01:19
Zack
if I make a channel offer, and no one accepts, that tells us something about the current market price.
It means that my offer is better for me than the current market price.
It gives us a bound on what the current market price could be.
If someone matches my trade, there is no way for me to prove the state of the channel once it is matched, so now no information is being revealed about the current market price.
01:28
Eric Arsenault
I mean, we can use the 4 bet model, right? You are just not using it for this bet
01:29
Zack
It looks like it does not work
01:29
we could do 2 conditional binary bets
01:29
Eric Arsenault
interesting, I thought it was for this specific situation only it was tricky
01:30
Zack
"if hard update 17 gets merged, return bad question. else: the price of VEO > $100 on June 1st 2019, at noon GMT on qtrade"
01:32
Robin Hanson originally suggested conditional bets like this.
Then in Paul Sztorc's documentation it talks about using the other kind of bets with 4 outcomes.
I guess Robin Hanson's version is better.
It is lucky we didn't build this assumption into Amoveo, and switching from one to the other is as easy as wording the oracle question a little differently.
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03:41
Sy
if you ask it like that, probably not
03:41
join the discord and check
#mining
04:24
J P
Does anyone know how Ikigai got their position in VEO tokens? Mining? Open market? Private trades with large token holders?
04:32
[Riki]
by selling drugs
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08:00
Zack
I think they used qtrade.
08:26
Deleted Account
Hi gents, It's me again
08:29
Let us suppose that some PM participants made bets that Market Cap of some company will be over 10B at some day, while others bet that it will be less
08:30
However, at that day it oscillates near 10B, so it is imposible to determine a winner
08:30
I suppose that reporters will say BAD_QUESTION
08:32
And all money will return to gamblers
08:32
Zack
If it is a close-call, then it doesn't really matter how the oracle settles. since only a small fraction of oracles will be close-calls
08:32
returning bad-question might indeed be how it works out
08:34
Deleted Account
it reporters return BAD_QUESTION, then PM participants simply get money back?
08:34
Deleted Account
thanks
09:30
Deleted Account
Hi, Zack. Sorry, but one more question. Please, describe me the most important difference between Amoveo, Augur and AE oracles.
I already know that Augur use reputation tokens to support "honest" reporters. Afaik. however, there is no betting competition between reportes. Also Augur can't be forked because it uses ETH network
09:31
However, are there any other important features, and what about AE oracles?
09:31
Deleted Account
thanks
09:32
Deleted Account
This is a progress report for the competition with the biggest prize of any competition on earth
09:36
Oracle ranks:
Amoveo 10
Gnosis 8
Others 0
09:36
10 there is an active community of people using this tool
09:36
0 there is no plan on how to achieve goal
09:37
well, I continue reading)
09:37
Zack
If others want to read, they can follow the link. You don't have to put it all here.
09:49
Deleted Account
What do you call "trusted feeds"?
09:49
>Aeternity and Bodhi use trusted feeds with no collateral
09:50
Zack
a trusted feed is when you trust some central third party to provide the data. You are trusting them not to lie and steal your money.
09:51
Deleted Account
but this sounds like centralized oracle
09:51
yes, trusted feeds are one kind of centralized oracles.
09:53
Deleted Account
>Aeternity (AE) is a blockchain platform that focuses on high bandwidth transacting, purely-functional smart contracts, and decentralized oracles
09:53
why do they call them decentralized?
09:53
Zack
you can combine trusted feeds into a trusted decentralized oracle.
09:54
There is a lot of confusion in cryptocurrency community between "trustless" and "decentralized"
09:55
decentralization is a useful tool that can help us achieve trustlessness, but decentralization alone is not helpful.
09:56
A decentralized and trustful protocol like voting will cost more and have theft occur more frequently than a centralized market.
09:57
Deleted Account
can you describe briefly how AE trusted feeds are constructed? It is something like a group of "trusted people" or agency?
09:57
Zack
it is my understanding that when you want to use an oracle in AE, you use the pubkey of the person or people who you are trusting to provide the data.
09:57
so they can provide the data to resolve the contract.
09:58
Deleted Account
ah, so gambler choses reporter
09:59
Zack
It is a level 4.1 security protocol, so it is going to be more expensive and break more frequently vs a 3.2 protocol like Augur or Bitcoin Hivemind.
10:00
and they are more expensive and break more frequently than a 2.2 oracle like Amoveo.
Satoshi Nakamoto invited Satoshi Nakamoto
10:00
Zack
Welcome Satoshi.
10:06
Deleted Account
If I understood you correctly, any participants of AE who bet on some event, chose a particular third person(s) before settling a contract, and after closing a contract this person will determine the winner between them.
10:06
Zack
that is my understanding of oracles in AE
10:06
Deleted Account
thanks
10:10
Of course, that trusted person requires some money for this?
10:11
they must be motivated to make this work
10:11
Zack
That is the natural relationship between trust and cost.
The more you are trusting someone, the more you have to pay them to be honorable.
10:11
Deleted Account
yes
10:12
Zack
By using mechanisms that involve less trust, you also reduce the cost.
10:12
Deleted Account
agree
10:38
Deleted Account
Sorry, again a question. Now about Augur
Augur reporters receive REP for correct answers. Those, who have many REPs are considered as honest guys. But someone can simply buy REP on exchange, and, therefore, buy reputation without having real story of honest answers. How does Augur combat this possible problem?
10:38
Or maybe my understanding is incorrect
10:39
Zack
the ability to sell rep is an important feature that makes Augur more secure.
10:40
the issue that makes Augur insecure is that people holding Rep are voting on the outcome. It is cheap to bribe them to manipulate the outcome that they vote for.
10:42
Deleted Account
What happens when REP holder becomes a liar and network participants know this (eg his lie is too obvious)?
10:43
Zack
at best, they can lose all their rep.
In practice, Augur and Bitcoin Hivemind are only able to confiscate a fraction of the Rep/votecoin from the liar.
So as long as the bribe is bigger than how much Rep can be lost, it is in the voter's interest to take the bribe and participate in the attack.
10:45
Deleted Account
Ok thank you very much for these useful answers. My understanding of Amoveo competitors became significantly higher
10:57
In fact, this is similar to Amoveo: honest reporter gives additional REPs, while dishonest loses. However, in Augur it is not a zero sum game: even if nobody lies, honest guys receive REP?
11:03
Zack
I think the price is displaying wrong in the new website if you try to buy stablecoins.
11:11
Deleted Account
Assume a gambler wants to bribe reporters and have enough money to compensate their possible lose of REPs. But how will he do this in practice? Afaik, particular reporters are unknown (at least before closing a contract)?
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11:44
Zack
the attacker releases alternative software for reporters. The software is set up so that the reporters make 5% more money than the would otherwise. once more than 50% of the reporters have update to using the attacker's software, then the attack starts.
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20:53
Sy
the new syncing mechanisms are already live right?
20:53
block compression and stuff
21:12
Zack
It is a configuration value.
By default it is using the old version of the blocks database. We will be ready to update soon. I will make it an optional configuration file upgrade, so if you don't have time to resync blocks, you can do that later.
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22:16
Zack
The futarchy market is live.
As long as no one matches the bets in the next 10 hours or so, we will be able to do hard update 17
23:24
Eric Arsenault
If nobody matches be bets, why would we move forward with the hard update? Don't you need at least one person placing a bet on one side?
23:25
Mr Flintstone
an unmatched bet sets a bound on the possible prices
23:47
Eric Arsenault
Say someone accepts the "If hard update 17 is not merged before May 31st 2019 at noon GMT, resolve to bad. else: What is the price of \ USD in Veo from 0 to 0.03 on
qtrade.io on the May 31st 2019 at noon GMT bit number 0" bet - would the next step be to change your stablecoin price to find the "right" bound?
23:52
Mr Flintstone
yeah, you would need a new trade in order to prove the bound of a price
23:53
you can’t use matched orders to say what the price of something is
23:56
Eric Arsenault
OK - and is futarchy decision made by comparing the price of the bound vs. actual veo price?
00:01
Zack
futarchy decision is made by showing that one side of the decision results in a lower value of veo.
We want to make the choice that results in a higher value of VEO.
03:03
Jon Snow
Veil just hard forked Augur
03:09
Jon Snow
Joey Krug said on his Twitter
03:09
I would assume veil is the Augur project with most traction?
03:10
Mr Flintstone
I don’t think they have very much traction at all tbh
03:10
unless something changed recently, they never got much volume on their stuff
03:10
Eric Arsenault
*most
03:10
Are any products on Augur seeing traction?
03:11
Mr Flintstone
people have like a million dollars of risk in augur iirc
03:11
I think veil was doing thousands of dollars
03:11
kind of shows the fact that they don’t really get it and never did
03:12
Eric Arsenault
Yeah. Weird strategy to fork
03:16
They take out the oracle part
03:17
Zack
it says it can reference an augur market.
So this veil is now a network of parasite markets, all sucking value from augur.
03:17
it is amazing how fast this happened.
03:17
Mr Flintstone
oh wow, you can choose to use an augur market too instead of just a pubkey
03:18
I wonder how long it’ll take to break augur. the issue I see is that traders won’t want to participate as parasites. You don’t know the other side of the trade, so if you’re participating in parasitic liquidity you are at risk
03:19
Zack
the idea of parasite contracts was theoretical, no one had made a practical implementation.
Not so long ago Veil was the biggest positive news Augur had in a long time.
Now Veil has released an advanced cryptoeconomic exploit that could likely prevent Augur from continuing to function as an oracle.
03:20
if you aren't willing to participate as a parasite, then you wouldn't be willing to participate at all. the same risks are there for you either way.
03:20
Mr Flintstone
that is true
03:22
Zack
I guess this is actually very good news for Amoveo.
If Sztorc's votecoin based design is failing, then they will have to shift their focus to some alternative design, and Amoveo seems exactly where they will turn.
03:26
Mr Flintstone
amoveo is still the only oracle implementation resistant to parasites I think? aside from the komodo oracle
03:27
Zack
right.
I am pretty sure the komodo oracle does not work
03:28
so far there has been this big incentive to create a subcurrency so that you have something to ICO. So bitcoin hivemind has votecoin and augur has rep.
03:39
we made it the full 100 blocks, and no one matched my futarchy bets!
03:42
That means it should be safe to merge hard update 17 now.
Ill push this update to github soon.
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06:17
Phil Bonello
Veil should just point to Amoveo oracles now as an option
06:17
They are leaving that part open ended I guess
06:42
sanket
Has anyone spoken with them?
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07:53
Deleted Account
it looks like none of these exchanges have nay real veo volume
08:31
Jon Snow
Have you checked Qtrade?
