Amoveo ♥🧿
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5 March 2020
11:54
Deleted Account
is it possible to do a bitcoin cash style fork to create a 1% amoveo fund to give zack a hot girlfriend?
11:54
we can import one from a country of zack's choice. what kind of girls does zack like?
11:54
or boys that zack likes?
A
14:33
For PR- and marketing related purposes, she may be a strong value-adder for graphic promotional content
B
14:37
Ben
treating women like an Asset is not a good start at all guys ;)
14:45
Deleted Account
at least it's an actual asset :) unlike most crypto assets which can be expected to gain value year over year, right now we have to account for amoveo as a value of 0
B
14:49
Ben
i see your point, i'm more concerned that amoveo is not able to show it's potential since the Solution is actually not usable for an average Joe.
14:50
Exantech did first steps, but we are far away from having an actual usable Solution.
K
16:19
Or raise it slightly
EW
17:40
Eli W
So did Bitcoin give % block reward to some marketing guys ?
s
17:40
snaketh4x0r
Nope
B
ŽM
19:36
Živojin Mirić
no comradery on my watch!
19:37
Deleted Account
Guys, why is Zack the only Dev? Or are there others too?
19:38
The real risk is the single point of failure
ŽM
19:38
Živojin Mirić
anyone can freely join development
19:38
but no one does
19:38
will you?
19:39
I am no developer, I am a life coach professional and Futarchy Evangelist
19:39
Deleted Account
I can't Dev unfortunately
Z
20:17
Zack
I do 30 pull ups and run 2 kilometers every day.
Endurance gives me mental toughness to focus on amoveo for long periods, and back strength helps me to maintain good posture while I program.
Endurance gives me mental toughness to focus on amoveo for long periods, and back strength helps me to maintain good posture while I program.
K
20:31
Did Eos cardano etc give a block reward
20:31
The only ones up there that didn’t are pretty old coins
Z
21:03
Zack
In reply to this message
I ran with vitalik before. He is actually really fast.
I don't know anything about wrestling.
I don't know anything about wrestling.
ŽM
21:07
you have to be healthy Zack
21:07
the world depends on it
21:09
Futarchiam sana in corpore sano
6 March 2020
DY
00:02
Demi Yilmaz
Is it possible to send a corona to an adress using avomeo?
Z
00:13
Zack
you could put data that encodes the DNA of the coronavirus into a state channel, and make bets about that data. It is only about 7 kilobytes.
Z
03:25
Zack
Due to a pandemic, all amoveo work should be done remotely until further notice. No exceptions.
MF
03:33
Mr Flintstone
thanks
JS
08:35
Jon Snow
Define further
DY
09:58
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
I mean something like like I open a channel and bet 2VEO that someone in a particular address will not be infected in 2 weeks. And someone who knows they can get that person infected will bet on the opposite side with and win the veo?
This is what I had in mind.
So it can practically be a service for getting people infected.
This is what I had in mind.
So it can practically be a service for getting people infected.
09:58
Or maybe some easier version?
10:00
This is a usecase and it makes sense for this to be decentralized and with VEO. Maybe you can write a blog post about it how it would work with the corona virus being so popular the blog can spread through the internet, then people who actually want to infect others may come and use VEO for that purpose.
This means that we get our first real usage.
Is it too farfetched or do you see some potential?
This means that we get our first real usage.
Is it too farfetched or do you see some potential?
Z
10:26
Zack
An amoveo oracle can only know things that are common knowledge. It can't know if one particular person caught it.
But it can know what statistics are reported by the who or cdc or whatever
But it can know what statistics are reported by the who or cdc or whatever
GJ
10:35
Guillermo Joya
Get the dude a hot GF. He deserves it !
S
Z
12:06
Zack
Come on guys, this is a forum to talk about Amoveo
S
12:07
Sebsebzen
In reply to this message
Vitalik should take note. And yes healthy body, healthy mind
12:08
Haha ok ok
m
22:50
mm
In reply to this message
This is actually valid discussion. You're the only dev of Amoveo and according to some metrics interest in Amoveo is falling.
