Amoveo ♥🧿
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26 June 2018
S
22:12
Sy
thats just -36% of what we got now
22:13
and we need like /5 to get back to block target
22:13
which will only get china back in such numbers if the price goes back to 700+ too
22:13
if we get back to block target and stay at 300$ profitability is "only" times 5
22:14
we need 11 adjusts if the hashrate doesnt change to get back on block target per day
22:15
if prices goes up, miners increase, hashrate increase, less diff adjust needed to get back on track
А
22:15
Андрюхин
it's ok. we have enough time to prepare ) btw, FPGAs is coming
S
22:15
Sy
at some point along the way it will be worth your while again, at that point normal miners will come back, if it doesnt bubble as it did last time china will never fully come back
22:15
thats why the slow adjust is indeed good....but painful xD
22:16
i dont really worry about fpgas
22:16
programming an fpga to a new algo is some work, having enough to make an impact is another issue - im pretty sure there is much more gpu hashing power than fpgas out there
22:16
so once the fpgas switch the gpus will be here already, making the net stronger
22:29
17 TH on veopool...someone returned
22:29
ah lol no, the big just became bigger xD
22:30
MF
22:35
Mr Flintstone
cool
sd
22:51
steel dan
In reply to this message
these fresh commits in chalang git do not appear in your github Contribution activity of zack-bitcoin, which I check every day. Could you please switch some github parameter on please?
22:55
wow, https://github.com/zack-bitcoin?tab=repositories shows that there have been fresh updates in chalang
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
23:11
Zack
In reply to this message
It is because github mistakenly thinks our branch of chalang is a fork.
I emailed github support. But now that Microsoft runs the show, who knows what will happen.
I emailed github support. But now that Microsoft runs the show, who knows what will happen.
23:13
I am thinking of making a market for binary derivatives of augur rep. And I will set it up to expire 7 days after augur's launch.
That way, if you think there will be a problem during their launch, you could make a profit by shorting rep.
That way, if you think there will be a problem during their launch, you could make a profit by shorting rep.
MF
23:28
Mr Flintstone
100 more blocks until hf
23:28
back in the day that was 6 hours
27 June 2018
B
01:26
Ben
which was way above Target
01:40
Deleted Account
No offense. But is this coin dying? The block generation time is several hours now.
OK
01:41
O K
In reply to this message
Not dying, recovering from an attack — changes have been made since and the hardfork activates soon
L
01:41
Deleted Account
When mining with 1080ti become profitable?
OK
01:42
O K
Depends on your electricity costs, but it's profitable right now
01:42
Deleted Account
Soon I can mining again? The reward made me giving up since May.
OK
01:43
O K
You missed out on very profitable times if you gave up in May
01:43
The price had spiked for awhile
01:43
Deleted Account
For 800dollars each?
OK
01:44
O K
+/-
01:44
yes
01:44
Deleted Account
Oh I miss old days
L
01:45
Deleted Account
AE got troubles in launching mainnet
OK
01:45
O K
Oh hi Bo, I forgot you lost your old account
01:46
Deleted Account
Yes. I am Bo
01:46
😀😀😀
OK
01:46
O K
🙌
01:46
Deleted Account
Good to see you guys still here
A
01:47
Aries
hola Bo
01:47
Deleted Account
I am trying to buy some veo these days
01:47
how much is it now
OK
01:47
O K
300 +/- on the discord
01:48
Deleted Account
Ok
01:48
have to go to bed now. Good Night, bros.
OK
01:48
O K
Goodnight bo bro
Deleted invited Deleted Account
A
04:52
Aries
Anyone doing a countdown clock?
S
L
06:33
Larry
👊👍
Deleted invited Deleted Account
DY
17:04
Demi Yilmaz
Doğa invited Doğa
17:42
Deleted Account
Hi all , where I can read about coin specifications like block time , reward and .. ?
18:35
Deleted Account
Also I am trying to understand something , how the network knows that the oracle's or the oracel is not lieing?
S
18:46
Sy
because a lieing oracle is usually free money
18:47
a bet is tied to the oracle, someone will loose alot of money in the bet so he is trying to influence the oracle, put more money on his side, the network will notice it and just bet enough on the correct side, collecting his lie attemp along the way
18:47
the network = we ppl
18:47
its actually pretty hard for an oracle to lie
T
19:06
Topab
In reply to this message
How will the network notice that? What is the alarm system design to alert the network?
19:38
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Don't get it , whoever pays more money determine the outcome ?
S
19:48
In reply to this message
and humanity - imho we are unable to really do something united - the only reason for everyone to choose that an oracle is lying would be if everyone would be in on the bet on the same side with would make the bet worthless since nobody did bet on the other side - if the bets are bigger there is more incentive to influence the oracle but ppl can just spot the free money and pick the correct side
19:49
in the beginning, zack will be able to correct pretty much any oracle where the users choose to cheat but it should even out for users after a while
19:49
oracle correcting pools are a possibility i see in the future, let your veo work
Deleted invited Deleted Account
AK
S
19:59
but amoveo isnt where zacks vision wants it to be for a long time so...things will have to be supported till then
19:59
tbh like every coin in the beginning
19:59
except iota, its still shit xD
AK
20:00
A K
what are we lacking for proper decentralization, hashpower? adoption? software development?
20:00
is it quantifiable maybe? e.g. 1 exahash/s would bring us there, or 10k active bettors, or smth else
S
20:06
Deleted Account
How do you like our veo income now
20:07
Hello everyone,Hello everybody,Hello
20:40
Deleted Account
Hello everyone,Hello everybody,Hello
20:40
I am from China
20:46
So quiet today
MF
20:59
Mr Flintstone
the oracle betting is decentralized
20:59
everybody can see what the output type of an oracle is
20:59
and everyone can bet on it
21:00
i will personally be on the lookout for false oracle types because it is in my self interest
21:00
so n is at least 2
21:00
and I suspect other profit minded individuals or groups will as well
21:01
also, for any investment contract you enter into, you know what oracles determine your payout
21:01
so market participants are incentivized to pay attention to the oracles that directly impact them
G
21:13
Gonzalo
Hellooooo 😅
T
21:23
Topab
In reply to this message
I agree, but an alert system should be in place. Perhaps those who send an alert about a lie could be extra rewarded, like a referral kind of thing
S
21:37
Sy
maybe in the future
IP
21:43
I P
In reply to this message
Voice message
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
00:49, 115.0 KB
21:51
In reply to this message
The more people get involved in oracles the harder it would be for oracles to lie, true
28 June 2018
T
03:08
Topab
On the other hand, if an oracle is about a certain local bet where only few people has acces to the truth (e.g. the oracle question is to know if it rain or not in a small town), the lie could just not be able to undo because non locals would not know the fact
Z
03:33
Zack
In reply to this message
If it isn't public knowledge, then they will respond bad-question. Which is a third option besides true and false.
MF
03:51
Mr Flintstone
the amoveo oracle is not suitable for helping amoveo learn about the entire set of real world events
T
04:01
Topab
Makes sense
LB
OK
05:44
O K
😂
Deleted invited Deleted Account
IP
07:01
I P
In reply to this message
veo right now is around 20-30 blocks per day which is more than enough. all the important activity can be done offchain if you wish so. and the less block we get from mining, the less the inflation which is good for a new coin because worst enemy of new coins is inflation
07:03
the only people who talk about dying are miners who don't want veo but want super profit. the fun part is veo profit is the same as eth, so really no point to complain, many millions of gpus mine eth and don;t complain..
G
18:10
Gonzalo
👍👍
Jack Wolfskin invited Jack Wolfskin
T
23:17
Topab
23:18
Didn't know forking was also part of Augur dispute resolution
29 June 2018
MF
00:30
Mr Flintstone
yeah
JS
01:18
Jon Snow
Forking is the most important and difficult part of it
Max f invited Max f
JM
04:11
J M
Can someone explain to me how the answer to an oracle's question gets recorded?
S
04:13
Sy
blockchain?
JM
04:15
J M
how?
04:15
based on the results of a market?
T
05:20
Topab
In reply to this message
I thought this was a Amoveo only innovation. Besides the scaling issue in Ethereum, what are the key innovations Amoveo has over Augur?
IP
T
06:43
Topab
Thanks @kitty123 I checked that before. It seems those parts Amoveo is having as must have for prediction markets are indeed important. I would not call those innovations though I admit putting them together is a great idea. I assume same functionalities could have been achieved with other set of "tools", but perhaps not yet built (e.g, plasma,...). I'm not tech savvy and I may be wrong. However, I always thought that the most critical part nobody has yet figured out was distributed oracle and I think Amoveo has the most convincing approach to it and a critical innovation was the blockchain forking mechanism for attacks.
IP
06:44
And have original codebase not based on an old coin or old code
06:45
This is something that is exceptionally hard to find in crypto
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
09:22
Topab
I agree @kitty123 I am very excited about Amoveo. I thought the forking mechanism for "lies attack" was very cool and created and used only in Amoveo, so a very cool innovation. For what I have seen so far the only system it could work for such attacks. Besides Augur, which other oracles are using this that you are aware of?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
13:55
Sy
network hashrate 2.44 mh...are you sure this is the right channel? xD
13:55
MINIMUM PAYOUT
1 ARQ
1 ARQ
13:55
delete
IP
S
15:43
Sy
ARQ != VEO - simple as that
Z
22:54
Zack
If Augur does well at launch, it will bring attention to prediction markets, and be good for Amoveo.
If they do poorly, then their users will look for other prediction market projects, and it will be good for Amoveo
The worst case is if they only do so-so. Enough to keep their current users without attracting more attention.
If they do poorly, then their users will look for other prediction market projects, and it will be good for Amoveo
The worst case is if they only do so-so. Enough to keep their current users without attracting more attention.
23:08
Deleted Account
Zack your market on Augur price is in here,
http://139.59.144.76:8080/explorer.html
but this node lists up three markets including above one. Strange...
http://168.62.52.179:8080/explorer.html
http://139.59.144.76:8080/explorer.html
but this node lists up three markets including above one. Strange...
http://168.62.52.179:8080/explorer.html
MF
23:33
Mr Flintstone
there can be an unlimited number of markets referencing an oracle
23:34
all a market is is an investment contract that pays out based on an oracle outcome
23:34
You can see this on amoveobook.com
23:48
Deleted Account
Thanks for clarification, I still sometimes got confused about market/oracle.
So
But clicking those markets in this node displays same market (all about Augur oracle).
Is this bug on explorer or maybe the node version is outdated?
Anyway, http://amoveobook.com/ is great.
So
168.62.52.179 has three markets based on three different oracles.But clicking those markets in this node displays same market (all about Augur oracle).
Is this bug on explorer or maybe the node version is outdated?
Anyway, http://amoveobook.com/ is great.
MF
23:49
Mr Flintstone
yeah weird that it looks like all three markets are the augur one
23:49
I think it’s good to introduce people to amoveo with amoveobook.com
23:49
very clean and easy to use
23:49
only issue is acquiring veo
23:53
Deleted Account
Yes, OTC trade is hard for most people.
30 June 2018
MF
00:56
Mr Flintstone
Maybe we can set up a small faucet
00:56
I’m sure this would get complex quickly
00:56
because ppl could just spam it
01:01
Deleted Account
yeah, donation-based faucet (with CAPTCHA or something to prevent abuse) might help adoption.
MF
01:02
Mr Flintstone
happy to donate some veo to the cause
01:02
if we could get a faucet on amoveobook.com or some other amoveo website
01:06
Deleted Account
Great, amoveo getting popularity will increase the value of veo, so other big holders also might want to donate :)
MF
02:34
someone sends eth or btc and we give them some veo?
02:34
Almost like a tiny exchange
02:35
this way we can prevent people from exhausting the faucet
OK
02:35
O K
Some faucets use a system of social media verification
02:36
It doubles as advertising
02:39
Deleted Account
I meant "donation-based" just as ordinary faucet. The recevier gets veo for free. Exchange with other currencies is too much complicated.
02:40
Social media verification is good idea.
