Amoveo ♥🧿
16 February 2020
05:20
Deleted Account
the problem is not in your technical ability, but your unwillingness to interact with real people and take feedback
05:20
no amount of "technology" creation or buzzwords will solve the problem
05:21
have you at least tried to get a development or growth partner?
05:21
or a marketer?
05:21
you can use funds from the amoveo development, in similar proportion to ethereum's fund initially, and that will give resources to achieve your goals
b
05:22
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
@cj297 please stop embarrassing yourself
05:22
Deleted Account
lol
b
05:23
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
You want to help just pick up a shovel and help but wasting Zack time with your anger about price is nonsense
05:23
Deleted Account
how so am I "embarassing" myself?
05:23
zack time is not worth anything, just like at the price of amoveo
b
05:23
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
Great, you made your point
05:23
Deleted Account
if his time was worth anything amoveo would not be one of the worst performing low cap coins this year
05:23
as they say, the market is always right
b
05:23
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
Keep buying Tron
05:24
Deleted Account
tron did in fact massively outperform amoveo
05:24
so haha to you, i'm beating you already :)
b
05:24
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
Yes , you belong there
05:24
Please keep buying
05:24
Deleted Account
you think tron is the joke, but you're the joke
05:24
you've lost money while i've made money
b
05:24
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
Ok
05:24
Good for you
05:24
Zack is a genius, period
05:24
Deleted Account
yes good for me, I am a better investor than you
05:25
natural selection :)
05:25
lol you're an idiot if you think that
05:25
you probably don't have much technical ability
05:25
so you're amazed at zack's technical skills, which yes it's true, he is technically very proficient
05:25
but he's an idiot, not a genius
Z
05:26
Zack
My goal is to create the next world reserve currency. To make amoveo bigger than us dollars.

I think for now, users or marketing are not the best short term goals to help us achieve global success.

I think for now, there are still key tech features we need before amoveo has the opportunity to go global.
05:26
Deleted Account
hahaha
05:27
lol you think you're a vitalik, but you're not
05:27
you need to find a way to fix your weaknesses
b
05:27
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
Go buy Tron
05:27
Deleted Account
I knew vitalik personally, I knew many of the top devs personally, as a successful investor there are many differentiating factors
b
05:28
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
In reply to this message
☝🏻
05:28
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
the joke is on you :)
05:28
in the end of the day, the measurement of your success as an investor is on your P and L
05:28
I win, you lose :)
b
05:28
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
Good
05:29
Deleted Account
lol
05:29
enjoy being poor pedro :)
05:31
just because zack says a lot of buzzwords, it's easy for untechnical people like you to get confused and think of it as a good project
05:31
learn some CS and you'll understand this project is worth nothing :)
b
05:34
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
What are you still doing here?
05:34
Please go buy Tron
05:34
Deleted Account
poor people will be poor :)
b
05:34
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
#gotron
05:34
Deleted Account
what are you doing here? go learn some basic programming #helloworld
Z
05:35
Zack
you guys can discuss how you will spend your weekend in PM. this channel is for talking about Amoveo.
05:35
Deleted Account
alright i guess enough, i made my point
05:35
hope you will take it constructively, I want to see this project successful but there needs to be some big changes
Z
05:37
Zack
Amoveo is a very risky project.
We will probably lose everything that we put into it.
Invest at your own risk.
05:38
Deleted Account
has anyone offerred to help you in terms of marketing or growth?
05:39
or business development to help with price
Z
05:40
Zack
Yes, many people try to sell me their services for marketing and growth. I think now is not the right time for that yet.
05:41
I think it is bad to have much investment until you are sure that you have a really good product.

If there is lots of investment, and no good product is ever created, that is a real tragedy. Many people lose their savings.

I would rather that people do not invest until we are sure that it can succeed.
05:42
Deleted Account
well there may be people you can take on as a marketing partner
05:42
long term
05:42
that will be invested in success
05:42
this is key to the project success
Z
05:42
Zack
If I convince someone to buy VEO, and then VEO never succeeds, that would make me feel like a scammer.
I am an honest person, I only want to sell good products.
05:43
Deleted Account
your rejection of marketing and development of price will be fatal for this project
05:43
every project is a scam to some degree
Z
05:43
Zack
I don't reject marketing. I think it can be a useful tool. I just think we have not reached that stage yet.
05:43
Deleted Account
already it is a scam since you purport that your project has a real use case, but it does not
05:44
just by creating the project, it is already inadvertently a scam
05:45
it's ok if the project is a scam, such as ethereum, but it's only ok if the price goes up
TG
05:48
Toby Ganger
i am still of the opinion that marketing brings investment which brings diversified development on top of the chain which helps find out what the actual use cases are…without the investment the development becomes too centralized
Z
05:48
Zack
I actually started working on this in 2015, but I didn't launch the blockchain until 2018.
Sometimes I do regret launching the blockchain so early.
There have been advantages and disadvantages.

The advantage is that now it is so easy for me to get testers when I need them, and it is easy to find people to discuss ideas with.
The disadvantage is that so many people are distracted thinking about the price instead of the technology, and a lot of people stopped viewing me as a research college, and started viewing me as a competitor to Eth/BTC who just wants to sell my altcoin.
TG
05:49
Toby Ganger
and it’s difficult for one or two people to keep experimenting to find what works
05:49
Deleted Account
it doesn't work because there's no marketing, not because of the technology
05:50
ethereum devoted very significant amounts of money to marketing initially, much more than to development
05:50
you should take a leap of faith and trust us on this point
05:50
maybe then you'
05:50
you'll start seeing massive improvements
Z
05:50
Zack
I devote $10 a month to Amoveo.
That is what I pay to maintain the servers.
I don't spend money on development or marketing.
05:51
Deleted Account
the problem is the lack of focus on marketing
05:51
it's not a money problem either, it's a personality problem
05:51
the reason most crypto projects are successful is dual technical and marketing, without either the project fails
05:51
you need a strong marketing partner
TG
05:51
Toby Ganger
i think that you’re building tech for economic activity…without considering the economic incentives of what draws people to begin using technology in this space in the first place…and how ecosystems get refined and developed through that process of community growth that is incentivized by individuals advancing their own economic interests..
05:52
Deleted Account
I am happy to help but I don't think you'll cooperate
05:52
we need some videos to generate hype
05:52
aggressive marketing
05:52
I'm actually a top 10-15 amoveo rich list investor
TG
05:52
Toby Ganger
or really any marketing at all…just to create some brand awareness at least…community growth is a necessary component for use discovery
Z
05:52
Zack
Maybe in like 4 or 6 months it will make sense to do a marketing push
05:53
Deleted Account
I'm happy to find you a video guy for cheap, I'm not making anything off of it
05:53
I can choreograph the script, the video needs to show the full potential of amoveo. it needs to be tron style to show that it is an ethereum killer, controversy is good
05:53
in fact i see your tweets and I see potential for good marketing, but you didn't express it well enough
05:53
this is same reason BSV is so successful, you must talk shit about your competitors while aggrresively marketing it
05:54
I can help make this project a massive success if you're willing to cooperate with me on that front
Z
05:55
Zack
I can help you do a crowdfund smart contract on Amoveo to raise money for the project you are interested in. a dominant assurance contract.
but I wont pay you.
05:55
Deleted Account
ok
05:55
I would also like to propose a professional trolling team, in fact this is why monero became successful and BSV
05:56
but I need your support behind it, we need to grab the attention of chainlink people by aggressive trolling, I know how to do this
05:56
it requires marketing on reddit and bitcointalk and twitter, as well as 4chan to call this a "chainlink killer", 10x within a few months
Z
05:56
Zack
I will help you make smart contracts on Amoveo. I help anyone who wants to make smart contracts.
05:57
Deleted Account
great but I also need your voice in the community
05:57
how does the funding work?
05:57
you have a dev pool, I need funding from that to make it happen
05:58
In reply to this message
I wont pay anyone from the developer reward. I am not selling yet.
05:58
Deleted Account
no one will fund this then
Z
05:58
Zack
If you think the developer reward is too high, or that there should be a different reward like that to pay for something else, you can use futarchy to propose that to the Amoveo community.
05:58
Deleted Account
I never said that
05:59
I just said the problem is not enough resources or focus is devoted to marketing
05:59
you need to provoke the chainlink people
05:59
needs to be a big twitter campaign with you leading trolling chainlink
05:59
that is the only way
05:59
but you need someone like me or others to help automate the trolling through incentivizations for posts on reddit, etc
M
06:18
MKUltra
I think we still have time. No reason to push it. Amoveo is going to grow at its own pace
A
06:28
Alex
Does anyone know the present block reward and blocktime?
06:28
Trying to gauge present inflation levels
Z
06:29
Zack
you can look that up in the light node
06:31
you have to sync with the network, it is using merkle proofs to crypto-economically verify the current values
06:35
block time is 598.2 seconds. About 10 monutes. In practice, it seems to take 10% longer than whatever we set it to. So it is actually more like 11 minutes per block. 130 blocks per day.

block reward is 0.10382390 VEO.

so that is 13.5 veo per day for the block reward.
there is also about 2 veo per day for the developer reward.
So current inflation is about 15.5 veo per day.
With a market cap of about 70 000 veo.

15.5 per day is about 5650 per year. so the current annual inflation from rewards is about 8%.
06:36
My expectation is that if Amoveo became popular, we would increase the block reward to respond to the increased demand for new coins.
06:37
but the futarchy mechanism sometimes defies my expectations, so we will see.
TG
08:00
Toby Ganger
why would you presume that people would want to inflate the supply if it got more popular? why devalue their own investments? what do they stand to gain from that? even new buyers would be deterred by buying a newly inflated coin
Z
08:01
Zack
it is like how a company will operate at a loss to grow quickly.
Futarchy might decide that growing faster will lead to more profit down the road, instead of taking a smaller profit now.
TG
08:06
Toby Ganger
this is not a company…while a company can operate at a loss while gaining clientele and refining operations…a coin like this gives us absolutely no reason to think that it gains future value from doing that…..also…a business operating a loss can reverse that loss in the long run….a coin can’t really undo already inflated supply…..it quite literally serves no purpose
Z
08:07
Zack
the total value of smart contracts is limited by the total value of coins.
By mining more coins, there are more coins available for making more contracts, so more people can use it at the same time.
TG
08:29
Toby Ganger
better to move the decimal point than inflate the supply
Z
08:30
Zack
better for who?
TG
08:39
Toby Ganger
for the entire ecosystem….if your concern is whether or not there are enough units to go around that’s obviously silly as it is divisible by many decimal points so there will be plenty to go around…if you are concerned at those numbers appearing too small..then move the decimal….adding more coins is simply more harmful than helpful..and i have serious doubts if it’s even helpful at all
Z
08:40
Zack
it's not about whether there is enough units to go around.
If we want to support $X of contracts all at once, the market cap needs to be at least $X.
One way to make a market cap of $X is by paying miners to produce $X of currency.
TG
08:41
Toby Ganger
you can’t possibly think that….you increase the supply then the cost per unit goes down…the way to increase the market cap is to increase users..not supply
08:41
especially when supply is infinitely divisible
Z
08:42
Zack
the value of something is the cost to produce it.
08:43
if we spend $1 million on mining, then the market cap will be $1 higher. because that is the value of the rewards.
08:46
To produce $1 of gold metal, you need to spend about $1 to rent the land and equipment etc.
to produce $1 of bitcoin, you need to spend about $1 on equipment and electricity.
D
09:38
Desab
In reply to this message
This doesn't make sense to me
09:42
Value has to do with what people will pay for it
TG
14:26
Toby Ganger
In reply to this message
I’m literally stunned by the economic ignorance here….no….the value of something is completely subjective…it has nothing to do with the cost to produce it…
14:26
its value is simply what people are willing to pay for it…nothing more…nothing less
14:28
In reply to this message
it doesn’t make sense to anyone with any economic understanding…it’s completely ridiculous
D
14:32
Desab
To be fair I used to think that too. It's something alot of the btc maxis like to repeat
TG
14:51
Toby Ganger
In reply to this message
That makes no sense. There is no subset of economics other than marxists that disagree with marginal subjective value theory. Cost to produce is irrelevant. The relevant metric is what people are willing to pay. And people are willing to pay less per unit as the scarcity of an item decreases. This is just basics.
D
14:52
Desab
In reply to this message
Yes, of course
17:52
Deleted Account
The biggest problem with this project seems that it is a one man show. Everyone who comes to this group wants easy to use prediction markets and freaky derivatives, but end up having to read about hard to grasp rocket science theories.
In the mean time governance seems to work on other projects like Monero and Decred.
Also, single point of failure. If Zack suddenly meets the love of his life and wants to devote all his time to this sensation or god forbid some nasty shit happened to him, that would be a problem.
Thoughts?
17:53
An ICO would solve this 😂😂😂
17:54
Not even kidding
18:16
Deleted Account
By easy to use I meant a self explanatory UI, and interoperability with at least the Ethereum network, enabling bets in any ERC20 token, notably USDT.
Z
18:18
Zack
You can bet on the price of any erc20. Any national currency. Any sporting event.
18:22
Deleted Account
Can I use Tether as my choice of currency though?
GE
18:23
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
I agree - all bets have to be somehow hedged to usdt, eurs or btc
Z
18:23
Zack
You can create a synthetic asset that stays the same value as tether.

