Amoveo ♥🧿
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27 July 2018
OK
09:25
O K
In reply to this message
It was just an idea of mine, to implement before mveo, to start getting wallets updated, to warn people if the light wallet they are using is out of date
09:25
I'm sure there may be a more eloquent solution to preventing people from spending Veo instead of mVeo on accident
09:26
For instance if this feature were implemented back when there was a "Delete Account" button,
09:26
then once you removed it because people were using it wrong accidentally, any old node would display:
This node is not up to date. Please use a light wallet that is using up to date software
Z
09:27
Zack
maybe we should release this simultaneous with another feature. a popup window that say "you are sending 120 mVEO = 0.120 VEO. are you sure? Yes/No"
09:29
In reply to this message
Is that possible?
How could an old version of the software realize that it has features that are expired?
If it could realize, why not use the recent version of the tool instead?
How could an old version of the software realize that it has features that are expired?
If it could realize, why not use the recent version of the tool instead?
09:30
I think popup windows could be blocked on some browsers.
09:30
I could make more text appear on the page.
OK
09:31
O K
In reply to this message
It would check with github, and look for a 'version'. Version displayed on the front page of light wallet, maybe in the footer
09:31
If the version is not there, or is from the past, then it displays the message
09:31
Edited
Z
09:32
Zack
I guess we should move the light node to a different repository, so that you don't get these notifications when we update the docs.
OK
09:32
O K
That could work if you want the versioning automated (a hash of the repo?) or you could manually version the light node html
Z
09:33
Zack
github doesn't like it if you make a web page that downloads pages of javascript from their repos.
09:34
git uses hashes for integrity already
09:38
The versioning idea is difficult, I am not sure how to do this.
09:38
I guess this api is involved: https://developer.github.com/v3/git/commits/
09:41
erlang could use some linux commands to find out the git commit hash of the current repository: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/15677439/command-to-get-latest-git-commit-hash-from-a-branch/15679298
If we made the light node into a dependency, I am not sure we would be able to use git commands this way.
And we can't keep the light node with everything else, because then these warning would come up every time I edit the README or anything in the docs.
If we made the light node into a dependency, I am not sure we would be able to use git commands this way.
And we can't keep the light node with everything else, because then these warning would come up every time I edit the README or anything in the docs.
09:43
we could make the install process more complicated, and use a shell script to install a second copy of the light node, one that is only used for calculating the hash.
OK
09:44
O K
Hmm, more complicated than I'd expected
Z
09:44
Zack
Maybe there is a better solution I can't think of now. If I try doing this now, I think I would waste time.
OK
09:44
O K
Yes, take your time. Maybe sleeping on it will be fruitful
09:45
Some of the others who aren't on now might have some input as well
Z
09:50
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/tree/retarget
here is the branch where we can make the new retargetting protocol
here is the branch where we can make the new retargetting protocol
09:56
difficulty_should_be2(Header) ->This is the part of the code we need to change.
F = constants:retarget_frequency() div 2,
{Times1, Hash2000} = retarget(Header, F, []),
{Times2, _} = retarget(Hash2000, F, []),
M1 = median(Times1),
M2 = median(Times2),
Tbig = M1 - M2,
T0 = Tbig div F,%T is the estimated block time over last 2000 blocks.
T1 = max(1, T0),
T = min(T1, Header#header.period * 7 div 6),
NT = pow:recalculate(Hash2000#header.difficulty,
Header#header.period,
T),
max(NT, constants:initial_difficulty()).
retarget(Header, 1, L) -> {L, Header};
retarget(Header, N, L) ->
{ok, PH} = read(Header#header.prev_hash),
T = PH#header.time,
retarget(PH, N-1, [T|L]).
median(L) ->
S = length(L),
F = fun(A, B) -> A > B end,
Sorted = lists:sort(F, L),
lists:nth(S div 2, Sorted).
09:57
Currently the cost of retargeting per block is 2 header lookups. every 1000 blocks, we re-read the last 2000 headers.
We want the new retargetting algorithm to be similarly fast.
We want the new retargetting algorithm to be similarly fast.
10:04
starting point for designing the new retargeting protocol:
difficulty_should_be2(Header) ->
P = Header#header.period,
T = Header#header.time,
{ok, PH} = read(Header#header.prev_hash),
DT = T - PH#header.time,
true = DT > 0,
SDT = (DT + (19 * P)) div 20,
ND = pow:recalculate(Header#header.difficulty,
P,
SDT),
max(NT, constants:initial_difficulty()).
10:05
This version would cost 1 lookup per block.
10:06
it would take about 20 blocks to recover from a sudden change in hashrate.
10:07
if we found a block 1 second after the previous block, it would raise the difficulty by 5%.
If a block took 5x as long as expected, it would lower the difficulty 25%.
Maybe this is too quick.
If a block took 5x as long as expected, it would lower the difficulty 25%.
Maybe this is too quick.
10:12
looks like ethereum uses 2048 instead of 20.
But their block time is 15 seconds instead of 600 seconds.
So maybe we should use N=50?
I wonder how far our difficulty would move around due to randomness.
But their block time is 15 seconds instead of 600 seconds.
So maybe we should use N=50?
I wonder how far our difficulty would move around due to randomness.
10:15
a block takes 5x longer than usual once every 32 blocks, more than 4x per day.
If a block took 5x longer, then the difficulty would drop 10%.
Is it acceptable for the difficulty to drop by 10% due to randomness 4x per day?
If a block took 5x longer, then the difficulty would drop 10%.
Is it acceptable for the difficulty to drop by 10% due to randomness 4x per day?
10:18
This seems like a sign that 600-second per block is too slow. The target block period is a limitation on how quickly we can retarget.
10:19
bitcoin and ethereum both use N=2048.
Amoveo currently uses N=2000.
Amoveo currently uses N=2000.
10:20
if we copied Ethereum's strategy, it is likely that we can't safely reduce N below 2048.
10:28
Maybe we should keep track of the exponential weighted average, and only retarget if it exceeds some factor of 2 range.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
11:43
Deleted Account
Hello guys, I type the commands, but nothing happen...
11:43
11:44
Z
11:45
Zack
erlang commands end with a period.
"."
"."
11:46
Deleted Account
My fault...
11:50
Does this download the header automaticly ?
11:50
11:51
It is always the same number
MF
11:51
Mr Flintstone
I think you might need to update your node software
11:51
Deleted Account
Em.... how😢
11:57
Maybe I know something, I use the" sync:start()." to download the blocks
MF
11:58
Mr Flintstone
check out the GitHub instructions for setting up a full node
Z
11:58
Zack
turn it off. then
git pull then turn it on.
12:00
Deleted Account
Ok, thans, I will try it
Z
12:42
Zack
I am feeling concerned about the assassination market possibility.
You can use hashes to reveal an Oracle question to some people before others.
So you might not even know that someone put a bounty on you.
So you wouldn't know to fake your death.
If something dangerous is coming, we need a plan to protect everyone.
We cannot prevent the progress of technology, but we can prepare for it.
You can use hashes to reveal an Oracle question to some people before others.
So you might not even know that someone put a bounty on you.
So you wouldn't know to fake your death.
If something dangerous is coming, we need a plan to protect everyone.
We cannot prevent the progress of technology, but we can prepare for it.
S
12:45
Sebsebzen
But if enough people answer with bad question, it wouldn't give reward, right?
Z
13:02
Zack
Right.
But we couldn't stop someone from making a fork of amoveo that answers these questions.
But we couldn't stop someone from making a fork of amoveo that answers these questions.
S
13:06
Sebsebzen
But then there hardly would be a market
Z
13:12
Zack
Why not?
A fork could get popular.
A fork could get popular.
13:20
Deleted Account
You mean a client puts hashed bounty question, and then share the question secretly to killers off-chain?
13:22
So only the client and the killer knows which question to bet to get the bounty.
B
13:33
Ben
for me 1) Diff algo 2) Node Improvements 3) Multi Sig
13:37
Deleted Account
the assassin should has the way the person dies
13:37
hash
13:37
then reveal after kill
13:38
then oracle knows who to pay
DY
13:44
Demi Yilmaz
I support zackoshis more than mveo. But I'm okay with both.
13:49
According to Theory of Constraints:
When it comes to which task to do, you should think about the4 goal first. What is the goal? Get more people on board?
If so, which one of these tasks turn in to more people quicker than others?
When you build a feature that will not be used today but in the future, you're increasing inventory. The more you increase inventory the less likely your project succeeds. You need throughput (you need to do tasks reach the goal today).
switch to mveo in light node (4 hours)
version tracking (4 hours)
cominatorial market (15 hours)
diff adjustment (30 hours)
multisig (30 hours)
When it comes to which task to do, you should think about the4 goal first. What is the goal? Get more people on board?
If so, which one of these tasks turn in to more people quicker than others?
When you build a feature that will not be used today but in the future, you're increasing inventory. The more you increase inventory the less likely your project succeeds. You need throughput (you need to do tasks reach the goal today).
switch to mveo in light node (4 hours)
version tracking (4 hours)
cominatorial market (15 hours)
diff adjustment (30 hours)
multisig (30 hours)
14:10
Deleted Account
14:12
Something weird
B
14:13
Ben
maybe missing deps, try rebar update
14:15
Deleted Account
I follow the steps to download again, it shows this
14:33
Deleted Account
Try
make killall
make prod-restart
14:36
Deleted Account
Ok I have a try
IP
14:40
I P
sorry, was asleep and missed the discussion @potat_o priority to mVeo switch would be very nice indeed. Also need that integrated with exchanges
AK
IP
14:40
I P
so that people don't buy 1 mveo for the price of 1 veo accidentally. Also mveo switch requiring only 4 hours of coding instead of 30 hours for diff retarget seems a nobrainer to me
14:54
Another small question, Are btcd and bitcoind same?
N
15:45
NM$L
hi
15:48
Ask for help, it takes you 3 mintues, anybody who help me , I will send 0.01veo to him. PM me if you want.
15:52
Deleted Account
The assasination market «breakthrough» worries me as well. It might happen to a really unpopular person first, then its bound to become easier every time, eventually becoming the norm. Like the US drone programs
15:59
Deleted Account
Hello guys, Do you know how to get a bitcoin address using bitcoind
15:59
16:00
Deleted Account
Wrt versioning, i believe its not really necessary, and we should steer away from going directly to the git repo. The ideal solution would be to have all peers share version info during handshake. Then let the light wallet know if it is older than many/most peers
16:00
Deleted Account
Only the wallet info, no account, but how to check the address?
16:01
16:03
Deleted Account
We could right now add a new version that specifies that we are sending Giga-new-veo or something, but no real change in the wallet, then in a later version move the decimal point. This way old and new version users get a heads up during the transition. My vote would go to moving the decimal 6 places. Or just call them zatoshis and not move the decimal :)
16:22
Deleted Account
Wrt assasination markets the community need good rules for «invalid question». Perhaps any question with outside ‘secret’ references should always be a bad question...
18:16
Deleted Account
What does it mean? The state channel is not turing complete but be capable of runing turing complete smart contracts
18:17
Deleted Account
Zack Hello,guys, how to check the address and account? And the balance is 0, how to get some coins?
DY
18:29
Demi Yilmaz
18:30
Deleted Account
Thank you , I don't know which is my address, Can I use the command to find my address
DY
18:32
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
If you have only your private key, go to zack wallet:
http://159.65.120.84:8080/wallet.html
upload your private key and it will show you your pubkey.
http://159.65.120.84:8080/wallet.html
upload your private key and it will show you your pubkey.
18:33
Make sure the wallet link is correct by entereing it through here -> https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo#light-node
18:33
Deleted Account
Thank you very much
AK
18:43
A K
Any easy way to view mining pools %% share?
18:48
found
18:48
it's not very OK
18:48
veopool.pw 95% ?
AK
19:04
A K
what's the risk, double spends? no one is disturbed? 😅
IP
19:15
@Simon3456 is an owner of veopool and big supporter of veo. Also blocks are slow right now so it is easy to detect a double spend
AK
19:16
A K
Tnx
19:17
Long term would benefit to have more competition, right?
IP
19:18
I P
In reply to this message
well we had more competition and will have more competition. big miners chose veopool because it had worker support when other pools did not
19:19
now all the pools have it i guess, but many miners left after price dump. os when new miners come they will go to other pools because they offer lower fee
D
IP
D
19:29
If not, + for mVEO
19:29
Deleted Account
What does it mean? The state channel is not turing complete but be capable of runing turing complete smart contracts @zack
IP
19:30
I P
In reply to this message
you don't get it. mveo integration takes very few coding hours. diff adjustment improvement will take days of coding
19:31
this is why mVeo is point number 0, because it is both important for usability by general public and fast and easy to implement
19:32
also the faster we add mVeo the less confusion it will be for people about old Veo and mVeo
D
19:33
Denis
Maybe mVEO 0 than. Anyways it 's more about psychology than real blockchain improvement.
+
19:37
++
In reply to this message
What does moving the decimal on VEO accomplish? Should there be mBTC and mEther by the same rationale? Is there more risk of confusion than convenience ?
ŽM
19:38
Živojin Mirić
Isn't it better to move the decimal but call it just VEO so you keep the name but benefit from marketing side of "cheaper" coins
IP
+
19:38
++
The above not ment for @IP. Would love for anyone to share thoughts.
ŽM
19:39
Živojin Mirić
The community is still small enough to adapt on the change of value with same name or ticker
IP
19:39
I P
In reply to this message
we had a big discussion on this long time ago you just need to search this chatroom
S
+
19:49
++
In reply to this message
For what it’s worth, companies sometimes do “stock splits” but this does not affect the value of the company. In stock land, it actually can serve a real purpose because you can’t buy fractional shares (so the “initial bite size” is too big for some...look at Berkshire Hathaway A shares as an example) but because crytpo has fractionalization, it is more a gimmick of doubtful value and creates a two name nomenclature that can create more confusion than good.