22:51
So there's clearly maximized bus factor.
And impact of failure is also huge, because Amoveo looks like one the most interesting projects in the sphere.
And impact of failure is also huge, because Amoveo looks like one the most interesting projects in the sphere.
22:52
Zack what do you think are the biggest factors preventing bigger interest in Amoveo? Do you think it would be good?
22:53
I'm telling about builders community, not price speculants.
DY
Z
23:29
Zack
I think we could get the p2p derivatives tool to succeed, just by testing and iterating on the design.
Sortition chains are mostly written now, I think it makes sense to get it merged with lots of passing tests first, so we have a solid scalability plan, then 2nd we do iteration until we get a core audience, and finally 3rd we do targeted advertising based on what we learned from the first core users.
Sortition chains are mostly written now, I think it makes sense to get it merged with lots of passing tests first, so we have a solid scalability plan, then 2nd we do iteration until we get a core audience, and finally 3rd we do targeted advertising based on what we learned from the first core users.
23:30
Once sortition chains is merged, it also means we would be able to build single price batch markets without needing any further hard updates.
23:31
It really rounds out the amoveo functionality, it makes us from a toy into something powerful.
7 March 2020
05:42
Deleted Account
builder community is just a bs buzzword to try to gain legitimacy in cryptocurrency to increase price
05:42
the only community that matters is speculator or investor community
05:43
the value of the network is correlated with the square of the size of the speculation network
05:43
only when zack becomes social or turns into a social project can this project can be successful
05:44
a girlfriend or boyfriend is the easiest way to force him to be social
05:45
or zack should smoke pot every day to want to socialize more
PL
05:45
Paww Lee
When moon sir?
05:45
Deleted Account
when zack has a radical change in personality, either by smoking pot, getting a girlfriend, or some other method we have not thought of
PL
05:45
Paww Lee
Lol.
05:46
We need some network effects...I guess...
05:46
Deleted Account
or guaranteed non-inflation in future. the problem with this project is that there is probably I would say 5% chance it can have a pump, but it could be 5-10 years from now if zack is still working on it and not homeless
05:47
but the problem as an investor it makes no sense to keep the investment in VEO if it will take that long because of uncertainty on the supply side
05:47
so only worth it if guaranteed non-inflation, or if zack becomes social within this year
05:47
if it doesn't pump this year I'm out as an investor to be honest
PL
05:48
Paww Lee
I see...
05:48
Deleted Account
we can also give zack cocaine and hookers so that he becomes greedy
05:49
the problem is he is not motivated by creating anything useful in practice (only in buzzwords) , or by money either
PL
05:49
Paww Lee
Can VEO be used for something in real life?
05:49
Deleted Account
not at all
05:49
well there is one good use
05:49
if you don't value money, it's a good way to become poor so that you can focus on other things in life
PL
05:49
Paww Lee
That's bad...very bad...
Z
05:50
Deleted Account
the use case is buying veo to become poor, so that you become less greedy and find "meaning" in other things
05:50
but nobody uses it, so it's not really useful
05:50
it's like saying I created an uber app for tribal people to use in the amazon rainforest
05:51
sure the uber app likes nice and shiny but it can't be used in real life in the amazon rainforest
05:51
we need to make zack greedy somehow
PL
05:52
Deleted Account
at the very least zack seems motivated for recognition, and spitefulness to chainlink
05:52
but all he does is complain, instead of taking action to actually defeat them
05:52
the most likely choice is to realize that chainlink is a super success, and for him to view amoveo as a revenge against chainlink. but he is too passive and just complains on twitter and nobody listens
PL
05:53
Paww Lee
Is he working alone on this?
