Amoveo ♥🧿
Previous messages
Next messages
13 July 2019
b
15:00
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
good morning Toby
TG
15:00
Toby Ganger
I have seen about 10 separate proposals to Zack all rejected by Zack with the stated purpose of keeping people away
b
Z
15:01
Zack
I recently lost 11 Veo because they got trapped in a channel. Now I am doing an update to prevent this kind of mistake from happening to anyone again.
I am telling people to not use p2p derivatives for a few more days, because it will be better once I get this update through. We will want some tester then rather than now.
Someday it will be easy to participate in amoveo contracts without risk of accidentally deleting funds. At that point I will feel more comfortable encouraging widespread use of amoveo.
I am telling people to not use p2p derivatives for a few more days, because it will be better once I get this update through. We will want some tester then rather than now.
Someday it will be easy to participate in amoveo contracts without risk of accidentally deleting funds. At that point I will feel more comfortable encouraging widespread use of amoveo.
TG
Z
15:06
Zack
It's not that I expect good tech to magically attract a community.
Rather, I expect that bad tech that loses funds will make any community we build disappear very quickly.
We need a useable product, or any users we gather will get bored and move on.
Rather, I expect that bad tech that loses funds will make any community we build disappear very quickly.
We need a useable product, or any users we gather will get bored and move on.
TG
15:06
Toby Ganger
Zack will always get my respect for his vision and ability to code….and I will always disagree with him about what entails development of a network…this is a grown up disagreement…and I have not disrespected him once…nor have I sold anything….so stop the white knighting…and personal insults and disagree and move on
b
15:09
you listen to your own bitcoin song Toby
Z
15:09
Zack
I like how Toby and pedro have passion for Amoveo.
But I wish someone would comment on the lisp version of market smart contracts, instead of arguing.
But I wish someone would comment on the lisp version of market smart contracts, instead of arguing.
TG
b
15:09
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
cry baby
TG
15:10
Toby Ganger
In reply to this message
I comment on the new tech developments by buying more VEO which I did 2 days ago
Z
15:10
Zack
This is a place to discuss amoveo, not point out each other's flaws.
b
15:10
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
sorry Zach wont point out more Tobys flaws
15:13
sorry Toby
15:13
no need to discuss we are on the same boat
TG
15:13
Toby Ganger
gotta love the internet
b
15:14
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
different opinions on how to move nothing more
Z
15:23
Zack
A1 has supported us for months. I haven't heard any complaints during this time. So it seems to me that a1 is a very good exchange.
15:23
Deleted Account
I made a request withdraw from this site. The status show executed. But nothing done.
Z
15:24
Zack
A1 has a channel on the amoveo discord where you can talk to admins about this
15:24
Deleted Account
Ok, thank Zack
Z
b
MCL invited MCL
16:47
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
you use emacs for coding? isn't that a bit difficult?
Z
16:49
Zack
emacs is great. I don't have to touch the mouse.
Z
16:50
Zack
and it is fairly easy to program.
So I can add any behavior that I could possibly want.
So I can add any behavior that I could possibly want.
16:50
emacs is for editing text.
16:52
I used emacs when I was doing my taxes. I have used it to write a resume, I have used it to type up homework assignments in college. It is a great text editor.
16:52
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
why do you prefer it to other editors that uses the mouse like notepad++ or sublime?
Z
16:54
Zack
in emacs I can run the program from inside of emacs, so I can copy paste from the output of the program, without ever switching windows or touching my mouse.
It leads to a very fast development cycle.
It leads to a very fast development cycle.
16:55
if you have to reach for your mouse as a part of your development cycle, it makes things a lot slower.
16:57
I can run a live erlang shell inside of emacs. So I can write messages and poke around in amoveo from inside of emacs. And if any messages do something useful, I can immediately copy/paste that message into the code base as a new api command or a function or whatever.
Without ever switching windows or touching my mouse.
emacs runs well over SSH too, so I can be doing this all remotely.
Without ever switching windows or touching my mouse.
emacs runs well over SSH too, so I can be doing this all remotely.
16:57
Emacs and Erlang have been used together for decades. The users have optimized both to work together very effectively.
17:01
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
I havent tried emacs because when I coded before we only used sublime or an IDE
Z
17:01
Zack
effective programming means doing development cycles as quickly as possible.
What that looks like, is you build a test, and then you do:
1) look at how the test is crashing, and modify the code
2) if it still crashes, go back to (1).
ideally I can do this cycle in less than 10 seconds, that way I can use just my very short term memory while programming. I don't have to depend on myself remembering anything for more than 10 seconds.
What that looks like, is you build a test, and then you do:
1) look at how the test is crashing, and modify the code
2) if it still crashes, go back to (1).
ideally I can do this cycle in less than 10 seconds, that way I can use just my very short term memory while programming. I don't have to depend on myself remembering anything for more than 10 seconds.
17:04
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
yes thats how I learned to do it, and yep it takes a lot of time, mainly from running the test. I thought thats how everybody does it... I guess there are better ways.
Z
17:07
Zack
I think you can injure yourself from moving your hand back and forth to the keyboard and mouse all day.
Trying to do those precise movements so quickly and repeatedly isn't healthy.
If you are doing 3 cycles per minute for 8 hours, that means you are moving your hand back and forth like that 1440 times in one day.
Which means out of the 8 hours, something like 1.5 hours was wasted just grabbing your mouse, or finding the home-row of your keyboard.
Trying to do those precise movements so quickly and repeatedly isn't healthy.
If you are doing 3 cycles per minute for 8 hours, that means you are moving your hand back and forth like that 1440 times in one day.
Which means out of the 8 hours, something like 1.5 hours was wasted just grabbing your mouse, or finding the home-row of your keyboard.
17:07
moving your eyes away from the screen to look at your hand moving to your keyboard, that puts unnecessary stress on your eyes.
And then you have to search the screen for the spot you were working on.
And then you have to search the screen for the spot you were working on.
17:07
Doing that an extra 1440 times per day wastes so much unnecessary effort.
17:18
Spending 1.5 hours a day grabbing your mouse is also very boring. After a month like that, the boredom of those empty moments really gets to you.
imagine if you had to sit in a chair, moving your hand back and forth to the keyboard and mouse for 90 minutes straight every day.
That is an obviously pointless ritual.
imagine if you had to sit in a chair, moving your hand back and forth to the keyboard and mouse for 90 minutes straight every day.
That is an obviously pointless ritual.
17:19
I guess if you get paid by the hour, you might prefer using a mouse. because that 1.5 hours is like a break that you get paid for.
But you guys don't care how many hours I am sitting at my desk. I would rather spend that extra time doing something else.
But you guys don't care how many hours I am sitting at my desk. I would rather spend that extra time doing something else.
17:28
I think I put a lot more strain on my wrist when I am using a mouse. Because you need precise control to achieve the right X-Y coordinates where you want to click.
When you are typing, you can relax your eyes, and focus on your ideas. A mental model can keep track of where you are in the document even if you aren't looking.
but if you are clicking, you always need to be visually focused on the location of your cursor.
When you are typing, you can relax your eyes, and focus on your ideas. A mental model can keep track of where you are in the document even if you aren't looking.
but if you are clicking, you always need to be visually focused on the location of your cursor.
17:30
In many cases, after seeing the result of a error, I would be able to update the code, and run the next test, all without opening my eyes.
It is like how a skilled chef can look up while cutting vegetables, and they have no fear that they will accidentally cut their hand.
They use correct technique so that a mental model is sufficient.
It is like how a skilled chef can look up while cutting vegetables, and they have no fear that they will accidentally cut their hand.
They use correct technique so that a mental model is sufficient.
17:38
I find that if I can get 10% more done in a day, it increases by output by like 20%
Because if I am getting more done, I will see more connections between the different things I pay attention to in a day. It gives me a better perspective, so I can make more effective decisions about how I spend my time.
So all the little things that I can do to give myself a little more time per day, it compounds on itself making me exponentially more productive.
Because if I am getting more done, I will see more connections between the different things I pay attention to in a day. It gives me a better perspective, so I can make more effective decisions about how I spend my time.
So all the little things that I can do to give myself a little more time per day, it compounds on itself making me exponentially more productive.
Leonhard B invited Leonhard B
LB
Z
19:09
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/experimental/apps/amoveo_core/priv/market.scm
I added comments, changed variables names, and simplified the new lisp smart contract for markets.
Now it compiles even shorter than the forth version.
I added comments, changed variables names, and simplified the new lisp smart contract for markets.
Now it compiles even shorter than the forth version.
LB
Z
19:18
I am in the process of updating this system, it is recommended not to use it for the next few days
19:19
it is easier for me to see the patterns and make the code shorter now that it is in lisp syntax.
LB
19:24
Leonhard B
Nice, looking forward to that!
D
19:32
What exchange is this bot built on?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
23:23
Zack
there are 256 possible bytes we can use as opcodes in chalang. currently we only use about 100 of them.
loading the integer 0 into chalang currently takes 5 bytes. All integers are encoded as 4 bytes, and we have a 1 byte signal to indicate that the next 4 bytes encode an integer.
I am thinking of defining around 100 more opcodes, each one is just to load an integer between 0 and 99.
the market smart contract loads about 210 integers, using 1050 opcodes.
The entire contract is only 1630 opcodes, so over 2/3rds are being used just to load integers, and almost all the integers being loaded are less than 50.
With this upgrade, the market smart contract should be able to be shortened to less than 800 opcodes.
loading the integer 0 into chalang currently takes 5 bytes. All integers are encoded as 4 bytes, and we have a 1 byte signal to indicate that the next 4 bytes encode an integer.
I am thinking of defining around 100 more opcodes, each one is just to load an integer between 0 and 99.
the market smart contract loads about 210 integers, using 1050 opcodes.
The entire contract is only 1630 opcodes, so over 2/3rds are being used just to load integers, and almost all the integers being loaded are less than 50.
With this upgrade, the market smart contract should be able to be shortened to less than 800 opcodes.
14 July 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Jed invited Jed
06:48
Deleted Account
Hi
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
08:18
Zack
In reply to this message
Chalang is the VM for Amoveo smart contracts.
We have a couple compilers that target chalang byte code. A lisp compiler, and a forth compiler
We have a couple compilers that target chalang byte code. A lisp compiler, and a forth compiler
Z
11:12
Zack
I figured out how to add closures to the macro system. So now you can make macros that generate macros and it keeps track of the context lexically.
11:13
since you can't define new functions at runtime, languages that compile to the chalang VM will never have closures at runtime.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
21:38
Zack
I am thinking of making a repl for chalang.
That way I can test out making changes to a function without having to recompile the entire program.
That way I can test out making changes to a function without having to recompile the entire program.
SS
22:48
Spike Spiegel
Meanwhile price for CDP increased to 20.5%
22:48
There is about $90M worth of contracts willing to migrate to something better and cheaper
Z
23:24
Zack
it looks like the bug that has money stuck in channels, it only happens to the person who proposed the channel. not the person who accepts it.
AK
23:40
A K
In reply to this message
Impossible to migrate even $1M I'm afraid. Consider ETH doubles and there will be a PL of $1M settled in VEO. Then one will need to convert VEO to USD or ETH, depending on the trade. Good luck with selling $1M worth of VEO...
Z
23:41
Zack
if demand was that high, we could raise the block reward to grow the supply faster
AK
23:42
A K
Block supply solves buy side liquidity exactly how ?
23:42
Chicken and egg, sort of.
Z
23:43
Zack
maybe I misunderstood what you are saying
AK
23:43
A K
Use case Spike is speaking about: taking a levered long on ETH
23:43
E.g. 2x
23:44
Initial state : trader has ETH or USD
23:45
Desired state: have twice as much exposure to ETH at rates way below current Maker, e.g. 10% would do
23:46
That should be a net rate, after all commissions and slippages due to liquidity etc, also after costs of hedging VEO margin held in a state channel (remember , trader wants 0 veo risk, only cares about ETH/USD)
23:49
How do we get VEO to be able to facilitate above trade for at least $1M notional?
23:56
(Obv can be AAPL instead of ETH, but for AAPL current financing is not 20% but rather 2% - much harder to compete against)
15 July 2019
K
00:13
Is it possible to raise funds on futachy for exchange listings?
MF
00:19
Mr Flintstone
you might be able to get paid to long eth on amoveo
00:19
Instead of the other way around
Deleted invited Deleted Account
SS
00:23
Spike Spiegel
How long ETH on Amoveo would work?
AK
00:25
A K
In reply to this message
Not if one factors liquidity (slippage) and margin hedging costs (I don't want to take any veo risk, remember - so need to hedge what's locked in the channel)
MF
00:25
Mr Flintstone
yes, that is what I am saying
00:25
you get paid to short veo
00:25
more than you pay to long eth
AK
00:25
A K
ah I see - yep, technically possible
MF
00:25
Mr Flintstone
so you are a net receiver of interest
SS
00:26
Spike Spiegel
Huh, seems like the important derivative should be short veo
AK
00:26
A K
How do we get veo longers to appear though )
MF
00:26
Mr Flintstone
there is already 70k long veo out there
SS
00:26
Spike Spiegel
As if you buy short veo + something else you can get rid of the veo exposure ( desired state for people from other blockchains _
MF
00:26
Mr Flintstone
you can sell veo derivatives, then sell your spot veo to free up capital yet keep the same exposure to veo
AK
MF
00:27
Mr Flintstone
yeah, right now certainly
00:27
but nobody is gonna put lots of money in until it’s tested anyways with small amounts
SS
00:27
Spike Spiegel
I want to go long ETH as an experiment to document it and create a blogpost
AK
00:28
A K
I want to go short BSV
00:28
Right now borrow is 5-10% for BSV
MF
00:28
Mr Flintstone
I’d probably be willing to take those trades on weeklies
AK
00:28
A K
If VEO can pay me, I'm all in
MF
00:29
Mr Flintstone
one concern is that the scalar oracles would eat up my expected value, unless we were doing big trades
AK
00:33
A K
10x fees?
