22:13
Mr Flintstone
so it’s probably too late
23:05
Tromp
Hitbtc might be a bunch of asian gamblers 😂
01:09
Dan
Getting ready for Monday GOT
01:12
What’s hitbtc?? I need an answer
01:12
Stepan Panov
HitBTC is an exchange
04:09
Zack
Some blockchain is going to launch with 95% of the block reward being a developer fee.
Wouldn't that cause problems?
05:20
Spike Spiegel
no, as long its spent in productive way
11:04
Phil Bonello
Zack is this trust theory stuff original? It's a very interesting breakdown
11:05
Zack
it is original
12:01
Phil Bonello
This Space Fund post by Hanson is great but it doesn't address the initial problem of funding right? The initial funding is something that could be administered througha DAC and then the subsequent incentives through Hanson's proposal.
12:06
Eric Arsenault
Initial funding would be donations in his post
12:07
What are you imagining for DAC structure to accomplish this?
12:07
Zack
DAC is based on some goal, and the space fund is based on a goal too. I don't see how we could combine them.
Maybe if DAC only succeeds if we raise more than some minimum threshold
12:08
if the fund doesn't have $1 million by date D1, then we give everyone a refund plus interest. Otherwise we continue with a normal Hanson space fund.
12:09
it's pretty difficult to program awareness of how much money has been raised into an amoveo channel.
12:09
Eric Arsenault
I’m not quite clear on this part : “That is, for each proposal, on a particular unique pre-announced date, market speculators may trade LNYD assets for cash, in trades that are called off if (or if not) this proposal is approved. “
12:10
Why on a pre-announced date?
12:11
Zack
its a different way of formulating the trick we do where you can bet on any of the 4 outcomes
12:11
and we measure the correlation
12:11
Eric Arsenault
Oh I see
12:11
It leads to same result
12:11
So we could just use futarchy type bets for this
12:13
Zack
yeah. for ours the 4 possibilities are:
1) you win
2) you lose
3) you lose
4) you lose
For him, there are more possibilities.
1) you win
2) you lose
3) bet is undone
4) bet is undone
you can trade either kind of derivative, and still get all the same information.
12:14
Eric Arsenault
For ours: can you choose to only bet in one outcome? Or do you need to bet in all 4?
12:14
Zack
Maybe his formulation is better if you are restricted to using binary markets.
12:15
there are 4 ways of betting in ours, and I think up to 8 ways of betting in his, but I think they only expose 4 to avoid arbitrage problems?
Any risk profile possible in one should also be possible in the other.
12:16
Eric Arsenault
But do you NEED to bet in all 4 in Amoveo?
12:17
Zack
there are 4 ways of betting in amoveo. you can buy zero or more of any of the 4 bets.
There are 4 ways of betting in the method Robin sketched out, you can buy zero or more of any of the 4 bets.
12:17
Eric Arsenault
Great
12:18
Zack
Maybe I should program a contract for derivatives like Robin is describing. Maybe they are better sometimes.
12:18
Eric Arsenault
We should think of use case before I think
12:20
Phil Bonello
this was my thought
12:20
A DAC only for the initial funding
12:21
Eric Arsenault
Right
12:21
Because otherwise, there is no space fund
12:23
you don't need much to spark cosmic dreams
12:23
Eric Arsenault
I guess you don’t need much 😂
12:28
Zack
Can we hook up the dev reward to a space fund mechanism?
12:29
but to fund Amoveo instead of space
12:33
I think that this mechanism might make sense where all of us have to pool our efforts for something that can benefit all of us.
But the centralization of it all isn't so good.
I think the development of Amoveo should happen in different directions by different people with different motives at the same time.
And that we should break funding up into different sized chunks instead of 1/2 at a time.
The problem with space fund is that everyone is paying in proportion to how many veo they have. Which isn't necessarily how much a given mechanism will benefit them.
DAC make it so each person is incentivized to pay in proportion to how much it could benefit them.
This way we can each have a focused understanding of parts of amoveo. We don't depend on people understanding some grand plan of everything.
13:23
Eric Arsenault
I’ve been thinking something similar. Funding could be broken up by objectives and bets could be tied to metrics for those objectives
13:24
There would need to be a process to determine what % of funds go to which objective
13:27
However, I’m not sold on donation as mechanism, I think it can be done wit DACs
13:29
If metrics aren’t met: the proposer loses the bet
13:34
Maybe there are rounds of DAC funding, with proposals submitted for each round
13:35
Then you can have an evolving strategy
13:38
Another thought I had: Imagine having two forks of amoveo: so you could choose different proposals in each fork: then pick the one that better achieves its objectives
22:02
Mr Flintstone
about 1.5 days until hard update activates
22:56
Would be great to see this with Amoveo
22:57
Could help with integrations...for example a gambling site could use it to allow members to gamble in VEO
23:01
You could use Amoveo oracles to know when the fiat funds have been transferred
23:19
A K
I've yet to see a person, who wants to bet in VEO. Everyone wants to be in USD
23:20
How can an oracle help - it's not publicly verifiable info
00:02
Eric Arsenault
the way ramp works is: the crypto user sends crypto to an escrow contract. The fiat user sends fiat to the crypto user bank account.
Once the transaction arrives and it can be read via open banking api, the escrow contract automatically sends the crypto to the fiat user.... I was thinking you could use same banking api and make information available for oracles
00:03
You can hold USD using VEO
00:03
With the right interface, someone would not even know they are using VEO
00:16
Stepan Panov
Isn't this almost the same as LocalBitcoins though?
00:16
Eric Arsenault
I’m not familiar with it, will check it out
00:20
A K
also, bisq and hodlhodl
00:21
Stepan Panov
What I'm getting at is that an esrow service like that is nothing new, and platforms that have been offering it for years (like LocalBitcoins) are now being forced to introduce obligatory KYC/AML policy. I don't know if ramp is any different in that respect, but if there's one thing that can deter someone from crypto it's being asked to take a selfie with a passport IMO.
00:34
Eric Arsenault
That is true
00:58
Spike Spiegel
Ramp doesn't require selfie - you are using your bank account as auth like OAuth
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04:58
Zack
Vitalik has turned cryptocurrency into a dance battle, and I don't have any slick moves.
04:59
We could use a dac to pay someone to make an open source amoveo dance.
05:38
Mr Flintstone
what if people would be more inclined to purchase insurance against the fact that something like that might happen instead of the other way around? lol
05:40
Zack
Being paid to not dance is basically my dream
05:51
An idea to make amoveo contracts shorter.
A new transaction type, and all it did was define a pure function, which is a string of chalang code, to be made available in chalang.
So from now on, you could use this function in any chalang programs.
So far, we have been using the same 2 contracts over and over. When we do a channel_slash tx, it can be a very large transaction.
We could make both of these contracts into functions that will exist forever on Amoveo.
It wont take up more space than a few dozen accounts, and every channel_slash and channel_solo_close tx can be much smaller from now on.
This is especially important for a certain class of attacks where the attacker causes many people to want to do channel_slash txs at the same time.
05:54
It is a basic compression technique we can do because all the contracts are mostly just copies of each other.
05:55
I wonder if we should add a new governance variable, or just make this in proportion to accounts. so making 1 byte of accounts costs the same as making 1 byte of smart contracts.
11:09
Zack
another bug was found in the P2P derivatives tool.
It is recommended not to use it until further notice.
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18:58
Deleted Account
Hello
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21:45
Deleted Account
Hello
05:39
Zack
Nice link.
Lol
> hello
Hello
> can I ask a question?
Yes
> ok, let me type it up.
Ok
> when moon?
05:40
Spike Spiegel
Or even worse - some random dude asking me "hello how are you sir" daily
05:41
I enjoy this channel due to strictly enforced netiquette and high quality discussion - similar to weekly MKR governance chat.
And FWIW what about making weekly call for "futarchy"?
05:42
Zack
My defensive strategy is to never wait for someone to answer my communication. I work on something else, and if there is a notification I return to the chat.
05:44
I prefer all asynchronous communication.
I don't want to give an advantage to people who can show up at a certain time of day.
Plus I am terrible at remembering to show up for stuff like this.
05:46
Also I prefer all amoveo communication to be by text.
It makes it easier to reference the docs, and to copy paste our conversations to docs.
08:16
Spike Spiegel
Question for all.
I believe that targeting stability (making it explicitly valuable by itself) would be great - spreads and sudden price swings are additional unnecessary risk for which amoveo holders aren't rewarded ( only speculators )
08:17
What about making market making bots that would continuously create both bid / ask orders in order to reduce spread and target lower variance?
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12:42
Eric Arsenault
Are you thinking for VEO price stability?
13:29
A K
It's not a risk free activity
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20:58
Stepan Panov
Thank you! Robin Hanson next week :)
22:36
Mr Flintstone
wow, that is great
00:44
Eric Arsenault
Great job
00:49
Thanks for sharing!
00:51
Spike Spiegel
and thats why dac to pay mm could make sense
00:53
Zack
some market making strategies are almost always profitable.