05:53
Deleted Account
instead of actually taking action to defeat chainlink, which can be possible if he actually spent time on marketing and exchange partnerships
05:54
yes that's the problem
05:54
exactly
05:54
zack is a lone wolf, very unsuccessful unless you have enough qualities
05:54
and somehow nobody wanted to work with him, or I don't know why he works alone
05:55
if it was me I would find somebody that would complement my weaknesses (marketing, business, partnerships)
PL
05:55
Paww Lee
Is it possible to make a bet on amoveo that says "if we make X marketig campaign 4 amoveo, Veo will go to the Moon"?
05:55
Deleted Account
no, because nobody actually uses veo
05:56
if the project does not pump within a few months, it means the value is heading to 0
05:56
it's a common occurrence in markets, even medical device companies, in which during every bear market, the higher cap companies go up and lower caps go down
05:56
he thinks he can work on this forever but it's not true, only if it pumps very soon
05:57
lol
05:57
the pattern with medical device companies, and also crypto, and every market shows that amoveo is heading to 0
05:57
no need for that
05:58
zack just needs to not be an idiot in terms of business
05:58
you are only as smart as your weakest link
PL
05:58
Paww Lee
That's a problem....
05:58
Deleted Account
or in other words, the best way to be smart is by not being stupid
05:58
zack is smart at technical, but very stupid at other things
PL
05:58
Paww Lee
This way he's a single point of failure...
05:58
Deleted Account
it's ok to be a single point of failure if you are dan lanimer
PL
05:59
Paww Lee
What if he breaks his fingers?
05:59
Deleted Account
dan lanimer is what zack has the potential to become
05:59
dan lanimer is a bit better than zack in terms of technical, but not much actually
05:59
but much smarter in business
PL
05:59
Paww Lee
...hell...his fingers are a single point of failure...
05:59
Deleted Account
zack needs at least one crypto friend to work with him
06:00
also this chat group size hasn't even grown at all for a year
06:00
it was about 1000 last year, and more active users even actually
06:00
project is screwed
06:01
it would be easier if investors could trust zack to not increase the supply of amoveo, but I don't think he will even care about investors over the next few years
06:02
well I watched it go 90% down
06:02
of course I regret
06:02
I got my veo for free mostly mining actually
06:02
so I don't regert too much, but still lost 90%
06:03
no he isn't selling veo but he will be forced to within 5 years
06:03
when he runs out of money
Z
06:03
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//basics/using_governance.md
I don't have control of the block reward
We use futarchy to make those decisions.
I don't have control of the block reward
We use futarchy to make those decisions.
06:03
Deleted Account
this project is just like a case study of self destruction
06:04
in contrast to other crypto projects, zack launched with the expectation of failure
06:04
in other words, not a Chad, the mindset of a loswer
06:04
*loser
Š
06:04
lol
06:04
Deleted Account
he needs a mindset of a sergey chainlink, a winner
Z
06:05
Zack
I think Amoveo will succeed in less than 5 years.
Anyway, I won't run out of money for a lot longer than that. I don't spend much money.
Anyway, I won't run out of money for a lot longer than that. I don't spend much money.
06:05
Deleted Account
he is an ant in comparison to giants , crypto titans like sergey
06:05
if I were as smart as zack technically, I would turn this project around as soon as possible by figuring out how to address my social weaknesses
06:06
the market says otherwise
06:06
the tendancy of all markets is that low caps head to 0 while high caps keep going higher
Z
06:06
Zack
This is a place to talk about Amoveo. I am moderating off topic comments.
06:07
Deleted Account
i don't know why he doesn't spend anytime actually doing the hard work of business development
06:07
most good devs I know at least have some common sense, but not in this case
Z
06:07
Zack
In reply to this message
There is a channel on discord for talking about the price.
It gets out of hand if we do that here.
It gets out of hand if we do that here.
06:07
Deleted Account
but it's not really
06:07
we want the project to be successful
06:07
but you don't realize the reality of how markets work
06:08
the price is always right, otherwise futarchy doesn't work anyways
06:08
the price is a direct reflection of the value of veo, and the reality of achieving the goals you have
06:09
i think he should seriously team up with spankchain guy
06:09
spankchain actually has about as good tech as veo
06:09
they had a 100 page whitepaper
06:09
and also the guy is in fact very technical
06:09
yeah but it still pumped to 300 million dollars
Z
06:09
Zack
In reply to this message
It is ok to talk about whether a design decision or business plan will positively or negatively impact the price.
