Bitcoin's retargetting is optimized for the case where the S curve is a flat horizontal line.
Which is fairly accurate for a blockchain with Asics.
The gpu curve is very S-like because miners can switch blockchains.
Amoveo ♥🧿
Previous messages
Next messages
17 July 2018
Z
22:28
Zack
MN
22:30
Matthew Niemerg
why is this function not linear? Or are you missing the difficulty factor dimension?
Z
22:31
Zack
If one blockchain is 1% more profitable to mine than any other, more than 1% of the hash power will switch to your blockchain.
22:31
If you are 1% less profitable than anyone else, you lose almost all the miners.
AK
22:32
A K
In theory yes, in practice ppl mine ETC and BCH still...
22:33
So it's a bit nuanced
Z
22:33
Zack
Right. That is why I say it is an s curve rather than a step function.
22:34
It has to do with switching costs and miner preferences.
22:41
So lets say we target a range with a factor of 2. from 8 minutes to 16 minutes for example.
How many blocks should we average to estimate the current block period?
Should we use the window method (as we currently are) or switch to exponential weighted moving average?
How many blocks should we average to estimate the current block period?
Should we use the window method (as we currently are) or switch to exponential weighted moving average?
MN
22:43
Matthew Niemerg
right -- but strictly as a function that compares hash power to block rewards of only one network, this is linear
22:43
are you saying that this is rewards relative to multiple networks?
Z
22:46
Zack
If you are buying gigahashes of work and paying $1 per gigahash, you would attract more hashpower in comparison to if you only paid $0.01 per gigahash.
22:48
As blockchain designers we don't have direct control over hash power. we can only control the block reward.
This graph is made from the blockchain designers perspective.
We are controlling the block reward to indirectly optimize the hash power.
This graph is made from the blockchain designers perspective.
We are controlling the block reward to indirectly optimize the hash power.
22:50
This is in the context of designing a new retargetting algorithm.
22:58
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/8zltth/timestamp_attack_question/
Hopefully someone from ethereum can explain the weird 900 second timestamp rule.
Hopefully someone from ethereum can explain the weird 900 second timestamp rule.
AK
22:59
A K
won’t nodes reject it?
Z
23:01
Zack
https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/blob/c02254611f218f43cbb07517ca8e5d00fd6d6d75/Block-Protocol-2.0.md
search for "900" on this page.
search for "900" on this page.
23:03
I wonder if every timestamp is 900 seconds off of when the block was actually mined.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
23:42
Deleted Account
Settling on a difficulty such that the block time is steered towards a desired value should be a matter of classic control theory
23:43
Which filters are selected and if oscillations may occur should be straightforward to realize once put into this mindset
23:44
I believe an IIR (exponentioal) filter is less performant than an FIR (average) filter, and i dont think there are very good reasons to select one over the other performance wise
23:45
But then, as long as the system has sufficient performance there should be no reason to optimize this
23:47
The problem imho is that miners on gpus have low switching costs and at the same time Amoveo is still very small in comparison to the amount of GPUs out there
23:47
Better to focus on long term solutions: eg building the ASIC
23:49
That would yield very high switching costs, until someone designed a multi algo asic
23:56
I believe you could design the feedback algorithn for difficulty to get any result you wanted, wrt settling time and how the difficulty varies with differing hashrate
S
18 July 2018
Z
01:18
Zack
In reply to this message
This probably isn't the case.
The users will change their behavior if the rules change.
It is a mechanism design problem.
The users will change their behavior if the rules change.
It is a mechanism design problem.
[
01:28
[Riki]
Would changing the maximum one-time difficulty adjustment from current level (~17%) to lets say 25% or more be a simple effective change?
MF
01:52
Mr Flintstone
56 more blocks until cheap oracles :)
01:53
question oracles that is
N
01:53
NM$L
btc pump
Z
02:04
Zack
If we were going to have an Amoveo meetup, which city would we put it in?
А
02:06
Андрюхин
Belleville, NJ.
02:06
it's 5 minutes to me
02:12
Deleted Account
Berlin
02:20
Deleted Account
Kristiansand, Norway :-P
S
02:21
Scrypte
Canada all the way.
02:21
Deleted Account
Canada all the way
OK
02:21
O K
Berlin
02:21
Deleted Account
SF, NYC, Boston?
OK
02:22
O K
Buenos AIres
[
02:22
[Riki]
Europe
02:22
Deleted Account
Shanghai!
02:22
Singapore
OK
02:22
O K
Europe is a big ass city
02:22
Deleted Account
lol
02:23
earth is a bigger city
J
02:51
✌🏻
OK
02:54
O K
:'D
Deleted invited Deleted Account
OK
03:25
O K
Discord down for anyone?
03:25
Deleted Account
hello
OK
03:26
O K
Hello
03:26
Deleted Account
any wallet recomended for amoveo?
OK
03:27
O K
You can use the light wallet from Zack's node, or another trusted node, all of which are linked here: veoscan.io, or you can use the metamask-like chrome extension from amoveobook.com
ES
AS
Z
03:59
1 - New Jersey
3 - Berlin
1 - Kristiansand, Norway
1 - Buenos Aires
1 - Shanghai
1 - Singapore
1 - NYC
Berlin is in the lead
3 - Berlin
1 - Kristiansand, Norway
1 - Buenos Aires
1 - Shanghai
1 - Singapore
1 - NYC
Berlin is in the lead
I
04:02
Iridescence
Discord down due to Google GCP issues
AS
04:17
Aizen Sou
And? If they only managed to theoretically get more 5% from a blockchain with 12s block time, what could the attacker do with 10min block time coin like VEO ?
OK
04:19
O K
I can't believe we're all finally gonna meet in berlin!
J
OK
04:20
O K
schuss
AS
04:22
Aizen Sou
Okay forget about all the theories u said above, I understand u r trying to create the perfect blockchain ( which is impossible). Zack please tell me what do u think if we manage to get back the normal block time from 10mins (which should be in 2-3 months if nothing changes), and the Chinese miners are back, bring diff to 10x and leave again. What would we do ?
04:29
Deleted Account
Add Oslo, Norway to the list! Us Noncense guys will buy you a beer or five
OK
04:30
Deleted Account
But Berlin would be really cool, could have it at c-base
04:34
Anyone attending https://sfblockchainweek.io btw? I’ll be there all week
S
05:15
Sy
Berlin +1
05:40
Deleted Account
That’s why we’re buying the beer
05:48
Deleted Account
I had a short chat with a friend from university who works with ASIC design. They could do this but the price was estimated closer to 1+ million USD. So that requires a lot of up front sales to be done to miners. He also recommend starting out with FPGAs but looking at Bitcoins history, there is not a lot og potential there. Nothing new basically :)
05:49
Also he thought it might be difficult to attract production facilities for smaller batches
05:53
I think the missing link in the ASIC puzzle is 1: is making an ASIC profitable at current Veo valuation and 2: find someone who will organize pre-sales in order to start the engineering process. I believe there might be money to be made here, but I could not manage to pull this off in addition to my day job
06:07
Deleted Account
Buenos Aires +1
AS
06:31
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
At current performance of VEO, forget about ASICs. Soon all big GPU miners will leave because they couldn't mine that long for a loss. Zack probably has to reset the chain because it will be stuck.
IP
06:33
crypto is going to moon soon
06:33
which means people with btc and eth will look into cheap hot alts
06:34
once i unload my heavy altcoin bags i will use eth and btc to buy more veo
AS
06:34
Aizen Sou
Bro, i'm basically telling myself since months and stay silent to Zack's ignorance until I couldn't anymorr
06:35
I feel like an idiot now, after many times I defended for Zack when people told bad about him. And now he really failed my trust
IP
I
06:50
Iridescence
I haven't been keeping up with VEO news - what's the latest going on?
06:51
Block times are super long now? Is it because the large Chinese miners have gone away?
OK
I
06:52
Iridescence
What's the diff now?
OK
06:53
O K
terahashes per block: 39829
I
06:54
Iridescence
Did the large miners leave immediately after the diff adjustment?
IP
06:57
yep* and dumped the price
I
06:58
Iridescence
Is veopool.pw a Chinese pool? I see that they have been getting most of the blocks
OK
06:58
O K
That's Sy's pool
IP
06:58
I P
nope, it is sy
I
06:58
Iridescence
Ok
OK
06:58
O K
The miners here have been doing charity work 🙌
I
06:58
Iridescence
Haha
IP
I
06:58
Iridescence
What's the recommended miner to use now?
OK
06:58
O K
The CN miners, sorry to say, didn't stay 5 minutes
IP
OK
IP
06:59
I P
there is an opensource rather good one, also veominer closed source
OK
06:59
O K
There's also veoCL that was open sourced
I
06:59
Iridescence
Haha nice name, amoveominerman
OK
06:59
It's nvidia only
IP
OK
I
07:00
Iridescence
That's always been my concern - diff is easily adjusted up but would take too long to adjust down if large miners leave
OK
I
07:00
Iridescence
So diff will probably decrease during the next adjustment
07:01
At the current hashrate when will the next adjustment happen?
IP
07:01
I P
In reply to this message
well diff will start to go up once buyer will ine up for veo. right now we need weak hands to dump their small holdings at exchange
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
10:27
Deleted Account
Good day
S
12:23
Sebsebzen
Berlin
BA
16:19
Buzz Aldrin
What is the best Nvidia miner on Windows 10?
17:17
Deleted Account
Just to clarify: veocl (the open source miner) runs on radeon cards
S
21:42
Sy
Hence the Name, taken from openCL
Y S invited Y S
Y S invited Zvk_bali Vladimir, Deleted Account, Deleted Account, Deleted Account and Deleted Account
19 July 2018
M
00:05
Mike
Qtrade looks good, seems to be reputable
Deleted invited Deleted Account
[
Z
00:31
Zack
Isaac Cook did responsibly disclose a critical bug, so it seems like he doesn't intend to cheat us.