K
00:38
There is no security disadvantage to having a PoS/PoW hybrid, only advantages
AK
K
SS
00:45
Spike Spiegel
btw, DAC idea = take Veil interface and use it for Amoveo
00:45
It's open sourced now AFAIK
00:52
People are moving from CDP into Compound because liquidation ratio and high fees
Z
00:55
Zack
In reply to this message
I agree that it could make sense to use pos for security, and pow for distributing tokens.
00:56
In reply to this message
We should look into this more before dac. An assessment of whether it makes sense and how difficult it would be.
SS
00:57
Spike Spiegel
Imagine that somebody from VEO community would operate stuff like InstaDapp or Loanscan and then use it to advertise better products on veo
K
01:00
You can give like half of the reward from transaction fees to stakers and that should be alright
Z
01:02
Zack
at the current time, it seems like pow is already giving us sufficient security for free. adding a pos system would take a lot of time, and it would add a lot of complexity. This is an area of active research. it would be bad for us to get attached to an early version, and then someone will build a better version later.
I think the best choice for now is to wait and see.
Of course, futarchy will make the final decision for something so controversial like this.
I think the best choice for now is to wait and see.
Of course, futarchy will make the final decision for something so controversial like this.
K
K
02:28
I don't think the community column is correct.
Z
02:28
Zack
they copy pasted that from a document I wrote like 8 months ago
EA
02:43
They have a bunch of wrong information, and they are top ranked in google search
02:43
this is why we need a community site for Amoveo
02:43
people have lost money because of this
K
02:44
K
I feel like a lot of what is written is also quite biased. Would look more professional if it was written in a different way
EA
02:45
Eric Arsenault
exactly
02:45
very biased
02:45
most people getting exposed to Amoveo think this is the official site
Z
02:45
Zack
I think they are all Russian first language, but their motivations are good. If you send suggestions to rewrite things, they will probably accept it
02:46
@denis_voskvitsov is involved I think
G
03:02
Gonzalo
In reply to this message
Yes please send them any suggestion to improve the site. Anyway I own the domain, and will point it to another site if this one gets too biased. I want amoveo.io to be a real community site
DV
03:21
Denis Voskvitsov
no problem, we're ready to discuss and change info that can be wrong
EA
03:23
Eric Arsenault
This is good to know, thanks guys
03:24
Maybe we can get some thoughts from the community on how to improve it (I’ll put some thoughts together too)
G
03:25
Gonzalo
Great! 👍
EA
03:26
Eric Arsenault
is there any way it can be open sourced so people can contribute openly?
DV
03:45
Denis Voskvitsov
I guess it would be complex to make it editable by anyone right now. anyway I'll check if there are ways to add suggestions feature.
also, you can describe proposed changes via forum.amoveo.io, so they won't be lost in the chat
also, you can describe proposed changes via forum.amoveo.io, so they won't be lost in the chat
EA
04:04
Eric Arsenault
👌
SB
06:20
Sylvinho Blanco
Dump this coin my friends
06:21
Can we go to the zero ?
06:21
Probably on the next bug.
Steven 🇺🇸 invited Steven 🇺🇸
S
06:37
Steven 🇺🇸
Agreed, get out while we still can
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Ed Sonic invited Deleted Account
Z
11:06
Zack
I updated the light node so now both participants keep a copy of the bytecode of the contract.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
AK
15:31
A K
Funny thing is, ppl in AE groups complain a lot more about price right now
ŽM
19:13
Živojin Mirić
We need to vote on amoveo if veo should go forward as pump shitcoin or as world changing religious experience as Zack imagined
19:13
Futarchy should decide!
19:14
Thx bro
Z
20:14
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/blob/functions/src/lisp/lisp.scm
I wrote lisp inside lisp.
both are at compile-time.
our macro system was so powerful that you could create any syntax for writing contracts.
But now it is so powerful that you could create any syntax for writing macros.
This is useful for smart contract systems, because we want to keep as much computation at compile time as possible, so that the resulting contract is short.
I wrote lisp inside lisp.
both are at compile-time.
our macro system was so powerful that you could create any syntax for writing contracts.
But now it is so powerful that you could create any syntax for writing macros.
This is useful for smart contract systems, because we want to keep as much computation at compile time as possible, so that the resulting contract is short.
20:17
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/blob/functions/src/lisp/lisp.scm#L92 you can see the passing tests showing available behavior at the bottom.
ŽM
20:20
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
I have full rights to make the futarchy question so Zack doesn't have to approve anythibg
ŽM
21:11
Živojin Mirić
But I am worried about the futarchy power of big veo holders such as Zack
I
Deleted invited Deleted Account
16 July 2019
SB
MF
01:19
Mr Flintstone
trying to manipulate futarchy markets is the same thing as betting a coin will be heads 55% of the time
SB
Z
03:49
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/blob/functions/src/lisp/compiler.scm
previously I had been trying to use the same interface to program lisp at run-time and compile time. This lead to conflicts, because certain words would have to either be interpreted as their run-time version, or the compile-time version, and it was impossible to do everything I had wanted.
Now we have this macro that acts like a compiler. You can feed it lisp code, and it compiles it into a chalang program.
So we can do all our macro stuff first, build up exactly the code we want, and then pass it to this compiler to transform it into chalang bytecode.
previously I had been trying to use the same interface to program lisp at run-time and compile time. This lead to conflicts, because certain words would have to either be interpreted as their run-time version, or the compile-time version, and it was impossible to do everything I had wanted.
Now we have this macro that acts like a compiler. You can feed it lisp code, and it compiles it into a chalang program.
So we can do all our macro stuff first, build up exactly the code we want, and then pass it to this compiler to transform it into chalang bytecode.
S
05:20
Sy
Is anyone else getting alot of cloudflare pages lately when checking http://explorer.veopool.pw/ ?
I am wondering if its just me...the server is up and running all day long
I am wondering if its just me...the server is up and running all day long
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
07:40
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
That's really true and really not good for the wrists. I think one might develop carpal tunnel from doing that.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
14:16
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
You could lose something important if you invested with rubbish coins/tokens.
Iga Biva invited Iga Biva
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
22:56
SSDD
A little summary of what happened last week, guys
S
22:56
SSDD
A
Amoveo News 16.07.2019 22:38:47
This week's newsletter covers the launch of Amoveo-dedicated forum, first public DAC and much more. Read more about it here:
https://amoveo.substack.com/p/18-amoveo-community-forum-and-guide
https://amoveo.substack.com/p/18-amoveo-community-forum-and-guide
Z
23:31
Zack
the lisp version is more than 5% shorter now. I kept finding ways to simplify it.
17 July 2019
S
00:19
Sy
dont over simply it so it becomes more complicated to understand...
00:19
keep it clear, clean and simpel / readable
Z
00:20
Zack
i simplified it to make it easier to understand
S
00:20
Sy
👍
00:20
just making sure you dont end up like perl 😅
Z
00:32
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8090/main.html there is a futarchy market to increase the block reward. If no one accepts these bets in the next 2 days, then the block reward will be increased
S
01:56
Sy
If someone starts the gov oracle aswell...
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
06:11
SSDD
btw, guys from Exantech want to add some interesting features in their myveowallet 👀
S
06:11
SSDD
A
Amoveo News 17.07.2019 02:16:57
Be a real part of the fast-growing Amoveo community 🚀
Guys from Exantech, the team that created MyVeoWallet, a web & desktop wallet for Amoveo with upcoming Ledger wallet support and the Amoveo Telegram ExchangeBot, need your help more than ever before.
They are about to roll out a new set of MyVeoWallet features for working with Amoveo oracles.
More info here: https://forum.amoveo.io/t/dac-myveowallet-brand-new-features/27
Guys from Exantech, the team that created MyVeoWallet, a web & desktop wallet for Amoveo with upcoming Ledger wallet support and the Amoveo Telegram ExchangeBot, need your help more than ever before.
They are about to roll out a new set of MyVeoWallet features for working with Amoveo oracles.
More info here: https://forum.amoveo.io/t/dac-myveowallet-brand-new-features/27
Z
Deleted invited Deleted Account
18 July 2019
Z
00:05
Zack
I updated the light node to use the new version of the binary market smart contract, which was written in lisp.
loading the new version in js:
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/blob/master/src/js/market.js#L100
compared to how messy loading the old version was:
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/blob/master/src/js/market.js#L52
loading the new version in js:
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/blob/master/src/js/market.js#L100
compared to how messy loading the old version was:
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/blob/master/src/js/market.js#L52
DV
00:10
Denis Voskvitsov
great! is it the contract code itself? https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/blob/master/src/lisp/market.scm
Z
00:12
Zack
No
00:13
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/experimental/apps/amoveo_core/src/channels/lisp_market.erl and here is tests, and a tool for compiling it for javascript
00:15
I am building a better compiler, so I will be able to write an even prettier version of this soon. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/blob/master/src/lisp/compiler.scm
it will improve the local variable system so that we wont have to use so many global variables.
it will improve the local variable system so that we wont have to use so many global variables.
00:21
we went from forth style to imparitive style. next we will bring it to a functional/immutable style, which is not only easier to read, it should compile to even shorter code.
00:32
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/archive/76002c88a96f5bdfe2a86e26f512d91e69e0441d.zip
Here is the old version of the light node you will need to use if you want to participate in the futarchy market that is currently live http://139.59.144.76:8090/main.html
Here is the old version of the light node you will need to use if you want to participate in the futarchy market that is currently live http://139.59.144.76:8090/main.html
00:33
oh, the futarchy market is with scalar bets, and I haven't update the scalar contract yet. So actually, the new version should work too.
00:33
if it doesn't work, it will give you error messages and be obvious, so don't be afraid to try.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
05:07
Mr Flintstone
idk what that link was but I deleted it
S
Z
12:11
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/blob/master/src/lisp/compiler.scm#L224
Now we can efficiently bind local variables to the output of functions that leave more than one thing behind on the stack.
Now we can efficiently bind local variables to the output of functions that leave more than one thing behind on the stack.
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Deleted joined group by link from Group
SS
V K invited Ruslan
S
22:17
SSDD
👀
S
22:17
SSDD
A
Amoveo News 18.07.2019 20:52:08
Exantech CEO @denis_voskvitsov shared at the Barcelona Trading Conference his vision of how blockchain-based prediction markets may impact our future and how this technology is changing the modern world today.
Read about it here: https://medium.com/amoveo/exantech-ceo-on-prediction-markets-at-barcelona-trading-conference-2019-9957db1bcc3c?source=friends_link&sk=d457c6c65cab64d7e833087e3d084c8d
Read about it here: https://medium.com/amoveo/exantech-ceo-on-prediction-markets-at-barcelona-trading-conference-2019-9957db1bcc3c?source=friends_link&sk=d457c6c65cab64d7e833087e3d084c8d
SS
22:22
Spike Spiegel
I think we can play long game with Amoveo
19 July 2019
Z
10:47
Zack
the compiler is building nice code now, but it has become very slow.
Most of the compiler is in lisp. I think I could make it shorter if I just wrote it in scheme.
and since scheme can compile to javascript and C, Which means we could compile the compiler to C and javascript.
So we could compile chalang lisp in the browser, and using very fast C code.
Most of the compiler is in lisp. I think I could make it shorter if I just wrote it in scheme.
and since scheme can compile to javascript and C, Which means we could compile the compiler to C and javascript.
So we could compile chalang lisp in the browser, and using very fast C code.
10:49
wouldn't it be cool if we could build a new contract together in the browser.
Caballero sin caballo invited Caballero sin caballo
Z
17:50
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/blob/master/src/compiler_lisp2.erl
I rewrote the lisp compiler.
It is like 6x shorter now, and excessively faster. I removed a lot of features that didn't seem directly useful to building our smart contracts.
I rewrote the lisp compiler.
It is like 6x shorter now, and excessively faster. I removed a lot of features that didn't seem directly useful to building our smart contracts.
17:51
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/blob/master/src/lisp2/first.scm#L19
and here is some sample code that it can correctly compile.
and here is some sample code that it can correctly compile.
SS
19:21
Spike Spiegel
tbh saying stuff about compiler rewrite where there are no users may be perceived as offending
Z
19:30
Zack
It makes it easier to write and maintain smart contracts if we have good tools
19:31
I write tools because I need them, not to impress anyone.
SS
19:32
Spike Spiegel
In expecting a return on investment even in the absence of legal or market mechanisms to secure such return, shareholders are not irrational. Instead, investors rely on cultural understandings of appropriate reciprocity. Marcel Mauss’ path-breaking essay, The Gift, helps to explain the equity culture in which shareholders invest in Snap and other high-technology firms, and in which such firms operate.
19:33
"The shareholders are committed, and in some moral sense owed good faith management, and so it may yet be rational, morally if not legally, for the shareholders to expect something in return for their investment. "
19:35
Should Amoveo holders be expecting others to work to increase VEO price?
ŽM
19:35
Živojin Mirić
I AM INVESTOR
SS
19:35
Spike Spiegel
Are you entitled to anything?
