Amoveo ♥🧿
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10 August 2018
B
13:39
Ben
btw. Zack you still run this as one man show, what about empowring the Community? A lot of coins start by delegate stuff in Discord and take it from there.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
RAstafAR invited RAstafAR
ŽM
J
Š
S
19:21
S S
where can i buy this
19:21
Coin
19:22
And whats the price
A
S
19:25
S S
Discord ?? Hmm so not an exchange thing yet . Thats good
19:25
What price did it start off at and when
A
S
19:26
S S
Im in india so how do i buy like a few btc wortg
19:27
I dont wanna get scammed
AK
19:27
19:27
both are present here
S
19:28
S S
Last question . How do we store it
A
S
19:28
S S
Nano s ??
A
S
19:29
S S
I hate software wallets
AK
19:30
A K
offline paper wallet is as safe as it gets now
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Johan invited Johan
[
Z
22:59
Zack
What do you need my permission for? If you want to take part in the community, then do it.
E
23:04
EdoFazlinovic via @gif
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
83.0 KB
23:18
Deleted Account
Agreed
OK
23:38
Deleted Account
Can we set up an official web first?
11 August 2018
Z
00:56
Zack
In reply to this message
Amoveo has no official anything. No company. No foundation. No ico. No office. No funding. No employees.
If you want to make another website about amoveo, then do it. I am sure the rest of the community will be supportive.
There are already more than a dozen Web pages about amoveo.
If you want to make another website about amoveo, then do it. I am sure the rest of the community will be supportive.
There are already more than a dozen Web pages about amoveo.
OK
00:57
O K
That's not really accurate
Z
00:57
Zack
Well, I am counting twitter feeds and the github page as Web pages
OK
00:58
O K
The funding/foundation thing is iffy too
00:58
But let's not conflate what people are asking for
00:58
I think what all of these community members want is something like this:
Z
OK
Z
01:00
Zack
Users want conflation?
Isn't that were you confuse 2 different things?
Isn't that were you confuse 2 different things?
OK
01:00
O K
In reply to this message
Here was the original description, which you turned into "do it" which, if you gave them administrator privileges I'm sure they would
01:02
In reply to this message
Lots of support for this, but what you're addressing isn't what was brought up
Z
01:02
Zack
You think we need more moderators on discord?
Spam hasn't been that bad.
Spam hasn't been that bad.
OK
01:02
O K
You might as well just ignore the suggestion, instead of pretending it was something else
01:02
I know sometimes you have problems with english, like I have problems with correlation
01:03
But the words say "empowering the community"
01:03
"delegating stuff on discord"
Z
01:03
Zack
Is this about making moderators on discord? Do you want to be a moderator OK?
OK
01:04
O K
I would be happy to be, I probably wouldn't do much of anything with it. Like you said, spam isn't that bad. But what it does is make people feel good about contributing
01:04
People like catweed, sy, flinstone, I mean pointless to list everyone there are dozens of "OG"s
Z
01:04
Zack
I could make a bunch of fake accounts, give them all moderator status, and use a different account each time. If that would help.
OK
01:05
O K
It just gives a sense of community, so we have greater retention and involvement
01:05
I think everyone is well aware by now that you're just not interested in this proposal
01:05
But beating around the bush isn't fooling anyone anymore
01:06
Your pay grade is too high honestly to be removing Free Sexy Time ads
01:06
That's a fact.
01:06
We pay you too much *to deal with that
01:07
In management when a high paid person is doing low pay stuff, money is being wasted
Z
01:07
Zack
If you delete them too fast, I wont have a chance to respond to the ad
OK
01:07
That was a good one
Z
01:07
Zack
I don't know how to add moderators on discord or telegram. looking into it now
01:08
does telegram have moderators?
OK
01:08
O K
I think they are called admins
01:09
And on discord, to clarify, not everyone in a 'special group' necessarily needs special priviliges
01:09
For instance, "github contributor" might be good for anyone who opens or participates in an issue
01:09
Or maybe some differentiation from someone who contributes actual code, I don't know
01:10
but the label encourages that participation
01:10
One "special privilege" that some communities add is as simple as a special private chat channel. It might be silly, but it makes people feel special
01:11
And if any of these "special label" people break the general rules and don't apologise (i'm talking about bigotry, spamming other coins, scamming, obvious things we have never permitted) then they can just be 'demoted', no harm done
01:12
In reply to this message
github involved (for engaging, reporting issues)
github contributor (for merged PRs)
github contributor (for merged PRs)
Z
01:13
Zack
oh, it isn't about making admins. This is like giving out merit badges to show how good of a boy scout you are. A sort of hazing ritual.
OK
01:13
O K
It's about all of the above
01:13
Except hazing, that's kind of weird and abusive
01:14
Didn't have fun in the scouts?
01:14
😬
Z
01:15
Zack
I wasn't in the scouts.
OK
01:15
O K
It also demonstrates to the world that it truly isn't a one man operation
01:15
and if anything ever happened to you we could maintain our community
01:16
Or if you ever lost your passwords we could let you back in without having to migrate everyone...
Z
01:16
Zack
OK is an admin for telegram now
OK
01:16
O K
holy moly
Z
01:17
Zack
CV doesn't matter. OK is running amoveopool.
OK
01:18
O K
I'm gonna go cash in for some chicken tendies
Z
01:18
Zack
Now Sy is an admin too
J
01:18
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
wow slow down
OK
01:19
O K
Sy, you want me to grab you some tendies
S
01:19
Sebsebzen
I for one welcome our new admin overlord
Z
01:19
Zack
and Mr Flintstone. that makes 4 of us.
01:21
I still don't know how to do mods on discord
OK
01:22
O K
I think if you do the drop down for Amoveo in the top left, then channel settings, then moderation
Z
01:24
Zack
I created an admin role. Now I want to assign people to have this role
OK
01:25
O K
Click on the person's handle
01:25
there is a (+) under notes, for add role
Z
01:25
Zack
I think I gave OK admin role
OK
01:26
O K
Can you do it to yourself
Z
01:26
Zack
oh yeah, you are displayed seperately now
OK
01:27
O K
01:27
I don't know if all kinds of roles are "separated" roles like the admin one
01:28
but when people click our names, they will see that extra "detail"
Z
01:28
Zack
Should I also give any different permissions? or are these roles just a label?
OK
01:28
O K
Just a label, so that people will know
Z
01:28
Zack
ok
OK
01:28
O K
Since people always ask, who is in charge of this, or that
Z
01:29
Zack
looks like your name is red now
OK
01:29
O K
I would prefer pink, but red is okay too
01:29
maybe the color will change again with amoveopool.com
MF
01:33
Mr Flintstone
that’s dicey
Z
01:33
Zack
I could make a pink-admin group, for any admins that prefer pink.
Š
OK
Z
MF
01:36
Mr Flintstone
@zack in theory, we should be able to use the broadcast feature in the light wallet for any tx type, right?
Z
01:39
Zack
In reply to this message
I have trouble remembering which accounts are associated to which website.
lets see:
Veopool.pw - Sy
amoveopool.com - OK, Mandel Hoff
amoveo.exchange - Shaun, Han
qtrade.io - Eric
veoscan.io - catweed
lets see:
Veopool.pw - Sy
amoveopool.com - OK, Mandel Hoff
amoveo.exchange - Shaun, Han
qtrade.io - Eric
veoscan.io - catweed
01:40
oh, and mveo.net - Jim Hsu
OK
01:41
O K
Probably better to leave mandel off the pool tag, he doesn't need to be bothered with pool related inquiries
MF
Z
S
01:43
S S
Where can i find a goos video explaining this as a project and as an investment
OK
S
01:43
S S
Yes i am greedy and care about the money alot
Z
01:44
Zack
Goose'e bites are terrible. not recommended to make this video.
OK
IP
01:44
I P
In reply to this message
damn i was talking about how making videos is important to grow community but i was also pointing out i don't know how to make them😂😂
Z
OK
01:45
O K
🦆
S
01:45
S S
Ive seen this
01:45
But this is the only one
IP
OK
Z
01:45
Zack
watch some videos of Paul Sztorc, it is basically the same thing
MF
S
01:46
S S
In reply to this message
Im just lucky to be in bitcoin since ages . I have zero computer knowledge
OK
ŽM
01:46
Živojin Mirić
I think that the community should focus on user experience for users of amoveo. People without technical knowledge should be able to use amoveo.
MF
01:47
currently biggest confidence destroyer is probably tx dropping
OK
01:47
O K
In reply to this message
Community is working on improved wallet UI as we speak, you're absolutely right
S
01:47
S S
And why is this worth 150 dollars
OK
MF
01:47
Mr Flintstone
150*35000
01:47
low supply coin
OK
S
01:48
S S
Only 35000
MF
01:48
Mr Flintstone
yeah
01:48
144 produced a day
OK
01:48
O K
Well, let's back up
01:48
It's worth 15 cents
01:48
Our new unit is mVeo
01:48
There are 144,000 produced per day
MF
01:48
Mr Flintstone
1 veo = 1000 mveo
OK
01:48
O K
and only 35,000,000 exist
01:48
(but yeah, shh)
S
01:48
S S
But more will ??
OK
01:49
O K
Emission is probably in the bottom 1% of cryptocurrencies
AK
01:50
A K
New admins, I always wanted to be friends with you, promise!
01:50
even before you were admins!
S
01:50
S S
And why is it better than btc
01:50
Keeping in mind btc will keep scalinng
AK
OK
MF
01:51
Mr Flintstone
I saw someone put it well on twitter. btc = censorship-resistant money. amoveo = censorship-resistant money and censorship-resistant risk
OK
S
01:52
S S
Theres mostly fud about lightning just like segwit has it
OK
01:52
In reply to this message
These are amoveo lightining channels, it's like bitcoin lightning network, but its own implementation
S
01:53
S S
Oh
OK
01:53
O K
That means once you open your channel with a market that you're interested in
S
01:53
S S
Are we up on any dex as yet
OK
01:53
O K
You can bet and cancel bets instantly
01:53
Dexs are typically for ERC20 tokens, this is a coin with its own blockchain
01:54
S
01:54
S S
Oh ok
OK
01:54
O K
There is OTC trading on the discord
S
01:54
S S
I will buy a few btc worth after reading up
Z
01:54
Zack
Amoveo has a Dex for trading financial derivatives.
