09:54
Eric Arsenault
It would only make sense if I wanted to hold VEO long term
10:03
These are all very good questions, would be good to know why others aren’t participating either
10:04
Zack
yeah, it is the least you guys can do to support Amoveo
10:05
tell us why you wont buy my contract
10:08
Mr Flintstone
i want to see someone else do it
10:09
Zack
have you tried out the p2p derivatives tool recently?
I have a feeling that feedback from Mr Flinstone would be better than the average user.
10:10
Mr Flintstone
not in a month or so
10:11
Zack
I guess I could send you some screenshots from testing to accomplish the same goal
Deleted invited Deleted Account
10:34
I can answer any questions.
10:35
It is a contract for USD stablecoins, not for fish.
10:35
I can help you make some financial derivatives based on the price of fish if you want
10:36
you can see info here
10:51
sanket
Zack I think most people wouldn't understand stable coin.
Even if they do, they don't want to short VEO. 6% is nothing for such volatile coin.
10:54
Zack
People are willing to pay like 14% annualized to hold DAI stablecoin on ethereum.
So why wouldn't they be willing to get paid 100% annualized to hold stablecoin on Amoveo?
10:54
that is 114% better than dai
10:55
if you get 114% richer every year, after 10 years you will be more than 1000x richer.
10:56
im not exactly sure how to calculate the cost of dai, I just know the cdf unlock fee is like 14%
10:57
It seems to me that getting a active stablecoin market running on Amoveo is a necessary step on the path to success.
10:58
if the stablecoin is never working, then amoveo can't achieve produce market fit, so there wont be much price rise in the next year anyway
11:00
looks like it is $82.36 per veo on qtrade now.
So you only get like 3.2% growth for the month, which is like 46% annualized growth.
11:08
it expires in about 8 hours.
I will keep making more.
If there is something else you want to bet on, you can just ask. we can build contracts to bet on whatever you want.
11:09
we can also do leveraged bets.
So you can short veo, or buy >2x long veo.
11:15
Eric Arsenault
How did you set expiry?
11:15
Zack
it just defaults to 100. I need to add that.
11:15
Eric Arsenault
Then oracle is no longer valid?
11:16
Zack
no, just the offer for the smart contract
11:16
the oracle lasts for about a month longer
11:16
Eric Arsenault
Oh okay got it
11:16
Zack
JeYvXdW4ttPnAnKv4diIDIvgMb4UUWJ5Bg0DMx8OQDw=
We are using this oracle
11:17
it says it is measuring the price of veo on May 24th
Deleted invited Deleted Account
14:30
sanket
Zack two things I see as problem :
A month is a long time for volatile coin like VEO. Not many are willing to short VEO and most of your contracts in offer are short VEO.
I really wanted to test the Amoveo interface and it definitely was easy (once I figured it out with your help) but not everyone can. Dai has made it so easy. Something like
instadapp.com would be good.
Another thing - i hope you remember that 114% annual isn't anything. The risk of missing VEO's upside is much higher. I lost 4.5 VEO on a 10 veo contract with you. That's a big number.
14:31
I think a nice interface would make use it. Also some prediction market like veil can help.
Sol Mate invited Sol Mate
Deleted invited Deleted Account
20:57
Zack
so you want to go long-veo this time? I can make contracts with you in either direction.
The interface has gotten better since you last tried it out.
20:59
im not sure what you mean by this.
Veil is not a prediction market.
Veil is using Augur as a prediction market.
Amoveo already has prediction market tools.
21:03
Deleted Account
why didnt amoveo focus on creating a good prediction market platform ?
21:04
Zack
Amoveo is a good prediction market platform.
Is there something you want to predict? I can help you use Amoveo to get a good prediction.
21:05
prediction markets are just one application of derivatives. Since Amoveo is a good derivatives platform, that necessarily means it is also a good prediction market platform.
21:12
great. can I get $95 of stablecoin per veo from you? How many veo worth of stablecoin do you want to sell?
21:12
Deleted Account
i mean it's not as accessible as augur predition market, right?
21:13
Zack
correct. if you go long veo, that means I am buying stablecoins from you.
You are taking some extra veo risk from me so you can have more veo price risk.
21:14
I think amoveobook has integrations with the browser to make it pretty easy.
converting btc -> veo and back is harder than btc -> eth and back.
21:14
Deleted Account
for it to be used by many people the platform has to be user friendly
21:15
should i trust amoveo book? never tried it
21:15
Zack
there are 2 ways of doing prediction markets, the lightning hub version where a central server runs a market and trades are matched in single price batches, also the P2P version that is currently being more actively developed.
21:16
We are mostly focused on the P2P version now because it seems like it will work better for very low volume markets, so it is a better tool for bootstrapping our first use cases.
21:16
amoveobook only the lightning hub version, not P2P
21:17
Deleted Account
i think prediction market is also one of best use case for amoveo to start with but perhaps it has to be user friendly. it should be easy for people to figure out .
21:17
Zack
My contract to sell stablecoin at $85 has expired, and no one accepted it. So I guess I will try making a couple more contracts.
I am thinking I will offer to sell long-veo and stablecoin at the same time, so hopefully someone will accept one of the offers.
21:18
is there something you want to predict? We can do this right away if you want to use it.
21:18
great. I need a little time to split my veo into more accounts so I can build offers for different contracts at the same time.
How many USD worth of long-veo do you want to buy? I will set up the contract for your needs exactly.
21:26
Deleted Account
i have to think about what i want to predict first.
21:35
bet on number of members for a telegram or discord group? bet on number of retweet for a tweet on twitter etc? im not sure whether that's something worth betting on.
21:39
e.g. amoveo discord group will have 10000members at the end of 2019
21:39
Zack
it is like 10x more expensive to do a futarchy market for a continuous value, like the number of telegram members, vs a binary value like whether or not we have >1500 members.
21:40
the end of 2019 is too far away, the veo price risk will dominate the contract and make it invalid.
Because veo is so volatile right now, we can't have markets that last longer than a month or so.
21:40
Deleted Account
isee.
22:01
Zack
you don't need to build anything, you can use the browser light node to participate in smart contracts.
22:02
I got distracted, im making the contracts now.
22:08
this is to sell you long-veo at a price of $95 per veo
22:08
Deleted Account
there's service called beeminder,, i guess it can be implemented on amoveo too
22:09
Zack
my side of the contract with be worth either 7 veo or $95*3.5, whichever is less.
And you will get all extra veo.
22:10
Zack
I can't see how this relates to Amoveo. This is not a place for you to spam advertisements.
22:12
i think it's related? it also bet on future outcome, but for different purpose..
22:15
the idea of beeminer or anything similar is bet on your own future behavior
/goal, if it's not achieved you will lose money
22:16
Zack
bee minder is a tool so that you can let a centralized service take away your money from you to punish you for failing to achieve your goals.
Amoveo is a decentralized platform for derivatives.
If you want to make a smart contract that can send me veo, and it is impossible for me to lose any veo, I will happily accept that smart contract.
But you can't ask the oracle "Do I know how to speak Spanish??" because that isn't something oracle reporters can look up online to report on.
22:17
Deleted Account
sometimes amoveo can be used for that too i think
22:19
Deleted Account
for example someone want lose weight , if he bet on amoveo xxx weight by y date, do you recommend creating for market like this....
22:20
Zack
Here is a contract where I am offering to sell 10 veo of stablecoins.
It will either be worth $900 or 20 veo on May 24th.
That means I am offering 190% annualized interest if you hold USD stablecoin for a month.
22:21
it isn't possible for the oracle reporters to look up how much you weigh online. So you can't use Amoveo to make a contract that depends on your weight.
22:22
Deleted Account
ah..i see!....
22:27
there are things that are measurale tho. there are online time tracking software that will record how much time has been spent on each software. these services are centralized too. but what they track is accurate.
22:29
Zack
yeah, like I said before. if you want to make a smart contract that can pay me veo, and there is no possibility of me losing veo, I will happily accept that contract.
You can use the P2P derivatives tool to make contracts like that.
22:33
Deleted Account
ok i think i can try to create one when i have more time. time tracking is too easy.
22:36
but this type of contract is usually between 2 people? if a lot of people want use it for that purpose, everyone will have to find someone to accept the contract?
22:38
Zack
Amoveo smart contracts are inside the lightning network.
Every smart contract is between 2 people because every channel is between 2 people.
22:38
I will accept any smart contract that can potentially give me veo and has no possibility of causing me to lose veo. I will accept thousands of these contracts per day if enough people want to send them to me.
22:39
Deleted Account
😂 it can be automated?
22:40
Zack
I am not going to bother automating it until I am receiving more than 1 offer like this per day, because it only takes like 1 minute of work for me to accept an offer like this, and it would take a few hours to build the automation tool.
22:41
if you are offering free money at no risk, I am sure there are many people in the community besides me who are willing to take the free money off your hands
22:41
Deleted Account
i see
Terry Brazeau invited Terry Brazeau
22:59
Zack
you need to save the channel state before you can close this browser window
23:00
the channel state is necessary to enforce the outcome of the contract
23:00
it says "save channel data to file"
After that you are done
23:03
I see the new_channel tx is in the mempool, looks like you did it correctly
23:03
Was any step confusing? Is there anything I should change to make it easier?
23:06
ok, thanks for trying out Amoveo. I am available if you have any questions or concerns. The next step will happen after May 24th
23:06
what does this mean? Like an api?
23:07
Alfred
Yes, can I like call your node API and reproduce that same page on my own service let's say
23:07
I guess this is it?
23:08
it is all in javascript, so it doesn't have an api.
But you can write code that calls javascript functions to do everything the light node does.
23:09
this is for using the api from a full node.
The P2P derivatives tool is all in javascript, it doesn't touch the full node.
23:10
Zack
great, I am here to help if you have any questions.
23:12
Alfred
But for example when I click on the "sync with network button" I guess I have to interact with a full node is that it?
23:13
Zack
It looks like I will trade 2 contracts today at different prices so that I am earning $22.50 by arbitrage.
23:13
Alfred
so if I want to make my own derivative service on top of amoveo, somehow I have to extend the light-node code or recreate my own which uses a full node?
23:14
Zack
the light node uses the full node's api for many things. pushing txs, downloading headers, downloading merkel proofs, etc.
The light node doesn't have tools to make or accept P2P derivatives, so merely contacting the full node api isn't enough to do what the light node does.
Using javascript functions from the light node you can do everything that the light node does.
23:14
What do you mean? just use Amoveo.
If you want more features added to Amoveo, talk to me and I will help add them.
23:15
Alfred
I'm just trying to figure out a bit how that work, I don't intend to create such a service ahah
23:16
Zack
I see you still haven't accepted the contract. is everything going ok? Feel free to ask questions.
23:16
mm
No idea how to accept it. Looking at docs, but it’s not very clear to me.
