10:33
Deleted Account
doesnt seem like there are any real easy to explain differentiators
10:33
le tme check second link
10:35
i dont understand how augur failed
10:36
this doc is really confusing, it would be helpful to have a one sentence pitch or paragraph pitch about why veo is better than augur
10:36
O K
this doesn't seem to be working on chromium
10:36
Deleted Account
as an investor, if something can't be explained easily its not a great sign because it usually means not enough differentiation
10:39
Zack
can you be more specific?
It loads perfect for me. what are the browser console errors?
10:40
Maybe you have some "https everywhere" option turned on that prevents you from viewing a http page?
10:40
O K
It says Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property '1' of undefined
10:40
Zack
you can't give me a line number?
10:40
Deleted Account
basically it would help to know "what can you do on VEO that you can't do on augur"
10:40
Zack
there are quite a lot of places in the code where we try to read the first element of a list
10:41
O K
at governance.js:81
at merkle_proofs.js:9
at rpc.js:56
at refresh_helper (rpc.js:36)
at rpc.js:30
10:41
Deleted Account
even if its like a scalability thing, like EOS vs ethereum that would be big, but I dont reallly see (or know) what the killer advantages are
10:41
O K
I don't use chromium. It's a fresh install of the lastest version, and is stock
10:41
Zack
it says a merkel proof request returned some invalid data
10:43
it works on my phone, it works in firefox, and in chromium on my ubuntu laptop
10:50
Deleted Account
it would be good if you can get some phds to vouch for you or the trustcoin guy to vouch , it would make the project look more legit
10:50
or publish a scientific looking paper about it to make it look legit would be good
10:50
otherwise its hard for people to take the word on it that it has theoretical advantages over augur
10:51
Zack
A customer doesn't care about why one restaurant is cheaper in theory. They care about which is literally cheaper for them to buy food right now.
10:52
Deleted Account
but as an investor they do care what the public thinks, if the theory underlying the protocols are as you claim to be cryptoeconomically secure
10:52
either way i think a scientific looking paper would be very helpful, with some fancy equations and diagrams to create some hype over augur
10:53
maybe you can create a DAC for someone academic to write up some papers
10:55
hm so only 800 people hold more than 1 veo, does anyone know who are the other 2000 that hold less than 1 veo? that seems kind of weird, maybe its a miner using different addresses?
10:56
Zack
many people have multiple addresses.
10:56
Deleted Account
why would they use multiple addresses? from the wallet it seems like an unnatural thing to do
10:56
i mean my point is it seems unnatural for 2000 addresses with less than 1 veo
10:57
Deleted Account
most people are used to use desktop wallet. i think amoveo should create one .
10:58
Deleted Account
im guessing this one is a vanity address
10:59
this could become very bullish as only a handful of people own most veo
10:59
O K
It's too bad we didn't just make the burn address THISISABURNADDRESSETCETCETC=
10:59
Deleted Account
low gini coefficient and inequality is actually usually good for projects
11:01
Mr Flintstone
I think exan released one
11:01
Zack
that is a burn address.
11:01
Deleted Account
does anyone know what happened to the legendary batman address?
11:02
Zack
it is base64 encoded, and we were in a rush that day to fix the problem fast.
11:02
he is still holding the veo last I checked. I think it is like number 17 or so.
11:02
Deleted Account
the main problem for this project is exchange liquidity, nowhere for people to easily buy
11:03
is it possible to create a DAC for exchange listings
11:03
Deleted Account
i mean a trust free desktop wallet,that looks easy to use. many people trust myeitherwallet tho.. so there's market for the ones exan created
11:03
O K
You can send to invalid addresses, Pham lost a lot of veo this way.
11:04
Zack
I think exan tech's wallet is designed to be trust free. I havent reviewed all the source code, but I think they reuse code from the javasccript light node.
11:04
Deleted Account
i believe this project is ready for a massive pump, the last thing that is needed is for exchange support. i wonder if anybody in this group has exchange contacts to help the pump
11:05
or if a DAC can pay exchange for listing from dev fund
11:05
Zack
it still has to be 65 bytes when you decode it base64. Otherwise our serialization library wouldn't even be able to deliver the block as a message over our api.
11:05
Deleted Account
for example the exchange gets paid if they list and the VEO price is higher than certain fiat price, then they get paid
11:05
it would be a win win, so then VEO pump 10x for example and exchange gets paid after the listing and pump
11:05
this project really needs a business development person to reach out to such exchanges
11:06
also zack you mentioned some mimblewimble integration possible?
11:06
Deleted Account
if you are a big investor you might be motivated to do that yourself.
11:07
Deleted Account
yes but not big enough investor
11:08
i plan on waiting for my mid-caps to pump before reinvest in VEOs, right now liquidity is too thin to be worth to accumulate more
11:08
i had a good pump on my bitcoin SV scamcoins today so its a good sign though
11:08
Mr Flintstone
this didn’t end up working
11:09
it was going to be used for inflation resistance iirc
11:09
but there were additional inflation checks added so that the chain probably halts if there is an inflation bug
11:10
unintended inflation I mean
11:10
Deleted Account
yeah that would be bad
11:10
Zack
you mean inflation of blockchain state, right? not currency inflation.
11:10
mimble wimble is an idea to collapse blockchain state smaller, and to increase privacy
11:11
mimble wimble was still in research stages when I looked into it. It couldn't be used to improve Amoveo yet.
11:11
tokens can’t be counterfeit
11:12
maybe inflation is a bad word
11:12
Zack
oh right, I get what you mean now
11:12
Deleted Account
yes privacy is very bad for faith in crypto systems
11:12
Zack
it is like quadruple entry accounting.
11:12
Deleted Account
i recommend against such privacy for the near or mid future
11:12
Mr Flintstone
channels are private in amoveo
11:13
but you know how much money went into the channel so you can easily check for counterfeiting
11:14
Deleted Account
has any futarchy in VEO failed? for example given the obviously wrong answer
11:14
Mr Flintstone
just because futarchy tells you to do something doesn’t mean it’s always right
11:14
but I don’t think it means it failed
11:15
it gives you an advantage over not using it so it increases your probability of success
11:15
Deleted Account
also does anyone remember what volume VEO had on the last pump when it went 10x? it seems like it would be really hard to liquidate any significant amount of veos
11:17
Mr Flintstone
idk but ask those kinds of questions in the price discussion discord
11:29
Zack
I bet stablecoin markets would be most popular, right?
11:30
Phil Bonello
I think a stablecoin market is only popular if other markets are available
11:33
Deleted Account
what do people think of
$BIS? It's also on qtrade. Have any of their devs been part of other successful projects as zack has?
11:33
Phil Bonello
If there's a bunch of cool stuff to bet on, people then can use the stablecoin market to eliminate VEO risk while betting on whatever they like
11:34
Zack
This is a place to discuss amoveo
11:35
Eric Arsenault
I don’t think this is popular in isolation
11:35
Deleted Account
stablecoins would create massive hype
11:36
Zack
If people want to hold Veo, why wouldn't they want to hold Veo with leverage?
11:37
Jon Snow
As a self claimed biggest investor and supporter of Amoveo, maybe you can do it? No one has larger economic incentives than you, am I right my friend?
11:39
Eric Arsenault
I’m talking about other side of the bet
11:40
Zack
if one side has a stronger incentive to participate, they should pay a higher premium until an equilibrium is found that both can accept.
11:40
Deleted Account
im not the biggest investor lol, only the 11th
11:40
leveraged trading means margin calls and manipulation
11:40
you can just get liquidated bitmex style but way worse
11:56
Deleted Account
is there a way we can do stablecoins contract?
11:56
like the maker stablecoin
11:58
Deleted Account
but nobodys using it i guess
14:06
Sy
It looks like everyone on qtrade is waiting for a first reaction...
16:19
Sylvinho Blanco
I take a look on your discussions for few months. Currently amoveo is not user friendly. It has to be more simple. You need to create a real use case with nice ui/ux.
16:20
Hide IP address in this use case
16:21
HTML without CSS is forbidden
16:21
Adoption = simple to use, simple to understand
16:26
If the project expects to implement a real futarchy, it would solve easiest problem
17:12
Sylvinho Blanco
A mobile application would be the best
17:27
Sy
the hashrate is reacting way less than i thought it would but i guess most ppl didnt even notice it yet, i had 2 miner message me about why my calc is wrong with 0.16 block reward or ask why their balance is moving up so slow...
20:01
Zack
I wish we had used this one.
We need a hard update to move all the burned Veo into here
20:02
Sy
you can put it into one of the next forks ^^
20:17
Tromp
An easy way to go long\short veo with leverage and essy UI could get some traction
20:30
Deleted Account
right
20:46
Denis Voskvitsov
there are mobile applications
they support only spending transactions yet and we're going to add support for channels too
21:56
Deleted Account
right now veo is massively risky because somebody can easily change the block reward
21:57
i believe we need at least half a year of stability before any kind of investment faith can be established
22:30
Sy
If you dont like the reward Changed you vote No, its not that complicated...
22:34
Tromp
Yeah it is not that easy to change if the market doesnt want it changed i believe
22:34
I guess only miner would try to change it
22:35
But miners at this stage seem to be supportive and making a long term bet on the project. At least that is how i see it i mine to support and invest because of the potential
22:46
Deleted Account
miner incentive can never be aligned with investor incentive
22:46
Zack
I think we should make question oracles less expensive.
If anyone disagrees, we can do a futarchy market to be sure this is the right decision.
But if we are already unanimously in agreement that this is a good idea, we can skip the futarchy step.
22:47
A K
If block reward goes down AND price goes up proportionally, USD paid to miners daily remains the same, and both miners and investors are happy
22:48
Deleted Account
no because miners liquidate immediately
22:48
they are not the same as investors
22:48
this is quite obvious
22:51
A K
It doesn't contradict my statement
22:52
Deleted Account
i think the better technology would be for set mining supply and futarchy everything else
22:52
in fact its been proven that centralization technology is in fact decentralization technology 2.0
22:55
the problem with governance onchain is that it doesnt really work, you can just fork a veo
23:07
Mr Flintstone
if a decreasing block reward is what makes veo most valuable, that will happen regardless of if it’s hard coded into the rules or not
23:07
even if you hard coded it, you can always update to remove the rule
23:08
Deleted Account
not really
23:08
if its hard coded like bitcoin, nobody can change it
23:08
and its been proven not to be true with projects like grin
23:10
Zack
bitcoin doesn't use futarchy to make arbitrary updates the way Amoveo does
23:11
Deleted Account
anybody want to sell some veos in bulk?
23:13
Zack
be very careful to trade with this AA person, he seems to be pretending to be a veo whale.
Do not trust him when trading.
23:13
anyway, trading belongs in discord
#trading channel.
23:13
Deleted Account
yes can be used qtrade
23:13
for me, its a binary bet, can we trust zack to do the right thing and keep the supply capped. if so, veo will eventualy do well. if no, then i lose everything lol
23:14
and the inflation rate low
23:14
Zack
if we don't achieve PMF, veo will fail. none of that other stuff matters.
23:14
Deleted Account
what is PMF
23:14
Zack
product market fit
23:15
Deleted Account
the trade is risky AF, since zack already knows he has reputation that he doesnt listen to community and doesn't care (other peoples words on twitter, not mine), so nothing to lose on his side
23:15
im not saying the reputation is true or false, its just what is said on twitter by other people
23:16
but also augur and gnosis don't have product market fit and are doing well
23:16
PMF really doesnt matter
23:17
Instinct
It does for long term success
23:17
Deleted Account
success for investors means price increase
23:17
also even if veo IS successful in doing futarchy, doesnt mean people will use it so its not real long term success
23:17
people will only use veo IF the price is higher
23:18
Zack
the only kind of success I am interested in is where Amoveo is providing a useful service to customers. I am not here to pump investor bags.