People should just do those.
Trying to bribe people to take unprofitable strategies just doesn't make sense.
01:53
Eric Arsenault
Cool to see what a mature proposal engine looks like
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11:16
Some interesting plans from Augur
14:41
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
Beautiful!
Stepan there is multiple cases of medium blocking accounts related to crypto. Would choose a backup "just in case"
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00:58
Zack
haha
Whoever Calvin is, he can just pretend that he got egged and win the money from the market.
01:26
Shaun
This is probably the closest we've gotten to assasination markets.
01:27
Hopefully people don't get ideas
01:28
Shaun
thanks Zack I'll check it out
01:49
Mr Flintstone
Calvin is rich enough to not care about the money in the market I think
01:50
but he certainly will care about getting egged
01:50
Zack
it isn't about taking the money, he can just do this to get rid of the market so no one will have an incentive to egg him.
01:52
I guess that this defense only provides 2.2 level security against assassination markets
01:52
some rich jerk could make you waste all your time faking your death over and over.
04:41
Spike Spiegel
Zuck spends $22M a year in order to not get killed
05:36
Spike Spiegel
On security ( yup - on every public meetup there are plenty of bodyguards in plain clothes just in case ) + bulletproof cars, reinforced concrete + steel protection, safehouse and escape lines
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00:42
Stepan Panov
I'm trying my hand in clickbatey headlines this week :D
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09:04
Deleted Account
Anyone know who manages the local community groups and meetups for Amoveo ? If there is someone. Thanks.
09:04
Zack
There are no local community groups or meetups.
09:04
neither are there any managers
09:06
Deleted Account
are there any plans to build a community down the road?
09:06
Zack
I have no plans to hire someone to manage meetups or community groups, ever.
09:07
Deleted Account
thats a good choice, i wouldnt either lol
09:10
Spike Spiegel
But nothing is preventing you from buying some pizza and beer and organising unofficial one
10:30
Spike Spiegel
Question - what do you think stopping the development for like 1 month would have an impact on the project itself?
10:32
Zack
i don't understand this question.
10:34
Spike Spiegel
Does sending you to vacation ( no merged changes in github repo ) would have significant negative impact on VEO project itself?
10:36
Game theory:
- Zack leaving the project - bad for both Zack and VEO
- if Zack isn't actually necessary ->
- if Zack is necessary it's still bad for project as it's creating the risk of leaving / bus factor etc
10:37
Zack
I think if I delay fixing this bug I found today in the P2P derivatives contract by 1 month, yes that would have a significant negative impact on Amoveo.
The most important factor in whether Amoveo succeeds is in how soon we can achieve product market fit.
If someone else beats us to it, then the likelyhood of Amoveo succeeding will rapidly decrease.
I think the P2P derivatives tool is our fastest path to PMF, so fixing this bug soon is a priority for Amoveo's success.
10:37
Spike Spiegel
In other words - do you believe in competence of the unofficial team to let them to do stuff without your leadership / management even for brief time
10:38
Zack
Until we achieve product market fit, there is nothing here to maintain or save. There is nothing here to lose.
10:39
Spike Spiegel
It's like zero to one with nothing between.
Startups are hard
10:40
Zack
Once we achieve product market fit, there will be a lot bigger financial incentive in maintaining and understanding Amoveo. I think that I will quickly lose importance.
10:45
Spike Spiegel
https://defipulse.com/What about adding Amoveo to the list?
scott_lew_is was helping Amoveo launch AFAIK
10:48
Zack
I don't want to be on a list where "lending" and "derivatives" are different columns.
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04:19
Phil Bonello
definitely should be added to the list
04:38
Eric Arsenault
agreed, it's great exposure
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08:12
Zack
im going to kick this batch of new people out again.
They seem fake to me. none of them are asking questions.
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08:17
Eric Arsenault
Speak now or forever hold your peace
10:26
Jon Snow
They all seem fake. All their IDs are just first name + 4digits numbers
10:26
Zack
good idea to look at the ids
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13:38
Sy
Just Like Mine 😂😅
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16:03
Rohit Rai
Hello Zack
20:08
Jon Snow
Now we know where they learned this naming convention😅
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23:09
Eric Arsenault
This is awesome and something that’s been on my mind. Could Amoveo pool maker assets in a similar way? Maybe this pool only accepts a subset of trades. Maybe this pool is community generated (ie can put money in the pool and take it out at any time with returns following pool returns)? I don’t know the answer.
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00:25
Eric Arsenault
Quote I like from the article above
“If the DeFi community figures out liquidity solutions for the long-tail assets (such as non-fungible tokens and prediction market shares), P2P protocols may well outpace the utility of their less flexible analogues by offering the “endless aisle” of asset types and custom exposures. These peer-negotiated contracts can theoretically allow users exposure to any asset or state of the world. Such plasticity may allow these systems to serve increasingly deeper niches as the flywheel of market completeness kicks in.”
00:28
Zack
Yeah, that's a good one
02:16
Mike
Dean’s points here align a lot with my proposal for “explanation markets”
02:39
Moe ⛏
Could we make a market for Uber stock price for a 100b valuation (Uber will be introduced to the market during its IPO at 100b valuation, I want to bet that the closing price after the first trading day will be under 100b valuation)
02:42
Eric Arsenault
Back to the liquidity issue: you’ll need to find someone to bet with
02:42
(Ie someone will need to accept the opposite bet)
02:44
I also want to go long on an African stock... if anyone wants to short :S
02:49
Phil Bonello
These are the type of markets people would participate in
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03:03
Mr Flintstone
are you willing to go long the African stock stable relative to the local currency?
03:03
then, it isn’t thAt you need to find someone who wants to short the stock, it’s more like you just need to find someone who wants to long veo
03:03
since veo volatility dwarfs basically anything else
03:05
Eric Arsenault
Can you explain how this would work?
03:07
let’s say you want to long some African stock trading in ZAR (South African currency), but you don’t want to have the veo price risk
03:08
so then what you basically do, is short veo and long the South African stock at the same time, using one oracle
03:09
so what this means is that your payout in VEO is determined like this: (1-V)*(1+Z)-1
03:09
Where V is the return of veo over the period and Z is the return of the stock
03:09
so for example, say the stock goes up 10%, but veo drops 10% at the same time
03:10
this means that your return in veo is 1.1*1.1 -1 times the amount of veo you started betting with
03:10
or like 20% increase in VEO
03:11
so your synthetic position exactly matched the return of the stock despite the price of VEO going down
03:12
what this means is that the other side of the trade is both long veo and short the stock at the same time, so their payout looks like (1+V)*(1-Z)-1
03:13
you can bundle all of this into one scalar oracle
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05:10
Thanks!!! The short/long within one oracle is a new concept for me...really opens things up!
05:40
Deleted Account
any wallet ? online? working
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01:40
Desab
What is the easiest VEO Miner?
01:41
Zack
ask in discord
#mining channel
01:41
O K
Probably veominer, but it is probably not worth mining with a GPU at this stage. There are FPGA. You can get more info in discord
#mining
09:56
Eric Arsenault
good stuff:
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17:12
wind z
heard about the discuss of 51% attack, if it happen, i will call all HAC users to resist attack. VEO is good project😄
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20:40
Deleted Account
Any resource on circulating supply/total supply and token alloc?
03:24
Sy
Uh we have a new finder addreess, if you want to add a name, message me
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19:09
Actually it would be a nice if Zack could get to be in the same podcast to elaborate more on futarchy from the blockchain perpective
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21:45
Spike Spiegel
Robin Hanson believes that futarchy isn't working because there is no interest in that
21:56
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference
00:13
Zack
When did he say that?
00:19
My understanding of Robin's perspective is this: futarchy isn't as popular as it should be because the people in power would lose power if we used futarchy instead. So they use their power to discourage futarchy.
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02:50
Tromp
I dont think many people in power know what futarchy is. At least in Venezuela 😂
08:53
Zack
I think I found a solution so that bitcoin can operate without block rewards.
Instead of paying the tx fees out to the miner immediately, pay all the tx fees into a fee-fund. And on every block, pay out like 0.5% of the fund to whoever found the block.
09:48
O K
That's interesting
09:50
O K
The solution is so simple, but not obvious at all. I wonder if there are any problems with that we haven't thought about
09:51
Zack
the problem is that it reduces the incentive for miners to include any txs at all
09:52
but since mining pools are so big, they are likely to find many blocks in a 100-block period.
Which somewhat reduces the effect.
09:52
The biggest mining pools have the biggest incentive to include txs if we do it this way.
09:55
You can balances out these 2 potential issues by selecting the correct portion of the reward-fund to give out per block.
If you give out too much of the fund per block, then you have problems where cartels will remine history to get bigger rewards.
If you give out too little of the fund per block, then many blocks will be completely empty of txs.
There is some optimal balance between the extremes.
Currently we are 100% at one extreme, which is not the optimal value.
