
AK
12:45
A K
How does it resolve?
12:45
Like an exchange auction?
12:45
Auction Market
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/auctionmarket.asp
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/auctionmarket.asp
Дмитрий Бойко invited Дмитрий Бойко
Z
20:03
Zack
In reply to this message
We are using smart contracts. So usually you and your partner agree on the final outcome of the channel and split up the money.
If you disagree, then the blockchain can process the smart contract to calculate how to distribute the funds.
If you disagree, then the blockchain can process the smart contract to calculate how to distribute the funds.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
20:55
hi~
20:55
Deleted Account
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😱, 24.7 KB
20:55
Deleted Account
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
🙂, 19.7 KB
OK
20:59
O K
Welcome :)
Deleted invited Deleted Account
N
23:06
Deleted Account
因为我们在做事
Yurii Filipchuk 🤔 invited Yurii Filipchuk 🤔
OK
23:19
O K
Lots of new people today, how'd you hear about amoveo?
DY
YF
23:34
Yurii Filipchuk 🤔
First rule of the fight club...
OK
23 August 2018
OK
DK
00:32
Deve Kliman
so i’m looking at veoscan.io… just wanting to understand… the price it’s showing for veo is $0.11 each… is that for 1/1000 of what people got a couple months ago, or some other fraction, or what?
Z
00:35
Zack
mVEO is about $0.11
VEO is about $110.
VEO is about $110.
00:36
kind of like how there is 1000 mL per 1 L. (miliLiter, Liter)
DK
00:36
Deve Kliman
ok so mVEO is 1/1000 of a veo
00:36
got it 🙂
Z
00:36
Zack
"mili" is a standard prefix used internationally to mean 1/1000th
DK
00:36
Deve Kliman
is there a chart somewhere of the price over time, like cryptocompare or coinmarketcap?
00:37
yeah
Z
00:37
Zack
I think there is no good chart
DK
00:38
Deve Kliman
i guess it’s not really a priority although seeing it on one of those two sites would just be kinda nice
00:38
thing is that price is a relatively shallow order book… i doubt one could buy a lot at that price
M⛏
00:42
Moe ⛏
Well mveo at @ $0.11 is very undervalued IMHO.
Z
00:42
Zack
if you leave an order in the order book, it is likely to get matched.
MF
00:43
Mr Flintstone
bids have been getting filled lately
00:43
even if you have a big bid
DK
00:44
Deve Kliman
hm maybe i’ll keep an eye on that. i was buying raiblocks when it was 1800 sat and it took weeks to fill my orders… then that coin went up to like $34 each from $0.18
Z
00:44
Zack
We have a promotion. if you bring your friends from AE to sign up in this channel, then you can participate in this channel for 60% less than the normal price.
DK
00:44
Deve Kliman
crypto is interesting that way
MF
DK
00:45
Deve Kliman
can i get 50004848% off too?
Z
00:45
Zack
no. this promotion is only 60% off, even if you invite multiple friends.
00:45
but if your friends bring friends, they can get 60% off too.
M⛏
00:46
Moe ⛏ via @gif
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
130.7 KB
DK
00:46
Deve Kliman
if this was before the mayans i am not sure if i could be able to figure that out.
A
Ivek invited Ivek
DK
00:47
Deve Kliman
ok i made that guy join. i want my 60% bonus now.
Z
00:47
Zack
what is your veo address?
DK
00:47
Deve Kliman
wait you’re not paying me in %’s?
00:48
i want %’s not some coin.
00:48
i have to find my % wallet
00:49
Deleted Account
ae and veo are now completely different project now right?
00:49
ae is like a dapp platform?
A
00:50
Aries
ok seriously we need to implement an Entrance Exam
00:50
into the group
DK
00:50
Deve Kliman
Well, does that include grammar?
[
00:56
[Riki]
Amoveo is like AE on steroids but 100 times cheaper.
MF
00:56
Mr Flintstone
ae gave up on trustless oracles right
[
00:57
[Riki]
Soon ae will give up on ae
00:57
Deleted Account
it seems like they are building a dapp platform
00:58
i saw 'godfather of eth ' in marketing
00:58
lol
A
00:58
Aries
the godfather of bullshit
MF
00:58
Mr Flintstone
he removed that from his twitter bio
A
00:58
Aries
you mean Yani?
00:58
Deleted Account
if i remember correctly
00:58
yes
MF
00:58
Mr Flintstone
that was a huge red flag
A
00:59
Aries
this is the only Godfather I respect
00:59
Deleted Account
in chinese it means godfather of eth
A
00:59
Aries
MF
00:59
Mr Flintstone
fitting that that is the 420th photo in this group
Z
00:59
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/progress_reports/June_2018.md
I compare Amoveo with several competitors here
I compare Amoveo with several competitors here
A
00:59
Aries
i know!!!!!
MF
Z
01:00
Zack
I didn't do any for July or August
MF
01:01
Mr Flintstone
oh maybe I was looking at something else
Z
01:01
Zack
Amoveo has finished practically every technology goal towards a useful prediction market platform.
The other projects are all stalling hard.
So there isn't much to change for the next month's version.
The other projects are all stalling hard.
So there isn't much to change for the next month's version.
MF
01:02
Mr Flintstone
what is last building block remaining for amoveo? Turn on sharding?
01:02
we don’t even need sharding yet
Z
01:03
Zack
we wont need sharding for a while.
01:04
Scalar markets will be a pretty exciting achievement. I think Augur supports them too?
MF
01:04
Mr Flintstone
yeah, but it isn’t built out of binary reporting right ?
01:05
I think the number itself is reported
Z
01:05
Zack
yes, their oracle does it differently
01:06
It is also time consuming to look into all these different projects to find out if they have achieved any new goals since my last report.
01:10
Deleted Account
amoveo is for financial derivatives. so it will primarily be used for prediction market? not other types of derivatives?
Z
01:11
Zack
Amoveo works for almost any kind of financial derivative, including prediction markets.
01:11
Deleted Account
oh
01:12
including bitmex?
01:12
leveraged trading?
Z
01:20
Zack
it will soon have leveraged trading. I wrote the smart contract already, now I am working on the api and user interface.
01:21
You can use contract for difference on Amoveo to hold an asset that stays the same value as Bitcoin.
01:24
Deleted Account
wow, i thought it was just prediction market, i didnt expect that too
01:25
but with just a good predition market, it will be good enough i think
MF
01:30
Mr Flintstone
well, financial assets can act like prediction markets
01:34
Deleted Account
but blockchains are famous for being slow tho
Z
01:35
Zack
I ran some tests on the new leveraged CFD smart contracts. They work well.