But not ok to talk about the price independently.
But not ok to talk about the price independently.
06:10
Deleted Account
why not, futarchy revolves around the free market
Z
06:10
Zack
We have a different channel for that. It is on discord.
06:11
Deleted Account
the price is the only realistic indicator of amoveo's progress
06:11
if we do something that causes the price to go up, them amoveo is doing well
06:11
yeah seriously a good idea
06:11
spankchain was great because of that, it had genuinely breakthrough tech combined with great marketing
06:12
they had state channels even before amoveo
06:12
the tech at one point was better than amoveo even
06:12
yeah that would be great
06:12
well it wouldn't do anything to be honest
06:13
but at least generate hype
06:13
whats a piclle
06:13
also are you an investor in veo @Tandrax2188 ?
06:13
how much veo you got
06:13
just curious
06:14
oh why are you here then
06:14
how did you hear about veo?
06:14
but how did you get here lol
06:14
oh so you sold all yours?
06:14
at what point did you give up?
06:14
oh never bought?
Z
06:14
Zack
This is a channel for talking about amoveo.
06:15
Deleted Account
so you just mined and sold?
Z
06:15
Zack
I will ban you both
06:15
There is an off topic channel on discord
06:15
Deleted Account
we're trying to stay focused on veo
06:16
but where exactly did you hear about it? what websites?
06:16
from who?
06:16
a friend in real life?
06:16
and how did he hear about it?
06:16
did he invest?
06:17
is he a big whale or just small investor
06:17
no it's just market research
06:17
i'm trying to understand what idiots (me included) invested in veo
06:19
well at least i got my veo for free
06:19
i hodled instead of sold lol
06:19
yeah
06:20
I think the project could benefit from zack seeing a psychologist
06:21
since he says some funny things like he hopes veo will compete against the dollar 😂
06:21
borderline psychosis or some deeper underlying condition, if fixed and zack becomes more normal like sergey of chainlink, it can do well
06:21
we just need zack to become more normal
06:22
common sense is the most important part of success
06:22
lol you're assuming that they would even try it out
06:22
the problem is that not only is amoveo not used, nobody even wants to try it because it's bs
06:23
i mean ethereum was obscure before, but at least I wanted to try it out
06:23
amoveo is just buzzword after buzzword
06:24
i mean i would love if veo was at least weird
06:24
but it's not weird, just lame
06:24
it's extremely anti-social
06:25
as charles hoskinson said, the value of the network is directly proportional to the number of investors
06:25
basically it's just zack doing p2p contracts with himself
06:26
lol
06:26
i really don't understand how zack thinks
06:27
does he acknowledge that he is delusional or what
06:27
even delusional people at least doubt themselves sometimes, so I'm really curious
06:28
the centralized prediction market, since I sure won't be risking real money on no devbasement project
06:28
it seems like we can't even encourage zack to change his ways
06:29
normal people usually at least process the feedback and make changes, even if they're incompetent
06:30
and partnering with google
06:34
https://twitter.com/zack_bitcoin/status/1234504966573875208 who is he talking to by the way? himself?
06:35
i get the feeling that his personality is too stiff for this
06:35
the problem is that unlike vitalik or a dan lanimer, he takes himself too seriously
06:36
ironically, serious projects require that you do not take yourself too seriously
06:37
zack what do you do all day even?
Z
06:37
Zack
Some of my favorite contributors to amoveo are Mr flintstone sy ok-potato
06:38
Deleted Account
I just chill out smoke some pot and troll on veo channel every few days
06:38
what did they do
06:38
the mr flintstone and potato
06:38
I guess I'm a contributor too, by mining and securing the network and investing some btcs into the project
Z
06:38
Zack
Mr flintstone knows a lot about derivatives.