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13:33
Deleted Account
Joe Armstrong, the founder of Erlang, just died. The Amoveo community should thank Joe as Amoveo is written in Erlang. From his Thesis:
> The work described in this thesis is the result of a research program started in 1981 to find better ways of programming Telecom applications. These applications are large programs which despite careful testing will probably contain many errors when the program is put into service. We assume that such programs do contain errors, and investigate methods for building reliable systems despite such errors. The research has resulted in the development of a new programming language (called Erlang), together with a design methodology, and set of libraries for building robust systems (called OTP).
14:00
Zack
Being able to use erlang saves me a lot of effort.
16:08
Tromp
Why only .5% of the fund?
16:41
Deleted Account
.5% implies the miner receives the average total fees / block of the last 200 blocks. The low percent is balanced by the large size of the fund.
16:43
Bo Smubo
Are you guys still mining?
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00:40
تركي العنزي
طيب ياخي محذوف
00:40
هههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههه😂😂😂💔.
00:42
Zack
أهلا وسهلا بك إلى Amoveo. يمكنني الإجابة على أسئلة حول التكنولوجيا.
02:06
Mike
Question open to all: Could derivatives be used in some way to create an "Airbnb for everything" — whereby people can buy and sell couches and whatnot in advance, for example
02:14
Zack
Not exactly.
Amoveo only has cash settled derivatives.
So you could have a contract who's outcome is determined by the average cost of sleeping on a couch in a certain city.
But the smart contract cannot force you to let someone sleep on your couch.
Blockchains use cryptography and software. They don't have control over physical things like couches.
02:16
Mike
Got it. This part still sounds pretty interesting — "So you could have a contract who's outcome is determined by the average cost of sleeping on a couch in a certain city." — Sounds like you could have a perpetual radar for who needs what, where, when — so that whoever owns couches can be aware of when it's most worth it to offer one
02:18
Zack
"bring the software to the devs’ expectations. "
That is a weird thing to say. I think you misunderstood what I was saying before.
This update does not change any goal or functionality of amoveo. It is only fixing bugs. So it is not a controversial update.
02:24
Stepan Panov
I wasn't implying that there's any controversy there at all, I'll change it accordingly it two minutes 👌
02:46
Zack
looks great. thanks for the fix Stepan
02:48
Stepan Panov
Happy to!
03:37
Deleted Account
Have you considered a currency peg for VEO?
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03:49
Jambonneau
how long does it take to clear a transaction??
03:49
sending from web wallet??
03:59
Zack
Amoveo has turing complete smart contracts inside the lightning network.
You can use these smart contracts to create stablecoins pegged to whatever you want.
04:00
on average it takes 11 minutes for a tx to be included in a block.
04:19
Deleted Account
People want to settle derivatives in dollars, not VEO.
04:20
Eventually, when Amoveo is well-established, they might be willing to settle in a dollar stablecoin inside Amoveo. But for now, even that is risky.
04:21
A commitment to peg VEO to the dollar for a certain time period might help get through this initial period when "platform risk" is a big factor.
04:26
Zack
In finance you cannot create or destroy risk. you can only trade it from one person to another.
If some people are having less token risk, then someone else must be having more.
A one-size-fits-all stablecoin contract is bad because we all have different stablecoin needs.
Some people are willing to pay more for wider margins, others want to save money and don't need such wide margins.
04:33
Deleted Account
okay, so VEO risk (and its close cousin, "platform risk", by which I mean not just fluctuations in VEO price but the risk that the whole Amoveo project could fail) can be traded but not destroyed.
04:33
Fortunately, there is a small community of people who want VEO risk because they (we) believe in its potential upside.
04:34
The question is how to mitigate VEO risk for the 99.9% that don't want it, and for whom its a barrier to using Amoveo at all.
04:35
Zack
each person who wants stablecoins has different needs. Amoveo is a bespoke financial platform, which means we can customize the financial contracts for every user's precise needs.
04:35
The smart contracts are off-chain in the lightning network, so letting each person have a different version of the contract isn't any more expensive than if they all used the same contract.
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06:21
Oleg Kislitsyn
Are you talking about
http://myveowallet.com ? It depends on the network. Usually it takes about 10 minutes. But sometimes it could take hours. It’s a rare case but sometimes it could happen
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09:45
Zack
Welcome Paula. if you are really a forex trader, then you probably know some important things that could help Amoveo. I can answer any questions about the technology you may have.
10:24
Deleted Account
, if i want to raise funds thru amoveo, it's can be done already?
10:28
Deleted Account
fundraising seems to be great use case to start with for amoveo. icos on ethererum is only useful for fund raisers to exploit investors
13:29
Rohit Rai
Hello, Can i have a word with Admin
13:52
Eric Arsenault
Cool concept. We can completely reinvent what a city is, and make everyone richer in the process.
13:52
Zack
I am sick of how expensive property in cities is becoming.
13:54
Eric Arsenault
I agree
15:12
Zack
Eric Arsenault found a bug in binary p2p derivatives. It should be fixed in the next couple of days.
I recommend not using binary derivatives until it is fixed.
15:33
Tromp
Too much stupid regulations and restrictions
Deleted invited Deleted Account
21:59
mm
Cities or even micro-countries...
21:59
In 2007 Pirate Bay was looking for some island to buy.
22:00
They tried to buy Sealand.
22:02
But it can be used to fund some fund floating city on exterritorial waters.
22:03
You can give incentive to invest in a form of tax residency, especially for cryptocurrency owners.
22:04
But it would be helpful to figure out how to issue tax certificates.
22:04
Let’s do some Initial Country Offering to fund this research 😂
22:06
Or actually Domintant Assurance Contract.
22:12
Zack
I think we don't want to make too many decisions right away.
Once enough investors are involved, then regions of the world will be fighting to have our city established on their land.
At that point we should decide on a location.
22:31
Stepan Panov
Can it be by the seaside please
22:32
Zack
I wonder how is best to store the database of who owns which land.
A new blockchain could store the land, but then how would we deal with block rewards?
Maybe the best way is if it was merge-mined with Amoveo.
The Amoveo community should want the city to succeed because it will lead to many futarchy opportunities, so maybe we can re-use Amoveo consensus to secure the city records for free.
22:34
I think the only limitation is that we need to find some largish square of land such that all the land is approximately equally expensive to build on. so we can't have part of it be under the ocean.
22:41
If we divide up ownership of a square, we don't have to immediately decide if it is a kilometer by kilometer square, or a 3 kilometer by 3 kilometer square.
We could even stretch out everyone's land, so it is a 2 kilometer by 1 kilometer rectangle.
22:42
if we end up going coastal, it might make sense to make the city more long and narrow, so everyone can be closer to the beach
22:44
A K
latest floating city didn't end well for its crypto-highnetworth inhabitants (
22:45
Zack
floating cities are crazy expensive.
That isn't a city, it is a one-room floating building.
22:46
And they were disrespecting Thai sovereignty.
If our city was established in Thailand, we would probably get the king's permission first and do it all legally.
22:46
A K
the thing with sovereignity is that you can only argue about it with force
22:46
unlike blockchain derivs
22:47
they thougth they're outside 12km zone, Thai Navy thought different, and they won (
22:48
Zack
The fact that Thailand shut down this floating building tells us nothing about whether our new city would succeed.
There is zero relationship between this floating building, and my proposal for founding a city.
22:49
A K
yeah one can found a city if it doesn't question sovereignity
22:49
NM$L
will veo launch binance dex？
22:49
we can list binance dex using bnb
22:50
mm
Let someone tell Peter Thiel about Amoveo, he was interested in building floating cities
22:52
NM$L
why not？
We can do it
22:54
Zack
it is a centralized and trustful exchange calling itself a "dex".
I don't associate with scammers who lie about the capabilities of the product they sell.
23:19
Deleted Account
never looked at it, which part of it is most centralized, i saw someone mentioned binance chain forked part of cosmos
https://github.com/binance-chain/
23:22
Zack
They have only released binaries, no source code.
So we have no idea if it is based on cosmos, or how it works.
23:23
NM$L
I though it has been opensource.
00:11
oh well, at least I know better now.
Making a fool of myself is a small cost to be able to learn.
I am thinking we should do a hard update to enable something like anyone-can-spend txs from bitcoin. That way we can use bitcoin's solution to this problem in Amoveo.
02:02
Eric Arsenault
What volume of betting do you need to adequately confirm correlation using futarchy?
02:16
Danil
Hi Zack! and what do you think about Nash exchange, is it enough decentralized?
02:17
Mr Flintstone
you only need open orders that haven’t been matched. volume isn’t a good metric
02:18
an open order implies nobody in the universe is willing to take the liquidity at that price, so it puts a bound on the right price
02:18
you can Sybil volume as well
02:19
Eric Arsenault
If you have 4 oracles related to whether or not Amoveo should implement X change
02:19
You then look at open orders
02:20
How many open orders do you need to determine correlation? Are there statistics involved around p values? is it subjective?
02:21
Mr Flintstone
the highest unmatched bid for true
02:22
it isn’t about number of open orders but more like amount of open value in the bids, so it is kind of up to you, do you think a few hundred dollars is enough to incentivize someone with the information to provide it to the market by taking the bid? 50 dollars?