23:18
Deleted Account
but it can only provide useful to customers in meaningful way IF investor bags are pumped
23:19
so thats why im suggesting sequence does matter
23:19
Zack
I disagree.
We could increase the block reward a bunch and dillute the investments of everyone who held long-term to almost nothing, and amoveo could still end up successful.
23:19
Deleted Account
focus right now should be on pumping investor bags, which will lead to user attention and customers for long term growth
23:19
Deleted Account
you were trying to sell your suposed 1k VEO and now trying to buy?
23:19
Deleted Account
yup, because inflation decreased
23:20
Deleted Account
nope, because veo value if will have long term value, it must be because people are using it. and if people use it, the veo must have higher price to be used because of supply and demand principles
23:20
same concept as ethereum
23:20
O K
The market cap could go higher with more inflation and lower price.
23:21
Just saying, it could.
23:21
Deleted Account
the price MUST go high in order for veo to be used
23:21
Deleted Account
please don't hehe
23:21
Deleted Account
yes but very unlikely in this market
23:21
O K
There could be only 1 veo, and the price could be 1,000,000 and veo would still be very small
23:21
even though the "price" is high
23:21
Deleted Account
i think zack theorizes a lot but doesnt have enough emperical understanding of markets
23:22
O K
He happens to be correct this time
23:22
Deleted Account
as a veteran shitcoin investor and speculator, i've seen how price creates the narrative. in order for something to be true the narrative must be made first
23:22
hes said a lot of things about mining before that were flat out wrong
23:23
ive happened to invest the ETh ico at 30 cents, and ive seen how these things work. vitalik is genius not because of only dev and theorizing, but he undertands how pumps work in practice
23:23
O K
Actually grin, which you mentioned, is an interesting example
23:23
Deleted Account
yeah grin is performing shit
23:23
O K
The price goes down, and the market cap goes up
23:24
No, the grin "price" is performing shit, but it's still reaching more hands
23:24
Deleted Account
yeah but it will just die out like primecoin
23:24
thats a key emperical analysis of what happens when you dont cap
23:25
sure, but then it goes down, its not possible for capped supply to go on forever, thats why bitcoin was invented in first place, to remove trust from centralized entities that are guaranteed to lose all value over time
23:25
O K
You have investor goggles on so I can see why you would think price of a unit is the only thing that matters
23:25
Deleted Account
ok tell me in long term, how can something that inflates evenly over the same year have a higher market cap without coercive force (fiat currency)
23:26
in the long run that is physically impossible
23:26
O K
Bic sells a lot of pens, but everyone has bics
23:26
Deleted Account
i think its pretty common sense
23:26
yes but what is the long-run value of BIC, 0
23:26
O K
It wouldn't be good to hold bic pens as an investment though
23:26
Deleted Account
exactly, because the long-run value is 0
23:26
O K
They are useful
23:26
Deleted Account
same with veo if it does not cap
23:26
O K
I still buy bic pens
23:26
Deleted Account
ah i see
23:26
i agree on that, but then thats jsut stupid for an investor lol
23:26
Deleted Account
ETH doesn't have a cap. GRIN is getting rekt because inlfation is ridiculous and y10 valuation atm is ridiculous. none of these two are present in VEO
23:26
Deleted Account
atm
23:27
Deleted Account
if VEO is same as buying BIC pen and you are proud of it, there's something highly wrong with this community
23:27
O K
But investors != success, inherently, even though it's a common path
23:28
Deleted Account
but in this market its impossible for veo to be success without cap, because then other projects would have more resources if futarchy really is useful since investors would pump the price of a capped alternative
23:28
you are assuming VEO has a monopoly, but that is not possible in this market without coercive force
23:29
O K
Besides one short lived anomoly the block reward has only ever gone down, why aren't you happy with that?
23:29
Deleted Account
because your analogy is not correct. if there is a BIC pen I can buy that is worth 0 long term, versus a BIC2 pen that will appreciate over time, investors would buy BIC2 pen which would lead to that project having more resources to become the best and create powerful cardinality effects
23:29
its not stable really
23:29
O K
There actually are pens that appreciate over time, but most people still buy bic pens
23:30
Deleted Account
well there are millions of pens people buy around the world
23:30
dont know why you think its BIC, they dont have a monpoloy
23:30
O K
It's just an example. Bic is successful
23:30
Deleted Account
my point is if VEO doesnt cap, it wont be a bic, itll just be a rando pen with 0.001% of the futarchy market
23:31
sure you can argue that .001% of the futarchy market is useful, but only 5 people use it lol
23:31
so its successful i guess in your case
23:32
im just saying its not a great anlogy, the more direct analogy would be crypto market caps
23:32
you have ethereum take the highest one, and then there are 100s of clones, veo would just be like of these very low market cap coins that not people use. sure its success since like 10 people use it though
23:33
Instinct
But eth doesn't have a capped supply right now
23:33
Deleted Account
those are simply assumptions. as ray dalio puts it "The more you think you know, the more closed-minded you'll be."
23:33
Deleted Account
eth doesnt have capped but will move to POS
23:34
well i dont know, i guess emperical analysis suggests im one of the better investors here
23:34
Deleted Account
mate if you dont like the project just sell.
23:34
Deleted Account
nope i like it, thats why i bought more
23:34
Deleted Account
you came here just a few days
23:34
claiming you are a veo whale
23:34
Deleted Account
yeah but the inflation rate was higher a few days ago
23:34
Deleted Account
and just critizizing and talking nonsense
23:35
Deleted Account
well clearly other people didnt think it was nonsense
23:35
since more people supported my view than were against
23:35
if you actually had buyers then why didnt they buy?
23:36
O K
Maybe price-discussion on discord would be a better place for this
23:36
I think
@Jbreezy0 suggested this yesterday as well
23:44
Deleted Account
btw is VEO ASIc mined now? or fpga-ed?
23:45
Zack
I think fpga is the best for now
23:46
I don't mine though, maybe ask in discord
#mining channel
23:47
Deleted Account
oh crap so there are fpga miners lol
23:47
they must have made a killing
23:48
i need to brush up on my fpga skills lol
23:48
Zack
there is an fpga channel in discord. you can ask about that there.
23:48
Deleted Account
ok cool
23:50
why dont you tweak the parameters like monero style so that the cost of mining is same for gpu and fpga and cpu
23:50
it creates a more level playing field and less dumping
23:51
Zack
we are optimizing to make it as easy as possible to produce asics
23:51
Deleted Account
oh thats really weird lol
23:51
Zack
we feel that it will be more secure and efficient once there are asics
23:51
Deleted Account
what are the costs of production for the asics, i thought it takes long time and cost to develop but maybe things have changed in the industry
23:52
and how much more efficient can the asics be than the best fpgas for cost of mining
23:52
Zack
I don't know, I just write the software.
23:52
Deleted Account
and why not just switch to tendermint style consensus
23:52
pow is for distributing tokens, not for security
23:53
Deleted Account
once the POW dumping problem is solved once and for all this coin will doi very well
23:53
ok but now its already been distributed i think it can go to POS
23:53
Zack
its not distributed yet, we are still small.
23:53
Deleted Account
already 1.5 years i think its small market cap but the distribution is basically done already well
23:54
Zack
we need to grow fast to have network effects.
building a walled garden to over-reward early investors would prevent growth.
23:54
Deleted Account
oh thats very bad to hear
23:54
growing fast means price increasing to reinvest into veo dev resources
23:55
miners are always against your side, they just have a bottom line for dumping and making fiat-denominated income
23:55
only POS would lead to incentive alignment for people that actually buy, it makes no sense to me why not rewarding investors as much as possible would be bad for growth
23:55
investor incentive is perfectly aligned with growth
23:56
O K
Please take it to price discussion
23:58
Gonzalo
Nobody buys BIC as an investment, only because they are usefull
23:58
Deleted Account
veo is not a bic though, it is a cryptocoin
23:59
Mr Flintstone
suggested what?
23:59
O K
Moving it to discord
00:00
Deleted Account
$9k!!!!!!!!!!!
00:00
Zack
can I ban AA now?
00:00
Deleted Account
sorry but that deserves an exemption right
00:01
Deleted Account
ok if you must 🙈 im sorry but thats a big price point to break
00:18
Denis Voskvitsov
hi guys! a little update, mostly aimed for devs who're working with Amoveo.
many use cases require reading and displaying transaction history by account etc. and since our big explorers don't offer API it's not that easy to implement.
so, we made API-enabled amoveo blockchain explorer for our projects some time ago and I'd like to share it with the community.
it's available from
https://github.com/amoveo-project/blockchain-explorerit has no UI at all, just API with few endpoints, but it's easy to extend it as all transactions data are stored in database in background.
it's written in Python3 and requires just a few dependencies.
00:26
Zack
in the experimental branch of Amoveo, there is a configuration option so that you can save meta data for each block, and it is in JSON format with key-value pairs.
You could probably use it to make this python code a lot simpler.
00:28
Denis Voskvitsov
yep, it's possible
00:28
though it's quite simple already
00:30
Zack
blocks only store a timestamp?
00:30
is that part still being written?
00:31
how come when you make tables, sometimes the keys are in "quotes" and sometimes they are not?
00:31
Denis Voskvitsov
yes, we didn't need more data from blocks
it's possible to get more data stored ofc
00:32
Zack
ok. thank you for sharing, this looks like a useful tool
00:32
Denis Voskvitsov
pgsql allows to mix quoted and unquoted column names
actually, you can file issues on your questions and feature requests :)
00:33
Zack
so do you have to install postgreSQL seperately?
00:34
Denis Voskvitsov
yes, at the moment
I dream about putting all these into docker to make it easier to run but it's not done yet
00:37
Zack
I think it is only around 30 megabytes to store all the txs.
I bet I could make a standalone version of this that stores all the txs in ram.
I could make it a configuration option in the full node to have all this available from an additional api
00:43
Joshua
I'll look I to it, sounds interesting 😊
00:44
Zack
I think this has issues with very recent txs.
If there is a reorganization, then some txs could get un-done.
So you should only use it to scan historical ranges of blocks
00:47
Denis Voskvitsov
haven't seen such issues yet anyway
I think with comments and support from the community it can become powerful and useful tool
00:49
Zack
I recently made an api in amoveo's experimental branch to search for a txid in the recent blocks.
00:51
I think we need to to use a combination of these tools. For recent blocks we should scan the recent blocks in ram, so we don't corupt the data during reorgnization events.
Then when the blocks are old enough, we can record the txs to some O(1) database like SQL, or an alternative in RAM.
00:51
Denis Voskvitsov
sounds good
I'll examine implementation in that branch
01:41
Zack
I came from a wealthy background, and at some point I got tired of that consumerist lifestyle. Regardless of how much money I make or don't make from Amoveo, I don't plan on changing my lifestyle.
My motivation in Amoveo is more religious than financial. I am helping to create this god which will stop people from hurting each other, and allow us to cooperate to make life easy for everyone.
By building Amoveo I am creating purpose for myself. A reason to get out of bed in the morning.
03:06
Jon Snow
Why would Amoveo stop people from hurting each other?
03:08
Zack
Wars happen because old rich people are able to lie to young poor people.
Amoveo prediction markets can act as a lie detector, so we won't fall for those lies any more.
03:14
the nervous system is how different parts of your body communicate needs, so your body parts can cooperate.
Financial derivatives fill this same niche on a larger scale, in communities of humans.
The laws preventing financial derivatives are harmful to communities the same way numbing all your nerves would be harmful to an individual.
You wouldn't notice when you are injuring yourself if you can't feel it.