ŽM
19:51
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
well a split analogy would be a fork with bigger supply, this is just moving it but still calling it VEO, I don't know if that's a problem for exchanges to have a somewhat non standard number of decimal after a named unit
19:52
I suppose there are coins with different numbers... but most are forks
DY
19:52
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Yes, we'll support the change. I prefer a hardfork for the protocol changing it so that everything increases by 100.000.000x. So real VEO just becomes $0.000000025.
But it is better if we all just start calling mVeo -> Veo
and Veo -> gVeo or something? This will make it a little confusing for old people but there aren't may people around so we can quickly adapt to it.
But I guess the solution that we're going with is people just start using mVeo instead of Veo. Which is also fine. Has the least amount of mental/physical work.
But it is better if we all just start calling mVeo -> Veo
and Veo -> gVeo or something? This will make it a little confusing for old people but there aren't may people around so we can quickly adapt to it.
But I guess the solution that we're going with is people just start using mVeo instead of Veo. Which is also fine. Has the least amount of mental/physical work.
S
19:55
Sebsebzen
I also would prefer the protocol level change
19:55
it's still possible to change at this point
19:55
but yeah it's more complex
+
19:57
++
In reply to this message
Actually, the “split” in stock land is very different from a fork. A split simply changes the number of shares...it doesn’t affect the business or value. If the share count doubles, the price halves. If you owned 10% pre split, you still own 10% of the biz post split, just more shares and each share at a lower price. But your ownership remained constant and aggregate value doesn’t change.
A fork is more equivalent to creating an entirely new business that copies the first and competes for the same customers. A fork is a copycat competitive business that would have a detrimental impact on the first business.
A fork is more equivalent to creating an entirely new business that copies the first and competes for the same customers. A fork is a copycat competitive business that would have a detrimental impact on the first business.
g
19:58
gh0stOo
can somone send me plz the discord link for amoveo ?
ŽM
20:00
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
yeah that part is different but I didn't even thought as the old chain would live
DY
Z
+
20:15
++
In reply to this message
Also, in stock land, companies with very low prices have a negative taint. The main exchanges won’t even list a stock if the price is too low and so companies with fallen or low prices get relegated to the pink sheets. Brokers won’t custody the stocks. Investors presume something is wrong with the companies otherwise they wouldn’t get there. Shady promoters run penny stock pump and dump schemes.
Crypto will likely have a similar segmentation. Scam projects and failed projects will have penny stock style quotations of very low price per unit. Pump and dump schemes will focus on this segment.
In contrast, the successful projects that build value over time eventually will have highly quoted per unit prices.
Point being, the “marketing benefit” might actually be the opposite. Moving the decimal might just put VEO into the same bucket as all the failures and scams that also trade at a low price per unit.
Crypto will likely have a similar segmentation. Scam projects and failed projects will have penny stock style quotations of very low price per unit. Pump and dump schemes will focus on this segment.
In contrast, the successful projects that build value over time eventually will have highly quoted per unit prices.
Point being, the “marketing benefit” might actually be the opposite. Moving the decimal might just put VEO into the same bucket as all the failures and scams that also trade at a low price per unit.
ŽM
20:17
Živojin Mirić
I think that those "penny" cryptos are in 0-10 satoshi range, 3 decimal places for VEO is not remotely near to that and we all suppose that the value in dollars is gonna go up
Z
AK
20:18
A K
ŽM
20:19
Živojin Mirić
I don't want to stir it up some more, this topic was discussed and I'm on mVEO side of it and I'm happy to see that respectable community members are for that too
AK
20:19
A K
at least stellar ripple tron iota )
OK
20:21
Seems burdensome to send millions of something, but I'm not used to dealing with small currencies
ŽM
20:21
Živojin Mirić
well that would be a rare thing in crypto
20:23
moving to mVEO value is going in the popularity direction and removing the decimals completely is maybe worse than the current state for popularity
OK
20:23
O K
👍
sd
20:23
steel dan
In reply to this message
catweed I have the same problem (you answered previously) on ubuntu 18.04 only, i.e. , $ make prod-attach
Node is not running!
Makefile:144: recipe for target 'attach' failed
make: *** [attach] Error but the commands make killall
make prod-restart don't correct it. Do you know what causes the problem?
Node is not running!
Makefile:144: recipe for target 'attach' failed
make: *** [attach] Error but the commands make killall
make prod-restart don't correct it. Do you know what causes the problem?
Z
20:26
Zack
Does Ubuntu 18.04 work for Amoveo?
20:28
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
A state channel that can run smart contracts isn't a turing complete channel? What's the difference
sd
20:29
steel dan
In reply to this message
Zack no, the problem is still pending , but I read previously that someone had the same error message and problem , catweed proposed a solution, and the user who reported the problem said it worked for him
20:30
it's a mystery how to solve it ... I can run the node on ubu 16.04
Z
+
20:35
++
In reply to this message
Segment the top 20 crytpos by market cap into group 1 and all others into group 2.
There will be a disproportionately larger percentage representation of high per unit price crytpos in group 1 than group 2.
Or, to put it differently, if you had to randomly pick from a pool of crytpos that had high per unit prices or a pool of cryptos that had low per unit prices, you are far more likely to have picked a scam or fraud from the low per unit price pool.
There are no doubt exceptions to the rule but if the goal is “marketing”, it is likely better to be associated with the high price pool of successful projects that have built real value than the low price pool of projects that have failed or scammed.
Also, those projects will low prices and high market caps now will have a real marketability problem if their market cap falls and people have to deal with all the cumbersome zeros after the decimal. We don’t even have a system of commas to ease the burden of reading when the zeros are right of the decimal rather than left of the decimal point.
There will be a disproportionately larger percentage representation of high per unit price crytpos in group 1 than group 2.
Or, to put it differently, if you had to randomly pick from a pool of crytpos that had high per unit prices or a pool of cryptos that had low per unit prices, you are far more likely to have picked a scam or fraud from the low per unit price pool.
There are no doubt exceptions to the rule but if the goal is “marketing”, it is likely better to be associated with the high price pool of successful projects that have built real value than the low price pool of projects that have failed or scammed.
Also, those projects will low prices and high market caps now will have a real marketability problem if their market cap falls and people have to deal with all the cumbersome zeros after the decimal. We don’t even have a system of commas to ease the burden of reading when the zeros are right of the decimal rather than left of the decimal point.
ŽM
20:40
Živojin Mirić
Well you are comparing mature coins, Amoveo is still small and it will grow a lot so starting point of 0.3$ is ok for your argument
20:43
Those "expensive" ones did not start with 300$
MF
20:54
Mr Flintstone
keep in mind that the kinds of investors that lower price per unit attract will likely impute more volatility into veo
20:55
not like it isn’t already volatile though lol
AK
+
21:00
++
In reply to this message
I don’t disagree.
I suppose all I’m saying is that devoting time to something that simply changes the optics of how something gets quoted on an exchange or viewed on coinmarketcap doesn’t actually enhance the value proposition to VEO users or the quotational value of VEO’s market cap compared to other things.
I suppose all I’m saying is that devoting time to something that simply changes the optics of how something gets quoted on an exchange or viewed on coinmarketcap doesn’t actually enhance the value proposition to VEO users or the quotational value of VEO’s market cap compared to other things.
ŽM
21:02
Živojin Mirić
it does not give true value but look at it from a marketing perspective, a new logo does not do the stuff you mentioned either
21:02
but we all agree that it's good to have and time was spent on it
21:02
the world around us is not as technical and rational as we want it to be :)
+
21:09
++
In reply to this message
Marketing folk might disagree about a logo.
Customer adoption of a product can be impacted by aesthetic considerations and branding. A logo is part of that interface with the customer/user.
Easier to make the case that the Apple logo plays a larger role in drumming up good feelings around user experiences than the quotational price of its stock.
Customer adoption of a product can be impacted by aesthetic considerations and branding. A logo is part of that interface with the customer/user.
Easier to make the case that the Apple logo plays a larger role in drumming up good feelings around user experiences than the quotational price of its stock.
21:14
I suppose you can think of marketing to users and marketing to investors. Many businesses get distracted by efforts to market to investors when it is actually successful marketing to users/customers that drives the fundamental value.
DK
21:17
Deve Kliman
We were talking in my chat about problems with assassination markets developing on veo. How would you address bets for people to live past next Thursday?
f
MF
21:26
Mr Flintstone
I dont think balance multiplication in-protocol is trivial
21:26
and it doesn’t make sense to use dev resources to do that when out of protocol decimal shift is the same shit
21:32
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
ful node works fine on Ubuntu18.04.
try
try
make prod-clean after make killall then make prod-restart
21:36
Ubuntu 18.04 uses python3 as default, so test scripts does not work though (urllib module is obsolete).
sd
21:36
OK
21:37
git clone https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
21:37
also just reboot before you build
21:37
are you up to date on everything
21:37
sudo apt update; sudo apt upgrade
sd
21:38
many times
21:38
Deleted Account
so fresh clone is better. it should work.
OK
21:38
O K
It's not the build or ubuntu, in my opinion
sd
21:38
steel dan
here is the testnet.log
OK
21:38
O K
Who is your provider?
sd
21:39
In reply to this message
you mean internet provider? in the ubu 16.04 virtualbox vm inside ubu 18.04, it works fine
OK
21:39
O K
You're local
21:40
Your OS is Ubuntu 16.04 and you're running an 18.04 virtual machine?
sd
21:41
steel dan
the other way round/ my OS is Ubuntu 18.04 and Im running an 16.04 virtual machine
21:43
21:43
one more clue maybe ^^^
21:45
the same is updated and I have repeated the cycle rm -r /amoveo etc , reboot, git clone, etc many times
OK
21:46
O K
But I had another step, installing dependencies
sd
21:46
steel dan
yes I have installed them
OK
21:46
O K
Again
sd
21:46
steel dan
btw, ranch seems to be the culprit
21:46
2018-07-27 16:34:48.363 [debug] <0.715.0> Supervisor {<0.715.0>,ranch_acceptors_sup} started ranch_acceptor:start_link(#Port<0.1232>, ranch_tcp, <0.714.0>) at pid <0.742.0>
21:46
this is where it stops
OK
21:46
O K
Perhaps it's a networking issue because of the VM
sd
21:46
steel dan
the VM works fine
OK
21:46
O K
Getting a node built and attached is honestly pretty straightforward
21:47
I didn't say the VM did or did not work fine
sd
21:47
steel dan
the native OS fucks up
21:47
aaaa ok
OK
21:47
O K
I'm suggesting the default config might cause issues, I don't know
sd
21:47
steel dan
and the node launch fails somewhere during ranch erlang lib starting
OK
21:48
O K
Using the node/getting it synced frequently causes confusion -- but this hangup I believe is specific to your configuration
sd
21:48
steel dan
you can see it in testnet.log
OK
21:48
O K
I looked at the logs
sd
21:49
steel dan
In reply to this message
I can't even manage to run make prod-attach successfully, I dont even start sync
OK
21:49
O K
I know, that's my point
sd
21:49
steel dan
the whole thing fails from the first steps
OK
21:49
O K
Attach is a simple command to show you the running node
21:49
It cannot attach because it never was successfully running
sd
21:50
steel dan
yeah, the erlang system does not even manage to start all processes / generic servers of the node system
OK
21:51
O K
Yes I know. It's a problem on your specific configuration. I don't know why.
https://github.com/ninenines/ranch
Ranch seems to be networking related. I don't know much about it. But that's why I guessed that
https://github.com/ninenines/ranch
Ranch seems to be networking related. I don't know much about it. But that's why I guessed that
sd
21:53
steel dan
Interesting thoought, thanks. I also tried rebar update today, nothing changed
OK
21:53
O K
If it's a recent clone/build , I don't think the rebar update is applicable
sd
21:54
steel dan
it;s a new git clone repo that i used , yes
OK
21:54
O K
It should build with up-to-date rebar then
sd
21:56
steel dan
the amoveo repo contains rebar3 all the times however
21:57
I read previously that I could try rebar update. but it should not be applicable here, i think
21:57
regardless, the end result is the same
OK
21:58
O K
Personally I'd install a lite variant of ubuntu like Lubuntu 16.04 to a USB stick, boot from that, and do my install there
21:59
If that works, you know it's some problem with your configuration
sd
21:59
steel dan
yeah, this ubu 18.04 system of mine is overloaded with many libs and software, true
OK
22:00
O K
I only suggest that as a matter of time saving, since this troubleshooting is taking quite awhile and a USB stick trial wouldn't take too long, besides the install which can happen while you do other things
22:01
An AWS free instance could also be running in a matter of a few minutes, and would cost you nothing
sd
22:02
steel dan
indeed, btw, I can also run the full node via virtualbox+ ubu 16.04 VM when running windows
22:02
all VMs run fine
22:02
(with amoveo)
OK
22:02
O K
In reply to this message
This has the added benefit of easy networking and not exposing your IP to all of us
sd
22:03
steel dan
indeed
OK
sd
22:04
steel dan
even on WIN8.1 ! crazy
22:05
and ubu 18.04 ofc
OK
22:05
O K
I have built the amoveo node on arch linux before
sd
22:06
those erlang dumps are hell
sd
22:39
steel dan
@potat_o I ran this useful command in order to read the dump file: steliox@steliox-MS-7917:~/amoveo/_build/prod/rel/amoveo_core$ '/usr/lib/erlang/lib/observer-2.6/priv/bin/cdv' '/home/steliox/amoveo/_build/prod/rel/amoveo_core/erl_crash.dump'
22:40
(using erlang's crash dump viewer from erlang observer app)
Z
22:52
Zack
In reply to this message
Thank you for the suggestion Steel, I didn't know there was a crash dump viewer tool.
A
Deleted invited Deleted Account
28 July 2018
00:07
Deleted Account
cheers guys, i would like to buy some VEO..whats the best option?
DY
00:08
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
I'd say using https://amoveo.exchange/trade/index
But I want to ask where did you see Veo and what made you decide to buy it?