M
00:36
Mike
In reply to this message
Besides what Isaac has already done, it is a bit of work to implement a coin like Amoveo. Especially when it’s almost crippled right now. He basically got paid for the listing with the bounty but that didn’t seem to be his intention. The other coins on his exchange are interesting projects as well so it seems he is discerning about what he lists. I don’t hold any other of the coins on qtrade but I can mildly vouch for them.
OK
00:38
O K
Qtrade developments strike me as positive as well, I haven't sent anything in though
[
00:40
[Riki]
Thanks guys
M
00:40
Mike
I’m waiting for the sell side to stack a little and a positive review from Sy before sending in my BTC.
DY
00:51
Demi Yilmaz
Istanbul +1
S
01:20
Sy
Veo got credited fine, odly No one is buying for 400 😁
OK
01:21
O K
How long does it take to send BTC?
S
04:28
Sy
Delete
Z
07:22
Zack
For cryptocurrency code to be secure, not only does it need to be impossible to cheat, the default strategy programmed into the full node needs to be a nash equilibrium.
It needs to be impossible to earn a profit by modifying any part of the full node consensus mechanism.
Currently if you are using geth as a mining pool, it is programmed not to build on a block unless that block's timestamp occurred before 15 seconds in the future.
It seems to me that this is similar to the "guess 2/3rds of the median" game, except the mining pools are trying to guess this value:
median of everyone else's choice - (D seconds)
D is a number of seconds such that the probability of the ethereum network finding a block in that period E,
(1-E)*(how much more profitable the lower difficulty block would be) = 1
If a block has a timestamp before (15 + D) seconds in the future, it is more profitable to mine on this block than it's parent.
D is a pure function of:
* how much the difficulty will change by depending on if we mine on one block or the other.
* the block period.
So every mining pool can calculate the same D.
They are all trying to guess (median of everyone else's guesses - D).
It is my understanding that the expected behavior in a game like this is for everyone to backtrack their clocks more and more each round, exponentially.
The fundamental issue is that Ethereum changes the mining difficulty in 10 seconds intervals. So it is a step function, if the timestamp changes by a single micro second, it changes the profitability of mining on that block.
The step function shape is causing the game of guess 2/3rds of the median.
If we use a continuous function instead, and make sure the slope never exceeds a certain maximum, then we can avoid this problem.
But, using a continuous function to determine the difficulty of mining has a different problem. This means that the mining pool is incentivized to update the problem being worked on as frequently as possible, because a later timestamp is always more profitable.
This rewards certain miners over others, and would be bad.
It needs to be impossible to earn a profit by modifying any part of the full node consensus mechanism.
Currently if you are using geth as a mining pool, it is programmed not to build on a block unless that block's timestamp occurred before 15 seconds in the future.
It seems to me that this is similar to the "guess 2/3rds of the median" game, except the mining pools are trying to guess this value:
median of everyone else's choice - (D seconds)
D is a number of seconds such that the probability of the ethereum network finding a block in that period E,
(1-E)*(how much more profitable the lower difficulty block would be) = 1
If a block has a timestamp before (15 + D) seconds in the future, it is more profitable to mine on this block than it's parent.
D is a pure function of:
* how much the difficulty will change by depending on if we mine on one block or the other.
* the block period.
So every mining pool can calculate the same D.
They are all trying to guess (median of everyone else's guesses - D).
It is my understanding that the expected behavior in a game like this is for everyone to backtrack their clocks more and more each round, exponentially.
The fundamental issue is that Ethereum changes the mining difficulty in 10 seconds intervals. So it is a step function, if the timestamp changes by a single micro second, it changes the profitability of mining on that block.
The step function shape is causing the game of guess 2/3rds of the median.
If we use a continuous function instead, and make sure the slope never exceeds a certain maximum, then we can avoid this problem.
But, using a continuous function to determine the difficulty of mining has a different problem. This means that the mining pool is incentivized to update the problem being worked on as frequently as possible, because a later timestamp is always more profitable.
This rewards certain miners over others, and would be bad.
07:24
Ethereum's guarantee that a timestamp is accurate is heavily dependent on blocks with later timestamps being more profitable to mine.
07:25
Currently we take the median of a large number of blocks, and trust that >50% of hashpower is providing good timestamps.
Using medians like this limits how quickly we can adapt to changing hashpower. It takes too long to do medians.
This is why I am researching Ethereum's faster method.
Using medians like this limits how quickly we can adapt to changing hashpower. It takes too long to do medians.
This is why I am researching Ethereum's faster method.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
11:50
Zack
https://ethresear.ch/t/highlighting-a-problem-stability-of-the-equilibrium-of-minimum-timestamp-enforcement/2257
Looks like Vitalik is already aware of this potential issue in Ethereum.
Looks like Vitalik is already aware of this potential issue in Ethereum.
z
Z
11:56
Zack
I was working for Aeternity. I wrote their minimum viable product.
They committed wage theft against me.
They committed wage theft against me.
z
12:00
zeThrouzz
yeah I read that article before
12:00
Crypto space is full greedy people
12:01
i don't remember your exact story but look like they changed terms with you.
12:01
So how good is Amoveo doing? Are you working alone on it>
12:01
?
B
13:29
Ben
+1 for berlin
IP
14:51
I guess amoveo is doing good
15:21
Deleted Account
I believe the problem with ETH is that the difficulty of the parent block should have been used to verify a header. Fudging timestamps for difficulty changes has little value if you are not the one to make the next block
15:57
Deleted Account
f
fbgjgjyjh 19.07.2018 15:54:36
go to my bio
B
16:03
Ben
on fourth thouth it is bullshit if you take into account how big the ETH Network is ;)
s
16:18
In reply to this message
Why sha256? Don't you worry about wujihan? There's no point in doing that...
16:21
Even if it's sha256, it's not as good as gpu affinities, what do you think about aeternity cuckoo algorithms
Deleted invited Deleted Account
IP
S
17:22
yay
17:22
I also asked about cukoo already
17:22
he said he doesnt like it at all
17:23
Zack wants ASICS
IP
17:23
I P
ASICs are good
A
17:23
Aries
Agreed
IP
17:25
I P
gpu miners are too easy to switch and abuse switching
A
17:42
Aaron
@sebsebzen I found this interesting https://www.reddit.com/r/grincoin/comments/8i7vck/grin_has_morphed_from_asicresistant_to/?st=jjsd5zjf&sh=94ddda7f
@kitty123 What about centralization?
@kitty123 What about centralization?
IP
17:44
I P
bitcoin has asics. bitcoin is decentralized. Well i would say it is the closest coin to the abstract decentralization
17:48
asics are good because you don't overpay gpu miners who can switch coins/algos in a matter of seconds
17:48
Deleted Account
Amoveo should switch to some Blake2b algorithm that is even more ASIC's friendly
IP
17:48
I P
In reply to this message
you want to have your own asics and your own algo and not reuse from other coins
17:49
Deleted Account
True 😄 It was mostly because then I could use my worthless SIA miner for something good
17:55
There are mutiple versions that can be used though, that can not be hashed with SIA or Decred miners
18:04
Deleted Account
The ASIC should have been Amoveo only, or perhaps using a coin that had a very small market share compared to Amoveo (for all future)
18:05
To stabilize mining
OK
20:03
Deleted Account
I won't for people who pre-ordered the Obelisk SIA miner
OK
20:04
O K
You already received it?
20:04
Or what are you anticipating?
20:05
Deleted Account
No they are still being built, but they were 2 months late with lower specs than was promised. Oh well
OK
20:05
O K
Bummer :/
[
20:32
[Riki]
2 months late aka 2 months mining before selling
20:33
😃
IP
20:39
I P
20:39
well exchange works. some cheap veo on sale though
MF
20:50
Mr Flintstone
how many btc confirms for qtrade?
OK
IP
21:02
I P
well you can send and check. i don't remember, but not many. veo confirms was 20, they changed to 6
MF
21:05
Mr Flintstone
oh looks like we hard forked
21:06
im p sure we should have cheap question oracles now
IP
MF
21:07
Mr Flintstone
planned hard fork
21:07
lol
21:07
27500 was the oracle fee split height
IP
21:07
I P
look like i need to update my node
20 July 2018
Sol Mate invited Sol Mate
lw
IP
Deleted invited Deleted Account
kriskroos joined group by link from Group
k
14:35
kriskroos
I don't see total supply any where
14:36
Circulating is shown as 34,483
14:36
But no total supply
IP
k
14:37
kriskroos
That's fine. That will show the circulating supply no?
14:37
But what about max supply
14:37
Also doesn't this project have a website
IP
k
IP
k
14:40
kriskroos
Not the github link man.
14:40
The website link
M
14:41
Minieep21
There is no website
IP
14:41
I P
github is the website. it cointains all the info
k
14:41
kriskroos
Tx.
14:42
😒
DY
14:42
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Sorry man, this project is still really early that no one created a website for it. We only have really really early adopters here.
k
14:43
kriskroos
Is there no info on what this project does & why it's being traded for such a high price? I know its an exchange. But is this similar to augur?
IP
14:45
I P
In reply to this message
well aeternity has 0.5 bln market cap and it is still on testnet. this is basically better version of aeternity on mainnet😂😂
DY
k
14:46
Plus a couple of my friends were talking about it
IP
k
14:49
kriskroos
Lol.
14:49
In reply to this message
This project is completely different to aeternity tho if I'm not wrong.
IP
k
DY
14:51
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
What was zacks role in augur? As I recall he implemented poc or something?
IP
k
15:04
kriskroos
In reply to this message
Yeah. The whitepaper is on github too lol. This is what a zero marketing pure dev project looks like lol.
18:23
Deleted Account
@nreddy7 as far as I can tell Zack was on the Augur team, part of the Æternity ICO, then left and made Amoveo. Amoveo is most likely the best implementation of prediction markets of the three at this time
Z
18:29
Zack
In reply to this message
I wrote the minimum viable product for both augur and aeternity.
