Amoveo ♥🧿
25 May 2019
EA
10:45
Eric Arsenault
This is going to be interesting
Z
10:45
Zack
~0.405
10:46
oh, it needs dates in it
10:46
and an expiration date
EA
10:47
Eric Arsenault
Would also be nice to have price when you type these out
10:48
I guess % going to you and miners stays same?
Z
10:48
Zack
expiration at block 73500
> On July 1st at noon GMT time. If the block reward is below 0.3 veo, return bad. else return the price of USD in VEO.
> On July 1st at noon GMT time. If the block reward is above 0.3 veo, return bad. else return the price of USD in VEO.
10:49
In reply to this message
this is just asking about the miner reward, dev part not included.
the dev portion is set in proportion to the miner reward.
10:49
In reply to this message
I don't know what you mean?
10:50
the oracle questions should be literally what I typed. you don't need to insert any price.
T
11:32
Topab
In reply to this message
＋1
11:36
Deleted Account
is it possible to hedge out the risk of staking coins with amoveo? Zack
11:36
i assume it is and think it will be a big thing in the next few years
Z
11:37
Zack
In reply to this message
im not sure what you are asking.
11:37
Deleted Account
let me rephrase
11:40
Seems the space is moving pretty heavily towards the "Staking Economy" with coins like cosmos, polkadot, livepeer, eth going POS, etc. I assume some investors will want to hedge out the risk in owning these tokens so they can only claim their dividends and not be too worried of whether price will go down or up
11:40
i assume something like this can be done with veo?
11:41
in reference to the staking rconomy talking about companies like this https://staked.us.. seems institutional investors are really pushing this narrative for the future
Z
11:41
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/using_oracle.md
we have an example for that. the one that moves inversely to amazon shares
11:42
Deleted Account
thanks, I’ll check it out. would be awesome some sort of service where you choose your coin, the amount you have and offers you a series of prediction markets you can chose from to hedge out the volatility risk
Z
11:43
Zack
you can make a contract with whatever quantities you want, that doesn't mean someone will take the other side.
11:44
Deleted Account
yep
12:08
hehe
Deleted invited Deleted Account
EA
14:04
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
I guess I was just thinking that when sharing these bets with the community, it would be useful to know the price for each bet. Not really relevant at this point though.
Z
14:06
Zack
In reply to this message
Bets do all say the price on them. You can use the otc-listener page to display these details
Mikhail invited Mikhail
M
19:18
Mikhail
In reply to this message
Hello! I Inform. Tried to send veo from your node (http://159.69.59.196:8080/txs.html) and received error txid = ZXJyb3I
Same error in user aplication.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
19:53
Zack
In reply to this message
I do not control that node.
M
19:54
Mikhail
In reply to this message
can you say me working node?
19:56
It is bad to trust the light node from any server. Instead, download it from github https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo
M
19:57
Mikhail
how start it local?
Z
19:59
Zack
I will copy/paste the instructions here for you

To connect to the mainnet with the light node, open src/js/home.html in a browser.
M
19:59
Mikhail
thank you!
20:02
In reply to this message
same... 0.1 VEO successfully sent. txid = ZXJyb3I
maybe i do something wrong...
Z
20:03
Zack
That is the message that the Veo was sent
20:05
I think there is some miscommunication going on here.
There is a Russian channel on discord
M
20:06
Mikhail
txid = ZXJyb3I it's normal ?
20:06
nothing happening after send
Z
20:07
Zack
I thought tx I'd was supposed to be longer.
20:07
It's a normal message.
M
20:07
Mikhail
ZXJyb3I in base64 - error
Z
20:08
Zack
What is the height you synced to in the light node? What is your address? Who are you sending to?
20:08
How much are you sending?
M
20:09
Mikhail
["spend","BFWGEOwD5yZI1wpj2ITcmupHRNZd5SL1kz+O9ZC+NB53AenNCG0ni1I29CHntxbsR5VBJqLr5NN/2WyIXV6Ydwg=",1,60707,"BCQSJdM+OxGqBhnpV9AoIUrNsa240/ZUjwCUT4GgPfqyVetmHkm8zyUq/bt14v5yMPQkhYbJnFvehBdImZI4iVs=",10000000,0]
20:10
send 0.1 for example
20:10
[["height",66970],["total work",14894116991341]]
Z
20:10
Zack
What is your address?
M
20:11
Mikhail
BFWGEOwD5yZI1wpj2ITcmupHRNZd5SL1kz+O9ZC+NB53AenNCG0ni1I29CHntxbsR5VBJqLr5NN/2WyIXV6Ydwg=
Z
20:13
Zack
Can you send a screenshot of the filled out light node form before you click "spend"?
20:15
What is the address that you are sending to?
M
20:15
Mikhail
BCQSJdM+OxGqBhnpV9AoIUrNsa240/ZUjwCUT4GgPfqyVetmHkm8zyUq/bt14v5yMPQkhYbJnFvehBdImZI4iVs=
Z
20:16
Zack
In reply to this message
This is not an existing account in the system.
20:17
You cannot "spend" to an account that does not exist.
20:17
You can create_account to make a new account.
M
20:17
Mikhail
it is exchange
Z
20:18
Zack
Maybe you copy/pasted the exchange address wrong?
Which exchange is this? Maybe the exchange has a bug
OK
20:18
O K
Exchanges usually issue a new address for users
Z
20:19
Zack
In reply to this message
Then why is his light node not generating a create-account tx?
20:19
The light node can spend to new accounts just fine.
OK
20:20
O K
Oh, I think we interpreted that differently
M
20:20
Mikhail
can't add screen here. exchange graviex. same hibtc
OK
20:20
O K
What light node are you spending from?
Z
20:21
Zack
In reply to this message
Do not use graviex! Haha
20:21
Why would you ever send them Veo?
Z
20:21
Zack
You are very lucky it did not work, or graviex would have stolen your Veo
M
20:21
Mikhail
why they are here?
Z
20:22
Zack
I don't control that website.
M
20:22
Mikhail
ouuuu
Z
20:22
Zack
Learn about amoveo here https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
M
20:23
Mikhail
i found that's site on coinmarket
Z
20:23
Zack
I don't control coinmarketcap.
DV
20:24
Denis Voskvitsov
we'll hide graviex from the list until they fix their nodes I guess
M
20:24
Mikhail
ok, i can send veo to hitbtc ?
Z
20:24
Zack
Why not use qtrade?
20:25
Qtrade has been the most reliable for Amoveo
20:25
And they have the most volume of trades
M
20:26
Mikhail
ok, i did not know
20:26
where this information for new user?
Z
20:26
Zack
In reply to this message
A1.exchange and qtrade.io are the only 2 exchanges that I list on the github
20:30
I think the exan tech guys paid to have amoveo listed on a bunch of exchanges, so now they have a sunk cost fallacy, where they feel the need to list exchanges on their website, even if those exchanges aren't good for the users to use.
DV
20:32
Denis Voskvitsov
we have no obligations to exchanges. it's just a list with every exchange supporting amoveo.
since Graviex have issues with it, we'll hide them from the list.
20:34
and regarding the case above. account api endpoint (using proofs) returns the state as if that account was created but has 0 balance. it forces wallets to create spend tx instead of create_account.
Z
20:34
Zack
In reply to this message
This sounds like a bug.
The light node is failing to make create account txs?
DV
20:36
Denis Voskvitsov
yep, just tried on http://139.59.144.76:8080/txs.html
M
20:36
Mikhail
Sorry for your time, but I’ve sent to new wallet qTrade and I get the same error
https://ibb.co/0JYvp0N
DV
20:38
Denis Voskvitsov
AFAIU that's not a bug in lightnode but most probably in fullnode
Z
20:41
Zack
I wonder how long this has been happening, I can't think of any recent change that would cause this
DV
20:47
Denis Voskvitsov
I've been reported the similar issue about a week ago, but didn't manage to find the cause
Z
20:50
Zack
I found the bug
20:50
In reply to this message
I wish you had told me a week ago
20:50
No reason to keep bugs a secret.
20:51
Why do people report bugs in the light node to you instead of to me?
DV
20:53
Denis Voskvitsov
because they used myveowallet and not a light node
we've tried to track down the bug and find the issue with node timeout I've wrote you about
20:53
but now it seems the cause is deeper
Z
20:54
Zack
you wrote to me? when and where?
Maybe I missed an email
DV
20:54
Denis Voskvitsov
it was in telegram, on May 15
we've discussed the issue
Z
20:55
Zack
yes, I see your message now
Z
21:52
Zack
I pushed a fix to the light node repository. a full node needs ./rebar3 upgrade to fix the light node it serves
DV
21:55
Denis Voskvitsov
so you mean behavior of fullnode is correct in this case?
Z
21:56
Zack
In reply to this message
hard to call one "correct" and the other "incorrect".

They were temporarily incompatible, and now they are compatible again.
DV
21:57
Denis Voskvitsov
fix just on the lightnode means every other developer should fix their apps too: 3rd party wallets, exchange software, etc
Z
21:57
Zack
The old version of the api would crash if you tried to look up something that did not exist, and the light node would interpret the crash as if the data did not exist.
This was a bad way of programming it.