But I want to ask where did you see Veo and what made you decide to buy it?
sd
00:09
steel dan
In reply to this message
Observer + debugger apps are recommended by the erlang creator, J Armstrong, in his book, yes
00:10
Zack I also found a way to integrate the debugger in amoveo app.
00:10
added some deps:
{application, amoveo_core,
[
{description, "blockchain"},
{vsn, "0.1.0"},
{registered, []},
{applications, [
kernel,
stdlib,
ssl,
debugger, wx, reltool, erts, wx, observer, tools, sasl,
erts, compiler , et, runtime_tools,
inets,
jiffy,
dump,
trie,
pink_hash,
chalang,
amoveo_http,
lager,
encrypter
]},
{modules, []},
{mod, { testnet_app, []}},
{env, [
{error_logger, {file, "log.db"}}
]}
]}.
the file: amoveo_core.app.src
u simply activate them whenever you want via the shell:
debugger:start().
observer:start().
I recompiled first, i,e, make prod-restart
{application, amoveo_core,
[
{description, "blockchain"},
{vsn, "0.1.0"},
{registered, []},
{applications, [
kernel,
stdlib,
ssl,
debugger, wx, reltool, erts, wx, observer, tools, sasl,
erts, compiler , et, runtime_tools,
inets,
jiffy,
dump,
trie,
pink_hash,
chalang,
amoveo_http,
lager,
encrypter
]},
{modules, []},
{mod, { testnet_app, []}},
{env, [
{error_logger, {file, "log.db"}}
]}
]}.
the file: amoveo_core.app.src
u simply activate them whenever you want via the shell:
debugger:start().
observer:start().
I recompiled first, i,e, make prod-restart
00:11
Zack I also found how to solve the following error in the testnet.log
00:12
2018-06-15 01:44:28.010 [warning] <0.534.0> lager_error_logger_h dropped 172 messages in the last second that exceeded the limit of 50 messages/sec
2018-06-15 01:44:28.316 [debug] <0.630.0>@lager_handler_watcher:119 Lager installed handler lager_backend_throttle into lager_event
2018-06-15 01:44:28.316 [debug] <0.630.0>@lager_handler_watcher:119 Lager installed handler lager_backend_throttle into lager_event
00:12
the solution is:
00:12
replace :
error_logger_hwm, 50
with :
error_logger_hwm, 10000
error_logger_hwm, 50
with :
error_logger_hwm, 10000
00:12
inside the project.....
00:12
it has to do with the lager dependency
00:14
Zack There is also this tool: https://github.com/ferd/recon/blob/master/script/erl_crashdump_analyzer.sh
00:14
You simply run : steliox@steliox-MS-7917:~/amoveo/_build/prod/rel/amoveo_core$ sh ./erl_crashdump_analyzer.sh '/home/steliox/amoveo/_build/prod/rel/amoveo_core/erl_crash.dump'
Z
00:15
Zack
thanks for the suggestions steel.
Z
06:12
Zack
Assassination markets are terrifying.
We need to make a plan for how to save as many people as possible.
What can I do to be ready? What should I avoid doing?
We need to make a plan for how to save as many people as possible.
What can I do to be ready? What should I avoid doing?
OK
06:23
O K
What if the market is for someone who kills people and the assasination would save people
Z
06:28
Zack
Markets are a tool. Tools can be used for good and bad.
We still have time to prepare ourselves before this tool becomes widespread.
My desire is that no one gets hurt.
We can use markets to take away power from dangerous people, without having to hurt anyone.
We know what is coming before everyone else, it is our duty to warn them so that they can prepare.
We still have time to prepare ourselves before this tool becomes widespread.
My desire is that no one gets hurt.
We can use markets to take away power from dangerous people, without having to hurt anyone.
We know what is coming before everyone else, it is our duty to warn them so that they can prepare.
JL
06:40
Josh L
Wow
06:40
Price pumped
sd
06:40
steel dan
Zack can you elaborate on how a hashed description of an oracle can stealthily fund an assassination? if the oracle question is not readable (it's hashed), then it;s not a public knowledge
JL
06:41
Josh L
.58 eth
06:41
Lets check btc price
sd
06:41
steel dan
so, there is no danger.... if it's a private contract assigned to a small circle of contractors, then this is like the old way of business, the oracle is useless, amoveo is not responsible
JL
06:42
Josh L
Low btc price
06:43
Other exchanges?
MF
06:43
Mr Flintstone
yeah, I’m not sure the oracle would be reliable unless the preimage is widespread knowledge
06:44
I think there will just be a few forks
06:44
with valuable coins on each
06:48
chains with oracles will develop sets of norms around resolution
06:48
I do not think they will not always be the same
06:49
they will always be*
Z
06:56
Zack
In reply to this message
It is revealed after the assassination is complete. Then oracle resolution is possible.
sd
06:58
steel dan
so it will be announced via a posted message on the blockchain right? and the oracle will act as input in a dominant assurance contract?
06:59
well maybe the community will establish a custom to resolve oracles with anything extreme as bad questions and neutralize them...
07:00
after this happens a few times, they won't dare do it again
07:04
whales will have a motive to do so, i.e. bet on bad question, since otherwise, mining pools, exchanges etc. will be considered instigators (and forced to close down) and the coins will lose their value
07:04
Zack I hope I gave you hope...
AS
07:05
Aizen Sou
Make it user friendly first before thinking about anything else
Z
07:05
Zack
That doesn't stop people from launching a clone of amoveo for assassination markets.
We need a plan to protect everyone.
We need a plan to protect everyone.
AS
07:06
Aizen Sou
Otherwise Amoveo will be a nice tool for bunch of nerds like us for next few years, or simply die
sd
07:06
steel dan
In reply to this message
Yes, but forks will also have the same concern.... if the coin of the fork acts as an instigator it will be banned from the real economy and lose its value
07:08
Zack check what happened to monero: it was used as a payment medium for ransomware against exchanges in japan, and then exchanges banned monero in japan.. its price fell
Z
07:09
Zack
I think we should make a document of safety strategies. Then we should contact people with specialized education who can improve our safety tips.
Then we should share the safety tips widely. To save as many people as we can.
Then we should share the safety tips widely. To save as many people as we can.
sd
07:09
steel dan
besides, all currencies finance evil acts, wars, since the beginning of historyetc.
Z
07:09
Zack
Small lifestyle changes might significantly improve the survival rate.
AS
07:10
Aizen Sou
No one will use Amoveo at its current state, Zacl
07:10
Face the truth
MF
07:33
Mr Flintstone
is this a ux comment?
07:34
idk how many times I’ve said it but zack should be focusing on things that zack is specialized at
07:34
layering ux onto an existing chain is something literally any of us could do
+
07:35
++
In reply to this message
Can you introduce a bounty curation layer? Or collaborate with folks that do that sort of thing ? I think @chejazi might be helpful on that front.
AS
07:36
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
I don't blame Zack for the ux but i do blame him for the current block time
08:55
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Thanks for the mention. For the record I work on Cent which does social eth bounties. Right now the only parties involved have been mostly miners and investors and Zack (maybe a few other devs?). That's why we're bickering about slow block times -- in reality, the technology is much further ahead than other platforms and we could really use some community building. For instance the Reddit is dead. It doesn't even link to the discord or the telegram. For some people, community management is their core competency. We can do a better job outsourcing work. Even development work too- it would be nice to have a formalized process for changes like BIPs so triaging features isn't done by preference listing on telegram. And I know this is touchy, but you (Zack) really ought to fund the people who can build out these aspects of a network. Is community building novel? No. Is it essential? Absolutely, especially if your technology is above the rest. This isn't Bitcoin in 2009 when no competitors existed. The fact is there is a sea of noise and we're pretty much being drowned out right now.
Sorry for the rant. Happy to help in any way I can.
Sorry for the rant. Happy to help in any way I can.
sd
09:39
steel dan
Zack is the port compiler (pc) inclusion in rebar.config an old remnant/ obsolete? where is it useful? I mean: {plugins, [pc]},
Z
10:09
Zack
I am not sure. it might be obsolete.
10:10
maybe jiffy needs it
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
Z
12:42
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/commit/a04a8e5e28ea41e9afeb2c07115c25011b758762
Here is an alternative retargeting protocol we could use.
It keeps track of an estimate of the current hashrate by doing exponential weighting of the blocks so that the most recent block counts for 5% of the weight.
If this value is below 8 minutes, then the difficulty increases to get it above 8 minutes.
If this value is above 16 minutes, then the difficulty decreases to get it below 16 minutes.
The tests are passing, it looks like syncing works too.
Here is an alternative retargeting protocol we could use.
It keeps track of an estimate of the current hashrate by doing exponential weighting of the blocks so that the most recent block counts for 5% of the weight.
If this value is below 8 minutes, then the difficulty increases to get it above 8 minutes.
If this value is above 16 minutes, then the difficulty decreases to get it below 16 minutes.
The tests are passing, it looks like syncing works too.
MF
12:43
Mr Flintstone
awesome
12:43
what is randomness source
Z
MF
12:44
Mr Flintstone
for the exponential weighting
Z
12:44
Zack
exponential weighting does not involve randomness.
MF
12:45
Mr Flintstone
you used the word random between exponential and weighting
12:45
lol
Z
12:45
Zack
you are right. it was a random "random" typo.
DY
Z
12:47
Zack
This protocol has some nice properties:
if the hashrate increases 3x, then the difficulty will increase 3x within about 20 blocks.
If 6 blocks are mined in 1 second, the difficult remains unchanged.
if the hashrate increases 3x, then the difficulty will increase 3x within about 20 blocks.
If 6 blocks are mined in 1 second, the difficult remains unchanged.
DY
MF
12:48
Mr Flintstone
so if the value is 20 minutes for example
12:49
will next diff decrease by ~20/16-1 = 25%
12:49
for the next block?
Z
MF
12:50
Mr Flintstone
Output of exponential weighting
12:50
of the realized block times
Z
12:50
Zack
right, if blocks were consistently taking 20 minutes, then difficulty would have to increase by about 25%
DY
12:51
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
From this I understand that the diff adjustment will be constantly happening not every 1000 blocks am I correct?
Z
12:51
Zack
to get inside the 8-16 target range
MF
12:51
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
my understanding is that it is now every block iff outside 8-16 range
Z
12:52
In reply to this message
yes, iff the exponential weighted average is outside of the target range
DY
12:52
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
What are the possible negative impacts of diff adjustment on every block?
Z
12:52
Zack
it is actually 6min 40 seconds - 13min 20 seconds
MF
12:54
Mr Flintstone
the trade off of smaller band is more oscillations?
Z
12:58
Zack
our exponential random weighting is approximately averaging the last 20 blocks.
bitcoin/eth estimate by looking at the most recent 2000 blocks.
So this means instead of having tendencies to oscillate in 4000 block periods, we have a tendency to oscillate in 40 block periods.
Since we target a range of size 2x, we will be able to prevent any oscillations where the hashrate is changing by less than a factor of 2.
bitcoin/eth estimate by looking at the most recent 2000 blocks.
So this means instead of having tendencies to oscillate in 4000 block periods, we have a tendency to oscillate in 40 block periods.
Since we target a range of size 2x, we will be able to prevent any oscillations where the hashrate is changing by less than a factor of 2.
12:59
It seems unlikely that 1/2 of our hashrate could disappear and reappear within about 40 blocks = 400 minutes = 6 hours 40 minutes.
MF
13:00
Mr Flintstone
yeah
13:00
I think this makes sense
Z
13:01
Zack
What worries me is that Ethereum is not using a technique like this.
It isn't very often that I am able to invent something new that is this much better than any existing methods.
There must be some reason that no one else does it this way.
It isn't very often that I am able to invent something new that is this much better than any existing methods.
There must be some reason that no one else does it this way.
DY
13:02
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
I dont agree with this, veo is small, and you saw how much hash rate we lost when the chinese miners left
Z
13:03
Zack
This retargeting is about 100x faster than ethereum or bitcoin.
13:07
I fixed the problem that was making integration tests randomly fail.
I just had to lower the target block period.
I just had to lower the target block period.
DY
13:09
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/65868/why-was-it-chosen-to-adjust-difficulty-every-2-weeks-rather-than-2-days-or-ever
I guess this is the reason. But weighted adjustment *probably* solves this problem.
I guess this is the reason. But weighted adjustment *probably* solves this problem.
13:10
In reply to this message
"Yes, there is a risk with adjusting the difficulty every block. It entirely depends on the method of adjusting. With how Bitcoin does it, if you adjusted every block, the difficulty would vary wildly due to the variance in times between blocks. However other algorithms for determining the difficulty may be able to account for that.
Adjusting every 2 weeks allows for the average time between blocks to be close to the actual time between blocks (by the law of large numbers) so that the adjustment can happen without being effected by the variance in times between blocks. The method used by Satoshi is very simple and straightforward with its effects easy to see and model.
Like almost every other "magic number" used in Bitcoin, the 2 week interval appears to simply be an arbitrary number with no real reasoning behind it."
Adjusting every 2 weeks allows for the average time between blocks to be close to the actual time between blocks (by the law of large numbers) so that the adjustment can happen without being effected by the variance in times between blocks. The method used by Satoshi is very simple and straightforward with its effects easy to see and model.
Like almost every other "magic number" used in Bitcoin, the 2 week interval appears to simply be an arbitrary number with no real reasoning behind it."
Z
13:17
Zack
The new retargetting code is able to sync all existing blocks from the main net.
14:08
Deleted Account
Wrt assasination markets: we should have a super-amoveo with questions like: is fork x a benevolent chain? If x is an assasination market fork, it is somehow disabled (if only that were possible...)
14:09
By now there are at least three prediction markets that could be used as assasination markets. So this problem is not for Amoveo alone to solve
14:11
I have a strong feeling that we beed to state the rules of prediction markets in a short and clear way, and leave it to humans to always make such markets end up as «bad question»
14:12
The person to write these rules might go down in history, so let that be the bounty for writing them
IP
14:16
I P
In reply to this message
isn't there any kind of an attack able to exploit such fast retargetting?