23:16
Zack
If you want to add more features, I think the best way is to do pull requests and put more code into the light node, or to clone the light node and add more features in your own branch.
23:18
1) sync headers
2) load a private key with at least 10 veo
3) load the contract offer that I posted to telegram and discord
4) accept the contract
23:18
Alfred
Sure, I just imagine on the long term there will most likely be multiple implementations for it.
Let's say I want to make it in another language for example or using some fancy js frameworks
23:18
Zack
this contract offer
23:19
The javascript I wrote is very vanilla, so it should be compatible with whatever framework you want.
The code is fairly simple, it shouldn't be too difficult to rewrite it in another language.
Most of the complicated stuff is already replicated between erlang and javascript, so you have 2 examples to work with.
23:20
mm
How it’s secure if I’m loading my priv key on someone’s server?
23:20
you are right, it isn't secure to download the light node from a server that way
23:20
Alfred
Yea sure :)
I'll clone it and if I have time will try to make it a bit more friendly
23:21
mm
Ah, it works from local node too. Great
23:21
It explains a lot :)
23:23
Zack
if you download the light node from github, you need to copy/paste the IP address of some full node into the interface so that it knows where to download the headers and stuff from.
This is the IP for a node I maintain
139.59.144.76You should be able to use any full node's ip, as long as the full node is fully synced with the network.
https://veoscan.io/ veoscan lists 17 fully synced full nodes that you can use
23:26
Alfred
funny overall, let's see if my long will be a winner :)
23:27
mm
What does it mean : “the price of usd in veo on qtrade from 0 to 0.03”
23:28
As veo price is about 83usd
23:28
Zack
the oracle can measure any value between 0 and 0.3
currently it is $80 for 1 veo, so that means 1 USD is worth like 0.012 veo.
if 1 USD was 0.03 veo, that would mean 1 veo is $33.33
23:30
The oracle has to be formatted "what is the price of X in VEO" instead of "what is the price of VEO in X?"
Because I could only write the smart contract to accept one of those 2, and I choose the first version.
23:31
What do you mean by “bit number 0”?
23:32
Zack
each amoveo oracle can only provide 1 bit of data.
So when we need a scalar oracle, we make 10 binary oracles. we encode the scalar value as a 10-bit binary.
23:32
the oracle you looked up is the first bit of the 10
23:34
mm
How to calculate oracle payout in this case?
23:35
Zack
this contract will be worth whichever is lesser between: $900 of veo or 20 veo.
23:35
im not sure if that answers your question
23:36
I’m trying to understand: “return P * 1024/0.03 bit number 0”
23:36
Zack
the output is a 10-bit number, so that means it can be any integer from 0 to 1023 inclusive.
23:37
but we are interested in the values from 0 -> 0.03
23:37
so we have to do a mapping from 0,0.03 -> 0,1023
23:37
mm
So it’s really <0,2> number?
23:39
Zack
for example, if the price on Math 24th is $100, then that means the price of USD in veo is 0.01
which corresponds to the 341, which in binary is 1010101010
So the oracles will return true, false, true, false, true, false, true, false, true, false
23:41
mm
Why 0.03 is max price?
23:41
Thanks, I think I understand it now. But it’s not very intuitive
23:41
Zack
There is a trade off between precision and range, because it is only a 10-bit oracle.
So the difference between two adjacent values is 1/1024th of the range
23:42
if we have a range of 0->0.03, it can be much more precise instead of the range 0 -> 1
23:42
for our smart contract there are margins, so we only consider a subset of the possible range that the oracle can output.
So having too wide of a range is a waste.
23:43
mm
But there’s a risk o Veo falling below ~33usd and losing money
23:45
Zack
our smart contract has a lower margin of $47.50
because we both are locking up only 10 veo.
23:45
mm
Accepted. Now I have a channel state
23:45
Zack
if you wanted to have a margin at $33, I would have to lock up like 15 veo instead of 10
23:45
mm
How can I review it again from state?
23:45
Zack
I see your tx has appeared in the mempool, you did it correctly
23:47
it is not so simple to do this now, but that is a great suggestion. I will add a tool so you can easily view the state of your active contracts.
23:47
for now I keep some written records of my active contracts so that I do not forget.
23:47
mm
And I can’t see my Veo locked in a channel. Balance is still the same
23:47
Zack
it takes some time for the tx to be included in a block
23:47
if you look up your balance in explorer.html, you can see it is 10 veo lower
23:47
mm
Ah, gotcha. I recalled it was faster in the past
23:48
Maybe I misremember
23:48
Zack
that is because explorer.html shows your 0th confirmation balance
23:50
mm
Only when I use explorer on your node
23:50
I’m on the same block in my light node and it’s still 36 Veo
23:50
Zack
all the full node explorers should say the same thing
23:51
only the full nodes have mempools with the txs to be included in the next block, so only full nodes can look up your 0th confirmation balance
23:51
the light node requires a merkle proof connected to a valid header to look up a balance.
The merkel proof and header don't exist until the tx is included in a block.
23:52
mm
I saw current heigh increasing, so I was expecting it’s included already
23:54
Zack
the new_channel tx is still in the mempool, it hasn't been included in a block yet
00:12
Zack
Today has been very productive. We have 5 new great suggestions on how to make the P2P derivatives interface more usable.
00:28
Alfred
One other thing I was thinking, I don't seem to find a place where I can see open contracts
00:29
Zack
each state channel is private to the 2 participants of that channel. other people cannot see what they are betting on.
00:29
Alfred
Which makes perfect sense
00:29
Zack
veoscan can tell you the total amount of money locked in channels.
00:30
Alfred
I'd like to see something like a marketplace for contracts somehow
00:30
Zack
yeah, we are making plans for a website where you can pay a small amount of money, and they will list your trades for other people to accept
00:30
Alfred
Ok good then
00:31
Zack
for now discord
#trading channel is probably where trading will be happening
00:33
Alfred
Overall I think that's very cool, just needs a lot of polish and ecosystem empowerement, but I guess it's a bit early to talk about all that
00:35
Zack
here are the things I am thinking we will add next:
1) a tool to review the state of your active contracts
2) the stablecoin interface should allow selling and buying of stablecoins instead of only buying.
3) we shouldn't have to display the oracle upper limit in stablecoin bets
4) otc_derivatives page should display all the same info about your contract as otc_listener
5) adding salt to the contracts to increase privacy
6) a website for listing trade offers
00:37
Alfred
These are good. #6 is an absolute must imo
00:37
Deleted Account
veo can be use to trade finantial derivatives ? e.g. trading btc with 20
:1 leverage? it's not clear to me how it works.
00:39
Deleted Account
how is it better than bitmex?
00:39
Alfred
one long term thing that will be crucial imo is the ability to create contracts very smoothly.
Let's say I want to use VEO for my betting/derivative platform. I will need an easy wrapper to integrate the contract creation on my service
00:39
Deleted Account
similar?
00:40
Zack
bitmex is a centralized exchange. they can steal all your cryptocurrency that you put onto their website.
Amoveo is trust-free
00:42
the light node is all in vanilla javascript, so it should be easy to integrate any parts of it into your website
00:44
Deleted Account
not only btc , also gold silver shares fiat derivatives? ... i remember i saw CFD somewhere
00:45
Alfred
I've been lookng into it, and it's not exactly what I would call "easy" right now imo 😅
Sure it's not hard either, but it'll need a lot of decoupling from the HTML etc
basically turn this maybe into a library
00:46
I am here to make any changes that could help you. Just tell me what exactly you want from your library, and I can modify the code to make it easier for you.
00:47
Alfred
Sure, I'll be looking into this more and play around with the code a little bit before I make any further suggestions
00:47
Zack
great, thanks for your interest in Amoveo
00:52
Deleted Account
what amoveo offer' : trust free gambling, betting, prediction market, cfd trading, financial derivative market etc. does accurately describe what amoveo can do?
00:55
Zack
all those things you list are financial derivatives
00:55
Amoveo is a platform for any financial derivatives
00:56
some use cases that I am particularly excited about:
futarchy, crowd-funding, lie-detecting
00:58
Deleted Account
a big problem of traditional trading platforms is that lots of them are bucket shops, although they look nice on the surface. even for crypto, the centralized crypto exchanges can also be dishonest. when you trade with traditional plarforms, it is fast tho
00:59
Zack
With amoveo if you and your partner already have veo in your accounts, then you can make a new smart contract practically instantly.
I can generate the contract and send it to you, and you can sign it and then publish it on-chain.
It is just 1 tx, so there is no waiting around for confirmations.
01:01
Deleted Account
i see. how is this different from decentralized crypo exchanges? i think it's ok for me to describe amoveo as decentralized cfd, gambling, binary option (etc) platform
01:03
Zack
Amoveo only has contracts priced in VEO.
I think that a decentralized exchange is like for trading ETH for Rep on ethreum, it is for swapping different currencies.
Amoveo is for financial derivatives, contracts that settle only in VEO. The only currency in Amoveo is VEO.
01:03
Eric Arsenault
This would be good
01:12
Deleted Account
that seems similar to traditional trading platforms. difference is amove use veo instead of usd, and it's trust free.
01:13
Spike Spiegel
Yup - there is no magic here. Trust minimised oracles / markets / payment channels are big things
01:14
Zack
yes, I think Amoveo is more similar to traditional markets for exchanging risk.
It is kind of a back-to-the-basics decentralized finance platform.
01:14
Deleted Account
im wondering will companies institutions begin to use it when it's more mature. corporations are biggest traders.
01:14
Zack
we use the tried and true tools instead of doing wacky experiments
01:18
At first I think we need to focus on the kinds of derivatives that aren't accessible today.
Like serving people who are legally restricted from accessing these tools.
USD is so stable, it will be hard to compete against established derivatives markets until VEO is a lot bigger.
01:18
Deleted Account
the most obvious thing amoveo is lack of for now is UI, design, userfriendliness. apple / iphone is good example.
01:18
Zack
but eventually I think trustless tools will outcompete them, because we can circumvent a lot of legal costs.
01:54
Oleg Kislitsyn
But what about
https://myveowallet.com ? Is something wrong with it? It lacks some features like channels, but it supports all of the major features + ui is very intuitive
02:03
Deleted Account
i havent tried this
Lukas Schönbächler invited Lukas Schönbächler
02:38
Zack
For 9 veo I am selling a long-veo contract. This will double your leverage against veo.
It gives me $95 of stablecoins for each of the 9 veo I invest, and all the extra money in the channel goes to you.
You can learn about amoveo here
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
02:40
For 9 veo I am selling a long-veo contract. This will double your leverage against veo.
It gives me $95 of stablecoins for each of the 9 veo I invest, and all the extra money in the channel goes to you.
You can learn about amoveo here
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
02:46
Jethro4u
Hello, I saw your tweet. How is receiving the lesser of 10 VEO or $900 work out to 100% annualized?
