Amoveo ♥🧿
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29 March 2019
MF
01:44
Mr Flintstone
I don’t know much about the uniswap market
01:44
but I can’t see how it would be secure without at least one oracle
Z
01:44
Zack
they are watching the price of on-chain markets in Ethereum
01:44
those markets are trading ERC for ERC
01:44
subcurrency for subcurrency
MF
01:44
Mr Flintstone
how do you divine an eth price out of that?
Z
01:44
Zack
so the market reveals the relative price of the subcurrencies
01:45
and they make derivatives between subcurrencies
01:45
eth is one of the currencies on ethereum, like the others
MF
01:45
Mr Flintstone
if you want to measure eth in terms of an external value metric tho
01:45
ppl care about their purchasing power in the real world
01:46
yeah, if you want a price oracle for the ratio of the things inside ethereum, that seems good to me
Z
01:47
Zack
it seems like if the bets on the result of the oracle are bigger than the market being used as the oracle, it could become profitable to manipulate the price of the market to get more money outside the market
MF
01:47
Mr Flintstone
the only useful and untrusted tokens on ethereum are probably eth itself and eth derivatives
01:48
In reply to this message
isn’t there a big reward to correct the price in the spot market if people are manipulating it?
Z
01:48
Zack
so are you calling my cryptokitty unuseful, or untrusted?
MF
01:48
Mr Flintstone
haha
01:48
hey I have some too
Z
01:49
Zack
In reply to this message
yeah, that makes sense. It can escalate to meet our needs, especially if people are expecting manipulations
MF
01:50
Mr Flintstone
if we can have a trust free market about things external to the chain, this is what can function as a useful fast oracle
01:50
and if we can be sure of what happened in the market
Z
01:51
Zack
In reply to this message
if everyone is running a full node, then maybe we don't need to fork?
MF
01:55
Mr Flintstone
someone still needs to actively soft fork tho right?
01:56
by choosing the true outcome ahead of finalization and refusing to accept tx against it
Z
01:56
Zack
each of them running software that looks up public api to know the result of every oracle.
to make it lie you need to hard fork something.
to make it lie you need to hard fork something.
MF
01:56
Mr Flintstone
interesting
01:56
seems like there is maintenance work for the API setup
01:56
and then we have API risk
01:56
lots of incentive to manipulate the api
Z
01:57
Zack
What if almost everyone goes offline? seems like whoever is left could write what they want.
MF
01:59
Mr Flintstone
if everyone is using the same API, it is like the problem with the continuous model of oracles we talked about earlier
D
05:43
Desab
Zack is savage on twitter lol
EA
05:43
Eric Arsenault
LOL - feeling the burn
05:50
In reply to this message
Had another thought last night: isn’t there a big risk of forking as well due to futarchy governance? If people vote a certain way, and a number of devs don’t want to go there...? I know Zack sees futarchy as some kind of religion, and will follow, but once dev community grows this could cause many forks too I think
Z
05:51
Zack
There is no voting in amoveo.
EA
05:51
Eric Arsenault
Sorry, don't mean vote..
05:51
bet*
Z
05:52
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/progress_reports/forking_concerns.md
You can read about when forking can and cannot happen here
You can read about when forking can and cannot happen here
05:52
If devs write code, and no one uses it. It does not matter.
EA
06:14
Eric Arsenault
I see, if only 1/ 5 types of teams isn't happy (devs), fork will flop
Z
06:15
Zack
If no one writes a piece of code, then it is impossible to run it, yes.
But if there is enough demand, you can use a DAC to get anything written.
But if there is enough demand, you can use a DAC to get anything written.
EA
06:24
Eric Arsenault
interesting article...
Z
06:32
Zack
In reply to this message
they claim to have "Exhausting other options beyond inflation-funding"
But they did not look at all other options.
They did not consider dominant assurance contracts.
If they are right, and inflation funding is the only way to fund open source development, then that would mean it is impossible to fund other public goods, like road maintenance, or having new novels written, or paying people to make videos.
I think we should not give up on the hope of efficiently funding general public goods. Limiting ourselves to only funding blockchain goals is very limiting.
But they did not look at all other options.
They did not consider dominant assurance contracts.
If they are right, and inflation funding is the only way to fund open source development, then that would mean it is impossible to fund other public goods, like road maintenance, or having new novels written, or paying people to make videos.
I think we should not give up on the hope of efficiently funding general public goods. Limiting ourselves to only funding blockchain goals is very limiting.
EA
06:35
Eric Arsenault
I agree. I think he might have included DACs under crowdfunding
Z
06:36
Zack
I doubt whoever wrote this has ever heard of DAC.
EA
06:38
Eric Arsenault
He’s talked about it on Twitter (in fact, I think you mentioned my DAC to him)
06:39
Actually you are right
06:39
06:39
He published before this
06:42
DACs to the rescue 🚀
[
07:28
[Riki]
do u even dac, bro?
$
Z
09:06
Zack
we use nakamoto consensus.
09:06
https://veoscan.io/ here is a live list of nodes
Z
09:48
Zack
No one accepted my offer to sell stablecoins. it expired after 100 blocks.
Nate invited Nate
Z
09:58
That is an offer. I am selling $450 of stablecoins for 5 VEO.
http://139.59.144.76:8080/otc_listener.html <-- that is the page you use to accept the offer.
http://139.59.144.76:8080/otc_listener.html <-- that is the page you use to accept the offer.
10:00
only valid for the next 100 blocks
10:01
83eSf115EdvdVUV0Kr1RJOb2w9TH7dZ5itb0hXZgreA=
Here is the Oracle ID so that you can trade stablecoin contracts too
Here is the Oracle ID so that you can trade stablecoin contracts too
SS
10:11
Spike Spiegel
There is too high alternative cost - starting from 2% to hold USD gov T-bill into 8% TrueUSD or other
10:12
Compound sits in the middle with 3.6% DAI yield.
In order to get people using DAI to VEO based stablecoin yields have to be higher
In order to get people using DAI to VEO based stablecoin yields have to be higher
10:13
Also there is risk of flash crash & price of veo going to zero in which case stablecoin is worth zero - so it's more risky than USD
EA
MF
10:17
Mr Flintstone
the last contract that actually happened was 5% paid to the stable side for 1 month of exposure I think
10:17
that is pretty nice compensation for the risk
10:18
both sides of the trade ended up making money
10:19
Also yields more than pretty much anything you’ll find that’s not a scam
EA
10:19
Eric Arsenault
That is pretty good actually
Z
11:10
Zack
I'm trying to lead by example. You guys can trade too
M⛏
Tina invited Tina
$
18:36
BTC:
Zack
Can I get more details about the main chain?
Such as Consensus,
node list, etc
Zack
Can I get more details about the main chain?
Such as Consensus,
node list, etc
Z
ŽM
23:22
beware
23:22
don't know if true but worth noticing
AK
23:32
A K
what a strange guy, every time I encounter smth from him I'm amazed
23:32
starting from the idea to reduce bitcoin block to 300kb
23:33
oh actually in 2013 he amended the Debian bitcoin-qt package to censor SatoshiDice
23:33
than the 300kb block
23:33
now he uses Patreon to collect donations, true cryptobeliever
23:33
and in that HitBTC thread he claims runnng a Monero wallet is too difficult for him
23:33
wtf
Z
23:35
Zack
This is a place to discuss Amoveo, not a Luke hate group
ŽM
23:35
Živojin Mirić
I just forwarded the tweet because veo is on hitbtc
AK
23:35
A K
can't say I hate him ) just some Friday rambling
23:35
sorry for offtopic
$
23:39
$FX
In reply to this message
I didn't realize that is your answer to me.
Top height nodes are the active ones?
Top height nodes are the active ones?
Z
23:46
Zack
im not sure what you are asking. what is an "active one"?
MF
23:55
Mr Flintstone
top height nodes are nodes that have all the blocks
30 March 2019
SS
MF
06:11
Mr Flintstone
the best and most popular way to hedge risk is with familiar derivative instruments that have been used for hundreds of years. reinventing the wheel to try to hedge risk a different way is gonna blow up more often than not as seen with basis
06:11
good thing they didn’t go live, they were gonna literally set 140mn on fire
EP
07:03
Zack Zack, are you willing to sign this nda to list on binance info page?
Z
07:03
Zack
no
EP
07:04
Evans Pan
ok. Will you allow anyone in the community to do so?
Z
07:07
Zack
Why would you need my permission to sign a document?
EP
07:07
Evans Pan
because only CEO, founder/cofounder of the project allowed to sign this doc.
Z
07:08
Zack
I do not give anyone permission to sign as me. you can only sign as yourself.
EP
07:08
Evans Pan
of course, I will sign my name.
T
07:08
Tromp
Evans pan “ceo of amoveo” 👍🏻
EP
07:08
Evans Pan
but I will put my title as CEO or cofounder,are you ok?
Z
07:09
Zack
you are not CEO or cofounder.
T
07:09
Tromp
Is there no option for decentralized projects?
EP
07:09
Evans Pan
so who can represent Amoveo in your mind?
07:10
I am trying to find a person you are happy with, and let him to sign this doc if he is willing to.
Z
07:10
Zack
I do not give anyone permission to sign a document on my behalf.
07:11
you can only sign for yourself, not for anyone else.
T
07:11
Tromp
You can tell them anything you want, in the end the idea of the project is to be decentralized
EP
07:11
Evans Pan
I did not say sign on your behalf.
MF
07:11
Mr Flintstone
You can be chief binance applicant of amoveo
07:11
lol
T
07:11
Tromp
You can tell them you are co founder even if you are not and no one in the community can do anything about it i guess
Z
07:12
Zack
if we make a futarchy market that says Evan Pan is chief binance applicant, that would be as official as it can get, right?
EP
07:12
Evans Pan
there is no chief binance applicant position.
T
07:13
Tromp
I can name myself ceo of bitcoin, it wouldnt matter in reality but if it makes binance happy then whatever 😂
EP
07:13
Evans Pan
I dont mind making a futarchy to make myself PR of Amoveo
[
07:13
[Riki]
sign as Zack Hes, with one "s", so u trick em
T
07:13
Tromp
HAHAHAHA
Z
07:13
Zack
hahaha
MF
Z
07:14
Zack
so I guess someone already signed up as cofounder then?
07:14
https://info.binance.com/en/currencies/amoveo is this it?
EP
07:15
Evans Pan
o yes
MF
07:15
Mr Flintstone
Idk, I doubt u need an NDA to be on that site
EP
07:15
Evans Pan
who did it?
Z
07:15
Zack
I don't know who
EP
07:16
Evans Pan
dont bother
Z
07:16
Zack
binance solved our max supply limit: 999,999,999,999,999
07:16
good to know
SS
07:17
Spike Spiegel
Can Amoveo holders agree on fixed max supply limit and then change it?
Can god create rock so heavy that you cannot lift it?
Can god create rock so heavy that you cannot lift it?
T
07:17
Tromp
You can sign as whatever you want my friend, nobody can stop you i guess and we would benefit from binance liquidity, dont think the community would care. Just dont sign as zack because that would be fraud i guess
Z
07:17
Zack
The governance has some variables we can update. you can't prevent people in the future from updating them again.
EP
SS
07:22
Spike Spiegel
The question is about what's the limit of futarchy - if one create futarchy market for making somebody's coins unspendable it's ok or not? Stuff like this
07:23
https://uncommoncore.co/unpacking-bitcoins-social-contract/ -- explained here
The social construct isn't 100% embedded in the code and cannot be
The social construct isn't 100% embedded in the code and cannot be
Z
07:23
Zack
If futarchy says it is good for Amoveo, then that means it is good. Lowly mortal brains like ours can't comprehend.
Futarchy has the bigger perspective.
Futarchy has the bigger perspective.
SS
07:24
Spike Spiegel
So it's like a borg? It doesn't care about people but his own good and growth assimilating every technology and resource available
EP
SS
07:26
Spike Spiegel
// just trying to invent VEO memes for spreading
I think many people don't like political correctness and they would love to see some thing focused on efficiency and not meat values.
If you say that veo is cryptocurrency people may not get excited but if you tell them that it's first implementation of "paperclip optimiser" then hell yeah
I think many people don't like political correctness and they would love to see some thing focused on efficiency and not meat values.