MF
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
g
20:11
goons
On Zack’s pool, what is the ‘unallocated shares’ figure
20:12
I see a value, don’t understand how it’s created/where it comes from
Z
20:24
Zack
it doesn't say "unallocated shares" anywhere on the mining pool.
g
20:43
goons
Hm
Z
g
20:44
goons
Sorry...’outstanding’
20:51
Deleted Account
So when you mine on zacks pool you generate shares and whenever the pool finds veo, x% of the shares are paid out
20:51
I believe the outstanding shares represents shares owned by all miners on the pool that has not been paid yet
g
20:54
goons
So they get distributed as the pool finds blocks, got it. Thanks. Where can I find a difficulty chart
20:55
Wow veopool has almost all the hash?
IP
20:55
I P
hey guys. we need more hash at amoveopool2, join please😊❤👍 i think some people had autoswitshing to veopool because of ap2 recent small upgrade
g
20:56
goons
Need more hash anywhere except veopool
IP
20:57
I P
well in about 100 blocks mining profit will increase by 16% which should drive more people in anyways
g
21:03
goons
Is it ~80% hash on veopool or am I reading this wrong ?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
21:10
Deleted Account
where buy coin?
Z
S
21:35
Sy
its about 90% on veopool, better set it to 7 days+ for better numbers
21:35
Z
22:07
Zack
26916 contains a multi-tx.
Moon invited Moon
M
22:10
Moon
Hi !
OK
22:35
O K
Doing an emergency dependency update on the node for avp2 — sorry guys had no notice on this, should only take a minute.
22:37
And done.
Z
22:39
Zack
Good job on the quick update OK.
Next time I will try and give a better warning if dependencies need to be updated along with a hard update of the full node.
Next time I will try and give a better warning if dependencies need to be updated along with a hard update of the full node.
OK
22:39
O K
These things happen, thanks for letting me know
S
23:03
gotta update the explorer
MF
1 July 2018
S
00:27
Sy
yep its working, did one aswell
00:28
gotta check how i can parse them
00:33
the fee is unchanged tho so, no point in using them tbh
Z
00:36
Zack
the governance fee is the cost of processing, which is the same with multi-tx as before.
So the governance fee should be unchanged.
multi-tx is shorter, so it is less expensive for the miner to include txs that are bundled into a multi-tx. So the miners fee can be smaller for multi-tx.
So the governance fee should be unchanged.
multi-tx is shorter, so it is less expensive for the miner to include txs that are bundled into a multi-tx. So the miners fee can be smaller for multi-tx.
00:36
multi-tx makes cold storage much simpler, since you don't have to broadcast the txs in order.
00:38
@Simon3456 each tx in the multi tx is either a spend tx or a create account tx. They are formatted just like normal spend txs or create account txs, except 3 of the values are set to 0.
From, fee, and nonce.
From, fee, and nonce.
00:44
Gonzalo Looks like your dependencies need to be upgraded.
api:off().Thanks for the support
halt().
rm -rf _build/prod/lib/encrypter
rm -rf _build/default/lib/encrypter
make prod-restart
00:45
IP
Z
00:46
Zack
Your node fell out of sync, probably because you are using an old version of the dependency.
IP
00:46
I P
yeah, probably, thanks. i will fix it
Z
00:46
Zack
make prod-attach
api:off().
halt().
rm -rf _build/prod/lib/encrypter
rm -rf _build/default/lib/encrypter
make prod-restart
00:51
about 3 or 4 more days until the next hard update.
This one is for changing retargetting, so now we retarget every 1000 blocks, all block-times are being included in the calculation, instead of just half, and we make a 17% limit on how much the difficulty can decrease by in 1000 blocks.
This one is for changing retargetting, so now we retarget every 1000 blocks, all block-times are being included in the calculation, instead of just half, and we make a 17% limit on how much the difficulty can decrease by in 1000 blocks.
IP
00:59
I P
wow ethereum is made unusable for 6 hours because of some exchange token voting network flood😊😊😊 40bln dollars market cap blockchain👍👍
C
00:59
CK
Anyone using nicehash for amoveo?
IP
JL
01:57
Josh L
Is amoveo sold anywhere?
IP
JL
01:59
Josh L
Gotcha
01:59
Gonna mine some
02:00
Best pools?
S
IP
S
02:04
Sy
veopool is too big tho 😅
JL
02:45
Josh L
Thx
10:54
Deleted Account
Maybe some stupid question again
10:54
synthetic asset linked to the value of gold - how much creation of synthetic asset linked for example to Apple stock would cost in transaction/channel/oracle fees?
IP
10:55
Deleted Account
I've become more bullish after somebody created MetaMask style chrome extension wallet
IP
10:57
I P
In reply to this message
actually, once regular bets are decoupled from governance oracles it would be massive
10:57
Deleted Account
For ethereum marketing and design is better than core - it's cool and jazzy but if you are trying to actually build large-scale Dapp on top of it you are out of luck = for that reason alone Augur won't work. Top Dapps have no more than few thousand daily users
IP
10:58
I P
In reply to this message
the only real dapp on ethereum is idex and it gets rekt hard and rather frequent because eth network can get rekt easy like today
11:02
Deleted Account
I'm having a dream about creating a dashboard for "financial microservices" - universal frontend for Dapps and multiple blockchains
MF
11:03
Deleted Account
MF
11:03
Mr Flintstone
the number of oracles you need is equivalent to the number of bits you need to represent the number
11:04
I.e 1350 in binary is 10101000110
11:04
which means you would need 11 oracles for four digits of base 10 precision up to 1350
11:05
so the costs can be approximated as 11* oracle initial liquidity
11:05
channel fees need to be included but this is not a function of oracle count
11:06
reason being we can attach one smart contract to eleven oracles where each n oracle’s question is like “ the nth digit of the binary representation of the price of gold is 1”
IP
11:07
I P
holy crap you are really smart😊👍
MF
11:07
Mr Flintstone
and the set of true/false oracle outputs lets us construct the price of gold within the smart contract
11:07
so we can then swap that price change between us
11:08
this should be very cheap if question oracle initial liquidity can be arbitrarily small
Deleted invited Deleted Account
DY
13:03
Demi Yilmaz
Wow.. shit.. i like you mr flintstone 😘
This just blew my mind
This just blew my mind
Z
19:32
Zack
Mr Flintstone is right.
DY
2 July 2018
08:38
Deleted Account
where to buy amoveo?
OK
Dani_ohh invited Dani_ohh
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
20:10
Zack
About 16 hours until the difficulty goes down 17%.
S
20:20
Sy
we have 24 blocks to go and had 29 in the last 24h...optimistic call 😁
Azima(🌳,🌳)(☀️,☀️) joined group by link from Group
ALTinside invited ALTinside
3 July 2018
Nichanan Kesonpat invited Nichanan Kesonpat
Z
07:52
Zack
about 7.5 hours left.
N
12:02
NM$L
how's it going?
S
13:56
Sy
close call tbh, 2 to go after 16h
14:51
Deleted Account
I thought difficulty changed every 2k blocks?
[
15:11
Deleted Account
ah right, thanks
15:13
seems it dropped around 14.5% nice
S
15:20
Sy
not really, why didnt it drop max value?
15:20
its not like we are 5 times slower than target xD
OK
21:23
O K
XD
Youb Loukil invited Youb Loukil
Marco Mendoza invited Marco Mendoza
Z
23:12
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/blob/master/src/lisp/quotes_examples.scm
Examples to get started with lisp macros for Amoveo.
Examples to get started with lisp macros for Amoveo.
4 July 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
CR
04:15
I was reading the documentation and I'm curious... The one thing I'm not clear on is how do you have Smart Contracts on the state-channels without needing a turing complete on-chain contract?
04:16
For example I understand the theory of the Trubit project and Plasma Cash but I'm not sure how Amoveo enables trustless execution of smart contracts off-chain
Z
04:18
In reply to this message
in the case of a disagreement, the turing complete contract could get executed on-chain.
here is an overview of the transaction types in Amoveo: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/transaction_types.md
here is an overview of the transaction types in Amoveo: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/transaction_types.md
CR
04:20
Carlos Rene
Those 14 transactions types enable turing completeness?
Z
04:21
Zack
only channel_solo_close and channel_slash using turing complete smart contracts.
CR
04:23
Carlos Rene
"For example, if we play a card game enforced by smart contract, the blockchain wouldn't know that you played cards. Still, the blockchain can enforce that the winner of the card game gets their money."
04:24
How is that done?
04:24
Wouldn't I have to execute those transactions to validate them?
Z
04:25
Zack
We both have a copy of the contract.
If I try and cheat to break the rules, then you publish your copy to the blockchain, and then the blockchain can enforce the rules.
Publishing to the blockchain costs money. We both save money by being honest and not cheating.
If we both don't cheat, then the contract never gets published to the blockchain.
If I try and cheat to break the rules, then you publish your copy to the blockchain, and then the blockchain can enforce the rules.
Publishing to the blockchain costs money. We both save money by being honest and not cheating.
If we both don't cheat, then the contract never gets published to the blockchain.
04:26
For example, we would have a large contract listing all the cards that are in the deck, and commitments for every face down card we have played, etc.
The result of this complex contract is simply that you won the game, and I lost. so the money should mostly go to you.
It is in my interest to sign a much simpler contract that just gives the money to you, without all the pointless details of how we had played the card game.
This simpler contract will cost us less to publish to the blockchain, so we both save money.
The result of this complex contract is simply that you won the game, and I lost. so the money should mostly go to you.
It is in my interest to sign a much simpler contract that just gives the money to you, without all the pointless details of how we had played the card game.
This simpler contract will cost us less to publish to the blockchain, so we both save money.
CR
04:28
Carlos Rene
OK, but assuming a worst case scenario and an irrational actor... What if you don't give me the signed transaction saying that I won?
04:29
How do I make sure to get the money we bet if you refuse to sign that last part and I can't push the details to the main chain because it is not turing complete?
Z
04:30
Zack
A well written smart contract doesn't have that problem.
For example, if we are playing a card game, and I refuse to make a move for a long time, then eventually I run out of time and it is the same as forfeiting the game.
Well written smart contracts have timers built in. so if you don't participate, then eventually you lose everything you put into the contract.
For example, if we are playing a card game, and I refuse to make a move for a long time, then eventually I run out of time and it is the same as forfeiting the game.
Well written smart contracts have timers built in. so if you don't participate, then eventually you lose everything you put into the contract.
CR
04:31
Carlos Rene
Good example, what if we disagree? I say I won and you say you won?
04:31
How does the blockchain know who's right without the details?
Z
04:32
Zack
Then either of us can use a channel-solo-close tx type to publish the contract to the blockchain, and the blockchain will enforce the outcome.
The transactions are processed by full nodes when they verify blocks.
The transactions are processed by full nodes when they verify blocks.
04:33
It is the same as payment channels.
CR
04:35
Carlos Rene
Ok, so Amoveo does support on-chain turing complete smart contracts to be able to verify the transactions and correctly determine who is the true winner of the bet
Z
04:38
Zack
Amoveo doesn't store any information about contracts between blocks.
04:39
The contract is processed along with the block it is in, and only the outcome of the contract, which is our new balances, are recorded in consensus state
04:40
The vast majority of contracts never get written to any block.
sd
04:42
steel dan
the hash of the contract must be posted on the chain though, right?
IP
Z
sd
04:44
steel dan
how do we secure that the truly agreed upon contract is run onchain in case of disagreement?
Z
04:44
Zack
amoveo turing complete channels work with the same security mechanism as payment channels.
With a payment channel you don't have to store the hash of your balance on-chain.
With a payment channel you don't have to store the hash of your balance on-chain.
sd
04:45
steel dan
ooh right multi-sig, sorry
04:45
like LN
Z
04:45
Zack
yes, the lightning network also uses channels.
CR
05:56
Carlos Rene
Thanks for the good info Zack, let me confirm my understanding... Since only the contract outcome is recorded on the blockchain then the miner is kinda like a random arbiter for a dispute right?
05:57
The block producer verifies the rightful contract outcome and posts that on Amoveo and the other nodes on the network take his block submission as the true end state
05:58
Since the smart contract doesn't live in the main chain then the other nodes take the block producer's word for it or they can run and validate the contract themselves
05:59
The smart contract would have to be on the mempool then before the dispute outcome is posted on the main chain
05:59
Did I understand correctly?
Z
08:09
Zack
the miner is not an arbiter.
The miner's only choice is whether or not to include your tx.
