09:57
Zack
We need to get the randomness into chalang, so we can make these sortition merkel proofs.
I guess we should choose a block hash to import as a binary?
Ideally we would use the block hash are the seed for a deterministic random number generator, that way we can have more than 256 bits of entropy from a single block hash.
So I guess I should use an erlang library for this, and add some chalang words to for:
1) load a block hash onto the stack.
2) load a seed into the random number generator
and then every time we call rand_bool, it can use the random number generator to make the decision.
If our merkel tree has multiple tiny contracts, it would be inefficient to re-load the block hash into the random number generator over and over for every contract. and it would be bad if we re-used the same random bits on multliple contracts, because that could cause correlation between the multiple layers, so some lottery tickets would be worth double what we had intended, and other lottery tickets will be worth nothing.
So I am thinking when we verify a merkel proof, we should first check that all the hashes match, then we should append all the short chalang contracts together with some glue code in between, so we can verify them all in one go. So we only run the VM once per merkel proof.
11:04
Zack
The merkel tree has so many different paths with different possible bits of code, and each leaf of the tree is another sortition chain with another merkel tree with completely different code.
So it is like all the sortition chains in one family, they are one giant tree of the possible execution paths of a single program.
A giant distributed program, so large, no single computer stores even a significant fraction of it. The only parts we are sure to find out about, are the bits randomly selected to be posted on-chain.
11:11
There is an idea from physics called reversible computing.
The aspect of computation that is expensive is erasing bits. This can be proven from physics ideas related to entropy.
But if we keep all the intermediate data, and we run the computer program backwards at the end, it is possible to recover practically all the energy used, and we don't spill any entropy. Because this way we never erase anything, all the values get reabsorbed into functions that produce smaller results, until we finally get back to the original inputs of the program.
The way a sortition chain operator buys back and disassembles all the financial contracts back to their basic form at the end to get rid of the variance feels similar to me.
getting rid of the variance seems similar to avoiding spilling entropy.
running the computation backwards seems similar to undoing the financial contracts.
11:19
If this works the way it seems like it will, even a sortition chain that supported a trillion smart contracts, closing it on-chain would just say "the creator of this sortition chain is sending the money to themself" It only has to be a few bytes longer than their signature + 32-byte sortition ID.
11:21
It is similar to how even if you have a complicated contract in a state channel, it is still becomes a very small tx if you cooperate to close the channel on-chain.
14:33
Sy
i think that one was posted when it came out, it triggered the last spike i guess
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05:52
Demi Yilmaz
This is cool
06:49
Deleted Account
Veo price looks interesting on cmc. 😅😁
06:53
Check out
qtrade.io to see a more liquid market for Veo
06:53
Actual price is around $100
07:05
catweed BHK5GJ5OLKdQkS/h7p4Ue//l6Sivh79q320F3nzdbs8jsjv1Y7lh2LQ5Ad6u1NEolcGNYFQmdOnd7ekvPLbjLQY=
This address balance isn't right on veoscan. Is everything OK?
15:53
Jan Creemers
Where can I find help with understanding the Amoveo-codebase, like, chalang and the integration of the VM.
19:33
Zack
Software is on github. Documentation is on github. You can ask questions here.
20:10
Jan Creemers
I try to find out where the VM is used, but I can't see it. There's chalang.js in the light-node and a chalang.erl for the core/server/full-node. But I don't see the usage of it, where/what.
20:10
Zack
We use state channels so that the smart contracts are off-chain in the lightning network.
20:17
Jan Creemers
State channels and lightning network is all part of the total code-base. At some point I must see/find the compilation of a "smart contract".
20:18
Zack
The smart contracts that people use, they are already compiled and embedded into the light node
20:19
Jan Creemers
Ok, think I got what I was looking for > spk.erl
09:34
Zack
What is the ID for looking up a value from one of these merkel trees that mixes code with data?
I guess it would have to be the smart contract itself.
I wonder if we should all keep copies of smart contracts locally, and refer to it by hash for the protocol. It wouldn't be good to send long contracts back and forth.
What is interesting about using a contract as an ID, is that a contract that is originally completely contained in one level of the merkel tree, it can get divided up and spread out to many layers of the merkel tree.
09:36
So maybe each contract should be made up of indivisible sections, maybe they can be "atoms".
Ideally the order in which the atoms of a contract are executed shouldn't make a difference for the definition of that contract.
09:43
So if someone bets on a football game using 1/100th of the value in a sortition chain, at first we have not decided if the merkel tree contract will do the oracle part first or the 1/100th randomness part first.
Depending on who else shows up and make bets, one or the other way could be more efficient.
09:44
But that means, looking something up in a merkel tree would have to be way too complicated.
If you don't know which part of the contract comes first, you wont know which path of the tree you should be reading.
09:45
So I guess we can't do this trick. We have to decide on the order of atoms when a contract is first established with the sortition chain operator.
09:48
The cost of making question oracles was reduced 30%.
I think we would all agree that reducing it further is good.
If you disagree, speak up, and we can make a futarchy market to be certain it is the right choice.
09:52
Since we have to decide the order of atoms up front, that does make it a lot easier to program the random number generator.
09:53
we know the order that entropy generated will be used in different parts of the contract
12:41
Zack
when you look something up in the merkel tree, besides letting the key be the literal contract, the key could be the value of the random seed and oracle results such that you end up winning the lottery.
12:43
It is a lot easier to keep the random seed/oracle results as constants so they can be the keys to look stuff up, and then we are free to adjust the contract as needed to keep the merkel tree balanced.
13:01
Zack
But if we do it that way, then verifying sortition blocks becomes a little complicated.
If there are multiple ways to update the merkel tree based on the txs in a block, how do we know which one we need to do to calculate the right merkel tree?
Maybe the block needs to store some extra information for this.
13:03
we can probably come up with some rules for how to calculate the contracts deterministically given a set of keys.
13:07
sometimes the rules are more complicated than those keys could express.
like if we used some oracles to express a scalar value, and used that scalar value as part of the calculation for the probability of who will win the sortition chain lottery.
So we can't use that trick for keys.
13:08
Maybe we do need to use the entire contract as a key.
22:29
Zack
Maybe if instead of having the key express the entire range of values where you win, you could use any particular values that result in your winning.
22:31
So when you look yourself up, you can just make a key where the oracle is set up to maximize your chance of winning, and the entropy is any value in the range where you do win.
22:34
We just need to show that it is possible to have a deterministic set of rules for updating the merkel tree with arbitrary contracts such that the merkel tree stays balanced.
02:50
Mr Flintstone
so the person in discord is going to short veo conditional on block reward staying low / long veo conditional on block reward going up?
02:51
I might take the other side of that bet if I am understanding correctly lol
03:02
Zack
yeah, I was thinking of taking the other side as well
03:05
maybe you can help them out if they have more questions
03:05
the language barrier is tough with loloxian
10:03
Zack
If lots of people keep updating a sortition chain, the merkel tree can end up all messy similar to the way a NTFS in windows does. So it needs to be defragmented.
Like, if I had $10, and you had $10, and our accounts are non-adjacent, and I send $1 to you, what is happening behind the scenes?
I guess my sortition contract is getting $1 smaller, so $1 of space next to my contract is now pointed towards the sortition chain operator.
There isn't necessarily any space next to your account, so now the operator needs to find $1 available somewhere to give to you.
So now you are holding 2 sortition contracts in non-adjacent locations of the probability space, which means any contract you could want to participate in is duplicated.
Does anyone know a way to overcome this?
Do I need to map probability space to a tree structure instead of a line?
10:03
Maybe we need to keep some empty space available next to everyone's account, so they can receive veo more conveniently?
10:08
Maybe I should choose a region in an N-dimentional hypercube of width 2, that way each part of the probability space is adjacent to many other parts of the probability space.
10:11
I think this doesn't help.
10:12
I guess we should give the customer the option of either having extra space available to receive payments, or creating new sortition contracts when needed, and we just charge a fee that makes sense for the cost of service that they consume.
21:12
Zack
This is a place to discuss amoveo.
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08:31
Zack
Instead of duplicating the entire contract, we can make contracts that use disjoint parts of the probability space.
something like (((X > 0) and (X < 5)) or ((X > 10) and (X < 13)))
08:34
Now I wonder where we will put new contracts in the probability space, since they may grow.
I think maybe we should consider the probability space as a loop, and divide the loop into phi ratio. We can keep taking a phi-ratio step forwards around the loop, which will tend to put new contracts in the gap between old ones.
That is the trick plants use for deciding where to grow a new leaf around a stem
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12:55
http://139.59.144.76:8090/main.htmlThere is a futarchy market saying that raising the block reward will make the price of veo increase.
If you disagree with this, then it is profitable for you to accept one of these contracts.
14:15
Sergey Dsk
hi,
1) Really hard to find amoveobook on veo site. Which is under “VEO tools” not intuitive at all. Hope it will be moved on first page as it is CORE of the veo or there is any reason why it so hard to find?
2) not possible to “Predict” with stablecoins. Will it be available in future? Freezing crypto for any time can cause loss in its value even your prediction is right.
3) still struggle to get to amoveobook, it asked me to install plugin, i did, still no go.. I got asked to install pugin over and over, even i already have one.
P.S yesterday made my first prediction on augur, it took me about 20 mins to get used from scratch (from first visit to placing prediction). It was not intuitive at all i would like to say, but here first problem is to find amoveobook which took me 20 mins of search.
18:36
Zack
Why not use the p2p tool instead of amoveo book?
I don't know what you mean by (2).
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21:42
Gregor
2) sounds like there’s no possibility to use stablecoins for pm
21:42
I’d like to start mining and have an i7 intel nuc. Would it do anything?
21:42
Zack
you can use stablecoin for a PM.
Why not? Amoveo smart contracts are turing complete. you can program whatever you want.
21:42
mining with a CPU is not profitable.
21:43
Amoveobook at the p2p derivatives tool are both capable of using the same smart contracts.
Neither has any stablecoin type limitations.
22:40
Gregor
On augur, i think. Not sure, though
23:48
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8090/main.htmlThere is a live futarchy market. if no one accepts these contracts in the next day and a half or so, then we will begin the process of increasing the block reward.
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09:59
Spike Spiegel
Can MakerDAO clone be build on top of Amoveo?