It has a DEX for trading binary options in btc/eth.
It has a DEX for trading binary options in btc/eth.
S
01:54
S S
Na im in india will prolly get scammed
OK
01:54
O K
@Zack the lead dev has built a nice escrow tool
S
01:55
S S
And why will this catch on
01:55
I mean what are we hoping for
OK
01:56
O K
@Jbreezy0 does a good job selling this — what's the global market for financial derivatives?
S
01:56
S S
Lol
MF
01:56
Mr Flintstone
global market value of derivatives is around 5 trillion
Z
01:57
Zack
In reply to this message
Financial derivatives is the biggest part of the fiat cash market.
So financial derivatives will also end up being the biggest part of the cryptocurrency market.
Amoveo is the best blockchain for financial derivatives, so it has a good chance of becoming the most valuable blockchain.
So financial derivatives will also end up being the biggest part of the cryptocurrency market.
Amoveo is the best blockchain for financial derivatives, so it has a good chance of becoming the most valuable blockchain.
MF
01:57
Mr Flintstone
gross notional is in the hundreds of trillions I believe
OK
S
01:59
S S
And why do financial derivatives have to be on the blockchain or use one
MF
01:59
Mr Flintstone
why does money need to be on the blockchain?
01:59
same reason
S
02:00
S S
No one says money needs to . We are just betting on it
MF
02:00
Mr Flintstone
fair
02:00
but it’s the same reasoning from my perspective
S
02:00
S S
Not everything is gonna be blokchainised
02:01
But i get the idea
02:01
I would bet on it does too
MF
02:01
Mr Flintstone
if btc becomes globally accepted money, you would need to trust someone to get non-btc risk
02:02
Amoveo removes this need for trust
OK
02:02
O K
There are people who cannot buy things online because their country's laws leaves them unbanked, but can earn bitcoin online and spend it
02:02
There are also people who cannot invest in equities, gamble, etc
Z
02:02
Zack
In reply to this message
1) The vast majority of financial derivatives are illegal and inaccessible. Blockchains will allow these markets.
2) The financial elite have created laws to prevent the poor from using these financial tools. This is how they maintain control. Amoveo will give everyone access to these powerful tools.
3) The main cost of financial derivatives today is from coming from paying a central trusted party not to cheat. We can cut this cost by decentralizing.
4) The central trusted party usually does cheat by using front running. They do it in complicated ways to avoid breaking any laws. Often calling it "high-frequency trading". Amoveo can prevent this kind of loss.
2) The financial elite have created laws to prevent the poor from using these financial tools. This is how they maintain control. Amoveo will give everyone access to these powerful tools.
3) The main cost of financial derivatives today is from coming from paying a central trusted party not to cheat. We can cut this cost by decentralizing.
4) The central trusted party usually does cheat by using front running. They do it in complicated ways to avoid breaking any laws. Often calling it "high-frequency trading". Amoveo can prevent this kind of loss.
S
02:02
S S
Ooooohhhhhh
02:03
I see why
02:03
I like
02:03
Ok im gonna read into this
Z
02:03
Zack
great
S
02:04
S S
Is bitshares the same ??
02:04
Concept
02:05
Anyone
02:06
This is my last question
MF
02:06
Mr Flintstone
I don’t know much about bitshares
OK
02:07
O K
I thought bitshares was an exchange
02:07
I don't think they are very similar
02:07
Amoveo is unique
IP
02:08
Nothing like amoveo
MF
02:08
Mr Flintstone
oh, zack includes bitshares in the oracle progress report
02:09
but it doesn’t score very well
Z
02:11
Zack
bitshares is not similar at all.
Almost every aspect of these projects is different.
Amoveo uses a blockchain. Bitshares uses a insecure trusted political voting protocol.
Amoveo uses turing complete state channels for scalability. Bitshares has no scalability issues, because it isn't a blockchain.
Amoveo is built to enforce secure financial derivatives using a cryptoeconomically secure oracle.
Bitshares lets you gamble, and a trusted central party decides who wins.
Almost every aspect of these projects is different.
Amoveo uses a blockchain. Bitshares uses a insecure trusted political voting protocol.
Amoveo uses turing complete state channels for scalability. Bitshares has no scalability issues, because it isn't a blockchain.
Amoveo is built to enforce secure financial derivatives using a cryptoeconomically secure oracle.
Bitshares lets you gamble, and a trusted central party decides who wins.
S
02:19
S S
So its a better decentralised bitshares
02:19
Thts amazing
S
02:20
its down in text permissions
S
02:26
S S
Please give discord link
02:40
Deleted Account
can I be some sort of ambassador in Chinese community or something alike?
02:40
😂
Z
+
02:41
++
Question on Dominant Assurance Markets for crowdfunding stuff.
I get how the “False” side of the trade effectively creates a bounty that rewards those that successfully complete a project/task, but who is the natural buyer for the “True” side of the bet? There is no bounty or betting market if you can’t match both sides of the trade. Who should bet “True?”
I get how the “False” side of the trade effectively creates a bounty that rewards those that successfully complete a project/task, but who is the natural buyer for the “True” side of the bet? There is no bounty or betting market if you can’t match both sides of the trade. Who should bet “True?”
MF
+
02:44
++
In reply to this message
The natural buyer of True is the task doer, but that means the bounty would become a function of the wealth of the person seeking the bounty. This would exclude bounty seekers that have skills and capabilities but limited capital.
MF
02:44
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
sellers of true can set odds such that the buyer can afford it
Z
02:45
Zack
It is easy to raise money from friends and family if you have a guarantee that you can quickly multiply that money by 10x.
+
Z
02:46
Zack
Amoveo isn't perfect, but in many cases it is a better way of raising money for public goods than any other method.
+
02:46
++
In reply to this message
At high enough odds, capital intensity for the true side becomes negligible.
OK
02:51
can you make
amoveopool.com my first label :'D
Z
02:52
Zack
got it.
it was a click and drag interface
it was a click and drag interface
+
02:54
++
If Andy commits to doing a project, sets odds at 100:1. Bob sees and believes in the project and wants to contribute, he would stake also but it would have to be at a lower payoff, right?
So Bob might be able to stake at 100:2 or 50:1 (eg bet 1 and get 50 if true) but can’t stake at Andy’s 100:1, right?
So Bob might be able to stake at 100:2 or 50:1 (eg bet 1 and get 50 if true) but can’t stake at Andy’s 100:1, right?
Z
02:56
Zack
dominant assurance contracts are an area of research. There are lots of designs we are considering. There have been almost no experiments to find out which design is best.
02:57
http://bitcoinhivemind.com/papers/3_PM_Applications.pdf
Paul Sztorc writes about a promising design in this document.
Paul Sztorc writes about a promising design in this document.
02:57
Amoveo's markets are inside the lightning network, so we can't build it precisely the same way as Paul Sztorc writes about.
02:59
My plan for our first dominant assurance contract will work like this:
There are only 2 participants. the builder, and investors.
If the project is built, then the builder gets all the money from the investors.
If the project is not built, then the investors get all their money back, plus a little more money from the builder.
For every 1 VEO that the builder puts at stake, the investors can put up to 10 VEO at stake. All bets are at 1:10 odds.
There are only 2 participants. the builder, and investors.
If the project is built, then the builder gets all the money from the investors.
If the project is not built, then the investors get all their money back, plus a little more money from the builder.
For every 1 VEO that the builder puts at stake, the investors can put up to 10 VEO at stake. All bets are at 1:10 odds.
MF
03:02
Mr Flintstone
does the builder host the market in this model?
Z
03:02
Zack
yes.
MF
03:02
Mr Flintstone
and only builder can bet on true right
Z
03:03
Zack
right.
+
03:06
In reply to this message
A builder in Vietnam might be more capital constrained than a builder in US.
Z
+
03:07
++
In reply to this message
If your comment you wrote
“All bets are at 1:10 odds”
Don’t know why there would be one uniform price for any project and why the price setting would be set by you rather than market ?
“All bets are at 1:10 odds”
Don’t know why there would be one uniform price for any project and why the price setting would be set by you rather than market ?
Z
03:08
Zack
if the builder chooses a price that is too high, he wont get enough investment. If he chooses a price that is too low, then he wont have enough money on hand to pay enough people back with interest.
So the builder is contained by the market, and is incentivized to choose the market price.
He can choose 1:10, or 1:8, or 1:100.
But if he chooses the ratio that is the market price, then he will earn the most profit.
So the builder is contained by the market, and is incentivized to choose the market price.
He can choose 1:10, or 1:8, or 1:100.
But if he chooses the ratio that is the market price, then he will earn the most profit.
03:09
it is programmable. People can make smart contracts do anything they want.
1:10 is just an example
1:10 is just an example
+
03:18
++
In some ways, assurance market uses “moral hazard” from insurance markets as the motivator for beneficial outcomes.
Moral hazard is when the insured behaves in a way that increases chance of getting insurance payout once they are insured (eg purposely getting injured on job to collect workers comp).
While a problem in insurance market, it is an opportunity in assurance market. The builder purposely seeks to complete the project to collect the contingent payment.
Moral hazard is when the insured behaves in a way that increases chance of getting insurance payout once they are insured (eg purposely getting injured on job to collect workers comp).
While a problem in insurance market, it is an opportunity in assurance market. The builder purposely seeks to complete the project to collect the contingent payment.
Z
03:19
Zack
looking for patterns like that is a good way to gain understanding in game theory. Finding relationships between different but similar games.
[
03:24
[Riki]
How easy is it for a blockchain newcomer to setup a betting market on amoveo? On a (subjective) scale from 1 to 10, i would say 9. Not 10 because i assume he speaks english.
03:25
Can we not accumulate all this knowledge here and do a guide. Step by step. 10000 steps if needed.
MF
03:26
Mr Flintstone
here:
03:26
1. Sync node
[
03:26
That is already too much
MF
03:26
Mr Flintstone
2. Launch oracle by following these instructions https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/api/commands_oracle.md
[
03:27
[Riki]
I dont want to read anymore, 99% will fail at step 1)
03:27
Face it
Z
03:27
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/api/commands_market.md
This guide is pretty simple
This guide is pretty simple
03:27
only 1 step
MF
03:27
Mr Flintstone
OK
S
MF
03:29
Mr Flintstone
what if you just download the headers? can you retain functionality ?