Now there is a normal response for non-existent data, and the light node understands this response.
21:59
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/commit/a3d30771821240185470d6caddee60cb925274be
This is a very small change.
Most people who use the api probably wont need to change anything.
DV
22:00
Denis Voskvitsov
every app sending txs is affected, since this is the way they determine what type of tx to use
Z
22:01
Zack
what do you mean "every app"?
Exchanges and mining pools all use full nodes
22:01
this only matters for the light node, right?
DV
22:04
Denis Voskvitsov
exchange use their own software working with fullnode

to create a tx they call account endpoint, which returned "empty" for nonexistent account earlier and now returns ok, 0. so that logic should be fixed. it's small fix indeed, but it should be delivered everywhere (think about those using desktop apps or local lightnodes)
Z
22:05
Zack
ok, it sounds like the best solution is to return "empty" instead of 0.
DV
22:05
Denis Voskvitsov
I'd strongly prefer to return old behavior of this endpoint on fullnode if there's no good reason to break it
22:05
In reply to this message
yes, it does
Z
22:11
Zack
ok, it returns the "empty" message again.
22:11
and I confirmed that the light node can make create_account txs.
DV
22:12
Denis Voskvitsov
great, thanks
will update our fullnodes soon
26 May 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Uriel invited Uriel
Z
07:13
Zack
haha, someone is actually going to pay me 8 veo to make a video
EA
07:14
Eric Arsenault
wow
07:14
did you specify what would be in the video?
Z
07:14
Zack
no, I don't think there is a time limit, or language limit, or anything
EA
07:14
Eric Arsenault
🤦‍♂️
07:15
I would have made you do a video in a speedo or something at least
Z
07:15
Zack
DAC seems to work pretty well
07:15
ever since I released that website, any contract I have made has gotten accepted
07:17
or maybe instead of making the video, I will just give them the 0.8 veo.
Now that I proved that DAC works, I have accomplished what I set out to do.
EA
07:19
Eric Arsenault
I agree DAC can work, I did create one myself. I just don’t think it is effective to fuel an ecosystem. I’d love to be wrong. I will try posting on the site.
Z
07:24
Zack
instead of saying "I want to thank my patreon supporters", I will have to say something like, "I want to thank whoever anonymously accepted the DAC contract to pay me to make this video."
07:24
SMASH that notification button!
07:27
Does anyone have tips on what are important points to get across in the video? Maybe ill look at the white paper for material?
07:33
I think this makes me a professional youtuber.
OK
07:42
O K
In reply to this message
😹
Z
07:46
Zack
im thinking maybe ill find a child, and do a video of me explaining to them about Amoveo?
07:46
or maybe first a child, and then after that an adult.
EA
07:52
Eric Arsenault
That would be cool
07:55
How will you “find a child” haha 🤣
07:55
Be careful
07:56
I once was filming a promo video near a school with kids playing and we got ordered to move by a teacher
07:57
Could also do a live AMA
Z
07:57
Zack
haha, ill ask friends who have children
08:04
every day of telegram is a live AMA
EA
08:04
Eric Arsenault
True
Z
10:12
Zack
There is an issue with the new channel_team_close tx type.
our packer library doesn't know about the ctc2 keys used for it.
10:13
We can't fix packer directly, because some nodes would freeze.
So I think we should do this order of events:
1) mining pools should do a soft fork to block ctc2
2) we fix the packer library.
3) we give everyone a week to update dependencies.
4) we schedule a date to simultaneously turn off the soft fork in all the mining pools.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
12:08
Zack
@Simon3456 @potat_o I pushed a soft fork to master branch. This will disable ctc2 tx types. Once all the mining pools confirm that they have updated, then we can move on to the next step of fixing the packer library.
S
20:51
Sy
👍 i will Update later today
OK
20:51
O K
Same
S
20:51
Sy
My pool is using a spend post vs fullnode which was still working
20:52
Fyi 😁
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
21:57
Zack
I'm thinking I'll do a video in Spanish just focused on dac. There are a lot of Latin Americans who are interested in finding ways to do Internet jobs for Anglo americans and Europeans. Trust is often the limiting factor in preventing these jobs from happening.
22:05
Maybe if a blockchain developer tells them in their own language "I am here to help you make money online." It would make amoveo stand out.
T
22:14
Tromp
In reply to this message
Si por favor
27 May 2019
JS
00:11
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
You can speak Spanish?
Z
00:12
Zack
not very well, but I think I can get the basic idea of a dac across.
T
00:48
Tromp
In reply to this message
If you need help with the spanish let me know
01:01
Deleted Account
Hey everyone
JS
01:42
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
👍
OK
02:24
O K
In reply to this message
😍
Deleted invited Deleted Account
06:23
2) If You Build it, They Won’t Come


The blockchain industry consists of some of the most talented technical and visionary minds in the world. However, despite this, most average consumers haven’t experienced a blockchain application or used the currencies built on top of it.
EA
06:24
Eric Arsenault
100%
TG
08:32
Toby Ganger
if only Zack understood this…sigh
Z
08:42
Zack
> The building behind BOMB wasn’t intensive or complex at all, just a few dozen lines of code in solidity
ani invited ani
Z
12:44
Zack
Probabilistic payments would be great for scalability of the lightning network.
We could connect channel hubs together for longer lightning payments. So you could move your money from a channel with one derivatives hub to a channel with a different hub without any on-chain tx. Instantly.

Maybe if you get tired of a hub that is specialized in football, and you want to do political bets.
12:53
It would mean we have the most advanced channel payment network, on top of having the best channel smart contract platform.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
19:47
Zack have you evaluated?
Z
20:00
Zack
In reply to this message
I'm not going to waste time evaluating voting protocols. They can not work.
AK
20:07
A K
ppl still mostly use "vote" even in schemes a la amoveo
20:08
it can be misleading
20:08
anyway, i'm only asking cos Vitalik backed them
20:08
i agree democratic voting can't work for blockchains
Z
20:23
Zack
I read the rest of Moloch.
This is a voting protocol where people have the option to take their money out if they don't like the result of the vote.
This makes the contract pointless.

If you can voluntarily take your money out after, then it is no different from voluntarily deciding to spend your money the same way that your friends voted to spend theirs.
There is no reason to put your money inside of the contract in the first place. you could just vote with friends, and then decide whether to spend your money or not on what your friends voted for.
20:24
regardless of your ability to take your money out, that doesn't mean moloch's vote will make good decisions.

So it isn't a good protocol for making decisions, or for spending money.
The only aspect with economic significance is that you have to pay 10 eth to join moloch.
AK
20:28
A K
👌🏻
21:30
Deleted Account
i'm curious how it feels for zack for his competitors to be really successful in this market (aeternity, and chainlink), while VEO sits at 1% of chainlink's market cap
k
21:31
kdmlll
Probably good for sleep
Z
21:31
Zack
the derivatives market is measured in trillions of dollars. Even if we were the size of bitcoin, I would say we have not yet succeeded.
21:31
Deleted Account
lol
21:31
then how come you always compare veo to chainlink or aeternity
21:32
and also ethereum is already basically the financial decentralized platform
Z
21:32
Zack
Using concrete examples like other blockchains is a useful way to help people understand how oracle protocols work, and what makes a good oracle.
21:33
Investors and programmers alike have been interested in my reviews of the different oracles. It brings attention to Amoveo, and helps people to learn. It doesn't take a lot of time on my part.
So I think it is useful to post some reviews.
21:34
Deleted Account
well its clear that investors haven't had much faith in the project these days
21:34
just look at the rest of the market and look at veo
Z
21:36
Zack
for example the komodo dev used ideas from my comparisons when designing his new oracle system.

Sparking healthy debate between projects is a good way to spread the fruits of our research, and to get rid of commonly held misconceptions.
21:36
Deleted Account
all that is needed is capped supply. and I have 2 perspectives on it:

1) you are truly a "product guy" in which case it may help to realize that market cap "creates" the product as it did for many successful coins

2) incentive misalignment (aka greed) in wanting to get more VEOs through dev reward. In this case you should realize that your dev reward will be MAGNITUDES higher if you create the capped supply during this bull market. if you miss this market and it's followed by another quick crash, you've lost a huge stockpile of capital reserves for the next bear market
21:37
or maybe a mix of both, or that not enough considerations was made at the beginning and now there's inertia again'st changing
T
21:37
The Ancients
No point in discussing this with Zack... He doesn't realize crypto is built on a strong community supporting his ideas
21:38
Deleted Account
yeah it's just a waste to the extreme
T
21:38
The Ancients
its pretty much ded and has been for over a year
21:38
Deleted Account
i'm going to start selling my veos now, it's clear he has no strategy and no plans for this bull market
Z
21:39
Zack
I get a larger portion of the tokens if we reduce the supply or make a cap.
21:39
Deleted Account
it's a pity because i thought he was strategic enough to realize that it's massively optimal (aka can overtake chainlink or aeternity in a matter of weeks) to create a pump (aka announce capped supply) prior to bull run, but it's clear that he's in a world of his own.
k
21:40
kdmlll
This kind of so called 'community' is just a talk shop.
Z
21:40
Zack
Decisions in Amoveo are controlled by futarchy.
If we use futarchy to agree on a cap today, then we could just use futarchy to change that cap in the future.
T
21:40
The Ancients
capped supply annoucement won't do anything
21:40
Deleted Account
lol its obviously not controlled by "futarchy" or whatever buzzwords you have in mind
Z
21:40
Zack
It is kind of like that athiest argument:
"If god is all-powerful, can he make an object so immovable that even he can't move it?"
21:40
Deleted Account
you should read on nick szabo's in depth conversation about futarchy with robin hanson, it's clear that it's not a real working system
21:40
you're truly in a world of your own
T
21:40
The Ancients
This community is Zack and about 5-7 people.
21:41
Deleted Account
lol seems like it
T
21:41
The Ancients
Just scroll up for over a year
21:41
Deleted Account
and even if it does work, you need to prove it works, that only happens when your market cap is high enough to engage users
21:41
it's not the other way as you might imagine that a working product brings users, it's market cap that brings attention that brings users
k
21:41
kdmlll
Its good that there is a core of dedicated persons interested in this project.
21:41
Deleted Account
i've seen it with eth buying the ico at 30 cents
21:42
i'm interested but basically lost faith. there's a lot of case history of this. primecoin, grin for example
Z
21:42
Zack
Amoveo is a high risk project, there is no guarantee of success.
21:42
If you think that futarchy and prediction markets don't work, I can't understand why you would invest in Amoveo. This project is probably not for you.
21:42
Deleted Account
without a capped supply good ideas just slowly fade over many years. primecoin used to be the biggest hype of the day like "futarchy" but over 6 years the inflation issue caused it to remain at around amoveo's market cap
21:43
i'm investing because i thought you were not that stubborn to realize that market cap is important
21:43
now i'm starting to sell
T
21:43
The Ancients
its also because how profitable Veo is for f1 miners
21:43
Deleted Account
there are better opportunities out there
T
21:43
The Ancients
nothing is done about that 👀
Z
21:44
Zack
The block reward is controlled by futarchy.
Whatever my ideas are about a cap being good or not has nothing to do with it.
21:44
Deleted Account
yeah miners just dumping all day, this is dumb at this point, i'm out
21:44
i've heard enough from zack and it's clear that something isn't processing there
S
21:44
Sy
are you guys done with your monolog?
21:44
or will something usefull come out of this?
21:44
Deleted Account
you can be genius all day in dev, but in the end of the day this is a speculative market where sane supply is needed
k
21:45
kdmlll
If you think you can do better then make your own fork and do your 'pumps'
21:45
Deleted Account
no need for monolog, the market will speak for itself when all the core investors dump
Z
21:45
Zack
here are some futarchy oracles you can make if you want to make a proposal to reduce the block reward:

