01:22
Sebsebzen
If it has a good UI and feels somewhat safe
01:22
Mr Flintstone
Eric and I are messing around with that on his nodes test mode
01:22
Sebsebzen
But so sorry for being bit noob on this, that would be a derivative right, there is not actual stock in custody
01:23
Sebsebzen
So no counterparts risk?
01:23
Mr Flintstone
they are synthetic amazon shares
01:23
no counterparty risk
01:23
Mr Flintstone
the risk is veo drops too much
01:23
Sebsebzen
Most ETFs are that nowadays
01:23
Mr Flintstone
or amazon moves too much
01:24
Sebsebzen
Can it be paired with BTC?
01:24
Mr Flintstone
what do you mean?
01:24
Sebsebzen
VEO marketcap is too small to not fluctuate wildly
01:25
Mr Flintstone
if you want more protection from veo price risk, you can pay for more safety
01:25
Sebsebzen
Interesting
01:25
Mr Flintstone
or, you can decrease the length of time of the contract
01:25
Sebsebzen
But let’s say I want to invest BTC into a stock derivative
01:25
Eric Arsenault
I just don't like that you end up holding VEO after your contract, which has a lot of risk
01:26
Sebsebzen
I would need to change to VEO first?
01:26
Eric Arsenault
if our use case was farming... and people are using amoveo to protect their crop
01:26
they don't want to hold VEO which could drop 40% after contract ends
01:26
Mr Flintstone
it shouldn’t take too much time to send to exchange and sell. or you could even exchange it for stable BTC immediately, then do an atomic swap for real btc
01:26
Sebsebzen
There’s no real price for VEO atm
01:26
With volume of 400 usd per day
01:26
Zack
ok, so lets go with this roadmap for May:
1) a bunch of UX fixes based on what we learned in the last iteration, and the ideas from Eric and Stas' new light node.
2) find some chinese speaking person who we can ask questions of to make sure the P2P derivatives tool makes sense.
3) find a forum of Chinese people who want to invest in Amazon who we can put the contracts in front of.
Even if it doesn't work, I think we will learn a lot from this.
01:27
yeah, this is a problem for any stablecoin contracts
01:28
Alternatively, if we could find a bookie to interview, and make tools optimized for them.
01:28
Sebsebzen
Again I’m bit noob, but would it be possible to do derivative paired with BTC, and only use VEO for the smartcontract? Or do I get the concept totally wrong?
01:29
Mr Flintstone
like bet on the btc price of something?
01:29
Eric Arsenault
There are many use cases I've thought of, and that have been discussed here. We can do many tests in parallel. Most of the work is in identifying customers, talking to them
01:29
Sebsebzen
Amazon/BTC, using VEO blockchain
01:29
Eric Arsenault
the bet itself is easy
01:29
Sebsebzen
And btc in custody or smth
01:29
Zack
Amoveo only has VEO.
A channel has a finite amount of veo in it.
All Amoveo smart contracts are inside the channels.
The most money you can receive from a smart contract is 100% of the veo from it's channel.
01:30
Eric Arsenault
I would rather see a shotgun approach, try 5 use cases by contacting people, selling the concept, trying things
01:30
Sebsebzen
Hmmm ok, then it’s a bit chicken and egg problem
01:30
Zack
if your counter-party is willing to lock more veo in the channel, then you can have wider margins.
01:30
Eric Arsenault
but I agree with this approach, I just think it can be accelerated
01:31
and sales materials / marketing materials (like community site) would facilitate this process
01:31
Sebsebzen
Tbh the Chinese test subjects would be very sceptical and apprehensive
01:32
Zack
that is a good attitude towards blockchain projects.
We can start very small and work our way towards bigger contracts.
It is their time that we need, not their money.
01:33
Eric Arsenault
we don't know until we try. but of course is there is just a github repo, it looks scammy from the outside. it needs to look nice
01:34
Zack
For me, if I see someone spend all their effort on image and none on substance, it looks like a scam to me.
I prefer it when 100% of the effort goes towards achieving the stated goal, and none is wasted on looking cool.
01:35
Eric Arsenault
but you need to understand that customers / partners are used to seeing brands that look professional
01:37
I'm not talking about spending millions on creating designs and decks and more
01:37
I'm just saying we need a minimum amount which will reduce friction
01:37
it's all about reducing friction
01:39
Zack
reducing friction is good. We want ease of use.
01:39
Eric Arsenault
yes, and ease of partnerships, use cases, testers
01:39
if there is friction in this process, it slows everything else
01:41
having a basic community run website + basic marketing material would greatly reduce this friction
01:46
Eric Arsenault
This is ok, but it is not open source / community run
01:47
How do I make changes to it?
01:54
Stepan Panov
I'm in touch with people who run it, I could put you through to them maybe
01:58
Eric Arsenault
for example, if I want to email potential partners, I would need an
@amoveo.io email
02:00
Stepan Panov
I honestly think this could be done potentially. I gotta run now, but remind me about it tomorrow i'll ask about it
02:00
Eric Arsenault
Great. Making the site open source would be great, then community can help make it better
02:04
Zack
the real reason people use emails like that is so their boss can cut them off from all their conversations about work.
02:06
Eric Arsenault
I’m not disagreeing with you, but there are social norms that are pretty entrenched.
02:13
Example: say I start reaching out to farmers for a use case. Scenario A) I email from my gmail account, telling them I am "working" for a project looking to create derivative products that can help them reduce risk. Here is
amoveo.io and here is github... first thing that comes to their mind is: Why is this guy emailing from a gmail account. He is likely a scammer. Scenario B) I email from a legit domain, and domain information lines up with my pitch. This scenario has a lot less friction, and they are much more likely to talk/listen.
02:37
Alfred
Cold calling works in a few % of the case tho
02:37
But sure if you link them to a github not gonna have too much conversions 😅
02:40
I heard there was a website that would come out at some point to list some contract offers, would be nice then
02:46
The Ancients
Why would Amazon be needed in China when they have their very own platform called TaoBao.
02:47
Eric Arsenault
Choice should be available that’s all. Maybe they don’t want it, maybe they do
02:54
This is an important next step.
03:00
Zack
Can Americans invest in taobao?
03:01
Maybe we want probabilistic payments first.
It would make it a lot easier to program this.
03:02
Eric Arsenault
I don’t understand the relationship tbh
03:04
Zack
It's an anti-spam measure.
Preventing sybil spam is one of the hardest parts of a website like that
03:04
Eric Arsenault
So idea would be to have micro payments to submit bets (and thus have barrier to spam)?
03:05
That also gets rid of the need for accounts or logging in
03:05
Eric Arsenault
We could build the marketplace and integrate these features once ready
03:05
Zack
You need Veo to participate. So your Veo account is enough of an id already
03:06
Alfred
Yup that's how it should be done
03:06
Eric Arsenault
What are you referring
03:06
Alfred
Logging with a veo account
03:07
Eric Arsenault
Yeah
03:08
I feel like anti spam is needed, but we could build functionality first and get a good ux built. If people want to spam offers initially, they can go ahead
03:10
Zack
Integrating the website with the light node could be tricky.
Our options:
1) a light node plug in for your browser.
2) copy pasting data from the light node to the website and back
3) turn the light node into a browser for looking at these derivative websites.
03:10
I am looking most at (3)
03:10
Alfred
1 is better imho
03:11
Zack
(3) is the option we went with for channel hub markets.
(1) is how amoveo book works, I think.
03:12
Zack
(2) is how p2p derivatives work
03:12
Alfred
Read that wrong
03:12
Eric Arsenault
I was imagining market would work like (2)
03:13
Alfred
Turn the lightnode into a plugin and build a website on top of it ahah
03:13
Zack
I think any of these strategies can work, but one of them is probably easiest.
03:14
Alfred
I like turning light node into a js module tbh, would be willing to help for that as well
03:14
Eric Arsenault
Isn’t this already how it works
03:14
Zack
Then you would be trusting the website to serve the honest version of the light node.
03:16
Eric Arsenault
(3) is the best option. (2) is the easiest. I think what is built in (2) could be applied to (3) once functionality for (3) is ready
03:17
Zack
I have a lot less confidence in making this decision than you. I guess because I have made the wrong choice with these kinds of decisions so many times.
03:18
I guess we just need to push forward making the most reusable parts first, and trust that it will get clearer with time.
03:19
Eric Arsenault
Yeah, I agree.
@nobiembrex what do you think?
03:21
Deleted Account
> turn the light node into a browser for looking at these derivative websites.
Does this mean shipping an actual browser?
03:22
Zack
it would be a browser in the same sense that the channel hub part of the light node is a browser.
03:22
Eric Arsenault
(Answer is no: not a traditional browser like Chrome)
03:23
Zack
I am not the best with words, I am not sure what to call that design pattern besides a "browser"
03:24
Eric Arsenault
Explorer maybe
03:25
Zack
an explorer is a server that tells you about data from the blockchain.
If you had a tool that could connect to explorers being served by anyone, and this tool would display the data from the explorer some visual way, that would be a browser.