02:23
50 dollars may mean very different things to different people in the amoveo community, and will incentivize behavior accordingly
02:24
I think that once people are familiar enough with the UX, we don’t need much money at stake at all to have accurate correlations
02:27
at least more accurate than the next best decision making process
02:29
Eric Arsenault
Makes sense. How would this work if P2P tool was used for futarchy?
02:30
Mr Flintstone
I think the anyone-can-sign p2p tool is a great tool for implementing futarchy
02:30
Eric Arsenault
So people would just submit their bets
02:30
and you would look at open order book?
02:30
Mr Flintstone
basically you create orders and post them to a chat group and then we see if they get taken or not in time
02:30
we could even use this tg chat
02:31
Eric Arsenault
super cool
02:31
Mr Flintstone
yeah, then we have the price inputs we need to calc the correlation
02:32
Eric Arsenault
how are price inputs determined for that? Would it just be value of VEO in bets which are not filled?
02:32
Mr Flintstone
the order price for the unfilled bids for “true”
02:33
the highest price for each of the four oracle p2p betting
02:35
Price is between 0 and 1
02:35
Eric Arsenault
ah - that's what I was missing
02:35
Mr Flintstone
a price of 0.4 means you risk 0.4 to win 1 veo
02:40
Eric Arsenault
example futarchy question: If Amoveo implements X, VEO price will increase by at least Y. Oracle 1 is (T/T). Say you have 20 VEO open bets saying this is true, 10 VEO open bets saying this is false via p2p tool... would price here be of 0.66?
02:44
Spike Spiegel
I should've learn Bayes probability more carefully
02:48
Zack
20 veo open bets, at what price?
If I made a 20 veo bet at 100:1 odds, so that you can only bet against me by locking up 2000 veo, then my bet is revealing almost no information.
02:50
Mr Flintstone
price is a parameter of a single order just like the value of the order
02:51
the price is off chain, it isn’t like the on chain oracle betting which is matched 1.1
02:52
Eric Arsenault
I don't follow this
Deleted invited Deleted Account
02:53
Zack
in your DAC you accepted bets at different prices.
I recommended a price of 1:10, but I think you have written about using prices like 1:5 or 1:20
02:54
Eric Arsenault
I see, odds are prices
02:54
Spike Spiegel
I think it would be nice to include basic probability crash course into amoveo whitepaper
02:58
Eric Arsenault
It's confusing to call odds prices... but this makes sense now :D thanks
03:00
Zack
we could bet on a coinflip.
We could set up the contract so that if you win, you get 2 veo from me, but if I win, I get one veo from you.
The odds are 1:1 for a coin flip.
But the price is 2:1
For me, the price is worse than the odds, which means I am expected to lose money.
For you, the price is better than the odds, which means that you are expected to earn money.
03:03
Eric Arsenault
right
03:04
something like this would be good, as well as definitions for some nomenclature.
03:07
Zack
If the price is better than the odds, then it is profitable for someone to take that bet.
If the no one takes a bet, then that is evidence that the price is worse than the odds. Since we know the price, this puts a bound on the possible value of the odds.
05:58
Zack
I fixed the bug in the P2P binary derivatives. Thanks again to
@arsena21 for finding it.
05:59
Eric Arsenault
😬 welcome
06:10
Zack
There is a soft update coming up in about 10 days.
It is recommended that all mining pools should update before then.
As long as >50% of the hashpower updates, then the update will be successful, and no mining pools will be harmed.
07:15
Mr Flintstone
Qtrade isn’t on cmc either
09:07
Toby Ganger
we need more exchanges
09:08
although I doubt it would help price right now…just visibility
10:07
Eric Arsenault
I am thinking of creating a group of individuals who are interested in betting in DACs. What would be the best mode of communication? Would a combination of email, TG, Discord be good? Please DM me if you are interested in being part of this group, and your preferred mode of communication.
10:10
Zack
I think for now we can safely spam this entire channel with information about DAC, since it is so central to Amoveo
10:11
Eric Arsenault
What % of people do we reach who could be interested in a DAC in this way?
10:11
I don't think it will be 100%
10:12
If I create DAC I'm hoping to fund in 2-3 weeks, it is important we can communicate to people in the way that will be most effective
10:12
But if you think we reach 100%, I'm fine with status quo
10:13
maybe we reach 90%, which is ok too
10:13
I'm just hoping its not 50%, but have no idea
10:14
Zack
Oh right, the dac stuff is getting drowned in the noise of everything else on the channel
Deleted invited Deleted Account
10:35
Deleted Account
hi,admin
11:27
Eric Arsenault
I would like to create a group of Amoveo community members who are interested in participating in a DAC at some point in the future. Members of this group would receive a physical sticker of Amoveo, along with a unique Non-Fungible Token (NFT) issued on the Ethereum network. A small amount of BTC, ETH or VEO will be collected to print/ship the items.
Anyone want some sweet stickers or NFTs?
11:32
DM me if so: all I need to know if what your preferred mode of communication is... and I'll need to do some calls before knowing the price of printing / shipping.
13:58
mm
Whats the point of some stickers and nft?
13:58
I don’t understand how it’s connected to DACs
14:00
Zack
If we put Amoveo stickers on their laptops, then people will ask them about it when they are in coffee shops.
14:14
Eric Arsenault
I guess it’s just to give people who want to contribute something cool
14:15
mm
Ok. Make sense, so stickers are end goal of this particular DAC.
14:16
Eric Arsenault
I can make stickers, and collect money via DAC yes
14:16
mm
Where do you want to ship from?
14:16
Zack
How do you ask the oracle if stickers were made?
14:19
Postage receipt with tracking?
14:20
I’m in Canada. I could always find sticker producers in other countries depending on rates
14:21
But aside from stickers, I was mainly trying to start a list of people who are interested in DAC (name/pseudo name + communication method) so we can notify them for future DACs
14:21
So they can be reached effectively. I’m not sure how effective Telegram is
14:22
mm
You want some... let’s say marketplace.
14:22
Zack
yeah, that might work
14:22
mm
Page where you can list your DAG
14:22
Eric Arsenault
Yes, eventually
14:22
But for now, can just start as informal communication
14:23
mm
We can start with github repo
14:23
Simple markdown table + PRs
14:23
And you have nice history
14:23
Eric Arsenault
What will be included in repo?
14:24
Contact info and method of communication?
14:24
mm
Telegram, discord are bad for this, because it’s difficult to search history
14:25
Primarily you should describe what are raising money for
14:25
+ you can include info to some channels etc if someone want to discuss details
14:26
Eric Arsenault
Yes this is fine, I think history is good. I am mainly just looking for most effective way to contact people.
14:27
mm
Newsletter for updates
14:27
People read their emails generally
14:27
It’s harder to follow number of telegram, WhatsApp etc channels
14:30
Eric Arsenault
Yeah I guess email is probably the most effective.
14:45
Zack
I fixed a bug in the light node that was preventing us from doing channel_team_close txs if the oracle had already been settled.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Daniel Welbers invited Daniel Welbers
22:54
Daniel Welbers
Hello Amoveo team!
22:55
My name is Daniel Welbers and I work as an Advertising Manager at CryptoCompare. We, at CryptoCompare, have helped many companies in the space with their marketing strategy during the past year, and I certainly believe we can do the same for you!
22:55
Should we discuss this further?
23:03
Mr Flintstone
hi Daniel, there isn’t much to market at the moment since we’re still building the infrastructure
23:04
it seems like you probably want to get paid for this, so if you are interested later on, you can set up a dominant assurance contract to get paid in VEO using amoveo
23:04
it is extremely unlikely you will receive funding in any traditional sense you are familiar with
23:06
sanket
Regarding DAC, I think a discord channel also would be nice. Since discussion here gets lost
Deleted invited Deleted Account
00:32
Zack
Amoveo has futarchy in our governance yes.
Additionally, amoveo is a platform for hosting futarchy markets to make decisions for any community.
Your town could use amoveo futarchy to decide which park to put a swingset in for children to play on.
00:33
Amoveo is a futarchy platform, governance is just one small application of futarchy
00:33
Stepan Panov
Copy-pasting this into the article ;)
00:34
Zack
We could get rid of the governance system in amoveo, if it turned out that it had some bug, and I think this does not impact the value proposition of amoveo almost at all.
Governance is a small feature in the grand scheme of things
00:40
Spike Spiegel
All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities...
00:40
Then who will be setting governance variables?
00:42
Zack
We would use futarchy to make decisions about hard updates, there would be no way to change a governance variable except with a hard update.
So mining pools would have to update more frequently.
00:42
Spike Spiegel
What about exchanges and others?
00:43
It's a negative externality
00:43
Zack
Yeah, they would have to update a lot more frequently if we didn't have the on-chain governance tool
00:43
Still, this wouldn't significantly impact Amoveo's value proposition.
It is just an inconvenience, it doesn't prevent amoveo from being used for derivatives.