09:13
Zack
I am making a checklist of who I need to contact for hard updates. Is this everyone?
mining pools:
veoscan.pw Sy on telegram
amoveopool potato on telegram
lolopool loloxiao on discord
exchanges:
hitbtc email
qtrade.io on discord
A1 exchange on discord
09:14
@Simon3456 @potat_o We got confirmation from a futarchy market that hard update 17 is good, so I set it up to activate around May 23rd.
You can update any time between now and then.
09:51
Deleted Account
@zack what's the update for?
11:04
Deleted Account
@zack
11:04
do you have plans for veo to switch to proof of stake?
11:05
I don't see how veo can have any value if it will just have inflation forever
11:06
Eric Arsenault
There are more things that affect value than inflation
11:06
Deleted Account
without a deflationary mechanism it cannot have any value at all long term
11:06
just look at grin project
11:07
Deleted Account
yes there are other things that affect value, but it can only have value if it has a set supply
11:07
the problem for veo isn't proof of work, but that it has the same amount of coins emitted every single year
11:08
sorry to reword, is there any plan to set up a somewhat sane inflation rate or monetary supply system, whether or not it is pow or pos
11:11
Zack
futarchy will decide how fast coins should be produced, just like all the other governance variables.
13:05
Zack
It is 185 mb to store all the blocks after we do this next block update.
My laptop with slow internet went from ~20 blocks per second to ~70 blocks per second.
if I have the update and the server does not, it is ~30 blocks per second.
if the server has the update, and I do not, it is ~50 blocks per second.
14:10
Deleted Account
This is incorrect. Look at Ethereum. Most coins have understood that moving to a tx only miner reward is unlikely to work in the long term. In PoS inflation is a tax for not staking, it dilutes holdings only to the ones who are not participating in the network, the higher the inflation, the higher the participation on the network (to a reasonable levle of inflation). Participation then provides value to the network and total market cap.
14:13
Sy
lets test this :)
14:14
absorb block 200
don't have a parent for this header
something to worry about?
14:14
Zack
I'm not sure what that message is about, it doesn't seem to matter.
14:14
I'm going to do more testing before making this way of storing blocks the default
14:15
Sy
absorb block 2600
compressed loc: [-6,0,2320260] many blocks: [-6,2685]
14:15
Zack
You only get full benefit if both sender and receiver are using the new database
14:15
Sy
besides those new messages its syncing fine :D
14:16
'Make prod-clean' is a lot faster too, since blocks are in one file instead of in hundreds
14:19
Now that blocks are fast, the bottleneck has heavily become the Merkel trees.
I think by moving them to ram, we can get another 10x speedup.
14:20
We would only touch the hard drive every 800 blocks or so.
14:21
At that point, syncing will probably be as fast as downloading the 200 megabytes of compressed blocks.
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16:40
Sebsebzen
I don’t understand how Amoveo is protected from parasitic projects like Veil forking Augur
16:41
Can someone explain again pls
16:42
Joey Krug also mentioned
https://www.guesser.io in his tweet, another front end project for prediction markets
18:02
A K
What would it take to create a trustless BitMEX on Veo?
21:01
Zack
It is not.
Augur thought this wouldn't happen for a long time, if at all.
21:01
We already have that, right?
What part of bitmex do you mean?
21:10
sanket
I think he means degen leverage like bitme
21:13
Zack
Amoveo scalar contracts have leverage.
What is "degen leverage"?
21:14
Spike Spiegel
so for example one would like to buy 100x leverage on btc/usd or veo/usd
21:20
Zack
Yes, Amoveo supports this.
Though 100x is kind of extreme. Your margins would be pretty narrow.
At that point, it is kind of like having a binary derivative at a price of your choosing inside the range of prices that the scalar oracle supports
21:34
A K
I mean: website with UI, where ppl would deposit (VEO?) and place bets in limit order books, with leverage and margin calls and funding rates, but in a trustless manner (vs Bitmex), and with fast cheap order updates (vs eg Etherdelta and other DDEXes on ETH)
21:37
We made these limit order markets first, then recently we shifted to focusing on the P2P derivatives tool.
The limit order markets are nice, but you need a lot of activity first before they are useful.
The P2P derivatives tool is useful even if there are very few users.
21:40
A K
e.g. theres a market created for VEO/USD
21:41
Zack
I think no one is running any order book type markets on Amoveo currently.
These guys specialize in it:
https://amoveobook.com/
21:50
Deleted Account
hadn't realized the site was revamped, looks awesome
22:04
Tromp
Yeah looks nice thanks to whoever did that 👍🏻
22:04
Amoveo bitmex style trustless exchange would be amazing
22:05
I would use it to margin trade s*tcoins
22:06
Zack
the p2p derivatives tool is probably a more effective way to get started with margin trading altcoins.
Once you demonstrate demand, then it will be worth it to make some markets with limit orders.
22:08
A K
ok, if amovebook or someone else creates a market for USDVEO, settled in VEO e.g. every month
22:08
would it be possible to recreate the Bitmex experience ?
22:08
Eli W
Can it margin trade btc by design
Zack ?
22:10
Zack
Amoveo derivatives allow for leverage.
Blockchains do not allow you to enforce debt or loans.
So we sort of allow margin trading. It depends how you define "margin trading".
22:11
the otc_derivatives tool allows you to set the leverage when you make a channel offer.
22:12
A K
that's not enough for Bitmex. Bitmex = 1 market for all USD/VEO bids and offers, margin determined individually by each participant (or, which is the same, margin = 1to100 for everyone, but anyone can overcollateralize to avoid frequent margin calls)
22:12
Also, BitMEX has a well thought out liquidation rules and a stability fund
22:15
Zack
Amoveo doesn't have margin calls that could cause compulsory liquidations.
In Amoveo every contract is valid until its expiration, even if the price exceeds the margins.
In Amoveo P2P derivatives, everyone can determine their own margins and leverage.
22:20
A K
what would be more viable to recreate Bitmex then? markets, order books on top of P2P contracts (UI abstraction), or something new would need to be developed?
22:22
Zack
Because of the low numbers of users, my current recommendation for using Amoveo is to use the P2P derivatives tool and post your trades to here:
http://139.59.144.76:8090/main.htmlOnce there are more users, we can start using the limit order markets.
22:23
A K
I'm thinking couple steps ahead )
22:26
Does anyone have questions/suggestions about this document before I publish it more publicly?
22:30
Stepan Panov
I would love to read more on that exchange between you and Mr Flinstone.
22:30
Stepan Panov
Mr Flintstone 16.05.2019 03:26:35
amoveo is still the only oracle implementation resistant to parasites I think? aside from the komodo oracle
22:30
Stepan Panov
Zack 16.05.2019 03:27:10
right.
I am pretty sure the komodo oracle does not work
22:31
Stepan Panov
If Amoveo oracle is resistant to parasites, that should be in the article.
22:31
Also 'Veil in the death of Augur' should be the title, I think ;)
22:33
Zack
Amoveo's oracle doesn't collect any trading fees.
So this attack doesn't matter for us.
A parasite contract attack is identical to normal amoveo trading.
22:34
Stepan Panov
That's great!
22:34
Very interesting read Zack
22:49
Zack
It is still possible that Augur will work with the ethereum miners, and they will disable the parasite contracts.
22:50
This has been talked about as a solution, at least for on-chain parasites.
The idea is that Augur is too important, so they need to block anyone who builds contracts on Ethereum that could hurt Augur.
22:50
Mr Flintstone
can’t you build contracts for which the miners don’t know what is going on
22:50
Zack
The battle isn't settled yet, but the final outcome has been known all along.
22:50
yes, but then you can't widely advertise them.
22:52
well, at least one step of the contract would be pulling data from Augur's contract, right?
So I guess they can just block everyone who does that.
22:52
Mr Flintstone
what if it’s only in the case of dispute
22:52
that you reveal the oracle
22:52
Zack
Couldn't you use this to DOS attack the full nodes though?
They have to process the entire tx to realize if it is something that they want to blacklist
22:53
so you can spam these txs, and none get included so you don't pay any fee
23:01
Stepan Panov
I just think a good title like that will attract more attention, the way it happened with your chainlink review.
23:02
Zack
right.
Since a soft fork to prevent parasites would cause a DOS vulnerability against the full nodes, I think we can safely say that Veil is the death of Augur.
23:07
Eric Arsenault
Good thought Stepan. I'm a fan of catchy titles :)
23:08
Zack
I updated it to the second draft
23:09
I included some stuff based on Mr Flinstone's and Stepan Panov's suggestions
23:15
Eric Arsenault
Nice analysis Zack
23:25
Sebsebzen
So if Veil adds Amoveo oracles, it wouldn’t be bad right?
23:26
It would work as Augur intended, additional layer that can specialise in UI and get small fee separately
23:29
Mr Flintstone
I think it might be challenging to program something that can read amoveo proofs on ethereum from a gas cost efficiency perspective
01:01
Sebsebzen
I also installed Chrome Wallet
01:01
If I open amoveobook it doesn't load any active markets for me
01:06
Spike Spiegel
Augur price is failing vs ETH price - it's quite easy to go long eth / short augur.
01:45
Zack
amoveo's light node is very light. and you only need to sync a few hundred blocks of it to do one short oracles. once one person syncs, the data is available to everyone on ethereum
01:46
it would be a good thing if other blockchains used amoveo's oracle
01:48
Spike Spiegel
What about making ETH smart contract powered by Amoveo?
01:49
How one blockchain may read data from the another?
05:46
K
one Zack > entire multi hundred dollar project teams
05:52
Zack
haha, I wish.
It turns out typing up the software is the easy part, and it is easy enough for one person to do.
The hard part of figuring out what needs to be typed up, anonymous people online do this for free and just give away the solutions.
05:54
K
Are you looking into getting third parties to audit your code? Do you think the governance system will be able to cover those costs
05:56
Zack
Third parties audit the code frequently. I am not looking to hire anyone for this.
The governance system is for determining the values of some constants that define the protocol, it is not for raising funds.
Tools like dominant assurance contracts can raise funds for public goods.
06:08
[Riki]
posting gifs not allowed ?
06:08
true in many aspects
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08:33
Eric Arsenault
I can’t wait to profit every day
12:36
Eric Arsenault
When bet resolves to bad, do both people just get their money back?
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14:54
JOHNwick3's dog
Hey Zack, is there potential for Bitcoin and Ethereum to have Derivatives on them? Can't Bitcoin just use the same tech you have on your coin and use it on Bitcoin? or Ethereum?
Or is there a specific advantage to having Amoveo as its own blockchain independent of the top two?
14:54
such as its a focused blockchain and because the coin is low it incentives developers and investors
14:55
if true, would Amoveo be better?
15:10
Zack
Amoveo re-uses nakamoto consensus inside the oracle.
This is not possible in Ethereum, because smart contracts are sand-boxed away separately from the consensus parts of the blockchain, so they wont break things.