> On July 1st at noon GMT time. If the block reward is below 0.3 veo, return bad. else return the price of USD in VEO.
> On July 1st at noon GMT time. If the block reward is above 0.3 veo, return bad. else return the price of USD in VEO.
21:45
Deleted Account
lol why dont you make it
21:46
i don't want to waste dumping my VEOs
k
21:46
kdmlll
Plz market sell to 0.006
21:46
Deleted Account
lol no im not that dumb, ill just sell at mid-ask to ask price
21:47
probably will have to a bit lower since theres no buyers at this point
21:47
and if you're a buyer at this price it's stupid lol, you realize you'll be dumped on by miners for the next few years until zack comes to his senses
21:48
also i dont need a fork, i just need to buy other altcoins that are more sane. and i've done a good job on it
Z
21:48
Zack
With futarchy Amoveo doesn't depend on the senses of any one person.
Anyone can propose changes at any time, and if they are beneficial, they get included.
21:48
Deleted Account
LOL
T
21:49
The Ancients
13) Code is Replicable, Community is Not
​

One mission of BOMB from the beginning was to hopefully provide a financial case study for other people to learn from and implement into their own tokenomic structure.

We anticipated and expected others to do this. But, what we did not expect is the number of exact copy cats that would arise of the first weeks. At this time on Etherscan, there are more than five other replicas of BOMB that people created.

While we were originally discouraged at others attempting to directly imitate our project, we quickly learned that what made BOMB special was no the code, but the community of people around what we were creating.

You can copy code, but you can’t copy a community.
21:49
from that thread i linked earlier
21:49
Deleted Account
yeah exactly theres no community here
T
21:50
The Ancients
yea i know that
21:50
:(
21:50
Deleted Account
and the reason is no other than no capped supply. same with grin project. people thought there would be community around idea, but without sanity and profits there cannot be any community, which zack doesn't understand lol
MF
21:51
Mr Flintstone
are you willing to long veo conditional on a capped supply update being merged? you can put your money where your mouth is
21:51
Deleted Account
of course I am
MF
21:51
Mr Flintstone
this is how futarchy works
21:51
Deleted Account
but it needs to be changed first
21:51
LOL
MF
21:51
Mr Flintstone
no, it doesn’t have to be changed
21:51
first
21:51
it is a conditional bet
21:51
Deleted Account
but the point is I don't care what futarchy is and it's never been proven tow rok
MF
21:51
Mr Flintstone
and you can short conditional on it not being merged
21:51
Deleted Account
There's no reasonable basis to believe that futarchy works, until it works
21:52
this is so dumb lol
MF
21:52
Mr Flintstone
futarchy is just using market prices for decisions. if it doesn’t work markets don’t work
21:52
Deleted Account
clearly the core community supporters are also not that bright lol
MF
21:52
Mr Flintstone
it is really that simple
Z
21:52
Zack
In reply to this message
he is a troll right?
Even if he owns veo, this still seems like a troll.
MF
21:52
Mr Flintstone
no he’s just frustrated
21:52
Deleted Account
lol jesus
T
21:53
The Ancients
How is it a troll when thats how almost everyone feels about the project lol u read it on twitter Zack
21:53
You're in denial now
21:53
Deleted Account
lol what kind of troll is on the top 10 rich list of veo
Z
21:53
Zack
why would someone buy veo if they think prediction markets do not work?
21:53
Deleted Account
ok whatever this is really dumb
Z
21:53
Zack
you never signed a message to prove that, it is just something you claimed.
21:53
Deleted Account
i bought eth at 30 cents and didn't understand how it works either, nor did I care
21:53
i signed a long time ago
21:53
nor will it change your mind
21:53
remember I was the miner guy that you didn't believe
Z
21:53
Zack
In reply to this message
you never sent me a signature. now it seems you are lying.
I really think this is a troll guys.
21:54
Deleted Account
lol..
21:54
i sent you 1 VEO that day
21:54
whatever this project is dumb at this point lol
Z
21:55
Zack
my earliest PM with you is May 15th.
21:59
Deleted Account
doesn't matter signing won't change the course of this project
22:01
if anyone wants to buy bulk VEO off me between the ask/bid price midway please message me
Z
22:03
Zack
I doubt he has Veo, he is probably going to steal any BTC/ETH you send him.
T
22:03
Tromp
I do think a higher market cap will benefit atrention to the project
T
22:06
The Ancients
i should of bought chainlink instead lol
22:06
RIP too me
D
22:06
Denis
In reply to this message
GL with that, you'll need it
AK
22:07
A K
there's no existing gov oracle in veo to force fixed supply, though?
MF
22:07
Mr Flintstone
yeah, it would be a software update
AK
22:07
A K
best on can do is lower block reward to almost 0, and that can be overturned potentially
Z
22:07
Zack
If we can use futarchy to update the software, then we can use futarchy to change any cap that we impose on ourselves.
AK
22:08
A K
@Abc867 you can just create an oracle to lower block reward
22:08
or pay someone to do that )
T
22:11
Tromp
If we want a strong community we are going to need hype, more exchanges and price increase. Im not sure how we can achieve that with futarchy.
AK
22:11
A K
the idea is that if what you're saying is true, ppl would create markets to adjust parameters accordingly
22:12
or create DACs to fund exchange listing, pay for some shitty influencers etc )
22:12
obviously that doesn't happen much... or at all )
Z
22:12
Zack
It is a lot easier to DAC now that the market website is set up. Someone even paid me to make that video.
AK
22:13
A K
i'm surprised inflation is not pushed to 0, why is everyone sponsoring FPGA miners is beyond my comprehension
k
22:13
kdmlll
You could make a DAC for creating hype. It's a public good after all
Z
22:13
Zack
If you have an idea of something you want to raise money for, I think it is worth trying out at this point
MF
22:13
Mr Flintstone
if you know what software updates have an impact on price of veo, this is arguably the hardest part of the process
22:13
Deleted Account
lol we dont need anything other than a capped supply
AK
22:14
A K
@Abc867 almost 0 inflation rate is achievable right now
22:14
Deleted Account
whatever lol this is just beyond stubborn if zack can't understand this
T
22:14
Tromp
In reply to this message
Im not sure better software is better price in this market
MF
22:15
Mr Flintstone
if you really think that a capped supply update is the only material thing that drives veo price in the short term , put your money where your mouth is before it happens
22:15
Deleted Account
just pick something random, and give half to early supporters, like double the max supply and inflate it on a halvening schedule like bitcoin
MF
22:15
Mr Flintstone
long veo on the version with the update, short veo on the version without it
22:15
it isn’t that complicated
22:15
you can do this before the update happens or not
22:15
Deleted Account
lol thats not how it works
22:16
futarchy *might* work if the initial conditions are such that the distribution is truly fair ( 100% mined with no dev reward) but zack can veto anything
22:16
so futarchy with correct initial conditions may not even work, a fake futarchy with initial conditions that allow for veto definitely do not
MF
22:17
Mr Flintstone
he can’t veto it. if he longs veo on the chain without the update, and the update doesn’t go through he can’t force the market price of veo to go up
22:17
what is he gonna go to qtrade and pump veo with his btc
22:17
Deleted Account
lol seems like even the admin is as stubborn, this project is just gonna sit dead for a while lol
Z
22:17
Zack
I only have 1/6th
And anyway, making bad bets in a prediction market is very costly. even if I had the majority, I could only force the decision one time until I lost so much money that I would no longer have the majority.
22:17
Deleted Account
the market will speak louder than words, as it has shown with chainlink and aeternity, no point arguing at this point, i already tried to reason
22:18
if its a true working futarchy it would already be higher
EA
22:18
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
I’m happy to help you create a futarchy market for this in Amoveo
22:18
Deleted Account
after all futarchy is based on the belief that markets work
MF
22:18
Mr Flintstone
I am trying to help you understand why zack can’t force a market to go to a certain price without burning his own money
22:18
it doesn’t matter how much money he has
EA
22:18
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
👆
22:18
Deleted Account
the point is zack's "futarchy" doesn't work, since if it did the market would already have priced it in
T
22:19
The Ancients
Zack controls this so called "Futarchy" market btw
22:19
Deleted Account
so clearly it doesn't work, something like chainlink and aeternity are the real prediction markets according to the market. proof by contradiction.
T
22:19
The Ancients
Last time someone tried to manuever Amoveo in their own direction via Futarchy
22:19
Zack threatend to quit the project or fork it
MF
22:19
Mr Flintstone
that wasn’t futarchy though
T
22:19
The Ancients
lol remember that? 😂
MF
22:20
Mr Flintstone
futarchy is using market prices to make decisions
J
22:20
JOHNwick3's dog
In reply to this message
Honestly dude, to invest in amoveo is to invest in the idea that futarchy works. If you have an issue with this.. no other commenting is needed just sell right?