[
03:29
[Riki]
A voting would be objective to give you OGs a hint about how unaccessible it is to do anything with amoveo for 99.999% of population on this earth. Start a poll here and you will see. Everything is subjectively easy while you know how to do it.
+
03:29
++
In reply to this message
If you allow others to bet true, you effectively replicate the economics of multi-round venture funding.
I could stake and profit share with a builder at 100:1 odds.
After getting some traction, could do a “round B” at 50:1. Odds went down but traction and capital and involvement by others all increase probability of success.
If not getting traction, but project is great idea, someone could stake builder (with profit share) for a “down round” at say 200:1 odds.
Starts to look like a way to multi-round venture funding but on the level of a task or project.
I could stake and profit share with a builder at 100:1 odds.
After getting some traction, could do a “round B” at 50:1. Odds went down but traction and capital and involvement by others all increase probability of success.
If not getting traction, but project is great idea, someone could stake builder (with profit share) for a “down round” at say 200:1 odds.
Starts to look like a way to multi-round venture funding but on the level of a task or project.
[
OK
03:29
O K
*Eventually* all the complications of running a node can be abstracted away
Z
[
03:29
[Riki]
Its like asking me to learn english, while i am illiterate.
03:30
We cannot even communicate, maybe with body language
OK
03:30
O K
A full node in the future can:
1) Have a GUI
2) Sync itself
3) Be easy to open a market
1) Have a GUI
2) Sync itself
3) Be easy to open a market
MF
03:30
this is much easier I think
03:30
and shouldn’t have any issues. we can compress the steps necessary for hosting a market
03:30
the thing is, you need deep understanding of channels and blockchains to do this profitably
03:31
if doesn’t matter if we can show someone how to launch a market if they just get slashed and have no idea what is going on
Z
03:31
Zack
In reply to this message
I think that the builder has an incentive to not let you do this. It would mean less money available to build the public good.
MF
03:31
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
that’s partially why there’s a lot of money to be made hosting these things
03:31
technical alpha
+
[
03:32
[Riki]
I will harass people in private chat, individually asking: "On a (subjective) scale from 1 to 10, how easy would it be for you to use any of amoveo's unique features". Will report results. It will not be a normal distribution, we can bet.
Š
Z
03:32
Zack
In reply to this message
hopefully we can automate all the optimal channel behaviors.
For example, a full node is programmed to automatically do a slash tx if your channel partner tries closing at the wrong state.
For example, a full node is programmed to automatically do a slash tx if your channel partner tries closing at the wrong state.
[
03:33
[Riki]
I brought 3 miners into mining amoveo. Miners, not newcomers. 2 had issues, 3rd managed to do this on his own after reading thru discord for half hour.
+
03:35
++
In reply to this message
On the flip, if builder already staked all they can, then why not have a “team” with the right incentives involved that will actually help the builder achieve goal by being additional builders on the project or beneficiaries with skin in the game so willing to pay other builders salary to help out. Basically it goes from 1 Builder to a team of Builders all working hard towards the same goal.
Like VC: get funds from folks willing to incur risk of loss for opportunity of gain and use the funds to pay salaries to those that prefer certainty of near term payments.
Like VC: get funds from folks willing to incur risk of loss for opportunity of gain and use the funds to pay salaries to those that prefer certainty of near term payments.
MF
[
03:35
[Riki]
Nothing is intuitive, even if it is "easy". So "easy" is a very bold statement. Now imagine some guy who has no clue about blockchain. He would say good night, amoveo.
03:36
Deleted Account
@ok better to volunteer than complaining about the one man show...
OK
03:36
O K
Hmm?
[
03:36
[Riki]
I am not ranting, i am the 99% percent ;)
OK
03:37
O K
Oh I see
MF
03:38
Mr Flintstone
definitely all feedback is appreciated
03:39
i agree that the harder amoveo is to use, the more expensive it will be
03:39
because there will be less competition
03:40
In reply to this message
if we can actually automate the optimal set of behavior, maybe a normal person could host a market
[
OK
03:42
O K via @gif
Animation
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51.6 KB
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03:42
[Riki]
I have been here since march but somethis this chat is so masturbatory (copyright @potat_o for that word ) that i need to go roll a joint after such convo.
OK
03:43
O K
Everybody's looking for-ward to the weekend
[
03:44
[Riki]
...in the amoveo "official" chat (we got official admins now)
+
03:46
++
In reply to this message
The more expensive what will be? The token? As in the higher the token price?
If so, that can’t possibly be true.
If so, that can’t possibly be true.
MF
03:46
Mr Flintstone
the channel fees
Z
03:46
Zack
In reply to this message
interesting ideas.
What if some of the builders end up being freeloaders? People who do less work and earn profit from everyone else's work.
Maybe it is better to split the project into pieces, and raise money for each piece separately.
It is a clever idea, this is an unexplored research area. Keep it up, and you might discover something very valuable.
What if some of the builders end up being freeloaders? People who do less work and earn profit from everyone else's work.
Maybe it is better to split the project into pieces, and raise money for each piece separately.
It is a clever idea, this is an unexplored research area. Keep it up, and you might discover something very valuable.
03:48
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
How about this: is it easy to create Amoveo? You cant just demand that stuff must be easy. Making stuff easy is a compromise between usability and implementation effort. Right now usability has been sacrifised to allow Zack to focus on the core functionality. User experience will improve. Rome wasnt built in a day and Amoveo is very young still. Just imagine what it will be in a few years, and observe how immensely cool and gamechanging Amoveo is right now
Z
03:52
Zack
It is very difficult for any individual to look at something this new and know exactly how to format every interface for usability.
Pretending we had this ability would result in wasted time.
A more viable strategy is if lots of different people try it out, and they all complain about different little things that bother them.
In this way, we will be able to incrementally approach something that is usable to the average person.
Pretending we had this ability would result in wasted time.
A more viable strategy is if lots of different people try it out, and they all complain about different little things that bother them.
In this way, we will be able to incrementally approach something that is usable to the average person.
+
03:56
++
In reply to this message
You might imagine “True” side comprised of stakers, staker-builders, nonstaker-builders.
Any staker has a disincentive to free ride since their own capital is at stake. It’s not perfect disincentive but if you have a lot riding on a bet, you are more willing to spend time, effort and money to assure a good outcome for your money.
To this end, if a staker hires a nonstaker-builder to help out, the builder may not have a bet on true but the builder could be fired by the staker if the builder sucks or is a slacker. So staker monitoring becomes the disciplining function for non-staking (salary taking) builders.
Staker-builders have skin in the game and should be incented to do what they can to see project succeed or they risk losing their stake plus incurred the interest expense.
Any staker has a disincentive to free ride since their own capital is at stake. It’s not perfect disincentive but if you have a lot riding on a bet, you are more willing to spend time, effort and money to assure a good outcome for your money.
To this end, if a staker hires a nonstaker-builder to help out, the builder may not have a bet on true but the builder could be fired by the staker if the builder sucks or is a slacker. So staker monitoring becomes the disciplining function for non-staking (salary taking) builders.
Staker-builders have skin in the game and should be incented to do what they can to see project succeed or they risk losing their stake plus incurred the interest expense.
Z
04:00
Zack
In reply to this message
I agree that the company that acts as the builder could be using traditional employment to hire the actual workers who create the product. It could be a construction company using Amoveo to get jobs.
04:02
If there are multiple stakers in a single dominant assurance contract, then the nash equilibrium switches to free-riding.
04:02
But a construction firm could act as a single staker
+
04:15
++
In reply to this message
It’s interesting because this is exactly what happens when engineering and construction firms bid for projects on a fixed price basis. The corporate entity takes the risk that they bid incorrectly, while the employees get certainty of salary. It is basically a (staker) + (nonstaker-builder) model that you could replicate with Amoveo.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
TG
11:37
Toby Ganger
are there ANY buyers for VEO? all I see is selling
S
11:49
S S
I dont mind buying 1 btc worth if its cheap
11:50
Any discount sells ??
TG
12:04
Toby Ganger
define cheap? the prices are extremely cheap relative to a few months ago
IP
14:12
I P
In reply to this message
sure there are buyers. price is down by 80+% from the top so its a bargain
TG
IP
14:13
I P
In reply to this message
did you look into btc price action recently? all shorts and dumps
TG
14:13
Toby Ganger
haha..of course
IP
14:13
I P
but for every dump there is a buyer so i wouldn't worry
TG
14:14
Toby Ganger
that's kind of a strange argument though because at current rate the buy side eventually gets wiped out and not replaced
14:15
i'm not worried at all long term
IP
TG
14:15
Toby Ganger
the short term Amoveo movement is a bit pathetic though..it's like the rest of the bearish crypto market with zero liquidity and no buyers
IP
14:15
I P
there are large buyers for veo at that levels
TG
14:16
Toby Ganger
large buyers? there's only a handful of BTC worth of orders at those levels
14:16
again, I'm not worried at all long term...it's just pathetic to watch right now
IP
TG
14:17
Toby Ganger
i will continue to HODL
I
14:34
Iridescence
I will buy 1000 VEO for 0.1 BTC - large buyer is here 😬
TG
14:58
Toby Ganger
sigh
IP
Kethan Surana invited Kethan Surana
Vitaliy invited DEATHMAN @HonDED@
D@
15:42
DEATHMAN @HonDED@
HI
N
15:52
NM$L
what price now
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
16:23
S S
Buy 20 percent now , 20 percent when the crypto bear market ends . And 60 percent when the bull market starts . Its all about preserving capital
TG
16:28
Toby Ganger
I bought in a few months ago
16:28
Now it’s time to sit and wait
16:30
Deleted Account
hi ppl) zack pool work correctly? I have 600 shares and no payout)
16:32
2048 shares = about 1 veo it stiil true?