Bitcoin doesn't want to try something so risky as modifying their consensus mechanism. It is too big a change for their community to handle.
http://bitcoinhivemind.com/bitcoin hivemind is an interesting project looking to make a bitcoin side chain with an oracle.
Something like this seems more reasonable than putting it inside bitcoin's main net.
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17:29
I added a trie_mode option, so you can choose to store the merkel tree in ram or on the hard drive.
the ram version is still experimental, it crashes a lot.
but it is very fast.
19:18
K
When have smart contracts broken the actual blockchain
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20:15
A K
Augurs reply that parasite contracts are like derivatives makes sense, no?
20:15
Unless there's a stable liquid spot market, no one would be interested in derivatives referencing it.
20:16
So if noone reports in Augur, AugurLite also fails.
20:16
ppl trade both SP500 stocks and futures,
20:17
futures reference stock settlement price, however noone treats them as parasitic
20:20
though futures obv. reduce commissions NYSE and NASDAQ receive from stock trading
20:21
Zack
where did augur reply? I want to see.
20:23
Paul Sztorc invented the oracle design that Augur uses. You can see in his design notes, it explains why the oracle reporters are incentivized to tell the truth.
The expected future profit from fees needs to exceed how much they could steal all at once by making the market lie.
20:23
A parasite contract reduces the potential for future fees, and increases the potential to steal all at once by making the market lie.
20:23
A K
stack exchange - you reference it
20:23
"Internally, the Augur team has referred to it as the problem of derivative financial markets. ..."
20:25
Have they done any calc on the REP price implied future fees cashflow?
20:25
I've only seen the magical constant 7.5 so far
20:26
I wonder which prevents NYSE more from rigging the settlement price: future profits or regulation and DoJ )
20:28
Zack
I think they do rig it, but on a small enough scale that we don't notice, so they can keep stealing a little at a time.
20:33
A K
well maybe some parties do try to influence the price, like we learned in LIBOR case, I doubt it's NYSE itself
20:33
it's a huge org, you can't run a conspiracy like that without risking whistleblowing
21:17
Mr Flintstone
I haven’t seen a good one but we went thru the exercise a while back I think
21:21
if we assume augur and makerdao game theory is bulletproof the yield on REP still has to be at least > United States risk free since they are moving to a 100% dai model which means rep is now basically a usd yielding asset
21:24
but since REP market cap has to be huge relative to the open interest, taking USA risk free to be 2.5% and REP market cap of 7.5x open interest, this means that on 100 million dollars on open interest you have to generate 2.5%*7.5*100mn or like 20mn usd of fees per year from this pool of only 100mn to satisfy only 2.5% yield for REP holders
21:31
so fees will eventually be high despite being low now since there is a lot of speculative value in rep which seems to be pricing in massive growth of the platform . but if nothing changes from a growth perspective, rep will grind down to a few dollars of fair value. but it could also pump a lot since that’s what coins do
21:47
A K
7.5 is the magical constant though? it's not derived properly, it's not enforced on the protocol level?
21:48
Mr Flintstone
it is hard coded into protocol
21:48
they’re lowering the number though so my math needs to be adjusted
21:48
A K
new bets can't placed if OI reaches REP / 7.5 ?
21:48
Mr Flintstone
no, fees to REP holders are raised until its price goes up enough
21:48
fees drawn from the trading activity in augur
21:49
it is like a central bank trying to strengthen its currency by raising rates
21:49
fee is per market per OI ? so higher velocity of markets helps?
21:50
e.g. 1 year long market vs 365 daily markest - the latter requires proportionally lower REP market cap?
21:55
Zack
what matters is the maximum total volume of bets during the entire year.
Only one moment has the max
21:57
Mr Flintstone
fees are levied on a per trade basis I believe
21:57
so a 1 day trade currently has same fee as 365 day trade
22:56
Stepan Panov
Will do!
22:57
Actually I wont be able to, sending media isn't allowed in this chat 🤷♂️
23:00
Zack
lets put the photos somewhere more consistent that we can make a link to, right?
23:00
they will just get buried in this chat
23:01
Stepan Panov
Yeah I'll make a Google drive thing or something like that
23:01
Zack
that sounds good
23:03
Spike Spiegel
I love that it's reality now!
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23:56
Aries
so cool, this time a year ago we had the first NYC meetup
00:08
Eric Arsenault
I was talking to
@pgonza and we were thinking of something: BTC has ₿, VEO should have a V currency symbol too! First thing that came to mind was V for Vendetta logo 😂, but there are other options too that could be fun
00:15
Gonzalo
Somebody did something before, not sure Who was but maybe the one who did the amoveo logo. Just have a look a few thousand lines above 😁
00:15
Eric Arsenault
lol haha
00:16
good to know thanks!
00:16
Stepan Panov
There are around 60 people in this room, many of them are learning about Amoveo for the first time!
00:17
Eric Arsenault
Great stuff :D
00:19
Eli W
Look like good idea, btc b, litecoin L, Veo V :)
00:21
Mr Flintstone
that’s great
00:26
times I wish I learned Russian
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03:16
Raul
Hey. According to graviex they cant sync their wallets so VEO funds are stuck there. Is something going on or the problem is on their end?
03:18
Zack
They should give me their contact info. Into the future I will give them a warning about every update
03:20
Raul
Alright, I will tell them on my ticket
03:30
Zack
He is showing an augur slideshow.
03:31
Denis Voskvitsov
it was combined event on prediction markets with big central part about Amoveo
03:38
Zack
I see the amoveo part now.
Someone did a 30 minute talk. Who is that talking about amoveo in the video?
03:42
Stepan Panov
That's Denis, head of
exan.tech
03:42
Denis Voskvitsov
yep, it's me
03:59
Alex K
Nice presentation, well done 👍
04:08
Jon Snow
я думал, что вы можете говорить по-русски?
04:15
I look forward to understanding it
04:20
Aries
Aww I wanted to post a Work Harder Comrade Bear 🐻
04:21
How did the Moscow event go
04:23
Raul
Graviex replied to my ticket regarding sync issues: "Coin dev should send us an email with secret code (used through the listing procedure), to make sure he is an official developer."
04:23
Mr Flintstone
they should be aware of zacks GitHub repo
04:24
Zack
I never communicated with them. I have no code.
Some third party paid them to list amoveo.
04:24
Mr Flintstone
I wonder if they have just never updated their node
04:24
Zack
Whoever paid them should try to get a refund
04:27
@kknop claims he was the one to pay graviex to list amoveo.
04:28
Maybe he can convince them to update
04:30
Raul
It would be great if he can do that, im probably not the only one having issues with them
07:45
Zack
A lot of Amoveo's data structures are very memory wasteful.
We tend to use immutable datastructures everywhere, which leaves data sitting around in ram until the garbage collector deals with it, and it means we need to copy the entire database to edit one thing.
Now that we have a year of blocks worth of data, we can identify which data-structures are wasteful, and replace them with better versions.
07:51
I want Amoveo to be able to work on very cheap computers, it seems like at this point you need 2 gb of ram.
It would be nice if we could get it a lot lower.
But what we really need is for it to be possible to set the maximum ram usage in the configuration file. So Amoveo wont use more ram than you tell it to use.
Otherwise it would be possible for an attacker to do something to the blockchain to cause your node to run out of ram and crash.
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08:35
Eric Arsenault
So I’ve been thinking a lot about how Amoveo can sustainably fund ecosystem development, and would like to share an idea I’ve been working on.
The concept is to create a Futarchy governed organization that receives a portion of existing block rewards, which uses those funds to enter into DAC bets for Amoveo commons development (for goals that are governed by futarchy). Below is a diagram outlining how this might look like. Would love to get thoughts from the community on this!
https://www.figma.com/file/PPxXw69WZ3KkvyLb4Q8dhgzO/Amoveo-Commons-Funding?node-id=0%3A1
09:43
Zack
I think this is a bad plan ^
I am against having any foundation that receives developer rewards.
Luckily, we have futarchy, so I don't have to waste time debating against a plan like this.
If you want to do some radical changes to Amoveo, you will need to use futarchy markets to show that the changes are a good thing.
11:14
Eric Arsenault
Do you think it is important grow Amoveo’s ecosystem of builders? How can people who want to contribute do so without any funding?
11:16
Zack
I don't see that as important right now.
I think we need to move fast and find product market fit, at that point we will know what to build, and it will make sense to scale up the ecosystem of builders.
11:22
DAC is one tool that if we could create, that could achieve PMF.
If we abandon DAC and use a foundation, then we are abandoning this possible path towards PMF.
11:29
Deleted Account
zack knows best ❤️
11:37
Eric Arsenault
DAC has not been successful as a funding mechanism. The last two efforts by
@stepanpanov and myself have raised 0 VEO (which is why I’m suggesting an alternative)
11:38
Zack
I found this tool so erlang will tell how much ram it is currently using.
11:39
At block height 3000, the ram usage suddenly drops from around 220 mb to around 120.
This happens consistently when I resync.
I wonder why the first few thousand blocks take so much ram to process?
11:39
sanket
This is true. DAC is difficult to work without knowing the developer or his history.
11:41
Jon Snow
I thought you got funding via DAC for the UI build, no?
11:47
Zack
What was the result of that DAC oracle anyway?
11:50
When I start syncing from the genesis block, the ram consumption can get above 400 mb, but only very briefly.
The rest of the time, it seems like we don't use more than 160 mb or so.
My full node that has synced every block is using 86 mb to maintain itself.
11:52
I am guessing we have some inefficiency in the syncing protocol that is using up lots of ram, and it only happens if you are syncing for the first time.
12:03
Eric Arsenault
Yes, but the amount was very small (not nearly enough for proper compensation)
12:04
Oracle hasn’t settled yet as far as I know
12:06
If this is true, then you should help figure out how to use DAC effectively. Why haven’t you proposed any DAC bets?
12:10
Zack
I did that futarchy market recently. I will try out a DAC sometime.
12:10
ill do a DAC to get someone to leak Game of Thrones 12 hours early
12:17
Spike Spiegel
I agree with Zack here - "show, don't tell and let money speak"
If somebody is unable to create DAC / futarchy bet / run full node + features than it's probably not the best idea to give them funding.
12:38
Eric Arsenault
The funding is not for me
15:05
Ben
i like the idea of Eric, could fuel the ecosystem and we get movement and Traction.
15:07
Eric Arsenault
This is the idea. Zack is very talented, but he is also the weakest link. An ecosystem is needed for us to win. This will lead to the fastest road to product market fit.
15:08
Ben
i think also that the Funds Zack holds will be a problem at one point, since his opion will always be the one that is winning, cause he has the most voting power.
15:08
and the problem is growing with each block.