01:37
I think the scalar markets will be our most popular dapp yet.
01:38
Deleted Account
havent even heard of scalar i will google it
NC
01:38
Nic Carter
where can I find a price feed for amoveo?
Z
01:39
about $0.12 per mVEO today
NC
01:39
Nic Carter
what's the outstanding supply?
01:40
nvm found it
MF
02:03
In reply to this message
decentralization is very expensive, which is why we only use it in amoveo when we absolutely need it
02:03
most of the time when you use amoveo, you will be interacting with a centralized but trustless server
02:10
Deleted Account
cerntralized but trustless?
MF
02:15
Deleted Account
thanks!
OK
M⛏
Moe ⛏ invited Solar_Powered
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
05:06
Mr Flintstone
200 veo for sale at 0.0204 on qtrade
05:07
pretty big sell order
NC
05:08
Nic Carter
best exchange for veo?
IP
05:11
one is veo/eth, other is veo/btc
T
Z
10:42
Zack
It looks like there are 10 oracles ready to be bet on and closed
24 August 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
04:45
Should I hire them to make a video for us?
04:47
Deleted Account
hahaha
Z
[
04:50
[Riki]
they should be our first ico
04:51
its like inception
A
Z
04:52
Zack
They have a quote from someone at SEGA, but I can't find any evidence of this person existing.
I researched the name "Amoveo" a lot before choosing it.
These guys are saying they have been using it since 2016.
I researched the name "Amoveo" a lot before choosing it.
These guys are saying they have been using it since 2016.
C
04:53
CK
Zack If you want to go on one of bigger podcasts in the space can definitely connect you there
Z
04:54
Zack
I get so nervous on video.
I was thinking I would just keep harassing random competitors.
I was thinking I would just keep harassing random competitors.
OK
04:55
O K
Practice makes perfect :)
Z
04:55
Zack
Everyone else can make videos too
04:55
Deleted Account
Register trademarks, lawyer up
Z
04:56
Zack
In reply to this message
It is pretty obvious that they aren't a cryptocurrency, I think it isn't important if we share the name.
04:58
Deleted Account
Without trademark anybody salty may register "amoveo" as digital payment system and be "patent troll "
MF
04:58
Mr Flintstone
if amoveo can be stopped by patents it deserves to die
04:58
imo
04:58
maybe others feel differently
OK
04:59
O K
In reply to this message
While I agree with this sentiment literally, trademarks != patents
05:00
Deleted Account
It's not that it can be stopped but people may harrass zack with pointless lawsuits etc...
BDFL owning trademarks is very healthy thing for open source: ethereum Vitalik / python Guido
BDFL owning trademarks is very healthy thing for open source: ethereum Vitalik / python Guido
Z
05:06
Zack
Figuring out how to own a trademark sounds like something I would not enjoy doing
Kuan invited Kuan
05:14
Deleted Account
Dealing with legal issues isn't pleasant at all and it would be probably counterproductive for development
Z
K
05:15
Kuan
hi, where can i find current supply and max supply statistics for Amoveo?
Z
05:16
we don't know the max supply. for now it is growing by about 165 veo per day.
ŽM
05:16
Živojin Mirić
There are things that you just have to do no matter how you feel about it Zack
05:16
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
27.9 KB
K
05:17
Kuan
will inflation gradually decrease?
05:17
Deleted Account
No - it's even better: the holders are free to decide on inflation rate
MF
05:17
Mr Flintstone
if nothing changes, annual inflation rate = 1 / (age of amoveo in years)
05:17
Deleted Account
So they will decide on optimal thing - if you disagree you will be always able to fork and provide more hashpower to overcome the consensus
MF
05:17
Mr Flintstone
but like kacper said we can change the inflation rate
K
05:18
Kuan
thanks
05:19
Deleted Account
Z
05:22
Zack
If someone wants to sue us for the name Amoveo, I think I wouldn't even fight it. I would rename the github and telegram group and move on with development.
07:56
Deleted Account
The problem would arise if somebody would create amoveo fork with name amoveo
07:58
Deleted Account
it can be rebranding
07:58
neo was antshares
07:59
their rebranding helped them
Z
07:59
Zack
In reply to this message
haha. that would be funny.
I feel like if they are dedicated, we could use this to our advantage. it is a pretty wacky scenario, people would look into it.
I feel like if they are dedicated, we could use this to our advantage. it is a pretty wacky scenario, people would look into it.
08:00
Deleted Account
antshares shares=security
Z
08:01
Zack
so "security-shares" would be a good name?
08:01
safe-security-shares
08:01
We would get banned in Germany if we had initials "SS"
T
08:26
Tromp
Lol
08:42
Deleted Account
Are you german native speaker?
Z
08:46
Zack
who, me? I don't speak german.
09:05
Deleted Account
There will be Amoveo hackers group in 35c3? https://events.ccc.de/2018/07/19/einladung-zu-den-datenspuren-2018/
09:06
Because of consistent typo merkel -> merkle ;)
09:07
Many people were trying to pinpoint satoshi using his specific use of grammar and words
Z
09:12
Zack
No one told me about a amoveo hacker group in germany.
S
10:09
Sebsebzen
It’s easier to trademark the specific logo design and color scheme
Z
12:19
Zack
I started the process of closing 5 of the oracles.
Some of the oracles are already ready for betting, but they ask questions that we wont know the answer to until January.
Some of the oracles are already ready for betting, but they ask questions that we wont know the answer to until January.
Igor invited Igor
Deleted joined group by link from Group
25 August 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
01:29
Deleted Account
What happens if nobody tends to an oracle? Does it time out?
Z
01:41
Zack
if no one does anything, eventually it ends up in a state where we can immediately close it as a bad question.
Closing oracles is profitable, so it eventually happens.
Closing oracles is profitable, so it eventually happens.
01:41
Now that the block time is more consistently averaging at 10 minutes, it is easier for us to make oracles that close further in the future.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
05:15
Deleted Account
M
A
07:05
Aries
lol
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
15:25
Deleted Account
Thx
IP
16:41
I P
yep great!
16:41
but still too damn hard for the average joe i believe
B
16:57
Ben
Zack, perhaps create an Oracle that incentivizes someone to successfully complete and be awarded the amoveo trademarks, and require that the entity holding the trademark publicize a statement that the entity grants royalty free unlimited use to the amoveo network and nodes and cannot be modified or superceded by anyone other than those who can post a proof showing ownership of some very large amount of VEO?