If you say that veo is cryptocurrency people may not get excited but if you tell them that it's first implementation of "paperclip optimiser" then hell yeah
Z
07:28
Zack
The basic rule of life is that the things that grow fastest become more common.
In order to win, Amoveo has to focus on growth most of all.
Futarchy is a higher intelligence. it is a kind of networked intelligence.
In order to win, Amoveo has to focus on growth most of all.
Futarchy is a higher intelligence. it is a kind of networked intelligence.
EP
07:28
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
Seriously, as we discussed last time, we really need a Amoveo Foundation to coordidate the community and other non-tech things. Even the foundation doesnt have any funds, just use DAC.
T
07:28
Titan
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
👋, 23.6 KB
SS
07:28
Spike Spiegel
Futarchy is a higher intelligence. it is a kind of networked intelligence. -- this will sell better then "derivatives / hedging" because it resonates with LSD / weed driven cryptohippies
Z
07:30
Zack
https://twitter.com/zack_bitcoin/status/1109769741424578560
I talked a little about that here
I talked a little about that here
07:31
follow the comments
EA
08:30
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Been thinking of this as well. How do you imagine this working?
EP
09:20
Evans Pan
Maybe make a DAC for every three month, the foundation need specify the scope of work, and set some goals and targets.
09:29
if we can trial run a few DAC based "foundation" for one or two times, we can then make a long term DAC to manage and create these quartly DACs.
Z
09:30
Zack
I think you should study Dominant assurance contracts more Evans
09:30
SS
EP
09:35
so you dont think DAC based foundation doesnt work? just explain it.
SS
09:35
Spike Spiegel
The point of DAC is to remove need for a foundation
EP
09:36
Evans Pan
It doesnt matter what do you call it.
09:37
in the world of Amoveo, futarchy, DAC, I think we have to link these things to common words which people can understand first.
09:40
DAC based foundation is completely different from a normal foundation.
Z
09:41
Zack
page 14. efficiently funding public goods. in the pdf.
EP
09:44
Evans Pan
if you dont like the wording, Foundation, just remove it. DAC baed community team, DAC team whatever you call it.
Z
09:45
Zack
Im just saying, you should read about it. it is a great thing to learn about.
EA
09:51
Eric Arsenault
One idea I’ve been thinking about is pooling resources to fund DACs, but you don’t need Foundation for that
EP
09:53
Evans Pan
good, but do you know what will be the problem?
EA
09:53
Eric Arsenault
In terms of a more structured team: it could help at achieving objectives but efforts would likely be funded via DACs
EP
09:53
This is the problem.
EA
09:53
What do you mean
EP
09:54
Evans Pan
how many DACs we have so far?
EA
09:54
Eric Arsenault
1 as far as I know
EP
09:54
Evans Pan
yes
09:54
exactly
09:54
only 1
EA
09:54
Eric Arsenault
Yeah: hence the reason why I’m thinking about how we can experiment
EP
09:55
Evans Pan
this is the problem, people dont have the incentive or habit or knowledge to create a DAC.
EA
09:55
Eric Arsenault
Exactly
EP
09:55
Evans Pan
thats why I said, we need a DAC to manage/create DACs
EA
09:56
Eric Arsenault
Maybe at some point
EP
09:56
Evans Pan
so once we have a master DAC, this DAC will keep creating more DAC for the community.
EA
09:56
Eric Arsenault
First step is better UX and education so we can actually have larger community participation
EP
09:58
Evans Pan
In my opinion, the core of Amoveo will always be understood by a small group of people. Vast majority dont need or wont need understand what Amoveo really is.
09:58
we use internet, the brower, but 99% dont know what is TPC/IP
EA
10:00
In reply to this message
This is something I’ve been thinking a lot about, but I don’t think what you are suggesting is a solution.
EP
10:01
Evans Pan
Its not a final solution, its something to push things forward.
Z
10:04
Zack
It is starting to seem more like spam than anything.
This is a good place for you to to ask questions and learn.
This is a good place for you to to ask questions and learn.
EP
10:05
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
I dont understand. I read page 14, I think I fully understand what DAC is.
10:06
why do you think I am totally wrong?
10:06
this is really confusing me.
Z
10:07
Zack
With a DAC, each person is always in full control over making decisions of how their own money is spent. You never give it to some foundation or middle man to control it.
EP
10:08
Evans Pan
yes, I agree. I do think so.
10:08
My suggestion didnt say give money to anyone else otherthan the person who created the DAC.
10:09
who ever created the DAC, he is the foundation.
Z
10:10
Zack
with a DAC, the person who is creating the public good does not get paid until the public good has already been delivered.
EP
10:10
Evans Pan
yes, you are right. Thats what I understood.
10:12
if a DAC is three month, he worked on the target for three month, and then he deliver the result. He get the money. During the three month, the guy or a group of guy who took the DAC is our foundation.
EA
10:12
Eric Arsenault
Why have a foundation
EP
10:13
Evans Pan
I said you can call it anything
10:13
I just try to use a word, all of us understand.
EA
10:13
Eric Arsenault
What does this solve
10:13
Clearly you think there is a problem
10:14
How does this solve that
EP
10:15
Evans Pan
DAC for DACs
10:15
do you understand this?
EA
10:15
Eric Arsenault
Explain how it solves the problem
EP
10:19
Evans Pan
a master DAC, their job is purly to facilitate more DACs. They need educate potential providers and investors how to use and understand DACs. And they help providers to creat DACs and these DACs are completely independent from the Master DAC.
EA
10:20
Eric Arsenault
I don’t think you understand.
EP
10:21
Evans Pan
tell me where is wrong
10:22
I created a DAC: I will facilite other providers to create 10 DACs for Amoveo in the next month.
10:22
one month gone, I helped 10 people created 10 DACs. I got my DAC fund. Amoveo has 10 more DACs running.
10:22
where is wrong?
Z
10:23
Zack
you could use a DAC to pay to have educational material made to teach people how to make more DAC
EA
10:24
Eric Arsenault
Go ahead: create a DAC betting to create 10 DACs. Why would people enter that bet?
10:25
You could then create 10 really bad DACs.
EP
10:25
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
Thats another thing. how to measure the result. This can be refined. not just by the number.
EA
10:27
Eric Arsenault
You don’t need a DAC to fund DACs. You just need DACs.
MF
10:28
Mr Flintstone
DAC^2
EA
10:28
Eric Arsenault
DAC^100
EP
10:28
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
this is a more tactical strategy. What I proposed is a long term strategy to promote the use of DAC. this educational DAC can be one of my 10 targeted DACs.
10:29
In reply to this message
I see. you didnt understand me. I dont use my DAC to fund any other DACs.
EA
10:29
Eric Arsenault
What is the purpose of the first DAC
EP
10:32
Evans Pan
to promote the use of DAC
EA
10:32
Eric Arsenault
Then you only need 1 DAC for that
EP
10:33
Evans Pan
you think some educational stuff to tell people how to use DAC, thats IT？
10:33
no more else?
10:33
I think promoting DAC can take 1 year or 2 years or much much longer time.
10:34
with lots of initiatives and involving lots of people.
EA
10:34
Eric Arsenault
Either way, you only need the single DAC to do that. Every initiative if you want can be separate DAC
EP
10:35
Evans Pan
back to the original problem I said. No one comes up these initiatives with a DAC.
EA
10:36
Eric Arsenault
Then do it.
10:37
Anyone is free to do it
10:38
I have a some ideas for next DACs but want to deliver this first one first
EP
10:41
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
my English is not good. So there are lots of things I dont really know how to express it accurately. I found a better word why I think DAC for DACs is better way. Systematically promoting DACs. We make it as a system. not rely on individual initiatives.
10:47
even if you create a DAC, you cant assume lots of people will see it. We need someone systematically to circulate new DACs to inform more people.
10:50
We have telegram, we have discord, reddit, a few QQ group, a few wechat group, lots of people dont check telegram here.
EA
10:50
Eric Arsenault
Maybe you can create a DAC to help sell Zacks stablecoins
EP
11:01
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
Please dont call a community member spamer if you just cant understand him. In this group, there are lots of people dont know what you are talking about in many occasions.
11:02
respect each other please
EA
11:24
Eric Arsenault
I agree Evans. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, let me know if you want to set up a DAC or talk about them.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
RL
17:53
Ricky Love
How to deposit in veo wallet from Hitbtc??
AK
18:08
Withdrawals offline still
Z
21:04
Zack
In reply to this message
it was unfair of me to say "spam".
Evan does a lot to help Amoveo, we should encourage him to have more ideas, we shouldn't silence him.
Evan does a lot to help Amoveo, we should encourage him to have more ideas, we shouldn't silence him.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Altcoin invited Altcoin
A
22:44
Altcoin
Is VEO being mined with CUCKAROO C29S?
Z
A
23:02
Altcoin
Will do, thank you!
31 March 2019
T
Z
06:18
Zack
https://twitter.com/virgilgr/status/1111536065607684096?s=19
Possibly the best introduction to blockchain engineering that I have seen.
Possibly the best introduction to blockchain engineering that I have seen.
JS
Will invited Will
PB
Leon invited Leon
1 April 2019
A
06:48
Interesting
Deleted invited Deleted Account
07:57
Deleted Account
Hello, is there a Spanish whitepaper?
Z
07:59
Puedo responder a su preguntas en castellano
08:00
there is a spanish telegram channel in discord too
Ja invited Ja
Z
08:03
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/tree/master/docs/es
Looks like part of the white paper is in spanish.
un parte del papel blanco es en castellano
Looks like part of the white paper is in spanish.
un parte del papel blanco es en castellano
Deleted invited Deleted Account
OrganiX invited OrganiX
Tim Jones invited Tim Jones
Z
11:38
Zack
I am thinking that Nakamoto consensus is only 2.1 level security, even if we had ASICS. because you can spend a bunch of money to manufacture more ASICS and take over.
With GPU, it is 4.1 level security, practically centralized.
With GPU, it is 4.1 level security, practically centralized.
O
13:54
OrganiX
In reply to this message
Great perspective, simplicity can go a long way. There could be thousands of DACs in which all are build upon the same template. For people like me that dont have much PL knowledge deployment of DACs will eventually be more streamlined / UserFriendly. Elastos IPFS hive can be a great decentralized storage solution.
14:01
Zack I am starting to understand your POV
Deleted invited Deleted Account
SP
20:35
Stepan Panov
does anybody know who is in charge of amoveobook?
21:48
Wonder if someone has already checked them out
SS
21:59
Spike Spiegel
I think their solution for SP500 won't work great as premiums may kill the returns
AK
22:02
A K
they require 8.5% margin for sp500
22:04
but it's not a "one size fits all" solution like in DAI, one can create a contract with any margin rules, apparently
SS
22:06
Spike Spiegel
The idea of having synth index of everything with a margin after you have reasonably priced trust-free oracle is "obvious"
AK
22:07
A K
yeah, the part about efficient trustless oracles is missing in this WP ;)
22:07
"to be published later"
22:25
Deleted Account
As I understand veo is Sha 256 so why it is not merged mined with btc or other sha256 coins ?
AK
22:25
A K
sha256 single
22:26
Bitcoin is SHA256 two rounds - existing Bitcoin ASICs are not compatible
22:26
Deleted Account
Hum I see tnx
22:26
So until Asics made or fpgas , GPU is the most efficient for now right ?
AK
22:27
A K
FPGA are most efficient right now
22:27
like Blackminer F1
22:27
some consider most of the hashrate to be FPGAs since November
AK
22:29
A K
no, thousands are working already
22:29
both hosted and shipped
22:29
check their Discord
22:29
or Veo Discord fpga channel
22:32
Deleted Account
With such small veo daily supply and 160$ per unit for 4 ghs it looks like they will never roi ..
AK
22:33
A K
faster than GPUs though )
S
22:58
Sy
F1 do more than 4gh...
PB
SP
23:28
Stepan Panov
In reply to this message
I've sent a message to johnny_cash on discord as someone pointed me in that correction. Anyone else you know I could talk to about amoveo book, that'd be very much appreciated.