10:00
Multiple CDP's with different risk profile but one fungible stablecoin
10:00
Impossible or rather bad idea?
10:28
Zack
Putting a subcurrency inside of Amoveo is practically impossible.
Anyway, that is a bad design. We don't want a one-size-fits-all subcurrency, we want each customer to be able to have bespoke contracts to exactly hedge their individual risks.
10:29
Spike Spiegel
who will be the counterparty then?
10:29
Zack
A state channel can only use money that has been locked into it when it was created.
If you only locked veo into it when creating it, then there are no stable-btc inside of the channel, so you can't have a smart contract that references stable-btcs.
Having to predict which kind of subcurrencies you will need before you can create the channel make is unusable.
10:29
Spike Spiegel
Let's say I would like to have stablecoin but with exactly 142% margin - there would be zero liquidity for it
10:29
Zack
all stablecoins contracts have a counterparty.
You can't destroy risk. All you can do is change who holds it.
10:30
That isn't so different from the stablecoin contracts I sold last month. I can help you make contracts to do this.
10:30
Spike Spiegel
I've did some research into what people would like to see assuming anything is possible and they said MakerDAO for Bitcoin
10:32
I have zero interest in using Amoveo for myself. I'm 100% interested in thinking how to get other people to use it.
10:32
Zack
Look at the foreign exchange markets. There are big players who need to hedge large amounts of risk for holding foreign currency.
So how are these markets built?
Do they create stable sub-currencies to try and capture the foreign exchange risk into a subcurrency? no.
The foreign exchange markets are built using financial derivatives, just like Amoveo.
Just because we are using blockchains doesn't mean we should abandon everything we already know about how people like to use financial tools.
10:33
I don't care about your survey asking crypto hodlers if they want MakerDAO.
Go to some people who trade derivatives in foreign exchange markets professionally. Ask them if they would prefer to trade normal derivatives, or to use MakerDAO type contracts to hedge their Yuan/USD risks.
10:35
Spike Spiegel
Those people with Bloomberg terminals won't use Amoveo even if would do things perfectly because they cannot use it as it's not regulated.
10:35
Airline company trying to hedge fuel cost risk won't be using Amoveo
10:36
People already using not secure or just bad derivatives on ETH may convert to something better ( both logically and financially )
10:36
Zack
You misunderstand me.
I am not saying that people like derivatives because we have a culture of this kind of financial contract.
Financial derivatives are a far superior tool for hedging your risk in comparison to the crazy mess that is MakerDAO.
10:37
Spike Spiegel
My point is that it would be easier to convert people using MakerDAO to using Amoveo based products than trying to convince an airline or regulated entity / company to use veo
10:39
Zack
Amoveo is a blockchain for financial derivatives.
If you want a blockchain for subcurrencies, then this is not the right project for you.
10:40
Spike Spiegel
Can something similar to Maker can be created without sub-currencies?
10:41
Maybe DAI / MKR design is flawed but you have multiple DAI / ERC20 pairs and people love it
10:41
Zack
Maker is a tool for hedging your risks. It is a broken, poorly constructed version of financial derivatives.
It is like a sickly, barely functional version of Amoveo.
10:41
Spike Spiegel
People love the idea of being able to "sell stablecoins"
10:42
or buy them. Not sure which way - say 10% per annum return with limited VEO exposure = perfect
10:42
Zack
They love the idea of trading risk in different assets.
Users don't care how it works behind the scenes.
10:43
Spike Spiegel
yes, give me 10% return ( or Compound rate + 1% ) and you will see the traction
10:43
Zack
If the UI is identical for both products, the customer just cares about which is giving them a better deal.
And normal financial derivatives will consistently give you better deals vs trying to build derivatives on top of the crazy sub-currency mess.
10:44
Spike Spiegel
What's the return from buying stablecoins?
10:44
How to find person willing to take VEO risk
10:46
Spike Spiegel
IF I understand correctly:
I buy and lock some VEO and I'm getting a contract that would give me $110 worth of VEO after some time when I locked $100. So I'm not going to get any returns from veo change in price but my counterparty is going to get double risk
10:46
But how to find a counterparty for such deal?
10:46
Zack
Amoveo smart contracts are turing complete. What you describe is one contract you can make yes.
10:46
publish it on that website.
10:47
Spike Spiegel
but it's useless until I find people willing to take veo risk
10:47
Zack
if you publish a contract at a decent price, someone will match it
10:47
Spike Spiegel
what's the decent price?
10:47
imagine going to stock exchange and not seeing ticker prices...
10:47
Zack
Who knows? if you are the first trader in a market, it is hard to be sure.
Start low, and work your way up.
10:48
Every market has a first trader.
10:48
Spike Spiegel
markets without participants are worse then useless
10:48
Because it cost to participate
10:48
Zack
The longest journey starts with one step. the biggest market starts with one participant.
10:48
Spike Spiegel
Until I can find somebody willing to take VEO risk I have to bear VEO risk for myself
10:48
Nobody will pay me for that
10:48
Zack
no it does not. if no one accepts your contract, then it is free.
10:49
Spike Spiegel
it cost me because I have to hedge veo risk because I don't want exposure yet I have to own some to use the markets
10:50
Meanwhile Compound pays me 7-8% and they already have 3000 participants
10:50
Zack
You could atomic swap bitcoin for a position in an amoveo channel where you are owning stable-bitcoin, that way you never go through an in-between step of holding VEO risk.
10:52
Spike Spiegel
what's the cost for skilled dev to create such thing?
10:52
Zack
and then you could make bets using your stable-bitcoins, and if you win, you could atomic-swap those stable-bitcoins back to bitcoin inside a channel on the bitcoin blockchain
10:53
ill do it eventually, but I might do it with ethereum instead of bitcoin.
10:54
Atomic swapping with libra might be even more important
10:54
Spike Spiegel
huh, what about people willing to hold veo risk
10:55
I think people prefer to hold VEO directly vs via derivatives because they don't want to be margin called or wiped out
10:56
Zack
Amoveo doesn't confiscate your money if you temporarily cross a margin.
Smart contracts are off-chain, so the blockchain can't even know if you have crossed a margin or what you are betting on.
Only the final price matters.
10:56
If people want to hold veo, then they will want to have a leveraged position in veo.
10:56
Spike Spiegel
I think there is low demand for long veo
10:56
via selling stablecoins
11:01
Spike Spiegel
bet type: scalar; price = 0.00909 veo/stablecoin or 110.00000 stablecoin/veo; you win if the price of stablecoin measured in veo increases; they pay = 1; you pay = 1; expires: 71232
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11:12
I am thinking that we can have a link so you can auto-fill the form with the same data that was used to create one of the existing contracts on the server.
That way it is easy to make the same contract with a slightly different price, for example.
11:13
Spike Spiegel
It would be nice to have visible markets or at least self-reported
11:48
Zack
it is organized by market.
It is hard to tell now, because each market has exactly 1 trade in it
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16:06
The Ancients
the coin that keeps losing value
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21:49
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8090/main.htmlIt looks like the futarchy market to raise the block reward failed.
Now there is a futarchy market to lower the block reward.
If no one accepts these bets in the next day and a half, then the block reward will decrease.
21:57
Tromp
To how much will it be lowered zack?
21:58
Zack
click the link and see for yourself.
it is about 0.16 now
22:12
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
👌nice
22:20
A K
Why did it fail ?
22:21
Zack
Someone accepted the bet, and no one replaced it with a new one.
It failed to show that raising the block reward would be good for the price of veo.
22:22
A K
Ah, failed in a designed way
07:15
Spike Spiegel
""The irony of this situation is that the design of the Synthetix platform is so flawed that it's actually very difficult to realize gains from this kind of attack," said Leibowitz."
08:39
Zack
I guess every time an fake-insecure-oracle gets attacked, it is good news for actually secure oracles like Amoveo
08:43
Eric Arsenault
😳 wow. Keep up the good work Zack.
08:44
Might be a good move...
08:44
Mr Flintstone
whoa they froze the tokens?
08:45
you still have risk if veo dumps enough though right? if I understand correctly
08:46
Zack
yes. but it could be for a very short period of time. A few hours for a single foot ball game
08:47
or even a few minutes I think
08:48
Zack
if you want to do a single slot machine pull, we could probably get the whole thing in less than a milisecond. Especially if everything is co-located in the same part of the internet.
08:49
revealing the secret for the lightning can also determine the result of the slot machine pull.
So it is the same as making a circular lightning payment loop to yourself.
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21:01
Deleted Account
wow, veo wall is almost filleed
21:01
over 600 veo dumped on it haha
21:23
Zack
With signal strength, we measure ping rate and bandwidth separately.
A fast ping means you can load a small message quickly.
Big bandwidth means you can download a movie quickly.
I think liquidity needs to be described similarly.
Amoveo's liquidity has very slow ping, your trades might take a few days to match.
But the bandwidth is pretty good, a large amount can get matched in just a few days.
22:34
A whale put up a 10btc buywall at 0.01
22:41
Sebsebzen
Nice, but we need more exchanges for that to work
10:57
Zack
I made a governance oracle to lower the block reward, and a governance oracle to reduce the cost of making question oracles.
10:58
the futarchy market to lower the block reward successfully showed that lowering the block reward would be good for the price of veo.
11:47
The Ancients
why the hell would u want to hold Amoveo when other coins are launching
11:50
Spike Spiegel
Because in Amoveo veo holders can influence the supply schedule and make an actual impact and use derivatives / utility
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01:42
Mr Flintstone
thanks Stepan! one quick point is that the futarchy market expired and nobody matched the bet, so the process to reduce the block reward via governance oracle has started
01:43
provided nobody bets against the evidence provided by the futarchy market the reward will be lowered in 1 week
01:44
wanted to note cuz you link to the website where the futarchy market was, but since it expired the website is blank
01:45
Stepan Panov
Thanks, i'll edit it!
01:46
Zack
good job Stepan. Thank you for the continued support
01:46
Stepan Panov
Thank you!
02:55
MH
Hello, has amoveo anything related to oracles? (excuse me if it is a dumb question - non tech backgroud here)
03:59
MH
Is there an annoucement channel?
03:59
Zack
on discord there is
04:42
Spike Spiegel
Question: do you have book / resource recommendation for learning about derivatives?