S
18:31
Sy
just link him the docs...
A
19:05
Aries
19:05
Scarcity is King
S
Axopoa invited Axopoa
Deleted invited Deleted Account
fusan invited fusan
OK
23:41
Just wondering
21 July 2018
Z
00:01
Zack
no, I have not.
Z
00:31
Zack
I found a few more vulnerabilities in chalang today. I patched them up and am syncing the new code to make sure it works.
JM
Z
01:36
Zack
I updated chalang.
This will prevent certain denial of service attacks against mining pools.
This will prevent certain denial of service attacks against mining pools.
01:37
@potat_o and @Simon3456 should update.
01:42
./rebar3 upgrade
OK
01:49
O K
Okay, it's done
Z
01:49
Zack
great, thanks
M
02:15
Mike
Qtrade is broken for me at the moment, can anyone log in
MF
03:07
Mr Flintstone
I think someone in the discord is having a similar problem
M
04:10
Mike
Still having the issue, just wanna know if it’s a problem on my end. It let me create an account and confirmed my smaller test deposit but when I tried to log in an hour later when I was back from lunch it wouldn’t work.
M
04:50
Mike
Anyone else have a sneaking suspicion that Cryptopia will list VEO?
OK
M
04:55
Mike
In reply to this message
They’ll want the trading fees. Amoveo is (one of) the best project in crypto. Topia has done it with other coins. I’m assuming they have been mining it as well (or mined when it was realistic).
04:55
Judging by the difficulty to list I’d imagine they’d spend about a month to get it right.
MF
05:09
Mr Flintstone
that would be great
05:09
the more liquidity we get can for veo the better
05:09
we can get *
B
05:20
Ben
topia will never list VEO
05:21
they are a bunch of greedy and technical untalented guys
05:21
i see no way how topia can List Amoveo
M
05:34
Mike
In reply to this message
To be clear, I don’t want to be listed on Topia, it’s a graveyard. But yeah, they are greedy and know they can market make and force their own liquidity for dumping what they’ve mined. I find it hard to believe the most technically versed in crypto (like successful exchange owners) don’t have a sharp eye on Amoveo. It’s too obvious of a home run with Zack being the mind behind both Augur and Aeternity. If VEO ICO’d it’d already be on Bittrex or Binance.
05:36
Zack wouldn’t be patiently accumulating his dev reward if he wasn’t completely confident in his work. He would’ve ICO’d and got his money and run like so many other developers.
DY
05:38
Demi Yilmaz
Anyone here worked with HSM & Bolos before?
05:41
Deleted Account
@mike i believe he mentioned that he did not believe in ICOs because they would not motivate the team during development phase. This is of course true and an example of what it seems to me his concern of getting things right rather than quick money
IP
16:46
Deleted Account
what would be a good incentive structure for long term growth?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
[
19:49
eventually relevant for veoex
S
20:30
Sebsebzen
Nice
Cryptosaures joined group by link from Group
C
21:37
Cryptosaures
Hi whats the website
IP
22:38
Deleted Account
If anyobe thought hiring lots of erlang devs was strange, look at this: https://blog.aeternity.com/4000-ae-bounty-be-part-of-%C3%A6ternitys-art-project-1ca410756f68
22:38
Is this what the ICO investors paid for??
Z
23:26
Zack
In reply to this message
haha. $7000 to graffiti an abandoned building.
Well, I did spend an hour making Amoveo themed poetry. So I can understand investing in art.
Well, I did spend an hour making Amoveo themed poetry. So I can understand investing in art.
23:37
$7k is only for the location. They are also going to hire painters to climb up on tall scaffolding and paint 11k square meters of mural. 😂
23:48
I wonder how much it costs per square meter. I see online people charging $100+ per square meter to make a mural. They also say that they spend 2 hours per square meter. I am guessing AE's painters will spend much less time per square meter.
1 liter of paint can cover about 4 square meters, when you are painting outdoors.
The size of their painting would take 3000 liters of paint.
Cheap paint is about $4 per liter.
So the paint costs about $11k.
I assume labor will cost more than paint.
1 liter of paint can cover about 4 square meters, when you are painting outdoors.
The size of their painting would take 3000 liters of paint.
Cheap paint is about $4 per liter.
So the paint costs about $11k.
I assume labor will cost more than paint.
23:50
Shipping 3 tons of paint could be expensive too.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
23:56
Deleted Account
Hi, Zack, I’m following your project since quite a time and also the ae project. Just read through the last 20 posts here and want to answer: If market cap is 500mm and because of the PR they attract +1% on exchanges it’s a 5mm+, 20% of this (what I guess they own) is 1mm, if the whole thing cost less than that, they make profit.
23:57
If you look at listed companies, not even in crypto, they do that all the time.
22 July 2018
Z
00:05
Zack
So they hired the Erlang masters for PR reasons, yes I agree that is probably true.
SS
00:16
S S
Do you think they'll be any good after mainnet launch?
00:55
Deleted Account
Can we set a bounty using the Dev Reward funds for creating an asic? There's sufficient funds in there to incentivize parties to compete to be the first to build one for Amoveo. Since these hashrate fluctuations are so problematic and ASICs are a main part of the solution I would consider ASIC fab eligible for a significant amount of the Reward
01:04
One could argue that the incentive to build an ASIC in the first place is that the manufacturer gets to mine with it first. Valid. But if we add in the Dev reward we can use it for leverage and as part of the agreement - mandate that miners get sold to the public as well.
Z
01:05
Zack
Using a dominant assurance contract to incentivize the sale of Asics could work.
I would participate if I expect to make a profit.
I would participate if I expect to make a profit.
01:05
How about a dominant assurance contract to write "Amoveo" on top of the AE mural?
01:08
Deleted Account
Zack yes, maybe they also took the decision to hire some of the best erlang developers because of Pr. But even if it takes way longer for them to finish their code (you are a genius and just very experienced in blockchains) I think they will try their best and publish a full node implementation that works. At the end all is open source, so if they do something good, you could also use it for amoveo. I think blockchain should not be against each other but with each other at this stage. This is only a view on engineering noting else. I don’t want to talk about „politics“
Z
01:11
Zack
They did commit wage theft against me, threaten to kill me, and physically assault me.
01:18
This is not the place to advertise for anything other than amoveo.
01:28
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/progress_reports/June_2018.md
Here is a comparison between Amoveo and many other blockchains working on prediction market technology.
Here is a comparison between Amoveo and many other blockchains working on prediction market technology.
E
01:30
Emin
In reply to this message
Ok, I agree. Also on the message before. But technical things and personal things are two different topics. I’m only talking about tech.
03:29
Deleted Account
I think that even other blockchains being open source, it would be quite unlikely to borrow code between projects. The work in building a blockchain is more IMHO about selecting the correct mix of theory/techniques/mindshare to back the end goal. Implementing the code is not the biggest problem
Z
03:33
Zack
Ethereum has a retargeting scheme that is slightly broken. Eventually all the mining pools will start back-tracking their clocks, and it could break consensus.
But this problem has not happened yet. It wont happen until mining pools start customizing their full node software to increase the profit.
We could copy Ethereum's design, and watch ethereum closely for when this starts to happen.
When Ethereum starts breaking, we can revert to our slow and safe method.
We can set it up so that the reward for adjusting the clock is like 1/10th as much as Ethereum, that way we can be sure this failure mode will happen to Ethereum before Amoveo.
This would give us a good block time for months, possibly years.
Maybe it would last long enough until we have ASIC miners, and then we wont need it any more. With ASICS we can safely use Bitcoin's retargeting method.
But this problem has not happened yet. It wont happen until mining pools start customizing their full node software to increase the profit.
We could copy Ethereum's design, and watch ethereum closely for when this starts to happen.
When Ethereum starts breaking, we can revert to our slow and safe method.
We can set it up so that the reward for adjusting the clock is like 1/10th as much as Ethereum, that way we can be sure this failure mode will happen to Ethereum before Amoveo.
This would give us a good block time for months, possibly years.
Maybe it would last long enough until we have ASIC miners, and then we wont need it any more. With ASICS we can safely use Bitcoin's retargeting method.
OK
J
03:49
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
+1
[
dr1pac joined group by link from Group
Z
04:00
Zack
Amoveo is 10 000x less expensive than Augur for a typical bet: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/betting_fees.md
04:34
Deleted Account
Im thinking maybe i should start writing an ETH mining pool fudging the timestamp fir 5% reduction in difficulty. Obvious business case, minimal effort
Z
06:08
Zack
I can help you calculate the optimal amount, it probably isn't 5%
06:09
there are probably other ways to modify the consensus strategy that are more profitable
M
06:25
Mike
I personally don’t mind the slow block time. At such a high price per unit we’ve eliminated most of the damaging speculating crowd. I’d even be in favor moving the decimal place to the left, as you’ve discussed Zack. Until the tech is perfect I see no reason to cater to those who want to do short term speculating.
06:25
I don’t want to spam the trading channel, qtrade is working great, sellers should 100% be listing there until there’s an alternative.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
IP
15:26
Deleted Account
Were not breaking ETH, just optimizing within the consencus rules...
IP
16:01
I P
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
📞, 21.7 KB
A
16:01
Aries
lol
IP
16:04
I P
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
🐱, 20.9 KB
B
17:31
Deleted Account
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
📉, 19.4 KB
18:31
Deleted Account
The beta looks fine to me. Did not get around to depositing yet :-/
DY
19:47
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Its running. It says private beta, so only selected few can test it. Send me the email u registered with so I can activate ur account too
B
19:50
Ben
i am in the beta
19:50
but no deposit got credited yet
19:50
so it is a problem in general
DY
20:16
In reply to this message
Lol I didn't realize you were jade.. I was looking for another account 😄
Found you, checking the problem.
Found you, checking the problem.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Santiago invited Santiago
S
22:27
Santiago
Hello group!