If they ignore your tx and forego the fee, probably whoever mines the next block will include your tx.
The miner's only choice is whether or not to include your tx.
If they ignore your tx and forego the fee, probably whoever mines the next block will include your tx.
08:10
Smart contracts are programmable, you can program the delay to be as long as you want. If it takes 20 blocks to get it included, then make the delay at least 20 blocks.
08:11
If one of the channel participants starts closing the channel at the wrong final state, then there is a delay during which you can provide more information to the blockchain so that the channel will close at the correct final state.
This is how all channels work.
This is how all channels work.
IP
23:21
I P
Zack hey! http://159.89.106.253:8087/main.html does not work seems=( please check it, looks like went offline
23:21
it is the escrow on your node
Z
23:23
Zack
thank you for telling me
23:25
it should be fixed now
IP
23:26
I P
yep, all works, thank you!
5 July 2018
K
00:04
Kan
is there a list of changes for the last hardfork?
Harry invited Harry
Z
00:11
Zack
In reply to this message
all changes are recorded on github.
When there is a hard update I made a note about it and list the changes in english.
When there is a hard update I made a note about it and list the changes in english.
00:18
It seems like the hashpower has gone down since the difficulty went down.
So I guess the demand curve for GPU POW is nearly a step function.
It seems like this effect will get worse as time goes on.
Eventually I think it will be impossible to launch a POW blockchain unless you release ASICS before the genesis block.
So I guess the demand curve for GPU POW is nearly a step function.
It seems like this effect will get worse as time goes on.
Eventually I think it will be impossible to launch a POW blockchain unless you release ASICS before the genesis block.
А
00:20
Андрюхин
FPGAs are on the way
K
00:20
Kan
In reply to this message
Could you publish a changelog (release notes)? Github Releases are really good for that
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/releases
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/releases
00:34
Deleted Account
where to buy the amoveo coins now?
MF
00:57
Mr Flintstone
in discord
00:57
trading channel
IP
01:03
There is 0 reason for hashrate to go down after 17% diff decrease
01:04
Deleted Account
what sthe current implied market cap, and what will the market cap be after the next few years with the additional mining inflation?
[
01:04
[Riki]
Maybe miners are masochists and go away when hashrate drops 😁
IP
MF
01:05
Mr Flintstone
not including dev reward currently like 50k veo per year
01:05
at 10 min block times and 1 veo per block
01:05
both are subject to change tho
01:07
Deleted Account
where is the discord link?
OK
01:07
O K
On the github
01:07
Deleted Account
oops just found
01:10
crap looks like before amove was $100 each, now only $20 each lol
01:13
oh wait misread
01:13
now looks its more
MF
01:13
Mr Flintstone
veo started at 30 or so and went up to like 800 and now is around 300
01:14
Deleted Account
and what is the mining rate look like
01:15
Im happy to buy some amoveo at $300 each if anyone want to sell
OK
01:16
You'll have good success there
01:17
Deleted Account
block rward is still 1 per block?
OK
01:17
O K
Still 1 plus the dev reward
01:18
Deleted Account
implied market cap of 8.1 million then?
OK
01:18
O K
Exactly
01:18
Well, maybe not exactly, I didn't check the math but I know that's very close
MF
01:30
if you look at veopool.pw’s estimation it’s still around 15 th/s
01:30
maybe we are just unlucky
01:30
Deleted Account
is this still gpu minable?
01:30
so confused what sgoing on
MF
01:30
Mr Flintstone
yeah
IP
01:30
I P
I think same people mine veo as always😊😊
MF
01:31
Mr Flintstone
GitHub readme is a good source of information
IP
01:32
Also wanted to say that Zacks escrow page works fine, was able to make a trade very smooth
Deleted joined group by link from Group
S
02:27
Sy
hashrate didnt drop, block find is just really really avg right now, a bit below actually
07:34
Deleted Account
What's the cost for binary question in Amoveo?
07:34
With yes or no question
07:34
On given date. I want to create some prediction market regarding mainnet launch of some project
IP
07:36
I P
if i'm not mistaken it should be 0.3 veo to start it, well you also need people who would bet with you, otherwise there is no point really
07:39
Deleted Account
IMHO it's expensive and unfeasible :(
07:39
with current price in $200-$300 range it's like $100 :O
IP
07:55
I P
In reply to this message
it is expensive right now yes. well, if i'm not mistaken,there is work being done to separate regular bets from governance oracle price. right now both need 0.3 veo to open
OK
08:06
O K
I think you're right IP
JS
08:36
Jon Snow
I think the 26900 hard fork already split the fee variables between governance and regular game. But Zack can confirm
Z
08:40
Zack
we have not yet split the oracle fees.
JS
08:45
Jon Snow
Ah, sorry, I misremembered
CR
14:25
Carlos Rene
In reply to this message
Sure but if I'm asking the chain to validate that my state is the right one in a dispute the block producer has to execute the turing complete smart contract to validate this. However, he only posts the end state to the chain for consensus as you pointed out before. How do the other nodes know for sure that the block producer posted the right state if they don't do validate the turing complete smart contract themselves before accepting the end state?
14:25
They either have to trust the block producer or run the states of the smart contract and make sure that my end state is the correct out of the two parties in dispute.
14:26
But the contract we're using doesn't live in the main chain so how do they know which code to run and validate?
Timmi invited Timmi
Z
18:55
Zack
Every full node processes all of the transactions.
18:55
You don't ignore any tx or trust the block producer's result for anything.
6 July 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
7 July 2018
sd
02:25
steel dan
Zack which lisp books or resources would you recommend so we can start studying and working on your chalang code? Which lisp idiom is the closest to your Chalang?
Z
02:25
Zack
I had an idea on how I can write better macros for making functions in amoveo lisp.
After this upgrade, I expect that typical code written in Amoveo lisp will compile to more efficient bytecode in comparison to typical code written in Amoveo forth.
The compiler can look for optimizations much faster than you can.
instead of storing function inputs in variables or the r-stack, I am planning to keep them on the main stack the whole time.
The function will first do stack manipulation to get the inputs in the right order, then it will do all it's computation. Every time it needs some input, it will already be at the top of the stack.
After this upgrade, I expect that typical code written in Amoveo lisp will compile to more efficient bytecode in comparison to typical code written in Amoveo forth.
The compiler can look for optimizations much faster than you can.
instead of storing function inputs in variables or the r-stack, I am planning to keep them on the main stack the whole time.
The function will first do stack manipulation to get the inputs in the right order, then it will do all it's computation. Every time it needs some input, it will already be at the top of the stack.
02:26
In reply to this message
https://7chan.org/pr/src/The_Little_Schemer_4th_2.pdf
This book is good.
This book is good.
sd
02:26
steel dan
Thank you
02:41
Deleted Account
Veoscan is down. Server suspended again due to "abusive traffic" which is weird...
I'll move to another VPS within few hours. Sorry for inconvenience.
I'll move to another VPS within few hours. Sorry for inconvenience.
A
03:23
Deleted Account
Veoscan is back.
Z
03:24
Zack
great
OK
03:24
O K
Nice work
cryptdough5 invited cryptdough5
BB
04:15
Brian Brian
In reply to this message
You recommended this on twitter to me. I’m about half way through so far. Hard to read but really drives points home if you do the work
Z
04:16
Zack
Great. I like that book.
04:16
You can know nothing about programming, and still understand it
Deleted invited Deleted Account
06:09
Deleted Account
06:10
Anyone have an updated Discord invite link?
S
DY
S
15:04
Sy
Link is working
A
Deleted invited Deleted Account
8 July 2018
Z
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
A
10:59
Aries
Zack ban
sd
11:52
steel dan
In reply to this message
is chalang idiom more similar to scheme language or common lisp?
Z
11:53
Zack
Chalang is a virtual machine. there are multiple compilers targetting it.
Z
20:27
Zack
It is optimized for state channels.
9 July 2018
Z
01:48
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang-github-workaround
I made a new repository for chalang in order to get rid of the message saying that chalang is forked from WePesa.
I made a new repository for chalang in order to get rid of the message saying that chalang is forked from WePesa.
MS
04:13
Matthew Slipper
anyone else running into issues getting block header?
04:14
calling sync:get_headers
04:14
yields the following error:
04:14
** exception error: undefined function pow:check_pow/3
in function headers:absorb/2 (/data/amoveo/_build/prod/lib/amoveo_core/src/consensus/chain/headers.erl, line 96)
in call from sync:get_headers2/2 (/data/amoveo/_build/prod/lib/amoveo_core/src/consensus/sync.erl, line 175)
in function headers:absorb/2 (/data/amoveo/_build/prod/lib/amoveo_core/src/consensus/chain/headers.erl, line 96)
in call from sync:get_headers2/2 (/data/amoveo/_build/prod/lib/amoveo_core/src/consensus/sync.erl, line 175)
04:22
i pulled from master, rebuilt, and the issue went away.
IP
05:24
I P
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😳, 49.4 KB
Z
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
07:48
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang-github-workaround/blob/master/src/lisp/dice.scm
I wrote a smart contract for gambling your veo at 50-50 odds.
I wrote a smart contract for gambling your veo at 50-50 odds.
09:42
Deleted Account
If we want to create a new smart contract, should we modify full node source code like this?
1. Write main contract code (by forth-like or lisp-like language)
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/priv/market.fs
2. Define function that compiles above contract and returns spk (which holds contract)
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/8ac80068b879fe8178bdee5912a71f883fe1c79d/apps/amoveo_core/src/channels/market.erl#L11
3. Modify channel_feeder
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/channels/channel_feeder.erl
4. Implement front-end things
5. Deploy modified full node on your server
The amoveo blockchain is agnostic of smart contract content, so custom-full nodes that implement different contracts can coexist, right?
1. Write main contract code (by forth-like or lisp-like language)
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/priv/market.fs
2. Define function that compiles above contract and returns spk (which holds contract)
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/8ac80068b879fe8178bdee5912a71f883fe1c79d/apps/amoveo_core/src/channels/market.erl#L11
3. Modify channel_feeder
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/channels/channel_feeder.erl
4. Implement front-end things
5. Deploy modified full node on your server
The amoveo blockchain is agnostic of smart contract content, so custom-full nodes that implement different contracts can coexist, right?
MF
Z
10:31
Zack
In reply to this message
you would probably want to put the new contract in the same folder with the others.
You need to:
1) write the smart contract. the forth compile and lisp compile both work well.
2) write the api for the smart contract. so the full node can use it in it's channels.
3) update the light node to know about this new contract. The light node does not have a compiler, it only has a VM. so you need to hard-code the bytecode of the contract into javascript.
4) front end things
I am here to help you if you have some goal, you don't have to do it all yourself.
The most difficult step for me is (2). It takes about much longer than the other steps combined.
You need to:
1) write the smart contract. the forth compile and lisp compile both work well.
2) write the api for the smart contract. so the full node can use it in it's channels.
3) update the light node to know about this new contract. The light node does not have a compiler, it only has a VM. so you need to hard-code the bytecode of the contract into javascript.
4) front end things
I am here to help you if you have some goal, you don't have to do it all yourself.
The most difficult step for me is (2). It takes about much longer than the other steps combined.
10:58
Deleted Account
yeah api part looks pretty complicated. Currently I do not have specific plan, just trying to understand amoveo codebase. Maybe give a try some time.
I first realized that the light node has VM (chalang.js) and all other things. It's amazing just one person coded all of this... Thanks for answering.
I first realized that the light node has VM (chalang.js) and all other things. It's amazing just one person coded all of this... Thanks for answering.
Z
11:00
Zack
Isacc Cook found a bug in Amoveo that lets you print veo from nothing.
It is easy for me to fix this bug, the fix will be pushed to github momentarily.
I am very impressed that they were able to find this bug, and I want to reward them for their effort in the hopes that this will bring more testers and developers to us.
How many VEO do you guys think makes sense for a reward?
Is anyone besides me interested in donating to him?
@potat_o @Simon3456
It is easy for me to fix this bug, the fix will be pushed to github momentarily.
I am very impressed that they were able to find this bug, and I want to reward them for their effort in the hopes that this will bring more testers and developers to us.
How many VEO do you guys think makes sense for a reward?
Is anyone besides me interested in donating to him?
