3 March 2019
Z
18:00
Zack
In reply to this message
there are derivatives off-chain in the lightning network of mainnet.
18:00
Deleted Account
How can I see them ?
Z
18:01
Zack
contracts inside of the state channels are private to the 2 participants of the channel.
18:01
Deleted Account
Hum.. I see .
Z
18:02
Zack
http://explorer.veopool.pw/?input=oracles_asks
Here are some oracles that people put on-chain.
The channels could be betting on the outcome of any of these.
18:03
Deleted Account
Is it possible to Know the amount they bet or the number of bets ? It's not anonymous Blockchain right ?
18:06
Ok nevermind I see.
Z
18:07
Zack
You can tell how much money is in a channel.
You can't tell how many bets that money is divided between, and you can't tell how much of the money is being bet.
18:09
State channels are considered a more privacy minded way of having smart contracts, but it is not as strong security as something like ZCash, because if there is a disagreement between the two channel participants, the channel contract could get published on-chain, which would ruin their privacy.
18:09
The vast majority of Amoveo smart contracts will stay private.
18:24
Deleted Account
Why so few oracle's , it's expensive to set one ?
Z
18:29
Zack
The light node tool for asking oracle questions is new.
3 days ago you needed to run a full node to ask an oracle question.

It costs 0.022 veo to ask an oracle question, which is like $1.
18:30
http://139.59.144.76:8080/new_oracle.html this is the new page for asking oracle questions.
18:52
Deleted Account
Got it thanks.
J
20:28
Jeans
maybe we should have a dedicated telegram channel on which we could offer and ask for OTC stablecoin
Z
20:28
Zack
We have a channel for testing the tool. I'll add you to the channel and we can make a trade if you want
J
20:50
Jeans
In reply to this message
Thanks!
4 March 2019
Z
22:25
Zack
I am thinking of updating the algorithm we use for making and verifying signatures.

For the limit order new_channel tx, we need to be able to include a signature of some channel state, and ideally we don't want to include that channel state into the tx.
So we need to include some hash checksum of the channel state that is signed.

This seems generally useful, so instead of having custom signatures for channel state, maybe all the signatures should work this way.
It would make it take slightly longer to verify signatures.
22:26
I can't think of any blockchain that has hard updated the signature algorithm before.
It will sure be goofy using different rules to verify signatures in old blocks vs new ones.
B
22:29
Ben
that means miner need to adopt right?
M
23:31
Minieep21
@denis_voskvitsov need to change the reward on https://amoveo.io/mining/
MF
23:33
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
yeah miners need to update for any hard update
23:33
along w everyone else
DV
23:41
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
thx, changed
5 March 2019
S
01:14
Sy
In reply to this message
it sounds more like internal signing, not the hashing algorithm and since everyone is mining on pools anyway...business as usual
B
01:30
Ben
roger that
TG
02:33
Toby Ganger
I will make the point again that I made about 6 months ago.

1. In most economic spheres, users must find utility before market cap grows. In crypto, the market cap must grow in order for the tech to have utility. This is because it is a social technology and therefore it gains utility with each additional node on the network.

2. Crypto prices go up primarily due to speculation that has very little, if any, connection to utility or fundamentals. It is mostly due to marketing and hype. The marketing and hype doesn’t inherently make the product inferior, it simply allows the potential for adding nodes to the network, thus giving the tech potential future utility.

3. The idea that we will find our market and THEN begin to market the product doesn’t appear to be a functional model in the crypto sphere. It reduces the likelihood of ever finding a market, it increases the likelihood of focusing on the wrong market or too narrow of a market, and it increases centralization of decision making.

4. If we wish to grow Amoveo in terms of price and community the only way to do so is to:
A. Improve the UI
B. Market the brand
C. Hope that this brings new speculators who bring liquidity which begets more liquidity.
D. Hope that leads to a price rise that brings more attention and liquidity.
E. Which in turn gives the tech more utility and gives other developers interest and incentive to join in on development.

I strongly urge again for Zack and the community to consider these points if they haven’t already. If you can point out how I’m wrong I’d be happy to cede it to you. I simply wish to see great tech succeed and far all of us early investors to see a nice return on our risk.
02:41
Deleted Account
what you say is only true if the coin/product is already overhyped. if it is priced correctly, no need to bring in more speculators. otherwise i agree that ui must be improved. I would go further, ui, user experience and information must improve a lot. That does not diminish the uniqueness of Amoveo, and the potential of this coin
B
02:51
Ben
i think we all agree that the potential is huge, but it is hard to leverage the potential under current Cicumstances
02:52
i would see the UI and easynes to use as biggest hurdels to current adoption
G
02:53
Ghadras
product 1st then marketing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY15CPHInPA
MF
02:53
Mr Flintstone
once we have limit orders as new channel tx (next hard update) it probably makes sense to do a deep dive into ux
02:53
I think that will be the most used feature of veo anyhow
G
02:53
Ghadras
Listen what Steve Jobs told us
TG
02:54
Toby Ganger
In reply to this message
My point regarding price was that speculation increases liquidity and price which in turn increases utility. There is little to no utility, regardless of the quality of tech without a growing user base. It doesn’t happen the other way around in crypto.
02:55
In reply to this message
Steve Jobs was right with most other ecosystems. But that is not applicable to crypto.
T
03:35
Tromp
In reply to this message
I thinks these are really good points
Z
04:22
Zack
In reply to this message
I am working on the ux every day.
What's up with people talking as if I hate any UX improvement?

What other suggestions did you give?
You want more advertisements, and more "hope".

I am certainly not against "hope", but I have no idea what you mean when you want us to create more.
It sounds like you want us to sell the hope of a product, instead of selling a product.

According to Toby, anything besides UX or pumping hope is a waste of time.
If he is right, it should be easy to build a futarchy market to confirm that only these things could benefit Amoveo's price.

I still can't help but think that the ability to quickly and precisely make custom financial contracts will be an important factor in our success.
If I am wrong, it should be easy to make a futarchy market to prevent me from wasting my time building this.
04:24
If you want to change this community, you need to use a futarchy market.
Trying to be persuasive or have a debate isn't going to help you.
S
04:24
Sebsebzen
Actually the VEO web wallet has pretty good UI
TG
04:38
Toby Ganger
In reply to this message
So your response is to completely straw man my entire argument. For goodness sakes, sometimes I think you’re hopeless on a human level man.

I never at any point said that development should take a backseat to promo. I never at any point said we should pump the coin. I never said you weren’t doing ux improvements.

I said the strategy of waiting to find your market and then promoting does not work in crypto. You will be waiting forever while sitting on great tech. The tech is a distant last in terms of investor priority behind price and liquidity. It’s like having amazing lyrics on a song with a terrible melody. One must promote extensively while developing to increase utility, liquidity, and price...and also to find out what your market actually is organically.

Stop the straw man nonsense and address the actual points made. Which you did not do at all.
04:41
In reply to this message
Or I could appeal to the person with the large developer reward to not waste his tech
Z
04:43
Zack
Good luck advertising a product before anyone can use it.

When you do that, you get herds of users each spending about 5 minutes until they realize it isn't ready to try out, and then they immediately forget about it.

If you think working on product is a waste of time, it's not clear why you would invest in amoveo.
There are so many other projects that follow what you seem to think is a better strategy. Ignoring usability and pumping hope.
04:46
It is critical to do testing during development, to confirm our expectations about how users will react to the product.
But we don't need some massive advertising campaign to get testers. We have always had more than enough testers.
04:47
Advertising when there is no usable product is a waste of money.
Advertising when we have something immediately ready to try out could be a profitable investment.
Z
05:42
Zack
I am working on this update to change how signatures work for channel state.
I don't want to make any existing channel_state signatures invalid.
So I am thinking we need some sort of versioning, so we will support both the old and new ways of signing channel state, at least for a couple months until we can be sure all the old-version channels are ended.
Z
06:11
Zack
I ran into a problem with this upgrade. example:
Bob makes an offer with the light node.
Alice accepts, signing the offer and putting it on-chain.
Time passes and Alice disappears.
Now Bob wants to close the channel without Alice's help.
In order to close the channel, Bob needs to access the signature that Alice put on-chain in the new_channel tx.

Currently this kind of data is not available to the light node. So we would need to make a merkel tree to store this kind of data.
And that would make this update a lot bigger.
So I am wondering if there is a simpler solution I am not seeing.
06:13
Maybe we will need to put this update further in the future, and close all the channels before it happens.
06:15
There are some other benefits to adding this new merkel tree.
When a solo-close or slash tx are done, we could store the signatures over that channel state.
This makes it a lot easier if the other participant is planning on using the same channel state with different data, which is probably the most typical way that they would create a channel-slash tx.
06:27
Does this info really need to be stored in a merkel tree?
Can't we just serve it from an api, on the same principle as a block explorer?
Maybe even it could cost something to access the info.
06:28
If someone gives you invalid data, you will know because you can verify the signature. as long as you still have your copy of the channel state.
TG
06:30
Toby Ganger
In reply to this message
The entire crypto-world begs to disagree.
06:31
In reply to this message
Imagine someone being so obtuse that THAT is what they gathered from my statement in spite of me clarifying otherwise.
06:33
It’s totally fine to disagree with me but when you continue to argue against arguments that i never made and i don’t believe it makes me wonder.

And you keep insisting that the crypto world works like other industries with regards to user base acquisition and retainment when it clearly does not.
MF
06:38
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
so we can just ask a full node to serve to us and should be ok?
06:38
also, couldn’t bob keep a copy of alices signature from the beginning anyways
Z
06:39
Zack
im thinking it should be a different program than the full node.
Im trying to keep the full node small as possible.
06:39
In reply to this message
Bob posts his offer on a forum somewhere. He doesn't know who Alice is until she publishes the new channel tx with her pubkey written on it.
MF
06:40
Mr Flintstone
right, this is anyone can spend
McFly49 invited McFly49
👻 invited 👻
EA
08:07
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Although I agree that having a high market cap and liquidity is a good thing, you should be aware that UI is actively being worked on. Zack has been hard at work making it more usable. 6 months ago, focusing on UI would have not made much sense since P2P derivatives just got released.
pa
08:11
patryk adas
Whats the easiest exchange to buy amoveo?
EA
08:11
Eric Arsenault
a1exchange or qtrade
pa
08:12
patryk adas
Thanks! Got me a while to wrap my head around, but the no bs approach and execution is spot on
08:14
In reply to this message
Btw. I can help with the UI for VEO, still didnt figure out how to make the proposal though
patrykadas.com
EA
08:17
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
So, in terms of your other points in 4.... A. Agree and being worked on, B. what do you propose for this? C-E. These are "hopes" based on action A. and B. so not really relevant.
pa
08:19
patryk adas
In reply to this message
Whats the product with functional model in crypto, based on what you are saying?
Z
08:19
Zack
In reply to this message
I am here if you have any questions about the javascript libraries available through the light node, and I can add more api to the full node if it makes it easier for you.
EA
08:19
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
I'll send you a msg directly
pa
08:20
patryk adas
In reply to this message
Thanks! Feel free to do so :)
EP
08:36
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
The best way for you ( and also for other guys in the community) to help Amoveo is to find someone who is willling to work on the UX side of Amoveo. Zack will do what he likes to do and what he is good at. You wont expect CR7 to play basketball to promote football. Veil based on Augur is a perfect example for anyone who want to develop sth more user friendly based on Amoveo. Three young graduates got decent funding quite easily from VC and started Veil. And veil can be very profitable in the future. Anyone who is able to do a great UX for Amoveo can be very successful in the future. What we can do is to find this kind of person or companies at this stage. This is the most realistic way to promote Amoveo.
TG
08:40
Toby Ganger
That’s one of the advantages of having an expanding community is new people with new talents can take part into the growth of the product while simultaneously being additional nodes in the network adding to the utility by being there. So I shall clarify again...I do not favor promotion in lieu of development. I happen to think, that the promotion both adds utility and adds development by bringing new hands on deck and increasingly decentralizes the direction as well. To put it simply, in crypto, promotion is part of the development process, through both financing development and bringing new talent on board.
SS
09:40
Spike Spiegel
Creating a visualisation / blueprint is a great way to show how future building will look like.