Amoveo is not an ethereum clone. We don't support stateful smart contracts or subcurrencies.
This is a part of the truth coin project. We only support financial derivatives.
18:23
In reply to this message
You can hedge to usd yes.
GE
18:24
Gatis Eglitis
It should be embeded in contract
18:24
To be user friendly
18:24
Instead of outside hedge
18:27
Deleted Account
My logic is this: I create a super exciting bet, which could attract a sizeable crowd. Out of 100 crypto people, which case would attract more:
If bets could only be made in VEO, or if the accepted currency would be Tether?
18:28
Thether you know, you have, or you can get it at almost any exchange.
GE
18:32
Gatis Eglitis
Outside hedge of veo also requires aditional capital
18:33
Either margined or fully paid
18:33
Zack is there a roadmap plan to address this ?
18:34
Deleted Account
Can you lock BTC like in atomic swaps?
18:35
Or VEO
GE
18:35
Gatis Eglitis
I need to lock EURs
18:35
Deleted Account
Yeah, Tether
GE
18:35
Gatis Eglitis
Like on escrow
18:35
Tether too
Z
18:35
Zack
In reply to this message
Every bet has to have an opposite side. If one person wants positive usd exposure, someone else needs to hold negative usd exposure.
GE
18:36
Gatis Eglitis
Its understood
18:36
The problem is that variable ccy in form of veo
Z
18:36
Zack
In reply to this message
Veo is the only currency in amoveo.
GE
18:36
Gatis Eglitis
Does not fit the need
18:36
In reply to this message
If it was as mainstream as btc, eurs, terher
Z
18:36
Zack
In reply to this message
Amoveo supports leveraged betting. So you need less capital.
GE
18:36
Gatis Eglitis
It would fit the need
Z
18:37
Zack
In reply to this message
Amoveo does not have btc. Atomic swaps are possible.
GE
18:37
Gatis Eglitis
If veo was pegged or had some floor to stables or btc
18:37
- could be interesting for real life applications
18:38
Otherwise mass adoption of veo needed - liquidity needed
Z
18:39
Zack
you can buy a short-veo contract with leverage to hedge the risk that veo will lose value
GE
18:43
Gatis Eglitis
Can hedge be somehow related to the veo deal so that it has defi nature and would not require aditional non-defi deals between prties that sign the contract?
18:44
Example, me and you make a deal which results in btc or stable payout - without risk to veo liquidity or market price ?
Z
18:44
Zack
Amoveo is a blockchain, that means everything you do with it is decentralized.
Amoveo is for derivatives, the basic unit of finance. So everything you do with amoveo is financial.
Therefore, everything you do with Amoveo is 100% defi.
18:45
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
11 out of 10 normies will freak out if they read something like this on a website 😁
GE
18:45
Gatis Eglitis
Can veo hedge be decentralized ?
Z
18:45
Zack
Amoveo only offers decentralized services
GE
18:45
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Looks like coinspeed also from business world
Z
18:45
Zack
nothing is centralized
GE
18:46
Gatis Eglitis
Business needs decentralized hedge of veo liquidity and market price
18:46
On veo bets
Z
18:46
Zack
In reply to this message
All Amoveo contracts get paid out in VEO.
GE
18:46
Gatis Eglitis
Its understood
18:46
Next level - decentralized hedge needed
18:46
Or veo mass adoption
18:47
Or veo peg to real economy
Z
18:47
Zack
you can make an Amoveo contract to bet that the price of VEO will go down. This hedges your risk.
18:47
so if VEO loses 30% of it's value, your contract pays you 30% more veo to cover the loss.
GE
18:48
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
The link between these two contracts should be defi
18:48
Somehow
Z
18:49
Zack
In reply to this message
what 2 contracts?
Amoveo contracts are turing complete. you can combine them however you want.
GE
18:49
Gatis Eglitis
Its understood
18:50
Imagine both are leveraged
Z
18:50
Zack
both of what?
GE
18:50
Gatis Eglitis
One gets margined - other not -
18:50
Hedge contrat and veo bet
18:50
In reply to this message
Hedge contract and veo contract
Z
18:50
Zack
ok, so one contract is to bet on a football game in veo, and the second contract is to hedge the veo risk
GE
18:51
Gatis Eglitis
Exactly
18:51
With leverage1:3
18:51
To complicate
Z
18:52
Zack
ok, so 3/4rds of your money is in the football bet, and 1/4 is in the hedge, and the hedge has 3x leverage.
So that means your margins on the hedge are if the price of veo drops more than 33%, then the hedge stops working if the price of veo keeps dropping.
18:52
if you increase leverage, then the margins become more narrow
18:53
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
It's pure science Vs rational business in here 😎
18:57
In reply to this message
This is great, but 99% of potential users can't grasp this and won't be bothered to learn. Guaranteed
Z
18:58
Zack
You can also combine the 2 bets into 1.
Like, you could lock 1/3rd of the money in the channel, and I could lock 2/3rds in.
If I win the bet on the football game, I get all the money from the channel. If you win the bet on the football game, you get twice as much money out, in USD terms. So if you bet $20 initially, you get $40 of veo out. and the remaining veo goes to me.
GE
18:58
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Most unicorns fial due to lack of business need - fingers crossed for veo
Z
18:59
Zack
the demand for financial derivatives is huge. one of the most popular products today.
18:59
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Their concept is as follows:
"So I can only bet in this weird coin, which is difficult to get?
I have ETH and Tether. Do you have anything for me?"
GE
18:59
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
It loses defi advantages if both are not linked in defi nature
Z
19:00
Zack
In reply to this message
idk what you mean by "defi nature".
Amoveo is 100% decentralized and 100% finance. everything it does is defi.
19:01
Deleted Account
Zack, you're a scientist. Scientists either do science stuff, or try to educate the masses. The two are historically incompatible.
GE
19:01
Gatis Eglitis
If defi contract promoter on web offers bets on veo plus hedge - trust of bet organizer is envolved - not defi nature of deal
Z
19:02
Zack
In reply to this message
Amoveo smart contracts use oracles to know the price of veo or the outcome of a football game. We don't use trust. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//design/oracle.md
GE
19:05
Gatis Eglitis
Why would i trust deal organizer that my hedge to btc or stables are placed properly on my veo deal and i dont run aditional risks ag stables and btc
Z
19:07
Zack
what is a "deal organizer"?
just follow the instructions and post your contract offer on the explorer, maybe someone will accept it https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/light_node/p2p_derivatives.md
19:08
set up your contract so it is hedged. Either someone accepts your contract, or no one accepts your contract.
GE
19:08
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Deal organizer = market maker
19:08
Normally
19:08
Dela organizer normally spams market of deal offers
Z
19:08
Zack
the p2p derivative tool is directly between pairs of people who want to bet together.
No market maker.
GE
19:08
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
This is true
19:09
In defi you would still have active market makers
19:09
That offer defi deals
19:09
Defi factor just merily injects trust into deal
19:09
But it does not change the structure of market
19:09
There will always be makers and takers
Z
19:09
Zack
so, "defi" to you means it needs to involve trust?
Then Amoveo is not defi, because we don't use trust.
GE
19:10
Gatis Eglitis
Trust in defi nature !
19:10
Trust in algo
19:10
Not ppl
19:11
Deleted Account
Is there a normie friendly UI for Amoveo?
Z
19:11
Zack
Once sortition chains are ready you will be able to act like a market maker in Amoveo and do single price batches to match trades.
We can't do market makers will just state channels, because contracts in different channels are not fungible.
GE
19:11
Gatis Eglitis
But - if hedge is not offered on same chain - there is also trust of maker for proper hedge contract formation
Z
19:12
Zack
In reply to this message
you can use hashlocking to connect different blockchains together.
But you don't need any other blockchain to do hedging. Amoveo can already do all the hedging we could need.
GE
19:13
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Cane we link in two amoveo bets ?
19:13
Whereas oraculs by declaration of result of one bet triggers other ?
Z
19:14
Zack
you can connect amoveo channels together with hashlocking to simultaneously update contracts in different channels. or you can change the oracle questions to combine different contracts into one contract. or you can change the turing complete software of a contract to do a combination of 2 contracts.
19:15
Deleted Account
Guys, think about this. For masses to use Amoveo, all you need is colourful buttons and sliders. That's how Bitmex and all other exchanges work. The masses don't want to complicate their experience with knowledge about oracles, chains, and hedges. They just want to lock their money into positions and press one word buttons.
Z
19:15
Zack
In reply to this message
Amoveo contracts are all off-chain and private.
If you and I made a contract in a channel, it isn't possible for us to prove to anyone else what we are betting on in our channel.
GE
19:16
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Masses still read redit experts
19:16
And seek for bilatorally transparent conditions
19:17
Not one sided trade conditons
19:17
With small caps in corner
19:17
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Sure they do. But only after they see simple tools that even monkeys can use
GE
19:17
Gatis Eglitis
+++
19:18
Defi nature + monkey tools = unicorn+
19:18
Marekt cap
19:18
Need has to be there
19:19
Deleted Account
The need comes with pictures of shiny things 😁
GE
19:19
Gatis Eglitis
Business need is to somehow peg veo price to btc or stables
19:19
In defi nature
19:19
With no trust to makers involved
19:20
In reply to this message
No fun - just hard work here
19:21
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
No need to peg. All the exchange and lock and contract functionality has to be in the background. If respected scientists say that "yeah, it works", then adoption will come.
19:22
VEO price can shoot up to the moon, but it shouldn't affect the value of bets involved.
19:23
It just needs to work as expected
19:23
In reply to this message
👍
Z
19:24
Zack
if veo price goes up a lot, it shouldn't be a problem for any contracts.
But if the veo price falls a lot, it could be a problem for people holding short-veo contracts. Eventually the price hits a margin, and then the contract stops operating correctly.
19:25
what is nice about Amoveo is that each person can decide for themselves how wide of margins they are willing to pay for. Each person pays for as much security as they need.
19:28
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
This is the problem with DAI. As long as price goes up, everyone is happy. But when your 150% colletaral gets liquidated, then that's not a happy day.
Z
19:29
Zack
In reply to this message
DAI is a one size fits all system. Everyone has to pay for the same amount of security, and when it breaks, it will break for everyone.