@potat_o @Simon3456
11:06
11:21
Deleted Account
omg it's great to find out such fatal bug early. Hope it's not exploited yet.
BB
11:26
Brian Brian
Yikes
11:26
Did he print himself some?
Z
11:34
Zack
this bug only lets you print hundreds of millions of veo at a time.
I am syncing the fixed node now.
If anyone has printed out free veo, then that block will not sync.
I am syncing the fixed node now.
If anyone has printed out free veo, then that block will not sync.
11:34
once I finish syncing I will push the fix to github
IP
Z
11:35
Zack
sort of. I will give more details once sy updates his mining pool.
11:40
Deleted Account
great work Zack and Isaac Cook.
S
S
13:53
Sy
sending me a message usually speeds up the update process xD
13:54
but no, it hasnt happened, we would have spotted it
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
14:43
Sy
I just updated and resynced my nodes without a problem, everything is fine 👍
IP
16:34
I P
In reply to this message
what he meant is that if that bug gets exploited you can print only unreasanoble hight amount to everyone will spot it the same moment basically
B
17:02
Branc
what is the price range for veo now?
G
InvestIQ invited InvestIQ
IP
20:19
I P
In reply to this message
depends on the amoint of coins you want to buy. small amount i guess 250-300, big amounts 350-450. please discuss trading on discord, we don't trade on telegram https://discord.gg/MvWZjXu
OK
20:26
O K
Okay, we're up to date
B
Z
22:17
Zack
BO83KbaE2R8DBCMOlgVx1E/HWi6TX5RGI10TAjrS4dI5uD4XWRS4iO55C8W2ojdd3DcJ2ZF37mikrQvYj8d/HbM=
Here is Isaac Cook's Pubkey.
He saved Amoveo.
Here is Isaac Cook's Pubkey.
He saved Amoveo.
22:20
I am trying to figure out how many Veo I should send him. I want to give enough to encourage people to responsibly disclose bugs like this in the future.
DY
[
22:23
[Riki]
and some beer too
Z
23:26
Zack
I was thinking I would give half of the reward to Isaac Cook now, and ask him to write a small blog post for the second half.
The blog post will act as evidence so that in the future people will be more likely to responsibly disclose bugs.
it will contain:
1) some evidence that Isaac Cook is a real person with a web presence from years ago.
2) an explanation of the bug.
3) how much he was paid in veo, and what it was worth in dollars at the time.
4) How was the experience of submitting a bug? Was it much effort dealing with the community?
And then I will stick this blog post in the docs.
Is there anything else I should ask him to include in this document?
The blog post will act as evidence so that in the future people will be more likely to responsibly disclose bugs.
it will contain:
1) some evidence that Isaac Cook is a real person with a web presence from years ago.
2) an explanation of the bug.
3) how much he was paid in veo, and what it was worth in dollars at the time.
4) How was the experience of submitting a bug? Was it much effort dealing with the community?
And then I will stick this blog post in the docs.
Is there anything else I should ask him to include in this document?
OK
23:28
O K
How did he contact you, through social media?
Z
23:28
Zack
by email.
S
23:29
Sy
the more interesting question is, why was the spend 3000 blocks ago and he only contacted you now?
23:29
Deleted Account
Half of the reward? 1400veo?
23:30
That's not wise
23:30
bug happens
Z
23:30
Zack
https://qtrade.io/
He says he works for these guys. I previously discussed with Isaac about integrating Amoveo into his exchange.
He says he works for these guys. I previously discussed with Isaac about integrating Amoveo into his exchange.
S
23:30
Sy
i think the reward was set to 5
23:31
Deleted Account
Ok
S
23:31
Sy
id make that bounty big enough, google is paying alot for major bugs so reporting them is at least close to selling them
Z
23:31
Zack
In reply to this message
I think the negative spend came from a mining pool. Notice that it does not active the exploit or print veo. no balance goes negative in that case.
J
S
23:32
Sy
5 veo is about 1500$ right now, seems kinda cheap for a bug that could make you as much as you wanted
J
23:32
Jackie
They are always adding coins without the coin devs permission
OK
23:32
O K
Yes, the economics of bug bounties is complicated
23:32
Deleted Account
But hardfork will fix it
Z
S
23:36
Sy
ha, interesting question 😅
23:37
you cant touch your dev wallet right? or 10% could easily bankrupt me
OK
23:37
O K
So far seems like he's only willing to put up like 5 Veo
Z
23:37
Zack
I cannot touch the dev wallet, correct
S
23:38
Sy
i cant touch my mining wallet since its a company wallet and i have to argument every movement if they ever care to check
23:38
but i can set a part of the fee aside to another target 😝
23:39
but not "whatever i contribute" declare your number
Z
23:40
Zack
I was thinking of sending 20 veo
OK
23:40
O K
In reply to this message
That's a pretty good idea, depending where it ends up I might follow suit
M
23:45
Mike
If only this bug would depress the price a little more...
S
Z
23:47
Zack
It is my fault that a bug like this existed, so it makes sense I should pay a majority of the reward.
It is in all of our interest that bugs like this are responsibly disclosed.
This is a great opportunity if anyone was interested in doing some in-group virtue signaling.
It is in all of our interest that bugs like this are responsibly disclosed.
This is a great opportunity if anyone was interested in doing some in-group virtue signaling.
10 July 2018
John Tromp invited John Tromp
JT
02:22
John Tromp
where is block reward and block interval documented? don't see them n whitepaper
IP
02:23
also there is a dev reward which is locked for a year or so.
02:24
In reply to this message
block reward and dev reward are governance variables which can be changed through voting in governance oracle
JT
02:25
John Tromp
have any consensus quantities been changed through voting yet?
IP
02:25
I P
we already did the voting, but it was about other governance variable- minimum tx fee- it was lowered a couple of times successfully through governance oracle
JT
02:27
John Tromp
so 1 veo reward and 10 min block interval are the initial parameters. where can i find those documented?
IP
02:28
I P
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/governance.md is about what parameters are governance
02:28
initial can be found in the code, i don't remeber the exact place
JT
02:29
John Tromp
thank for info, IP.
02:31
btw, average block interval so far is 6.8 minutes
02:31
but we can blame the slow retargetting for that
IP
02:31
I P
In reply to this message
yeah, we had an influx in hashpower, people were mining blocks each 2 minutes or so. right now we have around 1-2 blocks per hour
OK
JT
02:32
John Tromp
yes
OK
02:32
O K
Neat
S
02:33
Sebsebzen
Wow, John Tromp
02:34
Can I ask what you think about Amoveo?
02:34
Anything you like, dislike in particular?
JT
02:35
John Tromp
i dislike complexity
G
OK
JT
02:35
John Tromp
so not a big fan of scripts/contracts
G
JT
02:36
John Tromp
what is block reward halving parameter?
S
02:36
Sebsebzen
I see. Btw, hows Cuckoo cycle PoW getting along. Will we see it in the wild soon?
JT
02:37
John Tromp
aeternity is supposed to lauch in august
02:37
not that i'm holding my breath...
02:37
it's already in the testnet wild...
IP
02:37
I P
am i the only one who does not know who John Tromp is?
S
JT
02:38
John Tromp
cuckoo cycle is doing fine. seems more ASIC friendly than i'd hoped
02:39
current equihash ASICs have enough SRAM to do cuckoo30
02:41
i like privacy
02:42
so i would dislike amoveo's lack thereof
S
02:47
Sebsebzen
Merkle Tree PoW also coming out soon
02:47
MTP
02:47
1.2
02:48
I guess Amoveo is for different usecases
02:49
although I wonder if it is possible to create zero knowledge proofs in Amoveo scripting language, which are also not too costly
MF
03:28
block reward is determined in-protocol by the oracle mechanism only
03:30
oh sy already answered lol
Z
07:23
Zack
BO83KbaE2R8DBCMOlgVx1E/HWi6TX5RGI10TAjrS4dI5uD4XWRS4iO55C8W2ojdd3DcJ2ZF37mikrQvYj8d/HbM=
http://159.65.120.84:8080/explorer.html
I sent Isaac Cook 30 VEO as a reward for responsibly disclosing the vulnerability, and saving Amoveo.
http://159.65.120.84:8080/explorer.html
I sent Isaac Cook 30 VEO as a reward for responsibly disclosing the vulnerability, and saving Amoveo.
07:31
Deleted Account
I sent 0.4 VEO. Good Job Isaac.
Z
07:33
Deleted Account
i just cliked send on amoveo3 wallet
Z
07:36
Deleted Account
yeah amoveo3 awllet has the amazing pending transaction feature xD
07:37
seems to not be working now hhmm
IP
07:41
i know light node wallets
07:41
Deleted Account
chrome browser extension
07:42
i used it to bet against brazil at amoveobook.com
IP
07:42
I P
would be cool if we make a bug bounty fund which gets its money from donations, pool donations and such. maybe part of dev reward in future once it gets unlocked
07:42
ah, i see
07:42
Deleted Account
yeah
07:43
dev reward for good contribution
07:43
maybe only 50% to zack :P
07:44
ok i used zacks wallet to send 0.5 to isaac
Z
08:53
Deleted Account
yay ur wallet worked
09:49
Deleted Account
I sent 0.5 veo donation to Isaac too.
10:05
Deleted Account
It could incurr very big damage to amoveo if it's been found in more later stages.
So I think we owe him a lot :)
So I think we owe him a lot :)
OK
S
S
Z
18:34
Zack
Great. Thank you sy
g
21:06
gh0stOo
Hey Guys, what ist the veo Price Right now?
DY
g
21:09
gh0stOo
How Can i Join discord?
S
11 July 2018
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Z
02:02
Zack
I found a bug in Amoveo.
Instead of being paid to the mining pool, tx fees are being deleted.
This isn't a big change, but it will be a hard update.
Instead of being paid to the mining pool, tx fees are being deleted.
This isn't a big change, but it will be a hard update.
OK
02:06
O K
Please let us know at what block in the future the update will take place 🙂
Z
02:13
Zack
ok, once the update is programmed we will know how soon we can do it
S
02:14
@potat_o is saying that for month
Z
02:14
Zack
I didn't notice him saying. I wish I noticed sooner.
IP
Z
02:32
Zack
tx fee is about 0.00001 veo.
There has been about 100 000 txs, so I guess we destroyed about 10 veo.
There has been about 100 000 txs, so I guess we destroyed about 10 veo.
S
02:52
Sy
45k txs
OK
03:53
O K
❗️ Hey everybody, check out https://amoveopool.com/ -- we've been working hard to bring you a better mining pool. If you currently mine on amoveopool2 ( 2️⃣ ), please point your miners to http://work.amoveopool.com:8880/ ❗️
Features include:
🔹 True PPLNS Reward Type
🔹 Improved Worker Statistics
🔹 Improved Share Reporting
🔹 Improved Hashrate Estimates
🔹 Improved Latency for Asia and the Americas
🔹 Stratum Support (Coming Soon)
💰 Additionally, we will be rewarding the top 10 block finders from the first 100 blocks we find their proportionate share of a FIVE 5️⃣ VEO REWARD! 💰
⚒️ In the coming days, ~all~ outstanding balances on amoveopool2 will be paid out, and the amoveopool2.com domain and work will be redirected to https://amoveopool.com/ ... So if you're out of town and can't fix your miner, don't worry, the work will redirect and your balance will be paid. ⚒️
Features include:
🔹 True PPLNS Reward Type
🔹 Improved Worker Statistics
🔹 Improved Share Reporting
🔹 Improved Hashrate Estimates
🔹 Improved Latency for Asia and the Americas
🔹 Stratum Support (Coming Soon)
💰 Additionally, we will be rewarding the top 10 block finders from the first 100 blocks we find their proportionate share of a FIVE 5️⃣ VEO REWARD! 💰
⚒️ In the coming days, ~all~ outstanding balances on amoveopool2 will be paid out, and the amoveopool2.com domain and work will be redirected to https://amoveopool.com/ ... So if you're out of town and can't fix your miner, don't worry, the work will redirect and your balance will be paid. ⚒️
IP
04:06
I P
nice announcement! best pool and service ever. low fees👍 come join us at amoveopool. Let's get mining more or less decentralized, at least let's get veopool below 50%👍
OK
04:44
O K
Great 😄 thanks guys! UI is a work in progress, so feedback is very welcome
Deleted invited Deleted Account
IP
04:56
I P
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
👲, 42.9 KB
Z
05:38
Zack
tallakt discovered a way to make veo out of nothing. it has already been fixed.
