Amoveo ♥🧿
Previous messages
or if it is formatted like a tx:
Next messages
7 June 2018
IP
21:19
Deleted Account
talking about Amoveo blocks!
M
22:42
Minieep21
I was about to leave the house to setup CPU miners on the PCs in my uni engineering lab. Was stopped because I saw @Mandelhoff released his GPU miner 😢
22:42
Does seem like it was so long ago now
S
22:48
Sy
2 month maybe?
M
23:20
Minieep21
Only 3 months
23:21
CPU mining only lasted for a few days for main net release
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
23:26
Mr Flintstone
I remember cpu mining on aws lmao. they only let me have one instance and I had like 35 mh/s
23:26
g times
23:34
Deleted Account
Is that mining become easy these days?
23:35
My Gpu are still waiting to turn on
S
23:39
Sy
No
23:59
Deleted Account
Zack would be too risky to set a diff period in 500 blocks instead of 1000? In order to recover the situation in a month, miners don't leave if we don't have to wait too long to recover and even could return some.
8 June 2018
L
00:00
Larry
if difficulty comes back down, and profitability spikes, don't those opportunistic miners just come right back to rinse and repeat the cycle?
00:00
how is that avoided?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
00:02
Deleted Account
Hello, Where I can get a wallet?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
LB
S
00:43
Sy
well the shorter their rinse and repeat session is the less its worth it i think, thats why i like the 500 retarget aswell
00:44
wait for diff to drop and mine 2000 blocks, very nice
mine 1000....still okay
only get a part of 500...ah well
mine 1000....still okay
only get a part of 500...ah well
EP
02:16
Evans Pan
Chinese miners wont come back for veo, for a long time.
02:17
they dont do benchmarking with eth.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
02:28
Deleted Account
is possible to mine with windows?
Z
02:29
Zack
yes
02:31
Deleted Account
i saw on web that it s possible only with linux
02:31
ok
02:31
then lets try😊
02:42
Deleted Account
Can anyone help me to setup the wallet?
Z
02:47
Deleted Account
Yes got it now
02:47
thanks a lot
L
06:56
Deleted Account
WTS veo, where can I do this safely
Z
06:57
Zack
People trade on discord
Deleted invited Deleted Account
08:06
Deleted Account
Is the exchange not working still?
DY
T
13:34
Topab
I heard oracles are key to create stable coins. I think it is because the oracle can reliable determine the price of lets say 1 USD against BTC, but how that would actually work? how would a stable coin can be implemented in amoveo? has someone tried?
IP
DY
15:06
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
One way is to increase and decrease the number of coins in all wallets to keep the value per coin stable
DY
S
15:56
Sy
not really...if you do coins * 1000 then its price / 1000, value the same
15:57
In reply to this message
i dont really see how...afaik the oracle is there to determine the outcome of a market bet, not to stabilize anything
Deleted invited Deleted Account
DY
S
16:01
Sy
well thats why its not gonna happen
16:01
its something the chat wishes to do, not zack
DY
S
16:01
Sy
ppl will get used to super scarce high value coins 😎
16:02
Deleted Account
https://hackernoon.com/stablecoins-designing-a-price-stable-cryptocurrency-6bf24e2689e5 it’s called a non-collateralized stable coin. Not like how Tether is doing it for example
S
16:03
Sy
that isnt veo :)
16:06
Deleted Account
nope, but using oracle and it’s smart contracts it should be possible to create a stable token on Veo by inflating/deflating the supply of the token no?
T
Svark Ulu invited Svark Ulu
T
18:05
Topab
I have been reading the oracle in Amoveo. It looks very good. Still I read ... "Users can bet at 50-50 odds on which of the 3 outcomes they think will win. Whichever outcome gets the most bets, and maintains it's lead for a long enough amount of time, wins." "there is a cost for the miners to keep an eye on the oracle this way, but every time an attack happens, the miners can participate in the defense, and double all their money" miners or wealthy users will then have to keep alert all the time, is this feasible? An attacker could be dishonest and bet a large amount, triger a defense (wasting time and resources from the honest users and miners) and then pull back the money out so it does not lose anything (only what it cost to create the bet), If the dishonest user do this, the only risk is the money it cost to open a channel.Is thi right or I am missing something?
18:09
What happend when hundreds or thousands of bets are taken, Amoveo will have 2x the amount of bets of blockchain forks simultaneosly being mined? ... I know this does not make sense and for sure there is a way but could not read it in the whitepaper.
S
18:14
Sy
afaik you cant retract a bet...
18:15
and amoveo doesnt just fork on bets...
18:15
the only reason to fork is if an oracle got manipulated that its not telling the truth, which should never happen because its free money for everyone else
18:16
like you place a sport bet, you always link those to an oracle that tells the outcome afterwards by ppl betting in it
18:17
if someone bet on the wrong side earlier he might try to make the outcome oracle tell a lie by betting on the side what would give him his bet win....but this would be spotted by the network and the net should always be stronger combined than any individual, thus shifting the oracle to the truth and taking his money aswell
18:18
usually imho an oracle is always linked to an actual bet, ppl gamble their money on the bet and after the event happened the oracle decides how the event happened
18:18
aka who won the championship or whatever
18:19
i mean we are talking yes no questions here so if you want to create bets for a championship you basicly have to create one question for every outcome you want ppl to bet on on a market
18:19
link those questions to oracles, tell the oracle what happened afterwards, resolv the oracle, resolve the questions
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
21:06
Topab
Clever and elegant! Thanks for the clarification
21:07
From the white paper I understood the blockchain forks on every bet
MF
21:10
Mr Flintstone
you can get stability in usd, eur btc or even gold terms by shorting veo using a swap or cfd against the currency where you want stability
21:11
we can do this using smart contracts attached to oracle outcomes
T
MF
21:13
Mr Flintstone
this functionality hasn’t been built yet. we would need to program new kinds of smart contracts
21:13
we currently have smart contracts for binary options and lightning payments
21:14
I suppose you could crudely get stability using binary options, but I feel like it’s probably better to do it with a swap of some kind
T
Z
22:21
Zack
Ole is right. We can do stable coins.
22:23
In reply to this message
Most bets are off-chain in the lightning network. The blockchain doesn't even know they happened.
9 June 2018
Sir Chart Alot invited Sir Chart Alot
T
03:25
Topab
Bets on the lightning network seem safe to avoid unnecessary forks. Given lighting network is still being tested and will require some time before implementation. I hope this come soon anyway
Z
03:29
Zack
Lightning network on amoveo is operational
03:29
We had lightning from day 1. On March 2
T
03:39
Topab
But doesn't have quite some bugs at this stage?
Z
04:39
Zack
It works fine. All the tests are passing.
We even have working turing complete contracts inside the lightning network. That is how the markets for financial derivatives work.
We even have working turing complete contracts inside the lightning network. That is how the markets for financial derivatives work.
04:40
Amoveo was designed to use the lightning network.
We didn't path it on as an afterthought.
We didn't path it on as an afterthought.
T
04:52
Topab
Got it! That is really great
I
05:22
IRD
Hi, amoveo can verify blocks in parellel. I am wonder, what are the number of txs it can handle?
05:25
or is it insignificant because things can be handled offline in the lightning network?
05:25
*offchain
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
11:37
Zack
Amoveo could theoretically handle a lot of txs.
The ability to occasionally handle lots of txs makes the channels much more secure.
Ideally we won't have too many txs, since it makes the full node more expensive.
Once people start using channels more, then there should be less on-chain txs.
The ability to occasionally handle lots of txs makes the channels much more secure.
Ideally we won't have too many txs, since it makes the full node more expensive.
Once people start using channels more, then there should be less on-chain txs.
s
12:19
sanket
Is there a guide for doing this?
Z
20:04
Zack
Guide for doing what? Making txs?
Use the javascript light node.
Use the javascript light node.
22:38
Deleted Account
What's the discord link?
22:39
Can you show me
B
10 June 2018
01:23
Deleted Account
wts 15 veo @430 usd. pm
S
01:25
Sy
Trade in discord pls...
[
01:35
[Riki]
jay the dumper
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Ghost 🟢f St. Miklos invited Ghost 🟢f St. Miklos
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
N
18:48
NM$L
so quiet
E
19:20
Deleted Account via @gif
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
51.7 KB
IP
N
19:55
what
IP
19:56
I P
nothing, just less quiet now
N
DY
20:19
Demi Yilmaz
Yea y so quiet
s
21:53
shiggidy (will never dm you first)
Because hardly any blocks are found lol
Z
21:57
Zack
seems like a lot of conversation has moved to discord
Vadym invited Vadym
Z S invited Z S
Nathan Allman invited Nathan Allman
11 June 2018
B
01:04
Branc
wts 2 veo for 2 eth
E
02:34
Deleted Account
wts 15 veo @430 usd. pm
B
05:02
Bluedream
why veo's price don't fall?
05:02
bitcoin crash now
L
05:17
Larry
It’s magic
Deleted invited Deleted Account
JS
Deleted invited Deleted Account
05:54
Deleted Account
Hey guys how did you connect your full node to the pool?
Z
08:50
Zack
if you start the full node and pool on the same computer, they should be able to connect together.