In same fashion one can show users look and feel of things that don't even exist yet - and if they would love it even in idea stage they will be willing to use the product
stas invited stas
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Regenton invited Regenton
Lipon invited Lipon
pa
18:04
patryk adas
Spike @FreeMachine @LingLingCapital If you have any product ideas that needs prototypes / visualisations / marketing materials I'd be happy to contribute to it
18:05
I work as a product designer (http://patrykadas.com/) and I've got a team with experience in blockchain-related projects (http://ontop.team)
S
21:10
Sebsebzen
Zack did anything come out of the Gitcoin idea?
21:11
You mentioned using them to help with the repo
Z
21:13
Zack
I don't know anything about gitcoin. I never mentioned them.
S
21:14
Sebsebzen
Really? Hmm, maybe somebody else in the chat. It's a tool to incentivize open source developers
21:15
Nvm
21:18
can someone test torrenting this for me?
21:18
I am setting up a DAC, and I want to embed the magnet link into the oracle question
21:19
it looks like magnet links are actually kind of big. maybe I should just stick the hash of the document into the oracle.
21:47
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
No seeders/peers with data.
Z
21:48
Zack
In reply to this message
and now?
21:48
I guess I forgot to click "ok" at the last step
21:48
so now I think I am seeding
21:48
Deleted Account
I will re-query the trackers.
Z
21:49
Zack
says 0 peers. maybe magnet links are a bad plan. I should just embed the hash of the document and post it in our forums.
21:49
now it says I have a connected peer
21:50
Deleted Account
I have two now.
21:50
No data incoming yet.
21:54
Seems like my client (Transmission) has discovered your peer (100% of file available), mode TdEX, but no data is being received on my end.
Z
21:55
Zack
Interesting.
Torrenting has been a big influence and inspiration for blockchains.
But as far as uploading new torrents, the usability is not very good.
21:56
Maybe I used the wrong trackers
21:56
Deleted Account
Well, magnets links are quite a step forwards, but creating new torrents is a bit of a hassle.
Z
21:57
Zack
my torrent node says it would send you the file, but you aren't asking for it.
21:57
Deleted Account
Maybe there is something wrong with a firewall on your end? Since it does seem to have discovered your peer (through PEX/peer exchange).
Z
21:57
Zack
could be
C
21:58
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
trackers are not working, how long ago did you create the torrent?
Z
21:59
Zack
like 5 minutes ago
C
21:59
Chris 🍞
might take some time then
Z
21:59
Zack
ok, cool
21:59
Deleted Account
Hm, maybe my UPnP is actually broken. I'll check.
C
22:03
Chris 🍞
ah wait, mine is uploading now
22:04
Deleted Account
I've received it as well now.
C
22:04
Chris 🍞
health will improve over time
C
22:19
Chris 🍞
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:b82a341d9a4b2059f2498ada1cc104e2beca4d2c&dn=Amoveo%20DAC%20SOW_Mar%204%202018_v2&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.iamhansen.xyz%3a2000%2fannounce

this one should work =)
Z
22:22
Zack
that magnet link is very short. I think we could embed it into an oracle question
C
22:23
Chris 🍞
yeah that should be possible, its only on a single tracker
6 March 2019
C
02:10
Chris 🍞
amoveo mining is core intensive right ?
S
02:10
Sy
core only, yes
C
02:15
Chris 🍞
what speeds are "normal" for 1080ti?
02:15
Using Dkat miner right now
Z
02:15
Zack
In reply to this message
there is a mining channel on discord https://discord.gg/PgCcMJF
C
02:16
Chris 🍞
ah oke thanks, i'll go there!
02:18
ghehe answer was there before i could ask the question =D
Deleted invited Deleted Account
EA
03:31
Eric Arsenault
I've been working with Zack to create the first DAC for the front end UX. Here is a link to the scope in pdf (https://bit.ly/2TkqfWo). The aim will be to increase usability and make it dummy-proof. The contract expires in 8 weeks although it should be complete before then. Please contact me if you would like to participate. I will need to create a DAC with every person looking to participate - send me a private message and we can get it going!!!
03:31
ping me if you have any questions... on the scope or any other details
Z
04:59
Zack
👍 Very exciting, this could be our first successful DAC.
Gambling in a DAC can be profitable.
pa
05:00
patryk adas
how will that work exactly?
05:00
super interested in it
Z
05:01
Zack
If you think Eric's contribution will make Amoveo 1% more valuable, and you have $10k of Veo, that means you expect to earn $100 if Eric builds the interface.

So it would make sense for you to buy $50 of insurance against the possibility that he will not build that interface.
05:02
this hedges your risk.
If many people follow the same logic, and they all buy insurance from Eric, then he will have proof that if he builds the interface he will get paid. So then he will be willing to invest effort into building it.
pa
05:03
patryk adas
that's cool
Z
05:05
Zack
yes, I think reading about this idea is when it really clicked for me, and I knew I had to work on blockchain prediction markets.
TG
05:28
Toby Ganger
In reply to this message
👍
T
06:21
Topab
In reply to this message
Nice. I want to participate. I can't DM in telegram (due to an unfair for life ban), can you DM me please?
EA
06:32
Eric Arsenault
Yup
B
15:01
Ben
the PDF from eric is a MOCK UP right?
Drew invited Drew
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Tim Alex invited Tim Alex
S
15:58
Sy
In reply to this message
its most likely without function yet so, yes
Z
16:14
Zack
Eric is doing a dac to raise funds for build the tool described in that pdf
B
16:24
Ben
roger that
16:25
if the DAC is ready, hit me up i'm in with some veo
Z
16:25
Zack
Contact Eric to participate
B
16:26
Ben
sure
SP
16:30
Stepan Panov
Do you think we should be also making DACs to raise funds to get listed on bigger exchanges? Surely that'll give VEO a lot of traction
Z
16:31
Zack
In reply to this message
You can if you want. I think we already have enough exchanges, so I won't participate in that.
[
19:02
[Riki]
In reply to this message
But none of em rhymes with finance
Z
19:23
Zack
I wish Paul Sztorc would review the Amoveo oracle.
SS
19:37
Spike Spiegel
Isn't he involved in competing project?
Z
19:37
Zack
I think of Amoveo as a branch of the truthcoin project that he started
19:38
Maybe in some sense we are competing, but we all share the same dream of a more rational, less violent future.
19:39
Paul is the one explained our dream in a way that people could understand.
I started working on blockchain because I read what Paul wrote.
s
19:52
sanket
In reply to this message
What is a DAC?
SP
19:52
Stepan Panov
In reply to this message
Dominant assurance contract
Z
20:04
Zack
it is an incentive compatible way to raise funds for public goods.
Each participant is incentivized to contribute in proportion to how much the public good will benefit them.
s
20:20
sanket
I would be willing to try it.
Z
20:28
Zack
contact Eric to participate
EP
20:38
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
what if Eric unfortunately didnt deliver the UX as planned, what will happen?
20:39
And it has to be done manually for both sides?
Z
20:39
Zack
If the oracle thinks he didn't deliver, then you get your money back plus interest.
20:39
depending on the contract you negotiated with Eric.
EP
20:39
Evans Pan
where is the interest coming from?
Z
20:40
Zack
the contract is a bet. he is betting that he will deliver. you are betting that he will not deliver.
Z
23:14
Zack
Now there are 2 ways to sign SPK, and the full node will accept either format in it's transactions.
You can either sign normally, or you can sign over the hash of the spk.
If you sign over the hash, signatures look different instead of being like <<N:568>>, now they are like {2, <<N:568>>}
so it is like there is a little flag on each signature so we can know that it is signing over the hash of the data and not over the data directly.
GJ
23:26
Guillermo Joya
Hey everybody what’s new ?
Deleted joined group by link from Group
7 March 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
01:10
Zack
Plan for simpler futarchy:
One person writes and signs 2 or 3 contracts, so anyone else can take the other sides of them.
He publishes them publicly
no one accepts them
This puts bounds on the correlation between 2 oracle outcomes
Nothing was written on-chain
MF
01:16
Mr Flintstone
futarchy without a central server will probably be popular I think
Z
01:17
Zack
completely off-chain is infinitely scalable.
I guess you do need to make the oracle.
01:18
since the bets never get matched, it doesn't matter how the oracle actually resolves. so you don't even have to resolve it.
EA
01:26
Eric Arsenault
Hi Everyone, I am trying to get the DAC wrapped up by Friday. Any stragglers, please get in touch.
01:26
(by DAC "wrapped up", I mean DAC bets placed)
EP
02:38
Evans Pan
Hi anyone want to buy veo stable coins, please let me know.
Z
02:42
Zack
If you are trading stablecoins, and have any questions, feel free to ask me.
MF
02:53
Mr Flintstone
discord
Z
02:54
Zack
banned.
MF
02:54
Mr Flintstone
lol
02:55
In reply to this message
how much are you willing to pay the stable side?
02:55
I think that’s an important aspect as well since I don’t think too many ppl would want to go short right now without getting paid
EP
04:51
Evans Pan
1% fee for a month.
Z
04:57
Zack
I got the new tx type working, but I am leaving it turned off to do some final reviews and schedule the hard update.
EP
05:00
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
To make the veo stable coin market really useful, we need a market to show different fees both sides offer or ask. Zack was asking 5% fee and someone else can offer 4%. And the buyers can choose the lowest fee.
Z
05:01
Zack
I was paying 5% fee to sell stablecoin, and I was taking 5% fee when buying stablecoin.
MF
05:04
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
great news!
EP
05:05
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
Yes,if there is another offer with 4% fee to buy stablecoin, the seller should choose the better one or the system automatically match the better offer first.
PL
05:17
Paww Lee
Hi guys! Is there a cap on VEO tokens?
Z
05:17
Zack
no.
PL
05:18
Paww Lee
Where can I find info on emission rates?
Z
05:18
Zack
well, maybe. we can't tell.
PL
05:18
Paww Lee
OK
05:18
you can learn about Amoveo here.
05:18
no one can predict the emission rate
PL
05:18
Paww Lee
Thanks!
05:22
Is it possible to store VEO on a hardware wallet?
Z
05:23
Zack
I think exan tech has a way to do that
05:24
I guess not. I thought someone did that at one point, but now I can't find it.
T
06:15
Tromp
Not yet
06:15
They said they are awaiting approval by the ledger team i think
Z
06:16
Zack
cool. Thanks Tromp
T
06:28
Tromp
👍🏻
Bull invited Bull
B
11:51
Bull
Hello
11:52
Just a few questions. What is Amoveo supply limit.
11:52
Looking into mining and interacting with network asap.
EA
12:31
Eric Arsenault
No limit
12:31
Futarchy based, check GitHub for more info in pinned msg
T
15:28
Topab
Some potential issues with DAI stable coin https://twitter.com/CremeDeLaCrypto/status/1103428046621618178
SP
16:30
Stepan Panov
In reply to this message
Yep, review is in the beginning of April
S
16:40
Sy
Hashrate dropped like 60%, the next block will take a bit
s
16:51
sanket
In reply to this message
Who reneged?
[
16:54
[Riki]
In reply to this message
Maybe someone followed zacks fire prevention measures and simply turned off all miners to comply 😁 (referring to zack's tweet)
B
16:58
Ben
FPGA have a new punchingball, easy as that ;)
S
17:11
Sy
so we had roughly 40 TH in fpgas, not bad
I
17:12
Instinct
In reply to this message
😂
Z
17:14
Zack
In reply to this message
This guy is over thinking it.
Dai stablecoin has this major drawback that make it unsuitable as a stablecoin:
it is a one size fits all system. Each user of stablecoins have different needs, but they cannot customize the margins for their needs, so the contract will be more expensive than it needed to be.