02:46
Maybe I'm missing something...
02:46
Zack
did I say lesser of 10? i should have said 20
02:46
where did I write that?
02:48
Veo costs $82.50 to buy on
qtrade.io, and you can use 1 veo to buy $90 of stablecoin from me, but you have to wait till may 24th to get those stablecoins.
(90/82.5)^12 is like 190% annualized
02:48
Jethro4u
no i misread, my bad
02:49
but the contract does have margins. I am only locking up as many veo in the contract as you are, so you can't gain more than 20 veo from the contract because that is all the veo in the contract.
02:49
Jethro4u
ahhh, ya didn't see the length of the contract
02:53
we have over 3000 followers on telegram
02:55
Jethro4u
Gotcha. So if this was a stock & options position, it would be equivalent to a covered call + long ATM put + short OTM put (otm 50% below current value)... does that sound right?
02:57
Mr Flintstone
it’s weird cuz it’s like you’re shorting stock with the same stock as the collateral
02:58
so not sure you can model payout with vanilla options
03:00
Zack
I don't know much financial jargon
03:02
Mr Flintstone
basically if veo > 45 you get 90 dollars per veo back, if veo < 45 you get 2*price per veo back
03:04
Zack
For 10 veo, you get a contract that is worth the lesser of 20 veo or $900 on May 24th.
03:09
It seems like I am getting customers for both long and short contracts at about the same rate, and people are willing to pay the 5.5% arbitrage
03:09
Being a market maker is fun
03:12
so I get 2.75% growth for the month every time I manage to sell both kinds of contracts.
Which works out to around 38% annualized growth by acting as a market maker.
03:13
and that is 38% measured in terms of veo.
I would have 38% more veo at the end of a year.
03:19
Jethro4u
It's similar to quanto options, like on Deribit, I think.
03:20
Zack
Amoveo is a platform for trustless derivatives. you are never trusting someone to hold your money for you and not rob you.
03:20
that is why we use a blockchain.
03:23
Jethro4u
Sure, I just mean the risk profile of this transaction.
03:25
If VEO drops more than 50% in USD value by May 24th, its a losing trade. Otherwise, it makes money.
03:26
Zack
yes, that is how the stablecoin contracts work.
03:27
Jethro4u
Got it. Thank you for answering my questions
03:45
MH
Only 1364 ppl here
03:47
Are you aware of Fusion. Sounds you are doing something similar to Time-lock tech they are building...
03:53
Eric Arsenault
Fusion enables derivatives but it’s very different
03:58
Zack
I meant twitter. The other T website haha
04:24
What main difs do you see?
04:30
The author of this paper doesn't know the difference between decentralization and trustlessness. So his conclusions don't have value.
04:31
hewwo
What's the difference between decentralisation and trustlessness ?
04:31
Spike Spiegel
Yup - my point is that bXz doesn't even exist but they are able to push propaganda to get investors, users and hype for their product and there is nobody to debunk them
04:32
sounds like digging your own grave.
04:33
My idea of success is building a useful product.
I don't care how much money I can convince people to dump into Amoveo in the short run.
04:35
hewwo
Is this paper from you ?
04:36
hewwo
Is it based on previous researches from other people ? Your views on what trust is and how it plays I mean.
04:37
"Theory of trust" suggests that
04:37
Zack
yes, I am just giving written form to what are already standard practices in blockchain software development.
04:37
hewwo
There should be sources of the works you're based yours on then.
04:38
Because as it is it looks like a bit light tho, especially when you say this guy statement above has no value because he doesn't know about your paper.
04:38
While, to me, it looks like semantic.
04:38
Zack
I linked to a paper from Vitalik that says the same thing
04:41
hewwo
That's not really how reasearch work. The name of your paper and the way you pushed away the hackermoon paper sugges that you don't base all your work on a single source and I, as a curious and not easily convinced person, would expect more than 200 unsourced lines for you to push away someone views just because he dare to not know about your own personal semantics.
04:42
Not saying that what you do, but damn, if you link one of your paper, include some sources in it because it was weird.
04:43
hewwo
I'm not saying you're wrong tho.
04:44
Zack
im happy to discuss the technology if you have questions about it, but I am not publishing this in any research journal, and I am not planning on improving it to meet those standards. It is one of hundreds of documents that I maintain to help develop a language to communicate about Amoveo.
04:45
There are plenty of people who are publishing blockchain research, I am an entrepreneur not an academic.
04:46
if you want peer reviewed evidence to any of these claims, then look at one of the many other links I have provided you with.
04:46
I see no reason to write yet another paper like this, when so many already exist.
05:34
Zack
looks like they have a testnet, and they have a plan to be able to move other cryptocurrencies on and off of their new blockchain, and they have a tool so you can be rewarded for staking.
I don't see anything related to financial derivatives or prediction markets here.
I am thinking you could be a spammer.
05:34
They do? I don't see anything like that on their website.
06:21
I have not dug into it too much, but derivatives have been mentioned quite a bit.
06:35
Zack
This is an announcement about collaboration with an virtual reality startup.
I don't see how VR headsets relate to derivatives.
Sometimes the people who advertise these kinds of projects throw in random popular words without bothering to look up what the word means.
06:37
Eric Arsenault
This might indeed be the case
07:04
mm
Why these specific prices?
07:05
Zack
the scalar oracle is a wrapper on top of 10 binary oracles.
07:06
the price of a binary oracle used to be higher, and then we lowered it to this amount.
07:24
Eric Arsenault
it can be changed via futarchy
08:02
Zack
I did 4 p2p derivatives today
09:25
Eric Arsenault
Awesome: how many long VEO vs stablecoins?
09:25
Zack
I sold 20 Veo worth of stablecoin and 3.5 Veo of long-veo contracts.
09:31
Eric Arsenault
What derivatives would be useful for these restricted regions? Stablecoins in inflation prone areas are good... I wonder if farmers have access to derivatives to hedge risk in these areas
09:32
I would imagine most large scale farmers have access to these tools?
09:32
Zack
People in USA who are not millionaires are restricted from a lot of kinda of investments
09:32
Onion futures are illegal
09:33
Farming is highly controlled because it is a matter of national security in many places, and it is critical for buying votes in other places
09:33
Eric Arsenault
Even for farmers in the business of selling onions!?
09:33
Zack
Manipulation of the derivatives market is a popular way to subsidize agriculture
09:34
Yes of course. Only a criminal would protect their onion farming investment
09:34
If the government is using a set of derivatives to subsidize something, we have no hope of competing. They are selling below cost.
09:34
Eric Arsenault
This makes a lot of sense
09:35
Zack
But if a set of derivatives are outlawed for a class of people, that is a good sign of opportunity
09:35
Eric Arsenault
*great* sign
09:36
I will go talk to some blueberry farmers I know to try to get more info and their perspective
09:37
Zack
Blueberries are usually a fairly local crop right? Is the market big enough for our oracle to know the prices?
09:37
I guess they make blueberry jelly somewhere
09:37
There is probably a big market there
09:38
How about we try and get some CEO s fired
09:38
Like Robin Hanson likes to talk about
09:39
Eric Arsenault
It’s a great application but there are big challenges with getting people with knowledge to participate in that
09:39
Once PMs are mainstream: easy
09:40
I feel like it would just be Amoveo crowd betting on our opinions
09:40
Eric Arsenault
There are huge blueberry fields around here
09:40
Zack
If the reward is big enough, it is worth it for the knowledgeable to get involved
09:41
Whoever is second in line to be CEO might be willing to cover the cost of setting it up
09:42
Eric Arsenault
This would be hard. I think there are problems we can solve for people that don’t involve politics within big orgs
09:49
Eric Arsenault
Different province but would be good to read more on this “About a third of the farmers in the province participate in the federal-provincial crop insurance program; the rest are unable to due to the high costs, Rideout said. Moreover, the payouts for the insurance program are based on revenues from the previous year, which means that those claiming for the recent damages may not get a lot due to low revenue.”
09:51
Zack
So maybe what we want is frost insurance, which is probably easier than measuring the price of blueberries anyway
09:52
Eric Arsenault
Yes, that would be easier to get data on
09:53
Or just allow them to trade blueberry futures with an upstream buyer
09:57
Who would realistically offer frost insurance? People who are knowledgeable on weather? With futures, we could build a market with farmers + upstream folks. Not sure how it would work with frost insurance
10:00
Zack
Where can oracle reporters look up a price of blueberries that is relevant to the farmers?
10:01
In Alberta the hail insurance program is crazy.
You have to buy the insurance for only like 24 hours at a time, right before the storm, otherwise it isn't worth it.
10:02
Maybe farmers want frost insurance for only a few days at a time, if the weather man predicts a cold snap
10:04
Hey, we should bet on who will die in game of thrones
10:05
Riding current events and fads could be our path to success.
10:06
It's only like $2 per binary oracle, we could choose like 10 characters to let people bet on
10:14
Maybe you just want insurance to deal with the pain of your favorite character dying
10:37
Zack
Great, the 9-veo long contract is still available
10:38
It only matters the price of Veo on March 24th.
The price between now and then does not matter
10:39
The contract is worth 9 Veo if 1 Veo is $95.
It is worth 0 if 1 Veo is $47.50 or less.
11:17
Eric Arsenault
I like this idea. Feels like Veil is trying something like this.
11:19
Zack
Is everything ok? Do you have any questions about how to use the derivatives tool?
11:20
Eric Arsenault
Example “How many Twitter followers will Andrew Yang have by June 29th, 2019?”
11:20
that sounds like good one
11:22
Deleted Account
I'm intereste to experiment as well Zach if you want to do more. I'm not very technically advanced so would be good to see if the mechanisms an ui are good enough for non technical crypto folk like me
11:24
Zack
Maybe in like 12 hours
11:48
Stig
ive joined recently, and have just been lurking around. I think the project is interesting, and I would like to support it by buying into those contracts you guys are offering, if for nothing else then just to see how it works in practice etc. It is kinda complicated at the moment though, if it could all be handled from the mobile wallet (im using the android wallet), finding markets, buying into them etc, then I would definitely be up for it. Just a thought though, keep up the good work.
14:23
Deleted Account
is there a stablecoin on Amoveo?
15:49
Eric Arsenault
Focus on building a good product? Money will eventually find move towards networks that bring value, but the market isn’t rational
16:03
sanket
Zack are you selling any short-veo contract?
16:34
The Ancients
Problem with Amoveo is their is literally 0 community support.
Another project im interested in is Turtlecoin which has all the community support but no real substance behind that community support.
16:34
Past year its literally the same 5-10 ppl yapping away at each other. 🤷♂️
16:35
Discord itself is a barrel wasteland
16:39
Zack thinks he can run everything all by himself and it shows... 0 support from the non-existant community.