Minh Chu Đức - CTO invited Minh Chu Đức - CTO
Deleted invited Deleted Account
JL6363 invited JL6363
[
17:41
[Riki]
17:41
Anyone else using the new amoveo hairspray?
17:49
Deleted Account
wts 15 veo @430 usd. pm
IP
18:34
I P
In reply to this message
we don't trade here, you was told that before, please go trade in disocrd, there are trading related channels there
G
21:48
Gonzalo
Ultra power!! 🙃
L
[
22:55
[Riki]
12 June 2018
F
04:36
Fića
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
224.5 KB
Jack Wolfskin invited Jack Wolfskin
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
stupid bird invited stupid bird
A
14:42
Aries
hmm
14:43
so we just all moved to the Discord group?
IP
14:50
I P
In reply to this message
well kind of. discord is more convenient because there are different channels there for each topic you need to discuss. telegram is for general stuff. and right now there is not much of a discussion anyways
A
15:53
Aries
ok no biggie
Z
20:08
Zack
I want to buy $10 of bitcoin to test out the exchange. the exchange is almost ready.
20:09
Does anyone have bitcoin available for me to buy?
J
20:10
Justin
I have some handy to experiment with
Z
J
20:17
Justin
👍
20:30
Zack is this a normal custodial exchange you are building? Or something “sexier”?
Z
20:36
Zack
For now it is an escrow tool.
J
21:24
Justin
👍
B
22:33
Ben
why not use Bitrated?
22:33
re-inventing the Wheel is waste of time, isn't it?
[
B
23:53
Ben
afaik Bitrated is kind of autoamted.
13 June 2018
00:11
Deleted Account
Escrow Tool especially for amoveo. Maybe expandable for Exhange
Z
01:54
Zack
http://159.89.106.253:8087/main.html
I am looking for beta testers to do a trade with the new escrow tool
I am looking for beta testers to do a trade with the new escrow tool
MF
02:32
Mr Flintstone
thanks zack!
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
03:04
Mr Flintstone
should this exchange work right now in theory?
03:04
without a beta testing phase
Z
04:00
Zack
I did a test run, everything seems to be working.
The first time someone other than me uses it, I will be on standby so if anything goes wrong we can finish it off like a manual escrow.
The first time someone other than me uses it, I will be on standby so if anything goes wrong we can finish it off like a manual escrow.
А
Z
06:21
Zack
ask me questions. I am making more instructions based on where people get lost.
PL
06:35
Paww Lee
Which one is the best pool and the best miner?
k
06:36
kdmlll
That looks pretty much like the tool I was proposing to you before Zack.
Z
07:06
Zack
yes, and thank you for that.
I actually forgot who it was that suggested it.
I actually forgot who it was that suggested it.
07:06
I would have saved so much time if I had just listened to you from the start.
S
11:42
Sebsebzen
With current block time, how long till fork?
11:43
2 months?
B
13:36
Ben
if hash does not increase yes.
S
13:45
Sy
?!
13:45
Try 2-3 weeks
B
14:16
Ben
ah true, it was scheduled for block 26900?
S
14:26
Sebsebzen
Too long
S
14:29
Sy
900 is fork, after that every 1000 a retarget
S
14:32
Sebsebzen
but now how many blocks per day? 12?
S
14:46
Sy
we have never been at 12...
16:59
Deleted Account
~40
S
17:05
Sy
more like 25, not sure where the 30+ from veopool are coming from, hashrate is more or less unchanged
Deleted invited Deleted Account
B
17:27
Ben
48 Blocks would be nice, 30 min per block
IP
S
17:27
Sy
probably but its like double the blocks we usually find
17:27
i mean it HAS to be luck but you are always wondering ^^
P S invited P S
luigiiban invited luigiiban
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Andy invited Andy
ŽM
milki invited milki
S
19:34
Sy
since my pool is finding the veo, no
19:35
Deleted Account
Here's a question
What is it about veo that makes it worth mining now?
What is it about veo that makes it worth mining now?
S
19:35
Sy
Right now, nothing much
19:36
Deleted Account
Why not now?
S
19:36
Sy
Its simple math, if you make more money in another coin you usually mine the other coin and if you really believe in future value of another one aka speculation you go buy it, why should you mine it directly if you get more mining something else and buying?
19:37
The question is as old as mining
19:37
you can always mine for future values but if you could buy more mining something else, why would you mine the coin directly?
19:38
Deleted Account
Zack still getting refund when testing the automated escrow? I am willing to post a WTB of 0.1 Veo to test it
19:39
Deleted Account
Is GPU mining over for veo then for the average person with 1 rig?
S
19:40
Sy
why would the amount of rigs be of any interest?
19:40
you make small $, others make big $, it all comes down to your initial invest into your farm, % you all make the same
19:41
Deleted Account
Maybe I should phrase it this way... how long for 1 block for 36 Ghs?
S
19:41
Sy
~24 on avg
19:41
Deleted Account
Try iij ng to determine if mining veo is worth it compared to other coins
19:41
Trying*
19:41
24 hours?
S
19:42
Sy
lol
19:42
days dude
19:42
Deleted Account
Ok
19:42
Thank you, sorry for all the questions
S
19:42
Sy
np
19:44
Deleted Account
And how much is veo selling for now?
N
19:49
Deleted Account
So it would be ~$16/day for an rig with 8 1080tis
19:50
Better than nicehash I guess lol
S
20:09
Sy
nicehash / eth is pretty desperate to begin with ^^
Z
21:27
Zack
Once the conditional prediction market is ready, we will be able to ask it controversial questions about hard updates to Amoveo.
For example, there is a lot of uncertainty about Amoveo's retargeting system.
We could ask a conditional prediction market about how the price of VEO correlates with which retargeting system we decide to use, and the prediction market will tell us which choice is best.
Maybe Amoveo is a religious tool, and the conditional prediction market is how our prayers are answered.
It gives us access to the knowledge of a supreme being that knows more than any human.
For example, there is a lot of uncertainty about Amoveo's retargeting system.
We could ask a conditional prediction market about how the price of VEO correlates with which retargeting system we decide to use, and the prediction market will tell us which choice is best.
Maybe Amoveo is a religious tool, and the conditional prediction market is how our prayers are answered.
It gives us access to the knowledge of a supreme being that knows more than any human.
OK
21:28
O K
🙌
Z
21:32
Zack
If we can get the Pope to mention Amoveo, I think it would be good for the price.
OK
21:32
O K
🤣
ES
22:07
Ed Sonic
😂
DY
22:17
Demi Yilmaz
Zack these guys want to do 30 minute interview with you. Would you like to do it?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMaEPDGn-aN3ZSMJ6pBRV2A
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMaEPDGn-aN3ZSMJ6pBRV2A
Z
22:21
Zack
I don't know Turkish
DY
22:22
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Its going to be in english. Ex-cloudflare senior eng will interview you.
L
Z
22:23
Zack
Sure I would talk to these people about Amoveo. But I need to do it by text, so that I can copy-paste any good questions into the documentation.
L
22:25
Larry
🤣😂
Z
22:26
Zumwalt
In reply to this message
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
20.1 KB
DY
22:27
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Okay cool. Im letting the guys know. Btw itd be better if it is video but tge questions could be prepared and sent before hand if its going to be easier. You can talk the details with them. They’re helpful 😊
Z
IP
14 June 2018
K
00:24
Kan
Is there a docker version of amoveo full node?
Z
00:47
Zack
no
Z
01:07
Zack
How do you feel about re-branding Amoveo as Ouija Coin
VV
01:08
Vladimir Vorkachev
In reply to this message
If it will involve converting 0.001VEO as 1VEO than any name will work
OK
01:09
O K
Personally think Amoveo has great potential as a brand, no need to re-brand
J
01:09
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈 via @gif
In reply to this message
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
754.1 KB
[
01:10
[Riki]
Lets call it bitcoin oracle
Z
01:10
Zack
bitcoin mindhive
[
01:11
[Riki]
Name still available, hurry up
IP
01:11
I P
In reply to this message
Zack, no need to rebrand. Only need more publicity, bug fixes, https on escrow and nodes, educational videos on how to use all amoveo potential
JB
01:11
Jose Burrito
Pythiacoin
IP
01:11
I P
In reply to this message
branding as a bitcoin would be wrong. project does not use bitcoin codebas
Z
01:12
Zack
My current goals are a hard fork to make oracle questions more afordable, and a smart contract for conditional markets
IP
Z
01:12
Zack
aegur
01:13
aeugur
JB
01:13
Jose Burrito
Lol
OK
01:13
O K
bitgurnity
01:13
coin
01:15
Deleted Account
The name Amoveo has grown on me and Im no longer able to tell if its a good or bad name. In particular i like the «veo» name of the coin.
Z
01:16
Zack
I was thinking after getting the conditional markets working, I might make several home pages with different brands and different ways of describing the product. Then start posting about all of them to see which has the most traction.
Maybe I will focus on cliques of humans, and making individual products to service their cliques. Explaining in their own language, using relatable examples for use-cases.
Maybe I will focus on cliques of humans, and making individual products to service their cliques. Explaining in their own language, using relatable examples for use-cases.
01:17
I expect conditional markets to be our killer use-case, so once they are available I need to start focusing on who will be the first community of users.
01:17
or maybe I should leave "amoveo" on every home page.