Other criticism of the project is a waste of time if you don't agree with futarchy right? lol
T
22:20
The Ancients
People who are his biggest followers were critizing him in private
22:20
they are still here yip yapping
MF
22:21
Mr Flintstone
I think this is a good opportunity to demonstrate that markets can be good for decisions, especially controversial ones like this
T
22:21
The Ancients
saving face
22:21
Deleted Account
1) futarchy / prediction markets are valuable by emperical analysis (aeternity / chainlink). 2) futarchy works because markets work.
3) if zack had a working futarchy, then by emperical analysis it should have already been at least the market cap of the other coins that zack resents
4) because the market says it is not valuable, hence zack DOES NOT have a working futarchy
5) QED
22:21
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
if you are not a troll, i am willing to get all of your VEO via escrow. I have a friend who is looking for 1k VEO, we can use zack as escrow. Make it easy and take them off your hands 👍
Z
22:21
Zack
Regardless of whether the tech works, we can't responsibly achieve price gains until we have product market fit.
If we aren't satisfying any customer needs, then the market is correct to evaluate the price of VEO as low.
22:21
In reply to this message
good point
22:22
Deleted Account
my point is
22:22
Deleted Account
@Abc867 we can set escrow through Zack, 0.01 seems fair. I'd have to talk with my friend to coordinate the funds if you're willing. Probably by Wednesday.
Z
22:22
Zack
In reply to this message
I don't do escrow any more.
22:22
Deleted Account
we can't achieve product market fit UNTIL market cap is higher
k
22:22
kdmlll
What's stupid is to buy into a project that you fundamentally dont believe in. And what's distasteful is the short sighted greed for profit.
Z
22:22
Zack
I heard good things about bitrated
T
22:22
Tromp
In reply to this message
I think this is a fair point
T
22:22
The Ancients
then i guess you can call the whole market relatively stupid @cpryt
22:22
because crypto is a speculative market
22:22
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
👍I'll check it out.
T
22:23
The Ancients
who wada thunk? right
22:23
Deleted Account
yeah please listen to tromp, he's a pretty smart dude am i not right
22:23
i think he built a lot of miners
22:23
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
do you have a response to my offer?
22:23
Deleted Account
it's easy with markets to misunderstand causality
22:24
just make your buy orders on qtrade and ill dump
22:24
at haflway point
22:24
Deleted Account
my friend prefers OTC over qtrade.
22:24
Deleted Account
yeah .01 seems fair
22:24
sorry i only do qtrade, too many scammers, dont want to waste my time
Z
22:24
Zack
One great thing about having a culture where futarchy is the default, is that the refusal to use futarchy to settle a decision makes it clear to your listeners that you don't actually believe what you are saying.
22:25
Deleted Account
ok, we can figure it out
EA
22:25
Eric Arsenault
I think we should just create the futarchy market for capped supply. Even if we can change it, if that is the most valuable thing for VEO, this is what we will do.
22:25
Deleted Account
yeah just put orders on qtrade its the highest volume exchange
22:25
Deleted Account
but to make sure you aren't trolling. going to send you .01 VEO from a wallet to the address you claim to own is yours, just send it back
EA
22:25
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Buy high sell low
22:25
Deleted Account
what is the address again? @Abc867
22:25
Deleted Account
the problem is zack doesn't want to change it. and enough about this "oh wow futarchy" will solve it. it clearly isn't futarchy as I mentioned in my proof above
T
22:26
Tromp
Naa, i just studied marketing
22:26
Deleted Account
not going to post it but it has a bit over 1000 veos
22:26
Deleted Account
?
T
22:26
Tromp
Marketing itself is more important than the product
22:26
Deleted Account
i need proof the address is yours
22:26
otherwise I'm wasting my time
k
22:26
kdmlll
Lol this guy
22:26
Deleted Account
address won't prove anything
k
22:27
kdmlll
Just hot air
22:27
Deleted Account
you are clearly a troll.
EA
22:28
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Markets are not always rational, particularly crypto
22:29
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
But futarchy depends on rational markets
22:30
so by your logic, then futarchy cannot be relied on to work since markets are not always rational
MF
22:30
Mr Flintstone
if you proved that price of veo would probably go up a lot after merging the update zack wouldn’t have a choice but to merge it
AK
22:30
A K
futarchy is not without flaws
22:30
like markets
22:30
whole reasoning is that futarchy is better than alternatives
22:30
just that
MF
22:30
Mr Flintstone
if he doesn’t update it, then you profit because you’re shorting veo without the update
22:31
Deleted Account
the few core supporters here are too stubborn, just going to dump this thing when bid orders come up
22:32
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
you don't have 1k
22:32
you probably mad you're down $300 on your $500 investment hehe
22:33
stop attacking the community/chat :)
T
22:34
The Ancients
u mean the 5 same ppl for over the last 1 year? @bitbrih
22:34
😎
JS
22:35
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Count me as the Sixth Man🤟🏿
AK
22:37
A K
we'll need an oracle for that
Z
22:39
Zack
> On July 1st at noon GMT time. If the block reward is below 0.3 veo, return bad. else return the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.04
> On July 1st at noon GMT time. If the block reward is above 0.3 veo, return bad. else return the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.04
22:39
I think we should lower the cost of making oracles
22:40
oh, a fixed supply update
22:40
> On July 1st at noon GMT time. If the block reward is set by a fixed supply schedule, return bad. else return the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.04
> On July 1st at noon GMT time. If the block reward is not set by a fixed supply schedule, return bad. else return the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.04
EA
22:44
Eric Arsenault
Great
22:45
Maybe it helps from a marketing perspective
22:45
Even though it’s just window dressing
22:46
Maybe fixed supply will win. @Abc867 lmk if you want me to help set this up
T
23:10
Tromp
We could do a dac to get Zack to sign the binance forms? What do you think Zack ?
EA
23:11
Eric Arsenault
to list on binance??
T
23:12
Tromp
Yeah
23:12
We dont have to pay listing fee, just solicit and see if they like the project
AK
23:19
A K
anyone can sign - Binance wants a CEO - there's no CEO in Amoveo )
T
23:24
Tromp
In reply to this message
Dev or ceo
23:24
We have a dev
23:27
I think a dac could be a good way to motivate zack, its a simple signature
23:27
More liquidity is better for the markets and the community
EA
23:31
Eric Arsenault
I don't think we are ready for Binance with the number of hard forks we are doing. Are we still on Hitbtc?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
A
23:48
AAA
In reply to this message
+++
T
23:52
The Ancients
coin is more ready for teh trashcan than binance
23:52
🤷‍♂️
Deleted invited Deleted Account
23:54
Deleted Account
Hi everyone,
23:54
Max supply??
AK
23:55
A K
😅
I
23:55
Instinct
In reply to this message
Lol
EA
23:59
Eric Arsenault
😂
28 May 2019
I
00:05
Instinct
In reply to this message
There is none set right now but can be decided by futarchy governance
Z
00:28
Zack
@denis_voskvitsov
Keeping the API the way you want it is making everything else break.
We can't have an api request that returns data that isn't validly packed according to the amoveo packer, otherwise it crashes any software that uses the amoveo packer to unpack the request.
DV
00:31
Denis Voskvitsov
well, it worked before.

ok, I got it. we'll update our apps soon. hope other developers are here too.
Z
00:33
Zack
I think maybe before we were looking up accounts in merkel trees differently from everything else, so only accounts would crash it if was empty when you looked it up.
Now we are looking up everything the same way, so when I change accounts back, it breaks looking up oracles and channels.
EA
00:40
Eric Arsenault
New bet added to the explorer: http://139.59.144.76:8090/main.html
01:52
Deleted Account
He said Amoveo has no Community 🤦🏻‍♂️
01:53
He is right. No dumb spam Community. Just effective discussions Chat and enough supporters with a brain for projects like this. No marketing farter scam Pump & Dump.
01:54
No need to pump the price to make the project lucrative. It will get lucrative itself
01:55
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
🙏
01:55
Deleted Account
We have a low 24h Volume because many people just hold and believe in Zack and the Project
01:58
And shaky impatient hands just dump sometimes because the 24h Volume is low and the Price dumbs for some time, till some investors are buying in already. When it will adapt soon in the next year's, Amoveo will fly.
I
02:06
Instinct
In reply to this message
💯
Emänüél 🇧🇷 invited Emänüél 🇧🇷
T
03:06
The Ancients
nice cope W
T
05:04
Tromp
Is there something wrong with veoscan?
05:04
Same address gives two different balances on veoscan and on veopool explorer
Z
05:04
Zack
What address?
05:05
Use the light node to be sure.
T
05:05
Tromp
Let me see
05:08
Light node not opening
05:13
It opens for me
05:13
What address?
Z
06:29
Zack
In reply to this message
I was wrong.
It should be returning "empty" not 0.
Sorry for all the confusion.
Z
06:50
Zack
In reply to this message
I was wrong again. "empty" can't work. we have to switch to 0. haha.
T
07:30
Tromp
In reply to this message
It already worked thx
Z
07:30
Zack
great
G
07:33
GAhmetO
Hello everyone! There is a tweet
07:34
About $VEO on OKEX
07:34
Is it right?
08:28
Deleted Account
he is just speculating @Umutku2
EA
08:36
Eric Arsenault
tic toc http://139.59.144.76:8090/main.html
08:39
I've been thinking about spending some time doing market research for Amoveo. Trying to find use cases and getting "real" people to place bets on Amoveo to solve problems. Would anyone be interested in placing a DAC bet for this?
JS
08:48
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Based on the unenthusiastic reaction from this group, one can tell this is not a pump dump project
EA
10:11
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Can I get community opinion: are you not betting because you don’t think the DAC is important? Do you think it will affect VEO price? You’d rather just hold??? Please give some feedback
JS
10:27
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
You meant using DAC to fund you to do market research to find PMF?
EA
10:31
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
I was talking about this one, but yeah, also the PMF
SS
10:37
Spike Spiegel
"Please give some feedback"

Interface hard to use, I'm used to Metamask and quite polished Dapps with intuitive onboarding
EA
10:37
Eric Arsenault
?!
10:38
Have you tried http://34.212.130.136:8080/ to place any bets?
10:38
This is easier than metamask
10:39
(Some Dapps do have nice onboarding I do admit)
10:39
But it's getting close. In my mind: we can update mobile, then get another DAC to really streamline the onboarding process and make it dummy free
10:40
But, we need community interest to get there
S
11:29
S S
The cricket world cup is starting on 30 . Largest bets placed on any sport after football . Just saying maybe use it and publicise it
11:30
Football = foot ball = not the american thing = soccer
11:30
Also when on twitter
EA
11:33
Eric Arsenault
Great idea
11:33
How about I place a DAC bet with someone about whether or not I can get at least 6 people to place soccer bets on Amoveo
T
13:22
Topab
Interesting stable coin that looks at price every 24 hours https://www.ampleforth.org/. They could use Amoveo for that
T
14:28
The Ancients
wacko zacko taking on multi million dollar companies with no funding
S
15:11
Sebsebzen
Hahahaha
S
15:33
Sy
In reply to this message
Keep it civilised please, we dont tell you what we think about you either...
S
16:54
Sy
in case no one noticed, there is an active block reward oracle right now...
http://explorer.veopool.pw/index.php?input=wRNdrKH8o/qgZHb2d6O+1LlVb36WTQOdeI0Q+3YJUoY=
16:55
i think ill setup a telegram bot that broadcasts new governance oracles...
17:59
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
💪👍
Z
18:12
Zack
In reply to this message
Haha
A currency that keeps re-labeling itself, so you never know how many coins you have. You just know how many dollars your coins are worth.