15:09
Eric Arsenault
I also fear the same thing, although this should get better once founder reward expires
15:09
Ben
oh it is set to expire?
15:11
Eric Arsenault
I thought so, but would be good to get confirmed
15:18
I’ll give an example: creating a JavaScript library for Zacks code would be of great benefit for future projects wanting to build on Amoveo. Right now, there is no way to create this open source commons work and getfunded, unless you are Zack.
Getting these kinds of things funded in a sustainable way will accelerate our ability to go to market. It would be entirely different if Zack was betting in DACs and using his pool of VEO to help foster an ecosystem, but this is not the case.
If we find that a foundation is not moving us closer to our goals, we just use futarchy to burn funds held by the foundation and change course. There is a low risk to trying this, and high potential benefit if it works.
15:23
no, we have to vote it out or zack has to hardfork it away
16:40
Ben
i guess we could also split that or 12.5% to Zack 12.5% in a Fund like Eric porposed
16:42
Sy
something like that...but who controls the fund? 😅
16:43
see above the idea of eric
16:43
Sy
someone has to setup the dac and put money in it
16:43
someone is still in control
16:43
aka has the privkey
16:44
you would setup an oracle and ask what do do, then according to the oracle setup the dac but those are still manual actions
16:45
i agree a devfund would help alot but there is still has to be someone who sets it all up and controls it (and can run with the money) unless zack (or someone else) comes up with some genius automation 😎
16:49
Ghadras
Eric's idea is worth discussing 💯
18:16
Sy
The best trustless solution i can think off is create a new oracle type that gets a text / link, amount and dac runtime that creates the dac on itself vs a dacfund if the oracle resolves to true
if someone wants to abuse it you can get free veo since everyone will vote on false and if someone actually accumulates that many veo that we cant overbet him you got like 1000 blocks time to hardfork and probably another 1000 for dac min runtime but i doubt that will ever happen...
18:16
that would be interesting :)
18:51
sanket
I agree. Ecosystem is surely needed to even build the infrastructure before we find a product market fit.
18:52
Doesn't require to be a foundation as such, but it's worth discussing
18:52
Topab
We don't know what is market fit till we try different things. And in anyway I believe anything that foster development is worth trying and it's never waste. We have futarchy to decide which staff we prioritize
20:05
Zack
With a DAC it is easier to raise money if you don't have a reputation for delivering good products.
People are incentivized to give more if they think you are more likely to fail at achieving the goal you set for yourself.
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20:38
Jon Snow
Agreed, we need people to try different things to find the PMF
21:04
sanket
I doubt that is how it will work.
If I don't know, why will I bet more?
People are willing to take high risk only when they know their risk, if the risk is unknown I would rather be cautious
21:42
Jon Snow
Plus, there might be free-rider problem. If a project funded by DAC will benefit the whole Amoveo community, one might think someone else will fund it via DAC, so he or she might not participate in the DAC due to risk aversion, even though the success of the project will benefit him/her. And this could lead to lower participation in DAC as Eric
@arsena21 observed in his DAC.
21:43
Zack
the risk is that they will successfully deliver, which would cause you to lose the money you put in.
If they fail to deliver, you get your money back plus interest.
So the risk is lower if they are less likely to deliver.
21:44
Eric started work before he had raised enough money. So there was no incentive for anyone to participate. It was clear that Eric would deliver no matter how much he raised, so participating could only cause you to lose veo.
21:44
People only participate in DAC if they think it might fail to achieve the goal.
21:45
The P2P derivatives tooling is getting better. It is only getting easier to participate in DAC as time goes on.
21:46
I did some testing and found out that syncing headers was using up >300 mb.
I did some adjustments, and now the cost of syncing headers stays < 5 mb.
21:48
I am still able to run a full node that has 1 gb of RAM.
As Amoveo scales up, we keep finding ways to improve the algorithms so that system requirements do not get worse.
21:49
Jon Snow
Would this hurt credible developers? Eric started early and highly likely to deliver is a good thing, but it seems that this good thing was hurting his ability to raise money. Is this kind like DAC is punishing good practices and honest behaviors?
21:56
Zack
I don't see how capable developers have any disadvantage.
Doing free work and then asking to get paid after the fact doesn't work for any method of paying developers.
21:59
DAC is nice because it makes it easier for beginners to get started. You don't need some big reputation to get a job.
The fact that beginners can get jobs easily means there is less demand for people with a good reputation.
Blockchains reduce trust, which means there is less need for reputation. This is not a bad thing.
21:59
Depending on reputation when hiring developers makes developers over-priced, and it encourages retirement attacks.
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22:02
Jon Snow
Not saying to abandon the current DAC mechanism, but should we think of something like Sy mentioned as an alternative way for funding to complement the current DAC?
22:05
A trustless way of using futarchy to leverage partial block developer reward to fund various project
22:12
Zack
I think it is a bad strategy to have a public pool of funds that is spent by a community.
There is no cryptoeconomic tool that can efficiently do this.
Amoveo is a project for financial derivatives on the blockchain, not a project to invent new mechanisms for communities to own money collectively.
Owning and spending money collectively is a very hard problem that people have been working on for thousands of years.
Betting all of Amoveo on whether or not we can solve this probably unsolvable problem, I think that is a bad strategy.
22:13
Jon Snow
I agree that owning and spending money collecting is a very hard problem historically and even today.
22:14
Zack
If you guys want to build communism-coin, I encourage you to reuse Amoveo software.
But my personality is more individualistic. I don't like communes or communally owned resources. I am not interested in researching communist technology.
22:17
Jon Snow
But current DAC shows that it is really not helping the community to fund projects given that so far we have not seen a single successful use case of such
22:19
sanket
How do you think we can incentivise someone to build on amoveo without a DAC mechanism?
There are 2 approach I have seen
- Foundation handling the development and it's progress
- Donation
What do you think can be other ways to incentivise other developers to build tools on and for amoveo?
22:19
Jon Snow
Zack I really do hope DAC would work but so far we haven’t seen one single successful case
22:20
Tromp
I think people holders just dont care right now
22:20
As with all altcoins probable most just want price to go up
22:21
If that comes from dacs, development or exposure maybe people are indifferent
22:23
I think price attracts users, but the project has to work first for users to stay
22:27
Jon Snow
Holders doesn’t need to care because they can free-ride this
22:28
Blockchains have a social aspect that could be harder to understand than the tech part
22:29
DAC sounds nice in theory i just dont see people using it because it is hard to understand for the average person and most holders of altcoins just want price increase not to be involved with development
22:38
Jon Snow
En...nice theory on paper but not work in real life... sounds like communism, right Zack? 😂
22:41
Tromp
Hahahaha yeah it looks pretty on paper i just dont see it working with the average guy right now
22:42
I could be wrong of course but i know several veo holders and they dont even care what it is
23:04
Zack
DAC solves the free rider problem because it is profitable to participate. If the goal fails, you get your money back with interest.
23:05
People have been working on owning and spending money collectively for thousands of years, and they haven't found a decent solution.
I think we are the first people to put serious effort into DAC.
We are much more likely to solve DAC vs solving communism.
23:06
DAC is only now possible because of Amoveo technology. This is a new opportunity that we need to explore more fully before we give up on it.
I think the major limitation on DAC so far is in UX.
If it was easy and understandable, people would be participating.
23:14
Jon Snow
Agree that a good UX would attract more people to try it
00:51
Eric Arsenault
In the proposal, the fund would place the bets (that’s its main purpose)
00:59
If DAC has this potential, then I implore you to try raising funds for the work you are working on this way. Not DAC bets about game of thrones. DAC bets about infrastructure.
01:00
sanket
This can be a good start
01:01
Eric Arsenault
The problem is, you have your block reward. This is preventing us from finding a way to fund commons work, since you have no motivation to help solve for this. This should be a top priority. Building an ecosystem is critical.
02:06
Zack
I agree that the long term goal should be to get rid of my developer reward.
Although I think we have not reached that point yet.
Keep in mind that I have never spent or sold any part of the developer reward, and that I have managed to earn over a thousand Veo besides the dev reward, which I also have not sold.
02:07
If you think that it is time to reduce or eliminate the dev reward, feel free to make a futarchy market to prove it.
02:13
Eric Arsenault
This is less important to me, I would rather see you enter into DAC bets to show us how (and if) it can be done. I don’t think it is a good way to fund Amoveo commons but would love to be proven wrong.
02:35
Zack
Ok, I'll do a dac for something after hard update 17 activates.
02:35
It's too annoying before then
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03:27
Eric Arsenault
Great
03:41
Zack
I have been working to reduce the RAM consumption of Amoveo.
If you run Amoveo with conservative settings for RAM, it is like this:
5 mb of erlang core stuff
20 mb of software, amoveo code, and libraries.
24 mb of block headers.
10-70 mb for all other erlang processes, including blocks queued up to be synced, your list of active peers, the mempool, and memory for the 460-odd other processes that make up Amoveo.
So in the most conservative settings it is using 120 mb of ram total.
You can choose to keep the merkel proofs in ram, which currently costs an additional 25 mb of ram, but can make your node much faster.
The cost of doing this increase as the number of accounts and channels increases, but if you use sharding, you can keep this cost arbitrarily small.
you can keep the recent blocks in ram, and store them as compressed chunks instead of one block at a time. This saves space on the hard drive, and reduces bandwidth cost of serving blocks to other nodes around 10x. This costs 25 mb of ram as well.
So by using the most aggressive high-speed settings, you can need up to 170 mb of ram total to run Amoveo.
03:55
A couple days ago we were using 350+ mb in the conservative version, so there has been a lot of improvement.
03:57
It seems like there are around 30 mb of memory leaks happening during syncing, probably in zombie processes.
So it should be fairly easy to make even more improvements to ram consumption.
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05:13
Zack
I found 15 mb of the memory leak
05:54
Zack
My vps have much better internet speed, and this causes them to have more memory leaks.
It looks like they still leak more than 50 mb while syncing, even after including the 15mb fix I had found.
So if your internet speed is faster, you need more ram to run Amoveo.
05:59
and when syncing faster, they are using like 60mb extra, and with the bigger memory leak, it is costing double for nodes with fast internet.
08:42
Zack
After all my updates to the database, my laptop with slow internet is syncing 150 blocks per second.
Compare that to the 15 blocks per second I was getting a couple weeks ago.
but the server is now syncing 35 blocks per second, and it used to sync 60 blocks per second.
These updates actually made the server slower.
I guess after the updates, now the hard drive isn't used almost at all, and bandwidth has gone down significantly. But CPU costs have increased by almost double.
The server never had issues with hard drive speed or bandwidth, it was CPU limited. So the update made the server slower at syncing.
09:34
Zack
I wonder if any other blockchain has CPU bottle-necking?
Servers are almost always limited by hard drive or bandwidth.