Deleted joined group by link from Group
2 April 2019
JIHOON KIM invited JIHOON KIM
Deleted invited Deleted Account
02:25
Deleted Account
null
MF
02:26
Mr Flintstone
thanks
PB
03:28
Amoveo was referenced in the revised paper that Dan Robinson published on Rainbow which is a step in the right direction
Z
03:36
Zack
"Amoveo [14] is a blockchain that only supports a single token on-chain, butsupports payment channels in which parties can enter into synthetic positionsthat are settled with reference to on-chain prediction markets, as well as multi-hop trades across those channels. This is very similar to the price-oracle-basedconstruction of Rainbow channels described below"
Too bad he describes it all wrong.
Too bad he describes it all wrong.
03:36
there is no on-chain prediction market.
PB
03:38
Phil Bonello
yeah should be "reference to on-chain oracle" really
Z
03:40
Zack
"In perhaps the most straightforward construction of Rainbow channels, theparties mutually agree on some price oracle. At the time the channel is closed,the escrow contract consults that price oracle and computes the balance to whicheach party is entitled. Critically, there is no need for a universally agreed-uponprice feed—the parties in each channel can agree upon the price oracle to beused to settle that channel.The design of difficult-to-manipulate price oracles is an area of ongoing re-search, which is far too deep to explore in this paper. For ERC20 tokens, a pricefeed based on a decentralized exchange like Uniswap may be sufficient, if it issufficiently hardened to prevent manipulation. For assets like USD, the partiescould rely on price feeds from exchanges, or piggyback on other USD-peggedassets on the parent chain."
here is the part it references
here is the part it references
EP
Z
03:44
Zack
there is a lot of research in POS, I haven't kept up with it.
Stig invited Stig
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
12:18
Zack
N of m pos systems like cosmos are probably 4.1
Since the validators could just confiscate any funds.
Bitcoin hivemind/augur are using a pos consensus oracle, and their design seems to be 3.1 level security.
This suggests that it should be possible to achieve at least 3.1 with a pos blockchain.
Since the validators could just confiscate any funds.
Bitcoin hivemind/augur are using a pos consensus oracle, and their design seems to be 3.1 level security.
This suggests that it should be possible to achieve at least 3.1 with a pos blockchain.
12:31
In a previous version of the trust theory paper I said that 2.1 and 2.2 are vulnerable to credible commitments to attack, but now I see that this is not necessarily true.
If the mechanism is 2.2 or better, then that means the attacker is spending more money than even exists on the blockchain.
So it is possible for the current participants in the blockchain to earn the money that the attacker is losing.
This means it isn't in everyone's interest to abandon ship. Some people will stay in the blockchain and hope for the attack to happen, so they can profit.
If the mechanism is 2.2 or better, then that means the attacker is spending more money than even exists on the blockchain.
So it is possible for the current participants in the blockchain to earn the money that the attacker is losing.
This means it isn't in everyone's interest to abandon ship. Some people will stay in the blockchain and hope for the attack to happen, so they can profit.
Z
13:18
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/trust_theory.md
My new draft of the trust-theory documentation
My new draft of the trust-theory documentation
SP
20:21
Stepan Panov
A
Amoveo News 02.04.2019 20:20:56
Weekly Amoveo Newsletter #4: Blockfolio Signal, AmoveoBook, new blog, new survey, security, auditing and much more.
https://amoveo.substack.com/p/4-blockfolio-signal-and-amoveobook
https://amoveo.substack.com/p/4-blockfolio-signal-and-amoveobook
MF
20:24
Mr Flintstone
cool!
Z
20:24
Zack
In reply to this message
That hashrate graph looks like at least 3/7th of the hashrate is controlled by one person.
MF
20:24
Mr Flintstone
amoveobook looking sleek
SP
20:26
Stepan Panov
In reply to this message
I'm not gonna lie, I can't even read it properly, I just get it courtesy of Sy.
MF
20:27
Mr Flintstone
amoveo has an additional layer of inflation bug protection now
Z
20:28
Zack
It's kind of like in the USA, having to calculate your tax a second time with the alternative minimum taxation method.
MF
20:29
Mr Flintstone
if we had this when the governance oracle counterfeited veo awhile back, the block wouldn’t have been accepted. this helps protect any bidders in the market
Z
20:29
Zack
We have a second very different way to prevent counterfeiting. So if one of the 2 methods break, it will still be impossible to counterfeit.
SP
20:34
Stepan Panov
Thanks! Also I've saved your recent messages, will include that info into the next one.
Z
20:36
Zack
The alternative way to prevent counterfeiting means we can make new tx types more quickly without stressing so hard about security. Even if there is a bug, the bug can't print Veo from nowhere, so it won't be a very dangerous bug.
M
21:30
Minieep21
I'm a bit stuck with amoveobook. I created a wallet with amoveo3wallet extension and have set a password to unlock it
21:30
Amoveobook still tells me its locked though
SP
21:31
Stepan Panov
In reply to this message
I've experienced the same thing a while ago and it still persists in Chrome. Firefox should work.
3 April 2019
EA
07:14
Eric Arsenault
I currently believe Amoveo needs more structure and a source of sustainable funding to accelerate development and ultimately win. Change my mind.
JS
Z
08:04
Zack
Can we find some company who can use Amoveo technology for their business?
I think a lot of open source projects use strategies like that.
I think a lot of open source projects use strategies like that.
08:06
I still think DAC has a lot of potential, and we should keep trying to get it to work.
EA
08:12
Eric Arsenault
I agree we should keep trying. I think my main concern is what I assume will be a low participation rate. I know this is voting % but these numbers are horrible: https://twitter.com/Obstropolos/status/1109452482873360386
08:12
Maybe participation in DAC will be higher
08:13
I agree in this strategy
08:14
Also: just because there is some other mechanism of sustainable funding, does not mean we can not have DACs running in parallel to fund things
Z
08:15
Zack
If we had some power users who were making good profit by trading many custom contracts, these people would benefit a lot from any improvements in their client's interfaces.
08:16
Yeah, ideally lots of different people would be building with Amoveo tech, and they all have different motives and goals and techniques for raising funds, and Amoveo can benefit from network effects and open source code.
08:21
Maybe the first power users will be people trading leveraged altcoin derivatives.
So they can short dogecoin on Amoveo.
So they can short dogecoin on Amoveo.
JS
EA
Z
08:25
Zack
I think bitmex might be most popular tool now
08:28
or maybe bitfinex
EA
08:30
Eric Arsenault
What would advantages be if they were to use Amoveo?
Z
08:30
Zack
no middle man taking fees. no risk that the central website will lock your account. protection against front running from the site operators.
EA
08:31
Eric Arsenault
Do you know if Gnosis allows you to short/long derivatives?
Z
08:31
Zack
the centralized website has legal risk too. A government could freeze their bank accounts and servers.
08:33
gnosis has a lot of products, they probably have some leveraged derivatives tools.
Amoveo does this off-chain in the lightning network, so you don't have to wait for confirmations or pay tx fees to miners or pay gas.
Amoveo does this off-chain in the lightning network, so you don't have to wait for confirmations or pay tx fees to miners or pay gas.
EA
08:36
Eric Arsenault
Would love to see a cost comparison
Z
08:38
Zack
with a centralized service like that, the trading fees act as a bribe to convince them not to steal your money.
If the tx fees are lower, then the odds that they will run off with the money are higher.
If the tx fees are lower, then the odds that they will run off with the money are higher.
08:39
that trade off between cost and security prevents centralized services from being able to even approach the affordability that is enabled by trust-free technology.
EA
08:39
Eric Arsenault
I agree: decentralized trading is better
08:40
I'm wondering about products like Gnosis vs. Amoveo. Are we taking 10% fees vs. 0.1% fees? Or 2% vs. 0.5%? Or ...
Z
08:41
Zack
gnosis built a lot of different things. If you point to any one, I can explain the benefits of using Amoveo instead.
08:42
I think we can use big O notation to compare the costs of using amoveo vs gnosis
08:43
The cost of trading on amoveo is O((number of channels) + (number of oracles))
EA
08:44
Eric Arsenault
Is that a zero or an O
Z
08:46
Zack
as far as I can tell, all the gnosis tools are O((number of trades) + (maximum value of money being bet in the oracle))
Because Gnosis oracles are using voting type mechanisms similar to Augur, so the cost of the oracle increases with the amount of money at stake
Because Gnosis oracles are using voting type mechanisms similar to Augur, so the cost of the oracle increases with the amount of money at stake
EA
08:48
Eric Arsenault
I'm actual not sure if you can trade derivatives on Gnosis... can't seem to find anything
Z
08:48
Zack
Comparing the cost of using them today, when Amoveo is lacking a lot of basic optimizations from Ethereum like serialization and pruning, and when both prediction market systems have almost no users. You just can't get an accurate comparison. Whatever costs you measure will change a lot if these derivatives platforms were to become very popular.
So it is better to use Big O notation, and look at the expected behavior in the limit
So it is better to use Big O notation, and look at the expected behavior in the limit
EA
Z
08:50
Zack
Lots of financial tools are equivalent. The words "financial derivatives" have a lot of legal consequences, so many people avoid them
08:50
Gnosis brands itself as being for "prediction markets"
EA
08:53
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Upon further though... I'm sure that Augur for example has spent a lot of money trying to get teams and projects to use their platform: ultimately, those efforts have not worked out
08:53
I do not think the reason is related to cost
Z
08:54
Zack
So if O((number of channels) + (number of oracles)) is < O((number of trades) + (total value being traded)), then that would mean Amoveo is going to be cheaper in the limit where both platforms are very popular.
My expectation is that the number of channels will always be <= to the number of trades, and that the number of oracles will grow more slowly than the total value being wagered in oracles. So that means Amoveo would be cheaper in the limit where both platforms are very large.
My expectation is that the number of channels will always be <= to the number of trades, and that the number of oracles will grow more slowly than the total value being wagered in oracles. So that means Amoveo would be cheaper in the limit where both platforms are very large.
08:55
Augur doesn't have the P2P derivatives tool we have.
EA
Z
08:57
Zack
on-chain markets where you have to pay gas, yes
J|
08:57
Jun Dam | 100x Trade | bitcashBank
Hey guys.. I'm organizing an event in SF called the Crypto World Expo on April 13 & 14: (https://cwexpo.co) would be cool to have up and coming projects like Amoveo represent at an expo table... if anyone local wants to demo something at our event just let me know and will reserve a complimentary table for you... just DM if you're interested. Not sure if you can make it out here Zack but would be great if you could..
Z
09:01
Zack
I am not going.
J|
EA
09:04
Eric Arsenault
Will you pay for my trip?
09:04
;)
09:05
I'd be happy to go if so
09:05
(talking to @merivercap , not you Zack
J|
09:11
Jun Dam | 100x Trade | bitcashBank
In reply to this message
Lol.. not sure if we have much of a budget .. but DM me.... would you be able to showcase something? What project are you working on?
EA
09:11
Eric Arsenault
I would help promote Amoveo
09:11
I'll DM you
Stanislav invited Stanislav
Deleted invited Deleted Account
13:57
Deleted Account
hi,admin
jz invited jz
SP
17:51
Stepan Panov
A
Amoveo News 03.04.2019 17:50:56
Amoveo gets Binance Info's V Label!
Amoveo has officially joined Binance Info’s transparency initiative. By sharing project-related information such as news and progress reports on Binance Info, Amoveo is contributing to keeping the community informed. Binance Info aims to provide users with the most trusted information on crypto projects - check out our page here: https://info.binance.com/en/currencies/amoveo
Binance Info is a cryptocurrency information platform, providing users with accurate and comprehensive crypto market data, news, and project rating reports. As an open information platform, Binance Info encourages all users to participate in maintaining accurate information on crypto projects by creating token profiles, editing missing or incorrect project information, contributing to news sources, and more. Users can help the community better understand coins and tokens.
Amoveo has officially joined Binance Info’s transparency initiative. By sharing project-related information such as news and progress reports on Binance Info, Amoveo is contributing to keeping the community informed. Binance Info aims to provide users with the most trusted information on crypto projects - check out our page here: https://info.binance.com/en/currencies/amoveo
Binance Info is a cryptocurrency information platform, providing users with accurate and comprehensive crypto market data, news, and project rating reports. As an open information platform, Binance Info encourages all users to participate in maintaining accurate information on crypto projects by creating token profiles, editing missing or incorrect project information, contributing to news sources, and more. Users can help the community better understand coins and tokens.