Users are sensitive to price. Being even 5% more expensive than an alternative is prohibitively expensive.
So dai won't be a popular stablecoin.
HX invited HX
SS
19:13
Spike Spiegel
Seems like you were right all along - marketplace for stablecoin with different prices and margins could exist - getting people to hold DAI without offering similar yield to dollar won't work
AK
19:18
A K
In reply to this message
Ppl deposit to Compound and similar lending facilities
19:18
Yield even higher than usd
SS
19:20
Spike Spiegel
But if you created CDP in order to buy more ETH you don't have DAI
AK
21:02
A K
but then you’re not holding DAI
21:02
so no yield expected
MF
21:47
Mr Flintstone
a little confused about this
21:49
3 month us treasury bill yielding 2.46%
21:49
compound is saying you can lend out dai for 2.4% APR
21:50
Understood effective yield is higher than apr but that doesn’t seem to come close to enough risk premium for the risks associated with lending dai
21:50
smart contract bug risk, cryptoeconomic risk in maker system etc, dai price risk
?
21:50
🤠Anton
I
21:55
Instinct
In reply to this message
Nice
AK
22:53
A K
In reply to this message
EMH is a bitch huh )
22:54
i think DAI yields were higher some time ago, up to 6%
22:54
agree they should be > USD Treasuries
SP
23:03
Stepan Panov
A
Amoveo News 07.03.2019 22:58:06
​​Amoveo is featured in a blogpost by HitBTC, the biggest exchange we're listed on so far!
8 March 2019
MF
00:38
Mr Flintstone
did something happen to the amoveo test telegram group? Can’t see it anymore
00:38
maybe I accidentally left it
SP
00:39
Stepan Panov
In reply to this message
it says you left yeah
EA
02:19
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Ben, I sent you a PM
Z
03:47
Zack
@potat_o we are all waiting for you for the update. check the DM I sent you.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Oddie S invited Oddie S
Z
07:34
Zack
https://discord.gg/xJQcVaT
Trading channel on discord.
JT
07:44
John T.
Any way to transfer my Amoveo to HitBTC , like an online wallet or something
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
09:01
Zack
@potat_o telegram says you were on recently, why do you not respond?
EA
11:05
Eric Arsenault
Zack - for the hard fork you just worked on, will be functionality be available for both binary and scalar oracles?
MF
11:19
Mr Flintstone
yeah
OK
11:51
O K
Not sure what 'recently' means but my device was literally powered off
11:54
Update looks good
M invited M
ozby invited ozby
Deleted invited Deleted Account
16:52
Deleted Account
Hi where can I find max supply, emission rate, halvenings. Metrics like that?
16:53
no max supply as in ETH, however inflation rate governed by futarchy
16:53
no halvenings embedded
Deleted invited Deleted Account
N
18:07
Noreg
|
Z
18:40
Zack
Between Mr Flinstone first coming up with the idea of a better way to negotiate new channel relationships, until the date when this hard update becomes active, is about 12 days.
It takes us less than 2 weeks to make these kinds of changes currently.
I doubt any other blockchain can adapt so quickly when new designs become available.

We can make consensus level changes faster than most blockchain projects can make smart-contract level changes.

Our fast adaptability is one of our biggest strengths.
It is an important characteristic to have since we are working on something new and our understanding of it is still changing.
T
19:06
Tromp
In reply to this message
🍺🍺
Z
19:08
Zack
Today I am adding this new kind of channel formation to the P2P derivatives interface in the light node
EW
19:47
Eli W
In reply to this message
👏👏💪
s
19:57
sanket
In reply to this message
As the community grows bigger it will become difficult no?
T
19:58
Tromp
In reply to this message
We would still have futarchy, it is going to be very interesting to see how the community starts learning about this governance mechanism which may be very unfamiliar to many of us
21:05
Deleted Account
.
M
21:12
Minieep21
In reply to this message
You alive?
21:14
Deleted Account
yeah
21:15
gone from twitter though, maybe in a few months all be back there. just hanging in discord/telegram these days
Z
21:16
Zack
In reply to this message
Futarchy should limit coordination problems that come from having a bigger group.

The reason we can update so fast has more to do the fact that the code was written to be easily updated.
9 March 2019
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Deleted invited Deleted Account
02:32
Deleted Account
Zack: Can you comment on this old critique of on-chain voting? How does Amoveo's futarchy defend against bribing and other forms of vote buying? Thanks! http://hackingdistributed.com/2018/07/02/on-chain-vote-buying/
Z
02:33
Zack
In reply to this message
Voting is not cryptoeconomically secure. It has no place in a blockchain.
02:36
Deleted Account
Okay, then I was naive to assume futarchy involves voting :):) will read more about it!
SS
02:48
Spike Spiegel
What is the status of Eric Arsenault DAC?
EA
03:55
Eric Arsenault
I am starting to place bets today once I have all the information
TG
05:43
Toby Ganger
I got Blockfolio to add the HitBTC market for VEO if anyone uses that app. Since HitBTC is our biggest volume market (real or not) I figured that would be helpful.
OK
05:45
O K
Good work Toby
kd invited kd
hugh chiu invited hugh chiu
M
10:21
Mike
In reply to this message
Thank you Toby. Been wondering about Blockfolio
10:21
Did they make their own Amoveo logo?
10:21
T
10:28
Topab
I already bet in the DAC
Deleted joined group by link from Group
M
15:29
Minieep21
Is no one arbing the difference between HitBTC and Qtrade?
PD
15:45
Pepe Doge
Hitbtc poor liqudity
S
20:08
Siasuomo
In reply to this message
Could you elaborate please!
Z
20:18
Zack
In reply to this message
It is vulnerable to bribery because of tragedy of he Commons.
Look up vitalik p + epsilon blog post to see how bad it can get.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
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Z
23:54
Zack
I am setting up the UI for the new way of making p2p derivatives.
Here is an example of what data needs to be published publicly so that anyone can make a contract with you.
I am thinking it might be a little long to publish plain-text, so maybe we will have to upload files to a site.

I am wondering what will be the best way to browse through a bunch of offers.

[[-6,1,3000,5000,"BHpLwieFVdD5F/z1mdScC9noIZ39HgnwvK8jHqRSBxjzWBssIR1X9LGr8QxTi8fUQws1Q5CGnmTk5dZwzdrGBi4=","BOzTnfxKrkDkVl88BsLMl1E7gAbKK+83pHCt0ZzNEvyZQPKlL/n8lYLCXgrL4Mmi/6m2bzj+fejX8D52w4U9LkI=",10000000,100000000,100000000,"n7i1AVKhLKDWi4+ECEHFu11Y91VZvWBg/cBcv4flroI=",2,1000,[-6,2,"MEUCIQDJpNH2NwWDXANKiU5JBvm0WQYn9dtJx08aALnRgz/hEgIgF93jlXflb4vlhoKLt7cPis9n//pfRJoGYyxKmsqZlt4="],"AAAAAhOHJw+fuLUBUqEsoNaLj4QIQcW7XVj3VVm9YGD9wFy/h+Wugk1FVUNJRHdNWFlYRnVyTmRibUxUaFl5K1BEK3lyNEVabytGWkJTN1NHUVd6YUVraUFpRUFzNnRPaGpNM0NpRXdUUzRScTc1NGN1MGFncHl1SUtZWm9td0V5UG1DeDdnPQ==",1,0,"JRMpW2yFfDLJeyCuc1R/TZARAIyJGT9QPkks05hueWg=",0,0,0,20000000],["signed",["nc_offer","BHpLwieFVdD5F/z1mdScC9noIZ39HgnwvK8jHqRSBxjzWBssIR1X9LGr8QxTi8fUQws1Q5CGnmTk5dZwzdrGBi4=",null,100000000,100000000,1000,1000,"JRMpW2yFfDLJeyCuc1R/TZARAIyJGT9QPkks05hueWg=",13],"MEUCIQC3bO9g7iPHHmqc1NBXvQkImyAnAl6Hd0acIF0WoGr7VQIgD2MBweYmJh7r9S97K4yZeN0byYZ05QUMULUktrC3ltg=",[-6]]]
23:55
only the signed nc_offer part actually ends up on the blockchain. the rest is just for making channel state.
10 March 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
J
00:29
Joshua
Zack quick question, why don't u use standardized json objects? Would be way easier to read and process in means of pool development and stuff...
Z
00:42
Zack
In reply to this message
It's nice to keep things in the format we use for signing.
We went with this signing format because of how erlang records work.
00:43
A js developer can treat this object as a binary. They shouldn't need to look in it manually.
There is a decoder.

I am displaying it in this minimized format so we can get an idea of how big it is, and think about how we will move this data between the users.
J
00:46
Joshua
In reply to this message
I can treat it as a json array, works fine 😊 so it's related to the Erlang records, explains a bit and to keep the structure is no bad intention tbh. I asked myself that a long time ago, but yeah xD as you just posted the snippet, I had to ask... Thx
Deleted invited Deleted Account
EA
02:55
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
I think uploading files is good for something like this
Z
02:56
Zack
yes, that is probably what we will do
EA
02:57
Eric Arsenault
What do you mean “I am wondering the best way to browse through a bunch of offers”?
02:57
Isn’t that done outside of light node
Z
02:57
Zack
if there were 1000 people who wanted to trade derivatives, and they all posted them in a telegram group, it would be a mess.
EA
02:58
Eric Arsenault
Yeah it would
02:58
It would be great to have a table with relevant info
Z
02:58
Zack
on some level, people will sort this our on their own.
But if we start them off in a good environment, it will grow faster.
EA
02:58
Eric Arsenault
That is true
02:59
A table with simple filter options would be great
Z
02:59
Zack
I was thinking we could start with one discord group or telegram group, and then splinter it every time it gets crowded or the topics diverge.
03:00
then have a table of contents web page that links to all the different groups by topic
03:00
it's not ideal, but it is an easy way to start
EA
03:00
Eric Arsenault
Yeah, I agree
03:01
Ideally, we have bet data available and filterable to people can find bets and fill them without needing to go on a forum
Z
03:02
Zack
yeah. I think a search tool would be nice, and it should store all the offers in a decentralized database like torrents
03:03
we aren't getting rid of the old P2P derivatives tool, this is a just a new way of accessing the same powerful Amoveo smart contract system.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
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07:04
Deleted Account
max supply.
07:05
amoveo max supply?
Z
07:10
Zack
no one knows the max supply.
Block reward is set by the governance mechanism.
07:11
Deleted Account
oky
07:11
thanks
Z
11:23
Zack
the new p2p tool is a little different because user1 needs to download their partner's signature from a tx in the blockchain in order to calculate their channel state.

So I am thinking that the otc_finisher page should allow you to use the trade_offer as an alternative to the signed channel state in this case, and it will download the data and build the final channel state then.
Z
12:28
Zack
So I have been thinking more about how to send the bet offer, and I had an idea.
How about we base64 encode the entire thing, and make it part of a URL.
Then you can use google to make a tiny link http://tinyurl.com/
so it will take you to a page where the details of the contract are already loaded.

I guess the drawback of this design is that it encourages people to use less secure web light nodes instead of downloading the light node from github.

The advantages to usability may overcome this drawback.

@Jbreezy0 and @arsena21 were wondering about how we should do this.
15:21
Deleted Account
How about making a 128 bit hash and store the full data somewhere? a new simple web page could do this easily
15:22
You could even just choose a name, and the web page generate a sweet url for you
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Z
18:53
Zack
I could program a url shortener yes, but I think I would have to charge Veo to use it.
Security is a lot easier when you can charge per use.
Pritesh Patel #tratok invited Pritesh Patel #tratok
Tiago invited Tiago
11 March 2019
TG
00:30
Toby Ganger
So if HitBTC is not doing the fork then we lose that market indefinitely?
Z
00:30
Zack
they will update eventually I am sure. once enough people complain
00:31
I have not been able to contact them
00:31
they will notice if trading suddenly stops, and then they will come to find out
00:32
I bet it will be back up within a day
b
00:34
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
Big balls you have, good
Z
02:51
Zack
Remember when I sold 10 veo of BTC stablecoin a couple weeks ago?
I guess that contract is worth 15 VEO to me now, since VEO has gone up so much.

Stablecoins are a great way to make a profit.
02:52
$60 -> $90
Deleted joined group by link from Group
b
04:39
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
Would you be able to close the win now?

How would it happen?
Z
04:41
Zack
I think the oracle doesn't settle for a while longer.
If the person wanted to settle early, and we agreed on the price, we could settle early.
Or I could make another bet to lock my gains, and cancel out any possibility of losing veo in these contracts.
b
04:49
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
Interested on the second one, you would bet with someone that thinks price will keep rising?
Z
04:50
Zack
correct
04:50
eventually we want to make tools so you can connect the two people you are betting with, so you can take your money out and they will bet directly together.
t
11:47
trappist
Zack about hitbtc's response to the update... sounds like graviex doesn't know about it but will participate if you reach out to them
14:12
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Any plans for trezor integration?
Peter invited Peter
Jethro4u invited Jethro4u
Ricky Love invited Ricky Love
RL
18:41
Ricky Love
Link to whitepaper please.
ŽM
18:42
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
Deleted invited Deleted Account
DV
19:18
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
not yet, but we're researching integration opportunities
Z
19:42
Zack
Ive been thinking about moving bets from indirect paths to direct paths.
Lets say Alice and Charlie are betting through a market hosted by Bob, and they want to move their bet to a direct path.