It is a feature that only adds confusion. A mis-feature.
18:13
In reply to this message
Wow, I did not see that coming. I thought it would have appeared on the website I made
18:14
Not that I against lowering the block reward, but I wish whoever did this made a futarchy market about it first.
Christopher Webb invited Christopher Webb
S
18:28
Sy
better ask in discord @chishiki_hokkaido
https://discord.gg/tsYmwR
CW
18:28
Christopher Webb
Thanks!
Deleted invited Deleted Account
18:36
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
How do you think it will adapt and when?

There is no inflation, right? 65156 is the maximum supply right?
Z
18:37
Zack
In reply to this message
Amoveo is a POW blockchain with a reward for miners. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
18:46
Deleted Account
Jep, I know that, thanks. But what will be the max supply?

And, is there any hardware Wallet support? Where can I store Amoveo?
AK
18:47
A K
no max supply, like ETH
18:47
inflation rate adjustable via futarchy
Z
18:47
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo
Use the light node
18:47
Deleted Account
Ok. So right now we have circulating how many and how many (approximately) will be added each year?
AK
18:47
A K
hw wallet - I think @denis_voskvitsov is working on Ledger support
18:49
65156 minus c.1800 burned coins so 63K circulating
18:49
Deleted Account
What us the "light node"?

If I dont have a safe option to store for years, which I also understand easily, I cant invest.
AK
18:49
A K
inflation right now c. 70 VEO per day
18:49
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Thanks!
AK
18:49
A K
In reply to this message
you can use light node offline to generate keys and keep offline
18:49
it's basically a html page
18:49
Deleted Account
Thanks again. Is there a step by step guide?

Html page? Hmm.. dont feel very comfortable with that.
18:50
Ledger support would be great.
18:50
But we dont know yet when and if this would come right?
AK
18:50
A K
if it's offline it's 100% safe, you basically only need it do generate the priv key
18:50
In reply to this message
no definite ETA was shared
18:51
Deleted Account
Amoveo did an ICO or not?
Z
18:52
Zack
In reply to this message
No ico.
18:53
In reply to this message
Please don't invest if you don't understand the goals of amoveo.
k
18:53
kdmlll
What were the coins burned for? Is there a 0xdead kind of address?
Z
18:54
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes, dead address.
They were created from a bug, and then burned.
k
18:54
kdmlll
Oh i see. Thanks
S
18:55
Sy
if the reward reduction goes through we are at 0.40461210 * 0.666 right?
18:55
0.296 per block
Z
18:55
Zack
In reply to this message
Right
S
18:56
Sy
lets wait and see but i guess this one will pass
k
19:00
kdmlll
Is anyone in a position to be incentivised _not_ to reduce the blocksize? I cant think of any. If that is true, wouldnt the reward keep diminishing over time?
19:00
Block reward i mean
Z
19:02
Zack
The purpose of mining is distribute new coins so the network can grow.
If a protocol gets its value from network effects, then we will be more valuable with a bigger network.
19:02
Too high a block reward is bad for the price, and too low is bad for the price as well.
AK
19:02
A K
the ones who mine could also buy form early adopters
19:02
monero, eth have much lower inflation, and get by just fine
Z
19:02
Zack
In reply to this message
That doesn't make the network grow, it just changes hands.
AK
19:03
A K
it does of course
19:03
if you want to use veo, you can either mine or buy it
k
19:03
kdmlll
What i mean is this looks like a set up where block reward will keep decreasing, because every time this is voted on, it will pass.
AK
19:03
A K
mining = buying with electricity
19:03
that's it
k
19:03
kdmlll
I'm not saying it is good or bad, just looks like a one way street with no equilibrium
T
19:04
Tromp
In reply to this message
If veo is divisible by a lot then how does this work. You dont need to push supply if network effecrs derive from speculation and price rising
AK
19:04
A K
the USD inflow is the same, the network headcount increase is the same, only diff is whether 1) inflation keeps price low or 2) demand pumps the price a bit
Z
19:04
Zack
Eth block reward is millions of dollars per day.
Amoveo's is probably less than $10 thousand.
AK
19:05
A K
yeah and how's that relevant to network growth?
19:05
you mentioned nothing re security
T
19:05
Tromp
I see a lot of people treat cryptoassets like normal currencies, if these currencies are extremly divisible then supply shouldnt be needed to promote network effects i believe
Z
19:05
Zack
Block reward makes security as a side effect. True purpose is to distribute new tokens
AK
19:06
A K
so if it's a side effect let's disregard it in this analysis )
19:06
for me security is the main effect btw
Z
19:06
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes exactly
AK
19:06
A K
but to say that every holder of Veo spends 50% of holdings to grow the network every year
19:06
doesn't make a strong argument for any inflation
19:06
via this logic, every holder indded should bet inflation = 0
Z
19:07
Zack
In reply to this message
I'm not motivated to help you learn.
AK
19:07
A K
yeah yeah i figured there's only one smart guy in this chat ) no biggie
Z
19:07
Zack
In reply to this message
Try making a futarchy market for that, if you feel that way
AK
19:07
A K
let's see how the oracle resolves
Z
19:08
Zack
In reply to this message
The Oracle is being run without any futarchy, we won't learn anything useful from it.
k
19:09
kdmlll
What i meant by my comment was that block reward will tend towards 0, and we would eventually have the 0 inflation you mention. Unless anyone knows of a group incentivised to increase higher bkock reward.
T
19:09
Tromp
At some point we should care for some security so we as holders would be incentivized to keep the network running
Z
19:10
Zack
In reply to this message
We want the price of Veo to be higher.
To maximize the price of Veo, there is some ideal block reward. The ideal is above zero, because zero fails to take advantage of network effects from growth.
k
19:11
kdmlll
I know that as a group this is true, but would holders be able to coordinate to benefit the coin rather than defect and walk away with money?
19:11
I am imagining a tragedy of the commons situation.
Z
19:12
Zack
We use futarchy to make decisions to optimize the value of a Veo.

I'm not sure what you mean by "defect and walk away".
I can't see how tragedy of the Commons matter for this situation.
T
19:13
Tromp
Is someone pushing a lower reward right now?
k
19:13
kdmlll
Yeah, that is what prompted my thought
AK
19:14
A K
there's no tragedy of commons - only Veo holders can affect block reward
19:14
that's the great thing about futarchy
19:14
Deleted Account
Is there a way to see the top 100 VEO holders?
AK
19:15
A K
not so great thing is that it has been never used to adjust block reward afaik, someone just creates on oracle and boom it's done
19:15
AAAA... is the burn address - irrecoverable
k
19:16
kdmlll
Oh cool i was just wondering which was the burn address
Z
19:16
Zack
In reply to this message
Futarchy is working working a lot better now. We used it for hard update 17.
I think we can start using it for block reward update now too.
AK
19:16
A K
yeah but it seems ppl are fine with creating oracles
Z
19:17
Zack
In reply to this message
I guess we should block the Oracle from settling until a futarchy market is done.

It is tough because there are less than 24 hours left. I didn't notice the update soon enough.
19:18
We can do a futarchy market afterwards to see if we should change it back
19:18
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Thanks. There are a lot holders with 1000+ VEO. Are these all miners or people who bought in?
AK
19:18
A K
In reply to this message
biggest acc is Zack's dev reward (fully unlocked already)
19:19
2500 is HitBTC cold storage, it seems
19:19
than there's qtrade somewhere in top10
19:20
Deleted Account
So Zack has close to 11k right? Fully unlocked already? Why?
AK
19:20
A K
it's been 1 year since launch
19:20
happened by design
19:21
Deleted Account
Ok. Is there any price discussion chat or is there a price target by zack for EOY 2019 and 2020?

I saw that the rewards were always with regards to securing network growth and token price increase.
AK
19:22
A K
In reply to this message
there is a channel in Discord
19:22
Deleted Account
Link?
19:22
more links in pinned message
19:32
Deleted Account
Thanks.
S
19:32
Sy
ah reading this, i should do a toplist aswell...
19:32
im updating the explorer anyway....
AK
19:33
A K
with comments please ) a la etherscan
19:33
Disqus or smth
S
19:33
Sy
yeah ill add lables if known
19:34
just reparsing all blocks to see if my changes are good xD
Z
19:35
Zack
In reply to this message
Locking the dev reward for a time was great for tax planning purposes.
Otherwise I would have had to sell something like 30% of my Veo for taxes.
19:42
Deleted Account
Ok. Got it. You deserve it anyway.
T
19:56
Tromp
In reply to this message
F*ck taxes my friend
Z
19:57
Zack
https://twitter.com/fnietom/status/1133337234982297600
A cool idea to make our scalar oracles more powerful
20:09
maybe this could be our third oracle type.
scientific notation oracles.
Asindu invited Asindu
B
20:34
Ben
what are the steps to update an old fullnode?
B
20:37
Ben
thx
S
20:37
Sy
copy out keys.db, clone a fesh one...its way easier
20:37
you have to resync anyway
B
20:47
Ben
yeah, update did not work.
Z
20:48
Zack
you can do a fresh clone like Sy says, or do make prod-clean while the node is turned off to restart syncing from the genesis block.
20:55
In reply to this message
Maybe you would be interested in a configuration option to not garbage collect old data from Merkel trees.
Then you could look up the blockchain state at any point in history.