M
18:00
Minieep21
Interesting
18:00
Is it difficult to get certification?
SP
18:17
Stepan Panov
It wasn't me who did it, but I think it's very easy.
?
18:22
🤠Anton
In reply to this message
V label is a free-to-apply project, any coin can apply https://medium.com/binanceexchange/binance-infos-v-label-verification-f3506f64b292
18:26
We've just sent our application and a couple of months after they came back to us with additional questions. The process is very standard, we've just filled an online form and they granted the V label. Here I should mention that before V label we've applied for listing several times and Binance were already aware of the project and we had some communication history. Though they haven't granted the listing to us yet, it resulted in this nice label at least!
M
18:36
Minieep21
Cool, well done on putting it though to them
Deleted invited Deleted Account
4 April 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
09:48
Topab
Worth listening to realised UMA is not a serious competitor to Amoveo https://blockcrunch.libsyn.com/inside-umas-decentralized-derivatives-hart-lambur-uma-project
09:48
It is interesting when he says "Those who don't report the truth will be slashed" ... and who decides about the truth? Sounds like it is not going to work
Z
10:08
Zack
podcasts are such a terrible medium for learning about cryptoeconomic mechanisms.
10:09
imagine if someone read like a 2 path math proof, and you had to understand it without seeing any of the equations, or being able to jump back and forth to look at different parts.
T
10:11
Topab
I agree, but speaking/listening is also very powerful for a good summary and mostly for a non tech person like I am. True, to know the details nothing better than look at those in writing
Z
10:14
Zack
it is nice to hear someone new talk about the importance of synthetic derivatives. Hopefully the community is learning.
10:14
Maybe we can convince them to use Amoveo.
10:17
I heard one sentence about a "price feed", and nothing else about how they are getting data onto the blockchain. So I guess that they don't have a trustless oracle.
10:18
Amoveo can give each customer bespoke risk management.
10:32
It sounds like they are selling some stablecoin linked to the S and P 500 stock exchange.
We could trade that too.
We could trade that too.
10:35
their decentralized oracle "isn't quite ready", so they are using a centralized one "for now". hahaha
10:37
The idea that they have a new trust free oracle design, but don't have any code or plans available for us to see, this tells me that either they are incapable at making blockchain software, or that they are lying about having an oracle that is almost ready.
10:40
He thinks the most popular derivatives will be:
s+p 500, dow jones, gold, oil, levered, inverse, and leveraged forms.
So what do "inverse" derivatives look like?
s+p 500, dow jones, gold, oil, levered, inverse, and leveraged forms.
So what do "inverse" derivatives look like?
10:41
I guess that means if the price of USD goes up 1%, then the value of your contract measured in USD goes down 1%?
10:42
I wonder how we ask the oracle a question to make a derivative that works like that?
10:42
maybe it is better to do it at the chalang level, so that we can reuse the same oracle for both kinds of contracts.
MF
10:42
Mr Flintstone
if you want inverse exposure just short
Z
10:43
Zack
so long-veo is a fine inverse of USD stablecoins?
MF
10:43
Mr Flintstone
long veousd is yeah
Z
10:43
Zack
ok, cool. so we don't need anything new
10:45
28:10 he starts talking about their target user base
EA
10:52
Eric Arsenault
maybe we can create derivatives for chinese assets, or things that are hard to get exposure to
Z
10:52
Zack
Chinese markets are oversaturated. the chinese money is trapped, they all want to invest outside China.
10:53
There might be some assets in China that are illegal to own. If that is the case, then offering those contraband assets could be very lucrative.
10:54
like onions in the USA
10:54
Maybe it is illegal to short some of their big companies or something.
EA
10:56
Eric Arsenault
maybe
10:57
I was thinking chinese market exposure to usd investors
Z
10:57
Zack
oh, he is explaining it in the audio now.
tradeable votecoins. it sounds like an augur clone.
tradeable votecoins. it sounds like an augur clone.
10:58
Americans and Chinese want to invest in Vietnam or Africa. They don't want to invest in China.
Countries with financial barriers end up becoming bad investments, because there is so much money trapped inside. It makes everything overvalued.
Countries with financial barriers end up becoming bad investments, because there is so much money trapped inside. It makes everything overvalued.
EA
11:06
Eric Arsenault
right: hence the shorts
11:07
African markets would be good
Z
11:08
Zack
what exactly are you suggesting?
The Chinese person owns lots of a Chinese company, so he can short it on Amoveo to hedge his risk.
An American will trade with the Chinese, so the American must be buying a long contract in the Chinese company.
Am I understanding correctly?
The Chinese person owns lots of a Chinese company, so he can short it on Amoveo to hedge his risk.
An American will trade with the Chinese, so the American must be buying a long contract in the Chinese company.
Am I understanding correctly?
11:09
I think interest rates are very high in a lot of African countries lately
11:09
Americans have trouble investing overseas.
The laws are biased against it in many ways, especially taxes.
The laws are biased against it in many ways, especially taxes.
EA
11:10
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
yes... maybe there is no demand here for that, I don't know
Z
11:11
Zack
I think overseas investing is even harder for Chinese than for Americans.
EA
11:12
Eric Arsenault
there are huge barriers both ways - anyone in this channel know from experience?
Z
11:12
Zack
maybe we need a UX all in chinese, and the assets it sells are all African stock exchanges
EA
11:12
Eric Arsenault
what about oracle language question issue
Z
11:13
Zack
I guess I was just confused before. our current oracles already cover the case we are interested in.
EA
11:14
Eric Arsenault
that's good to know.
Z
11:18
Zack
Emerging markets have less access to capital to buy equipment, so there is more demand for capital, so they are willing to pay a higher interest rate to investors.
People in these places have a lot less demand for risk. So they have more to gain by finding and using tools to sell their risk.
People in these places have a lot less demand for risk. So they have more to gain by finding and using tools to sell their risk.
11:23
Ive been thinking of traveling to an emerging market, buying a big certificate of deposit in a bank, and then selling it all as stablecoins on Amoveo. I could charge 2% for my effort of traveling.
This would help bring more money to emerging markets to put food into hungry mouths. It would help people trapped in oppressive regimes make investments outside their country. It could be a popular application of Amoveo.
This would help bring more money to emerging markets to put food into hungry mouths. It would help people trapped in oppressive regimes make investments outside their country. It could be a popular application of Amoveo.
11:24
then I could be the power user.
11:27
It is 3x less efficient than normal investing.
1x for the money I would put in the bank.
1x for the money on my side of the channel.
1x for the money on the other side of the channel.
Maybe there is a better way to design something like this.
1x for the money I would put in the bank.
1x for the money on my side of the channel.
1x for the money on the other side of the channel.
Maybe there is a better way to design something like this.
EA
11:39
Eric Arsenault
BTC is popular in emerging markets for this reason
11:40
How would people convert back to fiat?
11:48
I don’t think this would be the best use of your time
MF
11:56
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
it can be more capital efficient if you use leverage in the channel
Z
12:01
Zack
In reply to this message
So I make a $300 investment, and sell $100 of 3x leveraged?
So then there are only $500 locked up for $300 of investment. 1.66x less efficient. That seems a lot better.
So then there are only $500 locked up for $300 of investment. 1.66x less efficient. That seems a lot better.
MF
12:05
Mr Flintstone
so you are trying to hedge your usd in the certificate of deposit back to veo?
Z
12:05
Zack
Now that I am not a us citizen, I have a lot more freedom to do stuff like this.
If making a bunch of stablecoins is the way to grow amoveo, it seems like I should do that
If making a bunch of stablecoins is the way to grow amoveo, it seems like I should do that
12:06
In reply to this message
I want to just have Veo risk, and profit by facilitating others to invest in the emerging market
MF
12:07
Mr Flintstone
ok, so you would kind of make the spread b/w what you are paying the stable side and the cd rate
12:07
though you alone are exposed to default risk
12:08
also, you need to hedge the cd rate cash flows back to veo as well. That risk is usd denominated
Z
12:08
Zack
Yeah, but maybe I could invest in a couple different things and charge a fee to cancel most of that risk out
12:09
I would sell a little Veo to buy the cd, then get that Veo risk back by selling the derivative. So I should be neutral, right?
MF
12:10
Mr Flintstone
imagine you get paid back the CD and interest in 12 separate 1 month payments
12:11
how would you hedge that with one trade?
Z
12:11
Zack
That doesn't mesh well with how oracles work. I was thinking either 3 month, 6 month, or 12 month contracts.
12:11
Maybe I am naming the contract wrong, or imagining a kind of investment that doesn't exist
12:12
Well, we could just ask the Oracle about the sum of the 12 payments
MF
12:12
Mr Flintstone
it is probably simple, and you get paid 110 dollars at the end for investing 100 dollars up front
12:12
for example
12:12
In reply to this message
then you expose the other side to the default risk which might be nice
12:13
Oh, never mind I see what you’re saying
Z
12:19
Zack
Maybe amoveo can be a tool for nomad capitalists, who travel the world finding exclusive investment opportunities and flipping them on the blockchain
12:21
Could I buy an apartment in an emerging market, and then sell all the risk that it will gain or lose value. Then I could live somewhere for free?
Or maybe even be paid to live there
Or maybe even be paid to live there
12:26
The fact that people buy houses and leave them empty as an investment makes me think this must be possible. Like in Vancouver
12:27
A great opportunity for any of us in British Columbia
12:27
You can get paid to live in a house
12:31
I think this won't work for housing because reselling is so expensive, so you need long term contracts. But no one wants to take this long term, because if the price of Veo decreased by more than 33%, it would hit the margin. The risk is too big for very long term contracts
12:32
Maybe if the price of Veo is more stable someday
MF
12:32
Mr Flintstone
you can resell other shorter term risk
Z
12:32
Zack
Yes. I could own a stock or something for a much shorter period
MF
12:33
Mr Flintstone
you would be a bespoke risk merchant lol
Z
12:33
Zack
Haha
MF
12:33
Mr Flintstone
kind of like how banks work now, they will resell risk if they have access to certain markets that others don’t
12:34
like Egypt etc
Z
12:34
Zack
Yes. There is a lot of legal obstacles to international investments. So whoever does have access can often get a good deal
12:34
Banks are in a great position to profit
MF
12:35
Mr Flintstone
maybe this can enable local people to profit by selling the risk in their country to others
Z
12:36
Zack
Yes, but the reason it is an emerging market is because there is less capital available locally.
I guess these kinds of opportunities can counteract the brain drain, and prevent money from leaving
I guess these kinds of opportunities can counteract the brain drain, and prevent money from leaving
12:37
More secure investment opportunities would incentivize locals to save more.
12:50
If I kept traveling around and finding good investments, I wonder how big we could grow Amoveo if I was one party of every single channel.
12:54
If you are in a city where bitcoin isn't popular, and if you take your time and wait for the right opportunity, I think that you can earn 5% or more every time you switch between btc and fiat.
By having cryptocurrency investments available in multiple cities where bitcoin isn't popular, it creates the opportunity to do arbitrage profits between cryptocurrency and fiat.
By having cryptocurrency investments available in multiple cities where bitcoin isn't popular, it creates the opportunity to do arbitrage profits between cryptocurrency and fiat.
T
13:17
Topab
You can prove you own btc but, what about a house or a stock?
Z
13:18
Zack
Why would it matter if I actually own the stock?
13:19
Maybe I want to short for another reason
Z
14:56
Zack
bobby is one of the most common names, lots of people say "crypto".
14:58
Deleted Account
right I know, this particular bobby is claiming to be a popular youtuber. if authentic I'd say more attention for VEO is on the way
Z
14:59
Zack
probably fake
14:59
Deleted Account
yeah i assume so
15:00
I want to put my veo in cold storage, is there another option other than putting a light node or wallet on a laptop and then keeping it off internet?
Z
15:08
Zack
I recommend using the light node for cold storage.
Z
15:46
Zack
I updated the p2p derivatives tool, so now when you are closing the channel it tells you how much money will go to each of you.
15:49
I also fixed a bug where it was failing to auto-fill some data in otc_derivatives about the range of data that can be measured.