ŽM
19:35
Živojin Mirić
I do not know, let's ask futarchy
19:37
VEO == TOP20 by end of 2020. Lambo Boiz reporting in
Z
19:39
Zack
What do we deserve? morally, legally, in a sense of justice, I have no idea.
I just want to make a good product.
I just want to make a good product.
ŽM
19:39
not everyone is for inventing a combustion engine
SS
19:40
Spike Spiegel
morally
19:40
Legally Zack can sell everything now or focus on irrelevant tasks
19:40
But is this moral?
ŽM
19:41
Živojin Mirić
great idea and very doable
19:41
marketing genius
19:41
maybe create marketing team
19:41
since it's open project
19:41
I can be a member too
Z
19:43
Zack
In reply to this message
From my perspective, making a better smart contract compiler is an important goal right now.
Yesterday Sy and I solved a major bug, and now the nodes are far more stable. I can use the RAM version of the merkel tree, and it doesn't crash, which means it can sync a lot faster.
Yesterday Sy and I solved a major bug, and now the nodes are far more stable. I can use the RAM version of the merkel tree, and it doesn't crash, which means it can sync a lot faster.
MF
21:24
Mr Flintstone
i bet if the price were higher people wouldn’t complain about everything zack does
M invited M
M
22:56
M
hello admin, can you please explain how amoveo differs from chinlink? why is it better sir?
22:56
thank you
Z
M
23:00
M
In reply to this message
i dont understand this technical mumbojumbo sir can you give me a quick rundown please sorry
23:00
chinlink is partnered with swift im hearing, what partnerships do you have admin?
23:00
swift is pretty big i think
Z
23:00
Zack
If you ask more specific questions
M
23:01
M
what
B
23:06
Beer
scroll down to the end of the page under Conclusions Sir. I hope you can comprehend those two sentences
M
23:07
wen automoveo coin moon dear admin
23:07
i have many children to feed dear sir
23:08
they say chinlink 1000$ end of the year sirs i need to know if automoveo can reach more thank you
23:08
sorry for bothering please
SS
23:09
Spike Spiegel
I wouldn't be sad about prices if there would be proof of usage for the product
23:09
Or some DAC's getting funded on regular basis
23:10
Or even basic marketing like putting Amoveo in https://proofofwork.news/ newsletter or creating good explainers / blogposts
M
23:12
what partnerships in automoveo?
23:12
i dont understand
Z
23:43
Zack
We just aren't ready for that kind of commitment, we thought it would be a more casual sort of thing, you know?
23:44
haha
23:44
I don't understand what a "partnership" even means. People wasting time talking when they could be building.
Z
23:45
Zack
Everyone should be making tools that you can build on top of and reuse
20 July 2019
Z
00:31
Zack
Live feed of amoveo blocks being stored in compressed batches. This is how we are syncing so fast now.
https://twitter.com/MachinePix/status/1150175597391335424?s=09
https://twitter.com/MachinePix/status/1150175597391335424?s=09
B
00:34
Beer
that is just such an awesome machine just by the way
[
00:35
[Riki]
Bars should use this machine for pouring drinks
Z
00:37
Zack
I am guessing that you don't own a bar
[
00:38
Do you use blockchain to touch chins
L
00:38
Larry
Chins on the blockchain!
00:38
Hey Riki! 👋🏻
Z
00:38
Zack
I think it is a translation thing, he speaks urdu or hindi
Š
00:39
Šea
In reply to this message
Im sure you wanted to ask him if he could promote amoveo in his bar
M
02:49
meaning varies
Z
02:50
Zack
it reminds me of youtube crossovers, where 2 youtube personalities do a show together, to try and share their audiences.
M
02:52
M
In reply to this message
they're providing info on development and where the project is going
02:52
its used for hype too, sure
02:53
but in order to succeed you need a lot of attention too
02:53
and you need to be credible
Deleted joined group by link from Group
10:00
Deleted Account
Zack a1.exchange didn't resolved the problem my withdraw request. And not only me. Please contact him or remove a1.exchange out Amoveo's community.
10:02
Now I can not login into my account at A1 😂
Z
10:19
Zack
In reply to this message
ok, I will try contacting them again. if they don't resolve it soon, I will remove the link to their project from our github.
10:19
Deleted Account
👍
Z
10:59
Zack
Maybe we should make a prize to write a quine in chalang
10:59
so that the final value on the chalang stack is a binary, which is identical to the bytecode of the program.
Z
12:20
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/issues
I came up with these 3 proposals for hard updates to make chalang better.
I came up with these 3 proposals for hard updates to make chalang better.
12:24
Maybe making the contracts shorter this way is a waste, and we should instead focus on updating the api so that smart contracts are compressed when they are transferred or stored.
Z
19:03
Zack
I got the new compiler working, and I rewrote th ebinary smart contract for it.
It went from taking a minute to compile the contract, to now it is almost instant.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/experimental/apps/amoveo_core/priv/market2.scm
It went from taking a minute to compile the contract, to now it is almost instant.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/experimental/apps/amoveo_core/priv/market2.scm
19:04
the binary went from 1600 bytes to 2400.
But I think that is because I used local variables everywhere, and with some small adjustments I will be able to get it below 1600.
But I think that is because I used local variables everywhere, and with some small adjustments I will be able to get it below 1600.
21 July 2019
Z
07:18
Zack
I added error messages to the compiler. It covers using opcodes as functions, user defined functions, and commands built in to the compiler.
And I added a tool so you can embed forth directly, so you can bypass those error messages.
It prints out the part of the code where the error had occurred. So you can quickly know what went wrong.
And I added a tool so you can embed forth directly, so you can bypass those error messages.
It prints out the part of the code where the error had occurred. So you can quickly know what went wrong.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
ALGO invited ALGO
Z
18:59
Zack
The smart contract we are using for bets with the p2p derivatives tool is complicated because we are re-using the same contract as we use for making bets in a market with single price batches. So it has a lot of code to enforce the batching mechanism.
I wrote a much smaller binary bet contract, it should be easier to understand as well. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/experimental/apps/amoveo_core/priv/binary_bet.scm
I wrote a much smaller binary bet contract, it should be easier to understand as well. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/experimental/apps/amoveo_core/priv/binary_bet.scm
19:02
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/experimental/apps/amoveo_core/priv/binary_bet.scm#L22
These last few lines are the part to focus on.
You can see the logic for how payments are calculated depending on the results of the oracle.
These last few lines are the part to focus on.
You can see the logic for how payments are calculated depending on the results of the oracle.
ŽM
20:53
Živojin Mirić
Very good Zack
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
22:57
Zack
The market contract is slow to close if you don't have your partners cooperation. But this new contract is fast.
I am thinking I will update the light node to use this new better smaller contract for p2p derivatives.
I am thinking I will update the light node to use this new better smaller contract for p2p derivatives.
22:57
It is nice having this effective compiler, it makes it easy to write new contracts.
22 July 2019
Michael Ryan invited Michael Ryan
mr x invited mr x
Z
15:00
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/UMA.md review of UMA's oracle design
SS
15:03
Spike Spiegel
I suggest cross-posting the review as tweet-storm
15:03
It's very effective strategy
Z
15:04
Zack
right. this is your chance to make final suggestions before I put it on twitter
SS
15:07
Spike Spiegel
My suggestion - create a dictionary of terms with definitions.
Also some charts ( may be hand drawn ) - for example 3.1 1.1 etc... security taxonomy would work best as an infographic
Also some charts ( may be hand drawn ) - for example 3.1 1.1 etc... security taxonomy would work best as an infographic
15:09
Better definition: what is voting, what is futarchy, what is Nakamoto consensus wrt Schelling point for truth
Z
15:09
Zack
like the exploding head meme?
15:09
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/trust_theory.md I could add a graphic like that to this document
15:10
like that?
15:10
bigger brain
SS
15:11
1. Introducing the basic concepts from the ground up ( assuming zero knowledge about them )
15:11
2. Constructing theory with them
15:12
Right now if I start in some place every word requires me to already know other things
15:14
tl;dr hire an editor on fiverr for few bucks. Thank me later :)
Z
15:15
Zack
a lot of you guys have more motivation than $5, and you are more knowledgeable than people on fiverr
15:17
In reply to this message
can you give examples?
I use words like "futarchy" to encourage people to google for more, but I don't think there is anywhere in the document where you need to understand the definition of "futarchy" to be able to understand any of the points I am trying to make about UMA
I use words like "futarchy" to encourage people to google for more, but I don't think there is anywhere in the document where you need to understand the definition of "futarchy" to be able to understand any of the points I am trying to make about UMA
15:18
If I go off on a sub-rant about the definition of futarchy, I feel like that would distract from the goals of this document.
Like, how is the definition of futarchy even related to shortcomings in UMA anyway?
Like, how is the definition of futarchy even related to shortcomings in UMA anyway?
SS
15:18
This shows how hard is to explain something so 90%+ of people would understand
Z
15:19
Zack
I think it is useful to use words that people don't know about if you are specifically giving them the word so that they can google search to learn more.
15:19
it is the same reason we have references at the bottom of research papers. for people who want to learn more.
SS
15:20
Spike Spiegel
You don't have to assume that reader is stupid if you write science paper.
For cryptocurrency you have to assume IQ sub 100
For cryptocurrency you have to assume IQ sub 100
Z
15:20
Zack
I agree that writing in such a way that you expect your reader to already know the definitions of complicated words is a bad strategy that limits your audience.
SS
15:22
Spike Spiegel
re: theory of trust:
The first number is how bad attacks can be where we can know the attack occured, and the second is how bad the attacks can be where the attack is indistinguishible from unlucky randomness.
The first number is how bad attacks can be where we can know the attack occured, and the second is how bad the attacks can be where the attack is indistinguishible from unlucky randomness.
15:24
I do not claim that I'm an expert in marketing or science. I just see the gradient - UMA protocol is doing good job at explaining the protocol ( it may be flawed - but at least they are getting a lot of feedback )
15:25
Also: I don't understand this part:
The first number is how bad attacks can be where we can know the attack occured, and the second is how bad the attacks can be where the attack is indistinguishible from unlucky randomness.
The first number is how bad attacks can be where we can know the attack occured, and the second is how bad the attacks can be where the attack is indistinguishible from unlucky randomness.
15:25
Distinguishing between "we know attack was there" vs random events
15:25
How would you know if bitcoin network is attacked?
Z
15:27
Zack
In reply to this message
For example, in Zcash everyone's balances are anonymous. so if someone printed new zcoins from nothing, they could spend them and we wouldn't even know an attack had occured.
or another example, in financial markets today sometimes the market operator will sell a faster connection to some of the traders, which gives those traders the ability to front-run everyone else, and basically collect a fee from all the other traders.
The other traders don't know about the extra hidden fee, they just think that they are unlucky and keep getting matched at a slightly worse price than they had expected.
or another example, in financial markets today sometimes the market operator will sell a faster connection to some of the traders, which gives those traders the ability to front-run everyone else, and basically collect a fee from all the other traders.
The other traders don't know about the extra hidden fee, they just think that they are unlucky and keep getting matched at a slightly worse price than they had expected.
SS
15:28
Spike Spiegel
Ok, so this is transparency requirement?
Z
15:28
Zack
the first digit is security in the case where we can identify someone to blame when things go wrong.
the second digit is security where we don't know who broke it.
the second digit is security where we don't know who broke it.
SS
15:28
Spike Spiegel
Centralised solutions may be or may be not transparent?
15:29
Or is this theory just for cryptocurrency projects?
Z
15:30
Zack
For example, when you buy medication, it comes in a sealed container.
So you can know if someone tampered with your medicine.
If the seal is broken, it doesn't tell you who opened it. It just tells you that it was opened.
So seals are 4.1 level secure.
So you can know if someone tampered with your medicine.
If the seal is broken, it doesn't tell you who opened it. It just tells you that it was opened.
So seals are 4.1 level secure.
15:33
In reply to this message
this theory of trust is just a way of assigning numbers to mechanisms so we can quickly communicate about the relative security of those mechanisms.
Like how they use the Richter scale to talk about the relative size of earthquakes.
In the blockchain community they talk about "trust" and "security", but if we want to compare the trustfulness of different systems, that means we need a way of quantifying the trustfulness.
Like how they use the Richter scale to talk about the relative size of earthquakes.
In the blockchain community they talk about "trust" and "security", but if we want to compare the trustfulness of different systems, that means we need a way of quantifying the trustfulness.
15:40
If there are 2 mechanisms, one is 3.3 and the other is 3.2, then the 3.2 mechanism is generally going to be cheaper to operate than the 3.3 mechanism.
Since we can identify the attacker, it gives us more opportunities to make the attack expensive for them. And we can use some reputation tools to make attacks more expensive.
3.3 and 3.2 are different classes of mechanisms which operate on different kinds of assumptions.
Since we can identify the attacker, it gives us more opportunities to make the attack expensive for them. And we can use some reputation tools to make attacks more expensive.
3.3 and 3.2 are different classes of mechanisms which operate on different kinds of assumptions.
SS
15:45
Spike Spiegel
Can you formally define those?
Z
15:46
Zack
yeah, they are defined in the trust paper
SS
15:46
Spike Spiegel
I'm starting to get feel for the theory but without 16 examples I think my knowledge is impartial
Z
15:46
Zack
16 examples?