04:42
Zack
I watched part of a lecture series on YouTube focused on derivatives that I thought was pretty good
04:45
Spike Spiegel
Thanks a lot!
04:47
Zack
And if you want to learn more futuristic use cases that are possible now that it is on the blockchain and we don't have to worry about regulations, go to
http://bitcoinhivemind.com/
04:51
Spike Spiegel
I'm reading Larry Harris - Trading and Exchanges Market Microstructure
04:52
Zack
Looks interesting
04:54
A K
also a very good article ))
04:56
Spike Spiegel
"In ancient Rome, the govt outsourced tasks such as tax collection to semi private entities that raised their operating capital by selling shares to the public"
04:58
My basic observation from learning this stuff is that yields are more interesting and giving more info than stock prices
04:58
A K
yields rule the world
04:58
Spike Spiegel
Apple stock price won't tell you anything about time preference / price of money
04:59
A K
most liquid deriv in the world? Eurodollar on CME (futures and options on 3M LIBOR)
05:04
Spike Spiegel
"I Options pricing has earned the status of the rocket science of finance
In reality, currently only a few quants price options for a living. Most of it is commoditized." xD
07:00
Juggy
What do you use nowadays to check the balance in your wallet, I haven't looked at my bal in a while
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22:37
can we have your opinion on how easy it is to build and use amoveo compared to competitors too?#
22:38
Zack
http://localhost:8080/home.html
using Amoveo is as easy as clicking this link.
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04:39
GAhmetO
Isnt qtrade active now?
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16:24
Chief Jarno
new here
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02:10
Sebsebzen
Stinkie linkies prove that 4chan meme magick is real
02:12
Zack might like this video hehe
02:41
Zack
nice video.
If I wrote a book on programming, the sub-sections would be:
1) ergonomics
2) yoga, exercises, physical therapy
3) diet
4) the zone - a programmer's mental state.
5) how to effectively google for answers
Which are the 5 fundamental skills that make up the job of programming.
02:48
Devender
Good one. Thanks for sharing
02:49
That could be a bestseller 😄
07:06
Iridescence
can we get 4chan to meme Amoveo?
07:46
Mike
Nah, they already know about qtrade
07:59
raketralph
By the time 4chan memes about a coin it's time to dump it lmao
09:38
Zack
A while back I fixed a rounding error in the smart contracts.
I am now realizing that this causes signatures on old versions of smart contracts to become invalid.
I will make a branch of the light node that is compatible with the old version.
09:39
Eric Arsenault
Ahhh, that explains it
09:50
using from before this point didn't work. I guess I broke it more than once.
10:02
M Chuck
What is the benefit of having the ‘v label’ on binance info?
10:02
Zack
I never asked for anything from binance. I am not involved at all.
10:21
M Chuck
It’s strange that they did that. Can’t even figure out what it means to be ‘v’
10:40
Zack
Currently, we don't store the actual smart contract. Instead we are just storing the instructions on how to generate the smart contract.
The advantage is that these instructions are much smaller, the disadvantage is that if any aspect of how the contract is built changes, then the signatures become invalid.
It seems like this was a design mistake.
I will upgrade the light node so that we store the compiled contract.
10:58
Zack
I think I am going to rewrite the chalang market contract. currently it is too time optimized, it would be better if it was more space optimized.
And it could be written better so it isn't such a mess for javascript to deal with the compiled code.
13:58
Iridescence
like LINK? lol
10:39
Zack
I programmed a different way of defining functions in chalang, and the resulting compiled code is like 3-6x shorter. It makes it a lot easier to program too, because we can use functions instead of macros everywhere.
This means the code can look a lot more normal, and we can more easily compile from more source languages.
We should do a hard update to add this new opcode to chalang.
10:43
This wont disable any existing opcode, so old contracts are still valid.
If you think this is a bad idea, contact me soon, and we can do a futarchy market to make sure it is a good idea. Otherwise I will assume the community already has consensus that we want to add this new opcode to chalang.
13:12
Zack
If you control one of these addresses, please contact me. There was problems with the P2P derivatives tool, we need to work together to get our money out.
BKY9ceTTuMuJSHPPBwIE2QOyT6pSSPs6iYaBhVbXa30eyO5Kaq+H24YEVeyXvfSwFNXZFwtDzZt3z7hWFZC0FRw=
BJSlvB3yKSQNzGcm6N33HKnoVkQIgfEIyE1G7QYhH1772pbHW/OPQ1BbuFp1GSDYFs4ny7TrCkX/PvsOHN9hHT4=
BI6HnXdyxaxh4mwcCE43pyzLPd3O8VnVvE4YVZPzdwWc779ovO0kF/R05ucTQDkh1g+ZmYJUwRySyN0EuLCM2Yg=
15:08
Crypt Dweller
I remember somebody posted a long and elaborate shill about Amoveo about a year ago, hinting at anons to look into Zack's latest project after AE and Augur. Good job to whoever that was.
15:14
Not saying I would advise this, but would be interesting to see Zack start a thread there and explain to the Link cult why Chainlink is insecure.
15:15
It could even be beneficial to Zack if any of the genuinely smart people who invested in/believed in Link are still there, to challenge Zack's own ideas
15:36
Zack
We will probably not get an official response out of chainlink.
Any public conversation between them and us will be great for Amoveo and terrible for them.
If people want to learn about amoveo, this forum, or reddit, or discord are all great places to ask questions.
Feel free to ask about the chainlink blog post I wrote in the
#off-topic section of discord, or on reddit.
15:37
4chan is all anonymous. Anyone on there claiming to be me is lying.
15:50
Sy
if it wont disable old functions, why hard update? or is hard update not a hard fork? 😅
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20:07
Jack
Have you solved the Oracle problem?
22:00
Zack
if we were only disabling old functions, and not enabling anything new, that would be called a "soft update".
For this update we are only enabling new functions, and not disabling anything existing. This is a kind of hard update.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
23:23
Deleted Account
Hi There, Is VEO PoW only? Any possibility you will enable PoS?
23:24
Zack
Block consensus is pow. But we use futarchy for governance consensus, it is a kind of pos.
23:28
Deleted Account
Do you plan to register a foundation for the development? Or it's going to be your personal project in the foreseeable future?
23:29
Amoveo uses Futarchy to make decisions. I am not in charge.
23:30
Spike Spiegel
also anybody is free to create "open source derivatives using erlang" foundation
23:30
Deleted Account
I am curious about this as Binance has never listed a personal project. From an investor's perspective it would be a big plus if you plan to expand the development team to the scale of a company/foundation.
23:31
Spike Spiegel
bitcoin is personal project
23:31
Deleted Account
in the case of new altcoins
23:33
Zack
Instead of a hierarchical organization, we want to use futarchy to make decisions and to use dominant assurance contracts to raise money and pay for things.
It is not a personal project, and neither do we have a foundation.
It is an anti-hierarchy leaderless decentralized organization.
23:34
I am not interested in getting listed on Binance.
23:34
Deleted Account
Cool Thanks for the responses
23:38
Instinct
They listed ravencoin, no company or foundation
23:53
AAA
Backed by Overstock
23:54
RVN also had a legal opinion drafted by a lawyer "pro bono" , which easily costs 50-200k for altcoin projects
23:55
So I'd say it's a nicely camouflaged project
23:57
Zack
Maybe a sortition chain would be better if we did multiple random samples instead of just 1.
So when a sortition chain closes, it could randomly pay to up to 100 accounts, each receiving 1% of the veo from that chain.
The trade-off is that the on-chain cost per sortition chain increases 100x, but the risk of holding lottery tickets reduces 100x.
Imagine the case where you own 10% of the money in a sortition chain with $100 in it. If there is one sample, you have a 10% chance of getting $100. if there are 100 samples, then you have a 95% chance of getting between $8 and $12.
We could let the creator of the sortition chain decide this as a part of the tx that creates the sortition chain.
00:08
Zack
We can get the cost due to randomness arbitrarily low, just by increasing the worst case on-chain cost only linearly.
00:29
Zack
oh, I think the worst case on-chain settlement cost isn't increasing linearly.
To make the risk decrease Nx, the on-chain cost needs to increase (N*N)x
So 10x less risk of variance costs 100x more on-chain.
So does that mean this strategy does not work?
If multiple random samples does not work, I think this can be used to write a proof that the only way to shard all the resources is with the lottery randomness strategy.
00:30
Such a proof would save a lot of people from wasting time on other strategies for sharding.
01:42
SSDD
Guys just in case you were wondering whether there's a community-ran YouTube channel for all Amoveo-related video content: 👇 👌
01:42
SSDD
Amoveo News 01.07.2019 23:35:51
Hello guys! 👋
We're very pleased to announce the community-ran YouTube channel for all Amoveo-related video content. We're hoping to fill it with keynote recordings, interviews, explainers, and whatever else we can find or make.
Subscribe & don't forget to click the bell 🔔 :
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQFkv4NHElOwMPl972CHjtAWe're kicking things off with this short post-meetup video filmed in Moscow 🇷🇺 .
Watch it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hLzhqV0aboStay tuned for more cool stuff coming soon, and get in touch if you would like to contribute to the channel in any way.
06:43
This means that some other sharding projects are bound to fail.
07:08
K
Is it possible to use amoveo oracles for ethereum dapps?
07:09
Zack
Yes. Amoveo's light node is small. You could write a light node smart contract on ethereum, and then you could verify Merkel proofs from Amoveo. So you could use any state from Amoveo in ethereum contracts.
07:32
Eric Arsenault
Where is this in terms of priorities? Seems like this would be useful for many projects
07:33
Also: why is chainlink perceived to have so much more value vs. Amoveo?
07:34
Zack
chainlink is on coinbase now I think
07:35
there is still an advantage to betting on Amoveo, even if it is possible to use other blockchains.
An attacker might mine fake Amoveo headers to trick the Amoveo light node inside ethereum into thinking that the oracle resolved the other way.
07:36
on Amoveo we can choose to follow the low difficulty side, as long as we all agree together. So you can't break the oracle this way on Amoveo.
07:37
Mr Flintstone
one way to mitigate this is that you can lock up ether for a really long time, but that is expensive
07:38
With the assumption that the true side will eventually be more difficult
08:53
Zack
I rewrote one of the macros that makes up the core of the lisp compiler, now the lisp compiler takes advantage of the new opcode for function definitions. The code generated by the lisp compiler is easily less than 1/3rd the size it was before.