Our goals are:
1) Alice and Charlie shouldn't have to be online at the same time.
2) Bob's server is completely automated

I am thinking the way this would happen is that Alice and Charlie need to find each other, make a channel, and make all the new contracts for the update. Then they submit the contracts for updating both A-B and B-C at the same time as a single request to Bob.
That way Bob can have some automated process that verifies updating both these channels at once will free up his money without taking on risk.

Does that sound like a reasonable process?
P
19:43
Peter
Hi, Im new here, bought some VEO on HitBTC, but I just read about HITBTC will not participate in hard update. What can I do? Any new exchanges coming soon?
Z
19:43
Zack
In reply to this message
HitBTC emailed me saying that they will update in time for the upgrade.
I recommend never leaving money on an exchange. If you don't control the private key, then it is not your money.
19:44
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo
Here is a tool you can use to safely store your veo.
I recommend using cold storage.
P
19:44
Peter
Or IOS app
T
20:30
Tromp
In reply to this message
There is a wallet for ios
DV
20:35
Denis Voskvitsov
just note that with mobile wallets you're able to only receive and spend VEO. channels, markets etc aren't supported yet (though they'll be supported).
P
20:47
Peter
Any new listing in the pipeline?
P
21:05
Peter
In reply to this message
But I can send it from exchange to mobile wallet?
X
21:11
X | NPC
In reply to this message
Sure
21:11
Back and forth
P
21:18
Peter
It says "An error occurred, please try again later"
Z
21:19
Zack
In reply to this message
It would be nice to get some feedback
21:34
Deleted Account
"Bob can have some automated process that verifies updating both these channels at once will free up his money without taking on risk."
What
21:35
What's in it for Bob? Doesn't he benefit from being the middleman taking fees from both A&C ?
Z
21:36
Zack
bob probably took a fee when they made a bet in his market.
Now Bob wants to unlock his liquidity, so he can reuse that money for other people to make bets with.
21:37
Deleted Account
but he could take another fee if he intermediates the unwinding of the trade between A& C
Z
21:37
Zack
I am already assuming that moving a bet to a shorter path is in everyone's interest.
My question isn't about whether we should do this, it is about what is the correct sequence of messages between Alice Bob and Carol to get this done.
21:38
In reply to this message
He should be the one paying them for this service, since Bob is the only person who benefits from moving the bet to a direct path.
21:38
Alice and Carol are only interested if they are getting paid to do this.
21:39
Deleted Account
i see now
I?
21:59
IMPLENIA - Crypto Fund 🇸🇨 🇨🇭
Total Supply
60.124 VEO?
Z
22:15
Zack
yes, that is about right
I?
22:40
IMPLENIA - Crypto Fund 🇸🇨 🇨🇭
Thx
Deleted invited Deleted Account
12 March 2019
SB
02:19
Sylvinho Blanco
But the total supply is unlimited ?
Z
02:19
Zack
No one knows
SB
02:21
Sylvinho Blanco
But probably not, like now
Z
02:21
Zack
Block reward is set by the governance mechanism.
MF
04:55
Mr Flintstone
looks like fork happened?
04:55
at 57000
Z
04:56
Zack
Check out veoscan. We are not forked
04:56
Hitbtc just froze
04:56
I wonder if we even had a tx that would cause this. I haven't released the interface for making them yet.
04:56
Maybe they got scared about the idea of an update, and just shut it down
MF
04:57
Mr Flintstone
I meant fork as in update
04:57
ok
Z
04:57
Zack
One node stopped at 57004
So I guess 57005 could be where someone tested the new feature
MF
04:58
Mr Flintstone
I don’t see any channel tx
Z
04:58
Zack
That block is empty, yeah.
MF
04:58
Mr Flintstone
maybe I missed one
04:58
or maybe veoscan doesn’t support it
Z
04:59
Zack
I'm looking at the block in the full node now. It is empty.
04:59
Have we confirmed that they really halted withdraws?
MF
05:02
Mr Flintstone
Z
05:02
Zack
they could be letting it break on purpose to get the price low, so they can buy a bunch of veo cheap, and then fix it.
MF
05:03
Mr Flintstone
sometimes prices get really high when this happens
05:03
I remember this happened to REP on some Korean exchange for like months
05:04
after they disabled deposits and withdrawals
Z
05:04
Zack
I wonder how many veo are on their exchange
05:04
Should we threaten to freeze their account?
MF
05:04
Mr Flintstone
no lol
05:05
I’m sure there is a non malicious reason for freezing it
05:05
probably just caution
Z
05:06
Zack
I am taking them off of the list of recommended exchanges in the readme.
MF
05:07
Mr Flintstone
I would be very very surprised if hitbtc ever blindly updated their full nodes for updates without reviewing the changes at least a little bit
05:07
for any coin
05:07
I think we gave them like 4 days of notice which is probably not enough for their processes
S
05:07
Sy
maybe they just couldnt get the new node running because they didnt move the keys.db
MF
05:08
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
or this lmao
S
05:09
Sy
there isnt really any information about this in written form i think
Z
05:13
Zack
ok, I emailed them about moving the keys.db file.
They have not sent me any message about difficulties or getting stuck.
05:17
Does anyone know their Amoveo address? it would be nice to know how much veo is trapped on the exchange.
05:22
oh, there are 182 veo in their exchange, that isn't so bad as I was worried
MF
05:26
Mr Flintstone
you know their pubkey?
05:26
you can’t just go by the sell orders
05:26
I’d be surprised if it was actually that low
Z
05:26
Zack
less than 0.5% of the veo
05:27
oh, I didn't think they might write a different number than they actually have
05:28
looks like there is no account with 182 veo
MF
05:28
Mr Flintstone
no, there could be people holding veo on hitbtc but it isn’t on the order book
05:29
people use exchanges like banks
Z
05:29
Zack
oh, that is what the number means
05:29
so 182 is a lower limit
05:30
they only show a couple hours of trading history
MF
05:31
Mr Flintstone
lemme see if I can find their pubkey
05:31
I have a few veo there
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
05:35
Mr Flintstone
um
05:36
I must be making a mistake
05:36
this address sent veo to me when I withdrew from hitbtc
05:37
they have mined a ton of veo recently
Z
05:37
Zack
that looks like it is making txs in frequencies and quantities that are consistent with an exchange
MF
05:37
Mr Flintstone
yes but check the incoming tx from the mining pools
Z
05:37
Zack
I guess people are mining directly to the exchange?
MF
05:38
Mr Flintstone
they would mine to their own address, not the main address
Z
05:38
Zack
right
MF
05:38
Mr Flintstone
this pubkey has mined a crazy amount of veo. maybe more than half of recent veo
05:39
this is at a glance, would need to parse the data with code to be sure
S
05:40
Sy
i dont see any pool on the first page
I
06:10
Instinct
In reply to this message
Yep same for me
EP
09:01
Evans Pan
Is this hitbtc cold wallet?
09:04
This address also bought quite a few veo from qtrade.
09:08
I noticed this address for a few weeks. Everything looks like a giant pump scheme is on the way.
JS
10:21
Jon Snow
So Hitbtc didn't charge us $500k for listing and gonna pump VEO for free?
SS
10:23
Spike Spiegel
Although I'm interested in increasing VEO price the pure pumping isn't best way to do it - DAC's are effective and correct way to create good things for the project.
JS
10:31
Jon Snow
The Bitcoin Private (BTCP) gang gonna be really envying us 🤫
EP
10:40
Evans Pan
its strange indeed, but I can't imagine any other way why hitbtc accumulate 2500 veo and not selling it anywhere.
Z
14:32
Zack
I think HitBTC strategy is like this:
1) create lots of fake volume to get more people to deposit veo.
2) stop people from withdrawing veo
3) price of hitbtc-veo goes low because no one can withdraw
4) hitBTC buys up all the cheap VEO
5) hitBTC re-enables VEO withdraws, and then sells all the now expensive VEO.
14:37
They waited for a hard update announcement so that they could blame the lack of withdraws on Amoveo development.

The hard update has not yet engaged.
Even if they did not update their code, their node would still be in sync just fine.

HitBTC purposefully made the choice to disable withdraws, there was no technical limitation causing this to happen.
M
14:38
Minieep21
It's a shame that that's more likely than plain incompetence. HitBTC has been shady for a long time.
Z
15:11
Zack
I just synced a node using pre hard-update code. it still can sync all the blocks.
This confirms that HitBTC purposefully blocked withdraws. The version of software they were already running can process txs.
S
15:46
Sy
bb spam :)
B
15:47
Ben
i don't think that hibtc has bad intend, i mean the total value of veo on the exchange is way to low
15:48
to a exchange of that size it is chicken shit...
S
15:48
Sy
i would really love to know how much there is wash trading and how much real
15:49
or is it just bots going crazy?
B
15:49
Ben
wash trading is 90%+ i guess.
S
15:49
Sy
i mean if there is movements bots will use it
B
15:49
Ben
but i think it is hard to determine if it is wash trading or legit bot action
15:50
let's put it that way, i guess >90% is non organic trading.
M
15:50
Minieep21
Take a look at coinmarketcap volume. Almost all exchanges are wash trading
B
15:51
Ben
that is true
M
15:51
Minieep21
It's easy, just exchange account without fees being charged
S
15:54
Sy
im pretty sure there are bots (hundreds?) on every exchange, i mean just like the real exchanges - not sure how much volume they account for
15:54
most exchanges have tiered fees aswell, if you do alot of trades they are way down
15:55
and yes, some get VIP accounts without any fees
15:55
so i guess its a mix of those
16:06
It is possible that hitbtc just triggered some savetey
16:06
i mean usually at forks i increase the confirmation time aswell and some exchanges disable withdraws - or they couldnt update the wallet and thought it will break so -> disable for now
S
16:26
Sebsebzen
Does Mercatox have a good rep?
AK
16:55
A K
In reply to this message
+++
16:55
That huge mining wallet though 🤔
17:06
Deleted Account
Most exchanges run marketmakers. I think Qtrade is more of an exception.
17:07
Weird that they'd mine though.
S
17:15
Sy
In reply to this message
its not mining at all
AK
17:15
A K
ah, mr flinstone said it is
S
17:15
Sy
only 2nd level accounts
17:15
so miners sending to the exchange
AK
17:15
A K
In reply to this message
here
S
17:15
Sy
yes
17:15
its incorrect
AK
17:15
A K
ok ok miners to exchange makes sense
17:17
a paste so its searchable
17:17
veopool is bc80
17:17
ap bgjj
17:19
2887 veo deposited, 255 withdrawn so far
AK
17:22
A K
any chance for balances sum by row?
Z
17:22
Zack
for every 10 veo put onto the exchange, only 1 was taken off?
17:23
I guess you would only need 10% backing to run a cryptocurrency bank.
EP
17:44
Evans Pan
so this address is hitbtc wallet, and miners deposit the veos to hitbtc and not selling it.
17:44
that make sense.
Z
17:47
Zack
I am thinking we need software and documentation so that HitBTC can just use a light node.
That way they can ignore almost any update.
AK
17:53
A K
👍
Cryptoneo invited Cryptoneo
EP
18:50
Evans Pan
A few top miners acted together to deposit into hitbtc. They paid the listing fee?
B
19:00
Ben
i don't think so
S
22:49
Sebsebzen
In reply to this message
+1
Z
23:34
Zack
3 days after we tell HitBTC to update, today they finally attempted to update.
This is their full report explaining the errors that they ran into, and asking for me to help:

"We have followed the upgrade instructions, but the updated node won't sync no matter what we try."