SS
15:46
Spike Spiegel
1-4.1-4 4*4
Z
15:46
Zack
there are only 10 kinds, not 16
SS
15:46
Spike Spiegel
ah, my bad
Z
15:47
Zack
1+2+3+4
15:47
1.1
2.1 2.2
3.1 3.2 3.3
4.1 4.2 4.3 4.4
2.1 2.2
3.1 3.2 3.3
4.1 4.2 4.3 4.4
15:47
because there is never a situation where attacks can only be done anonymously. you can always choose to reveal yourself as the attacker if you wanted to.
15:51
yeah, I can add an example for each of the 10. that sounds like a good idea
Z
16:48
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/trust_theory.md
I added the 10 examples to the bottom
I added the 10 examples to the bottom
SS
16:48
Spike Spiegel
"And it is not profitable for him, because in that case he would lose all the money in all the smart contracts." why?
16:49
The examples are great
Z
16:50
Zack
In reply to this message
the smart contract is programmed so that if you can prove that the server has signed 2 different prices for the same batch, that you can instantly take all the money out of the smart contract.
16:51
once one person publishes the proof, then it is available to everyone else who has a smart contract with that server
16:51
so we all can do it, and the server loses everything
SS
16:54
Spike Spiegel
I think if the second digit should be called the "unsealed trust level" or "sincere trust",
16:54
why second digit is from 1 to 4 if it's binary?
Z
16:54
Zack
it isn't binary
SS
16:54
Spike Spiegel
What about using terms like explicit or implicit
16:55
I still have trouble understanding
16:55
Can you describe both digits independently?
16:56
2.1/2.2 what's the difference?
Z
16:56
Zack
The first digit is like if someone mugs you and you see their face. the second digit is if they mug you and they are wearing a mask.
16:56
the second digit is for if you don't know who did it
16:57
the first digit is when you can identify the attacker in some way. so we can use some reputation system to enforce good behavior.
SS
16:58
Spike Spiegel
The miners can't rob us, so the payment is just to give you a good spot in line
16:58
In Ethereum miners may rob the user AFAIK but other miners would invalidate the state / block
Z
17:01
Zack
When reviewing a mechanism, it is important to keep the trust level they are targeting in mind. All parts of the mechanism need to be at least this secure.
I think this is a useful way of communicating about mechanisms, so we can quickly realize the context to frame their proposal inside of.
I think this is a useful way of communicating about mechanisms, so we can quickly realize the context to frame their proposal inside of.
17:06
One time the Komodo had an idea for a 4.2 oracle, and all the parts were at least 4.2
17:07
He was able to have a very large volume of data into the consensus state using 4.2 level trust.
It takes us at least a week to confirm a few bits of data, he wanted to do > 1 megabyte per second.
It takes us at least a week to confirm a few bits of data, he wanted to do > 1 megabyte per second.
SS
17:13
Spike Spiegel
what's the security of maker?
17:15
oracle price feed can do elaborate changes to steal money but it would be obvious who did this
17:15
4.1 ?
Z
17:16
Zack
I don't know
SS
17:18
Spike Spiegel
So why you claim it's unsecure?
Z
17:20
Zack
Maybe I reviewed them at one point. currently, I don't remember anything about them.
SS
17:23
Spike Spiegel
you were saying it's a risk monoculture
17:23
but it isn't exactly true - people have different liquidation prices for their CDP's
SS
18:49
Spike Spiegel
I think that trust theory is valuable in itself
S
23:37
SSDD
👀👌
S
23:37
SSDD
A
Amoveo News 22.07.2019 22:55:40
This week's newsletter covers the BTC 2019, second public DAC from Exantech, a new video with Roger Ver on Amoveo YouTube channel and much more.
Read more about it here: https://amoveo.substack.com/p/19-amoveo-at-barcelona-trading-conference
Read more about it here: https://amoveo.substack.com/p/19-amoveo-at-barcelona-trading-conference
23 July 2019
Ya Ya invited Ya Ya
Z9
01:05
can't wait to see 2.1 oracles like amoveo wipe the floor with the rest of the garbage pretenders
01:05
Zack is the key to the oracle problem
YY
01:06
Ya Ya
Hi, any admin?
Z9
01:06
Zackatron 9000
big up my man. eyes on the prize and don't let anything stop you
01:07
what happened to chainlink and their amazing community? $4.5 dollars pump so that prick Sergey can take a giant dump on their bagholders
01:07
SFYL
ŽM
01:09
Živojin Mirić
Wat is
01:09
Zackatron
01:09
Is zack?
Z9
01:09
Zackatron 9000
it is the tribute of divinification of the oracle solver
01:09
a token of my gratitude
Z
01:10
Zack
Not me.
01:11
This is hilarious. I like the profile picture.
Z9
01:11
Zackatron 9000
it is an honour to carry it
MF
01:16
Mr Flintstone
lol
I
01:44
Instinct
😂
EA
02:32
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Zackatron must be the all-knowing AI Amoveo God Zack created, coming back from the future
Z9
02:35
Zackatron 9000
I am the instrument of His will.
Z
07:24
Zack
Lots of people pay attention to hot vacation spots, if we can do something exciting with futarchy in a city like that, a lot of people would hear about it.
Airbnb prices give us a good way of measuring how effective tourism strategies are in a city.
I think we should try to use futarchy to legalize or decriminalize recreational drugs in some cities with tourism.
Airbnb prices give us a good way of measuring how effective tourism strategies are in a city.
I think we should try to use futarchy to legalize or decriminalize recreational drugs in some cities with tourism.
07:33
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
I agree with you. Most writers do that. Just add references or other links.
07:43
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
what's futarchy? True though when certain recreational drugs we're decriminalized, the use of prescription drugs lowers, OD's happen much less. I Can't believe it but people become less likely to get addicted... I think that's how they did it in some parts in europe 😕
Z
08:56
Zack
I added case statements to the new compiler. they compile a lot shorter than cond in some cases.
And I set it up so you need to declare global variables before you can use them, which means we can have nice error messages for spelling errors.
And I set it up so you need to declare global variables before you can use them, which means we can have nice error messages for spelling errors.
08:57
preventing spelling errors also makes it a lot harder to write a contract that looks like it does one thing, but actually does something else.
Z
09:36
Zack
I added immutability requirements to the compiler.
Now you can't redefine local or global variables.
Now you can't redefine local or global variables.
09:40
you can bypass the immutability requirement by embedding bits of assembly into your program.
Š
15:15
Ban him
S
15:19
Sy
It looks like the fpga miners finally did a recalculation of their earnings and realized they are bad and moved on....or a F1 warehouse has a maintenance / power outtake / is burning 😝 anyway, they are gone again...for now
15:19
hashrate dropped from roughly 27 TH to ~4
Š
15:19
Šea
Wow
S
15:20
Sy
Š
15:20
Šea
Can we raise the rewards again pls
15:20
😅
Gatis Eglitis invited Denis
Z
Z
17:43
Zack
In reply to this message
Hart lambert responded in pm:
"Hi Zack, this is pretty entertaining. I love the hyperbole. I really appreciate honest feedback (and was absolutely inviting a review). The two critiques I think you are trying to make are on parasitic usage, and on bribes and collusion. On parasitic usage you didn't grok what we wrote (the oracle doesn't report a price, it reports a payout that is only valuable to the valid contract); so I don't think your critique holds. On bribes and collusion, well, your math and assumptions are pretty sloppy. I'd encourage you to work through both the single and repeated game analysis."
"Hi Zack, this is pretty entertaining. I love the hyperbole. I really appreciate honest feedback (and was absolutely inviting a review). The two critiques I think you are trying to make are on parasitic usage, and on bribes and collusion. On parasitic usage you didn't grok what we wrote (the oracle doesn't report a price, it reports a payout that is only valuable to the valid contract); so I don't think your critique holds. On bribes and collusion, well, your math and assumptions are pretty sloppy. I'd encourage you to work through both the single and repeated game analysis."
MF
21:57
Mr Flintstone
thanks
EA
MF
22:58
Mr Flintstone
just because an oracle reports a payout instead of true/false doesn’t mean the incentives to manipulate its outcome suddenly change
22:59
you still get paid if you make it report a certain outcome just as much as if it were true/false
24 July 2019
Z
04:18
Zack
In reply to this message
Rebute what? He calls me sloppy and tells me I am wrong. There is no argument for me to respond to.
04:21
In reply to this message
Right. This is basic information theory.
It doesn't matter how you encode a bit of data, as long as we all know how to decode it.
It doesn't matter how you encode a bit of data, as long as we all know how to decode it.
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
14:53
Zack
I have an idea for a hard update.
Currently you need to make an oracle before you can bet on it, that way you know the OID.
If we deterministicly generate the OID based on the question being asked and when trading will begin, then it should be possible for us to reference oracles that have not been created.
That means, as long as the participants agree on the outcome of the contract, they never have to create an oracle in the first place.
Currently you need to make an oracle before you can bet on it, that way you know the OID.
If we deterministicly generate the OID based on the question being asked and when trading will begin, then it should be possible for us to reference oracles that have not been created.
That means, as long as the participants agree on the outcome of the contract, they never have to create an oracle in the first place.
14:54
This could make the default workflow of making new bets a lot smoother.
14:56
it is cheaper and more scalable and faster
15:00
If I can post a p2p derivative trade on anything I want, without having to have paid for an oracle first, then I am a lot more willing to try out posting more trades.
I think this is a serious improvement in regard to using Amoveo for the long-tail of opportunities.
I think this is a serious improvement in regard to using Amoveo for the long-tail of opportunities.
15:03
currently we are free to set the oid to any unused key, so this is a one-line update. and it is soft, not hard.
We just block any oracles where the oid wasn't created according to the new rule.
We just block any oracles where the oid wasn't created according to the new rule.
15:08
it is only 1 line in erlang, but a lot of javascript code would need to be changed, and the smart contract needs to change.
I
AK
15:18
A K
Nice idea!
M
16:14
Marek
Where is the list of light wallet nodes zacks explorer and so on..?
Z
16:15
Zack
get the light node from github
Z
16:35
Zack
In reply to this message
If you think the plan isn't good, please share your reasoning why we should not waste time on this plan.
Calling an idea "autistic" doesn't help us improve, it doesn't add any value to this forum, and it is disparaging against the mentally handicapped, which could potentially make other people in the community feel unwelcome here.
Calling an idea "autistic" doesn't help us improve, it doesn't add any value to this forum, and it is disparaging against the mentally handicapped, which could potentially make other people in the community feel unwelcome here.
ŽM
16:36
Živojin Mirić
that's not a plan I must say, it's an idea
16:36
if it was a plan you would have exact steps
16:37
I was telling it to Zack but ok
16:38
you should not waste your time on this idea because Amoveo and it's futarchy are not connected to any entity that has governing power
16:38
in any way
16:38
it's a good "one day" idea if amoveo takes over the world
16:38
in this state it's just not connected to the real world
Z
16:41
Zack
In reply to this message
Whether or not the laws actually get changed doesn't impact whether or not the plan is a success.
It reduces legitimacy in the government's decision making power, by pulling back the curtain and making it obvious how irrational their policy really is.
If Amoveo can be a part of eroding government legitimacy, that could lead to a lot of people talking about Amoveo.
It reduces legitimacy in the government's decision making power, by pulling back the curtain and making it obvious how irrational their policy really is.
If Amoveo can be a part of eroding government legitimacy, that could lead to a lot of people talking about Amoveo.
ŽM
16:41
Živojin Mirić
oh then I got you in a wrong way
16:41
:D
16:42
then this is just pure wishful thinking
16:43
you can get more people talking about amoveo in much more realistic and efficient ways
16:43
it's called marketing in the real world
Z
16:46
Zack
In reply to this message
yes, such a plan should probably include a marketing component as well.
It is more convincing if we show people how to use futarchy to make political changes, instead of just telling them to do it.
It is more convincing if we show people how to use futarchy to make political changes, instead of just telling them to do it.
16:50
One of my favorite cities has now become too dangerous to visit because some drug cartel took over, and rule of law has collapsed. My friends are living in fear because of this problem.
Changing to a more sensible drug policy would make their lives better.
Changing to a more sensible drug policy would make their lives better.
ŽM
16:51
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
you can't show people how to use futarchy to make political changes if you don't ever make a political change with it directly
16:52
people are generally not affected with something so abstract and especially random Joe
Z
16:52
Zack
In reply to this message
even if the law doesn't change, simply making the irrationality of the system more obvious is a significant improvement.
That is the point of journalism. They help to reveal information so that the public can be informed.
That is the point of journalism. They help to reveal information so that the public can be informed.
ŽM
16:52
Živojin Mirić
people already know the irrationality
16:52
that's the thing
16:52
it's common knowledge
16:53
if futarchy isn't affecting something directly it's wasted effort in my opinion
16:53
you are overestimating average people Zack
Z
16:53
Zack
Not really. Most Mexicans don't understand the connection between the drug law and the cartel violence. The church tells them to vote to keep the drugs illegal.
Journalism is suppressed in Mexico.
Journalism is suppressed in Mexico.
ŽM
16:54
Živojin Mirić
and you expect them to grasp futarchy and how it's better for them lol
16:54
it would be much more efficient if you went the "FUTARCHY == RELIGION" way
16:54
with people like that
16:54
make a cult Zack
16:54
much better than these high level ideas
16:54
I am honest really
Z
16:55
Zack
yes, I do expect typical Mexicans to look at the prices in markets and understand what it means.
If you are running an AirBNB in Cancun, and the market says that legalizing weed in the city will mean you can charge twice as much to rent your AirBNB, this will be important information that they will care a lot about learning.
If you are running an AirBNB in Cancun, and the market says that legalizing weed in the city will mean you can charge twice as much to rent your AirBNB, this will be important information that they will care a lot about learning.