14:20
Deleted Account
An assasination fork will be less valuable than the main fork. Having a clear set of rules will further reduce the value, as many humans have rule based ethics.
14:24
As per now the rule of prediction markets might be something like: «Rule 1: Any oracle where the nature of the question itself is changed by information disclosed after the oracle creation is to be voted a bad question»
14:26
These rules need to be instilled in as many humans as possible. And they apply to all prediction markets. Any markets not following these rules might be considered «evil»
14:27
This is where blockchain does not apply anymore. We created a weapon, the rest is ethics. And it might get ugly
14:29
I would thing eg. there would be many people who would pay $100 to get Trump killed just for laughs. Its not funny when there are millions og these people
14:32
Alternative rule: «Rule 1: an oracle is answered based on the nature of the question as it might be understood at the time of creation. If events occur before finalizing an oracle change the nature of the question, that question is a «bad question»»
14:35
Incidentally that uncovers a way to cheat the system. Eg you might make an unclear question, knowing that a commercial wil be aired at a later time, making the oracle question sensible to most people then. In that case the bets should be cancelled. The person to control the airing of the commercial will be able to decide wether or not any bets will be valid
J
IP
15:58
I P
well user friendly interface is important, but Zack is no UI/UX guru. Better if focuses on blockchain design and core developement. I hope we find people who can do UI/UX
15:59
so basically with assassination markets we bid on bad question and if oracle does not close as bad question we fork the chain where this oracle state outcome is bad question, correct?
16:00
Zack did i understand it right?
AS
18:42
In reply to this message
Sorry but u r wrong. At current hashrate any middle farm could perform such attack
19:02
Deleted Account
Attack: a medium sized mining farm alternates between Amoveo and another similar currency every x hours. They gain an unfair advantage :)
19:02
Like Aizen said I guess
IP
19:03
I P
In reply to this message
doesn't need to be similar currency. switch between eth and veo for example
19:04
you need different overclock parameter for veo and eth, sure, but this can be done through software easy.
AK
19:09
A K
Any hints on veo overclock?
IP
19:13
I P
overclock core- easy
22:12
Deleted Account
Overclock core underclock mem. Mem underclocking does not save much power in my experience
22:12
@kitty123 if you had two similar you might have the same effect in both currencies
AK
22:54
A K
tnx!
29 July 2018
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
+
01:47
++
Trying to understand @tallakt ‘s proposal for assassination markets. Is it: just fork and forked chain is less valuable?
Why is that better than actually creating incentives around flagging ethically challenged bets? Imagine if there was a bounty for anyone that flagged a market for an assassination and that market was shut down. Even better if the participants on that market could be penalized in some way.
A key differentiator between Amazon and Silkroad is curation. One curates it’s product offering to sell to the mainstream market worth trillions while the other curates to accommodate a smaller niche. Seems Amoveo needs to decide how it wants to curate its marketplace of markets. Not sure constant forking gets you there.
@chejazi’s project tackles the question of creating incentives around curation and that might be relevant here.
Why is that better than actually creating incentives around flagging ethically challenged bets? Imagine if there was a bounty for anyone that flagged a market for an assassination and that market was shut down. Even better if the participants on that market could be penalized in some way.
A key differentiator between Amazon and Silkroad is curation. One curates it’s product offering to sell to the mainstream market worth trillions while the other curates to accommodate a smaller niche. Seems Amoveo needs to decide how it wants to curate its marketplace of markets. Not sure constant forking gets you there.
@chejazi’s project tackles the question of creating incentives around curation and that might be relevant here.
02:51
Deleted Account
> Imagine if there was a bounty for anyone that flagged a market for an assassination and that market was shut down. Even better if the participants on that market could be penalized in some way.
Yup. There needs to be an incentive + schelling point to voting "Bad question" -- right now only yes/no gets rewarded afaik.
Yup. There needs to be an incentive + schelling point to voting "Bad question" -- right now only yes/no gets rewarded afaik.
02:52
A message hash should count as a bad question if the contents of the hash aren't publicly accessible (e.g. on IPFS)
Z
05:04
Zack
Even if we can prevent assassinations on Amoveo, that doesn't stop others from making a clone of Amoveo dedicated to assassinations.
We need to make a plan to protect everyone.
We need to make a plan to protect everyone.
IP
05:11
people die all the time
05:13
only thing we can do is bet on bad question and fork the network if oracle resolves not to bad question
Z
05:13
Zack
I think that people are more likely to share information on how to stay safe from skynet, in comparison to how likely they are to share anything else about Amoveo.
05:13
If we do some work to make a plan to protect people, it will cause more people to learn about Amoveo as a side-effect.
IP
05:13
I P
but i don't see any use for prediction markets for assassinations on chains where there is no tx shielding
Z
05:14
Zack
It also shows that we are responsible people, not opening pandora's box
05:14
If assassination markets become a problem, I don't want to be the person blamed for it.
IP
05:15
I P
they won't become any real problem
05:15
amoveo, augur, aeternity has 0 privacy features
Z
05:16
Zack
does not matter.
05:17
IP, you should do studying before spreading misinformation.
IP
05:20
I P
well i might be wrong but i don't remeber zero-knowledge proofs or smth like that for any of the mentioned
Z
05:21
Zack
you don't need zero knowledge proofs for assassination markets.
They are not related at all.
They are not related at all.
IP
05:22
I P
In reply to this message
well, if there is no tx shielding it is possible to trace who paid money to whom with assassination markets
OK
Z
05:22
Zack
It is good to ask questions and learn.
It is good to share truthful information you are confident about.
It is bad to make assumptions and spread false information.
It is good to share truthful information you are confident about.
It is bad to make assumptions and spread false information.
IP
05:22
I P
am i not right?
Z
05:23
Zack
you are wrong.
cryptocurrency has pseudo anonymity already.
Even if they can find out which address paid for the assassination, that doesn't mean they can find out which human owned that address.
cryptocurrency has pseudo anonymity already.
Even if they can find out which address paid for the assassination, that doesn't mean they can find out which human owned that address.
05:24
In reply to this message
Because???
Have you done the game theory yet?
It looks to me like a lot of people will die.
Have you done the game theory yet?
It looks to me like a lot of people will die.
IP
05:25
I P
In reply to this message
find which address paid, which address got money. find out how first address got his money, find out how 2nd address spent his money.. connect everything and you can find people
Z
05:26
Zack
The big problem is that when people kill strangers, they almost never get caught.
The reason most murderers get caught is because they are murdering their spouse or parent or business partner.
The reason most murderers get caught is because they are murdering their spouse or parent or business partner.
05:26
In reply to this message
mixers can completely launder money so you don't know where it came from.
IP
05:26
I P
it will be really really hard to spend the blood money without getting caught on a blockchain without tx shielding
05:27
In reply to this message
well, did not think about it because did not see mixers working on veo
05:31
also thing is assassinations were abundant before blockchains
Z
05:31
Zack
even if it isn't possible to do assassination markets on Amoveo, that doesn't prevent people from making a clone dedicated to assassinations.
IP
05:32
I P
In reply to this message
well noone can stop people from cloning bitcoin. will the cloned bitcoin be worth anything? hardly
05:32
same with veo
Z
05:32
Zack
Present day assassinations aren't so bad because the conspirators are connected together by a financial trail. So we can often catch the criminals.
IP
Z
05:33
Zack
Plenty of bitcoin clones are valuable.
Assassinations are service in demand. Annual expenditure on military is massive.
The financial incentive to build something like this is big
Assassinations are service in demand. Annual expenditure on military is massive.
The financial incentive to build something like this is big
IP
Z
05:34
Zack
In reply to this message
cash is dangerous, because you have to meet the murderer. And one of you could be wearing a wire.
IP
05:34
I P
bcash has value only becaus of bitmain support
Z
05:35
Zack
a market cap of $1 million is more than enough to be useful for many types of murders.
05:35
there are thousands of blockchains this big
IP
05:35
I P
well we all know it is very illiquid. if you sell 10k$ worth of that 1mln cap it will be 0.5mln cap
Z
05:36
Zack
USA spends about $600 billion on military annually.
So an assassination blockchain could easily be worth hundreds of billions.
So an assassination blockchain could easily be worth hundreds of billions.
IP
05:37
I P
well i guess blockchain is just a tool, can be used for good and bad both
05:38
same with money, you can spend money to save lives or to destroy them
05:38
same with weapons
05:38
same with any technology
Z
05:38
Zack
I am planning to invest about 3 days of my time to make some survival strategies. Then I will share them online.
I don't care if you guys think it is a waste.
Human lives are more important than 3 days of Amoveo development.
I don't care if you guys think it is a waste.
Human lives are more important than 3 days of Amoveo development.
05:39
If we are developing technology that could possible be used for violence, it is our responsibility to also build defensive tools to prevent disasters.
IP
05:40
I P
In reply to this message
we don't think it is a waste, i just think that there is literally nothing that can be done to completely stop ass markets on blockchain. you said it yourself- criminals can make their own blockchain just for that
sd
05:40
steel dan
btc (and amoveo ) txs are totally traceable.... blockchains are the twitter of financial txs... as long as there is no monero or zksnarks technology in amoveo or augur, amoveo is safe Zack
Z
05:40
Zack
Yes, and there is nothing we can do to prevent Earthquakes.
Still, you can greatly improve your chances of survival by making small lifestyle adjustments, and having a plan on what to do if the earthquake happens.
Still, you can greatly improve your chances of survival by making small lifestyle adjustments, and having a plan on what to do if the earthquake happens.
05:41
Deleted Account
Of course Zack , you have right on every point, and maybe another projects can be used for that but not amoveo.
Z
05:41
Zack
In reply to this message
that doesn't prevent someone from making a clone of amoveo dedicated to assassinations.
IP
05:41
I P
In reply to this message
we need to have a plan what to do if people start using ass market on our blockchain
Z
05:42
Zack
preventing assassinations on Amoveo is easy. That is not worth worrying about.
05:42
The problem is that someone could make an assassination dedicated clone.
05:42
Deleted Account
But not for your hands
IP
05:43
I P
In reply to this message
they can use augur for that matter or smth else. they can even write their own blockchain if you think it can be worth hundred billion dollars
Z
05:43
Zack
no, you can't do assassinations on Augur.
sd
05:43
steel dan
In reply to this message
you mean it would be easy as the community bets on on invalid, when hashed oracles come up? or if the mining pools censor and keep out hashed oracles?
IP
05:43
I P
In reply to this message
someone could write their own software from scratch just for ass markets. how can you stop it? you can't
Z
05:43
Zack
the community will bet for invalid.
05:44
We can't stop assassination markets from being made.
What we need to do is make some survival strategies. So that when the assassination markets show up, we will have a plan on how to stay safe.
What we need to do is make some survival strategies. So that when the assassination markets show up, we will have a plan on how to stay safe.
IP
05:45
I P
anyways, people were killing people with literally stones thousands of years ago. people did not change. people will continue to kill each other, can't change nature so soon
Z
05:45
Zack
like how if there is an earthquake you are supposed to go to a doorway. or if there is a hurricane you should avoid windows.
or if there is a fire, you should check if a door is hot before opening it.
or if there is a fire, you should check if a door is hot before opening it.
05:45
People have been sharing survival strategies for millions of years too.
IP
Z
05:46
Zack
if someone is shooting a gun at you, it is best to run in zig-zags.
IP
05:46
I P
In reply to this message
if someone is shooting a gun at you better be in close range with a knife in your hand
05:47
in reality neither works
Z
05:48
Zack
it is very difficult to aim a handgun at someone running in zig zags
sd
05:48
steel dan
Zack the hitmen would also have to allocate the same amount in the oracle, that they wish to receive. they need to gamble capital to get remunerated. Being paid in monero is more practical for nasty acts
IP
05:49
I P
In reply to this message
does not matter for a good shooter. bad shooter will probably miss you anyways
05:49
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Just for the sake of argument. You could use the winnings after assasinating one person to pay for assasination of someone else. It would be inpossible to trace to the assasins
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
IP
05:51
Deleted Account
Scary as hell, because there are a lot of individuals amongst us that would have someone killed if they knew they would not get caught
IP
Z
05:51
Zack
you need an oracle for assassination markets.
IP
05:52
I P
people did not need ass markets to ass people for many years
OK
05:52
O K
😂
05:52
I think we should ass some tyrants
05:53
Then people will praise Zack as a hero
IP
05:53
I P
i'm pretty sure people paid with bitcoin, zcash and monero for ass
OK
05:53
O K
I'd pay for ass
IP
05:53
I P
without any ass markets
Z
05:53
Zack
In reply to this message
it is much better to use futarchy to take away power from the tyrant without killing them.
OK
05:54
O K
I mean putting a bum on them
Z
05:55
Zack
if you use futarchy to take away power from a tyrant, it is profitable, and it helps educate the world so the same flavor of tyranny cannot happen again.
If you use an assassination market to kill them, then you lose money, and there is nothing to stop a new tyrant from replacing the old.
If you use an assassination market to kill them, then you lose money, and there is nothing to stop a new tyrant from replacing the old.
05:55
Plus violence is wrong.
IP
05:56
I P
tyrants won't release their power without violence
OK
05:56
O K
Self defense can be violent, violence is not inherently wrong
05:56
Aggressive violence is wrong
Z
05:56
Zack
futarchy can still be used to take away power from tyrants, even if they don't consent to losing their power.
+
05:56
++
In reply to this message
The goal is admirable but I’m not sure it is realistic. Imagine if the inventor of the knife felt they had to create a universal mechanism that limited knife use to vegetable cutting. Or if car manufacturers had the burden of installing something that prevented cars from hitting people. The world would be without knifes and cars...and a whole lot of other things.
There will always be an underground that takes ordinary useful things and contorts the use case to something bad.