03:26
the same way you can use firefox to browse
blockchain.info and other block explorers, I am imagining you could use the Amoveo light node to browse servers that host P2P derivative offers.
03:26
Eric Arsenault
Right...
03:27
Then I guess we call it a “browser” lol
03:27
Zack
it is the best word that I can think of for this
03:29
Eric Arsenault
Makes sense, as long as we understand each other
03:30
Deleted Account
I think it just needs a prefix in that case
03:30
<offer, etc> browser
03:31
Just like block explorer is a <block> explorer
06:09
Zack
maybe online markets have taken over, and bookies disappeared
06:12
Eric Arsenault
that's what I found while searching yesterday lol
06:12
I asked a few friends, they all laughed
11:55
Zack
keys.compress("BBEuaxBNwXiTpEMTZI2gExMGpxCwAapTyFrgWMu5n4cIcqPojDz40Trf7xdWDlHL8KH+AvrTc2dhSC+35eSjmaQ=");
"AhEuaxBNwXiTpEMTZI2gExMGpxCwAapTyFrgWMu5n4cI"I got the pubkey compression and decompression working in javascript
11:56
keys.decompress(keys.compress("BBEuaxBNwXiTpEMTZI2gExMGpxCwAapTyFrgWMu5n4cIcqPojDz40Trf7xdWDlHL8KH+AvrTc2dhSC+35eSjmaQ="));
"BBEuaxBNwXiTpEMTZI2gExMGpxCwAapTyFrgWMu5n4cIcqPojDz40Trf7xdWDlHL8KH+AvrTc2dhSC+35eSjmaQ="
12:01
Currently the light node includes a bigInt library, which is necessary for calculating the 32 byte values in chalang.
12:01
it looks like since the light node was written there is now a new standard for browsers to have a built in big numbers system, and it works better than the library.
12:25
Deleted Account
is it posslble to create a stable coin on amoveo that can be traded on centralized exchange?
12:27
Zack
yes. If you are running a full node you can turn on the ability for people to make channels with you.
Then you can host a market so that everyone who has channels with you can make bets in the trustless centralized exchange
12:28
Eric Arsenault
But you can’t create a stablecoin that can be traded on an exchange like binance for example
12:28
Deleted Account
how is it better than usdt?
12:28
Zack
Because Binance hasn't enabled support yet.
12:29
Deleted Account
or usdc
12:29
Eric Arsenault
Didn’t consider that...
12:29
Zack
Is that tether?
12:29
Deleted Account
yes
12:29
Zack
Centralized and trustful is even easier than centralized and trustless
12:30
Since we already have trustless, there isn't much reason to make a trusted version
12:30
Tether depends on a centralized company to safely store the usd to back up the supply.
12:30
I am not sure what usdc means
12:31
Amoveo has no central authority controlling the Oracle. It is trust-free
12:34
Deleted Account
usdc is just another centralizrd stable coin.
12:37
usdt allow moving funds between exchanges, that's useful
16:24
MC = TH
The left term is quite simply the market cap. The right term is the economic value transacted per day, multiplied by the amount of time that a user holds a coin before using it to transact.
16:24
Another, and perhaps even more important, conclusion is that the market cap of an appcoin depends crucially on the holding time H. If someone creates a very efficient exchange, which allows users to purchase an appcoin in real time and then immediately use it in the application, then allowing sellers to immediately cash out, then the market cap would drop precipitously.
16:25
channels should help veo increase holding time
16:32
OTOH, if everyone would want to offload VEO exposure, that negates it (
16:33
to make ppl consider having VEO exposure during the life of the deriv, VEO/USD should behave well. e.g. if the rate of locking veo in channels is greater than the inflation, that should help
16:39
Deleted Account
how do you define app coin?if it's centralized utiltiy token(e.g. subcurrency on ethereum) i think it obvously worth 0 . no calculation needed.
Oladotun invited Oladotun
16:46
Deleted Account
veo is protocol level coin i think
16:46
A K
check the article ) question is, why would anyone hold VEO beyond necessary
16:46
and if no one does, market cap = zero
16:46
for a wide range of "necessary"
16:46
Deleted Account
why do you believe people hold bitcoin
16:47
A K
btc is an exception - store of value nongovernmental
16:47
see discussion yesterday above ) veo can't compete on that
16:59
Deleted Account
i wont read the article now , but it's simple. best store of value= most secure & decentralized ( it's better if it's scalable). so in the long term, bitcoin may not be the winner despite its net work effect. there will be 3-4 winners.
17:02
A K
yeah might be 3-4. veo unlikely to be one of them, imo.
17:02
it's not what Zack has in mind anyways
19:16
Victor
Who wants to bring liquidity on Vinex? There are holders of Veil, that would like to sell their Veil or put their BTC to some service.
I started with myself, putting a bid for 0.67 VEO @ 0.01225.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
20:12
Zack
No.
The Veo stay locked in the contract for the duration. Even if you buy stablecoins.
20:22
Evans Pan
Dont waste your time to target Chinese who want to invest in Amazon.....
20:36
VEO offering a platform to short every major crypto asset is much more realistic and practical.
20:40
Zack
shorting crypto could be a great idea
20:41
Evans Pan
I wanted to short high flyer like holo, rvn, abcc, but no where to go
20:41
the market is there, there is huge demand for this.
20:42
If there was a cool UI for it demand would not be too hard to find
20:42
Zack
is there some reason you haven't used the light node to make an offer to short holo/rvn/abcc already?
20:42
Alfred
It's too hard to use RN to get enough demand imho
20:43
Zack
Everyone time someone uses it and complains, we have more data about how to improve
20:43
Alfred
I was quite busy this week but I intend to make some more extensive feedback
20:44
Evans Pan
still too complicated to use
20:44
Zack
We have plenty of things to fix already.
I guess in a week or two ill make some contracts to sell shorts in those 3 cryptocurrencies
20:48
Alfred
If I have some questions about light-node code would be more suitable on discord or TG?
20:49
Evans Pan
nice, its ABBC coin for correction
20:49
Zack
both are fine.
TG will probably get faster responses, but the
#light-node channel in discord will move more slowly, so it is better if you expect the discussion to take hours or days
TG gets a lot of usage, so conversations are buried quickly.
21:11
A K
If one offloads veo risk, someone accepts it or has to sell physical veo
21:13
Zack
In Amoveo if you make a contract in a channel, the net risk profile of the channel is VEO.
If you combine the contracts on both sides of the channel, all that you are left with is VEO.
21:13
you can't sell the collateral in your channel without closing the channel and ending the smart contracts.
21:15
A K
Yep, and I am considering the case where ppl don't want veo risk. Cos face it, most don't want
21:16
Ppl want derivs in usd
21:16
Zack
If one side of the channel has no veo risk, that means the other side has double veo risk.
21:17
On the one hand, locking veo in channels helps holding time and market cap
21:17
On the other, if everyone would like USD based derivs, that negates it
22:40
Eric Arsenault
@LingLingCapital did you see updated light node UX? I'm happy to walk you through it
22:42
The discussion here is really round holding a volatile asset. If VEO was not volatile, this wouldn't be an issue. I'm a fan of a using futarchy to have a stable slow growing VEO price, then we get rid of this issue.
22:43
A K
how can you use futarchy for that?
22:43
i mean, no one would be against that
22:44
neither stability fee in DAI nor mining reward in VEO have shown a significant impact on price
22:44
Eric Arsenault
you adjust inflation dynamically, or have market maker mechanism, or both
22:45
A K
we can set inflation (mining reward) = 0, doesn't mean veo will slowly appreciate
22:45
Eric Arsenault
yeah, market maker on VEO price would be needed
22:45
A K
would do you mean by that?
22:45
Eric Arsenault
Spike suggested this a while back and I've talked a lot to him about this idea
22:45
A K
someone will have to accept veo risk?
22:45
aka convince ppl to buy and hold veo?
22:46
how do you do it with futarchy??
22:46
check Vitaliks article - I understand how avg holding time impacts market cap
22:46
Eric Arsenault
No: say you had a large pool of VEO, a market maker could create stability
22:46
Eric Arsenault
if people try to sell, you sell then VEO
22:47
this prevents price from decreasing
22:47
A K
there's no magic in market making it's an activity with risks
22:47
market making in illiquid assets doubly so
22:47
Eric Arsenault
right - there is risk
22:47
A K
so how do you solve it with futarchy?
22:48
Eric Arsenault
I have a call I'm late for so I need to end this rather abruptly
22:48
feel free to DM me, I enjoy talking about this
22:49
A K
i enjoy talking here (in this channel), feel free to pickup on this topic when you're back )
22:49
Eric Arsenault
sounds good
22:54
Zack
im interviewing this guy who is like the modern version of a bookie.
He calculates odds every 3 seconds and sells the data to casinos
22:55
if you have questions, you should send them now
23:01
A K
what would make him hold VEO risk
23:07
Zack
when interviewing potential users, a common mistake is to think you should be trying to explain your product and get them to comment on it.