OK
23:36
O K
Hello
f
23:36
fusan
veo hi veo
23 July 2018
01:12
Deleted Account
What happened to Augur .. +30%😅
Deleted joined group by link from Group
10:18
Deleted Account
BTW why it's impossible to create ERC-20 alternative on Amoveo?
Z
10:23
Zack
Amoveo smart contracts don't have on-chain state. So you can't keep track of account balances.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
K
12:29
Kale
hello,bro
12:29
who can tell me the veo's price?
MF
12:50
Mr Flintstone
230-260 on qtrade
IP
B
Deleted invited Deleted Account
17:59
tried to
make prod-clean then start over, same
18:00
could not get block 27165 from peer
block:height().
26915
api:height().
27617
block:height().
26915
api:height().
27617
18:06
this is wierd, my cureent height is 26915, why it tried to download 27165
B
18:15
Ben
updated rebar?
18:16
Deleted Account
how to update rebar? thnaks
Z
19:49
Zack
In reply to this message
Use rebar to update the dependencies.
First turn it off.
Then turn it on.
First turn it off.
./rebar3 upgradeThen turn it on.
DY
IP
19:59
I P
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
👍, 46.5 KB
MF
20:44
Mr Flintstone
nice
B
21:14
Ben
good job
Deleted invited Deleted Account
21:36
Deleted Account
👍
B
22:03
Ben
first trade just occured
22:03
so now there are 2 Exchanges, not bad
S
22:04
who is running qtrade again?
OK
22:04
O K
Are you on discord Seb?
22:05
I'd ask in their channel
22:05
(on Amoveo #qtrade-exchange)
S
22:07
Sebsebzen
ok
22:07
thx
DY
AK
Z
22:43
Zack
OK approved one of my recent ideas.
It will take some time to program the update, and then after it is programmed we will need to discuss it again as a community.
It is best that we take our time and avoid risks.
A bad update could cause a lot of damage.
It will take some time to program the update, and then after it is programmed we will need to discuss it again as a community.
It is best that we take our time and avoid risks.
A bad update could cause a lot of damage.
22:45
The plan is to use a similar retargetting strategy as Ethereum, but to set it up so that the advantage of adjusting your clock is less than 1/10th of what you would get for adjusting your clock in Ethereum.
That way Ethereum is like an early warning system for us. If Ethereum's timestamps break, then we still have some time before ours will break.
That way Ethereum is like an early warning system for us. If Ethereum's timestamps break, then we still have some time before ours will break.
OK
22:46
O K
Aizen Gonzalo @Simon3456 W @Jbreezy0 @RikiPedala @jujurko can confirm, (these are the people I remember showing support, but don't want to speak directly for them), I think there is some degree of consensus for this change
AK
22:47
A K
Thanks, folks! Kudos.
[
OK
22:47
O K
I'm happy as long as it's a Work In Progress
22:48
Better safe than sorry
[
22:48
[Riki]
Of course
G
22:48
Ghadras
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😊, 34.1 KB
Z
22:57
Zack
There are some more decisions that need to be made for the implementation.
We need to decide how exactly we will create the factor of 10 difference in the incentive to adjust the clock.
Maybe we should use exponential weightings of block times with N=10, so the most recent block only accounts for 1/10th of the current blockrate estimate.
We probably need some sort of dampener. Before we discussed targeting a range of block times instead of one specific block time. I guess I will use this for dampening.
We need to decide how exactly we will create the factor of 10 difference in the incentive to adjust the clock.
Maybe we should use exponential weightings of block times with N=10, so the most recent block only accounts for 1/10th of the current blockrate estimate.
We probably need some sort of dampener. Before we discussed targeting a range of block times instead of one specific block time. I guess I will use this for dampening.
22:59
The retargetting algorithm is for both the full node and the light node, which makes this update more difficult. I will have to build a testing framework to verify the light node still works after the update.
AK
22:59
A K
Do you consider this potential "TS malleability" to be more dangerous for amoveo than for eth?
Z
23:02
Zack
what is "TS malleability"?
23:03
oh, timestamp attacks
23:03
It is worse for Eth. They have bigger block rewards, there is more incentive for mining pools to modify geth to make more profit.
23:06
Although, Amoveo is probably a lot easier to modify than Geth, which makes it a worse for Amoveo.
But Amoveo's blocks are much slower, which makes us more secure against this problem.
The exponential curve is already very slow. Having 200x slower blocks means the curve is 200x slower for us.
But Amoveo's blocks are much slower, which makes us more secure against this problem.
The exponential curve is already very slow. Having 200x slower blocks means the curve is 200x slower for us.
AK
23:07
A K
ok, so nothing inherent in amoveo makes it an easier target. Than I'd personally vote for just taking the ETH algo AS IS.
S
23:07
Sebsebzen
Zack will the retarget update also be a good time to change the decimals (aka. mVEO)
23:07
?
23:08
and also will the retarget update increase inflation?
Z
23:08
Zack
In reply to this message
That is an option too.
If different people want different things, then I guess I could program our different choices. That way we can test them out side by side and figure out which would be best.
If different people want different things, then I guess I could program our different choices. That way we can test them out side by side and figure out which would be best.
23:10
In reply to this message
how numbers are displayed is not a part of the consensus mechanism. That is part of the light node, and it is part of each website.
23:11
In reply to this message
our target is 175 Veo produced per day.
Currently we are producing around 30 per day.
Currently we are producing around 30 per day.
S
23:11
Sebsebzen
that's quite a big change
OK
S
Z
23:12
Zack
In reply to this message
Each hard update should be as small as possible. This way if something breaks it is easy to identify what went wrong.
Combining updates together is a terrible idea.
Combining updates together is a terrible idea.
S
23:12
Sebsebzen
ah ok, so its just 31 VEO more than target per day
23:12
thats find
OK
23:12
O K
In reply to this message
If we can all agree that the target is a good target, then getting closer to target isn't a bad thing — also
S
23:12
Sebsebzen
*fine
OK
S
23:12
Sy
I'm with zack on this, step by step
Z
S
23:12
Sy
how far is the clock allowed to be aoff when this goes live?
DY
S
23:13
Sebsebzen
+1
OK
23:13
O K
In reply to this message
So the new algorithm arguably gives us opportunity to REDUCE inflation in the long run
IP
23:13
I P
don't rush it. we don't want to break anything
AK
23:14
A K
We also don't want benevolent miners to leave, i guess...
Z
23:15
Zack
In reply to this message
The default behavior will be to accept blocks with timestamps in the future as valid, but each mining pool will only try to build blocks on top of blocks who's timestamp is from the past.
If there are 2 blocks at the same block-height, the one with the earlier timestamp has more accumulative work, and will be considered the top block.
We will require each block's timestamp to be later than the previous block's timestamp.
If there are 2 blocks at the same block-height, the one with the earlier timestamp has more accumulative work, and will be considered the top block.
We will require each block's timestamp to be later than the previous block's timestamp.
S
23:20
Sy
okay
OK
23:23
O K
😂
AK
23:24
A K
🙈
[
23:26
[Riki]
see, the difficulty update didnt even happen yet and women are already arriving
DY
P
23:28
Peter
They heard about a possible hard fork
OK
M
23:47
Mike
Amoveo will be on CoinMarketCap within ~48 hours
IP
M
23:48
Mike
It’s removed. Qtrade has submitted the application
IP
23:48
exchange can be listed in CMC but a coin can be listed only when meeting volume requirements
M
23:49
Mike
Look at the coins added today.
MF
23:50
Mr Flintstone
how do you see what coins were recently added to cmc ?
M
23:50
Mike
Trending->Recently Added
23:54
Deleted Account
OT: can someone advice an good OTC Market for doing a 1000BTC trade?
IP
23:57
Deleted Account
Sell. Im asking for a friend ;)
AK
23:57
A K
gemini trades VEO?
IP
24 July 2018
AK
S
01:50
Deleted Account
TIL realized that Amoveo have ancap branding
01:50
I like it
DY
A
S
01:57
Sebsebzen
wow, I don't think that was planned, but it fits well!
A
01:57
Aries
the colors
01:57
?
S
01:57
Sebsebzen
yes
OK
A
01:58
Aries
me too
02:03
Deleted Account
Wtb - pm me best offers, price and quantity
02:04
Be careful - deposit small amount first to check
DY
[
OK
02:08
O K
To the best of everyone's knowledge:
amoveo.exchange
qtrade.io
have not stolen or lost anyone's funds. Start small and proceed with caution, as with all exchanges in crypto-spaces
amoveo.exchange
qtrade.io
have not stolen or lost anyone's funds. Start small and proceed with caution, as with all exchanges in crypto-spaces
02:08
Don't leave more on the exchange than you can afford to lose
02:09
In reply to this message
There is OTC trading on the discord #trading channel if you prefer that
T
02:19
Temüjin
Guys, I'm rather new here and just starting to wrap my head around everything
DY
T
02:20
Temüjin
What will be the max supply of veo?
02:20
Trying to make sense of the price
DY
T
02:20
Temüjin
Holy crap.
OK
T
02:20
Temüjin
Now that's interesting.
OK
T
02:20
Temüjin
I see
OK
02:21
O K
The 'maximum supply' is limited by time, the block reward, and the target block time
DY
OK
02:21
O K
The block reward is a governance variable
02:21
But, if you assume that variable does not change, you might put it in this perspective:
T
02:22
Temüjin
Still, seeing how this thing has been trucking along for some time, the emission seems to be pretty much on the lower side of the spectrum
OK
02:22
O K
With 10 minute blocks, and a 1.2 Veo block reward (including the dev fee), it would take 330 years to reach a supply, like bitcoin's of 21,000,000
02:23
In reply to this message
These aren't necessarily safe assumptions, it's just to offer some perspective
T
02:24
Temüjin
Nothings safe
02:24
Still, makes more sense to me now
02:24
Thanks a bunch
OK
02:24
O K
👍
T
02:24
Temüjin
Guess I'll have me some veo otc
OK
02:25
O K
In reply to this message
The market cap is pretty low, that might not be a bad idea. There are also these two exchanges
T
02:26
Temüjin
Didn't follow development all that thoroughly, but made it a priority not to forget about this project ever since Zach left aeternity
DY
02:27
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
We've opened up https://amoveo.exchange/ today. Feel free to trade and I'm always here & on discord for support.