I am wondering what a reasonable reward would be.
I am wondering what a reasonable reward would be.
LB
05:39
Luke B
@zack if he was malicious how much would he have made do you think?
S
05:40
Sy
if you keep giving away 30 each time matching that with 10% will be pretty expensive 😎
OK
05:40
O K
This is a different person and different bug?
Z
05:40
Zack
different person, the bug is similar.
05:41
The problem this time was that a mining pool could allow a tx with a negative fee.
And since the fees aren't going to the block creator, this is the same as making veo from nothing.
And since the fees aren't going to the block creator, this is the same as making veo from nothing.
S
05:42
Sy
what about running all external numbers through a check function and sanitize them?
05:42
security 101, everything thats not from you is malicous
Z
05:48
Zack
In this case it would have been tough to catch that way.
The tx pool was blocking all negative fee txs. You had to modify the source code to be able to build the block.
The problem is that once the block is built, all the other nodes were accepting it.
The tx pool was blocking all negative fee txs. You had to modify the source code to be able to build the block.
The problem is that once the block is built, all the other nodes were accepting it.
11:09
Deleted Account
I should have checked this earlier.
At height 27257,
Sum of total account balance in Veoscan DB:
34265.2924443
Market cap written in block:
34166.07982588
Difference:
99.2126184200024
So about 99.2 veo must have been printed out of nothing.
(EDIT: this analysis is not correct, see below)
At height 27257,
Sum of total account balance in Veoscan DB:
34265.2924443
Market cap written in block:
34166.07982588
Difference:
99.2126184200024
So about 99.2 veo must have been printed out of nothing.
(EDIT: this analysis is not correct, see below)
11:15
Veoscan does not track balance change between blocks, so it's unclear when these exploits happened.
S
11:23
Sebsebzen
Running these automatic scripts to monitor is a good idea
11:26
Deleted Account
I agree, now I'm recording balances when new block is found.
11:31
Better to notice now than later... Thanks tallakt.
13:30
Deleted Account
Zack It looks like total_balance - marketcap difference is decreasing when tx (excluding coinbase) happens. Is this due to the fix?
height,total_balance,marketcap,diff,txs
27259,3426769400662,3416848144820,9921255842,1
27260,3426889047179,3416967801337,9921245842,11
27261,3427009310266,3417088064424,9921245842,1
27262,3427128896076,3417207660284,9921235792,12
27263,3427248727564,3417327498772,9921228792,8
27264,3427368990651,3417447761859,9921228792,1
height,total_balance,marketcap,diff,txs
27259,3426769400662,3416848144820,9921255842,1
27260,3426889047179,3416967801337,9921245842,11
27261,3427009310266,3417088064424,9921245842,1
27262,3427128896076,3417207660284,9921235792,12
27263,3427248727564,3417327498772,9921228792,8
27264,3427368990651,3417447761859,9921228792,1
14:02
Deleted Account
We should probably run anything constituring a block through quickcheck to see if any nastyness could slip through
14:02
So: generate random tx and make a block, then see if the amoveo server will accept it
S
15:41
Sy
catweed account_delete transfers balance aswell with no amount for you to parse, thats why the difference is 99 and not 49.7
15:41
i still dislike that "feature" the block should record it as a normal transaction and not just some node internal balance shifting
15:42
account_delete has no value on the delete side and no value on the receive side
15:42
which brings me back to "why would you want to recalculate the balance, the node knows it" Zack 😝
15:42
coinbase has no value either
15:43
and its not 1.0
16:42
Deleted Account
@Simon3456 Hmm, where does the 49.7 come from?
When there is a
Coinbase tx is processed in the same way.
So, total balance in Veoscan takes into account these.
When there is a
delete_acc tx in a block, Veoscan checks both acc_from and acc_to balance from node and update their balances in the DB.Coinbase tx is processed in the same way.
So, total balance in Veoscan takes into account these.
16:43
Of course it's possible it's bug on my code😅
S
17:26
Sy
so you created a workaround...i still think it should be written into the block
17:26
17:31
Deleted Account
Sounds like it would be a good idea for the amoveo node to print the total balance to the logs for each new block received
17:31
That way one could spot inconsistencies easily
17:42
Deleted Account
Got it, it's number of txs excluding coinbase and delete_acc.
17:43
@tallakt Good idea
S
17:48
Sy
without coinbase, i dont record those as txs
17:48
they are in the blocks only
17:48
they dont pay fee anyway ^^
OK
18:26
Deleted Account
@potat_o I do not calculate block reward explicitly. When coinbase tx is found, ask node miner's address and update.
18:27
So block reward is included in the updated balance.
OK
18:28
O K
Where is your database getting the other figure for balances to sum?
18:29
Just trying to follow the logic, not doubting you
18:45
Deleted Account
I look into every address that appears in the block, then ask their latest balances to the node.
Each account's balance is updated and stored in the db. This happens everytime new block is found.
Once in the db it's easy to sum up balances of all accounts.
Each account's balance is updated and stored in the db. This happens everytime new block is found.
Once in the db it's easy to sum up balances of all accounts.
18:45
The developer reward does not appear in the block, so I update the address every block as well.
OK
18:47
O K
Interesting. I wonder if there could be something wrong with the "market cap written on a block" calculation
S
18:48
Sy
the problem there is that you have to trust the coin that everything is 100% correct, which we know wasnt the case and in doing so removes an important control structure imho
OK
18:50
O K
Well the database sum is a good check, and knowing the block reward as a (excluding governance action) constant, looking at each block and sum will be a good way to know if things are in line
18:52
Deleted Account
I thought the account table might contain duplicates, but now I checked it and it's OK.
(though I forgot to put unique constraint on pubkey column)
(though I forgot to put unique constraint on pubkey column)
S
19:00
Sy
i started to build something like that aswell
19:03
would still like it more to just sum up and get to the same amount :)
19:09
Deleted Account
good to double-check, great
S
19:30
Sy
i will just do the same tho, ask the node for balance after every block for coinbase, txs and dev acc xD
Z
21:22
Zack
In reply to this message
I accidentally gave myself 100 veo at the genesis block. It is there for testing, and I forgot to turn it off.
21:25
In reply to this message
I think the market cap on the block isn't taking into account that the tx fees are being burned.
They aren't supposed to be burned, they are supposed to go to the block creator.
They aren't supposed to be burned, they are supposed to go to the block creator.
21:30
BHyD/TALLAKlhP7uqbGf+sSKMT8I264HAcyCYOxorR6SdqZ8691jtY6jVokGA2F46Op5OL3EsXkBD2hpYvlyxeI=
This is tallakt's address. He found a bug, he responsibly disclosed it, and we fixed it.
This is tallakt's address. He found a bug, he responsibly disclosed it, and we fixed it.
OK
21:31
O K
Which bug?
S
21:41
Sy
negative fees this time
21:41
i think...
OK
21:41
O K
Oh okay, the context made it seem like it was about the burn
IP
21:44
I P
so first one was negative spend, this one negative fees? can we check other negative stuff?😃😂
S
21:44
Sy
thats what i said, just run all numbers through a sanitize function
21:49
Deleted Account
Zack I understand now.
The genesis 100 veo that went to master_pubkey account was not included in the marketcap of block 1.
So total balance is 100 veo larger than marketcap.
http://veoscan.io/block/aOw9zspfVlI2xbdUh%252Fb5oGRBdRVYX7NZng9Gs9Wx6nk%253D
The genesis 100 veo that went to master_pubkey account was not included in the marketcap of block 1.
So total balance is 100 veo larger than marketcap.
http://veoscan.io/block/aOw9zspfVlI2xbdUh%252Fb5oGRBdRVYX7NZng9Gs9Wx6nk%253D
21:50
because block n + 1 marketcap is calculated from block n
22:03
So, with that 100 veo taken into account, sum of all account balances - marketcap is -0.78790258 veo at height 27267. Negative amount is caused by tx fee burn.
IP
22:11
I P
good news that veo have passed balance audit😃
S
22:28
Sy
doesnt exactly fit vs txfees i think but close enough
Z
23:57
Zack
I wonder where the last 0.3 is from.
Maybe they don't have the exact decimal for one of the values. block reward, or any governance fee size, or developer reward.
Maybe they don't have the exact decimal for one of the values. block reward, or any governance fee size, or developer reward.
23:58
or maybe they raise or lower the block reward at the wrong height. there was a short period of time when the block reward was higher
12 July 2018
00:13
Deleted Account
4 blocks in 11 minutes. is this by chance?
OK
00:13
O K
Shortly after a 5 hour delay
00:13
Probably...
00:17
Deleted Account
yep, on average it's normal.
Z
00:43
Zack
The odds of 1 block in 11 minutes is about 1/6
so the odds of 4 is about 1/1300
So this event should only happen once every 1300 blocks.
The odds of 5 hours with no blocks is about 1/32.
This should happen once every 32 blocks.
The odds of them happening one after the other is 2*odds1*odds2 = 1/20800
It should only happen every 21 000 blocks or so.
so the odds of 4 is about 1/1300
So this event should only happen once every 1300 blocks.
The odds of 5 hours with no blocks is about 1/32.
This should happen once every 32 blocks.
The odds of them happening one after the other is 2*odds1*odds2 = 1/20800
It should only happen every 21 000 blocks or so.
IP
00:45
I P
these are the oddss😂😂👍
Z
00:46
Zack
it was 4 blocks in 19 minutes, not 11 minutes.
And there was 1 block in between.
So the odds are more like 1/650. it should happen every 650 blocks or so.
And there was 1 block in between.
So the odds are more like 1/650. it should happen every 650 blocks or so.
++ invited ++
Z
05:02
Zack
I sent 10 veo to tallakt for responsibly disclosing information that lead to finding a critical vulnerability.
BHyD/TALLAKlhP7uqbGf+sSKMT8I264HAcyCYOxorR6SdqZ8691jtY6jVokGA2F46Op5OL3EsXkBD2hpYvlyxeI=tion
BHyD/TALLAKlhP7uqbGf+sSKMT8I264HAcyCYOxorR6SdqZ8691jtY6jVokGA2F46Op5OL3EsXkBD2hpYvlyxeI=tion
05:13
Deleted Account
Thx
Eli T invited Eli T
08:21
Deleted Account
Interesting stuff - AFAIK Augur requires to download whole chain or use centralized infura while Amoveo doesn't require such things (it's more decentralized)
08:21
I'm reasoning correctly?
IP
08:35
I P
In reply to this message
if so, augur is unusable because full eth chain is over 1tb nd growing fast. hard to sync it.
Z
08:53
It looks like they are using metamask for something. Metamask looks like an in-browser light node, similar to our browser light node.
09:00
Joey says you can use Augur with a light client
IP
Z
10:10
Zack
our light clients download headers and merkel proofs from full nodes too. I think this is the definition of a light node.
IP
10:28
I P
In reply to this message
true, but hosting amoveo full node is easy. try hosting eth full node
13:50
Deleted Account
Its not fair to compare ETH with Amoveo blockchain size. Anyways, supporters will say that storing this data is no problem for «business users»
13:51
You can download the ETH chain easily using eg bittorrent and sync from there
13:53
Its only like 50 bluray movies
13:55
That being said, anyone would agree that any measure to make sharing the blockchain easier is a good thing
14:48
Deleted Account
@zack what does SPK mean?
M
18:52
Minieep21
Anyone wanna bet on Trump getting re-elected?
Z
21:43
Zack
In reply to this message
I was trying to borrow words from bitcoin.
script_sig and script_pubkey
they are the 2 parts of a bitcoin transaction. the script_pubkey is like a lock, and the script_sig is like the key.
Amoveo smart contracts are split into 2 parts similarly.
script_sig and script_pubkey
they are the 2 parts of a bitcoin transaction. the script_pubkey is like a lock, and the script_sig is like the key.
Amoveo smart contracts are split into 2 parts similarly.