17:42
Deleted Account
@Basementcf Payout on Zacks pool will come
but it takes time. The 2048 number may/will not be accurate for every block found, but its a good starting point for assessing profitability. I would turn to Zack for a more detailed explanation
but it takes time. The 2048 number may/will not be accurate for every block found, but its a good starting point for assessing profitability. I would turn to Zack for a more detailed explanation
17:44
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
i check last mined block) and it seems that nobody mined in zack pool) and it s take a long time to payouts)
17:44
Deleted Account
Payout is triggered when the pool finds a block. You could look up the current frequency at https://veoscan.io/blocks
17:46
I can only say that it works but it takes time, and Zack is the person to fill in the details, as he runs the pool
17:47
Deleted Account
Thx man, i understand all the details i think) low hashrate need to wait)
17:48
Deleted Account
You can get a immediate payout, but only the unpaid VEO, not the shares until they are converted to VEO
17:50
You might contact @potat_o to hear about his pool contest, making mining more profitable on his pool (he’s handing out a bonus in a period)
18:05
Sorry seems the bonus reward period is over...
S
20:54
Sy
Not sure how many are oin zacks pool, havent found any since the retarget did he?
20:55
yeah he didnt, just checked
AAA invited AAA
21:04
Deleted Account
sadly, think a alone there)))))
21:04
i*
S
OK
21:05
O K
😉😉 We'd love to have you
Z
MF
23:48
there is no point in taking liquidity out of asks
23:49
because emission just increased by like 5x, so miners have been taking bids out
12 August 2018
MF
00:09
Mr Flintstone
apparently veo is still fairly profitable even at 120-130 usd per coin
TG
00:47
Toby Ganger
It appears so
N
OK
N
01:07
NM$L
It was ＞650＄
OK
01:07
O K
Maybe you should place buy order
01:08
T
01:17
Topab
Happy for the recent designation of admins!
Deleted joined group by link from Group
TG
OK
Deleted invited Deleted Account
sd
Z
08:46
Zack
right. I did editing before making the .gitignore file
08:49
Someone contacted me saying they will do an ICO to launch a fork of Amoveo.
OK
08:49
Do tell
Z
08:50
Zack
They were curious about if they were legally allowed to, or if they needed to pay me for permission to ICO.
Once I explained that it is free software that anyone can use for any purpose without my permission, then he stopped talking.
Once I explained that it is free software that anyone can use for any purpose without my permission, then he stopped talking.
08:51
Not much to tell
OK
08:52
O K
They should pay you for the legal advice
08:55
Unless explicitly granted " free software "
It's 100% copyright and you have all legal claims to it
It's 100% copyright and you have all legal claims to it
08:55
I am not your lawyer
OK
08:56
O K
Perhaps not in Zack's jurisdiction
08:58
Deleted Account
IMHO it's good to consult lawyers - at least to legally protect the logo / trademark
OK
08:58
O K
👍
08:59
Deleted Account
Say you cannot prevent people from using the code but you can prevent them from saying "amoveo fork" or using amoveo logo or branding.
OK
09:00
O K
It would be bad if they said they said the source?
09:02
Deleted Account
Also AGPL may be great idea - since people may introduce upstream changes - and they will be legally required to give back their improvements, also to prevent copy and paste in different projects that will try to own the copyright
OK
10:15
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
no, they can use the code but they must tell everyone it is a fork of amoveo
IP
10:19
I P
why would anyone participate in such ico where they just fork the code? i mean this all seems like a huge scam on their part
MF
10:19
Mr Flintstone
let the best chain win imo
10:19
doubtful they are better than amoveo mainnet
Deleted invited Deleted Account
JT
10:37
John T.
What’s 1 amoveo worth now , is there a web exchange ?
OK
10:37
O K
I mveo is only about 15 cents
10:37
Deleted Account
will qtrade switch to mveo
S
11:33
Sebsebzen
In reply to this message
I asked you very early on, what would prevent anyone from making another Aeternity out of your project
11:33
Makes me quite concerned
11:34
Especially since there is no team or homepage
11:35
They could just take amoveo name, logo, anything and pretend to be the “real” project
11:35
Also with good marketing they could become dominant chain
11:35
Arrrrrrr
11:35
I knew this would happen
IP
11:38
I P
well basically if someone will try to raise ico money for a veo clone we can make people aware of that- and thus prevent that ico from getting funding and building community
11:39
as people don't really like when they are about to get screwed, so if we warn them- our community will grow stronger and that ico will fail
S
11:39
Sebsebzen
If they have a decent budget, their voice will be louder than ours
11:39
And even if, to what page can we redirect them. Most normies will be confused by a Git page
11:40
Most normies are, show me team, show me page, show me white paper
11:41
It will be another Aeternity situation
IP
11:47
I P
well basically people who conduct ico for amoveo fork are scammers
S
11:47
Sebsebzen
Why is that?
IP
S
11:48
Sebsebzen
Product also entails more than code
IP
11:48
I P
product is already built and is available without ico
S
11:48
Sebsebzen
UX/UI, Marketing
11:48
That’s also a product
IP
11:49
I P
while it is true, idea and code design is definitely >50% of the project
11:49
we have veo a working chain with no ico and just mining, community, block explorer, exchanges and etc
S
11:50
Sebsebzen
But without a roadmap for adoption it’s not a finished product
IP
11:50
I P
so when people raise money in ico for a veo fork they arte borderline scamming people
S
11:50
Sebsebzen
Prediction market needs users
IP
11:51
we just need a campaign to involve people to participate in bets
S
11:51
Sebsebzen
Community projects tend to fizzle out
11:53
If the ICO makes it very clear that they are raising money to propagate VEO adoption and also have a highly efficient and managed team, then it’s not really scam tho
IP
11:54
oh shi... wait
S
11:54
Sebsebzen
That was a different time
Z
11:55
Zack
imitation is a compliment, the fact that people want to copy us shows we are onto something good
IP
11:55
I P
In reply to this message
true. need to push this good with better user experience, more user friendly interface and stuff
S
11:56
Sebsebzen
Yes agree, but Zack, Steve Jobs couldn’t have pulled off the iPhone without Jony Ive as his designer
11:56
It would have been only a great proof of concept without
IP
11:58
I P
by the way, need to update browser extension to support mveo
S
12:00
Sebsebzen
The project also needs a plan for how to get the best talent for all the other aspects that are necessary to make a successful product. Where do we get the Zack equivalent for UI design, the best person for marketing, the best for community building and events, etc.
12:05
Plus lawyers to cover the trademarks
12:06
I actually hope that the ICO will be a total obvious scam
G
12:31
Ghadras
Sometimes the clone performs better...
S
13:04
Sebsebzen
I sold all my AE after Zack left, but from a price perspective they still were quite successful. Purely by marketing and snazzy WP
13:12
I can just highly recommend to watch The Founder
13:12
Movie about McDonalds and how the inventors of the franchise and concept got screwed over
S
13:16
Sebsebzen
He can tell you himself. There’s a post of him on GitHub on that too
13:16
Deleted Account
His Github?
S
13:17
Deleted Account
Thank you
Z
13:18
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8088/main.html
I made this website where you can pay VEO to make public posts.
I made this website where you can pay VEO to make public posts.
13:30
Currently it costs 0.9 mVEO to make a post.
It is targeted to have 2 posts per day. if people post faster than that, then the price will increase.
It is targeted to have 2 posts per day. if people post faster than that, then the price will increase.
IP
13:51
what if someone posts some bad shit there?
Z
13:51
Zack
it only keeps the most recent 100 for now.
13:51
I can delete posts. there is a censorship tool.
13:52
It is open source, so anyone can run a website like this.
Or you can redo the front end entirely, and just use this fee mechanism to control how much your website gets used.
Or you can redo the front end entirely, and just use this fee mechanism to control how much your website gets used.
DY
15:45
Demi Yilmaz
I'm back from vacation and wow this is amazing. We have admins here, moderators on discord, wow much community, very team, wow
@potat_o for making videos what type of content do we need? Just making a video and putting it out there doesn't do much except for a little SEO. I believe it'll create a better impact if we get Zack on interview with youtubers with high followers.
@potat_o for making videos what type of content do we need? Just making a video and putting it out there doesn't do much except for a little SEO. I believe it'll create a better impact if we get Zack on interview with youtubers with high followers.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
16:01
Deleted Account
nice I'm #1000
IP
A
16:32
Aries
Congrats Zack!
DY
Crypto FROG (Real - wont DM you/Don't DM me) invited Crypto FROG (Real - wont DM you/Don't DM me)
AK
17:02
Alex K
🎊 🎈 🎉
F
Tromp invited Tromp
19:57
Deleted Account
We can just do a nice homepage of veo. So why should someone invest in an ICO, when they wont have the core developer on board? If they fork, they have to tell that they do a fork of amoveo. And from my point of understanding, the art how the code is written is under zacks copyright. And an ICO is for collecting money for, so we have already a working mainnet and a working project. They could collect money for a use case of amoveo. If this will be succesful, then other will follow and will fork amoveo. And this will be the best marketing for amoveo itself.
19:59
We have the core person on board. And thats what counts. People invest in a team and not in an idea.
19:59
I think we are already a Team here 💪
20:00
I am very busy at the moment with some other projects. But i can make a nice concept of a page soon and also get my designer and developer on it.
S
22:06
Sebsebzen
I talked to designer and we wanted to finish the light wallet UI improvement first
22:07
Actually a white paper would be cool too
22:07
Just kind of take the GitHub scattered texts and reorder it with a index at the beginning and put into a Word doc
OK
S
22:11
Sebsebzen
sure sure, the Word I meant for further tweaking
22:11
by designer
OK
22:11
O K
👌
S
22:11
Sebsebzen
end version for sure PDF
Z
22:52
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/white_paper.md
You would change the white paper?
You would change the white paper?
OK
23:07
O K
We would take the white paper as it reads and make it convenient for average people to:
- Download and read offline
- read on an ebook reader
- print with a single click
In the same format as other popular coins, such as bitcoin.
- Download and read offline
- read on an ebook reader
- print with a single click
In the same format as other popular coins, such as bitcoin.
23:08
That's not the same as "changing" it
OK
23:24
O K
Maybe we can add a statement about how it's intended to be hosted in a repository like github
23:24
And a link to the github
S
23:41
Sebsebzen
Thats more light paper
23:41
There is a lot of information on the Git that can be collated into a WP
13 August 2018
01:01
Deleted Account
I think we are past white paper. White paper is before construction begins?
OK
01:11
O K
In reply to this message
What would you call the document that someone would read who is hearing of the project for the first time and wants to learn more?
01:11
Usually we point them to the whitepaper
Z
01:29
Zack
The amoveo print-out.
01:30
The amoveo physical introduction.