B
04:22
it says there are 5 VEO for .7 ETH each
04:22
but parts of that order are already filled
04:23
so i should reflect what is left from that Position
04:23
(ID 64)
DY
Deleted invited Deleted Account
AS
08:08
Deleted Account
I am getting 0.001 VEO per day for 1GH/s. Does that sound about right?
OK
08:09
O K
"So your average earnings are most likely close to 0.0016 VEO per day." Per the calculator
08:09
What pool are you mining on?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
OK
08:46
Your work is being forwarded there, and the work forwarding is not efficient, causing more invalid shares than you deserve
08:46
You can see here: amoveopool.com#getting-started
OK
09:14
Deleted Account
Got it. Thanks.
OK
09:15
O K
Thank you
M
10:13
Mike
I’ve been on vacation for 3 weeks so I haven’t had a chance to switch my miner, but I’m not getting any invalid shares directed at AP2
OK
10:14
O K
Really?
10:14
Per your dashboard on amoveopool.com?
j
10:16
jayntguru
what's the trick to sending veo from the wallet? I can se my balance, enter in a pub key to send to, and I hit "spend, sign and broadcast" and it just clears the "amount to send" box and never does anything. what am I doing wrong?
OK
10:17
O K
That means it sent
10:17
Check explorer.html
10:18
Explorer.html shows the txpool (i.e. 0 confirmation transactions)
10:18
Once it's included in a block, wallet.html balance will == explorer.html balance
j
10:19
jayntguru
still shows my full balance. i've been trying all day with the same result. (is there a TX fee? how do I know how much?)
OK
10:19
If you're sending to a new account create_acc_tx it's more
M
10:23
Mike
In reply to this message
I was home for all of a couple of hours last week but I had 0 invalids. I may have been looking at it wrong and I’ve only got 1 980 pointed there right now.
j
10:23
jayntguru
trying to send to qtrade. i tried as much as .001 which seems like enough per the others that have gone through. http://159.65.173.9:8080/wallet.html
OK
j
10:36
jayntguru
not at all BJA1wHML/fygUn3lG7pWeSS3NgRawFqY9Vm4P09zHeQZNgug9zLHGe58gXBG/UdGJkUpdvhxzkWPgTNWJ/DYuMQ=
OK
10:38
O K
27638 is topheight, looks good
10:38
So you refresh the page, and load your keys, check your balance and it's 0.72
10:39
You put 0.001 in 'amount to send', then their pubkey in the 'to pubkey' field
10:39
And use your arrow keys to make sure there is no space at the beginning or end of the address
10:40
First char B, last char =
10:40
spend, sign, broadcast
10:42
Amount disappears, you check explorer.html after "update height" immediately and there is no change in your balance
10:42
?
j
10:48
jayntguru
yes that worked
10:49
I'm trying to send as much as I can. I tried subtracting .001 from the amount, is that not enogh?
OK
10:49
O K
I see what you're asking
10:49
0.00151168 is the create acc transaction fee
10:50
I think you should subtract 0.00151169
j
10:52
jayntguru
that did the trick. thank you very much.
OK
10:52
O K
👍
11:40
Deleted Account
Is there any documentation on the purpose of the Dev Reward? I don't think I see any in the repo.
OK
11:42
O K
Change to the master branch, there may be changes, maybe not
11:43
Deleted Account
(that's the current master)
11:44
> The long-term goal is to fund Amoveo development using insured crowdfunding
Ok so between now and when that happens is there any plan to add people to the team (who can potentially share the dev reward)?
Ok so between now and when that happens is there any plan to add people to the team (who can potentially share the dev reward)?
11:46
In reply to this message
Here I suggested one potential use of that funding that seems aligned with the long-term success of the project.
IP
M
12:17
Mike
Wash trading on qtrade
YS
12:20
Yi Sun
Any idea how to sync a full node?
12:20
I’m unable to connect to any peers
DY
B
IP
14:21
qtrade is not a big exchange with fake volume
14:22
qtrade volume and trades seem very legit to me
DY
IP
14:22
I P
DY
S
15:49
Sy
Qtrade high low seems to be Last only
B
15:55
Ben
but Volume is picking up already 1.7 BTC last 24h
15:55
not bad
S
15:58
Sy
Yep, someone bought in
Šea invited Šea
Paul Gibson invited Paul Gibson
M
17:47
Mike
In reply to this message
I fail to see why someone would tighten the spread then chop up orders against them self. I was watching the book all night
17:47
And if you place some orders you can get them stacked.
17:49
In reply to this message
Wash isn’t fake, not like Binance with shadow (not really the correct word) trading where the orders aren’t ever on the book
DY
20:37
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Could you explain with ss? I didnt get what you meant by chop up?
M
21:42
Mike
In reply to this message
If you can see they are different IP’s on your end then it’s fine, I could be wrong. It’s such a small amount that it doesn’t matter. I was just commenting on it in case the person doing it was on here.
21:44
They moved their bids right under their sells and took like 5 chunks to buy the .77 BTC order to give a guise of activity.
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Hunter (′ꈍωꈍ‵) invited Hunter (′ꈍωꈍ‵)
H
22:15
Hunter (′ꈍωꈍ‵)
hello
22:15
everyeone
22:16
is this project releasing a site, exchange ect anytime soon?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
22:20
Mr Flintstone
hello
22:20
in terms of a website you can just look at zacks GitHub
22:20
We have two exchanges not including the one zack built
22:21
22:21
Deleted Account
Which one has higher volume? If I want to buy for 3btc I guess otc is better?
MF
22:22
Mr Flintstone
you can check the order books, but I believe qtrade is more liquid
DY
MF
22:22
Mr Flintstone
please note deposit/ withdrawal limits on qtrade though. Not sure about amoveo.exchange
DY
MF
22:23
Mr Flintstone
looks like you can get up to 1 btc exposure below 0.035 veo/btc on qtrade
Karlis L invited Karlis L
Z
22:51
Zack
I am thinking I will remove the translation tool from the light node.
It is expensive to load so much text, and google chrome can already do a better job of translating.
Does anyone actually use this tool?
It is expensive to load so much text, and google chrome can already do a better job of translating.
Does anyone actually use this tool?
KL
IP
DY
KL
22:57
Karlis L
oh, pardon
OK
23:00
O K
In reply to this message
I think this is the right decision zack, it will make it easier to make improvements without this tool, and there are many 3rd party translation tools available
25 July 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Audrius invited Audrius
Verso invited Verso
V
19:47
Verso
Hi there!
DY
V
19:47
Verso
Does anyone in here know of a trsutworthy OTC seller for this? 🙂
Deleted invited Deleted Account
V
19:49
Verso
Zack you willing to sell me some OTC? 🙂
IP
DY
19:49
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
OTC sales are done in discord. You may use zacks excrow tool. Or decide to trust the person. You can also buy some on http://amoveo.exchange/
V
19:49
Verso
thanks guys!
19:49
what’s its current MC?
DY
AK
V
19:50
Verso
thanks
19:50
damn i thought this was micro cap
AK
19:50
A K
it is imo ))
IP
V
19:51
Verso
i know 😉
IP
19:51
I P
also please note that 20% of coins are locked
V
19:51
Verso
just thought this was more low key than it is.
IP
V
19:53
Verso
whats up with the token metrics??
19:53
245$ per token??
19:53
Don’t you think it would make sense to increase supply/lower price per token
19:53
I know it’s market cap that counts
19:53
but still
DY
19:53
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
It was $800 2 months ago. Dropped really fast and has been around that price for sometime.
V
19:53
Verso
for noobs to come on board 😉
IP
V
19:54
Verso
I feel like a low cost per token is a really good marketing tactic
19:54
look at pundi x
IP
V
19:55
Verso
got into that ICO 😉
DY
V
19:56
Verso
Zack something you might consider? 🙂
19:56
I assume mining is more profitable than buying now?
AK
19:57
A K
nope
19:57
mining is a loss
19:57
vis a vis ETH
IP
V
19:58
Verso
oh
19:58
ok maybe not then 😉
19:58
can someone link me discord lpz
19:58
plz
19:58
the link i found didnt work
DY
V
20:00
Verso
thanks Demi!
AK
20:55
A K
ok noob question, trying to use the light wallet from Zack's node
20:55
hitting "spend, sign and broadast" - amount field is cleared, nothing else seems to happen
DY
AK
20:56
A K
ahh ok, however veoscan shows no tx's either..
20:56
or does it show only confirmed? if yes, any way to check "mempool" online?
DY
20:56
Demi Yilmaz
You can see if the tx was boradcasted from zack wallet and click on check balance
20:57
AK
DY
20:57
Demi Yilmaz
Check out the explorers some of them show
AK
21:00
A K
unsigned spend + sign seem to work
21:01
publish does nothing tho
DY
21:02
Demi Yilmaz
I just use spend sign & broadcast & it works always
AK
21:02
A K
Firefox?
DY
21:02
Demi Yilmaz
U may want to check your tx fee & subtract tht amount before sending.
