Amoveo ♥🧿
6 September 2018
AK
01:25
A K
For bitcoin, daily inflation << trading
01:26
In reply to this message
Still they won't at USD loss, better buy outright
IP
01:27
I P
In reply to this message
oh they will believe me
01:27
it is not that easy to buy crypto
01:28
also if you already invested in equipment and don't have cash to buy but have cash for electricity...
01:29
In reply to this message
also your crypto buys are traceable through banks... when you mine crypto, well😃😃
AK
01:30
A K
If you have cash and mine at a loss, still better to buy outright, you get more coins
01:30
In reply to this message
That is so, some are ok to pay a premium
01:31
Not applicable to veo
IP
01:32
I P
In reply to this message
on p2p trading platform in russi crypto premium on price is 5-10%
01:32
btc was like 5900 but there was no way to buy it cheaper than 6500 or so (rubles equivalent) demand really was insane
AK
01:34
A K
Now there's a discount
Z
01:59
Zack
These 5 accounts have veo locked up in channels. We can work together to get your veo out immediately.
If you do not contact me soon, then I will start the process of getting the veo out slowly, which might take 3000 or so blocks.

BGOae6VjJOoz2XwcIDEVahnLmJOl8GnY3aGX9FaP0Er6F8oPxaMp+Nr//c/rj2ahM4R2vq6GnssorEIS5q9Le7c=\",
\"BKdkHXUeBIgzqyQ0morfNcw2AKIc/n1NAt0pK34ESnaC62mpSSMAqMsArWIqcyWWACdIL9r82UhnuUJIbueRH04=\",
\"BPWYmnUZFa6CluYpjPyQ2hhTjvGNJsjFC5I6NtpK1VduzF7Y3emboMQ89AoIyNDUZneVozQ8zE7SmBozlcqUrno=\",
\"BFvgK8kwC8yh+ljQV/Nvpx+95h2STjXKpkusykux5jjgTM83+4exLL3VMj8NRyQeZJduT59Xu65lcHnhahEMPcQ=\",
\"BJFwMtu8j5VfR6qwuXvZoLaiD+8U0jVvBsDb124RayO3FIrRp+SdwvIhL5+T1IPFaw5TLANGDwqj5whpZ4hWXUI=\
02:01
I have a feeling @potat_o is at least one of these accounts
IP
02:11
I P
In reply to this message
you would be surprised, but otc prices still not dropped much
Z
02:12
Zack
did the Cleveland Cavaliers win the Eastern conference finals?
MF
02:20
Mr Flintstone
yes
Z
02:26
Zack
ok, ill start closing that oracle
S
02:52
Sy
In reply to this message
are we reading the same channel? ^^
IP
02:52
I P
In reply to this message
Otc prices for btc and eth in russia
Z
02:54
Zack
does that mean that most miners are russian, and that all non-russians can make arbitrage profit by trading Amoveo?
S
02:55
Sy
no
02:56
02:56
didnt know that most of my miners are from Sweden tho lol
02:56
or at least hosting there
AK
02:56
A K
Why czech though
02:57
Sweden russia china have some cheap electricity
IP
02:59
I P
In reply to this message
Yep also cold winters for russia, with mining i save on heating costs much
03:00
Still hot in summers though.. cant mine sometimes at all
Z
03:02
Zack
In reply to this message
thanks for the data
03:25
Deleted Account
@kitty123 i think you reasoning about price is flawed. Heres why: miners mine when profitable. Any price pressure (selling mining rewards) will lead to inflation on the price. But at one point the inflation will match growth in Amoveo, or else it ends up zero value. The point is that price and mining activity are all controlled by feedback mechanisms. Miners will mine or leave depending on profitability. Bitcoin miners will also leave if the profit is too low.
IP
03:26
I P
In reply to this message
You would be shocked how hard gpu miners can dump coins
03:26
Deleted Account
The thing that actually determines the market cap of a coin is the users. In the early stages, people seeing the potential and hodling coins. Later stages, people using the system who need to own smaller amounts
IP
03:27
I P
Early days of bitcoin with 90% dumps are peanuts compared to 99% dumps nowadays
03:28
Deleted Account
The hodling guys are pretty easily moved by rumors and periods of bad moods. The userbase coming later care less about such things and more about the utility of the platform
03:29
I think putting mining into the equation for determining price og Amoveo is the wrong place to look. Miners will behave semi-rationally...
03:29
Why would you dump unless you were making money mining?
huglester invited huglester
03:31
Deleted Account
Now there are some other possible price threats. People dumping either because they are competitors, or because they want to start a chain reaction and then short coins. Or the opposite. But this imho is quite risky
IP
03:34
I P
In reply to this message
People margin shorted btc at 6-6.3k recently...
AK
03:34
A K
What is a dump?
03:35
Selling? Why not just call it as such )
03:35
Dump has some malicious connotations
IP
03:35
I P
In reply to this message
What is dump, baby dont hurt me, dont hurt me, no more
03:35
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😭, 19.6 KB
AK
03:36
A K
You can't short veo though
03:36
So if you want to sell you need to buy first
03:36
So as a competitor you can't influence price
IP
03:38
I P
In reply to this message
Mine and not put limit sell orders but market sell- this is dump
03:39
Miners are literally killing the cow which feeds them
AK
03:39
A K
I was replying to "ppl dumping because they are competitors"
03:40
In reply to this message
Miners are not obliged to use any type of order or hold. We should expect them to do what's rationally profitable
03:40
That's an ancap coin amirite )
03:40
So putting moral pressure on them not to "dump" is ...
03:40
We should focus on demand side
03:41
If we care about price
MF
03:44
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
soon you will be able to
AK
03:44
A K
I don't want ))
03:45
Was replying to competitors short selling
MF
03:45
Mr Flintstone
yeah, we cannot depend on participants of amoveo to do anything other than maximize self interest
03:45
fortunately the system is set up to benefit from this
03:49
any people knowledgeable about taxes here?
03:50
let’s say you have some veo that has gone up in price (will need to suspend disbelief here ) and want to sell some - is it a tax event if you use a CFD to become stable vs usd instead of selling outright on the market ?
03:50
maybe cfd has a competitive advantage in this way
AK
03:50
A K
Depends on the jurisdiction
MF
03:50
Mr Flintstone
yeah - anyone know if this is true anywhere?
03:51
I’m sure it’s not allowed in some places
AK
03:51
A K
The pnl from CFD will be taxable at the year end in some
03:51
Though if you use spread betting in UK it wont be..
MF
03:51
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
Good point
AK
03:51
A K
In reply to this message
Dunno I think perfectly legal
03:51
Not a lawyer ofc
03:52
You can hedge with futures and options
03:52
Not a big deal
03:53
The thing is, other side of the cfd would need to offset the risk
MF
03:54
Mr Flintstone
maybe they just want to go long?
03:54
like I am happy to go long for example
AK
03:55
A K
Might work
03:55
Single stock futures are not very wide spread
MF
03:56
Mr Flintstone
ppl use trs for single names typically
AK
03:56
A K
But ppl sell covered calls all the time, perfectly legal
MF
03:56
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
good point
AK
03:56
A K
Or buy puts
03:57
There is even tax loss harvesting in the us
03:58
With the only intent to minimize taxes
03:58
Also legal ( so far)
T
04:11
Topab
Could Amoveo futarchy be used in a different network? I am thinking it can be potentially a good tool in other blockchains. Zack, as I do, it's critical with the limitations blockchain has but I think futarchy could be useful in certain token networks
MF
04:19
Mr Flintstone
you mean like, use the futarchy on amoveo to aid in decision making of other blockchains ?
04:24
Deleted Account
I would like to pay to be able to short ERC20 shitcoins without unlimited downside risk
MF
04:26
Mr Flintstone
my understanding is that amoveo cfd will be programmed as a bounded cfd
04:27
also, note that blockchains cannot enforce unlimited downside risk
04:27
amoveo cfd will give you this kind of exposure, but the only way to short is if someone is on the other side going long
04:28
you can convince someone to go long by paying them to
04:28
Deleted Account
But what about prediction that 0x will be for example below 0.5$ EOY - for rational 0x holders it's free money - except for the case if they wan't amoveo exposure at all
04:28
We need more options payoff charts ;)
MF
04:30
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
not sure I understand what you’re asking
04:41
Deleted Account
If somebody is claiming that 0x price will go down and you are already holding 0x you can sell a little and vote against such bet (because if you believe that price will be $0.7 EOY)
04:43
Markets have multiple failure states - one failure state is no market
T
05:26
Topab
In reply to this message
Yes
MF
05:58
Mr Flintstone
maybe zack has a more nuanced take on it but I would think so
05:58
instead of asking about the amoveo diff adj mechanism, we could ask about the ethereum block reward for example
06:07
I don’t think there is anything wrong with doing out of band futarchy so to speak
06:07
like, we can use amoveo futarchy for business strategy external to amoveo so not sure why we couldn’t use it for other chains
06:08
Zack
Z
06:10
Zack
you can use amoveo to bet on anything that becomes common knowledge.
The price of eth is common knowledge, whether or not hard updates to ethereum happened are common knowledge.
T
06:36
Topab
In reply to this message
Yes, that is the idea.
06:37
In reply to this message
I see. It's a good way of seeing what's the scope of use for Amoveo
06:39
What I was wondering is if instead of veo another blockchain coin could be used to bet. Use Amoveo blockchain but instead of betting with veo betting with xyz coin. It's sounds like not to me, at least in a direct way
Z
06:41
Zack
amoveo light nodes are inexpensive.
So it would be easy to make running an amoveo light node be a requirement for running a full node of some other blockchain.
This would make amoveo a side-chain of that other blockchain.
You could write a contract on ethereum to do this.
06:43
around 11k worth of Amoveo are mined per day, but less than 2k were traded on the exchanges today.
Does that mean that 80% of miners do not sell on exchanges?
MF
07:03
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
how can you make it a requirement?
IP
07:06
I P
In reply to this message
i mine amoveo since gpu mining came available... i sold only 1 time otc a small amount when needed some extra money at that moment right away. There should be other miners like this. i've seen a lot of project i'm sure amoveo can become really great. yeah i lost a lot of money due to price dump, that is for sure=(
07:06
but i see clear progress here
07:07
i also see literal shitcoins crap erc20 worth hundreds of millions of dollars marketcap, shitcoin tron with 1.5bln marketcap and so on
Z
08:05
Zack
In reply to this message
Syncing a full node of new coin will involve reading data from an amoveo light node.
This is how side chains work.
T
11:58
Topab
In reply to this message
On a operational level, would that allow a DAO use their own blockchain to bet their token and use Amoveo oracle (with veo)?
MF
12:03
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
apparently I have much to learn about sidechains
13:38
guys we should replicate.
Z
20:08
Zack
In reply to this message
There is no blockchain that uses Amoveo as a sidechain currently.
If someone write an Amoveo light node as an Ethereum smart contract, then Amoveo would be a side chain of ethereum, and you could do betting on ethereum that is resolved by Amoveo's oracle.
20:12
In reply to this message
Amoveo isn't a side-chain project so far, and I doubt knowledge of side chains will ever be important for us.
But if you are still curious, I recommend reading what Paul Sztorc has written about them. He has done the most work for adding side chains to bitcoin. And I would also recommend looking at the tendermint project. They have done a lot of work in non-bitcoin sidechains.
20:13
In reply to this message
If we bet on something secret, how can we tell who won the bet?
20:15
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
I am building my dapp on Tendermint
DY
20:56
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Why tendermint?
21:51
Deleted Account
Because:

1. Fast BFT. It's easy to implement dPoS on top of it.

2. Creators of Tendermint are building the Cosmos project - interblockchain communication (transferring if tokens).

3. It's easy to implement a custom transaction logic for your dapp/blockchain by subscribing to Tendermint messages.

4. Over 50 projects are building on Tendermint. Some of them:

4.1. Hyperledger Burrow - PoS imlementation of Ethereum. Hyperledger Sawtooth uses Burrow to enable smart contracts.

4.2. Sentinel dVPN - decentealized VPN is built on Tendermint and you can download their app from Google Play and use.

4.3. Altcoin.io - DEX uses Tendermint as a sidechain paired with their Plasma smart contract on Ethereum
Tc
21:55
THE KING cavalc
Hi guys, what's the current Veo price? Still 190-200 $ ?
Z
21:57
Zack
What do you guys think of this idea: we keep decreasing the block reward until the price is above $0.20
21:58
The whole point of a variable block reward is so that we can adapt to the rate of adoption.
OK
22:01
O K
We could fix the problems that people often complain about instead
Z
22:01
Zack
The adapt-adopt-strategy
OK
22:01
O K
Exactly
Z
22:02
Zack
This doesn't prevent us from doing anything else.
It is a simple governance oracle.
OK
22:02
O K
What is preventing us from doing anything else?
Z
22:03
Zack
In reply to this message
You said "instead".
22:03
We can lower the block reward and do whatever else you want at the same time
OK
22:03
O K
Something apparently is preventing us from doing what people often complain about because the issues have been outstanding for months
Z
22:03
Zack
What are you talking about?
OK
22:05
O K
You're acting like tiny emissions is our problem when it's the demand side that is the problem, and the issues that scare people away have been discussed repeatedly
22:06
And ignored
Z
22:32
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/community_roadmap.md

The demand for new coins should stay low until we have a use case with users.
I talk about it in the community road map here.

I understand you have some pet project that is important to you, and you think it is the one thing holding us back from mooning.
(I think your pet project is the tx pool dropping txs occasionally?)

But my perspective is different. I have some other pet project that I think will let us moon. My pet project is having a real use case.
22:34
I'm not ignoring you, and my motivations are the same as yours.
[
22:37
[Riki]
your pet projects dont exclude each other so all fine. regarding adoption, https://twitter.com/ercwl/status/1036905782716104704
22:38
there is some website atlaspredict.com that also lets you bet. have not tried it. not sure what erik wall is using, is that augur'
Z
22:39
Zack
"will the coordinator be disabled"
He is using so much jargon in this bet, who knows what is means.
AK
22:39
A K
currently IOTA is centralized
22:39
but yes, it only makes sense for those following IOTA
22:39
and intended as such
[
22:40
[Riki]
iota defines the coordinator
Z
22:40
Zack
Does anyone have an opinion on lowering the block reward?
Should I just launch the oracle and see what happens?
AK
22:41
A K
we will loose hashpower
22:41
dunno if we should care
Z
22:41
Zack
hashpower isn't so important.
The purpose of mining is for distributing new tokens.
AK
22:41
A K
some current veo users - miners - will be unhappy
22:41
well, maybe they'r the only current users, actually ))
Z
22:42
Zack
Once we have a popular use case, then demand will increase, and we can increase the block reward a lot
22:42
for now demand is so low
22:42
because it is only speculative. there is no use case yet
22:43
Is anyone going to bet against me if I try to do this?
22:47
the number of miners will go down until the profitability of mining ends up the same.
22:48
It would be fun if this caused a fork of Amoveo.
I am fairly confident that a lower block reward version would have a higher veo price at this point in time.
AK
22:48
A K
yeah but why do we care
22:48
short term
Z
22:49
Zack
I don't know, why do you care?
so deep.
[
22:49
[Riki]
lower inflation
AK
22:50
A K
i dont' care short term
22:50
moon or bust 😅
[
22:50
[Riki]
inflation increases supply forever
MF
22:51
Mr Flintstone
looks like this might be the first really controversial governance oracle
[
22:51
[Riki]
so at a given market cap, higher supply means lower price per mveo
MF
22:51
Mr Flintstone
I’m in favor of seeing what happens. we can’t be scared of doing these things
Z
22:51
Zack
no one has stepped up to say they will bet against an update like this, so it doesn't seem controversial yet.
MF
22:52
Mr Flintstone
it is just my prediction
22:52
Deleted Account
so when the new users arrive in hordes the reward will be increased
P
22:52
Pan
In reply to this message
hashpower needs to be lower to consume less power, to generate less veo, to cost less money to buy inflated coins
Z
22:52
Zack
I think if demand increases quickly, we should increase the block reward yes. to make new veo for the new users.
P
22:53
Pan
It's bear market
OK
22:53
O K
Seems to me that the miners are and have been our only marketers
22:53
Maybe my perspective is wrong
AK
22:53
A K
seems so for sure, so far
[
22:53
[Riki]
In reply to this message
issue with this is that new miners get rewarded for being new via higher block reward. is it fair?
AK
22:54
A K
the only real value propostion has been "more $$$ than ETH mining"
MF
22:54
Mr Flintstone
I’m not sure we should be concerned about fairness
22:54
very subjective
ŽM
22:54
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
That is true and will stay that way until using veo for intended purposes is extremely intuitive and simple, miners and maybe speculative traders will be the only users
MF
22:55
Mr Flintstone
let’s see if amoveo starts being used when we have cfd. then, people marketing amoveo won’t just be miners and the occasional investor
[
22:55
[Riki]
we have actually already been concerned about "old miners" once. when changing the diff retargeting.
Z
22:56
Zack
hiring more miners does not sound like a viable marketing strategy to me.
22:56
mining only has 1 purpose we need to think about: creation of new tokens.
Everything else is a minor side effect we should ignore.
OK
22:56
O K
What do you propose Zack
22:56
As the gradual change
22:56
What is the first change you propose
22:57
And when to propose the second?
Z
22:57
Zack
Better to over-correct, and then correct backwards if it is a problem, right?
22:58
at most I think we can reduce the reward by 50% at a time. it would take like 1 week for the oracle to settle
P
22:58
Pan
In reply to this message
Agree, too many new coin is bad in bear market, no demand, only leads to large dump.
OK
22:58
O K
In reply to this message
I can think of many analogies where this doesn't hold true, I'm not sure it is clear thinking
MF
22:59
Mr Flintstone
50% would be way too much imo
OK
22:59
O K
In reply to this message
But how much are you actually proposing
Z
22:59
Zack
In golf you can only get a hole in one if you aim slightly past the hole
OK
22:59
O K
And besides, isnt the limit 33%?
Z
22:59
Zack
driving up to a cliff edge, you don't want to go too far.
MF
22:59
Mr Flintstone
I’m pretty sure it’s 50%
23:00
oh, it’s 50% up and 33% down I think
23:00
Maybe
Z
23:00
Zack
I think that Mr Flintstone is right
MF
23:00
Mr Flintstone
yeah. so two changes (first up then down, or down then up) at the max change amount results in the same value
Z
23:01
Zack
right
OK
23:01
O K
In reply to this message
?
MF
23:02
Mr Flintstone
what about 10% at first?
Z
23:02
Zack
I am still not sure if I should do this at all.
It isn't expensive, anyone can make oracles like this at any time.
OK
23:03
O K
You're asking if people will bet against you but you're not being very clear what you have in mind
23:03
Different amounts will result in different bets
Z
23:04
Zack
yes, good point.
I guess I would drop the reward by 33%, the limit.
MF
23:04
Mr Flintstone
I’d be really interested to see how betting unfolds in this. this affects everyone
23:05
I doubt there is consensus around 33%
23:05
who am I tho
OK
23:05
O K
In reply to this message
Psh
[
23:06
[Riki]
+1 for initiating such oracle if someone will taech me how to bet
MF
23:06
Mr Flintstone
when amoveo mining was much less profitable we retained 14 th/s
23:06
iirc
23:06
at least I think it was less profitable
AK
23:06
A K
they probably forgot ))
MF
23:06
Mr Flintstone
relative to other coins
AK
23:07
A K
the price was higher
MF
23:07
Mr Flintstone
yeah, so was eth
AK
23:07
A K
price vs eth also higher afair
MF
23:07
Mr Flintstone
idk - any miners want to chime in?
23:07
I’m sure ppl who were mining after China left are watching this chat rn
[
23:08
[Riki]
amoveo was brutally profitable in april and may
23:08
in june, still more profitable than eth
23:08
but slightly more. given ETH reputation vs veo, someone would have prefered to mine ETH eventually.
S
23:09
Sy
good thing i didnt sell in april / may 😂
[
23:09
[Riki]
now also more profitable than eth. but people stopped comparing profitability vs ETH. now you compare vs your electricity bill 😂
OK
23:09
O K
What is everyone's take on what caused the largest crash we have had so far
S
23:09
Sy
i think dropping the reward will change nothing, more miners will leave, diff will drop more to adjust earnings vs current price, same shit, different day
AK
23:09
A K
exchanges lol )
S
23:09
Sy
just let it be
AK
23:09
A K
transparent price discovery
OK
23:09
O K
Exchanges definitely happened after the $500 dump
Z
23:10
Zack
In reply to this message
would you bet on that?
[
23:10
[Riki]
In reply to this message
large crash, caused by our largest miners
23:10
that is the truth
MF
23:10
Mr Flintstone
qtrade went live at around 0.03 btc per veo
OK
23:10
O K
In reply to this message
Yes we lost a lot of hash, but not everyone at once
23:10
The others left because of slow blocks
S
23:10
Sy
china
diff stuck (for a month?)
dropped txs
still dropped txs
wallet
useability
[
23:10
[Riki]
yeah but price tanked mostly because oldest miners sold and left
OK
23:11
O K
In reply to this message
💯
[
23:11
[Riki]
even at these prices, old miners sell at profit
OK
23:11
O K
In reply to this message
This is absolutely my perspective
S
23:11
Sy
imho mostly china insta dumped and they had about 200 TH running, we were at 400 blocks per day
MF
23:11
Mr Flintstone
they probably mined a few thousand veo
S
23:12
Sy
i think useability and wallet are just a matter of time
dropped txs is important, ppl usually blame the pool or the exchange, nobody expects a coin to just loose txs
23:12
anyway, my vote is on keep improving the coin, fix bugs and just wait for price, demand and diff to find their equilibrium
[
23:13
[Riki]
all these remarks and points can be summarized by: amoveo needs a non-tech roadmap and non-tech person
S
23:13
Sy
trying to artificialy changing value reminds me of all those centralised banking systems we want to get rid off....
[
23:13
[Riki]
wp, www, exchanges, video how to use oracle, wallet UI
S
23:13
Sy
👍
Z
23:13
Zack
we put a governance mechanism into amoveo for a reason, didn't we?
S
23:14
Sy
true
23:14
i might just put 100 veo on bad question then
Z
23:14
Zack
it is not centrally controlled at all
23:14
100 veo huh. that is tempting.
S
23:14
Sy
haha
23:14
you cant outmatch me yet if it comes down to it
23:15
not without your dev reward
Z
23:15
Zack
I would have to break out the cold storage veo
S
23:15
Sy
so feel free to try it, i will thank you later
OK
23:15
O K
A network fork would be fun too :D
MF
23:15
Mr Flintstone
this is gonna get interesting lol
Z
23:15
Zack
Just because you have more veo doesn't necessarily mean that you will win the bet.
If I can get more miners on my fork, then my side would win.
DY
23:15
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Chinese miners tried to dump many times, dumping became easier when the exchanges went live. So exchanges do play a role. The buying pressure in exchanges was not high. We have a couple knowledgable people trying to buy more thus they are not increasing the price but buying slowly. We needed to have many people fomoing buying which would have increased the price. So lack of marketing plays a role.
Also AEterneties marketing brought in many people in May. People who research AE came here. But when their hype went down not a lot of new people discovered Amoveo.
The diff algo also plays a role.
MF
23:15
Mr Flintstone
what if Batman comes out of his slumber
S
23:16
Sy
In reply to this message
yes my king
OK
23:16
O K
In reply to this message
Keep dreaming
S
23:16
Sy
In reply to this message
i really like your argueing skills, we got governance variables, power to the people but if i dont like the outcome i will just fork 😂👍