Just as amazon avoids creating markets for livers, drugs and firearms, you can put in place values, rules and mechanisms that prevent unsavory betting markets. Others may go the unsavory path, but I’m not sure you will have the ability or means to control whether other people employ a technology for no good.
There will always be an underground that takes ordinary useful things and contorts the use case to something bad.
Just as amazon avoids creating markets for livers, drugs and firearms, you can put in place values, rules and mechanisms that prevent unsavory betting markets. Others may go the unsavory path, but I’m not sure you will have the ability or means to control whether other people employ a technology for no good.
OK
05:57
O K
There have been assassination markets on the darkweb since silk road days Zack, they never amounted to anything
IP
05:57
I P
i guess violence is just is. and we label it as wrong or right depending on situation. killing hitler was violence but was it wrong?
OK
05:57
O K
Seems to me we have more pressing things to worry about
05:57
Once something *actually* happens, then maybe we can worry
Z
05:57
Zack
Before I used a knife, my parents taught me to always cut away from myself.
Simple lifestyle rules like this can make us much safer from our powerful tools.
Simple lifestyle rules like this can make us much safer from our powerful tools.
OK
Z
05:58
Zack
I agree it is impossible to prevent assassination markets from existing.
I never suggested this impossible goal.
My goal is much more reasonable: find out simple lifestyle tricks to help reduce the number of assassinations.
I never suggested this impossible goal.
My goal is much more reasonable: find out simple lifestyle tricks to help reduce the number of assassinations.
IP
Z
05:59
Zack
the same way the rule of "always cut away from yourself" can prevent injuries with a knife. there are probably similar rules we can use to reduce the odds of being assassinated.
05:59
Deleted Account
I think for assasinations to happen, the platform must have good liquidity. I think a small chain might not be that attractive. So we should have good measures to avoid this in the mainstream «benevolent» prediction markets. That means controlling the «ethics» of people controlling the oracles...
Z
06:00
Zack
Preventing assassinations on Amoveo is easy.
The problem is that someone could make a clone of Amoveo dedicated to assassinations.
The problem is that someone could make a clone of Amoveo dedicated to assassinations.
OK
06:00
O K
That doesn't really sound like our problem
06:00
Deleted Account
Why is it easy in Amoveo?
OK
06:00
O K
Whether or not this will even be a problem is still to be determined
Z
06:01
Zack
We are the first people to become aware of this new threat to humanity. It is our responsibility to make some survival strategies and share them.
OK
06:01
O K
... Yeah the first people... In 2010
Z
06:01
Zack
In reply to this message
the community will always say "bad question" for these types of oracle questions.
06:02
Deleted Account
I think the Assasimoveo would have trouble obtaining critical mass and would have many authorities hunting down its users.
06:04
I think the best we could do was to implement a secret kill switch or a list of zero days to stop such a fork. But I dont think thats a good idea
Z
06:04
Zack
In reply to this message
USA military spends $600 billion per year trying to murder people.
Assassination markets will be a more cost effective way to murder people in many cases.
So an assassination blockchain could easily be worth hundreds of billions.
Assassination markets will be a more cost effective way to murder people in many cases.
So an assassination blockchain could easily be worth hundreds of billions.
06:04
the best we can do is to make some lifestyle tips to help people avoid being assassinated.
06:04
Deleted Account
I agree. For instance if the US govt used this to get people killed abroad
Z
06:05
Zack
1) don't be a meme on the internet.
OK
06:05
O K
🤦♂
Z
06:05
Zack
2) don't have a position of power, where if you died someone could replace you.
06:05
Deleted Account
So we just have to accept that one might get killed for a new reason after 2018
Z
06:05
Zack
3) don't give large inheritances.
06:05
Deleted Account
How much have you guys had to drink?
A
OK
06:06
Deleted Account
@zack maybe you need to change your ways? Id be glad to take the risk of receiving your dev reward
Z
06:06
Zack
4) don't do anything that could cause a big company or rich person to lose a lot of money.
OK
06:07
O K
In reply to this message
What evidence do we have that this has anything to do with being a target
Z
06:07
Zack
5) don't store any secret documents that only you know about. Use a kill switch, so if you die it all becomes public.
06:08
Deleted Account
Id say if you are famous you might be in danger then
Z
06:08
Zack
In reply to this message
Every person who knows about you has some non-zero probability of assassinating you.
The more people who know about your existence, the more dangerous it is.
The more people who know about your existence, the more dangerous it is.
06:09
6) don't be famous.
OK
06:09
O K
Let's talk about this:
06:09
Deleted Account
So its time we all log off and rejoin with our anonymous aliases then?
OK
06:09
O K
People are murdered all the time. This often happens because of black markets. Amoveo will reduce the need for violent black markets. Even with assassination markets, amoveo will reduce violence
06:10
👍 cheers let's get back to work
sd
06:11
steel dan
In reply to this message
Zack VIPs, like politician, rich people etc. always had bodyguards, nothing new. Some people will always be famous in each era. Maybe you are a bit paranoid?
IP
06:11
I P
millions of people die from hunger and because of no access to fresh water and very basic medicine
sd
06:12
steel dan
their killers can always be paid in monero to do their job
IP
06:12
Deleted Account
Cmon people. You should all digest this: getting people killed is a lot easier and safer for everyone except the victim when this takes off
sd
06:12
steel dan
and the wont even have to bet capital to receive the same amount or even less if there are small bets
06:13
Deleted Account
Would obama use a drone or an assasination market?
IP
sd
06:14
they induce paranoia
Z
06:15
Zack
In reply to this message
now that he is retired, I think drones aren't an option for him any more.
sd
06:15
steel dan
politicians have bodyguards, every day and they have powerful enemies, who can pay in monero or gold
06:16
but they still dont get killed
IP
06:17
I P
people would pay millions in cash to kill some famous politicians. but those famous politician die very rarely
06:17
common people die all the time from some random violence
06:17
like smb got drunk and stabbed a neighbour
sd
06:17
steel dan
In reply to this message
exactly, they even have ultrarich diactators who are their enemies but they still can't get shot
IP
06:18
I P
USA spends billlions on military and they can't kill Assad
A
06:18
Aries
well Dictators are in a different class.
06:18
then common folk
OK
A
IP
06:19
I P
common folk die all the time from some random violence, most of people die this way if they die because of violence
A
06:22
Aries
key point of that clip is that Slim knows that he is not in the same level as a "Day of the Jackal" Assassin
06:23
Deleted Account
I think a assn-market could get Assad killed
Z
06:23
Zack
In reply to this message
If they killed Assad, then they would lose their excuse to spend billions on military.
There is very little incentive to kill enemy leaders.
There is very little incentive to kill enemy leaders.
A
06:23
Aries
very true
sd
06:23
steel dan
true
OK
06:24
So... They will always fabricate new ones
IP
06:25
hussein before that
06:25
also i think that if you study 20th century history a lot of regimes were overthrown and enemy leaders killed with the 'help' of US government
A
06:25
Aries
but what if Markets already exist and Dictators are off limit?
IP
06:26
I P
the most hilarious part is that after they break those regimes common people lives get way worse
Z
06:27
Zack
if leaders kept getting killed off by assassination markets, there would be a constant power vacuum everywhere at once.
Power vacuums are where the worst violence happens.
Power vacuums are where the worst violence happens.
06:33
Deleted Account
I think the hash trick still needs one to share a secret with known assasins. The last piece of the puzzle would be if you did not know who the assasin would be...
06:34
I would assume a workaround for this exists too
Z
06:36
Zack
the assassin has an address that got rewarded. The assassin can use their private key to sign messages.
We can use their pubkey to send them encrypted messages.
I guess the assassin will have to do their first target without pay, just to build a reputation.
We can use their pubkey to send them encrypted messages.
I guess the assassin will have to do their first target without pay, just to build a reputation.
06:48
Deleted Account
Maybe we can create a dominant assurance contract in Amoveo, that will reward attackers against Assasimoveo chain?
Get rewarded by attacking their nodes or something.
Get rewarded by attacking their nodes or something.
06:51
Deleted Account
Even if they did the first assasination for free they would not get into the list of prior assasins. And assasins would probably not want to reuse their keys
Z
07:03
Zack
In reply to this message
of course they will reuse keys to build up reputation.
They pay themselves some money for the first assassination, just to build up reputation.
They pay themselves some money for the first assassination, just to build up reputation.
tunez 💙🚀 invited tunez 💙🚀
t
14:57
tunez 💙🚀
Assasination markets are a result of free will
14:57
Amoveo has the option of censoring anything, or nothing
14:59
There is no in between
15:04
Prediction markets operate as a bounty. What can and can’t have a bounty placed on it shouldn’t necessarily be determined by the free will of an individual because there will always be bad actors. It is a complex question. But determining what is and isn’t ethical shouldn’t be governed by an entity nor censored by a centralized authority. The process should be decentralized.
15:08
An ecosystem of user reputations would help
Eric Arsenault invited Eric Arsenault
EA
15:12
Eric Arsenault
Agreed on some kind of reputation system
15:55
Deleted Account
assasination market belongs to dark web
15:56
it wont be allowed anywhere
15:59
. amoveo can choose to disallow betting on someone's death
MC
15:59
Matthew Croughan
Lmao get a life thinking regulation is anything but fantasy in a free market
15:59
assasination markets are a regulatory structure
16:00
there is an assasination market whether your normie eyes see it or not
16:00
Your eyeballs seeing it or not do not make it any more or less existent, this is the most annoying thing.
16:01
And you can proxy it through any medium, you can express it on bitcoin if you want, nobody bothered though, even with colored coins nobody would bother, it's just that the idea has captivated people with Augur.
16:02
If you happen to be of high risk on the assasination market, and you are assasinated, you just got regulated.
16:03
Assasination markets are regulation in action, that might horrify you, but plenty of world leaders had a lot of money spent to have their head removed from their body, and plenty of people were rewarded for that act.
What is so special, so disturbing about seeing that on a graph, on a blockchain?
What is so special, so disturbing about seeing that on a graph, on a blockchain?
B
16:03
Ben
Assassination markets are boring when compared to Liberation markets. Far less expensive and easier to kill someone than to free them.
MC
16:04
My favourite is that it'd be easier to get billions in taxpayer money than fly to mars with a shit drone.
16:05
What do you think about that one? I find it so interesting that we can verify a flag on the moon, but not a rover on mars, and the costs and incentives would suggest it's easier and more profitable to hoax than to do.
16:05
and it's the same idea, doing the right thing vs what's easier
16:07
Deleted Account
if anyone really want to clone amoveo and build a new assasination focused blockchain that focus on beting on when someone will die. it is not amoveo's fault. i dont believe anyone is interested in building that
MC
16:09
Matthew Croughan
I think it's silly to think there is anything you can do about it.
16:09
As silly as thinking you can ban bitcoin lol, why do you think there is a difference?
B
16:09
Ben
Even with limits removed to the information available, we still have processing power costs and resource limitations. It's one of the drivers behind the advancements needed from AI.
16:11
Try constructing logic gates using only light, for example.
16:13
Amoveo + photonic computing.
ŽM
16:13
Živojin Mirić
Reading this assasination markets discussion since yesterday... Still not sure if everyone is trolling
hgtp://DAnGus invited hgtp://DAnGus
B
16:17
Ben
Photonic devices that capture ambient light and use it for computing, with no need for a power supply. Beam me up.
OK
A
18:27
Al
@zack help
Z
22:25
Zack
In reply to this message
I worked for the team that put a rover on mars. I watched them assemble it in a clean room. I went through the expensive training procedures to learn how to safely enter the clean room and handle aerospace equipment.
I am certain that they really did put it on Mars.
I am certain that they really did put it on Mars.
IP
22:26
I P
wow range of discussion just widened from ass markets to mars rovers
22:27
still, about the retargetting algorithm. won't medium farm switching exploit the new algo Zack wrote?
Z
22:27
Zack
only if they control >50% of the hashrate.
If one entity controls >50%, they can break the system in other ways too.
If one entity controls >50%, they can break the system in other ways too.
DY
22:36
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
When veo becomes more profitable could the chinese farmers come & bring more of their friends to pass 50%?
Z
22:39
Zack
If 50% of the hashpower work together, they can double spend any POW blockchain.
I think Chinese farmers are not so good at trustful coordination. Each of them just wants to earn profit for themselves, they don't want to put their trust in strangers.
I think Chinese farmers are not so good at trustful coordination. Each of them just wants to earn profit for themselves, they don't want to put their trust in strangers.
S
23:04
Sy
Combined they had at least 100 th
23:04
But as Zack stated, they would have to pull on one string which doesnt really happen
23:05
So when they come back they will actually harden the network against each other😁
[
23:07
[Riki]
The chinese are not loyal to anyone, hard to believe they would form a cartel or something
S
23:10
Sy
We do need the hashrate distrubuted by then though
A ddos will actually have an effect on the diff with the new algo
A ddos will actually have an effect on the diff with the new algo
23:11
I will talk with zack and OK about different approaches
23:11
Once im back from poland 😎
30 July 2018
Z
00:19
Zack
If there are lots of blockchains that are vulnerable to oscillating hashpower attacks at frequencies in simple harmonic ratios with each other, and miners keep switching to whichever is most profitable to mine, then the blockchains' difficulties adjustments can all start reverberating on each other and fail catastrophically.
It is like how if you bring too much radioactive material together, it can start producing a self-sustaining reaction and explode.
That would be an exciting day in crypto. 10% of blockchains randomly dying on the same day. Doesn't matter if they are good projects or bad. Just unlucky to use a similar frequency for difficulty retargeting.
It is like how if you bring too much radioactive material together, it can start producing a self-sustaining reaction and explode.
That would be an exciting day in crypto. 10% of blockchains randomly dying on the same day. Doesn't matter if they are good projects or bad. Just unlucky to use a similar frequency for difficulty retargeting.
00:19
If enough hashpower is turning on-and-off, all blockchains are vulnerable at some frequency
Z
01:15
Zack
if the difficulty of a block exceeds 17841, then javascript will not be able to verify headers. the number will be too big.