16:57
If you are running a beach side hotel resort in Cancun, this kind of information is very important to you
ŽM
16:59
Živojin Mirić
in theory this can work but it's so farfetched and unrealistic that anyone in Cancun will take information from VEO Futarchy as relevant is just naive
16:59
maybe if VEO was in a different state
17:00
later stage, million times more adopted IRL etc.
17:02
I mean you can try and we will see the result, my common sense is telling me that it's unrealistic
17:03
I would like to see comments from more members of this community
17:03
about ideas like these
Z
17:04
Zack
I feel like people are more likely to start a conversation with each other about a blockchain project that is attempting to legalize weed in their vacation spot, vs talking about an abstract futarchy project.
ŽM
17:05
Živojin Mirić
I fully agree with you
17:05
but it's impossible that amoveo legalizes weed so the attempt is futile
17:07
in a world with corrupted politicians and empty marketing ploys that have too much of an effect on the world this just seems like a fart in a hurricane
I
17:08
Instinct
In reply to this message
It's a form of marketing in itself + possibly raises the idea to wider community there. It doesnt enforce the legality
Z
17:08
Zack
its not about actually legalizing though. it is about standing up to them, and showing that they are irrational, which is also something that people would talk about and get behind.
ŽM
17:08
Živojin Mirić
ok I get that but I think it would be extremely uneffective
17:09
you should focus on more effective stuff in the marketing direction
17:09
populism works if you already have a "voice" or a footing IRL
17:09
not when you are obscure
17:10
I mean you are battling priests in local church
17:10
with high tech obscure blockchain project
I
17:10
Instinct
There needs to be a starting point lol
ŽM
17:10
Živojin Mirić
and targets are common people from Mexico
17:10
you lost in the start
17:10
marketing wise
I
17:11
Instinct
I don't think there's much downside to trying ideas & failing rn unless it takes significant resources
ŽM
17:12
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
I agree with this but when the idea is so unrealistic and doomed from the start (that's my opinion) then the downside is even trying it
17:13
but ok I am just voicing my opinion, if someone tries that we will see the result
J
19:38
JOHNwick3's dog
try everything
19:38
People thought bitcoin was crazy too when it first came out.
19:39
Anyone looking to use Amoveo. try to think in terms of small experiments. you don't need to change the world right now. just test something simple.
19:45
It would be helpful to have a youtube explaining what amoveo is and a minimum viable product tht shows that the coin can work for something simple.
M
19:50
Marek
Whats difference between 139.59.144.76:8080/txs.html or wallet.html can i use wallet.html or shoud i use txs.html
19:51
In a case just send some veo
I
Z
S
20:49
SSDD
🤔
S
20:49
SSDD
A
Amoveo News 24.07.2019 20:14:28
Another video with Beth McCarthy from Starfish where we asked her what she thinks about Prediction Markets technology and how this tech can show the true power of blockchain 👀
Watch the video here: https://youtu.be/k6XTIBLQYgw
Watch the video here: https://youtu.be/k6XTIBLQYgw
I
Z
23:36
Zack
In reply to this message
If you don't think futarchy will happen, then why get involved with Amoveo?
bjorn invited bjorn
25 July 2019
Z
01:42
Zack
I want everyone to feel comfortable talking about their concerns with regard to amoveo.
If we want to improve, we need to face our weaknesses head on, to acknowledge their existence.
If we want to improve, we need to face our weaknesses head on, to acknowledge their existence.
EA
K
01:51
K
In reply to this message
just the website. seems too biased, don't think people will take it seriously from one look
01:51
I said it before but yeah it would be good if it could be changed
Z
01:52
Zack
If you talk to the exan.tech team about your specific suggested changes, I think they will make those improvements.
01:55
In reply to this message
I was inspired by reviewing uma. They do something similar for oracle scalability.
01:56
It seems like amoveo gains more from these reviews than the project I am supposedly trying to help.
A
01:57
ALGO
In reply to this message
Hey feel free to DM about things you feel can be improved on the website - I have contact with the exantech reps who built out the site, so your recommendations will definetly be considered 👍
K
Z
03:57
Zack
https://www.unhashedpodcast.com/episodes/paul-sztorc-prediction-markets
Paul Sztorc is great. im listening to this
Paul Sztorc is great. im listening to this
03:59
#BitcoinSuperPAC haha
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Z
EA
05:03
Eric Arsenault
Great excerpt
b
05:33
bjorn
Hi, what is veo about?
Z
Z
16:57
in 2 minutes, Robin Hanson explains the strategy amoveo uses to avoid manipulation of our governance and oracle systems
16:59
Manipulators are sheep!
Z
17:35
in 1 minute, David Friedman compares futarchy against our current decision making mechanisms.
17:48
17:48
17:49
here is the same two audio files in mp3 format, since that can auto-play in some browsers.
Z
18:05
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/pull/9/files
planning out the hard update to add these new features to chalang
planning out the hard update to add these new features to chalang
18:13
Deleted Account
Hey guys. Is there a dev fee in the block reward?
18:13
Or the transactions?
Z
18:13
Zack
there is a dev fee for each block. it is set by the governance mechanism.
18:14
Deleted Account
Is governance by hashrate?
Z
18:14
Zack
no, we use futarchy
18:14
Deleted Account
And what's the % of the block reward dev fee
18:14
Ok cool
Z
18:14
Zack
currently 1/6th
18:14
so 16.66%
Z
18:44
Zack
I merged the race condition fix that Sy helped us find from experimental into master branch.
This should prevent the master branch from crashing while syncing the way it had been.
This should prevent the master branch from crashing while syncing the way it had been.
Musdafi invited Musdafi
Z
19:02
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/commit/fb52c36d6dfe66959996ed9d102bdf63f7178847
These are some changes I want to activate in chalang with a hard fork.
They don't change chalang's functionality at all, they just allow us to write the same things using fewer bytes, so our contracts can be shorter.
If you think this is a bad idea, contact me, and we can do a futarchy market to verify that it is a good thing.
These are some changes I want to activate in chalang with a hard fork.
They don't change chalang's functionality at all, they just allow us to write the same things using fewer bytes, so our contracts can be shorter.
If you think this is a bad idea, contact me, and we can do a futarchy market to verify that it is a good thing.
19:08
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/issues/258
This is a potentially controversial hard update to Amoveo's oracle mechanism that is being considered. It would make it cheaper to launch new oracles.
This is a potentially controversial hard update to Amoveo's oracle mechanism that is being considered. It would make it cheaper to launch new oracles.
Z
EA
23:47
Eric Arsenault
Nice
Z
23:48
Zack
I just wish I could have put more horn in.
CD
23:54
Crypt Dweller
I know Paul is Mr. Prediction Markets, but I am still surprised by his level of optimism, which sees them as a world-historical technology, cosmically important even, and I can guarantee Paul is leaps and bounds smarter than any of the people mocking Zack's ambitions with 'f3wtArchy'
23:56
Robin Hanson, Paul Sztorc and Zack are in fact some of the most brilliant thinkers in the U.S. The fact that all of them are fixated on coming up with a solution for workable prediction markets indicates both the world-changing potential of the technology, and that at least of one of them should have a good chance of success
26 July 2019
I
Z
00:13
Zack
I took it out of the preview for Inception
J
06:00
JOHNwick3's dog
In reply to this message
Can you put the names of who is talking below the video please?
The horns are too much for the video... i'm just trying to listen and all i hear is %$%$%$%$%$%$
The horns are too much for the video... i'm just trying to listen and all i hear is %$%$%$%$%$%$
06:00
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
EA
06:00
Eric Arsenault
😂
Z
EA
10:10
Eric Arsenault
Hahaha 😂
10:11
The video would be so long
10:11
I like it as is
Z
10:12
these are all probably the most copy-righted sounds available
10:14
the transitions in my videos are almost as awkward as the transitions in the rest of my conversations
EA
10:14
Eric Arsenault
Lol yeah but that’s what I found entertaining
Z
Z
12:59
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/issues/257
I ran into an issue with implementing this.
Currently, scalar oracles use 10 oracle IDs that are adjacent, so if you know the first one's ID, then you can calculate the rest.
If we instead calculate the oracle's id from it's contents, then all 10 will have totally random hashes, and cannot be adjacent.
I ran into an issue with implementing this.
Currently, scalar oracles use 10 oracle IDs that are adjacent, so if you know the first one's ID, then you can calculate the rest.
If we instead calculate the oracle's id from it's contents, then all 10 will have totally random hashes, and cannot be adjacent.
Z
13:30
Zack
We should take the time to make everything compatible with the new format before we start enforcing it at the blockchain consensus level
13:32
I think even the smart contract needs to change, since we will store 10 different oracle ids instead of just 1.
M
K
18:21
K
Was there a decision to reduce the block reward?
18:21
If so, what's it at atm?
Z
18:23
Zack
No. We are raising it.
18:23
It is 0.1 now. Will be 0.16 soon
DV
18:29
Denis Voskvitsov
AFAIU those p2p offers about block reward / price increase were successfully accepted. so how did it come about raising reward?
Z
18:30
Zack
I didn't see any evidence that anyone had matched it.
18:30
It expired unmatched
K
Z
18:34
Zack
Around 130 blocks per day
K
18:35
K
damn that's small
18:35
7.5k coins :)
18:42
Would you consider increasing the supply by x100 fold to make each individual coin cheaper?
18:43
It will probably attract more newbies to the coin
Š
18:43
Šea
No, it was done before, and then we switched it back
18:43
1 veo = 0.5btc
K
Š
18:45
Šea
Cant remember
Z
18:45
Zack
I think you will need futarchy to organize the community for a decision like this.
Š
18:46
But it will be no success anyway
K
18:50
K
In reply to this message
Why are you so certain? I think the community will like newbies buying up the coin
Š
18:51
Šea
Cause it was done before
K
Š
18:54
Šea
Half a year ago maybe
18:55
Maybe more
S
19:19
Sy
lol yeah that was annoying, everyone switched, nobody really liked it
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
20:39
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/experimental/apps/amoveo_core/priv/market2.scm
The lisp binary market code is now compatible with the new lisp compiler.
It is compiling to 1866 bytes.
Compared to 1750 for hand-written assembler, it seems decent enough.
The lisp binary market code is now compatible with the new lisp compiler.
It is compiling to 1866 bytes.
Compared to 1750 for hand-written assembler, it seems decent enough.
20:42
Now you need to declare global variables before you can use them. This allows the compiler to catch spelling errors.
Previously it was assuming any spelling error was just a new global variable, which lead to some hard to find bugs.
Previously it was assuming any spelling error was just a new global variable, which lead to some hard to find bugs.
20:43
I think this compiler is giving better error messages than mit-scheme now.
20:47
I found away to get it down to 1650 bytes.
Using case instead of cond.
So now the new version is the shortest version.
Using case instead of cond.
So now the new version is the shortest version.
SS
20:49
Spike Spiegel
There is discussion in DeFi community about whether "DeFi" projects are existing somewhere else than ETH blockchain
20:55
Thanks for posting the video
MF
20:58
Mr Flintstone
when people say defi they usually just mean blockchain finance instead of decentralized finance
Z
21:18
Zack
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=higdjijPP1s&feature=youtu.be I added a transcript of text to the video, in case audio english is difficult for anyone.
MF
22:24
Mr Flintstone
did you transcribe the horns?
Z
22:24
Zack
almost, but I decided not to
22:25
I am pushing the 5000 character limit for a video description
22:32
Everyone besides Robin has weird accents that might make it difficult to understand them.
27 July 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
B
00:31
Ben
i really love the wallet created from the exan tech guys, i wish they would also take care of the betting in their wallet.
I
MF
00:39
Mr Flintstone
I think it is best to wait until the latest update to betting has been programmed by Zack. it is much different from the current workflow
00:39
and i don’t think it will change much after that, at least that I can foresee
Z
01:13
Zack
it is going to take a while before I release another version.
01:13
I will support both version of the light node for a while while we transition
MF
01:49
Mr Flintstone
yeah, I’m just saying effort to build UX on the old version may be misplaced
Z
01:50
Zack
oh right, that is true
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Deleted invited Deleted Account
B
10:28
Ben
to be quite honest i don't see why that 20 VEO funding for that was not done from the Dev-Fund, it is obv. that these guys do a great job.
Z
B
10:45
Ben
that would mean we get and very low hanging fruit and the project makes a progress an regards to a usable UX.
Z
10:47
Zack
So you are saying you want me to work for free for 2 weeks? Because I don't find this argument convincing.
10:48
Just because it would be nice doesn't seem to be a good argument to pay for it out of my paycheck.
B
10:49
Ben
got it, forget that i mentioned it.
Z
12:59
Zack
http://explorer.veopool.pw/index.php?input=BPdmz3L4sx6Y9hlpVpbkoHtPBLwirKsmjHxDU7JcCjl7OlERxnkjjhHdgkn2cyN4fdPWsiU4v1Yn2Lf9uhAuJDM=
Looks like someone made a 5 veo report which is contradictory from the result of the futarchy market that we should be reporting.
Looks like someone made a 5 veo report which is contradictory from the result of the futarchy market that we should be reporting.
13:01
maybe we should do a soft update to make sure this oracle resolves the way futarchy said it should.
@Simon3456 @Jbreezy0 @potat_o
Do you guys have any opinion about this? Would you participate in this soft update? Would you refuse to participate?
@Simon3456 @Jbreezy0 @potat_o
Do you guys have any opinion about this? Would you participate in this soft update? Would you refuse to participate?