21:46
In reply to this message
I think fraud proofs + sharding is the most likely solution that we will settle on.
http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/fraud-proofs/
Sharding is easy in Amoveo because the contracts don't have on-chain state, and because each block includes all the merkel proofs needed to verify that block.
http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/fraud-proofs/
Sharding is easy in Amoveo because the contracts don't have on-chain state, and because each block includes all the merkel proofs needed to verify that block.
13 July 2018
MF
LB
02:21
Luke B
In reply to this message
Suggest it on AmoveoBook.com (scroll to bottom of markets page)
Z
03:43
Zack
In reply to this message
I am not certain.
I only understand some pieces, not everything.
It does look far easier for us than bitcoin. Because of how our database is merkelized. And because we have he turing complete state channels to do the challenge-response parts of fraud proofs.
I only understand some pieces, not everything.
It does look far easier for us than bitcoin. Because of how our database is merkelized. And because we have he turing complete state channels to do the challenge-response parts of fraud proofs.
Buzz Aldrin invited Buzz Aldrin
Deleted invited Deleted Account
14:44
Deleted Account
If i am understanding this: a light client would have headers that prove POW. Then open a channel with one or more miners/full nodes, and request the confirmation of a particular tx for a fee. The confirmation based on the merkle tree of that block, being very small (in terms of byte count)
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
19:12
Zack
Right
14 July 2018
MF
00:13
Mr Flintstone
wow 30 gwei On eth right now
00:13
augur is very expensive to use
00:14
not an augur expert but it seems like full life cycle of betting might cost 30+ dollars right now
00:14
which is way too much
Z
00:58
Zack
In reply to this message
instead of confirming tx, you would confirm account or channel or oracle state.
We don't keep the txs in consensus state.
We don't keep the txs in consensus state.
IP
02:34
Deleted Account
Watching veoscan db balance and block-written marketcap here.
http://veoscan.io/static/total_balance.txt
Strangely, diff = (total_balance - marketcap) increased at block 27330 again.
What I also don't understand is that when spend/create_acc tx happens, diff decreases slightly.
If tx burn bug is fixed diff should not change.
http://veoscan.io/static/total_balance.txt
Strangely, diff = (total_balance - marketcap) increased at block 27330 again.
What I also don't understand is that when spend/create_acc tx happens, diff decreases slightly.
If tx burn bug is fixed diff should not change.
OK
03:42
O K
What amount?
03:45
Deleted Account
about 0.227 veo
OK
03:50
O K
...
04:34
Deleted Account
block_27279_27280
04:34
I checked the simplest case of height 27280, where only one spend tx (0.1 veo) is included.
Sender/Receiver's balances are correct between blocks.
So it's either miner's reward or coinbase calculation is wrong.
Sender/Receiver's balances are correct between blocks.
So it's either miner's reward or coinbase calculation is wrong.
S
04:36
Sy
i was thinking about actually recording movements
04:36
Deleted Account
Why miner's reward is not coinbase (1.0 veo) + txfee (0.00060707 veo) ?
S
04:36
Sy
like when you update an address because you see it in a block, write a transaction of the before after balance
04:37
the 60707 is burned afaik, tx fee reward is just 1000
04:37
the coinbase is 1.002xxx or something like that, always
04:37
since it went up and down once
OK
04:38
O K
As far as I can tell the thousand is also burned
04:39
Deleted Account
Hmm
04:45
Now I'm recording all before/after balances to logfile.
But block 27330 has 53 txs...hard to look
But block 27330 has 53 txs...hard to look
S
04:52
Sy
yeah you can basicly record before, after, amount in block, actual amount with after-before
04:53
if the amounts ever dont match, doom
04:59
Deleted Account
I checked BC80oG's balance between 27279 and 27278 (which was only coinbase)
It's 1.00227592 veo, the same.
So txfee reward was not given at block 27280
It's 1.00227592 veo, the same.
So txfee reward was not given at block 27280
S
05:03
Sy
👍
Z
05:53
Zack
there is a bug so that the miner fee is being burned instead of being paid to the miner.
I just did an update to prevent certain kinds of spam against mining pools.
It is technically a hard update, but I don't think anyone will make a tx to trigger it for a long time. so there isn't a rush to update.
@Simon3456 @potat_o
I just did an update to prevent certain kinds of spam against mining pools.
It is technically a hard update, but I don't think anyone will make a tx to trigger it for a long time. so there isn't a rush to update.
@Simon3456 @potat_o
07:15
Deleted Account
thanks Zack, I somehow thought that tx burn bug was already fixed.
As to block 27330 glitch it might be Veoscan's update error. I'll look into it.
As to block 27330 glitch it might be Veoscan's update error. I'll look into it.
B A invited B A
15 July 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
16 July 2018
VV
05:37
Vladimir Vorkachev
seems blockchain completely stuck for more than 5 hours atm
05:37
it doesnt seems to be a good sign for everyone
05:38
if my opinon matters- we need to make a hard update manually setting difficulty to initial level, letting it to settle once again
IP
VV
05:45
Vladimir Vorkachev
indeed
05:45
after 5 hours
Z
05:45
Zack
we averaged 1 block per hour today.
This rate of block production is good.
This rate of block production is good.
IP
05:46
I P
we are 434 blocks in 14 days which means 31 block per day which is more than enough
VV
05:46
Vladimir Vorkachev
I'm not a hater but this speed isnt good actually.
IP
05:46
I P
no need for hard update
VV
05:46
Vladimir Vorkachev
Technically you are right
IP
VV
05:47
Vladimir Vorkachev
But from customer side its disaster
05:47
while off-chain functionality ist adopted to send and recieve money it sounds non practical
05:48
I wound push anyone but I trully believe that current NPS of project is extremely low and tx speed is one of the reasons
IP
05:48
I P
amoveo is not about sending money
05:48
it was never designed to be a money sending machine
VV
05:50
Vladimir Vorkachev
betting machine has to be fast tbh
05:50
cause real life is fast
05:51
and the timeframe between bet and the fact can be shorter then and hour
05:51
and the bet itself may need to be organized and be finished in a smaller timeframe
Z
05:52
Zack
you can make bets very quickly with amoveo.
Smart contracts can be updated as quickly as sending signed messages back and forth to the server.
Smart contracts can be updated as quickly as sending signed messages back and forth to the server.
VV
05:53
If I understood everething rights
IP
05:53
I P
In reply to this message
i think people don't know how to do it hence complaining about block times. a video guide would be cool
05:54
so your complaint is that due to current slowdown in block times you had to wait to create a betting market?
VV
05:54
Vladimir Vorkachev
lets imagine counter-strike game where betting system is used to predict who will win. Each game will need a separate smart-contract. While game last only 3-10min we will not ba able to organize a betting system
05:55
may be exaple is not perfect, while I dont play myself)
IP
05:55
I P
you know game will happen in advance, create market in advance and gather bets
05:55
soccer game lasts 90 min does not mean you need to wait for it to start to open bets
VV
05:56
Vladimir Vorkachev
its not practical at all
05:57
and the main question is what partcular limitations do we have to generate blocks each 1min for ex
IP
05:58
i don't see people complaining
VV
05:59
Vladimir Vorkachev
In reply to this message
Are we trying to put existing approaches on new platform or trying to build and absolutely new standard of betting?
05:59
if furst they I will pass with my offers
05:59
but I would like to find out what limits us to make blockchain faster
Z
06:00
Zack
I want to disassemble the hierarchies, end the corruption, and reveal who is lying to us.
The current block speed is fine for achieving these goals.
The current block speed is fine for achieving these goals.
06:02
Sports betting is mostly legal.
If something is legal, then there isn't much point in using blockchain.
If something is legal, then there isn't much point in using blockchain.
VV
06:04
Vladimir Vorkachev
im not saying current blockspeed ist fine for that goals, I just tried to find out about architectural limitations if any
IP
Z
06:06
Zack
If blocks are made twice as fast, then there would be more overhead when syncing. It would take longer to sync.
IP
06:06
I P
target is 10 minutes but we can change it with governance oracle
06:06
actually tried to sync eth blockchain once, failed😃😃
VV
06:07
Vladimir Vorkachev
you need ramdrive)
Z
06:07
Zack
If blocks were made twice as fast, then the propagation delay would be twice as bad proportionately.
Miners would have twice as many orphans. This is a worse problem for people mining from remote locations with slower internet.
Miners would have twice as many orphans. This is a worse problem for people mining from remote locations with slower internet.
VV
06:08
Vladimir Vorkachev
ok thats clear
06:10
I was comparing to new project Tera (i'm not sure that its technically right to compare different platforms). But what I see is that they have definately not less nodes and blocktime is ~1second
Z
06:13
Zack
Proof of stake systems like tendermint can support blocktimes ~1 second.
These types of POS systems are similar to a multisig bitcoin address. There is a list of master nodes who control the consensus.
A POS blockchain like that wouldn't be so suitable for prediction markets.
The master nodes can make the oracle lie and steal from the markets.
So we use Nakamoto consensus, like bitcoin.
These types of POS systems are similar to a multisig bitcoin address. There is a list of master nodes who control the consensus.
A POS blockchain like that wouldn't be so suitable for prediction markets.
The master nodes can make the oracle lie and steal from the markets.
So we use Nakamoto consensus, like bitcoin.
IP
06:14
I P
also PoW is the only reasonable way to distribute tokens
Z
06:21
Zack
yes, that is true as well.
06:22
It is possible to add a POW tx type to a tendermint blockchain, so you could still use POW to distribute tokens on tendermint.
And then you could have 1 second blocks.
But it might not work with prediction markets.
And then you could have 1 second blocks.
But it might not work with prediction markets.
Z
07:37
Zack
How about we combine prediction markets with a singing competition. "Futarchy Idol"
We could have conditional markets comparing how much money the show makes from advertisements with who gets eliminated from the competition.
We could have an auction before each episode for who gets advertised for that episode.
The amount of money raised in these auctions determines which conditional bets win.
We could have conditional markets comparing how much money the show makes from advertisements with who gets eliminated from the competition.
We could have an auction before each episode for who gets advertised for that episode.
The amount of money raised in these auctions determines which conditional bets win.
AS
07:49
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
What do u think when u said that ? Slower internet ? People with slow internet wouldn't have any chance to invest in Amoveo ASICs like u dream about.
07:50
It's contradicting i mean
Z
07:50
Zack
The places with the cheapest electricity are often remote.
Hydroelectric dams, geothermal generators, etc.
Hydroelectric dams, geothermal generators, etc.
07:51
Venezuela has many places like this.
AS
07:51
Aizen Sou
They will have best internet if they invest in ASICs
Deleted invited Deleted Account
07:51
Deleted Account
🖖
Z
08:07
Zack
The governance mechanism can reduce the block time, if the community decides that is the right thing to do.
IP
08:26
I P
In reply to this message
we would need to reduce block reward proportionally, so like 144 veo per day with 10 min blocks 1 veo per block, if we make it 5 min blocks it should be 0.5 veo per blocks
Z
08:40
Zack
{<<"Amoveo's difficulty is above 27000 th/b as measured by explorer.html at height 12001">>,
{oracle,<<85,8,216,132,9,239,160,200,238,216,192,191,20,
223,69,40,182,18,...>>,
3,
<<236,220,104,145,195,39,94,151,43,74,80,214,49,245,106,
236,...>>,
12001,2,1,
<<31,49,201,13,172,247,17,36,69,4,231,217,...>>,
<<4,245,141,14,218,146,197,92,121,207,82,...>>,
19629,0,0}},
It looks like one of the oracles closed at the wrong state.
{oracle,<<85,8,216,132,9,239,160,200,238,216,192,191,20,
223,69,40,182,18,...>>,
3,
<<236,220,104,145,195,39,94,151,43,74,80,214,49,245,106,
236,...>>,
12001,2,1,
<<31,49,201,13,172,247,17,36,69,4,231,217,...>>,
<<4,245,141,14,218,146,197,92,121,207,82,...>>,
19629,0,0}},
It looks like one of the oracles closed at the wrong state.
B
08:44
Ben
Why not just make 1 min blocks, 0.1 veo reward per block. And Zack, your argument about Oracle's being made to lie by a federation of masternodes, how would anyone verify they forced the lie? And also didn't you say if that happened you'd just fork and move to the new chain anyway?
OK
08:49
O K
In reply to this message
Fast blocks are not ideal for mining pool decentralization it would seem
B
08:53
Ben
If blocks are full you mean?