Z
16:16
Zack
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-04-02/crypto-lenders-push-no-tax-perk-of-leveraging-bitcoin-for-cash?__twitter_impression=true
They talk about "crypto lending", but some of it seems to be about derivatives, and how they can be preferable from a tax perspective than selling in some cases, or they can be used to let you capture a capital loss without reducing your cryptocurrency exposure.
So it is a multi purpose tax planning tool.
They talk about "crypto lending", but some of it seems to be about derivatives, and how they can be preferable from a tax perspective than selling in some cases, or they can be used to let you capture a capital loss without reducing your cryptocurrency exposure.
So it is a multi purpose tax planning tool.
SP
T
17:57
Topab
In reply to this message
I see. I thought about trading it. You meant the derivative of it... What a silly question mine
SP
22:25
Stepan Panov
This is a very interesting read, almost feels like a manifesto to me. Thanks Zack once again for taking the time to answer those questions, I've learned a lot!
SP
22:25
Stepan Panov
A
Amoveo News 04.04.2019 22:23:52
New blog post!
We're rolling out our new series #3Questions, where we will be asking experts of their respective fields 3 quick-fire questions, starting with Prediction Markets. This inaugural post features Amoveo's creator Zack Hess and his take on the future of prediction markets, their use-cases and challenges to be solved.
Read it here: https://medium.com/amoveo/3questions-the-future-of-prediction-markets-with-zack-hess-of-amoveo-b2c9b747ae8e
We're rolling out our new series #3Questions, where we will be asking experts of their respective fields 3 quick-fire questions, starting with Prediction Markets. This inaugural post features Amoveo's creator Zack Hess and his take on the future of prediction markets, their use-cases and challenges to be solved.
Read it here: https://medium.com/amoveo/3questions-the-future-of-prediction-markets-with-zack-hess-of-amoveo-b2c9b747ae8e
Deleted invited Deleted Account
22:34
Deleted Account
Hello, is there a German whitepaper?
Z
N
23:08
NM$L
when binance? Zack.
SS
23:28
Spike Spiegel
Don't ask wen binance - create DAC to fund binance listing instead ;)
SP
23:34
Stepan Panov
In reply to this message
There's actually no need to fund it, they're not charging for listings at the moment
23:35
As far as I know
23:36
Deleted Account
with dac they can charge without admitting it
23:39
really great answers for 3 question from zack
EA
5 April 2019
G
00:26
market is heating up
MF
00:35
Mr Flintstone
bitcoin based has me skeptical of course
00:35
maybe people won’t learn until enough money is at stake and they get burned
Z
01:44
Zack
I think people don't learn. Their culture does.
We tend to copy those around us who are more successful.
We tend to copy those around us who are more successful.
01:45
Humans aren't that smart individually, but we have networked intelligence. Like ants.
ES
Marko invited Domen Leš
EA
03:50
Eric Arsenault
Results from last week's survey are in. Thanks for everyone who participated!
03:50
03:52
If you have a minute, I've got another one. This one is hopefully to gain insights on how our community *might* use derivatives once UX is awesome...
T
Z
08:06
Zack
Maybe we should use scientific notation for encoding values into oracles.
That way we can have more detailed measurements at the lower end of the scale, and more coverage at the high end.
That way we can have more detailed measurements at the lower end of the scale, and more coverage at the high end.
EA
08:44
Eric Arsenault
Would this affect anything on the UX side?
Z
08:45
Zack
probably not
MF
08:49
Mr Flintstone
we would just be able to have the same significance wherever the scalar value ended up? Is that the advantage
08:50
like number of significant digits
Z
08:51
Zack
right now the first few values we measure are 1, 2, 3
so the difference between each value is 100%, 50%, 33%...
and at the high end 1020, 1021, 1022, the difference between these values is less than 0.1%
It would be better if the difference between two values was like 0.5% for the entire range.
so the difference between each value is 100%, 50%, 33%...
and at the high end 1020, 1021, 1022, the difference between these values is less than 0.1%
It would be better if the difference between two values was like 0.5% for the entire range.
08:52
something like like: 1, 1.05, 1.10, 1.15 .... 924, 973, 1023
SS
10:56
Spike Spiegel
10:57
In the case of governance and content curation (both of which are really just special cases of the general problem of identifying public goods and public bads) a major class of mechanism that works well is futarchy - typically portrayed as “governance by prediction market”, though I would also argue that the use of security deposits is fundamentally in the same class of technique. The way futarchy mechanisms, in their most general form, work is that they make “voting” not just an expression of opinion, but also a prediction, with a reward for making predictions that are true and a penalty for making predictions that are false
EA
11:30
Eric Arsenault
This is great. Ethereum is waking up.
11:32
Also a lot of talk within the DAO space (Aragon specifically) about using Futarchy... nothing implemented yet
Krakenified invited Krakenified
Z
12:27
Zack
It is good vitalik is explaining this things.
I like his idea about the futarchy type moderation.
I think if we had probabilistic payments, we could make a really nice version of this.
It would be an excellent solution to spam.
Everyone can earn profit by moderating well, or lose money by moderating poorly.
I like his idea about the futarchy type moderation.
I think if we had probabilistic payments, we could make a really nice version of this.
It would be an excellent solution to spam.
Everyone can earn profit by moderating well, or lose money by moderating poorly.
12:29
Or maybe lightning payments are the better solution.
It would be cool if the moderator of a page was independent of the server hosting it.
It would be cool if the moderator of a page was independent of the server hosting it.
EA
EA
14:10
Eric Arsenault
Does Amoveo have this sort of risk?
14:11
(Actually, not really sure if it is a risk?)
Instinct invited Instinct
I
SP
Peach invited Peach
P
17:25
Peach
Hi everyone
umburloko kendai invited umburloko kendai
Deleted invited Deleted Account
18:14
Deleted Account
Hello
T
19:40
Tromp
Wazop
MF
20:10
Mr Flintstone
Currently in augur I think it costs 500 usd to open an oracle
20:11
well it’s locked up and given back to you actually
SP
MF
20:40
Mr Flintstone
I think it’s cause they adjusted the no show bond based on no show frequency
20:40
and lots of ppl made oracles early on and just never showed up
20:41
I’d imagine it goes down at some point
20:47
no show = the person who made the oracle doesn’t report on it first
a
Z
21:50
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo
I recomend this one
I recomend this one
SS
22:05
discussion on futarchy on hn
SP
22:24
Stepan Panov
In reply to this message
I wish I could chime in with something of substance.
We need to consider telling people about Amoveo on Hacker News. I was researching Grin a few months back, and I saw that after they made an anouncement post on HN, 15% of their website's 230k+ monthly visits came from there. Still, I don't know much about HN, so I'm not sure if Amoveo is something people there want to learn about.
We need to consider telling people about Amoveo on Hacker News. I was researching Grin a few months back, and I saw that after they made an anouncement post on HN, 15% of their website's 230k+ monthly visits came from there. Still, I don't know much about HN, so I'm not sure if Amoveo is something people there want to learn about.
MF
22:32
Mr Flintstone
Isn’t HN generally skeptical of coins?
SP
22:34
Stepan Panov
I don't really know, I got the stats from similarweb like two months ago, so I guess HN was at least curious
MF
22:36
Mr Flintstone
this site is interesting
22:36
AK
22:37
A K
1broker fate comes in 1...2... )
MF
22:37
Mr Flintstone
ignoring the oracle issue, they seem to have put a lot of work into making the cryptocurrency -> capital/fx markets UX easier, so I think it’s good to take inspiration in terms of user experience
Z
23:25
Zack
I commented on HN
AK
23:29
I think maybe that's even a more important application of your time than another new feature )
23:29
HN could be surprisingly influencing
23:37
i'd run a DAC for ppl to share their views in this HN thread )
23:37
if only veo had a TG bot for DACs )
6 April 2019
Z
00:52
Zack
HN is blocking me from commenting any more. It says I comment too frequently.
AK
00:52
A K
aw snap
MF
00:54
Mr Flintstone
it may be time for zack_amoveo2 lol
EP
05:23
Evans Pan
if veo can offer long and short on ieo coins, it would be a great potential market.
Z
05:29
Zack
Sourcex and I finally finished our stablecoin contract. I will be 4.57 veo richer than I started.
BO
05:44
Benjamin Oberhof
In reply to this message
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05:46
That’s actually really nice! I ave been following Amoveo for a long time. Only manages to mine a couple but it strikes me as one of the if not the most promising take on the digital economy!
05:47
I some times mute the chat and end up not reading a lot but von time to time I will spend hours reading about Amoveo.
05:47
♥️
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
05:58
Zack
sourcex and I were able to close our derivative contract on the first try. It is getting better.
s
MF
06:20
Mr Flintstone
nice
MF
06:45
investors would have known about the vbk debacle before it happened
06:54
maybe
PB
07:08
Phil Bonello
Creating derivative markets for SAFTs that haven't launched would be great
PD
MF
07:26
Mr Flintstone
No it’s fair mined
PD
07:36
Pepe Doge
Thanks
EA
JS
EA
10:51
Eric Arsenault
Same thing for startups of any kind
10:52
Imagine getting access to Uber in the early phases
10:52
Usually only limited to VCs
10:53
But not sure who would be stupid enough to short...
Z
10:53
Zack
one of the insiders who has early access and wants to reduce their risk
EA
10:54
Eric Arsenault
Jesus that’s gold
10:54
There will be demand for this
Z
10:54
Zack
they can even do it anonymously, so the other insiders wont get mad
PB
10:55
Phil Bonello
In reply to this message
You don't need a price feed. That's what the oracle would describe
EA
10:55
Eric Arsenault
You still need public price information though
Z
10:56
Zack
it's true. you can only do this with numbers that are publicly known
EA
10:57
Eric Arsenault
Even insider information (say for example term sheets for a round) could be easily forged
PB
10:57
Phil Bonello
It would act as a futures market. At some point the price would be known
EA
10:57
Eric Arsenault
Oh I see
10:57
Yes that is true
PB
10:57
Phil Bonello
That can also reduce the volatility of something like an IEO
10:59
Instead of everyone rushing to buy something who's market price has yet to be determined, the market already has provided some information about the fair value
Z
11:00
Zack
As long as we know a point in the future where the value will be known, then we can make an oracle to bet on what the value will be.
EA
11:00
Eric Arsenault
Yup. In most cases, I think this would be true
PB
11:00
Phil Bonello
These types of markets would be great.
Z
11:00
Zack
very long term bets are difficult, because the volatility of veo risk dominates
EA
11:00
Eric Arsenault
Yes
11:01
We need to allow people to place these bets in usd
MF
11:01
Mr Flintstone
I think it’s more like veo failure risk
EA
11:01
Eric Arsenault
It’s pretty critical for mainstream I think
MF
11:01
Mr Flintstone
if there is demand for long veo in the long term, stability in usd can be provided
11:02
but you can’t bet on an asset that would out-appreciate veo as your expected return if you’re right
11:03
since there is only as much usd value as the sum of veo in the channel
PB
11:03
Phil Bonello
The bottleneck for this is UX. Synthetic stablecoin is number one. Secondary is having interesting markets hosted on simple and appealling UIs.
Z
11:04
Zack
if your side of the channel has 1/2 the money, then you can safely bet on something that doubles in value vs veo.
MF
11:04
Mr Flintstone
yeah
11:05
I wonder how you could best get exposure to something that could easily double in value vs veo
11:06
an ieo would conceivably do this
11:06
I think binary options are good for this
11:06
but it isn’t a linear payoff
Z
11:07
Zack
paying someone to lock up 5x as many veo only costs 5x as much.
If you think there is a chance of 5x increase, maybe it is worth it.
You don't have to lock almost any veo in your side of the channel.
If you think there is a chance of 5x increase, maybe it is worth it.
You don't have to lock almost any veo in your side of the channel.
MF
11:08
Mr Flintstone
yeah
11:08
Well, does it
11:08
I don’t think you pay only the interest * 5
11:08
Or *4
Z
11:09
Zack
why would you need to pay any more than that?
MF
11:10
Mr Flintstone
100 dollars on one side, 30 dollars on the other. Where the scalar lands is random. Who gets paid more on average
11:10
and the side with 100 dollars just pays farther down the range
Z
11:10
Zack
oh right, they need an expectation that they can win something. so you need to lock up more on your side.