With Amoveo stablecoin contracts each contract has different security parameters. Each person only pays for as much security as they want. And when it breaks, only the contracts with lower amounts of security break.
19:32
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
I get this, but as long as this knowledge is a requirement for safely playing with decentralised bets, centralised entities offering the same functionality will reign unchallenged.
19:42
In reply to this message
Also, if DAI was a project on any other network smaller than Ethereum, it would be a fraction of what it is now in terms of volume and probably would've crashed already.
The way I see it is this:
VEO needs many orders of magnitude larger liquidity for the hedging system to work and that's not going to happen in the short term.
The next best idea is make foreign currencies available for settlement, with VEO in the background as the utility token.
Please change my mind.
GE
19:44
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Its ok - but should be with open code
19:44
Otherwise not defi nature
Z
19:45
Zack
In reply to this message
>make foreign currencies available for settlement
I don't understand what you are suggesting.
GE
19:45
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Its not ok for those whobare short veo leg
19:47
If i was to settle veo on barcelona win - barcelona won and veo wnt to the moon - i would lose more than anticiapted in real economy terms
19:47
Nothing but frustration
19:47
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
I deposit USDT into a contract and get USDT back if I win. And I don't care the slightest how it works in the background.
GE
19:48
Gatis Eglitis
If you wanted to lose 10 eurs but lost 10000 eurs @ market value on expiry of bet on barcelona win - would you be frustrated?
Z
19:48
Zack
In reply to this message
I don't understand the example. Why would you lose?
GE
19:49
Gatis Eglitis
I guess term structure of veo ag btc or stables can resolve it
Z
19:50
Zack
In reply to this message
not caring how it works is a UX problem.
If you put a nice user interface on top, no one has to care how it works in the background.
It doesn't matter if it uses USDT or VEO or BTC, you don't have to care.
19:50
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
If this is made possible, you'll have a dozen teams working on different UI implementations
Z
19:50
Zack
In reply to this message
if you only put 10 euro into the bet contract, it is not possible to lose more than 10 euro.
19:52
In reply to this message
putting subcurrencies or other stateful contracts onto blockchains is a mistake.
We can offer all the same contracts to our users, and we can also be extremely scalable.
stateful contracts like subcurrencies are anti-scalable. They prevent the blockchain from getting big, and they create expensive fees for txs.
GE
19:52
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
If veo moves to the moon ag eurs - it is possible
19:52
If i am short
Z
19:53
Zack
In reply to this message
an Amoveo contract only has access to veo that you lock into it.
GE
19:53
Gatis Eglitis
Ppl want to bet on sometbing they are happy to hold on even markets vanish
19:53
Btc
19:53
Eurs
19:53
Usdt
19:54
Maybe it is veo in future - but not today
19:54
How do we solve it?
19:56
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
OTOH denying the possibility for interoperability with widely adopted payment networks will guarantee that you won't have scalability issues 😁
20:00
The one token that dominantly powers the crypto ecosystem today is Tether and it lives on the highly unscalable Ethereum network.
GE
20:01
Gatis Eglitis
Its another issue
Z
20:02
Zack
People are always like "The only way Amoveo can possibly succeed is if you throw out all your code, and instead have it be a fork of Ethereum."

If you think Ethereum's strategy is best, then invest in Ethereum.

If we try to compete with Ethereum by being an exact clone, and we are like 1000x smaller than them, I think that is a situation where it would be impossible to win.

If we are to win, it will be because we can do things that Ethereum cannot do.
We have a plan that is more scalable, and more affordable than Ethereum. We should not abandon our advantages to be an Ethereum clone.
GE
20:02
Gatis Eglitis
American dolar is even less scalable
20:02
Than usdt
20:02
Yet more used
Z
20:02
Zack
In reply to this message
100 million people could simultaneously hand $0.05 to each other in USD.
That is far more scalable than any blockchain today.
GE
20:03
Gatis Eglitis
Yeah - on fraudulent non transparent networks
20:03
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Who said that Amoveo should fork to Ethereum? Just make it possible for your network to interact with other chains solely for the purpose of making bets possible in other currencies.
Z
20:04
Zack
Amoveo already supports betting on the price of any currency
20:04
Deleted Account
I give up 😂
I
20:06
Instinct
In reply to this message
💯
20:08
Deleted Account
Zack, I get all your points, but I also see that you don't want to make it easier for Amoveo to become a dominant force in its field of specialty. May your kingdom thrive! Will be watching.
GE
20:11
Gatis Eglitis
If no hard defi arguments brought forward to hedge veo liquidity and price to any of stables or btc - there is no use case in business
20:12
Unless voe market cap is within top 10
20:12
Deleted Account
It feels like Blocknet. They've been devving for 5 years now and just recently celebrated their biggest trading day ever, a single swap worth $160k. That's also 1/3 of their aggregated lifetime volume. Says a lot.
I
20:13
Instinct
In reply to this message
He’s said development is more important than marketing right now & ux improvements can be made when the time comes
GE
20:15
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Whats the use of great peace of art with no users ?
20:18
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
For example, its token can pump 50x every 2-3 years 😁
I
20:21
Instinct
In reply to this message
Public do not usually view the work while it’s still in progress 😉
21:12
Deleted Account
Does anyone in here know what Link is capable of? Apart from being an overinflated hype project claiming superb interoperability?
Z
21:27
Zack
In reply to this message
I made a review of chainlink https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//other_blockchains/chainlink.md
It is somewhat out of date now
I
21:38
Instinct
In reply to this message
It’s just a trusted feed system basically
b
23:17
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
In reply to this message
Maybe the right users still haven't arrived
23:18
But Zack is still preparing for that moment, shouting that he should move forward with marketing before won't happen
23:19
I have been following a project since 2015 and the project started in 2002. they still aren't in version 1.
Impressive
23:19
Takes a lot of time to break some things
17 February 2020
J
00:24
Juggy
If you want the input from a complete noob, the lack of a gui wallet was a real turn off and I was ok with holding but it never felt like the coins were mine if they weren't in a wallet in my possession.
Z
00:24
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo here is a gui wallet.
J
00:27
Juggy
Isn't this a website where you enter info
Z
00:27
Zack
you can download the file and open it from on your own computer. no website.
00:28
it uses the browser as a gui
00:28
it is a light node. it downloads the headers and verifies proof of work.
00:28
so you have cryptoeconomic guarantees for the information it displays.
J
00:34
Juggy
I get it but you understand it's not the traditional GUI, a program that sits on your computer and opens on your computer with your keys in it. If you understand that 75% of crypto users are complete nubs like me and are just casual investors or gamblers do like to do this for fun then you need to get those people included
Z
00:35
Zack
In reply to this message
It is exactly that. You double click it and it opens in a browser. Simple as can be.
00:35
Oh, you have to add keys as a second step.
00:35
Doing that in one step would be a nice upgrade.
J
00:36
Juggy
lol trust me, there are far bigger noobs than me and even i was worried I'd get it wrong
I
01:28
Instinct
In reply to this message
You can use exan techs wallet
J
02:36
Juggy
I get it, but there's no official wallet. Do I trust a third party app to do it?
02:36
Or I should say, no official wallet that everyone is used to interacting with
I
02:42
Instinct
In reply to this message
It’s open source, they’re part of the community too. There’s no official bitcoin wallet is there?
02:43
You can use with ledger too
J
02:43
Juggy
Agreed
S
04:37
Sy
The official wallet is the light node, you can clone and run it locally on any os
mx
06:29
mr x
official wallet neeeds auto sync and auto balance updates😅
Z
06:29
Zack
it can do auto balance in some cases
06:29
if you sync first before loading the pubkey
mx
06:30
mr x
yea
Z
06:30
Zack
auto-sync when you open the page would be nice.
mx
06:31
mr x
yes and no need to do it again when switching between pages
06:32
show unconfirmed balance for some instant feedback hmm
K
06:35
K
In reply to this message
How do you expect to bribe 51% of the network without any major exchanges realising
06:36
And shutting off deposits
06:37
Surely in an attack like that, the attack will have to be widely advertised on the network to almost everyone
Z
06:38
Zack
In reply to this message
maybe we can remember a cookie or something of the top block hash, so we don't need to re-sync on refreshing the page.
06:40
In reply to this message
If it is cheap to cause all the exchanges to shut off deposits, and it is cheap to steal money on mainnet and it is cheap to undo any txs on mainnet, then that means the blockchain is broken.

It doesn't matter if it is profitable for the attacker, or if the attacker has to pay a little to do the attack.
If the attack is cheap, that means it is broken.
mx
06:42
mr x
or make it a single page app :)
Z
06:58
Zack
oh yeah, what if someone manipulates your cookie.
you could work so hard to protect the light node software, but it wouldn't matter if they could manipulate that one header
JS
07:42
Jon Snow
The large sell wall on qtrade has been market bought over the last two days BTW. People are taking advantage of this sell wall and accumulating
C
09:49
Callum Wright
In reply to this message
There are time for everything. Personal opinion: I would wait for sortion chain to be on production first before any agressive marketing push
09:49
We have enough p&d and vapourware with all hype in this market already, let's not make one more.
09:51
Base layer of Amoveo needs to be solid so derivative products can be built on, after that there would be things that worth to market
I
16:02
Instinct
In reply to this message
Agreed
23:45
Deleted Account
has the block reward changed in the past 6 months?
18 February 2020
MF
01:14
Mr Flintstone
think so
01:16
oh guess not, last time was June 2019
Z
01:16
Zack
how did you check?
MF
01:18
Mr Flintstone
myveowallet.com
K
03:17
K
In reply to this message
Are you going to try and attack pos networks anytime soon?
03:21
In reply to this message
Is there any info on it?
03:21
In reply to this message
What coin did he try it on and when?
03:22
He didn’t try to attack them
03:22
He just argued with their devs
03:22
I was watching it live
03:23
You do realize the only reason bitcoin has been alive for 10 years is because of miners incentive to make money
03:24
Vast majority act for profit
03:25
Yes but that’s a minority
03:25
In reply to this message
He never argued that
03:26
You don’t need 100% to do a bribery attack
03:26
You just need the majority
03:26
Or even less in some blockchains
03:27
In reply to this message
... why did you reply saying he did attack one if he didn’t
Z
04:54
Zack
In reply to this message
It is hard to deal with so many txs to make lots of channels for bribes.
Sortition chains should make the bribes much cheaper.
ŽM
05:13
Živojin Mirić
Zcak can't prove bribery attack of any PoS coin that is not a microcap.
05:13
FACT
05:32
Deleted Account
zack is a technical master, but business idiot at same time
05:32
but also not understanding empirical or theoretical evidence
05:32
defi is huge, ethereum has a real use case already, $ 1 billion locked up
05:33
the way they got it is by marketing and business
K
05:49
K
In reply to this message
We just need to raise money for someone to create 4chan bots to make a cult around amoveo
05:51
Should be easy due to Zacks cleverness and cool theories
05:51
This could become the next chainlink
Z
05:53
Zack
How about the 4chan bot looks for keywords, and then posts a link to one of my reviews. So it just goes around telling everyone why their project is broken.
K
05:54
K
In reply to this message
Yep. For an underground coin like Amoveo, literally anything could work and give us a cult following
05:55
Once we have a small cult they'll take over the job of spreading the word
06:08
Deleted Account
wow this is great, I'm glad you guys are taking these ideas seriously, it's very important
Z
06:16
Zack
In reply to this message
What makes Amoveo, Amoveo?
This is a community where we can truly be ourselves, a place where we belong.
Amoveo is a product to allow you to express yourself, and become more you.
Amoveo is a lifestyle that rejects hierarchy, we use futarchy to make our decisions instead.
We are a group of people gathered together to celebrate this difference in ourselves, this love of reason and freedom that makes us who we are.