16:58
And perhaps a few other ANDs such as price of VEO > $x,000, etc
17:02
The successful trademarking entity could publish it's receiving veo address in it's public statement. The Oracle could then be used to answer if the trademark was completed per the contracts requirements. Might be a better approach than spending time in lawyers offices yourself, and would probably be an interesting use case. I suspect others would fund this kind of contract as well, assuming you want trademarks.
IP
17:59
I P
btw do we have long/short markets for veo? (leveraged if possible)
Deleted invited Deleted Account
18:36
Deleted Account
@kitty123 on purpose i did not mention any opinions on whether the amoveo market is usable for the average joe. Right now there is still work to be done. We will get there eventually. I dont think Amoveo is quite ready for a giant inrush of new users right now.
18:37
@kitty123 i think zack mentioned that he was working on such a market. It seems to me that there is no technical difference between leverage trades, long, short or just a market following any currency pair or other stock, etc...
18:38
It just a matter of two users, collateral/margin and a rate to be followed by market forces, then enforced by an oracle
18:38
The rate could be anything
18:39
From an end user point of view of course there is a big difference, because most people might not realize that they are all the same
Z
EP
20:30
Evans Pan
Guys,don't worry too much about trademark, any new ones has to be put on a 6 month period for public examination.
20:31
any objection from any party will stop the registration.
20:32
and then there will be lengthy process for the register to go though and most of ppl will give up as it costs loads of money unless big companies.
20:35
same reason, for Zack to register amoveo, it's not easy as well.
N
20:39
NM$L
what price now
OK
20:39
O K
about 11 cents
20:40
Sergei invited Sergei
Z
23:41
Zack
To program faster, I find it is best to do things in this order:
1) data structures
2) tests
3) computations
It is better to do many small 1-2-3 cycles instead of one big one.
1) data structures
2) tests
3) computations
It is better to do many small 1-2-3 cycles instead of one big one.
26 August 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
01:19
Zack
I wrote some passing integration tests for the scalar markets.
Next we update the javascript to handle the new markets, and then we do final testing before it is ready to be live.
Next we update the javascript to handle the new markets, and then we do final testing before it is ready to be live.
01:19
CFD could be a dapp that gets popular, or at least brings attention.
Stable coins are a popular idea right now.
Stable coins are a popular idea right now.
02:11
Deleted Account
Being able to short / long altcoins on leverage would be very popular
04:30
Deleted Account
I posted this in discord, but perhaps not everyone is in there. My blog post about the coolest thing I’ve seen in a while For those that found my blog post about Amoveo markets hard to understand, I added a few extra graphics, Enjoy at: https://medium.com/@tallakt/making-sense-of-amoveo-prediction-markets-31a970aa175b
https://medium.com/@tallakt/amoveos-first-futarchy-market-233d01b9fe53
https://medium.com/@tallakt/amoveos-first-futarchy-market-233d01b9fe53
IP
05:07
I P
amoveo prediction markets are very cool. they do not allow for frontrunning and HFT
05:07
which kind of plagues all derivative markets hard
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
27 August 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
10:56
He has several thousand followers
10:56
Nice
Z
11:06
Zack
I found a flaw with the market contract. It is paying out the wrong amount.
The market node is profiting from the mistake.
The market node is profiting from the mistake.
11:07
bets are all matching at the limit price instead of the batch price.
11:12
Currently if you buy 4 shares at price of 0.5, this contract ends up with 4 veo locked in it. 2 on each side.
But if the batch price is 0.25, then that means you bought 4 shares for 0.5, and you get a 1 veo refund.
If you win the bet, then in total your side of the channel should have 5 veo in it, which isn't possible because there is only 4 in the channel in total.
To fix this, the market maker will need to lock a little extra veo in each bet. to account for the possibility that the batch price will be better than the limit price.
Once a share is matched, then we know exactly how much veo it needs. So we should simplify the contract and extract the excess veo to be used in other smart contracts in this channel.
But if the batch price is 0.25, then that means you bought 4 shares for 0.5, and you get a 1 veo refund.
If you win the bet, then in total your side of the channel should have 5 veo in it, which isn't possible because there is only 4 in the channel in total.
To fix this, the market maker will need to lock a little extra veo in each bet. to account for the possibility that the batch price will be better than the limit price.
Once a share is matched, then we know exactly how much veo it needs. So we should simplify the contract and extract the excess veo to be used in other smart contracts in this channel.
L
11:22
Larry
Oh. Are we allowed to post ref links in here? Anyone need a BitMEX account??
Z
11:23
Zack
Thanks for pointing out the spam Larry
kt008 | x*y=k invited kt008 | x*y=k
U
k
16:14
kt008 | x*y=k
😁
U
16:14
UnfamiliarTruth Bot
atleast you arent dead
16:14
thats good news
DY
16:29
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
@Jbreezy0 admin sir looks like we need some boob cleaning
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Darius invited Darius
S
D
18:36
Darius
wazup wazup
18:36
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
815.4 KB
S
18:36
Sebsebzen
Wazaaaaaaaap
D
18:36
Darius
I hope gifs are allowed here lol
S
18:36
Sebsebzen
You’ve joined the mighty VEO channel
18:37
I told you about it long time ago ha ha
D
18:37
Darius
bougth at 900, need to check whats happening haha
S
18:37
Sebsebzen
lol just think in mVEO now
18:38
Maybe it will feel better
M
S
20:18
Sy
damn someone actually bought at 900? wooha
F
20:53
Fića
In reply to this message
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
169.3 KB
20:53
Got some cheap mveo for you at 0,8$ :))
20:54
also does any of you know if exchanges will adopt the VEO > mVEO transition?
20:55
last time i check during the weekend amoveo.exechange was still trading in veo
S
20:55
I think he’s away for a few days
20:55
But he can answer
DY
L
S
20:56
Sebsebzen
Reeewwee
20:56
Welcome back
F
20:56
Fića
Would be great if exchanges adopted it. Exchanges are the key player for this transition...
DY
20:56
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Yep it still is, we had planed on doing mveo last week but things got in the way, cant promise when the migration will complete but its on its way.
F
20:57
Fića
Great to hear
20:57
Thanks for the info
ŽM
20:59
Živojin Mirić
hear hear!!
OK
Z
22:45
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/channel_smart_contracts.md
I wrote this document about how channel smart contracts work in Amoveo.
I wrote this document about how channel smart contracts work in Amoveo.
28 August 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
M⛏
Z
02:33
Zack
we could bet on whether they will do the update by a certain date
OK
02:34
O K
I'll bet false if both exchanges are included in the same conditional
F
02:43
Fića
maybe do a separate market for each exchange?