01:19
Deleted Account
Maybe the best rebranding would be dropping «amo» and call the whole thing just veo. Like dropping the «the» in the facebook
01:20
Easier to pronounce at least
l
01:24
lolvut
Nah. Amo = love in spanish/portuguese/latin. Subconsciously you're saying "i love veo" when you say amoveo x) Amoveo has a nice sound to it imho
OK
S
01:30
Sebsebzen
In reply to this message
I think thats risky from a brand perspective. It dilutes the brand name. Especially at this very early stage.
01:31
I actually would recommend finding a professional or an agency to come up with a concept
OK
IP
01:33
I P
In reply to this message
+1. Zack is good at coding but branding also needs its professionals
OK
01:34
O K
The most difficult thing for non-Zacks to do is do the core code work
IP
OK
01:36
O K
It's a bit of a niche language is all
01:36
As we grow, we need to use division of labour to our advantage
S
01:37
Sebsebzen
Finding a good design language is really difficult
01:37
Would take too much time from coding
IP
01:38
I P
In reply to this message
true. Maybe first we can make a call to volunteers? people who would be able to do smth. Well i mean we already have volunteer made custom pools, block explorer. chrome plugin and bets website, also someone made the logo and exchange is in progress
OK
01:39
O K
In reply to this message
There has been an impressive amount of community building around the amoveo brand
IP
01:39
I P
so definitely we already have people besides Zack who want to do smth with veo AND are actually able to AND already did smth good (thx to all of them by the way)
01:44
In reply to this message
that is true, i only meant that maybe there are other people who are willing to join.
Z
01:48
Zack
I am not a fan of spray and pray advertising, especially when we don't have users yet.
We need to find a clique of humans who can actually use Amoveo for something.
Then I can work with this clique to know what to write to help them achieve their goals.
Once it is easy for us to adopt a user without me walking them through the steps, then maybe spray and pray advertising could be useful.
First we need to find a small group of people who can get so much benefit from Amoveo that it is worth it to overcome the high cost of using such new software.
But first I think we should get the conditional markets working
We need to find a clique of humans who can actually use Amoveo for something.
Then I can work with this clique to know what to write to help them achieve their goals.
Once it is easy for us to adopt a user without me walking them through the steps, then maybe spray and pray advertising could be useful.
First we need to find a small group of people who can get so much benefit from Amoveo that it is worth it to overcome the high cost of using such new software.
But first I think we should get the conditional markets working
OK
01:55
O K
Zack in Amoveo will people be able to interact with markets through a channel hub? I.e. If B has a channel with A, and A is hosting a market, could C be able to interact with A's market by opening a channel with B?
01:55
Either now or in the future
Z
02:04
Zack
Yes, but not yet.
A 2-step contract means that the money is locked up in channels 2x.
Ideally the network would realize the inefficiency, and make a new channel between B and C, so the bet can be moved to a direct path, and the market can unlock all of it's funds to be ready for other people to bet.
Another simpler way this could happen if you wanted to trade with someone directly at whatever the current market price is, you could make a bet with them to accept whatever price is published by the market next.
You can query for a signed price declaration from the market even if neither of you have a channel with the market.
Or you could just trade at the most recent price, and the contract would be a lot simpler.
It is a little risky to do this with extra large trades, since a large trade can move the market price and give one of you a better deal.
A 2-step contract means that the money is locked up in channels 2x.
Ideally the network would realize the inefficiency, and make a new channel between B and C, so the bet can be moved to a direct path, and the market can unlock all of it's funds to be ready for other people to bet.
Another simpler way this could happen if you wanted to trade with someone directly at whatever the current market price is, you could make a bet with them to accept whatever price is published by the market next.
You can query for a signed price declaration from the market even if neither of you have a channel with the market.
Or you could just trade at the most recent price, and the contract would be a lot simpler.
It is a little risky to do this with extra large trades, since a large trade can move the market price and give one of you a better deal.
MF
02:05
Mr Flintstone
I think our first users will be gamblers
02:05
using amoveobook.com or something similar
DY
IP
02:34
please ban them, also would be good to make a delay for people who just enter discord server so that they can't spam right away. also would be cool to have mods, for example @Simon3456 could do it, i could do it
DY
OK
02:35
O K
I volunteer to mod
02:35
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Ouija??? No way. Amoveo sounds nice. I don't how do you pronounce it.. But as someone said with Spanish pronunciation sounds great. Amoveo. love veo
IP
DY
02:35
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Yes O K would be a good mod also. I can also volunteer if needed.
OK
02:36
O K
We can start with basic rules that are relatively unambiguous, to free up some of Zack's time and attention
02:36
Shilling another coin = warning, obvious spamming is a ban, or whatever seems appropriate and conservative
Z
L
IP
02:39
I P
E
02:40
EdoFazlinovic
In reply to this message
I don't like any coin which have "coin" in their name expect "bitcoin"
Z
02:41
Zack
Ouija Bit Coin
I
02:41
Iridescence
Please not Ouija coin 🙈
OK
02:44
O K via @gif
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
191.9 KB
L
Z
02:47
Zack
Ouija boards are those religious things where you pray at it some question, and a higher power spells out the answer.
Which is basically what Amoveo does, except Amoveo actually works.
Which is basically what Amoveo does, except Amoveo actually works.
02:48
Everyone touches the cursor at once, and the higher power spells the answer by summing up the collective twitches of everyone's hands.
I
02:50
Iridescence
I am against any name that includes Ouija because people have preconceived notions toward what an Ouija is, and they are usually negative
Z
02:50
Zack
02:53
In reply to this message
You are right. If we got the wrong spirit mad, Amoveo could become haunted.
I
02:54
Iridescence
A haunted Blockchain....
MF
03:53
Mr Flintstone
lol
03:55
Zack how do you feel about proof of burn for initial token distribution?
Z
04:05
Zack
Proof of burn is fine.
I think pow is best, that is why I used it for Amoveo.
Because proof of burn doesn't seen like a valid long-term solution to adding more value to a blockchain.
I think pow is best, that is why I used it for Amoveo.
Because proof of burn doesn't seen like a valid long-term solution to adding more value to a blockchain.
S
04:09
Sebsebzen
Zack thats true re where to place VEO in the market, usecase, etc. However, that's really something that requires lots of thought and experience. It's very delicate science and there are people who spend their entire life working in that field.
04:10
I just think that at this point its best to keep it clean and simple, and when we have a funding mechanism, bring in the big guns, professional agencies, have them come up with several proposals.
04:12
In a way the current setup is very elegant. No homepage, just a github, bare to the bone, minimalistic and no dead weight.
IP
04:30
I P
In reply to this message
for technical people yes. for broader audience veo is a huge turnaway because there is no website, they don't understand how to use light wallet (lol but true) they do not understand how to use all advanced features (actually very few people understand and use it now because all the others need better guides)
S
04:31
Sebsebzen
Yes, ONE simple homepage is definitely needed
04:32
but not five, that'd be confusing
05:40
Deleted Account via @gif
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
48.5 KB
Justifier_93 joined group by link from Group
J
06:22
Justifier_93
Hey guys
06:22
So can anyone tell me something about this currency?
06:22
Will this be on an exchange any time soon
06:22
Or will other projects implement this currency?
T
06:38
Topab
I also like Amoveo. I haven't been long in the community but love the project. Not tech skills so no help in coding. Contributing with few gh/s of power to protect the network.
06:38
In reply to this message
What do you mean by initial token distribution? I thought mining was the distribution
Z
06:44
Zack
In reply to this message
http://159.89.106.253:8087/main.html
This is an automatic escrow tool. similar to an exchange.
This is an automatic escrow tool. similar to an exchange.
06:45
In reply to this message
Amoveo is distributed by mining. Mr Flintstone is learning about alternative designs of blockchains.
MH
06:46
Mandel Hoff
Zack can a channel have a negative fee? The use case would be like a traditional bank's savings account that pays interest. It may be a less-friction user experience to lend veo to a 'bank/investment group', and let them do advanced market plays. Can Amoveo provide that sort of user and service provider tech through channels?
Z
06:48
Zack
you can pay veo in either direction in a channel.
Any payment can be thought of as a "fee" I guess.
You cannot use a channel for debt.
You can use a channel to buy and sell risk in anything that you can ask the oracle.
Any payment can be thought of as a "fee" I guess.
You cannot use a channel for debt.
You can use a channel to buy and sell risk in anything that you can ask the oracle.
06:49
The bank/investment group could give you advice on which contracts to purchase
06:49
The money at stake in a channel is locked in the channel. It can't simultaneously do anything else.
MH
06:50
Mandel Hoff
Aside from gambling as entertainment, I think novices will generally shy away from most types of active markets. Time and expertise are expensive qualities. It would be nice if they can still contribute to the ecosystem through a generally passive activity.
06:51
Understood - veo locked in channels. I think that's the key part of what I was trying to figure out on a 'savings account' like service idea.
Z
06:52
Zack
Maybe the first popular use-case will be for getting leaders of companies replaced, or helping victims avoid harassment.
06:52
Or helping companies decide on which business plan to go with.
06:52
or predicting the locations of earthquakes
06:53
or hedging your risk without having to sell your cryptocurrency, that way you don't have to pay capital gains when you sell the cryptocurrency.