I guess we need some big number library.
I guess we need some big number library.
01:22
https://github.com/peterolson/BigInteger.js/blob/master/BigInteger.js
How about this one?
How about this one?
AK
01:22
A K
Mm phase also matters
01:23
Not just freq
Z
01:27
Zack
once you are in frequency, the phase will shift into an attack pattern on it's own. As miners keep switching to the profitable blockchain.
S
01:35
Sy
Doesnt even have to be on purpose,could be some auto switching software aswell or multipool
+
02:58
++
In reply to this message
Interesting. Is the idea that as as difficulty on one platform declines, it forces the difficulty on another to decline in order to attract and retain miners. This creates a self fulfilling cycle of declining difficulty... but don’t see how this results in “blockchains dying” unless all the hashing power moves at same time. But if that were the case, some miners would figure out that there is more profit available to getting out of sync and staying while others leave, so long as the chain they mine adjusts difficulty in a relatively short time.
Z
03:06
Zack
In reply to this message
if the difficulty is oscillating, then on average the coins are being sold for too cheap of a price. this is destructive to the value of the token of that blockchain.
AS
03:23
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
Ur current diff retarget doesn't work well at current state of mining. When VEO launched some guys mined a lot of VEO due to that faulty diff retarget. And 6 months after that, the chain still moves too slow.
03:23
I didn't say all other diff retarget algorithms are perfect, but at least they did their work. Yours not.
OK
03:27
O K
In reply to this message
We are in a huge swing of an attack pattern for a long time now. Many mining at a loss. Agreed, current is not working.
S
OK
03:28
O K
Worst case scenario, we switch back
S
03:28
Sy
Its working exactly as intended by Zack,its just not what you ppl want
OK
S
03:28
Sy
Is there a date for the new one yet?
AS
OK
AS
DY
S
04:02
Sy
Nope i am serious, the current solution would work too
OK
04:02
O K
Work for?
S
04:03
Sy
It just takes longer but save your breath, we are switching so it doesnt matter
+
04:31
++
In reply to this message
I think your point is that if difficulty is oscillating, relatively more coins will be minted at lower difficulty which implies lower average embedded cost per coin? But if production volume is truly tied to time rather than difficulty level, this can’t be true. Only if difficulty algo adjusts too slowly would you enable more units to be produced at lower embedded costs. But cost function doesn’t determine value.
What drives token value? It is not simply the supply side (i.e. the embedded costs of miners). This chat space is supply side/miner dominated, but for Amoveo to really hit it, there needs to be a lot of development on the demand side - real applications and usage by customers in need of prediction markets rather than simply investors and miners hoping to make a buck. Actual usage matters a lot.
If the platform is successful, the token price will be determined by how compelling the feature set and customer experience is v competitors, not by the embedded energy and equipment costs. The winning system will be the one that enables miner costs to fall significantly, not the one that keeps the cost function high.
What drives token value? It is not simply the supply side (i.e. the embedded costs of miners). This chat space is supply side/miner dominated, but for Amoveo to really hit it, there needs to be a lot of development on the demand side - real applications and usage by customers in need of prediction markets rather than simply investors and miners hoping to make a buck. Actual usage matters a lot.
If the platform is successful, the token price will be determined by how compelling the feature set and customer experience is v competitors, not by the embedded energy and equipment costs. The winning system will be the one that enables miner costs to fall significantly, not the one that keeps the cost function high.
05:55
Deleted Account
I think the total difficulty _might_ be equal on average, but any miners switching pools will mine at times when the difficulty is lower. The 100% miners are the losers
Deleted invited Deleted Account
sd
10:05
steel dan
Zack I tried compiling and running amoveo on ubu 18.04 + erlang R21 from erlang solutions. I had to run chmod -R 777 after make prod-build because erlexec had no rwx permissions. Needless to say, I ran sudo apt-get install erlang libncurses5-dev libssl-dev unixodbc-dev g++ git erlang-base-hipe make
This time, the code did not even produce testnet.log, it failed much earlier. This is the only log:
This time, the code did not even produce testnet.log, it failed much earlier. This is the only log:
10:06
Z
10:07
Zack
I haven't tried 18.04.
It works with 16.04
It works with 16.04
sd
10:10
steel dan
yes. the new test I did was to try erlang R21, from the erlang-solutions repo
10:10
It fails very badly now
10:10
even earlier
10:11
maybe the erlang.log file could show something useful if you take a quick look
sd
10:44
steel dan
BTW the compilation ran fine with erlang r21 but then make prod-go failed so badly
15:01
Deleted Account
Looking at the log there are several things going on, but one thing is «error address in use». You get this when you try to listen on a port (tcpip) that is already in use by another program. I would suggest trying to reboot if you have not already done so
15:01
AK
17:09
A K
when's the next scheduled diff change and what's the estimate?
17:09
any online source?
DY
AK
17:16
A K
tnx!!
17:18
predicted shows 34138 - for latest block 27680
17:18
but we're past 27680 already
DY
17:18
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Yes but the diff isn't adjusted until we reach block 28000.
AK
17:19
A K
ah ok
17:19
it wil be 34 or 34 * 0.86 ?
17:20
it seems 34
B
17:51
Branc
what is price range currently?
AK
17:55
A K
IP
17:59
I P
In reply to this message
200-300$. people re willing to buy big amounts at 300. people who have less than 0.5 veo sometimes dump at any price (like 200$ or smth). market is very small right now
sd
19:19
steel dan
In reply to this message
Thanks mate, your insight is so valuable, will look into it tonight
L
sd
Z
sd
20:45
steel dan
BTW, fresh erlang R21 from erlang solutions on ubu 18.04 also works great with amoveo
20:46
Zack Maybe you could post a warning on github for port conflicts when trying to launch the amoveo full node
20:47
ranch lib, port 8080 was the culprit in my case
AK
21:10
who is this biggest holder with 0 incomin txs?
IP
22:14
which is locked for 1 year or smth
AK
22:14
A K
💪 thanks
31 July 2018
Moe ⛏ invited Moe ⛏
Deleted invited Deleted Account
OK
MF
10:19
Mr Flintstone
veo on blockfolio
10:21
I remember checking a week or so ago and not seeing it
ES
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Alex K invited Alex K
Subby invited Subby
z4r4r invited z4r4r
f
22:48
fusan
SS
23:21
S S
https://blog.aeternity.com/state-of-development-week-of-july-23rd-2018-f8f8327becb6
Zack I think some people are triggered by you:)
Zack I think some people are triggered by you:)
1 August 2018
I
00:17
Iridescence
Maybe Zack shouldn't criticize AE, you're just giving them a roadmap to follow 😂
Z
00:34
Zack
State channels without a cryptoeconomically secure oracle would be terrible.
The only contracts you could use are satoshis dice or blackjack or chess. Contracts that don't reference any outside state.
State channels without off chain market would be terrible. You could only use perfectly symmetric contracts. You could play satoshi dice or the card game goofspiel.
Ae lacks a cryptoeconomically secure oracle. Ae lacks off-chain markets.
Their channels are almost completely useless.
Satoshi dice has so little state, it can be implemented in most payment channel systems.
So it is hard to consider AE'S design as a "state channel". Even though it has state, there is nothing interesting you can do with the state.
The only contracts you could use are satoshis dice or blackjack or chess. Contracts that don't reference any outside state.
State channels without off chain market would be terrible. You could only use perfectly symmetric contracts. You could play satoshi dice or the card game goofspiel.
Ae lacks a cryptoeconomically secure oracle. Ae lacks off-chain markets.
Their channels are almost completely useless.
Satoshi dice has so little state, it can be implemented in most payment channel systems.
So it is hard to consider AE'S design as a "state channel". Even though it has state, there is nothing interesting you can do with the state.
00:41
These are all concepts I have taught the AE team about in depth when I thought I was employed by them.
They chose to build a useless product.
Ae is about image, not substance.
They chose to build a useless product.
Ae is about image, not substance.
I
00:43
Iridescence
Zack bringing the 🔥🔥
MF
00:46
Mr Flintstone
not sure how much longer they will maintain a 50x premium over veo :)
00:46
at some point holders are gonna be like “this isn’t what we signed up for”
00:46
I wonder what they did sign up for (hint hint)
I
00:59
Iridescence
Veo is slow and steady
A
02:02
Aries
Spit that hot 🔥🔥🔥🔥
SS
02:41
S S
In reply to this message
Is there anywhere in your GitHub where I can read about what you mean by cryptoeconomically secure oracles.
Z
02:49
Zack
There is lots of documentation on the amoveo oracle to show that it is cryptoeconomically secure.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/blog_posts/oracles_overview.md
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/oracle.md
I am planning on writing a document on cryptoeconomics. I have some ideas about how to define it more formally.
Vitalik has written about it.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/blog_posts/oracles_overview.md
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/oracle.md
I am planning on writing a document on cryptoeconomics. I have some ideas about how to define it more formally.
Vitalik has written about it.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
03:58
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/cryptoeconomics.md
Here is an explanation of crypto economics.
Here is an explanation of crypto economics.
MF
04:02
Mr Flintstone
cool, thanks zack
+
05:21
++
In reply to this message
In the Oracle_Overview and elsewhere there were lots of points I was hoping folks can help me understand better.
“This willingness relies on the assumption that miners will follow the chain where the final oracle types are true representations of what happened.”
Q: How do miners know which chain has a true representation of what happened?
Q: If one side of a bet is very profitable to participate in, how do you prevent profits rather than truth from being the final outcome arbiter?
Q: Does final state simply reflect the side with the most value? If so, how do you prevent the Oracle state from simply being “bought” by those with more resources ? What prevents whales from forcing the outcome they need to be the winner and thus take all the opposing side’s bet capital?
“This willingness relies on the assumption that miners will follow the chain where the final oracle types are true representations of what happened.”
Q: How do miners know which chain has a true representation of what happened?
Q: If one side of a bet is very profitable to participate in, how do you prevent profits rather than truth from being the final outcome arbiter?
Q: Does final state simply reflect the side with the most value? If so, how do you prevent the Oracle state from simply being “bought” by those with more resources ? What prevents whales from forcing the outcome they need to be the winner and thus take all the opposing side’s bet capital?
05:32
“ Users can bet at 50-50 odds on which of the 3 outcomes they think will win. “
Q: Do the odds change depending on the amount on each side of a bet?
Q: Do the odds change depending on the amount on each side of a bet?
05:36
“Amoveo nodes can make a profit by facilitating off-chain payments or markets.”
“Amoveo nodes can make a profit by participating in the oracle mechanism.”
Q: How do the economics work? Can someone walk through an example?
“Amoveo nodes can make a profit by participating in the oracle mechanism.”
Q: How do the economics work? Can someone walk through an example?
05:39
“Once enough money is at stake, then it becomes worth it for miners to manually check the outcome. Since the miners can double all their money.”
Q: How do miners manually check an outcome? Is the point here that miners may also be participants in a betting market?
Q: How do you get assurance the final oracle state reflects truth in the world rather than the side that had the most dollars bet?
Q: How do miners manually check an outcome? Is the point here that miners may also be participants in a betting market?
Q: How do you get assurance the final oracle state reflects truth in the world rather than the side that had the most dollars bet?
MF
05:49
Mr Flintstone
lots of questions :)
+
05:50
++
In reply to this message
Yeah, sorry about that. Don’t want to overload chat but not sure what is best place to get help understanding these things? Have these questions been answered elsewhere?
MF
05:51
Mr Flintstone
this is definitely the place to help with your understanding
05:53
In reply to this message
with regard to the first statement, any time you open up a channel with the server hosting the market, you need to compensate them for locking up veo
05:53
so you pay channel fees that are measured per block
+
MF
05:54
Mr Flintstone
it’s like the bitcoin lightning network
05:54
this is determined by the parties involved
05:54
it can be as low as zero
05:55
it should theoretically be related to the interest rate of veo
+
05:55
++
Is it a percent of the total order book?
05:56
So if there is $100 on one side and $500 on another side, the node gets a % of $600?
05:56
How is the fee “quoted?”
MF
05:56
Mr Flintstone
the order book is in a smart contract which itself does not levy additional fees
05:56
the fee is quoted as satoshis per veo per block I believe
05:57
so, if I want to move some veo into a betting market, the host of the market has to lock up that amount of veo initially
+
MF
05:58
Mr Flintstone
imagine that veo doesn’t have any oracles at all
05:58
and that we are only using the lightning network for lightning payments
05:59
the amount of blocks is how we measure the amount of time the capital is locked up
05:59
in the traditional world, you may pay an interest rate on a notional amount per a period of time
05:59
we use blocks to measure the period of time
+
06:00
++
In reply to this message
Oh right. That makes sense. So it is quantity bet * elapse time of bet outstanding * % fee
MF
06:00
Mr Flintstone
essentially
06:00
yeah
06:00
This is how a market operator can earn money
06:01
which is essentially a node
+
06:01
++
In reply to this message
What are all the specific functions the node operator performs in exchange for their fee?
06:03
In reply to this message
Who incurs the risk of the fluctuation of VEO over the time the bet is outstanding ?
MF
06:04
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
anyone with veo with have this risk unless they hedge externally
06:05
or internally via a stablecoin or something
+
06:05
++
In reply to this message
Also who incurs the risk of the “time” measure changing due to the difficulty algo not adjusting quickly relative to hash power?
MF
06:07
Mr Flintstone
whoever is locked up without optionality to get out of their lockup
+
MF
06:07
Mr Flintstone
we can program any kind of logic to this end because the channels are Turing complete
+
06:08
++
In reply to this message
Are oracle outcomes bought rather than reflecting truth in the world ? How do you prevent whales from forcing an outcome?
MF
06:08
Mr Flintstone
nobody wants to use a chain that has false outcomes
06:08
so the coins won’t be valuable
+
MF
06:09
Mr Flintstone
if the question is not clearly true or false, we have a response called “bad question”
+
06:09
++
In reply to this message
Wouldn’t it require a lot of work for folks to have to make that determination in each and every case?