enuff said, im out
23:17
the only thing you REALLY REALLY dont control is the miners
MF
23:17
Mr Flintstone
that’s how Nakamoto consensus works
S
23:17
Sy
no
23:17
its follow me or die
Z
23:17
Zack
forking is part of the governance mechanism.
S
23:17
Sy
no, its a manual failsave if something fucked up
23:17
otherwise it would actually be an automated part of the mechanism
Z
23:18
Zack
we should definitely automate more parts of it as time goes on
MF
23:19
Mr Flintstone
remember - zack’s dev reward is only valuable on the valuable chain. just like how miners can only mine the valuable chain
23:19
so don’t freak out if there are forks
[
23:20
[Riki]
Nice thing about veo community is that criticism is frequent
23:20
Its useful
M⛏
23:20
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
As long as it's actually constructive
Z
23:20
Zack
In reply to this message
yes, I like that about this community too
[
23:21
[Riki]
In reply to this message
I think it is. Chat is higher quality than many other telegram groups, really
DY
23:21
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Marketing Idea: Move the chat to bitcointalk for a month.

Here is how we did it in our game.
We moved our community from Reddit to Touch Arcade which is iOS gaming forum. https://www.reddit.com/r/DawnOfCrafting/comments/6q46tc/moving_to_touch_arcade/

We gave rewards in the game to whomever posted in our touch arcade topic.

Result: Our thread was constantly at the top. Whomever was lurking in the forum saw our game and we earned $10k+ worth of Downloads the first week.
After a month we saturated the channel so we moved back to reddit keeping the rewards for new lurkers.

Zack what do you think?
[
23:21
[Riki]
We dont have ico investors, maybe that is the reason
OK
23:22
O K
In reply to this message
Maybe it is worth a try
S
23:23
Sy
Might actually get some posts on my new account then xD
Z
23:23
Zack
In reply to this message
good strategy.

we have this roadmap: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/community_roadmap.mdI am going to focus on getting some use case for users, then once we have a use case I might shift focus to advertisement strategies.
AK
23:23
A K
We def need a better channel for knowledge building and sharing
23:23
If not just for marketing
OK
23:23
O K
It would be nice if we could get fundamentals to work
S
23:24
Sy
so back to topic, i dont care about mining reward going down, i have plenty of old veo - but im not sure how the new miners will feel about it because short term it will just give them less reward, price wont change, they will leave
AK
23:24
A K
Right now one has to read this chat 24/7 to understand anything
S
23:25
Sy
i mean thats what the diff is for, adjust the reward dynamicly vs mining power and indirectly vs price
low price -> less miner -> lower diff -> higher reward -> same $ at the end of the day
23:25
Deleted Account
What's the status with usage of amoveo right now
S
23:25
Sy
more or less very roughly over a longer period of time xD
[
23:26
[Riki]
Yea, rinse repeat
Z
23:26
Zack
144 new veo per day is a lot of sell pressure.
There just isn't enough demand for new veo right now to keep up.
S
23:26
Sy
Exactly, changing the block reward wont change anything else, it will just be a kick into one direction or the other and speed things up a bit, imho mostly down for now
23:26
then the price will go down even further so its less sell presure, isnt that how a market works?
Z
23:27
Zack
no, if you restrict supply, then the price goes up.
S
23:27
Sy
yeah that worked perfectly for the fucked up diff period...there is theory and then there is reality
ŽM
23:27
Živojin Mirić
Not if no one is buying
S
23:27
Sy
exactly
23:27
if you lower block reward you lower attractiveness
23:28
there are a bit more factors involved than just "restrict supply, price goes up"
MF
23:28
Mr Flintstone
people’s favorite cryptocurrency has decreasing block rewards
Z
23:28
Zack
mining isn't a use case.
Attracting more miners doesn't make amoveo more useful as a prediction market.
MF
23:28
Mr Flintstone
we definitely saw an increase in supply destroy the price of veo when we changed the diff adj algo
S
23:28
Sy
controlled, pre declared decreasing block reward
MF
23:28
Mr Flintstone
it’s Nakamoto consensus all the same imo
AK
23:29
A K
In reply to this message
Than miners will stop mining
Ramzi invited Ramzi
S
23:29
Sy
yes and no @Jbreezy0 its just the same, the price was going down anyway but with getting back to the real supply per day the process sped up
23:30
okay i rephrase, i think its a bit like the diff, if you decrease block reward it wont have the desired results short term (a few month probably) but might work out in the end...if you leave it like it is it will work out in the end aswell, might just take longer
OK
23:31
O K
In reply to this message
Why isnt there demand?
Z
23:31
Zack
If market conditions were static, then everything would reach some nice equilibrium eventually, it is true.

Market conditions are constantly changing.
The ideal mining reward is changing too.
23:31
In reply to this message
the prediction markets don't work well yet. too hard to use, and they break frequently.
AK
23:31
A K
In reply to this message
Dunno, consider btc
23:31
It's strength is it's rigid
Z
23:32
Zack
In reply to this message
we can do a hard update to turn off parts of the governance mechanism if that is true.
P
23:32
Pan
In reply to this message
+1
AK
23:32
A K
Well it worked for BTC, we don't have a counter example yet, I think
Z
23:32
Zack
maybe the ability to update the block reward using a governance mechanism is a design flaw.
23:33
I still think that the block reward should reflect the current demand for new veo.
AK
23:33
A K
I honestly can't decide for myself on this ))
23:34
But BTC being very rigid , even if suboptimal , worked for it
P
23:35
Pan
In reply to this message
+1, the true road to stable coin
AK
23:36
A K
Stable coin = no growth , why hodl
J
23:36
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
In reply to this message
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
89.7 KB
MF
23:36
Mr Flintstone
Veo should be stable once its market cap is large enough
23:36
or else it’s less suitable for use in financial contracts, and we have to hedge veo price risk until then
23:37
we’re definitely not even close to that yet lol
P
23:37
Pan
In reply to this message
for true usage.
stable coin is also better than falling coin
AK
23:38
A K
Well if we stabilise veo around current price 😂
MF
23:39
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
about a third of that lol
23:39
Deleted Account
we are now hodling veo bags, time to start building, marketing etc to pump our bags
OK
23:39
O K
In reply to this message
Build, market -- smart
23:41
Deleted Account
use amoveo super cool contracts to fund better amoveo
AK
23:42
Alex K
As Zac sad, we need some real popular use case, the rest is not that important in fact.
Z
23:48
Zack
@Simon3456 can you send me an encrypted message from one of your rich addresses? BCjdlkTKyFh7BBx4grLUGFJCedmzo4e0XT1KJtbSwq5vCJHrPltHATB+maZ+Pncjnfvt9CsCcI9Rn1vO+fPLIV4=
7 September 2018
I
00:08
Iridescence
why not just set block reward to 0, that way there will be no sell pressure from miners at all? 🤔 🤷‍♂(I'm joking, please don't do this)
AK
00:08
A K
we can also create buying pressure by going negative
I
00:10
Iridescence
In reply to this message
😂 burn VEO from existing holdings? I feel like that would create sell pressure instead
Z
00:12
Zack
In reply to this message
there are some interesting cryptocurrency designs with a POW tx type that creates tokens, and a negative block reward, for proof of burn consensus.
blocks happen faster when there are more txs.
AK
00:13
A K
creates for miner, burns socialized?
Z
00:15
Zack
with that design, mining is just for making new tokens.
You don't need to mine to create a new block, you just pay the cost of creating a new block.
00:17
The drawback to that design is that you can just pay money to rewrite history.
It takes a lot of confirmations to be sure that your payment is secure, and the confirmations come too slow if there isn't much traffic.
M
00:31
Mike
What if we decreased block reward 2% a week until the market strengthens? I don’t find the “selling” right now worrisome at all, just a handful of short term miners. Community is still one of the best in crypto.
Z
00:33
Zack
it might only make sense to have a low reward for the next month, we might have a good use case by then.

If we go too low, there is nothing stopping us from raising the reward again.
block time will stay near to 10 minute because of the new algorithm for retargeting.
AK
00:35
A K
Personally don't care about price for a month
00:35
I'd say why bother
M
00:36
Mike
In reply to this message
If we’re in a multi year bear market this change will need to be made sooner rather than later.
Z
00:38
Zack
In reply to this message
144*30*80 = over $300k
if you $300k is so little money that you wouldn't even bother, then you must be super rich.
AK
00:39
A K
Err I'm speaking for myself, yours truly
Z
00:39
Zack
If I happened to drop hundreds of thousands of dollars on the street, I would take the time to pick it up.
AK
00:39
A K
If the change would net me personally 300k, I'm in!
Z
00:42
Zack
If we even got $100k of new investment per month, I would consider that doing well at this stage of the project.
Trying to get $300k per month is just a little too optimistic.
M
00:43
Mike
Yeah, you’re right.
AK
00:44
A K
In reply to this message
wait where would it come from if we limit inflation?
00:45
you think inflation is stopping someone today from buying 100k worth of veo?
Z
00:50
Zack
I think I know why txs get dropped.
When you share txs with a peer, the peer creates a new thread to try and read those txs into the txpool one at a time.
The thread waits for the txpool to confirm that the tx was accepted before trying to feed another.

So if several peers all sent you txs at the same time, there could be 5 or 10 of these threads alive at once, each feeding txs to the txpool.

Now a block is found.
In the process of verifying the new block, the tx pool is emptied, and then we try to re-feed the old txs, and any txs from an orphaned block back into the txpool.
This is where is breaks. Those 5 or 10 anonymous threads are throwing random txs into the txpool, and sometimes they add in a high-nonced tx before the low-nonced tx gets read in.