03:22
the advantage of an oracle like this is that it lets someone for example bet $100 in veo on event A and be paid either $200 or $0 depending on what happens
03:23
so there isn’t veo price risk. it is like a binary option combined with a scalar to have USD binary betting on events
03:28
I think this can have some interesting applications. sports books have massive expenses, but sellers of risk on amoveo do not. So you can always offer better odds than the sports books
03:30
since you assume the veo price risk when you sell these things, as long as your expected value for veo is positive or neutral it is EV positive to sell these kinds of bets
03:35
Zack
I have a channel that is betting 11 veo, and I can't find the channel state
03:38
it is a channel with my own server
03:38
so I guess I have 22 veo trapped
03:39
Mr Flintstone
you could brute force it without too much effort I think
03:39
you know the pubkeys and amounts
03:39
Zack
It looks like it was from more than 3 months ago
03:39
Mr Flintstone
so there are only a few possible oracles
03:39
Zack
lucky thing this wasn't from the server I deleted
03:40
I don't even have to care about the oracle. I have both private keys, so I can just make a channel team close tx
03:55
A K
How much VEO/USD protection is possible ? Eg to protect from veo going to $10, we'll need to freeze 20 veo?
03:56
And thus btw assume 20 veo price risk )
04:00
Zack
you can see that he set up the limit as 4:1
He is locking up 4x as much as the other person would need to.
04:01
No one ever paid me to make that video.
I messed up an thought that my contract got matched when it had not gotten matched.
04:11
Mr Flintstone
as much as you want, customizable in the smart contract
04:12
the example trade is a 4:1 capital ratio. this protects you down to veo price of ~34 provided you win the bet. it’s also a very short term bet which reduces the volatility risk
04:47
Mr Flintstone
I think the high volatility of veo means it makes more sense to sell favorites, ie the amount you can win is much less than the amount you have risked
06:48
Deleted Account
about product matket fit it seems to me， best usecase now is perhaps use it to predict btc prices
06:49
make it easy for everyone to participate
06:53
bet on prices of some very good projects
07:00
Zack
so, a BTC-stablecoin. yes, that sounds good.
07:20
indeed. If NXT had a vitalik they would have gone so far.
07:20
Veo's vitalik is Zack though, so we're good.
07:44
Deleted Account
because btc or veo prices is what everyone here watch for.
08:43
Zack
there was a bug that caused all the nodes to freeze. it is fixed now. you need to update to unfreeze.
and block_hashes:second_chance().
09:14
Zack
Our anti-counterfeit tool caused us to freeze temporarily, because it thought that counterfeiting might be happening.
Luckily there was no counterfeiting.
Occasionally freezing like this is worth the peace of mind that it is impossible to produce veo out of nothing.
If it breaks, it is far better to break by freezing instead of breaking by letting an attacker produce veo from nothing.
09:15
this happened because hard update 17 changed how we deal with channel data after a channel is closed. The counterfeit scan tool thought that the channel was still open and had valid veo.
09:19
Sy
The diff should be lower now than it actually is so we will just catch up on blocks
09:19
Zack
yeah, I think that only reduces the losses by 1/2 though
09:19
assuming we were frozen for less than 20 blocks
09:20
if it is longer than 20 blocks, I think it only reduces the loss by about 10 block rewards
09:21
this is a first order approximation where we adjust difficulty linearly.
If we want to be more accurate and account for 2nd order effects, the lower difficulty actually compensates us for less than 10 block rewards, because the difficulty changes faster at first
10:37
JOHNwick3's dog
hmm, say as an example i bought 10 veo(or insert amount here) more than I wanted to.. but I don't want to sell them. would it be possible to somehow stake my veo in some way that would turn the veo into "a bitcoin position"? either 100% or a partial?
10:39
you use the light node to do the smart contracts.
10:43
JOHNwick3's dog
hmm,:
So that means,... I can short bitcoin too??
10:44
the oracle has questions in english, which makes it easy to customize the contracts for your needs.
10:45
And if none of these solve what you want exactly, we can help you make a new contract to satisfy your needs.
10:46
JOHNwick3's dog
okay, so Amoveo is functional right now, so you basically have a platform sitting here and people just haven't discovered its power yet...haha
10:47
Zack
It is getting better all the time, I think we are nearly to the point where it is good enough for people to start using it seriously.
10:50
JOHNwick3's dog
I'll definitely tinker with what you said above. Shorting bitcoin or hedging some of my VEO position with bitcoin are two ideas I would love to try a small position in at some point.
Another question: This idea is more complicated. Could you use veo to somehow stake it so that someone could manage your money for you? haha, what if I could put veo on a contract that connects it to gains/losses of a hedge fund?
10:51
like, if i could just somehow connect my veo to Travis Klings fund!
10:51
the dream would be real!
10:51
Zack
if the hedge fund reports it's gains and losses publicly, then you can make amoveo contracts betting on what those gains and losses will be.
10:52
The fact that it is possible to make a contract doesn't guarantee that anyone will want to be on the other side of your contract.
10:54
JOHNwick3's dog
Ya that makes sense.
10:55
that hedge fund idea may be a bit more tricky. It would be funny to ask Warren Buffet to take the opposite bet..haha
10:55
all the crypto haters could take the other side
10:55
So if you can short or long bitcoin with Amoveo. You can also create Leverage too? We can just make a simplified bitmex on here.
11:01
Zack
Yes, leverage is supported.
11:22
Zack
What I don't get, is how come our unit tests did not catch this error before it ended up in mainnet? This seems like exactly something unit tests are supposed to catch.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Zhehao (Kobby) Chen invited Zhehao (Kobby) Chen
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
16:03
Deleted Account
Why is that?
16:44
Ben
please block bob Allstars for posting scam
20:07
Jon Snow
He has been banned
20:31
S S
Just a friendly reminder that it wouldnt hurt to do more marketting . Being indifferent to the community wont really do any good .
20:31
Zack
if it costs money or time, and the benefits do not exceed the costs, then it hurts.
21:29
Deleted Account
'
https://amoveobook.com/' is already a very good use case, 1 some people can use it to gamble/bet/trade ,2 some people read prediction markets to get information. both are very useful. but not enough people use it now? i haven't tried it
21:36
why is this rarely mentioned?
21:40
Zack
We need to get it working on a small scale before we can start marketing to grow to a bigger scale.
21:41
if we get a small community of people regularly using any tool in Amoveo, then it might make sense to start advertising that use case.
22:05
Sylvinho Blanco
Nice
22:32
Deleted Account
it seems that some people are using 'prediction market' on augur regularly already , just not on veo yet.
22:38
⌚
Deleted Account 01.06.2019 08:33:43
Amoveo has problem for deposit / withdraw. We contacted with team, but they didn't respond us. So, disabled withdraw/deposit. This problem is not belog to us.
22:59
Denis Voskvitsov
I believe we need to remove them from
amoveo.io too
I'll try to reach him anyway to see if we can help them to enable withdrawals at least
23:06
Zack
They never contacted me. Haha
23:08
Denis Voskvitsov
I guess they didn't even try to contact someone actually
23:08
Zack
someone paid them to list Amoveo. whoever that was gave an email address. They probably think that person is the developer.
23:09
I never paid any exchange to list Amoveo.
00:19
S S
How do we get a small group of poeple to use something on amoveo wheb they have no knowledge of how to do it and also have age old methods that tgey have been doing it on
00:20
And advertising those discounts
00:21
Zack
I think the typical strategy in startups is to start in an under-served market.
Whatever kinds of contracts are impossible in legacy systems, we should specialize in those first.
00:21
If someone really needs the contract, and we are the only ones who can provide it, then they will use Amoveo.
00:21
S S
If cakes are selling sell cakes
00:21
Dont sell them pies
00:22
But that again is opiniin based
00:22
What matters is urs
00:22
Cos only u can motivate tge community as a whole
00:22
Zack
it costs very little to try making a contract and seeing if anyone accepts it.
00:22
S S
But advertising it it
00:23
Crypto influencers shilling it to start the ball rolling
00:23
It takes the developers intent
00:23
So its better to follow ur game plan than no game plan
00:24
Atleast social media can be managed
06:22
Toby Ganger
at some point the community is going to have to do this….Zack doesn’t do that which is human facing….he’s created brilliant tech…now it’s up to us to figure out how to make it accessible and desirable to actual human beings
07:39
Deleted Account
Hello everyone
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Blaze Zander invited Blaze Zander
Aaron Diong invited Aaron Diong
21:30
Aaron Diong
Hi, May I know who is the person in charge of this group? I have a business collaboration to discuss with.
22:00
S S
He himslef says that its not ready for masses so i dont see a whale coming and picking it up . Everybody is invested in various projects so dedicated promotion unless paid will be substandard at best
22:59
Jon Snow
It is
Zack , but doubt he will entertain any “business collaboration”
23:23
Jon Snow
Please don’t take this the wrong way. A catchy rap song about Amoveo would be a great advertisement. I knew you have this talent Toby👍!
Deleted invited Deleted Account
00:50
Jon Snow
Just want to share this rap song made by Toby with the community. Very good!
00:52
Eric Arsenault
🙌 amazing 🙌
03:48
Toby Ganger
Thanks man!
Deleted invited Deleted Account
20:08
Zack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_histocompatibility_complexThis biological mechanism is very similar to public private key cryptography.
There is some genetic information that acts as the private key and is used to generate a MHC protein. The MHC is the signature over that cell. It goes on the surface of the cell so that other cells can know that this cell is signed.
The MHC is public information, it is impossible to use it to reverse engineer the genetic code that produces the MHC.
Producing the MHC is a one-way function.
20:09
MHC seems like it is probably vulnerable to man in the middle attacks.
You could steal the MHC proteins from another cell, and reuse them yourself.
20:16
Spike Spiegel
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail
20:18
Zack
Biology has always been an important source of inspiration for innovations
21:24
Ben
that is an epic Answer, who said it originally?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
04:34
Dragonmike
Fyi my Amoveo Telegram friends, the latest version of Telegram enables your phone number to be seen by everyone by default... Just giving you a friendly heads up in case you had missed this somewhat disturbing opening up of your privacy...
04:38
Sy
My Default was my contacts...
04:40
Dragonmike
Could depend of which region you're based in. Mine (here in the UK) was set to "everyone". Pretty sneaky if you ask me.
05:25
Deleted Account
biggest 1 day volume we've seen since april
05:40
Sy
ppl you can go back to ap, it was never broken, the stats just didnt update for a while...
07:41
Jon Snow
8.6 BTC, impressive volume today
09:08
Zack
disregard the previous message about a bug. I had just misunderstood something.
09:35
Zack
I updated the light node so it can look up the orders in each oracle, so you can know the volume of bets.
It only works if the light node is downloading data from a full node running the experimental branch of the full node code.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
02:44
Tromp
Grat thanks Stephan 🍺
02:56
Jon Snow
Good work!
03:15
Stepan Panov
Thanks guys 🙌
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
16:57
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
excellent Stepan
16:59
It is interesting indeed to start to get blockchain products into normal theories.
Usually the conclusions are incorrect because they are constrained. Blockchain technology in such an early stage has no limit on our ideas
17:00
I believe in adoption through simplicity, the no one cares how it is done as long as it is done applies here as much as everywhere.
I have no idea how Telegram enables me to talk to you, it just does and I use it because of that. If they move into blockchain to enable this I could care less
17:01
Be trying to replace we are trying to change mindsets of users, that is a brutal job not proper of unfunded normal people like ourselves.
21:25
Zack
I synced every block in under 8 minutes. an average of 145 blocks per second.
21:25
on a $5 per month server
Deleted invited Deleted Account
22:38
i synced safecoin a while back, it took over a day (aka 24h), granted it is 2 years older but i dont see veo anywhere close to that time...
22:50
Ben
no, good job zack!
22:50
syncing is quite fast
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
00:32
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
04:43
Phil Bonello
Some new markets open on Amoveobook
04:43
Deleted Account
bottom 2 expired no?