Really what you should be doing is trying to understand their job well enough so that you can find out where your product would be useful to them.
Franck 🇨🇮🇨🇮🇨🇮 Claver invited Franck 🇨🇮🇨🇮🇨🇮 Claver
Deleted invited Deleted Account
00:10
Eric Arsenault
For sure. Its about understand their job and problems faced
00:27
Eric Arsenault
If amoveo was committed to having stable price, it could use block rewards to ensure a stable price for example
00:27
If you have deep enough pockets, you can make the price do anything you want
00:30
Instinct
That's also forcefully putting a limit on potential upside which I don't think is good
00:33
Eric Arsenault
You can go long VEO
00:33
With as much leverage as you want
00:35
Instinct
Yes but you're talking about keeping it stable when historically price of crypto assets rise exponentially
00:38
Eric Arsenault
If VEO was rising 10% per year, every year, this is exponential behaviour. If you want added leverage, you could get it
00:39
Instinct
- in short time frames
00:39
Eric Arsenault
Yeah, I’m not disagreeing this would be nice
00:39
Instinct
I understand, just don't think it would benefit the project at current market cap
00:40
Maybe once we're at a few billion 😜
00:40
Eric Arsenault
This is what I’m talking about
00:40
Eric Arsenault
With stability, derivative applications could thrive
01:05
Stepan Panov
Just placed a test bet with a friend of mine through Eric's UX, smooth sailing! Great job
@arsena21!
01:05
by 'test bet' I mean a bet with real VEO on the mainnet, we were 'testing' the new UX
01:21
Zack
That is great to hear! I am glad it is working.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
07:14
Alfred
anyone's been using amoveo node http API?
07:15
Zack
the light node uses it.
07:16
Alfred
Yea, I'm struggling to dive into light-node code though so I was trying to make minimal code to communicate with node myself, experiment a bit
07:16
Zack
you can use curl to use the api from the command line.
07:17
Alfred
yup, I already did with curl, now trying with node.js
Deleted invited Deleted Account
08:00
Zack
I want to do a hard update so that new_channel_tx no longer use a nonce for replay protection.
Currently if people post multiple new_channel_tx at the same time from the same account, only one can get accepted, and then the rest become invalid.
To prevent replay attacks, we will have these rules:
* new channel tx need to specify an NLockTime block height, after which the tx becomes invalid.
* the number of blocks until NLockTime needs to be less than the channel delay, this way it isn't possible to force the channel to close early to get your money out.
We also need to update otc_finisher so that it will refuse to close a channel until the nlocktime from the tx that created it has passed.
08:01
I programmed it already, but I am going to wait a little time for us to reflect on these changes before we start activating this hard update.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
16:20
Zack
Does anyone know about gozo exchange?
They say that they have veo/usd trading based in Malta.
Who do I contact from them when amoveo needs updates?
16:22
Instinct
I think they're related to exantech
18:24
Alfred
The API is answering in ~800ms to 8 different http request I'm making, gotta love the speed :D
19:40
Alfred
Zack I found an inconsistency in the API as well: "oracle_bets" doesn't wrap up with a "ok" on success it seems
19:41
Also, could you point to some documentation when it comes to deciphering responses like:
"
[ -7,
[ 'ob', 0, 5000, [ -6 ], [ -6 ], 5000, 13200, 200, 0 ],
'QW1vdmVvJ3MgZGlmZmljdWx0eSBpcyBhYm92ZSAyNzAwMCB0aC9iIGFzIG1lYXN1cmVkIGJ5IGV4cGxvcmVyLmh0bWwgYXQgaGVpZ2h0IDEyMDAx' ]
"
😅
21:03
Zack
I'm not sure where you got that from.
If you are more specific, I can tell you what it is for.
21:22
Alfred
It's the return from ["oracle","oid"]
21:23
But more generally I find it hard to understand what the responses are meaning
21:25
So if there's any documentation somewhere other than the code I'll gladly take it :D
21:25
Otherwise will have to ask you for every call and document it myself ahah
21:28
Zack
I still don't know what you are talking about.
This is the return from what function?
Is this an api call?
21:28
Alfred
Yes i'm talking about the API
21:28
Zack
Internal or external?
21:30
Zack
This is returning the data about a market hosted on this node, if you set it up as a channel hub and choose to host this market.
Also it returns the text of the Oracle.
21:33
Alfred
I'm on a phone now, will ask more complete questions when I'm on a working environment.
The API seems very lightweight but the cons compared to a json RPC is that the fields are not very self explanatories. I'm willing to help dig through it and document it as I implement it tho
21:34
Zack
It is a Json rpc.
Everything it accepts and returns is valid Json
21:34
Alfred
It lacks naming tho :)
21:34
Zack
Lists are a Json object too. Not just dictionaries
21:35
Alfred
Yea I know I was more talking about the namings
21:35
Zack
Names aren't compatible with making signatures, it isn't deterministicaly ordered.
I don't want to have to write serialization libraries in js and erlang for everything that can be signed.
21:35
Alfred
Explained myself poorly :)
21:36
Zack
It's easier to write code to apply names after the fact, instead of code to deterministicaly remove names before making/verifying signatures.
21:36
Especially since the names would waste bytes of bandwidth
21:38
Alfred
Yea it's not a problem, just need a side documentation as reference
21:38
Yea I agree I wasn't suggesting to change that
21:39
Zack
There are probably some unused things in the Api we can delete
21:39
Alfred
Just expect me to ask lots of questions about X or Y response that I don't understand which I will document along the way
21:41
Zack
Sure, I'm glad to help.
I think I would prefer comments or better names for variables in ext_handler.erl instead of pages of documentation when possible.
It is easier to maintain the docs during updates if it is all in the same place
21:42
Alfred
Right now my approach is to implement a reference client against amoveo API and documenting return values with a header comment. That allows for automatic documentation generation afterward
22:06
Zack
So is this an additional service you run with a full node?
Or is this like a javascript toolkit that is a part of the light node?
22:12
Alfred
Right now it's nothing but testing things around.
Technically it's interfacing with a full node so could be extended into a light node I'd say
22:12
I just call that reference client
22:14
Zack
If some faster version of amoveo was written in rust or go language, then amoveo in erlang would be the amoveo reference client.
The way python ethereum is the ethereum reference client
22:16
Oh, I think I am thinking of a reference node.
So you are making example code to use the Api. That is good.
22:27
Zack
great! I am here if you have any questions.
And if you put it on github, I can look through and give you pointers.
22:30
Alfred
Yes it'll be on github
10:12
Topab
It is a centralized system but people can start buying stocks and other in places like
https://currency.com/ Looking forward to see Amoveo gaining adoption
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01:07
sanket
Zack any GoT markets for predicton?
01:11
Zack
Maybe we should make some markets for who controls the iron throne at the end of the last episode
01:17
sanket
We would need to create one for every 2 person,no?
01:18
Zack
one per person I would think
01:21
yeah, and many people know the outcome since they participated in filming
01:25
Sure.
gambling on how TV shows turn probably wont ever be a killer app, but it can be a fun way to attract people to test out the p2p derivatives tool.
I prefer testers who are trying it out because they want to use it instead of testers who are being paid to test.
01:30
futarchy is a tool for distilling accurate information from a community of people.
If someone knows more information, and they use it to profit, that means futarchy is working correctly.
01:30
futarchy is designed to reward people for revealing good information
01:30
so they aren't a "bad actor", they are good actors do exactly what we intended.
01:38
Futarchy is a way to prevent propaganda.
For example, if a politician makes false promises, we can use a futarchy market to reward the people who reveal to use that it is all lies.
01:39
They can prove to us that the politician is lying without revealing their identities, or any specific information about how they can be so confident that it is a lie.
01:39
And they can make big profits this way.
02:08
Alfred
All the "-6" and "-7" stands for undefined?
02:08
I mean the returns of the API
02:12
Or is it to specify any sort of types
02:44
Zack
Types.
-6 is for a list -7 is for a tuple.
04:27
Zack
cool, I haven't read typescript before
04:42
Alfred
I like typescript, it's not hard to setup and improves quality imo
05:24
Alfred
So now I'm trying to map an oracle response to something like:
export interface Oracle {
id: string;
market: any[];
text: string;
}
Where could I find informations to decipher the market datas for example?
05:25
Zack
what part of the api are you talking about?
05:25
is this internal or external api?
05:26
basically want to transform :
[ 'ob', 0, 5000, [ -6 ], [ -6 ], 5000, 13200, 200, 0 ]
into a mapped interface. [3] seems to be contract id? how can I figure out what others mean?
05:26
Zack
{oracle, OID}
this api request?
05:26
Alfred
yes this one
05:26
Zack
it doesn't return "ob", it returns "oracle".
05:26
oh, I was looking at internal.
05:27
Alfred
Oooh nice, so basically I have to grep into the full node codebase and I should find what I need
05:28
Zack
records that are only used in one page are defined on that page.