We are united to stop a great evil. The evil of hierarchy. Corrupt leaders take advantage of their power in hierarchies to exploit those who work under them. We don't blame the corrupt leaders, we blame the evil games they play that influence them to become who they are.

Today we are announcing Amoveo level 2.
This is for members of the Amoveo community who want to be even more involved with the process of planning and creating this community.
If you feel qualified to join the level 2 Amoveo forum, send me your application, and you will be considered.
K
06:17
K
In reply to this message
Is that the message the bot will be sending out?
l
06:19
lyzer
In reply to this message
Congrats Zack, love your vision 👌
06:36
Deleted Account
has there been any changes to block reward in past 6 months?
06:36
inflation is a big concern for a coin like this, since it can explode and investment go to 0
Z
06:37
Zack
Amoveo uses futarchy to make decisions about how big the block reward should be. So we can quickly adapt to optimize for changing conditions.
06:38
Deleted Account
yes but in practice what has happened to past 6 months
K
06:38
K
In reply to this message
If someone creates a vote to change the block reward, how is it enforced?
Z
06:40
Zack
In reply to this message
the block reward started as 1 veo, and it has mostly gone down since then. I guess the last time it was reduced was in June, which was more than 6 months ago.
06:41
In reply to this message
there is no voting. Amoveo uses futarchy. Here is documentation on the process https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//basics/using_governance.md
06:41
Deleted Account
ok so what's the current supply, and at current block reward rate how much veos will be produced in one year?
Z
06:43
Zack
In reply to this message
you can see I answered that recently. @cj297
06:43
about 8% per year
06:43
currently
06:54
Deleted Account
ok
06:54
wait but each year it is a less percent than 8% because block reward remains constant right
Z
06:54
Zack
the block reward can change up or down from futarchy
I
07:02
Instinct
In reply to this message
If it remained the same yes
07:07
Deleted Account
8% too high ratio, we should make it lower
07:08
since this project may take a very long time before marketing starts
07:09
it would be good if zack can spend about 20% of his time at least focus on marketing
07:09
he can delegate tasks to amoveo fans, to write articles about veo and post on different subreddits
07:09
starting with lowest hanging fruit
Z
07:18
Zack
ok .. .
I delegate to you the task of writing an article about veo, and posting it on some subreddits.
Z
09:43
Zack
the sortition branch of the code, now you can put state channels inside of the sortition chain.
09:52
so, the last big feature to add to the sortition chains is the ability to make that one final spend before it ends, even if the validators want to censor you.
09:54
after that we will make a bunch more tests to be sure it works and is secure.
S
13:07
Sebsebzen
What will amoveo level 2 forum be like?
[
15:43
[Riki]
level 2 stats:
+70 dev basement armor
+25% pleb resistance
ŽM
15:45
Živojin Mirić
I am level 3 community member
Deleted invited Deleted Account
ŽM
15:46
Živojin Mirić
We already have our lvl3 chat
15:46
Wat is
S
16:04
Sebsebzen
Zack is the dungeon master
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
19:14
Zack
In reply to this message
it is a place where you can feel like you belong. Where we can work together to stop the evil in this world. A place where you can be yourself.
But it isn't easy to get in. Only the very best applications are accepted.
S
19:15
Sebsebzen
In reply to this message
Manbludgeoningcrabsonbeach-level1mmocharacter.jpg
19:16
In reply to this message
Nicely written. What kind of skills are you looking for?
Z
19:17
Zack
A wide variety of skills can be used to gain entry, but you have got to be legitimately dedicated to ending the corrupt hierarchies that dominate our world today.
S
19:18
Sebsebzen
Is the emphasis on corrupt or hierarchy?
Z
19:19
Zack
what is the difference?
S
19:19
Sebsebzen
There can be voluntary hierarchies
19:21
But I get your point is about hierarchies in the macro sense, not let’s say in my hobby softball team
Z
19:22
Zack
If you want to upgrade your softball team to use futarchy for all it's decisions, Amoveo is here to help.
S
19:23
Sebsebzen
Sadly hierarchies usually boil down to men with guns
ŽM
19:23
Živojin Mirić
can you make Amoveo so fast and scalable that it's being used during a game for fast decisions? :OOOO
S
19:24
Sebsebzen
How can end them without guns ourselves, or aircraft carrier
ŽM
19:25
Živojin Mirić
ok thx
Z
19:26
Zack
In reply to this message
Channels can be updated fast. But if your channel partner stops participating, enforcement is slow.
So it isn't so good for chess, for example.
ŽM
19:26
Živojin Mirić
so it can't be used for softball game coaching :(
19:26
only for some more general strategies
Z
19:27
Zack
In reply to this message
With futarchy.
Futarchy is stronger than guns. It is an evolutionary survival of the fittest situation. Communities that use futarchy to make decisions will out-compete communities that use guns to make decisions.
ŽM
19:27
Živojin Mirić
not if guns kill first then decide what to do next
19:27
for example kill the bribers
S
19:28
Sebsebzen
If they start out at the same spot yes. But right now gun community dominates all
Z
19:28
Zack
In reply to this message
A softball team could use futarchy to decide whether to upgrade the team van, or which uniform to get, or which teams to play against this season, or who should we let onto the team. Lots of things.
ŽM
19:28
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
yes I understand that
S
19:28
Sebsebzen
If they see a threat, they will nip it in the bud
ŽM
19:28
Živojin Mirić
it is very great
Z
19:30
Zack
In reply to this message
Even people who have benefited from violence would prefer to live in a less violent world.

As long as violence is the way to take control, they are at risk of being violently overthrown. If we switch to futarchy, then they can maintain their wealth and power in the new era of peace.
S
19:34
Sebsebzen
I’d say there’s few things to that. Many of the people at the top are sociopaths and they come to very different conclusions that normal people like, let’s assume, us. It’s true that they fear the most of losing their power. So every elite always aims to cement their status. However, they also want to cement it for their offspring and there’s no guarantee that those will inherit the same skills or smartness, that’s where the system usually starts to rot. Could futarchy also ensure that the top’s offspring maintains their wealth and power?
ŽM
19:34
Živojin Mirić
I will make it my life goal to become worthy of qualifying to enter Amoveo LVL2 community
19:35
Wouldn't it be Best that futarchy decides who can get in Zack?
19:36
Otherwise it's a classic hierarchy..
S
19:37
Sebsebzen
I think Milton Friedman has a good take on it, don’t have the quote. The only chance to get fair money is if it happens so stealthy or suddenly that they can’t shut it down.
Z
19:37
Zack
In reply to this message
There is no guarantee that their offspring would survive in a world of violence either.
People want their children to have wealth and power, but they also want them to have peaceful safe lives.

Many wealthy people set up trust funds, so their children don't have access to too much money at once.
ŽM
19:41
Živojin Mirić
I am puzzled Zack can you please answer me
Z
19:41
Zack
In reply to this message
That is the kind of thinking we need more of around here. How to use futarchy to replace every hierarchy.
ŽM
19:42
Živojin Mirić
thank you!
20:18
Can't find the exantech chat but I think mentioning how VEO goes above and beyond to make sure the platform is the most secure platform for DEFI on earth and mentioning a few abstract ways in which defi platforms were exploited as to why VEO has such a huge emphasis on abstract attack vectors is a good idea
Z
20:19
Zack
In reply to this message
yes, good idea
20:23
In reply to this message
they used 4 different defi platforms, haha!
20:26
Recovering from attacks ties in with governance. I think we could make a good transition to talking about how futarchy allows a blockchain to adapt to a changing environment, without depending on any centralized control.
K
20:32
K
In reply to this message
Also, it's a good example of an exploit existing for ages and no one exploiting it - like POS. Basically a ticking time bomb
GJ
21:05
Guillermo Joya
Amazing progress on Amoveo. Wow this is the best project out there.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
21:35
Tromp
Anyone know how to buy amoveo or crypto in rubles in russia?
Z
21:45
Zack
In reply to this message
Good point. You've practically written the piece for me.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
22:17
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/other_blockchains/Feb_2020_defi_hack.md here is the first draft. What do you think?
m
22:33
mm
Zack, do you think final version of Amoveo should be written in erlang? I’m especially concerned about accessibility for new developers. If it’s obstacle for Amoveo improvements and expansion.
Z
22:35
Zack
I don't know.
A re-write wouldn't be very difficult, the code base is fairly small.
m
22:35
mm
In reply to this message
First link is broken
22:36
Also 3rd link
Z
22:36
Zack
In reply to this message
got it, thanks
22:37
In reply to this message
refresh the page, it should work now.
m
22:40
mm
I’d love to see more technical details in this article
22:40
Zack, what about google doc with collaboration enabled so people can suggest edits?
Z
22:40
Zack
you can suggest edits on github too
m
22:43
mm
In reply to this message
With PRs? Sorry for such nitpicking, but laziness is my strong side and Probably most of the people are too lazy to make PR too. Or is there some other way in GitHub?
Z
22:45
Zack
In reply to this message
prs are pretty nice. it maintains a history of who wrote which parts.
And it makes the project look better if there is a history of more than one contributor.
Or you can copy/paste stuff and just message me.
22:52
Much better explanation than link from the article, at least should be added for technical details
Z
22:53
Zack
ok, I added that link
m
22:54
mm
Also I don’t agree that security definition for Amoveo is superior.
22:54
Compare to this
Z
22:55
Zack
that is a threat model. the document I linked to is a definition of the word "security".
22:58
you are comparing completely unrelated things.
Do you want to see a threat model for some part of Amoveo?
m
22:59
mm
Yeah, I’m probably missing how does compose in the bigger picture
Z
23:00
Zack
it already links to the oracle documents. im not sure what more you want to see
23:05
the difference between "the definition of security", and "a threat model", is kind of like the difference between "what it means to have oxygen in your bloodstream", and "engineering documentation on how to construct scuba gear, for a person to breath under water".
m
23:12
mm
In reply to this message
Yeah, but in this doc mix high level definitions and some threats (something that is part of treat modeling). Why such levels of trust? Why this specific examples eg “spend money” or “gas griefing”?
23:14
Also, vuln in DeFi was about technical implementation (undercollaterlization), not oracle design. So how this doc proves that Amoveo has better security? It links to oracle design in Amoveo, not about security of technical implementation
Z
23:14
Zack
There is already a history in the cryptocurrency community of distinguishing between attacks that are profitable, vs attacks that destroy more than they cost, vs attacks that cost more than they destroy.
I just tried to formalize it.
m
23:16
mm
In reply to this message
Honestly I don’t understand concept of this document. I’m pretty sure you have much better understanding of this in your head, but it’s not digestible enough without this knowledge - eg specific attacks, other research etc for people outside
Z
23:18
Zack
In reply to this message
the vulnerability was rather complicated. part of it was because it used an on-chain market as a price oracle for a different tool. This is an insecure oracle design.