04:44
Phil Bonello
ah you're right. Disregard
Deleted invited Deleted Account
09:44
Zack
tradeable invalid.
A feature introduced in Amoveo before Augur had launched. Now finally being introduced into Augur.
09:47
Jon Snow
Sadly blockchain is not a patent business.
10:01
Zack
This is the most genuine compliment Augur can give us.
10:25
Zack
And it is a nice confirmation that we are doing something right.
23:59
Deleted Account
does anyone have the link that shows amoveo mining profitability?
23:59
Luke B
A = Liverpool beats Tottenham in the champions league final; P = the price of USD in veo from 0 to 0.04 on June 2nd, 2019, at 12:00 GMT; if A happens, return P * 1024 / 0.04; otherwise return 0. bit number 0
^This is a recent stablecoin market. If the value of VEO in dollar terms falls lets say 50%, how does the winner get paid out?
23:59
Deleted Account
it is a list, includes a bunch of other coins
00:03
Deleted Account
nvm found it
00:09
Mr Flintstone
if the price of veo falls enough and event A happened, the person who bet on event A happening would get all the veo that has been locked up by both sides
00:09
the amount of veo that is locked into the contract from both sides is customizable
00:09
Luke B
But they would still be down in dollar terms though right?
00:11
Mr Flintstone
not if the person selling the bet locked up enough
00:11
they would need to lock up veo in a 3:1 ratio to protect a 2:1 usd payout if veo drops 50%
00:13
Luke B
So if a market is 10:1 then it get exorbitant really fast
00:13
Mr Flintstone
these kinds of contracts are not good for extremely big payoffs, that is right
00:14
in fact they work much better if the buyer is betting on a favorite
00:14
where the amount you can win is much less than the amount you can lose
00:15
Luke B
so the best way to handle this is to have two bets, and lay off the risk in a USD/VEO market
00:16
Mr Flintstone
it is hard to hedge a binary payoff with a linear (scalar) usdveo market
00:16
imagine you bet 5 veo in a binary contract. you either gain 20 veo or you lose the 5 veo you put in
00:16
how can you hedge this to usd using a normal usdveo scalar contract?
00:17
Luke B
2 bets. you place the original wager then short sell the USDVEO price in a seperate bet
00:18
Mr Flintstone
right, but how much usdveo are you short selling to hedge your binary position?
00:21
Mr Flintstone
imagine you can either win 20 veo or lose the 5 you put in. If you’re short 10 veo which is what I think you mean by double and the event doesn’t happen, you’re naked short 10 veo since you lost your 5 so you still have price risk. if the event does happen, you’re long 10 veo (20-10) so you still have price risk to veo
00:22
if the scalar and binary markets are liquid enough, you could constantly update your veo short based on how the market value of the binary option is trading
00:23
Luke B
So there may be people who put up tons of money to make small returns
00:23
Mr Flintstone
so if the contract is worth 5 veo, you could short 5 veo in the scalar market and now you don’t have price risk. if the market thinks the probability of event A increased such that your position is now worth 7 veo, you need to go to the scalar market and short another 2 veo
00:24
I guess my point is that you need efficient markets to properly hedge these kinds of binary positions with scalar markets
00:25
but I think that is the right way to do it, eventually
00:41
Zack
I think it is great that Amoveo allows us to make all sorts of creative contracts that I would have never thought of while building Amoveo.
Amoveo is more narrow than Ethereum in that we only have derivative type contracts, but within the space of derivatives I think we have an easier time of specializing and customizing. It seems like these are the kind of contracts people are most interested in.
02:07
sanket
Are all the nodes able to show 0th conformation transaction
02:07
Zack
light nodes don't know about 0th confirmation txs.
02:07
it has to be in a block for a light node to find out
02:11
Sy
the node you created the tx with does know it is in its mempool and i think you can check that
02:11
other than that you have to wait for the tx to be included in a block to know about it
02:39
Zack
full nodes do share 0th confirmation txs with each other. So any full node that is in sync and you did sync_mode:normal()., that full node should show the same txs in the txpool as any other full node.
tommy boz invited tommy boz
03:56
Sy
true...but can you check them via explorer.html?
03:57
Zack
you can see your balance including 0th confirmation txs on that page yes.
03:58
not that i would essentially pay anyone on that value, you should wait 2-3 confirms to make sure nothing orphaned
Deleted invited Deleted Account
00:13
Zack
Welcome Eva.
I did a hackathon as a team with her before.
00:14
She wants to use a dominant assurance contract to raise money for her project
00:21
Eva
Thanks Zack, and hello everyone! 😊
Zack to your question regarding the project:
"So how does the AI make it get better at teaching people stuff?"
This is what Michael replied:
"AI can be used for (1) to profile the users to specific clusters based on their social status, psychological testing, dilemmas and so on: KNN, SVM, Cluster Analysis and so on; (2) at a more advanced stage it can suggest particular sources for specific users. The main idea behind this project is, however, not AI. It is the connection between people and human experience and technical tools, such as machine learning algorithms. People will be guiding the identification and classification of what is useful and should be viewed by particular users. AI identification of the needs of the user is done using classification algorithms.
The main challenge of this project, at this stage, is neither programming nor Ai. It is rather old-fashioned human research. The project brings human experience to people, and therefore people should identify this experience. In one month no task can be achieved. After the beginning of work, the first significant milestone can be achieved in about 6 months time. It will be a full identification of dilemmas and relevant human experience in a particular topic, for example in school children dealing with school bullying or men in their 40s dealing with a mid-life crisis.
The topic can be the estimation of the future economic and job environment for people trying to decide upon their life choices.
For example, how to decide on what to study. How to decide whether to go or to not go to college. For all this people accumulated a lot of experience which can be shared with those needing it and having the lack of personal experience."
UPD: Tumannost Andromedy = Michael
Tumannost Andromedy invited Tumannost Andromedy
00:43
Zack
We are here to help you make whatever amoveo contract that you want to make.
But I think you should reconsider your decision to avoid one-month goals.
1) failing to reach your goal for one month wouldn't completely destroy your project. Shorter faster iterations means you can try again next month with a better plan.
2) breaking it up into one month segments means you get paid every month. How can you build something if you don't get paid for 6 months?
00:54
Eva
This is why our initial thought was to walk old (traditional) route by looking into investors and angel investors. We are also thinking about crowdfunding, of course. This is not just project were only computers (code) are involved, but also real human behind.
Tumannost is better at explaining technical stuff than me.
00:55
Zack
This forum is for discussing Amoveo.
00:56
You can use Amoveo to fund whatever you want. Software, books. videos. even real human stuff.
But it has to be something that we can easily look up online to see if it happened or not.
01:11
Tumannost Andromedy
Tell me please a little bit about what Amoveo is and what Amoveo contract is. Thank you
01:13
Spike Spiegel
TL:DR it's a way to create secure zero sum derivatives without having to trust the counter-party
01:26
Tumannost Andromedy
I have read it but I must admit that I did not quite get the idea. What is it your service? Is it that you provide the likelihood of the project to succeed and check the background, i.e. whether or not sometging similar has already been achieved. Or did O not get quite right
01:27
Spike Spiegel
Zack created important parts of both Augur / Aeternity and implemented first many new ideas that were theoretical only before him
01:28
Zack
It is for any sort of derivatives contract.
You can bet on the outcome of a foot ball game.
You can bet on what the price of USD in Euros will be next week.
You can bet on whether an author will publish a book as open source.
01:28
but I think for your case, you will want to bet on whether you have successfully delivered on the mile stones towards creating your new public good.
01:29
Tumannost Andromedy
So essentially your company is a betting company. Like stock exchange futures for example
01:29
Zack
There is no company. it is a blockchain.
01:30
We can have derivatives that follow the prices of stocks from stock exchanges.
01:33
Tumannost Andromedy
And the betting is on monthly basis? Is this the reason you suggest monthly goals for us
01:36
Zack
the betting is off-chain inside the lightning network. you can update bets instantaneously, you don't have to wait for any blocks.
01:37
I gave reasons why monthly goals are best.
01:44
Eva
For example: I would like to create a book/graphic novel with a co-author or alone.
Do I need to publish a certain amount of text/illustrations online each month? And other people bet online if we finish our project or not? I remember
Zack explaining me about blockchain crowdfunding. Betting – not sure if I recall exactly what was said about betting. (Thou I know little bit more about betting now)
But I'm not sure how the steps work: where is the money, and what is the product the funders get. Just their bets? If the loose the bet? Sorry if I'm getting it wrong. This is a new concept for me. 😊
01:45
Zack
You can make financial derivatives to bet on whatever you want. Amoveo is permission-less technology. There is no law to stop you, there is no authority to stop you.
01:46
You can bet on what will happen later today, you can bet on what will happen next month, you can bet on what will happen next year.
01:47
A bet works like this.
Lets say you think team P will win the football game, and I think team Q will win.
We can each lock some money into a contract. The contract is programmed to give the money to whoever correctly predicted the outcome of the football game.
01:49
Spike Spiegel
In short: Amoveo is a swiss knife for financial products - it's not a kickstarter like platform
01:49
Zack
dominant assurance contracts have some major advantages over the financial contracts offered by kickstarter.
01:50
Spike Spiegel
you can use it as such but it's up to you to find an audience
01:50
kickstarter is filled with bad projects and no way to short them
02:16
Eva
I understand Amoveo is a new packaging (blockchain) for a traditional betting (sports, finances, or whatever) with that difference – the object of the bet is involved (in some cases), not like in old fashioned betting.
02:46
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
But in this particular case where someone wants to fund a project
Who takes the opposite side? The ones who think it wont happen?
02:51
Zack
it is like selling insurance.
Eva thinks that there is some market demand for what she wants to build.
These people who demand her product, they can buy insurance against the possibility that the product does not get created.
03:10
Eva
So this so called "insurance" (money) goes to the Project and when project is launched (or in monthly stages) the publisher of the Project gets the money, and "insurance policy" owners "receive" this project. Lets call it: Money In Exchange For Goods. They don't need to own the product physically.
The ones, who loose their bet because they put it on project not being launched also loose their money, don't they? And were this money goes? Sorry if I didn't get it right.😊 Lets say – an artist wants to paint an oil painting. Or only digital or partly/digital products? Who decides the Project has happened?
03:11
Zack
the author of the book bets that the book will get published. the readers of the book bet that the book will not get published.
03:11
Amoveo has an oracle mechanism to measure facts about the world, like the result of a football game, or whether some data got published.
03:23
Eva
Looks like I'm back to square one... So I'm putting my money into what I will do my book. Ok, this I can understand. Like an extra "insurance" for myself what I will do it. So basically "readers" want my money if I don't deliver.
03:23
Zack
If you fail to produce the book on time, then the readers get their money back plus interest, and you lose the money that you locked into the contract.
03:27
Eva
And in which link I can see the products and place the bet?
03:33
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
This line made me understand a lot of things, use it more often
03:34
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
thanks for the answers
Zack
08:57
Jon Snow
What’s correlation coin?
09:00
Deleted Account
lmao yes
09:09
Yeah, just a weird question very unexpected
09:11
Christopher Webb
Some coins seem to move against the market (BTC et al) for whatever reason. Tend to be short-term trends though.
09:14
yeah tend to be small mcap coins; i think some whales look for greener pastures during bull breaks
09:16
lol me too but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ what ya gonna do
18:00
Zack
Coin paprika keeps track of correlations of all the coins, including amoveo
10:30
Zack
the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.00833 on May 27, 2019, at 5:00 AM GMT bit number 0
1 veo = 0.008 btc
1 btc = 8706.5 usd
1 usd = 1/8709.5/0.008 = 0.01435 veo
mY2WbsQ1iniQ4PLPVmQamsm5w5VrKN2Mrxrx6103p+g=
For this oracle, the result seems to be outside of the range being measured. so in this case, the oracle's result should be 1023, which is the highest value it can output.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
17:44
Deleted Account
What happened to IOS wallet? I could not open it and did not back up the passphase since my phone is always home
17:51
Zack
the network is down temporarily due to a bug.