MF
11:11
Mr Flintstone
well, they can accept the fee, but it needs to be interest + some kind of volatility calculation factor, almost like options pricing
11:14
it is not a nice calc, and involves heavy assumptions about veo forward volatility
11:17
bounded scalar markets inevitability have this kind of consideration
EA
11:28
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
What would be advantage of using Amoveo vs finding a private buyer? I guess Amoveo acts as a hub for people going long / short so easier to find buyer? Does anything exist like this for illiquid shares of startups?
EA
Z
11:55
Zack
I found a bug with the new_channel tx.
Currently we can only support creating channels where both parties have the same amount of veo.
Currently we can only support creating channels where both parties have the same amount of veo.
EA
11:56
Eric Arsenault
We are doomed
Z
11:57
Zack
if you made channels before the hard update that made p2p derivatives convenient, you are fine
11:58
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/txs/new_channel_tx2.erl#L67
I wrote
I wrote
bal2 instead of bal1
12:11
such a small typo, and now we need a hard update, and can't really use channels until the hard update activates.
OK
12:12
O K
I'm not a computer scientist, but could these variables be named more clearly to ease readability and reduce the likelihood of error?
Z
12:14
Zack
well, it says
So the syntax seems to make the error pretty visible.
I guess the problem is that I only tested making a channel where bal1 = bal2, so I didn't catch this.
Bal1 = bal2(x),.
Bal2 = bal2(x)
So the syntax seems to make the error pretty visible.
I guess the problem is that I only tested making a channel where bal1 = bal2, so I didn't catch this.
12:15
erlang has static definitions, so it never makes sense to give 2 names the same value.
12:16
the old version of making channels still exists and it works correctly.
12:17
I will set it up for a week from now.
12:19
you can see the definition of the struct nc_offer at the top of the file. in that context bal1 and bal2 are defined. And there aren't any other balances on this page to get them confused with.
So I think in this case having a short name like this is good.
So I think in this case having a short name like this is good.
12:25
This bug is kind of dangerous, because the 2nd person gets to choose how much money both of them are risking on the bet.
I recommend not using the p2p derivatives tool until the hard update gets merged.
I recommend not using the p2p derivatives tool until the hard update gets merged.
OK
12:28
O K
if the variables were like BalanceChannelOpener and BalanceChannelRecipient or something you don't think it would stand out a bit more when there is a typo? I think that's a more common way to name variables, but I have limited education on the topic
EA
12:29
Eric Arsenault
I feel like short variables reduce the amount of typing
12:29
at least I remember hearing that from devs
OK
12:29
O K
Modern coding environments have tab completion, I think readability is maybe more important
12:29
I've heard this criticism before
EA
12:30
Eric Arsenault
(also not a dev...so no idea)
Z
12:32
Zack
it depends on the situation.
More text on the screen literally makes it take longer to read.
long variable names is usually better than comments, if you can get away with it, but short variable names are better than long when you can get away with it.
You want to give the reader the minimum amount of information they need, fluff can distract.
More text on the screen literally makes it take longer to read.
long variable names is usually better than comments, if you can get away with it, but short variable names are better than long when you can get away with it.
You want to give the reader the minimum amount of information they need, fluff can distract.
OK
12:32
O K
Right, that makes sense
12:33
With numbered variables there is a certain amount of meatspace RAM required, so to speak
12:34
I've had this trouble with nested loops for instance myself
Z
12:34
Zack
Humans are much better at remembering location than we are at remembering names.
Something about remembering where the fruit bushes are in our evolutionary history.
So I am a fan of referencing things in terms of data structure locations rather than in precise vocabulary.
Something about remembering where the fruit bushes are in our evolutionary history.
So I am a fan of referencing things in terms of data structure locations rather than in precise vocabulary.
EA
12:41
Eric Arsenault
“Prediction markets are for helping communities of people make decisions that benefit the community.
Whether or not they cause wealth inequality is another question entirely. As long as they help communities come to good decisions, then futarchy is a success.
Peanut butter is for tasting good. Even if peanut butter was causing wealth inequality, it would still achieve its goal of tasting good.” (Zack’s answer to futarchy possibly causing wealth inequality in YC...love the analogy 😂😂😂)
Whether or not they cause wealth inequality is another question entirely. As long as they help communities come to good decisions, then futarchy is a success.
Peanut butter is for tasting good. Even if peanut butter was causing wealth inequality, it would still achieve its goal of tasting good.” (Zack’s answer to futarchy possibly causing wealth inequality in YC...love the analogy 😂😂😂)
Z
12:43
Zack
Drinking water doesn't prevent wealth inequality, so I guess I wont hydrate any more.
OK
12:45
O K
There is some evidence that wealth equality results in a lack of wealth. I am better off with a relatively small piece of a big peanut butter pie than an equal-to-others piece of a microscopic peanut butter pie.
Z
12:46
Zack
In reply to this message
good one. Paul Graham makes a similar analogy in this essay http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html
M
13:20
Minieep21
What will happen if a critical bug is discovered when use is high? Thousands of users have to wait 1 week to use the tools again?
Z
M
14:54
Mike
Any updates on ledger integration?
[
23:54
[Riki]
In reply to this message
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7 April 2019
[
Z
OK
03:29
O K
You were just warned.
Z
03:29
Zack
Banned
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EP
05:55
Evans Pan
for anyone deveolping the UX for veo, the ux platform can offer many hedging opportunities for crypto world. There are lots of people talking about staking is the future...but higher rewards come with high risk. if I can short Telzos, then I can get 8% interest without risk.
05:56
if I can short Huobi coin, I can stake in Huobi pool without
Huobi coin risk.
Huobi coin risk.
05:58
on the other hand, there are loads of people bullish on Telzos, both sides have supply and demand.
06:00
veo p2p tool can be widely used for hedging staking coin.
06:08
I believe staking will be a big sector of crypto, there might be 5-10 coins in the top 30 offering staking by 2020. Best thing is the potential users of staking hedging are easy to reach, we know where they are, what they want.
EA
06:39
Eric Arsenault
Great thought Evans!
06:39
I’m starting to compile use cases
06:39
This is a good one
Z
06:44
Zack
If there is an easy way to earn 5% rewards by holding a cryptocurrency, that probably has a significant influence on the interest rate.
It's kind of like how investing in developed Country to get 5% returns is just as good as getting 15% in a developing country and losing 10% because the currency loses value.
Why would someone want to hold synthetic tezos on amoveo, if they could get paid 8% to hold them on tezos?
So probably, to convince someone to hold tezos on amoveo, you will have to pay 8%, just like they could get on tezos
It's kind of like how investing in developed Country to get 5% returns is just as good as getting 15% in a developing country and losing 10% because the currency loses value.
Why would someone want to hold synthetic tezos on amoveo, if they could get paid 8% to hold them on tezos?
So probably, to convince someone to hold tezos on amoveo, you will have to pay 8%, just like they could get on tezos
EA
06:48
Eric Arsenault
That's a good point...
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Z
09:49
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/science_of_blockchain.md
I wrote about what science means for blockchain.
How to tell if a scientific experiment is valid in the context of blockchain mechanisms.
Useful for blockchain mechanism designers, and for people investing in new blockchain mechanisms to avoid fake-science.
I wrote about what science means for blockchain.
How to tell if a scientific experiment is valid in the context of blockchain mechanisms.
Useful for blockchain mechanism designers, and for people investing in new blockchain mechanisms to avoid fake-science.
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8 April 2019
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Z
01:45
Zack
This is a place to discuss amoveo.
⌚
01:48
⌚
Sure
01:49
Didnt quite get what happened tho
01:58
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Sure but good to signal scammers I guess for the community
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
02:23
Zack
First direct them to the trading channel, then call them out there. This is not a place for trading.
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M
02:43
Mike
Is Batman holding all coins still?
MF
02:59
Mr Flintstone
Yeah
K
03:07
K
Isn't there still a bottle neck for VEO which is the mainchain?
03:08
The second layer solution works similar to the Lightning Network where on-chain transactions are required for usage right?
03:08
Will Amoveo increase it's blocksize when demand rises?
Z
03:21
Zack
In reply to this message
Amoveo governance can change the block size.
Amoveo has all its smart contracts off chain inside the lightning channels.
Amoveo has all its smart contracts off chain inside the lightning channels.
PB
Z
JS
Z
07:38
Zack
I think I went too fast when I went running with him, and it upset him.
PB
07:39
Are you a fast runner or is he slow?
Z
07:40
Zack
I was in great shape at that time. He is a good runner too.
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Z
09:03
It's a light node. So you need to sync with the network
A
11:34
Aries
Thought I’d share
11:34
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Z
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T
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T
18:24
Tromp
Naval follows zack on twitter, he could know about amoveo
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T
20:40
Topab
Yeah
T
21:11
Tromp
The dream would be angel list leveraging amoveo to help allocate VC funds for projects
b
9 April 2019
SP
00:33
Stepan Panov
A
Amoveo News 09.04.2019 00:33:33
This week's newsletter is the longest one so far, the community has been very busy! We're talking new developments, blog posts, surveys, new miners, Blackminer discount for the Amoveo community and much more. Give it a read here:
https://amoveo.substack.com/p/5-binance-v-label-and-a-new-miner
https://amoveo.substack.com/p/5-binance-v-label-and-a-new-miner
EA
07:42
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
👏 great job Stepan and all those helping materialize this crazy vision
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09:41
Deleted Account
Hey why aren't the weekly newsletters posted on twitter?
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Z
11:00
Zack
I am thinking it was a mistake to make a different interface for paying 5% for stablecoins.
Instead what you should do, is record the starting price of veo as 5% higher than it currently is.
Instead what you should do, is record the starting price of veo as 5% higher than it currently is.
EA
11:02
Eric Arsenault
By different interface, do you mean the field on the derivative page?
Z
11:02
Zack
right
11:02
I am going to delete that field
EA
11:03
If they are paying you 5%, then starting price 5% lower?
Z
11:04
Zack
I am only giving you more opportunities on how to build the UX, I am not removing any options for how you can make it look.
Now it can be even simpler.
Now it can be even simpler.
EA
11:04
Eric Arsenault
Oh I see
11:04
More flexibility is good
Z
11:04
Zack
javascript is turing complete, so you can manipulate user input however make sense
EA
11:04
Eric Arsenault
👍
11:05
We need to make UX dummy proof
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Z
15:30
Zack
maybe probabilistic payments are not instantaneous.
If I have B money in my account, and I simultaneously make (10*B/Q) payments of Q amount of money each, on average 10*((B/Q)-1) of those payments would resolve in no money being transfered, and 10 payments would all try to accept all of your money.
So I could steal 10*(B-Q) money, unless everyone waits enough time for the 10 people who failed to receive payment publish.
So you have to wait a few blocks of confirmations, even with probabilistic payments.
If there are N different places that can sell things for probabilistic payments without waiting for confirmations, and each one ran checks to make sure they aren't receiving multiple probabilistic payments from the same account at the same time, and we restrict each probabilistic payment to be less than ~1/2N of the money in the account, then the attack won't be an issue.
When a probabilistic account is made, you could specify which shard you want to be able to make payments to.
If only 1/10th of services that sell stuff for probabilistic payments use accounts from this shard, then that means you could spend like 5/N of the money from the account at a time, instantaneously.
If I have B money in my account, and I simultaneously make (10*B/Q) payments of Q amount of money each, on average 10*((B/Q)-1) of those payments would resolve in no money being transfered, and 10 payments would all try to accept all of your money.
So I could steal 10*(B-Q) money, unless everyone waits enough time for the 10 people who failed to receive payment publish.
So you have to wait a few blocks of confirmations, even with probabilistic payments.
If there are N different places that can sell things for probabilistic payments without waiting for confirmations, and each one ran checks to make sure they aren't receiving multiple probabilistic payments from the same account at the same time, and we restrict each probabilistic payment to be less than ~1/2N of the money in the account, then the attack won't be an issue.
When a probabilistic account is made, you could specify which shard you want to be able to make payments to.
If only 1/10th of services that sell stuff for probabilistic payments use accounts from this shard, then that means you could spend like 5/N of the money from the account at a time, instantaneously.