01:31
tactile paper
OK
01:31
O K
power paper
01:31
p-p-p-p-power paper
Z
01:32
Zack
http://www.powerpaper.cn/
These paper battery people probably don't want us calling it that
These paper battery people probably don't want us calling it that
OK
01:32
O K
😂
M
01:39
Mike
Grey paper maybe
[
01:41
[Riki]
Grey paper + meaning of "amoveo" = fun
OK
01:41
O K
Grey Love Vision [Fun] Paper?
01:42
That sounds a bit weird Riki
[
01:42
[Riki]
well we just dropped below 1k subs again
01:42
Time to be creative
01:43
Or we go for btc something
OK
01:43
O K
灰色爱情视觉趣味纸
[
01:43
[Riki]
Rebrand to Btc future
T
01:44
Tromp
What are amoveo use cases?
ŽM
Z
01:49
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/tree/master/docs/use-cases-and-ideas
we also have a use-cases section of the docs.
we also have a use-cases section of the docs.
T
01:49
Tromp
Thanks 🍺
01:54
Deleted Account
Who runs amoveobook?
OK
OK
Z
01:55
Zack
nice! the amoveo brochure
01:56
Deleted Account
Im sure white paper is fine as well, but I would think Zack should be the editor of that one
Z
01:56
Zack
I am thinking of making a market on this oracle question:
"Either Vlad Zamfir, Vitalik Buterin, or Andreas Antonopoulos made a tweet about Amoveo after August 10 and before the oracle expires."
"Either Vlad Zamfir, Vitalik Buterin, or Andreas Antonopoulos made a tweet about Amoveo after August 10 and before the oracle expires."
01:57
The Official Amoveo Pamphlet.
01:59
Deleted Account
Perhaps have someone write a series of blog posts: «introduction to amoveo», «betting in an amoveo market», «understanding the amoveo prediction market order book» etc
01:59
That would be a nice place to point a new user
02:00
And then the white paper in nice pdf formatting for those who are «still not bored»
T
02:01
Tromp
Do you want exposure to the project right now ir wait until development is more adavanced?
Z
02:02
Zack
In reply to this message
I am trying to build a small audience of regular users of the market smart contracts.
Then we will do development to make the markets easier to use based on their user experience.
Then we will do development to make the markets easier to use based on their user experience.
T
Z
02:06
Zack
Several people used the recent futarchy market recently. There were 17 orders I didn't place.
That was our biggest market so far.
That was our biggest market so far.
OK
02:09
O K
In reply to this message
I would describe the current wallet as a bit like a space shuttle dashboard to an average person, but we are working on something that is a bit more streamlined and appealing to average users, with the same functionality
T
02:13
Tromp
In reply to this message
Hahahaa yeah i am no programmer or anything it took me awhile to understand the wallet’s UI
02:14
Plan on being a miner for some years, i know Zack is a top programmer. Anything i can do to help get the project going im all for it 🍺
OK
T
02:16
Tromp
Already on it 🤙🏻
OK
02:16
O K
Thanks!
T
02:16
Tromp
👍🏻👍🏻
02:17
How is the profitability right now? I dont really have electricity costs so i dont know how to meassure it
OK
02:18
O K
I think with the recent difficulty retargeting changes it's good, there are few opportunity costs, especially for speculators
T
02:21
Tromp
Well i mean if you are mining right now and amoveo achieves the marketcap of Augur for some reason in the future then it should be a very good deal
Z
02:24
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8080/explorer.html
I made the market to try and influence someone famous to make a tweet.
To help pay for the tweet, bet on "False".
To get paid for the tweet, bet on "True".
I made the market to try and influence someone famous to make a tweet.
To help pay for the tweet, bet on "False".
To get paid for the tweet, bet on "True".
OK
02:26
O K
Is either/or the same as xor?
Z
02:27
Zack
no.
xor and or are different.either and or are the same
02:27
True xor True == False
02:27
True or True == True
OK
02:28
O K
I know
xor and or are different
02:29
but
either implies xor not or as I read it
02:29
The coin will land either heads or tails
Z
02:32
Zack
oh, you are right. people do use 'either' like 'xor' sometimes. I guess it is not a good oracle question.
Do you think the the context is enough to make up for it? It would be a really weird question if we interpreted either as "xor".
Do you think the the context is enough to make up for it? It would be a really weird question if we interpreted either as "xor".
02:32
I think maybe I'm thinking too hard about it
02:33
It is probably okay, and since you've clarified we know what you mean now
Z
02:33
Zack
In the future maybe something like "one or more of the people in this list: [Foo, Bar]"
02:33
too bad english is so imprecise
OK
02:33
O K
I suspect everyone knows what you mean, until they are losing money and arguing about it retroactively
02:33
🙂
MF
02:47
Mr Flintstone
why not just use “ at least one of” instead of “either”
02:47
oh nvm that was already said
AK
03:11
A K
we know English and JS are bad for [smart] contracts amirite? ))
MF
03:21
Mr Flintstone
I feel like we can be precise enough with our oracle language. it might take some time to have solid norms tho
03:22
Deleted Account
A=? And B=? If you say Y=A xor B, then Y is either (A and B) or (not A and not B)
03:23
So its the same except either will «precalculate» the two terms for xor
03:23
In a question that would mean more verbosity, but perhaps easier to parse
03:24
I have experienced that even people with masters degree dont know how XOR works, so I generally avoid it
03:25
Perhaps: A is if ... happens. B is if ... happens. The oracle is true if either both A and B or neither A or B.
03:25
Sorry. ... A nor B
03:28
Inproved wording: A is if ... happens. B is if ... happens. The oracle is true if both A and B, or none of them.
Z
03:29
Zack
looks like switching to mVEO messed up the display of channel balance.
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Z
04:18
Zack
it was a mess to clean up.
The SPK data was bad, so I couldn't use normal tools to close the channel.
I had to write the tx manually, and copy paste back and forth to the light client to sign it.
The SPK data was bad, so I couldn't use normal tools to close the channel.
I had to write the tx manually, and copy paste back and forth to the light client to sign it.
+
04:27
++
In reply to this message
What if you created a set of standardized primitives for single bets. Could then allow individuals to combine the primitives how ever they like for more complicated bets while still allowing others to make simple bets on the primitives. There would also be arbitrage betting opportunities created if individual bets don’t aggregate in the way they should (like put-call parity conditions for option contracts)
A good analogy is what happened in the development of futures markets. Ease of trading significantly increased (and so did trading volumes as a result) once terms for a given commodity were standardized and individuals could use the primitives like pieces of a puzzle to put together the exact risk/bet they wanted to make.
Same with option contracts. Can combine puts and calls of different dates and strikes to change what pay-off structure and the variables that matter for a given bet one wants to make.
A good analogy is what happened in the development of futures markets. Ease of trading significantly increased (and so did trading volumes as a result) once terms for a given commodity were standardized and individuals could use the primitives like pieces of a puzzle to put together the exact risk/bet they wanted to make.
Same with option contracts. Can combine puts and calls of different dates and strikes to change what pay-off structure and the variables that matter for a given bet one wants to make.
+
04:49
++
For example.
Could have
1) a bet that A occurs by a certain date.
2) a bet that B occurs by a certain date.
Then some people might bet on A only (betting true is like a long position, betting False I’d like a short position)
Some might bet on B only.
Some might bet on both A and on B being true
Etc, etc
Could have
1) a bet that A occurs by a certain date.
2) a bet that B occurs by a certain date.
Then some people might bet on A only (betting true is like a long position, betting False I’d like a short position)
Some might bet on B only.
Some might bet on both A and on B being true
Etc, etc
Z
05:15
Zack
I made a couple fixes. Now the api prevents you from making channels that can't be closed, and the light node reads the inputs in correctly.
IP
05:31
Especially cool if that is done not by Zack so he can continue to focus on core dev
A
05:45
Aries
999 members 😠
Deleted invited Deleted Account
JS
06:09
Jon Snow
1000 members
E
06:10
EdoFazlinovic
🎉🎊
A
06:12
Aries
😄
S
A. SD1MKT invited A. SD1MKT
Z
06:58
Zack
I think "neither" is the same as "none"
Z
08:06
Zack
I think we have like 3 or 4 1000th members now.
OK
08:12
O K
Even better
Z
08:20
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8080/explorer.html
Looks like these people can win 0.6 VEO for making a twitter post
Looks like these people can win 0.6 VEO for making a twitter post
08:20
or, a lobbyist could take the money, and then convince one of them to make a twitter post.
Nic Carter invited Nic Carter
L
09:00
Larry
Nic Carter like...Nic Carter?
NC
09:06
Nic Carter
are there other nic carters?
L
09:15
Larry
?
09:15
MF
NC
10:00
Nic Carter
lol yea it's the nic carter
10:00
I was just curious about amoveo
10:00
didn't realize I was considered notorious
OK
10:01
O K
Aren't you a rapper?
NC
10:01
Nic Carter
not to my knowledge...
L
10:06
Jay Z
10:06
or Dwayne Carter?
10:06
Lil wayne
OK
10:06
O K
Lil Wayne carter I think
L
10:06
Larry
THE nic carter
10:06
wow wow wow
10:06
amoveo secret is out
A
10:07
Aries
lol
Z
13:41
Zack
About 5 months left till I can access the dev reward.
13:41
5 months 10 days since main net launch.
IP
13:44
I P
Damn why veo price tanks so much right now
13:44
I thought it is going to 300$
13:44
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DY
13:45
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
how will the accessing work? Will you receive all of it? Or part by part? Cause a small percentage was added everyday. So it will have been 10 months since the first veo was dropped there and 10 minutes since the last.
Z
13:52
Zack
it will all be accessible at one block height.
13:54
Cryptocurrencies fluctuate in price a lot when they are small. This is to be expected.
There is a natural relationship between the expected growth rate of the price of a token, and the volatility.
Impossible to avoid volatility is the price is growing too fast.
There is a natural relationship between the expected growth rate of the price of a token, and the volatility.
Impossible to avoid volatility is the price is growing too fast.
S
H
15:51
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
Why dump?
AK
15:51
A K
inflation kicks in!