17:52
Deleted Account
so ios will be back soon?
17:53
Zack
the network has been down 7.5 hours. I have been working continuously to repair it.
I think it will be fixed within the next 3 hours.
17:53
Deleted Account
so ios wallet will be uploaded again to Apple store?
17:53
Zack
I have no idea about any apple apps for iphone
17:56
Denis Voskvitsov
hi! we have technical issues with AppStore account which I hope will be resolved soon
17:58
Deleted Account
all right, I dont know about the tech, if I have had veo wallet on my phone so I assume my passphase and everything will be there, and I can open my wallet without passphase or anthing?
17:59
Denis Voskvitsov
yes, once it's restored you'll be able to open it again
anyway, I strongly recommend you to store your passphrase and/or private key somewhere safe besides your phone
18:00
Deleted Account
I will, for how long you had this problem and any time line to resture it?
18:01
Denis Voskvitsov
I hope this week it should be fixed.
sorry for the inconvenience (AppStore isn't the best platform obviously)
11:41
We were able to share some important facts that each of us have learned, and the combination was much more powerful and surprising that either of us had expected
22:09
Zack
A compromise between checkpoints and syncing all the blocks:
You download a recent checkpoint of the consensus state so you can immediately start participating in the blockchain, and you start verifying the blocks in reverse order from your checkpoint backwards towards the genesis block. You can set in the config file the depth at which to confirm that the blockchain is valid.
So a very security minded person, or an archival node could have it verify and store all the blocks.
And people who have already verified the history on other computers, they don't have to waste time re-verifying the same history again. They already confirmed which block hashes correspond with which heights.
22:11
This means an Amoveo node freshly downloaded from github would be usable on main net within seconds of turning it on for things like spending veo, operating a mining pool or exchange, checking your balance.
22:13
it is pretty cool how we can verify blocks in any order, it gives us a lot of freedom in making other design choices.
22:19
Denis Voskvitsov
I'd like to present one little yet useful new service: telegram bot allowing to exchange Amoveo for BTC/ETH and vice versa.
It requires no KYC and takes no commission. Exchange rate is aligned with VEO price on top exchanges.
For the time being, single transaction limit is set to 0.5 VEO. We'll probably increase it later.
If you have any issues with the bot, you can send a message to
@amoveo_wallet group.
@ExchangeAmoveo_bot
Jan Creemers invited Jan Creemers
23:01
Denis Voskvitsov
we're also researching possibility of atomic swaps with VEO, but it's in the progress yet
23:03
Zack
great. I can help make by making api or modifying amoveo however necessary to get that to work
23:08
Denis Voskvitsov
thanks. at the moment channels + chalang should be enough, but I'll ask if it's not.
23:25
Zack
I can write chalang code and set up channels, and embed chalang contracts into the light node. whatever we need.
23:40
Mr Flintstone
pretty cool
23:54
A K
Worked for me, yay!
03:06
Ben
i try it now, looks cool
03:06
do you liquidate it directly against an exchange?
03:55
Denis Voskvitsov
it uses a bit more complex logic, but eventually it goes to exchange
03:57
Ben
interesting, so you hedge it with logic
03:58
my trade went thru smootly
04:24
sanket
Wow. This is cool
04:42
sanket
Wow. This is really awesome. Just tried it. It's really fast.
I can remember seeing an escrow tool from ARO arionium, which did something similar.
But this is really fast
05:24
Denis Voskvitsov
thanks guys! glad you like it.
07:51
Zack
https://twitter.com/zack_bitcoin/status/1138229322492391430?s=19This could be really important for Amoveo.
probabilistic state channels.
This is the kind of scaling feature means that the amount of on-chain state is linear to the number of channel hubs instead of to the number of channels.
If a hub had 100 customers or 1 million customers, they would use the same amount of on-chain state.
About 1 transaction per week.
We can support 7*600*130 tx per week currently, so we could have millions of hubs, using the current software.
07:53
This would let amoveo scale way bigger than the number of people on earth.
If this works, it could work for trillions of people at the same time.
10:28
Zack
Voting oracles do not work.
10:28
See "assessing claims" in their white paper.
It is like augur, but with a bunch of important features removed.
leetsp33ch invited leetsp33ch
22:59
Zack
So it seems like I found ways to build prob channels, but we either have to decrease security from 2.2 to 3.2, or we have to double the amount of money locked per channel, or a mixture of those two compromises.
23:20
Ben
2.2 to 3.2 would be an increase right
23:21
Zack
an increase in trust is a decrease in security
23:21
it is the trust/security value
23:22
The hub needs to maintain a merkel tree of all the prob-channels, and the location is determined by the part of the prob-space that results in that channel having real value.
23:23
and it publishes merkel roots on the main chain periodically
23:24
Spike Spiegel
Is Amoveo <-> Ethereum or Amoveo <-> Polkadot interoperability possible?
23:24
For example to replace Chainklink oracles with Amoveo
23:25
Zack
we have sha256 in our smart contracts, so our lightning network can do atomic swaps with pretty much everyone.
Any community can benefit from the decision making power of Amoveo futarchy. Companies, families, countries, churches.
23:25
Amoveo light node is very light, so it should be easy to import our oracle results into anything
23:25
unlike bitcoinhivemind/augur, we encourage people to use our oracle results however they want.
23:26
Denis Voskvitsov
AFAIU, using Amoveo oracle in ethereum requires to implement lightnode in solidity?
23:28
so, just hashing headers and verifying that they point at each other, verifying the proof of work on each header, and using the merkel roots in the header to verify merkel proofs.
23:29
and you wouldn't have to do it for very much of Amoveo's history, and you don't have to store many headers on-chain. The smart contract can just remember what it has verified in a trustless way.
23:30
remembering "I have verified the headers in this range of heights 4000 -> 5500, and the 5500th block header had a hash of H" is a lot shorter than remembering all the headers
02:03
Eric Arsenault
Wow, I had no idea, that’s amazing. For some reason I thought Amoveo was closed off and only could interact with BTC via lightning.
02:03
Definitely a confidence booster in this project :D
02:06
Deleted Account
shit porco dio
02:09
Zack
sin spoilers por favor. ahora no esta en thepiratebay
02:48
J M
voy a crear un mercado para ver si Zack vaya a ver spoilers
02:56
no mames, un chiste
04:15
Mike
So Amoveo could do this better?
05:52
Phil Bonello
Can you share what is happening on the backend here?
06:00
Denis Voskvitsov
it listens blockchain for transaction on the address it has created for your trade. once tx is found in mempool it sends you a message and waits for 1-2 more confirmations. after that it performs exchange by the rate fixed at request time and sends funds to you. at the same time, once it's collected enough money, it balances its accounts sending orders to exchange (hedging previous trades).
06:07
Phil Bonello
Cool, thanks
09:16
Denis Voskvitsov
don't get it, sorry. what do you mean? it's used for exchange, as a UI for the backend which I've described above.
09:17
Crypt Dweller
ah never mind, somewhow I missed the link to the exhange
09:18
Looks really cool! Exciting stuff going on here.
11:24
Sebsebzen
This could be an excellent bounty project. For example using GitCoin
11:26
In starting to write implementation details
Deleted invited Deleted Account
14:15
sanket
Loving this bot. Probably can be programmed to buy small amount of VEO daily or weekly
Deleted invited Deleted Account
15:28
Gatis Eglitis
Just bought some veo via BOT - it works great - big thanks to devs. Bot allows to buy small amounts though but works great. Execution price was 0.0127388535
15:31
Perhaps devs can roll out a TWAP order functionality in a chat bot which can help with this task ?
15:39
sanket
For me the execution price was what was shown
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
09:51
Zack
I gave explanations for who needs to store what data, and came up with estimated costs of storing it.
09:51
It looks like even a very popular channel hub wouldn't need to store more than 2 gigabytes
10:17
Zack
If a person keeps making prob-accounts, and then selling all the value in them for prob-channels, and then using his profits to make new prob-accounts to sell more prob-channels.
It is like he is getting a leveraged position almost.
The total value of all the prob-accounts he controls becomes much larger than the total value of the account he had started with.
So a person with only 1 veo can generate and profit from 20+ veo worth of prob-channels all containing smart contracts.
19:52
That is an on-chain derivatives platform.
19:52
Amoveo has had off-chain derivatives with leverage for over a year now
19:55
The problem with standard lightning network state channels, if you want to run a market hub with 1 million of open bets, you need to have 1 million to lock up in the hub.
With probabilistic payments, if you have $1000, you can end up owning as many $800 hubs as you want. As long as you have customers buying up all the available shares in all the available markets.
The liquidity lockup costs of running a market or a hub are much lower for prob-channels instead of regular channels.
23:24
Tromp
I want to buy veo and bitcoin with russian rubles, anyone have an otc in russia?
06:53
Who cares if oracle is secure
06:53
Zack
Security and cost are linked.
People care about cost.
06:54
Spike Spiegel
If something is insecure yet nobody demonstrated the attack then what?
06:56
Zack
In the long run, the cost of using a tool is proportionate to the cost of running it.
All costs get pushed to the user in the form of fees.
06:56
If security is low, and money gets stolen on a regular basis, this cost is pushed onto the users.
06:56
Spike Spiegel
You can have doors to your house open yet no burglary
06:58
Zack
There are many centralized alternatives for financial derivatives already existing.
Blockchain is expensive technology.
It doesn't make sense to invest in blockchain tech if you don't actually use it to make your product more secure.
06:59
Spike Spiegel
If you can sell tokens to investors and get $611 mcap
06:59
Zack
You can sell shares of a company to investors without needing to involve a risky blockchain smart contract.
07:01
Mr Flintstone
the question is not if these things are secure when there isn’t much money at stake, because that is not a hard problem to solve. The question is, is it still secure when there is lots of money at stake where the money is effectively a bearer asset
07:02
Spike Spiegel
You cannot sell something that isn't representing company shares without the blockchain
07:02
Zack
If you are worried about competitors who don't use blockchain for trustless enforcement, I think you should pay more attention to the Chicago mercantile exchange than to chainlink.
07:02
You can own derivatives in many things besides company shares.
07:03
Orange juice futures for example
07:03
Spike Spiegel
I'm worried about the fact that people are ignoring the "reality" and well formed arguments and using ChainLink ( Google partnership etc... ) and the path for success isn't creating the best product but creating the best memes and maybe then creating the product if there is enough users for MVP already
07:05
Spike Spiegel
For example SNX is disaster waiting to happen and their design works only as long as token price is increasing
07:07
Spike Spiegel
CME is very useful and they even have lot of bitcoin trading AFAIK
07:17
Zack
If you want to compete in the world of centralized derivatives markets, against companies like CME, it takes a lot more than paying Microsoft to announce a partnership.
07:18
I am happy we are in the market for trustless derivatives, so we don't have to go head to head with established competitors like this.
We are differentiating into an untapped market.
07:22
Most blockchain communities write the minimal code necessary to support their users.
In amoveo, we gather the minimum necessary users to support research and development.
07:39
Mr Flintstone
the money at CME is not a bearer asset
07:41
Zack
I am doubtful anyone could run a trustful market for bearer assets in today's regulatory environment.
That would make it too easy to break all sorts of international sanctions.
07:58
Eric Arsenault
Zack if all other things are equal in Amoveo, what would probabilistic payments mean for Amoveo’s market cap? I feel like it would make it less, but I don’t really have full understanding of it.
08:08
Zack
If we don't use the best tools available to us, then we will lose against a competitor who does.