It would take a lot of hard drive space though.
20:55
It would sync even faster, since it is just skipping a step
20:56
I think bitcoin has a mode like this
Z
21:22
Zack
I think we should get rid of the existence and delete account tx types. They aren't used.
There could potentially be a bug in their code.
So it has risks, and no benefit.
We should at least turn them off for now, until someone wants them.
S
21:22
Sy
i dont think ive heared from other blockchains actually deleting accounts...ever 😅
Z
21:23
Zack
ethereum talks about rewarding people for deleting data to recover space
21:24
uncompressed, all the merkel proof data for amoveo is like 6 mb.
21:24
the compressed blocks are 185 mb
21:25
At the current time, the benefits of deleting old accounts is practically none.
21:26
I think we have never even discussed the proof of existence tx type here.
I think no one ever posted one of these on mainnet.
S
21:29
Sy
there is a proof of existance tx? what for?
Z
21:29
Zack
there are entire blockchain projects where that is the only application
21:30
Some people at AE pushed pretty hard to add it, saying it would be super popular.
21:31
https://poex.io/ like this
21:31
you can prove that data existed at a point in time
S
21:39
Sy
interesting...but i guess the lightnode cant do it anyway, right?
Z
21:39
Zack
no, I didn't add any of this to the light node
29 May 2019
00:34
Bump
Z
00:34
Zack
who made the 3d logo pic for a 4chan thread? haha
DV
00:35
Denis Voskvitsov
seems that's from amoveo.io
S
02:20
Sy
explorer.veopool.pw state of the current oracle is broken right now, im not sure if i will be able to fix it today so just bare with me, it will be done 😅
02:21
for the time being, check the bets and figure out the state for yourself, i believe in you guys 😝
Z
02:22
Zack
you can use the light node to look up the state of an oracle
S
02:22
Sy
or that :D
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
05:44
Sy
http://explorer.veopool.pw/index.php?input=holders
Top100 Richlist is online, pm me comments on addresses, i would like to identify the big exchange wallets for example
Z
07:46
Zack
I think I got the ram version of the merkel tree working.
07:57
192 blocks per second verification speed on my laptop.
Not so long ago it was < 10 per second.
08:02
with a good internet connection, it should take less than 10 minutes to sync all the blocks from genesis.
08:02
if you are using the experimental branch
EA
08:44
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Zack : if finding product market fit is so important for Amoveo, why not participate in a DAC to help accelerate things?
A invited A
Z
10:27
Zack
In reply to this message
I guess I just don't see this DAC as being a cost effective way of achieving PMF
Deleted invited Deleted Account
EA
10:37
Eric Arsenault
Can you think of a better idea? Product discovery is a lot of work and requires talking to customers
Z
10:40
Zack
as I told you before, I think this DAC is too open ended. It isn't clear what a person is even buying when they participate. Too many ways the money can be used.
T
10:42
Topab
I can't believe the copy of Amoveo got to Epicenter! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl9eUp28R7k Was this the one?
EA
10:58
Eric Arsenault
I’m not surprised. Amoveo is doing amazing things but we are not putting an ounce of effort into showing it to the world. Others will.
10:58
I mean, Zack’s Spanish video was great...but...
11:01
Not as much impact as epicenter
T
11:17
Topab
I also agree, and I feel the Amoveo community is getting tired. Don't get me wrong, it is not only about the price, it is more about Amoveo getting used
EA
11:25
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
How about a DAC bet around increasing the number of unmatched bets? Could even be narrowed down to a Use Case or two... books or sport bets..? I guess I could just create those bets myself.
11:27
How can we find PMF if we can’t structure a DAC around it? Are we just going to hope a project does this work? Or Zack do you plan on leading these efforts
T
11:31
Topab
There is a willing and enthusiatic community behind waiting to get into action to get Amoveo adoption one step forward, what do you suggest Zack? I am having the feeling all the attempts have been unsuccesful for one reason or another. I believe there are few projects out there with this potential to leverage the community effort
Z
11:32
Zack
we can't start focusing on adoption until we have PMF.
Any effort towards adoption at the current time is a wasted effort.
T
11:34
Topab
Adoption = PMF, I meant anything that help us towards adoption, PMF, ... They are different ideas towards the same goal
Z
11:35
Zack
for example, I could pay coinmarketcap to advertise amoveo in the banner ads.
If we don't have PMF, this is a waste, because everyone who sees the ad will try out using Amoveo, and realize Amoveo can't be used for anything yet, and then they stop thinking about Amoveo.

We need to make Amoveo have some actual useful purpose first, then we can work on getting users.
A
11:36
Aries
Agreed Zack is right
T
11:36
Topab
I totally agree on the CMC advertising. No use on this, mostly will harm Amoveo
EA
11:37
Eric Arsenault
I also agree, it would be waste
T
11:38
Topab
I will rephrase: There is a willing and enthusiatic community behind waiting to get into action to get Amoveo find its PMF, what do you suggest Zack? I am having the feeling all the attempts have been unsuccesful for one reason or another. I believe there are few projects out there with this potential to leverage the community effort
11:39
I am feeling the amoveo community is disoriented, not knowing what to do to help the project
11:39
I feel this is a waste + getting the community desperate
Z
11:39
Zack
I think you should try to trade stablecoin contracts. Try to buy low and sell high to earn profit by arbitrage.
A
11:40
Aries
Zack is running Amoveo the same way Satoshi would
11:40
and on the path to Unstoppability
Z
11:40
Zack
a market for stablecoin contracts will help stabilize the price, and make other applications more usable.
A
11:40
Aries
Miners mine, Developers buy, speculators/users arrive.
Z
11:40
Zack
I am here to help you if you have questions or get stuck
A
11:40
Aries
no ERC20 maybe we will get to it nonsense.
T
11:42
Topab
In reply to this message
I am not sure about the rest of the people here but a guideline of work that needs to be done to find PMF will be helpful. Get the people agree on something and try to execute it
Z
11:44
Zack
In reply to this message
1) figure out which of the applications will be the PMF application.
2) make the UX for that application good enough for the average user.
EA
11:44
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
I agree
11:44
So how can I help accelerate 1)
Z
11:44
Zack
If you are not a dev, I think trading stablecoin contracts is a very useful thing you can be doing
11:45
the PMF application will probably involve the P2P derivatives interface
EA
11:45
Eric Arsenault
Yes it will, I agree
11:46
But finding the application will take time, do you plan on leading this Zack?
11:46
And if so, what’s the strategy
Z
11:47
Zack
Sy and I came up with a plan to make explorers a lot easier to program, so they will show more information. That is what I am working on now.
11:47
it is useful for auditing history.
11:47
I will make an option in the config file so that you can store meta data with each block
11:48
the meta data isn't involved with consensus, so we can change it to store whatever we need.
It is produced when the block is processed, so everything involved in processing the block is available.
EA
11:48
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
And this?
11:48
In reply to this message
And this?
11:49
In reply to this message
This sounds great
11:49
What kind of meta data do you imagine storing?
Z
11:49
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/tree/master/docs/use-cases-and-ideas
We regularly try out stuff from here
11:49
we did a futarchy market recently to get hard update 17 pushed through
11:49
I did a DAC to pay for making a video
11:50
I traded derivatives about game of thrones.
I sold stablecoins
11:50
we are trying out many different things, and then we take a step back and improve the tools so it works better, and then we try it out again.
EA
11:50
Eric Arsenault
Yeah, you are definitely leading th way. But that’s a far cry from finding fit
Z
11:51
Zack
it is a cycle of improvement where we aren't building on any false assumptions.
EA
11:51
Eric Arsenault
I agree, this is a lean approach
Z
11:52
Zack
People complain about limitations in the explorers, especially now that oracles are being used more. Catweed has been reducing support for veoscan. Sy is trying to build a better explorer.
11:53
I think this is a good time to add the meta data feature
11:53
<<"{\"height\":2,\"governance\":{\"oracle_question_liquidity\":2210247,\"oracle_winnings\":151118,\"unmatched\\
":151118,\"oracle_close\":151118,\"oracle_bet\":151118,\"oracle_new\":151118,\"ex\":151118,\"cs\":151118,\"tim\
eout\":151118,\"csc\":151118,\"ctc\":151118,\"nc\":151118,\"delete_acc_tx\":0,\"spend\":151118,\"create_acc_tx\
\":151118,\"maximum_question_size\":999,\"maximum_oracle_time\":1,\"minimum_oracle_time\":1,\"oracle_initial_l\
iquidity\":33826071,\"governance_change_limit\":51,\"var_limit\":9481,\"fun_limit\":980,\"space_gas\":1004015,\
\"time_gas\":1004015,\"block_period\":5,\"max_block_size\":207560,\"developer_reward\":1999,\"block_reward\":1\
00227592},\"txs\":[{\"type\":\"coinbase\",\"txid\":\"2sMlkYzfTFABfakEm3VKmwIDmfc0fVo7f/PHKUfQCAs=\"}]}">>