He came up with many features in the p2p derivatives tool.
He came up with many features in the p2p derivatives tool.
06:39
Deleted Account
and potato?
Z
06:39
Zack
Sy made the Explorer and mining pool
06:39
Potato runs the other mining pool
06:39
Deleted Account
so mr flintstone is basically a devbasement character, potato does some actual work
06:39
you should value marketing and find a marketing contributor
06:39
go to some conferences or recruit on reddit
Z
06:40
Zack
I think we should get a core group of users that keep coming back. And do targeted advertising based on how they use it.
06:40
Deleted Account
good at least you mention the word targeting advertising
06:40
maybe theres some more hope
06:40
targeting advertising is great, you can do something called retargeting
06:41
facebook ads even work
Z
06:41
Zack
If we try advertising now, we don't know who the audience is. We will waste money selling the wrong thing to the wrong people.
06:41
Deleted Account
once they visit your website, retargeting rates are very high
06:41
incorrect
06:41
thats because you never studied advertising or marketing
06:41
retargeting rates are huge, like 25% or more
06:41
the audience is anybody in crypto
06:41
especially chainlink
06:41
you dont need ads
06:41
just research how seo and content marketing works
06:42
what you need is content marketing, and posting on reddit
06:42
hire some content writers, or write some long articles yourself
06:42
you should write an article every day, and post onto every reddit with crypto you can, there's like 30 different subreddits
06:42
this will boost price tremendously
06:43
explain why amoveo is better than chainlink in the article in depth, it should be written in a way that does not cause chainlink to seem like a fraud, but pulls users gently to amoveo
06:43
because in every crypto community if you complain about the project nobody will come. it must be subtle
06:43
amoveo must support chainlink project, while gently reminding that amoveo is a much better project
PL
06:43
Paww Lee
If it can't be used, advertising is counterproductive...
06:44
Deleted Account
incorrect, usefulness doesn't matter
06:44
advertising and marketing is the only way to increase price
PL
06:44
Paww Lee
Fisrt thing is usability...
06:44
Deleted Account
incorrect
PL
06:45
Paww Lee
...I mean if you care about honesty too...
06:45
Deleted Account
what honesty
06:46
amoveo is already not an honest project, zack may think otherwise but the reality is different from intention
06:46
anyways i hope you guys will support zack in marketing and business, I'll check back when I'm bored again
T
07:03
Tromp
You could send part of the reward to whoever the community choses to do marketing and stuff you would have to vote with the futarchy I believe
07:03
Decrede style
MF
07:53
Mr Flintstone
lol
CD
08:44
Crypt Dweller
So it's the same old conversation, "why aren't we doing marketing?" And Zack doesn't even need to answer with the obvious reason that it's pointless to market something that doesn't really work in its true form yet
08:46
Thinking he requires a girlfriend or greed as an incentive to start growing Amoveo's brand name is to completely misunderstand Zack's motives. He is obviously motivated by a much loftier purpose than you comprehend, I think it may be due to his frankly genius engineering mind that his motives are not entirely intelligble to more ordinary folks like ourselves
08:48
Everybody should understand the extreme risks of investing in this project, which Zack has forthrightly stated many times, and it's just pointless to moan and groan about it here, wasting everyone's attention, when if you really cared about changing something about this project you could use the futarchy mechanism, or more simply sell and never look back
08:50
I do think if Mr. Flintstone, Sy and Potato start defecting it indicates a much more serious issue with Zack's development approach than the fact that VEO is subject to market cycles like any other asset. Do you seriously think price perfectly captures true value at any point in time? That VEO is 10x less valuable today than it was a year ago or whenever it last had a crazy pump, despite Zack's continuous iteration and development?