Saying that "under-collaterolization" is a security flaw doesn't make sense.
Different people have different needs that are served by their derivatives. They are using them to hedge different financial situations. They are holding them for different amounts of time.
So the different people need different sized margins, which means they need different levels of collaterolization.
m
23:21
mm
I’d love to see this explained in your article. 👍
23:21
But this linked article explains it didn’t check if it’s safe to liquidate
23:23
That was the issue. Maybe there were more issues on different levels that would also prevent this, but it’s more about initial assumptions and risk acceptance
23:25
In reply to this message
And this was implementation bug. They provided stack trace analysis there of this.
MF
23:48
Mr Flintstone
I think this latest one was an issue of too much derivatives liquidity vs amount of liquidity in the reference spot order book (used as price oracle I think) and the ability to have immediate settlement. so you get exposure with the derivative then profit by moving the spot market a lot and closing your derivative, all within the same block
m
23:54
mm
Oh nice, I jus saw tweet that there was another attack, with different technical details, something about abusing oracle itself
MF
23:56
Mr Flintstone
ya I’m describing what I think the second one was
19 February 2020
MF
00:01
Mr Flintstone
flash loans are pretty cool, they enable all kinds of attacks that used to be capital intensive for very cheap now
00:02
so the attacks are way more profitable and easier to execute
00:02
such is life with on-chain markets I guess
02:05
Deleted Account
amoveo just slowly dwindle to 0 lol
Z
02:08
Zack
come on guys, this is for talking about Amoveo.
We have a channel on discord for talking about prices
GE
02:09
Gatis Eglitis
Pumpers have no dignity
02:09
Deleted Account
zack how will you compete with ethereum without the turing complete functionality
02:09
flash loans are a groundbreaking invention
02:09
liquidity literally becomes frictiohnless, totally insane
02:10
i just read more about flash loans today, holy crap
Z
02:10
Zack
Amoveo has turing complete smart contracts.
02:10
Deleted Account
not enforceable like eth since every node verifies
02:10
nobody would trust amoveo like that
02:14
why don't you connect amoveo to the etheruem network?
02:14
missing out on a huge ecosystem
Z
02:15
Zack
In reply to this message
it is an arbitrage tool.
As long as you aren't printing new money, no final balances go negative, and all the contracts are obeyed, there is no reason for them to care if you have a negative intermediate balance.
02:16
Deleted Account
yes exactly
02:16
it's a genius arbitrage true
02:16
insane, there has never been such easy access to liquidity
02:16
they literally invented like a quantum computer
02:16
groundbreaking shit
Z
02:16
Zack
the existence of arbitrage is an inefficiency.
In a perfectly designed market, there would be none.
02:17
Deleted Account
i haven't touched eth in like 2 years and only today looked at the progress, it's going to change the world
02:17
yes, but the arbitrage will head to 0 because of flash loans
02:17
flash loans is as great as an invention as erc 20 tokens
02:18
i feel like im high now even without taking drugs, like i discovered something insane
02:18
if amoveo can pivot to do something with eth and this new liquidity it can be big
02:18
holy shit flash loans, is this just like 1 month old?
02:19
please look into flash loans, shit will change the world
Z
02:19
Zack
In reply to this message
when someone profits using an arbitrage tool, that means some other user lost some money.
Finance is a closed system. if someone profits, someone else needs to lose.
If it is possible to use flash loans, that means the system has inefficiencies that creates unnecessary extra costs for the users.
02:20
Deleted Account
yes but eventually arbitrage converges to 0 if you have enough access to liquidity
02:20
i agree, the existing system has inefficiencies, but the inefficiencies will now head to 0 becuase of the insanely genius flash loans invention
02:20
this changes everything for eth
02:21
it reminds me a lot of when i first discovered eth tokens, and then a huge bubble came and huge use cases
Z
02:24
Zack
Lets walk through the steps more slowly.
Lets say I want to bet that Tesla will succeed.
So I buy defi shares saying that Tesla will increase in value.

If, the act of me purchasing the Tesla shares created some arbitrage opportunity that could be used by a flash loan, that means I must have over-paid for my Tesla shares.
I must have over-paid for the Tesla shares, because where else could the arbitrage profit come from?

Yes, whoever is first to do the arbitrage trade, they take the free money, and then the free money is no longer available for any other person to take by arbitrage.

The fact that free money was ever available is the problem. That free money came from a user, who had to pay an unnecessary cost.
02:25
Deleted Account
that free money is literally risk free, what do you mean
02:25
that user is a free economic participant, obviously he benefits
02:25
this is the dumbest thing I have heard like in a week in crypto to be honest
02:27
nobody is forcing that guy to lend the money
02:27
so what he's doing is the best use of his capital, because he can literally do anything else with his money
Z
02:27
Zack
the person taking arbitrage has risk free profit.
The person trying to buy Tesla shares has an unnecessary cost, which is going to fund the arbitrage-doer.
02:28
Deleted Account
then why is he doing it?
02:28
if it's an unnecessary cost
02:28
obviously there is some benefit to him
02:28
that's how a free market works
02:29
have you read nicholas nassib taleb?
Z
02:29
Zack
maybe because it is the cheapest opportunity available, or because he doesn't know about other opportunities.
A blockchain with unnecessary costs will eventually get out-competed by one that does not have any unnecessary costs.
02:29
Deleted Account
doesn't matter what the reason is, but in a free economy, he's doing what is best for him as a rational actor
02:30
this is a prime example of "intellectual yet idiot" , a concept formulated by nicholas nassim taleb
02:30
you try to describe the reasoning but miss the obvious point
02:31
I hope you really talk to more people in crypto, I think you miss so much of the obvious
K
02:42
K
In reply to this message
Has good info but maybe someone from exantech can edit it slightly to look a bit more professional. They wrote the website pretty well
Z
02:43
Zack
i think exantech stopped caring about Amoveo
K
02:43
K
In reply to this message
Ah shit.
02:44
I’ll try edit some parts but for the most part it looks good
Z
02:45
Zack
maybe it needs a picture of someone with a ski mask sitting at a computer
K
02:45
K
'We created a superior definition *of*'
02:45
on the first line
Z
02:46
Zack
got it
S
02:53
Sebsebzen
In reply to this message
Hope they’re just waiting for more stable version coming out
Z
02:53
Zack
yeah maybe. They never tell me much of what they are doing.
S
02:55
Sebsebzen
Which is ok if it’s bitcoin / blockstream relationship
K
02:58
K
Here's my rewrite:
02:58
We at Amoveo have always taken security very seriously. We created a superior definition of security based on mathematical principles that almost no projects have managed to meet and used it to arguably build the most robust platform for decentralized finance.

There have been doubts as to whether such a high level of security is needed however when constructing systems where millions or even billions of dollars are at stake, attackers will stop at nothing to try and exploit system.
Recently several defi systems on Ethereum were hacked https://decrypt.co/19612/how-a-genius-hacker-made-350000-exploiting-defi
Technical details of the attack https://www.palkeo.com/en/projets/ethereum/bzx.html

Alarmingly, this recent hack was of an exploit that had been existing for a long time but had gone unnoticed due to developers not having the paranoia that we at Amoveo have about security. Like a ticking time bomb, devastating security vulnerabilities can lurk in systems that haven't thouroughly conducted the proper research. A lot of the times, security vulnerabilities are completely abstract and extremely complex, in-fact the lead developer of Amoveo has discovered such exploits in many blockchains using Proof of Stake and other voting mechanisms to operate.

Attempting to recover from these attacks demonstrates another major weakness of modern decentalized finance. Most projects have centralized governance systems, which can further be considered a vulnerability. If there is a person or team that can make the decision to turn a smart contract off, or update the smart contract, then it is centralized and insecure. Futarchy is the only known secure protocol for a group of people to make a decision together. All defi projects need futarchy, so that they can adapt to the ever changing environment that we live in, and recover when things go unexpected.

A good DeFi system has two important pieces that need to be secure. It needs a secure oracle system to bring in data to the blockchain about the world. For example, if the blockchain knows the price of USD or gold, then we can make an asset that stays the same value as USD or gold. And a secure trading system to match trades and prevent any front-running, free options, or other trading system exploits.

These 2 pieces are sufficient to allow for futarchy governance.

This is why Amoveo is the leading standard for secure decentralized finance in the industry.

You can learn about Amoveo's oracle here https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//design/oracle.md