05:29
Alfred
oh that's great
05:37
that file just made my day better ahah
05:38
Zack
great :)
Feel free to ask questions
05:56
no one posted any offer yet.
06:11
Zack
I posted an offer to sell some stablecoin at an expensive price, just so you have an example of what it looks like.
06:38
Alfred
It's weird because a call to ["list_oracles"] is only returning
[ -6, 'VQjYhAnvoMju2MC/FN9FKLYShtkIAeKNNWatH9qcxJA=' ]
right now
06:39
It corresponds to "'Amoveo\'s difficulty is above 27000 th/b as measured by explorer.html at height 12001'"
06:40
Zack
it only lists oracles for which it is storing channel offers.
06:40
oh, you are talking about on your node
06:40
Alfred
I think I'm using yours 😅
06:41
Zack
right. I was thinking you were tlaking about the website I just posted
06:41
list_oracles is only the oracles that it is running channel node markets for
06:41
you have to enable a market before anyone can trade in it using your channel hub.
06:42
Alfred
"P = the price of USD in VEO on
qtrade.io from 0 to 0.05 on May 31, 2019, at 12:00 Noon GMT; return P * 1024 / 0.05 bit number 0"
so if I want to see this one, I have to interact with it in the first place?
06:43
Zack
this is documentation on how to add more markets to your node.
06:43
I have only added that one market to that node.
06:43
if you run a node, you could add different markets.
06:44
So what I'm seeing corresponds only to a market on the node
159.65.120.84
06:48
So to aggregate the 91 oracles (liveOracles: 91), I would have to poll each node see what market they have opened
06:57
Zack
most oracles are not being used to run channel node markets.
06:57
in fact, I think there are no active channel node markets now.
06:58
Alfred
Oh are the other oracles those for governance?
07:00
some oracles are used for governance.
You can connect a channel node market to a governance oracle.
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07:00
Zack
Oracles are on-chain data structures.
channel node markets are a program running on a single centralized server that many people have made channels with.
07:01
multiple servers can be running markets connected to the same oracle.
or there could be zero servers connected to an oracle.
07:07
Alfred
ok, that was a lot to process
07:10
but what I see from "list_oracles" is just for the node I'm polling and have different structure
07:11
Zack
the list_oracles api request gives a list of all the oracles for which that amoveo full node is running channel node markets.
07:11
channel node markets are optional, most full node do not use this feature.
07:11
Alfred
Yea I think I understand now, cool
07:17
Alfred
So this assumes a manual input from a user to know which oracle?
07:18
Zack
this is an api request just like any other api request.
07:41
Alfred
cool it works
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19:38
According to game theory, it's supposed to be the most secure, reliable oracle. So, why is it, that it always answers 'Bad Question'?
19:59
Zack
"bad question" is the default starting state before anyone has reported on the actual outcomes of the oracle.
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20:14
Deleted Account
Selling Amoveo for 40$ or 0.006 Btc
20:18
Zack
you should use discord
#trading channel, or one of the exchanges.
20:19
Zack
0.06 BTC = $337
20:19
Deleted Account
Lol 0.006
20:27
Instinct
He's likely a scammer
20:28
Deleted Account
Lol
20:29
Zack
You can sell* over 70 veo on qtrade at a better price
20:30
Instinct
Same pic as this Lawrence guy who deleted his account
20:30
Deleted Account
Lol
20:31
Zack
you can talk about if he is a scammer in
#trading-reputation channel in discord. not here.
20:44
Šea
Yeah he is probably not serious
20:47
Zack
Is qtrade blocked in bolivia? can anyone confirm?
20:52
Šea
I dont think qtrade is blocked anywhere
20:56
Zack
Andrea Toros is banned.
01:07
Eric Arsenault
Lol that was quick
02:09
The Ancients
we going down down down
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13:11
L S
Zack are there any plans to hire another developers for secondary tasks ?
you could also arrange VEO rewards for an alternative implementation in another language like c#
I mean.... well... just saying
14:00
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
Why dumping bro?
14:02
Eric Arsenault
Lol 😂 Andrea?
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04:06
Zack
At the end of the final game of thrones episode, Tyrion the dwarf sits on the iron throne, and all these characters are dead: cersei, jon, dynarus, and the mountain.
Do you think I can get 10:1 odds with this?
04:29
Sy
Thats never gonna happen xD
04:56
Zack
So you will put up 10 Veo for 1 of my Veo?
07:45
Mike
Interesting offer
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10:20
Eric Arsenault
Thought: we should create markets for Amoveo's goals. This way we can track them, and improve them.
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12:22
sanket
I like this much more. This way people are interested in following the development.
12:46
Minieep21
Just need Tyrion to sit or assume he is ruling?
12:47
Zack
he has to have military control of the chair at least.
Which probably means he controls the whole city.
13:04
Minieep21
What if the chair gets melted down and no one sits on it?
13:05
Zack
Nobody wins.
It's all about the chair
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20:27
Zack
I made it 20:1, but I put it on the website
21:53
Topab
"decentralization is not ideological but a design advantage" it is something I never thought of but it makes sense
22:38
Zack
that is great! ))
22:40
Eric Arsenault
Great job getting this together Stepan :)
23:29
The Ancients
awesome
23:35
Mr Flintstone
Cool that you guys are going to put together English subtitles for this!
23:36
Sebsebzen
Wished I could come
23:40
Stepan Panov
We'll see how long that'll take, but that's the intent. We might do a separate DAC for this later on.
00:18
Zack
Do you think you guys can get the videos published before the oracle expires?
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02:40
Stepan Panov
Videos could be published before the Oracle expires, but definitely without the subtitles I'm afraid, that'll take too much time
02:41
Deleted Account
love it!
02:41
Stepan Panov
The Oracle starts like 3-4 days after the meetup
02:42
Zack
People would probably be more willing to participate in the DAC if they know they will be able to see videos before the oracle expires
02:44
Stepan Panov
I agree. I'll see what we can do, maybe we'll make a new one so there's more time or we'll have a separate one for making subtitles later on.
02:47
Zack
Probably just publicly publishing the intention of posting the videos before the oracle settles is enough.
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04:02
sanket
What website?
04:54
sanket
Is it not mobile compatible
04:56
Zack
what step doesn't work? the page loads on my phone.
04:56
Eric Arsenault
No it is not. Anyone want to participate in a DAC?
04:56
Zack
I used the same sort of tools as the light node which is mobile compatible
04:56
Eric Arsenault
Wait sorry
04:57
I mean, that site is fine on mobile
04:57
I was talking about the P2P derivative front end DAC
04:58
sanket
Worked. Didn't work on my firewall.
05:00
Zack
haha! you took my bet for 20:1
05:01
or was it someone else?
05:04
Mr Flintstone
it got taken? It still seems to be on the page?
05:04
Zack
it is supposed to disappear after 5 minutes, but there could be a bug
05:05
ill check out the error log
05:05
Mr Flintstone
how do you know it was taken? tx in the pool?
05:05
Zack
I see that I have 1 less veo in that account
05:05
I’m gonna lol if you manage to make 20 veo off this hahaha
05:06
Zack
im going to try to sell my risk and make arbitrage profit before the outcome happens
05:06
Zack
buy low, sell high.
05:06
Eric Arsenault
Awesome haha
05:07
I wonder what’s going to happen as we get closer to the final episode
05:08
Zack
I don't know who took the bet, they are anonymous
05:10
Mr Flintstone
maybe someone who works on the show
05:10
Eric Arsenault
Sourcex did
05:10
Then fell asleep lol
05:11
Zack
it didn't happen in any recent block
05:11
Mr Flintstone
interesting
05:11
Zack
I guess I will have to solo-close to get my money out when I win
05:12
Mr Flintstone
or you could offer them some veo to close it early
05:12
Zack
I guess I am willing to take 5, and they can keep the other 16, if they really want to end it early
05:21
I found the bug. old contracts are removed automatically now.
05:23
Stepan Panov
Yeah I was going to ask, if I'll post an offer on that website and someone accepts it, how will I know it got accepted?
05:25
Zack
both otc_listener and otc_finisher can tell you if your bet was already matched
05:25
otc_listner so that if someone is trying to match, they can see that they are too late.
otc_finisher so that if you try closing the channel early, it gives you good info
05:26
Stepan Panov
Getting a notification or a message about it would've been great, is it something that could be done sometime in the future or is it not possible?
05:28
Zack
interesting suggestion.
I have never written a notifications system before, so it isn't something I can give good estimates about.
I guess I should just make an api for looking up if bets are matched, and then anyone can write a android app to contact that api?
05:28
you can already use the api on any full node to see if a channel with your channel ID exists or not.
I guess that is all you need for making a notifications app
05:29
or maybe I should integrate software into the website to email people when their bets are matched?
05:30
ive never written software for auto-emailing
05:30
Stepan Panov
I don't know if this can actually work within Amoveo, but ideally if I were to post a channel offer I'd love to get a notification or something like that if someone accepts it.
05:31
Eric Arsenault
Interesting concept
05:31
Stepan Panov
I think that would've been great!