00:48
Spike Spiegel
BTW Dharma is actively subsidising "derivatives" on Ethereum - why Amoveo cannot do the same?
00:49
Zack
Negative tx fees? So they are paying people to spam junk data onto ethereum?
00:49
Spike Spiegel
$10k spent on subsidies would make greater impact than $10k spent on development / DAC
IHMO
https://defipulse.com/ <-- Amoveo should be listed there and grow in postion
00:50
No, they are paying 11% to lend money for 150% collateralised positions
00:50
Zack
I hate it when people use loan-language to talk about derivatives.
00:50
It hides what is actually happening
00:51
You can't loan something on a blockchain, all you can do is trade risk.
00:51
Spike Spiegel
Yeah, but it doesn't matter how you call things - what matters if there is usage
00:52
Zack
It matter if I can't understand what you are trying to say
00:52
Spike Spiegel
If you can translate other people imprecise words into your perfect mental model then communication is successful
00:52
Zack
It's like they are encrypting all the info about their product by redefining all these terms from the world of lending.
00:53
Spike Spiegel
And Apple is calling their tablets iPads to hid the fact they sell commodity piece of tech
00:54
Zack
I have no idea what you mean by "subsidizing derivatives".
If you have negative tx fees, you are paying for spam, and the blockchain would quickly break.
00:54
Spike Spiegel
No, paying people to hold stablecoins
00:54
By having 80% per year return
00:55
In fact you can only subsidise such rate and after some time whole ecosystem of wallets / interfaces / apis / explorers / will be created because it's profitable to do
00:55
Zack
You can pay 80% per year with amoveo p2p derivatives contracts, if that is what you want to do
00:57
There is a market price for any kind of risk.
If you trade at worse than the market price, people will just do arbitrage trading to take all the free money you are bleeding, and they don't have to hold stablecoins at all.
00:57
I guess the equilibrium result is that the miners will do all the arbitrage to take all the free money you are losing.
00:57
Spike Spiegel
I'm saying that spending 20% inflation reward on "development" and not spending anything on subsidies is worse for Amoveo than at least trying to spend some money on subsidies ( you are getting free VEO while I paid a hefty price for them )
My point is that I'm losing the hope that amoveo will be used by people because you prefer to be right vs having successful product
00:58
A VC would probably do aggressive marketing / PR campaign while subsidising the rates to build scale. Without participants financial marketplaces or blockchains are worth zero
00:58
Zack
You want to fire me and give the dev reward to mining pools?
00:59
Eric Arsenault
I'm of the opinion that there is an opportunity to subsidize this kind of thing... but we are not there yet
00:59
still a lot to do on product level
01:00
once we find a market, we can subsidize if that's what is needed, but I think it's too early for this now
01:00
Zack
It doesn't matter what format you bleed value in. Miners have the first opportunity to take all the free value.
Amoveo financial contracts can be used to hedge their risk so they can take all the value by arbitrage, without having to hold any stablecoin contract.
01:01
No we can't.
You guys are ignoring basic economics and game theory.
01:02
Trying to subsidize something is the same as increasing the block reward, except the blockchain gets a bunch of spam messages.
01:02
Spike Spiegel
No, subsidising the stablecoins.
01:02
You literally offered 80% rate then realised I would be happy with lower rate so you withdrawn your offer
01:03
Zack
This is a very bad plan that can only harm amoveo.
Zero benefit and large consequences.
01:03
Spike Spiegel
What kind of consequences?
01:03
Zack
The blocks will get filled with spam bloat, leaving less space for txs that actually add value
01:04
Spike Spiegel
By subsidizing the stablecoins?
01:04
Eric Arsenault
I think we need to be open to experimenting. If this is a useful technique to attract users to Amoveo, I think it should be tried (but not yet)
01:04
Zack
Paying people to make blockchain spam is always bad.
We need fees to discourage people from spamming the blockchain.
01:05
Eric Arsenault
I see it more like a carrot that can attract new users
01:05
Zack
Let's do an experiment where you transfer the money in your bank to me.
If you refuse to try this, that means you aren't open to experiment.
01:05
Spike Spiegel
I'm talking about incentivising proper usage - if you offer to pay 80% APR for stablecoins ( paying for long veo option ) then your counterparties have to:
1. Learn VEO
2. Use interface
3. Report bugs and issues with interface and experience
01:06
Zack
You think that filling the blocks with spam so there is less space for useful txs and it takes longer to sync will act as a "carrot"?
01:06
Spike Spiegel
How it will lead to spamming the blockchain?
01:06
Zack
If you are paying people to spam amoveo carefully, it just becomes a new form of mining. Some people will specialize at doing the new spam effectively
01:07
Spike Spiegel
How you can spam effectively if you will trade with few people of your choosing?
01:07
Zack
Amoveo makes all forms of risk fungible, it is a platform for financial derivatives.
If you give away value in any format, people can just convert that value to Veo and take it.
01:08
Spike Spiegel
I'm not talking about doing anything automated - just being the person that's willing to pay higher rates then market rates
01:09
Zack
If someone starts paying people to spam amoveo, that is a kind of attack against amoveo.
01:09
It isn't a profitable attack
01:10
Spike Spiegel
No spamming - just offer people that you will take long position so they can have profitable stablecoins
01:10
And I can guarantee traction for such an idea
01:10
It can be funded by increasing founders reward
01:10
Zack
Amoveo is only 2.2 level secure because it is technically vulnerable to these kinda of attacks.
A sufficiently rich attacker could spam amoveo so much that it is unusable to the rest of us
01:12
If you guys want to pay people to spam amoveo and you want to pay for it by inflating the supply of veo, you will have to make a fork, and I will sell all my Veo on your side of the fork.
01:12
Spike Spiegel
I don't see how it could lead to spam
01:12
Zack
This is how it makes spam
01:13
Spike Spiegel
And creating another blockchain from genesis and giving some % to VC is better idea for dissenters than forking
01:13
Why would anybody fork vs creating their own chain?
01:13
Zack
This is a place for discussing amoveo, not advertising your plan for an altcoin.
01:13
Spike Spiegel
Bitcoin cash and Bitcoin SV were created as forks - forks are much less valuable than oryginal
01:14
I'm not planning to fork veo. My goal is to increase the price of VEO and I would be interested in any effective plan for it
01:15
Even if it's "stupid"
01:15
Eric Arsenault
I don't understand the implications of this from a spam perspective either, I see these as real transactions from real people wanting stablecoins. I see this as a possible experiment, not tied to it but find it interesting.
01:16
Spike Spiegel
I'm not interested in using VEO for derivatives unless there would be some significant subsidy to it and my only goal is to get other people to use it so my portfolio value will increase
01:16
Zack
If you want the price to go up, then ask the futarchy market if it will make the price go up.
I guarantee that futarchy will tell us that paying people to spam the blockchain is only bad.
01:16
There is no such thing as a free lunch.
01:16
Spike Spiegel
Manually Subsidising the market cannot lead to spamming the network if you will make no more than tx transactions a day
01:17
There is no such thing as a free lunch <-- so my idea is to come up with the ideas that will increase the network usage and convince others to implement them
01:18
Zack
The person profiting from the money you are bleeding could need to make multiple txs to fully hedge their risks.
Or they might be able to do it all in channels without making more txs.
01:18
Spike Spiegel
I think just a few from this channel have programming skills enough to add new features / fix bugs.
The others? What can they do?
01:18
You can stop subsidies if you are unhappy with spammers
01:18
So it would discourage them from doing such things
01:19
Zack
Great. Come up with ideas then.
I am never going to pretend that a bad idea is good. I respect you enough to give you an honest assessment of the feasibility of your ideas.
That way you can avoid wasting time on bad ideas.
01:20
If you can't understand my explanation, then ask futarchy what is best.
Futarchy can give you a simple yes/no answer so you don't have to understand why.
01:21
Spike Spiegel
I'm saying that Dharma project used subsidies and they got from zero traction to being #3 project - and they spent no more than $50k for it.
Futarchy isn't magical genie - since there is no credible threat of fork the person with more VEO will be always right
01:22
So arguing using futarchy is like arguing using nukes if only one side owns them - if you have so much bruteforce you can win any bet
01:22
Zack
If you think futarchy doesn't work, then why would you invest in amoveo at all?
01:22
Spike Spiegel
my mistake
01:22
Zack
This is a platform for derivatives
01:23
If you think derivatives don't work, then don't waste your money investing in amoveo.
01:23
Spike Spiegel
I thought it would work and I thought that governance over mining reward would reduce supply if there is reduced demand so price will be raising
01:24
I had wrong mental model of veo holder and his values
01:26
I think that subsidies are more effective in reaching VEO goals than development as without sales / marketing any product will be dead
01:26
Zack
50k isn't much. Looks like dharma is not subsidizing, 80% is just the normal market rate.
01:26
It only says 10% on there website
01:27
Spike Spiegel
If I could find somebody offering 80% I would advertise such rate so more people would buy VEO in order to get 80% rate
01:28
Zack
I have sold derivatives at 5% monthly interest, which is about the same as 80% annual.