This is the worst communication I have received from anyone who has asked for assistance with using the full node.
They did not tell me what they tried. They did not explain what went wrong. It is impossible for me to give useful advice to someone who is such a poor communicator.
S
23:35
Sy
😂
Z
23:36
Zack
Even worse, she didn't try it herself, she is giving me second hand info she received from her "team".
S
23:36
Sy
those are the best...
OK
23:37
O K
I will make some instructions that should not fail
AK
23:39
A K
i’d pay for a DAC with a Docker image or smth
23:39
chef puppet ansible whatever
23:39
to make veo plugnplay )
Z
23:40
Zack
In reply to this message
I think a light node is the answer here.
OK
23:40
O K
cd
mv amoveo amoveo.backup
git clone https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
cd amoveo

make prod-restart
(or)
./_build/prod/rel/amoveo_core/bin/amoveo_core console
api:off().
halt().

cp ~/amoveo.backup/_build/prod/rel/amoveo_core/keys/keys.db db/keys/
make prod-restart

sync:start().
23:40
Sorry, formatting issues
Z
23:40
Zack
In reply to this message
ok, ill forward this to them
13 March 2019
SP
01:41
Stepan Panov
A
Amoveo News 13.03.2019 01:41:36
Here is the first edition of our weekly newsletter about Amoveo. If you have any comments, suggestions and ideas on how it should be improved, the contact details are provided within. Similarly, if you're a developer working on anything Amoveo related and wishing to be included in the next edition, get in touch. This is the very first one, hope you enjoy it:

https://amoveo.substack.com/p/1-1-year-anniversary-and-hard-update
I
01:44
Instinct
In reply to this message
Nice work 👏🏼
MF
01:46
Mr Flintstone
good stuff!
01:48
the Venezuela thing is pretty cool
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
01:52
Tromp
Hahahaha it is very true my miners shut off during the blackout
01:52
Fucking maduro
SP
01:58
Stepan Panov
Yeah, loved the Venezuela thing as well! I hope to be posting one every Monday evening from now on, so any such facts and little stories I might miss - shoot them my way :)
Deleted joined group by link from Group
M
03:25
Minieep21
In reply to this message
Awesome, is this on Twitter?
SP
03:26
Stepan Panov
In reply to this message
I’ve only posted this on reddit and bitcoin talk, feel free to share it on Twitter
Z
03:33
Zack
In reply to this message
Got it
SP
03:33
Stepan Panov
In reply to this message
Thank you!
04:56
Deleted Account
I think HitBTC is not trying to scam veo holders. They just need time to adapt to a hard fork/update. I dont think holders would panic if their funds were locked for a few days or even weeks, given some communication with their users. I say leave HitBTC be, and let them deal with their customers and sw updates. If anything assist them as much as possible. I have prior trades on HitBTC with no issues at all. I understand their reputation is bad, but, to quote someone: The fact that they exist proves they are not (just) a scam
Z
04:58
Zack
Yes, I was over reacting before. Hitbtc will probably update soon.
Anyway, now we have a plan to make this easier in the future. We need a light node that exchanges can use.
05:15
Deleted Account
Usually incompetence is more likely than malice. But I like the exchange-friendly light node idea.
EA
06:30
Eric Arsenault
Hi everyone: quick survey on DACs, would love to know your thoughts!! t.me/PollBot?startgroup=f803c3f6c2d90c4dc64f41852ff576ba
06:31
Does that poll work for you guys?
EP
06:50
Evans Pan
no
07:22
Deleted Account
hi guys
07:23
I still have some questions on futarchy and descision market conscept
Z
07:24
Zack
great
07:25
Deleted Account
I already understood that descision market is not just a competition of money. It is a usage of prediction market to determine the best solution
07:25
while participants have a consensus on some strategical value
07:26
e. g. the growth of profitability
Z
07:26
Zack
you already know what futarchy is, that is good
07:28
Deleted Account
however, futarchy means not just DM but a combination of simple voting (people descide which strategical goal is the best) and DM chosing tactical descisions optimal for that goal
Z
07:30
Zack
we do need to have some shared goal.
Some people imply that we will use voting to choose the shared goal when they use the word "futarchy", but amoveo does not have any voting.
07:30
Different people use the word "futarchy" in slightly different ways.
07:32
Deleted Account
in general, futarchy is a rather complex system, more complex then

1. DM
2. PM
3. Direct monetary voting (the winner is determinet by maximal bets)
Z
07:33
Zack
I think discussions about the definitions of words isn't so useful.
If you want to know about Amoveo and its capabilities, this is a great place to ask.
07:33
Deleted Account
Therefore, for educational purposes we must emphasize the difference between all these terms
07:34
and here is my question
07:36
Is there any academic term for that "monetary voting"? I know you believe that this is a bad system, but DM and futarchy can be explained as "upgraded" versions of monetary voting
07:37
therefore some term shoult exist
Z
07:38
Zack
No reason to name something if it isn't a useful mechanism.

I think it's better to start from the concept of forking, and choosing which side of the fork you want to have more money on.
07:39
Nakamoto consensus is a good starting point
07:40
I guess that is more specific for explaining the Oracle
07:40
People have been explaining pm for years. No reason for us to re-explain them.
07:40
Let's just link people to the wealth of knowledge online
07:41
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
We need a name for any system at least in order to prevent misuse of other similar terms
07:43
monetary voting is a more simple system than DM. So it seems strange if nobody discussed it before
07:44
no matter is it bad or good, some term should exist
Z
07:45
Zack
I prefer a more accessible pidgin type language. Instead of expecting my audience to memorize exclusionary code
07:46
Define your terms as needed to explain what you need. Don't force language on people.
07:50
The explainer chooses their words, but the audience chooses the explanation that gets popular.
Language is its own protocol, and none of us can force it.
07:52
Also, discussing what to name something is the kind of topic that is highly vulnerable to bikeshedding, which is a typical failure mode of forums that are focused on technology. We should avoid those kinds of topics here.
07:53
Deleted Account
Of course, describing futarchy for people (and its difference from other systems) I can define terms myself. But it would be better to use existing academic terms if they exist
Z
07:55
Zack
Paul Sztorc's writing is often inspirational to me when I want to know good language to explain something about prediction markets or futarchy. Maybe take a look at http://bitcoinhivemind.com/
07:56
Deleted Account
Ok, i'll do this
Z
07:56
Zack
haha, If you ever take a look at the variable and function names in Amoveo, you would quickly realize that I am not the right person to decide on the name of something.
07:57
Deleted Account
I just ask maybe you know some existing term for this
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
19:17
Sy
In reply to this message
😂😂
Alexis invited Alexis
14 March 2019
Z
00:13
Zack
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIfeVS32ysg
I think he gets a lot of stuff wrong, but it is cool to hear someone talking about how blockchain could impact bureaucracy and community decision making.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
06:54
Deleted Account
hi Zack! I've just understood that I was wrong saying Amoveo futarchy is just a decision market stage without voting stage (introduced by Hanson). Really, it also has an analogue of voting
06:55
If someone doesn't like the idea that all reforms must raise VEO, he can fork the system
06:55
the fork is an analogue of voting
Z
06:56
Zack
there is a market deciding the relative value of the coins on each side of the fork.
It is a market mechanism, not a voting mechanism.
06:57
Deleted Account
but the number of users in each fork is the analogue of voting
06:57
chosing ETH or ETC you vote for one of the forks
06:57
e.g.
MF
06:59
Mr Flintstone
there isn’t anything at stake with a vote
Z
06:59
Zack
people do say that you "vote with your feet" by choosing to change legal jurisdictions.
So there is some history of people using the word "vote" when individuals are free to choose.

In the same sense that you are voting for Kellogg by buying their brand of corn flakes instead of the alternative.
OK
07:00
O K
Yes, people often conflate words in harmful ways
07:00
Deleted Account
yes
Z
07:00
Zack
Discussions about the definitions of words like "vote" aren't so interesting to me. I would rather talk about the technology and it's potentials.
07:06
Deleted Account
please give me link to your text about 4 futarchy markets
07:06
I can't find in at github now (but it was somewhere there)
07:07
Deleted Account
yes thanx
07:26
Deleted Account
(P1 * P3) - (P2 * P4)
07:28
Deleted Account
am I right that P1=(total bets TRUE - total bets FALSE) in question "if "we increase the block reward by 20%", then the market cap of VEO exceeds $5 million" ?
Z
07:29
Zack
no. P1 is the current price in one of the four markets.
07:29
Deleted Account
and P2 is for "if we increase the block reward by 20%", then the market cap of VEO NOT exceeds $5 million"
Z
07:30
Zack
we can't know the total number of bets. it is off chain in the channels. we can't know who is betting. all we can know is the price.
07:31
Deleted Account
not number. the sum of VEO
Z
07:31
Zack
we can ignore the bottom half of the phi coefficient equation, because that is just for scaling. All we care about is whether it is positive or negative
07:31
we can't know how much money is being bet in the channels. all that info is private.
All we can know is the current price to trade right now.
07:34
Deleted Account
Price is (total money for TRUE minus total money for FALSE)?
07:35
I don't dsay we know total money
Z
07:35
Zack
no.
07:37
for example, if there is a football game we are betting on. At the beginning of the game the odds seem even, and many people bet on both sides at 50-50 odds.
Then when the game is almost over, it is clear that one team is much more likely to win.
Still, the total number of bets on each side are about the same, because most people are not changing their bets during the game.
But the odds, and therefore the price, will have shifted. Now it expensive to bet for the team that will obviously win, and it is cheap to bet that the losing team will still manage to win.
07:37
the current price in the market is not determined by the volume of outstanding bets.
07:37
the price is a reflection of the beliefs of the community.
07:40
Deleted Account
ok I understood this
07:54
and how to determine whether to change or not to change miner's reward using these markets? until reward is changed, "football game" can't start
07:54
I still didn't understand this issue
07:56
when we use governance oracle - before or after closing 4 markets?
Z
07:57
Zack
The price of each market is revealing some emergent information about the beliefs of the community.
By using math, if we know the communities beliefs about the likelyhood of the 4 different events, then we can calculate the correlation of the 2 different decisions.

So we can know that increasing the mining reward will be beneficial or harmful to the price.
07:58
the governance oracle is for reporting the results that we have already come to.
It can happen any time after we have already decided.
So it can happen during the 4 markets existence, or after they close. does not matter.
Z
09:01
Zack
the governance oracle can happen during trading in the 4 markets, or after trading closes.
But the oracles controlling the 4 markets wont settle until after the governance oracle is decided first.
Z
10:50
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/erlang-light-node
I made this place where we can build the light node optimized for running on a server.
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Deleted invited Deleted Account
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15 March 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
08:25
Zack
I saw this video about pitching your business to investors vs consumers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQnOBHNKlgs

So I thought I would try and follow his format to write an investor pitch for Amoveo: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/investor_pitch.md

I think @stepanpanov was looking for something like this to be written.
Z
09:35
Zack
https://youtu.be/8wqAw9onTrM

A video about the importance of principles for blockchain communities.
EA
10:29
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Great job with this. Would also be good to include a paragraph on product-market fit strategy.
T
11:43
Topab
Cosmos looks interesting
11:43
Z
11:44
Zack
I wanted to build Amoveo on cosmos, but it is not compatible with our oracle design.
We mix the PoW consensus with the oracle consensus in a way that Cosmos can't handle.
Pineappler invited Pineappler
EA
12:04
Eric Arsenault
Thanks for that Topab
T
12:09
Topab
I like the idea that you do not need to create a token. This is what I like about Amoveo too
T
17:28
Tromp
Hey Zack can options be created on amoveo?
Z
17:30
Zack
In reply to this message
If you use the scalar interface of making channels bets in the light node, it gives you full power to completely customize the margins of your contracts.

You can copy the risk profile of any kind of derivative, even options.
17:33
The customer only cares about the risk profile of a contract, not the specifics of how it is enforced.

Option style enforcement is popular in derivatives trading today because only one of the two parties needs to be trusted. So it works well for large trusted markets with many untrusted customers.
T
17:34
Tromp
Options for altcoins could be extremely cool
17:34
Given that deribit only offers btc options
Z
17:35
Zack
Amoveo doesn't have trust in either direction, so technically our derivatives are all swaps.