17:40
Sebsebzen
Actually the whole website and suit of tools was built by the community
17:56
sanket
You seem new here. Almost everything is community driven
18:18
Zack
The browser light node that I wrote works on android and you can use it to participate in smart contracts.
18:35
I wish I was able to do this all on my own, but I would be hopeless without the support of the amoveo community.
18:39
sanket
Maybe we should keep this pinned always. So that new people know about it.
18:40
Zack
All the links are on github, so I always link to github.
18:41
It's easier to maintain just one list of links
18:41
sanket
Yeah that works too. Currently only your 9 VEO long contract is there.
Maybe can include GitHub link as a "edit"
Deleted invited Deleted Account
19:54
Zack
@sourcex made this oracle so we can bet on whether Theon Greyjoy will die in today's episode of game of thrones CwN26Hi13i/M8nhlsjSiJ53DJHs2NjiZy5X4eNsafNk=
He used this page to create the new oracle question:
http://139.59.144.76:8080/new_oracle.htmlI am offering a bet of 0.5 veo that Theon will die.
19:57
I added a feature to the P2P derivatives tool so that you can customize the amount of time a bet_offer is valid until it expires.
This is important for betting on game of thrones, because you don't want your bet offer to still be valid after the episode is over.
20:08
The Ancients
@sourcex nowhere close to being new
20:09
been here when it hit around 900
20:09
ic heck back every couple of months and its the same dead place its always been since the pnd hype
20:10
Zack
@templeorion you should try out the P2P derivatives tool, it has been improving a lot in the last couple of months.
20:58
For 9 veo I am selling a long-veo contract. This will double your leverage against veo.
It gives me $95 of stablecoins for each of the 9 veo I invest, and all the extra money in the channel goes to you.
You can learn about amoveo here
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
22:06
I am betting that Theon will die at 2:1 odds.
I lock 0.5 veo in the channel, you lock 0.25 in.
23:18
Zack
I am kind of hoping to lose big on derivatives sometime soon.
If I can tweet about how I lost hundreds of dollars on these derivatives contracts, it will be easier to get people to make contracts with me in the future.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
00:06
Eric Arsenault
I’d be happy to help set this up lol
Deleted invited Deleted Account
06:47
Zack
someone loaded over a hundred different pages on github today.
If you are going to be reading that heavily, you might consider downloading the code and using a text editor. That way you don't have to keep waiting for github to load the next page.
06:52
Mr Flintstone
code or docs?
08:14
Spike Spiegel
If you have a blockchain project, start by consisely explaining:
1. Sybil control
2. Censorship resistance
3. Scalability
4. Access control
5. Privacy
6. Auditability
No one does this and that's why I think they're jokes. Instead they bikeshed on coin emission, block time, etc.
7. Upgrade/fork mechanisms
8. Proof of correctness for consensus
9. Data availability (if sharding)
10. Asynchronicity (orphans)
11. Known attack vectors (e.g. 51%)
12. Economic incentives
13. <insert litany of PoS criticisms>
08:15
Seems like a nice way to organise answers to common questions aka FAQ section
08:15
Zack
sure, looks like a good start to a FAQ page
09:40
Zack
I updated the light node p2p derivatives tool stablecoin interface so you can bet for either stablecoin or long-veo now.
10:43
Eric Arsenault
Zack, what do you think is the biggest risk for Amoveo to win?
10:53
The better way to look at it is like we are panning for gold. Every month there is a certain small percentage chance we will achieve product market fit and then it will grow exponentially.
So it is a matter of getting that percentage each month as high as we can, and surviving as many months as possible.
10:55
My operating costs are like $30 of servers each month, and I enjoy the project. I think I can keep this up for years.
10:56
Sebsebzen
Zack what milestones do you plan to achieve within the next 1 year?
10:57
Zack
My goal is to achieve product market fit this month with the P2P derivatives tool.
10:57
Sebsebzen
And in terms of tech?
10:57
Sebsebzen
Anything major in the pipeline?
10:57
Zack
once we achieve product market fit, I will be focused on the needs of our users
10:57
there is a bunch of stuff on my todo list
10:57
and issues on github
10:58
Sebsebzen
Ok, so continuous improvement
10:58
Sebsebzen
Do you think privacy, e.g. zero knowledge proofs are something that fits to Amoveo usecase?
10:59
Zack
channels are already private by default
10:59
Sebsebzen
Thanks, good to do list
11:00
Zack
It would be cool to hide balances. if those tools became simple and understood I would be happy to add them to amoveo. but I am not going to do any research in cryptography or try to pay people to do research.
11:00
Sebsebzen
Refactoring, very good point :)
11:26
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/txs/channel_team_close_tx2.erlI am writing a new version of the channel team close tx type.
Based on my feedback from making trades with users, I found that some people wan to be able to safely undo a trade.
This new version of the channel team close tx allows you to undo a tx, and it protects you from the free option problem. you can limit your partner so they only have 1 hour to accept your agreement until it becomes invalid.
Additionally, this tx type records how much money is leaving the channels and going into each account. A feature @Sy was asking for, to make it easier for block explorers.
11:26
I am thinking we will temporarily support both tx types, and then once everyone has switched over we will drop support for the old version.
12:04
sanket
This feature is useful. Maybe also, somehow people can reduce their bet size with this?
12:05
I think continual improvement is important. Stablecoin can be used to hedge against VEO volatility.
12:05
What do you think is uses for p2p derivatives in daily life?
12:07
Zack
most people don't use derivatives daily.
If you integrate the derivative into your job, like if it is how you get paid, then it could be daily.
people could have a daily gambling habit.
12:11
sanket
So only for gambling? I thought we can use this as a funding mechanism as well.
Like people bet that X will be able to achieve the task in some Y hours and if Yes, then he receives the payment if no then money is refunded.
12:12
you can do it with the P2P tool, like Eric Arsenault did
13:45
Eric Arsenault
I agree with this, but I also think that understanding what the top risks are to achieving product market fit is important, so you can validate, grow, pivot, etc
13:48
Zack
That does not make any sense. I feel like you are putting random positive sounding words together without considering what they mean.
16:42
Alfred
Really not something I would wish but what if you're suddendly unable to keep it running?
16:57
Alfred
To rephrase it a bit:
What's your plan to mitigate amoveo's dependency on you over time?
19:55
Zack
After I push an update once, I never need to push it again
Nayan Savla invited Nayan Savla
20:12
Zack
How could guessing our "top risks", whatever that could mean, relates to our ability to "validate, pivot or grow"?
What is a "top risk" anyway?
Failure is the default. You don't need a reason to fail. It's not like something bad could happen that will make us all give up on amoveo.
Success is the unexpected result that could happen for a reason. Something good could happen that makes amoveo popular.
20:17
Let's say I suggested we pivot to focusing more on the channel hub derivatives market again.
How will you use knowledge of "top risks" to decide if this is a good or bad pivot?
20:18
Suppose you did have a list of 3 "top risks". How do you use that list to make amoveo grow?
20:19
If you have a list of "top risks" how do you use that to "validate" amoveo.
I'm not sure what you meant when you said "validate".
20:34
Zack
If Paul graham is right that the risk profile of a startup is similar to panning for gold, then the idea of "top risks" is meaningless.
If you think Paul is wrong, merely listing the random words "grow, pivot, validate" is not a valid argument to convince any of us that Paul is wrong.
22:14
Zack
it should say "give an amount of money proportionate to $10k." thanks for the tip.
22:15
this document has so many problems, random off-topic paragraphs haha
Deleted invited Deleted Account
23:03
Maybe I should have used the word assumptions that need to be validated instead of risks
23:34
Zack
Long term assumptions:
Nakamoto consensus works.
The Oracle consensus works.
I had that debate with Paul sztorc recently about whether the Oracle works. I have published a lot of math trying to find ways to break the Oracle.
We don't test the Nakamoto consensus assumption much, mostly because bitcoin does that for us.
Short term assumptions:
Yesterday I went with the assumption that the demand for gambling in game of thrones is big enough to overcome the challenge of using amoveo derivatives.
This assumption turned out to be false, but we learned a lot about how to improve the protocol from the experiment.
Yesterday I went wih the assumption that people want to make custom bets, but they only lack documentation to explain how, then they will start making their own bets.
This assumption turned out false. Almost no one read the new documentation, and we didn't learn anything from producing it.
I'll probably spend the next few days implementing all our new ideas before I test any more short term assumptions.
23:42
A problem with channel_team_close is that it updates the nonce of the person who generates the tx.
This is a problem because it means I can't make a bunch of txs to close a bunch of channels all at once. All but one of the txs would have the wrong nonce.
The hard update we are planning puts something like nlocktime into the channel team close tx.
We can use a short nlocktime to prevent a channel team close tx being reused in future channels, so we don't need to have the nonce in that tx.
I am including this upgrade along with the others when making the new version of the channel team close tx.
00:18
sanket
This looks good and useful
00:24
Eric Arsenault
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
Maybe lean startup methodology is more applicable to a product (targeting a specific market) as oppose to a protocol. I would imagine that once we know which target market to go after, there will be more critical assumptions to test related to Value, Growth, UX, etc.
00:29
Zack
"lean startup" means different things to different people.
we are constantly testing assumptions. This is the process of validated learning that is critical for producing anything useful.
Writing software is almost never the bottleneck, learning what the users want is.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
04:26
Evans Pan
Zack I think the biggest missing piece of veo stable coins is liquidity. People are willing to pay 14% interest to buy DAI but not veo stable coin, coz DIA has instant liduidity and DIA can be used to buy other crypto assets. But veo stable coin has to be locked in for a month. If any exhange can list "veo stable coin" as a base asset and create some btc, eth pairs with veostablecoin, I am willing to buy lots of veostablecoin at least. And the demand will be much bigger.
04:32
so if veostable is not tradable, or without liquidity, I dont think it will be a popular asset.
04:32
Zack
We can do even better.
Exchanges today are all insecure.
The centralized ones can steal your money by refusing to let you withdraw.
The decentralized ones can steal your money by front running you, or using free options.
Amoveo makes it possible to build a truly trustless exchange.
The trick is to divide the process of the exchange into 2 steps.
1) transform your VEO into stable BTC on Amoveo.
2) do an atomic swap to trade your stable BTC on Amoveo for BTC on Bitcoin.
step 1 is already live on Amoveo.
step 2 works because stable BTC and BTC have a fixed ratio of prices relative to each other. So it isn't possible to front run the trade, because there is exactly 1 price that the trade can happen at.
04:43
Evans Pan
thats great. so to put it simly, if I exchanged 20 veo to veostable which is worth fixed 0.5BTC, I can atomic swap it to real 0.5
btc.is it correct?
04:44
but after that, the person who got my 0.5 btc worth of veostable, what can he do? and is that possible for me to redeem back the 0.5btc veostablecoin?
04:45
Zack
Amoveo channels support hashlocking with SHA256, the same as bitcoin.