05:32
Zack
I added another bet to the website
05:33
Stepan Panov
I think that a website with all the channel offers listed + some kind of a notification system for people accepting your offer could be the first killer app
05:34
Zack
Currently if you make multiple channel offers from one account, only one can get accepted, and then the rest become invalid
05:34
so I was thinking the next update would be to change it, so you can post multiple channel offers from the same account, and they can all get accepted
05:36
Stepan Panov
That is great! That would have to somehow correspond with the amount of VEO the offering account has in their wallet, right?
05:36
Zack
If you know some good software for notifications that works on linux, maybe I can find a way to integrate it
05:36
yeah, if you run out of money, that is another way that your existing channel offers can become invalid.
05:37
but the thing I want to change has to do with nonces.
To prevent transactions from being re-used, every time you make a tx you have to write the current nonce of your account, and it increases every time
05:37
the nonce in the new_channel_tx is the same for the different txs. so only one can get accepted.
05:37
Stepan Panov
I can't recommend anything of that nature unfortunately, but as a concept this sounds perfect to me. As an average user I would love to be able to post channel offers to the website and then be notified when another user accepts them.
05:38
Zack
It is not like you have to respond right away. you have at least a week until you have to do anything
05:41
Currently channels get deleted when they are closed. so we can't tell the different between a channel that was deleted vs a channel that has never existed.
I am thinking of changing this so we keep a record of all the deleted channels.
That will prevent any new_channel_tx from being reused, because the channel already exists in the database.
05:42
another option is that each new_channel_Tx already has an expiration date.
As long as users wait until after the expiration date to close their channels, then nothing bad will happen.
05:51
Eric Arsenault
This is another great idea. Having this record would be good I think
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07:36
Zack
I was able to set up this update so it doesn't reduce any existing functionality, and it objectively makes us more able to achieve the goals of Amoveo, so I think we don't need to deal with a futarchy market this time.
@Simon3456 @potat_o Can I get your support for this update?
I will let you review the code before making a final decision.
I am running final tests now.
07:47
Eric Arsenault
100% objectively yes
08:00
Zack
im thinking ill push the update now for height 10 million.
Then when we can agree on it, I will lower the update height to like 1 week in the future.
08:30
Zack
I pushed it, so you guys can see the changes now
09:20
Deleted Account
The market is lacking this big time, buy binance addin margin now they will take the lionshare of market for mainstream alts
09:24
Zack
Good suggestion.
It is like $12 now to make a new scalar oracle to short an altcoin.
09:30
Deleted Account
would be cool if you could make bets on network usage between 2 cryptocurrencies by a specific date
09:32
Zack
sure, that is only like $1.20 now.
binary bets are 1/10th the cost of scalar bets.
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11:22
so the only advantages of this update are that we have twice as much space for txs per megabyte of block, and that we need 1/18th as much space on the hard drive to store the same number of accounts.
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12:52
Zack
One of the people I sold 10 stablecoins to, he lost his private key.
So now whatever the result of the contract is, all the money on his side of the channel will get locked up in an account that no one can access.
12:53
This is one part of the UX I would love to see improved
12:53
Making it almost impossible not to f up
12:53
Zack
he says he had saved the private key, but then he cleaned out his downloads since then to open up space on his computer.
12:55
Eric Arsenault
That’s a shame
12:55
Zack
he is running software to try and recover deleted files. Maybe he will get lucky.
13:26
Topab
Would like to contribute
13:27
Aries
Anyone doing Blockchain Week in NYC?
13:28
Eric Arsenault
Awesome 😎
@sourcex will also be helping out. The more the merrier :)
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16:31
Sanjay
This token is listed on which Exchanges ?
17:01
Stepan Panov
I'm up for it
17:04
Not going to lie I can see myself doing that 😂
17:10
Alfred
Why not! Even though I'd rather invest time working on UX eheh :)
17:59
Stepan Panov
It's not mostly mined out, there's currently no limit on the overall supply.
18:00
There is no emission curve. Amoveo has governance mechanisms in place for community to decide on everything, including emission, block rewards and overal supply.
18:05
It's the amount of time it takes to mine one block
18:06
10-11 minutes per block right now
18:25
Sebsebzen
Putin is lead dev
18:28
We are all paid trolls
18:38
Šea
Is that for me?
18:41
A K
a lot of complex interactio happens in state channels and thus is instant
18:41
only settlement requires onchain
18:41
1000x more scalable than e.g. Augur
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21:54
Zack
Amoveo contracts are inside the lightning network. So you don't have to wait any confirmations to update a contract. It is as fast as sending a message to your channel partner.
21:54
Most people are anonymous. We don't know where they are from.
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22:33
Eric Arsenault
😂haha
22:34
O K
Can't wait to hear how successful everything is when you play with them on the testnet
22:35
Zack
I think we can make syncing a lot faster on low-bandwidth machines, and save disk space at the same time.
Currently we store blocks one to a file, we compress each block individually.
I am thinking we should store like 50 blocks at a time, and compress them all together.
While syncing we should send the 50 blocks as a single compressed binary.
22:37
you can try it out in test mode now, it is working correctly.
The fork is set to activate at block height 1000000, but if you run in test mode the fork activates at height 0.
22:43
Looks like I can add compression to the http server with a configuration option.
22:43
So I guess I will do block compression and http request compression separately.
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22:45
Eric Arsenault
How is it sent to users currently?
22:45
Is this specifically for light nodes?
22:48
Zack
currently blocks are sent as JSON data.
Light nodes never download blocks, so it does not matter for them.
22:50
Eric Arsenault
Oh okay, this is for full nodes. Thanks
22:50
If there a way to improve the time to sync to network from light node?
22:54
Zack
we can add a more recent checkpoint to the light node
22:54
it only takes like 5 seconds to sync the light node for me currently
23:44
Eric Arsenault
I know Stepan was saying that it took his friend like 10 mins to sync on light node, but maybe this is something with our new UX. It also takes me ~5 seconds on your light node and our new UX.
00:04
Mr Flintstone
which light node? I know the exan web wallet takes some time since they write the headers into localstorage iirc
00:05
not 100% sure about that reasoning, but I remember the sync took like 10 mins
00:07
Eric Arsenault
Stepan was using the DAC UX light node. For me, it is very quick... but I was curious why it would take someone so long. I wonder if its related to connectivity?
00:19
Zack
It downloads 5000 headers at a time, so it is just 2 http requests to sync from the checkpoint to current height
00:21
Eric Arsenault
weird
00:21
Zack
downloading the headers shouldn't take much longer than refreshing the page.
00:22
Eric Arsenault
Yeah I'm not sure. I've never had any issues
00:22
Zack
what takes more time is verifying that each header has enough POW and that they are all linked
00:25
I am thinking I will keep the most recent 500 blocks how they are now, in individual files.
But all the older blocks, I will group them into compressed chunks of like 10 mb each.
That way we can smoothly handle short forks, and older blocks that wont change are stored as efficiently as possible.
00:35
I think the cowboy team isn't maintaining this version of compressed http any more, so I think we shouldn't use it.
00:36
And it didn't have an option for the level of compression.
02:07
Zack
It looks like when sharing blocks, we were pointlessly reading each block from the hard drive like 14 times each, just to send it once.
I wonder if this fix will let us sync much faster.
02:13
sanket
Anyone willing to be a part of this?
For 10 veo I am selling a long-veo contract. This will double your leverage against veo.
It gives me $75 of stablecoins for each of the 10 veo I invest, and all the extra money in the channel goes to you.
03:23
Mr Flintstone
when would it mature?
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09:00
Eric Arsenault
🤦♂️ spam is getting smarter
09:01
Deleted Account
fuck off!
09:01
Zack
thanks for the warning
12:12
Zack
I am working on some upgrades so blocks will take less space, and it will take less bandwidth to share blocks.
This will make syncing faster too.
12:13
Next I am thinking ill move the merkel trees to ram, because after our recent updates they ended up very small.
Once the merkel trees are in ram, that means while you are syncing you will only touch the hard drive once every few hundred blocks.
15:42
Zack
I tried putting the merkel trees in ram, but on my machine it isn't any faster.
I guess bandwidth is the bottleneck.
Once more nodes update to using the new database with compression, then I can optimize the syncing library for this new way that data is stored.
16:33
Zack
There is an option for ETS databases in erlang to let us write multiple things to the database at once.
This is ideal for making a fast merkel tree database.
17:21
lolo
catweed hi , my Veo pool is on public several days ago. Can my pool name be shown on
veoscan.io for the blocks we found?
17:53
sanket
15 days sound good?
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20:20
Ben
please ban joseph for posting scam links
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23:01
Eric Arsenault
Kelley Barren you suck
23:01
Shaun
This is a scam be careful.
23:01
Zack
thanks for the warning
23:01
Shaun
These telegram bots have been posting this link everywhere.
23:04
Eric Arsenault
Some TG groups have anti-spam bots where you need to click a button to confirm you are human. Maybe this could help?