The new macros for function definitions work with all our old tests.
09:06
This makes lisp for smart contracts into more of a possibility.
09:07
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/blob/master/src/lisp/sort.scmOn this page I define the merge sort function. Which is one of the best algorithms for sorting a list of integers.
I wrote the algorithm in macros to run at compile time, and I wrote it as functions to run on the blockchain.
So this page is a good example of just how powerful and expressive the lisp for chalang is.
09:19
I added the disassembled compiled code to that page, so you can see what opcodes are generated from the lisp code.
09:46
VV Enth
Could
We get a link to your chain link
Post
09:55
mm
Zack hi. So i bet in a stablecoin oracle 2 months ago
10:28
Zack
I lost about 2 veo out of the 10 I had locked into the contract with Michal, because the price of veo went down during that time period.
15:18
mm
Did you consider switching to json or make transactions/oracles/etc details more readable than these Erlang data structures?
16:39
K
POS/pow hybrid consensus algo is also a good solution
20:26
Zack
We already use Json for all that. That is how javascript can understand txs and the Api.
We don't have any erlang data structures outside of erlang itself.
04:33
Zack
just in time compilation is when you take the output compiled code from your compiler, and you look for lists of bytes that can be replaced with other shorter lists of bytes without changing the functionality of the software.
08:31
Zack
Amoveo has hard update number 22 coming in about a week, at height 73300.
Here is instructions for updating
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/getting-started/updating.mdThis time we are updating the chalang dependency, so it is important to do
./rebar3 upgradeThe purpose of this update is to enable a different kind of function definition in chalang. This will result in the compiled chalang programs being a lot shorter.
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01:24
veo block reward is y axis, block number is x axis
01:24
Eric Arsenault
Nice!
01:24
Glad someone has been keeping track :)
01:27
Mr Flintstone
it’s in steps and not a smooth decrease like the chart seems to imply tho
06:21
3 miners control 80+ percent of all veo emission
06:24
Zack
it could be one person with 3 accounts
06:25
Deleted Account
of course
06:28
so where is decentralization?
06:29
i'm not sure this situation is good for VEO
06:30
Zack
do you think the miners are going to try and double-spend?
06:31
Deleted Account
i think that people do not want to invest in veo due to its centralization
06:32
Zack
I want to get the derivatives tool working very well.
I don't see how getting more investment will get us closer to this goal.
06:36
Deleted Account
there are a lot of centralized derivatives already
06:36
see traditional exachanges
06:37
Zack
those exchanges stay centralized, even if they grow.
If Amoveo grew, then its hashpower would become more distributed.
06:41
Deleted Account
I suppose such a centralization can result in fork of Amoveo
12:20
C
What is the closest analogue to the Ethereum's ERC-20 explosion that pairs well with an oracle? DACs?
12:31
To kickstart the process, could we create a market betting on the existence of a DAC? Eg p = DAC with X VEO is created by Y date for the purpose of feature Z. And then bet against it happening in hopes of getting ppl to create and fund the DAC.
12:32
It seems we've had success with markets in the past, but not DACs. So this could help us clear that hurdle
12:39
Zack
betting on the creation of a dac doesn't make any sense.
Just bet in the dac directly.
17:37
Ben
pleas ban pAUL IOD for post spam/scam links
18:12
Spike Spiegel
Say I have $100 worth of VEO and I want to fund DAC - does somebody have a list of possible projects?
18:18
⌚
Zack, are bitibu users money lost at this point?
snaketh4x0r invited snaketh4x0r
18:30
Spike Spiegel
Snake has questions about this topic / how Amoveo solved this problem:
18:33
snaketh4x0r
Yes please
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21:40
Deleted Account
does amoveo have a token? where is it listed?
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21:51
Deleted Account
you have enough knowledge about amoveo?
22:38
Zack
I never talked to anyone at bitbu . I have no idea
22:40
⌚
So there is nothing we can do? Guess the money is lost at this point..
22:42
Zack
Did you even talk to anyone at bitbu?
22:42
You could complain on their twitter
23:06
They said they tried to contact u (probably not)
23:07
And they deleted all their social accounts now
01:17
Bo Smubo
I want sell 20 veo
01:17
How much is the price now?
06:04
Beejae
Hi! May I ask what the network hashrate is?
16:24
Zack
I taught the lisp compiler about tail call optimization, and I taught it to not include definitions of functions that aren't used.
17:18
Zack
now lisp has useful error messages if any macro or function definition has the wrong number of inputs.
06:00
Zack
I have the just in time compiler feed into itself over and over until it can't optimize the compiled code any more.
I taught it a bunch of simpler rules about how binaries can be simplified without changing their functionality.
Now the compiler combines all these simple rules in ways I wouldn't have realized, and the resulting bytecode is nearly as short as I could write by hand.
06:01
Normally I have to spend time thinking about how to make sure tail call optimization will work.
Now the compiler is finding all these tail call optimization opportunities in my code I didn't realize were available.
06:02
It reminds me of programming in prolog
06:03
maybe I should rewrite the just in time compiler in prolog, instead of building a messy prolog inside erlang.
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11:37
I see that the two reviews playstore about the wallet app are complaints
11:38
Is it safe to send coins to the android wallet or I should consider other options?
12:01
Zack
you should use the light node that I wrote
12:04
standard let syntax, accepting multliple variable definitions in a single list
12:07
Lisp macros are so powerful
12:29
Beejae
I actually already went for the web wallet when I didn't get my question answered asap
12:29
Anyways, I'm having issues with mining
12:30
Oops...screenshots aren't allowed here
12:30
My miner is saying Pool is offline and also low worker difficulty assigned to my worker
12:30
Please how do I solve this
12:34
Zack
which pool are you using?
12:34
Beejae
Can we chat in PM?
12:34
Already sent you some screenshots
12:36
looks like veopool is finding less blocks than normal
12:36
Beejae
I got the same error with amoveopool
12:37
Zack
BGJJ08FDDFCQ8w3G3AbrL/qjEQJXWZsLqIqrmyoH3Vhy709+UlkJLgA2KarZTfXQg5E46jd918Nl9AkexDUKNzI=
This pool is finding all the blocks
12:38
Beejae
Is this a pool?
12:38
Zack
Thank you for mentioning this Israel
12:38
Beejae
How do I configure my miner to connect to this pool?
12:39
Beejae
Could you please check your PMs? Please
12:44
O K
There is a getting-started page on the
amoveopool.com webpage
12:47
is Amoveo profitable to mine yet?
13:47
Zack
So it looks like some fpga miners switched to a different blockchain, and I guess they were controlling almost all the hashpower on sys pool. So nothing is broken.
This is good news for miners, since the difficulty is dropping.
15:28
Deleted Account
Could someone please explain amoveo in simple terms?
15:44
Beejae
Wow! What a shitty community this is! I came here to ask for help and not a single soul could help. Now my rig rental is wasting away!
15:46
Zack
Are you saying that OK lacks a soul?
Is there something wrong with the instructions that he linked you to?
15:48
Sy
Everyone who has been mining before can easily Mine amoveo, dont blame your lack of knowledge on us...
15:50
If you rented hashrate and not the rig itself you won't be able to mine veo anyway
15:55
Beejae
So y'all can respond now! How nice
15:55
I have been mining before...
15:56
Zack
Ok linked you to instructions 3 hours ago.
You have not asked further questions since then.
15:56
Beejae
But I didn't find it written anywhere that renting hashrate only wouldn't work
16:03
Sy
You do know what a coin algo is?
16:07
Sy
And what algo did you rent?
16:07
Do you really believe that if amoveo were using BTC algo, the hashrate wouldn't be way different?
16:08
With all the ASICS...
16:08
No coin writes into its instructions "by the way, if you can't properly research this coin, it's not BTC sha256, don't rent hashpower"
16:09
But back to your statement, yes your rented hashrate is wasted either way
16:10
Beejae
"Amoveo uses a single round SHA256 for PoW, unlike Bitcoin that uses double"
I got that from your website, did I need further explanation on which algo rig to rent?
16:10
Then configure it right
16:11
Renting hashrate and saying you are a miner is like sync DJing...
16:12
Wondering where you rented that hashrate tho, I only know of some FPGAs and veo sure isn't on their top list
16:12
Beejae
I rented on MRR
16:13
Sy
There is no single sha on mrr
16:14
Beejae
No need discussing this further...my rental is wasted already
16:14
They have SHA256 and SHA256d
16:15
Zack
Amoveo headers aren't even formatted the same as bitcoin headers.
They are significantly smaller.
An amoveo hash is about 1/4 as much work as a bitcoin hash.
16:17
you must have a different list than i do...
16:32
K
What do companies even get for renting their hash power
16:32
They can make more money just mining for themselves
16:34
Sy
usually no, you rent out your rig slightly (or highly, depending on the algo) above what you would get mining
16:35
you mine for yourself until someone rents it anyway and ppl rent it because they think that they have found a hidden gem that is worth the premium
16:35
sanket
Lol. better have some info before trying to rent a mrr.
16:35
Sy
basicly you point your rig onto mrr and configure your own pool there until it gets overwritten by a renter, they proxy your connection
16:36
K
But people will get more coins by straight market buying them then by mining
16:36
Sy
i used that site back when it was new and had like >10 algos 😁
16:36
K
Same goes for amoveo
16:36
Sy
yep, thats where my favorite saying comes in, ppl are stupid
its the same with mining a coin with a loss because it might be worth something later...just shut down your rigs and buy it ffs
16:37
stupid / lazy...its hard to tell which one is accurate, some for example say its easier to pay the electric bill than buy coins, even tho they loose money
16:38
K
I feel like a lot of these companies are scams. I remember a while back there were many mining rental companies that only let people mine large caps
16:39
Wouldn’t be surprised if they were just buying coins straight from market, giving some to the miner and keeping a fraction
16:39
Sy
there is a huge difference between companies who rent their own hashrate (some legit, some scams) or mrr - all hashrate is user controlled
16:39
you register an account, select the algo, point your rig to their address and define the price, thats what gets you into the list
16:40
they then escrow the renting fee, they can monitor your uptime so its kinda easy to tell if you scammed or not, if your rig was up most of the time (or all of the time? dunno i bet it has changed) you get your money, if not you get partial
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07:23
Zack
Is it even possible to have a merkelized abstract syntax tree, and to support closures in the same language?