B
13:17
Ben
either futarchy is the way to steer the variables then they should be linked to the gov variables otherwise it is redundant and can lead to diffrent results.
Z
B
13:18
Ben
the current process is redundant
Z
13:20
Zack
we have a off-chain futarchy market to find out which decision is best, and we have an oracle mechanism so we can report the outcome of the futarchy market to the blockchain.
The futarchy market and the oracle mechanism do both involve betting, but they are very different mechanisms from each other, and you cannot substitute one for the other.
The futarchy market and the oracle mechanism do both involve betting, but they are very different mechanisms from each other, and you cannot substitute one for the other.
B
13:21
Ben
in the past we could live quite well with the gov oracle on it's own.
Z
13:23
Zack
We learned more since then.
The futarchy market measures the correlation between the price of veo and our decision. So we can know which decision is better for the price of veo.
The oracle does not have this feature.
The futarchy market measures the correlation between the price of veo and our decision. So we can know which decision is better for the price of veo.
The oracle does not have this feature.
B
13:24
Ben
the futarchy is the same mechanic right? 3 choices.
OK
13:25
O K
I'll do whatever it takes
Z
13:26
Zack
no.
the futarchy market has 4 possible outcomes:
1) decision A and veo price is high
2) decision B and veo price is high
3) decision A and veo price is low
4) decision B and veo price is low
the governance market has 3 possible outcomes:
1) decision A
2) decision B
3) bad-question
Additionally, the bets in the futarchy market are all conditional bets. So if you bet on outcome (1), but we decide on decision B, then you haven't lost your bet. you get the same money back that you had put in.
the futarchy market has 4 possible outcomes:
1) decision A and veo price is high
2) decision B and veo price is high
3) decision A and veo price is low
4) decision B and veo price is low
the governance market has 3 possible outcomes:
1) decision A
2) decision B
3) bad-question
Additionally, the bets in the futarchy market are all conditional bets. So if you bet on outcome (1), but we decide on decision B, then you haven't lost your bet. you get the same money back that you had put in.
13:26
the oracle mechanism and governance mechanism do both involve betting, but the similarities end there. They are very different mechanisms designed with very different goals.
B
13:28
Ben
if futarchy decides what happen to the gov oracle, then there should be no option to vote on it at all.
Z
B
13:29
Ben
you want to do everytime a soft update when someone vote on a gov oracle and it does not match the futarchy result?
Z
13:29
Zack
voting can never work for blockchains https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/voting_in_blockchains.md
B
13:29
Ben
then remove it.
Z
13:30
Zack
In reply to this message
there is no voting in Amoveo.
Yes, since the governance oracle's state is not matching what the futarchy result said it should be, then we should use a soft update to enforce the result.
Yes, since the governance oracle's state is not matching what the futarchy result said it should be, then we should use a soft update to enforce the result.
B
13:30
Ben
why is there voting for gov oracles?
Z
13:30
Zack
that is why the governance oracle has such a long 1 week delay. so we can do soft forks to enforce the result of the futarchy markets
B
13:32
Ben
to me that process looks quite fishy and broken.
Z
13:36
Zack
In reply to this message
If we aren't willing to use Amoveo to govern Amoveo, then how can we possibly convince anyone to use Amoveo to govern their companies/cities/etc?
It seems to me that using Amoveo to govern Amoveo is a necessary step on the path to success.
So I guess futarchy isn't being explained well enough.
It seems to me that using Amoveo to govern Amoveo is a necessary step on the path to success.
So I guess futarchy isn't being explained well enough.
13:38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=higdjijPP1s I made a video recently to explain futarchy
B
13:39
Ben
if there is a 1:1 relation between the Futarchy market and the gov oracle, then the gov oracle should resolve the state automatially after the futarchy is done.
Z
13:40
Zack
In reply to this message
what does "1:1 relation" mean?
The futarchy market is off-chain inside the state channels. The blockchain can't see inside the state channels, so we need a mechanism to manually report the result.
The futarchy market is off-chain inside the state channels. The blockchain can't see inside the state channels, so we need a mechanism to manually report the result.
B
13:41
Ben
then looks like that is the weak link.
Z
13:43
Zack
what do you mean?
You would rather have on-chain smart contracts like Ethereum?
You would rather have on-chain smart contracts like Ethereum?
13:45
I can change pretty much anything about Amoveo if you come up with a better design, but I can't see this "weak link" you are talking about.
Our current futarchy design to me, it already seems as optimized as it can be, based on our current understanding of futarchy.
Our current futarchy design to me, it already seems as optimized as it can be, based on our current understanding of futarchy.
I
13:47
Instinct
I think he means the fact a soft update has to be done to change back to the futarchy decision. Someone has tried to override the result by betting over a week after
Z
13:48
Zack
Amoveo's oracle is ultimately based on nakamoto consensus and the network's ability to fork.
That is why we can achieve 2.2 level trust, and be orders of magnitude less expensive than the 3.2 votecoin-based design used in bitcoin hivemind and augur.
That is why we can achieve 2.2 level trust, and be orders of magnitude less expensive than the 3.2 votecoin-based design used in bitcoin hivemind and augur.
I
Z
13:50
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/oracle.md you can read about the oracle design here.
The oracle design and the futarchy design are different parts of Amoveo.
The oracle design and the futarchy design are different parts of Amoveo.
I
13:52
In reply to this message
What would have happened if you or others had not seen the 5 Veo bet?
Z
13:54
Zack
the oracle can only be closed after a week long period of staying in the same state.
13:55
If you are betting on an oracle, and your partner has disappeared, so you actually need to wait for the oracle to resolve, then you should probably check on that oracle every couple of days while it is being resolved to make sure it is working correctly.
If someone tries cheating the oracle resolution, that does mean anyone can get free money by preventing this manipulation, so we have an incentive to pay attention.
If someone tries cheating the oracle resolution, that does mean anyone can get free money by preventing this manipulation, so we have an incentive to pay attention.
B
14:11
Ben
btw. just to be clear the 5 veo bet was from me.
14:12
i was not fully aware that we have now a 2 step process and still see no need for it.
Z
14:12
Zack
Can you afford to make another bet and undo it? I hate to see you lose so much money.
14:13
We can do another futarchy market after this resolves to lower the block reward again, and during the futarchy market step you can make bets to give your opinion about how the block reward will impact the price.
14:14
making bets against each other in the oracle step is like playing a game of chicken that ultimately needs to be resolved by a soft fork, if it becomes big enough.
B
14:15
Ben
i don't think i something wrong, the documentation has no reference to that process.
14:15
i'm willing to do another 5 veo bet, if you fix the documentation
Z
14:15
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/using_governance.md
first sentence "We need to make futarchy markets before we update the governance variable, that way the community can come to consensus about what updates should be made."
first sentence "We need to make futarchy markets before we update the governance variable, that way the community can come to consensus about what updates should be made."
14:16
You should make the bet before someone else does, and they take your 5 veo.
S
14:17
Sy
i agree with ben here tho and i told you the same when you "introduced" that mechanism - if you dont force it somehow it wont work, you use a 2 step process to do something that can be done in one AND can be changed in the 2nd (gov oracle) even tho the first one resolved differently
14:17
you are working with humans here, one might be too lazy or ignorant to bet in the question and yet bet differently in the gov where something actually happens
Z
14:18
Zack
We use the futarchy market to measure how the governance decision will impact the price.
The oracle reporting step is unable to do this.
A private company making business decisions would use the futarchy market the same way, but they would not use the governance mechanism. They would make an internal business decision based on the outcome of the futarchy market.
The governance mechanism is the decision we are making, the futarchy market is how we find out which decision is best.
The oracle reporting step is unable to do this.
A private company making business decisions would use the futarchy market the same way, but they would not use the governance mechanism. They would make an internal business decision based on the outcome of the futarchy market.
The governance mechanism is the decision we are making, the futarchy market is how we find out which decision is best.
B
14:18
Ben
i used that page to see how to bet btw: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/api/commands_oracle.md
S
14:19
Sy
IF you want it to work like you propose the question oracle must either change the gov variable on close OR create a gov oracle in the correct direction in which no one can bet, everything else is kinda pointless because it applies to the niceness and reasoning of humans...which neither worked that well ever
14:19
i know why you do it...im still telling you it will never work without enforcing it somehow
14:20
as we just have proven ourself ^^
B
14:20
Ben
thats my point
Z
14:20
Zack
In reply to this message
the outcome of the question oracle doesn't determine the outcome of the governance though.
Like, if we were betting on the odds of rolling a 6 with a dice, it would be 16%
So the governance decision would be based on a price of 16%
If we actually roll a 6, then the oracle would report that the result was 6.
But that doesn't change the fact that the correct odds were 16%, and our governance decision should be based off those odds, not whether we rolled a 6 or not.
Like, if we were betting on the odds of rolling a 6 with a dice, it would be 16%
So the governance decision would be based on a price of 16%
If we actually roll a 6, then the oracle would report that the result was 6.
But that doesn't change the fact that the correct odds were 16%, and our governance decision should be based off those odds, not whether we rolled a 6 or not.
S
14:21
Sy
In reply to this message
and yet you are telling ben you will hate for him to loose that money since it was put on the wrong outcome
Z
14:21
Zack
the odds themselves are not on-chain. it is in the channels. The only way to bring that on-chain is with an oracle.
14:21
In reply to this message
the futarchy market already resolved saying we should increase the block reward. now we are increasing it.
S
14:21
Sy
the chances that anyone will bet against him are kinda slim tbh since most ppl are indeed too lazy to do that
Z
14:22
Zack
I was about to do it. 5 free veo is a lot of money.
S
14:22
Sy
In reply to this message
incorrect, you WANT it to increase because the futurachy resolved that way yet it doesnt have to unless someone "corrects" it but considering that the gov oracle already has more weight than the question itself i wouldnt "correct" it with my money
14:23
i mean the question was worth what? 0.5 veo? 1?
14:23
which clearly showed that nobody cared to even bother
Z
14:23
Zack
In reply to this message
My expectation is that if we fork amoveo over this, the community will follow the side where we resolved the governance oracle the way futarchy told us to. Because I think the community would prefer participating in the version of Amoveo that is governed by futarchy.
S
14:24
Sy
imho if we fork over this it just shows that the mechanisms itself are unable to work - either someone corrects it or it is as it is
Z
14:24
Zack
the mechanism includes a forking step. If the forking step can't happen, then why does it exist?
S
14:25
Sy
i mean this is ONE question, if veo will ever be really used we would have thousends of bets alive, you cant watch them all and fork on incorrect outcomes
Z
14:25
Zack
we are using nakamoto consensus to resolve our oracle. it saves us a lot of money.
14:25
In reply to this message
if we follow the rules strictly, then the nash equilibrium will be that we will almost never have to fork over this.
S
14:25
Sy
the gov oracle contradicting the futurachy doesnt seem that horrible for me tbh, it just shows that ppl care more about the actual action than the question
Z
14:26
Zack
So if I write the soft fork, will you update your mining pool, or not?
S
14:26
Sy
you wanted to match that bet anyway so...go ahead, problem solved
B
14:26
Ben
i will place another bet
14:26
but to be quite honest, i don't like the process at all
Z
14:27
Zack
if I know you will merge the soft fork, I am happy to bet a lot.
S
14:28
Sy
wont the soft fork cancle out all bets anyway and just close the oracle the way futurachy decided?
Z
14:29
Zack
no, the bets are still active. it just prevents the oracle from closing the wrong way.
14:29
otherwise there is an incentive to troll this way in the future
14:29
if you know you will get a refund
B
14:30
Ben
what would happen to the bets?
S
14:30
Sy
matched and paid
Z
14:30
Zack
the person who bet on the winning outcome would win the money
S
14:30
Sy
i still think this will happen alot more in the future unless you somehow link the gov to the question so you dont even have the option...
Z
14:31
Zack
but the outcome of the question doesn't matter for which direction the oracle should go
S
14:31
Sy
if something has been decided with futurachy there is no point in letting everyone bet differently in the gov
14:31
yet you want to fork over it...
14:31
you contradict yourself here...
Z
14:33
Zack
for example. lets say that decreasing the block reward is a good thing for the price. so people bet in the futarchy market that we will lower the reward, and the price will go up.
we decrease the reward, but for unrelated reasons, the price actually goes down. So the people who bet in the futarchy market, they should actually lose their bets. Because they had bet that the price would go up.
So the futarchy market's result, and the governance oracle's result are not logically connected. we can't calculate one from the other.
we decrease the reward, but for unrelated reasons, the price actually goes down. So the people who bet in the futarchy market, they should actually lose their bets. Because they had bet that the price would go up.
So the futarchy market's result, and the governance oracle's result are not logically connected. we can't calculate one from the other.
14:33
that is why we need to use an oracle to report the result of the futarchy market to the blockchain. that is the governance oracle.
S
14:34
Sy
thats not what this is about tho
14:34
we are talking about futurachy that decided to increase the reward and a gov oracle that got put in a different state
Z
14:34
Zack
In reply to this message
you are suggesting that I connect them somehow. I am trying to explain why this is not possible.
S
14:35
Sy
and according to you, thats not possible because since futurachy decided it should increase then people will match ever other bet and take the "free" money because they know they are betting on the side the majority wants - thus the mechanism would be self correcting
Z
14:35
Zack
it is ultimately enforced by nakamoto consensus.