06:10
In reply to this message
Yes, but isn’t the final oracle state determined by the side that has the most capital bet on it?
MF
06:10
Mr Flintstone
not necessarily
+
06:11
++
In reply to this message
Can you explain.
Bet: it will rain tomorrow.
You bet yes, I bet no.
You have more money. You win?
Bet: it will rain tomorrow.
You bet yes, I bet no.
You have more money. You win?
MF
06:12
Mr Flintstone
only if it rains lol
06:12
but I assume it doesn’t rain right
+
06:13
++
In reply to this message
But isn’t the oracle final state determined by the side that bets more not what actually happened in the world ?
MF
06:14
Mr Flintstone
we would hope to have the two align provided economic significance attached to the oracle
06:14
the way it would work is that if there is enough money bet on an incorrect oracle outcome, it becomes profitable for the miners to check
06:15
this means that the money gained from betting on the true side and switching their software to only mine on the true fork outweighs the cost associated with manually checking and mining on the true fork
Z
06:16
Zack
mr flintstone is right.
After enough bets happen, then it is profitable for the miners to force the outcome and win a bunch of veo.
After enough bets happen, then it is profitable for the miners to force the outcome and win a bunch of veo.
+
06:16
++
In reply to this message
It becomes profitable for miners how? From placing a bet? Or is there another mechanism?
Z
06:17
Zack
by placing bets in the oracle
MF
06:17
Mr Flintstone
miners can bet themselves and they can change their software
06:17
changing their software and deciding when to do this is expensive
06:17
but they can get compensated for it with the oracle bets
06:19
In reply to this message
as well as combing through the universe of oracles. the betting system should narrow the worthy oracles down to a small and manageable number for the miners to care about
+
06:19
++
In reply to this message
If a miner doesn’t weigh in, then “truth” is determined by the side that bet the most?
MF
06:20
Mr Flintstone
only if majority hash rate stays on the chain with that outcome
+
06:21
++
If one miner changes software to accommodate the side with the lower amount bet but other miners don’t follow suite, what happens?
MF
06:22
Mr Flintstone
the protocol forks
06:22
the chain forks I should say
06:24
but why would the miners want to keep mining a lying chain?
+
06:25
++
Bet: it will rain tomorrow.
Yes side: $100
No side: $200
Fact. It rains.
Yes side should win but no side has bet more.
Miner can gain $100 less switching costs by changing software to select yes side.
But what if the other miners stay on no side ?
What is incentive for other miners?
Yes side: $100
No side: $200
Fact. It rains.
Yes side should win but no side has bet more.
Miner can gain $100 less switching costs by changing software to select yes side.
But what if the other miners stay on no side ?
What is incentive for other miners?
MF
06:25
Mr Flintstone
users will not value the coins
06:25
so their mining revenue will drop
06:27
Deleted Account
A mining cartel could control more than 51% hashpower and then force an oracle outcome after placing the last big bet. If the miners do this to make an oracle untrue, this will dimminish the value of Amoveo. You would expect miners, in particular when asics arrive, to be aligned with the success of Amoveo.
+
06:27
++
In reply to this message
Miners are not paid on truth of outcomes but the difference between the market price of VEO mined and their embedded costs, right?
06:27
Deleted Account
I think at this point its not only about the value of a single bet, but the perceived value of the system itself
06:28
I think its unlikely that miners would deliverately induce falseness into the oracles
06:29
Deliverately
Z
06:29
Zack
we would have a 1000 block warning if they tried.
06:29
Deleted Account
Deliberately :)
MF
06:29
Mr Flintstone
if a cartel controls 51% of hash rate, that is a failure mode for a non oracle chain anyways
+
06:30
++
In reply to this message
Sure. But what makes a good miner and what makes a good better are different skills. Miners may want to focus on managing the hardware and software of their mining operation, not necessarily researching all the bets to figure out which are true. If the bulk don’t want to research then they will default to one side and the miner that does research and tries to support the true side is left on losing side, not intentionally but by default.
06:30
Deleted Account
Well. The cartel could agree to fix a oracle, but tricking with balances could be more difficult to agree upon
06:32
The miners have this power in amoveo for good or bad. But i believe miners interests are aligned with best possible quality of oracles, and trust in veo balances
06:33
I think the bigger question is would the miners be able to react and cooperate on these issues
+
06:33
++
In reply to this message
I agree but if the default is to go with the side that bet the most, wouldn’t many miners not necessarily want to have to research every bet. Especially if there isn’t much to gain as a better and there are costs to going against default outcome and there is risk other miners don’t follow.
06:35
Deleted Account
I think the philosophy is that anyone could escalate a oracle issue. It will not be worthwhile to buy an oracle. Therefore it will not happen very often
+
06:35
++
In reply to this message
What is the estimated cost for a miner to “change” software to select the minority side of a bet that they think is right?
MF
06:35
Mr Flintstone
miners don’t need to check all the oracles. it only makes sense for them to browse the most profitable ones
06:35
the cost is not monetary for this
+
06:36
Deleted Account
There would be community discussions. The pools would take sides, then Amoveo would fork i guess. Creating a fork is trivial
Z
06:37
Zack
In reply to this message
miners don't have power.
They can only mine on the side with valuable tokens.
They can only mine on the side with valuable tokens.
+
06:38
++
In reply to this message
Can you explain “it will not be worthwhile to buy an oracle”? Not worthwhile for whom?
Z
06:38
Zack
In reply to this message
the bets themselves cover the cost of the research.
A mining pool can double all their veo for looking up one fact.
A mining pool can double all their veo for looking up one fact.
+
06:39
++
In reply to this message
Can any bettor challenge an oracle final state? Is there a cost to the bettor to challenging an oracle final state?
Z
06:40
Zack
the oracle doesn't close until betting settles down.
06:40
Deleted Account
But if the oracle fees escalated to the point where noone could match the bet, miners would have to fork to get rid of the last «evil» bet?
+
06:40
++
In reply to this message
Does this depend on the amount of VEO in the bet and the asymmetry between the sides?
Z
06:41
Zack
In reply to this message
yes. miners could potentially have to censor some bets to force the outcome, if the community wants the smaller side to win.
This is only possible if the attackers control over 50% of all veo, and are willing to lose all of them.
So it will never happen.
This is only possible if the attackers control over 50% of all veo, and are willing to lose all of them.
So it will never happen.
+
06:42
++
In reply to this message
So if one bettor is poor and the other is rich and the rest of the market isn’t paying attention, the rich side wins because the poor side can’t keep up betting against the rich side?
MF
06:42
Mr Flintstone
it would behoove the poor person to inform the public about this opportunity to double their money
Z
06:42
Zack
the rest of the network can't afford to not pay attention to free money.
06:43
Deleted Account
But the rest of the veo are distributed between many hands. It would not be possible to collect them for a single big bet. So I would think the bet would have to be substantially less than 51%
Z
06:44
Zack
the oracle has an order book. you can make lots of little bets.
06:44
Deleted Account
Actually when you control the dev reward, you will solely control oracle thruths in anoveo, unless there are forks
06:44
Ok. I see
MF
06:44
Mr Flintstone
the fork is the reason why he doesn’t control it
06:44
the threat of it
06:45
someone could have 99% of the veo and it wouldn’t let them control the chain to be an obvious lie on an oracle
06:45
Deleted Account
I thought you had to double oracle bets for each iteration
MF
06:45
Mr Flintstone
only if it’s unmatched I believe
Z
06:46
Zack
if you try to manipulate a futarchy mechanism by placing bets, you end up making it even more accurate. you are increasing the reward for other people to make accurate bets.
http://mason.gmu.edu/~rhanson/biashelp.pdf
http://mason.gmu.edu/~rhanson/biashelp.pdf
MF
06:46
Mr Flintstone
matched bets don’t have a restriction ( could be wrong )
+
06:46
++
In reply to this message
So poor person needs to run a campaign to tell others “Vote yes on oracle X”
And if their campaign loses, how do they challenge the final state? Is there a cost to challenging an outcome?
And if their campaign loses, how do they challenge the final state? Is there a cost to challenging an outcome?
Z
06:46
Zack
it is only a limit for the total number of bets in the order book. so you only have a size limitation if you add an open order to the book. not if you match.
06:46
Deleted Account
Could someone explain unmatched vs matched?
+
Z
06:47
Zack
once bets are matched, they are removed from the order book, and you are payed the type of shares that you bought.
MF
Z
06:48
Zack
all order book contain only unmatched trades.
If you want to buy bitcoin for $100, probably no one will match your trade. so your unmatched trade will sit in the order book for a long time.
If you want to buy bitcoin for $100, probably no one will match your trade. so your unmatched trade will sit in the order book for a long time.
MF
06:48
Mr Flintstone
look at the example in here
06:48
to understand matched and unmatched
Z
06:49
Zack
if you want to buy bitcoin for $10000, then you could immediately find someone to match your trade. You would match with someone who had left their trade in an order book on an exchange.
S
06:50
Subby
Does anyone have/know the opening price of the first trades/sell orders that completed for veo?
Z
06:50
Zack
In reply to this message
it isn't hard to get people's attention when you are giving away free money.
MF
+
06:52
++
In reply to this message
But there is uncertainty that truth will win, rather than the side that is wealthiest.
S
+
06:54
++
In reply to this message
Are node fees incurred from time you offer bet or from time it is matched?
06:55
Deleted Account
New Q: if i was to introduce eg the rate VEO/USD into Amoveo, i guess i would have to create oracles like: the rate at date _ is _, is this true?
Z
06:55
Zack
In reply to this message
http://mason.gmu.edu/~rhanson/biashelp.pdf
If a wealthy person tries to make the market lie, they just make the market even more accurate.
If a wealthy person tries to make the market lie, they just make the market even more accurate.
MF
06:55
asking about whether or not the nth digit in the binary amoveo price is 1
06:55
then attach one smart contract to these oracles
06:55
Deleted Account
How would a script be able to use these numbers, both wrt parsing the oracle question, and finding the oracles?
Z
06:56
Zack
In reply to this message
channels are turing complete. hubs and spokes can agree on any sort of fees they like.
06:56
In reply to this message
each oracle has a unique id when it is created on the blockchain. you can embed these ids into a channel smart contract.
06:57
the channel smart contract can look up results from the oracle.
06:58
Deleted Account
So the contracts could not depend on future oracles? In that case my wording of the question would not work...
MF
06:58
Mr Flintstone
you can create an oracle that starts arbitrarily far into the future
06:59
Deleted Account
Yes, but if i wanted to include the rate directly i would not be able to create the oracle upfront
MF
06:59
Mr Flintstone
what do you mean
06:59
maybe I don’t understand what you are asking
+
07:00
++
In reply to this message
Imagine I’m poor, I make a bet. I run out of money but I’m right. I can’t find others to bet. Oracle closes on wrong answer. How do I challenge ?
Z
07:01
Zack
you have 1000 blocks before the oracle closes.
You can find others, because everyone wants free money.
Come on here to telegram. I will bet everything I have if see a clear lie. I would be twice as rich afterwards.
You can find others, because everyone wants free money.
Come on here to telegram. I will bet everything I have if see a clear lie. I would be twice as rich afterwards.
07:01
Deleted Account
Lets say i want to make a contract to change x dollars to VEO sometime in the future. When the contract starts, i could not create an oracle question containing the rate as a number, because I did not know the number until after that date...
Z
07:02
Deleted Account
I dont know how they work :)
Z
07:02
Zack
we agree on quantities and price up front
07:03
then the price of the contract can fluctuate.
07:03
Deleted Account
Ok. Smart way of reframing it
+
07:04
++
In reply to this message
Can you explain “twice as rich”.
An oracle matches at $100. Then there is $10 more bet no and yes is right, are you saying I “double my money” by betting $10.01 to win?
An oracle matches at $100. Then there is $10 more bet no and yes is right, are you saying I “double my money” by betting $10.01 to win?
Z
07:04
Zack
a futures contract could be for 1 ton of rice on jan 1 2019.
It doesn't matter the price of rice on that day, it is still just 1 ton.
It doesn't matter the price of rice on that day, it is still just 1 ton.
07:05
you can only bet at 50-50 odds in an oracle.
07:06
oh, maybe you meant like a contract for difference.
07:07
We can express a price in binary.
Then we can ask each oracle for 1 bit of the binary number that is the price.
The smart contract can combine all these bits to calculate the price, and pay out the correct amount of VEO.
Then we can ask each oracle for 1 bit of the binary number that is the price.
The smart contract can combine all these bits to calculate the price, and pay out the correct amount of VEO.
07:08
Deleted Account
But that would take a lot of bandwidth? And not very easy for people to check the truth of these oracles
AS
Z
07:09
Zack
you only have to check the oracles once a week.
It takes very little bandwidth to check an oracle. you can do it with a light wallet and have cryptoeconomic security.
It takes very little bandwidth to check an oracle. you can do it with a light wallet and have cryptoeconomic security.
07:10
it is like 1 kilobyte to look up an oracle.
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07:10
++
In reply to this message
In practice, this is because you can only win whatever is unmatched, right?
So if there is $1000 matched and $1 unmatched, the incremental bettor can only bet max $1 in hopes of winning the $1 unmatched?
So if there is $1000 matched and $1 unmatched, the incremental bettor can only bet max $1 in hopes of winning the $1 unmatched?
07:11
Deleted Account
But in general, there is no way for a contract to find future oracles? I would think eg you could query for oracles by creator pubkey...
Z
07:11
Zack
no. there are other order books that match at all prices.
We just added that limitation to ours to optimize our order book for the purposes of being an oracle.
We just added that limitation to ours to optimize our order book for the purposes of being an oracle.
07:11
In reply to this message
yes. each oracle has a unique id. the smart contract can reference this, even before the oracle is settled.