There are 2 major advantages to switching to probabilistic payments:
1) With our current level of technology, if we had dozens of competent programmers maintaining it, I think at best we couldn't sustain more than 10-100 million users, and for many users, Amoveo would only be creating a little more value than the cost of using it.
With probabilistic payments, we could sustain tens of trillions of accounts. The vast majority of users would never write anything on-chain or pay any miner fee.
The cost of using Amoveo would be essentially zero, so there are only benefits to using it.
2) currently if you want to run a market like amoveobook to match trades, you need have twice as much money locked in channels vs the amount actually at stake in the bet. Half the money is being canceled out by arbitrage.
These lockup costs mean that only very rich people can run a hub. Because 1/2 the money in a market at any time is money owned by the hub.
if we go with probabilistic channels instead, then the hub only needs to control something like 2% - 10% of the money in his markets.
Which means it costs a lot less to run a hub and launch some new markets to let people trade.
It seems to me that we have 3 choices:
1) adapt probabilistic state channels
2) find an alternative tech that is even better.
3) fail.
08:10
Currently amoveo offers 2 ways to trade, and they have a trade-off.
p2p derivatives don't have a good market mechanism matching trades in batches. So you might not get as good a price.
the hub market mechanism requires locking up twice as much veo in channels, so it is too expensive for the hub to operate.
with probabilistic state channels, we can have a tool that solves both of these problems at the same time, with many other benefits besides.
08:12
Eric Arsenault
Awesome information :)
08:14
Eric Arsenault
Oh, I didn’t see the “2 major advantages”. Makes it much clearer
08:16
So, because hubs need to lock up way less, Amoveo market cap would in theory be a lot less too
08:16
But we have no choice but to do it
08:17
Zack
If you make a product more affordable, then more people can afford to use it.
08:17
There is no way forcing people to lock up veo unnecessarily was ever beneficial.
08:18
Eric Arsenault
Agreed
08:22
Zack
The eventual price of Amoveo will be related to the size of the part of the economy that Amoveo contracts are facilitating.
08:23
Spike Spiegel
That's false
08:24
Amoveo mcap cannot be lower than $ locked in contracts / channels etc...
08:24
But with almost infinite velocity Amoveo can be used for 100% of the contracts yet be worth close to zero
08:24
Zack
derivative contracts are not instantaneous. By definition.
08:25
The money is locked up for the length of time of the derivative.
08:25
Amoveo is a platform for derivative contracts. This is the only service we provide.
08:27
near the end in bold
> Another, and perhaps even more important, conclusion is that the market cap of an appcoin depends crucially on the holding time H
08:28
This article is not about blockchains like Amoveo.
08:28
Spike Spiegel
It's general dunk on MV = PT
08:29
Imagine that Amoveo locks $1M worth of value for derivatives
08:29
What's the possible price?
08:30
Zack
If at any time, the current demand for Amoveo derivatives contracts tends to be about $1 million, then I would expect that the market cap of Amoveo would tend to be > $1 million.
08:30
Spike Spiegel
Why not just burn part of every tx instead?
08:30
Zack
if there are $1 million of outstanding contracts, then there must be $1 million of veo locked in them
08:31
instead of what?
Amoveo is a platform for derivatives. You want to get rid of the derivatives?
08:32
Spike Spiegel
I want the price of VEO to increase - what's the most effective way to achieve my goal?
08:33
Sell / buy cheap stablecoins so more people would buy VEO to lock it?
08:33
Is there an activity that could increase veo price for people that aren't developers?
08:34
Jon Snow
The most effective and self sufficient way: you buy more VEO to pump the price yourself
08:34
Spike Spiegel
Assume almost 99% of my net worth is locked in VEO already
08:35
Zack
Test out the P2P derivatives tool with small contracts.
Give us feedback on which steps are confusing.
Walk other people through the steps of making contracts, ask them what is confusing, report back to me on what you learn.
08:36
If the p2p derivatives tool became usable, it could be a killer app that actually gets popular, and drives people to buy veo to participate in customized contracts.
08:37
Spike Spiegel
How counterparty discovery works?
08:38
Can we create centralised "craigslist" for potential offers?
08:38
it automatically removes contracts once they expire or get matched
08:38
so you are only viewing contracts that you could accept
08:39
Spike Spiegel
I don't see any offers on the page
08:39
Zack
yes, it is currently empty
08:40
you can generate one in the light node and post it here
08:43
BHVfQWRx7I1xmlWw5KJ7l9ijq4tcobFCub68jsmCGaEQXSr/hi0Vpz8+wa0v8ytcTEUu4wJwTfC+7q6r+CPYS20=
If you are the mad-lad with this account, that means you asked the oracle "Yes or no?".
I think you have about a $1 of veo you can unlock from the oracle WVel87sE/JECLiAmTIfZiRhTGOrfpK+
/w1w0bzguiFc=
08:46
Spike Spiegel
Isn't asking oracles / yes/no question great fun?
08:46
It's like consensus answer or fork ( or bad question )
08:46
Zack
well, the result of this oracle was "bad question"
09:01
So on the day my big 20 veo contracts to give me more leverage expire, it looks like the price of veo was 0.008 bitcoin.
I guess I am going to lose all my 20 veo.
11:50
sanket
Why lose all?
11:53
Zack
I bet that the price would go up, but it went down.
11:55
I think there is still one big way we could potentially make prob-channels more powerful.
Currently, updating the state in a prob-channel always involves communicating with the hub.
I am trying to think of a way to connect a pair of prob-channels together, so the users can work together to update their state without bothering the hub.
11:57
Which would add orders of magnitude more scalability on top.
12:05
So lets call this structure what? an off-hub channel?
I guess to make an off-hub channel, we need some rules specifying the kind of smart contract that Alice and Bob can be agreeing to.
We can use the significant half of the nonce's bits for the prob-channels, and the insignificant half for the off-hub channels.
the off-hub contract needs to be something both alice and bob signed over.
if two non-identical existing off-hub contracts output the same nonce, and that is the highest nonce that can be made, then the hub gets all the money in both side of the off-hub channel. To punish Alice and Bob for potentially cheating.
I think this is all stuff that can be programmed at the chalang level, so the design specified here
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/probabalistic_state_channels.md is enough to build off-hub channels.
12:06
off-hub channels are also great for privacy. It is nice if the hub doesn't know what you are betting on, or how often you are betting.
12:06
And it is convenient if the hub should go off-line, because you can keep using your existing off-hub channels.
12:19
The next thing we would want to make, is for an individual to have many off-hub channels, and for him to run a market inside of them, connecting people together. And to recover the liquidity from channels betting on mutually exclusive outcomes.
And, we want him to be able to make more off-hub channels without having to contact the hub.
If we can achieve all that, then we would have channel hubs supported only by channel hubs, so the blockchain is scaling logarithmically with the amount of usage. It could handle as many users as their are atoms in the universe, all making one payment or derivative contract per second to some other random atom in the universe, and it would be smaller than bitcoin to sync.
12:42
Zack
We added those 6 tx types so that we could punish the hub for double-spending any portion of the probability space, but that might have been a mistake.
Because if we want to make off-hub channel hubs, the hub needs to be able to give responsibility to avoiding double-spends in a section of the probability space to the sub-hub.
12:46
or maybe we just need really good chalang contracts so it is impossible for the off-hub channel to double-spend any part of the probability space.
12:50
We could have 1 block per day on the main chain, and since everyone is using prob-channels, or sub-prob-channels, they can transact as fast as they want without caring about how slow the main chain is.
Only people establishing new channel hubs, or asking a new oracle question would need to wait for a block confirmation.
13:09
Crypt Dweller
I am marveling at the velocity of your thinking Zack, too dim to immediately absorb the current ideas, but in awe of your mind. Keep going.
13:20
Zack
if someone made a hub, and then sold all their stake in it to off-hub hubs. then that means their prob-channel merkel tree will no longer be updated. So they can go offline, and don't have to be involved again.
Even once the entropy is generated to close the channel, other people are incentivized to provide all the evidence, so the hub probably doesn't have to come back online to participate.
It would be great for scalability and convenience if off-hub hubs are possible.
All we need to do is find a way for off-hub hubs to generate off-hub channels without the hub's involvement, and a way to not waste liquidity when matching pairs of trades in an off-hub market.
13:47
Zack
It is nice to have those 6 tx types doe base level hubs. That way prob-channels can be created instantly without waiting for any confirmations.
It isn't a big deal if prob-channels with sub-hubs need to wait for a confirmation before you know it is valid.
Sub-hubs can store the Merkel root of their tree of prob-channels into the block, the same way that hubs do.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
19:33
Zack
I think I solved it.
When a prob-account finishes, and someone wins the lottery. If that person is different from the person who originally created the prob-account, then that person should get paid with the creation of a new prob-account.
That way, if this person who won the lottery, if they have any off-chain prob-channel contracts, all those contracts activate because they are now base-level prob-channels instead of being off-hub prob-channels.
So this means sub-hubs need a source of entropy created after the hub's source of entropy.
20:20
Zack
This also solves the problems of waiting for confirmations for off-hub channels.
Since the off-hub hub will eventually become a hub, you can use the same tricks as for hubs to update smart contracts immediately without waiting for confirmations.
20:54
Zack
The big limitation preventing this design so far is that any layer of hubs can delete all the money in every layer above them by making a double-spend.
If we want 2.2 level security, then 1/2 the money ends up locked in security deposits at every layer of hubs.
So if we are 3 layers deep, then 7/8ths of the money is unusable for smart contracts.
If we go with 3.2 level security, we can have >95% of the money usable for smart contracts after 3 layers, but the person running the hub can threaten to delete everything if we don't pay him a bribe.
20:56
Maybe some compromise is the best we can do.
Locking 10% at each layer, so 70% is accessible after 3 layers deep.
22:24
Zack
If we get rid of those 6 tx types related to proving existence of stuff, and instead program the nodes to gossip evidence of cheating and refuse to use hubs that have cheated, then we could reuse 100% of the money at every layer.
22:25
This way if a small section of the probability space gets double-spent, this doesn't damage value in the other parts of the probability space.
23:06
Zack
this is wrong. getting rid of those tx types doesn't allow us to reuse 100%.
23:25
Zack
I found a solution so the channel hub can't hold our money hostage and demand bribes to not delete it.
23:26
So that means we don't have to lock very much for the hub to maintain 2.2 security.
Even 1% is probably enough.
23:29
Ben
that sounds promising
23:40
nvm, did not work. but I am getting nearer to a solution.
23:54
If all the channel hubs have to report on-chain, and we don't merkelize the roots of prob-channel trees that they report to the blockchain, then I think we could get it to work.
But that would limit us to only like 1000 or so hubs.
If each hub can support 1000 sub-hubs, and each sub-hub can support 1000 sub-sub-hubs, then this would be fine.
But that means the sub-hubs aren't reporting their merkel roots on the main-chain.
So we need to find a way to get all these sub-hub merkel roots inside the prob-channel merkel tree being maintained by the hub.
23:56
if a sub-hub wins the lottery and gets promoted to being a hub, then all the merkel proofs that used to be included in it's parent hub, those need to now be valid proofs to include on-chain in relation to this new hub.
00:06
Zack
I think each hub needs to write blocks, explaining everything they updated in their merkel tree of prob-channels.
And the merkel roots are recorded on Amoveo, signed by their pubkey.
So you can sync their hub-blocks, as a blockchain. And if all the hub-blocks verify, then you can know that this hub has never double-spent.
00:08
If it attempts to double-spend money it already gave you, you can show the merkel proof for when the money was spent, and Amoveo will accept the payment that was made first, and recorded into merkel proofs first.
06:16
Zack
I think now we have some pretty good engineering for how this will work. We should develop some new vocabulary.