06:54
Political gambling is mostly done as a form of insurance, not for entertainment.
Some people stand to gain/lose a lot of money depending on who gets elected.
Some people stand to gain/lose a lot of money depending on who gets elected.
IP
06:58
I P
Zack each time i read this future outlook this makes me feel weird because i don't know how to use veo for all that stuff and clearly i don't understand it enough (how it works) so it can be used in such thing. Would be cool if there were some educational stuff on how to use veo for all this with examples
PB
07:03
Phil Bonello
In reply to this message
+1 I'd be happy to collaborate on some educational resources
Z
07:08
Zack
In reply to this message
Paul is better at stuff like this than me. http://bitcoinhivemind.com/papers/3_PM_Applications.pdf
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
12:13
Sebsebzen
Thats a pretty good white paper
s
13:02
sanket
Let's call it zackmoto
T
13:32
Topab
Could the oracle be used for individuals reputation? e when people borrow money you want o make sure the person have high chances to give it back. You could ask the oracle about one individual reputation and store the result so that with time it builds a record. But, because the amount of persons participating in evaluating the person reputation is small (only those close to the person who knows him/her could eventually participate), the person valuated could take the other side with small money and bias oracle prediction. Reputation will be needed for those lending platforms and more and I was thinking about how Amoveo could do this, but perhaps this does not make sense for Amoveo.
Wopin invited Wopin
W
16:47
Wopin
Hi
17:00
Deleted Account
Hi Wopim
Z
MF
21:40
Mr Flintstone
yo
21:40
did you guys see this new supercomputer with 27k Tesla v100s?
DY
IP
S
21:46
Sy
haha yeah i saw it
21:46
sadly v100 isnt faster than a titan V so... -.-
Deleted invited Deleted Account
15 June 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
PB
03:02
Phil Bonello
In reply to this message
Have you spoken with Paul about your design of Amoveo? It seems to follow his design closely but from what I understand he disagrees in a few areas?
Z
03:03
Zack
Yes. I spoke with him.
03:04
He wants to build on bitcoin technology.
PB
DY
S
03:18
Sy
bitcoin xD
[
03:18
[Riki]
zack likes erc20
Z
03:19
Zack
It is hard to predict the future. We needed to build in a way so that it is easy to make changes when we learn new thing.
It seemed to me that modifying bitcoin would have resulted in a brittle code base that is hard to update.
It seemed to me that modifying bitcoin would have resulted in a brittle code base that is hard to update.
IP
03:27
I P
Let's deploy 'Zackoshi' erc-20 tokens!
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
09:20
Zack
How about a market to bet on how many days till we mine the next 1000 blocks.
What is a good under-over?
40 blocks per day means 25 days.
What is a good under-over?
40 blocks per day means 25 days.
А
09:24
Андрюхин
In reply to this message
faster, cause after new difficulty change it will came more profitable and some miners will come back
Z
09:25
Zack
so maybe the market should just be till height 27000?
А
09:26
Андрюхин
let's make a vote. democratic way )
Z
09:27
Zack
I am the one paying to launch the oracle and host the market.
You can make your own market and oracle if you want.
I am here for advice.
You can make your own market and oracle if you want.
I am here for advice.
А
09:28
Андрюхин
that's too hard for me. I'm just a dumb miner )
A
IP
10:11
I P
In reply to this message
well we have 385 blocks till fork to reduce diff, at a rate of 30 blocks per day it is 13 days, i like that number
ES
10:13
Ed Sonic
In reply to this message
Lesson on blockchain erlang programing available or what? I want to learn the basics
DY
16:08
Demi Yilmaz
For http://amoveo.exchange/
We'll send forms for private beta application to registered users this Saturday. Hopefully the first traders will be able to start next week.
We'll send forms for private beta application to registered users this Saturday. Hopefully the first traders will be able to start next week.
IP
16:09
I P
Wow cool😊👍
N
16:28
NM$L
cool
Z
Adrian Verde (No te pediré dinero por privado) invited Adrian Verde (No te pediré dinero por privado)
20:40
Deleted Account
Have you looked at Elixir Zack? I wrote http://amoveo.noncense.tech backend in it, pretty cool and less Prolog-ish
Z
20:41
Zack
yes, I have programmed in elixir.
sd
20:48
steel dan
Zack Could you please instruct how we can write and sign messages (arbitrary byte strings) on the amoveo blockchain if it is possible by spending VEO for this transaction? I mean the sequence of API commands on the full node
20:50
This is possible on btc, by using simple python wrappers, for instance
20:52
It's useful for building secondary layers on the blockchain network
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
21:07
Zack
keys:raw_sign(<<"message">>).or if it is formatted like a tx:
keys:sign(Tx).
21:36
Deleted Account
@zack you should do a talk at Elixir/Erlang conf sometime, will probably annoy the Aeternity guys who are heavily backed by Erlang Factory
Z
MF
23:30
Mr Flintstone
getting lucky with blocks recently?
[
23:30
[Riki]
Diff too low
23:31
😆
Z
16 June 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
ES
K
01:54
Kan
I was looking into Amoveo transactions. Why isn't there a transaction hash?
Z
02:44
Zack
you can hash transactions.
K
03:43
Kan
I was wondering why other currencies have it and why amoveo doesn't need it
Z
04:14
Zack
You can hash transactions in Amoveo too.
А
04:29
Андрюхин
What's the real difficulty now ? On block I see that number
04:29
04:30
on mveo I see another numbers
04:30
05:45
Deleted Account
46.5 PH is the correct number, it’s the same as we have on http://amoveo.noncense.tech
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Josh L invited Josh L
JL
08:19
Josh L
yo
08:19
cool project
08:25
is there a profitablity calculator?
MF
09:01
here is the actual link
sd
09:58
steel dan
@zack how do you use swagger? I only find 2 references w.r.t. swagger in makefile ... There is no swagger.yaml file in the project or any swagger dependency. Do you intend to add some related features later on?
Naeem Wakileh invited Naeem Wakileh
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Sebsebzen invited サカイ
Pr0p3r invited Pr0p3r
Spamsicle invited Spamsicle
А
Z
22:45
Zack
In reply to this message
no.
When I worked at Aeternity the other programmers made a big mess with swagger stuff, and I still haven't managed to get rid of it all.
When I worked at Aeternity the other programmers made a big mess with swagger stuff, and I still haven't managed to get rid of it all.
22:46
In reply to this message
А
23:14
Андрюхин
Every one ) If I want to sell some veo, what do I have to do ?
23:14
what data should I fiil ?
23:15
address that will receive VEO, amount veo to sell, amout bitcoins to buy ?
Z
23:15
Zack
first deposit your veo. then make a trade. then the other person withdraws the veo.
23:17
depositing the veo takes 4 blocks.
А
23:27
Андрюхин
Ok. After that I need to fill those fields: My bitcoin Address(seller), His VEO address (Buyer), time in seconds (will keep it by default), how many to sell (my veo amount), how many BTC (total payment for all veo in BTC) and press generate unsigned trade request. Right ?
Z
23:53
Zack
there is a fee, you can't sell all your veo.
23:54
If it doesn't work, you can show me the generated request and try again.
23:54
you can't make the trade until your veo are deposited and confirmed.
17 June 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
DY
00:10
Demi Yilmaz
Is there anyone who registered in the past couple of days to https://amoveo.exchange/
and got his email to spam folder?
and got his email to spam folder?
00:14
Deleted Account
Is that exchange functioning?
DY
00:15
Demi Yilmaz
Yes in private testing.
А
00:15
Андрюхин
In reply to this message
I know, I just asked to be prepared. Because I don't understand the procedure clearly, I don't want to lose anything.
Z
00:17
Zack
How would you possibly lose anything?
00:17
I guess if instead of putting your own bitcoin address, you used someone else's
00:18
so you are paying veo for someone other than you to get paid bitcoin.
А
00:19
Андрюхин
In reply to this message
Can you just tell me what to do. step by step. 1. I deposited some veo (10 for example). 2. I filled all these fields above and click on generate unsigned trade request. 3. The buyer send me bitcoins. 4. ??????
Z
01:05
Zack
you deposited already? what is the veo address so that I can confirm?
01:05
the buyer shouldn't send the bitcoin until they confirm that the escrow is working.
Scrypte invited Scrypte
Z
01:05
Zack
you can look up an escrow with the bitcoin address
01:06
Everything you need to know is written on that page. I could screen shot it and post it here, but I don't think that would help you.
S
01:07
Scrypte
Is this Gpu minable or Asic's are already in?
Z
01:09
Zack
it seems like only GPU for now.
S
01:10
Scrypte
Well sweet! any recommended pools?
A
01:23
Al
not much talks here currently :) btw guys, got few veo for good guys, pm me if you need them
IP
01:26
i mined there for a long time, works fine
Z
А
02:00
Андрюхин
In reply to this message
yes, my wallet is BH5uq7aGWPYZdZx2Da8NkeRSIaaZS3EsV79M05RQKA4dSFWn2LPCv13cbZAt+ovqWQ9DZf10v7D8IOpADDMcLVQ=
Z
02:03
Zack
http://159.89.106.253:8087/main.html
It says you haven't deposited yet. did you wait 4 confirmations?
It says you haven't deposited yet. did you wait 4 confirmations?