OK
Z
03:07
Zack
wouldn't you just bet at a different price if they are separate?
OK
03:11
O K
In my case, no, because I'm factoring in the inconvenience of participating in more than one market on the subject
03:12
If they are combined, would that add incentive for them to encourage each other to get it done as well? That sounds nice
F
03:14
Fića
ye but doest combining give more odds to against side of the bet due to unknown complexity of their relationship
Z
03:42
so the nash equilibrium might be for both to not do it, waiting to be second
OK
03:46
O K
Interesting point
OK
09:25
O K
Zack besides https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_http/src/ext_file_handler.erl adding a file here, what else might be needed to be changed for cowboy to serve a file
Z
09:27
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/tree/master/apps/amoveo_http/priv/external_web
put the file in this folder.
put the file in this folder.
OK
09:28
O K
I'll triple check, but we had placed the file in the same directory as the rest of the files referenced 🤔
09:28
Nothing else should be necessary?
09:29
Besides rebuilding, of course
Z
09:32
Zack
if you are running in test mode, then you don't even have to rebuild when modifying the files in this folder.
You do have to rebuild after editing any .erl file.
You do have to rebuild after editing any .erl file.
09:32
I think that is all you need to do.
JB
09:36
А
JB
09:37
J Bluebs
How is the project funded
OK
T
09:50
Topab
I have used it with no problems
JB
09:51
J Bluebs
Alright great
09:51
How does amoveo solve the oracle problem
OK
09:51
O K
Check out the whitepaper, it's very concise
JB
10:06
J Bluebs
Where can I read about how the team/funding
MF
JB
10:14
J Bluebs
So the Dev reward hasn’t been set?
10:15
Has it started collecting
OK
10:16
O K
Currently it's locked (can't be spent), can be changed by governance, and is just under 17% of each block
JB
11:39
J Bluebs
Awesome thank you
Minieep21 invited Deleted Account
|
14:22
|̲̅V̲̅I̲̅P̲̅|Paul
who mine amoveo on Hiveos , who can tech me ?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
14:52
Deleted Account
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😎, 20.8 KB
|
14:57
|̲̅V̲̅I̲̅P̲̅|Paul
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😢, 17.8 KB
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
29 August 2018
00:56
Deleted Account
@bulaaoea hiveos is a paid product with proper support. Please request Amoveo support through those channels
00:57
You can run an Amoveo miner using most Linux systems just by compiling and running VeoCL on github
00:58
If you need help with that, please get in touch. But it will be easier to get help eg. If you use Ubuntu...
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
Z
04:56
Zack
We can use the same markets to decide which science results are wrong, and to raise funds to do an experiment to prove it wrong.
05:00
We should make a list of science results with these properties:
1) possibly incorrect results
2) the experiment can be reproduced in less than 2 weeks
3) Someone is willing to bet a lot of money that new experiments will result in the same conclusions as the previous experiments.
1) possibly incorrect results
2) the experiment can be reproduced in less than 2 weeks
3) Someone is willing to bet a lot of money that new experiments will result in the same conclusions as the previous experiments.
T
09:48
Topab
Experiment data can be easilly manipulated, not sure if that would work
Deleted invited Deleted Account
13:23
Deleted Account
This is a cool idea. A recent study of climate deniers or something funded by the sugar industry sounds like a good candidate
13:35
A problem is that funding a rework of the study must be done by someone also participating in the market. The volume must be quite large and also the «offset» in price must be quite large for this to be profitable
13:36
If we assume a two week rework of a study costs $5000, the market volume must be 10x that at least?
T
13:49
Topab
Does not seem that there is skin on the game in the tezos governance, does not look like futarchy https://medium.com/tezos/towards-futarchy-in-tezos-54a7b8926967
T
18:19
Topab
Check out @BrianNosek’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/BrianNosek/status/1034093709971873794?s=09
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
19:42
Zack
In reply to this message
Some kinds of science can be much cheaper.
Surveying 100 people and doing some statistics on their responses.
Surveying 100 people and doing some statistics on their responses.
19:53
In reply to this message
Did you even read the article?
It is a proposal for adding futarchy to a project which currently lacks futarchy.
He got some details wrong, but overall it introduces the concept of futarchy well.
It is a proposal for adding futarchy to a project which currently lacks futarchy.
He got some details wrong, but overall it introduces the concept of futarchy well.
T
21:38
Topab
Read superficially. Tezos decides on changes in the protocol voting. Did not read the part they could also implement it
Z
23:45
Zack
We should make a chart of how long till AE will launch.
It has been 2 months away for the last 3 months. Every day they push the launch date back another day, so it is still 2 months away.
It has been 2 months away for the last 3 months. Every day they push the launch date back another day, so it is still 2 months away.
23:55
What if I use a Nintendo entertainment system emulator as a VM for smart contracts?
That would be a lot faster, right?
That would be a lot faster, right?
23:56
Then hubs could use the official NES hardware to process smart contracts in parallel.
30 August 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
M
Deleted invited Deleted Account
06:06
Deleted Account
Q: Æ mainnet launched before new year 2019? :-P
Z
06:07
Zack
I think it would be a bad idea to bet on it. A market like that would help their development.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
06:43
Deleted Account
anyone can help me get set up on veominer?
06:44
i have amd opencl and the windows binary downloaded
OK
06:51
O K
I can help you
06:52
What kind of cards?
06:52
Where are you stuck?
06:53
Try
veominer.exe Byourpublickey= b=192 n=19 df=1 sk=2 u=http://work.amoveopool.com:8880
06:54
From the directory where you unpacked veominer zip
06:54
In windows power shell for convenience
06:54
Deleted Account
thanks ill try that
06:54
👌
OK
06:55
O K
If onboard graphics screws with you add
p=1
06:55
for light wallet?
OK
06:56
Pick one you trust
07:02
OK
07:05
O K
One nvidia gpu, correct?
07:06
Deleted Account
ah i thought it was amd
OK
07:06
Deleted Account
🙈
07:07
i was breaking my head why he gets this missing device id error
07:07
it happens if the miner cant adress your gpu driver
OK
07:08
O K
:)
07:08
Deleted Account
gj
Z
07:08
Zack
I think it has been months since I last had a server crash
OK
Z
07:10
Zack
im not sure. I logged on, and the node is acting normal
OK
07:10
O K
Someone set up us the bomb?
Z
07:10
Zack
its been a while since I updated that node
07:11
oh, the node was not down.
the problem is that the URL was wrong.
the problem is that the URL was wrong.
07:11
it said
https instead of http
07:12
I guess hoid is the type of person to type out an entire URL instead of copy paste.