You can see I am jumping around using different words for the same thing each time, because I don't know what to call anything.
06:18
Eric Arsenault
Let's try and make it as confusing as possible 😂
06:20
Zack
I think we need to abandon the terms "channel" and "hub"
06:20
Because channels, hubs, and probabilistic payments have all merged into one powerful financial tool that can do everything.
06:22
I think if we can come up with the right words for what to call these things, it will make it a lot easier to explain them to people.
06:24
Eric Arsenault
I would agree, it could help a lot
06:25
Zack
My typical strategy is to go around teaching people about the new mechanism I have invented, until eventually some people I have never met write a blog post about it giving it a name, and giving me no credit.
06:26
maybe something with a root related to "lottery", because it is scalability that comes from random selection.
06:26
Eric Arsenault
That might automatically turn people off
06:27
Zack
how about something related to "sortition" ?
06:27
Eric Arsenault
I would need to wrap my head around what it is you’ve invented before I can have any meaningful input
06:28
Zack
maybe you need good vocab first before you can wrap your head
06:28
Eric Arsenault
Maybe
06:28
Zack
sortition is the root of how they choose juries in common law systems
06:29
"demarchy" is a similar word
06:31
Amoveo is like a crypto-court.
But instead of using sortition to choose the jury, we use sortition to decide who's case the court will actually consider making a ruling on.
06:34
a "sortition pool" ?
06:34
I think we need to say something about how turing complete contracts are driving the odds of the random selection
06:35
Eric Arsenault
random ___________
06:35
Zack
"sortition contract network"
that is a little wordy.
06:35
Eric Arsenault
could be good
06:35
Spike Spiegel
IHMO special case of questions with no "bad answer" options would be useful product in itself
06:35
Zack
maybe we something related to "autonomous agent".
Like "demarchy agent".
06:36
Spike Spiegel
For example for solving twitter arguments
06:36
the equivalent of the duel
06:36
Eric Arsenault
I like it but I'm not sure everyone will get "sortition"
06:37
Zack
an "autonomous agent" is something that can act without human input, but what we have is more like a network of derivatives
06:37
"sortition contracts"
06:37
I think this is my favorite so far.
06:38
a lot like "probabilistic contracts"
06:39
Eric Arsenault
What about "sample agent" or "random agent"
06:39
Zack
maybe "sortition pool" for the network of many contracts, and "sortition contract" for one particular contract.
06:39
Eric Arsenault
people will think sortition is just some sorting mechanism
06:39
or something, I'm not sure
06:39
Zack
"demarchy pool" then?
06:40
Eric Arsenault
sampling pool? I'm not sure if that makes sense
06:40
Zack
"lottery tickets" might be the most clear name
06:40
Eric Arsenault
lottery pool
06:41
Zack
lottocracy is a word
06:41
Eric Arsenault
sortition is actually perfect, but maybe not mainstream enough
06:42
futarchy, lottocracy, demarchy.... 😁
06:42
Zack
at least google gives a decent definition.
it is probably a better name than "amoveo"
06:42
futarchy is very different. all the rest are synonyms.
07:09
Mr Flintstone
the way i think what Zack has been taking about (probabilistic channels) make sense is like this: imagine you are going to receive some money, call it 100 veo. but instead of receiving 100 veo, you actually receive a 10% chance at receiving 1000 veo at some date in the future. the 1000 veo that you could receive is technically owned by someone else’s private key, but it is locked in an account so they can’t move it anywhere on chain for a long time. They can only send other people a probability of winning the entire thing (P) which is basically paying someone P*1000 veo each time. They can sign the transaction off chain, so when you get sent money the amoveo blockchain never actually knows your pubkey. you might ask, why would I be willing to receive 100 veo like this, I don’t want to get paid nothing 90% of the time. the answer is because someone else will be willing to give you 99+ real veo in exchange for your 10% chance at 1000 veo, so you never actually have to experience the random chance.
07:22
Zack
A potential problem:
if you are running a sortition pool, and your parent sortition pool refuses to record any merkel proof updates, then all the contracts in your pool become frozen and nothing can be updated.
07:25
potential solution:
Allow sortition pools to report their state root either in their parent sortition pool, or a grandparent, or any other ancestor, or allow them to put it on the main-chain.
This way if any one sortition pool is frozen, the rest of the network can continue.
08:37
Kinda wanna make a market on Libra/Facebook/GlobalCoin failing
08:38
Sarah Jamie Lewis tweeted
09:00
Zack
it has to be more specific than "failing"
09:00
something we all can agree on the result of
09:10
Eric Arsenault
Which tweet
09:19
Aries
Regarding Libra coin
09:28
Zack
maybe they should be "sortition chains"
like "sidechain"
10:00
Eric Arsenault
New language helps
12:08
Sy
Why is there 1000$ in my 20$ Chain? Because 50 ppl took my bet?
12:09
Zack
a sortition chain has as much money in it as when it was created.
12:09
In that example, the sortition chain was created with $1000, and you bought $10 of that $1000 so that you could participate in a market.
12:15
Sy
Ah its not your Chain, you Bet into someone elses
12:19
The sortition chains can be closed?
12:19
Zack
eventually all the money in a sortition chain goes to whoever won the lottery.
12:25
I think one condition for sortition chains, is that each one needs to have a defined expiration date, and should be unclosable before that date.
Otherwise someone else will close the chain before your contract even becomes valid.
This is easy for sortition chains recorded on the blockchain, but for sortition chains on top of sortition chains it is a lot harder.
I guess when the sortition chain was created, the creator should choose some delay for how long between when a sortition chain closes, and when its child sortition chain closes.
12:27
And the child should inherit it's parent's setting for this delay.
12:29
I think we need the expiration dates to be computable from on-chain data. Because if it is something that gets decided when sortition contracts are written, I think a sortition chain operator and the operator of their parent chain could work together to steal the money from the sortition chain otherwise.
By changing the date to earlier, and sending themselves all the money.
13:16
Sy
but since chains can have chains can have chains, can you close the parent?
13:16
Zack
yes. when you close the parent, one of it's children is selected randomly by the lottery to be promoted, and the rest are deleted.
13:17
Zack
so if every layer has a delay 4 days in the future, then in 20 days we could get through 5 layers, and that could have enough smart contracts to support a whole planet.
13:18
maybe it doesn't make sense to have such a long delay between closing layers. if we all know when it will happen ahead of time.
13:18
maybe 1 day is enough. so in 5 days we could get through 5 layers.
13:20
I guess it doesn't matter to the users anyway. It is about balancing the cost of leaving veo locked up, vs giving people more time to sell their veo back to the parent sortition chain operator, that way everyone can hedge their risks.
13:26
I guess a sortition chain operator would want to buy back all the money in the chain before it gets closed on-chain. Which means the children usually all end up closed first before the parent gets closed.
13:28
maybe that means they should all have the same expiration date. And we just go through the the judgement process for the layers one after another as quick as we can.
Each layer is a lot like settling a channel.
13:45
Sy
I guess using the Parameters of the Parent in the Childs would make Things easier
19:13
Cicero
Zack, where are you from?
19:55
Goldy
why there is no volume on any exchange ? is the project development , marketing ON ?
20:00
Jehan Tremback
Zack is marketing it with cryptic anarcho-capitalist tweets. invest now
20:00
Chris 🍞
does this matter? 😆
20:01
for all I care he's from mars 😆
20:11
Zack
Welcome
@JtrembackJehan has done a lot of research into payment channel in regard to using them to pay for small amounts of bandwidth.
He is working on a whole new internet that takes advantage of cryptocurrency to allocate resources more efficiently.
20:12
im not actually certain it is the same Jehan, but I think no one is interested in impersonating him.
20:22
Instinct
Very interesting. Is it reliant on someone (the channel hub owner) purchasing my chances of winning the lottery? eg I win $20 in a $1000 hub so if no one is interested in purchasing my share I am stuck with the 2% of $1000?
& In the last paragraph under gossip section there's a typo- "So by merely sycing"
20:25
Zack
the sortition chain owner has a financial incentive to buy back the state in all the sortition contracts inside his chain, as this would allow him to hedge his risks.
Another way to hedge risk is to simultaneously be holding 2 contracts that win in mutually exclusive outcomes that cancel out.
You can always turn your sortition contract into a new sortition chain, and then anyone can join your new sortition chain and buy whatever risk you want to sell.
20:31
Instinct
& how much % would the sortition chain owner make if he buys back all the contracts?
20:48
Zack
buying back the contracts is about hedging risks, not earning profit.
But, every risk has a market price, so we can estimate the profit gained by being able to successfully hedge this risk.
It is related to the market price for lottery tickets.
21:02
Every year, people buy many lottery tickets at a loss. So it seems like if we were selling lottery tickets that had a slightly positive expected value, it should be fairly easy to sell these tickets quickly.
21:08
Instinct
Ok, so the onus is on the chain owner to manage risks in his chain to remain profitable. What is the incentive to operate the sortition chain? Does he set all the markets?
21:09
& when multiple layers come in to place does the total amount of money locked stay the same as the original or grow?
21:10
Zack
Amoveo is a blockchain for financial derivatives.
If you make a sortition chain, this allows you to participate in many financial derivative type contracts.
You can run a market to match single-price batches of financial derivative contracts.
21:10
A sortition chain only has as much veo in it as was locked into it when it was originally created.
21:12
Instinct
👍 thanks I will read your write up again later to understand more
07:34
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
Wow 9 btc buywall on 0.01
07:35
Is there a good news coming?
07:36
Zack
I don't keep secrets.
If I have an idea, I share it with the community every step of the way.
That way you can warn me if an idea is bad, so I don't waste time on it.
07:36
Harmony is lifer • $ONE 🦄
Nice! Thanks for being transparent bro. More power!
09:11
Zack
Looking at the example of 3 generations of sortition chains, where the middle generation has sold all their stake, and then gone off-line.
Now the grandparent generation wants to buy back all the contracts it sold to hedge it's risk before the sortition chain ends, but the middle generation is gone, so it can't update the contracts with them.
The grandchildren can make sortition contracts with their grandparent, selling all of the contract back to the grandparent, without the middle generation even needing to come online.
09:14
It was a big shortcoming of state channels, how the money would get locked up if anyone went off-line, and you needed a long on-chain process.
09:14
Sortition chains completely overcomes this limitation.
09:43
Zack
In VM language design, there are a few ways to implement functions.
In a language like C, every time a function gets called, you need to put a new pointer on the call stack. So if you have too many nested functions, eventually the call stack overflows and the program crashes.
In a language like erlang, we have tail-call optimizations. This means that if you format the function call according to some rules, then no memory is wasted when nesting functions inside of each other.
If our state-chain has too many layers of descendants, like 50+ layers, it could start getting very time-consuming to get your money out of the state-chain.
We have to keep shutting down one layer, which generates the next layer on-chain, and then shutting down that layer.
It would be nice if people could feel comfortable making sortition-contracts that are thousands of generations away from the on-chain version, because then we wouldn't need any sort of payment-hubs staying online.
Creating a new sortition contract as a descendant of your existing contract could be the standard way of making payments.
But this only makes sense if we have some way of collapsing the on-chain settlement procedure so it doesn't take thousands of blocks to settle a single sortition chain.
09:57
It seems like the sortition-contract-tx would have to accept a list of smart contracts instead of a single smart contract.
And instead of storing a single integer nonce, it stores a list of nonces.
So when we compare 2 alternative histories, we care about the first nonce that is higher in the list. so
[5, 1, 0, 0, 0] > [5, 0, 100, 100, 100]
10:03
So lets go back to that example where the operator of a sortition chain also controls most of the great-grandchildren sortition chains of that chain.
Lets say he won. So to prove that he won, he would need to publish the 4 smart contracts.