09:00
Zack is like Robin Hanson or someone like that. He has a genius mind and is sincerely driven to think through really difficult problems and create technological solutions to improve our lives and increase the likelihood of human survival and evolution. It's always you people who obssess over price who can't imagine why that's ultimately not terribly important for his purposes. This thing either succeeds and changes world history, making us filthy rich in the process, or it's one more failed dream among thousands.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
10:44
Deleted Account
lol zack is not a genius
10:46
there is a famous carl icahn quote, let me see if i remember it
10:47
can't find it easily, anyways my point is you guys are easily confused, zack is a clown, not a genius
10:47
if he were normal and had common sense he would have the potential to be a genius
10:47
my wish is that zack just gains some common sense so we can all be rich
10:48
i've known real geniuses personally, such as vitalik, i spent a few full days with him when he was just starting ethereum
10:50
oh sorry not carl icahn, carl sagan lol
10:51
"But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan
10:51
as an investor, one should think of amoveo as a complete joke, which it is, until zack gains some common sense
MF
10:52
Mr Flintstone
the only derivatives platform that doesn’t break if there’s too much money at stake is amoveo. not sure much else is relevant tbh. maybe other platforms will get to this point but I don’t see it so far. ppl will realize this at some point
10:54
Deleted Account
lol
10:55
i guess that's why he likes you so much, since you're one of his few yes-men
10:55
i'm guessing you're not very financially successful
10:57
at some point, maybe 5 years later, you'll realize this whole project was a joke
10:58
but usually these things just die out, there'll be nobody left to prove that i was right, nor will you care
10:58
it will end with "Not with a bang but with a whimper. "
10:59
I'm a top 10 investor in amoveo, and have the most financially to lose than most of you, and even I think this is a complete joke
10:59
the only reason I'm still invested is because there's probably about a 1% chance that zack's personality can change radically
11:01
but less than one percent of my portfolio so I'm ok either way
DY
13:09
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
Lol then you can spend a couple veos in getting zack a gf??
13:10
In reply to this message
Why not prompt it?
Feels like you're bored enough to talk about it for hours 😄
Feels like you're bored enough to talk about it for hours 😄
Z
20:06
Zack
Discord has a channel for trading.
8 March 2020
JS
D
00:56
Deleted Account
Is there any on info on a roadmap?
01:27
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
it’s just that I’m curious how the mentality of dunnings-kruger works, amoveo is a great case study
ŽM
01:37
Živojin Mirić
You are full of shit
01:37
How dare you insult Master Zack
01:37
I am level 2 Futarchy knight
01:38
I will banish you from Amoveo realm if you don't stop
01:38
@cj297 come face me coward
01:56
Deleted Account
lol
01:57
what does level 2 mean
ŽM
01:57
Živojin Mirić
You are late, I must attend in the temple
01:57
Gtfo
01:58
Lame ass hater with no arguments
02:30
Deleted Account
what have I said that is not true?
GJ
03:10
Guillermo Joya
Wow what happened why is this project failing now ?
03:24
Deleted Account
it’s been failing for a year already
03:25
if you bought chainlink a year ago, you would have 10 times the money, if you bought amoveo, you would have lost 90% of your money
JT
03:25
Jehan Tremback
Zack definitely has strengths and weaknesses, but this guy G just seems to be shit talking the project 24/7 in here
03:25
not really bringing a lot of new information
03:26
Deleted Account
facts don’t care about your feelings
JT
03:26
Jehan Tremback
you don't have any facts
03:26
it's just repetitive and boring
JT
03:26
Jehan Tremback
who cares
03:26
Deleted Account
are you a veo investor?
JT
03:27
Jehan Tremback
if i did a 100x leveraged long on gilead pharmeceuticals, i would have a lot more now
03:27
but it's just not relevant
03:27
yea i am
03:27
Deleted Account
so congratulations, you just showed you are a bad investor
JT
03:27
Jehan Tremback
thanks bro
03:27
Deleted Account
so who cares about your opinion
JT
03:28
Jehan Tremback
why are you in here?
03:28
is this what you do?
03:28
Deleted Account
why are you here?