Because I thought that was the fair market price. It is not a subsidy.
01:29
Spike Spiegel
Ok, btw can we list VEO on
defipulse.com if blogpost explaining it would be created?
01:30
Zack
One time they gave away free colored chalk powder at my university to celebrate the spring.
The crowd of students quickly became violent. A handful of more muscly students took most of the colored powder.
Similarly, if you give away some form of free value on the blockchain, the first person who can include a tx will consume all of that value at once.
01:31
Spike Spiegel
Adding VEO to the explorer isn't giving anything for free and doesn't require any resources
01:31
scott_lew_is was participating in Amoveo launch AFAIK
01:31
Zack
I'm giving more examples of why subsidies can not work
01:32
Spike Spiegel
This example was good enough to convince me
01:32
Zack
I don't own defipulse. Don't ask me if they will advertise amoveo.
01:32
Spike Spiegel
I just don't understand how listing veo would harm the project
01:33
It's free and gives more exposure
01:33
Zack
Advertising amoveo can only benefit amoveo.
01:34
Spike Spiegel
How to track amount of VEO locked in "smart contracts"?
01:35
Zack
Each channel's contracts are private.
01:50
Eric Arsenault
that's a problem for defipulse
01:52
Spike Spiegel
It would be nice to be able to compare traction of one protocol vs another protocol - if there are no success metrics not based on price then only success metrics would be:
- price
- marketcap
- price stability
And it's sad for developers because being judged based only on those success metrics isn't meaningful
01:58
Eric Arsenault
if there was a marketplace for bid / asks, more information could be obtained from that
01:58
Spike Spiegel
> How much $ you can buy in stablecoins in any given moment
01:58
> or best rate for stablecoins
01:59
Mr Flintstone
that is possible
02:00
Eric Arsenault
I think creating a simple open source marketplace would be great. A place to post bets, get analytics, etc
02:02
Spike Spiegel
The purpose of the markets is facilitating trade & price discovery
02:02
Right now there is limited price discovery for common products like stable coins or options so it's hard to get people to use things that aren't visib;e
02:07
Zack
For derivative platforms, the success metric of each topic being bet on is the market liquidity. How much can you buy without moving the price more than 5%
02:08
Amoveo has markets already.
The person running the market can see the analytics, but they can't prove it to anyone else.
02:09
Eric Arsenault
what about for all P2P bets? Feel like there should be a place to organize all this information
02:10
Zack
Discord trading channel might be the spot to post p2p offers
02:11
Eric Arsenault
maybe, but it could get chaotic
02:12
/hard to find what you are looking for
02:12
Zack
We can do something about it once it becomes chaotic.
Premature optimization is no good.
If you wait till the last minute to make every decision, then you can have maximal amount of information to make a good decision.
02:12
Eric Arsenault
I agree
02:13
Discord is a good starting place
02:16
Anyone else interested in Amoveo stickers, DM me
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08:12
Zack
im thinking ill launch an oracle for USD stablecoins.
I want to go long
08:13
Eric Arsenault
Same here. I’ll offer you better rates 🙃
08:14
What interest are you offering?
08:14
Zack
I am closing a couple previous oracles in this next block. Hopefully seeing them settle correctly will give people more confidence that the P2P derivatives tool does work.
08:14
Eric Arsenault
Great
08:15
Zack
Instead of considering interest and price, lets just choose one number.
I am thinking I will sell $100 of stablecoins per veo
08:16
Eric Arsenault
What does other person get for taking the bet
08:16
Zack
for every veo they lock in, they get $100 of stablecoins.
08:17
Eric Arsenault
Great
08:17
Zack
So at the end of the month, the will get $100 worth of veo
08:18
Closing the oracles might have broken veoscan
08:18
Eric Arsenault
We need a place to communicate this where everyone has access
08:18
Zack
ill publish it here and in discord
#trading
08:18
Eric Arsenault
It doesn’t scale well
08:19
I also want to know which bets have been filled
08:20
Zack
oh yeah, we need to make a way to see if the bet is already filled.
I wonder what happens if a second person tries to match with it. it will fail for sure, but I wonder what the error message is.
08:20
Eric Arsenault
That’s on the list of things
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08:21
Eric Arsenault
I suggest creating a simple interface for P2P publishing, where you can see status of bets, view history
08:22
Zack
yeah, that would be cool.
Maybe people should have to pay something to have their trade listed
08:23
Eric Arsenault
I like that
08:23
I smell my next DAC
08:23
Zack
This might be a service like making mining software, or mining pools. The kind of service where other people are going to out-compete whatever I can produce so they can earn a profit.
08:24
Eric Arsenault
Love it
08:24
Zack
I mostly have to focus on building the things that we need, and I can tell no one else is financially incentivized to do it.
08:26
Eric Arsenault
So do, most don’t
08:30
Zack
JeYvXdW4ttPnAnKv4diIDIvgMb4UUWJ5Bg0DMx8OQDw=
Here is the USD stablecoin oracle id
08:31
the oracle will be made in the next block.
08:33
Eric Arsenault
Great thanks. What question did you use?
08:34
And when is expiry?
08:36
Eric Arsenault
what date does that correspond to?
08:37
I feel like we need to change Start field entry if possible
08:37
Zack
you can look it up soon enough
08:37
Eric Arsenault
it's too complicated for avg user
08:37
Zack
its for in a month
08:38
Eric Arsenault
great
09:32
Mr Flintstone
100 is ballsy given highest bid rn is like 80 but I respect it
09:32
5x the last premium for long veo when you did stablecoins with sourcex
09:33
Zack
yeah, I guess $100 is a little high for now
09:33
Mr Flintstone
someone would probably take that bet though even if their confidence in the p2p tool were lower than you want
09:35
Zack
if I made a 10 veo buy market order in qtrade, it would push the price above $100
09:35
Mr Flintstone
it depends how you define the price
09:36
Zack
this is the slowest block ever. I just want to the oracle to activate
10:37
Zack
I updated the otc_listener page so that if you are trading a stablecoin, it will tell you the price that you are trading at.
10:40
$466 of stablecoin being sold for 5 veo.
11:08
Topab
@arsena21 was the oracle for the DAC you created resolved?
11:13
Eric Arsenault
Not yet
11:13
May 6th we need to deliver, hopefully will be done prior to
11:20
Topab
Good to hear that, keep going!
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21:25
Stepan Panov
Thank you!
21:30
Zack
I think someone is mining on the wrong side of the hard fork.
They didn't update their mining pool's full node in time.
Around 6 blocks were found on the fork since yesterday.
Which means they have wasted between $0 and $480 of electricity.
21:44
Sy
the new address?
21:44
that would explain why they stopped finding blocks
21:44
Zack
probably yes. I sent them a message.
21:44
Sy
oh you know who is running it? tell me 😁
21:45
probably? we only have 3 finder adresses and i know OK and i updated 😎
21:46
Zack
loloxiao on discord
22:10
Sy
oh really? he did ask me some questions but they were so basic i didnt think he was actually running a pool...he got balls 😁
22:10
Zack
I think it is just a pool for his own miners, to avoid paying fees to the other pools.
22:11
Sy
yeah but the outtake he has right now would have covered his fee for at least a month
22:11
i mean he found like 5-7 blocks a day, 24h gone, thats alot of fees
22:12
Zack
yeah, and that is assuming he even comes online today to realize what went wrong
22:12
Sy
i was checking my pool very closely all the time when it was new so i guess he does know
22:13
Zack
As often as Amoveo is updated, a 3% pool fee seems very reasonable.
22:13
if he noticed, he wouldn't have mined so many invalid blocks
22:26
Sy
ah true, how do you see those? node logs?
22:26
Zack
im looking at the block heights on veoscan
22:27
they were all stuck at 903 yesterday, now they are at 914
So I guess 11 blocks were mined on the minority fork
22:31
Sy
ah that makes sense :) i actually looked for the node too
22:32
Zack
The difficulty is probably dropping on the minority fork, so they will start finding blocks faster.
22:32
our retargetting tool is very fast, within like 20 or 30 blocks it will be back to 11 minutes.
23:42
Zack
What are controversial decisions we used futarchy to settle in Amoveo?
changing the block reward. anything else?
00:49
Eric Arsenault
🙌 sweet :)
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00:50
Mr Flintstone
dev reward
00:50
oh, we didn’t use futarchy
00:53
Zack
Let's do some futarhy markets so we have more historical examples to tell people about
00:58
Eric Arsenault
I have a couple in mind...
00:58
Mr Flintstone
it should be controversial
00:58
what about supply schedule
00:58
Stepan Panov
that sparked great discussions, very happy to see it!