I am using key:value JSON objects
EA
12:16
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
I guess my perspective is this: if we had real people using Amoveo for real applications, our learning cycles would be faster. In order to do that, there needs to be some level of sales or marketing or biz dev.
12:16
Don’t you agree? The faster you can iterate and learn, the faster you get to PMF
12:17
We are learning relatively slowly if it’s just you placing bets
Z
12:21
Zack
Are the current people trying out Amoveo all fake people? I am not sure what you are suggesting.
EA
12:21
Eric Arsenault
No, not fake, but not our target market either
Z
12:23
Zack
How can you know what the target market is before we have PMF?
EA
12:23
Eric Arsenault
You don’t.
12:23
But I don’t think our current user base is our target market that’s all
12:25
Maybe it’s farmers. I have no idea. But with some product discovery, you can figure it out. Then your learning cycle time decreases a lot
12:27
Amazon for example started selling books. I’m sure this was very strategic. If amazon started by selling yo-yo’s, they would have iterated their product a lot slower
Z
12:28
Zack
I think getting a stablecoin market first will make it easier to make any other kind of market afterwards.
EA
12:28
Eric Arsenault
I agree
12:28
Why isn’t anyone doing it though?
12:29
I mean, we can say this all we want, but if people aren’t interested in doing this, then maybe it means there is a problem
12:29
All the functionality is there
Z
12:31
Zack
in a few more days my stablecoin contracts will settle. currently I have like 3 outstanding.
12:32
I think once I can consistently use these contracts without running into errors or having to update things to make it work, then other people will start using it too.
12:32
I will feel more comfortable pushing other people to use them once they work consistently for me.
12:33
people who trade with me and see it work well, they will start trading with others.
EA
12:34
Eric Arsenault
Okay, I hope you are right. If not, let’s revisit this :)
13:28
Synthetix is seeing good traction (it’s a synthetic asset platform)
B
13:45
Ben
btw. is there a human usable interface for the Stablecoin stuff already?
14:15
Deleted Account
We should push for publicity for the upcoming bull run tbh, more talents can join the project if we make top 100 market cap
14:16
Snowball effect
B
15:27
Ben
the Block Reward is now "slightly" less
Z
15:28
Zack
it is now a lot less
15:28
0.16 veo
15:28
there was a bug
B
15:28
Ben
yep
15:28
my TX got pushed twice
Z
15:28
Zack
I set up a hard update to fix this, but it will take a week to activate.
15:29
a hard update to fix the oracle so it can't double-close
B
15:30
Ben
yeah, image i would have spammed it 10X ;)
Z
15:31
Zack
good thing that you did not, miners would be upset
15:31
(0.66) ^10 is about 1.5% of the old block reward
B
15:31
Ben
they will be upset already with 2X
Z
15:32
Zack
(0.66)^2 is less than 1/2
15:32
around 43%
B
15:32
Ben
true
EA
15:32
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
https://t.me/amoveo/73079
15:33
Interface is better, but not perfect yet. There is a DAC on the explorer for further work on it
Z
15:34
Zack
In reply to this message
http://139.59.144.76:8090/main.html I made this website to host live contracts. the light node is getting better all the time.
B
15:34
Ben
lightnode does not work in safari, so yeah i had a look
Z
15:34
Zack
In reply to this message
which light node did you try? This is very surprising.
B
15:35
Ben
the one which is hosted on the Full nodes
Z
15:35
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8080/lookup.html so this page doesn't load?
15:36
Maybe you just don't know how to use the light node?
15:36
for example
15:37
i would post a screenshot, but it is not allowed
Z
15:37
Zack
I guess you need chrome
B
15:43
Ben
in chrome it works
15:43
but there is a huge community out there that used safari
15:43
the light node should support all 3 big browser i guess
Z
15:43
Zack
ill pull out my mac and figure out why safari has problems soon
B
15:44
Ben
cool. thanks
Z
15:44
Zack
I think firefox is having some problems now too.
I guess I have only been using chrome for a while now.
B
15:45
Ben
btw. i opend a github issue in regards to the Oracle Documentation.
Z
15:45
Zack
yeah, I commented.
B
15:45
Ben
without the help of @Simon3456 i would not have been able to close the oracle at all
15:46
that comment does not make sense to me.
15:48
the Documentation does not speak about encoding at all, it just says api:oracle_close(OracleID). will close the oracle. (and it does not)
15:53
so either the Fullnode translate it, or you should update the Documentation.
Z
15:54
Zack
In reply to this message
so you wouldn't have asked on the forum?
Sy is the only person worthy of helping you?
B
15:55
Ben
i know that Sy known the answer and he is a nice guy. that was reason enough for me to approach him.
AK
15:56
A K
In reply to this message
what bug?
Z
15:57
Zack
In reply to this message
it is possible to do an oracle_close to an already closed oracle, which can cause governance variable to update more than once.
the block reward is 0.16 veo now
AK
15:58
A K
omg
Z
15:58
Zack
a hard update to fix this will activate in about a week.
S
15:59
Sy
so...do we vote it up once again or do we wait for the fix so nobody can close spam the upvote and we end up with like 10 veo per block...
AK
15:59
A K
hard update will only prevent future adjustment of gov variables twice? or will also adjust 0.16 upwards to correct a mistake?
B
16:00
Ben
if a hard update would change the Block Value, the GOV Oracle System is uesless
S
16:01
Sy
not useless but i dont think it should be done, we should wait for the fix to activate, diff adjusts quickly now so its not that bad, then upvote it once
Z
16:04
Zack
In reply to this message
the hard update will only prevent this bug in the future, not fix it in the past.
16:05
In reply to this message
it takes time to update a governance oracle. I think if we wait 2 days first before making the oracle, then the hard update will activate before the oracle finishes.
B
16:06
Ben
yep sounds like a plan
S
16:06
Sy
In reply to this message
👍
AK
16:09
A K
that implies we want a higher block reward than 0.16 though )
B
16:09
Ben
true
AK
16:09
A K
I don't think I do, honestly
16:10
i don't mine
B
16:10
Ben
me neither
AK
16:10
A K
and just giving MY money away to some folks seems weird at this point of veo lifecycle
16:11
otoh if the price adjusts proportionally to decreased reward, so that USD paid to miners per day remains the same, miners also should be still happy
B
16:12
Ben
but usually the price does not adapt to DIFF/Block Reward
Z
16:12
Zack
In reply to this message
if you think that mining is "giving money away", then you are very confused.
16:13
Mining is expensive by both electricity costs, and hardware costs.
AK
16:13
A K
it is 100% giving money away, question is, what do veo holders get in return
Z
16:13
Zack
I guess I should have launched Amoveo with no mining.
A market cap of 0 veo.
AK
16:13
A K
do you care if it's 60 TH/s or 20 TH/s ? at this point of veo lifecycle?
S
16:14
Sy
since the diff adjusts quickly, it doesnt really matter
16:15
unless someone does a 51% attack but there is no market to dump double spends anway, thats a new form of security i guess 😂
AK
16:15
A K
exactly
16:15
so I don't care whether it's 60 or 20
16:15
for now
16:15
so I don't want to overpay for extra hash power securing nothing
S
16:15
Sy
we will see how everyone reacts, honestly i think someone would have reduced it a second time anyway within the next month or so
AK
16:16
A K
security through illiquidity $)
16:18
so c.21 VEO/day to miners, assuming historical block time of 11 minutes
16:18
and 3.5 VEO/day to Zack?
Z
16:19
Zack
In reply to this message
you are so confused.
Mining is not for security.
The purpose of mining is to distribute tokens.

If we had no mining, there would be 0 veo, and the blockchain would be worthless.
AK
16:19
A K
you're not disributing any tokens..
16:20
current F1 miners from China dump them all
16:20
to current holders
16:20
it's just an inflation tax, face it
16:20
on holders
16:20
0 network growth
16:20
zero
I
16:21
Instinct
In reply to this message
Or new people to the project
AK
16:21
A K
new ppl can also buy on an exchange
16:21
and price would go up )
16:21
everyone's happy )
Z
16:21
Zack
In reply to this message
It doesn't matter if they dump or hold.
AK
16:21
A K
ok, you can spend your dev reward and pay miners, we can set a negative dev reward per block
16:21
deducting from your acct
16:21
that would do?
16:22
but i suggest forgoing all that fossil burning and capex costs, and just giving your veo away a la airdrops
16:22
much easier
16:22
if that's what you care about - new users
16:26
if you don't care about PoW security, you indeed could've created a predefined amount of VEO like Stellar did, and just give them away as you please
16:26
which is nuts for me, PoW is essential
Z
16:26
Zack
PoW is essential, for distributing tokens.
AK
16:29
A K
I now the article
16:29
security being not the main function != PoW not needed for security, that's 1
16:30
2, distributing new tokens in a more or less fair way is indeed paramount, that's why the way VEO launched is the only way I - as a holder of VEO - accept generally from projects
16:30
3, at some point of lifecycle, priorities switch
16:32
currently PoW in bitcoin doesn't do anything for network growth, IMO
16:32
much less so in 2020 after halvening
Z
16:34
Zack
the idea of a phase shift is interesting.
Maybe the purpose of mining changes over time.
S
16:40
S S
Any chances of amoveo coming to an exchange or putting up any advertisement in the future ?? .
16:45
Also their are reports for graviex exchange selling for 13 dollars .
S
16:45
Sy
probably because their wallet is offline forever and ppl cant withdraw
B
17:00
Ben
the order book has just no buy order for more then 0.0015
AK
18:28
A K
https://amoveo.tools/
18:28
hashrate almost back to 80 - miners don't care )
S
18:30
Sy
i think they havent realised it yet
18:30
it usually takes a day or two until they message me if something is wrong with the pool 😝
18:31
for some even longer
AK
18:31
A K
was a short drop, i though they figured out )
18:31
haha
18:31
rational miner fallacy ))
S
18:31
Sy
i had one guy mine on veopool with an incompatible miner, he didnt care for a week or two
18:31
with 7 rigs or so
Deleted invited Deleted Account
19:32
F1 guys updated their calculator
19:32
VEO used to be number one AFAIK
S
19:33
Sy
amazing that it would still yield profit
AK
19:33
A K
nah, after electricity it's negative
19:33
electricity at $0.1 kWh
S
19:34
Sebsebzen
how did that happen tho?
19:34
governance bug?
S
19:34
Sy
oracle_close bug, yes
19:34
it closed twice, effect activated twice
AK
19:39
A K
if F1 is negative, GPUs should be super negative
T
19:39
Tromp
What is inflation in % terms yearly? Anyone know?
AK
19:40
A K
25 veo / day
19:40
vs current supply of 63K
19:41
so roughly 15%
19:41
better than Bolivar and Peso )
19:41
but quite high if there's no growth
T
19:42
Tromp
It isnt that bad, before update was like 40%?
S
19:46
Sebsebzen
and when's next time can vote to increase again?
AK
19:46
A K
anytime
19:48
In reply to this message
about that, if my math is correct
19:49
it went down 33% and then another 33%
T
19:49
Tromp
Mmm nice
19:51
like BTC in 2013 )
S
19:55
Sy
it was a bit more than a halfing, yes - im intrigued if it will be voted up again once or just left as it is...
AK
19:56
A K
0.67 * 0.67 ~= 0.4 so 60% reduction
S
20:00
Sy
57% i think...i did the math a few minutes ago
MF
20:01
Mr Flintstone
did anyone soft update to censor any further variable changes already?
S
20:04
Sy
veopool did
20:05
AP will probably follow once ap is back...or awake...not sure what his local time is
DV
20:06
Denis Voskvitsov
so it means gov oracle txs won't be processed anymore?
20:08
or just oracle_close until the next update?
S
20:14
Sy
no it just means it wont process oracle_close more than once
DV
20:14
Denis Voskvitsov
ah, right
Gatis Eglitis invited Aldis R
SP
21:13
Stepan Panov
Sorry this came out so late, I've been super ill lately
SP
21:13
Stepan Panov
A
Amoveo News 29.05.2019 21:12:37
This week's nesletter is all about the active community: Q&A session from the Moscow meetup, reduction of the miners' reward and successful crowdfunding for Zack's video.