But the customer only cares about the risk profile, they don't know or care whether it is swaps or options behind the scenes. It does not make any difference from the users perspective.
T
17:36
Tromp
Going long or short with leverage on amoveo is a lot cheaper than bitmex
Z
17:36
Zack
It's like how the users can't tell if I program in Java or erlang or whatever language.
Similarly, the user can't tell if the financial derivative is an option or a swap.
T
17:37
Tromp
👍🏻👍🏻
AK
19:52
A K
In reply to this message
Why? Opposing party would seek same returns on amoveo
T
19:53
Tromp
In reply to this message
Cheaper fees
AK
19:54
A K
Cost of financing should be market driven
19:54
That's the main cost
19:54
Afair bitmex doesn't charge extra for it, all goes to opposite party
19:54
Or does it?
Z
19:59
Zack
Trustful derivatives platforms have legal risk, and the risk that the operators will run off with the money.
If you consider this risk as an extra fee, then trust-free platforms can be much cheaper.
AK
20:00
A K
I understand this risk, just asking re current veo costs Vs bitmex
20:00
Bitmex users don't price centralisation risk high enough
Z
20:01
Zack
There is an equilibrium with trustful platforms. The lower the price is, the less profitable it is to operate honestly, and the greater the incentive is to steal the money.
It stops the price from getting too low.
20:01
If some users are less rational, they will lose money to more rational users over time.
AK
20:02
A K
In reply to this message
Price times volume
20:02
Not just the price
20:02
Bitmex has crazy volumes
Z
20:07
Zack
doubling the volume of money in the exchange at a time doubles trading volume, and it doubles how much they can steal at once.
So the net effect on their incentive should be zero, right?
MF
20:07
Mr Flintstone
bitmex will take your money if the margining drops too low
20:07
while in veo that doesn’t happen
Z
20:07
Zack
that is a very big difference
20:08
especially with how volatile crypto can be
20:08
the price can drop 10x for an hour and come right back up.
MF
20:08
Mr Flintstone
your margin doesn’t even need to go to 0 in bitmex as well, they’ll liquidate you well before 0
Z
20:09
Zack
In Amoveo people can make bets directly with each other, so they are completely symmetric.
There are no edge cases where the house always wins, because there is no house.
AK
20:18
A K
In reply to this message
not steal though
Z
20:20
Zack
If there are edge cases where the exchange takes all the money, that makes the expected cost of using the service higher.
It is better to use a service like Amoveo where customers can directly bet against each other, and there is no middle-man who will take all the money in an edge case.
SS
20:28
Spike Spiegel
In reply to this message
There is no margin call in veo?
Z
20:28
Zack
If you and I each lock 10 veo into a channel, then the margins are when you get all 20 veo and I get 0, or when I get all 20 and you get 0.
20:29
But it doesn't matter if the price temporarily crosses the margin. Only the final price when the oracle resolves matters.
SS
20:30
Spike Spiegel
this is serious advantage over using bitrekt - flash crash isn't that much a risk
Z
20:30
Zack
yes, it is a big difference
20:32
Deleted Account
Margin call is there for a reason. Not having it just dumps the disadvantage over to the other party. The advantage of not having it is simplicity. The sole huge disadvantage of not havibg it is not having the ability to trade two equal positions agaibst eachother
EP
20:33
Evans Pan
it doesn make to much sense to compare veo to bitmex. Veo is 100 miles behind Bitmex's trading capability.
KL
20:34
Karlis L
In reply to this message
So in a similar way in the case with Stablecoin contract, there are price range limits where it works, and beyond which the Stablecoin contract stops to hedge, right? Can the contract be somehow updated? Can the "seller" somehow inject more VEO into the contract to increase the limits in case of large price moves?
EP
20:34
Evans Pan
And for the fee, you dont pay any fee if you just trade as a maker, you make fees for maker order.
Z
20:35
Zack
In reply to this message
What is the advantage of margin calls?

So a "margin call" means that if the price of your contract hits a margin, that the contract is instantly canceled and the server takes all the money no matter what the price is in the future. right? or maybe I am misunderstanding something?
20:38
In reply to this message
The UX works better for making new contracts instead of updating old ones, but updating existing bets, or adding money to them is something the tech supports, as long as there is already money in the channel available to do that.
You can't add money to an existing channel, but you can open an additional channel and make more bets in it.
20:39
In reply to this message
yes, there are margins on the stablecoin contract. by default they are price increasing 2x or decreasing 2x, but you can customize them to your needs.
KL
20:44
Karlis L
yes, but as much as i have experimented on paper - increasing the margins (good for the buyers) required a lot more locked VEO from the seller (bad for the seller). but i guess that is balanced out by the Derivatives Payment?
Z
20:45
Zack
There are margins on both sides. It is a symmetric contract.
20:46
if you want the other person to lock up more in the margin, then you need to pay a bigger premium.

If you both want bigger margins, then the premiums can cancel out.
KL
20:47
Karlis L
ok, thanks
Z
20:48
Zack
the stablecoin interface has the tool for making a payment to cancel out any imbalance yes.
the scalar interface gives you complete control of the margins as well as the ability to combine it with payments.
A
20:51
Andrew
Where i can buy veo, except hitbtc?
Z
20:51
Zack
you can't buy on hitbtc
20:51
there is no withdraw
AK
20:52
A K
qtrade.io a1.exchange graviex bitibu
Z
20:52
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo there is lots of information here
AK
20:52
A K
OTC channel in discord
Z
20:52
Zack
I think people have said bad things about graviex and bitibu
20:53
It is probably best not to use those.
A
20:55
Andrew
Thx
MF
21:24
Mr Flintstone
anything outside initial margin is trusted
21:24
you can’t depend on someone to deposit more margin into the contract necessarily
21:25
with some financial engineering it’s very similar to the margined instruments ppl are familiar with
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
23:51
Deleted Account
what's with all the spam here lately
Z
23:56
Zack
every time we get listed on a new exchange or whatever, then a link to this telegram appears on a new web page, so we get a new batch of these spam bots.
16 March 2019
00:24
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
The reason we have margin calls (and literally everyone offering leverage has this) is that when the value of what you own is less than the value if you resolve your leverage position, the one selling the position. If they cant, the person who is now in negative (or close to) liquidity will surely choose to gamble for a turn in price as they cant loose more money. If this happened, he would have got the money for free
00:24
Todays hopeless explanation, sorry
00:26
If the deal is resolved on a specific date you dont need margin calls, but once you want to trade continuously, I dont see how you can do without
EP
00:49
Evans Pan
veo is not leveraged trading, why need margin?
EA
01:14
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
👍
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Z
03:55
Zack
In reply to this message
Amoveo contracts always have an expiration.
03:56
In reply to this message
Amoveo smart contracts can be programmed to use any leverage.
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17 March 2019
03:39
Deleted Account
Leveraged trading is just one use of Amoveo
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Z
06:47
Zack
Alice wants to make an offer for a channel with a contract so that anyone can accept.
Alice needs to provide a signature over the contract.

Our old signature library needed to have both pubkeys inside the thing being signed in particular locations. That is no longer an option, because Alice needs to sign the contract before she knows who the other party will be.

Our old way of making channels signed directly over the contract, now we need to sign over the hash instead.

I am able to write a working signature system in erlang, and in javascript, but I am having difficulty making them compatible.
I think we should keep delaying this hard update until we can get javascript compatible, this way we still have the option of adjusting the erlang version to make the javascript version easier to write.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
10:09
Deleted Account
Hello, could an admin contact me in chat please? I have a marketing proposal.
OK
10:10
O K
We don't have any money
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T
17:15
Tromp
In reply to this message
Just buy some, learn about the project and make the decision by yourself if you wish to support it
[
18:52
[Riki]
In reply to this message
Lmao
18:52
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
292.4 KB
M
18:54
Minieep21
In reply to this message
You can setup a DAC to get paid.
J
20:37
Joshua
In reply to this message
Can you send me the link to the js file, I'll take a look maybe I could help a bit :) no promises tho
J
20:40
Joshua
Thx
EP
21:04
Evans Pan
Hitbtc recovered
Z
21:06
Zack
it says they are still not allowing withdraws.
EP
21:06
Evans Pan
trading resumed
Z
21:07
Zack
We canceled the update. it never got activated.
Both the old and new versions of the code are currently valid for verifying blocks.
There is no reason HitBTC shouldn't allow withdraws at this time, I am becoming doubtful they will ever allow withdraws.
21:08
They aren't asking me questions. There is zero evidence that they are putting effort into this.
21:08
There is no status update saying they will start working on it at some point in the future.
21:09
Maybe they lost their private key.
EP
21:10
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
This is hitbtc style. they are very slow.
21:11
and you know many emails they receive everyday for various requests?
21:14
withdraw is always a problem for many coins and many users on Hitbtc platform. But by saying that, they do resolve all issues in the end. It took me 1 month to get my btc withdraw last time.
21:14
simply they are too busy.
Z
21:16
Zack
Why would they ever stop being busy?
If they only have time to think about bitcoin once per month, and bitcoin is worth hundreds of thousands of times more than veo, it could be centuries until they find time to fix amoveo withdraws.
21:17
HitBTC is extremely unsupportive for any kind of changes and they downright ignore devs a lot. I am not sure how they manage to get away with all the bs up to this point, being one of the biggest exchanges.
EP
21:19
Evans Pan
People get used to it. At least, hitbtc didnt run away or take your money off. They are just slow.
21:22
In reply to this message
We can bet on Amoveo, I bet hitbtc will resolve the issue in.....one month time.
Z
21:23
Zack
being slow is one way to steal money.
They have insider knowledge about when they will stop delays, and when they will cause delays.

This is a way of stealing isn't exactly illegal, because they can pretend that the delays are due to inability instead of due to malicious intent.
21:23
It is much better to use slowness to steal 10% of dozens of projects every month, instead of outright stealing the money just once, and then getting shut down.
EP
21:26
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
They are still standing well among thousands exchanges. There are better exchanges, but they dont offer free listing for veo. I think overall, hitbtc listing is very positive for Amoveo, please calm down. Everything will be ok.
Z
21:27
Zack
We need to make atomic swaps soon so people will stop using exchanges.
Z
22:04
Zack
I got the light node able to form the new kind of channels. Now I am working on closing the new kind of channels.
18 March 2019
EP
02:50
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
Why the update was cancalled?
Z
02:51
Zack
we found a security issue with the new channels.
02:51
it has already been fixed.
There is going to be a little more review before we schedule the hard fork to make the new channels active again.
Z
12:39
Zack
In reply to this message
What spam?
Is it invisible to me, or is it already gone?
OK
12:42
O K
It's gone now. The YouTube link. I had replied to it. I cleaned up some spam above it but for whatever reason that one I couldn't.
Z
12:43
Zack
ok. well thanks for the help with spam. Someone has been getting them before I can lately.
OK
12:44
O K
No problem. Sometimes I do, but often I'm busy and someone else takes care of it.
OK
12:54
O K
It would be cool to do this in amoveo, but would require so many markets and a lot of work to tie them together.
12:54
US elections are popular
Z
12:55
Zack
Mr Flinestone's suggestion seemed pretty simple.

Just copy the odds of whatever popular markets, and keep letting people bet with you using the P2P tool.
Mr. C invited Mr. C
Z
12:55
Zack
the other popular trading markets online already calculated the odds and spread, so copying them should be profitable on average
Z
13:35
Zack
For otc_finisher, I am thinking we should stop using the encrypted messaging tool, and instead expect the user to copy paste some data and email it to their peer, or send it by a PM in a forum or whatever.

The messager tool is no longer used for any other steps, and I think it is causing more pain than how much utility we can get out of it in the last step.
Ill keep an old version of otc_finisher around for reference, in case we decide to go back to that design.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
17:09
Deleted Account
Hi friends - your project's great, keep it up! It'd be huge if an admin or project member would reach out to me as I'm a user for a wallet that could list your coins there.
Ivan Telia invited Ivan Telia
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
17:33
Sy
In reply to this message
we arent paying any listing fees
17:42
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
there are no listing fees, only integration fees
M
17:43
Minieep21
then not possible
17:43
if you want to get paid, set up a DAC. If community decides it will increase the value of VEO, you will get paid to integrate/list it.
EP
17:50
Evans Pan
17:51
What a free gift to Amoveo!
AK
17:56
A K
🤔
S
17:57
Sy
In reply to this message
the magic word is fee, so no thanks
AK
18:07
A K
wtf
18:07
maybe it's time to connect some housekeeping spam fighting bot
18:34
Deleted Account
when will veo have semi-custodial contracts??
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
20:46
Zack
In reply to this message
No one can understand what you are asking.
20:48
Deleted Account
lol. does it make sense for oracle to say how money in contract should be divided rather than report what happened in real world/
Z
21:09
Zack
In reply to this message
A contract only exists for the 2 participants.
They can't prove the existence of the contract to anyone else.
21:22
Deleted Account
Would it make sense to have a account type that represents some service (like bitmex or poker site or whatever...). People would "deposit" to this account in order to start using the service (just send veo to it). The service would operate centrally on some website. The site would publicly publish balances periodically so in case of problems root of withdrawal tree could be just posted on chain and people could get their money. Oracle would be used to choose correct withdrawal tree. Also just normal withdrawals would work like this... xD
21:24
improve the tried and true deposit/withdrawal pattern of crypto space xD
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
21:28
Zack
Amoveo off-chain markets are a little like this.
We use hashlocking to connect many channels together. So no one has to trust the central party running the market server.