А
02:05
Андрюхин
hmmm. no, ok, let's wait for 4 blocks and we'll continue. thank you for helping.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
16:13
Deleted Account
hi
16:13
what is circulating supply
16:13
and current market cap of VEO ?
S
16:40
Deleted Account
so market cap around 11mil usd ?
16:40
S
16:52
Sy
more like 10
16:53
Deleted Account
How cost of 1 evo in usd? Thx
S
16:53
Sy
300
19:27
Deleted Account
is there python or js wallet client for amoveo ?
19:29
Does it support HD wallet addresses ?
Z
20:42
Zack
http://159.65.120.84:8080/wallet.html
It uses the same pubkey/privkey system as bitcoin, so HD wallets should be possible, but we don't have them yet.
It uses the same pubkey/privkey system as bitcoin, so HD wallets should be possible, but we don't have them yet.
j
22:18
jayntguru
Using wallet w/ssl doesn't concern anyone?
OK
HN
22:26
H N
when is diff going down
22:26
should be in 10 days right ?
22:44
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
So, can we use a bitcoin address generator to generate addresses for amoveo. Is the address tag same ?
Z
23:04
Zack
In reply to this message
the addresses are encoded differently in Amoveo.
Currently we take the 65 byte binary of the uncompressed pubkey, and then encode in base 64.
It would be nice if we could update it to accept the 33 byte compressed binary instead, like bitcoin does.
Currently we take the 65 byte binary of the uncompressed pubkey, and then encode in base 64.
It would be nice if we could update it to accept the 33 byte compressed binary instead, like bitcoin does.
23:53
Deleted Account
thanks Zack
23:53
I was looking at the http api endpoints. But, I couldn't find an API to generate public key and addresses
23:54
Is there a public API available for address gen and key-pair gen?
18 June 2018
Z
00:01
Zack
If someone offers you an api for generating pubkeys, then they are trying to steal your money.
I do not want to steal your money, so I don't build things like that.
you can use the light wallet to make an address: http://159.65.120.84:8080/wallet.html
I do not want to steal your money, so I don't build things like that.
you can use the light wallet to make an address: http://159.65.120.84:8080/wallet.html
00:05
Deleted Account
I understand that. But, i was looking for a local http endpoint so that i could easily build a client using that. Looks like i have to look at the js code and port the address generation logic to go
00:05
Is the amoveo transaction model similar to bitcoin UXTO ?
00:07
I wanted to create transactions manually by providing previous transaction outputs as inputs, perform offline signing and broadcast it
Z
00:09
Zack
no, we use accounts, not utxo.
I don't see why you would want to generate an address in go.
there is an api for making transactions. that is how you can spend from the javascript light node.
The javascript light node already supports offline signing and broadcasting of signed txs.
I don't see why you would want to generate an address in go.
there is an api for making transactions. that is how you can spend from the javascript light node.
The javascript light node already supports offline signing and broadcasting of signed txs.
00:11
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-exchange
I wrote this escrow tool.
Part of it is for keeping track of balances of people who deposited veo to the exchange.
I wrote this escrow tool.
Part of it is for keeping track of balances of people who deposited veo to the exchange.
00:12
Deleted Account
Thanks, I will take a look.
00:13
I wanted to do all of this in go because the existing infrastructure is in golang.
Z
00:16
Zack
All of what in golang?
I don't understand why you would want to generate an address in a new language.
I don't understand why you would want to generate an address in a new language.
00:16
You only need 1 address.
00:19
Deleted Account
This is for an exchange integration
00:21
We need to implement automated address generation, transactions watching, offline signing and transaction broadcast.
S
00:21
Sy
check the js for the light wallet i guess
00:21
it is generating addresses after all
00:21
and doing the offline signing and broadcasting
00:21
the watching you are on your own but it is possible now with the txid you get from the spend
00:22
Deleted Account
Sure
00:23
Does the lightwallet code work against single node dev testnet ?
Z
00:25
Zack
no, the light wallet has the hard forks programmed into it. so it uses different code for early blocks and late blocks.
00:25
it wont sync headers
00:26
Deleted Account
okay
Z
00:26
Zack
in single node testnet all the forks are happening right away, that way we can test how it works after the forks already happened.
Maybe if you edited forks.erl to make the forks happen at different heights while testing, then it work work
Maybe if you edited forks.erl to make the forks happen at different heights while testing, then it work work
00:26
Deleted Account
alright. I will try it out
IP
04:06
I P
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😊, 29.9 KB
ed p invited ed p
A B invited A B
Mark invited Mark
19 June 2018
MF
01:45
Mr Flintstone
looks like we another project using the veo ticker
S
01:45
Sebsebzen
oh no
01:45
arrrr
01:45
thats why should be on exchange with cmc API already
01:46
I cant find it at cmc tho
MF
01:46
Mr Flintstone
Veio is the first coin to provide a decentralized system for renewable energy reward based waste management platform and electricity/energy trading. Join the revolution and let's save earth using blockchain while getting real value for our efforts.
01:46
aka complete shitcoin
S
01:46
Sebsebzen
still VEO is excellent ticker
MF
01:46
Mr Flintstone
not too worried about this one
01:46
yeah
S
01:46
Sebsebzen
hope we can get it on cmc on time
MF
02:11
Mr Flintstone
is there some application process for cmc?
S
02:12
Sebsebzen
yes
02:12
but you need an exchange with an API integration afaik
02:12
to get the market tracked
S
02:19
Sy
and 50k daily volume i think
MF
02:31
Mr Flintstone
tdax is already integrated right
02:31
I mean it’s in cmc
S
02:52
Sebsebzen
yes
02:52
2-3 weeks until VEO can be added
02:52
technical part
02:52
but also have to wait for Thai SEC now
02:52
next days
02:52
we know
MF
02:53
Mr Flintstone
Thai sec whitelists additions to tdax?
S
02:53
Sebsebzen
Not sure if we allowed to add new coins before license is granted
02:53
but we will talk to them next days
MF
02:53
Mr Flintstone
cool
ikethecoder invited ikethecoder
h
06:41
hewwo
For CMC you need 100k daily volume
IP
h
06:43
hewwo
Yep
06:43
And 100k daily on it
Z
07:11
Zack
There are a lot of cryptocurrencies on CMC with less than 100k daily volume
[
07:15
once it gets listed, el dorado
Z
07:24
Zack
So I just have to send 1 kiloveo to myself a few times?
07:24
through an exchange
07:24
while I am also running the exchange
MF
07:48
Mr Flintstone
lol
IP
07:54
but the exchange itself needs to be listed on CMC
A
IP
08:26
I P
In reply to this message
you need to have 100k$ daily volume for 1 week on an exchange which itself is listed on cmc
08:26
for an exchange to be listed on cmc it has to have a consistent volume (don't remeber how much) with trading fees
L
08:34
Larry
so now we want VEO on an exchange?
08:34
why the sudden change?
MF
08:37
Mr Flintstone
I don’t think we want to lose veo ticker
I
09:35
Iridescence
Good old wash trading 😁
Alex N invited Alex N
B
13:18
Ben
exchange could get us some needed miner back
S
13:22
Sy
moving coins and liquidity is a bit bad right now, if you "only" have to move them to an exchange trading might pick up a bit
Deleted joined group by link from Group
14:38
Deleted Account
Does this have a discord group?
S
[
G
DY
22:09
Demi Yilmaz
Zack what do you think is the reason it took this long for augur team to launch? And do you think they are going to launch a working product? What are your views on it?
Z
22:12
Zack
It is really hard to build something like augur onto ethereum.
Augur has a fundamental design flaw that will make it too expensive to be useful.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/oracle_motivations.md
Augur has a fundamental design flaw that will make it too expensive to be useful.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/oracle_motivations.md
DY
22:25
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
I didn't quite understand what augurs fundamental design flaw is?
Z
22:27
Zack
they use a voting system based on a subcurrency called Rep.
They need to keep the value of rep bigger than the total volume of bets. in order to keep the market cap high, they need to charge fees.
They need to keep the value of rep bigger than the total volume of bets. in order to keep the market cap high, they need to charge fees.
DY
22:29
Demi Yilmaz
Alright got it 👍
h
S
22:35
Sebsebzen
maybe would make sense to have 1 month 0% trading fee promo
22:35
;)
20 June 2018
PB
03:29
Phil Bonello
Any worry about volatility of Veo within an oracle? Is this a moot point since everyone betting experiences the same volatility?
Z
CR
MF
04:27
Mr Flintstone
you can hedge out your veo/usd price risk, but a lot of volatility in veo/usd makes this hedging activity more expensive
04:27
you can actually use amoveo to hedge out this price risk
04:27
in theory
Z
04:28
Zack
at the current market rate.
You can only sell risk that someone else wants to buy.
You can only sell risk that someone else wants to buy.
MF
04:29
Mr Flintstone
yeah. you can enter into a veo/usd cfd with someone else
04:29
the problem with a lot of volatility is that this will on average increase margin requirements
04:30
also, I can imagine that the interest rate of amoveo will be quite high in the beginning of its life , so this is an added expense
04:30
interest rate of veo*
PB
04:32
Phil Bonello
Can you create a derivative that is then used in an Amoveo oracle contract?