We do not yet have a tool that can do hashlocking on both blockchains at the same time, so it is not yet possible to make this swap.
04:46
I think "veostable" is a bad name.
On Amoveo you can make a stablecoin that stays the same price as BTC, you can make a stablecoin that stays the same price as USD, you can make a stablecoin that stays the same price as ETH.
04:46
Evans Pan
ok, if we cant swap, just do an exhange somehow.
04:46
Zack
you can sell the BTC stablecoins for VEO, or wait for the contract to expire and it will turn into VEO on its own.
04:47
it can be a BTC stablecoin that only lasts 1 or 2 days, made specifically to facilitate VEO-BTC trading.
04:48
Evans Pan
as long as the stable coin is tradable, I think its the most important feature for veo to develop.
04:50
We need a Trade function for any kind of stable value of assets on Amoveo chain.
04:54
Zack
the way that works is like this:
if I have a BTC stablecoin with Bob, and I want to sell the stablecoins to you.
I make a contract to you so that you own stablecoins and I own long-veo to cancel out the stablecoins I already have with Bob.
So the bet follows a 3 step path Bob -> Me -> You.
We trustlessly move the bet to a direct channel between Bob and You. This unlocks my VEO from both channels.
Currently we do not have this tool for moving bets to a direct path.
05:05
Evans Pan
yes I can see the logic works.
06:30
Zack
Does anyone know an open source library for doing atomic swap with bitcoin?
I want to build a trustless exchange
07:04
Zack
should I rewrite half the light node in golang so that we can integrate into this atomic swap tool?
07:09
It looks like we only need to extract the secret from one of the two blockchains.
If we set it up to always extract from amoveo, then we never have to scan the bitcoin blockchain, so I think we can safely automate the entire process.
07:11
too bad the light node is all in javascript, and I can't run golang programs from javascript.
07:28
Zack
I guess the best strategy is to add the atomic swap tool to the full node.
We need to send some messages back and forth between the nodes.
I guess I can make a tool so that the node that starts out with veo will make a payment to a server to pass the messages back and forth.
07:29
it would be nice if we could use the full node as a light node for this.
I am guessing that the people swapping bitcoin and veo don't want to wait around for all the blocks to sync.
08:34
Zack
Which of these atomic swap tools would you prefer:
1) The ability to trade B bitcoin for V veo, and you give your partner a 48 hour free option to decide not to take the contract.
2) You trade B bitcoin for a contract on veo. in 48 hours, the contract pays you what the Amoveo oracle says are B bitcoin worth of veo.
08:35
Maybe I should write both?
08:37
or a generalized hashlock tool that can combine hashlocking with any other smart contract, and by combining it with different contracts we can support both kinds of swaps.
09:06
Eric Arsenault
Why 48 hours in both cases?
09:15
Zack
48 hours is standard for bitcoin swaps.
48 hours seems like a fine amount of time in the future to make oracles. They do cost 0.24 veo a piece. I think making two a day would get a little expensive.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
10:18
Eric Arsenault
I prefer option 2
10:18
Feels like I am more in control
10:20
And I know I’m going to get B Bitcoin’s worth. With option 1) it isn’t guaranteed
10:40
Zack
It's a deleted tweet
10:42
Eric Arsenault
What was the tweet about?
11:20
sanket
He wanted someone to escrow his $80k bet
Instinct invited Instinct
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
20:02
Alfred
the hindsight on this one is strong ahah
Deleted invited Deleted Account
20:53
Stepan Panov
Amoveo News 30.04.2019 20:53:08
20:58
Zack
Looks good so far.
grammar issue "A new interface was to control how long a derivative offer is valid until it expires was added to the light node."
21:01
Stepan Panov
updated, thanks for pointing it out
Genesis4Fx invited Genesis4Fx
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
01:01
Eric Arsenault
I don’t understand what you are saying. If you want to sell, sell it on an exchange
01:16
@zack : Lawrence is either a scammer or wants exposure to BTC and would like to place a bet going long BTC
01:17
Alfred
likely a scammer lol
01:18
Eric Arsenault
he previously messaged me shilling some shitcoin
01:29
Zack
if you want to do trading, go to
qtrade.io or use discord
#trading channel.
01:39
Alfred
Discord is "banned in his country" (:
01:39
Zack
what country is that?
01:40
looks like China blocks it too
01:41
Well, we don't want to encourage him to break the law. If cryptocurrency is illegal in his country, then he should not use cryptocurrency.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
02:56
Toby Ganger
what happened to the buyers...it’s just slow bleeding right now
03:08
Zack
Amoveo is small, so volatility is normal
03:31
Toby Ganger
Doesn’t seem to be volatile. Just slow drip selling with no new buyers.
04:11
Zack
Amoveo is only improving. Nothing changed to make it a worse investment than a few weeks ago.
This is what I mean by "volatility". The price adjusts even though the fundamental value proposition has not.
05:14
How about a futarchy market to find out if Elon should step down from his position making decisions for Tesla. We want to know if getting rid of Elon will make Tesla more or less valuable.
I have a feeling a lot of people would want to weigh in on this decision.
05:18
Mr Flintstone
what are the two events, Elon is no longer CEO in month x and the return of Tesla stock is >y in month x?
05:19
Zack
sure.
but we need 4 oracles to all possible combinations of those event.
05:21
Zack
I could set up a DAC to reveal Tesla secrets, even if I can't find a secret to reveal, at least we will get some people to test out the DAC
Deleted invited Deleted Account
06:11
Zack
I found a memory leak in block processing.
It was really bad, we were writing like twice as much info to the hard drive per block as we needed to.
I am testing the fix now.
If the hard drive was the bottleneck for you to sync, meaning you have very fast bandwidth in comparison to your hard drive speed, then this should let you sync twice as fast.
06:15
I am thinking we should get rid of garbage collection for the merkel tree databases.
This way you can look up merkel proofs at any point in history.
Then we will stop storing the merkel proofs with blocks, we will look them up from the database as needed.
I expect that after these changes, the hard drive requirement will decrease around 5x
So instead of needing 590 mb to store the entire history, you will only need 118 mb.
07:12
Zack
block processing is much faster without garbage collection. more than twice as fast.
It doesn't make much difference for syncing on my machine, because the bottleneck is on downloading the blocks.
07:15
looks like it only saves 2x on space, not 5x.
But it looks like this will make block processing much faster.
07:42
Zack
the page size for the file system on my laptop is 12 kilobytes for some reason.
the typical block is like 4 kb.
So I am using up 3x as much hard drive space as necessary, and making the block 10x smaller wont save any space.
I guess I need a better plan for storing blocks.
07:42
Jon Snow
Buy low Toby
07:48
Toby Ganger
I bought about a year ago
07:50
Zack
Now it looks like the new way of doing it is using even more hard drive space than the old way.
07:50
Jon Snow
Buy more when it is low
Deleted invited Deleted Account
08:00
Eric Arsenault
or buy some stablecoins if you're worried it'll drop some more
08:01
Jon Snow
Forget what I said. I agree with Eric
Deleted invited Deleted Account
08:42
Toby Ganger
If I had infinite capital I would
08:42
Zack
I found a bug in the merkel tree library that is making everything take up more space than necessary. it looks like an easy fix.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
09:06
Zack
nevermind, there is no bug in the merkel tree library. I am not sure why it is using so much extra space.
10:06
Zack
I did a bunch of math, and it turns out that the merkel tree is taking up the expected amount of space.
What is strange is that if we store the same data with each block instead of in the merkel tree database, it ends up taking 25% less hard drive space.
The blocks have a bunch of things making them less efficient:
* they are stored in files with page sizes of 4k bytes, so for every block we waste about 2k bytes of space.
* the blocks are encoded as JSON strings before being zlib compressed. This is far less efficient than the binary format supported by the merkel tree database.
* as well as merkel proofs, the blocks also store transactions.
* the blocks store more copies of each merkel proof in comparison to the merkel tree database.
Because of these 4 factors, I had expected the blocks to be at least 5x bigger than the merkel tree database.
10:08
474 mb to store all the blocks with all the merkel proofs for every block.
619 mb to store just the merkel proofs in a database.
10:12
oh, I think I figured it out.
A lot of the merkel proofs point to emptiness.
In the merkel tree database we store 32 bytes of 0 to signify that the stem points towards emptiness.
If 32 bytes of 0 are stored in a block, then it gets compressed to nothing when we do the zlib compression library.
11:24
Zack
Maybe we should do a rewrite of the Merkel tree database, or switch to using an ethereum library.
There are only like 4000 accounts with more than dust. It wouldn't be hard to swap to a different database.
There has been some new research into these kinds of databases since I wrote it.
Like how they realized that only having 2 children per tree element is best, because you can store chunks of the Merkel tree together in pages that are the optimal size for your architecture.
11:34
Spike Spiegel
BTW financial stuff: people aren't willing to close CDP's and refinance using Compound or Dharma even if they could save few % that way
11:37
Eric Arsenault
Why do you think this is? Effort required is quite low
11:42
Spike Spiegel
Stickiness - moving from one Eth based thing to another ( literally few clicks to save $200 or so ) - too much hassle for very little benefit.
If you think about it - Bitcoin isn't technically much better than Dogecoin - Bitcoin was first and because of that it's the Schelling point.
Unless massive shilling will happen there is close to zero chance that anything except Eth will be adopted for derivatives.
People are ok with sending money to Bitfinex while it's already a fact that Tethers aren't fully backed.
People are ok with totally unsecure systems if they provide some useful service.
Willingness to switch to something that would:
- give more privacy / security
- while having worse UX or it's just unfamiliar
is close to zero for majority of users
11:47
Eric Arsenault
Until things get shaken up
11:48
Even with very low switching costs and friction, people just stick with what they are familiar
11:49
Zack
When you install a new amoveo node, it could run a test to find the optimal settings for your Merkel tree database.
11:52
I'm thinking at some point we should set up a checkpoint in amoveo, so we don't resync the very early blocks, and we can delete some legacy code that is only used for very early blocks to make things more readable.
If we plan to do that, it makes it a lot more reasonable to swap out the Merkel tree database.
11:54
If we switch to order 2 radix trees instead of order 16, the Merkel proofs with each block would be 1/2 as long.
11:57
This would be a good time to switch to using the compressed version of pubkeys as well.
12:50
Zack
Your typical bitcoin tx is 450 bytes.
We are currently using 108+ 2 * (32*16*log16 (number of users)) bytes per spend tx, and more for other types.
With this update we could get it down to 108 + 2* (32 * 2 * log (number of users)
/log (4000/32))
At 1000000 users, this is about 10x improvement in hard drive space vs our current database, and our txs could be 500 bytes on average, even including the Merkel proofs.
The amount of data we store on the hard drive is about the same as the amount of info in all the blocks. We just organize it for accessibility. So this same update both saves us 10x in hard drive space, and gives us 10x more space in each block.