07:13
Deleted Account
nope, i just clicked a link.
OK
07:13
O K
Where was the link?
07:13
Deleted Account
from the github
OK
07:13
O K
There is an old github?
07:14
Deleted Account
just a saying
07:14
the curreny github
07:14
ah scratch that
07:14
i had https enforced
Z
07:14
Zack
which page on github? I did a search of the README, there is no broken link on that page
OK
Z
07:14
Zack
it is a browser configuration?
07:14
Deleted Account
ok here's the new error now that nvidia is downloaded
07:15
07:15
Deleted Account
I think http links will be banned soon anyways. At least in europe
OK
07:15
The extension
07:15
Deleted Account
yes
07:15
Deleted Account
its because of gdpr
OK
07:16
O K
In reply to this message
Are you in the correct directory? Are you using power shell? Use .\ at the beginning
07:17
if not, check your defender or other antivirus which is running
07:17
Deleted Account
it is still in there...
07:17
ok
07:17
Deleted Account
You have to add exception
OK
07:17
O K
Power shell will give a similar message but will inform you to put .\ at the beginning
07:17
That will force load
Z
07:17
Zack
Does https even add security?
07:17
Deleted Account
somehow yes
OK
07:17
Sending a letter instead of a post card, so to speak
07:18
Deleted Account
but also visitors can verify you are a registered business and that you own the domain
OK
07:19
O K
You don't have to be a registered business to get an SSL certificate
07:19
Deleted Account
If you store credit card informations or also personal data informations, you have to transmit all forms via https
07:19
you dont have
07:19
but as a business its more trustworthy
OK
07:20
O K
In reply to this message
Naturally, otherwise the information would be vulnerable at every hop
Z
07:20
Zack
encryption doesn't guarantee that you are talking to the person you think you are talking to.
You could have encrypted end-to-end with the wrong person.
You could have encrypted end-to-end with the wrong person.
07:20
Deleted Account
but nowadays its a duty to have ssl as a business
OK
07:20
Deleted Account
Of cause there are many different ways to bypass all of securitys
07:21
Thats another topic
07:21
Deleted Account
still not valid.
07:21
i never get that error
07:22
Deleted Account
you use windows?
OK
07:22
Deleted Account
i fucking hate windows. but im at work...
07:22
yeah .\
OK
07:22
O K
In powershell, and
ls shows the file eh?
07:23
Deleted Account
try to start as administrator
07:23
do you start the .bat ?
07:25
do you use 32 bit windows?
07:25
what kind of cpu do you have?
07:25
Deleted Account
64 bit
07:26
maybe the cuda install was wrong or something
OK
07:26
O K
The cuda install from pham's github works every time
07:26
I've done it about 15 times
07:26
You rebooted?
Z
07:26
Zack
We need a way to distribute the light node software more securely.
I wonder what is most secure?
downloading from github?
What if I use the developer private key to sign a zipped file containing the light node?
I guess an attacker could make a new version of the light node, and build a fake version of amoveo's history, and have a fake developer private key to sign their fake light node.
So maybe the user should select random headers, and use a hash function installed separately to verify that the difficulty is high enough.
I wonder what is most secure?
downloading from github?
What if I use the developer private key to sign a zipped file containing the light node?
I guess an attacker could make a new version of the light node, and build a fake version of amoveo's history, and have a fake developer private key to sign their fake light node.
So maybe the user should select random headers, and use a hash function installed separately to verify that the difficulty is high enough.
07:29
Deleted Account
Did you add exceptions in Windows Defender etc.?
07:32
OK
07:32
O K
In reply to this message
Not exactly what you're describing but adding DNS support for nodes would be helpful in many ways
Z
07:33
Zack
In reply to this message
even if you are connecting to the right person, they might be tricking you and sending a bad version of the light node software to steal your private key.
07:34
Deleted Account
People have to pay attention of the green status bar in the domain
OK
07:34
Maybe a tool verify.html on every node
07:35
Where you can put another node IP and it hashes the light node software and compares it with the versioning
07:35
Deleted Account
I would really start of DNS Support and SSL.
OK
Z
07:35
Zack
Distributing the light node software trustlessly is probably impossible.
But if each of us has a friend we trust, and the friend already has a synced node, then I think we can securely distribute the light node software.
But if each of us has a friend we trust, and the friend already has a synced node, then I think we can securely distribute the light node software.
07:35
Deleted Account
Thats the minimum you can do.
Z
07:36
Zack
an attacker could modify verify.html to show anything
OK
07:36
O K
In reply to this message
I agree, this helps harden the network, allows people in oppressed regions to connect more safely, and helps with MITM
07:36
In reply to this message
Of course, but it could be used hierarchically (edit: I regretted my word choice)
07:36
(In a sense)
07:37
People would use your verify.html most
07:37
And probably those of long time community people after
07:37
It would be distributed versioning verification
07:37
Deleted Account
when i see ip addresses i get always confused
07:38
use 2-fa via e-mail which is send with pgp encrpytion😅
OK
07:39
or any sensitive data that could be stolen from me at gunpoint
07:39
Deleted Account
was just a joke :) but yea
Z
07:39
Zack
Maybe I should launch some malicious nodes that temporarily steal VEO, to wake people up to the dangers.
07:40
Deleted Account
better not
Z
07:40
Zack
with cryptocurrency, you have to attack something to make it stronger
OK
07:40
O K
Fraud and theft is a little different in most people's eyes 😅
07:40
Deleted Account
zack wants always to wake up and slap people for their stupid behavior
OK
07:41
Deleted Account
but they wont get smarter of this, trust me
Z
07:41
Zack
if I do it, at least there will be refunds. if I do not, then someone else will do it without refunds.
07:41
Deleted Account
they can't figure out what you're trying to do with this
OK
07:41
O K
Did you get with your council about this?
Z
07:42
Zack
I have never once uploaded my private key into a wallet.html downloaded from a server I don't control.
07:42
Deleted Account
and then they lose trust
Z
07:42
Zack
you guys are my council.
OK
07:42
O K
Maybe we should open a market that it will happen and bet false and encourage the fraudster
07:42
Right Zack?
07:42
😂
07:42
IANAL
Z
07:42
Zack
so when they steal VEO, they get a double-reward?
07:43
I don't want to pay people to commit theft
OK
07:43
O K
They will steal it and return it, is the question then
Z
07:43
Zack
oh, I get it
A
07:55
AlexShelpin
So brilliant,definitely that should be done...but for crypto in general...not only for amoveo...it is like the whitehackercorps...self organized people that attacks wallets and refunds them in a short period of time...just great...great educational tool for safe adoption...in Spain they say “la letra con sangre entra”....🤦🏼♂️
Z
08:06
Zack
is eavesdropping even a security vulnerability for us?