So we have a couple potential strategies to fix this:
1) get rid of the anonymous threads. Just give all the tx to the mempool immediately, and return. the problem with this is that it would make testing more difficult.
If we send a bad tx to a peer, we want it to respond with a crash report, so we can tell which tx broke.
2) we could add a lock onto the txpool. So when we are processing a block, we ignore any txs from anonymous threads until we have finished processing the block.
00:53
the problem with locks is that they start making the code into pasta. Hard to read or reason about.
00:54
maybe we need a different api for sharing txs during production vs testing.
Z
01:25
Zack
I think I found a solution that doesn't require changing the api or locks.
I added a new command to the tx_pool_feeder to dump old txs, and add a bunch of new ones all at once.
This should prevent the race conditions.
MF
01:34
Mr Flintstone
🤞
01:35
would be a big win if we fixed this
Z
01:35
Zack
The tests all passed, so I pushed this upgrade to master branch.
I didn't have any test to show txs being dropped, so I am not certain this is a fix.
But this does fix at least one race condition that could cause txs to get dropped.
01:36
I doubt this fix has any impact on the price.
It is a minor usability enhancement.
Z
02:26
Zack
@potat_o @Simon3456 How long till we know if this fixed the tx dropping problem?
S
04:08
Sy
let me update my nodes...
04:09
done...
04:11
i lost 17 payments in the last 24h so after 24h tops
04:15
no drops in 12h are a pretty strong indicator tho
Z
04:21
Zack
great, thanks Sy.
05:59
Deleted Account
Hi. Wrt mining rewards and pressure on the coin, i fully agree with @potat_o - the problem is the demand side. Dont cannibalize Amoveo supporters with such nonsense. Much better to discuss the dev reward? What happens when everyone realizes that x veo was released overnight? I am seriosly considering selling all my veo before that event takes place. If you want to boost veo price, cut the dev reward. Or else just focus on how one might improve the situation without pissing people off. User experience is the main point, improvibg this is the way to get a larger crowd using Amoveo and coming back for more
06:00
So I rather suggest a bet: Q: one week before and one week after issuing the dev reward, veo price increases. Yes or no?
Z
06:01
Zack
So you would bet against this governance oracle?
06:02
Deleted Account
The mining one? I will consider the consequences of the market, and act according to my own best interests. This will probably not be placing bets, rather figuring out where to point my mining pool, and next how to sell my holding at the best price...
06:03
Similar to you reaction to cutting the dev reward I assume
06:06
You can start fiddling with mining rewards once a) amoveo is larger and more stable and b) once mining is profitable
06:06
Decreasing the reward by 50% will drive people away from Amoveo
06:07
And once you start changing it, it should be done in many smaller steps
MF
06:07
Mr Flintstone
this should not be spoken about like it’s zacks decision
06:07
because it isn’t
06:07
it is a proposal to the community to decide
06:07
Deleted Account
I have spoken my opinion on this
06:08
I believe many of the more active members of the community are involved in mining, so that should give this suggestion rather small odds of going through?
MF
06:09
Mr Flintstone
i don’t think a governance oracle for this is even live yet
06:09
Deleted Account
Or? Is there some way of saying that this will be positive for a miner?
MF
06:10
Mr Flintstone
well diff will go down right...
06:10
so you can think of it as a temporary loss
06:10
I’m not a miner though
06:11
if you look at it from a present value perspective, losses at the front of the timespan have little impact
06:11
Deleted Account
Depends. Many amoveo miners are not doing it just for quick $$. In that case there are probably some better options. A miner leaving Amoveo is probably also a holder.
MF
06:12
Mr Flintstone
it is not good to depend on people mining amoveo at a loss
06:12
it will never be a good idea
06:12
just mine something more profitable and buy veo
06:14
Deleted Account
Mining balances out, so lowering the emission rate will in teory mean increased veo price. So that that existing holders get richer than early holders. But even after balancing out, miners will receive less veo compared to the amount of veo being held
06:15
And add to that the psycology. A blockchain where all parameters vary wildly will scare off investors and probably sink the price more than the gain in the first place
ŽM
06:17
Živojin Mirić
if the market is in this mod in which it is or btc even breaks support no matter how much the reward of veo grows for the few remaining miners the price will just not grow
Z
06:17
Zack
keeping the price of Veo high is more important than how happy miners are.
Amoveo needs a bigger market cap if it is to support financial markets.
06:19
Deleted Account
Veo needs miners or else you will see a 51% attack in no time :)
Z
06:20
Zack
doubling the number of miners only makes it twice as expensive to 51% attack.
We wont be secure from this until we are much bigger.
06:20
increasing the mining reward doesn't really help.
MF
06:20
Mr Flintstone
veo could have 100x the hash rate and we would still be extremely small fish in a large gpu pond
ŽM
06:21
Živojin Mirić
you underestimate the importance of miners in the stage veo is currently
Z
06:21
Zack
so you think that paying $300k to miners per month is a good investment? How do the miners provide this much benefit?
ŽM
06:21
Živojin Mirić
until it grows much bigger and has some real users miners will be very closely connected to the price
Z
06:22
Zack
yes, hashpower follows the price. Miners mine more if they can get paid more.
06:27
Deleted Account
I would think if this as distribution not just an expense. The idea is that you start at 0 veo (or 100?) and then the market cap grows in sync with released coins. Halving release rate just means that future veo owners will be less wealthy than early owners. Right now we need to attract new users, so this is very backward
MF
06:27
Mr Flintstone
when someone makes an evaluation of investment, they do not give a single shit how rich the people before them got
06:28
wealth is wealth
06:30
Deleted Account
Not true @Jbreezy0. If you agree that we are transferring value from new users to existing users, it should be plain to see that it might not be worthwhile for new users to get involved in Amoveo
06:31
Less profit -> fewer new users
ŽM
06:31
Živojin Mirić
in my opinion you should do the things that you want to do as you described on github but also at the same time do the stuff that you probably despise - run this project a bit more like 90% other crypto projects are ran because you can't afford to lose speculative buyers interest/miners interest until you ramp up amoveo technically

you shouldn't wait for that "define the users and what it will be used for" and then invest in marketing, you could lose interest for this project and that is especially affected by global crypto market dynamic because veo is new, still small and speculative
IP
08:05
I P
99% of gpu miners are like cheap whores, they would switch to gain a penny on some coin, dump it and switch again. when all coins are dumped enough, all suck on eth
ŽM
08:06
Živojin Mirić
well it's about money.. I don't blame them
IP
08:08
I P
well you see it had to be 1 cpu 1 vote or smth with nakamoto consensus but it turned out to either having professional equipment asics to support the network at all times or a pool of cheap gpu whores to switch coins
08:09
and between the two i think first is better option
08:12
actually, talking about miners and other coins, there is that very very strange coin qtum, which is a frankenstein of bitcoin and eth with PoS consensus instead of nakamoto. like literally wtf how does this even work at all 🙈🙈 got dumped regardless of pos instead of mining
Z
08:40
Zack
Maybe smart contracts on amoveo should be called "smart protocols".
MF
09:03
Mr Flintstone
why do you think so?
Z
09:25
Zack
A contract is like a program written for a computer.
A protocol is some rules for pairs of people to interact.
Saprophyte Hurleur invited Saprophyte Hurleur
T
10:32
Topab
In reply to this message
+1, however, this is not one person decision, it is a community decission because you can bet on it
10:33
In reply to this message
Or even longer. I think there is people here willing to wait because there is potential in the project
M
12:39
Mike
In reply to this message
This is an important point.
12:40
This drastic adjustment conversation is nonsense. Why can’t we move gradually: 2% a week
13:28
Deleted Account
@pgonza no that is completely wrong. Futharchy is not a community vote, rather people betting on what they believe is more likely to happen.
13:31
Right now that is perhaps not true, because there are few players and people are not using the system to their own best interests. But it will be in the future
T
15:07
Topab
Agree
S
19:17
Sy
still no new dropped TXs, looking good so far
19:17
even tho the other pools probably havent updated yet so there might still some failed ones out there
AK
19:17
A K
moon time!
Z
20:43
Zack
In reply to this message
Great
8 September 2018
Z
02:48
Zack
I launched an oracle to find out if we should change the block reward.
MF
02:48
Mr Flintstone
oh man
02:48
what was the change %
Z
02:49
Zack
maxed out to 50.
So it can either raise by 50%, drop by 30%, or stay the same.
MF
02:49
Mr Flintstone
disgonbgud.jpg
Z
02:49
Zack
if you think it should remain unchanged, make sure to bet "bad_question".
If you think it should go down, bet "false".
Hopefully no one bets on "true", that will almost certainly not win.
MF
02:50
Mr Flintstone
did you place any bets?
Z
02:50
Zack
I forgot to store the ID of the oracle. so I am waiting for it to be included in a block so I can query it more easily.
02:51
bets are matched first come first serve.
02:51
so if you are going to bet, it is better to do it sooner than later.
02:52
and the size limits are lower if the market is empty.
02:54
Sy controls most of the mining, so by default he would win a fork.
If we update the version bit in our headers, then we can split off from the Sy fork entirely. And we will be 2 blockchains.
I wonder if any exchange could be ready for this with only a week to prepare.
I guess I could make a version of my escrow tool for this.
I would have to run both versions of amoveo on my server.
MF
02:55
Mr Flintstone
well, I wouldn’t say he controls it like that
02:55
he temporarily controls it
02:55
but he doesn’t control the hardware physically
OK
02:56
O K
Not sure why you assume only sy would favor that
Z
02:58
Zack
whichever mining pool is on the winning side will probably end up controlling majority hashpower afterwards.
03:02
FhbnDw8UWS0ZhtI4/c87YQmwdxXa71NUaadhP9Igzsw=
here is the oracle id.
03:04
Deleted Account
included in block 32270
Z
03:10
Zack
It is a good thing to have a contentious governance oracle. So we have historical evidence of how the oracle behaves.
MF
03:18
Mr Flintstone
remember this is what signed up for :)
Z
03:27
Zack
What should we call the forks?
MF
03:28
Mr Flintstone
are we sure there will be forks?
03:28
I’d be surprised tbh
03:28
current type: bad-question
Z
03:28
Zack
There probably wont be. but naming things is most people's favorite part.
MF
03:28
Mr Flintstone
lol
Z
03:29
Zack
my trade is sitting in the tx pool. it will switch to type false soon.
MF
03:29
Mr Flintstone
can we see any info about the order book on the light node?
Z
03:29
Zack
you can see some info, but not nearly enough.
MF
03:30
Mr Flintstone
how hard is it to change this?
Z
03:30
Zack
it doesn't say the volume of open orders
03:31
we just need to make some requests for the data for orders, then verify merkel proofs, then organize the data. It shouldn't be too hard.
03:33
now the type of the oracle is false.
MF
03:37
Mr Flintstone
how much did you bet ?
Z
03:38
Zack
1 veo.
03:39
and I paid the initial liquidity fee of like 0.4 veo.
03:41
https://veoscan.io/txs
You can see the txs
MF
03:52
Mr Flintstone
good point. thanks
IP
03:52
I P
In reply to this message
oh man, i'm a miner but voting for halving of block reward right now is a nobrainer
MF
03:52
Mr Flintstone
it would be about a 30% decrease
03:52
you also probably have a veo stack
03:52
already
IP
03:53
I P
In reply to this message
thanks Zack. But thing is many people won't vote because they don't know how to, it is not just 1 button click in nice ui. We need to educate them somehow
MF
03:54
Mr Flintstone
it would be nice if the light node had a betting interface
03:54
for the oracles
Z
03:54
Zack
You need to run a full node to make a bet. It is pretty complicated.