15:31
Sharded probabilistic payment accounts are like a mix between channels and probabilistic payment accounts.
You partially specify who your partner is, but don't say everything about them.
You partially specify who your partner is, but don't say everything about them.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
SP
17:38
Stepan Panov
In reply to this message
I don't have access to any Amoveo-related Twitter accounts 🤷🏻♂️
17:44
https://www.augur.net/blog/augur-v2/
Interesting way to 'motivate' people to participate in the update: 'If you don't participate in a v2 Augur fork as a REP token holder, you lose all your REP.'
Interesting way to 'motivate' people to participate in the update: 'If you don't participate in a v2 Augur fork as a REP token holder, you lose all your REP.'
Z
20:38
Zack
In reply to this message
I don't like how it calls a ledger integration project "official", and I don't like the v-label Binance stuff.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
21:00
Mr Flintstone
should I re-name this chat to amoveo unofficial then lol
Zack changed group title to «Amoveo»
s
21:39
sanket
In reply to this message
Doesn't this mean that everyone will just keep it on an exchange and forget about it?
Z
21:48
Zack
In reply to this message
Almost every new feature they are adding to v2 is something amoveo already has.
21:49
Too bad augur can't fix their fundamental flaw.
Voting based oracles are so expensive. They need big trading fees.
Voting based oracles are so expensive. They need big trading fees.
AK
22:06
A K
Betting in DAI is huge
22:07
Betting in super volatile veo is impractical at the moment, unfortunately
22:07
At least for use cases where I tried to bring new ppl to actually use veo
Z
22:08
Zack
It is less efficient than betting in synthetic assets on Amoveo.
DAI is a one-size-fits-all solution, giving the same margins to everyone who holds it.
Amoveo synthetic asset stablecoins can be customized for every user.
some people need wide margins. like if it is a long-term contract.
Very short term contracts can have tighter margins to make them cheaper.
DAI is a one-size-fits-all solution, giving the same margins to everyone who holds it.
Amoveo synthetic asset stablecoins can be customized for every user.
some people need wide margins. like if it is a long-term contract.
Very short term contracts can have tighter margins to make them cheaper.
AK
22:08
A K
I know the theory, practice trumps it for now
22:08
I don't own any rep btw )
22:10
DAI has fungibility, it just might be so that suboptimal margins + fungibility beats optimal margins without fungibility
Z
22:10
Zack
Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.
It is nice to know that Amoveo is leading in prediction market research, and others are copying us.
It is nice to know that Amoveo is leading in prediction market research, and others are copying us.
AK
22:10
A K
True )
Z
22:11
Zack
In reply to this message
Amoveo stablecoins can be fungible.
As long as they reference the same oracle, and have the same margins, then they are fungible.
As long as they reference the same oracle, and have the same margins, then they are fungible.
AK
22:12
A K
Already in the current version of veo? Exchange of veoUSD is possible?
KL
22:13
Karlis L
the fact that you HAVE to use any margin at all makes VEO-based betting less appealing to people who want to bet in, say, USD with no VEO risk at all. to my understanding - guaranteeing zero VEO risk for a long-term bet is very expensive from the sellers side, you have to lock huge amount of veo
Z
22:13
Zack
you can make veoUSD stablecoins in Amoveo yes.
22:14
Karlis
DAI has margins too.
And they are one-size-fits-all margins, so you can't reduce them even when you don't need them to be so big.
DAI has margins too.
And they are one-size-fits-all margins, so you can't reduce them even when you don't need them to be so big.
22:15
Contracts can only have control of money locked inside of them. There is a limit to the amount of money that can be locked inside of a stablecoin contract. So all stablecoin contracts have margins.
10 April 2019
EA
00:17
Hi everyone, I was not able to make it to the conference this coming weekend to help spread the word on Amoveo. Please keep an eye out and share any conferences you think might be worthwhile. I’m based in North America...anything in this neck of the woods is fare game.
Z
01:01
Zack
There is a trend in communities called institutionalization.
Over time, they abandon their original goals and instead focus on whatever makes the project grow.
For me, the goal of having globally available prediction markets and derivatives is most important.
I only want to work on things that directly lead to this goal.
I'm not interested in growth for the sake of growth.
Over time, they abandon their original goals and instead focus on whatever makes the project grow.
For me, the goal of having globally available prediction markets and derivatives is most important.
I only want to work on things that directly lead to this goal.
I'm not interested in growth for the sake of growth.
1s1do1 invited 1s1do1
Z
06:32
Zack
When makerdao breaks, it will destroy even more value than Mt gox
Vitalik is even writing papers about how voting does not work. https://vitalik.ca/general/2019/04/03/collusion.html
But that doesn't stop people from dumping hundreds of millions into makerdao
Vitalik is even writing papers about how voting does not work. https://vitalik.ca/general/2019/04/03/collusion.html
But that doesn't stop people from dumping hundreds of millions into makerdao
AK
06:41
A K
"Hence, while some kinds of games, particularly prediction market or security deposit based games, can be made collusion-safe and identity-free, generalized public goods funding seems to be a class of problem where collusion-safe and identity-free approaches unfortunately just cannot be made to work."
06:41
Contradicts the amoveo DAC idea?
Z
06:42
Zack
Vitalik thinks dac does not work
K
06:42
Kalinoff
should we trust the iOS Veo Wallet App ?
Z
K
06:48
Kalinoff
thx
Z
06:52
Zack
In reply to this message
The mistake in his argument on this page is that he only considers the case where someone is directly paying for the public good to be created.
He is not considering the case where someone buys insurance against the possibility that the public good does not get created.
Vitalik has commented more directly on dac before.
His argument was that if there is a 100% chance of the good being produced, then no one would have an incentive to donate.
I don't see this as an issue. The producer of the good doesn't have to reveal how far along he is, so contributors don't know the odds of it getting produced.
Even if it isn't 100% effective, it would still be nice to have more ways to fund public goods.
Maybe demanding 100% success is why public projects go over budget so often.
He is not considering the case where someone buys insurance against the possibility that the public good does not get created.
Vitalik has commented more directly on dac before.
His argument was that if there is a 100% chance of the good being produced, then no one would have an incentive to donate.
I don't see this as an issue. The producer of the good doesn't have to reveal how far along he is, so contributors don't know the odds of it getting produced.
Even if it isn't 100% effective, it would still be nice to have more ways to fund public goods.
Maybe demanding 100% success is why public projects go over budget so often.
SS
07:03
Spike Spiegel
"The incentive misalignment between MKR holders and CDP holders is crazy. MKR holders get stability fees, PETH holders basically take the risk if something goes wrong via the PETH/ETH ratio. I get that MKR has dilution risk in a global settlement but given the singular interest of MKR holders isn't it plausible for them to vote around this?"
07:04
I suggest creating reasonable rebuttals to MKR system - the reality is that people will use "whatever kinda works" and most people aren't interested in using perfect / actually secure solutions for their problems
07:06
Imagine a system where risk is not tied to rewards / incentives:
If maker will work mkr holders will be rich
If maker fail they can still bail themselves and punish whole Ethereum ecosystem
If maker will work mkr holders will be rich
If maker fail they can still bail themselves and punish whole Ethereum ecosystem
Z
07:19
Zack
In reply to this message
People are interested in saving money.
There is a tradeoff between security and price.
So a more secure system is cheaper.
In the long run, the most secure system has a big advantage.
There is a tradeoff between security and price.
So a more secure system is cheaper.
In the long run, the most secure system has a big advantage.
SS
08:18
08:18
Looking for "ontology" of the systems - level 1,2,3,4 - cannot find the blogpost
08:20
I wish there was even simple tag system for browsing content effectively
MF
Z
08:25
Zack
the docs should probably all be reorganized
08:25
and a lot should be deleted
08:25
There some stuff I started writing, and then I just forget about it half way through
08:26
google works pretty well for me. "github amoveo trust theory"
08:27
incentive compatible just means we don't have to keep secrets from each other.
08:28
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revelation_principle
Any mechanism that we make can be made in an incentive compatible version.
Any mechanism that we make can be made in an incentive compatible version.
SS
08:28
Spike Spiegel
What about organising ideas like this: https://www.gwern.net/
Github is great for code but bad for text ( if not post processed via some static content generators like pelikan )
Github is great for code but bad for text ( if not post processed via some static content generators like pelikan )
08:29
or https://lawler.io/ ( also great layout / css )
08:31
Imagine being able to put beautifully crafted typography with clear syntax + margin / side notes for better understanding? IMHO this is best for explaining very complex topics / programming / math proofs
08:34
One can create scripts to automatically get markdown files from GH and publish it somewhere with more pleasant formatting and tags
Z
08:36
Zack
it looks nice, but I already have a lot to do.
Maybe someone will make a pull request for this.
Maybe someone will make a pull request for this.
SS
08:39
Spike Spiegel
I will try as it's just time consuming and not hard to do.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
08:39
Zack
github markdown is pretty good
08:39
maybe we just need to make the pages prettier, and add a nice table of contents
EA
EA
10:03
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Growth for the sake of growth isn’t good. Startups should have clear objectives and metrics to track progress. What do you think the important metrics of Amoveo are?
Here are a few I’ve been thinking of:
-VEO price
-Amount of VEO locked up in channels
-# of business partners using Amoveo
-# or VEO amount of DACs funded
-???
What are your thoughts
Here are a few I’ve been thinking of:
-VEO price
-Amount of VEO locked up in channels
-# of business partners using Amoveo
-# or VEO amount of DACs funded
-???
What are your thoughts
Z
10:11
Zack
I think important metrics are:
1) How much stablecoin can I buy/sell without moving the price much?
2) How long does it take a new user to go from holding bitcoin, to making their first veo derivative?
3) Can I meet the demand for new users wanting to learn how to make Amoveo derivatives?
1) How much stablecoin can I buy/sell without moving the price much?
2) How long does it take a new user to go from holding bitcoin, to making their first veo derivative?
3) Can I meet the demand for new users wanting to learn how to make Amoveo derivatives?
EA
10:28
Eric Arsenault
What would the corresponding objectives be?:
1) have a large amount of long VEO positions (not sure)
2) minimize effort for bitcoin user onboarding
3) not sure... when you say “can I meet demand” do you mean you personally? I feel like this is related to 2)... this is really about minimizing cognitive load and steps. Objective would still be “minimize effort for new user onboarding”
1) have a large amount of long VEO positions (not sure)
2) minimize effort for bitcoin user onboarding
3) not sure... when you say “can I meet demand” do you mean you personally? I feel like this is related to 2)... this is really about minimizing cognitive load and steps. Objective would still be “minimize effort for new user onboarding”
Z
10:30
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/makerdao.md
I wrote the document about why and how makerdao will fail.
I wrote the document about why and how makerdao will fail.
10:32
In reply to this message
1) we want more liquidity in the market for stablecoins. It is a prerequisite for many other goals.
3) once people are showing up and asking me questions faster than I can help them, that is called product market fit. It means we can transition to the next stage of the business, a lot of things would change.
3) once people are showing up and asking me questions faster than I can help them, that is called product market fit. It means we can transition to the next stage of the business, a lot of things would change.
EA
10:34
Eric Arsenault
If we have good UX, people should not be asking you questions
10:35
I feel like objectives would be
1) high liquidity for stablecoin creation
2) minimal cognitive effort and time required to on-board
1) high liquidity for stablecoin creation
2) minimal cognitive effort and time required to on-board
10:37
?
Z
10:40
Zack
they say it is like a flood when you hit product market fit, and we will know it when it happens.
I haven't been a part of a startup that achieved PMF before.
I haven't been a part of a startup that achieved PMF before.
10:40
we probably need to get power users before that can happen
PB
10:41
Phil Bonello
People don't want to use stablecoins unless there is a market to use stablecoins
10:41
I don't just want a stablecoin. I want a stablecoin so that I feel comfortable using it in other more interesting markets
Z
10:41
Zack
I guess it will happen in this order
1) power users
2) minimal onboarding effort
3) stablecoin liquidity
4) rapid growth
1) power users
2) minimal onboarding effort
3) stablecoin liquidity
4) rapid growth
EA
10:43
Eric Arsenault
So... back to metrics. Would amount of VEO locked up be a good metric for 1) ?