It seems like https adds nothing.
It seems like https adds nothing.
08:09
In reply to this message
haha, I had not heard that saying.
Yes, it is somewhat similar to white hat hacking.
Yes, it is somewhat similar to white hat hacking.
A
08:19
AlexShelpin
Yep!Let’s get this shit started...you just nailed it with this phrase “with cryptocurrency, you have to attack something to make it stronger” and just do the unexpected...refunding people. The immense power of unexpected things.Amoveo can start and lead this movement to this self organised security corps,and with the best possible timing would be a blast in every media,that is worth a lot of VEO
Z
08:26
Zack
How about the full node uses it's pubkey in the url, and it signs the light node software it sends to you.
If the signature is invalid for the pubkey in the url, then you don't use it.
The hub doesn't know if you are syncing fresh, or if you already have a copy of the light node software.
The hub makes a fraud proof, so it will lose a ton of money to anyone who can show it signed a bad copy of the light node software.
Many people would be constantly testing hubs, because if the hub lies, they can take all the hub's money.
If the signature is invalid for the pubkey in the url, then you don't use it.
The hub doesn't know if you are syncing fresh, or if you already have a copy of the light node software.
The hub makes a fraud proof, so it will lose a ton of money to anyone who can show it signed a bad copy of the light node software.
Many people would be constantly testing hubs, because if the hub lies, they can take all the hub's money.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
08:52
Zack
I think I made a big mistake with the market.
I deleted the order book before everyone had canceled their channel contracts.
I deleted the order book before everyone had canceled their channel contracts.
08:58
I made a mistake.
If you had an unmatched bet in the futarchy market, then your channel is probably stuck in an uncloseable state.
If this is the case, send me your pubkey.
I will give you a tx to sign, then you need to give the signed tx back to me so I can publish it to close your channel.
I will give you information to read the tx so that you know it is being closed correctly.
More info on Amoveo here: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
If you had an unmatched bet in the futarchy market, then your channel is probably stuck in an uncloseable state.
If this is the case, send me your pubkey.
I will give you a tx to sign, then you need to give the signed tx back to me so I can publish it to close your channel.
I will give you information to read the tx so that you know it is being closed correctly.
More info on Amoveo here: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
Zack pinned this message
Z
09:00
Zack
I updated the docs so we can avoid this problem in the future.
Z
10:49
Zack
Maybe I should just close all these channels the slow on-chain way.
To save on the effort of sending messages back and forth.
To save on the effort of sending messages back and forth.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
13:59
Deleted Account
For distributing the walley i am of the opinion that one should never put a private key on a web page. EVEN if that page is on your local filesystem. I say this because yes, its might be safe (not considering plugins and issues with the browser) but its a terrible habit, and 95% of the users will not do it right and probably trust an anonymous node with their key. So we as a community should not use a web page for a wallet.
I believe a simple compromise is to wrap the current web page into an electron native application than would run on most platforms. Then either make precompiled binaries or tarballs for source and spread the checksum of these files in a secure manner
I believe a simple compromise is to wrap the current web page into an electron native application than would run on most platforms. Then either make precompiled binaries or tarballs for source and spread the checksum of these files in a secure manner
14:01
Long term I would hope a native wallet would appear. Ideally (for me) would be a system where I interacted with a web page, but every transaction had to be signed and posted to the network using a separate wallet application running natively on my computer
14:03
I could probably write that wallet in Elixir in a few hours as a console application with easisly readable/verifyable code as a starting point...
14:03
Or it could be done in C++
Alberto Costanzini invited Alberto Costanzini
Z
19:16
Zack
Easier to write something like that in elixir, since you would have access to erlang crypto libraries.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
AC
21:39
Alberto Costanzini
Veo price? We are stucked AT 300 $ like june or veo growth?
Mervyn 🔥 | Unagii.com invited Mervyn 🔥 | Unagii.com
IP
21:41
you could say it is a downward growth
OK
AC
21:59
Alberto Costanzini
90? From 300?
21:59
Rotfl wtf happened
[
22:02
[Riki]
it went up from initially 50 usd to 90 usd, almost 2x
22:02
OK
AC
22:26
Alberto Costanzini
Oh
22:26
So not going to 1000$? 🤣🤣🤣
OK
22:27
O K
How many buy orders did you want to place? I'm sure you can make it happen if you have enough btc
AC
22:34
Alberto Costanzini
Uhm 70 btc
22:34
Deleted Account
...
Deleted invited Deleted Account
M⛏
31 August 2018
MF
AK
00:10
A K
taking veo private, funding secured!
Z
ChiPeer invited ChiPeer
Deleted invited Deleted Account
01:34
Deleted Account
hi guys looking to buy big size
01:35
please pm me if anyone is interested
MF
01:45
Mr Flintstone
Only person I know of with inventory even close to that and willing to sell is jadefalke on discord
JB
01:51
J Bluebs
Can I have the discord link
MF
OK
Wow KeepLearning invited Wow KeepLearning
IP
02:35
I P
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
✅, 3.5 KB
02:36
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
🚀, 18.9 KB
Caliban invited Caliban
f
18:13
fusan
is amoveo ok? price huge down.
DY
18:15
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Development ok
Community ok
Tools ok
Price in correction $800 was too much so it normal
Community ok
Tools ok
Price in correction $800 was too much so it normal
[
18:27
[Riki]
ok
19:32
Deleted Account
Stupid question #1 - I have to run a node to provide market?
M
19:39
Deleted Account
0.32 ETH / VEO
IP
20:39
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😁, 29.9 KB
Z
21:08
Zack
In reply to this message
The market software I wrote depends on a full node.
Technically it is possible to run a market with only a light node, but the software isn't written yet.
Technically it is possible to run a market with only a light node, but the software isn't written yet.
DY
21:41
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
True, also there is extra mechanics
There are miners who just dump at whatever the price pushing the price down. There wasn’t an opportunity to do that before the exchanges.
Eventually it’ll balance out
There are miners who just dump at whatever the price pushing the price down. There wasn’t an opportunity to do that before the exchanges.
Eventually it’ll balance out
IP
DY
21:46
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Ahahah that is surely a possibility 😂😂
Thats why zacks been telling people not to invest what they cant afford to lose
Thats why zacks been telling people not to invest what they cant afford to lose
JB
1 September 2018
Z
01:25
Zack
I have an idea on how to make an Amoveo video.
1) gather reward money for the script author, and for the actor who reads the script.