Maybe we should launch a market in the channels for derivatives bets.
03:55
A light node tool for betting in the Oracle is the ideal solution, but it will take more time.
CH
03:57
Chris Hortski
Imo as is it is now, the only people capable of betting are big bag holders, so we may not get an accurate result; we need it to be more user friendly to get more accuracy
MF
03:57
Mr Flintstone
if anyone wants to bet on this oracle, but feels like they do not have the technical expertise, I will sit with you step by step
03:58
whatever direction you are betting
OK
03:58
O K
In fact we could just paste the commands right here
MF
03:59
Mr Flintstone
yeah, good idea
03:59
like, exactly what the command would be for the different kinds of bets you can make
OK
04:03
O K
Amoveo is not a token
IP
04:09
I P
In reply to this message
yep just make instruction in pastebin or github document
and paste link here
Z
04:17
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/api/commands_oracle.md

Here are the docs for making bets in the Oracle.
04:27
In reply to this message
That was not my intention.
Do you want to be Zack bitcoin for a while? Just tell me what to tweet, and which tweets to delete.
04:29
In reply to this message
Yes. I can tell because the volume of trades is so much lower than daily tokens mined.
OK
04:32
O K
No, my liege
Z
04:33
Zack
I am serious.
I am pretty bad at making tweets, almost none of them get popular.
I am very open to suggestions.
OK
04:35
O K
It's been suggested several times that you could use a PR person to help you
04:35
It is good to outsource certain work
Z
04:40
Zack
It seems like you had some issue with a specific tweet, and I am doing by best to help resolve that issue for you.
Your advice is important to me OK. You have been here so long, and you have had many good ideas in the past.
M⛏
04:41
Moe ⛏
I know some social media managers, but do you guys think this project is ready for that? You can't really bring the "average Joe" in here and expect him to use that GitHub to make a bet. Never going to happen without better UI
04:42
It's not user friendly
Z
05:36
Zack
11 blocks in, the governance oracle still says we should lower the block reward.
IP
05:41
I P
In reply to this message
agree with it😃👍
MF
05:49
Mr Flintstone
not sure if sy is awake atm lol
06:25
Deleted Account
I have no vote in this not running my own server. But this is wrong. You are using govt variables to manipulate price while they should have been used for gradual adjustments to compensate for changing environment
06:26
You are taking veo from future users of amoveo. This would be fine _if_ the amoveo community was substantial, which it is not
06:27
Let the price do its thing and lets rather focus on building a community
06:28
Value of amoveo is so dependent on the number of users actually bothered to make bets...
06:28
Deleted Account
This is a scam
06:28
Tezos 2.03
Z
07:10
Zack
It is so amazing being a part of a community that makes decisions using futarchy.
The hierarchy is gone.
Someday, most of the GDP will be produced by futarchy communities. It is like we are living in the future.

When you live in the future, you often stumble upon important business opportunities. How can you profit from this new mode of organization?
Z
08:51
Zack
Enough with the gifs guys.
08:57
Deleted Account
I have the same feeling with tallak on reward change. Is this well discussed? Away from home few days, not sure what is going on.
09:00
it will take at least a week to settle. plenty of time to discuss.
09:01
there is only 1 veo at stake so far
09:03
Deleted Account
thanks, I thought it will close
within 11 blocks lol.
09:07
I think price dump will stop when people start actually using betting markets. Many early miners earned a lot of veo already so they will keep dumping even if reward will drop.
Z
09:17
Zack
I think that the number of veo we produce should reflect the current demand for new veo.
09:17
if a use case gets popular, we should make the mining reward bigger.
IP
10:02
I P
In reply to this message
yep
10:03
In reply to this message
are you retarded? oracle is live, you can vote. voting will decide the block reward.
DY
14:23
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Maybe you should create a video of this?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Ash invited Ash
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
17:30
S
👆that would be extremely helpful to a lot of people and help get a better representation of the community
S
17:46
S
Discovering it myself. Will try to document and share steps
Won't be pretty tho 🙈
18:21
Deleted Account
Guys, where can I get info on emissions, max supply, etc?
18:53
Deleted Account
Emission is about 144 veo per day or 144.000 Mveo
18:53
no max supply , caus eveo use futuarchy market
S
18:57
S
Anyone able to help in setting up a full node?
I get a "Node is not running!" Error when trying to attach
19:34
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Thanks!
19:36
In reply to this message
I don't understand the relationship between max supply and futarchy
AK
20:01
A K
futarchy can be used to set any max supply
20:13
In reply to this message
We can only set the block reward and block period.
AK
20:43
A K
yep, by proxy ofc, but effectively affecting max supply
Paddy The Priest joined group by link from Group
S
22:41
Scarrff
Well, Tadgh
Z
23:09
Zack
it has been 100 blocks, and the governance oracle still says that we should lower the block reward.
DY
23:20
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
The governance oracle can't be wrong, we should lower it 😄
Z
23:20
Zack
Still at least 900 blocks until the Oracle settles.
S
23:36
Sy
This oracle would be alot more usefull / User representing If the user could actually vote aka make it available in lightnode
23:36
Right now only a handfull can vote, mostly those who would benefit from this
Z
23:41
Zack
it isn't voting.
Markets are more accurate if more people can participate. We should do this update so that Amoveo's oracle will work even better.
S
23:42
S
I'm not technical by any stretch and feel that if someone wants to contribute to gov variables they should at least try to run a node.
Governance should require effort.
It's not AS difficult as it sounds but some more documentation would surely help.

Btw u guys've been great on discord 😁
MF
23:45
Mr Flintstone
for an individual user,if the marginal benefit from participating in governance doesn’t exceed the cost of setting up the node etc, i wouldn’t be too worried about that individual participating. unless the cost to run the node and bet was ridiculously high which it isn’t
23:45
cost can come in many forms
23:47
but agreed at some point it makes sense to be able to use light node to bet... but at the same time the light node you’re using should be from your full node or else you’re trusting the full node owner to not steal your keys etc
Z
23:47
Zack
you don't need to run the full node to be able to use the light node.
You can just open wallet.html in your browser, without even launching the full node.
MF
23:48
Mr Flintstone
what about in your phone?
23:49
I didn’t realize u could just run the light node without the full node running, that’s cool
Z
23:49
Zack
you can use a one-line python server to serve the wallet.html page to your phone.
There are probably ways to save an html file to a phone and view it later.
23:49
that is why the light node has a line to choose which full node to connect to when downloading headers
MF
23:50
Mr Flintstone
ahh, makes sense
9 September 2018
Z
00:00
Zack
Maybe we should keep updating the block reward to target a range of prices in USD, always adjusting the range upwards for say, 10% annual increase in value of a VEO.
So the initial range we target would be $100-200, and after about a year, the range would be $110-220.
If the price exceeds the target range, we increase the block reward, if it drops below target range, we decrease the block reward.