MF
04:33
Mr Flintstone
you create derivatives that pay out based on what happens in amoveo oracles
04:33
any kind of derivative you can think of pretty much
04:33
since these derivatives are coded in a Turing complete language
Z
04:33
Zack
If there is enough demand for people who want to go long VEO with leverage, then it could make stable coins more affordable.
If there is enough demand, then the stable coin would beat the USD.
If there is enough demand, then the stable coin would beat the USD.
PB
04:33
Phil Bonello
i guess im thinking of it in two layers, but maybe im off
Z
04:34
Zack
people could pay you to own the stable coin and give them your risk.
MF
04:35
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
Amoveo oracles happen on the base chain. markets, which are derivatives attached to oracle outcomes, happen in layer two
Z
04:35
Zack
In reply to this message
there is no "oracle contract".
First we ask the oracle a question.
Then we can make smart contracts that depend on the outcome of the oracle.
First we ask the oracle a question.
Then we can make smart contracts that depend on the outcome of the oracle.
PB
04:35
Phil Bonello
gotcha
sd
06:37
steel dan
In reply to this message
Can we make a smart contract not depending on the outcome of the oracle, but some other event on the amoveo chain, or like Bitcoin script does, or like a multi sig wallet arrangement?
Z
06:37
Zack
the smart contract language is turing complete, and the smart contracts have access to all the blockchain consensus state.
MF
06:42
Mr Flintstone
cool
06:42
so we can directly bet on say, what the block reward will be at height xxxxx
06:42
without an oracle
06:42
we would need to modify the smart contract, but this is possible right?
06:43
without a question oracle I should say
Z
07:35
Zack
yes, you can do that.
Instead of looking something up from the oracle tree, you look it up from the governance tree.
Instead of looking something up from the oracle tree, you look it up from the governance tree.
MF
09:12
Mr Flintstone
bithumb hacked for 30mn
09:13
they are covering it apparently
OK
09:15
O K
Covering?
E
09:36
EdoFazlinovic
It's not covering. IT's all over the news
MF
09:38
Mr Flintstone
They are paying for it
09:39
is my understanding
OK
09:41
O K
30 mil
09:41
That's a lot to cover
11:10
Deleted Account
What's current eth price?
J
11:23
Justin
What do you think of Emotiq?
11:24
The CEO is Joel Reymont who left Aeon. Would be cool to know what Zack thinks about him
11:24
Im not impressed with their whitepaper
16:06
Deleted Account
I fixed a minor bug in Veoscan. The urls for account or block pages were double url encoded. Now they are properly encoded. To keep backward compatibility, older version of urls are still accessible. Thank you Sy and Gonzalo for pointing this out.
M
G
Alex Mead invited Alex Mead
AM
19:47
Alex Mead
So been mining for 4 hours now and shows up with hashrate on miner details page, but no balance. Does this take a long time to show up. Thanks
B
19:50
Bluedream
amoveo price falls down recently?
Z
19:55
Zack
In reply to this message
Joel did a terrible job when he was programming on Amoveo.
He didn't understand what we were trying to build, and didn't try to find out.
He added thousands of lines of useless code that I had to delete.
He did not add a single line of useful software.
He didn't understand what we were trying to build, and didn't try to find out.
He added thousands of lines of useless code that I had to delete.
He did not add a single line of useful software.
L
19:56
Larry
Tell us how you really feel though
AM
20:01
Alex Mead
Ok. Thanks Matt
A
20:04
Aries
useless code you must go
ES
20:13
Deleted Account
Alex if you're mining on http://amoveo.noncense.tech/ you will see your estimated block reward starting to increase almost instantly
Z
MF
20:25
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
lol this is my favorite question to be asked thus far in here
AM
S
JS
Prudhvi invited Prudhvi
P
20:51
Prudhvi
Hello guys
20:52
How to mine with amd ?
20:52
Could any one help ?
Z
P
21:19
Prudhvi
Thank you
IP
indie ram invited indie ram
ir
21:29
indie ram
Is there any GUI or QT wallet ?
Z
ir
21:43
indie ram
How to encrypt
21:43
21:53
What's the hashrate for nvidia 1060 3gb
IP
ir
IP
ir
21:59
indie ram
What's the price of VEO now ?
VV
ir
22:11
indie ram
😂😂😂
Z
22:13
Zack
It seems to be around $200 - $400
ir
22:24
indie ram
What's the circulating n total supply
Z
J
HN
23:13
H N
Zack
23:14
Please lower the diff by 90 percent
A
23:27
Deleted Account
90% decrease will bring violent oscillation and 51% attacks. Diff should adjust gradually.
Z
23:41
Zack
@vabhiramreddy wants help setting up a miner.
He should start here: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
He should start here: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
21 June 2018
sd
01:22
steel dan
@zack are all language options for chalang equivalent in terms of features? I mean you can write totally equivalent smart contracts in erlang, js, forth, lisp? Can I write smart contract chalang code in erlang too, right? I find it more preferable now than js, or lisp/forth ofc
K
01:23
Kan
Zack when requesting block by blocknumber, the result doesn't have blockhash.
1) how do you calculate blockhash from the provided data?
2) why isn't blockhash inside the response?
1) how do you calculate blockhash from the provided data?
2) why isn't blockhash inside the response?
sd
01:23
steel dan
Zack what about this mysterious wepesa project? Can't find any references on Google. Were you also working for them? Do you trust their code, because you wrote it? Is it mature?
Z
01:28
Zack
In reply to this message
chalang is a virtual machine. you can only write contracts for this virtual machine.
I have written some compilers for languages to make these smart contracts.
I have written some compilers for languages to make these smart contracts.
sd
01:29
steel dan
The guys u forked from
01:29
Chalang git repo
Z
01:30
Zack
I gave Aeternity ownership of the chalang github repository, and Aeternity gave it to wepesa.
If you look at the pull request you can see that I wrote Chalang.
If you look at the pull request you can see that I wrote Chalang.
sd
01:30
steel dan
In reply to this message
Right, and the language of the Smart contract is erlang primarily but lisp, forth, js are also other options?
01:31
Didn't know it
01:31
Yeah, I'm asking because wepesa seems to have vanished after the ico so I got curious
Z
01:32
Zack
no. erlang code is compiled to beam bytecode which runs on the erlang virtual machine.
the chalang virtual machine can only understand chalang bytecode. I have written several compilers from other languages into chalang bytecode.
the chalang virtual machine can only understand chalang bytecode. I have written several compilers from other languages into chalang bytecode.
sd
01:33
steel dan
And they follow lisp or forth syntax, right?
01:33
The contracts that we can write
01:33
Or js, if we want too...
01:33
But not erlang syntax... If I understand correctly
01:36
I was just hoping I could write chalang smart contracts in erlang , since I am now very passionate about erlang
sd
04:54
steel dan
Zack is it technically possible and relatively simple to have an erlang -like instruction set for chalang besides the sets in lisp/forth/JS syntax you provide? I think it is... lisp and forth (or even JS) chalang syntaxes do not look so attractive
04:55
I am aware that you have other coding priorities right now, I just am curious to know
sd
08:08
steel dan
Zack Can we combine multiple inputs (i.e. many accounts together to spend from) in a tx, as in BTC? we can have multiple outputs, ofc, after the multi-tx tree merge.... if not, do you plan to implement multiple inputs feature, like bitcoin does?\
Z
11:26
Zack
you can write a new compiler to output chalang bytecode if you want.
You cannot combine inputs.
You cannot combine inputs.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
13:21
Sy
Yet...
Matthew Croughan invited Matthew Croughan
S
18:21
Sy
hardfork at block 26900
18:21
soon
MC
18:22
Matthew Croughan
What's the current difficulty, and are there any benchmarks for vegas by comparison to 1080ti?
18:23
Also nice to see such a real project just floating about at this time
S
18:28
Sy
diff is shot to hell...no idea about benchmarks
MC
18:29
Matthew Croughan
Ah I looked it up, kinda seems like it's not worth mining, even on vegas.
18:29
with a speculative value of 1eth per VEO
18:30
actually, no, it is just about worth it, not that obvious though :D
18:31
because cryptonotes fluctuate, hmm, ye gonna figure this out when I wake up.
S
18:36
Sy
its no super gainer, most miners here want to push it back into the green zone
sd
20:49
steel dan
In reply to this message
Zack having multiple accounts as inputs in a tx is feasible to program for amoveo, right? although not something urgent to implement, I guess
S
20:58
Sy
its already done, just waiting for the block to fork
sd
S
21:13
Sy
yeah zack got it done like maybe a month ago
21:13
blocks are just super slow so the fork takes longer than we would like
21:14
17 days ago
sd
21:22
steel dan
In reply to this message
Yes, I had seen that, but I thought it concerned multiple outputs only, not multiple inputs; "multi-spend
+This is used to make one tx that spends veo to multiple recipients.
+This spends 500 satoshis to one account, and 450 to another:"
+This is used to make one tx that spends veo to multiple recipients.
+This spends 500 satoshis to one account, and 450 to another:"
S
21:30
Sy
hmm since the node isnt designed to work with more than one address, a multi input is currently impossible
21:30
you mean a wallet like btc where you control n addresses right?
sd
21:33
steel dan
yes, I thought something similar, I was wondering if the feature is relatively easy to implement... It will probably takes several patches, I guess
21:34
In reply to this message
I suppose you mean controlling n accounts, in the case of amoveo, right?