2) lots of authors make potential scripts, lots of actors make video auditions. all is released open source.
3) we use some futarchy markets to decide which actor should read which speech to maximize the value of a VEO.
It is like American Idol, except with more gambling.
1) gather reward money for the script author, and for the actor who reads the script.
2) lots of authors make potential scripts, lots of actors make video auditions. all is released open source.
3) we use some futarchy markets to decide which actor should read which speech to maximize the value of a VEO.
It is like American Idol, except with more gambling.
01:28
what should we call it? "Crypto Idol", "so you think you can crypto?", "crypto royal"
DY
02:14
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
This is very inefficient. Just like using blockchain instead of postgresql if we want to use a database.
If the aim is to have fun with VEO, sure we can do it, but marketing VEO this way? Nope
If the aim is to have fun with VEO, sure we can do it, but marketing VEO this way? Nope
Z
02:15
Zack
How is it inefficient?
I am no good at hiring. I would probably choose the wrong script.
I am no good at hiring. I would probably choose the wrong script.
02:16
Using futarchy to do work for me seems like a way to save time
02:16
Plus we are trying to make it easier to use futarchy for these applications.
02:17
If using futarchy is "too inefficient" for us, then how are we supposed to convince anyone else to use it?
DY
02:19
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
The right guy taking care of everything is the best solution. He can just hire from fiverr to get everything done as he sees fit. But like you said that guy is important. (hiring is important)
Z
02:20
Zack
That guy can win the futarchy market and then use fiver to make the video, sure.
DY
02:20
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
This is a great point. Maybe futarchy is efficient in some places but not all. Maybe it is not too inefficient here but the way we are approaching is.
Z
02:20
Zack
I'm not hiring anyone. You can hire someone if you want.
DY
02:23
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Maybe we can change these to
1) gather reward money for the video producer
2) Producers convince community on how & why we should choose them.
3) We use some futarchy markets to decide who should create the video to maximize the value of VEO
1) gather reward money for the video producer
2) Producers convince community on how & why we should choose them.
3) We use some futarchy markets to decide who should create the video to maximize the value of VEO
Z
02:24
Zack
Sure we could buy it all once as a bundle
[
Z
[
05:20
it allows you to remain focused on the code.
Z
05:20
Zack
We have blockchains now.
Employee-employer relationships are a relic of history.
We have better ways of coordinating our efforts.
Employee-employer relationships are a relic of history.
We have better ways of coordinating our efforts.
05:26
Since I launched a blockchain, so many people keep telling me how to spend my own money.
05:27
The only reason I need for not spending my money on your pet projects is that I don't want to.
IP
JB
09:31
J Bluebs
So what’s going on with this project
09:31
Is it a working prediction market
Z
09:57
Zack
It is a turing complete platform for programming prediction markets
09:57
and related financial contracts
09:57
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
You can learn more here
You can learn more here
JB
10:07
J Bluebs
👌
10:10
I always thought that prediction markets were the perfect use case for crypto
10:10
But Augur isn’t being used, so maybe I was wrong
Z
10:26
Zack
There are lots of ways that prediction markets and related tools can be useful.
It is a protocol, it becomes more useful with the square of the number of participants.
It is a protocol, it becomes more useful with the square of the number of participants.
Darren Parker invited Darren Parker
2 September 2018
Z
00:41
Zack
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=312668.0
I think we can reuse some of Andrew Millar's analysis of feather forks to more precisely define the conditions under which Nakamoto consensus works as an oracle.
I think we can reuse some of Andrew Millar's analysis of feather forks to more precisely define the conditions under which Nakamoto consensus works as an oracle.
02:37
Deleted Account
A related mining attack: make a contract to pay the mining pools _unless_ they generate blocks. If you pay more than their mining rewards, rational miners will stop mining. The cost right now is $30.000 per day (?). But this cost is offset by the fact that up to $30.000 may be collected by mining the blocks in the meantime, plus the possibility of performing 51% attacks
02:38
This would probably not work too well in practise as miners would also factor in the possibility of losing money in a 51% attack. But if most miners dont care about Amoveo in itself, the attack is plausible
Z
03:50
Zack
Isn't that always more expensive and less effective than paying them to mine on a fork?
03:55
Deleted Account
The thing is the contract that makes the bribery trust-free
03:55
Assuming that pools dont change currency
03:56
The contract could pay for found blocks, that were not submitted
03:56
Also you dont need to actually get in touch with each miner
03:58
Say you pay a 10% extra per block. Then you could quite cheaply get 51% (eg $3000 a day)
03:59
$33000 in bribes, $30000 in mining profits, plus 51% advantage
06:19
Isn't any bet in amoveo also bet on amoveo price?
MF
07:27
Mr Flintstone
you can have a cfd that is not dependent on the price of veo within a margin
07:28
so for example we can have a cfd that gives you ethusd risk but it’s denominated in veo
07:29
as long as ethusd or veousd doesn’t move too much against the margins you won’t be exposed to veo price risk while you’re in the bet
07:30
but if you’re doing one of the binary options markets that we’ve used so far, you definitely have exposure to the price of veo
T
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
23:32
Mr Flintstone
people willing to sell mveo at 7 cents
23:32
is it actually profitable at that level relative to other coins ( for gpu)
23:33
maybe fpgas have been on veo for a while
[
23:35
[Riki]
Or simply people who dont pay for energy
MF
23:36
Mr Flintstone
yes, but there still could be more profitable coins to mine even if free electricity
23:36
maybe it is people panic selling but we’ve seen these crazy low market sells for a few weeks now
23:37
what’s also interesting is that there were bids on qtrade for literally 30% higher
Z
23:41
Zack
that is a big spread
23:42
In reply to this message
does it make sense to have "ethusd" contract on Amoveo?
I can imagine ethveo and usdveo.
I can imagine ethveo and usdveo.
MF
23:43
Mr Flintstone
people like to go long ethusd
23:44
Or short. or do you mean we just need ethveo and usdveo prices to give someone ethusd risk
Z
23:55
Zack
I think I understand.
First you cancel out the veo-usd risk so you are owning synthetic USD.
Then you can add on some eth-usd risk.
First you cancel out the veo-usd risk so you are owning synthetic USD.
Then you can add on some eth-usd risk.
3 September 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
AK
03:32
As the go to benchmark for gpus
03:33
0.3 veo/eth was profitable a month ago when I did the calc
03:33
For Nvidia
K
IP
04:10
Deleted Account
ETH has ASIC now. But still right now i think ETH has the edge over Veo on radeon
[
10:46
Deleted Account
Any invest advice now? Tezos?