As the number of users grows the savings gets even bigger.
And as for hard drive speed, currently we do log16(number of accounts) reads or writes per update.
it would be log (number of accounts)
/log (4000/32) after the update.
Which is like 75% faster on the hard drive for any number of accounts.
12:51
Eric Arsenault
this is a huge improvement...!
12:52
Zack
This would bring us more to the standard that people expect for blockchains today.
13:12
Eric Arsenault
on trend with GOT bet and other political bet I shared
13:12
people care about whatever they see on the news today
13:24
Zack
If we also use compressed pubkeys, I think we can get the tx size smaller than bitcoin
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
20:43
Zack
I had a mistake in the math before.
This update will only double the space per block.
It gives us 10x more space on the hard drive.
21:31
Zack
this seems like a fair amount of activity. Maybe I should start posting to 4chan.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
21:35
Zack
github says very few people actually clicked the link in 4chan to visit Amoveo. maybe it isn't such a good place to post.
21:37
The Ancients
ppl are arguing the fact u have no idea what ur talking about and ur just shilling ur coin
21:38
maybe correct them and ppl will take it more seriously
21:38
Zack
If they don't read what I wrote, I don't see how writing any more will help
21:39
[Riki]
They always write that. Its 4chan 101
21:44
Zack
I am a tech investor.
I am the kind of investor who cares about the technology.
There are other kinds of investors.
There are status investors who only cares about what high status people like Bill Gates say.
There are psychology investors, who look at signals in the media and use their understanding of the human mind to know how the prices will change.
It is basically impossible for me to write something that will be convincing to a status or psychology investor. And everyone who is a tech investor can read what I already wrote.
21:46
If possible, I try to keep status and psychology investors away from Amoveo.
If we have those kinds of investors holding VEO, it will increase how much volatility we get from randomness in the media, or random things that high-status people happen to say.
The technology is something we can control, so we want the price to be related to the technology instead of these other factors. That way volatility wont be so bad.
21:50
Maybe we should pay some high status people to write about how Amoveo is the worst.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
23:51
Eric Arsenault
😂 make more of these!
23:53
Zack
Yeah, I guess I should give the people what they want.
23:54
Eric Arsenault
Give the bots maybe. Who knows anymore
23:56
Zack
For some reason it got shared like 8 times, and I think one of the accounts that shared it has tons of followers.
Even though it was shown to 7x as many people, the number of people who actually clicked on it was the same as usual.
23:58
out of people who saw that tweet, they were like 3x more likely to click on it vs my average tweet.
00:00
Eric Arsenault
Click bait
00:00
Zack
I guess I should have said "Why and how Chainlink will fail"
00:00
instead of "review of chainlink oracle"
00:01
Eric Arsenault
Yeah, titles that are controversial are good
00:01
But not too controversial since people just ignore it
00:01
Zack
I wonder if I will annoy our audience if I repost a link to the chainlink review with a better title
00:01
Eric Arsenault
Possibly
00:02
Zack
maybe if I rewrite some parts of it, so at least there is something new to share
00:04
Spike Spiegel
chainlink has memes
00:04
Zack
so if I deliver the content with an appropriate meme, it will get more attention?
00:05
Eric Arsenault
Zack: how many people do you want to reach? Want to bet in a DAC I can do it?
00:05
Instinct
Hitbtc retweeted it
00:05
Zack
This is less about trying to make this one particular tweet succeed, and more about me learning how to tweet effectively
00:05
Eric Arsenault
I see.
00:06
I guess a follow up: why do you want to tweet effectively? I'm assuming it is to grow awareness for Amoveo?
00:07
Zack
I am not a mediocre person.
Everything I do, I try to be the best I can.
I guess you could ask why we have a twitter feed at all. Maybe it is a mistake.
00:09
Eric Arsenault
With twitter you can only reach so many people, there are more effective ways to reach new audiences.
00:10
If you are just trying to be a good tweeter, just keep it up. memes are good. controversial is good (which you already are).
00:10
Zack
I think reaching the widest audience is not the right goal at this time.
00:10
Feynman is a smart guy, and that link is short.
00:11
Eric Arsenault
I love that guy
00:12
Reaching 1000 new followers wouldn't help Amoveo as much as this guy spending 30 minutes to explain this concept to me.
00:13
Sometimes the best way to learn is to stand up in front of people and make a fool of yourself.
00:14
Eric Arsenault
Very often actually
00:14
Spike Spiegel
look at csw
00:14
Eric Arsenault
😂 hahaha
00:16
Zack
I guess I see twitter as a place to post ideas that are big if true. So hopefully someone in the wider cryptocurrency community can show me how I am wrong.
00:17
Eric Arsenault
In that case, maybe you can @ some people who are more familiar to get their input. for example: for chainlink, you could @ sergey or whoever and ask them why your analysis is wrong
00:31
Mr Flintstone
cool! Is the scope of this strictly what was described in the DAC, or might this also support the anyone can spend p2p betting function?
00:32
Eric Arsenault
the DAC also included p2p betting functionality
00:33
scope included: -sending VEO, oracle creation, creating a bet, accepting a bet, closing a bet (all p2p)
00:35
Mr Flintstone
yeah, I just remember we used to have to use the message passing server before zack implemented the version where we just send trades through twitter discord or telegram
00:36
Eric Arsenault
we used the latest version (not message passing version)
00:38
Eric Arsenault
Our plan is to get it up on AWS (hopefully today) for testing with whoever would like to try it (on test mode)
00:44
Zack
I imagine if we had hired auditors instead of getting free advice from this guy, it would have cost us $10k or $20k. And I would have wasted dozens of hours over the course if weeks communicating with the auditors.
On Twitter I can get the same info in less than a couple hours of my time, and it is free, and the whole process was finished in like 2 days.
00:53
Eric Arsenault
That’s amazing.
02:09
Mr Flintstone
by test mode do you mean testnet?
02:12
Eric Arsenault
no, test mode is different (we can mine blocks manually within AWS)
02:13
Mr Flintstone
ok, cool
06:24
Zack
I want to interview someone who is a bookie. A person who facilitates gambling in a in-person format.
If you know someone like this who would be willing to talk to me, please help.
06:25
Phil Bonello
Don't you just want a market maker?
06:26
Zack
maybe. I am not a gambler personally, I am not so good with the jargon.
07:02
Eric Arsenault
A bookie would be good
07:02
Market markers also, but they both have different use cases
07:03
Zack
I think bookies have a network to work together to cancel out risks from different places
07:04
like when foot ball teams from different regions play each other. locals like to bet on their own team.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
08:31
Deleted Account
Zack could i make a bet that apple will iit $125 before $300?
08:32
Zack
sure, that would be a binary oracle.
You need to choose some date for the oracle to resolve.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
09:53
JasonWW
how is the progress of Amoveo, haven't been in this group for a while
09:54
Eric Arsenault
Lots going on!
09:59
Eric Arsenault
BIG NEWS: the light node UX work that
@nobiembrex and I have been working on is online and open source (currently hosted on AWS for testing purposes) 😊
10:00
Please let me know if you would like to go over some tests to take it for a spin!
10:01
Note: the
/home page has "Other" links below top section. These links are the same as on Zack's light node (ie, designs were applied to top section links only)
10:02
Also note: new designs are not 100% mobile responsive, it is better to test on desktop
10:02
Eric Arsenault
Please DM for any comments / testing request / etc
10:35
this thread should be better alot alot of replies
10:40
Zack
haha, im pretty sure I was never on a podcast called "off the chain"
10:42
Brian Brian
But you are genius tier?
10:48
JasonWW
Thanks, Zack. Keep up the good work
11:41
Zack
{<<"BFz83jILT5j03NlrKR/fV7B5WtRy3fPDEyknyxePns2cKsB32Fn+ZPAdVftMtSu6nI/+O5tbyr1ltLXQZjMdmeA=">>,
<<"Alz83jILT5j03NlrKR/fV7B5WtRy3fPDEyknyxePns2c">>}
I wrote a library to compress and decompress pubkeys
11:41
it makes them about 1/2 as big.
11:42
im thinking we can update the txs to support both types for now, and eventually when it makes sense to we can start using the compressed version inside the merkel tree database.
11:50
The Ancients
Geniur tier developer. Trash tier level marketer.
11:51
what most ppl would say
Trevor moite invited Trevor moite
11:57
Zack
We got 83 unique IPs that loaded the review of chainlink.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
13:56
NM$L
price drop a lot
13:56
Zack
we are almost down to the all time low
14:03
Sy
Buy side is growing again tho
14:03
Same shit, different day
14:04
The Ancients
i mean theirs like $5,000 dollars mined everyday or so right? If theirs no positive market sentiment and any news/marketing said project it won't be able to hold prices
14:05
all i can see is the price constantly going down
14:05
FPGA are just dumping soon as they mine them
14:06
Zack
Not many Veo are changing hands at these prices. Only $900 volume on qtrade today.
14:10
but. I want 1000＄ per veo
14:11
Zack
I want to make customers happy with a useful product.
14:13
The Ancients
You do realize its a Ying and Yang.. you need a balance. Just cause u have a superior product doesn't always mean the most success.
14:13
You need to build relationships, partnerships, and get your product out their to the consumers.
14:13
Zack
I agree there is balance.
And everything has a time.
Now is the time to find a consistently useful product that we can scale.
14:14
We can't "get it out there" before we know what it is.
14:17
You can help by testing out the light node, and sending me suggestions or questions so I can know which parts are confusing.
Especially the p2p derivatives tool.
14:18
The Ancients
Im not well versed in coding, but if you need help from a average joe in anyway i can try
14:18
Zack
Yes, we need average Joe help
Deleted invited Deleted Account
21:22
The Ancients
Why is there all of a sudden so many threads about Zack on 4chan haha
21:22
Cause of that Chainlink article... guess publicity is publicity
21:23
Zack
I think the chainlink guys like making threads there. And I posted that review of chainlink recently
21:23
So they made threads about it
21:24
The Ancients
they making threads about Amoveo too now
21:26
Zack
Can you share a link?
I don't really know how to use 4 chan
21:28
The Ancients
its 4chan /biz/ not to be taken seriously they have no influence on the markets its pretty much a barrel dead wasteland
21:29
its just about prices 🤷♂️
21:32
Zack
I think maybe 4 chan has its good sides too.
By letting people post with so little reputation, they aren't afraid to speak in a low-status way.
This can make people comfortable to say things they wouldn't normally say.
You do have to sift through a lot of low quality posts to find the valuable content.
21:33
And I can't figure out how to find threads about amoveo
21:33
The Ancients
Left corner you'll see "Search OPS"
21:34
type ur name or Amoveo
21:35
then u can search on the right side panel
21:35
Stepan Panov
Yep, i swear every time I go there there's at least 3-4 chainlink threads going on.