07:12
Deleted Account
Im looking for a state that mau change from block to block, and protected by the oracle mechanism really
07:12
But the id exists only after the text is finalized
07:13
I was thinking bandwidth in terms of block size. If there were thousands of pairs...
07:15
Perhaps the oracles could link to a «previous» oracle, thus making a linked list...
Z
07:15
Zack
each oracle in amoveo provides 1 bit of data. if you want more than 1 bit, you will need more than 1 oracle.
07:15
Deleted Account
But I guess the VM would have to support this
07:17
Yeah, but you could put more data in the question text, and the data is simply that this piece of info is true or not
Z
07:18
Zack
you can interpret the one bit in a complicated way, sure.
07:18
Deleted Account
Eg: «is veo/usd 250.000 at block 28765?»
Z
07:18
Zack
false. there is no way it would be precise to 3 decimals like that.
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07:18
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In reply to this message
Is this bc it is 1, 0 or null?
What about the text for the question?
What about the text for the question?
Z
07:19
Zack
the text of the question is how we interpret the bit of information.
07:20
Deleted Account
Hehe. Well the wording could be better. But it could work. Eg «did qtrade report veo/eth at date x ending at 123.456?»
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07:20
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In reply to this message
I see. So the txt is not considered part of the oracle? The oracle is just a state: 1,0,null
07:21
Deleted Account
The texts are in the blockchain?
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Z
07:21
Zack
how about "veo/usd is greater than $250 at block 28765."
OK
07:21
O K
Shouldn't it include a source?
07:21
or no?
MF
07:21
Mr Flintstone
u can schelling point it if obvious enough
Z
07:21
Zack
the smart contract vm can't understand english. it doesn't know what we are betting on.
MF
07:22
Mr Flintstone
You are accepting fuzziness risk though if it’s close
07:22
Deleted Account
The Q must not be open to interpretation, but thats beside the point
MF
07:22
Mr Flintstone
idk if that is a real thing but that’s what I’m calling it
Z
07:22
Zack
In reply to this message
that is probably a good idea. Sometimes it is better to not use a specific source.
07:23
if you use a specific source, then an adversary only has to corrupt that one source.
If you don't use a specific source, the community can decide which sources are corrupt.
If you don't use a specific source, the community can decide which sources are corrupt.
07:23
Deleted Account
The contract could parse such oracle texts if the format was fixed
MF
07:23
Mr Flintstone
the degree of fuzziness of the oracle question will be reflected in the prices of the derivatives that are attached to its outcome
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07:23
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In reply to this message
So imagine quote on one exchange > $250 and quote on another exchange < $ 250. What is state ?
MF
07:24
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
I personally like not having a source in a lot of cases
07:24
Deleted Account
I guess if qtrade went belly up the oracle would be bad question
MF
07:24
Mr Flintstone
keep in mind that oracle betting is a social activity so there will be norms developed around oracle language that we don’t know right now
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07:25
++
Z
07:25
Zack
if it is a close call, then it doesn't really matter which way the contract turns out.
07:26
you have 1000 blocks before the oracle closes.
You can find others, because everyone wants free money.
Come on here to telegram. I will bet everything I have if see a clear lie. I would be twice as rich afterwards.
You can find others, because everyone wants free money.
Come on here to telegram. I will bet everything I have if see a clear lie. I would be twice as rich afterwards.
MF
07:26
Mr Flintstone
you can tell me first though, before coming to telegram :)
07:26
in fact I will pay you
07:27
reality is, there will be people and firms dedicated to this activity given how profitable it is. furthermore, any economically significant oracle will have market participants that will care about the outcome of that oracle
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07:28
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In reply to this message
Yeah. I saw that. Just imagining 1000’s of simultaneous oracles and lots of noise and misinformation about what is right or not...might not be so simple getting people to focus on any one thing. Happens with stocks. Imagine it might happen here too
MF
07:28
Mr Flintstone
so there are multiple layers of eyes on any economically significant oracle
Z
07:28
Zack
Hard to fake free money.
MF
07:28
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
remember, if an oracle is important there are people thinking about it
07:28
doesn’t matter if there are 1 million important oracles
07:29
it is not important what the outcome of unimportant oracles is
07:30
that sounds trivial but that’s not how I mean it lol
07:30
Deleted Account
The bitwise «value» oracle should get a sensible user interface in the future, indicating at which bit you are not agreeing with others. So you could place a bet on that bit, if it was of enough importance
07:31
Otherwise its a good idea it seems
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07:31
++
In reply to this message
Seems the incentive for bettors is keep the free money opportunty secret until you have personally exhausted your resources then advertise to the world to make sure you “win” the bet?
Z
07:31
Zack
the light wallet in javascript has an interface for looking up about oracles.
07:32
Deleted Account
There is little left to interpreting the oracle Q, the community will decide on a sufgiciently accurate value
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07:33
++
Can you set a time limit of resolving a bet?
MF
07:33
Mr Flintstone
I believe there is an effective time limit
07:33
Deleted Account
I was thinking more like: these 12 oracles represent a value. Right now the value is 1000 but you think it’s 1003. In that case you need to challenge the 5th of the oracles...
MF
07:33
Mr Flintstone
of 1000 * 40 or so blocks
07:34
that’s only cuz of the doubling unmatched bets tho
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07:35
Deleted Account
But people need to assess the oracles outside the contract,
MF
07:36
Mr Flintstone
don’t really pay too much mind to the 1000*40 figure. what’s important to understand is that outside of forks, an oracle will only finalize if its output type has been unchanged for 1000 blocks
07:36
if it’s block 999 and someone bets a lot and switches the output type, then you need to wait another 1000 blocks
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07:37
++
In reply to this message
Kinda has a fomo3d feel to it.lol
You get the bounty when time runs out, but can be extended by betting more
You get the bounty when time runs out, but can be extended by betting more
MF
07:38
Mr Flintstone
if you extend the time, this means that you switched the output type
07:38
if you switch the output type at the last minute, it is likely you are switching to a lie
07:38
if you switch it to a lie, you are losing money
07:38
the minimum amount you can switch the output type by betting doubles every betting cycle I believe
07:39
so this gets expensive fast
Z
07:39
Zack
no, doesn't change
MF
07:39
Mr Flintstone
what doubles then?
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07:39
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In reply to this message
Only if in the next 1000 blocks, people take the other side. I get that there is incentive to do that but also wondering if thing slip through cracks.
MF
07:40
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
I think I remember bet sizes doubling in the oracle bettingprocess
07:40
certain kinds of bets tho
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Z
07:41
Zack
In reply to this message
this is so the order book doesn't get too full. every additional order in the order book has a minimum size that is twice as big as the previous.
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07:41
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In reply to this message
So you always double your money but there is a cap on how much you can bet based on what is not matched?
MF
Z
07:41
Zack
no cap on how much you can bet in the oracle.
MF
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07:43
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In reply to this message
If last unmatched bet was $1, I can’t win more than $1 no matter how much I bet?
Z
07:43
Zack
you can bet as much as you want. if someone bets the opposite way as you, then they can lose their money, and you can win it.
MF
07:44
Mr Flintstone
I think he means if nobody else counters his bet
07:44
and no other bets are made aside from his
Z
07:44
Zack
if some of your bet gets unmatched, and no one bets against it, then you get that money back. it doesn't matter if you were right or wrong, you just get a refund.
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07:44
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In reply to this message
Right but if last unmatched was $1, and you take other side, and no one else comes in against you, you can’t win more than that $1, right?
AS
07:46
Aizen Sou
If u guys really give no shit about miners who are mining at loss for months to secure Amoveo network now, how about switching to PoS?
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07:48
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In reply to this message
Node fees are like cost of capital, creates incentive to not overbet one side unmatched because it takes from the profits you can earn
07:48
In reply to this message
Shouldn’t this be fixed by having a difficulty algo that adjusts faster?
Z
07:48
Zack
In reply to this message
there is a fee for making a channel.
You don't use channels when participating in the oracle. so there is no channel node fee for participating in an oracle.
You don't use channels when participating in the oracle. so there is no channel node fee for participating in an oracle.
AS
07:49
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
Yes i hate PoS too but i hate it more when miners are treated like second class citizen in VEO
07:49
In reply to this message
Yes it should be a simple fix and I have asked Zack for months about that
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07:51
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In reply to this message
Is the node fee a function of all the VEO bet on both sides in a channel? So if you bet in a channel, you contribute to the node fee?
Z
07:51
Zack
if you make a channel, you and the person you are making a channel with can agree on whatever fee you two think is fair.
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07:54
++
In reply to this message
Confused, can you link it all together ?
Two bettors in a channel, multiple channels to a node, node aggregates bettors in channels for a question? How does it work (if this is wrong)?
Two bettors in a channel, multiple channels to a node, node aggregates bettors in channels for a question? How does it work (if this is wrong)?
Z
07:55
Zack
a hub runs a market. if you want to make a bet in the market, you need to make a channel with the hub.
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07:56
++
In reply to this message
Right so all particpants in a channel need to pay the hub a node fee for running the market.
AS
07:56
Aizen Sou
Oh please Zack . i know that u hate my rants but u also should know that I'm accounted for 40% VEO nethash and mining for months at loss.
Z
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AS
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07:58
++
In reply to this message
So, if you make a channel, you may have to pay what the hub operator thinks is fair. You may not have a choice except for choosing to refrain from the market?
Z
07:59
Zack
In reply to this message
The hub operator makes opposite bets in different channels that cancel out.
07:59
In reply to this message
right. if you want to participate in a market, you need to pay the person who put the time and effort into setting it up.
If you think it is too expensive, you are free to run your own market with lower fees.
If you think it is too expensive, you are free to run your own market with lower fees.
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08:00
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In reply to this message
I probably have no clue on the history here but I thought I saw Zack say that changing algo difficulty is on the priority list of things to do. Way up in chat, he have list of 4 or so things he was prioritizing.
AS
08:01
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
Thanks. No idea why he keeps ignoring when people ask about when it will be implemented.
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AS
08:02
Aizen Sou
@Afterwit could u ask him my question so I wanna see whether he will keep ignoring it ?
Z
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Z
08:03
Zack
In reply to this message
It is your own fault if you mine at a loss, no one is making you do that.
AS
08:06
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
Nice answer from you to someone who supported u from the start. Now I see why people can't handle you. Ok I mine at loss because i wanna keep the chain alive for a bit longer and I have trusted you.
Moe ⛏ invited S B
Moe ⛏ invited Chris Hortski
Z
08:07
Zack
mining at a loss is bad. you are throwing away money for no reason.
08:07
it doesn't help amoveo
08:07
I never asked you to throw away your money.
AS
08:07
Aizen Sou
Well I spent money and my time promoting VEO, if it doesn't count. Fine
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08:12
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In reply to this message
Why not port your hash power to some other chain with better economics? Then as Amoveo chain slows, there is more incentive to adjust the difficulty algo and the difficulty adjusts automatically.
If I remember correctly the chain is only 1% utilized. It is economically rational to allow attrition of hashing power. But maybe I misunderstand things so correct if you think so.
If I remember correctly the chain is only 1% utilized. It is economically rational to allow attrition of hashing power. But maybe I misunderstand things so correct if you think so.
S
08:13
Subby
Does veo have a total supply?
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08:14
In reply to this message
So percentage increase will decrease over time as base of units outstanding gets larger
Z
08:14
Zack
In reply to this message
the governance mechanism determines the block period and the block reward. We cannot predict what the community will decide to do in the future.
AS
08:16
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
U are absolutely right. It was my terrible mistake. I just wanna to help the chain to move a bit faster, because everyone I talked to is scared about the 2 hours block time before. And I had my hope that Zack would fix it soon. But after 2 months nothing. Now I understand that he doesn't give a shit about miners. Yet he told everyone that PoW is a fair way to distribute the coin so he choose PoW. What a terrible lies. Or he must contradict himself a lot. Poor guy.
S
08:16
Subby
If big miners go away then small miners will come
08:16
And replace you
AS
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08:19
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In reply to this message
But it is a bit like building more hotel rooms while only 1 is occupied. If existing is under utilized no benefit to building more.
Look on the bright side, if you own VEO and have not been selling along the way, decreasing the rate of inflation helps the store of value. If you have been mining and selling for income, makes sense to switch chains till economics become good again on this chain.
Look on the bright side, if you own VEO and have not been selling along the way, decreasing the rate of inflation helps the store of value. If you have been mining and selling for income, makes sense to switch chains till economics become good again on this chain.
AS
Z
08:22
Zack
In reply to this message
no. the governance mechanism is the same as the oracle mechanism.
AS
08:23
Aizen Sou
In reply to this message
U didn't try to send VEO to another person and didn't hear the complain why it's after 2 hours not there, did u ?
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08:26
++
In reply to this message
It is a fair point and I can understand why you are upset. I suppose the transfer functionality is deprecated but shouldn’t the betting functionality in a channel work just fine?
Maybe just a delay in getting your VEO when a channel is closed with final state.
I’m sure Zack will ease the difficulty.
Maybe just a delay in getting your VEO when a channel is closed with final state.
I’m sure Zack will ease the difficulty.
T
08:30
Topab
In reply to this message
But this could become an attack point, a small fee should be compulsory to report on oracle lies
AS
08:31
Aizen Sou
Last words to Zack because i will definitely stop doing anything related to VEO after that. You might be a genius coder or whatever. I see that u could talk for hours about high level problems, but u failed even the most basic stuffs to make the project alive. You might play a great role for a team, because ur weakness could be compensated from other people. But u keep trying to do all by urself. That makes u fail at everything because u refused to listen. Now I finally understand why ur last 2 two projects become bigger without you. Good luck Zack .
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08:31
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In reply to this message
Fee paid by the person that reports or paid to the person that reports?
08:36
In reply to this message
Can you explain what is involved in setting up a market? Setting up a server ? Other stuff? What exactly ?
OK
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08:39
++
In reply to this message
Thx. Read that but I don’t know what that means in terms of time and resources that go into setting up market. Can you elaborate ?