10:44
In channels
Z
10:44
Zack
no
EA
10:44
Eric Arsenault
# trades?
Z
10:45
Zack
I think if we had at least 2 people making derivatives every day, that would be enough to achieve (1)
10:45
if we had 10 people, it would be faster
10:45
more than 10 would probably not make a difference
EA
10:46
Eric Arsenault
Maybe # trades then. Is there a way to measure this?
Z
10:46
Zack
no.
10:46
if someone is making trades every day, they will come here and ask questions, they will give suggestions, we will be able to tell.
EA
10:46
Eric Arsenault
Hm... privacy certainly poses problems wrt tracking
10:46
Lol
10:47
I guess # oracles completing is public right?
10:48
But that’s probably bad metric
Z
10:49
Zack
qualitative metrics are fine.
EA
10:49
Eric Arsenault
True
MF
10:51
Mr Flintstone
if there is demand for veo the price will go up
EA
10:51
Eric Arsenault
Ok so: Objectives (and metrics):
1) high number of trades (qualitative metrics)
2) minimal onboarding effort (qualitative and quantitative)
3) stablecoin liquidity
1) high number of trades (qualitative metrics)
2) minimal onboarding effort (qualitative and quantitative)
3) stablecoin liquidity
Z
10:52
Zack
In reply to this message
I like this better.
simply having more trades isn't enough. we need power users.
simply having more trades isn't enough. we need power users.
EA
10:53
Eric Arsenault
If we have lots of users placing bets, won’t we get same information as if we have 1 power user? I’m not sure...maybe you are right
10:54
1 power user would get into the weeds a lot more
Z
10:54
Zack
no, having lots of irregular users is much slower. They say if your startup can't get power users, it can never succeed.
The people who show up regularly realize things about the product that we can't realize any other way.
The people who show up regularly realize things about the product that we can't realize any other way.
EA
10:55
Eric Arsenault
Makes sense
Z
10:55
Zack
if they are scratching an itch that really exists in their life
EA
10:56
Eric Arsenault
Every startup is different (saas model for example doesn’t follow this, B2C stores don’t always either)
10:56
But in this case, I would agree
10:57
Ok so: Objectives (and metrics):
1) power users (qualitative metrics)
2) minimal onboarding effort (qualitative and quantitative metrics)
3) stablecoin liquidity
1) power users (qualitative metrics)
2) minimal onboarding effort (qualitative and quantitative metrics)
3) stablecoin liquidity
10:59
I’m not sure how to measure 3, but maybe looking at bet offers with Long VEO positions?
Z
11:00
Zack
measuring (3) is easy.
If I want to buy/sell $10k of stablecoins today, how far would I move the price?
If I want to buy/sell $10k of stablecoins today, how far would I move the price?
EA
11:01
Eric Arsenault
If there are no bet offers, you wouldn’t be able to move a price, or buy stablecoin
Z
11:02
Zack
yeah, that definitely means we have not yet achieved the goal.
EA
11:04
Eric Arsenault
Looking at order book could be a good way to asses this I think
11:04
But not always
11:04
🤦♂️
11:07
I also feel like DAC funding is a good objective if we think it’s an essential part of funding Amoveo
11:08
In reply to this message
yeah, a DAC would be great.
If someone running a DAC was getting enough payments, they could be a power user.
If someone running a DAC was getting enough payments, they could be a power user.
EA
11:09
Eric Arsenault
What do you think objectives are wrt security?
Z
11:10
Zack
that no one gets any of their veo stolen? I am not sure of this question
EA
11:13
Eric Arsenault
Lol
11:13
Yeah, I guess this is a given
11:14
Maybe it relates to your security rating
11:14
Like amoveo has 2.1 or lower rating... something like that
Z
11:17
Zack
we would probably need ASICS before we can get to 2.1
11:17
It is only like $300k to buy enough FPGA to control half the hashpower of Amoveo now
EA
11:17
Eric Arsenault
Right
Z
11:18
Zack
I guess different people can have different goals.
I am sure not going to work on making an ASIC
I am sure not going to work on making an ASIC
EA
11:18
Eric Arsenault
So does security objective relate to hash power maybe?
11:19
Maybe objective is: make it as expensive as possible to control half the network
Z
12:14
Zack
I'm thinking I'll make probabilistic payments, and a tool where you can make a tiny probabilistic payment to make a post or register a user name.
I'm wondering if we should make a new private key for the probabilistic payment account?
Or require them to save more private keys?
Or deterministicaly generate more private keys from the one we have.
I'm wondering if we should make a new private key for the probabilistic payment account?
Or require them to save more private keys?
Or deterministicaly generate more private keys from the one we have.
12:15
we could take the hash of a private key to make a new valid private key.
12:16
Oh, we should salt it with a nonce, then hash it.
So the number of the nonce is the number of probabilistic payment account we are using
So the number of the nonce is the number of probabilistic payment account we are using
12:17
The light node can keep downloading Merkel proofs to find out your next available pp account.
Z
12:38
Zack
http://www.overcomingbias.com/2019/04/space-fund.html
Robin Hanson has an idea on how to raise funds for public goods.
This seems a lot like what @arsena21 has been dreaming about.
Robin Hanson has an idea on how to raise funds for public goods.
This seems a lot like what @arsena21 has been dreaming about.
SS
12:38
Spike Spiegel
Probabilistic payments looks like gambling to me which may get people addicted
Z
12:39
Zack
In reply to this message
You can use them to refuel channels without doing anything on-chain
12:39
It makes the lightning network a lot more scalable. We don't have to close channels almost ever
12:40
We don't have to calculate ideal paths like in bitcoin. Because we can refuel all the channels right away.
SS
12:43
Spike Spiegel
I remember story about Tesla and Edison.
Tesla was pushing alternating current and Edison was not able to understand how it works ( DC is much simpler to explain ).
Both unspent outputs and state changes are easy to understand while prob payments are tricky
Tesla was pushing alternating current and Edison was not able to understand how it works ( DC is much simpler to explain ).
Both unspent outputs and state changes are easy to understand while prob payments are tricky
Z
12:48
In reply to this message
You don't have to understand. That stuff is all hidden behind a pretty ux
SS
12:52
Spike Spiegel
What's the unit of account for probabilistic payment? Is 10% chance of 1 VEO worth exactly 0.1 VEO?
For me it's worth slightly less than 0.1 due to my utility curve
For me it's worth slightly less than 0.1 due to my utility curve
Z
12:54
They do payments frequently enough so that the averages even out in each month
12:55
It could be nice for having an anti-sybil api.
You have to pay for every request
You have to pay for every request
12:55
Or an anti-sybil tool for a website. So you don't need accounts.
SS
12:57
Spike Spiegel
Well. IHMO it isn't a large problem - the larger one is that spreads on VEO are high so you cannot even use VEO for value transfer: if I have to pay somebody $100 worth of VEO I buy them for current price + spread but receiver will have to sell for price - spread which may be significantly lower then $100.
Both bitcoin and eth are liquid and traded with low spreads so I can use the trick. I cannot settle with veo payment because of that
Both bitcoin and eth are liquid and traded with low spreads so I can use the trick. I cannot settle with veo payment because of that
Z
12:57
Zack
What if instead of buying like 200 celular text messages, every time you sent a message there is a 0.5% chance that you run out of messages.
SS
12:58
Spike Spiegel
Solution to sybil problem is using Facebook
12:59
If something isn't 100% free for retail / customers it will reduce chances of getting massive scale
Z
13:00
Zack
It could be a great tool for making the core node more secure.
13:00
Even if it does nothing else
13:00
But I think it will be used for channels at least
SS
13:01
Spike Spiegel
But OTOH if you pitch Amoveo as next Whatsapp ( both based on Erlang etc... ) - Whatsapp but with p2p trading and e2e encryption it makes perfect sense
13:02
So you can have sybil resistant messaging without relaying on phone number verification
Z
13:02
Zack
Yes
13:03
I think it's more than a chat tool though.
It could be a basic security measure of many websites. To make it easier to use the website. You don't need a password or username or email or anything.
It could be a basic security measure of many websites. To make it easier to use the website. You don't need a password or username or email or anything.
13:03
It makes it easier to build secure websites
SS
13:06
Spike Spiegel
but it would require serious effort for key mgmt / recovery
Z
13:06
Zack
This would be a great way to pay for wolfram alpha time.
SS
13:06
Spike Spiegel
uh, no 21.co tried this and they pivoted to bounties and getting aquired by coinbase
Z
13:07
Zack
With Wolfram?
SS
13:07
Spike Spiegel
Idea sounds great but it's guaranteed to get 0 traction
13:08
Paying for hosting would be nice and I would use it
13:09
For example I have file available and I stream money to have it available and if it's not available or 404 then i escalate to oracle or something and get security deposit back
13:10
How to make "incentive compatibile" or system 2 secure storage and processing?
13:10
Like Golem / Filecoin combined?
13:21
Also what do you think folks how much it would cost to create something like this for VEO?
I mean high quality explainer https://urbit.org/primer/
I mean high quality explainer https://urbit.org/primer/
13:22
Urbit is close to pointless as a system yet it's getting traction by attracting power users via primer / writing blogpost / memes
EA
13:35
Eric Arsenault
By primer do you just mean a nicely designed page like that?
SS
13:38
Spike Spiegel
yep, btw I wish Amoveo could implement some elegant ID system like this: ~laptel-holfur
EA
13:39
Eric Arsenault
One page only?
13:39
10 VEO?
13:39
5 VEO?
13:39
Probably more on lower end
SS
16:27
Spike Spiegel
I would love to create Polkadot futures without the risk of the exchange getting hacked
SS
16:42
Spike Spiegel
with expiry q1 2020 and as little veo exposure as possible
SP
19:48
Stepan Panov
It seems that HitBTC finally unfroze deposits and withdrawals
AK
19:49
A K
In reply to this message
let's pitch veo to Moldbug, have you seen a video of him debating futarchy? ;)
MF
20:31
Mr Flintstone
hopefully hitbtc has the latest update or they’re gonna freeze again
20:32
what you can do is deposit a small amount of veo so if they make the price ridiculously higher than qtrade again it’s easy to profit. i had no issue withdrawing btc from hitbtc
S
SP
S
20:47
Sebsebzen
I’ll chip in 0.5 VEO for promo shots :D
Š
20:49
Šea
In reply to this message
Im down for that, if few of us chip in 0.5VEO Zack could actually sit on the real chair on that shooting
GJ
21:03
Guillermo Joya
Wow I got a Nikon Camera here in NYC.
Z
21:18
Oh, I just checked my email. Hitbtc says they are all updated now
S
21:42
Sy
True, their wallet status says online
21:43
buys are at 0.019 tho so...no opportunity
Z
21:43
Zack
How much can I take by arbitrage?
MF
21:44
Mr Flintstone
a lot
21:44
there’s a bid for 50 veo at 0.0265
21:44
on hitbtc
21:45
so maybe a hundred to a few hundred dollars of arb opp unless the asks on qtrade get their shit together
S
22:02
Sy
huh?
22:02
there are sells at 0.027, we got those too and a buy at 0.019
22:02
qtrade lowest sell is 0.024 so no aribtrage at all
Z
22:02
Zack
Maybe someone already took it.
S
22:03
Sy
ah nvm lol i mixed up columns
Z
22:04
Zack
https://twitter.com/zack_bitcoin/status/1115978347996172288?s=19
Pretty ironic.
The augur oracle in v2 will depend on a trusted feed type oracle to function.
Pretty ironic.
The augur oracle in v2 will depend on a trusted feed type oracle to function.
S
22:04
Sy
yep you could sell 50 at 0.0265
22:06
but you cant buy them anywhere so...dunno xD
22:06
you would have to buy them for 0.025 on qtrade, no idea about a1
EA
MF
22:09
Mr Flintstone
there is 38 veo for sale below 0.0265 on qtrade
22:10
yeah, I guess you’d make a little less than 4% profit or so
22:10
so like 150-200 usd?
22:10
or a little less I guess
22:11
I think people already did the arb. I remember that bid being for 80 veo on hitbtc a week ago
S
22:11
Sy
you still have the risk of tx time
22:11
about 1h until they get to hitbtc
MF
22:12
Mr Flintstone
yeah
22:13
And I bet ppl are in line in front of you