It seems like for a MAST we need all the functions to be defined before the contract is executed.
Functions can return functions as an output, but only if it is one of the pre-existing functions.
But maybe we can combine the pre-existing functions with environment variables computed at run-time, and store them together in variables.
Wouldn't that give us closures?
07:26
Spike Spiegel
btw why not Lisp for smart contracts?
07:26
Zack
Amoveo chalang has a lisp compiler. I am thinking of adding closures to it.
07:26
you can make amoveo smart contracts in lisp.
15:17
Deleted Account
no, I dont think I do. 😕
15:45
Zack
the hard update is in the next hour or so
19:01
about 70% efficiency. Hand written code in assembly wouldn't be much shorter.
20:41
Zack
I tried writing it by hand, it was longer.
And I can't find any ways to make the compiled output shorter.
So now the lisp version isn't just easier to read/write/ and edit, it is also likely to be shorter than hand written assembly code.
21:34
Zack
I am thinking of writing a compiler from either javascript or python syntax. Now that we have let*, it would be fairly straight forward.
01:28
Zack
the barrier to entry of writing smart contracts has fallen so much
02:40
Zack
let* still doesn't work inside functions.
but it probably will soon.
02:46
Spike Spiegel
something python like would be awesome
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21:30
Deleted Account
Think that would be great.
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08:45
Some Guy
Hey everyone I’ve just set up a chainlink node and I’m looking for info on how I can add the Amoveo adapter
09:00
Zack
Why would Amoveo ever interface with a scam project like Chainlink?
09:02
Spike Spiegel
btw, what's the current annualised inflation rate?
09:05
Zack
13 new veo per day.
13*365 / 66000 is about 7%
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15:30
Deleted Account
ok. but you plan to invest in it now?
18:09
Zack
We can drop down and write raw assembly in the middle of a lisp program.
I think you can't do that in solidity
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20:41
Some Guy
Agreed. It seems like they would mesh well together. I figured someone would have made one by now.
22:49
Zack
That doesn't make any sense. They are both oracle projects. Why would they use each other.
22:52
Avi 🌪
Very interesting.
22:54
Eric Arsenault
Yeah, I don't quite get it
22:58
MKUltra
Haha, amoveo is getting traction and people are starting to try and take the project and mold it into their own/promote their own agenda.
I agree with
Zack LA RESISTANCE!!
22:58
Zack
Blockchains that have betting may want to import Amoveo's data to use amoveo as an Oracle.
Chainlink is only for oracles. It is not a betting platform. It does not make sense to put an amoveo light node inside of chainlink.
23:00
Spike Spiegel
It doesn't matter: see google employee did just an article about using oracles and chainlink and Chainlink marketing team is saying it's Google partnership in "blockchain push"
23:00
And right now Chainlink is most valuable ERC20 token
23:00
Zack
A lot of people will lose a lot of money, and I don't want to be associated with that at all.
23:00
Avi 🌪
Sir please reconsider partnership
23:01
MKUltra
Wait 5 years and let’s see who’s still talking then
23:01
Avi 🌪
Prophecy says 1,000 dollars by end of year.
23:01
Spike Spiegel
I've already lost money on Amoveo because I thought that futarchy will reduce the issuance to prevent price from tanking
23:02
Zack
I would rather just keep posting my critique of chainlink. When they die, hopefully people will remember amoveo and how we knew it would turn out.
23:03
MKUltra
They won’t give up, never
23:04
Zack
I think this is called astroturphing.
When you build a fake grass-roots movement.
23:04
Avi 🌪
First zap, then mobius, witnet now amoveo... eventually they all fade into the shitcoin void or bend the knee
23:04
I'm surprised you can't see through the shitposting as a developer
23:06
Zack
See this "bend the knee" comment.
I am pretty sure chainlink hires people to go on forums and copy paste from templates designed to get anyone to announce a partnership.
23:07
Spike Spiegel
tbh it makes just a little bit of sense that:
1. Smart contracts are pretty useless without oracles
2. You have to introduce oracles for ETH based smart contracts in order to make them useful
3. Chainlink promises to deliver that and it "works" and people are using it.
Secure Amoveo oracle -> ETH bridge would be actually very beneficial for Amoveo as mETH heads won't touch anything not ETH based except bitcoin or maybe dogecoin
23:07
That's the redpill, the truth
23:07
Even if it would cure cancer people won't even download the node or try
23:08
Avi 🌪
You're like wolpert the hyperledger co founder, shittalking about the project when he had no info about it, only to announce he's supporting it and buying some few months later. Only difference is that no one knows what you achieved for blockchain
23:10
Zack
importing amoveo to eth to be used for a betting platform would make sense.
But chainlink doesn't make betting tools. They are only for oracles.
If eth users could get free data from Amoveo, why would they pay any fee to chainlink? How could that possibly benefit the price of LINK?
Their only objective here is to announce a partnership. Not build anything useful for Amoveo.
23:11
Avi 🌪
Oracle is the missing key to a betting dApp
23:11
Free data? That's cute
23:12
Friend don't take it too seriously, no one really know what amoveo is, let alone thinking Chainlink is actively searching for partnerships
23:13
That's delusion level, and as a link marine I know what delusion is - trust me
23:18
Spike Spiegel
@TokenizedCare is very honest and concious here. linkmarines are ~little~ delusional but Nazarov delivered 28x returns from ICO price
23:19
If good projects have token thats constantly going down and very little independent community activity then the source code doesn't even matter as cryptos are social phenomenon
23:19
Zack
The only kind of success I have respect for is when people deliver a useful product.
23:19
Spike Spiegel
Chainlink delivered
23:19
Both product and price
23:20
Meanwhile you are deliberately making UX so hard to use to prevent people from using it.
23:20
Spike Spiegel
level 4.2 oracle systems like chainlink are more expensive and less secure yet people are using it
23:20
Because it delivers ETH price oracle
23:21
Anything else doesn't exist
23:21
Zack
Derivatives are trillions of dollars. No blockchain project has come near to being used for derivatives yet.
23:22
Spike Spiegel
MakerDAO delivers ~$100M worth of stablecoins
23:22
Community asked for minimal marketing like asking the DeFi pulse to include amoveo
23:23
Zack
100 million is less than 1/100 000th of the size of the derivatives market we are all aiming for here.
Don't get distracted by crumbs when there is a bigger prize.
23:24
Spike Spiegel
Yeah, 100% success or nothing
23:25
People are moving from MakerCDP to cheaper solutions - current rate is about 17.5% and Compound offers lower interest - offering similar product with better price would drive a lot of volume to the project
23:26
Zack
In a couple days a hard update will activate to let us make much smaller smart contracts.
23:26
Then I'm going to update channel state to store he raw contraxt.
23:27
This allows for 1 click migration from one platform into another to save 16.5 -> 12.54
23:27
If somebody could offer Stablecoins cheaper than 10% people would migrate
23:28
The interface has to be similar to this
23:28
Zack
This is because some channels of mine got locked up and became uncloseable. The person who bet against me disappeared, and I can't generate the source for the contract.
Fixing this part of usability is critical for delivering a good derivatives experience.
23:29
Spike Spiegel
That's actually good. When it will be deployed it would be easier to create such product?
23:29
What about some DAC for creating beautiful interface?
23:29
Zack
Making it beautiful is the last step
23:29
Spike Spiegel
BTW do you know that you can show users a mockup + concept without any code and sometimes it's enough to close the sale? ( assuming real code will be delivered ? )
23:30
Do you have necessary skills to create such designs?
23:30
Zack
Sure, that is is a great strategy if you are unsure what the people want.
But the market for derivatives is so big. We don't have any doubts about what people want.
23:31
Spike Spiegel
I have. I don't know who are you talking about "we"
23:31
Regulated institutions won't use untested project code because they may suffer from penalties for that
23:32
HNWI / blockchain intersection is quite small
23:33
Zack
Using state channels for derivatives is innovative. It will take some more time to completely be sure of how the data moves around during the process of derivatives.
Once we know the steps and intermediate data structures exactly, then we can optimize to make it pretty.
23:33
Spike Spiegel
I have strong experience showing that even if you build a better mouse trap it isn't worth much without marketing / sales
23:33
MKUltra
This is called selling snake oil. Plenty of projects did this
23:34
Spike Spiegel
It isn't bad if you know that you can deliver.
Say you build cat photo sharing app in Ruby on Rails - if you aren't doing rocket science you can be pretty sure that you can build what you sold
23:34
Zack
Yes, you need both.
But generally you want the product first.
It is very hard to sell vapor ware in comparison to selling a useful product.
23:35
Spike Spiegel
If you buy custom furniture you are shown blueprints before you buy. Is this vapurware / snake oil?
It depends if the seller can build it
23:35
I have no doubt that Amoveo based smart contracts are flexible enough to implement such flow
23:35
Zack
Everyone else already did this for us anyway.
There are so many blockchain projects throwing out mockups. We can learn what we need by watching.
23:36
Spike Spiegel
Non-technical people won't believe that technology is real until they will be shown the interface and data they can understand / grasp. ( that's why excel is so popular = it's very visible and explicit )
Zackatron 9000 invited Zackatron 9000
23:37
Zack
I don't see advertising towards non tech people as a good goal at our current stage
23:39
Spike Spiegel
you can advertise towards rich people already using crypto based derivatives - maker CDP holders
23:39
you can verify on-chain that they are rich and you can guess that they have technical sophistication to use smart contracts
23:39
Zack
Development isn't limited by cash.
Getting investment at this stage won't increase our odds of success.
23:39
Spike Spiegel
I suggest joining DeFi channel
23:40
Those people are open to new ideas and they would be happy to try even command line tools
23:40
Zack
Getting people to invest at this point would only increase the potential losses if we should fail, without benefiting amoveo in any way.
23:41
[Riki]
No one mentioned investing. Trying.
23:42
Spike Spiegel
not to invest, just to show them and maybe discuss
23:42
Zack
We aren't short on testers either. Every time something needs testing, I can easily find enough people.
23:42
Spike Spiegel
so what's the current price for stablecoin?