00:59
Eric Arsenault
Agreed - good job
00:59
Stepan Panov
overall supply? can't get much more controversial than that haha
01:00
Eric Arsenault
Side note: I reached out to a few conferences to get some exposure for Amoveo
01:01
This one has booths available but charge 1200 USD
01:01
I'm not willing to pay, but if anyone thinks it would be worthwhile, send me a note
01:06
Zack what do you make of Paul's response:
01:07
sorry... trying to paste image
01:08
Zack
The correct way to do this is to click the little arrow, and get a "link to this tweet"
01:08
that way you can share the context too
01:09
it is hard for me to know what he is talking about out of context
01:10
Zack
i don't understand the question. "what do I make of paul's response"
01:11
Do you want me to say the same thing in different words? is he too confusing for you?
01:12
Zack
He is basically saying that there is a cost to participating in a PM, and that no one will do that unless they expect to earn some profit. And then he mentions using LMSR as the strategy to solve this in bitcoin hivemind.
I am not sure what part of that is confusing.
01:13
Eric Arsenault
I misread. What is subsidation?
01:13
I read subsidization
01:14
Zack
he just means that no one will participate in a PM unless they expect to earn a profit.
If there is no money in a PM, then there is no way to earn a profit, so no one would get involved.
01:15
PM are a specialized kind of financial derivative. for a PM, it isn't necessarily the case that people have a financial incentive to hedge any risks.
The only aspect of the PM we are sure of is that someone has a financial incentive to learn some information.
01:16
So if you want to make a PM work in general, there needs to be some way that the person who wants to pay for information is paying the people who are providing the information.
01:29
Zack
We can only have futarchy markets for questions that we can make oracles for.
With the current volatility, we probably can't have an oracle more than a month or so in the future.
one month in the future from now, we will not know what the total supply of Amoveo will be any more than we can know right now.
So this isn't something we can ask the oracle about.
So we can't make a futarchy market about this.
01:30
Robin Hanson thinks we should have a free pizza Amoveo meetup, and we should use futarchy markets to predict which kind of pizza will run out first
01:48
Mr Flintstone
we can know if amoveo was updated to change the supply schedule
02:15
Eric Arsenault
I guess volatility would be the issue.
02:17
why do you say you can't have oracles more than a month or so in future? Wouldn't making longer term bets be better to avoid the short term volatility?
02:31
Zack
Long term volatility is even worse than short term volatility.
02:32
I think volatility is in proportion to the square root of the amount of time
02:38
Eric Arsenault
Say we used futarchy to determine correlation between some controversial change and price action of VEO. If I predict positive correlation (ie make change = higher VEO): Short term (1-2 weeks), VEO could go up and down and I could be wrong because of short term volatility. Long term, wouldn't I have a better chance of the price action of VEO reflecting that controversial change (regardless of whether it goes up or down)?
02:40
Zack
During a longer period of time there are more possible random events that can impact the price
02:40
I think we can use some math from random walks for this.
02:41
the part about gaussian random walks includes sqrt(N) in the formula.
That is where I got my square root of the amount of time from.
02:43
Mr Flintstone
yeah you are right
02:44
if your 1 month volatility is 10%, your 12 month volatility is 10% *sqrt(12)
02:44
Zack
cool, good to know
02:49
Eric Arsenault
Maybe it depends on the futarchy bet. I feel like some may only be validated over longer periods of time, whereas others would lead to more immediate results
03:03
Zack
Once Amoveo is bigger, then VEO will be less volatile and we will be able to have more accurate long-term contracts.
11:09
maybe this will help people switch to using trustless stablecoins
11:19
Mr Flintstone
99 cents isn’t too bad but idk how accurate cmc is
11:20
Zack
There was a scandal today. They are saying tether doesn't have 100% backing
11:20
Mr Flintstone
looks like it’s 97 cents on bittrex usd pair
11:20
Zack
It was 98 cents a few minutes ago
11:20
Mr Flintstone
it’s been less before
11:20
I remember it dipped down to 85 for a sec not too long ago
11:21
Zack
It's only been 5 hours.
If they aren't 100% backed, doesn't that mean it will go to zero?
11:22
Mr Flintstone
I don’t think so
11:22
it is kind of like free banking
11:22
Zack
Can't you trade tether for $1 of eth though?
11:22
Whoever sells last will end up with nothing
11:22
Mr Flintstone
it is profitable for them to maintain the peg
11:23
even if it’s only 50% backed at any time, as long as they can finance the other half they can afford to buy the coins for close to par
11:23
Most of the time you wouldn’t have redemptions that big
11:24
there is definitely huge risk of the govt shutting them down and freezing everyone’s money
11:25
Eric Arsenault
That would be bad
11:26
Zack
an $800 million theft is crazy huge
11:27
and it is nearly a 1/3rd of the tether backing
11:27
what kind of person would steal $800 million?
11:28
Mr Flintstone
it’s definitely a bold move
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20:57
Zack
We are mining like 50 veo per day, so where is it all going?
How come there is so little on the exchange?
Our 24 hour trading volume is like 1/10th of the 24 hour block rewards
20:58
between the current price of $80 and $100 there are only 5 veo for sale
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21:19
Zack
I bet 4 more accounts with similar names will join in the next couple hours.
It seems like they always do 10 at a time.
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00:54
I am selling stablecoins.
For 10 veo, you can buy a contract that resolves in 1 month. it will be worth the lesser of $850 or 20 veo.
so for 1 veo you get $85 of stablecoins.
Notice that on
qtrade.io it currently costs $80 to buy a VEO.
Here is the page to accept this trade:
http://139.59.144.76:8080/otc_listener.html
00:56
This means I am paying 6% interest for a 1 month contract.
That is an annualized interest rate of about 107%
00:57
if someone accepts the trade soon, I can sell more contracts like this.
01:44
Mr Flintstone
since you can just go to qtrade and buy 10 veo for 800 usd or so right now, it’s basically a free 50 dollars for whoever accepts the trade (spent 800 to make 850) as long as veo doesn’t drop past 43 dollars in a month
02:31
Zack
Both.
I am willing to pay for the pizza, and I will also put some bets in the market to incentivize participation in futarchy, and we will use an Oracle to determine which pizza was eaten first.
Hopefully you can set up a web camera or something so we can verify how quickly the pizzas were eaten.
02:32
I'm sure Turkish pizzas are a lot cheaper than USA
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02:34
Zack
I guess the goal of this kind of market is to find out which pizzas to buy ahead of time. But if people started bribing each other to eat different kinds of pizza, I think it could make it hard to measure which pizza people actually like
02:37
It seems like you could be right.
Either I can't pay for the pizza, or I can't put any bets in the market.
02:40
Actually I don't know. This is more complicated than I thought.
02:42
Mr Flintstone
one should not underestimate the complexity of pizza games
02:46
Eric Arsenault
I negotiated with this conference organizer and they are willing to give Amoveo a booth for $600 USD, in case anyone wants to help VEO get exposure.
https://thefutureof.finance/
02:47
Zack
I think I won't attend any event unless I am getting paid
02:47
Someone could set up a dac and offer to go.
02:48
But I am not going to contribute to this at this time.
02:48
We don't have product market fit, so advertising is a waste.
02:52
haha, this could get entertaining
02:54
can we get a sponsorship from a pizza company to do a blockchain experiment to see which of their pizzas are tastiest?
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02:55
Zack
ok, that is the 10th name. so I will delete them, because I am fairly confident that this is a batch of fake accounts.
02:57
Šea
Uh wrong entry message man
02:59
Zack
Even if he is real, I still wouldn't pay for any advertising at this time.
03:00
I saved him time, he can move on to the next customer.
03:00
Šea
Maybe introducing a ban bot? Saw in other channels where people need to confirm they are not bots in 10sec after they joined?
03:00
Would it help or Amoveo telegram spammers are more sophisticated?
03:01
Zack
I think we are doing fine.
03:01
Šea
You are, no question 😁
03:05
Zack
I am offering over 100% annual interest if you hold 10 veo worth of USD stablecoins on Amoveo for 1 month.
03:11
Eric Arsenault
tempting with the recent pullback
03:11
I'm surprised there are no bears jumping on it
03:11
Zack
you can buy more veo and get $50 for free
03:12
9.4 veo on Qtrade are for sale below $80
03:14
Eric Arsenault
I agree advertising isn't useful at this point, but exposure could help accelerate product discovery / finding PMF
03:15
Zack
I think it is more efficient to just talk to your target user base
03:42
Zack
should I try to sell the stablecoins on twitter?
04:08
A K
Like, an Initial Stablecoin Offering ?
04:09
I would try offering some ridiculously good deal
04:09
Zack
better than 107% annualized interest rate?
04:10
Eric Arsenault
And see how much you need to offer to get someone to bite
04:10
Zack
its only been like an hour right? lets give it some more time. I know there are some regulars on this telegram forum who would buy at this price.
04:11
Eric Arsenault
True
04:12
Zack
I think that anyone who can afford it is either incentivized to buy my contract, or to undercut me and sell a similar contract as a better price.
04:14
Mr Flintstone
I think so. lots of people may expect coins to perform better than 6% in the next month, but certainly I’d think some don’t expect that
04:15
Zack
It will almost certainly do better than usd over the next month, and people hold trillions of those.