23:23
Eric Arsenault
🤩🤗👏😎🙏
00:04
Phil Bonello
Thanks guys. The goal of this is to increase mindshare around the project by providing a digestible overview . Please share if you have a chance and let me know what you think.
00:19
Eric Arsenault
Awesome stuff!
00:20
Phil Bonello
We are good friends with Pomp and they are investors in Ikigai. 👍
00:23
Deleted Account
not done accumulating
00:24
A K
now's the best price to accumulate in ages )
00:24
Deleted Account
i know haha. been loving these 007-008 prices
00:25
glad to hear ikigai is supporting the project 💪
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04:04
Helge
hi guys. whats the usecase ok veo coin?
04:16
Eric Arsenault
Derivatives
04:17
See pinned msg, explore github
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10:43
Sebsebzen
Will read the report for breakfast
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11:56
Deleted Account
Anyway i can pay for hash to mine this for me?
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00:25
Mr Flintstone
looks like all the previous stablecoin transactions are back into the money for both sides
00:25
at least that I know of
00:26
Zack
That is great ! :)
The price had dipped below the margin for most of these contracts, but in amoveo there is no margin call. So they are still active and now they can settle in the money.
00:27
Mr Flintstone
May 24th right?
00:28
Zack
there are scalar oracles for 24th, 29th, and 22nd
02:06
Alfred
mine is 24th
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03:12
Eric Arsenault
Spam probably
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12:16
LoveLova
My way is fixed games in low leagues.
12:42
Zack
@Simon3456 @potat_o https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/issues/243You guys have had a few days to try out the hard update.
We really need to come to an agreement to do this upgrade.
My nightmare is that only half the network updates, and it causes a fork, and some miners don't get rewarded for mining on the wrong side, and it makes miners stop wanting to use one of the pools.
So let's come to consensus about this upgrade.
Do I need to set up a futarchy market to get this done?
my advisors are saying this new website we have could be Amoveo's first killer app, but until we get this hard update through, the UX experience is going to stay very bad.
This is an important update that we need for the success of amoveo, and it has a chance to cause significant price increases in the next couple months. So please, consider the update and get back to me soon with whether you will support these changes.
13:10
Sebsebzen
The ikigai paper really helped me understand some of the remaining details of Amoveo’s oracle mechanism
13:12
One question
Zack , if we create oracles like on x day the price of y will be z USD. Is there some sort of best practice to make it more precise. As in we could have a guideline that date refers Greenwhich time, USD refers to official rate of fed, etc.
13:13
Aries
I think we should all retweet Ikigai paper and tweet
13:13
There is 1408 of us in here
13:21
Sebsebzen
Second question I have: Does Veil (mentioned in paper) have incentive to work with VEO? Afaik they should be agnostic to underlying blockchain platform
13:22
Essentially they provide the UI layer
13:22
So have you been in talks with them?
Zack
13:22
Mr Flintstone
what do you think the answer is to that question
13:24
Sebsebzen
Haha idk, just brainstorming
13:25
Or is veil based on ether
13:26
Mr Flintstone
they are on top of augur
13:26
augur only I believe
13:27
Sebsebzen
It would be reasonable for a UI later provider to take a fee of the oracle cost
13:27
But provide the UX service
13:27
Mr Flintstone
agreed this is important. 1 pubkey per trade is way worse than you can use 1 pubkey for all your trades
14:38
Ben
please ban kristie for posting scam
14:39
did you had a conversation with zack about the hard update?
14:39
looks like he need your agreement ;)
15:14
Sebsebzen
I mean more like the veil concept. You can use their UI, but you pay a small percentage as fee
15:19
Sy
Zack we will look into your update but i doubt there are any objections
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16:22
Zack
I think having the wallet automatically pay fees to support developers of ux is a good idea to fund development. We should look into it.
Regular dominant assurance contracts are good too.
I haven't spoken wih anyone from veil.
16:28
Sy
Im usually fine with all feature updates and fixes 😁
17:02
K
Why choose PoW? Doesn’t economies of scale make it the most centralised consensus algorithm out now?
17:05
By the way why is the circulating supply different from the total supply on coinmarketcap?
17:05
Zack
there was a bug that caused some veo to get printed from nothing.
The person who got the free money sent it to a burn address.
Since the money in the burn address can never be used, some people don't include it in the circulating supply
17:13
sanket
Just to test zack's website. I have posted a stable coin contract. It currently is 2.8 VEO (1.4 VEO me, 1.4 VEO whoever accepts it)
http://139.59.144.76:8090/main.html
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22:03
sanket
This is good. Now I think it needs a "how-to accept the bet" steps
22:23
sanket
👍Looks good.
02:00
Eric Arsenault
Looking good!
02:36
Zack
sourcex is paying over 9000% annualized interest to sell these stablecoins
02:36
Possibly one of the best investments available on earth in this moment.
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02:44
Alfred
I'm still having a bit of trouble understanding the contract and outcomes tbh
02:48
"bet type: scalar; price = 0.00747800586510264 stablecoin/veo or 133.72549019607843 veo/stablecoin; you win if the result is true/long/stablecoin; they pay = 1.4; you pay = 1.4; expires: 65461"
02:48
Zack
I'm open to suggestions.
How would you prefer the info to be presented?
02:56
Alfred
So first of all, that equivalent of a short veo contract right?
02:57
I'm not even sure I understand it, so I can't think of a good way to phrase it 😅
02:58
Zack
Yes, sourcex wants to double his Veo exposure. He is selling a contract that stays constant value vs usd.
03:03
Mr Flintstone
it means you lock up 1.4 veo now, and receive 1.4*134 dollars in 3 weeks
03:04
as long as veo doesn’t drop too much in which case you get 2.8 veo
03:05
Alfred
in the case where USD in VEO price would reach 0.05 then
03:05
Zack
No, the margin is before then.
03:05
He is only locking up 1.4
So you can't get more than 2.8 out of the channel in total
03:06
Mr Flintstone
He’s asking because that’s the number in the oracle question
03:06
Zack
0.015 is the margin. Not 0.05
03:07
The Oracle can measure a wider range. The smart contract can focus on the portion of the range that matter for you
03:07
Alfred
I see no mentions of 0.015 in the contract so that would be something useful to add maybe as a start
03:08
Zack
It says that you each are locking 1.4 Veo in.
03:08
Eric Arsenault
I agree, this is a problem from a usability perspective. We should think about how this can be communicated so most people would understand quickly
03:08
Zack
So you can't get more than that much from the contract.
03:08
Eric Arsenault
Not sure what that looks like though
03:08
Alfred
Yea ok I just understood
03:10
Zack
Maybe " you pay 1.4 Veo for the lesser of (($133 * 1.4 worth of veo ) or ( 2.8 veo)) On may 29th."
03:11
Eric Arsenault
Yes, plain English would be great
03:11
Alfred
I don't think I can show a contract such as the current one to a friend of mine and that he would take it, just because the barrier to understanding is a bit high
03:12
That already is way better
03:14
" binary" could maybe also be renamed to smth like "double or quits"
03:14
not sure about "scalar"
03:16
Overall you want the least amount of technical jargon on the user end
03:17
english and laymen terms are the way to go
03:24
Eric Arsenault
I agree about lingo
03:25
Needs to be dummy proof
03:30
Alfred
Yes, tools like bitmex are hard to use and requires a bit of a learning curve, which is fine because they are intended for use by "professionals"
It's also (and that just my opinion) in their interest that their tool are hard to use because people then make more mistakes which is profitable to bitmex
03:31
Amoveo has to be very friendly and accessible imho
04:52
sanket
This is really true.
I would strongly suggest everyone to atleast try it once. Whenever I try, I find so many confusing thing and then suggest Zack to improve.
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07:39
Deleted Account
Yeah
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12:02
Eric Arsenault
request to please include link back to home from the derivative explorer :)
12:02
Zack
a link to the github page?
12:03
Zack
it is safer to run the light node on your own computer
12:04
Eric Arsenault
It is true, but I'm not sure we can expect most people to place bets on their own computer
12:04
They will want to go to a "site" to do these things, no?
12:05
Zack
it seems centralized if I link to the light node hosted on my server
12:05
Eric Arsenault
Yeah, this is true
12:05
then they can still link to the other page in one more hop, and they get a warning about security
12:06
Eric Arsenault
sure
12:08
If I create a close offer, do I need to stay offline while my partner is closing? Or can I send him close offer and he can do it whenever?
12:11
Zack
you are never required to stay offline at anytime.
12:11
neither are you required to be online.
12:11
you can send the close offer, and they can close whenever.
12:11
Eric Arsenault
Sorry typo
12:11
Zack
well, you can put time limits in the close offer
12:12
Eric Arsenault
Thanks, you answered
12:12
Zack
so you can set it up so they only ave 24 hours to accept, or it becomes invalid
12:12
which is useful to avoid free option problem when closing channels in some cases.
12:14
this is only true after the next hard update.
For now you can't put any time limit on this tx.