23:42
If there isn't market formed it means not enough people trying it
23:43
Zack
I just lost like $2000 because I can't close some channels.
It is a good thing that not many people are using channels with stablecoins at the current moment.
23:43
Spike Spiegel
Skin in the game
23:44
Zack
Soon I will make it more secure, so funds won't get lost, and then we can push for more people to use the stablecoin tool.
23:44
Spike Spiegel
Those people love to play with fire
23:44
Don't be afraid to talk to people
23:44
Zack
The purpose of having people test is so we can realize what needs to be fixed.
At this point it is already clear what needs to be fixed, so we don't need testing done today.
23:45
Spike Spiegel
I need stablecoins market with prices displayed somewhere
23:45
Avi 🌪
Transfer and Call function is useful - look up ERC677
23:47
Zack
I should ban tokenized, right?
23:48
Spike Spiegel
Pls don't - he is linkmarine but he is asking good questions and not trolling
23:48
Avi 🌪
I just provided you a way to transfer data
23:50
Zack
This comment makes it clear he has no idea what amoveo is. He is here to convince us to announce a partnership.
23:55
Looking backwards, he didn't ask a single question, let alone a good one.
Tokenized is only here to tell us to announce a partnership. I doubt he knows what a derivative or an Oracle even is.
00:03
Avi 🌪
I wish nothing but success to your project, I just know that you are misinformed what Chainlink is because of intentional misinformation flowing the internet to keep investors out to maximize gains. It's one of the more credible projects but you are blinded by investor's manipulation. Which is fine. Unless you are a developer. Than it's a bit awkward.
00:03
Sebsebzen
In the end, this technology is permissionless, if he wants to write a Chainlink adapter, thats fine
00:04
Avi 🌪
True and it's a key point: it has to be open source to be adopted and have interoperability
00:04
Sebsebzen
I think that's also the philosophy of Amoveo
00:04
You can write own bridges
00:04
Avi 🌪
Looks like it yeah
00:04
Sebsebzen
Even if Zack doesn't approve
00:07
Avi 🌪
Will definitely age well. Keep it online
00:47
x
sometimes i wonder are all erc20 tokens scams? is there one that is not?
00:52
Instinct
Just depends if u think value will accrue on subcurrencies I guess. Most if not all seem useless, just a way of raising funds & putting unnecessary friction in terms of product usability
00:55
Zack
economically speaking, if you split up the value on a blockchain onto 2 non-fungible subcurrencies, they will both be more volatile in comparison to if the blockchain only had 1 big fungible currency.
and sub-currencies are contradictory with important scalability designs like channels, state channels, and sortition chains.
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06:14
MKUltra
Zack any way that you see Amoveo collaborating with Zen Protocol ?
Although they raised money, it’s a similar project targeting the decentralized Finance/Derivatives market
06:16
They have the technical chops over at Zen Protocol to rival most anyone else’s team in crypto.
Doesn’t have to an official partnership sort of thing
06:17
Would be nice to see the two teams collaborate a bit though
06:26
Zack
I visited zen protocols office before they launched.
Nice people, but I think their oracle design is not going to work.
06:30
MKUltra
Well it doesn’t all have to work.
06:30
Amoveo has oracles that work right?
06:31
If the ZP p2pDEX works well then we need to seriously think about using Amoveo contracts eh?
06:32
I just want a non KYC required P2P financial exchange where I can trade derivatives with other users.
That’s all I care about
06:34
If people want to build layer two whatever on top of it to comply with their local jurisdiction regulations.... whatever, fine.
But that’s not the core product offering
06:37
What language is Amoveo being written in ?
ZP has F* and F#
06:38
I’m picking up some F# on the side, I guess I should the same for Amoveo
06:40
Zack
I like the people on that team. I would love to work with them.
But I don't see any way to productively work together on anything.
06:42
MKUltra
The produce some amazing front end work.
06:42
Maybe it makes sense to trade talents a bit
06:42
Zack
zen protocol smart contracts are on-chain. it is not scalable, and it doesn't prevent front running.
Anyway, we aren't yet at the stage where we would focus on a pretty front end.
06:44
I have a feeling that hiring blockchain developers to write javascript code isn't cost-effective.
06:45
I wonder if their front-end was even made in-house anyway?
Maybe we can ask them who they hired to build it.
06:51
MKUltra
It was made in house
06:52
Eleanor Bebe, she’s a front end judo master
06:53
She’s much much more than that, but yeah she did the design
07:00
Mr Flintstone
what’s preventing you from posting trade offers to the website in the pinned message?
07:05
MKUltra
Haven’t been paying attention till recently.
@zack how would I go about selling a 0.25 BTC European call option?
3 month term
strike at $12,500
Premium $281.25
How would this work ?
07:10
Zack
I recommend waiting about a few days or a week.
Once hard update 22 activates in about a day, I am going to change how the smart contract is stored in channel state to prevent some failure modes, and it should be more stable after that point.
07:11
Zack
but if you are curious, here is a light node that you could use for making the smart contract
http://139.59.144.76:8080/home.htmlIt allows you to create a new oracle if one does'nt exist for your question already.
07:13
but please consider waiting a few days for a more stable product
07:15
Mr Flintstone
you want this stable in btc? i.e you receive the premium in btc terms at the end in return for selling the option?
07:15
MKUltra
Looks like we need some tutorial docs here for pseudo noobs, video tutorials for easily grasping the power of the platform. But ok, let’s wait a couple days and then we will do a trade
07:16
I want to receive the premium in BTC and settle it in BTC
07:16
Zack
first I want to get the tool stable before I try to attract too many users.
07:16
that way we minimize how much people lose from bugs
07:16
I lost like 11 veo.
07:17
MKUltra
Good idea. I was only going to offer as much as I could lose
07:17
Mr Flintstone
it has to settle in veo, but you can change the amount of veo received based on how btc moves so it is stable in btc value
07:17
MKUltra
Oh interesting, how?
07:21
Mr Flintstone
you can program the scalar oracle to multiply the value it outputs by a function of the % change of BTC
07:22
Zack
or you ask the oracle for the price of BTC in VEO.
07:23
Mr Flintstone
probably a concrete example is most useful for learning about how it works
07:23
MKUltra
I get what you’re saying. But concrete examples and video tutorials are always best
07:23
Mr Flintstone
A = Liverpool beats Tottenham in the champions league final; P = the price of USD in veo from 0 to 0.04 on June 2nd, 2019, at 12:00 GMT; if A happens, return P * 1024 / 0.04; otherwise return 0
07:24
MKUltra
Or for this sort of thing a Google Sheet
07:24
Mr Flintstone
here is a scalar oracle that lets someone sell sports betting type trades that stay the same value in USD
07:24
you can see how the output changes based on how P moves
07:26
0 is false, which means whoever bet on the event to not happen wins all the veo. but if the event happens, the output will change so that for whoever bet on true, they will receive their initial bet in the same USD value as when they bet it
07:26
if veo sells off, the number of veo they receive goes up
07:27
MKUltra
Interesting. Let’s figure out how to do the same for BTC Difficulty
07:28
Or BTC network hashrate so miners can purchase options on mining difficulty if they wanted to
07:29
Zack
we could just do binary options at a particular difficulty level.
07:31
MKUltra
That would work.
Total network hashrate is best.
I think you’d honestly want an Oracle that showed the network hashrate for all SHA256 coins and that is what you’d want to base your binary option on
07:32
Mr Flintstone
A = btc difficulty from 0 to 20 T on July 31; B = the price of BTC in USD from 0 to 50,000 on July 31; P = the price of BTC in veo from 0 to 200 on July 31; return 1024 * (P / 200) / (B / 50,000) / (A / 20)
07:32
this is an oracle for a contract that goes up in value linearly with the BTC difficulty, and stays the same value in BTC In case veo dumps
07:33
MKUltra
I just want to hedge against “new machines coming online” or a competitor setting up such a low cost operation that older generation hardware can be used to mine effectively
07:33
Mr Flintstone
So miners can hedge their difficulty exposure
07:34
you get paid 1% more btc per the difficulty going up 1% I think
07:34
Zack
maybe it is better to ask about (price / hashrate), so they can hedge for their earning potential
07:34
Mr Flintstone
sure, if they are not btc denominated we can do that too
07:34
Zack
if price and hashrate both double, it is like nothing happened
07:35
MKUltra
This is true
07:35
Then mining just becomes like farming
07:36
At scale with enough liquidity to perfectly hedge
07:36
Miners could generate a return and not be as exposed to price/difficulty fluctuations
07:37
Zack
yeah, that would be nice.
This could be a good initial goal. a use for hedging that is relevant to a lot of people in the cryptocurrency community.
07:39
MKUltra
I think it’s a great goal and a market that miners would love to “make” cause it can help hedge their operations
07:40
Let the speculators take the other sides of those hedges. I don’t care who takes the other side
07:40
Zack
but for now I am going to focus on fixing the smart contracts so they wont lose any funds again.
07:40
Mr Flintstone
I edited this, I think this is closer to being right now
07:41
maybe I flipped the logic somewhere
07:41
MKUltra
That’s Smart
07:43
I’m excited!! Keep up the good work. I’ll start putting some money at risk once
Zack says it’s safe
08:29
Eric Arsenault
Who would take the other side of that bet though?
08:31
Zack
currently the people owning the hardware are the same people as who are doing the investing.
He is suggesting we use financial derivatives, so that people who want to only participate in one of the two activities without the other would have the opportunity to make that choice.
08:55
Eric Arsenault
Right so I could get mining exposure, and a miner could hedge
09:00
Or in my case I would sell a call option....generating some extra revenue Today from the premium and knowing that you might buy it from me at some point in the future if you exercise that option
If I were able to get my OPEX costs low enough and during particularly volatile price movements, I may even be able to sell call options where the premium would cover my OPEX in its entirety, thus allowing me to hold on to asset (albeit as option collateral) into the future while still covering my expenses today.
09:01
Also I get to defer a taxable event of a full sale of the commodity
09:01
Defer until the term of the option expires at a minimum
09:03
Mike
Selling calls have unlimited losses yeah?
09:04
MKUltra
Not if you own the underlying asset
09:04
This is a covered call
09:04
Zack
I think the kind of derivative that amoveo offers is called a "forwards" contract?
a state channel can only enforce rules over money that is locked inside of it. Amoveo smart contracts are fully collateralized.