21:39
Zack
Thanks yaba, I can search now.
Looks like it only supports search for non-archived content
21:42
Stepan Panov
I think once the thread goes past the last page it's gone. They can be archived manually though, but I'm not sure how that works.
21:42
Zack
Oh, it is all deleted. Good to know
21:45
The Ancients
its not deleted
21:45
still alive and kicking
22:07
Zack
24 hour volume on qtrade is <$1 today
22:20
Toby Ganger
The price is collapsing but at least we have no volume! 😢
22:21
By the way, I still think that crypto needs promotion as part of its product development because the promotion attracts new people with skin in the game who can help develop the product in multiple directions.
22:24
looks like everyone is waiting
22:26
Mr Flintstone
I think amoveo is getting much closer to a marketable product lately
22:27
maybe within months, but there is still work to be done
22:28
Toby Ganger
That’s great to hear and I know a lot of folks are doing good work to make that happen
22:29
And they’re all doing it because they have skin in the game. Crypto is a different animal when it comes to product development
22:40
Deleted Account
Well said. Crypto needs network effects
22:46
Sy
i think most ppl who are willing to put skin into anything that early are already in
22:46
PR at this point is more for adoption and we arent there yet...imho
22:46
a few more month, some polishing :)
22:52
Eric Arsenault
Agreed the product needs some more polish before focusing on growth, but I also think there is ground work that needs to be done so we can scale this part of things when ready. Things take time to execute. IMO groundwork should start now, in anticipation that a more refined product will be ready for market soon
23:33
Spike Spiegel
Question: why nobody is able to fork MKR
23:33
It's all open source after all
23:33
Eric Arsenault
branding
23:33
Spike Spiegel
Stablecoins and long leverage are most popular
#DeFi products
23:33
Eric Arsenault
its their moat
23:35
Spike Spiegel
So why you won't attack them for profit?
23:37
"The margins for dai are 150%, so you can make the oracle lie by up to 150% in each direction, and since cdp has double-volatility you can earn up to 600% for doing this attack once"
23:37
Zack
yeah at some point we should probably write some exploits to make it more obvious which projects do not work.
23:37
Spike Spiegel
How one can profit up to 600% ?
23:38
Also how you can bribe the oracle if you don't know who is behind them?
23:38
Zack
Ideally we would write these exploits after Amoveo already has product market fit, so that users will swarm from the broken projects to Amoveo instead of to some other project that is already working.
23:38
Spike Spiegel
MKR team does know and they may create harsh real-life penalties for bribed oracles
23:38
Zack
you release an alternative version of the software that the oracles use to participate.
23:40
I think I miscalculated this.
23:40
Spike Spiegel
I don't understand. How?
MKR team is assigning oracles and it's not transparent process and you cannot just swap the software
23:40
Zack
if you have 10 in the contract, and there is cdp of 15, then at most you can only get 150% more out.
23:41
mkr team assigns them? I thought MKR holders assign them.
23:41
Spike Spiegel
Nope. MKR holders have no say
23:41
MKR uses meatspace enforcement which allows 4.2 systems to exist
23:41
Zack
haha, so it is as centralized as intrade
23:42
Spike Spiegel
They have no reason to kill the system as if system will be working they will be getting governance fees ( currently $13M per year )
23:43
Zack
Systems with less security are also more expensive.
The mkr team needs an incentive to not make the oracle lie to steal the bets.
23:43
Spike Spiegel
They have this incentive - they are massive MKR holders
23:43
Zack
yeah $13 M per year could be enough money to incentivize them not to break it.
But that $13 M per year is ultimately coming from trading fees from users.
23:44
Spike Spiegel
It's not from trading fees - it's from CDP holders
23:44
Zack
Sure, they can disguise these fees in all sorts of complicated mechanisms
23:44
Spike Spiegel
Fees are transparent and explicit
23:44
Zack
Amoveo derivatives trading has 0 fees.
23:45
Spike Spiegel
Amoveo has almost the highest inflation rate compared to other currencies - each new block reduces the % ownership of every holder
23:45
Zack
By having a more secure oracle, we can offer the same service at a lower cost.
23:46
Spike Spiegel
Show, don't tell - most people are using CDP's to get more ETH exposure and they don't want Amoveo exposure at all
23:46
Zack
This is a common misconception about mining in the cryptocurrency community.
23:46
Spike Spiegel
Why it's misconception?
23:47
Spike Spiegel
High issuance rate means that new demand is required to keep to price at same level.
In order to keep the price at same level the amount of capital injected on daily basis have to be comparable to daily block rewards
23:48
Zack
When a government prints new fiat at no cost, this does indeed cause inflation and hurts the value of existing fiat.
When a miner pays $1000 to dig $1050 of gold out of the ground, it increases the supply of gold without decreasing the value of existing gold.
23:48
Spike Spiegel
The government isn't producing the most fiat - commercial banks are
23:49
Banks are creating the money, not the government
23:49
Zack
If the MKR team controls the honesty of the oracle, they will only keep the oracle honest if they expect to make more profit from the fees vs a retirement attack all at once.
So the fees will stay high.
4.x level security is necessarily more expensive than 3.x which is necessarily more expensive than 2.x
23:49
Spike Spiegel
When a miner pays $1000 to dig $1050 of gold out of the ground -- then $50 comes from what exactly?
23:50
"expect to make more profit from the fees vs a retirement attack all at once." -- so you are being dishonest if it's profitable for you? People aren't always like that
23:50
Apple has lot of credit cards data and they can steal money from users
23:50
But this isn't how you make the most profits in long run
23:53
Facts:
- Maker system is currently operational and until now nobody was able to attack it
- Attack surface is mostly limited to price fees which are making Maker logically centralised ( but still non-custodial )
- Maker is creating highest profit / revenue from all " blockchain using, pretenting to be decentralised projects "
23:53
The question is why people are unwilling to hold veo risk
23:53
Because such people are required in order to have cheap stablecoins
23:53
Zack
assumptions that people will be honest, even if it causes them to lose millions of dollars... that just isn't how cryptoeconomics works.
Cryptoeconomics doesn't make any assumptions about the morals of the participants. It finds mechanisms that are secure no matter what the morals of the participants are.
23:54
if short run profits exceed long run profits, then people will rationally abandon the long-run profits.
23:54
Instinct
Barely anyone knows about it yet
23:54
A K
in principle yes, but it's not that simple ) reputation and jail time is a thing, you know
23:55
Spike Spiegel
My theory is that people won't be interested in having veo based stabelcoins because they don't want veo risk
23:55
If it would be demand for veo risk then no stablecoins and no products would be necessary as people would be just buying veo
23:56
Instinct
As demand increases with price people will want to hedge with stablecoins
23:58
Eric Arsenault
This is why I like the idea of having a stable, increasing veo price
23:58
Spike Spiegel
Since only speculators have a meaningful impact on price according to Premise 9, there are only two ways by which its price can increase over time: either (a), an increasing number of speculators buy and hold the token (thereby removing supply); or (b), the token is a better store of value (retention of purchasing power) than existing alternatives. In the case of (b), both speculators and protocol service consumers and providers gain utility just from holding the token (i.e. thereby removing supply; speculators get utility from storing value in the token besides profiting off of higher prices in future).
00:00
Zack
Amoveo allows for financial derivatives at lower cost and higher security than any competitor.
Financial derivatives are the most popular application of currency, so whichever blockchain wins at financial derivatives will end up being the biggest store of value.
00:01
Spike Spiegel
Yup, and Ethereum seems to be winning derivative race
00:01
Zack
Another issue make MKR expensive is that DAI is a one-size-fits-all stablecoin.
Different users can't customize the margins for their needs
00:02
Not from my perspective.
Ethereum doesn't even have off-chain markets to trade these assets yet, and the on-chain markets are getting front-run by miners.
00:03
A K
frontrun by miners - in principle yes, in practice have you seen it or some analysis?
00:03
Spike Spiegel
ZRX team is working on this. And plethora of other pojects with VC funding + massive cash reserves
00:03
Zack
yeah, I saw some analysis about this, it is already happening. let me see if I can find it again.
00:03
Spike Spiegel
If doing something on Ethereum is possible then it will be done
00:04
If it will require sacrificing some decentralisation - then it will be done as well
00:04
Zack
turing complete state channels in ethereum would involve writing a VM inside of EVM.
00:04
like how Amoveo channel hubs are 100% centralized markets?
00:05
Instinct
I think ease of use will play a big part in this as well
00:08
the UX is basically independent of the cryptosystem securing the financial contracts.
We can combine any UX with any system of securing financial contracts.
00:12
Spike Spiegel
One can add more products and better UX but it won't change the amount of capital chasing veo risk
00:13
If people aren't interested in veo risk then no amount of derivatives would impact veo price
00:14
Rational people are not willing to hold always deprecating assets so they would hedge the veo risk ( shorting it while using it ) so the question is: who will be holding the bag and why?
00:15
Zack
There are different pieces that have to work together to make Amoveo succeed.
We need a good tool for stablecoins as a prerequisite for almost everything else, this way users don't have to hold veo risk to use Amoveo.
But at the same time, a stablecoin tool can't exist all alone.
There has to be some use-case that people are buying the stablecoins to participate in.
The stablecoin tool wont get very popular until people have a motivation to participate, and that wont happen until we make some other useful application on Amoveo.
00:16
Spike Spiegel
Bitcoin doesn't have any derivatives on top of it
00:16
Zero utility except payments
00:17
Zack
payments is an important application.
The goal of the Amoveo community is to build a platform for derivatives. If you don't like this goal, it doesn't make sense to participate in Amoveo.
00:17
If you want to invest in a payments blockchain, then invest in bitcoin or dogecoin or one of the hundreds of blockchains for that purpose
00:22
Spike Spiegel
I would prefer VEO to be store of value blockchain because I currently don't need derivatives.
00:23
Zack
looking at premise 8
They say that using the tokens takes a small amount of time.
This isn't the case for Amoveo.
If you want to have a contract in Amoveo, the total VEO that the contract can influence need to be locked inside the channel for the entire duration of the contract.
So if we have more users, they would actually absorb more of the supply of tokens for their contracts.
00:24
A K
bitcoin has that place, sorry
00:24
can't beat - VEO surely can't beat
00:25
Spike Spiegel
Of course it can beat btc on store of value by reducing the supply if price is decreasing. Bitcoin is unable to react to the market that way
00:25
i can create a coin with supply = 1. fixed amount.
00:25
great store of value... not
00:26
Spike Spiegel
So how one can make veo better store of value?
00:26
A K
i'm not sure that's possible )
00:26
if veo has no derivs utility, it's doomed
00:26
i, for one, am not interested in another litecoin 😊
00:27
Spike Spiegel
I think that even having all bells and whistles it would be doomed without aggressive marketing
00:27
A K
that's also might be the case, 100%
00:27
Spike Spiegel
Like: organizing hackathons, conferences, podcasts, blogs...