So lets add this missing ingredient: the owner of a sortition-contract should be able to generate valid sortition-txs to close that contract, even if the sortition tx doesn't get included in any merkel proof.
So that means he can publish the 4 smart contracts on-chain, along with a signed explanation saying that this sortition contract was closed.
Since that sortition contract was closed, it is possible for him to make a 1-smart contract sortition-contract-tx to get his money out instead of the 4-step version.
Next we add some safety deposits to disincentivize anyone from publishing a 4-smart contract version when a 1-smart contract version is available.
And that solves our objective. It collapses the amount of smart contracts that get published on-chain, the same way tail-call-optimization saves state in VM design for programming languages.
10:06
This significantly improves user experience, and makes the design orders of magnitude more scalable.
10:09
Using this trick, you can always promote your sortition contract from one sortition-chain into the level of one of it's ancestors, as long as the ancestor cooperates. The middle generations don't matter.
10:16
im starting to feel like the vocabulary is falling apart again.
With this new feature, sortition-chains are being used a lot differently from how we had imagined them before.
If we are constantly splitting sortition-chains into children sortition chains, and then pruning in between steps to move the contracts back to their grandparents, that just doesn't seem like something that would be called a "chain" any more.
The number of blocks in each of these chain is going to be very short, and they will only exist for a few seconds in most cases.
It is hard for me to know what is the base units of activity that we should be naming?
10:25
Maybe we should just call them "sortitions"
drop the "-chain" part.
10:55
Zack
oh. I think I messed up.
This trick doesn't work because when a sortition chain is updated, you need to get the new merkel root stored in your ancestor's sortition chain.
10:57
oh right. That is why we allow them to publish the merkel roots in any ancestor, not just the direct ancestor. so it does work.
11:35
Zack
Somewhere along the way we lost the ability to create a new sortition contract as a part of a lightning payment.
We can update an existing one, but we can't create a new one.
You have to wait for a merkel root to get recorded on-chain.
11:37
Maybe it is for the best. I think we can only have that feature if the sortition chain operator has a safety deposit that is as big as his chain, which means we would lose 1/2 the available money every time we go a generation deeper.
11:46
So it seems like sortition chains is not a replacement for probabilistic payments.
prob-payments can be a part of a lightning payment, so are important for high-speed scalability.
You don't have to wait for a block confirmation just to make a payment.
11:48
I wonder if we can embed prob-payments inside of sortition contracts somehow, so we don't have to make so many deposits on-chain.
11:53
I guess sortition chains should be able to settle 4 ways:
1) if the operator wins his own sortition chain, he just gets paid in veo to his account.
2) if someone different wins, then they become the operator of a new sortition chain, that way we can recursively enforce any more active contracts.
3) the money gets split 50-50 between the operator and someone who is receiving a prob-payment from the operator.
4) the operator made 2 contradictory prob payments, so 90% is deleted, and 10% goes to whoever reported it.
12:09
Zack
I think it might be impossible to put prob-payments inside a sortition chain.
12:32
Zack
because if we dedicated part of the probability space to a prob-payment, we could never recover that space and reuse it for anything else. So it would destroy the utility of the sortition chain.
12:34
I found a 4.1 level solution that allows for lighting payments to create new sortition contracts. It works especially well for low-value updates, like selling someone a sortition contract that starts out with them owning 0% of the value.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
12:40
Zack
4.1 can be very effective if the person you are trusting has a lot of reputation, and the total quantity you are trusting them with is low, and the amount of time you are trusting them for is low.
the equation for when it works is something like this:
(value of reputation) > (quantity of money you trust them with) * (frequency customers make these txs) / (amount of time you are trusting them for)
Genovese Izi invited Genovese Izi
12:43
Zack
An anonymous person can increase the value of their reputation by doing a proof of burn connected to the address that they use for operating sortition chains.
So, however much reputation they need, there is an effective way to get it.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
16:19
Deleted Account
Why the ios app is not available for
India
16:57
Sy
I think it's not available anywhere, apple keeps removing and adding it as they like
Deleted invited Deleted Account
20:18
Zack
I found a 2.2 secure way to do a lightning payment to create a new sortition contract.
But it can only work if
* you have an existing sortition contract capable of accepting as much value as you will control in the new sortition contraxt
* there is a lightning path between you and the person that you want to make the new sortition contract with.
The trick is that if you want a new sortition contract, then you just buy insurance against the possibility that it will not get created.
You use an existing lightning path to buy this insurance.
Once the sortition contract is created, then the insurance contract can never pay out, so it can be deleted.
The cost of buying insurance is far less than the volume of money that can be held in your sortition contract, because you can buy an empty contract.
The cost to the server is (6 block periods of confirmations)*(interest rate)*(amount of money which you will be able to receive I the new sortition contract)
So this is a way to instantly increase the amount of value you can potentially receive in sortition contracts more than 1000x, within a few confirmations, trustlessly.
But, you need an existing sortition contract before you can do this trick.
20:29
It is interesting how the solution to using lightning for creating sortition contracts is so similar to how DAC work. They seems like such different mechanisms, but the same logic makes both possible.
22:14
Zack
http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/fraud-proofs/Can we use fraud proofs so that users don't have to actually sync any sortition-blocks, but they still get the same level of security as if they had?
With blockchain blocks we can use pow in the headers to know what is valid.
For sortition-blocks, a proof of an invalid state transition would be very short.
So it seems like there must be a way to make a contract where someone is putting a big some of money at risk, committing to you that there was no invalid state transition for a certain range of sortition blocks.
The money at risk doesn't necessarily have to go to the person requesting the proof. Just deleting it would be good enough.
00:01
Zack
I found a flaw with the design.
We have this merkel tree for each sortition chain to make sure there are no double-spends across entropy space, but we also need to prevent double-spends across oracle-result space.
So I think we need to embed bits of chalang code into every branch of the merkel tree, to specify whether this branch is splitting across probability space, or oracle result space, or whatever.
This removes all the repetition in the smart contracts, resulting in less memory being required overall.
00:04
this fixes the problem we had before where every sortition contract had to be a power of 2 of it's parent.
00:07
I think this means we need to use a binary merkel tree.
But we can store with pages, so it can still be log16(N) reads to look up a proof instead of log2(N).
00:15
So the merkel proof verifier and the chalang VM need to be the same function.
I guess it is a good thing I already rewritten both of those in javascript.
02:40
Zack
If you are someone who has anxiety related to a decision that is going to be made by another group of people, then Amoveo could be exactly what you need.
It doesn't matter whether it is a decision being made by your boss, or the result of an election, whether or not a war gets declared, etc.
On an individual scale, Amoveo lets you hedge your risk, so you don't have to worry about the outcome any more. Amoveo protects those who faithfully participate in the rituals.
On a larger scale, the price in the market for your insurance unveils the lies and corruption in the decision making process. It removes decision making power from imperfect individuals who would abuse it, and gives this power to a networked AI, wiser than any human. Who will make good decisions for us all.
Your Amoveo insurance contract doesn't just protect you. It is a virtuous act. Your insurance contract is like the firing of a single neuron of the brain of a god. Giving a part of the information it needs to make the optimal decision for us all.
If every important decision is being made by our new god, it will end all corruption. Every decision can be made for the benefit of the global society of humans.
It will be paradise on earth.
A paradise that we are striving for together.
04:49
Deleted Account
From another galaxy, most likely. How is this not obvious?
04:50
Spike Spiegel
By the way, what have you done that's so great? Do you create anything, or just criticise others work and belittle their motivations?
05:43
Zack
Prediction markets aren't a new idea. But maybe I am the first to think that this ritual might need to be framed as a religion to be effectively integrated into our culture.
I'm just pointing out old, well known properties of prediction markets, but framing it as a religion.
05:52
If you start with Hayek's essay about how centrally determined prices are impossible, and we need a market mechanism.
Then you realize that we can make arbitrary derivatives, so all sorts of information can be expressible as a price. In fact every decision being made for a community of people, the effectiveness of the decision being made, this is something that can be expressed as a price.
So, every decision making mechanism besides futarchy is really a broken price-setting mechanism, as certain to fail as the ussr's plan for centrally controlled prices of commodities.
07:54
Zack
We made it to 70k blocks
Hicham Bk invited Hicham Bk
10:38
Zack
For sortition chains, we need to mix the Merkel proofs with the smart contracts.
We want the merkel proof to be a proof that the sortition chain operator has not double-spent your part of the probability space. So we need bits of software in every branch of the merkel tree.
So lets look at an example merkel proof:
proof = [stem, stem, stem, address];
//address - this is the address of the person who owns the sortition contract being proved.
stem = {chalang_bool, hash1, hash2} // if chalang_bool returns true, then hash1 needs to match the hash of the next element of the proof. if it returns false, then hash2 needs to match the next element of the proof.
// chalang_bool - this is some chalang code. If it leaves the stack empty, or leaves a 0 on the top of the stack, then that means the contract returns false. Otherwise we consider it as having returned true.
We need to keep track of gas while verifying merkel proofs, since the chalang_bool step is turing complete.
11:19
Spike Spiegel
what about creating simple lottery on top of amoveo?
11:19
it seems like a no-brainer ( should be easy and fast to implement and it's immediately useful )
11:22
Zack
Currently, smart contracts can only split up the veo between the 2 people who locked money into the channel.
11:23
once we have sortition chains, then a lottery will indeed be a simple application. I expect it would be popular.
11:23
Spike Spiegel
So "secure coin toss" ?
11:25
"So for a lower cost than making 1 payment per week on Bitcoin, you could create and maintain a sortition chain on Amoveo and have tens of thousands of sortition contract relationships, all with different turing complete smart contracts being updated every second." that's sounds amazing if true
11:25
if implemented and used
11:25
Zack
It's not a whole lot more complicated than the state channels we have now.
11:26
just adding some randomness features.
11:28
In some important ways, it is actually a lot easier than the state channels we have now.
To recover liquidity, we want to move bets to a direct path, but that involves putting a contract on-chain, so, waiting for confirmations. it is a usability disaster.
sortition chains are a little more complicated on the game theory side, but it is worth it because it makes it so much easier to build a good user interface.
11:28
Spike Spiegel
I think it's groundbreaking:
- with secure oracles
- compact Merkle proofs
- scaleable Erlang codebase
One can actually transact tons of contracts / second
11:28
Zack
If it is 100% off-chain, then you never have to wait for confirmations, which will be much better.
11:29
Spike Spiegel
But as end-user: if there is no interface AND no counter-party discovery it's like the product doesn't even exist
11:30
like Ethereum in ~2014 or so with no metamask, no dapps no use cases
11:30
Zack
we have a light node, you can already make p2p derivatives
11:30
we have a website where you can post contracts
11:30
the light node even works on my phone
11:31
Zack
you can make new oracles and bet in the oracle from the light node.
11:32
Spike Spiegel
but I'm not technical enough for this:
For example I have $100 worth of VEO and I want 3x bitcoin exposure - if there is no counterparty I have to use bZx or BitMEX instead
11:33
Zack
We are in the process of making oracles cheaper.
If someone else makes a scalar oracle for the bitcoin price first, then it would be easy and cheap to reuse it to make your contract.
11:34
the p2p derivatives interface is getting pretty easy. and there are people here to walk you through every step.
11:34
Spike Spiegel
what would be the cost of doing daily bitcoin price oracle?
11:34
Zack
currently a scalar oracle is 0.24 veo
11:35
Spike Spiegel
so $24 a day minimum -> $720 for daily oracle price?
11:35
Zack
we are in the process of lowering the price of question oracle
11:36
not much use in making these estimates now.
14:36
Živojin Mirić
Hello, I just came to say that I will frame this sentence and put it on my wall
14:36
"Your insurance contract is like the firing of a single neuron of the brain of a god."
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
23:43
Deleted Account
hi !
Deleted invited Deleted Account