09:06
Mike
Wouldn’t theta on Bitcoin option contracts be ridiculous? I don’t really see people buying your calls
09:07
MKUltra
There’s open interest on a LedgerX right now
09:07
What’s Theta? Is that the premium?
09:07
Mike
Ok, I havent looked into crypto option in a while
09:08
MKUltra
Is time decay much different in American vs Euro options?
09:08
Zack
miners already have this risk just by buying hardware, and yet people buy hardware anyway.
09:09
Mike
Are we talking about options on Bitcoin price or mining difficulty?
09:09
MKUltra
Yes hardware buying is risky business. Mining is risky.
Unless you have cheap power then it’s easy
09:09
I would say price first
09:10
Difficulty is a completely separate animal
09:10
I wouldn’t touch that any time soon
09:10
Mike
Difficulty markets seem interesting but yeah it’d be rather complicated
09:12
MKUltra
There would be so much cash sloshing around that market
09:12
It sure would never be boring
09:12
Mike
LedgerX seems rather rudimentary, we could do better. Doesn’t seem like I can post pictures in this chat anymore?
09:13
MKUltra
LedgerX is new and for retail traders, I think ErisX is more complex
09:14
But LedgerX recently receive permission in the US to settle those options in BTC
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09:14
MKUltra
So that’s pretty dope
09:14
Deleted Account
Thanks for the invitation
@mkultra007
09:17
MKUltra
Zack did you fork the Bitcoin Blockchain for Amoveo? Or build it mostly from scratch? Or something else entirely
09:18
Zack
I wrote amoveo from scratch.
09:19
I got ideas by looking at other projects, but then I typed it up myself.
09:20
MKUltra
Very impressive Zack, although I expected nothing less
09:21
So easiest way to obtain Amoveo? I guess mine it?
09:21
Zack
qtrade probably
09:21
MKUltra
Ok qtrade it is
09:24
I have some FPGAs though, what’s the mining algorithm here again?
09:24
Zack
it is custom for Amoveo
09:25
not compatible with bitcoin miners .
09:25
MKUltra
Lol, good that was smart
09:25
Has anyone written optimized Amoveo miners
09:26
Zack
there is an fpga mining channel in discord. one guy wrote software for several different fpga and he hosts them on github
09:26
MKUltra
Cool I’ll check it out
09:27
Do you have discord link ?
09:51
Mr Flintstone
amoveo contracts are fully funded on both sides, so losses are not uncapped for selling options
10:31
MKUltra
Has there been any thought to creating a wrappedBTC or similar product?
I’m have to understand exactly how that mechanically works, I’m just wondering if the people in this community have considered it ?
10:32
Zack
no, amoveo doesn't store any smart contract state on-chain. that is how we can be so scalable.
We can only have financial derivatives, not subcurrencies.
10:35
MKUltra
Ok thanks Zack.
So eventually when Amoveo becomes a household name for the fintechies, Amoveo will need a central repository displaying the order book?
10:35
There will be regulatory risk there of getting shut down
10:36
Not the chain but the website hosting the order book
10:36
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8090/main.htmlThis website is open source. it isn't much more difficult to set up than a full node.
And if there are multiple running, you can post your trades in all of them.
10:37
pairs of people can make amoveo bets with each other over email
10:37
you could post a bet offer on 4chan for anyone to accept.
10:38
you could embed a bet offer in the least significant bits of each fourier encoded section of a digital image, and post it on twitter, so people with the right decoders could see your bet offer and accept it.
10:38
MKUltra
Cool. So just leverage the existing infrastructure as the host for the order book
10:39
Build a scraper to compile them if you wanted or there was profit potential in doing so
10:40
Zack
legally speaking, hosting raw data for people to read is a very different thing from running a financial market.
10:40
this website I wrote, it isn't participating in any of the contracts financially. it is just displaying data.
10:41
in most places it probably wont get regulated as a financial website.
10:41
MKUltra
Yes, you’re not profiting. Except you own the coin.
10:41
But still not a big deal and right now, it really doesn’t matter
10:41
Zack
I should set it up so it runs on all the nodes by default
10:42
MKUltra
Only matters when you’re big enough
10:43
You could, so every node would serve up the website book of trades through that port?
10:44
Zack
that is one option
10:45
MKUltra
I like using the existing communication channels and public websites as the host
10:45
Zack
it is a simple way to start
14:20
Sebsebzen
Wow, this is actually the real world use case for oracles that’s right at hand
15:16
Hello Administrator，is the project manager there?
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15:35
Muhammad Daffa
can i pm you?
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23:42
SSDD
Here is some Amoveo-related news, guys👌
03:23
Sebsebzen
Great write up! Love these newsletters
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15:17
Deleted Account
chalang lisp is interesting! 😁
15:18
Deleted Account
Lisp is a programming language isn't it?
15:19
Zack
yes, it is one of the oldest languages.
15:19
about as old as fortran
17:42
Alexey Kanakhin
Also it's main language for EMACS operating system 😂
17:49
Zack
I do all Amoveo development using EMACS.
17:56
Sy
i learned java back in 2002 with emacs...its nice if you are used to it
17:56
Zack
I use VI key bindings so that I don't injure my pinky finger
17:58
Alexey Kanakhin
You have Intel 8086 in your IBM PC, right?
18:05
Zack
Tech I use for Amoveo, and when it was invented
erlang: 1986
emacs: 1985
lisp: 1958
forth: 1970
javascript: 1995
18:14
Alexey Kanakhin
Why did you make this choise? You often say "how will amoveo go, if I leave (die/ill or something)?". There are such small ammount of developers on this old (but maybe, reliable) languages now (except javascript, of course). Who will maintain the project after you? It looks that Amoveo and Zack Hess is tied together forever.
18:17
Zack
Erlang is a very small language. If you can already do functional style programming, then you can learn it in a week or so.
You don't need emacs to maintain or develop on Amoveo. it is just what I use to edit text.
Most developers will never write a smart contract for Amoveo.
You can customize them so much by changing how you ask the oracle question.
There will be a handful of contracts that get used over and over.
18:19
if I die before we reach product market fit, it is going to be tough for you guys to recover without me.
But once we have reached product market fit, I think there will be enough financial incentive to sustain Amoveo even if I died.
18:20
lisp is the perfect language for writing a compiler for other languages.
Now that we have lisp and lisp macros, it isn't much more work to support other kinds of syntax for making smart contracts.
We already have a macro for python-type function definitions for example.
18:24
Alexey Kanakhin
That's good that you have an answer, and this choises was reasonable.
It is long road to reach product/market fit. It looks like 95% of cryptocurrency marker is just speculation and asians' casino.
18:47
Zack
let me get the right document for that
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18:57
Zack
you can use amoveo to make financial derivative type contracts. We don't store any contract state on-chain.
19:31
Zack
you need to restart your node to get it to be in sync again.
19:34
SSDD
Here's a step-by-step guide on how you can raise funds for your project on Amoveo 😎💵👌
19:54
Deleted Account
This channel could use a bot that deletes every message that contains a
t.me URL (or similar).
02:52
Spike Spiegel
How to describe stablecoins?
02:54
1. Interest per year paid to issuer
2. Margin requirement ( explicit range where stablecoin would have $1 price if USD stablecoin )
3. Duration
03:19
Mr Flintstone
maybe include what the collateral is, other than that looks good
06:29
Spike Spiegel
in Amoveo one cannot use any other collateral than Veo itself
06:30
So the strategy: create comparison between stablecoins using those terms, then explain why stablecoins based on veo are objectively better and convert cdp users
06:31
Mr Flintstone
it seems to me that CDP users are gaining leverage on their eth rather than getting stability
06:32
but, one thing that people with DAI do is lend it out for like 8% APR on compound
06:33
my guess is that you would get much more interest than that by holding veo stablecoins
06:35
Spike Spiegel
if such hypothesis is true then you just have to provide cheapest long ETH exposure
06:35
basic theory is that if technology X is 10x better then technology Y then people will use it even if it's less popular / harder to use / no marketing
06:36
Mr Flintstone
if you could hold dollars on veo for 8% a month, vs holding dollars on ethereum for 8% a year, which one would you do?
06:36
it is of course not apples to apples, but the increased interest rate on veo should compensate you for those risks
06:37
Spike Spiegel
holding dollars on ETH pays ~8% per annum
06:38
i.e cost is actually negative
06:38
Mr Flintstone
yes that is what I mean, you make money by holding dollars on eth
06:38
same thing on amoveo
06:39
Spike Spiegel
yes, if you offer ceiling(ETH stablecoin rates) + some premium people will switch
06:39
People won't switch before
06:39
Mr Flintstone
the premium is so much higher it’s silly
06:39
Spike Spiegel
It's just basic economical principle, people seek yield and "show me the money"
06:40
I can invest $100 to try - but the problem is that due to the design rates aren't public and one has to dig into otc market
06:40
And it cost money / time as well
06:41
Mr Flintstone
I’ll offer you or anyone dollars on amoveo giving 2% per week returns
06:50
Zack
please wait about a week to make any p2p contracts. I am updating the market smart contract so it wont break like before.
06:52
Spike Spiegel
I think amoveo doesn't need any more marketing than simple screencast / blogpost showing how to get good yield ( better than anything on DeFi )
06:52
Eric Arsenault
Yeah really
06:53
I agree, money will follow (as long as it is true!)
06:56
Spike Spiegel
people are simple:
1. show that you can earn more
2. deliver proof of concept ( it may be slight subsidy )
3. Get liquidity, remove subsidy
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09:52
Zack
I found a fix for how we didn't recover correctly after losing some blocks. it isn't a hard or soft update. you can update when you are ready.
I am doing final testing now to make sure this fix doesn't break anything else.
09:54
the problem was that the api for downloading headers, we were sending out the longest chain of headers we knew about. I updated it so now we send the longest chain of headers that includes the highest block that we know about.
09:54
and I have a test to confirm that once the headers have synced, then the nodes are able to pull the blocks as well.
09:57
ok, I pushed the fix. so you can sync when you are ready.