You can learn about the current iteration of the trading system on Amoveo here https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/light_node/p2p_derivatives.md
Z
02:59
Zack
you think we should remove the link to trust_theory?
03:00
oh, the embedded link disappeared because you copy/pasted
03:00
yeah, it looks good
K
03:01
K
why am i studying computer science. should have picked marketing swear to god
03:02
We should get a medium page up for amoveo too
03:04
Should I repost all the arguments you wrote against other chains on medium?
Z
03:06
Zack
I updated it.
I don't want to maintain any more website accounts.
You can repost stuff if you want. I am not sure if that is the most effective thing to do or not.
K
03:07
K
In reply to this message
Thanks. I think github is good for other devs but for the general public, reading stuff on github might be a put off
03:07
Shouldn't take too long, i'll take care of it
K
03:08
Kalinoff
In reply to this message
General public doesn’t care about blockchain
K
03:08
K
In reply to this message
By general public I mean crypto noobs who read flashy articles and throw their money at coins
K
03:09
Kalinoff
In reply to this message
They don’t bring any value
K
03:09
K
In reply to this message
They bring price value
K
03:10
Kalinoff
In reply to this message
Whales bring value, noobs lose money
K
03:10
K
In reply to this message
Check out chainlink
03:11
For a project as small as Amoveo, literally a $1000 buy can double the price
03:11
probably more
03:11
There's a reason projects like NYZO are taking off and we aren't
K
03:11
Kalinoff
In reply to this message
In that sense check out 4chan
K
03:12
K
In reply to this message
Yeah. I've really wanted someone to try run bots on 4chan that create posts on amoveo conspiracies
03:12
I can't code bots for shit though
S
03:15
Sebsebzen
4chan memes indeed would be the easiest way to spread amoveo with no budget
K
03:16
K
In reply to this message
Yep. Once the ball gets rolling we won't even need to operate bots too as Amoveo as actual substance behind it
03:17
should try raise some funds through futarchy for this
S
03:17
Sebsebzen
I’d support it
03:17
Zack DACs working now?
Z
03:18
Zack
Yes
S
03:19
Sebsebzen
Btw will there be direct budget for level 2 members? E.g. someone does community management. Does he/she get funding from the dev reward? Or is each and everything to be done via futarchy
Z
03:20
Zack
So the 4 chan bot should look for a keyword, like "chainlink", and then post a link to an article about why chainlink doesn't work, and say something polite about being confused.
03:21
In reply to this message
Level 2 doesn't get funding from dev reward.
S
03:21
Sebsebzen
How about level 3 :)
Z
03:22
Zack
We had some nice discussions in level 2 lately.
S
03:22
Sebsebzen
Basically I’m checking if you are planning on building a team
Z
03:22
Zack
I'm not hiring anyone.
K
03:24
K
In reply to this message
Would you also be in support of making the supply 700million instead of 70,000?
03:24
because I honestly think that will help a lot. Alll the new flashy projects have high supplies
S
03:24
Sebsebzen
We had that discussion a year ago or so
K
03:24
K
or would a super low supply make us stand out
S
03:25
Sebsebzen
mVEO
03:25
But it was confusing
03:25
I mean easiest ist just to say VEO and mVEO
03:25
Like Sats
K
03:26
K
Yeah. We should try and get exchanges to list VEO as mVEO though, similar to IOTA and MIOTA
03:26
nvm
03:26
that's way too big actually
GE
03:28
Gatis Eglitis
Can supply of veo be limieted somehow ?
Z
03:29
Zack
Maybe it is limited. We just don't know it yet
K
03:29
K
In reply to this message
yeah through futarchy
Z
03:29
Zack
In reply to this message
I think not even futarchy is powerful enough to stop itself from changing its mind later
GE
03:33
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Limitation of emission is critical element of adoption.
03:34
When we started first bitcoin fund in 2012 - we invested in 1. Open code, 2. limited supply, 3. Robusteness of concept 4. Use case / need to transfer and store percepted value in unit of account
03:35
These were the only pilars back then
03:36
In reply to this message
Take one pilar out - concept loses attraction in eyes of profesionals
K
03:40
K
Anyone know any companies or people who build spam bots that they can recommend?
GE
03:44
Gatis Eglitis
Zack can anything be done to hard code the limit the total emission? Declare that emission has a hard roof?
ŽM
03:53
Živojin Mirić
I have to say LVL2 amoveo channel is what was missing for a long time.
03:53
We will take it to another level with focus and dedication!
K
03:58
K
Might be impossible to spam 4chan due to captchas but we can hire some indians
ŽM
04:05
Živojin Mirić
4chan posting has to be made by 4chan dwellers
K
04:11
K
In reply to this message
Should I make a discord and invite people from 4chan to join?
Š
04:11
Šea
Lvl 2 discord
04:11
?
K
04:14
K
https://discord.gg/AZCN5Y join if you want to be part of the spam
04:15
will only help amoveo price
F
04:21
Fića
In reply to this message
Is this legit level 2 sir?
K
04:24
K
In reply to this message
what is level 2?
Z
06:49
Zack
In reply to this message
No, level 2 is a telegram group.
06:50
In reply to this message
Oh yeah, I forgot about this.
06:53
In reply to this message
Amoveo level 2 is a place for people like us to be ourselves. We can talk about our shared dream to end hierarchies, and just feel like we belong.
It is an exclusive group, but we are accepting applications.
A
06:53
Aries
Where is my invite 🥺
06:54
Deleted Account
So is the idea about making foreign currencies eligible for placing bets totally out of question then? Like BTC, ETH, USDT, etc..
Z
06:56
Zack
In reply to this message
Maybe they could do an atomic swap from BTC to a synthetic asset inside amoveo that stays the same value as BTC, use that for gambling, and then they are done, they atomic swap back to normal btc.
06:56
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
That would be a game changer
Z
06:56
Zack
In reply to this message
Everyone has to apply, even I barely got in.
06:57
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Is this possible?
Z
06:58
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes, but not yet. We didn't set up atomic swaps yet.
Probably we will get sortition chains set up first, so you can atomic swap directly into a sortition chain.
K
06:58
K
In reply to this message
Thanks👍
06:58
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Do you see the massive opportunity in this?
Z
06:59
Zack
In reply to this message
Yeah, it is an important feature. We want bitcoiners to have a good user experience when they use amoveo to trade derivatives.
07:00
Deleted Account
Will this also be possible with ERC20 tokens? This is my Tether fetish talking, but I feel it's equally important
Z
07:01
Zack
I think atomic swapping is starting to be standardized now. So once we set it up for btc, it should work for erc20 tokens as well.
07:02
Deleted Account
We had a hopeless discussion about this a few days back. You never mentioned this 😁
07:04
In reply to this message
When do you think that the atomic swap feature will be implemented?
Z
07:11
Zack
In reply to this message
I'm not sure. It isn't a very big feature, but I don't plan very far ahead.
These next couple months I will probably just focus on getting sortition chains live.
I
07:57
Instinct
In reply to this message
Lol
Z
12:11
Zack
In reply to this message
I updated the sortition branch so now it supports this
feature, and it has passing tests. You can make that one final spend, and the validators cant censor you.
This way you don't have to hold lottery risk.
12:13
I had to add another tx type for this.
Jason Taylor invited Jason Taylor
Z
19:42
Zack
Most of the on-chain sortition stuff is done.
But there is still lots of work to do as far as api to negotiate using the sortition chain, and a protocol for the sortition validators to negotiate making the next sortition block, and a database so the validators can keep track of the current status of the sortition chain.
GJ
23:42
Guillermo Joya
Hello I am back in NYC. Please let me know of any cool bitcoin conferences. Thank You

I would like to attend a nice conference where members talk about Amoveo.
20 February 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
21 February 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
07:33
Deleted Account
does anyone have any comparison of $veo vs the other small cap coins on qtrade? any merits to other coins?
Z
09:52
Zack
In reply to this message
This channel is for talking about amoveo.
Discord has an off-topic channel where you can talk about merits of other coins
10:00
Deleted Account
what use case does amoveo have that eth does not have?
10:01
as a 2017 speculator, investing in tech that nobody understands works, but now in 2020 we need real use cases if no marketing
Z
10:10
Zack
In reply to this message
A cheap secure oracle.
Off-chain betting on any topic, the topic stays private, and it is free to create new topics.
10:10
Once sortition chains launches, we will have scalability
10:14
Deleted Account
doesn’t work though
10:14
don’t see any evidence of it
10:14
same with synthetic btc, show me the proof
10:15
who’s using it, how much volume on these
Z
10:16
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//light_node/p2p_derivatives.md
Here is documentation, you can use it to make synthetic btc right now.

I could use entire dev reward to buy stablecoin from myself. Would that be enough volume?
10:18
Deleted Account
no thats one person obviously not
10:19
make a market for it on qtrade or somewhere and have people buy it actually
10:19
if you could actually make synthetic btc that would be already very hot now
jozuka invited jozuka
DK
13:35
Deve Kliman
Has veo come to support ledger nano? Is there any particular coin or blockchain already on nano, otherwise, that would have the same. Pneumonic derivation path with which I can generate key pairs and receive/send tokens?
Z
13:36
Zack
Amoveo pubkeys are the same as bitcoin pubkeys.
They are just encoded different by default.
13:36
I think you could encode it in bitcoin format, and use a normal bitcoin hardware wallet
DK
13:38
Deve Kliman
Hm is it encoded with a particular derivation path?
Z
13:39
Zack
Start with the 65 byte binary pubkey. That is the longer format.
The encode it in base64. That is the amoveo pubkey.
13:39
I made some code for compressing it to 33 byte format. But I didn't activate it yet.
DK
14:01
Deve Kliman
Hm I’m not sure I have the tools for that... what I do have is the ledger live app, a btc app on the device and an optional text field to generate an account with a derivation path such as "49'/0'/2'/0/0"
DK
17:31
Deve Kliman
In reply to this message
I’m not so sure I trust “unofficial” integrations, unless it’s a trusted app and simply a derivation path
17:33
In reply to this message
Is that your github?
Javion invited Javion
Z
20:25
Zack
In reply to this message
I didn't program the ledger integration, neither have I reviewed it.
I guess I should review it some time.
S
20:28
Siasuomo
Zack, what security problem did you find in avalanche consensus?
21:55
Deleted Account
anyone want to sell some VEOs?
Z
22:12
Zack
There is a trading channel on discord.
S
22:27
Siasuomo
In reply to this message
Thank you.
22 February 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
ŽM
07:20
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
#bribery
11:59
“During this incident there were several traders that exploited the mispricing to generate ~$36,000 USD of profit.”
11:59
good thing there wasn’t more liquidity
Z
20:05
Zack
There is a trading channel on discord. This page is not for trading.
K
21:19
K
If you're still into researching coins, you should check out Nervos. It's another POW chain using second layer solutions for dapps.
Z
21:37
Zack
In reply to this message
im taking a look. looks like a blockchain in rust.
It isn't clear to me what they are trying to do they mention plasma and state channels, but don't really go into specifics.

What is the logic behind when to use merkle mountain ranges instead of sparse merkle trees?
I am finding documentation on how merkle mountain ranges are built, but not reasoning on when they are worth using.

I guess serial insertion is faster with merkle mountain ranges?
But blocks come in batches of txs, and sparse merkle trees can insert batches very fast.

It seems like merkle mountain ranges have the drawback that you can't make a merkle proof of the non-existence of data.
I think all the merkle proofs we use currently in Amoveo, the ability to prove the non-existence of data is necessary.
It isn't clear when a merkle mountain range would be useful.
21:41
Maybe it is used to merklize the txs in a block. That way adding more txs to the tx pool can be cheaper.
21:46
In reply to this message
https://github.com/nervosnetwork/muta-docs/blob/master/docs/en/overlord.md
There documentation says it is based on tendermint, and it is BFT consensus.
This looks like a PoS blockchain.

It looks like they are putting a lot of work into the optimistic rollup plan. But it is weird because OR is designed to have high throughput, and they are trying to use this strategy to achieve fast finality.
21:50
>It is required to achieve the performance of inserting 10,000+ tps in an ordinary computer.
https://github.com/nervosnetwork/muta-docs/blob/master/docs/en/transaction_pool.md
So I guess I was right about why they are using merkle mountain ranges. They want the mining pool to absorb txs super fast, so that they can be included in blocks fast, for fast finality.
22:00
Here is a interesting idea.
In Ethereum and Amoveo, every tx has a nonce from the account that signed it, that way the tx can't be re-done, and each account's nonce keeps incrementing as they publish more txs.
in nervos instead you use a random value for your nonce, and the full node verifies that no tx with that same random nonce from that account has ever occurred before.

This prevents a small problem. In Ethereum and Amoveo, if you make 2 txs very quickly, it is possible that only the 2nd gets included and not the 1st.
Then since the 2nd one had increased your nonce, now the 1st is invalid and will never get included.
This makes it annoying to publish a batch of txs all at once.