or instead of USD we could use some basket of goods, or basket of currencies or something.
00:05
Deleted Account
Is the oracle voting for govn variables a market, or are they programatically linked to the variable? In this case its more of a vote than a bet/market
Z
00:07
Zack
We could target between 36-72 chinese big macs.
00:09
In reply to this message
it is a market in that we put our money where our mouth is. If you are right you make profit. If you are wrong, then you lose your bet.
The purpose of this market is to measure the size of the disagreement in our community, and finance the creation of a fork, if the disagreement is big enough.
AK
00:11
A K
In reply to this message
block reward is not the magic price driver, cmon. if we set block reward=0 today, price won’t go to infinity.
00:11
(it will go to zero :)
00:11
same for changes like 33% or 50%
00:12
if the buyer is only willing to spend 50, it doesn’t matter if the new emission is zero
Z
00:12
Zack
yes, there is some lower limit of block reward where it doesn't ever make sense to go lower
00:13
Deleted Account
I wish someone would mak some statements to consider how much hashrate we should aim for to make Amoveo safe enough. This would be a crucial piece of information for a balanced vote
Z
00:14
Zack
if you wait more confirmations, eventually it is as secure as you need.
MF
00:19
Mr Flintstone
amoveo will not be safe from 51% attack until it is either the size of eth with gpu mining or has ASICs
00:19
gpu coins just are not safe
00:19
at any rate
00:20
00:20
this is looking better
00:29
Deleted Account
The thing is really how much does it cost to break Amoveo right now, and how fast can you get $ out into other currencies...
T
01:21
Topab
As a miner, I don't like the idea of reducing the reward because I enter into mining veo just when difficulty was sent to the moon by Chinese miners. I didn't move to other coin because I was thinking in long term. Now that I start mining some, this reduction will not be interesting. Plus the risk of a fork, which chain should I mine? Is there a better way to increase the price less risky, even if it takes a little longer? Improve the protocol at all levels and marketing does not sound like an option to many here?
01:24
Deleted Account
Amen
PT
01:40
Paddy The Priest
In reply to this message
Fancy meeting you here!
MF
04:22
Mr Flintstone
04:22
why is starts the same as done timer?
04:23
oh wow
04:23
nvm I am blind
04:23
lol
IP
05:05
I P
well it makes sence to lower block reward right now as clearly there is not much use for new coins entering market
CH
13:41
Chris Hortski
After doing some rough numbers, my rx580 x7 rig is producing 1300-1500 mveo per month. @ .10/kwh the electric cost is 95$/month. It will be tough to convince miners to continue if rewards are reduced substantially. I care about price too, but not in the short term. This seems like an artificial way to raise the price, one that may ultimately sacrifice our security.
IP
13:42
I P
In reply to this message
Rx580 are better at eth. 1080, 1080ti are good at veo
13:43
Use amd to mine eth and buy veo with eth, easy
CH
14:08
Chris Hortski
Who in their right mind would bet against the big bag holders on this oracle? They clearly think reducing supply is the answer. This is not much of an oracle.
14:10
Right, which will ultimately sacrifice security. U are ok with this because of the potential for more short term $?
IP
14:10
I P
In reply to this message
Right now reducing supply makes sence, no need to overinflate veo as usage in markets is still very low
14:10
In reply to this message
What security do you sacrifice by issue less veo per block?
CH
14:11
Chris Hortski
In reply to this message
It will be less profitable for miners (for sure to be taking a loss @-30%), so they will leave
IP
14:11
I P
Let them leave, does not matter
S
14:46
Sy
I am wondering why zack thinks i will fork off...
14:48
In reply to this message
I agree, price will go down even further plus less coins plus less miner
IP
14:54
I P
In reply to this message
price is a balance of supply and demand
14:55
demand for veo is here, but it is rather low hence price steadily declines. when you decrease blockreward it decreases selling pressure, price may go up. if so, miners will earn the same amoun in usd
MF
15:10
Mr Flintstone
diff also adjusts so profitability doesn’t change if block reward -30% and diff -30%
IP
15:11
I P
basically, the only people who lose when we decrease block reward are the ones who wanted to dump veo to 0 (and sold their veo stash) or the ones who want to buy at almost 0
T
18:11
Topab
In reply to this message
Right, why not just let it naturally go there without adjusting reward? I think decreasing reward and keeping it will changelittle in terms of price and hash power. I believe what we need to focus on is on building.
18:11
I am thinking investing some money to build some stuff with veo. I do not care about price right now. I believe in its long term value
AK
18:36
A K
+++
S
18:36
Sy
Exactly, price goes down, more get sold, its just the same
18:37
but more naturally, its really the story of mankind :D dont wait, push it
18:38
so we reduce block reward by 30%, what if price goes down by 30% aswell? or more? its an unneccesary change
S
18:59
S
In my opinion, by having many frequent core changes the community doesn't have time to adapt, which ends up hurting the project more than any individual issue.
Price and hash adapt with time, barring any terminal problem
19:03
Deleted Account
@Simon3456 Are you seriously considering forking off?
19:04
Saw you mention it earlier. Would create instability in the project
[
19:12
[Riki]
Amoveo cash (vch) ?
AK
19:13
A K
Sponsored by miners 😅
ŽM
19:14
Živojin Mirić
VeoCash is the real Veo!!
[
19:22
[Riki]
Yeah, Veo Core was always suspicious to me.
S
22:06
Sy
i never mentioned a fork anywhere, thats zacks text when things turn out the way he doesnt like em
22:06
i said i might move this to bad question since i think its a pointless change
22:08
it would make me richer tho...so its your loss 😂 and since zack seems to be willing to take his coins out of cold storage to overbet me, whatever...
22:08
its good for everyone who has coins right now
Z
22:43
Zack
If there is enough money at stake in the oracle market, it can trigger a fork. This is part of how the oracle functions.
10 September 2018
S
00:05
Sy
"it can trigger a fork"?
so it happens automaticly?
Z
00:18
Zack
Sort of.
It is a protocol, so nothing is really "automatic", we are all choosing to participate in various ways.
Once something is financially profitable to do, then someone tends to do that thing.
If enough money builds up in the oracle, then eventually it becomes profitable to keep a fork alive.
S
02:57
Sy
Amoveo Cash 😂
f
03:52
finex
0.05... and far away from a fair price if u calculate the dev in 😂😂😂😂😂
03:56
Maybe zack forks out when the price isn t compatible with his kind of "world view" 😂😂😂
04:58
Deleted Account
anyone know what the current market cap is?
04:58
and current block reward / projected block reward few years later?
f
05:14
finex
https://veoscan.io/
05:14
Marketcap 40521666 mVEO
2,319,206 USD
IP
05:32
I P
In reply to this message
Its not a core change, governance oracles are a part of the protocol from the start
Z
07:28
Zack
the oracle switched to type "bad question"
Z
08:42
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/api/commands_oracle.md
I added some documentation so that you can look up the bets in the oracle using a full node.
My goal is to make this information available in the light node soon.
08:42
right now there is 1 veo of open bets in the bad-question state of the oracle
S
08:45
S
In reply to this message
Apologies, i used the wrong word (core)
What I meant by it was changes that affect amoveo deeply and in different aspects
IP
08:46
I P
In reply to this message
well such changes were meant to happen because it is all in the protocol anyways
S
08:49
S
True. Will surely be interesting to see how this will play out, especially when more money will be at stake
Guio joined group by link from Group
S
17:36
Sy
i think Zack is right, with really high stakes like several 100 veo per outcome the coin will most likely fork, persue both outcomes and the miners will decide which they deem worthy
17:36
or we will have veo and veo cash, something like that
Deleted invited Deleted Account
IP
23:08
I P
In reply to this message
Without community and dev support miners mean nothing
Z
23:15
Zack
The amount of hash power is always proportional to the value of the block reward.
11 September 2018
sd
00:48
steel dan
@zack could you give a definition and example of outcomes for your scalar market? Is it dependent on an classic oracle or a new oracle type? Are you also preparing the combinatorial markets, these days ?
Z
01:05
Zack
We made combinatorial markets by moving the computation into the Oracle question.
The scalar markets are being developed in a different branch of amoveo.
We use 10 binary oracles to encode one scalar value.
sd
01:57
steel dan
So the oracle can now also contain a chalang script?
MF
03:40
Mr Flintstone
oracle contains an English script
03:40
English is turing complete
mariana soffer invited mariana soffer
EP
05:49
Evans Pan
I am very surprised to see Zack is concerning the price of veo so much.
05:52
Reducing supply is a right decision for short term but useless in the long term.
05:54
no demand, no marketing, price going down, no matter how do you change the supply.
S
05:55
S
Marketing's a stretch, we should start with a website, but i believe that's in the works
EP
05:57
Evans Pan
yes for veo, UI is the first step.
06:00
It's a shame there were lots of crypto non tech investors come across Amoveo but they can't even understand amoveo.
06:08
At the beginning, the mindset for amoveo community is amoveo is for people who can understand veo, we don't care average Joe. So the UI of Amoveo has not been improved ever since. If Zack you really care about the price of veo, or you started to worry about the price, or you finally realized veo can go down badly for whatever reasons, ( which is a good thing for veo), changing the UI is more important.
06:10
Without average Joe, the price will keep going down, 100%.
[
06:10
[Riki]
In reply to this message
+1
M⛏
06:15
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
Bump
06:16
In reply to this message
💯
06:17
Is there a way to write " there will be a user friendly UI made in x months." True or false. Without it being opinionated
EP
06:32
Evans Pan
yes there is. People talked about the idea a few month ago.
06:32
But it's meaningless.
M⛏
06:48
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
Why
EP
06:55
Evans Pan
because the number of ppl who can see, understand and bet on the Oracle is no more than 50 people I guess.
07:02
I dont know what is the chance for someone who is a good UI designer and understand veo and willing to be paid via Oracle in veo and he is not busy with other projects to get paid easily with USD or btc?
Z
07:02
Zack
Currently there are 11 veo of open bets in the oracle saying that we should not change the block reward
S
07:03
S
In reply to this message
Way too early to solve amoveo UX for normies
Z
07:04
Zack
catweed
If there is a fork, which side will veoscan follow?
S
07:04
S
In reply to this message
Any chance someone could take a look at the dependencies of a full node on github? Had an issue with them while setting up on linux
Z
07:05
Zack
I was thinking I would take a video of me doing a fresh install, and put it on youtube
07:05
if the dependencies need to be updated, then I will realize when the install isn't working.
07:05
I can livestream it
S
07:06
S
Cool! Would be interesting to see if this helps other people vote
EP
07:07
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
so all your logic is to set up an Oracle to let ppl vote, if the result is not as you wish, you fork it?
Z
07:07
Zack
forking is part of how the oracle works.
07:08
This design costs a lot less than any alternative I looked into. you can read about it in the docs.
S
07:08
S
Real question is which chain will have most hash, am i correct?
EP
07:08
Evans Pan
so why do you fucking put the Oracle on, just fork it or do it as you like.
Z
07:09
Zack
the oracle has 2 components:
1) the oracle market
2) nakamoto consensus, pow based forking

The oracle market allows bets to build up. this covers the cost of updating the software to keep both forks alive.
07:09
it covers the cost of all the users having to decide which fork to go with.
EP
07:10
Evans Pan
the bids on Oracle should have a significant amount of the total veo to make it a valid one.
Z
07:11
Zack
In reply to this message
very nearly correct, I think.
This stuff is very new, so it is hard to be certain.
My expectation is that having more hash in the short run doesn't necessarily win it.
Although in the long run, the winner always end up having more hash.
07:11
What is more important is the relative value of the tokens on each side.
EP
07:11
Evans Pan
100 veo on a bid can't make decision for 35000 veos.
Z
07:12
Zack
The oracle market is a way to swap your tokens on one side for tokens on the other side.
If you think that one side of the fork is better, then use the oracle to put your money on that side.
EP
07:14
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
Using the Oracle as governance is good, but we have to set up a % of total veo to make it valid.
IP
07:16
I P
In reply to this message
oracles don't work on % of total supply. they match bets
EP
07:17
Evans Pan
they can be used to bet sth, but not good to make it as governance.
Z
07:19
Zack
People used to think the governance mechanism was a great idea, but when we actually use it, it makes everyone unhappy.
IP
07:19
I P
governance oracles were a part of amoveo protocol from the start
07:19
In reply to this message
governance is not about making people happy
EP
07:20
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
yes,if everyone veo holder knows how to use and how bet, you are right.
Z
07:21
Zack
Even I am feeling pretty stressed out about this.
On the one hand, I feel responsible to voice my knowledge and guide us well, on the other hand, it is so hard to know what the community wants. What they want isn't always what is best for them.
IP
07:21
I P
well @Jbreezy0 said that he will help anyone ot bet, if you want to bet on this oracle ask him for help
07:21
In reply to this message
no need to stress about it
Z
07:21
Zack
If I lose all my veo now, I will have no voice in any other decisions going forward
EP
07:22
Evans Pan
but the reality is only very few veo holder can bet on a Oracle, the Oracle result doesn't represent the majority.
IP
07:22
I P
In reply to this message
any holder can bet on the oracle
Z
07:22
Zack
it isn't supposed to represent the majority. this is no democracy, it is futarchy.
IP
07:22
I P
you don't need any permissions to use veo to vote on oracle
Z
07:25
Zack
I think the responsible thing for me to do is to bet between 3-10% of my available veo on what I think is right, and also to make sure both versions of the software are available to download at the time of the fork.
That way, whatever the community decides, we will minimize any interruption to our services.
IP
07:26
I P
10% seems legit
EP
07:30
Evans Pan
if you already decided to make a fork, the vote doesn't mean anything now.
07:31
we use Oracle to predict the future, but the future already setup by Zack. no need to vote.
IP
07:32
I P
In reply to this message
Zack said that he is ready for both outcomes...
07:32
not that he decided future...
07:33
idk people just need to learn to read first
07:34
Deleted Account
how many aomveos released per block right now?
07:34
and has the block time changed (target time required to mine per block)
IP
07:36
I P
In reply to this message
10 min block, 1 veo per block+dev reward(locked)
07:36
Deleted Account
0.00023 eth is the rate per veo or mVeo?
07:37
miliVeo is mVeo?
S
07:37
S
1/1000 veo
07:37
Deleted Account
oh so price has fallen a lot
07:37
before was like $300 each right
IP
07:37
I P
yep
07:37
Deleted Account
when will the block reward be made smaller?
IP
07:38
I P
In reply to this message
well people can fork at any time as amoveo is permissionless protocol, would not make their fork valuable though
07:38
Deleted Account
when is zack plannign to make it smaller?
IP
07:38
I P
remeber bcash
07:38
Deleted Account
thats not how things actually work
EP
07:38
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
yes then the veo governance is no difference fro other coins.
S
07:38
S
In reply to this message
That's now how things actually work
07:39
In reply to this message
Except it's "funded" by the bet
07:39
The less popular, the higher the payout if you end up winning
07:40
Deleted Account
anyways does anyone have an estimate whent he block reward will be made smaller?
07:40
have not been following
07:40
is this expected to happen soon?
EP
07:41
Evans Pan
Which also means futarchy is just a dream in crypto.
IP
07:42
I P
In reply to this message
it is not expected, we bet in oracle
07:42
oracle may end up saying we don;t need to change block reward
S
07:42
S
Personally, I'm here to participate in experiments 😂
Z
07:50
Zack
I confirmed that the installation instructions do not work
S
07:50
S
Yay! Thought I'd gone nuts 🤦🏻‍♂️
Z
07:51
Zack
thank you for pointing this out. it is pretty bad this happens at the same time as the oracle. I will try to fix it right away.
S
07:51
S
No, thank you! :)
EP
07:52
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
and then we have a fork to change down the rewards, either way, the rewards going down.
07:52
the the fork by Zack
Z
07:54
Zack
{error_logger,{{2018,9,10},{23,52,7}},"Protocol: ~tp: the name amoveo_core_prod@install-demo seems to be in use by another Erlang node",["inet_tcp"]}
07:54
maybe cowboys format changed
S
07:58
S
In reply to this message
U got me thinking of what an ideal amoveo ecosystem could look like.
I believe that veo exchanges should exist to transact only in a couple of base currencies, but where hundreds of veo forks are listed.
Same could be implemented for mining and miners choosing their favorite chain
Z
07:58
Zack
if I build a local node it works correctly and is even running passing tests
S
07:58
S
In reply to this message
Same for me on mac
07:59
In reply to this message
The key is for users to have a choice in strengthening the version they think should be more valuable
07:59
Deleted Account
does anyone have an analysis on this oracle thing? can i understand the relationship between oracle and forking? so if oracle wins, does that actual lead to causual thing that increases chances of forking?
07:59
i mean increase chance of the block reward decrease
08:00
also what percent need to vote? if zack stakes his share in oracle, then you need to match it to prevent block reward decrease ? who is starting the oracle?
08:00
sorry I am noob to amoveo 🙂
Z
08:00
Zack
start by reading the docs about oracles
S
08:01
S
In reply to this message
This is V good as a starter
08:01
Deleted Account
ok and zack will you be contributing your amoveo to this block reward decrease oracle?
08:01
im not sure what the terminology is, but something like betting or staking of some sort
EP
08:03
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
I have to say you really overestimate the general knowledge and attitude of crypto investors.
08:04
Deleted Account
well i am really interested in the topic, i would just like to get an approximate undrestanding first
08:04
since it may take me some hours to really dig into this stuff
Z
08:05
Zack
I found a log file that makes it look like the node is starting normally.
I guess the problem is just with attaching to a running node.
08:05
Deleted Account
if things haven't changed much, from my understanding, if zack stakes his amoveo into the bet, then the game theory goes that there will be very high chance of block decrease
S
08:05
S
Mine didn't detect a running node
08:05
Deleted Account
why dont we move to proof of stake, even better
Deleted invited Deleted Account
EP
08:09
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
at least you are willing to spend the time to study it. if you only have 1 to 2 mins to read this, tell me now much you understand amoveo.
08:09
*how much
08:12
In reply to this message
100% we will have a block rewards down. Big boss already made his mind.
08:12
Deleted Account
i dont quite understand if i were to bet agaisnt an orcale
08:12
what my risk is
08:12
do i lose my stake, or does the price of my bet decrease?
EP
08:14
Evans Pan
you lost your veo
08:15
Deleted Account
oh wow
08:15
very interesting
08:15
so basically the blockchain has a very low false negative rate
08:16
very interesting, and when is this block decrease oracle going into effect? by what day does it say we will fork?
08:16
how much amoveo at stake right now?
EP
08:18
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
you are not supposed to ask these questions. As veo Oracle is for everyone to use, it's public and it's so friendly, you can easily check it by yourself.
Z
08:18
Zack
if the blockchain forks, and you make a bet in the oracle, then instead of having the same amount of veo on both side, you will have double veo for the side you bet for.
08:19
Deleted Account
and where is the link to the bets? i see the question was asked 3 days ago on reddit but nobody answered too
S
08:19
S
In reply to this message
Lol man, it's an early project
08:19
Deleted Account
also how is this different from augur or other oracle coins in practice?
EP
08:20
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
every thing is in github.
08:20
Deleted Account
this is exciting though, i can see oracle maybe become useful. if actors are honest. my feeling it should be, but maybe it can be attacked
08:21
why did zack tweet that gnosis is good but aeternity not
08:23
"Augur has collateral in the form of rep, a subcurrency. The amount of collateral is the market cap of rep. The volume of bets happening in all markets secured by the Augur oracle is limited by the market cap of the Augur oracle, including off-chain bets in the channels. Augur cannot escalate." I don't see how this is a problem initially, since nobodoy is going to risk more than $100 mill of money anyways
Z
08:23
Zack
maintaining the market cap at $100 million is so expensive. the interest rate of cryptocurrency is high.
08:25
maybe we need to update to a new copy of rebar3
08:25
Deleted Account
I also disagree with this statement "Some teams got a score of 0 for market because they are putting their markets on-chain. On-chain markets cannot scale with channels. "
08:26
I do not believe scalability is that important for the next few years
EP
08:26
Evans Pan
I sincerely have a suggestion for all amoveo holders. Let's follow Zack whatever he wants to do with Amoveo, so he can focus his time on his work, we won't have many funny veo forks. Veo community will be united and stronger in this way and the price will go up finally. This is the best way to help Amoveo in the long term.
08:26
Deleted Account
for example, ethereum is already very unscalable, and there are hundreds of other smart contract systems that are 100x more scalable than eth
08:26
but eth is still #1 smart contract system for now at least
08:27
for amoveo to definitely win I believe it must create a use case that nothing else has. although it may still be good even with just scalability increase
Z
08:27
Zack
no, updating rebar3 didn't fix it.
08:31
Deleted Account
I am glad I read about oracles though. It could be very big thing indeed.
Z
08:32
Zack
./_build/prod/rel/amoveo_core/bin/amoveo_core console
With this command it starts, but there is no way to detach and have it run in the background.
08:32
you could just use screen for that I guess
08:38
Deleted Account
and how many developers working on amoveo?
Z
08:43
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/getting-started/turn_it_on.md
I updated the documentation for the changes in how to turn it on.
08:43
Deleted Account
I think I may switch some of my other shitcoins for some amoveo hehe
S
08:44
S
In reply to this message
Great! Thanks! Ill try it out tomorrow morning 👍
08:44
In reply to this message
Good time to buy imo
08:46
Deleted Account
has the amoveo/ eth ratio dropped in past few weeks?
08:46
o rmonths
08:50
wow gnosis has dropped to 32 mill market cap, oracle coin not doing very well
09:58
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
You better ask exchanges also.
If there will be meaningful forking (like bch), I will support both chain.
I doubt this one is meaningful, it's distracting us.