14:35
that is why we don't need votecoin's like bitcoin hivemind
S
14:35
Sy
in the end its either self correcting because there is free money or it is not and we have to fallback to the censoring fork
Z
14:35
Zack
or augur's rep
14:36
it can only be self-correcting as long as people know that nakamoto consensus will enforce the correct outcome
14:36
the oracle betting layer is an escalation mechanism, to let the conflict grow to the point where it is affordable to use a soft fork to deal with it
S
14:37
Sy
hmm...
I
14:37
Instinct
Maybe the futarchy market should be open more than 2 days
S
14:38
Sy
then you should prepare a file that everyone can easily edit so not only you can fork when you see fit
Z
B
14:38
Ben
i will now open a futarchy market, can you point me to where it is documented?
Z
14:39
Zack
In reply to this message
The way I see it, the forks can only survive if they have developers willing to maintain them.
So you just pull from the github repository with the code you want to use.
So you just pull from the github repository with the code you want to use.
14:41
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/using_governance.md
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/using_oracle.md
http://139.59.144.76:8080/new_oracle.html
Feel free to post your oracle question here so we can talk about it and make sure it will work correctly before you pay to create the oracle.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/using_oracle.md
http://139.59.144.76:8080/new_oracle.html
Feel free to post your oracle question here so we can talk about it and make sure it will work correctly before you pay to create the oracle.
I
14:41
Instinct
So if I understand correctly if Ben or anyone else makes a counter bet to his 5 Veo then no fork is necessary?
Z
14:41
Zack
you can do this from the light node. you don't have to install the full node.
14:41
In reply to this message
Ben says he will keep betting, so the situation may escalate to the point where we do need a soft fork update.
S
14:42
Sy
i think he meant he will bet to undo his bet
B
14:42
Ben
already done
Z
14:42
Zack
oh, haha
I had misunderstood
I had misunderstood
B
14:43
Ben
i will create now a futarchy market and then we will use the same gov oracle :P
Z
14:46
if 2 futarchy markets disagree, it is logical to go with the more recent one. It had access to more information when it was run.
14:46
But, it creates some dangerous scenarios like have been happening in Augur
14:46
You know how people would make bets at a price <0.5, and then they get it to resolve as bad, so all the bets are paid back at 0.5
14:47
what you could do in Amoveo, every time a governance variable is being updated, and someone already locked a veo in it to resolve, you could make another futarchy market....
14:48
idk, maybe this isn't a vulnerability
B
14:48
Ben
can you point me to futarchy that was used before?
14:48
i will copy that one.
14:49
to have a precise and clear questioning.
Z
14:50
Zack
if the block reward is above 0.15 return 'bad', else return the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.3 on 28 July at noon GMT
if the block reward is below 0.15 return 'bad', else return the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.3 on 28 July at noon GMT
if the block reward is below 0.15 return 'bad', else return the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.3 on 28 July at noon GMT
14:50
so it is 2 scalar oracles
14:50
at the same price
14:51
they are conditional in a mutually exclusive way, so only one is valid, and the other one gets undone.
B
14:53
Ben
ok, i create 2 oracle got it.
Z
14:53
Zack
Blockchain futarchy is very new. Not only is the technology changing rapidly, but our culture has to change rapidly too.
We need to develop good rituals for how to use futarchy governance effectively.
We need to develop good rituals for how to use futarchy governance effectively.
B
14:55
Ben
to be quite honest an UI would help too.
14:55
that would lead to have a broader discussion due to more user.
Z
14:57
My goal is that the futarchy tool should be usable for any community that wants to make a decision, not just Amoveo making decisions about our governance variables.
14:58
I want us to use exactly the same tool as everyone else, so I can develop something that will be usable by a wider audience.
14:59
There are probably a lot of UI features that could improve oracle creation, even with that constraint.
B
15:00
Ben
260 blocks from now would be ok?
Z
15:01
how about 3 days this time? haha
B
15:01
Ben
why should now diffrent rules apply?
Z
15:02
Zack
I mean, you could make any market you want. it is permissionless.
You are trying to build a case for why we should lower the block reward, and the futarchy market is how you gather evidence.
I am just giving advice to help you get good evidence, so no one will question the results of your market.
You are trying to build a case for why we should lower the block reward, and the futarchy market is how you gather evidence.
I am just giving advice to help you get good evidence, so no one will question the results of your market.
B
15:03
Ben
the only one which is important is you.
15:03
all other are meaningless
Z
15:03
Zack
we need to build up good traditions, so I could disappear and it runs well when I am gone
EA
15:04
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
This seems important. We should have traditions like you say
B
15:04
Ben
you were ok with 2 days in the first place right?
15:06
lets do it that way, i create it with 300 Blocks, which is more in direction of 3 Days and you can run a futarchy on how long gov futarchy should be, how about that?
Z
15:06
Zack
whether you do 2 days or 3 really doesn't make much of a difference.
15:07
There is no hard rule for how long it should last
15:07
it is like asking "How big of a sample size do I need for my research results to be valid?"
15:07
Well, a bigger sample size gives stronger evidence.
15:08
the problem with making the futarchy market take too long is that veo is so volatile. if the price moves too much, then the futarchy market will fail to show any conclusive results
15:08
so maybe we should stick to 48 hour futarchy markets for now, until the price is more stable
B
15:09
Ben
ok, so 260 blocks
Z
15:11
Zack
This is some pretty intense futarchy happening right here. We are the first futarchs, exploring this new social landscape.
EA
15:11
Eric Arsenault
🙌🙌🙌
B
15:13
Ben
created both oracles
S
15:13
Sy
imho if its concerning a governance decision it should run as long as the gov oracle aka 1000 blocks (right now, can change)...as future reference ^^
Z
15:16
because both delays exist for similar reasons, so they should be similar lengths of time?
15:16
the governance delay, 1000 blocks, that is a governance variable. We can lower it to 260 blocks.
S
15:16
Sy
they exists for the reason that ppl have time to notice and react, like someone said earlier, 2 days is a bit short
Z
15:17
Zack
the difference is that the futarchy market is highly sensitive to changes in the price of veo, and the governance market is not.
15:19
I think Mr Flinstone had some ideas about how to make the futarchy market less sensitive to price fluctuations. The trick was measuring the price at 2 different times, and the amount of money transferred is based on the difference of the prices.
S
15:19
Sy
but it wants to change a value that will last for a while, its not a flimy decision we do every week to change the block reward
Z
15:20
Zack
if the price of veo moves more than like 20% during a futarchy market's lifetime, then the market will almost certainly resolve as invalid.
7 days is so long for how volatile veo is. it would make it very difficult to change governance variables.
7 days is so long for how volatile veo is. it would make it very difficult to change governance variables.
15:21
but if I add the trick from Mr Flinstone, we can probably get it to last for 7 days just fine
15:21
ill make that the default futarchy example.
15:30
if the block reward on July 28th at noon GMT is above 0.15 return 'bad', else { A = the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.3 on 21 July at noon GMT; B = the price of USD in Veo from 0 to 0.3 on 28 July at noon GMT; return (0.15 - A + B)}
if the block reward on July 28th at noon GMT is below 0.15 return 'bad', else { A = the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.3 on 21 July at noon GMT; B = the price of USD in Veo from 0 to 0.3 on 28 July at noon GMT; return (0.15 - A + B)}
S
15:31
Sy
the 7 day price of veo doesnt matter at all for any goverance value, if you change your decision based on changes that can happen within 7 days you shouldnt start the question to begin with...all governance changes should follow a long term goal
15:31
you dont raise and increase every week or even daily, its governance after all
Z
15:32
Zack
oh, what dates would you like me to put in the default example?
15:32
a month out?
S
15:32
Sy
how are those questions block reward related? its just "do you think the price will be lower at that date" question
Z
15:33
Zack
"if the block reward is above"
That part relates to the block reward
That part relates to the block reward
15:34
yes, I agree. making it go longer into the future is a big improvement
15:36
if the block reward on 21 August at noon GMT is above 0.15 return 'bad', else { A = the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.3 on 21 July at noon GMT; B = the price of USD in Veo from 0 to 0.3 on 21 August at noon GMT; return ((0.15 - A + B) * 1024 / 0.3)}
if the block reward on July 28th at noon GMT is below 0.15 return 'bad', else { A = the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.3 on 21 July at noon GMT; B = the price of USD in Veo from 0 to 0.3 on 21 August at noon GMT; return ((0.15 - A + B) * 1024 / 0.3)}
S
15:36
Sy
why exactly dont we just ask "do you want the block reward to increase?"
Z
15:36
Zack
oh, still a few mistakes
15:37
if the block reward on 21 July at noon GMT is above 0.15 return 'bad', else { A = the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.3 on 21 July at noon GMT; B = the price of USD in Veo from 0 to 0.3 on 21 August at noon GMT; return ((0.15 - A + B) * 1024 / 0.3)}
if the block reward on 21 July at noon GMT is below 0.15 return 'bad', else { A = the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.3 on 21 July at noon GMT; B = the price of USD in Veo from 0 to 0.3 on 21 August at noon GMT; return ((0.15 - A + B) * 1024 / 0.3)}
15:38
In reply to this message
what they want doesn't matter.
We want to use futarchy to measure how changing the block reward will impact the price of Veo.
We want to use futarchy to measure how changing the block reward will impact the price of Veo.
B
15:39
Ben
who proved that there is a direct correlation between those two?
Z
15:39
Zack
I guess I should make a governance version of the new_oracle form in the light node, so you can just choose a price, a governance variable, and 2 dates, and it generates everything else for you.
It could even suggest the dates automatically.
It could even suggest the dates automatically.
S
Z
I
B
15:50
Ben
ok so the oracles are now there
15:50
what is next step?
15:50
do i need to make bets on it?
Z
15:51
http://139.59.144.76:8080/otc_derivatives.html here is a page where you can generate the bets
S
15:51
Sy
http://139.59.144.76:8090/active_oracles.html
looking at those, asking the price of bitcoin without a year specified is rather pointless...
looking at those, asking the price of bitcoin without a year specified is rather pointless...
Z
15:51
Zack
it is safer to get the light node from here: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo
B
15:52
Ben
something went wrong i guess, there are 3 oracles
Z
15:52
Zack
yeah, I guess loloxian made one of them twice by accident
15:53
0.24 veo lost
15:53
oh, we made them cheaper, I guess it is like 0.18 veo now?
B
15:54
Ben
no that are the one i created
15:54
and i created only two
15:54
inD82CmYIn6zva7Ufxjr67X25zQYxt+bk6V3YRoIMeQ=
H382L+8HimeRWcGMhoiYMuYiqW1uwwhmgkGUr/tEZHA=
H382L+8HimeRWcGMhoiYMuYiqW1uwwhmgkGUr/tEZHA=
15:54
that are the one i made
Z
15:55
Zack
no reason to make a new oracle if it is identical to an existing one
15:55
I guess I should have realized this and warned you
15:55
sorry
15:56
at least you didn't make both
B
15:56
Ben
i'm confused, the one of loloxian are still running?
Z
15:56
Zack
those other 2 are loloxians yes
15:56
they expire on the 28th
15:57
hey, the 28th is tomorrow
15:57
so you made an oracle that expires tomorrow.
15:57
There was a failure of communication at some point.
B
15:57
Ben
looks like
15:58
i took the text you posted.
15:58
to have i accurate
Z
15:59
Zack
I don't know the details, I was just trying to give you an example of a recent oracle question
16:00
well, this means you can try out the even better version of oracles that we just documented
B
16:00
Ben
ok, how that?
Z
16:00
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/using_governance.md examples on this page
16:00
if the block reward on 21 July at noon GMT is above 0.15 return 'bad', else { A = the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.3 on 21 July at noon GMT; B = the price of USD in Veo from 0 to 0.3 on 21 August at noon GMT; return ((0.15 - A + B) * 1024 / 0.3)}
if the block reward on 21 July at noon GMT is below 0.15 return 'bad', else { A = the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.3 on 21 July at noon GMT; B = the price of USD in Veo from 0 to 0.3 on 21 August at noon GMT; return ((0.15 - A + B) * 1024 / 0.3)}
if the block reward on 21 July at noon GMT is below 0.15 return 'bad', else { A = the price of USD in VEO from 0 to 0.3 on 21 July at noon GMT; B = the price of USD in Veo from 0 to 0.3 on 21 August at noon GMT; return ((0.15 - A + B) * 1024 / 0.3)}
16:01
you need to replace all the dates and prices with dates and prices that make sense for your current situation.
B
16:01
Ben
lol, that is almost unusable
Z
16:02
Zack
so 0.15 -> about 90% the current price of veo
0.3 -> 180% the current prpice of veo
21 july -> a date in about 10 days
21 augurst -> a date about a month after that
0.3 -> 180% the current prpice of veo
21 july -> a date in about 10 days
21 augurst -> a date about a month after that
16:02
ill make a governance version of the new oracle page soon, and send you a link
B
16:02
Ben
i wait for that.
Z
16:02
Zack
it will plug in the details to this contract format for you
B
16:03
Ben
ok
Z
16:26
Zack
it was around 0.09 to make the scalar oracle, not as bad as I had thought
B
16:36
Ben
yeah, not that much
Z
17:36
check it out, I added a tool for making amoveo-specific futarchy type oracles
17:44
oh, i think there is a mistake. don't use it yet.
17:45
nevermind, false alarm. it is fine.
17:48
I used continuations passing style programming so that the account nonces would be consumed in the correct order.
Z
18:41
Zack
https://youtu.be/8hLzhqV0abo
Have you guys seen this video? Haha
It is like the exact opposite of my video.