But updating your nonce to cancel 0th confirmation txs can also be useful. In Amoveo we use that trick to cancel state channel contract offers.
22:04
im not seeing any work on 2nd layer tools.
Overall, this looks like a tendermint rewrite into Rust, with a few small customizations.
22:11
https://github.com/nervosnetwork/docs/blob/master/docs/basic-concepts/state-tokens.md looks like they have on-chain smart contracts like Ethereum.
So I guess this is an Ethereum clone with some OR tricks baked in for faster finality and throughput.
K
22:21
K
In reply to this message
Thanks for checking it out!
G
22:23
Goldy
Which exchange this coin is listed
Z
22:23
Zack
qtrade. basic info like this is on our github readme https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
Z
22:30
Zack
Looks like it was just user error. Not a bribery attack yet.
K
22:34
K
In reply to this message
👍
Z
22:35
Zack
Or maybe the person claiming that they accidentally made a mistake, maybe they are the attacker, and they totally got away with it.
22:35
I guess there is no way to know.
23 February 2020
01:19
🤔
Z
01:21
Zack
Vlad's background is in statistics.
I guess he still hasn't realized about futarchy.

or maybe he just likes causing controversy to get attention.
mx
01:22
mr x
yea hes an absurdist and a troll
02:11
Deleted Account
he has no background
02:11
he’s a nobody
02:11
same with most people in crypto
Z
02:13
Zack
Vlad is the one who suggested to me about syncing blocks in reverse.
He is actually a really smart guy who knows a lot about blockchain.
02:13
Deleted Account
no solid academic background though
02:13
he’s no algorand founder
02:14
just got lucky since he was the only one that wanted to work on ethereum, but blockchain 2.0 will replace all these people
Z
02:14
Zack
He is very well educated in statistics.
I would rather take advice from vlad than whoever made algorand.
02:14
Deleted Account
the guy that made algorand won the turing award and invented zero knowledge proofs, amongst many other things.
02:15
nobody that was “famous” or “accomplished” things in blockchain will be around in 5 years
02:15
maybe vitalik since he’s a genius
02:15
new generation of professionals such as silvio micali will be the new breed
02:16
that’s why the smart contract 2.0 platforms will all go to 0, and these “new tech”
02:17
long term can only bet on the best and brightest
02:17
what’s devbasement
Z
02:17
Zack
In reply to this message
I don't think that is a useful background for blockchain. Blockchain isn't a computer science problem.

Statistics on the other hand is very useful.

I think game theorists and biologists are even more capable at blockchain than statisticians.
02:18
Deleted Account
lol truly absurd
02:18
just search that person up
02:18
look at his wiki
02:18
blockchain devs are truly delusional
02:18
don’t recognize the importance of actual professionalism
02:19
he actually understands crypto
02:19
very few in blockchain actually have a crypto background, completely unqualified to make crypto
Z
02:19
Zack
Just because he is good at CS doesn't mean he will have useful ideas for blockchain. Having looked at algorand, I think his background is hindering him. Every problem is a cs problem for him, and he refuses to see the game theory.
02:20
Deleted Account
he has literally created several breakthroughs in CS, it means he can look at problems differently
Z
02:20
Zack
Cryptography is not a useful background for blockchain either.
02:20
Deleted Account
jesus
02:21
truly the extent of dunings kruger in crypto is astonishing
Z
02:21
Zack
Like, bricks are made of clay. And clay comes out of the ground. And geologists know about the ground.

But that doesn't mean you want a geologist to lay bricks to build a house.
02:21
Deleted Account
it’s ok to say one has useful ideas such as vlad, but one must admit they are entirely unqualified and speculative compared to real big men like silvio
02:21
they are ants compared to giants
02:22
one should know one’s place in the world to be successful
02:22
vlad should literally bow down to silvio next time they meet
02:22
same with the dumb lightning network creator who got lucky
02:22
fucking up my btcs with dumb ideas such as lightning
Z
02:23
Zack
In reply to this message
You mean satoshi?
I'm pretty sure satoshi invented the idea of channels.
02:23
Deleted Account
algorand is absolutely genius, the first pure proof ofs take too
02:23
oh actually did he? do you have a link? i think he outlined some idea
02:23
but also lightning is bs, maybe somebody could have made something better
Z
02:24
Zack
In reply to this message
I think satoshi didn't know about hash locking. Only channels.
02:24
Deleted Account
yeah i read a comment about some channel
02:25
lol this is absurd
02:25
So, for a total cost of $666 in bribes, I can destroy a $1 quadrillion blockchain.
02:25
then do it, prove it and make the money
02:26
jesus there’s a difference between vitalik smart and delusional
02:26
vitalik would at least recognize the genius of this man silvio
02:26
he would have incentive to play it down, but at least he knows it
02:26
this is a different scenario
02:27
much better to have a technical master (like zack) but humble
02:27
that’s exactly opposite...
02:27
you think it’s devbasement, but it’s a true breakthrough
02:29
do you know cs?
02:29
what is your background
02:29
?
02:29
hahahah
02:29
i meant computer science, but i guess either is ok
02:29
fuck im so bearish on crypto now
02:30
everyone’s going to be wiped out
02:30
fewer dumb people to sell tech too
02:36
amoveo still undervalued in terms of pump potential though, lots of dumb people might buy it
02:37
chainlink people looking for a second run
McFly49 invited McFly49
Tailo invited Tailo
Z
20:14
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/blog_posts/alternatives_to_futarchy.md
I made this blog post to compare futarchy against other protocols used for communities to make decisions.
20:14
this is the first draft. Do you guys see any way to make improvements?
K
20:43
K
Under battle of champions, decision should be plural
Z
20:47
Zack
In reply to this message
yes, thanks.
GJ
21:08
Guillermo Joya
Hello Zack

Make the intro a bit longer to that update.
21:10
Suggestion:

Alternatives to Futarchy

I will be introducing a new paradigm to achieve consensus in blockchain.

Futarchy is a method where individuals make a decision together.

The goal of this document is to compare futarchy with other methods that people use for making decisions and I will explain in detail what Futarchy entails.

Other methods that individuals have used in the past are

1.
2.
3.
21:13
Suggestion: Add more examples of advantages of Futarchy.
Z
22:00
Zack
Futarchy is useful for blockchain, but also other things.
I think governments, clubs, families, churches, and companies should all use futarchy to make decisions. Any time a group of people need to make a decision together.
22:00
In reply to this message
Good idea
Jerkass invited Jerkass
🅼🅸🅺🅴 invited 🅼🅸🅺🅴
24 February 2020
CD
05:56
Crypt Dweller
"I think game theorists and biologists are even more capable at blockchain than statisticians." This is an insight. I agree, Zack.
Z
06:01
Zack
Haha
Game theory is a kind of math which is related to economics.
06:02
Like John Nash
A
06:03
Alex
POS iz 4 noobs.

-Zach Hess
06:03
(Slight paraphrasing, but basically captures the essence of some of his github papers)
Z
06:03
Zack
And I am more thinking of like, evolutionary biology, or animal behaviour than medical biology.

The parts of biology that are related to game theory.
Z
10:14
Zack
From early 2015 till early 2017, I was mostly working on PoS. I had thought that it would be needed for a futarchy blockchain.

I built like 10 different PoS blockchains, and kept finding reasons they were insecure.
I talked to a lot of other people who work on this. I was working in the same coworking space as Jae Kwon when he was building Tendermint.
I read through the BFT paper tendermint is based on, and Jae explained it to me, before tendermint existed.

I can relate to these people who get caught up in it. It took me a long time to realize. Especially if you are being paid to not realize.

People spent a long time trying to turn lead into gold. Even Isaac Newton was into alchemy.
I wonder if they raised money from some kind of VC to do alchemy research.
10:15
At least it was good practice for making Amoveo.
N
11:27
NM$L
👍🏻
11:28
1veo＝1000usd
TG
11:58
Toby Ganger
In reply to this message
So the tech Zack built on Augur is better than the tech he built on Amoveo before he could refine it?
N
12:49
NM$L
Have you known veo listed on a new exchange
B
14:11
Ben
In reply to this message
No, Veo Lacks a usable Gui for its major usecases, maybe someday down the road.
Z
19:31
Zack
In reply to this message
Paul Sztorc wrote R code for his idea of how the oracle should work.
I rewrote that into python for Augur, and bundled it up with other basic blockchain stuff, like an accounts system and payments.

I didn't invent Augur's oracle. It is mostly from Paul Sztorc.
I didn't write any code for Augur's oracle on Ethereum.

Amoveo's current design is superior to Augur's design, and the bitcoin hivemind design.
25 February 2020
02:51
Deleted Account
paul sztorc is a clown
02:51
he tried to beat augur but didn’t even launch after 5 years
02:51
complete joke
ŽM
06:19
Živojin Mirić
How can we leverage technical advantage of Amoveo implementation of Futarchy regarding the trend of global panic because of China virus??? I see great potential and opportunity to spread awareness of Amoveo superiority and when the epidemic dies we will have New soldiers in our ranks ok?
06:19
Plis
06:19
Think about this
Z
06:20
Zack
In reply to this message
taking advantage of current events is a good idea
ŽM
06:20
Živojin Mirić
Great
06:21
If we take advantage even though it seems contradictory we actually want as many people as possible to die and it results in faster spread and acceptance of superior ideas for the whole human race
06:21
We have to break some eggs you know
Z
06:21
Zack
I think CDC/FDA regulation in USA is hindering people's ability to test everyone for the coronavirus who wants to be tested.
Maybe we can use futarchy to show that loosening regulations will result in a lower death rate.
ŽM
06:21
Živojin Mirić
Higher cause
06:21
In reply to this message
I am sure we can
Z
06:22
Zack
In reply to this message
hahaha
Well, futarchy can't tell us what our goal should be. All it can tell us which strategy is more effective to achieve our goal.
ŽM
06:23
Živojin Mirić
Yes I do not know exactly (only Futarchy could ever know stuff like this) but I am just predicting and wondering
06:23
We should give Futarchy a global chance
06:24
People don't even know they want it
06:24
But they will see!
06:24
Over bodies of their dead sick relatives and old people Futarchy will thrive! And it will be for the ultimate good of the whole human kind.
06:24
WE ARE NOT AWARE OF THE POWER IT HOLDS
06:26
Even if humans die off to numbers of like 200k globally, it would be long term beneficial if they all accepted futarchy for decision making, like and subscribe if you agree
Z
06:26
Zack
I programmed a inheritance dead man switch for BTC before
06:26
since it works for bitcoin, I don't see why someone would make a new blockchain for this.
ŽM
06:27
Živojin Mirić
Zack but how can you do that,?
06:27
Who are you to decide about inheritance?
Z
06:27
Zack
In reply to this message
I strongly doubt this.
If we went down to 200k, we would probably not be able to make computers any more. Too much knowledge lost.
ŽM
06:28
Živojin Mirić
I don't agree, if we have 200k prophets we would containt knowledge in the holy scripts
06:28
200k is the critical threshold
Z
06:28
Zack
In reply to this message
I don't decide. it is a dead man's switch.
So if I wanted to set up an inheritance, then once every month I would keep resetting the dead man switch.
If ever there is a 2 month period where I don't reset it, then the money goes to whoever I wanted it to go to after I die.
ŽM
06:28
Živojin Mirić
Well, you wanted
06:29
Who are you to want anything?
06:29
Did you think about that?
F
06:29
Fića
In reply to this message
Cant someone abuse it?
Z
06:29
Zack
I think a person should have control over what happens to their money after they die. So, I think it is acceptable to desire a certain use for your money after you die.
ŽM
06:29
Živojin Mirić
I would let the people vote with their money on it
Z
06:30
Zack
In reply to this message
yeah.
If you lock your parents in a cage for a month and keep them away from their computer, then you get the bitcoin inheritance early.
ŽM
06:30
Živojin Mirić
That's a flaw
06:30
And the system is obviously broken
06:30
This is worse than bribery
06:30
What AM I READING HERE??
Z
06:31
Zack
I guess, don't leave your inheritance to the kind of person who wants to kill/imprison you.
06:31
or let it all burn when you die. like a viking funeral.
06:32
like an Egyptian Pharo buried with his gold.
F
06:32
Fića
In reply to this message
This is good
06:32
Your benefiting to a higher cause
06:33
Scarcity gets even bigger
Z
06:33
Zack
different cultures use different inheritance strategies.
The best strategy seems like it is dependent on other aspects of the culture you find yourself in.
F
06:34
Fića
Someone should notify caleum their project is pretty much useless. Problem they are solving is actually solved
Z
06:34
Zack
yeah, with a repository I wrote in 4 hours for a hackathon. haha
F
06:35
Fića
Lol...
ŽM
06:36
Živojin Mirić
Culture is irrelevant
06:36
Please don't
K
06:49
K
In reply to this message
No, the death rate is really low
06:50
if you're healthy and not old or really young you should be alright
Z
06:51
Zack
almost* no one under the age of 10 has died.
very young people tend to have no symptoms.