12:16
Eric Arsenault
Would be useful to be able to cancel an offer manually too
12:17
Zack
it is currently possible to cancel an offer manually by doing a spend tx to increase your account nonce
12:17
but after the next hard update this trick wont be possible, because we aren't using the nonce in that tx any more.
12:18
what you could do is make the bet with yourself. Take both sides of the channel.
12:18
then immediately close the channel, because you control both sides.
12:18
Eric Arsenault
Right
12:18
Zack
so you can close on whatever state you want at whatever time you want
12:18
Eric Arsenault
Would you need the other half of funds to do this though?
12:19
Zack
but only for a couple blocks. not very long
12:19
Eric Arsenault
right, then CTC to close
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12:58
Eric Arsenault
I have tried twice to accept this bet but no funds are getting locked up
12:59
Zack
I canceled the game of thrones bet, but it isn't disappearing
13:00
I think the odds shifted a lot after that episode. it looks like I might be right
13:00
Eric Arsenault
LOL 😂
13:00
it would be an epic ending
13:17
Eric Arsenault
Maybe someone accepted it and it is not disappearing?
15:44
sanket
How do you do that?
15:44
Deleted Account
make new tx from the account i think?
16:50
sanket
That only works if you do immediately.
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21:03
O K
My only request has been for things to be tested on a public testnet. That's an industry standard practice.
You message me often enough about needing to update again after a hard update has taken place because of a bug that it's clear your local testing is not sufficient.
I don't see how anyone could be opposed to this.
21:26
Zack
You can try it out in test mode.
It takes time and effort to maintain a testnet, I don't see how running a testnet will help us find any more bugs vs using test mode
21:31
There is a lot of stuff we need to get done.
Does potato write software?
I know Sy does.
21:35
O K
That's a fallacy. I'm the one that deploys your broken software, and then deploys the fix two days later :)
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21:43
Zack
It's going to take me less effort to make a futarchy market vs running a testnet.
If the futarchy market says for us to update, then we won't need your support for the update.
It will cost me $100 to do the futarchy market, but that is a lot cheaper for me vs maintaining a testnet.
21:43
Maintaining a testnet is the ideal task for a developer other than me.
21:43
So if I die, someone else will know how to do these things right away.
21:43
If I maintain a testnet, then no one else will
21:44
O K
I'm not partial to the means, the end i want is "not having to redeploy software updates multiple times because bugs were found right after deployment". If a futarchy market gets us there, great.
21:45
Especially after a hard update, which affects exchanges etc.
21:52
Zack
Preventing bugs is good, but it is mathematically impossible to prevent them all.
There will be bugs both before and after the update, no matter what we do.
All of software development has costs and benefits. It at least costs time.
If I spend my time maintaining a testnet, then that means I am not spending that time writing tests.
Reducing how much time I have available means either we delay the project, or I make more compromises in the level of testing before code gets pushed to main net.
Putting this extra work on my plate right now could easily increase the number of bugs, and I don't see how it could reduce the number of bugs.
Bitcoin and ethereum have dozens of developers, so their development looks different from ours.
21:54
You can easily do all your tests in amoveo test mode.
You don't need a testnet to test anything.
22:00
Oh, it's only $4 for the futarchy market, not $100.
22:00
I guess I should do that.
This update is important
22:09
sanket
I agree with this point. If Amoveo has to grow big, there would need to be certain process for hard updates.
22:27
Eric Arsenault
This is why Amoveo needs a community of contributors. Zack’s plate is full, and I understand his point. I also understand
@potat_o ‘S perspective, of course Amoveo can’t be pushing buggy code (this is particularly important once we start getting traction of any kind).
For now, maybe a compromise is to have someone run tests on test mode to make sure all functionality is working. Has anyone (other than Zack) done this yet? I could make some time this week if this would help.
22:40
O K
On the contrary, this is why amoveo's community of contributors has dwindled Eric.
22:43
Eric Arsenault
I’m trying to propose next steps to make sure your concerns are being heard
22:43
Not argue about the state of the community
22:47
Zack
So I think I can do this futarchy market with just 2 oracles:
1) "on June 1 the price of veo is below $100 and hard update 17 has not been activated on mainnet"
2) "on June 1 the price of veo is > $100 and hard update 17 has been activated on mainnet"
Then I make bets at 1/4th odds that both oracles will return True. So I lock up 1 veo, and they lock up 3 veo.
as long as no one accepts my bet offers, that means that the correlation between merging this hard update, and keeping the price above $100 is positive.
23:45
Zack
I made a 20:1 bet about how game of thrones would turn out, and then I made a 1:10 bet in the opposite direction.
--So now I am guaranteed to win 10 free veo, and I have no risk for the outcome of game of thrones.-- (edit: I was wrong about this)
23:45
Buy low, sell high.
23:51
Mr Flintstone
aren’t you guaranteed to either win 10 or 1?
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23:52
Zack
I have 2 bets.
Either I win 20 in one, and lose 10 in the other.
or I lose 1 in one, and win 1 in the other.
So I either have a net gain of 10, or 0
00:03
Mr Flintstone
looks like all the trades on the website got taken
00:03
Zack
they were taken a while ago. I just pushed an update to fix removing of bets that have already been taken.
00:05
im thinking of adding a page to that website to browse through all the active oracles.
a better version of the oracle exporer Sy serves
00:16
Stepan Panov
Say I enter a p2p contract with someone and open a channel, which is of course private. If I want any 3rd party to look up how much money is in that channel, they will be able to do so if I share the channel ID with them, right?
00:17
Zack
You can use the channel I'd to see how much money is in the channel and which addresses control that channel
00:19
Mr Flintstone
cool if it collapses the scalar oracles from 10 into one
00:19
Zack
Yes, that is the plan
00:33
Sy
Feel free to do so, i only made mine because there was no web list at all
00:34
And mine is far from perfect 😂
01:50
Zack
We are thankful you did, it has been a great tool.
You go above and beyond what anyone expects out of a mining pool operator.
02:17
Stepan Panov
Thank you!
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10:21
Eric Arsenault
Interesting discussions on Prediction Markets. Mostly vanilla but some interesting nugs of information in there!
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11:37
Zack
I am planning out the futarchy oracles
11:38
Here are the 4 oracles, and the price limits I am thinking of setting.
Can you guys see any ways for me to improve my strategy?
P = "on 1st of June 2019 at noon GMT the price of veo is greater than $80 on
qtrade.io"; U = "hard update 17 w\
as merged into mainnet by noon GMT on May 24th"; (P and U).
>0.6
P = "on 1st of June 2019 at noon GMT the price of veo is greater than $80 on
qtrade.io"; U = "hard update 17 w\
as merged into mainnet by noon GMT on May 24th"; ((not P) and U).
<0.4
P = "on 1st of June 2019 at noon GMT the price of veo is greater than $80 on
qtrade.io"; U = "hard update 17 w\
as merged into mainnet by noon GMT on May 24th"; (P and (not U)).
<0.1
P = "on 1st of June 2019 at noon GMT the price of veo is greater than $80 on
qtrade.io"; U = "hard update 17 w\
as merged into mainnet by noon GMT on May 24th"; ((not P) and (not U)).
>0.1
11:39
I am concerned about that one market where I am trying to show <0.1 odds. I think that means I need to lock up 10 veo for the other party's 1.
11:39
Eric Arsenault
Although I think it will pass, I still think we should consider Potato's concerns
11:39
Has anyone else done testing? If not, we should at least have someone do that, no?
11:40
Zack
I want to make it more capital efficient. I think maybe $80 is not the optimal under/over value.
11:42
Eric Arsenault
So you can set values you want all four P's to be?
11:42
Mr Flintstone
let’s name them P1 through P4 for clarity
11:42
Eric Arsenault
Why not give more flexibility on P's, and just look at P1*P4 vs P2*P3
11:44
you can only ask the oracle about things that eventually happen.
11:45
that weird formula isn't the probability of any measurable event.
11:45
Eric Arsenault
Sure - you know this better than I do
11:46
Mr Flintstone
here is correlation formula
11:46
using the four prices
11:46
Zack
it looks like that document doesn't define P1 P2 P3 or P4.
11:47
Eric Arsenault
I know, you need to label the four prices above
11:47
Mr Flintstone
seems like it is respective to the order
11:47
that was described in the above paragraph
11:48
Zack
I think correlation of the 2 things is:
(prob(P and Q) * prob(!P and !Q)) - (prob(P and !Q) * prob(!P and Q))
That way it is symmetric
11:48
((00 * 11) - (01 * 10))
11:49
Mr Flintstone
k so it isn’t respective to the order then lol
11:49
Zack
so for futarchy, we need 2 greater-thans, and 2 less-thans
11:50
Mr Flintstone
yeah, we want to bound it as high as possible
11:50
Eric Arsenault
are you doing binary oracles?