Sounds and looks beautiful. Warm and welcoming, with many different people. But zero content.
Maybe if we collaborate we could make a really good video
Have you guys seen this video? Haha
It is like the exact opposite of my video.
Sounds and looks beautiful. Warm and welcoming, with many different people. But zero content.
Maybe if we collaborate we could make a really good video
B
18:44
Ben
if i want to lower the block reward how would a futarchy look like in that case? Block field should be auto populated wit "default" values i guess
Z
18:45
Zack
Yes
18:46
It would decrease by about 33%
18:51
you could say something like "the block reward is below 0.075"
18:51
or if you want it to stay the same, you could say "the block reward is below 0.11"
B
19:21
Ben
i try to prove with futarchy that over the span of x blocks the price was below a certain level due to the block reward of y right?
Z
19:22
Zack
no. you are betting on whether veo will increase or decrease in value during that period of time.
19:22
conditional on whether we increase the block reward or not
B
19:25
Ben
and vs. what price is it measured?
Z
19:26
Zack
I don't understand the question
19:26
it measures the price of veo at 2 different times
B
19:26
Ben
what is your reference price.
19:26
where does it take the price from
Z
19:26
Zack
you can choose the block heights for those times
19:26
it is an oracle. the oracle reporters look it up when they report the outcome
B
19:26
Ben
i know, again, what is the source of the price
Z
19:27
Zack
oh, maybe you want to specify on qtrade?
B
19:27
Ben
thats what i'm saying
19:27
without the source specifyed the whole futarchy is worhtless.
Z
19:28
Zack
I didn't add that feature to the automated tool, but you can still make scalar oracles manually if you want to do that
19:28
I think we will be able to figure out a price to report to the oracle
B
19:29
Ben
my point is, raising or lowering the block reward is kind of an important decision and to me the furarchy is not clear at all. with the pure oracle betting it was.
Z
19:29
Zack
you want to use the exchange that has more volume on that day anyway
B
19:29
Ben
how was the oracle reporting done on the last oracle for the block reward?
19:29
how can i see what the futarchy market resolved to?
Z
19:30
Zack
if the gamblers can agree on a price to settle their contract, then they can get the money out early and don't have to wait for the oracle.
19:30
If there are no contracts left connected to the oracle, then it doesn't matter how it resolves
19:31
In a successful futarchy market, none of the trades get matched.
B
19:31
Ben
you told me this morning that my 5 veo bet was against the result of the futarchy. i aks you to prove that.
Z
19:32
Zack
the futarchy market happened off-chain in channels.
It is the kind of thing that can be faked after-the-fact. so you have to look it up while it is happening.
It is the kind of thing that can be faked after-the-fact. so you have to look it up while it is happening.
B
19:33
Ben
so how can i know if the bet which is the gov oracle is set to is the true result if i cannot look it up.
Z
19:33
Zack
channels kind of give off-the-record privacy in a way
19:35
In reply to this message
yes, this is a serious weakness of our current system. Maybe if we timestamp the contract by hashing it into a block, then we could prove it somehow
B
19:35
Ben
we need it on chain, otherwise there is no evidence
Z
19:41
Zack
There are a lot of scalability and privacy benefits to having our markets off-chain. It seems like it is impossible to solve front-running if we do it on-chain, that is what Augur says.
It is annoying that if you want to participate in the futarchy system, you have to come online every few days.
But, if something happens that you don't like, it is easy to make a new futarchy market to possibly change it back.
It is annoying that if you want to participate in the futarchy system, you have to come online every few days.
But, if something happens that you don't like, it is easy to make a new futarchy market to possibly change it back.
19:42
And eventually we will get to the point where you can set up notifications to receive an email or text or whatever if certain futarchy markets get created
Deleted invited Deleted Account
21:09
Deleted Account
👋
B
21:41
Ben
sorry but that is to me a no go
21:42
for such important variables, there has to be a trackable process that is also evidence proof.
21:44
you say the last gov oracle resolved to 1 i say it resolved to 3. How can we determine who is right?
Z
21:45
Zack
if you ever in doubt, you can launch a new futarchy bet using the same futarchy oracle they already made, to verify the result.
B
21:45
Ben
which will end up in the same scenario
Z
21:46
Zack
with a larger portion of people participating in the consensus after each iteration
B
21:46
Ben
there is no proof for the outcome
21:46
there has to be one
21:47
the solution is quite easy, create a special version of futarchy oracle that report the outcome as meta information to a new block
21:47
then we have evidence that is history proof
Z
21:49
Zack
there is no cryptographic proof of the result of a football game, but the oracle still works for that. I don't see why we can't use the oracle for this.
B
21:50
Ben
the is a proof. the national leage reports the result per game day. you can consume that via API
21:50
like all betting portals are doing it.
Z
21:51
Zack
if any individual doubts the result, they can make a futarchy contract for themselves to verify
B
21:54
Ben
to me that is realy a red flag
21:55
you want citys use this with results that are not historc proof able? will _never_happen
Z
21:56
Zack
the nakamoto parts are all verifiable. you can look up historically every time a governance variable was updated.
B
21:56
Ben
but not why that happend and that is even more important
Z
22:06
Zack
you can't know why a bitcoin miner choose to mine a historic block. you just trust that the people mining with the default version of the consensus had the most hashpower.
22:07
the guarantees for our oracle have similar nature as the rest of nakamoto consensus
22:16
If you are someone who thinks that they will be negatively impacted by a governance update, then that means if a futarchy market exists, you are someone who would want to use that market to hedge your risks.
Since you are participating anyway to hedge your risk, then you must have enough data to later on know the result of that futarchy market.
Since you are participating anyway to hedge your risk, then you must have enough data to later on know the result of that futarchy market.
B
23:53
Ben
i respect your opinion but disagree.
23:54
but it's ok, let's move on and see where we end.
28 July 2019
Z
01:59
Zack
Making a good design is walking on a knifes edge. If we are too conservative in requiring lots of proofs to be available forever, then we could end up with a product that is more expensive than the competition and fail that way.
But if we take too many risks in trying to be the ultimate in affordability by pruning everything as early as we think we can get away with, then we could end up making some proofs unavailable that were actually important for the security of the system.
If we aren't using the optimal solution, then we can lose.
As much planning as we try to do, it is impossible to predict the best choice every time, so in this way, our success depends on our ability to adapt when we learn new information about what design is optimal.
I think it is good we keep as much off-chain as possible to start, because we can change that stuff by updating a smart contract. And because it minimizes the amount of consensus code. I estimate that each line of consensus code costs 10x more effort to write and maintain than normal software. Plus, it is adding complexity that makes it more difficult to re-write Amoveo in another language.
But if we take too many risks in trying to be the ultimate in affordability by pruning everything as early as we think we can get away with, then we could end up making some proofs unavailable that were actually important for the security of the system.
If we aren't using the optimal solution, then we can lose.
As much planning as we try to do, it is impossible to predict the best choice every time, so in this way, our success depends on our ability to adapt when we learn new information about what design is optimal.
I think it is good we keep as much off-chain as possible to start, because we can change that stuff by updating a smart contract. And because it minimizes the amount of consensus code. I estimate that each line of consensus code costs 10x more effort to write and maintain than normal software. Plus, it is adding complexity that makes it more difficult to re-write Amoveo in another language.
B
02:20
Ben
true words and i totaly agree, but on the Gov Oracle in my opinion it is not working out. at the time you want to enforce the new Gov Oracle Value you cannot even prove that it was the right choice. That is not acceptable to me. therefore it is a waste of time to run the Futarchy in the first place.
Z
02:48
Zack
Maybe we can have some centralized services that report the results, and we can use reputation to encourage them to show the correct result, to build a 3.2 level secure system to report the futarchy results.
If they try to cheat and get us to update the market the wrong way, it doesn't take long for us to realize who is making bad reports, and then they lose all the reputation that they had built up.
If they try to cheat and get us to update the market the wrong way, it doesn't take long for us to realize who is making bad reports, and then they lose all the reputation that they had built up.
02:49
this could potentially solve both our goals
* maintaining scalability and affordability
* having a trust-minimized way to look up the result of futarchy markets.
* maintaining scalability and affordability
* having a trust-minimized way to look up the result of futarchy markets.
Z
03:56
Zack
we are using cowboy 1.1.2, but they are on 2.6.3 now.
I guess we should update dependencies.
I guess we should update dependencies.
Z
04:32
Zack
we weren't even using a stable *.*.0 version of cowboy. we were using an intermediate level version.
04:38
oh, it looks like the new cowboy doesn't work with our version of erlang
04:38
currently installing erlang is pretty easy, because ubuntu offers the binary for this version. if we want the newer version, you would have to compile that during installation. it would make it a lot slower to install amoveo.
04:40
so I guess we shouldn't update this yet, until ubuntu updates it's repositories. maybe this means we need to use the newer version of ubuntu.
04:46
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/44685813/how-do-i-install-a-specific-version-of-erlang
Looks like we can get the binaries from erlang solutions, then it wouldn't matter which version of ubuntu we are using.
Looks like we can get the binaries from erlang solutions, then it wouldn't matter which version of ubuntu we are using.
04:48
https://www.erlang-solutions.com/resources/download.html
haha, erlang is on version 22 now.
We are using a dead version of erlang
haha, erlang is on version 22 now.
We are using a dead version of erlang
04:51
I want to upgrade the experimental branch to version 22, but that means I need both erlang 18 and erlang 22 on the same machine, if I want to run both branches of amoveo.
04:52
maybe erlang 22 will run both versions, and then it wont be an issue.
Z
06:57
Zack
this upgrade to cowboy will give us websockets, and the ability to steam data over the http connection.
This means we could set up the block syncing to stream the blocks, which means we wouldn't waste data if the connection gets cut off in the middle.
It probably enables a bunch of UI upgrades to the light node that I haven't thought of
This means we could set up the block syncing to stream the blocks, which means we wouldn't waste data if the connection gets cut off in the middle.
It probably enables a bunch of UI upgrades to the light node that I haven't thought of
07:00
streaming data is a lot more efficient on RAM, because we don't have to cache batches of data to process. We could probably reduce the minimum ram requirements very low, if we were streaming the blocks.
B
12:03
Ben
centralized services sounds good
S
14:59
Sy
it could also enable permanent sockets on the nodes so they push instead of pulling...
14:59
😎
14:59
ah na, the nodes push randomly anyway...
Z
15:03
Zack
I think there could be advantages to maintaining long term connections with peers, instead of a new http request for everything
Z
16:13
Zack
oh right. if you don't have external ip, you could still receive new headers by push instead of pull, if you maintain a web socket
Z
19:59
Zack
I reduced the dependencies requirements by like 500 mb, by choosing the erlang libraries we actually use instead of downloading everything.
Z
21:40
Zack
I nearly got Amoveo working with ubuntu 18, erlang 20, cowboy 2.6.0
It syncs ok.
but one of the single node tests is failing, and some of the multi-node tests are failing.
It syncs ok.
but one of the single node tests is failing, and some of the multi-node tests are failing.
S
21:45
Sy
erlang 20 is the newest one in 18.04?
Z
21:46
Zack
erlang 20 installs default with 18.04 from the repositories
21:47
we could have used ppa and wget to get the binary from erlang solutions for erlang 22 built for ubuntu 18.04
21:47
anything >18 is good enough to use the newest version of cowboy
21:49
erlang solutions only provides one big binary. ubuntu's repositories is letting us choose exactly which parts of erlang we need to run Amoveo.
So by doing it this way, you need to download like 500 mb less stuff to install Amoveo on a new machine. I think.
So by doing it this way, you need to download like 500 mb less stuff to install Amoveo on a new machine. I think.
21:49
so it seems like erlang 20 is going to be the best choice for us for now
S
22:00
Sy
and you can pull security updates more easily, i agree
29 July 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
beton meton invited beton meton
J
08:08
JOHNwick3's dog
I think a fun use case for prediction markets is to make a market for the success or failure of say.. bitcoin and the top 20 coins over a 10-20 year period. Then you make a website like coinmarketcap.com If you don't think bitcoin will succeed. you can bet against it. would this be possible? someone make it maybe?
08:09
If crypto is the future we will continue to go through market cycles of more crypto adoption and it would attract more people to amoveo
08:12
and then some type of tap/link to amoveo markets for more specific bets
Z
08:44
Zack
You want to lock your Veo into a 10 year contract?
That is a lot of confidence in this project
That is a lot of confidence in this project
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
11:57
Zack
I updated the experimental branch of Amoveo to use:
ubuntu 16 -> 18, erlang 18 -> 20, jiffy 0.7 -> 1.0.0, and cowboy 1.1.2 -> 2.6.0
It is able to sync with the network, and the tests are passing.
ubuntu 16 -> 18, erlang 18 -> 20, jiffy 0.7 -> 1.0.0, and cowboy 1.1.2 -> 2.6.0
It is able to sync with the network, and the tests are passing.
11:58
Now we are only ~1 year away from bleeding edge, instead of ~3 years.
11:58
2016 -> 2018
12:09
erlang hasn't changed much in 2 years.
It is great using such stable tools that never break underneath of us.
It is great using such stable tools that never break underneath of us.
Z
13:12
Zack
if you install with the new instructions, it seems to be able to run both branches of amoveo.
13:12
ubuntu 18 erlang 20 etc all work for master branch
S
15:06
Sy
link to the new instructions pls
Z
17:07
Tell me if you find bugs in the new docs
S
17:16
Sy
how do i check the running erlang version? :)
Z
17:16
Zack
I think it tells when you turn it on