10:47
I bought several veo already
MF
11:47
Mr Flintstone
not sure this is the right place for investment advice bo lol
A
14:43
AAA
Scalar markets are being developed
14:43
Right now we have only binary, kinda hard to do with them
MF
15:00
Mr Flintstone
maybe instead of explaining it every time we should have an amoveo cfd explainer in the docs lol
15:26
Deleted Account
And maybe the relationship between utility of the coin and marketcap value - obviously if $1000 worth of veo is locked in markets than minimal value of whole project needs to be higher
AK
19:45
Deleted Account
this is not the place to promote other projects.
ŽM
19:45
Živojin Mirić
lol
4 September 2018
MF
00:00
not sure we have a good one yet
00:01
if we don’t I’ll write one and have zack take a look to ensure truthfullness in amoveo context
Z
00:08
Zack
Cfd are old.
Can't we link to some existing description?
Can't we link to some existing description?
00:15
Financial derivatives have been studied and practiced longer than written history.
Surely someone wrote how cfds work.
Surely someone wrote how cfds work.
AK
MF
00:42
Mr Flintstone
yeah there is definitely material out there but linking it to amoveo may be more esoteric
Z
01:43
Zack
Sure, that makes sense. We can be more precise and use different vocabulary.
Z
08:34
Zack
In reply to this message
nice visualization of the relative size of derivatives vs everything else.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
09:08
Deleted Account
Hello guys where can I find an wallet?
09:10
Zack maybe you can help?
09:10
( sorry for fast approach )
09:13
ok i got it i think
09:18
is pubkey my address?
M
Gems invited Gems
Mys7ang joined group by link from Group
T
15:51
Topab
A betting protocol on Ethereum. Oracles are just votes (they said they will work on a trustless oracle later on) http://guesser.io/#/
V for Vendetta invited V for Vendetta
Deleted invited Deleted Account
5 September 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
06:03
Mr Flintstone
looks like all the buy orders above 0.01 have been taken out on qtrade
06:03
next order is 0.005
06:04
if someone takes that liquidity it would represent essentially a full round trip for the price of veo
I
06:53
Iridescence
wow
06:53
how far it has fallen
OK
Dmitri Larikov invited Dmitri Larikov
DL
06:59
Dmitri Larikov
👋👋👋
OK
TG
07:03
Toby Ganger
Yikes. Seems like there simply aren’t any buyers anymore.
MF
07:48
Mr Flintstone
lmao someone did it
07:48
50 dollar veo transaction on qtrade
07:48
wow
07:49
I wonder if they just have a bot hooked up to the api to sell above a certain price
TG
07:54
Toby Ganger
i think it's just miners dumping as soon as they get it...and there's zero demand right now so it only has one direction to go in
OK
07:55
O K
I've had a bid up for awhile
07:55
I'm not watching very closely but surprised it hasn't filled
MF
07:55
Mr Flintstone
why even mine this shit then
07:55
just mine something else
07:59
well there is demand
07:59
but it is in form of bids
07:59
rather than taking asks
P
08:11
Peter
Smart buyers would be wise not to hit the ask in this market. Simply wait for fills on the bid. Liquidity is needed
TG
08:18
Toby Ganger
yeah....should be interesting to see where and if we can find demand for VEO
08:22
Deleted Account
To make a project valuable in terms of price, you need to run it like a business. The tech is not the whole package when investors evaluate it as an investment
I
08:22
Iridescence
it is a buyer's market now, no reason for them to take asks
08:23
Deleted Account
You need to actively be lobbying organizations or entities to utilize the markets. Marketing is a big one, how is a non technical person supposed to be enticed to buy VEO when they need to sift through the Github docs
08:24
A website with clearly defined goals and features that can be absorbed in 10 seconds
08:25
Reaching out to larger exchanges and applying to them. Getting accepted by an exchange like Bittrex automatically brings awareness to the project
08:25
This project definitely meets their standards for a free listing
08:26
You need to make a large public presence if you want to see volume
08:26
Simply sitting in the corner will not bring buyers to fomo in
OK
08:29
O K
This is good input QB, thanks for taking the time
08:36
Deleted Account
You're welcome
Deleted invited Deleted Account
JB
Deleted joined group by link from Group
10:22
Deleted Account
Hi everyone
10:22
Great project
MF
10:22
Mr Flintstone
hello
Z
11:43
Zack
by default the full nodes are syncing by downloading 5 times in parallel.
On computers with fast connection, this works great. blocks appear faster than they can be verified.
I find on computers with slower connections, that it syncs more reliably if you tell it to only download with one thread at a time.
On computers with fast connection, this works great. blocks appear faster than they can be verified.
I find on computers with slower connections, that it syncs more reliably if you tell it to only download with one thread at a time.
11:43
the config/sys.config.tmpl file controls this. the download_blocks_many constant.
А
MF
23:47
Mr Flintstone
quite the block here
23:47
2hrs so far
23:47
23:48
what is /volumes
А
23:50
Андрюхин
nobody knows
IP
23:54
I P
about miners dumping... this could be predicted after fast diff switching was applied
23:54
miners dump price goes down miners leave, the rest get more coins, they dump coins, price down, miners leave and etc
23:55
vicious circle.... can only be defeated by having asics such as veo is a coin-leader for that asic category
23:55
like bitcoin is for sha256, miners have nowhere to go, if they dump the price down hard
6 September 2018
AK
00:25
A K
If there is no one to buy, coin is doomed regardless if asics
00:25
Bitcoin has demand
[
00:35
[Riki]
In reply to this message
This guy explained it. Github projects dont get price appreciation in 2018 anymore. Biz dev is required
MF
00:40
Mr Flintstone
you guys remember that the price went up in 2018 right?
00:40
this coin was launched in early March
Z
00:56
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/community_roadmap.md
updated community roadmap to address your concerns.
updated community roadmap to address your concerns.
01:06
This is just a roadmap for my personal strategy. I am supportive of others in the community who pursue different strategies
IP
01:17
I P
In reply to this message
veo also has demand, problem is bitcoin has loyal miners, they have nowhere to go and they are not dumb to dump at any price
01:17
with veo people can dump and move to eth
AK
01:21
A K
Loyal miners = holders = demand
KL
01:21
Karlis L
In reply to this message
so you are suggesting to "solve" the current Supply >> Demand situation by artificially making entry/exit barriers for suppliers? :)
IP
01:22
i don't see bitcoin and decred holders complaining
AK
IP
01:25
I P
they have choice to mine bitcoin or not mine at all. veo miners have choice to mine veo or 100500 other coins or not mine at all