15:52
lower diff -> supply increased
IP
J
16:02
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
In reply to this message
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IP
16:03
I P
Sticker
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AK
16:03
A K
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|
16:10
|̲̅V̲̅I̲̅P̲̅|Paul
Hi,all
I hava a ring (1060 3g *6), can you tell me how the hashrate ? thank u
I hava a ring (1060 3g *6), can you tell me how the hashrate ? thank u
F
16:19
Just start here
16:19
move your way up to the mining tips
16:19
all well documented on github
D@
AK
16:39
A K
1.8 GH/s ?
16:39
Deleted Account
which miner?)
16:39
i have 1.5 on 3gb and 1.68 on 6gb
16:40
think i find)
S
17:47
Sebsebzen
How much did inflation increase?
S
17:54
Sy
increase?
17:54
jimboSlice - letzten Samstag um 01:12 Uhr
after 1 year, the annual inflation rate will be like 100% for the next year
then 50%
then 33% etc
y = 1/x
after 1 year, the annual inflation rate will be like 100% for the next year
then 50%
then 33% etc
y = 1/x
AK
18:44
A K
In reply to this message
Observed increased, cos veo had a period of extra low inflation. Now back to normal, yet compared to months ago coin supply is higher
18:49
Deleted Account
Better to be transparent regarding inflation ratio than to say it's irrelevant
OK
IP
20:28
we can vote to reduce block reward...
20:28
actually, could we do it now?😃😃
AK
20:36
A K
and fuck miners, who needs them anyway
DY
20:48
Demi Yilmaz
I would also fuk the miners and decrease the reward but we need to keep the blockchain running so I guess 10 min blocks and enough veo for the miners are needed. Same goes for miners, they can increaee the block reward to 100.000 mveo but then all of us investors will lose our reason to invest thus the price will tank. I’ve mentioned this as a risk in my analyses: https://bitses.org/analyses/amoveo-demiculus/
This was from may, i can add more to the analysis but kind of lazy to do it at this point.
This was from may, i can add more to the analysis but kind of lazy to do it at this point.
AK
20:52
A K
btw diff went down on 28900
20:52
some planned changes or just some miner left?
20:53
Deleted Account
I like it when I see Amoveo people in other Telegram cryptocurrency groups! It's like meeting a bro in a bar, @kitty123 what do you think about NKN?
IP
20:54
I P
In reply to this message
i think that funds will need to unload their ico tokens and decentralized intenet protocol is pretty hyped theme
20:54
so when market gets better it will be listed on binance and pumped like ont
20:55
you want to dump that shit on that pump and buy veo
20:57
Deleted Account
Interesting, it was really close in the community coin vote for sure
21:19
We can add amoveo to coinpaprika
DY
F
22:02
loaded with great info
14 August 2018
А
OK
05:09
O K
Which ubuntu are you running?
05:09
@RobinHooD_ex Ubuntu 16.04, 18.04 ?
А
05:10
Андрюхин
16.04
OK
05:11
O K
If you have definitely installed these:
Then make sure you have installed this specific version:
sudo apt-get install libcpprest-dev libncurses5-dev libssl-dev unixodbc-dev g++ gitThen make sure you have installed this specific version:
wget https://github.com/PhamHuong92/VeoMiner/releases/download/2.5/veominer_Ubuntu16_2.5.tar.gz
tar -xzvf veominer_Ubuntu16_2.5.tar.gz
А
05:12
Андрюхин
In reply to this message
Yes, I have the latest version of miner. Thanks for your help.
OK
05:13
Ubuntu 18.04 uses a different version of libcpprest — they are both the latest version of the miner
05:13
If you use the 18.04 one on 16.04 you will get the error
А
05:14
Андрюхин
Ok. I'm installing right now. I think your first command will install all dependencies
OK
05:44
O K
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Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
05:58
Mr Flintstone
wow this bribery market is pretty popular
А
06:17
Андрюхин
In reply to this message
There’s too much information. If I need short answer it’s easier and faster to ask here.
OK
Z
06:31
Zack
In reply to this message
feel free to ask questions here.
Bonus points if you take notes in Russian and send them to me.
Bonus points if you take notes in Russian and send them to me.
AlexShelpin invited AlexShelpin
A
OK
10:03
Welcome
Z
MF
12:33
Mr Flintstone
cool
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Don Ele joined group by link from Group
Deleted invited Deleted Account
AK
20:00
A K
node EWAH at c.46 TH/s
A
21:13
Aries
Hmmm so
21:13
Let’s say I wanted to post a prediction
21:14
Omarosa releases President Trump audio before midnight or end of the week. Of him saying the N word
21:16
In retaliation of him calling her a dog.
21:20
hmm
ES
21:20
Ed Sonic
Maybe bets on if or not the tape exist
A
21:21
Aries
Yes, That might be better Market than predicting on how long she will wait to retiliate for him calling her a dog.
21:21
by releasing the N word audio.
21:25
@edlydds
but who knows if the tape even exist.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a22705217/omarosa-trump-n-word-tape/
but who knows if the tape even exist.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a22705217/omarosa-trump-n-word-tape/
MF
22:20
Mr Flintstone
I think this is possible
ŽM
22:32
Živojin Mirić
Never would have guessed that I'll read about trump on amoveo chat
MKUltra invited MKUltra
M
OK
22:35
O K
😂
S
22:35
Subby
I'd lean with fake, why threaten something that undisputable
M
22:35
MKUltra
Just kidding. I just wanted to make a splash
22:35
I’m here for the tech
ŽM
M
Z
22:52
Zack
In reply to this message
There is software that can make a voice like trump's say anything.
S
22:53
Subby
In reply to this message
Surely there's software that can say if it's real or not though
22:54
I saw the Adobe software you speak of
OK
S
22:55
Or you being sarcastic
OK
22:55
O K
It's a photoshopper's joke
S
22:57
Subby
How many people are buying photos
MF
23:12
Mr Flintstone
people that tweet bitmex referral links may be more willing to be publicly bribed by an amoveo market than others
Z
23:14
Zack
makes sense
AK
23:15
A K
what about trademark
23:15
what’s our (dare I say our :) approach?
23:15
do we care/not care, do we file, etc
23:15
Bitcoin and Linux have it fugured out, we need smth, too
15 August 2018
com invited com
00:52
Deleted Account
I added mining pool list page on veoscan. Let's decentralize Amoveo mining.
https://veoscan.io/mining
https://veoscan.io/mining
Scarrff invited Scarrff
OK
00:52
O K
Nice work catweed 👍
IP
01:03
I P
Sticker
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MF
02:55
Mr Flintstone
not exactly sure what your question is
MF
03:10
Mr Flintstone
You can’t create money out of thin air
03:11
when you double your money, you are taking someone else’s money
03:16
the person who bet on the other side of the outcome
YinyanGijon invited YinyanGijon
S
05:10
Sy
well you dont just "double" your money, the other side has to be as big as you bet - but you grab that falsely betted money and it gets divided by the "defense" 😎
05:10
it IS free money after all, just a little bonus for paying attention, there might be a whole business model in this ^^
MF
05:34
Mr Flintstone
all kinds of businesses can be built on amoveo
06:37
damn it I should of made this market.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
A invited A
A
07:35
A
Hi
07:35
What is veo?
MF
A
07:36
A
Thanks
MF
A
07:39
A
Yeah got that
07:39
Did it had a pre-mine?
OK
07:59
O K
No, but it has a developer reward of 200 mveo per block
08:00
It's locked until the future
A
08:06
A
Haha bye
[
08:08
[Riki]
He left before asking about masternodes 🤔
MF
08:26
Mr Flintstone
whoa diff went up to 34 th/ block?
08:27
Oh nvm, was looking at an un-synced node
OK
08:38
O K
Hahaha
OK
09:46
O K
In reply to this message
If you make this market for Larken Rose making a youtube video about Amoveo, I will bet 2 veo false within 24 hours
Deleted invited Deleted Account
AK
10:22
Deleted Account
Anyone helping me setup minner pools?
A
OK
10:35
O K
A mining pool? I could help you set up Zack's probably -- wouldn't it be less expensive to just mine at amoveopool.com for a measly 1% though?
10:35
I've never denied anyone help, just let me know where you need help
Deleted invited Deleted Account
M
13:25
MKUltra
Rudy Giuliani on CNN...
Host: No, facts are not in the eye of the beholder.
Giuliani: Nowadays they are.....
Host: No, facts are not in the eye of the beholder.
Giuliani: Nowadays they are.....
13:27
Sticker
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13:28
Maybe prediction markets can help society solve this fake news, alternative facts, epidemic that we seem to have
Z
13:54
Zack
Prediction markets can only reveal the truth early.
Prediction markets can teach us things now that will eventually become common knowledge in the future.
If some fact will never be common knowledge, then we cannot use a prediction market to find out.
For example, we can have a prediction market that say "Buzz Aldrin publicly admits that he has never been on the moon."
We cannot have a prediction market that say "The moon landings were fake."
Prediction markets can teach us things now that will eventually become common knowledge in the future.
If some fact will never be common knowledge, then we cannot use a prediction market to find out.
For example, we can have a prediction market that say "Buzz Aldrin publicly admits that he has never been on the moon."
We cannot have a prediction market that say "The moon landings were fake."
Z
14:24
Zack
4 outcome conditional market. Price depth graph.
14:27
I've been thinking about what we should display for the 4 outcome conditional market.
If the 4 prices add up to above $1, then we can match trades.
So in this graph the radial direction is the amount of Veo you want to trade, and the tangent distance is the price you are willing to pay.
So if it wraps all the way around the circle, it means some trades will get matched.
If the 4 prices add up to above $1, then we can match trades.
So in this graph the radial direction is the amount of Veo you want to trade, and the tangent distance is the price you are willing to pay.
So if it wraps all the way around the circle, it means some trades will get matched.
14:37
Deleted Account
Whoa
14:38
So if you have four outcomes, what orders will match eachother?
Z
14:40
Zack
Game theory restricts us here. We need to match at prices so that we are nearly maximizing the number of trades being matched.
14:41
Deleted Account
Say the outcomes are A, B, C and D. It seems A-B, B-C, C-D, D-A, but not A-C and B-D?
Z
14:41
Zack
When prices are selected, every trade that can be matched at the price, is matched at the price.
14:41
0.25 - 0.25 - 0.3 - 0.2 all 4 would me matched, because it adds up to something >= 1.
14:42
Deleted Account
Or more like if i bet on A, then I am matched with all B, C and D?
Z
14:42
Zack
It is like tetris. if you get a complete row, it disappears.