A server being limited by cpu is super unusual.
09:35
Probably I have some terrible algorithms somewhere causing this to happen.
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13:09
Zack
Whoever is betting against me in the game of thrones oracle, you should contact me to we can close the channel and get our money out.
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14:26
Zack
I found a big error in CPU with the new database.
After fixing it, both the server and my laptop are doing more than 100 blocks per second with the new version of the database.
14:26
I think I am going to make the high-speed mode be the default, and give instructions for the low-ram mode for people who want to do that.
14:30
My server that only has 1 gigabyte of ram, it can sync with the network using high-speed mode.
14:32
I did the first 12600 blocks in under 2 minutes. That is the first 20% of the blocks.
14:34
the first 1/3 of the blocks in 4:15
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15:18
Zack
looks like the new database for blocks crashes at height 38000. It looks like some value from the oracles tree got deleted somehow.
15:52
Zack
looks like moving the merkel trees into ram was causing this bug. the new blocks database is fine.
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16:24
Sy
did you push all changes? trying to sync one node and it keeps crashing...
16:25
nvm i think the rebar3 upgrade fixed it
16:26
Zack
master branch is broken right now
16:26
im going to revert to a couple days ago, and then re-do the changes more slowly.
16:40
I have 3 different nodes trying to sync code from the 17th 18th and 19th all at the same time.
16:49
may17restore branch works
16:57
may18restore branch works
17:00
fork 17 is activated in may18restore.
So I guess I will make this the master branch for now, and I can re-add the updates from after this point more carefully.
17:04
Sorry about that guys.
It was a really weird error, there was no sign anything was wrong until block 38600.
master branch should be working fine now.
17:23
Alfred
There could be some kind of CI/CD pipeline, I'm pretty sure we can set this up on a low end server and have it run a test suite so you can ensure avoiding this
17:25
If you want help setting up a workflow that would avoid a lot of errors for a reasonable time investment you can hit me up. It'll even save you time in the long run
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01:08
Zack
It looks like all my reversions did not help.
It seems like this is a probabilistic error, so it doesn't happen every time.
Now I think that the bug is in a dependency, so I am reverting the dependencies.
01:09
A K
Zack, when do you think VEO will switch to a more sane hard fork schedule?
01:10
Every half a year maybe, like Monero?
01:10
With current update velocity any outside party willing to support the project would be quite challenged I’m afraid
01:11
not just hardforks, also testnet usage, like every project does? run code on testnet for a week at least?
01:11
Zack
until we have product market fit, I think we should keep iterating as fast as we can.
01:12
We are certainly moving fast and breaking things.
01:13
Spike Spiegel
Is there any blockchain product with product market fit?
01:14
Zack
ethreum had some apps get popular, like ICOs.
bitcoin achieved PMF as a currency.
01:15
Eric Arsenault
What do you think is best metric to assess PMF for Amoveo?
01:17
Zack i wanted to update the pools primary today, are the git and dependencies okay?
01:18
Zack
give me a few hours, and lets talk again.
01:19
it looks like reverting the dependencies fixed it, but I am doing some more thorough testing
01:20
Mr Flintstone
open liquidity for trades
01:20
like on zacks website
01:21
Sy
Ill wait until tomorrow then
01:22
Zack
we have 400 blocks until the scheduled hard fork. maybe we should delay the hard fork until later.
This is such a mess.
01:24
Eric Arsenault
He says revenue you can keep is closest you can get to a single metric. Not really relevant for Amoveo. Isn’t beta successfully placed a better metric for this projects?
01:24
Mr Flintstone
3 days or so
01:25
anyone can fake matched bets on amoveo. you can’t fake unmatched bets
01:25
so I think that is a good measure of use
01:25
And if there is enough betting then amoveo found pmf
01:25
Eric Arsenault
Like the order book?
01:26
Zack
there is a good chance the P2P tool + website will be our first killer app
01:26
I fully synced with the mainnet branch.
01:26
looks like reverting dependencies fixed it.
01:26
I am going to sync it all one more time to be sure.
01:27
because it is a probabilistic error.
01:30
Eric Arsenault
I see this as a requirement for any use cases, but the tool itself if not a use case. We need use cases for it to be useful, no?
01:31
Zack
We had iterations before this tool existed.
I spent a long time focused on the centralized market hosted on a lightning hub.
01:34
If an update doesn't change any consensus code, then we certainly don't need a testnet to try it out.
This is what the configuration file and the rebar.config file are for. So you can choose your own settings and versions of the dependencies when running a mainnet node.
01:34
Next time I try to fix these dependencies, I will make a new github branch, so we can try them out and be sure they work before we make them the default versions.
01:40
it broke at 38600 again ;___;
master branch is still no good.
01:44
now I am trying to revert amoveo back to may 15th, and I am using dependencies from may 1.
01:46
Spike Spiegel
BTW what about using some Jenkins / CI / CD tools for amoveo?
01:56
Alfred
I'm willing to help set that up
01:56
Zack
looks like the version from the 15th is working
01:56
ill make that the master branch for now
01:56
it has hard update 17 activated in it already.
02:11
Zack
I synced from the 15th twice now. it seems to be working fine.
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09:49
Zack
In some ways programming blockchain is easier that most other kinds of programming.
For example, you never have to worry about losing or corrupting the database of customer information, if it is duplicated on every full node.
Normally having 100% uptime means you need very reliable software. But blockchains nodes could randomly shut off every week or so, and it wouldn't even matter. There are so many different people running nodes, and they have a financial incentive to keep turning them on when they crash.
09:51
Out of the stuff that got reverted, I re-activated around 3/4ths of it in the experimental branch on amoveo's github. and I have confirmed that I can sync and it doesn't crash.
09:52
headers can use the new database, we can compress blocks that are queued up waiting for their turn to be synced.
09:53
the parts I haven't re-activated yet are the database for storing blocks in compressed pages, and the RAM version of the merkel trees.
10:02
I guess ill merge this stuff into master branch, since all the tests are passing and I can sync all the blocks.
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22:30
Sy
git pulled the current, didnt accept my existing blocks, resyncing - lets wait and see
22:31
syncing speed is nice considering that it was about the same speed with 10 blocks per step and now we do 100 :D
Gatis Eglitis invited 😷Oleg Reshetnikov
Gatis Eglitis invited Serge Umansky, Abdalla Kablan, Alex Dreyfus - $CHZ, Alexander Rugaev, Alexandra Kirienko, alexd and Alex
Gatis Eglitis invited Shawn
22:37
😷Oleg Reshetnikov
Привет!
Бро, а что это такое? )
22:47
Zack
блокчейн amoveo предназначен для производных финансовых инструментов. есть русский канал на нашем разногласии
https://discord.gg/gqTQpWC
22:47
Stepan Panov
на нашем дискорде*
22:48
google translate translated discord as disagreement haha
22:49
Zack
Thanks Stepan )
22:53
faster syncing made a big difference for solving the bug at height 38600.
22:54
😷Oleg Reshetnikov
✌️👍
23:25
Sy
Ah yeah thats where it stopped at without prod-clean
23:26
Zack
I am not sure if git pull can correctly handle undoing commits
23:30
Sy
Yes i noticed, i moved the dir, cloned fresh and moved DB/ Back in
23:30
But had to clean anyway
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01:21
Instinct
Great write up 😎
01:22
Deleted Account
same instinct from reserve chat?
@inst1nct1
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02:10
Zack
looks like the veil guys realized their mistake, and have stopped supporting the parasite parts of their project.
02:36
Zack
@Denis You don't need any mutual trust to settle early after the hard update activates in a couple days.
If you raise money with the DAC, the money isn't immediately available to spend.
But lets say you were originally planning to raise money from a VC or a bank.
If you can go to the VC, and show that you have $1 million locked in a DAC, and you have a plan to deliver on the goal that costs $100k, then it should be easy to convince the VC to lend you the money that you need.
The VC doesn't have to wonder if customers will actually buy the product, because they can see that the customer's money is already locked up, just waiting to pay for the product. So it is a lower risk investment for the VC, which means they can charge less in interest for the loan, and still make a profit.
02:39
Denis Voskvitsov
thanks for comment. sure I undertsand this, but the question was exactly on the case when developer (for instance) need some money just now and how DAC can help him
02:39
maybe his product is too small for VC etc
02:40
like, I need 10 grands to drop my job tomorrow and work on the product full time for 3 months
02:41
Zack
it works on the small scale too.
If I have $1000 locked in a DAC to make T-shirts, and I need $100 to buy the T-shirts and have them printed, then it would be very easy to get a loan from a friend or family member, because I can prove to them that I will be able to pay them back right away. the customer's money is already locked up.
02:41
Denis Voskvitsov
you're right but this needs additional funds source anyway
02:42
Zack
there are tons of sources of funds on earth, but we can only access them if the risks are low enough.
With a DAC you can get the risk as low as possible, so it will be easy to convince people to loan you money.
02:43
you can sell the product before you raise money to build it.
02:44
this solves a major risk: whether or not the product will get sold.
02:44
Denis Voskvitsov
yes, there are options indeed
I'll mention them next time similar question will be raised
02:45
Zack
its good someone asked the question. this is a good conversation topic, we should probably make some more documentation about it.
02:48
There are people who control billions of dollars, and their entire job is to look for good investments.
Once you have the DAC set up, your project is practically a guaranteed successful investment.
The investors will be coming to you with very low interest rates.
03:03
Deleted Account
when betting on an event, could it happen that since most participants have bet on one outcome then the rest will simply piggy back on that and bet based on the fact that most people bet on that outcome?
03:05
Zack
so for example, if someone already raised money to pay for something, you want to try and raise money for the same thing a second time, so that he will deliver and you don't have to actually build the thing?
or am I misunderstanding?
03:07
Deleted Account
So.
- I log in, and see there's a bet for whether trump will be president in 2020.
- I see the odds are 60% he wins, 40% he doesn't
- Since most people are betting he will win, I assume that is correct so I go with the win
- Now odds are say 62% that he will win, and people will keep doing this on and on
- Just because they assume the majority will be right
03:07
then the whole wisdom of the crowds goes out the window
03:07
Zack
oh, you are wondering if betting markets actually work as prediction markets or not
03:09
The market for corn futures is a sort of prediction market to predict how much corn we will consume in the next months, and how much corn will be grown in the next months.
If most people think that the price of corn will be $165 next month, and we apply your logic, would people endlessly buy up corn futures for next month until it is >$1000 per ton?
03:11
Deleted Account
That makes sense.
03:12
Zack
With markets, the kind of people who participate are the kind of people who make profitable decisions.
If you make decisions that are not profitable, then you run out of money and stop participating.
The kind of people who buy corn for $1000 a ton, they quickly run out of money and stop participating.