Still, the oracle only reports on the final price of the asset, or the winner on the football game or whatever. The oracle does not decide on the final state of the smart contract.
Instead, the smart contract itself is programmatically run to determine it's final state.

It is better to use the smart contract to determine the outcome of a smart contract, instead of giving the oracle reporters authority of a bunch of money that they don't know anything about.

The oracle reports can only report on facts that are easy to look up. There is no way for the oracle reporters to know anything about the current or past state of the smart contracts. So it doesn't make sense for them to have any control over the outcome of smart contracts.

The whole point of a smart contract is so that no human has to make the decision. It automatically knows where the money is supposed to go based on how it was programmed. And all the participants are able to look at the programming before they sign, so they can know exactly what they are signing up for.
21:32
In reply to this message
poker on Amoveo would probably be terrible.

All blockchain poker is bad because if there are more than 2 players, it is vulnerable to sybil attacks. Someone will sign up for the same game twice, and look at 2 hands of cards at once. Giving them a large statistical advantage.

Amoveo smart contracts can't be aware of time periods shorter than a block, so we can't prevent people from playing super slowly to waste your time.

Overall, poker on Amoveo would be awful.

Amoveo is a great platform for betting on someone else's poker game. especially games being live-streamed. You can change your bets in real time, while they are playing the game.
21:33
Deleted Account
yea i just ment just a stupid box with some vague natural language description of what it rperesents and amoveo oracle to decide withdrawals out of it
21:33
up to service provider to provide public information about balances
Z
21:36
Zack
In reply to this message
the oracle does support vague natural language questions, but it has to be something that oracle reporters can easily look up.

You can ask the oracle who won a football game, or the price of BTC. You can't ask the oracle anything about any smart contract in any channel. You can't ask the oracle how many VEO Zack has deposited into Qtrade.
21:40
Deleted Account
if qtrade published every trade the balances would be public
21:40
(thinking stupid out loud)
21:41
sidechains controlled by amoveo oracle
Z
21:41
Zack
In reply to this message
if the oracle blindly distributes veo based off of trusted data that qtrade posts on their web page, then qtrade could easily lie and steal all the veo.

If you are going to trust qtrade not to steal anyway, then the oracle isn't adding anything to the situation.
21:41
Deleted Account
the messages to qtrade would be signed by same key u deposited
Z
21:42
Zack
why would signing your messages to qtrade matter for anything?
21:43
Deleted Account
qtrade could not lie what messages you sent?
Z
21:43
Zack
they could censor some messages, and generate fake messages with valid signatures.
21:44
Deleted Account
yea
21:44
fake messages you mean accept your message later
Z
21:44
Zack
Each oracle is creating 1 bit of information for the blockchain.

How many bits of information do you need to specify all of the trading done on qtrade in the last week?
21:47
1 trade specifies 2 prices. each price is 32 bits.
So we would need 64 oracles per trade.
Each oracle has a tx fee that gets burned of around $1.

So we are talking about a $64 trading fee.

And even then it would not work, because qtrade would just hide some trading data, and not show it to the oracle. It would lie and report other trading data that didn't really happen. So qtrade would still be centralized and trusted to hold your veo.
21:48
In reply to this message
no. I mean they would generate an address, and use it to sign trades that never really happened.
21:50
If you want to have a trust free exchange, the correct way to build something like that: we need a tool for atomic swapping BTC for synthetic BTC on Amoveo.

If we combine this tool with our existing tools for trading VEO and synthetic BTC, then we will have a trust free way of changing VEO for BTC.
21:52
It is not so easy to directly atomic swap BTC for VEO because of the free option problem.
But swapping VEO for synthetic BTC on Amoveo is possible. They both support smart contracts, so we can use a market to make this trade happen at a fair price. it solves the free option problem.

Then swapping synthetic BTC for BTC is secure from the free option problem because they stay the same value. There is no exchange rate risk, so there is no free options.
MF
21:53
Mr Flintstone
well there is the risk of veousd falling off a cliff
21:53
which devalues the synthetic btc
21:54
but it is a much smaller free option surface
Z
21:54
Zack
if the price is near to the margins, it is less secure to do this sort of thing.
If the price is far from the margins, and the lifetime of the contract is short, then it should be safe enough.
MF
21:55
Mr Flintstone
indistinguishably safe from noise
21:55
likely
21:57
Deleted Account
ok thx, looks like there is no simple solution for exit scams xD
21:59
or blockchain is solution to exit scam?!
Z
22:00
Zack
There are many different kinds of exit scams.
There is no one-size-fits-all alternative to trust.
Different problems have different solutions.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
22:55
Deleted Account
Hi
M
22:59
Minieep21
Hi
Deleted invited Deleted Account
SS
23:22
Spike Spiegel
What's the price for stablecoin in veo?
23:23
Using MKR CDP costs 3.5%
Compound: ~10%
Z
23:24
Zack
In reply to this message
0. free.

stablecoin in Amoveo is a contract between 2 individuals. 100% of the money in that contract ends up going to the 2 individuals.

There is a flat fee for making a channel, but once the channel exists you can do as many contracts in it as you want for free.
SS
23:26
Spike Spiegel
I mean what are current available rates ( if there is marketplace for such thing)
If I want $100 worth of stablecoin I have to provide $150+ worth of ETH and pay 3.5% on that $100

Can you provide similar example for VEO with explicit margins?
Z
23:29
Zack
I charged 5% for a 1 month stablecoin contract I sold to sourcex a couple weeks ago.
Veo is very volatile, I bet when the price is low, you can probably buy stablecoins for a negative fee.
People will pay you for the privilege to hold your veo risk.
23:29
when the price of veo is high, then the price of stablecoins goes higher as well.
SS
23:30
Spike Spiegel
So per annum is 79%
Z
23:30
Zack
for the contract I did with sourcex, yes. But that is just one contract.
23:31
oh, I said it backwards.
I paid sourcex 5% to buy the stablecoins from me
23:31
I paid 5% for the privilege of having double veo risk
SS
23:32
Spike Spiegel
How efficient is market discovery for stablecoins?
If I want to borrow DAI I can just use compound and all people are borrowing and lending with the same rate.
It would be nice to see multiple offers / comparison site for such thing
Z
23:32
Zack
obviously he wouldn't pay 5% for this. he could sell veo and hold btc or usd.
23:34
In reply to this message
We will see in a couple weeks when the hard update is activated.
Currently it is annoying to use the stablecoin tool because you have to be online at the same time as your partner, and you have to wait confirmations.

After this update, you can publish an offer for a stablecoin contract, and anyone can accept your offer while you are offline. And after this update, you will never have to wait for confirmations. You can make smart contracts as fast as you want.
23:35
We did a lot of stablecoin testing for about a week, but once we realized that confirmations and being online were such big issues, and that they are fixable issues, we stopped doing much testing until this is fixed.
SS
23:36
Spike Spiegel
For me it seems that VEO may work great in trading pit - where people are are literally shouting to each other and doing OTC trading all the time.
Z
23:37
Zack
haha, that would be cool.
SS
23:37
Spike Spiegel
I wonder how to use VEO for allowing people to speculate on altcoin prices with high leverage - maybe even doing some binary options
23:38
Like Binance but with high leverage
Z
23:38
Zack
In reply to this message
you can set the leverage as one of the options when making the smart contract.
If you set the leverage high enough, it acts as a binary option at a single price, and you have control over which price matters.
23:40
In reply to this message
a trading pit where anyone can make up a new question to start gambling on at any time.
That could get pretty hectic.
Hopefully they would still wear those colorful jerseys.
23:42
Im thinking of making a website where you can pay a small fee to submit a contract offer.
The website analyzes your contract offer, and makes the information about the contract easy for other people to view.
It puts it into a search tool, so you can easily search what contract offers are available.
And it organizes them by price, sort of like an order book.
SS
23:44
Spike Spiegel
If I don't see trading activity I don't see how I can trade so I don't trade - trading pit is stimulating trading as people are seeing activity and market moving in real time.

Search tool for different contracts available ordered by parameters + feed with activity would be appreciated both as real utility and marketing tool
23:44
It's like showing what people bought recently on e-commerce website
MF
23:44
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
might be easier to just make it free then profit off of ads imo
Z
23:45
Zack
In reply to this message
security to prevent spam is hard.
charging a small fee makes it easy.

I want to build the first version as fast as possible, I don't have time to learn the art of spam prevention.
23:46
I guess I could link to a facebook identity, and then have a limit on number of trades per facebook account.

I just don't have experience with that sort of programming.
23:47
but it will be open source, so if someone else does have these skills, they can update my work to do that.
MF
23:50
Mr Flintstone
right, it is for spam prevention
23:50
I feel like a moderated telegram channel would work fine at first
23:51
kind of like a trading pit as Spike talked about
Z
23:51
Zack
yes, how about #trading in discord to start.
SS
23:51
Spike Spiegel
Because if I can earn money via offering stablecoin (and taking long position) I could sell a little veo and get a yield
23:52
OTC markets without clearing are dysfunctional - and that's why VEO price skyrocketed before exchanges were created.

Clearing and having similar rates for all participants is important feature of the market
Z
23:55
Zack
Besides the P2P derivatives tool, Amoveo also supports a market tool where everyone makes a channel with the same central market operator.
Trades are matched in single price batches.

The current drawback of the central market version is that the market operator needs to lock up a lot of veo to enforce the contracts, so he needs to charge fees to make up for this cost.

Our long-term goal is that bets should first be formed in these markets, and then we can trustlessly move the bet to a direct P2P channel path, which recovers the server's liquidity.

This would give us the best features of both trading strategies at the same time.
MF
23:59
Mr Flintstone
with respect to price discovery, if someone is using amoveo to convert their veo into amazon shares, they know the price of amazon shares already in usd. there isn’t much room for participants to be agreeing to very different prices on these shares
23:59
even if the transactions are happening OTC
19 March 2019
Z
00:00
Zack
In reply to this message
oh, good point.
So we really can't draw parallels between the old veo-btc market and the new derivatives markets.
MF
00:03
Mr Flintstone
if people are trading binary options on weird stuff I can definitely agree that a market is better than OTC
00:03
but even if they’re trading sports gambling odds, the pricing is publicly available
Z
00:03
Zack
In reply to this message
right. if there is no existing market to look up the price, then we will run into this problem.
SP
01:07
Stepan Panov
A
Amoveo News 19.03.2019 01:06:59
The second weekly edition of our newsletter, covering everything that happened around Amoveo over the past week. HitBTC trading, a community survey about DACs, hard update, a little teaser about soon-to-be-announced desktop wallets and some other things. Read it in full here:

https://amoveo.substack.com/p/2-desktop-wallet-coming-soon
J
01:15
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
In reply to this message
🙏🏻👍🏻
SS
01:18
Spike Spiegel
Q: What's the price for stablecoin in VEO?
A: 0. free.

There is little more nuance to it
SP
01:22
Stepan Panov
In reply to this message
Of course, I've read your conversation. It's good answer to grab someone's attention and find out more about it.
I
01:24
Instinct
In reply to this message
Desktop wallet soon 👀🔥
Z
03:31
Zack
we have an #off-topic channel on discord
Z
08:18
Zack
It would be so cool if we could write a smart contract on Amoveo that could watch a channel on Bitcoin Hivemind, and enforce the rules of nonces on the bitcoin hivemind channel without actually updating the nonce on the bitcoin hivemind side.

It would involve writing a chalang contract to be small bitcoin hivemind light node to verify some headers, and a merkel proof of the channel's final state from hivemind.

This tool would allow people to use bitcoin hivemind channels with real bitcoin to make bets on the outcome of the bitcoin hivemind oracle, without paying any trading fees.
It would be a parasite contract, and it would change the nash equilibrium so that bitcoin hivemind would stop being secure. The reporters would have an incentive to make the outcome of an oracle a lie so they can steal all the money from the market.