04:17
Mr Flintstone
there is also the veo price risk factor
04:17
if veo drops below 40, you end up losing money
04:18
Mr Flintstone
so the probability of veo not dropping below 40 in a month needs to be higher than 1/1.06 ~ 95%
04:19
Zack
its been below $40 a lot less than 5% of it's history
04:19
Mr Flintstone
would you be willing to bet at 20:1 odds that veo doesn’t drop below 40 in a month?
04:20
More specifically, is not below 40 in a month
04:22
Zack
isn't it more like 10:1
If it dropped to $30, they still have 75% of their investment left
04:22
Mr Flintstone
yeah, it isnt actually binary
04:23
but losing vs making money is
04:23
Zack
so you think I should up it to $90 per stablecoin?
04:24
410% annualized interest rate
04:24
Mr Flintstone
idk, there could be lots of reasons why someone wouldn’t take the trade aside from the interest rate
04:24
I’d wait some time and see if someone takes it
04:24
perhaps we are not describing it intuitively
04:25
so someone doesn’t realize it’s a riskless 50 dollars provided veo doesn’t completely fall off a cliff in the next month
04:25
Mr Flintstone
maybe you could even offer binary option insurance on the contract breaking
04:26
but that would lock up more of your capital
04:26
Zack
Would that mean I am selling 2 contracts than cancel out to give away free arbitrage?
04:26
Mr Flintstone
you are long in both of them
04:26
Zack
Can't we wrap that all into one contract then?
04:27
Zack
What would the Oracle question be?
04:27
Mr Flintstone
the scalar output would add a value * 1 if veo < 40 or * 0 if veo > 40
04:28
or something like that
04:28
then you would need to lock up a disproportionate amount
04:29
Zack
oh, this is the same as making the lower margin wider. I just need to lock up more veo in the contract
04:29
Mr Flintstone
yep, then it is scalar across everything instead of scalar + binary
04:29
Zack
so instead of being $40, it could be $10
04:29
but you’d need to lock up like 4x the veo?
04:30
Zack
we can use the current P2P interface for making that kind of contract
04:30
Mr Flintstone
866/ 10 = 86 veo
04:33
you could also offer different kinds of exposure, like you could do stable oil exposure or something
04:33
oil volatility isn’t close to veo
04:33
and maybe someone wants to long it
04:34
Eric Arsenault
Stable Pork belly please
04:34
Mr Flintstone
stable lean hogs
04:34
Mr Flintstone
lean hogs are an actual traded futures instrument
04:35
or you could just ask people what they want to long
04:35
then just give them the exposure, and you get to long veo as a side effect
04:35
Eric Arsenault
True
04:36
Most people in this community would want to long VEO
04:36
Mr Flintstone
aside from veo haha
04:37
if you want to long veo, sell someone exposure in anything else and there you go
04:37
Eric Arsenault
Zack, would you be willing to hold stablecoins if people want to long VEO?
04:37
Mr Flintstone
I doubt it, I think he wants to long veo
04:38
i can’t imagine using veo to directly short it in size, seems counter intuitive since you are literally driving the value proposition of the platform you’re shorting
04:39
at least right now when there’s basically no activity
04:39
Eric Arsenault
yeah that’s a weird concept. Maybe just to hedge against short term volatility
04:41
Zack
I have a feeling that the price of veo is headed upwards in the near future.
If you would give me $90 per veo, I would buy some stablecoin from you.
I can make the contract if you want.
04:45
Would you rather have stable BTC instead of stable USD?
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05:14
Eric Arsenault
I was just curious. From the survey results, many people wanted to go long VEO. Maybe make this contract too and see if they put their money where their mouth is.
05:14
Zack is our market maker
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09:28
Zack
I paid $20 for this oracle, and I am offering over 100% annualized interest. How come no one accepts the trade?
09:28
O K
Did you try Twitter
09:29
O K
People here hold veo because they expect a return greater than what you're offering, and suspect it may happen within a month
09:29
Maybe someone from twitter doesn't hold any veo, and doesn't expect it to crash in price
09:29
Zack
you can buy more veo from qtrade and get $50 practically for free
09:30
O K
Not me personally, but perhaps someone
09:31
Zack
there are still like 8 hours left to accept the trade
09:31
I can't embed a file into a tweet
09:31
Mr Flintstone
pastebin
09:32
but you should probably explain how the acceptance process works somewhere
09:32
You should explain why it's not too good to be true, i.e. why you're doing it, so people don't think it's a scam
09:32
Zack
I think ill just send them to discord
09:36
As if I would spend years building this blockchain for financial derivatives, just so I could make 1 scam contract for $800.
09:36
Eric Arsenault
😂 hahaha
09:36
O K
Why are you offering such a high return?
09:37
Mr Flintstone
it’s a one month contract, the return is like 6% in a month or something which is a lot annualized
09:37
Eric Arsenault
I think you just keep offering better return every day until someone bites
09:37
Eric Arsenault
As an experiment
09:37
Mr Flintstone
so Zack can take the veo in the contract if veo goes up in price
09:37
Eric Arsenault
Doesn’t need to be 800
09:37
Mr Flintstone
and the other person still makes a return on their USD
09:37
6% in a month is good return
09:38
O K
It's "too good" to an outsider. I understand why he's doing it.
09:38
Eric Arsenault
But if nobody bites: either market wants more, or you are not reaching enough ppl
09:38
Zack
I offered less a few days ago, and no one accepted.
If Amoveo is to succeed, a necessary step is that people start making these contracts to trade stablecoins with each other.
09:39
Mr Flintstone
ok, it isn’t risk free for Zack though
09:39
he could lose 10 veo
09:39
not sure that is too good
09:39
and if he loses 10 veo he takes a huge L in the rest of his veo holdings
09:40
O K
It's just my opinion that he should post it on twitter and, if he's going to put the annualized return, explain that it's an experiment.
09:40
Zack
Some people lead by ordering others around.
I try to lead by example.
I am trying to show you all how to make profit using Amoveo derivatives.
09:41
Sure it is an experiment, but I am still trying to profit.
09:41
O K
I remember now why I don't spend time here
09:42
Eric Arsenault
I don’t get it, it’s a good discussion.
09:43
Zack
I love constructive criticism, it is an opportunity for growth.
But this is vague criticism that doesn't give me any information I could use to improve.
09:43
Eric Arsenault
Q: how many people do we reach per day on TG / Discord?
09:44
Zack
Instead of reaching twice as many people, I think it would be more useful to find out why Eric Arsenault and Potato don't buy the other side of my contract.
I am giving away $50 with almost no risk.
09:44
Eric Arsenault
There’s can’t be more than 100 people who are active?
09:45
You mean like, take a survey ?
09:45
Zack
If we reach 1000x more people, and they are all as silent as you two are being, then we wont be any better off.
09:45
this isn't a survey, I am asking exactly one person. You Eric.
09:46
Eric Arsenault
For me, I would want better rate for the inconvenience
09:46
Zack
Why don't you take the free money?
09:46
Eric Arsenault
Also I’m not that liquid
09:46
Zack
sure, if you don't have the money on hand, you can't do it
09:46
Eric Arsenault
I would just convert to CAD if I wanted stable
09:46
If I did have money👆
09:47
Zack
you would rather miss out on the $50 and just hold CAD in a centralized bank?
09:47
So you are willing to pay a 100% annualized interest rate for the privilege of using a centralized trusted bank.
09:48
Eric Arsenault
My assets are in crypto
09:48
Zack
Paying 6% a month, just to leave your money in a bank.
I think I have heard of mortgages less expensive than that.
09:48
Eric Arsenault
I think those assets are going to rise
09:48
So I would rather hold on
09:48
Zack
if that is the case, then why don't you sell stablecoins at a better price than me?
09:49
Eric Arsenault
If I wanted stablecoin, I would have converted to DAI or USDT
09:49
Zack
if you like veo so much, you should be willing to pay even higher interest rate than me for the privilege of holding more veo risk
09:49
Eric Arsenault
You are right, in theory I should
09:50
Zack
I don't see how advertising veo to a few thousand people would bring me any nearer to understanding why you don't either buy or sell stablecoins.
09:51
Eric Arsenault
The truth is I don’t know where market is heading in the short term. I would rather just stay diversified I guess?
09:51
Maybe it is friction
09:52
I would need to move bitcoin or eth around, but VEO on qtrade, bet with you
09:52
Zack
you have the least friction of anyone. you have used the P2P derivative tool a bunch of times.
09:52
Eric Arsenault
Then after the contract ends...am I going to move it back to ETH/BTC?
09:53
Yes, this part is easiest
09:54
I’m imagining people are relatively happy with their portfolios (or they would change it), it’s a lot of work to get stablecoin within Amoveo if I am planning to just hold the original asset again once done
09:54
Zack
yes, maybe converting from fiat->btc->veo->smart contract ->veo->btc->fiat is just too much work, and $50 of profit doesn't cover it all.
09:54
so maybe instead of offering a better price, I should try selling a contract for 30 veo.
So they can earn $150 for the effort.