Similarly, if you pay too much to bet in a presidential election, you will run out of money compared to the more intelligent gamblers.
03:12
Markets are kind of like a brain. They get more intelligent over time because participants with bad predictive abilities keep running out of money and dropping out.
03:12
Алексей Колосов
Zack, speak Russian?
03:12
Zack
no, but I can use google translate.
03:13
Алексей Колосов
зря епта)
03:13
Deleted Account
so futarchy only works when there are enough participants and the right kind of participants, correct?
03:14
for ex. not the same having crypto traders betting on the outcome of a basketball game than basketball analysts
03:14
Naid 🐾 e13
A motivation sets the right kind, isn't it?
03:14
Zack
If you are going to make a decision for a community, the only information available to you is the information known by the members of that community.
This is true of futarchy, and all other decision making mechanisms.
03:15
if you use a vote, the community members can only vote based off of information that they know.
03:15
if you let a dictator decide, well, the information that he knows is a subset of the information available to the community.
03:17
Deleted Account
ok, thank you
03:17
Zack
Amoveo is a lot like a religion. We are building a god on earth.
But Amoveo is not some omniscient celestial being. It can only make decisions based on information that is available to us.
03:20
Deleted Account
gotcha, that makes sense. pardon the change of topic, but is there any book that you recommend for learning game theory?
03:30
Deleted Account
thank you
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06:01
Zack
I am able to sync the blockchain using the new database for blocks
06:07
the only thing left is to enable ram mode for the merkel trees.
08:03
Zack
I got merkel trees working in RAM. so now everything is restored.
08:05
It seems like the ram version is running at 1/2 speed.
so for now I will leave the hard drive version as default, and I will try to find what is slowing down the ram version.
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08:21
Zack
I cleaned up all the trash branches we had made to recover.
09:20
Zack
159,65,120,84 I am giving up control of this server. If you have any links pointed to it, you need to use some other full node instead.
09:26
{{{116,203,34,251},8080},{ok,66775}},
{{{116,203,153,136},8080},{ok,66775}},
{{{159,69,59,195},8080},{ok,66775}},
{{{139,59,144,76},8080},{ok,66775}},
{{{116,203,79,46},8080},{ok,66775}},
{{{159,65,120,84},8080},{ok,66775}}]
Here is the full list of nodes that are ready for the hard update in 2 days.
09:26
and I am about to turn one of them off.
09:27
there are 3 mining pools, and at least 3 exchanges. it looks like not everyone is ready.
09:44
Eric Arsenault
Who decides which metrics can be bet on using futarchy for Amoveo’s governance changes? Price is the obvious one. But for example, if we agree Price is driven by A, B, C metrics, then I think we should also be able to bet on A, B, C metrics to make changes via futarchy. Thoughts?
09:44
Zack
it is permission-less. you can make futarchy markets for whatever you want
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09:56
Eric Arsenault
I know I can make markers for whatever. I am wondering which metrics are considered “valid” to make Amoveo protocol changes?
For example: if futarchy market was created for a hard fork proposing to use 100% of VEO block reward to go to a single person, and we wanted to see if this was correlated with more VEO being held by that person... event A and B are highly correlated, but B should not be a metric that can be used to make Amoveo futarchy governance decisions.
09:58
Zack
If there are large communities who are interested in both of the outcomes, then it could theoretically cause a fork in the community, so we could each have our own blockchain.
09:59
Eric Arsenault
But it’s not necessarily that they are interested. Don’t they bet on what they think is truthful outcome?
10:02
Like if you created two markets: one for VEO held by that person with the change, and one for VEO held by that person without the change
10:02
Then clearly, market 1 would win
10:02
Zack
Just because something is factually true doesn't mean I want to support it.
It is a true fact that starting a war would lead to more deaths. You could use a futarchy market to show that this is a true.
Even though it is true, I still wouldn't want to support war.
10:03
Eric Arsenault
So in this case, futarchy would cause a fork: people stay on sides they want
10:04
Zack
futarchy doesn't cause a fork
10:04
it is a tool to help us settle disagreements
10:04
the disagreement was already there before we tried using futarchy to solve it
10:05
Eric Arsenault
But in the example above, there is no disagreement really
10:05
Zack
If a fire extinguisher fails to put out all the flames, you wouldn't say "the fire extinguisher caused this fire."
10:06
Eric Arsenault
We know the answer, but just because we know the answer, we still don’t make protocol change
10:06
Zack
what example? about war?
10:06
Eric Arsenault
This one
10:06
We know first market will have higher price
10:06
Zack
a futarchy market to give someone different the dev reward instead of me?
10:07
Eric Arsenault
It’s an example, I am trying to understand
10:07
(Limits of how futarchy can be used for protocol changes)
10:07
Zack
If you lose the bet on one side of the fork, then you won the bet on the other
10:07
we are measuring the relative value of tokens on each side of the fork.
10:08
if you can show that making a change will result in a higher price of veo, then we would make that change.
I don't see what the confusion is.
10:09
Eric Arsenault
Metric there is price of VEO
10:09
Zack
oh, your example isn't with the price of veo?
10:10
Eric Arsenault
In my example, my metric was the amount of VEO held by the person
10:10
Zack
ok, so your example you are asking about is this:
Q1: is Bob getting the dev reward instead of Zack?
Q2: is Bob's account richer than before?
10:11
Zack
and you expect to show that giving Bob more veo will make his account richer?
10:11
he could just spend it all
10:11
Eric Arsenault
Ok, change Q2 to : Is Bob receiving more VEO than before
10:12
Zack
The goal of a futarchy question is to provide evidence to a community to help them come to a decision.
In this case, I think the evidence wouldn't matter to anyone.
10:14
Eric Arsenault
I’ve been thinking about this, it’s definitely not always black and white
10:14
Zack
You have to consider your audience, and what they want. Then you try and show them that some strategy is useful in achieving the goal that they actually care about.
10:14
Eric Arsenault
Yeah
10:14
What if people disagree on the goal
10:14
Zack
Amoveo can't force people to want what they don't want.
10:15
It would be terrifying if it could
10:15
Zack
it can lead a horse to water, and make it drink
10:18
Is there such a thing as a community that lacks any shared goals, and yet they still want to come to a decision together?
If the community doesn't have any preference for which decision is made, then that means futarchy wouldn't be beneficial to them anyway.
10:19
if a coin-flip can already solve the issue optimally, then there is no reason to use futarchy.
10:34
Eric Arsenault
When you’ve mentioned that you see futarchy as a religion, I guess I assumed that this meant you would make protocol changes from results of futarchy markets even if you don’t agree with the goal.
10:35
futarchy is a god here on earth. it knows more than any one of us.
A networked higher intelligence.
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15:38
Sy
I'll update the primary poolnode today
15:46
With existing blocks or forced resync?
15:56
forced resync...just updated and it wouldnt start with old data dir, had to prod-clean
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19:53
out of anyone who is running a frozen node, can you tell me what is going on?
19:57
66573 is empty of txs. I wonder why everyone is refusing to sync it.
19:57
I am syncing a fresh node now to make sure it works
20:08
NM$L
How's veo going？
20:08
Zack
not so good right now
20:08
NM$L
what bad things happend
20:19
Sebsebzen
What’s wrong?
20:21
Zack
it looks like some people are unable to sync because their config file is missing some new variables
20:21
I recommend syncing amoveo into a new directory, and copying your private keys over.
20:43
without that config value the newest node didnt even start but already running nodes with the fork code stopped syncing
20:43
Zack
congratulations to
veopool.pw for keeping their mining pool running during this difficult update.
Amoveo is lucky to have the support of someone competent at operations like Sy.
20:44
Sy
Thanks but it was just a mix of luck and lazyness, i updated 6h ago thats why i had the newest code running on the primary node 😂 even my backup node 16h older went out of sync
20:45
if i hadnt pulled the code that late only your node would have lost sync tho and the others would be fine so...dunno if it is good or bad but both lolo and OK are responsive so updates are being done
20:46
Gonzalo
make: *** No rule to make target 'config/sys.config.tmpl', needed by 'config/prod/sys.config'. Stop.
20:46
Sy
everything should be back to normal soon and the whole story took maybe an hour
20:47
yes, copy sys.config.tmpl.default to sys.config.tmpl
20:47
ive written down my update steps
21:01
Zack
we are back up to 5 nodes in sync
21:25
Zack
I think I found a fix.
I am going to run one node as a bridge, to convert blocks from the new form to the old form, so old un-updated nodes will be able to get in sync.
21:26
we already fixed 1/2 the nodes, so it is a little late to do this update
21:27
but it could get the exchanges working again right away
21:54
Zack
I got the bridge set up. lets see if nodes return to sync.
21:56
we have 11 top height nodes. Amoveo is looking decentralized again.
22:01
looks like the bridge did not work. everyone has to update.
22:05
Gonzalo
Done! Thanks again Sy
22:05
Zack
good job Gonzalo
22:06
blocks came slow these last couple hours, so the difficulty will be lower for the next few hours.
22:21
amoveopool found a couple blocks, it is confirmed still working.
22:59
Zack
on my new server I have 1 gig of ram.
a fully installed Amoveo in sync + all of ubuntu is less than 300 mb.
At most, while syncing, it was using <400 mb of RAM.
I think maybe the vps is giving me 2 gigs of ram, even though I only paid for 1.
So it is actually < 800 mb while syncing, and <600mb to stay in sync.
23:01
Spike Spiegel
Hey radical proposal: some people think that bitcoin would be unstable with no mining rewards.
It's possible that Amoveo could be secure with tx fees only?
23:07
Spike Spiegel
Thanks, I was looking for it!
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06:34
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
Amoveo is very experimental software. There is high probability that you will lose everything that you invest in this project. Invest less than you can afford to lose.
You are certainly one of a kind Zack
Keep it up
08:07
Eric Arsenault
Honesty is a good thing. Until amoveo finds product market fit, it is very speculative.
08:25
Deleted Account
hence the low mcap 😉, i agree.
10:18
Zack
Now it seems like Amoveo only needs 400 mb of RAM to sync fully.
my vps website is giving me confusing info.
11:29
Zack
Currently the database of headers is about 24 mb and the databases for all the Merkel trees for all accounts and channels and everything is like 6 mb
So if we made a full node that didn't store the blocks, the total hard drive memory requirement would be around 33 mb, and you could use it as a mining pool, or to run a website or a channel node.
I think you would still need like 200 mb of ram for when you are syncing.
Is that a setting you guys would be interested in using?
Maybe you want Amoveo on a 1 gb thumb disk plugged into a raspberry pi type computer?
14:50
BG5EHI
有用bsv换VEO的吗？
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00:38
Zack
about 30 more blocks till the hard update activates
01:24
K
Are VEO's lightning network + smart contract capabilities already built?