11:51
Zack
im planning to make these 4 binary oracles soon yes
11:51
Eric Arsenault
P > 0.6 for example
11:51
I thought it would be 4 scalar which just report P, then you look at (prob(P and Q) * prob(!P and !Q)) - (prob(P and !Q) * prob(!P and Q)) to see result
11:52
Mr Flintstone
there isn’t a way to report what the probability of something was to a scalar oracle
11:52
so we need to estimate the probability using the price of a binary option
11:53
Zack
scalar oracles are 10x more expensive, so if we are in a situation where both kinds do the job just as well, we prefer to use the binary ones
11:53
Eric Arsenault
OK, so it doesn't really matter if binary oracles report T/F, what matters is price
11:53
Zack
right. the price tells us the odds
11:54
my goal here is to make some channel offers that no one will match
11:54
Eric Arsenault
so do bounds matter?
11:54
Zack
it is tough, because I think a lot of people want to test out the new website
11:54
so whatever I post they will match
11:54
Mr Flintstone
seems profitable
11:55
Zack
on average, but there is risk
11:55
if we get hard update 17 merged, but the price goes down for some other reason, then I can lose money for having provided good information to the market
11:56
so we want to carefully choose these 4 futarchy questions, and I think make a bunch of other more interesting markets at the same time so they aren't tempted to try these out for experiments.
11:56
Eric Arsenault
lol 😂
11:57
drown them in noise
11:57
Zack
too bad I can't make multiple channel offers from the same address
11:57
it would sure be nice for this
11:57
Eric Arsenault
Yeah I know lol kind of ironic
11:58
Zack
every time someone matches 1 of the 4 contracts, I have to re-generate all 4.
11:59
P = "on 1st of June 2019 at noon GMT the price of veo is greater than $80 on
qtrade.io"; U = "hard update 17 w\
as merged into mainnet by noon GMT on May 24th"; (P and (not U)).
<0.1
This market seems risky,
Because they only need 1 veo to make me lock up 10.
12:01
Mr Flintstone
maybe use four different accounts for this then, despite it being a pain
12:02
Zack
that might be more work, because I would have to rebalance veo between the accounts, and that means waiting for confirmations on-chain
12:03
Eric Arsenault
I agree, this makes most sense
12:04
Mr Flintstone
yeah, I guess if you think people are going to be matching these bets
12:04
Zack
if they aren't matching the bets, then making 4 accounts is definitely more work
12:04
Eric Arsenault
Are you willing to accept any amount of bets for these questions?
12:05
Mr Flintstone
oh right
12:05
Eric Arsenault
(by the way, this is a great exercise :D)
12:05
Zack
if the bets get matched, then futarchy can't get an accurate measurement. an indeterminate result.
12:06
Mr Flintstone
what correlation are you going for to prove we should do this zack
12:06
cuz if we relax that, the capital requirement is better
12:06
Zack
we just need to show it is >0
12:07
so the example before was 0.1*0.6 - 0.1*0.4 = 0.02
which is >0
12:07
Mr Flintstone
so show two are > 50% and two are < 50% and it’s positive correlation right
12:07
Zack
yeah, that would be very capital efficient, but it is hard to imagine how to ask the oracle question to get those odds
12:08
Mr Flintstone
just use the prices to prove those odds I thohhht
12:08
make bets at 0.45 and 0.55
12:08
Eric Arsenault
yeah, that's what I assumed
12:08
Zack
What is the text of the oracle questions that you are suggesting?
12:08
over/under at $80? or some other price?
12:08
Mr Flintstone
Permutations of this
12:08
Zack
$80 seems like the only free variable here
12:09
Mr Flintstone
maybe make the veo price higher
12:09
oh, but the price you choose determines the capital requirement to a certain extent
12:10
Zack
I think that the odds of whether the update gets merged are very skewed towards the update getting merged.
12:10
Mr Flintstone
this is tricky
12:10
Zack
which makes it seem impossible to get the odds spread out nicely
12:12
it is sort of self-referential.
if it is positive, then it will get merged, but if it is negative, it will not get merged.
but whether it gets merged is part of the calculation to know if it is positive.
12:14
Mr Flintstone
seems like there isn’t really a way to get around it with four oracles
12:15
Zack
get around what?
12:15
Mr Flintstone
having really skewed capital requirements for traders in one of the markets
12:16
Zack
well, maybe.
I think the odds of success might just be fairly low.
So we have to try a few times to get it accepted.
12:17
if the capital requirement of one choice is too severe, then that reduces the odds of success, which makes the capital requirement less severe.
12:17
how much capital is available to participate in the market is a hidden value.
12:18
so it could take a few rounds before the decision is successfully made, even if it is a good decision.
12:19
What I want is to use the recursive nature of this situation to make a formula to determine the optimal 4 prices I should set for the oracles.
12:19
There should be some simple rule to know if the 4 prices make sense together
12:20
and then maybe we can find a way to set the $80 constant to the right price so all 4 are as near to 0.25 as possible
12:24
If we find out that there is a troll wanting to block futarchy decisions, then that will heavily move the odds, and the price to make it more expensive for that troll.
12:30
oh no.
what is the attacker endlessly makes any bets that say the update will not be included?
Then the futarchy market will always be indeterminate, so it will always fail to make the decision to include the update, so the attacker's bets are always winning bets.
12:34
Maybe we should have 2 scalar oracles:
"if update 17 is not merged, return bad. else, return the price of USD in VEO."
"if update 17 is merged, return bad. else, return the price of USD in VEO."
Because if you make a bet in an oracle, and the result is bad, then each participant gets their money back that they had put in the bet.
using these 2 scalar oracles, we can show that the price of veo if we do the update is higher than if we don't do the update.
12:39
Eric Arsenault
yeah that makes sense. What would timing look like?
12:42
Zack
"If hard update 17 is merged before June 1st 2019 at noon GMT, resolve to bad. else: What is the price of USD in Veo from 0 to 0.03 on
qtrade.io on the 1st of June 2019 at noon GMT."
"If hard update 17 is not merged before June 1st 2019 at noon GMT, resolve to bad. else: What is the price of USD in Veo from 0 to 0.03 on
qtrade.io on the 1st of June 2019 at noon GMT."
12:44
Eric Arsenault
Maybe you can include some reward to incentivize betting
12:45
Zack
hopefully no one will bet
12:46
If we do this correctly, and the hard update is actually a good thing, then it should be un-profitable to accept any of the bets I post.
12:47
Eric Arsenault
yeah... that's the price to pay for futarchy 😂
12:50
Zack
what? what price?
12:50
no one is paying any price
12:52
Eric Arsenault
I feel like both of these questions will just follow the price of VEO as dates approach June 1st.
12:55
Zack
We just need to show that the price of one is lower than the other for a couple days straight
12:55
Eric Arsenault
Right... Maybe you can only accept bets until like May 20th?
13:33
Alfred
That might have to be based on orderbook data?
14:20
Now there is a page that displays all the active oracles in an organized way
14:57
Ben
perfect thanks.
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21:29
Zack
I lost my channel_offer file for one of my channels.
So I dug through the blocks and found the tx on-chain, and I was able to re-build the channel offer from on-chain data.
The person who accepts the channel offer needs to store channel state, but they generate the channel state from the channel_offer.
The channel_offer can be re-generated without having to save anything, and the channel state can be generated from that.
So I think there must be a way so that we don't have to save any channel state, and it can all be re-generated as long as you have your private key.
21:36
Mr Flintstone
isn’t the on chain stuff in a hash though?
21:37
Zack
yeah, maybe I was only able to re-write the channel offer because I remembered some details
21:42
Mr Flintstone
once we start salting these it’ll make it more difficult
21:43
but maybe we can salt using the private key?
21:44
Zack
maybe the server for browsing available trades should keep copies of old channel_offers around as a backup
21:45
even if you have the salt, automatically checking every possible oracle with every possible price and every possible quantity of veo you could have bet will take a while.
21:46
scalar oracles have even more free variables to deal with
21:50
Mr Flintstone
right
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01:10
Eric Arsenault
I have a few questions/comments about this…when you get a minute
Zack or whoever else wants to chime in
1) For these questions, would you only take bets in one direction? (for example, if your offer is >0.1, then you are going LONG).
2) I’m confused about the odds, could you confirm if I am getting it? Say for example the (P and (not U)) example with odds of <0.1. In this bet, you would go short and lock up 10VEO, they go long and lock up 1 VEO? For (P and U) > 0.6, you would go LONG and lock up 1 VEO, and they would go short and lock up 1.5 VEO?
3) You mentioned that your goal is to make channel offers that nobody will close. Can you clarify this? If nobody closes them, then there are no bets and you can’t determine correlation.
4) The process of Zack being the only one creating channel offers for this market is also a little weird to me. For one, it could require the person creating the futarchy bet to hold a lot of VEO, which should not be a requirement to use governance. Maybe another way to do this is to have a period of time where everyone publishes their channel offers, then people can match? This could happen now, but it just feels very much like “zack is placing these bets and we can accept”. I think it’s just a re-framing to make it more participatory, and less dependent on one person accepting all bets…?
01:17
Zack
We aren't using the 4-bet model anymore. Now we are using conditional stablecoins for futarchy.
Anyone can make futarchy markets, it doesn't have to be me.