We should focus on usability and mass adoption and basic core functions rather than messing about price thing.
Zack himself enumerated so much todos.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/todo.md

Current supply/demand scale is nothing if people start regularly using markets.
And even if we set block reward to 0, early-time whales will keep dumping if nobody uses amoveo like now.
Z
10:01
Zack
catweed
so you think the 4300 odd veo being distributed to miners is insignificant?
that is like 10% per month.

So if you wont support both chains, and you think it is distracting, then which side would you support?
IP
10:09
I P
catweed well i think early whales dumped already
10:09
Deleted Account
The current price fluctuation range is far larger than 10%, so it's sort of insignificant I think. And the inflation rate compared to total marketcap will decrease with time.
10:09
In reply to this message
Hmm I do not think so.
https://veoscan.io/holders
IP
10:09
I P
In reply to this message
makes sence to support the chain which follows oracle outcome...
10:10
if we don't support chains which follow oracle outcomes i mean this just goes to 0
10:51
Deleted Account
if any miner or anyone want to sell their veo at market rate, please message me
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
13:56
Sy
damn...18 new failed payouts
13:56
but it possible that amoveopool or xd didnt update...hopefully
14:03
Zack we need a method in api.erl to list all bets of an oracle so someone can display them on a webpage
Z
14:04
Zack
do the missed payouts only happen when they find blocks?
S
14:04
Sy
im not sure, let me check
14:04
yes
14:04
amoveopool paid that one
14:05
actually both, guess he didnt update yet
14:05
i submitted one on 32617 and the other one on 32696, +1 was found by amoveopool both times
14:06
i messaged him
14:06
about the fork, i dont think there will be a meaningfull one, i will support the oracle on this one, no point in experiments imho so whatever it decides, i will go with it
Z
14:06
Zack
How about one api command to give a list of order IDs, and a second command to look up an order by id.
Or should I combine them and just return a list of orders?
14:07
In reply to this message
that doesn't make any sense.
S
14:07
Sy
hmm i think the list of orders is meaningless since you have to query them one by one anyway so...better combine
14:07
sure it does, veo is weak as it is, really going for 2 chains right now might actually kill it so, no fork, the oracle decides, end of story
14:10
the command should return a list with the pubkey, amount, type if possible
14:10
if its cheap, make it public api, otherwise internal
14:10
Deleted Account
I would think a fork is only meaningful if you believe that a forked chain has value, in addition to the value of a won oracle. Right now I would think only the fork with Zacks support would have much value. I was not under the imoression that an oracle should automatically mean a fork also
Z
14:11
Zack
In reply to this message
Seems like you still don't know how the oracle works.
I guess it is good to have it run, so we can learn from experience.
S
14:11
Sy
I agree, i dont think the value in the oracle is significant enough to justify a fork anyway
14:11
i ran an oracle twice...the highest side changes a variable, end of story
14:12
you are overthinking it 😝
14:13
i am sure the rest of the chat understands my answer tho so, good enough for me
Z
14:13
Zack
I did design it. It is possible that it doesn't work how I expect it to.
But if it doesn't work how I expected, then it probably doesn't work at all.
If the oracle doesn't work, that would be a disaster for Amoveo.
S
14:16
Sy
we changed gov variables before, including the block reward - so im not sure what you are talking about
14:17
Deleted Account
What was the thinking the last time the block reward was changed? Just out of curiosity?
Z
14:18
Zack
in most cases, when we run a smart contract in a channel, we never have to go through the expensive process of computing the contract on-chain.
But it is important for security that we are able to do this expensive process if we need to.

Similarly, with the oracle, we almost never have to do the expensive process of forking.
But it is important for security that we are able to do this if we need to.
S
14:18
Sy
that was before i joined, i think it was 1.5 or something and they changed it because Kassel got like 90% of all blocks so he would get less of the total veo
Z
14:18
Zack
In reply to this message
we raised the block reward, and then almost immediately lowered it again.
S
14:19
Sy
thats why the block reward number is so odd, if you go up and down the same amount of % you dont end at the same number ^^
Z
14:20
Zack
in our case going up and down the same amount does end up at the same number.
Block reward is odd because of how we store the numbers in a custom exponential version of scientific notation.
S
14:20
Sy
Zack so you want to test the manual forking? thats a bit different story than "you dont know how oracles work" 😝 feel free to do so
14:20
Deleted Account
I dont know what the block reward is right now...
S
14:20
Sy
nobody really does except the node
14:20
and probably catweed because he keeps an additional txs table
14:21
the value isnt stored in the block, the node just credits it to the coinbase pubkey
14:21
so you'd have to check balance before and after
Z
14:21
Zack
The fork is part of the oracle.
S
14:22
Sy
the fork is part of your idea / design, it has to be done manually so for my understanding, its not "part" of the oracle
Z
14:22
Zack
the block reward is stored with all the other governance variables.
You can request merkel proofs of the current block reward.
14:23
In reply to this message
everything is done manually in a protocol. We are all choosing to participate in different ways.
14:23
Deleted Account
How would someone start a fork to win an oracle? Just run a single node until the oracle resolves? Or make a code change?
S
14:23
Sy
no, thats zack brain mode, for 99% of the 1020 telegram members its git clone, start, done
Z
14:23
Zack
When an aspect of the protocol becomes profitable to do, that is similar to it happening "automatically" in a traditional computer system.
S
14:24
Sy
if you dont do the changes, they wont happen
14:25
In reply to this message
if at all, the list of full nodes on veoscan got shorter over the past month
Z
14:26
Zack
In reply to this message
Miners censor any oracle-close tx that settles the oracle in the wrong state.
14:26
Deleted Account
I think what is recurring here is Zacks apparent belief that people will behave rationally in an economic market sense, while I believe that people behave socially in many respects. This is more true in the presence of hurdles. Even a small hurdle will cause most people from doing the rational thing. Eg find someone who is able to make Amoveo fork, and pay them to collect a reward
14:27
So a code change then...
Z
14:27
Zack
If we have a fork, and only 10% of miners are on the winning side, they will end up winning 100% of the block rewards on their fork.
Block time will revert to 10 minutes rather quickly with the new algorithm.
14:27
Deleted Account
Both sides of a fork are winners right? Or losers?
Z
14:28
Zack
it is possible that both sides would survive, but it is preferable if only one side does.
14:38
@Simon3456 should the new api return their merkel proofs as well? or just the values?
14:39
I guess I will just give you everything
14:40
This is what it looks like.
api:orders(OracleID).