01:47
Mr Flintstone
yeah but not super easy to use atm. it’s getting there incrementally. ppl have used the smart contracts for things like long/short veousd price
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04:13
Zack
4 blocks until the hard update activates
05:35
“Volatility: The “informed” participant narrative gets crushed under buyers simply following a market if there’s a distinct trend due to volatility. One individual manipulating the market can simply swing one way and have the less-informed traders simply follow the market trend rather than understand what type of proposal they’re actually voting on.”
05:40
Deleted Account
it’s a very valid point
05:40
i’ll check out the video, thanks
05:45
Deleted Account
when will people actually start using VEO as they use eth or will use chainlink? what use cases. it seems like people dont like the futarchy or the markets of veo
05:45
im not sure i understand the differentiators when it comes to actual use case
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13:15
Eric Arsenault
Finding Product-market fit is a great goal. I tried to break down goals/metrics for Amoveo assuming that unmatched bets is a good metric for PMF. The purpose for this is to try and understand what levers exist to achieve PMF. Zack do you agree with these levers? Do you think there are other sub goals that would be important in helping Amoveo find PMF?
15:01
Worriesome for VEO too
15:08
A K
anyone knows their VEO wallet?
15:09
Instinct
Mr Flintstone 12.03.2019 05:36:19
15:10
A K
not too bad, even if it's the only one
15:16
and this got 2500 VEO from HitBTC wallet, so probably also HitBTC cold or smth
15:17
so as far as VEO concerned, seems HitBTC is OK
15:17
of course, we can't rule out bad will etc
15:17
but the Veo is there
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22:27
Zack
I remember this debate was one of my biggest motivations for deciding to study blockchain prediction markets.
At the time I had recently read David Friedman's book "The Machinery of Freedom", which is still one of my favorite books. Seeing him giving comments after the debate is very cool.
David Friedman formalized a decentralized market based solution for law, and Robin Hanson figured out a decentralized market based solution for decision making.
Along with Satoshi, who figured out how to make decentralized digital currency, these are the 3 people who are the sparks that have ignited the decentralized economic revolution.
Money, law, and governance; 3 pillars that support modern civilization, all being replaced by decentralized alternatives at the same time.
What a time to be alive.
22:39
Deleted Account
what's the decentralized alternative for law
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22:58
Deleted Account
is amoveo also a decentralized market based solution for law?
22:59
Zack
Amoveo can only enforce derivative contracts.
Futarchy on Amoveo could help us make decisions that lead to a world with polycentric law.
22:59
Friedman didn't invent polycentric law, he is just describing how things worked before centralized governments started enforcing centralized law.
23:04
He was about 28 when he wrote the book, the last decade has been US in the 60s, a counter-culture anti-authoritarian time period.
I think Friedman was trying to give an economic justification for their anarchist ideals, to show that we can have rules without rulers.
His father was a good economist too, I think Friedman was trying to resolve the discord between his father's economic world, and the new cultural norms he was growing up in.
23:17
Deleted Account
.. does wide adoption of futarchy market means end of government and companies etc?
23:20
Zack
David Friedman showed that decentralized governance is not only economically feasible, that it is more efficient, and that it is far from dead, we use it for many parts of society every day.
But we couldn't organize to make the decision to do for everything. Any organization would become a centralized institution of power. Current centralized institutions wielding power did not want to give up that power. They would decide not to use give up their power to polycentric law.
Robin Hanson showed that we can make decisions in a decentralized way, which could allow us to make the decision to use polycentric law for more parts of life. But again, the centralized institutions aren't so interested in letting us use tools that could take away their power.
So Paul Sztorc found a way to reuse technology from Bitcoin to build Robin Hanson's markets in an unstoppable way, which will allow us to make the decentralized decisions we need to start using polycentric law more often.
23:22
companies already use polycentric law in many cases. private arbitration is cheaper, and the settlements are more favorable on both sides, because the mediators have an incentive to keep their clients happy.
23:22
Deleted Account
but eos already had DACs
23:22
Zack
The government legal system is something that profitable companies want to avoid.
23:23
Deleted Account
also the problem with DACs is that you are still liable as long as you participate in it, EOS solved that problem by registering in jurisdictions that are friendly to business. not really a governance issue that DACs solve
23:24
i think VEO should go for gambling and prediction market gambling
23:24
otherwise not enough differentiator at the moment
23:24
Zack
EOS DAC means Decentralized Autonomous Community. It has nothing to do with Amoveo DAC = Dominant Assurance Contracts.
23:25
Deleted Account
yeah i just mean decentralized governance in general
23:25
Zack
DAC is for raising funds to build public goods. it is not related to governance.
23:25
Deleted Account
isn't actually decentralized, because governments will just say ok it looks like a corporation or security issuer, and that's enough for us to arrest you
23:26
as we saw with etherdelta, decentralized isn't actually decentralized
23:26
unless you are anonymous
23:26
Zack
Are you talking about Amoveo's governance system, which is used to adjust the variables that define the protocol, or are you talking about futarchy in general?
23:26
Deleted Account
im talking about the legal system in general
23:26
coercive regimes can always override any "decentralized" governance system if actors are not fully anonymous
23:27
Zack
Amoveo is a platform for financial derivatives.
23:27
Futarchy is not a legal system, it is a tool for making decisions.
23:27
Deleted Account
ok i guess the focus has changed on amoveo which is a good thing
23:28
Zack
On the one hand, you say we should have prediction markets, but on the other, you say not to have futarchy.
But they are literally the same thing.
23:28
Deleted Account
what im really saying is that your system isn't really decentralized, that's all
23:28
Zack
Amoveo has always been a platform for derivatives.
23:29
No change in focus.
23:29
Deleted Account
it doesn't have any more advantage than a fnancial derivatives market based in the cayman islands or something
23:29
than a *centralized market
23:29
since etherdelta was also shut down
23:29
or at least the current owner was forced to sell and now the chinese owners are in trouble
23:29
Zack
Amoveo is secured using Nakamoto consensus. it is as decentralized and trustless as bitcoin.
23:30
Deleted Account
but it's not decentralized against state actors
23:30
since the creator of bitcoin was anonymous, the creator of veo is not
23:30
same with etherdelta, they claimed it was secured by the consensus of the ethereum mining system
23:31
Zack
It is not my responsibility if the etherdelta team lies and you fall for it.
23:31
Deleted Account
my point is if VEO actually ever got big and used for financial prediction markets, regulators would just immediately step in and force you to sell your shares to another person
23:32
your shares being the block reward shares, and then im guessing veo dev progress would slow down a lot
23:32
Zack
i would just delete all my shares
23:32
Deleted Account
they wouldn't allow you to be involved at all anymore
23:32
even if you did delete your shares they wouldn't allow you to develop it any more
23:32
Zack
I know that the governments can take my freedom at any time. That is true for all of us.
23:32
Deleted Account
what eth did right is that they had an amazing legal team avoid such problems and a lot of other devs
23:33
i dont see that with VEO, it's hard to diffuse the responsibility to others since you're the only main dev
23:33
you need other devs to scapegoat so that they have to send everyone to jail which is hard (what eth did right)
23:34
Zack
Are you just here to advertise Ethereum?
23:34
Deleted Account
the government could not reasonably destroy eth though, because of the many things they did that other projects didn't
23:34
no im just saying is that this project should become more decentralized for it to work in the long run
23:35
Zack
Raising money and hiring people you don't need is a terrible strategy. I would end up needlessly in debt.
23:35
Deleted Account
but im saying we need more devs involved
23:35
more people involved that are getting paid, otherwise its too easy for governments to coerce you
23:36
Zack
It is easier to coerce a person who is in debt.
23:36
Deleted Account
yeah i agree
23:37
but its easier to coerce a person that didn't take most of the block reward than a person that only received a small percent of the fundraising (vitalik)
23:37
anyways i guess its a problem for later, first need users and then its a good sign if this problem actually exists
23:37
it means that people are actually using it before regulators get involved
23:38
Zack
If Amoveo worked, then there would be DAC to raise money to build Amoveo, so they could turn off my dev reward.
23:38
Deleted Account
and by the way zack have you ever started other crypto projects before this?
23:40
Zack
AA is a troll, right?
23:41
Eric Arsenault
(Look on github)
23:41
Deleted Account
no im actually the top 10 holder of VEO
23:41
Eric Arsenault
I don’t think he is a troll
23:41
Deleted Account
sorry number 11
23:42
Eric Arsenault
Zack was involved with blockchain projects before this, I’m surprised you don’t know this
23:42
Zack
the light node allows you to make signatures to prove if you control an account
23:42
Deleted Account
no i do know
23:42
but i just want to figure out if he's dedicated to stick with this project for years to come
23:42
since a lot of people may drop out. but some projects that stick for long can work well
23:43
i just wonder if he's done other individual projects before and the result of those in which he started individually
23:44
i guess this veo is the one he is in most control of which would be a very positive sign
23:47
i just hope my bags will pump :) its quite disappointing in this bull market
23:48
sorry about the rant and mild trolling, i guess i'm just a bit anxious for the VEO pump😂
23:49
Zack
I can explain math and game theory and logic, but there is no way to prove what is in my heart.
Every part of my life is optimized for doing Amoveo. My daily schedule, the locations I live in, the citizenship I hold.
I even plan out my exercise and dietary regime to optimize for productivity.
Every one of my friends and family associates me to Amoveo, and if I stopped working on Amoveo, then I would have wasted the last 3 years of my life in their eyes.
23:50
Deleted Account
that's a very good sign
23:51
as an investor the only question for me in that case is the inflation. it seems like it could take as long as 5 years for a VEO pump, which means that i would have to wait for price to decline a lot before buying
23:53
is it possible to move VEO to a hybrid POS
/POW with a capped supply i guess
23:54
Zack
I am motivated to build something.
I have this dream, of a decentralized intelligence that can make all the tough decisions for us. To replace voting and dictators.
I think it will make the world better for everyone.
23:54
if you think the block reward is too high, we can make a futarchy market to find out and lower it
23:54
Deleted Account
i mean the problem is that to fulfill this dream you need more capital, and that requires a good VEO pump
23:55
yeah that would be really helpful
23:55
because then price would go up and more money for you to fulfill the dreams. i know you're a great dev, but there's always more to do :)
23:55
Zack
The purpose of the block reward is to allow for more smooth growth and new investment. security is only a side effect.
23:55
growth leads to network effects and can cause price increases
23:55
having too low of a block reward can prevent network effects.
23:56
what I mean is, we want to optimize the block reward to help the price of veo be higher
23:56
Deleted Account
the main issue i see isn't the block reward number itself, is that we as investors don't feel we have security against inflation (it's unlimited after all), even more inflation than a western central bank!