AK
21:03
A K
i'll try chrome
21:03
but I don't even see a tx fee setting (
DY
21:04
spend & create_acc are different
AK
21:05
A K
ah, amount is sufficient, checked
21:06
amount should be in VEOs or mVEOs or veosatoshis? )
DY
21:06
Demi Yilmaz
VEOs
AK
21:09
A K
Chrome behaves the same (
MF
21:09
Mr Flintstone
if the amount disappears when you hit spend sign and broadcast you should be ok
21:09
you can check 0 confirm tx using this
21:09
just paste pubkey and hit lookup account
AK
21:10
A K
amount not changed (
OK
21:11
O K
You are likely spending an amount that is too high to cover the tx plus the fee
21:12
The updated nodes are just "send" not "spend sign and broadcast" anymore
21:13
The ap2 nodes are updated, probably so is Zack's
AK
21:13
A K
lemme check ap2
OK
21:13
O K
It's linked on veoscan
AK
21:13
A K
aha
OK
21:14
O K
Not our direct URL
21:14
The node
AK
21:14
A K
btw it lacks https it seems (
OK
21:14
O K
All light nodes lack https, until DNS is integrated into the nodes that will likely remain the case
21:14
However all key processing is done on your machine, you're encouraged to check the JavaScript on any light node
21:15
It is not sent over http
AK
21:15
A K
ah ok
OK
21:15
O K
There is a "max send" button too on the updated nodes
21:16
Populate the recipient address field after loading your keys and use the maximum amount button to populate the amount field
AK
21:16
A K
ok found ap2 node
OK
21:16
O K
If it is less than what you were entering before you'll know that was your issue
21:16
I believe the updated nodes also parse/trim for addresses and ignore any noise in the outer characters like a trailing space
AK
21:16
A K
calculate max send amount return nothing
21:17
check balance shows correct
OK
21:17
O K
Did you put in recipient address and load your keys?
21:17
Can't know the max amount until it knows who the recipient is
AK
21:17
A K
keys yes
21:17
ahh
OK
21:17
O K
New accounts cost more to send to
AK
21:18
A K
calculated, above what i was puttin in previously
21:18
decreased even some more
OK
21:18
O K
Okay, give it a shot, then immediately open the explorer.HTML on the same node
21:19
Update the height/get headers
21:19
And check your pubkey
AK
21:20
A K
yep, was updating
21:21
nothing changed in explorer either
21:22
wait changed
21:22
pheww
21:22
now to the moon!
21:22
guys thanks so much
21:22
now I feel obliged to submit a PR with better UX ))
OK
21:22
O K
In reply to this message
Please do! Please see and comment on the open issue in the github
AK
21:23
A K
yet only changed in explorer and only on the same node
OK
AK
21:23
A K
hopefully all others will update after the block
OK
21:23
O K
Yes that's the idea
AK
21:25
A K
👌
21:31
i'll check
OK
21:36
O K
Cool
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
21:48
Zack
@potat_o do you have a donation address?
You have been helping a lot of new users lately, and making good suggestions on updating the light node.
You have been helping a lot of new users lately, and making good suggestions on updating the light node.
A
22:19
Aries
:)
22:24
@potat_o you the real MVP
Z
22:30
Zack
in the last 2 months, AE's codebase grew by 32k lines of erlang.
Amoveo is 11k lines long. It took us 4.5 years to write Amoveo
Every day, AE writes as much blockchain software as would take us 78 days to write.
Watch out for the Aeternity scam.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/AeternityScam.md
Amoveo is 11k lines long. It took us 4.5 years to write Amoveo
Every day, AE writes as much blockchain software as would take us 78 days to write.
Watch out for the Aeternity scam.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/AeternityScam.md
IP
Deleted invited Deleted Account
JL
22:43
Josh L
Veo calculator?
22:43
As well as price?
AK
22:49
Deleted Account
What will be estimated 2050 supply given current block?
22:49
How much for Vladimir Club Cost ;) - owning 1% of 1% of total supply
IP
22:50
less than 2 million
AK
22:50
A K
60x inflation
22:53
Deleted Account
So one has to own 200 VEO for Vladimir Club
22:53
43k usd
MF
23:01
Mr Flintstone
If we were to theoretically follow the same halving schedule as bitcoin, there would only ever be 420k veo
23:06
not including dev reward
L
23:21
Deleted Account
Really not turing complete state channel?
23:21
I invest much in Ae
23:22
Deleted Account
42 is the answer ;)
23:23
Zack Can one create exactly the same prediction market as for Augur to show lower tx fees and advantages? It would be beneficial to have "show don't tell example"
Z
23:27
Zack
In reply to this message
I reviewed the AE codebase today. They don't have turing complete state channels yet.
There is not much time left till launch. It seems like they will launch without this feature.
There is not much time left till launch. It seems like they will launch without this feature.
23:33
Deleted Account
But eventually you launched amoveo successfully. What you paid will be rewarded in the last
V
23:34
You considering maybe increasing token supply?
ŽM
23:38
Živojin Mirić
Decimal is a matter of display in wallets and on exchanges it is not in code so the supply can be the same if everyone agrees to move the dot
V
23:38
Verso
I know...
ŽM
23:38
Živojin Mirić
This topic was discussed several times before
V
23:38
Verso
but for marketing purposes it makes a HUGE difference
23:38
trust me.
23:38
Look at Pundi x
23:38
they changed their whole token metrics
ŽM
23:38
Živojin Mirić
I agree but you asked the question wrong
23:38
The supply will not change
23:39
We can just start using smaller parts of VEO and call it VEO
Mark invited Mark
V
23:40
Verso
or fork it?
23:40
do a 100-1 swap or something
OK
23:40
O K
I think there is a lot of support, not for a swap, but for moving the decimal
ŽM
23:40
Živojin Mirić
I think that supply will not change
OK
23:40
O K
Or eliminating it
ŽM
23:40
Živojin Mirić
Only maybe the decimal
23:41
So it sounds different :D
OK
AK
23:44
A K
It indeed seems irrational but i agree, it will help attract ppl
23:45
Deleted Account
Please do decimal
23:45
and let me feel eich
23:45
Feel rich
S
23:50
Sebsebzen
mVEO
23:50
We’ll get there
23:51
Deleted Account
I got banned again in AE group
23:51
again and again
23:52
They sucks
Z
23:52
Zack
It is because information is very dangerous to AE.
If any of their investors learn what is going on, they would sell all their tokens.
If any of their investors learn what is going on, they would sell all their tokens.
23:52
Information is helpful to Amoveo, so I don't ban competitors from our forums.
JL
23:59
Josh L
What is hashrate of 1070 on amoveo?
26 July 2018
V
00:06
Verso
do u mind sharing what is going on?
MF
00:10
Mr Flintstone
he linked to it
00:11
Deleted Account
Any ways to get more phone numbers to register telegram
Z
00:11
Zack
I think you need a new sim card, right?
00:12
Deleted Account
I got banned three times
V
00:13
Verso
yeah u can use different online services
00:13
to get a temporary phone number
AK
00:14
A K
Most of them don't pass verification SMS from TG, FB, Twitter, Google etc
00:14
Smsprivacy.org has real numbers
00:14
Albeit expensive
00:17
Deleted Account
This directory contains varna compiler, but there is no VM as Zack said.
https://github.com/aeternity/epoch/tree/master/apps/aevarna/src
Wondering how many AE investors know these facts...
https://github.com/aeternity/epoch/tree/master/apps/aevarna/src
Wondering how many AE investors know these facts...
00:18
So it's just ethereum (maybe degraded) copy at launch.
J
Z
00:33
Zack
In reply to this message
I think with small modification, we could use this compiler for Amoveo's VM.
It might be cool if we support Varna before AE does.
It might be cool if we support Varna before AE does.
00:33
Although, I think the compiler with lisp macros is more powerful.
AK
00:34
A K
Varna is an alternative to Chalang?
00:34
Deleted Account
So varna exist?
Z
00:34
Zack
Varna is a high level language that can be compiled to a VM.
00:34
Aeternity didn't write the VM for Varna yet, but it is almost identical to Chalang's VM.
Z
00:34
Zack
so with slight modification, would should be able to use Varna contracts on Amoveo.
Z
00:50
Zack
it looks like sophia compiler is more ready to be used. maybe that one would be easier to support.
I bet lll wouldn't be too hard to support either.
I bet lll wouldn't be too hard to support either.
N
00:52
NM$L
lll？
Z
00:58
Zack
lll is one of the languages for ethereum.
There is this compiler in javascript: https://github.com/ajlopez/llljs/blob/master/lib/parsers.js
There is this compiler in javascript: https://github.com/ajlopez/llljs/blob/master/lib/parsers.js
01:02
solidity is fairly complicated. I expect it would be more difficult to write a solidity compiler for chalang in comparison to writing a C compiler for chalang.
01:02
Deleted Account
The Sophia language is a good idea IMHO. Im not sure how important it is though. I figure contracts are short and sweet and dont require much in terms of tooling. But looking at the possible pitfalls around smart contracts is a nobrainer considering all the ethereum bugs
01:02
Solidity is not the right tool for the job. Proven in field
01:04
I think right now amoveo would be better served by tutorials and docs on how to write contracts in lisp and chalang rather than having more options
Z
01:04
Zack
yes, thats probably right
01:04
Deleted Account
If you are right about Æ, supporting Varna and Sophia will be pointless, as they both will have zero mindshare
01:05
Better to let the Æ team trailblaze those, then add support once it catches on
Z
01:06
Zack
I am not so great at writing compilers.
They both work right, but the errors are very difficult to decipher.
They both work right, but the errors are very difficult to decipher.
01:07
Deleted Account
Theres always the LFE compiler :) then you might even lure Virding over to the Amoveo camp
Z
01:07
Zack
good idea. I didn't know virding did this
01:08
oh, this is for the erlang compiler
01:08
Deleted Account
Its his baby. But that compiles lisp to the BEAM. So that is useful only for testing I guess
01:09
I never looked into LFE.
Z
01:09
Zack
we need something that compiles to forth
01:09
Deleted Account
I wish i had more time to help :)
01:10
Too many interesting things to be done
Albert joined group by link from Group
Z
01:16
Zack
I think I will just re-use some pieces from sophia to make a better linter for chalang. then the error messages will work.
sd
02:03
steel dan
Zack can't you bypass forth and use erlang functions instead of forth-like op codes in chalang? The chalang engine is written in erlang. You wrote :
sd
02:03
steel dan
Z
Zack 26.07.2018 01:08:36
oh, this is for the erlang compiler
02:03
we need something that compiles to forth
Z
02:04
Zack
In reply to this message
no.