OK
08:58
O K
No, I mean if it takes 10 seconds for blocks to propagate to all competing pools, 10 seconds is a very substantial portion of 1 minute, and less substantial portion of 10 minutes
09:25
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
If we don't have a massive adoption on Latam the nodes can't sync correctly I have this problem since the last month but I hope with the adoption this can synchronize better and maybe we can avoid the orphans blocks.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
09:31
Deleted Account
is this miner working ok?
09:32
it's open source but it hasn't been updated for a few months now
Z
09:46
Zack
It probably works, but it probably is not as fast as miners that have included all the recent upgrades.
09:57
Deleted Account
i wonder whats the speed difference
09:57
it's the only open source windows miner
OK
10:33
O K
Veocl is also open source, the speed difference is massive
10:36
Deleted Account
will it work on windows?
OK
10:43
O K
I don't think so, but windows is not open source software
10:44
The closed source miners have been pretty well tested, people have done packet sniffing on them and they have been legitimate so far
10:44
I recommend github.com/phamhuong92/veominer
11:05
Deleted Account
I don't mean to offend but I trust microsoft more than a random guy on github ;)
11:06
and packet sniffing isn't enough, several days with idapro is whats necessary
11:06
maybe i'll try on linux then
B
20:15
Ben
and wear a tinfoil!
OK
20:17
O K
In reply to this message
The random guy on github is less likely to have backdoors in the software and a gag order about it
20:38
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
you haven't been around for more than a while in crypto, huh? wallets or mining software with malware such as password/privkey stealers, address/clipboard replacement and other shit has been common for years
20:38
In reply to this message
please tell me how microsoft is more likely to try and steal from me than a script kiddie with a lot of free time
OK
21:04
In reply to this message
Microsoft stole lots of people's access to Windows 7 by forcing updates against their will, but I'm not here to convince you what OS to use. If you'd rather use seriously obsolete mining software, it's no skin off my back
21:07
Zack I'd like to re-open the discussion about changing the diff adjustment algorithm to something more dynamic and modern
OK
Z
22:02
Zack
I notice that ethereum's retargetting algorithm does not target one particular rate. The target is a range from 10 seconds to 20 seconds.
If the blocks stay within the range, then the difficulty does not change.
I think having a range like this can prevent oscillations, so if we did it that way we could retarget faster.
If the blocks stay within the range, then the difficulty does not change.
I think having a range like this can prevent oscillations, so if we did it that way we could retarget faster.
B
22:22
Ben
that sounds awsome
22:23
currently we are a bit trapped in the 1K Blocks
G
17 July 2018
04:31
Deleted Account
Should Amoveo be in here: https://github.com/satoshilabs/slips/blob/master/slip-0044.md
AS
05:25
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
Indeed. Please Zack. How couldn't u see it when 99% of people here, mostly ur strongest supporters see that the current diff is a big problem
Z
IP
J
06:26
Insane low volume
06:27
They usually list coins without devs permission
OK
06:27
O K
Seems fledgling, can't find many reviews in either direction
J
06:27
Jackie
Hopefully another exchange will list veo soon
06:28
Cause coins usually die there
Z
06:28
Zack
It looks like qtrade is from Isaac Cook. who fixed that vulnerability recently.
IP
OK
06:30
O K
Apparently it's Isaac Cook's, who found the recent vuln
J
06:30
Jackie
But the bid orders seems pretty decent to start with
OK
06:30
O K
Maybe the partnership will be good
J
06:30
Jackie
0.055 and 0.045
06:30
1.5 veo tho hahah
IP
06:31
0.0055 btc per veo lol
06:31
36 buck
J
06:32
Jackie
Ohh shit my bad
06:32
Misread a decimal
MF
07:01
Mr Flintstone
oh shit veo on qtrade now?
07:01
I think we would know if veo has been listed for 3 months
07:05
Deleted Account
looks like veo is listed just now.
https://twitter.com/qTradeio/status/1018981973078040577
https://twitter.com/qTradeio/status/1018981973078040577
IP
07:13
I P
wow, cool. Is it safe to trade in qtrade? first time ever i see this exchange
MF
07:25
Mr Flintstone
haven’t heard anything, but i think we owe it to Isaac to at least try it out
B
10:19
Ben
already depositing ;)
B
10:19
Ben
Don't sell for anything less than $2k/veo!
10:20
Veos are rare gems!
IP
10:20
I P
true. really hard to mine 1 veo right now
Z
10:36
Zack
It looks like the delay is very long to deposit/withdrawal
S
11:23
Sebsebzen
Qtrade needs to register with coinmarketcap
IP
Z
12:41
Zack
I have not tried depositing to qtrade
S
13:12
there more interesting question would be, why is an US based exchang anonymous?
BB
14:17
Brian Brian
from the docs:
>block period - this is the average amount of time between when 2 blocks get mined.
this isn't descriptive enough. What does it mean exactly?
>block period - this is the average amount of time between when 2 blocks get mined.
this isn't descriptive enough. What does it mean exactly?
IP
S
14:59
Sy
In reply to this message
thats not really unusual tbh, many small coins have high confirms to make sure the money is really there - 10 will probably be enough for the future tho ^^
16:11
Deleted Account
An exchange is great news if it works :)
16:19
Another great thing, if the exchange gains traction, is the tradingview widget that allows many different plots for analysis of the veo price
Deleted invited Deleted Account
AS
18:13
Aizen Sou
Exchanges listing won't fix the broken VEO with 2-3 hours block time. There is zero interest, unfortunately
18:44
Deleted Account
? Cmon veo is not stable like BTC yet. The future is still bright though
18:45
And block times are below 1.5 hrs. No need for excageration. But that is still not vey good i agree. These things will pass
AS
19:00
Aizen Sou
I bet if i pull out all my mining power from VEO now it will drop to that range
19:01
Have been mining VEO for months with huge loss because I believed in it
AK
19:03
A K
I agree, e.g. ETH block times is a huge boost to practical usage. One can still wait 30m++ to achieve BTC level of confidence, yet being able to get sub 1m confirmations is awesome.
S
19:04
Sy
BTC is stable? xD
And i Agree with Aizen if my 3 biggest miner pull out the net looses about 40% of the net hash
And i Agree with Aizen if my 3 biggest miner pull out the net looses about 40% of the net hash
19:04
Avg block time is below 1h...but avg is a nasty word in crypto xD
AS
19:05
Aizen Sou
I don't know why Zack still insists with his old school diff retarget adjustment ? It works with Bitcoin doesn't mean it will work with VEO
AK
19:05
A K
Only works with very slow hashrate changes indeed. BCH had to implement some fixes.
AS
19:06
Aizen Sou
What would happen if 3 months later we are back to normal 144 blocks per day range and the Chinese abusers are back ?
19:06
Changing to 1000 blocks range doesn't fix the problem
AK
19:06
A K
These are two separate issues, agree
S
19:16
Sy
Yes and no, with this slow movement chances are high that price + hashrate wont move that far apart as it previously happened
19:17
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Zack mentioned considering about introducing ethereum's diff retargeting algo. it would be good because it's battle-tested.
S
19:17
Sy
although a hype is a hype...IF price goes up far beyond reasonable profitability yes, it will just happen again
[
19:17
[Riki]
we should be confident that such thing with chinese miners can not repeat, instead of predicting whether it will or not.
19:18
regardless of price action, such event should not repeat.
AK
S
19:36
Sy
In reply to this message
you cant avoid it from happening, if price hypes miners will switch and leave once the diff has caught up, that is nothing VEO exclusive - it stops or softens once there is more stable hashrate on the net which will hopefully happen within the next 6 month while the diff adjusts back to the 144 block finds target per day and profitability slowly increases
Deleted invited Deleted Account
[
19:51
[Riki]
In reply to this message
right but we can dampen that effect by making diff adjustments quicker
19:53
this would also avoid the other extreme, i.e. have 1000 blocks/day
B
19:58
Ben
I spoke with some veo investors that are hopeful Zack can find an innovative idea for speeding up block time 10x
AS
20:02
VEO will be long dead before that happens
S
20:27
Sy
No joke and it didnt die the last 2 month, probably wont the next 6
B
20:31
Ben
veo wont die, but it will permamently lose community
S
20:32
Sy
i doubt the permanently part, profit is a great attractor
AS
20:34
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
Because the first 4 months were running with acceptable confirmation time
S
20:34
Sy
If nothing changes, thats the timespan we are talking about
20:34
cant really argue with math ^^
AK
20:35
A K
Any reason for such, in my view, irrational behaviour? To make life harder for veo users ?
AS
20:35
Aizen Sou
And if it continues like that for 4 months, it will be dead
20:45
Deleted Account
I dont think veo will die in 6 months. But it would be a shame if the momentum Zack’s built up vanished for this reason. Speaking for myself this doesnt change much, but it seems most other people care a lot
20:45
My idea would be to make difficulty a governance variable that changed slowly, but the community could change it given enough support
20:46
Im not sure if thats feasible though, and might open up for an attack where someone abuse the system
B
20:47
Ben
Why make life harder? Why not simply run experiments — 24 hours with block times of 1 minute @ 0.1 veo/block, 24 hours w/ 2min blocktimes 0.2 veo/block — run 10 days of experiments, and determine if there are actually any real bottlenecks or issues, or if its only fear of theoretical problems.
20:47
Deleted Account
So to clarify: difficulty could change automatically like now, but also due to a governance variable change
B
20:47
Ben
It’s early enough to run experiments, given the entire project is an experiment
20:47
Deleted Account
One way do do it would be to make difficulty=governance+auto_diff
B
20:48
Ben
That’s nice for a longer term solution, but now you’re talking about adding a new governance+autdiff f(n) simply to run experiments
20:48
Deleted Account
Blocktime might also have been a governance variable
B
20:49
Ben
another thing that might be nice is more coders that can work on the project
20:49
Deleted Account
I think it would be a cool feature to set amove apart from other coins
B
20:49
Ben
zack might just be burnt out
20:49
Deleted Account
No. Dont think so
OK
20:50
Deleted Account
Zacks still quite productive
20:50
So i dont believe hes burnt out
Z
20:51
Deleted Account
Ok. But its just the time it takes for the diff algo to adjust then
OK
20:51
O K
I don't think changing governance variables is the best solution to this problem
20:52
Block times that are too fast are not good either, and good luck when miners are taking massive profits off too-fast blocks getting it changed the other direction
Z
20:53
Zack
It seems to me that a mining pool for Eth can lie about the time they mined the block by up to 900 seconds in the future, and the block will still get accepted.
This makes it about 5% less difficult to mine, and could potentially cause other mining pools to mine invalid blocks.
This makes it about 5% less difficult to mine, and could potentially cause other mining pools to mine invalid blocks.
B
20:54
Ben
eth is quite old and Data is available, did it happen?
20:54
i guess not
20:55
Deleted Account
Does the timestamp make it easier to mine? I would think its only used for the diff algoritm...
S
20:55
Sy
In reply to this message
You keep bringing this up, yet veo doesnt have a single check for any timestamp abnormalities - if you are so afraid this will happen, why arent we catching it? right now any timestamp is fine afaik
20:56
Why does mining a block into the future make mining easier? 😅
Z
20:56
Zack
In reply to this message
What is the goal of these experiments?
Costs: the blockchain software needs to be able to verify the entire history. Changing consensus rules repeatedly makes the code longer and more complicated.
more blocks means it takes longer to sync.
Benefits: ???
What would even motivate you to make a suggestion like this? Very random.
Costs: the blockchain software needs to be able to verify the entire history. Changing consensus rules repeatedly makes the code longer and more complicated.
more blocks means it takes longer to sync.
Benefits: ???
What would even motivate you to make a suggestion like this? Very random.
20:57
Deleted Account
I mean once you have a block it gets distributed anyways right?
Z
20:57
Zack
In reply to this message
I did a lot of work making Amoveo secure against timestamp abnormalities.
Just because you don't read the code doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Just because you don't read the code doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
20:57
In reply to this message
In Ethereum the timestamp is used to calculate the difficulty of the same block.
20:58
Deleted Account
Ok. Then it doesnt make sense _not_ to add 900 sec
20:58
:)
OK
Z
21:00
In reply to this message
definitely not.