21:36
So is the amoveo logic in its ledger closer to ETH account based system? Has ETH a similar constraint (use funds from one account only) too ?
S
21:42
Sy
i think most ppl are still using my ether wallet and such so yes, only one account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
22 June 2018
JM
02:34
J M
Anyone interested in VEO bets on the World Cup? There is currently a poll going on in the #markets channel on Discord for the next market to be made on AmoveoBook
Deleted invited Deleted Account
sd
04:54
steel dan
Zack you have said in the past that the full node cant run if it runs in root user mode.... i understand the security concerns, but do you have some lock in place that prevents this automatically? which erl file dictates that?
S
05:48
Sy
na you can just start it np
sd
07:00
steel dan
@Simon3456 Zack thank you. btw, do you know which database or erlang module the erlang function db:save(?LOC, X) refers to? I can't find any db.erl file. Is it some module dependency it refers to????
Zack said he uses erlang dictionaries as data structures for storing, but I don't see any dict: functions from http://erlang.org/doc/man/dict.html.
Zack said he uses erlang dictionaries as data structures for storing, but I don't see any dict: functions from http://erlang.org/doc/man/dict.html.
07:03
Zack How come you don't use mnesia which is popular in erlang ecosystem? aeternity uses it... I am sure you will have a solid reason, I really like to know... Thank you in advance
sd
07:09
steel dan
ooh thank you
07:12
there could easily happen a name conflict if there was a another db.erl file in some other dependency though :))) The rebar build tool would have caught that when compiling, right?
07:13
erlang is a bit loose/linient on that... It should have demanded that we use dump:db:save (ok, this is not syntactically correct in erlang, of course), or something like that... in python, it would be dump.db.save, for example
07:16
there is a risk, because you use so many 3rd party dependencies, it's impossible to remember function names from them that you don't use, for example
Z
07:27
Zack
I wrote dump.
sd
07:36
steel dan
yes, i know, your bumblebeebat repo, but there could be name conflicts with kernel,
stdlib,
ssl,
cowboy,
lager, inets,
jiffy, for instance :)))) erlang does not protect that unless it can catch it during make rebar compile process
stdlib,
ssl,
cowboy,
lager, inets,
jiffy, for instance :)))) erlang does not protect that unless it can catch it during make rebar compile process
07:36
do you plan to use mnesia when data grows significantly?
Z
07:47
Zack
What data would grow significantly?
I only store to file this way for things that stay small enough so it works.
I only store to file this way for things that stay small enough so it works.
07:49
I don't use tools unless I need them. I see no need for mnesia.
sd
07:50
steel dan
I mean in 1-2 yrs, when there are many bets, oracles, txs, accounts hitting the blockchain
07:50
right now, it's super, no doubt
07:53
in bitcoin, they switched from berkeleydb to leveldb, when it was needed, that;s why Im asking... ok, you know best, and maybe it is too soon to discuss this, I was wondering, if you had some special reason to reject mnesia which is popular in erlang ecosystem in general
Z
07:56
Zack
I don't use a tool unless I need it. I see no need for mnesia.
sd
08:04
steel dan
👍
SS
Z
08:35
Zack
no.
08:37
Amoveo only has features that help us achieve our goal. Markets for financial derivatives.
Josh L invited Josh L
T
12:06
Topab
So when the fork happens, do I have to change any parameters in the miners or just do nothing?
B
13:42
Ben
no, you don't have to do anything
13:42
we are about a week away from the Hardfork
A
16:01
Aries
does Veoscan have a new link?
16:04
T
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Tomas Povilaitis invited Tomas Povilaitis
A K invited A K
AK
21:07
A K
Hi
21:08
Anybody can give a market for VEO, what's the bid/offer?
IP
AK
21:08
A K
Tnx! Ppl trade here or Discord mostly? Perhaps there's a dedicated TG channel for trading as well?
IP
AK
21:22
A K
diff pools show very different network hashrate ( what's the best source?
MF
21:25
Mr Flintstone
I think they are just showing the hash on their pool
AK
21:26
A K
some show "network hashrate" too
MF
21:28
Mr Flintstone
net hash is probably around 18-19 th/s
21:28
maybe a little less
AK
Deleted invited Deleted Account
23 June 2018
A
00:20
Al
hi guys, sory for spam - planning to sell around 14 veo for cheap - if you need them pm
S
00:25
Sy
Alisher...always selling cheap xD
A
Deleted invited Deleted Account
OK
JM
IP
MC
24 June 2018
A
01:53
Al
guys how long does it take to send veo currently?
Z
01:57
Zack
depends how many confirmations you want
01:57
a block is about 1 hour currently
Andrew invited Andrew
A
02:07
Andrew
Yo yo yo
02:08
Wassup my brothers
MF
02:19
Mr Flintstone
hello
OK
02:21
O K
hello
A
02:24
Andrew
How’s it going guys?
02:24
Whos the HNIC here?
MF
02:26
he programmed amoveo
02:26
also invented the tech
Vadim invited Vadim
A
03:38
Andrew
Oh wow nice
JS
03:55
Jon Snow
Love the energy
A
04:00
Aries
Hush pan pan
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
DY
A
13:03
Andrew
Guys - lets try to get to 1,000 member milestone!
DY
A
13:05
Andrew
It probably will, but I just found out about this project /coin recently and I like what I am seeing
DY
A
13:06
Andrew
Someone in one of my other channels mentioned it and I started looking into it
Маргарита Ямалетдинова joined group by link from Group
Ulli W invited Ulli W
S
B
17:27
Ben
yeah we don't want girl's here
17:27
man's club!
17:39
Deleted Account
Kicking out spammer is OK, but I think we should not assume there are only male in this channel :)
Deleted invited Deleted Account
A
20:24
Andrew
Lol hey bro how’s it going!
25 June 2018
mknown invited mknown
L
00:36
This guy has some real chutzpah
S
00:38
Sy
im pretty sure we had over 1k at some point
00:38
before china left i think
MF
00:45
Mr Flintstone
no id ont think so
A
L
01:32
Really whacked everything out eh?
S
01:33
Sy
yeah
Bear Jackson invited Bear Jackson
L
04:17
Zack ?
Z
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
05:45
Sy
In reply to this message
Basicly the bigger the network the less impact individuals will have
05:46
but we are pretty small again right now - not sure tbh - but the diff wont just drop back, only -17% every adjust so its no ping pong
IP
05:53
I P
In reply to this message
as Sy said there is now a limit on difficulty adjusting down. so hit and run tactic don't work. when you come with a lot of hashrate, mine coins, leave, wait next readjustment, diff goes down hard and you hit it again. it won't happen with veo because of new code update
L
05:55
thanks for responses btw guys
IP
05:56
I P
In reply to this message
by the time they decide to return network will grow so their impact will be much less.
L
05:57
Larry
ahh i see
05:57
so this works assuming the network grows in the meantime
IP
05:57
I P
of course IF they decide and if they don't forget😂😂 last time they were with us was because of crazy demand for veo with lots of buying and high prices
L
05:59
Larry
right right
05:59
Thanks @Simon3456 and @kitty123 :)
A
12:01
Andrew
Where can I buy some Amoveo and how much is it?
L
12:02
they have a trading channel there
A
L
12:04
Larry
👊👊
A
12:08
Andrew
🤝👍👌
26 June 2018
MF
00:04
Mr Flintstone
great to see the tx dropping issue looks to be fixed
IP
S
00:14
Sy
zack did and i helped a bit, never stopped being annoying 😝
IP
00:22
I P
In reply to this message
nice work😊👍 i will return mining veo once it gets not so hot in here, like 30+ degrees i'm cooked if i run my farms😂😂 had to turn them off lol
G
00:27
Gonzalo
Great 👍
CK invited CK
MF
04:29
Mr Flintstone
lol two blocks 30 seconds apart
S
05:06
Sy
😎
A
IP
06:44
I P
In reply to this message
i know there was problem that we were loosing about 20% hashpower or so, did it also get fixed?
L
T
13:16
Topab
Hi Zack I came across rhis article that may be interesting for you and Amoveo. Not sure though https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2018/01/22/statebox-a-universal-language-of-distributed-systems/
S
13:23
but we just had a 6h gap 😝 its really hard to tell with so little hashpower what part is random and what is a pattern
Z
18:24
Zack
if the average is 1 hour per block, then there is a 1/64 chance that a block will take 6 hours.
About 20 blocks per day, so there should be a 6-hour block about twice per week.
About 20 blocks per day, so there should be a 6-hour block about twice per week.
J
19:14
Jax
Amoveopool2 down?
Z
OK
19:29
O K
Checking
J
20:04
Jax
Ok now the site works fine and my rigs too... It was probably something wrong with my connection
MC
21:07
Matthew Croughan
anyone got the pool with the current highest hashrate?
S
21:07
as seen here
MC
21:08
Matthew Croughan
what's the hr measured in?
S
21:08
Sy
TH
MC
21:08
Matthew Croughan
10.78
21:08
ah k
21:08
any particular idea what a vega gets?
21:08
or whether the algo prefers nvidia vs amd?