https://amoveo.substack.com/p/12-the-community-reduced-miners-reward
B
21:48
Ben
get well soon stepan
Z
21:55
Zack
In reply to this message
Get better
B
21:56
Ben
great read anyway
SP
21:58
Stepan Panov
Thanks guys, trying to!
30 May 2019
罗雀 invited 罗雀
Deleted invited Deleted Account
09:33
Deleted Account
hi i read somewhere that the veo block reward changed or what?
Z
09:36
Zack
0.16 veo per block now.
There was a bug so the governance oracle lowered it twice as much as expected.
09:36
Deleted Account
how come it's not in the github commits?
Z
09:36
Zack
the governance system is a part of the oracle system is on the blockchain, not on github.
09:37
Deleted Account
and that controls the mining reward?
09:37
that is exciting news to me, i have some more faith if its a real change
Z
09:37
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8080/lookup.html in the governance section, look up "1"
just the integer 1.
09:38
block_reward is the first governance value
09:38
Deleted Account
hm I don't see a submit button or anything to update that webpage
Z
09:39
Zack
In reply to this message
the governance oracle sets it.
We are supposed to do futarchy first before running the governance oracle, but someone just used the governance oracle without telling us. And they finished the process before any of us noticed.
09:39
Deleted Account
oh nevermind its firefox, works on chrome
Z
09:39
Zack
In reply to this message
there is some bugs in the light node. it needs google chrome for now
09:39
ill try and get those fixed soon so firefox will work again.
09:40
ive been doing all my testing in chrome, so I didn't notice when I broke something.
09:40
Deleted Account
how much veo was staked to make the change in the governance?
OK
09:40
O K
Do you use chrome ?
Z
09:40
Zack
1 veo.
09:40
Deleted Account
oh so basically it was an exploit and you can just reset it back
09:40
not sure how i feel about that lol
Z
09:41
Zack
the fact that the block reward lowered twice instead of once was an exploit. it is fixed so it can't be done again in the future.
OK
09:41
O K
Chrome isn't open source
09:41
Deleted Account
but the 1 veo needed only to change the supply also is an exploit
Z
09:41
Zack
In reply to this message
I actually use chromium.
09:41
Deleted Account
doesnt seem to work as amoveo is intended
OK
09:41
O K
👍
09:42
Deleted Account
im really confused then lol
Z
09:42
Zack
In reply to this message
no, this is the intention.
1 veo is far more than the minimum amount required of 0.36 to do a governance oracle.
09:42
Deleted Account
but i dont understand how some rando can just change the mining reward at will
Z
09:42
Zack
the minimum amount is a governance value. we can change it if we later decide that 0.36 is too low or too high
09:43
Deleted Account
for example i could just make the mining reward 1,000,000 and then change it with 1 veo
09:43
it seems
Z
09:43
Zack
In reply to this message
well, usually we would have noticed in time, and then the futarchy situation would have escalated.
But since no one noticed, there was no escalation.
09:44
Deleted Account
how much time is needed for escalation
Z
09:44
Zack
You can only change the variables by 50% per governance oracle, and it takes at least a week. So it can't break that badly
09:44
Deleted Account
hm this doesn't create much confidence lol
Z
09:44
Zack
50% is a governance value too. we could make that higher or lower with the governance mechanism
09:45
Deleted Account
how many changes to the block reward were ever done in amoveo history
09:45
and i dont understand the .404 number or whatever
09:45
it seems like its the same block reward forever for now
Z
09:45
Zack
it started at 1 veo per block.
Then we went up once, and down 5 times.
09:46
so it went:
1 veo per block, then 1.5 veo per block, then 1, then 0.66, 0.4, 0.16
09:47
Deleted Account
and how much veo were required on each of these changes
09:48
i thought the veo block reward was at 1 for most of its history, that is interesting
Z
09:48
Zack
I think 1 -> 1.5 and 1.5 -> 1 I used the minimum amount of 0.36 veo each time.
0.66 -> 0.4 had issues with futarchy, people invested over 1000 veo. this is when the burn account was created.
Then for 0.4 -> 0.16 the person used just 1 veo.
09:49
Deleted Account
interesting, who initiated the move from .66 to .4, and what was the amount staked for or against within the 1000 veos?
09:49
im surprised you didn't mention this earlier to me when i was complaining about the block reward 😂
Z
09:50
Zack
over 1000 veo were staked in each direction
09:50
This was a failure. Futarchy was working incorrectly. It is not reflective of the intended function of Amoveo.
09:50
Deleted Account
and did you give a public opinion regarding what should be done? who were the main people driving it
09:50
why it was incorrect, i dont understand
09:51
also what percent of VEOs that you earned have you spent?
Z
09:51
Zack
A futarchy market is supposed to measure which decision would result in a higher price of veo. We had some mistake in our math, so the market was not measuring that, it was measuring something different. It was a bug.
09:52
Deleted Account
ok either way that it was changed is a positive
09:52
i think what percent of VEOs you still hold from your dev share tells the most about the future price of veo
09:53
you are BL0SzhkFGFW1kTTdnO8sGnwPEzUvx2U2nyECwWmUJPRhLxbPPK+ep8eYMxlTxVO/wnQS5WmsGIKcrPP7/Fw1WVc= ?
Z
09:54
Zack
I sold 100 veo to Mr Flinstone, it was some of the first veo ever traded when Amoveo was like 1 or 2 months old.
I gave away probably like 10 or 20 veo to various people who had donated their time to the project.
I lost like 10 veo by making bad financial derivatives contracts.
I lost around 10 veo when I messed up with the mining pool and lost my records for how much money I owed different customers, and had to double-pay people.
These numbers aren't exact, they are a rough estimate.
09:54
I have not touched the dev shares
09:55
Besides the dev reward, I made veo from running a mining pool for a while, and for doing escrow.
09:56
Deleted Account
very good to hear, gives me a lot more faith
09:56
im going to start stacking up some more veos again probably
09:57
my hope is that you try not to make suggestions as to block reward and let the community decide on its own
09:57
since your influence would be very big and if block reward goes up again it may be very bearish for veo
09:57
but i believe community will unite to reduce block reward and pump the shit out of veo
OK
09:58
O K
In reply to this message
*the price of a veo
09:58
Deleted Account
price is only thing that matters lol
09:58
price creates the story, not the other way around :)
09:58
and the story is a working futarchy
Z
10:00
Zack
The only version of success that I am interested in, is the one where we are providing a valuable service to real customers.
If we cause the price to pump for other reasons, I think that is harmful to Amoveo.
10:00
Deleted Account
same here
10:00
but from a trader perspective, i think you should know
10:00
here let me show you the tweet
Z
10:00
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo
this is the wallet that I maintain.
10:00
I can help you with it
10:01
In reply to this message
what wallet?
Use this wallet that I maintain: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo
10:02
Deleted Account
what i mean is something like this https://twitter.com/AriDavidPaul/status/1128312972118560769
10:03
it means that if veo does pump because of the low block reward, it creates a story. but the story is in fact the "reality" that it is a working futarchy
10:03
the fact that price creates the narrative has really profound implications actually
10:03
it means in fact the price is what make sit a working futarchy, not working futarchy leads to price increase
Z
10:03
Zack
This is not a pump+dump project. We are trying to make an actually useful product.
I actively discourage anyone from trying to pump the price.
10:04
Deleted Account
yeah i agree as long as block reward remains low, it is a "pump" project without the dump
10:04
pump is good, it means project is progressing
10:06
also why call project amoveo. when antshares rebranded to Neo it pumped 100x hehe
10:06
maybe some better name for this
Z
10:07
Zack
AA is a troll right? Can I ban yet?
10:07
Deleted Account
lol why would you bang one of our biggest investors bro
10:07
*ban
Z
10:08
Zack
In reply to this message
The wallet that I wrote is not offline.
I did not write that website, I don't maintain it.
Qtrade is not chinese.
10:08
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo This is the page that I maintain about Amoveo.
Z
10:09
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8080/txs.html Here is a direct link being served from my server
10:09
Deleted Account
its processing now from the qtrade
Z
10:11
Zack
In reply to this message
This is not evidence. You are spamming hundreds of people with non-evidence to try and prove something that none of us care about, because it isn't relate to Amoveo, which is the topic of this forum.
This is troll behavior, and I am want to get permission from another mod so that I can ban you.
10:11
Deleted Account
lol if i get banned this is just really dumb, you're kicking out your biggest supporters
Z
10:11
Zack
In reply to this message
I recommend not using hitbtc. You will see that i don't even list them on the page that I maintain.
I list qtrade on top, it is most highly recommended.
10:12
Deleted Account
yeah hitbtc almost scammed me
Z
10:13
Zack
In reply to this message
http://139.59.144.76:8080/txs.html
So this page is not working for you?
10:14
In reply to this message
are you using chrome?
10:14
Deleted Account
where can we see pending transactions?
Z
10:16
Zack
In reply to this message
I programmed this light node. no part of it has a string that says "offline". You are describing something impossible.
10:22
Deleted Account
block generation time seems really inconsistent these days
Z
10:26
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8080/txs.html
Is it working better in firefox/safari now?
10:27
Deleted Account
also doesnt gnosis have futarchy? what other projects are marketing futarchy
Z
10:29
Zack
prediction markets/decision markets/ futarchy/derivatives
They are all basically the same thing. Different companies market themselves differently because they have different strategies.
10:30
Deleted Account
ah this market will be more difficult to win than i thought then
10:30
i thought you were the only one doing the futarchy, gnosis market cap is also pretty low
Z
10:30
Zack
Augur, Gnosis, Bitcoin Hivemind are the competitors who are taking the goal more seriously.
10:31
Deleted Account
what makes you better than augur then?
Z
10:31
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/tree/master/docs/other_blockchains
I write about some other blockchains in comparison to Amoveo here