It is a problem for people older than 45
K
06:53
K
In reply to this message
A newborn is the youngest person to die from it
06:53
true though.
C
15:30
Callum Wright
In reply to this message
there's difference between a great theorist, a great product engineer and a great market engineer for the product
15:31
if Paul failed doesn't mean that his ideas aren't useful
Z
21:29
Zack
In reply to this message
it is like a relay race.
The people of the Soviet revolution were willing to imagine a world without hierarchy, and were willing to risk everything to get it. When their plan failed, the baton went to Mises.
Ludwig von Mises realized why central planning cannot work, he realized about the economic calculation problem and the invisible hand of the market.
Robin Hanson had the idea to explore the power of this invisible hand, to find out what else it can do for us. He formalized the idea of futarchy.
then passed the baton to Paul Sztorc, who figured out that the only way to protect futarchy from being manipulated would be by integrating it into a blockchain.

Here we find ourselves, in the final sprint of a 140 year old race. It is on us to get across that finish line.

Everyone who came before us, our success can give meaning to their struggle. We can finally end the hierarchies that dominate humanity today, freeing the people to explore their individual potentials.
21:32
a communist couldn't admit that Ludwig von Mises was right about the economic calculation problem.
21:35
I am a futarchist at heart.
A
22:29
Alex
In reply to this message
Can you elaborate?
A
22:33
Alex
Damn weve got admins now?
22:33
Sick
22:34
Getting bullish......
22:34
As soon as gifs are enabled I'll be in full-bull mode
Z
22:38
Zack
OK has been a major supporter since shortly after the Genesis block.
He has been operating one of the mining pools since then.
OK
22:41
O K
Yes, I've just been hibernating. I'm here if I'm needed.
A
22:53
Alex
Wow, much respect
22:54
I consider us all extremely early, but that is another level
26 February 2020
M⛏
00:37
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
Confirmed O.G.
OK
01:57
O K
😁
I
02:29
Instinct
In reply to this message
😉
t
06:12
trappist
In reply to this message
that's what I'm talkimbout
MF
08:49
Mr Flintstone
as it gets closer it might be cool to use amoveo for a progpow prediction market
Z
08:50
Zack
I haven't really been paying attention to progpow.
It has something to do with ASIC resistance, right?
08:50
does it have some kind of date when it will occur?
MF
08:58
Mr Flintstone
some time in the middle of the year I think
steelZ invited steelZ
S
18:58
Sebsebzen
In reply to this message
Would be a cool topic for a grad paper in pol science
Z
19:25
Zack
I heard graviex might be shutting down amoveo trading soon. If you have money there, take it out.
GJ
19:49
Guillermo Joya
Good Morning Everybody.
Z
22:32
Zack
Thinking about the case where your money is frozen in a sortition chain because one of the validators is censoring you.
You get one final chance to send your money before the sortition chain ends.
Previously I was thinking we would use the probabilistic spending protocol to allow for this spend.

But I upgraded this tx to include a turing complete contract, that way we can use hashlocking to connect it to other events.

Part of the probabilistic payment protocol is that a portion of the money is kept as a safety deposit that can get burned if you attempt a double-spend.
I am thinking that we do not need this safety deposit, because we can use the smart contract to punish double-spending.
27 February 2020
Z
22:56
Zack
In reply to this message
If there is no one interested in buying insurance against the possibility of an event happening, then that means there is no one who cares about the outcome of the event, and so no one will benefit from a prediction market to predict it.
28 February 2020
t
01:19
trappist
I think the point of the article has to do when not enough people care about it. Airlines care if everybody stops flying for a few months because of coronavirus or something, but a prediction market for that would probably be far too illiquid for them to take meaningful advantage of it.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
01:38
Zack
In reply to this message
If just that airline puts a single unmatched trade into an order book, that puts a bound on the probability of a pandemic that impacts their business. It would be solid evidence to settle fears that their investors could be feeling, if they knew an upper bound on the probability that the coronavirus will be a problem for their business.
01:39
it is kind of like how businesses will pay to have research done, as long as that research encourage people to buy more of their product.
futarchy is like a better kind of science, because you don't have to understand statistics or read complicated papers to understand.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
t
02:56
trappist
Well I'll be. That seems correct.
DY
07:27
Demi Yilmaz
Veoscan down?
Z
07:32
Zack
looks like it. you can get all the info you need from other places. the light node has a lot.
S
13:35
Sebsebzen
In reply to this message
Temporary? Or for good?
DY
16:13
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
until fixed, it shows cloudflare error
Z
17:33
Zack
catweed manages veoscan I think. veoscan seems to be down.
George Pro invited George Pro
kk invited kk
29 February 2020
Ruslan invited Ruslan
Deleted invited Deleted Account
1 March 2020
21:28
Deleted Account
@zack have you done research about enterprise blockchains like hyperledger etc? they dont' have coins. and In china, the biggest company, tencent, alibaba, etc are all developing their blockchain, . it seems that these type of blockchains usually use proof of stake? and don't have coins.
21:29
this project is developed by a company in china, it has the the most famous download app
21:29
p2p downloading app
21:30
billions of users(the downloading app); their blockchain project doesn't seem to have a coin
21:32
china's policy is pro blockchain, and against cryptocurrency trading.
MC
23:38
M Chuck
Is explorer done?
23:38
Down?
DY
23:58
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
yea veoscan is down catweed is the dev of that site
2 March 2020
Z
05:11
Zack
In reply to this message
You can get all the same info from other places
S
13:31
Sebsebzen
catweed do you need resources?
13:31
Maybe a DAC?
b
18:20
bjorn
Hi, where can we store veo? Graviex is delisting
Z
18:24
Zack
In reply to this message
The light node is the recommended way to store Veo
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo
S
19:05
Sy
Chances are kinda low you can get them out anyway, I doubt they followed the fork(s)
Z
19:06
Zack
In reply to this message
I wrote about why I think proof of stake cannot work here https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//other_blockchains/proof_of_stake.md
N
19:52
NM$L
when moon
3 March 2020
t
00:18
trappist
just got an email about graviex delisting
Deleted invited Deleted Account
b
03:39
bjorn
Is veo erc-20?
t
03:39
trappist
no
t
03:59
trappist
erc20 tokens live on the ethereum network, veo is its own blockchain
JS
10:05
Jon Snow
2 year anniversary of Amoveo!
EW
11:25
Eli W
🎂
N
12:23
NM$L
happy birthday
12:25
I rent vps to mine veo at veo bitrhday.
12:25
made much profit
Z
15:01
Zack
yeah, it is pretty exciting. it looks like a bribery attack
m
15:03
mm
"Trusted third parties are security holes"
Z
15:03
Zack
yes, they are
m
15:06
mm
"Delegated Proof of Stake was developed by Daniel Larimer - American software developer, cryptocurrency entrepreneur and a founder of BitShares, Steemit and EOS. "
15:06
next ones
4 March 2020
Z
15:58
Zack
I rewrote a bunch of the sortition chain documentation.
Paco invited Paco
T
23:59
Tromp
Hey Zack, do you have the doc on why chainlink is unsafe
5 March 2020
Z
00:00
Zack
I think it has been almost a year since I wrote this, they might have changed strategy since then
T
00:04
Tromp
Okk thanks 👌🏻
00:05
Im resding up on reserve protocol and I believe they want to use Chainlink’s oracle. Which could be unsafe
00:05
So maybe Amoveo’s oracle could be better fit
01:44
Lots of people talking about ftx that now has prediction markets, centralized
01:44
Nobody using decentralized prediction markets :(
01:54
And a video explaining how to use it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ork3-puihX8
Z
02:09
Zack
In reply to this message
does this relate to Amoveo somehow?
T
02:09
Topab
Yes
02:10
Talks about a prediction engine
02:10
Metaculus, never heard about it
02:10
Look at the screen shot
Z
02:13
Zack
oh, you have to scroll all the way to the bottom. last 2 paragraphs.
T
02:30
Topab
Yes
Deleted invited Deleted Account
11:29
Deleted Account
I believe I have figured out how to make amoveo not a failure
11:29
we should all encourage zack to be a more social creature
11:30
I knew vitalik before he started ethereum, and the reason why I invested in the ico and also saw potential is because I saw the combination of knowledge and being social. although on first glance he may not seem social, on a second analysis vitalik is actually a very social creature. genius means combining technical mastery, actual empirical knowledge, and being social
11:30
right now zack only has one (technical mastery), and completely lacks the other two
11:31
by being more social zack can also be not an idiot with empirical knowledge, and thus became a dan lanimer
JS
11:35
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
figuring out this is the easy part
11:37
Deleted Account
why is it the easy part
11:37
it is the hard part
11:37
vitalik has all 3 traits
11:37
dan lanimer has just two (empirical knowledge and technical mastery)
JS
11:38
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Convincing Zack to be social is the hard part
11:39
Deleted Account
so I think it is possible that if zack gets one of the other two, it can be a success. it is easier for zack to be social first than gain empirical knowledge, since he is an idiot in terms of empirical knowledge (a term coined by nicholas taleb "intellectual yet idiot"). so it is only possible for zack to be social, only after a few years can he gain empirical knowledge
11:39
the difference between this valuation in the millions vs a valuation in the billions is simply a radical change in zack's social behavior and actually meeting people in real life as well as in the crypto world
11:40
by the way when was the last time @491631878 () had a girlfriend?
11:40
Zack
11:41
it's an important proxy for behavior because actually when I met vitalik he wanted a girlfriend surprisingly. on the surface to the non-technical person, all technical people are similar but actually they in fact differ radically in terms of values and potential
11:43
it may sound like a joke, but in fact it is a very serious proposition. I believe the amoveo fund should be used for zack to get a very hot girlfriend, so it can change his values
11:44
as a contrarian investor, sometimes the best ideas sound like jokes (such as ethereum and bitcoin in the early days). we should campaign accordingly to get zack a hot girlfriend
JS
11:49
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
I’m all in favor for using dev reward to get Zack a hot girlfriend or even a few hot girlfriends
GJ
11:50
Guillermo Joya
Yeah hot girlfriends are cool
11:53
Deleted Account
at this point the project is such a failure that we really need to think outside of the box
11:53
exactly, i think only 10% of the dev fund needs to be spent in order to get zack a hot girlfriend, which may radically change zack's value system and thus the course of the project