S
21:09
Sy
not that i know off, better ask in discord tho
21:09
its not super profitable tho
21:09
overall speaking, we are in a diff ditch right now
MC
21:12
Matthew Croughan
Yeah profitability sucks lol
21:13
$3.8 daily based on 1ETH per veo for 2 vegas, 6.4GH/s
S
21:17
Sy
and how much with eth / nicehash?
MC
21:17
Matthew Croughan
more.
S
21:17
Sy
1 ETH is way too high right now tho, try 250-300$
MC
21:17
Matthew Croughan
Although you wouldn't want to mine either of those with vegas.
IP
MC
21:18
Matthew Croughan
Well then it's ridiculously low profit.
S
21:18
Sy
like i said :)
MC
21:18
Matthew Croughan
Like, pennies, for two Vegas.
IP
MC
21:18
Matthew Croughan
Where's the diff graph?
21:18
No!
21:18
Why would you mine eth lmao
S
21:18
Sy
check back in a month or two when diff has adjusted at least once
21:18
MC
21:18
Matthew Croughan
Vegas do not make good profit on anything but cryptonight.
S
21:18
Sy
click reset zoom on diff
MC
21:19
Matthew Croughan
Uh, why is the difficulty inverse to the nethash?
21:19
that's the opposite behaviour
S
21:19
Sy
not if you only retarget every x blocks
21:19
and get raped by china
MC
21:19
Matthew Croughan
... why are you doing it like that
21:19
Why is that a thing
S
21:19
Sy
oldschool i guess
21:19
has its ups and downs
MC
21:20
Matthew Croughan
I get that the veo nethash doesn't matter, but why not use something like LWMA
S
21:20
Sy
doesnt care about ddos for example
21:20
like most small coins, we had all pools ddosed for at least a week
MC
21:20
Matthew Croughan
No, I don't think this has any ups.
21:20
This is antiquated tech.
S
21:20
Sy
i just named you one...
MC
21:21
Matthew Croughan
What does ddosing have to do with mining?
IP
S
21:21
Sy
lol
MC
21:21
Matthew Croughan
submitting shares to a pool
S
21:21
Sy
and im out
MC
21:21
Matthew Croughan
No, really, I don't get it, so explain it to me instead of being cocky.
S
21:21
Sy
i did
IP
MC
21:21
Matthew Croughan
This is the height of cockiness.
S
21:21
Sy
and im not cocky, i dont have time for this
MC
21:21
Matthew Croughan
I'm here in a niche project asking how something works, and you're telling me to go away.
S
21:22
Sy
i can just not answer at all like the others if you prefer it that way, you dont call them cocky...
A
21:22
Aries
dont answer
MC
21:22
Matthew Croughan
No, you haven't answered anything at all.
21:22
And I'll keep asking every day until you do.
S
21:22
Sy
i did, you just dont understand it, yet you talk like you do
MC
21:22
Matthew Croughan
You said something vague, "helps with ddos"
21:22
without explaining how.
S
21:22
Sy
back to work - later
MC
21:22
Matthew Croughan
Look into LWMA.
A
21:22
Aries
Don't do his HW
IP
21:23
I P
In reply to this message
Voice message
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
00:17, 40.6 KB
MC
21:23
You're talking about a small coin only?
21:23
So this is only relevant with regards to small coins?
IP
21:24
I P
In reply to this message
Voice message
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
00:17, 41.4 KB
MC
21:24
Matthew Croughan
which veo only has two, so I understand if that's what we're talking about.
21:25
I don't understand how you'd ddos a network that is made up of many many many servers. You can't ddos a distributed thing..? You're just wasting bandwidth at that point are you not?
IP
21:25
I P
In reply to this message
Voice message
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
00:07, 18.4 KB
MF
21:25
Mr Flintstone
you can ddos the block producers
21:26
aka the pools
MC
21:26
Matthew Croughan
so a ddosing a big pool?
21:26
Again, if your mining is decentralized, this can't be accomplished.
MF
21:26
Mr Flintstone
it isn’t decentralized
MC
21:26
Matthew Croughan
No, but the mining infrastructure, the pools, are.
MF
21:26
Mr Flintstone
and even when it was in terms of hash rate distribution, it was dos-able
MC
21:26
Matthew Croughan
They're the most centralized aspect of bitcoin by far, but they're still good enough to prevent this.
IP
21:26
I P
In reply to this message
Voice message
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
00:29, 70.1 KB
MF
21:27
Mr Flintstone
the only reason is because pools operators hadn’t yet upgraded their defenses
MC
21:27
Matthew Croughan
E.G backups upon backups to redirect the mining domains to.
21:27
because they have a financial incentive not to go down.
S
21:27
Sy
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😂, 36.1 KB
21:27
It's not that simple but comes close to the answer - but usually for a new coin you just startup a server and run the pool software until the pros enter the scene
MC
21:27
Matthew Croughan
Those big pools are more fragmented than they seem because of their local infrastructure.
21:28
They have plenty of backup servers in the case of any ddos, it will not be possible.
21:28
if they're malevolent, they can do a lot of things, but a simple ddos will do absolutely nothing.
S
21:28
Sy
didnt we just establish that veo is running with around 18 TH total net
MF
S
21:28
Sy
haha i have no clue either
Z
21:28
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/blob/master/src/forth/merge_sort.fs
I am trying to add lots of comments to the example smart contracts, so it will be easier to get started with programming them.
I am trying to add lots of comments to the example smart contracts, so it will be easier to get started with programming them.
MF
21:28
Mr Flintstone
that you can’t dos chains?
S
21:28
Sy
talking to himself i guess
MC
21:28
Matthew Croughan
Oh, that something like LWMA does not present a problem.
21:29
And that an old difficulty algo doesn't make much sense, Sy told me that it "helps against ddos"
21:29
which I didn't understand how a more modern difficulty algo wouldn't.
MF
S
21:29
Sy
yeah and your answer to that is "you cant ddos pools" so you averted the answer away from the diff adjust where it originated because your arguments dont work
MF
21:29
Mr Flintstone
it was not chosen without thought
MC
21:29
Matthew Croughan
I'm just asking why, rather than "prevents ddos"
IP
21:29
I P
In reply to this message
old school diff adjustment algo does not present a problem in any way
S
21:30
Sy
btc is still using it...
MC
21:30
Matthew Croughan
In reply to this message
Well it's less responsive I get that in Veo the mining doesn't matter much at all, it's just a basic mechanism, the prediction market is what matters
Z
21:30
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/zack-retargeting
I might have invented LWMA
I was aware of options like this, and choose bitcoin's strategy instead.
If the difficulty changes too quickly, then it is easier to cause destructive oscillations.
I might have invented LWMA
I was aware of options like this, and choose bitcoin's strategy instead.
If the difficulty changes too quickly, then it is easier to cause destructive oscillations.
MC
21:31
perfect, even, without those problems of being able to time and manipulate them.
S
21:31
Sy
still ddos...
MC
21:31
Matthew Croughan
Since I've actually seen people doing that to make a better avg profit on other coins that use LWMA
Z
21:31
Zack
LWMA is really bad. it should not be used.
S
21:32
Sy
finally...next block
Z
21:32
Zack
because the difficulty can change too quickly. you can cause oscillations in the difficulty to destroy the value of the blockchain.
MC
21:32
Matthew Croughan
So there is no solution to make difficulty more responsive without sacrificing something?
S
21:32
Sy
as said earlier...
Z
21:32
Zack
correct, it is a tradeoff. being too responsive makes you vulnerable to difficulty oscillations.
MC
21:34
Matthew Croughan
Well it certainly prevents profitability from nicehash attacks.
Z
21:34
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/blob/master/src/forth/merge_sort.fs
I am thinking of hosting a chalang competition. To pay whoever can solve some problem optimally.
I am thinking of hosting a chalang competition. To pay whoever can solve some problem optimally.
MC
21:36
Matthew Croughan
Is there a calculator that allows you to manually input diff?
IP
21:37
I P
In reply to this message
you can pretty much do the calculations with a simple excel spreadsheet...
S
22:07
Sy
In reply to this message
what for exactly? there might be a different answer to what you are trying
MC
22:07
Matthew Croughan
In reply to this message
Oh just to calculate what the profitability will be when it's back to normal
S
22:07
Sy
well...old price was 700-900$
22:07
next diff adjust is 17% down
А
S
22:08
Sy
target diff at current block speed is about / 5.76
22:08
so unchanged price at normal diff is current earnings * 5.76
22:09
but imho those calculcations are pointless, diff + price are factors you wont ever be able to predict
22:09
In reply to this message
long term or after diff adjust?
i think with the fix of lost txs the coin became more trustworthy and weak hands are almost done selling but nothing major short term
i think with the fix of lost txs the coin became more trustworthy and weak hands are almost done selling but nothing major short term
22:10
imho it will take another 1-2 month to get back to normal but as said earlier, no real way to tell, just gut feeling
IP
22:10
I P
In reply to this message
look at bitcoin price. most buyer have their money in crypto so if crypto overall goes up- veo price will go up too
S
22:10
Sy
2 month is 2 more adjusts, maybe slighly higher price, some more miners....its a mix
22:10
true because buying power is low right now
А
22:12
Андрюхин
In reply to this message
I think after 2 diff adjustments china will come back and raise diff to the moon again
S
22:12
Sy
na, 2 isnt enough