So it would be a cool hack that can cause a competing oracle blockchain to fail, but since the reporters are the ones doing the stealing, it is all their fault.
You aren't committing any crime by writing this hack, or by using this hack to gamble for free. The hivemind reporters are the ones who stole money.
08:27
I imagine a future where blockchains try to create economic exploits to syphon value from each other.

If people spend fees on Amoveo to earn money from another blockchain, this is good for Amoveo.

This is why it was important that our oracle isn't just secure when you look at our blockchain in isolation.
Unlike many of our competitors, Amoveo's oracle is secure against parasite contracts on competing blockchains.
The standard way of betting in Amoveo is to not pay any fee to the oracle reporters. So a standard Amoveo bet is already equivalent to what would be a parasite contract in Bitcoin Hivemind or Augur.

So if someone built a generalized parasite contract that worked against any oracle blockchain, that would not harm Amoveo at all. It would be a boost to the scalability of our network, acting as a sort of side-chain to Amoveo.

The generalized parasite contract would destroy Augur and Bitcoin Hivemind, because without the trading fees being paid to oracle reporters, their oracles break.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
09:37
Zack
Lets say you want to buy up houses and rent them out as a business.
If you are white, then you will get low interest rate mortgages on all the houses you need. So for the same starting capital, you can rent out 3x more houses as a black person trying to run the same business.
So the black person would need to charge 3x more in rent, just to break even with the white person's profit.

This is the power of leverage. This is how banks are used to maintain the power of the upper class.

Business competition in the sense of making a better product doesn't matter in many industries today.
Whoever can get the best leverage from the bank can easily out-compete everyone else.

The fiat banking system is harmful to almost everyone who lives under it. Not just people getting killed in wars.
09:45
otc finisher
* early close, acc1 first [x]
* early close, acc2 first [x]
* close on time, acc1 first []
* close on time, acc2 first []
* solo close timeout acc1 []
* solo close timeout acc2 []
* solo close acc1 slash timeout acc2 []
* solo close acc2 slash timeout acc1 []


I have to test so many different ways of closing the channel in otc_finisher.
6 more ways to test.
09:47
I wonder if I should do all 8 again with scalar next, or just assume that since binary passes the rest will pass too.
M⛏
12:08
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
You know what they say about making assumptions 😉. Better safe than sorry
13:44
Deleted Account
Breaking Bitcoin Hivemind is ok in my view if the design is broken
13:44
Better to break it early and let them fix the design
13:45
Though better just to prove its broken rather than let anyone exploit it imho
Gary invited Gary
S
17:16
SL
YoBit advert 🤦‍♂
Z
18:09
Zack
In reply to this message
I shared it on Twitter
Deleted invited Deleted Account
SP
18:45
Stepan Panov
In reply to this message
Thank you!
Dan invited Dan
D
19:06
Dan
Hello, new here
Z
19:12
Zack
In reply to this message
Hi. I sent a DM.
WL
19:16
Wang Lion
what is veo price?
WL
19:17
Wang Lion
ok ~thank you
🥀 invited 🥀
?
21:47
🥀
Hello may i talk to the admin?
S
21:48
Sy
In reply to this message
let me quote zack "we arent paying any fees"
?
21:49
🥀
In reply to this message
Dont need fees.
S
22:00
Sy
then message Zack
ŽM
22:04
Živojin Mirić
how can I ask Oracle if this is based on romantic interest?
22:04
Z
22:08
Zack
In reply to this message
haha
I am giving a lot of attention to anyone with a background in trading derivatives or risk management. People with these backgrounds have a lot of good ideas for Amoveo.
ŽM
22:10
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
Good job! I wasn't informed about Isabellas background, I am glad that people with like her are showing interest for Amoveo!
EA
22:27
Eric Arsenault
😂😂😂
ŽM
22:28
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
hush man
20 March 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
DV
04:14
Denis Voskvitsov
DV
Denis Voskvitsov 20.03.2019 04:14:00
I'm happy to present the first release of Amoveo desktop wallets!

— Windows: https://myveowallet.com/desktop/win/latest (portable EXE)
— OS X: https://myveowallet.com/desktop/osx/latest (PKG)
— Linux: https://myveowallet.com/desktop/linux/latest (AppImage)

Wallets support basic features at the moment, just like https://myveowallet.com, you can receive, spend and hold your VEO.
Every private key is stored encrypted in local user directory.

In the next few releases we're going to polish UI/UX a bit, enable Ledger integration and support working with channels.

Source code is available at https://github.com/amoveo-project/js-web-wallet/

PLEASE NOTE: OS X and Windows binaries aren't signed yet, so you'll see weird message from OS, but it's ok for now and will be fixed soon.
DV
04:14
Denis Voskvitsov
also we've created a group @amoveo_wallet as a place where you can ask your questions about our wallets or report any issue with them.
Z
04:21
Zack
In reply to this message
That is great
I
04:26
Instinct
😁 looking forward to ledger integration!
EA
04:51
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
WOW, great job!
S
05:20
Sebsebzen
Amazing job!
[
05:32
[Riki]
In reply to this message
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
AK
05:41
Alex K
In reply to this message
💪💪💪
ŽM
05:51
Živojin Mirić
Wooooooooow this is better news than Zack's romantic interest today!! Good job guys!
DV
05:53
Denis Voskvitsov
both things are important :-)
[
05:54
[Riki]
98 problems but the woman and wallet aint one
S
06:13
Sebsebzen
Zack has gf?
06:14
Female fans haha
SP
06:20
Stepan Panov
In reply to this message
What a day!
ŽM
06:22
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
ZOMG
M⛏
06:47
Moe ⛏
@potat_o check DM or discord please
OK
06:48
O K
Gotcha, thanks
Z
08:53
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/tree/channelOffers
I made a version of the light node that works with the new channels.
After the next hard update activates, this will be the light node.
T
10:41
Topab
Could this happen in Amoveo and how could this be avoided? https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/b30wdj/augur_is_being_gamed/
EA
10:50
Eric Arsenault
😮
10:50
awesome find
MF
10:54
Mr Flintstone
you can mitigate this with standardized and unambiguous language for run of the mill derivatives
10:58
I don’t think forks with zero tolerance for interpretation of oracle language will be very valuable as well
11:00
I’d be interested to see which augur oracles are finalizing based on obvious technicalities
T
11:00
Topab
In reply to this message
But you can just simple not follow it, who is going to check on this being implemented?
MF
11:01
Mr Flintstone
don’t have your money depend on a bad oracle
11:01
it is up to you as the user which oracles you use
11:05
Afair the House of Representatives question finalized in the spirit of the oracle question rather than the technicality
11:16
oh, one other thing is that I don’t think you can bet on invalid as an outcome in augur?
11:16
like, if the oracle finalized as invalid, the money is just split between the outcomes equally
11:17
so you can’t know the probability of an augur market finalizing as invalid prior to betting in it
AK
11:22
A K
There will be invalid shares traded in V2, so you would be able to hedge
11:23
And estimate chances of it closing as incorrect from the price of the shares, yep
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
16:48
Zack
In reply to this message
This problem happens in augur because reporters have an obligation to participate in markets.
In amoveo, no one has an obligation. So if an Oracle is confusing, reporters aren't punished for refusing to report.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
21 March 2019
EA
01:20
Eric Arsenault
Hi everyone, we've had some great responses for the DAC survey, if you haven't checked it out, please do! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd_NcJ7QfRREJfsylmwzGoKwZ4zYaXi5vaWAbH-ZHMSwoxQig/viewform?usp=sf_link
01:21
I will share the results to the group by end of weekend...
Tv
01:28
Tarrence van As
01:29
"This paper presents the Rainbow Network, a design for an off-chain non-custodial exchange and payment network supporting any liquid asset. The Rainbow Network allows a user to trade, lend, borrow, send, and receive any liquid asset, entirely off-chain, while having only one on-chain payment channel collateralized by a single asset. The network is composed of Rainbow channels, a variant of payment channels where settlement balances are computed based on the current prices of other assets."
A
01:36
Alexis
Hello all
Why the volume is so low?
EA
01:37
Eric Arsenault
everyone is holding since it will go to the moon
A
01:40
Alexis
No seriously,its the only shade thing i find about this coin
T
01:42
Tromp
No marketing yet until there is product market fit
01:43
Amoveo is in development, when the product is better and UI easier to use we as a community can figure out how we approach marketing
I
01:44
Instinct
In reply to this message
Small exchanges, not many know of it yet but as you can see many are holding & not willing to sell at these prices
T
01:44
Tromp
Yeah it has a lot of potential and the people who know about it and understand what it could become think it is valued a lot higher than what it is now
01:45
If you buy now, you buy near the low in usd so not a bad deal to hold for a couple of years
A
01:45
Alexis
Thanks all
01:46
I was seeking for a alternative for gnosis i think i just find it
T
01:47
Tromp
Welcome 🍺
I
01:49
Instinct
In reply to this message
01:49
Lots of good docs on his github
I
02:17
Instinct
In reply to this message
He follows Zack on twitter, seems to have taken ideas imo
Tv
02:25
Tarrence van As
Hard to believe he has never come across Zack's work
EA
03:13
Eric Arsenault
yeah really
Z
03:14
Zack
Looks like he only wanted to reference ethereum projects, even though amoveo already implements everything from his rainbow net paper.
EA
03:14
Eric Arsenault
Jesus
03:15
This is outright fraud. the war is on guys.
03:20
Z
03:23
Zack
It would have been nice of him to reference ideas he took from amoveo, but this is not theft.
We don't own ideas in any sense. None of us has a patent.
03:25
Anyway, very few pieces of amoveo were invented by people in this community.
A lot of it is taken from the bitcoin hivemind project, from ethereum, and from bitcoin.
03:26
If more people are waking up to the power of amoveo channels, this means it will be even easier to show them how great amoveo is.
EA
03:27
Eric Arsenault
true
MF
03:33
Mr Flintstone
dan Robinson seems like a decent guy from twitter, I doubt he would have intentionally snubbed veo
03:33
i didn’t know he was working on this though, which is cool
A
03:35
Alexis
Do there will be a staking system in the futur ?
Z
03:36
Zack
In reply to this message
If you make a bet, you are putting money at stake.
Amoveo already has betting.
So in that sense, we already have a staking system.
I'm not sure if that answers your question.
A
03:37
Alexis
Yeah thats right
03:37
Thanks
D
04:00
Desab
I hold chain link and just found out about amoveo.
04:00
What are the main differences between the two?
Z
04:02
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
This is a good place to learn about Amoveo.
If you have any specific questions about the technology, I can answer them here.
Unfortunately, I don't remember all the details of chainlink's design off the top of my head.
04:03
D
04:03
Desab
Yeah I've read that a couple times over
04:03
You had one tweet I saw about chain link but that's all I could find
Z
04:10
Zack
It looks like Chainlink is using a voting system as their oracle.
There are multiple oracle reporters, and if more than a certain number agree on the outcome of a bet, then that causes the smart contract to move the funds.

Voting systems like this are not cryptoeconomically secure.

Since it is not cryptoeconomically secure, there is no reason to use a blockchain.
Chainlink might as well be a normal centralized website like intrade.
D
04:11
Desab
Damn ok
04:11
Thanks
04:11
So like the voters could collude to rig outcomes their way
Z
04:13
Zack
https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/01/28/p-epsilon-attack/

voting tends to suffer from tragedy of the commons, which makes it cheap to bribe the voters and force the outcome.
D
04:13
Desab
👍
04:14
Ah I see
[
04:21
[Riki]
In reply to this message
what was your contribution to that article / attack type?
Z
04:29
Zack
In reply to this message
Hmm... it was a few years ago.
I was studying oracle mechanisms, and I convinced Vitalik to come onto the truthcoin forum and debate with Paul Sztorc about how secure truthcoin's design was at that time.
04:32
http://forum.bitcoinhivemind.com/index.php/topic,173.0.html
Here, you can read our conversations from back then
04:38
I realized that oracles are just another kind of consensus mechanism, like POW or POS.
That let me take ideas from the consensus mechanism world, and apply them to oracles.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
AK
05:48
A K
Hive OS – The Ultimate Mining Platform
https://hiveos.farm/statistics
05:49
Apparently, 0.5% of hiveos GPU users mine veo