23:57
for example if it were to have a halfening every 4 years for VEO, that would be amazing because I could figure out if the market long-term valuation is lower than my expected valuation so that I could buy
23:57
at this point im just waiting for a pump and will dump all my bags at 5-10x, since there's no set valuation 🙈
23:59
Zack
There is a balance between having a solid plan, which can help investors plan ahead, vs being adaptable and able to change.
At this point, I tend to think that adaptability is best.
But if you want, we can use futarchy to find out which would be best.
23:59
Deleted Account
yes please do :))
23:59
but also you should have your own opinion on it because after all you can influence the futarchy
23:59
nobody will vote unless they hear your opinion
00:00
Deleted Account
because after all nobody should bet against zach in the market
00:00
so i guess the root of the problem is you don't have any plan to end the inflation or a set plan in mind yet
00:00
after all bitcoin schedule was just arbitrary , even satoshi admitted that
00:00
so i would just say flip some coins and pick an arbitrary few numbers to solve the inflation issue once and for all :)
00:02
or for the first iteration at least, its good enough
00:02
Zack
I feel like it is best if the Amoveo community keeps the ability to change in the future.
Taking away our ability to change the block reward means we wont be able to adapt to sudden growth, or sudden decrease in growth.
But if I am wrong, the futarchy market should be able to prove it to us.
00:03
Deleted Account
yeah thats what i mean, you should create an opinion on the inflation schedule, and then futarchy can solve it
00:04
but first the community needs you to say what capped supply you want for the first iteration so we can vote on it and make it hapapen
00:05
Zack
If you really think that oracle is always going to pick the same as whatever I want, then that means you think Amoveo oracle does not work.
Why would you invest in Amoveo if you think it does not work?
00:05
Deleted Account
i mean unless you do that, it seems to me it's just that you want more money from the VEO block reward (which is obvious from an incentive perspective, I would want the same). But I think best for long-term growth you should know that this is a big deal for investors and they won't go big onto VEO without an initial capped supply plan
00:06
for example VEO is only about 1% of my net worth now, it can increase to 5 or even 10% of it if i have confidence in the capped supply (or at least a rough estimate of that supply for first iteration)
00:06
Zack
I get the largest fraction of the veo if we do what you want and reduce the block reward.
If the block reward stays higher, or increases, then I end up owning a smaller fraction of the veo.
00:07
Deleted Account
well i dont know, it just seems to me theres an incentive alignment issue which is causing pushback on capped supply, and until then it's hard for the big money to start moving in
00:08
Zack
Anyone can make a futarchy market about this at any time. It is permissionless technology that runs 24/7
00:08
I am available if you have questions or need help making any futarchy market that you want to make.
00:12
Deleted Account
i mean its not really useful unless you actually say what you wan the supply to be lol
00:12
we all know that lol
00:12
because nobody will bet against the default (which is zack's opinion of whatever it is right now)
00:13
Zack
I want to do whatever will make the price of VEO go higher.
We can use a futarchy market to find out what decision will make the price of VEO higher.
How much money are you ready to invest in the futarchy market? I will walk you through the steps of making the P2P bets.
00:13
Deleted Account
ah whatever i hope you do the right thing soon :) its a big bull market out there coming and im worried we all might miss the pump. it's your chance to come on top of your former people (aeternity) in the next few months, and i think the only way for a sustainable pump is by a capped supply opinion
00:14
i don't want to risk losing my VEO haha
00:14
Zack
if you really have 1000 veo, and that really is your opinion, then you should be willing to put some of that veo into making a futarchy market.
If you are right, it will cost nothing, and you might even profit.
00:14
Deleted Account
opinion on what
00:15
i don't believe futarchy works though, nick szabo said it was stupid
00:15
Zack
even 6 veo should be enough to take a measurement to find out if capped supply is best
00:15
Deleted Account
its still a lot of money for me
00:15
i could get some nice coke and hookers lol
00:16
if you're willing to put your VEO that would be great
00:16
i dont think people actually use your system to make significant changes yet though? i dont know if your system has been proven to work yet
00:16
maybe im wrong though
00:16
Zack
I will bet too, but someone needs to set up the market first so I can bet.
00:16
Deleted Account
why cant you just set up the market though
00:16
Zack
hard update 17 got through because of a futarchy market.
00:17
Deleted Account
but im sure you made your own opinion
00:17
right now no opinion on capped supply
00:17
or announced your opinion
00:17
ok i guess that's enough for me for today, guess ill just have to wait until you come around to the capped supply idea :)
00:18
Zack
ok, ill make a futarchy market about it.
It would be nice if I can convince someone else to make one sometime though.
00:20
Mr Flintstone
I would probably be willing to bet that price of veo would be higher after switching to a fixed supply schedule
00:20
I would not be surprised that others would as well
00:21
Zack
it works better if the people who want it to change make the market.
00:22
futarchy markets can either prove something, or have inconclusive results. they can't disprove something.
00:22
oh, I got it. I would set up the market to say the price would be lower if we switched to fixed supply.
00:23
honestly though, I think this is just a cosmetic change.
If all it takes to do a hard fork and change to fixed supply is making an off-chain futarchy market, well, we can just make another off-chain futarchy market later to change it again.
00:23
the on-chain governance mechanism is just a interface to make the update easier, so we don't have to do a hard update and git new code from github so often.
00:24
Mr Flintstone
we’ll see if it’s just cosmetic based on the betting activity I think
00:24
I think this is controversial enough to get ppl involved
00:25
Zack
Lately I have been thinking that the on-chain governance system is no good, we should just use hard updates for all of this.
00:25
because the oracle has significant delay periods, and is vulnerable to trolls moving the price around
00:26
or making a market to change the price by 0.1%, and now we can't make another market until the first one settles
00:29
Eric Arsenault
I was thinking the same thing lol
01:36
Ben
please ban joseph petty for posting scam links
02:10
Deleted Account
how do you optimize excercise and nutrition for productivity?
02:44
Zack
back strength is critical for sitting at computers for such long periods.
endurance is good for the mental toughness needed for long periods of focus.
I do intermittent fasting and avoid carbohydrates so that my blood sugar stays in the optimal range for mental clarity.
02:46
Deleted Account
do you excercise at night so you don’t get tired throughout the day?
02:48
Zack
no, I like to be outside when there is sun so I can get vitamin D.
05:52
Tromp
How would the supply cap work?
05:53
Like btc in 100 years?
05:53
How would you ask the market that proposal?
05:53
Zack
I want to do a DAC. what should I do?
05:54
What will you guys pay me to do?
05:56
Tromp
Youtube interview? Would be fun
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
07:55
Eric Arsenault
Zack any thoughts on this? IMO having metrics we think are worth improving to achieve PMF is important.
09:53
Zack
I think I messed up this DAC haha
09:53
We need a guide or something, it is too hard
09:53
I bet the wrong way, and now I am incentivized to not produce the public good.
09:54
Eric Arsenault
😂 hahaha
09:54
That should be easy
09:59
Zack
oh, it still works as a DAC, but now you are paying me not to make a video.
If you think that me making a video would be a public bad, then this is a contract to prevent me from making the video.
10:01
I just deleted the contract from the server
10:04
It is weird trying to think of things to DAC.
Everything I can think of is either something I should already be doing, because I am being paid to work on Amoveo, or else it is a distraction from my work on Amoveo.
10:04
Maybe I should focus on using the DAC to anonymously pay someone to do something
10:05
Eric Arsenault
100%
10:05
This is what I’ve been saying. This will be the case as long as your block reward stays.
10:06
Zack
im all pumped up after watching Hanson's debate again, I wonder if we can do any futarchy markets on whether CEOs get fired like he was talking about.
10:07
Eric Arsenault
Yeah, I also just watched it. Awesome stuff. Makes me think we need more sheep!
10:07
Maybe we can offer longs of shitcoins to their communities 😂
10:08
(Although problem is short term volatility, I wouldn’t want to take that risk in this market)
10:08
Zack
how much veo would be on your side of the channel? maybe they want to use binary options for this?
10:09
Eric Arsenault
If you move in this direction, then it is basically block reward > Zack > DACs that Zack want to fund. In my foundation proposal, it is block reward > foundation > DACs futarchy decides are best.
10:10
Zack
I was thinking of paying someone to upload a book. This is my money I am spending after all.
10:10
Eric Arsenault
Not sure, it’s just an idea I had when I was watching the video. They talk a lot about how “sheep” brings in smart money
10:11
So why not just market to sheep
10:11
I see, not dev related, more tests for PMf
10:12
Why not incentivize dev work?
10:12
Zack
Why should I ?
I already spend all my time on Amoveo, I don't see why I should donate my spending money to the cause.
10:13
Why don't you fund DAC bounties to have stuff built?
10:13
Eric Arsenault
I don’t have much VEO for that
10:14
I guess if you believed that funding a DAC would raise VEO price, you would do it
10:15
I think this is an interesting idea to try. What coins would be a good candidate for this?
10:21
Zack
For that kind of development, they have to propose the project and tie their identity to it.
If I write the spec accurately enough for the DAC to force them to build what we need, that spec would be more difficult to write than what we are asking them to build.
10:22
altcoins are like lotto tickets. most go to zero, and a few increase a lot.
If you only have 1/2 the money in the channel, then they can at most only double their money over the lifetime of the contract.
10:23
Eric Arsenault
Yes. Since most go to zero, but people within those communities don’t know that, they are sheep, and we can be wolves.
10:23
“Click this way for leveraged shitcoins!”
10:25
Zack
I will call you out publicly if I see you selling contracts and not being clear about the terms.
Our reputation as crypto app developers is worth a lot more than whatever you would get from a scam like that anyways.
10:26
Eric Arsenault
I’m not thinking of a scam
10:26
Zack
if the lifetime of the contract is short enough, having only the ability to double might be tolerable for many people
10:26
if they can get their leverage higher
10:27
Like, if they really think their altcoin will go up 10% in the next week, they could be interested in a 10x leveraged contract
10:28
Eric Arsenault
Personally, I would likely only take longer timeframe bets. In the short term, the price of an alt coin could increase a lot. I am more confident in their price going to zero for longer time periods.
10:29
Zack
It doesn't cost anything to make contract offers if no one accepts them. you can make a bunch and post them all on the server
10:31
Eric Arsenault
I know. Does anyone have any good ideas on what coins would be good targets? Augur? 😂 (I wouldn’t take that bet)
10:33
Zack
start by making contracts that are heavily in your favor.
Remember someone accepted my 1:20 bet.
10:39
> if the block reward is below 0.3 veo, return bad. else return the price of USD in VEO.
> if the block reward is above 0.3 veo, return bad. else return the price of USD in VEO.
10:40
it is going to cost $50 to make these oracles
10:40
they should be scalar oracles.
10:43
Eric Arsenault
What is current block reward