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16:02
A K
Great effort, however this made me rofl: "As you can see, the whole process is quite intuitive and simple, so there’s nothing stopping you from raising the funds"
16:03
OTOH, no programming in chalang required, maybe that's why you called it simple )
18:38
Spike Spiegel
"We tried to do too much. Prediction markets are a generalized form of betting, derivatives, insurance, and more. Focused versions of any of these verticals may be better for users than the generalized form."
18:38
We didn’t offer a good onboarding experience. Crypto as a user base is still early, and we didn’t make it easy enough for users without crypto or a wallet to get started.
18:38
We weren’t decentralized or regulated. Some users want a fully decentralized, unstoppable product and others want a regulated product. It’s hard to offer something in between that people find valuable.
))
18:53
1. Focusing on one key feature ( not generalised platform )
2. Tracking onboarding and improving it
3. Marketing decentralisation and being unstoppable and not regulations
23:31
sanket
The amoveo forum is really good idea.
23:39
Srle
I am more and more convinced that this is just another shit coin. I regret the time and money spent on mining this crap. Instead of doing something to boost the coins price, Zack is just writing crap here on the channel
23:41
SSDD
@Srle1 Rome wasn't built in a day 👀
23:42
Srle
But shitcoin is
23:46
SSDD
@Srle1 so... according to your thought, any coin that failed to skyrocket 10,000x in price within (let's just say a year) is a shitcoin?
23:50
Srle
It didnt even come close to ath
23:50
And project is dead
00:37
Seems similar to Zack research on cost for honest oracles
00:37
Underpaying vs overpaying for security
00:38
"Economic guarantees are expensive. This sort of oracle should be called relatively infrequently; ideal use cases are for disputes and settlements, such as closing a disputed state channel that references external data."
00:47
Zack
Looks like they are going with the same 3.2 security model as Augur and Bitcoin Hivemind.
And they are only just rediscovering things that Paul Sztorc had written about around 5 years ago. let me find the page of his notes that describes the same thing as their presentation.
00:49
Mr Flintstone
they cite amoveo :)
00:54
I think their token buyback is counter-productive.
It decreases the total number of coins available.
They need (# votecoins) * (value of a votecoin) > (value of money at stake in the markets)
Doing a votecoin buyback doesn't necessarily improve on this inequality.
Where do they even get money for a buyback anyway?
00:54
> The funds needed to conduct these buybacks are raised by collecting fees F from contracts using the system.
00:57
Bitcoin Hivemind, Augur, and this protocol proposed by UMA are all 3.2 level secure protocols that have votecoins.
These kinds of oracles are very expensive in comparison to Amoveo.
They need the value of their votecoins to stay above the value of all the bets they are securing.
Keeping the value of votecoins high means they need high fees.
Which means Amoveo can undercut them, offering even better security, at a fraction of the cost.
01:05
Spike Spiegel
Don't answer here, but on Twitter.
01:06
Otherwise you are talking to people that got enlightenment already and they need no more :)
01:07
Instinct
👍 amoveo needs more recognition
01:09
Zack
you guys can review my thoughts before I publish them more publicly.
You are like my inner circle of trusted advisors.
01:09
Spike Spiegel
1. Communication thoughts via images / short powerpoint / pdf presentations seems more effective on twitter vs wall of text
01:10
2. They asked honestly for the feedback - the point isn't to bash competition but to allow people to draw conclusions on their own
01:11
3. It's hard to reference a "paper / whitepaper" that doesn't exist in form of pdf file ( hard to cite collection of blogposts )
01:11
A K
What stops Augur and UMA from implementing Amoveo approach? Impossibility to fork ETH over an oracle dispute?
01:12
Cos if they can and will listen to Zack, Amoveo is doomed
01:13
Zack
our consensus mechanism is mixed up with the oracle mechanism in a way that you can't build on ethereum from the contracts alone.
01:13
Spike Spiegel
One can emulate such design using vote-token / burns
01:14
A K
Vote token fork seems possible yep
01:15
Spike Spiegel
Or try. The general rule is that Ethereum is significantly better than bitcoin for smart contracts, but to get people to switch one has to be like 10x improvement on ETH which is impossible currently
01:16
Credit cards > cash ( for convenience )
You cannot offer just slight improvement over credit cards because switching costs are massive
01:16
Zack
if you use vote coins, then it is going to be 3.2, you will need to pay them enough in fees to bribe them not to attack, it will be expensive
01:17
Spike Spiegel
Saying expensive / not expensive doesn't mean anything without quantifying it - it's meaningless
01:17
Zack
the difference in cost between votecoins 3.2 and amoveo style oracles 2.2, it is a big difference.
Imagine if every time you bet $1 in Amoveo, if you had to lock up $2.
That is would be comparable cost difference.
01:18
Spike Spiegel
MakerCDP requires locking 150% and on average people are locking even 400%
01:18
And they are happy with it and not switching en masse to less expensive DeFi projects
01:20
Also MakerCDP system doesn't require you to find a counterparty
01:21
And finding person willing to trade and posting and looking for offers - it all cost real money and opportunity cost
01:23
A K
+++ that's why centralised exchanges still beat DEXes
01:24
Spike Spiegel
Make derivatives on VEO cheaper than on other places, including cost to learn how it works + cost to find counter-party. This will bring tracktion / product market fit
01:25
While technically cost of locking veo may be low the other "social cost" is large enough that inefficient solutions are de-facto cheaper
05:50
the binary it compiles to is about 15% longer than the forth version.
05:51
I think it is going to be a lot easier to update and maintain this new version.
06:26
sanket
This sounds like a plan
07:44
The Ancients
lol zack talking about alot of ppl will lose money is this a joke xD
07:44
Chainlink went from 40 cents to $3.00
Veo has went from $1,000 to $70 dollars with like $100 volumes.
07:44
u couldn't even get out of veo if u tried xD
13:37
Toby Ganger
Zack doesn’t seem to get that crypto is about code AND community. They must be developed hand in hand. He thinks the first will create the second.
13:38
In fact, he’s been actually anti community creation.
13:54
Sy
This is getting a bit annoying...why are you guys still here then?
13:58
Toby Ganger
Trying to pound some sense into Zack perhaps? I couldn’t sell 1/10th of my VEO right now if I wanted to
14:09
Sylvinho Blanco
Sold half at the bottom. This coin is finally a soft scam. One developer which control all. Some people (the community) asked some things but there is zero consideration.
14:11
Will probably sold the second half at the (current) bottom.
14:14
That was a small bag but with this volume, i control the price for a week.
14:16
There is at least one bug each month.
14:16
Toby Ganger
I’m not going to sell at a massive loss…and there isn’t even buy demand to buy up 1/10th of my VEO…so I’ll just write it off as a loss and hope for a miracle
14:19
Sylvinho Blanco
No miracle possible excepts a good & polish web article.
14:20
Toby Ganger
that won’t change anything
14:21
the
amoveo.io website looks good and steven does great newsletters
14:21
there’s just like 5 people in the community
14:22
Sylvinho Blanco
I remember when "pick a crypto" made an article, there was an effect
14:24
The volume is so low that if 20 or 30 buyers comes, this shit will go *3 *4.
14:25
Toby Ganger
so i’d be almost back to break even
14:26
it’s pretty foolish to sell any alts in this environment though…altcoin capitulation stages
14:26
it’s almost a guarantee to get burned
14:35
it’s also silly to call it a scam when Zack hasn’t sold any of his coins…and he’s incentivized to have the price higher to make his coins more valuable
14:35
I think Zack can be stubborn and dense but he’s definitely not a scammer
14:35
and he’s a brilliant developer…both in vision and in practice…
14:40
i should also add that Sy has made great contributions as well
14:42
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
Yes i think like Zack
every single day Zack wakes up and builds an idea without getting a single dollar from no one but the blockchain itself...
and people still complains they did not get rich without doing anything
14:43
Toby Ganger
Except you’re not getting what I’m saying. This isn’t about money. It’s about users. Community. A network only has value to anyone if enough people are using it. So code in itself is useless without a community around it.
14:43
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
humans are parasites
14:45
use the tools he builds and stop complaining people, you are infront of a genius and expect a monkey with a microphone
14:46
Toby Ganger
Alright I can’t take you seriously when you don’t address the actual argument being made
14:46
you want him also to entertain you
14:47
what i am not addressing
14:47
Toby Ganger
To entertain me? ok kiddo
14:47
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
kiddo? 😂
14:48
i am not the kid in the corner complaining here
14:48
Toby Ganger
I’ve made the argument countless times that part of development of a network is code and part is community. They both need each other and operate in a feedback loop.
14:49
So the building of a network based technology must also work to develop the network or the “building” is an exercise in futility
14:50
And it wouldn’t be a problem if he was passive about the community growth...but he’s been openly hostile to all efforts to grow it because he doesn’t want “the wrong type of investors” to quote him
14:50
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
yes, so while he builds the tech he address every doubt people drop here AND on top of that you want him to make your coffee
14:51
Toby Ganger
You’re going to keep making irrelevant non sequitors I see. Have fun with that.
14:51
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
grow up kiddo
14:51
Toby Ganger
“Don’t be openly hostile to efforts to build the community” = “make me coffee”
14:53
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
"sir, i haBe a new marketing proposal for you
pleaze pm me"
what serious effort has he stopped
14:54
Toby Ganger
several…I’ve been around in this community for over a year…and in Crypto for 8 years…
14:54
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
8 years crypto
14:54
Toby Ganger
Zack has openly stated on several occasions that he didn’t want to anything that might attract buyers because it would be the wrong kind of attention before finding our “market fit”
14:55
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
so what? what has he stopped?
14:56
Toby Ganger
perhaps if you read what I complained about you would get it…I will repost it
“I’ve made the argument countless times that part of development of a network is code and part is community. They both need each other and operate in a feedback loop.
So the building of a network based technology must also work to develop the network or the “building” is an exercise in futility”
14:56
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
yes read you already
14:57
say what needs to be done but actually doing nothing
14:57
Toby Ganger
I did everything I could to help build community in Bitcoin back in the day…I even made a Bitcoin song that is the most widely listened to original Bitcoin song ever made..but in this community Zack has shot down multiple offers from people trying to help..and his stated intent was to keep people away
14:59
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
this 20min you could have drafted a proposal to increase engagement and Zack himself would have helped you to put it on the blockchain
but instead you copy pasted 4 messages
15:00
ok yes that is why you want a monkey with a microphone, a bitcoin song helped btc price