14:42
Deleted Account
I see
Z
14:43
Zack
yes, if you bet on A, then your bet can be matched with people who bet on B, C and D.
14:43
Deleted Account
As if the current graph was not hard enough to understand :)
14:43
Hehe
Z
14:44
Zack
it is possible the prices are 0 - 0 - 0.6 - 0.5, and then the market could match the trades on C and D, even though no one bet on A and B.
This is great for the market. If A or B happens, the market wins both sides of the bet.
This is great for the market. If A or B happens, the market wins both sides of the bet.
14:44
I bring this up hoping someone else will have ideas on how to display this data in an understandable way.
14:45
Deleted Account
This would perhaps solve the discussion we had about forks and wording...
14:46
A 4 way bet... nevermind
14:50
If you selected the option you were interested in, you could use the old chart for true=A and false=B-C-D
14:51
Actually the current chart would be much easier to understand also if the user selected a «viewpoint» true or false before generating the graph
Z
14:52
Zack
I expect many people to buy 2 types.
Your idea still works for that too.
True = a b, false = c d.
This is a good idea, as we could reuse our current graphing software.
Your idea still works for that too.
True = a b, false = c d.
This is a good idea, as we could reuse our current graphing software.
14:52
Deleted Account
I guess the user will mostly just be interested in placing a bet for one option
14:52
Ok
Z
14:52
Zack
The graph is symmetric
14:53
Some people could even buy 3 types.
14:54
Deleted Account
A text widget would work well also:
volume - priceA - priceB - priceC - priceD
volume - priceA - priceB - priceC - priceD
etc
volume - priceA - priceB - priceC - priceD
volume - priceA - priceB - priceC - priceD
etc
14:56
Betting on many options at once is difficult because how do you deal with existing orders...
14:56
You need to split your bet somehow
Z
14:57
Zack
Yes, deciding the ratio to buy in could be complicated
14:58
Deleted Account
I think making this automated would cause some user surprises... the system could suggest a ratio based on current open orders though. It is possible
15:01
As a side mention, I am leaning towards using odds in decimal format rather than price for the UI (the backend could still use price). This is more intuitive from a betters point of view, and would add familiarity for those who have ever placed a bet eg in a football match
15:06
Like the current chart, you could easily swap true and false and mirror the graph curve. You could perhaps have one curve for each option, the left being the plotted option and the right being the sum of other options.
15:07
Then the user would have full overview and could place any number of bets in one go (with separate amount+price for each bet)
15:08
So one chart for each option
15:39
Deleted Account
15:39
Something like this
15:41
Maybe a log scale on x axis is better also
B Ar invited B Ar
20:06
20:09
The inner square is where the sums add up to price=1 (i have written decimal odds, sorry). Next square outside that is the highest bid per choice. The area is the bid amount. The numbers between these lines is the amount of veo you would have to bet, and the odds in order to match the next chunk.
20:13
You might even grow the sectors to show dominance, something like this:
20:13
20:14
So for instance if you bet 500 mVEO at 1.999 odds, the two inner squares/circles will coincide
J
20:32
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
In reply to this message
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Gabriel invited Gabriel
VV Enth invited VV Enth
VE
23:40
VV Enth
Hi all, where can i find the price for Amoveo?
OK
16 August 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Maxim Orlovsky invited Maxim Orlovsky
M
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
04:59
No one has used the feed yet.
I feel like it is nearly doing something useful.
Can you think of any way to improve it?
I feel like it is nearly doing something useful.
Can you think of any way to improve it?
Z
05:17
Zack
Maybe we need to post some controversial stuff to get people's attention?
05:17
Or we could post some useful investor info, and once investors show up, advertisers follow to start a cycle?
AK
05:28
Alex K
It looks a bit complicated.
If you want investors to show up we need:
1. Nice website with roadmap
2. Friendly wallet
3. Listing on some reputable exchange
4. Use cases that is easy to understand and try
If you want investors to show up we need:
1. Nice website with roadmap
2. Friendly wallet
3. Listing on some reputable exchange
4. Use cases that is easy to understand and try
Z
05:30
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/community_roadmap.md
roadmap
friendly wallet: http://139.59.144.76:8080/wallet.html
qtrade and amoveo.exchange are reputable enough
gambling is simple
roadmap
friendly wallet: http://139.59.144.76:8080/wallet.html
qtrade and amoveo.exchange are reputable enough
gambling is simple
05:31
Deleted Account
@mon4lis4 no all the numbers are wrong for the sketch. Also scaling and such. Ill make a better mockup maybe tomorrow
AK
05:38
Alex K
Zack, let's make a poll, I'm sure most users won't find current wallet UI "friendly"
VE
Andrew invited Andrew
OK
06:55
In reply to this message
Anyway the community is fixing the wallet with an actual friendly wallet, don't worry
S
07:14
Subby
Yeah that wallet is confusing af
T
10:58
Topab
I think the person writing this is not understangding a thing about it, even though is making some interesting points about Augur failure https://multicoin.capital/2018/08/08/aggregation-theory-thin-protocols-and-recentralization-augur-edition/
11:12
Deleted Account
Zack is it possible for 2 different pub keys of the same HD wallet say that they are related, not knowing a seed?
DY
13:29
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
The feed is useless. It's competitor is facebook/twitter feed. It needs to be 10x better than competition, where it is worse. If you got rapists, hitman, pedophiles to post ads there it could be useful because that can't post on fb/twitter.
Though they may already have their place to go. So maybe it isn't even 10x better for them too.
I suggest focus on markets.
Though they may already have their place to go. So maybe it isn't even 10x better for them too.
I suggest focus on markets.
13:33
In reply to this message
Zack you can update the roadmap. No need for exchange anymore.
Also I agree that the wallet is not noob friendly. It is dev friendly. But that is not your concern, you should foucs on the blockchain not UX, that is our job.
3. listing on reputable exchange; wont bring more value to Amoveo only maybe speculation, we need to figure out markets & how to make them usefull. The last few ones were pretty good imo, if we continue on this path I'm sure we'll eventually hit a killer market.
4. Markets is still hard to understand. There is logical statements where I don't understand it by just looking at it. I need to use brain juice in order to understand. It needs to be really simple. But I'm sure we'll figure it out.
Also I agree that the wallet is not noob friendly. It is dev friendly. But that is not your concern, you should foucs on the blockchain not UX, that is our job.
3. listing on reputable exchange; wont bring more value to Amoveo only maybe speculation, we need to figure out markets & how to make them usefull. The last few ones were pretty good imo, if we continue on this path I'm sure we'll eventually hit a killer market.
4. Markets is still hard to understand. There is logical statements where I don't understand it by just looking at it. I need to use brain juice in order to understand. It needs to be really simple. But I'm sure we'll figure it out.
15:51
Deleted Account
15:51
The text is just the data
15:53
Mockup for multibet tetris style
16:11
Deleted Account
Decimal odds are 1/price
16:41
Deleted Account
In hindsight im not sure if i like that the sector widths reflect price/odds
19:38
Deleted Account
I may have found a good application for Amoveo: betting on house prices. People could bet on a house price while the sale was ongoing. The prediction market would be useful for the buyers of the house. Ideally they would pay to see the results of the prediction market before the oracle resolved.
19:40
Hmm. The market is probably not that big though. Per house that is
SuprHash invited SuprHash
20:20
Deleted Account
All the customers of the company I work for are betting sites, I wonder if they are looking into these kind of prediction markets
DV
21:37
Denis Voskvitsov
I'd like to present a little service I've made recently: https://amoveo.tools
here you can find visualization of hashrate, difficulty changes and block times
going to add more tools and links soon
here you can find visualization of hashrate, difficulty changes and block times
going to add more tools and links soon
21:40
Deleted Account
Looks nice!
IP
21:40
I P
yeah, great, looks nice. can add it to recource list for amoveo
MF
21:43
Mr Flintstone
very nice, thank you !
Z
DV
21:53
Denis Voskvitsov
thanks guys!
17 August 2018
00:04
Deleted Account
Great!
Z
03:44
Zack
We should find an expensive textbook that lots of people need to buy which is currently not available by torrent.
OK
03:47
O K
Re: availability be sure to check
libgen.io too
S
OK
03:52
O K
In reply to this message
If you have access to studies that aren't public, you might share them there
Z
03:52
Zack
How about "Webster's spanish english dictionary"
OK
03:52
O K
In reply to this message
I like the general idea, but this seems kind of like offering the encyclopedia britannica
03:52
who needs it?
03:53
Let me do some amazon digging really quick on sales rank
Z
03:53
Zack
Amazon says it is the second most popular textbook they sell. I don't see a torrent available for it.
OK
03:53
O K
How expensive is it?
Z
03:54
Zack
$4.
OK
03:54
O K
I don't know man, people who are buying that are buying that because they want it in front of them, not because they have no choice
03:54
Some classes, a textbook is $200, and is required
Z
03:54
Zack
yes, that is right.
03:54
the expensive ones are better
03:55
looks like 11th edition of Biology by Campwell isn't on pirate bay
OK
03:56
O K
Just as an example, availability to rent, and small difference between lowest used price and new price is a good indicator that the book would do well to be freed
03:58
03:58
The closer the sales rank is to 1, the faster the item is likely to sell at the market price
03:58
(in a given category)
03:58
for all books, for our purposes anything over 150,000 can safely be ignored
Z
04:00
Zack
textbook demand probably follows an annual pattern
04:01
prices during off-season could be low
OK
04:01
O K
9th edition is the latest Campbell Biology on libgen
Z
04:01
Zack
yes
OK
04:01
O K
In the states people are buying books as we speak
04:01
For fall semester, the biggest semester
Z
04:02
Zack
oh, great
OK
04:02
O K
'biggest' -- most popular, and more likely to be people's first
Z
04:02
Zack
How do we know if the torrent is valid?
We need someone who already has the book to check
We need someone who already has the book to check
04:03
I wonder if there are any legal repercussions for making a market about whether Campbell Biology 11th edition will be available as a torrent
04:04
Which country should I do the server from?
OK
04:05
O K
Which countries frequently produce counterfeit items (evidence that copyright, trademark is not strictly enforced)
S
04:06
Scarrff
Cambodia has no copyright laws
04:08
Deleted Account
Campbell Biology 11th edition is in libgen. It's in page 2
Z
04:08
Zack
I don't think this breaks copywrite law
04:08
catweed is right
04:09
It seems like torrenting already works well for very popular content.