You need to upgrade with rebar and git pull
S
14:40
Sy
In reply to this message
Exactly my thought...
14:41
In reply to this message
if no pool supports the fork unless there is alot of money involved no miner will change by itself
14:41
you wont believe how little technical knowledge there is in some of the "big" farms
Z
14:41
Zack
if no miners gets involved, the difficulty will keep getting lower
14:43
I updated the documentation for the new api command for looking up orders in the oracle.
S
14:55
Sy
i dont see the amount tho
14:55
14:56
is [2][2] the timestamp? because its flat 1000000000
on the other 2 orders
Z
15:13
Zack
one of the orders isn't really an order. it just happens to be the same number of bytes as an order.
15:15
I think it just has a pointer to the order which will get matched first, and a counter for the total number of orders.
15:15
kind of a mess. I guess this data should have been part of the oracle.
奇妙小點心 ニャーニャー invited 奇妙小點心 ニャーニャー
Z
15:18
Zack
an order has 3 parts. the pubkey of the person who made it. the amount that they are betting, and a pointer to the next open order in the order book.
15:18
In reply to this message
part [1] is the root hash of the order tree.
part [3] is the merkel proof of this order
part [2] is the order.
S
15:47
Sy
Still No amount tho
15:51
because [2][2] isnt the amount, you didnt bet 10 on false and i didnt bet 1 on bad question
Z
16:04
Zack
I thought they were both on bad question.
I bet 1 on false.
I helped someone bet 10 on bad question.
I assumed that you bet 2 on bad question.
S
16:04
Sy
ah so 3 bets is correct
16:04
and yes i did bet 2 but i cant see it in the api return
16:05
curl -d '["orders", "FhbnDw8UWS0ZhtI4/c87YQmwdxXa71NUaadhP9Igzsw="]' localhost:8081
Z
16:05
Zack
My bet disappeared, it was matched by part of your bet.
S
16:05
Sy
16:06
lol but it is still there so it must show
Z
16:06
Zack
The third one that looks weird is like meta data.
S
16:06
Sy
basicly we got 1 on true, 12 on bad question right now, your 1 on true cant just vanish, you have to track it somehow so ppl now how much is bet...so thats why my amount is 1
Z
16:07
Zack
I bet on false.
S
16:07
Sy
11 left on bad question....thats an odd way to work with it
16:07
cant you just list all bets made, not the processed orders?
Z
16:07
Zack
You can look it up from my account in the consensus state.
16:08
Open orders are stored with the Oracle. Matched orders are stored with each account.
16:11
I've been thinking the fork choice rule could be wrong.

Right now it maximizes for total hashes.
With a rule like that, our oracle will end up always choosing to increase the miner reward.
Instead we should weight the number of hashes by the inverse of the number of Veo in the block reward.
That way the fork choice rule prefers the blockchain with higher valued Veo.

Or some linear combination of the two formula.
16:13
It wouldn't change any history if the code had always been written this way. But it could be important for certain oracle resolution.
16:16
Maybe ((hashes) / (block reward))
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
19:07
Sy
how does one fork know anything about the other to begin with?
19:07
i mean isnt it a hard fork? you change something in the code to overwrite the oracle gov result, miner / pools choose which one they want to run
19:08
feel free to test this but imho this is pointless, you use the oracle to change something, user bet to voice what they want (and eventually loose all their money) and then you fork anway? where is the logic in that?
19:11
oh and i find it really odd that the oracle is "order matching" this way tilting the oracle becomes cheaper in changing direction

you bet 1 on false
i bet 2 on bad question
they match so its 1 on bad question left, meaning that with 1.1 you can tilt it to either true or false but in my logic it should be 2.1 to turn it over to true and 1.1 for false

with this method someone can bet 100 on true, someone else 101 on false and with a simple 2 you can switch it to bad question?
MF
19:47
Mr Flintstone
the point I think is that using Nakamoto consensus to tune these kinds of parameters is an expensive process by itself but the betting mechanism reduces cost or makes it profitable
S
19:48
Sy
nakamoto consens is just a fancy word for "whatever ppl want to mine" and again, you have to run a modified node for that plus its pretty much up to the pool, we have not a single solo miner right now
19:49
plus nakamoto consense would imply that one chain dies, doesnt it?
19:49
otherwise no consensus
MF
19:50
Mr Flintstone
it’s more of “whatever ppl need to mine”
S
19:51
Sy
a real consensus would be an automated forking, handled by the node and the miner set in their software which one they want to support, it goes on for x blocks and then switches to the winning one
19:51
need to mine is idealistic nonsense
19:52
basicly if we fork zack will fork off on github and we got 2 amoveo node versions
19:52
one with reduced block reward, one with unchanged
MF
19:52
Mr Flintstone
agreed that it makes sense to be able to program to follow a certain fork
19:52
but you can still get compensated for the cost of manual change
S
19:52
Sy
if no pool would care nothing would fork, they just run the original code, in this case zack would ofc switch his own pool, his chains diff would drop alot
19:52
but its uncertain if it will be worth anything if pools and exchanges dont switch
19:53
and ppl have no idea really what they are mining, chaos xD
MF
19:53
Mr Flintstone
the chain winning in the short term is not guaranteed to win
S
19:53
Sy
at some point they will either coexist or one will be abandoned (prefered imho)
19:53
there is no winning at all if you fork
19:54
the chains dont know anything about each other, its a matter of adaption
19:54
its nothing like a normal double blockfind mini fork, you basicly create another currency
19:54
which sould be avoided at all cost, especially for such trivial amounts and changes we have right now, zack can test it, sure - but there is no point in running 2 chains
19:55
and everyone on his pool will probably mine worthless veo without knowing
MF
19:55
Mr Flintstone
sounds to me like the cost of fork is high to you
19:55
which is fine
S
19:55
Sy
the cost for everyone is high
MF
19:55
Mr Flintstone
ok then it probably won’t happen
19:55
if there is a lot in the betting market it will
S
19:56
Sy
how good was bch for btc? but they had clear rules, different symbol etc
19:56
veo should never ever fork because of the betting market
19:56
the only reasons are a lying oracle which in theory shouldnt happen and a governance dispute
19:57
im pretty sure if we got like 30%+ veo in a governance oracle it will split off in both directions and create another currency
19:57
like ETH and ETC, BTC and BCH and probably some more
19:58
i would like zack to test this tho, make a fork and let each one follow one outcome just to see how he handles it codewise
19:58
but not switch his pool on the one the oracle didnt pick for example
20:00
i think trying to control the value by deflation doesnt work, we had 1/5 for at least a month duo to super bad diff and price went down aswell, i doubt this one will change anything, short term it will drop some more, long term it doesnt matter but since veo is one big experiment, go for it - i only bet 2 on bad question for a reason, its very easy to match
20:00
just let the oracle change the gov variable whatever way it goes and continue
20:01
you basicly take 33% revenue from all miners who are barely making money anyway since price doesnt care about diff or block reward short term, never has, never will
T
21:04
Topab
Totally agree
ŽM
21:04
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
no you don't!! until you don't vote on the oracle you agree nothing
T
21:05
Topab
Show me how to vote
ŽM
21:05
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
IP
21:05
I P
lets futarchy the hell out of veo lol
[
21:06
[Riki]
do u even futarchy, bro?
T
21:06
Topab
In reply to this message
What do I need to bet in order to not to fork?
[
21:06
[Riki]
knowledge and veo coins
21:06
see tallaks medium post about bets
21:07
it is linked here somewhere
T
21:07
Topab
Thanks
ŽM
21:09
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
clear example of a general cryptocurrency investor
21:09
he can't even spell futarchy
21:15
Deleted Account
does anyone know who runs amoveo.exchange? I submitted a withdrawal, and it has been 12 hours, and still no twork
21:16
Looks like I was scammed
AK
21:20
A K
sure you wasn’t he’ll figure out
21:21
Deleted Account
ok please do, I'm getting very nervous
AK
21:22
A K
In reply to this message
@demiculus
[
21:23
[Riki]
In reply to this message
dont worry, he is a good guy
21:30
Deleted Account
ok would like to warn everyone not to use amoveo.exchange until this gets resolved... i hope it does 😁
p
21:30
private_pr0perty
which profitability for 1 1080ti?
DY
21:38
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Np, we'll take a look. I'm currently afk but I told the others so they'll be looking in to your situation shortly.
Z
21:38
Zack
I noticed a potential problem with the Oracle.
It is possible for people to make oracle bets on only one side of the fork without the other.

This is a scenario I didn't research before implementation. The possibility adds some complexity.
It would be nice if we could find a way to prove the Oracle is still accurate, even if this happens.
21:40
I think block reward type oracles are not going to function correctly until we do the fork choice rule upgrade.

Instead of preferring the fork with the most hashes of work, we should accumulate (hashes / block_reward), and go with whichever fork maximizes this value.
21:46
Deleted Account
I think me and probably quite a few more would appreciate if you explained the connection between the oracle for govnt vars and forking, manual or coded... right now I am confused
Z
21:47
Zack
the outcome of the oracle is determined by nakamoto consensus.
We use a market mechanism so that the amount of money at stake can escalate to the point where it is affordable to use Nakamoto consensus.
TT invited TT
Z
21:56
Zack
Now I think we should accumulate (hashes)*(target block period)/(block reward)

That way you can not get extra consensus height from lowering the block period.
S
21:57
Sy
basicly what he is saying is, the outcome with the most money on it changes the governance variable and that is it
BUT
if ppl are pissed enough they might fork to their prefered outcome manually by changing the code and then the "nakamoto consensus" will decide which fork is more interesting for the users
21:58
i dont get why you weight a chain at all...they are 2 forks like veo and veo cash, you dont compare btc and btc cash which one has more weight, they both exist as long as there is demand
21:58
and there will never be any consensus on btc and bch, they dont just reconcile...
21:59
if one fork isnt mined and not traded you can keep running that node for yourself as long as you want, still no consensus and its probably worthless
21:59
you sound like forking is an internal mechanism like double finds which resolves itself after n blocks via weight but thats not the case, you have to change the code and run a modified node
Z
22:00
Zack
The fork weight rule determines which fork a node will follow if they are ignoring the controversy and just syncing normally.
S
22:00
Sy
so if you really fork the chain and let the nodes still sync with each other? ouch
22:00
not create a seperate currency....hmm
EP
22:01
Evans Pan
I almost believed veo is a strong project, but now I started to get the feeling veo might collapse or goes to 0 usd.
S
22:01
Sy
if you fork like that zack your fork that is not supported by miners and pools will always loose, in contrast to what you twittered
EP
22:02
Evans Pan
It's mad to fork such a small project and split the community and supporters.
Z
22:02
Zack
I agree the fork based oracle has some drawbacks.
But it is a lot more affordable than any other design.
S
22:03
Sy
it is interesting and like many things in veo, very idealistic
22:03
in an optimal world it would work, in the current scenario with 3 pools, it wont
22:03
not if you let all nodes sync with each other and let the normal forking rules handle which one wins
22:04
i thought you create a hard fork and both run independently of each other, like btc and bch
22:04
but what you describe is daily orphan business, the strongest one wins
Z
22:04
Zack
It's a soft fork.
So neutral un-updated nodes can end up on either side.
22:04
Depending on the fork choice rule
S
22:04
Sy
but how do you decide which way your node mines for?
Z
22:05
Zack
Each pool can only choose one side.
Miners choose which pool to join
S
22:07
Sy
the question was how, not who
22:07
i cant choose anything
22:07
there is no command to tell my node what blocks to build...
Z
22:07
Zack
You decide which fork to mine for when you decide which pool to join