We need to calculate some gas cost that is proportionate to the computational complexity.
We need to calculate some gas cost that is proportionate to the computational complexity.
02:04
BEAM doesn't have gas, as far as I know.
02:05
the chalang VM is similar to Forth. so if some compiler compiles to forth, then it isn't so hard to adapt it for Amoveo.
BKcrypto invited BKcrypto
+
02:41
++
In reply to this message
Since unprofitable, would you expect the following to happen:
Miners switch capacity to other tokens.
So system slows and difficulty has decrease to maintain target confirm rates.
Cost to mine a token goes down as difficulty declines making the new lower VEO prices profitable again for miners.
Please correct this where wrong...
Miners switch capacity to other tokens.
So system slows and difficulty has decrease to maintain target confirm rates.
Cost to mine a token goes down as difficulty declines making the new lower VEO prices profitable again for miners.
Please correct this where wrong...
IP
02:41
I P
In reply to this message
downside difficulty adjustment is very limited right now. only 16% per 1000 blocks
+
02:43
++
In reply to this message
Thx. So will take time to adjust and over that time, system will lose lots of hashing capacity as miners seek other projects offering better economics?
IP
02:44
I P
In reply to this message
system, already lost a lot of hashpower hence we have very slow blocks. but many miners don't plan to sell at current price they understand it is worth more
+
02:48
++
In reply to this message
What efforts are there for building fundamental demand for the token?
At the moment, seems miners make tokens to capture spread between mining cost and quoted values on exchanges and buyers on exchanges are mostly speculating the tokens go up. Are there efforts to build fundamental demand for the tokens based on their usefulness in prediction markets?
At the moment, seems miners make tokens to capture spread between mining cost and quoted values on exchanges and buyers on exchanges are mostly speculating the tokens go up. Are there efforts to build fundamental demand for the tokens based on their usefulness in prediction markets?
IP
02:50
I P
In reply to this message
veo is fully functional, you can already make bets. recent update made this cheaper. also check amoveobook.com and https://veoscan.io/markets
+
02:56
++
In reply to this message
Wondering if there has been discussion about allowing the difficulty rate adjust quicker. The reason is that if the veo price falls, the system loses the ability to do fast and predictable confirms and this decreases the value proposition for those that want the token for its utility value (real users). Ultimately goal would seem to be make this a kickass platform (fast and dependable) for prediction markets but can’t do that if incentives to miners don’t adjust quickly for downward price volatility of tokens.
Can get downward cycle of lower prices degrade system performance which lowers fundamental demand, which lowers prices, which lowers incentives to miners, which lowers system performance, etc, etc...
Can get downward cycle of lower prices degrade system performance which lowers fundamental demand, which lowers prices, which lowers incentives to miners, which lowers system performance, etc, etc...
IP
+
03:04
++
In reply to this message
Not sure I get it. Are you saying that a decline in the hashing capacity devoted to VEO has no effect on the speed and reliability of transactions for tokens used in prediction markets?
S
03:18
Sy
The First Augur Assassination Markets Have Arrived - CoinDesk
https://www.coindesk.com/the-first-augur-assassination-markets-have-arrived/
https://www.coindesk.com/the-first-augur-assassination-markets-have-arrived/
03:18
Crazy
sd
03:18
steel dan
In reply to this message
Zack you mean the Ethereum gas, the Ethereum system of assigning complexity and pricing it or gas assembly?
Z
03:20
In reply to this message
the rate of block production does not make much of a difference for the usability of the markets.
IP
+
MF
04:02
Mr Flintstone
market activity is done in channels
04:02
we can update the channel state independent of when the last block was
Z
04:13
Zack
channels are already trustless. no advantage to posting to the blockchain more frequently.
A S joined group by link from Group
+
04:49
++
Is it fair to say the chain represents the latest consensus state and dictates the capacity for new accounts, new channels, orders, oracles, etc...
So here is a dependency between system scaling and hashing capacity.
It doesn’t scale relative to transactions in a channel but does relative to the number of channels, oracles, etc, right?
So here is a dependency between system scaling and hashing capacity.
It doesn’t scale relative to transactions in a channel but does relative to the number of channels, oracles, etc, right?
Z
05:10
Zack
We are using less than 1% of capacity. So this doesn't make a difference for now.
05:13
Deleted Account
What do you guys make of these «assasination markets»?
Z
05:15
Zack
Paul Storc's writing is all that needs to be said about assassination markets
MF
05:15
Mr Flintstone
I think there will be forks
05:16
and there will be valuable tokens on each fork
05:16
It is too easy to fake your own death to claim the reward. The police will usually even help you fake your death.
05:16
So if you try to assassinate someone, all you are really doing is giving them free money.
MF
06:07
Mr Flintstone
cool, thanks for the link zack
06:09
faking your death comes with great cost to many people I will say
06:09
people are not coldly rational about these things
06:10
like, if you told me I could make 1 billion dollars by faking my own death it wouldn’t be worth it to me
06:10
maybe others feel differently
06:13
Deleted Account
Thanks also for that link
A
Z
06:18
Zack
In reply to this message
why not? your friends and family could know that you are faking. It would still work.
06:18
It is a lot better than being killed.
06:20
With the current governance settings, it is set up so you only have to fake being dead for a week.
Although with block times so slow, it would be like a month and a half if you did it now.
Although with block times so slow, it would be like a month and a half if you did it now.
A
06:20
Aries
Assassination Politics and Crypto are as old as time.
06:23
Deleted Account
I think that crypto is actually reducing violence
06:25
- drug dealers moving to internet (less space for violent acts there)
- people can safely hide their "grey money" - illegal immigrants may safely hide their savings
- you don't kill people you trade with - you can establish trust relationships with people all around the world - bitcoin don't see your skin color, your age or nationality
- people can safely hide their "grey money" - illegal immigrants may safely hide their savings
- you don't kill people you trade with - you can establish trust relationships with people all around the world - bitcoin don't see your skin color, your age or nationality
MF
06:45
hypotheticals are difficult
ES
James Raynor invited James Raynor
S
12:06
Sebsebzen
Zack Would it make sense to be able to tag market as unethical on Amoveo? Like, possible answers, Yes, No, Invalid, Unethical
IP
13:42
I P
In reply to this message
ethic has no relation to the blockchain. yes no invalid is enough in this case
M
13:47
Minieep21
Tag assassination markets as unethical
S
14:06
Sebsebzen
I do think ethics has relation to prediction markets tho
14:07
at least as a possible answer, or maybe explicitly state that invalid can also mean unethical
Deleted invited Deleted Account
B
15:59
Ben
ethic's is Pandoras box since it is not a binary value
15:59
it reflects the state of an society
DY
16:03
Demi Yilmaz
For the exchange we have
- updated the trade UI: https://amoveo.exchange/trade/index
- created an api: https://amoveo.exchange/api/v1/tickers
- applied for coinmarketcap listing. (thanks @RikiPedala )
- pull deposit status from zackspool before the first block is mined (thanks @ohmycrypto )
- aggregated the orders (sorry @sourcex we don't show ids anymore, thanks Ben this fixes your bug)
- added trade history (thanks @Jbreezy0 )
- and many more minor tasks
We'll be pushing more updates in the upcoming days/weeks. Thanks for supporting amoveo.exchange
- updated the trade UI: https://amoveo.exchange/trade/index
- created an api: https://amoveo.exchange/api/v1/tickers
- applied for coinmarketcap listing. (thanks @RikiPedala )
- pull deposit status from zackspool before the first block is mined (thanks @ohmycrypto )
- aggregated the orders (sorry @sourcex we don't show ids anymore, thanks Ben this fixes your bug)
- added trade history (thanks @Jbreezy0 )
- and many more minor tasks
We'll be pushing more updates in the upcoming days/weeks. Thanks for supporting amoveo.exchange
B
16:39
Ben
looks slick, good job!
Z
MF
Z
22:22
I wonder what is going wrong. I can't reproduce any bug related to this update.
MF
Z
22:32
Zack
It looks like if block number 27700 is empty of txs, it is valid. if there are any txs in it, then it is invalid.
22:36
I pushed a fix to github. we all need to update.
S
22:37
Sy
k
OK
22:38
O K
amoveopool is updating
22:39
What is the current block, which fork is proper
Z
22:39
Zack
27699 is the current height I think.
We need to re-mine 27700 because it was rejected.
we still have a header for 27700, so the light node says that.
We need to re-mine 27700 because it was rejected.
we still have a header for 27700, so the light node says that.
S
22:42
Sy
yeah veopool found 27700 5 times so far, lets hope it gets accepted after the update :)
OK
22:44
O K
no >:c mine
22:44
😂
22:46
Zack after fix should we still be seeing
get their top header a lot
22:46
Do we need to clean
Z
22:47
Zack
that should be ok.
Since the nodes have more headers than blocks, they are all correctly searching for 27700.
Since the nodes have more headers than blocks, they are all correctly searching for 27700.
22:47
I think there is no need to clean
OK
22:47
O K
👍 looks like successful absorb now
S
22:49
Sy
found another one 3 mins ago
22:49
Deleted Account
👍
S
22:50
Sy
yep working
22:50
phew :D
MF
22:51
Mr Flintstone
Newsweek article on augur
22:51
you can guess that they are focusing on the assassination politics
A
22:51
Aries
Ugh
OK
22:52
O K
Isn't augur centralised
22:52
Seems like they could just do a lbry.io style thing
22:53
"censor" markets without actually eliminating them
Z
22:53
Zack
Sy mined an empty block 27700, so that means everyone will sync even if they don't update.
OK
Z
22:54
Zack
In reply to this message
no, it is decentralized.