If the blockchain freezes, we still know everyone's balances and can restart.
If VEO hyperinflates so the market cap is 10 billion veo, that is something we cannot undo.
If the blockchain freezes, we still know everyone's balances and can restart.
If VEO hyperinflates so the market cap is 10 billion veo, that is something we cannot undo.
21:00
Hyperinflation is a far worse failure mode than freezing.
OK
21:01
O K
In reply to this message
Can you please point to an example of a coin using LWMA that exhibited this behaviour?
Z
21:01
Zack
I don't know what LWMA is.
OK
Z
21:02
Zack
I may have known what that was in the context of a conversation at some point in the past.
21:02
but in our current context I don't know
OK
21:02
O K
Telegram is pretty great, you can click on quotes and it zooms you to the context
Z
21:04
Zack
https://github.com/zawy12/difficulty-algorithms/issues/3
You want me to find a blockchain that implements this?
You want me to find a blockchain that implements this?
21:04
looks like there are a list on that page
OK
21:05
O K
That's not what I asked for.
21:07
I asked about coins using LWMA that have experienced hyperinflation as a direct result of using LWMA
Z
21:08
Zack
I am not going to look up the history of all those blockchains
OK
21:10
O K
Or maybe a technical article on the topic? Or should we just take your word for it?
21:11
If the topic is the 'ease' in which a coin's difficulty can be oscillated
Z
21:12
Zack
The link I just provided talks about LWMA and oscillations.
S
21:12
Sy
In reply to this message
lol i asked you 100% if you are checking them, your answer was "i do it by hand every now and then, didnt spot anything yet" make up your mind...
OK
21:13
O K
The link you provided above recommends LWMA above other algorithms...
B
21:13
Ben
What will it take to get blocktimes to 1min or less
21:13
Can it be achieved securely
OK
S
B
21:14
Ben
Ok maybe we should mine two chains. One with 1min and one with 10. We will let miners decide
S
21:14
Sy
Doesnt change the diff problem at all xD
B
21:15
Ben
That's ok
S
21:16
Sy
What everyone keeps forgetting, Zack has more VEO than anyone else here - so his incentive to keep VEO alive is strong.
I am going with his decision to keep it as it is and let it "heal" itself slowly, natural growth cant be fast
I am going with his decision to keep it as it is and let it "heal" itself slowly, natural growth cant be fast
Z
21:16
Zack
In reply to this message
The block retargetting algorithm is part of the consensus mechanism. If I was manually deciding the difficulty, the blockchain would not be decentralized, or function at all.
B
21:16
Ben
Sy, Zack also stated he doesn't need money so your argument is fallacious
S
21:16
Sy
As a miner i really would like to see a short term solution but long term tbh i think what we decide now doesnt matter...
[
21:17
[Riki]
In reply to this message
slow healing would be ideal if pain would not come suddenly. time mismatch.
S
21:17
Sy
In reply to this message
Trust me, everyone needs money and no one throws away a few millions
Z
B
21:17
Ben
Sy, Zack said it
21:17
So we trust you or him?
21:17
Why trust you now but him about healing ?
S
21:18
Sy
In reply to this message
You do realize you are contradicting your whole statement right? Now you want to trust Zack but earlier with diff and blocktime you want a different solution 😂
B
21:18
Ben
Maybe Zack wants us to stop mining so he can mine more for himself for a while. Then he can have more incentive to improve its speed once his stash grows a little bigger. (not serious)
S
21:19
Sy
Anyway, this argument has happened a few times before, im pretty sure about the outcome so everyone who is here for the first time, enjoy.
ŽM
21:21
Živojin Mirić
did anyone check that VEO exchange?
21:22
is it legit?
B
21:22
Ben
The reason I like this project is because Zack doesn't want us to rely upon trusting him, or anyone. It's a great vision.
21:23
It also has a much better technical design than Augur')
S
21:24
Sy
In reply to this message
Several ppl me included have sent veo there, we are still waiting for confirmations - it is an anon exchange tho so it might just vanish at some point when there is enough money in it...or it might stay for years - who knows :)
ŽM
S
21:25
Sy
In reply to this message
This is incorrect, you have to trust many of zacks decisions, forking a coin is something you can do with any coin, has nothing to do with the argument
Z
21:27
Zack
In reply to this message
oh, LWMA is "linearly weighted moving average".
I programmed an exponentially weighted moving average here: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/zack-retargeting
Exponential seems superior because instead of O(N*N) it is O(N). Far easier to calculate the next difficulty, so light nodes can sync much faster.
I think that aspects of the moving average can be useful for retargeting, but using it too directly is dangerous.
The most recently mined block has an outsized impact on the difficulty, which can make it easier to perform oscillations.
Amoveo currently uses medians of blocktimes to avoid problems like this. As long as >50% of the miners are honest, then the median timestamp should be reasonably accurate.
I programmed an exponentially weighted moving average here: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/zack-retargeting
Exponential seems superior because instead of O(N*N) it is O(N). Far easier to calculate the next difficulty, so light nodes can sync much faster.
I think that aspects of the moving average can be useful for retargeting, but using it too directly is dangerous.
The most recently mined block has an outsized impact on the difficulty, which can make it easier to perform oscillations.
Amoveo currently uses medians of blocktimes to avoid problems like this. As long as >50% of the miners are honest, then the median timestamp should be reasonably accurate.
OK
21:28
O K
In reply to this message
This is a good reply Zack, I think it would be good to clarify one thing in your language
Z
21:30
Zack
Ethereum's retargetting seems crazy bad, since the timestamp on a block changes the difficulty of that same block. It amazes me that they built it that way. Maybe there is something I don't understand.
OK
21:30
O K
The 'ease' of oscillations is in making smaller short term oscillations, but then there are oscillations with a higher amplitude, like we are experiencing with Veo
Z
21:32
Zack
It is similar to designing a bridge. You need to make sure the bridge is secure against oscillations of any frequency.
Many bridges are not secure, they have a natural frequency where lots of energy can be stored in the oscillations.
Many bridges are not secure, they have a natural frequency where lots of energy can be stored in the oscillations.
21:33
There is the famous example of the giant silver ball in Taipei 101. The frequency of the ball's oscillations is phi*(frequency of the building's oscillations), so it acts as a dampener.
21:38
Oscillations are difficult because the software in Amoveo is only half the situation.
If miners are switching between 2 different blockchains, then the code being run in the other blockchain is important too.
If both blockchains have the same natural frequency, then it is easy for miners to get them to oscillate together and cause lots of damage.
If two blockchains have a frequencies in Phi ratio, then miners going back and forth between the two would be far less effective.
If miners are switching between 2 different blockchains, then the code being run in the other blockchain is important too.
If both blockchains have the same natural frequency, then it is easy for miners to get them to oscillate together and cause lots of damage.
If two blockchains have a frequencies in Phi ratio, then miners going back and forth between the two would be far less effective.
MN
21:43
Matthew Niemerg
Do you have a proof for that conjecture?
Z
21:44
Zack
Currently our dampener works like this: we limit how quickly difficulty can decrease by.
This asymmetric dampening means that on average the difficulty is always going to be a little higher than would be optimal.
This is a very conservative strategy.
The advantage is that we minimize the probability of failure by hyperinflation.
The disadvantage is that we grow more slowly than we could.
This asymmetric dampening means that on average the difficulty is always going to be a little higher than would be optimal.
This is a very conservative strategy.
The advantage is that we minimize the probability of failure by hyperinflation.
The disadvantage is that we grow more slowly than we could.
21:47
Now if only we could retarget a little quicker, we could reduce the harm caused by our current strategy.
I think we should use a feature from ethereum's retargetting strategy. In ethereum instead of targetting a single block time, they target a range.
As long as the block time is inside the range, then they don't change the difficulty.
A feature like this would allow us to react more rapidly without the danger of oscillations.
I think we should use a feature from ethereum's retargetting strategy. In ethereum instead of targetting a single block time, they target a range.
As long as the block time is inside the range, then they don't change the difficulty.
A feature like this would allow us to react more rapidly without the danger of oscillations.
21:47
The demand curve for mining is an S-curve. over time it is becoming more like a step-function.
MN
21:48
Matthew Niemerg
You mean that the demand curve for mining is modeled by the logistics function?
Z
21:49
Zack
The steepest part of the S-curve causes problems with most retargetting algorithms. If you measure that part of the curve, and then retarget, it is like a division by zero error. Difficulty ends up way too high.
21:49
Ethereum's strategy of targetting a range instead of a particular blocktime is like cutting out the middle part of the S-curve and only using the edges, which are less steep and more useful to measure.
MN
21:50
Matthew Niemerg
"If two blockchains have a frequencies in Phi ratio, then miners going back and forth between the two would be far less effective."
21:51
That's just pure conjecture.
Z
MN
21:51
Matthew Niemerg
And you are using other facts to postulate why the conjecture would be true, but with no definitive proofs.
21:52
At least when it comes to natural frequencies of bridges and dampening or amplification, there are proofs.
Z
21:52
Zack
In reply to this message
It is the same reason that the planets are in phi ratio around the sun.
Simple result of periodic events that can influence each other's timing.
If 2 processes are in phi ratio, they stop passing energy between each other.
Simple result of periodic events that can influence each other's timing.
If 2 processes are in phi ratio, they stop passing energy between each other.
MN
21:53
Matthew Niemerg
But why does that apply to mining ?
21:53
As I said, you're using other examples of this phenomena to spew bad science / math.
21:53
Baseless conjecture without proof.
21:54
Prove it, then we'll see.
Z
21:54
Zack
If 2 blockchains have the same frequency of difficulty oscillation, then they harmonize and make each other's vulnerabilities even worse.
Miners keep switching back and forth at the natural frequency.
Miners keep switching back and forth at the natural frequency.
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Z
21:55
Zack
If the 2 blockchains are in phi ratio, then miners can't switch back and forth to optimize mining on each.
Sometimes both blockchains will be less profitable simultaneously, and sometimes they will both be more profitable simultaneously.
Sometimes both blockchains will be less profitable simultaneously, and sometimes they will both be more profitable simultaneously.
T-IO invited T-IO
MN
21:59
Matthew Niemerg
ok -- so you have two things here. difficulty readjustment and the modeling of this value as a periodic step function and the constant changing of the hash rate, which is dependent on the market conditions.
Z
21:59
Zack
If we target a range instead of a particular blocktime, there are a couple drawbacks:
1) it will be harder to control the rate of production of VEO.
2) it will be harder to predict how many blocks until a particular date in the future (which makes it more expensive to participate in markets).
1) it will be harder to control the rate of production of VEO.
2) it will be harder to predict how many blocks until a particular date in the future (which makes it more expensive to participate in markets).
MN
21:59
Matthew Niemerg
the former is a function of the latter
Z
22:02
Zack
If we go with this strategy, we need to decide how big the range we target should be. Ethereum uses a factor of 2, but since our project is still a lot smaller, I think that the demand curve for mining is even more like a step-function for Amoveo than Ethereum.
There is a bigger portion in the middle of the curve we should ignore.
So maybe we should use a factor of 4.
There is a bigger portion in the middle of the curve we should ignore.
So maybe we should use a factor of 4.
22:07
In Ethereum, miners have to lie if a block takes more than 900 seconds.
A block with a timestamp more than 900 seconds after the previous block would be invalid.
So the miners would have to make a lying time-stamp just to make a valid block.
A block with a timestamp more than 900 seconds after the previous block would be invalid.
So the miners would have to make a lying time-stamp just to make a valid block.
22:09
There is less than one in a million odds that would happen in one millions blocks, so I doubt they even programmed in the possibility.
22:22
When other blockchains give better mining opportunities, it shifts the S right.
22:26
The retargetting algorithm can't have much memory, since the S curve is moving around.
The retargetting algorithm can only measure one point of the S curve. Given a particular block reward, it measures the hashrate.
From this one point of data we need to decide how much to change the difficulty by.
To make it worse, we don't know how tall the S curve is.
The retargetting algorithm can only measure one point of the S curve. Given a particular block reward, it measures the hashrate.
From this one point of data we need to decide how much to change the difficulty by.
To make it worse, we don't know how tall the S curve is.
22:26
Ideally we want the reward to stay just a little bit to the right of the steepest part of the S curve.