Maybe we should focus on niche markets, for content that a small community of people want badly.
Maybe we should focus on niche markets, for content that a small community of people want badly.
04:13
Fundamentals of Nursing 9th edition by Potter and Perry
04:15
looking at the reviews on Amazon, Potter and Perry deserve to have their book pirated
04:37
Deleted Account
You guys lost me. Why is Amoveo currently in the book pirating business? Once you get enough hits, it just generates noise?
04:38
Scientific papers are what NEEDS to be open
04:38
All of Elsevier would be nice
04:42
I think scihub is working on that one though
Z
04:43
Zack
the book publishing industry is huge
04:46
Deleted Account
Why pirating though for Amoveo?
t
04:48
tunez 💙🚀
<3
04:52
Deleted Account
If you were into torrents any site with torrent search without ads/porn/popups should be popular. Torrents can be indexed by joining the network with different addresses. Id pay veo to access this site.
04:53
Seems all such sites vanish. Wonder why?
Z
05:11
Zack
for oracles it needs to be publicly available data. the pirate bay works fine.
OK
M
MF
10:08
Mr Flintstone
veo needs to go on quite the run to hit 300 in the next 4 days 😂
IP
J
10:44
JakeThePanda
Is VEO trading anywhere?
OK
Z
13:10
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8080/explorer.html
Looks like a >50% chance of $300 in the next 4 days
Looks like a >50% chance of $300 in the next 4 days
J
Z
14:39
Zack
I am thinking of making some prediction market like "This oracle will resolve to True".
And then I will only bet on false, at a price of 0.1
So if anyone bets against me, they can get their money back plus 10% more.
This way we can pay people to do early testing, and we can get the channels to be more usable.
And then I will only bet on false, at a price of 0.1
So if anyone bets against me, they can get their money back plus 10% more.
This way we can pay people to do early testing, and we can get the channels to be more usable.
IP
Z
15:01
Zack
I added a function to the full node.
It shows all the oracles where betting has started, and the oracle hasn't been settled yet.
This way you can quickly know if there are any opportunities to make a profit from the oracle.
oracles:ready_for_bets().It shows all the oracles where betting has started, and the oracle hasn't been settled yet.
This way you can quickly know if there are any opportunities to make a profit from the oracle.
15:05
I documented this new feature on this page: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/api/commands_oracle.md
A
18:17
Aries
18:17
Lol
Deleted invited Deleted Account
18 August 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
+
06:41
++
In reply to this message
You kinda have a measurement problem here. Sometimes referred to as “Wittgenstein’s Ruler”
“Unless you have confidence in the ruler’s reliability, if you use a ruler to measure a table you may also be using the table to measure the ruler.”
With the bet, I’m not so sure you are capturing anything close to the actual likelihood that VEO is > $300 by a certain block. You may be simply reflecting problems with the market design and frictions to fixing it.
“Unless you have confidence in the ruler’s reliability, if you use a ruler to measure a table you may also be using the table to measure the ruler.”
With the bet, I’m not so sure you are capturing anything close to the actual likelihood that VEO is > $300 by a certain block. You may be simply reflecting problems with the market design and frictions to fixing it.
Z
06:43
Zack
There is so little money at stake, and it is still complicated to use channels, so yes you are probably right. It is not accurately measuring the probability of >$300.
+
06:46
++
In reply to this message
It’s still fuzzy to me about what happens if VEO price < $300 by the given block while the most dollars are staked on VEO>$300.
Does the oracle resolve
“True”
Or
“False”?
Does the oracle resolve
“True”
Or
“False”?
Z
06:47
Zack
if Veo > $300, it resolves to true.
+
06:51
++
In reply to this message
I appreciate the response but the answer is to a different question that is easy to understand and I did not ask.
I asked if VEO< $300, and more money continues to be staked on the opposite, does the oracle resolve True or False?
I asked if VEO< $300, and more money continues to be staked on the opposite, does the oracle resolve True or False?
Z
06:52
Zack
if the price of VEO > $300, it will resolve as true. It does not matter how we bet in the channels.
OK
06:54
O K
Sometimes Zack has problems reading the directions of the little triangles
06:55
If veo < $300, and more money is staked on the opposite, the oracle resolves to false
+
06:57
I kinda think we should run this and a bunch of other similar factual event bets to let people see exactly what happens given the object outcome of an event, the amount staked on each side and the oracle resolutions.
06:59
Let the waiting period be 10 minutes so you can actually show folks that care what happens in all the scenarios over a lot of case examples.
I know for certain that the explanations thus far in the git doc and on the chat have have many confused.
I know for certain that the explanations thus far in the git doc and on the chat have have many confused.
Z
06:59
Zack
if you try to lie with a market, people will show up and take the free money.
+
07:02
++
In reply to this message
You’ve said this before. And one would think it’s true but I’ve seen enough markets to know that it just isn’t true when the market mechanics have design challenges or if there are frictions that get in the way.
OK
07:03
O K
In reply to this message
I've always liked the idea of abundant case examples -- not necessarily by trial, but at least the theory, from easiest to hardest
Z
07:03
Zack
Even if the market was stuck in a lying state, the Oracle would still be honest.
The market is off-chain, it has no impact on the Oracle.
The market is off-chain, it has no impact on the Oracle.
+
07:04
++
There used to be a strong case to be made that there was a bad signal from the market given market was betting VEO > $300 but based on prices, and the payoff for “False” the opposite bet was the winning bet. Took a while to correct ....even when I pointed it out to everyone on this chat room.
OK
07:08
O K
Market is betting Veo < $300 right now
07:09
I hedged my bets, if veo goes to $300, it will be good for me
07:09
but if it doesn't, I may be hurting
+
07:12
++
Ok. Then this example is wasted.
We need a case where market bets True and bet expires, while event is False. People need to see exactly what happens next...
We need a case where market bets True and bet expires, while event is False. People need to see exactly what happens next...
OK
07:12
O K
You should bet true, I promise not to make any more bets
07:13
Or maybe something will happen and the price will boom when the market says false, and we can still find out
Z
07:18
Zack
It is hard to say "no" to free money, especially when you can claim it anonymously.
MF
07:19
Mr Flintstone
the amount of money left unmatched does not determine what the final output state of the oracle is
07:19
or, is not the final determinant
+
07:25
++
In reply to this message
No one would argue against that.
I think the challenge for Amoveo will be to build confidence that you will get paid when you deserve to get paid.
Put differently, if you bet it rains 8/17/18, and it in fact rains, then there needs to be certainty that “True: it rained on 8/17/18” gets paid.
The git doc explanation leaves lots of room for uncertainty. Perhaps a whole bunch of case studies or examples will provide the clarity not found in this chat or the document so far.
I think the challenge for Amoveo will be to build confidence that you will get paid when you deserve to get paid.
Put differently, if you bet it rains 8/17/18, and it in fact rains, then there needs to be certainty that “True: it rained on 8/17/18” gets paid.
The git doc explanation leaves lots of room for uncertainty. Perhaps a whole bunch of case studies or examples will provide the clarity not found in this chat or the document so far.
07:28
In reply to this message
There are frictions to forking.
If you have to rely on a fork for every bad oracle outcome, there will be problems.
If you have to rely on a fork for every bad oracle outcome, there will be problems.
MF
07:28
Mr Flintstone
the frictions are compensated well
07:28
in excess of their cost
07:28
by forking you can double your veo
07:28
depending on how much is unmatched (it would have to be a lot for there to be a fork in the first place)
+
07:28
++
In reply to this message
Depends how significant the staking is.
There are small bet markets too
There are small bet markets too
Z
07:29
Zack
How about we ask the oracle "hash(block 50000) mod 4 == 0"
That has a 25% chance of being true, and 75% chance of being false.
If we did it 4 times, then true would probably win once.
That has a 25% chance of being true, and 75% chance of being false.
If we did it 4 times, then true would probably win once.
07:29
so probably at least 1 of the 4 times, the minority side would win
+
07:30
++
In reply to this message
I like the outcome you are trying to engineer but I think you will be better served selecting events my grandmother can understand.
07:31
Pick the price of a stock like Apple at various times in the day.
07:31
Very simple
07:31
Random over short period.
07:31
Can provide lots of case studies.
MF
07:33
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
if a small unmatched oracle is going to finalize incorrectly, then it isn’t an economically significant outcome
07:35
any important oracle will have people paying attention
+
07:35
++
In reply to this message
Significance is a question of for whom.
If you want this to take off, you can’t throw the little guy under the bus and say he isn’t significant enough to warrant fixing glaring errors in the system.
If you want this to take off, you can’t throw the little guy under the bus and say he isn’t significant enough to warrant fixing glaring errors in the system.
07:36
In reply to this message
You won’t have important oracles if no one has confidence in “unimportant” oracles.
MF
07:36
Mr Flintstone
I didn’t say small bets were not important
+
07:37
++
In reply to this message
Not exactly. But did say this:
“if a small unmatched oracle is going to finalize incorrectly, then it isn’t an economically significant outcome”
“if a small unmatched oracle is going to finalize incorrectly, then it isn’t an economically significant outcome”
MF
07:37
Mr Flintstone
if nobody is betting where the payout is determined by the oracle, the oracle is not economically significant
07:38
if people are betting, there is economic significance regardless of the size
07:40
the winning side can either 1. pay attention to the output state of the oracle so they can bet profitably then flag to people with more money 2. Not pay attention and trust the profit motive that third parties will catch any falsely unmatched oracle output types
07:41
paying attention can largely be automated as well
07:42
In reply to this message
I am describing that it is unlikely for this to ever happen if people are betting on the outcome
07:43
Deleted Account
Veoscan fixed. There was a bug in block update code.
OK
07:48
Deleted Account
I thought
channels_veo was number of channels, but it's actually total amount of veo in channels and overflowed in a recent block.
Z
08:00
Deleted Account
column data type in veoscan's database was too small to store
channels_veo, now expanded
Z
08:02
Zack
what is channels_veo from? is it part of a block?
08:03
oh, it is part of a block
08:06
The total amount of veo in channels was not much until recently, so unnoticed.
Z
08:07
Zack
it is good people are finally starting to use channels.
08:07
Deleted Account
yes :)