00:27
A K
better technologies have failed without marketing
00:27
or even with marketing, wink wink Betamax ))
00:28
Spike Spiegel
You can have poor product and best sales and win.
You cannot win with great product and poor sales / marketing
00:29
Sebsebzen
some form of real world interface would be helpful, like at least a limited company or foundation
00:29
A K
Zack re derivs, i should we should optimize for the case of 0 veo exposure along the whole way
00:29
Sebsebzen
that can ensure continuity, development and protect the trademark
00:29
A K
like, a newcomer learns about the best derivs platform, places a bet and gets settlement sometime down the road, all in USD terms
00:30
or maybe BTC ETH, but we're stretching
00:30
no existing serious derivs user would make any use of VEO settlement
00:30
if you hedge crops, you need USD-equiv
00:30
Eric Arsenault
another option is a stable veo
00:30
Spike Spiegel
I agree with A K 100% here.
1. Show that's possible to replicate MKR / CDP with VEO but cheaper / better / more secure
2. Pay some $$$ for people that will try it and write a blogpost / review
3. Measure conversion rate from CDP holders into "VEO alternative"
4. Remove subsidies if traction is created
00:30
Zack
yes, there will be a time for aggressive marketing. I just don't think we are there yet.
00:31
Spike Spiegel
Time for marketing is BEFORE the product is created, not after
00:31
Zack
it might make sense to have a light node interface optimized for this at some point.
We will need more demand for long-veo before it becomes possible.
00:31
Eric Arsenault
"marketing" can have different meanings
00:32
A K
esp considering there's not only end-user marketing, there's also HODLer and BUIDLer marketing. attract investors and developers
00:32
Eric Arsenault
it should be done in parallel, to different extents
00:32
Spike Spiegel
The famous lean playbook is saying that one should sell before making.
Sell product and get letters of intent before running production
00:32
Zack
What is more important is that we know what it is we are marketing, and who our target audience is.
Otherwise we will advertise the wrong product to the wrong people, and it will all be a waste.
00:32
Spike Spiegel
Ok, I would say let's focus on CDP holders
00:32
And offer them something better
00:32
Eric Arsenault
some of these people we can market to, regardless of who our final target audience is
00:33
A K
right now Zack is doing customer development, it is crucial. however Zack alone can't scale
00:33
Spike Spiegel
Because "farmers looking for crop derivatives" doesn't exist
00:33
A K
let's maybe attack this
00:33
Zack
Intrade and Augur were my experiments to sell before making. To make sure there would be enough demand to justify building Amoveo.
00:35
Spike Spiegel
At least we should copy their marketing collateral
00:36
Zack
it is important to do things that don't scale at the beginning. Customer support is how I can realize what software needs to be written.
http://paulgraham.com/ds.html
00:36
Sebsebzen
It's about the story you can tell, and also about the connections you have, having a company helps, as well as going to conferences, public speaking gigs
00:37
Spike Spiegel
And you would probably burn me for this but I think pitching to crypto focused VC like placeholder or Paradigm
00:37
Eric Arsenault
I agree that before we know who our target market is, we should not go crazy with marketing. This leads to a lot of wasted effort and money. However, marketing to builders and investors, and also doing product discovery / sales, is something that can and should be ongoing
00:38
Spike Spiegel
Dan Robinson from Paradigm created Rainbow Protocol which is using similar ideas to veo
00:39
Those companies aren't just giving cash for tokens / equity but also know how / connections / rare skills - if you want person that would help you in getting X then a16z already has specialist for that
00:39
Zack
My family has a farm. Weather insurance and crop derivatives are real financial products that are important for farming.
00:39
Spike Spiegel
Are they using derivatives now?
00:39
It's easier to convert somebody already using competitor solution than a person that doesn't
00:41
Zack
they rent out the farm now, I only have stories from my grandparents using derivatives.
00:42
Spike Spiegel
I think pitching to VC would be good idea as they can help with "soft side of biz" like marketing, sales, partnership, customer discovery etc...
00:42
Eric Arsenault
amoveo won't be taken seriously by VCs right now
00:42
VCs care a lot about the cover of the book
00:43
Sebsebzen
and its basically Zack and a github repo
00:43
Eric Arsenault
exactly
00:43
Sebsebzen
hence look at Zcash model
00:43
Spike Spiegel
Not true. VC that create value are able to get rough stone and turn it into diamond
00:43
Sebsebzen
they have a foundation
00:44
Eric Arsenault
I agree, but they are rare
00:44
and copyrights, trademarks
00:44
Eric Arsenault
Most VCs follow, and getting in front of the right people is very hard, I've done it
00:45
months of full time hard work to line up meetings
00:45
Spike Spiegel
It's hard for regular companies - easier for projects with product + coin.
00:46
It's lower risk for VC because coins are more liquid than equity
00:46
I would be happy with increased inflation rate if it would mean that professional team would work on making VEO better
00:46
Eric Arsenault
I'm not going to debate since we are just voicing opinions. I think it's hard.
00:46
Sebsebzen
it's also true tho that VEO could pump x10 easily\
00:47
Spike Spiegel
But pump is less important than assembling the Amoveo Avengers team
00:47
Sebsebzen
especially with VC softskills behind it
00:47
Sebsebzen
so from VC perspective, it could be interesting
00:48
usually what they ask, is to buy a stake at a discount rate
00:48
in exchange they will offer assistance
00:48
Eric Arsenault
Okay, so let me ask a question: what *should* our goals be in the short term then? Increase developers building on Amoveo? Create sales / marketing materials? stable VEO? I think first step is understanding our goals, then using futarchy to get there
00:48
Instinct
Vcs could be mining already
00:50
Spike Spiegel
If you hold 10% of VEO you don't actually have 10% of mcap value - because it's not liqudd and selling 10% of total mcap would kill the price.
So selling or assigning some % of founders reward for VC in exchange for services would provide instant cash for development + additional value from their brand and skills
00:50
Zack
we are currently trying to find our first useful application. So I think our strategy now should be to quickly iterate on the product, to keep putting different potential applications in front of potential users.
00:51
Instinct
Zack has followers from paradigm, polychain etc. on twitter
00:51
Spike Spiegel
Yes, but who will create MVP prototypes?
00:51
Eric Arsenault
there are also different elements: -recruit avengers team (builders), -raise awareness
00:52
Spike Spiegel
" keep putting different potential applications in front of potential users." -- what about organising a virtual hackathon to get those potential applications?
00:54
Zack
I think making more potential applications in parallel wont help us much.
Every failure allows us to learn and apply our knowledge to the next step.
Throwing more developers into the mix wont necessarily increase the rate at which we can iterate potential applications in front of users.
00:54
I think it is more useful to have people who can creatively use our existing tools to solve problems, instead of programmers
00:55
our light node can make any oracle to bet on. I think there is a lot of potential here without writing more code.
00:55
Spike Spiegel
of course throwing devs into the mix will help - frontend devs to make useful interfaces.
Makerdao was unusable with early interface and currently there are multiple websites with different easy to use experiences
00:57
Zack
Stas and Eric released an alternative light node.
exan.tech released an alternative light node.
Do you think that this code has increased the rate at which we put potential applications in front of potential users?
00:58
Spike Spiegel
new wallet for sending veo aren't that interesting as interfaces for stablecoin
00:59
Eric Arsenault
It has not, yet
00:59
1 day isn't enough time lol
00:59
Zack
Stas and Eric's light node did help to find bugs, and increase usability.
These are good things, and I am glad they put the work in.
01:00
exan.tech light node for android has made amoveo easier to use for a lot of people, I am glad it exists too.
01:01
I just don't see them increasing the rate of iteration of potential applications, yet. I am eager for Eric and Stas to overcome the threshold and begin helping in this way too.
01:01
Eric Arsenault
good UX should make product discovery efforts easier
01:03
Zack
Once we identify the product, there will come a time where ux is the most important thing being worked on
01:03
Spike Spiegel
For me this product is clear: stablecoin with zero VEO exposure
01:04
Zack
maybe. but why isn't there more trading for that then? Are we missing something?
It could be that stablecoins are just a support feature to make our true application work better.
01:04
Spike Spiegel
Something that doesn't require new rebalancing each month
01:04
DAI doesn't have expiry date
01:05
Zack
sure, that is a good line of thought to explore.
I am not sure how to build it inside state channels though.
01:06
Eric Arsenault
You just make VEO the stable asset
01:06
Spike Spiegel
I don't care as a user - anything that requires me to trade old stablecoin for new stablecoin is worse than Tether or DAI
01:06
That's the sad reality
01:06
Eric Arsenault
agreed
01:07
Spike Spiegel
People don't want to see how meat is produced, they want meat. Forcing them to see and understand how it's made would cause hunger
01:08
Smart people don't try to win arguments - they just win
01:08
Zack
That is the case lately in the crypto world, but what if we look at the bigger picture?
Most financial derivatives are not on the blockchain.
When institutional investors need to hedge millions of dollars of currency risk, what do their contracts look like?
01:09
There are reasons that financial derivatives are formatted the way they are.
We have had thousands of years of trial and error optimizing them.
01:10
Eric Arsenault
but base asset of financial derivatives are USD for example, which is stable
01:11
Zack
USD is stable compared to BTC.
01:12
There are people who own lots of USD, and they consider it a risk that they need to hedge for
01:13
Mr Flintstone
I think trading synthetic assets should get popular if our interface handles it well . lots of people don’t have access to lots of publicly traded investments
01:13
Zack
yeah, maybe the killer app will be giving access to investment to more people.
01:13
Mr Flintstone
I think there is enough demand for long veo to create these products as well
01:15
(this is just to get the conversation going)
01:17
Sebsebzen
We need the Jony Ive to Zack’s Jobness
01:18
Zack
Are there any foreigners who are restricted from owning popular USA brands like Amazon or Tesla?
01:18
Eric Arsenault
"discovering" this killer app is hard work. Zack is extremely talented, but it needs more than 1 person.
01:19
Sebsebzen
Hello China
01:19
Eric Arsenault
I was also trying to find restriction information as well
01:19
Zack
So maybe we should try and make a coherent tool in chinese so they can invest in Amazon
01:19
Eric Arsenault
on derivatives... it's not that easy to find, other than the ban on onion derivatives
01:19
Mr Flintstone
people can pretty easily use amoveo to sell amazon or Tesla shares, just be careful depending on your jurisdiction. like I wouldn’t participate if you are in USA
01:20
Zack
it seems like it wouldn't be hard to keep your anonymity while doing this
01:20
you can post trade offers to 4chan
01:21
Mr Flintstone
we could pay them to long Chainlink
01:21
Sebsebzen
Investing in stocks with crypto would be amazing actually