It is thousands of times more expensive than Amoveo's oracle design.
It is thousands of times more expensive than Amoveo's oracle design.
22:55
Although, I don't know what you mean by lbry.io or censorship.
A
22:55
Aries
Wait
MF
A
22:55
Aries
This article is old
22:56
😮 oh
OK
22:56
O K
In reply to this message
I mean, their website is centralized, like lbry.io's browser service
22:56
So there can be any content on lbry blockchain, but they have a legal team that censors things from the official browser
22:56
You could use a 3rd party browser to access the forbidden content
Z
22:58
Zack
In reply to this message
oh, I get what you mean now.
It is like if I modified the javascript light node software to refuse to display a market I didn't like.
It is like if I modified the javascript light node software to refuse to display a market I didn't like.
22:58
I haven't looked into this particular vulnerability, but I would expect Augur's website to be open source the same way our light nodes are.
23:03
Every one of our explorer.html pages are centralized from a single server. Each centralized provider makes the choice of what markets to display.
Hopefully Augur is similar, and the code for the website to display markets is open source.
Hopefully Augur is similar, and the code for the website to display markets is open source.
AK
23:47
A K
Guys, what’s with all those miners that mined 5+ blocks on now invalid chain
AK
23:47
A K
they receive nothing?
OK
23:49
O K
In reply to this message
Thanks Zack, that's much appreciated. Maybe I will use the donation to fund a competition.
BGOae6VjJOoz2XwcIDEVahnLmJOl8GnY3aGX9FaP0Er6F8oPxaMp+Nr//c/rj2ahM4R2vq6GnssorEIS5q9Le7c=
Z
27 July 2018
AK
00:00
A K
OK
Z
00:21
Zack
In reply to this message
They still don't have state channels. This is only a small piece of the code towards that goal.
state channel smart contracts need to be integrated into an off-chain market to be usable.
AE is probably years away from being able to do this.
state channel smart contracts need to be integrated into an off-chain market to be usable.
AE is probably years away from being able to do this.
00:23
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
I did not understand „off-chain market“. Does amoveo have routing with smart contracts like lightning (with hops etc.)?
Z
00:25
Zack
Amoveo supports 2-hop connections, it is using the hub and spoke model.
If even one piece of a smart contract is not trustless, then the whole thing is not trustless.
We need a market so that we can trustlessly calculate the market price for participating in smart contracts.
In order to have the gas saving benefits of being an off-chain dapp, the market needs to be completely off chain inside the turing complete state channels.
If even one piece of a smart contract is not trustless, then the whole thing is not trustless.
We need a market so that we can trustlessly calculate the market price for participating in smart contracts.
In order to have the gas saving benefits of being an off-chain dapp, the market needs to be completely off chain inside the turing complete state channels.
00:27
Eventually Amoveo can support more than 2-hops. The protocol allows for it.
IP
00:28
I P
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
👍, 44.0 KB
MF
Z
03:14
Zack
In reply to this message
It is a cool math trick. I have trouble seeing any practical applications.
it is vulnerable to sybil attacks, which makes it worthless for almost any blockchain system.
It has the same problems as all other voting systems: 1) incentive to vote accurately is too small 2) cost of voting accurately is too high.
Voter apathy + bribery means it is not cryptoeconomically secure.
Futarchy type mechanisms are ideal for helping groups of people come to decisions. It seems that a futarchy type mechanism would always do a better job of satisfying more people in comparison to voting or quadratic voting.
it is vulnerable to sybil attacks, which makes it worthless for almost any blockchain system.
It has the same problems as all other voting systems: 1) incentive to vote accurately is too small 2) cost of voting accurately is too high.
Voter apathy + bribery means it is not cryptoeconomically secure.
Futarchy type mechanisms are ideal for helping groups of people come to decisions. It seems that a futarchy type mechanism would always do a better job of satisfying more people in comparison to voting or quadratic voting.
03:15
So from a security standpoint, it is not secure against attackers.
And from a game-theory standpoint, even if no one attacked it, it would still cause us to make bad decisions.
And from a game-theory standpoint, even if no one attacked it, it would still cause us to make bad decisions.
V
03:33
Verso
why does this group keep showing me being mentioned when im not??
03:34
weird glitch
sd
04:15
steel dan
Zack Can somebody (or a lot of small bettors) place multiple bets in an oracle that partially match the bet of the unmatched (bigger) opposite bet which is currently winning and pending?
So that lots of little guys bet against one whale and possibly win...
So that lots of little guys bet against one whale and possibly win...
MF
04:38
Mr Flintstone
I think you could maybe do some cool stuff with smart contracts to achieve this
04:38
obviously we don’t have arbitrary on-chain smart contracts, but i think you may be able to organize a smart contract such that it results in pooled capital going toward an oracle bet
Z
05:04
Zack
In reply to this message
yes. you can partially match existing bets.
Adding a new bet to the order book has lower limit on bet size.
Matching a bet has no limit.
Adding a new bet to the order book has lower limit on bet size.
Matching a bet has no limit.
sd
08:03
steel dan
Zack could you please post a script (smart contract or command sequence) for creating or emulating a multi sig account?
Z
08:46
Zack
In reply to this message
It is impossible to use a smart contract in amoveo to make a multisig.
08:55
I wonder if we should do a hard update to support multi-sig accounts.
sd
08:55
steel dan
It's a necessary feature
08:55
People get hacked every day
08:56
I hear horror stories all the time
OK
08:57
O K
I believe multisig would be a great future addition, but for now we shouldn't get distracted from diff adjustment algo
08:57
Just my 0.02
Z
08:59
Zack
you think the diff adjustment is higher priority? how would you order these 4 goals:
multisig
diff adjustment
the next 4 light node suggestions you made
combinatorial markets
multisig
diff adjustment
the next 4 light node suggestions you made
combinatorial markets
sd
09:01
steel dan
well, multi sig mechanism on full nodes only should be enough for the time being, if that makes it easier for you Zack
09:03
when it comes to diff adjustment, it's not much you can do... Zack , maybe just mimick diff adjustment rule like bcash did to solve the current crisis
OK
09:04
O K
The light node suggestions, in particular version tracking/block height checking would be helpful in implementing mveo. It would help prevent people from spending too much veo when they meant to spend mveo.
The mveo change would be best made while things are still slow, once we implement the diff adjustment, things may pick up fast.
Then the diff adjustment would help pump life back into our ecosystem by bringing more miners online and growing the pie. We can then work against mining pool centralization as we grow the pie.
@sebsebzen Aries @aizen @Simon3456
Personally I don't have a preference on build order on the other things you mentioned. Having them publicly on the list would be good PR if we talk about them while they're in progress
The mveo change would be best made while things are still slow, once we implement the diff adjustment, things may pick up fast.
Then the diff adjustment would help pump life back into our ecosystem by bringing more miners online and growing the pie. We can then work against mining pool centralization as we grow the pie.
@sebsebzen Aries @aizen @Simon3456
Personally I don't have a preference on build order on the other things you mentioned. Having them publicly on the list would be good PR if we talk about them while they're in progress
09:04
sd
09:05
steel dan
I mean bcash algo, Emergency Difficulty Adjustment", or EDA for short.t, quick n dirty solution
09:06
Combinatorial markets could come a bit later in you coding priorities
09:07
I would say multi sig, first , then diff algo, or combinatorial markets
OK
09:08
O K
I'm all in favor of the Getting Things Done rule: if it takes less than 5 minutes do it now
sd
09:12
and I think multi sig just via full nodes should be faster for Zack to implement
Z
09:18
Zack
in order of cost to program:
switch to mveo in light node (4 hours)
version tracking (4 hours)
cominatorial market (15 hours)
diff adjustment (30 hours)
multisig (30 hours)
switch to mveo in light node (4 hours)
version tracking (4 hours)
cominatorial market (15 hours)
diff adjustment (30 hours)
multisig (30 hours)
09:19
I guess for version tracking there should be a hard coded list of full nodes, and you ask each of them for the current block height. You display a warning if any of them are at a higher height.
09:19
so any of the full nodes could produce a false warning, but if they do, I can just remove them from the list.
09:19
I guess it should also tell you which of the full nodes are causing the warning.
OK
09:20
O K
In reply to this message
Version tracking specifically would be regarding running old software, and to warn that there is new software available, and to use an up-to-date wallet
Block height is the issue you are dsecribing. I don't think I mentioned the version tracking explicitely on github. I forgot. Sorry about that.
Block height is the issue you are dsecribing. I don't think I mentioned the version tracking explicitely on github. I forgot. Sorry about that.
09:20
In reply to this message
If we could get "pretty close" or in testing phases to mveo/version tracking + diff adjustment in one 40 hour workweek I think that would be splendid
Z
09:21
Zack
is version tracking part of the light node? or do you want messages to appear on the full node about this?
OK
09:21
O K
Light node, for users
09:21
It could even be in this order:
1) version tracking
2) difficulty
3) mveo
1) version tracking
2) difficulty
3) mveo
Z
09:21
Zack
doesn't checking the block heights accomplish the same goal?
OK
09:21
O K
thus people have some time to upgrade to the "warning system"
09:22
In reply to this message
The idea being that someone might be on a Veo wallet, not an mVeo wallet
09:22
And type in an mVeo amount
09:22
But send Veo
09:22
🙈
Z
09:22
Zack
I was thinking of doing a check point for the light node using header 25000. that way we can sync faster.
OK
09:22
O K
Certainly, that could be done instead
Z
09:22
Zack
should there be a button to switch between mveo mode and veo mode?
OK
09:23
O K
I think the general consensus seems to be to move to a new standard unit that is smaller, so no
09:23
I think I'm sold on it
09:23
In fact, I kind of think we should just go to Zackoshis
09:23
But I'm probably in the minority there
09:23
I think the consensus is a community wide change to mveo
Z
09:25
Zack
I am not understanding the goal of "versioning system"