JT
03:28
Jehan Tremback
just wanted to check if anyone knows the guys at a1.exchange. wanted to get a csv export of my transactions
03:29
all i see is a bunch of whining from one dude
03:29
Deleted Account
all I see is a loser here
JT
03:30
Jehan Tremback
G: Veo is bad, wah wah
G: Yea i totally agree with your G. Veo is terrible
G: both of you are right wow love you guys G
G: Yea i totally agree with your G. Veo is terrible
G: both of you are right wow love you guys G
03:30
Deleted Account
?
03:31
doesn’t change the fact that you’re a loser
03:31
financially at least
Z
03:32
Zack
This is a place to talk about Amoveo. Not make up pet names for the other forum users.
03:32
You guys can flirt in direct messages
03:32
Deleted Account
I just want to understand why chainlink is outperforming amoveo by 100 times in the past year
JT
03:33
Jehan Tremback
lol
03:33
Zack are the a1.exchange guys on here?
03:33
Deleted Account
anyways for taxes why do you need that, you can write it off as a loss
Z
03:33
Zack
In reply to this message
One of the channels on discord is for them.
They haven't been doing so well. Qtrade is more reliable.
They haven't been doing so well. Qtrade is more reliable.
03:34
Deleted Account
since last year it has only gone down
JT
03:34
Jehan Tremback
need to establish basis
03:34
ok cool
03:34
Deleted Account
no you don’t
03:34
since it has gone down, your maximum loss is $3000
03:34
oh i see
GJ
04:27
Guillermo Joya
Just leave the chat if ya ain’t supporting the project anymore.
04:27
Crypto is risky. We all know this.
04:27
There no reason to blame others. When you invest in stuff and it does not work just move on.
JS
04:56
Jon Snow
After sortition chain implementation, Zack should have more time on usability and front end developing
04:56
So be patient
04:57
In 3 years, VEO can give you 100x return or more. Or goes to 0.
ŽM
05:12
This is world breaking
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
m
23:17
mm
In reply to this message
Or he could pump the price 10x, sell some of his VEO and hire real UX person, Erlang programmers (or even better hire someone to rewrite it into some popular language) and hire biz people. And focus his attention 100% on grant vision.
23:21
In reply to this message
In 3 years other teams will get the best ideas from Amoveo and present it in the better package to the world.
9 March 2020
Z
01:08
Zack
For the rng process there are 2 ways that an rng result can be made invalid.
Either the person who posted it cannot provide evidence to show that it is valid, or they provide invalid evidence.
Previously, both those cases were handled by the rng refute tx type.
But that was a little complicated, and it was difficult to fully model the situation and make sure it is secure.
So I changed it.
Now the rng-challenge tx type checks to see how many hashes are between the 2 checkpoints.
If it is less than 10k, we do it on-chain.
If the checkpoints can be linked, then the tx is invalid.
If they cannot be linked, then the rng value is invalid.
So now the rng refute tx is only for the case where they didn't provide evidence for too long a period of time.
Either the person who posted it cannot provide evidence to show that it is valid, or they provide invalid evidence.
Previously, both those cases were handled by the rng refute tx type.
But that was a little complicated, and it was difficult to fully model the situation and make sure it is secure.
So I changed it.
Now the rng-challenge tx type checks to see how many hashes are between the 2 checkpoints.
If it is less than 10k, we do it on-chain.
If the checkpoints can be linked, then the tx is invalid.
If they cannot be linked, then the rng value is invalid.
So now the rng refute tx is only for the case where they didn't provide evidence for too long a period of time.
Z
01:48
Zack
so, doing the 10k hashes on-chain to find out if the tx is valid or not, that is a denial of service vulnerability.
So I think we need to keep the bad tx on-chain, don't update the RNG process, but still charge a fee for whoever made it.
Like how we handle txs for ending channels.
So I think we need to keep the bad tx on-chain, don't update the RNG process, but still charge a fee for whoever made it.
Like how we handle txs for ending channels.
b
02:09
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
Exactly 1000 members on the group
[
JS
07:32
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Maybe. Justin Sun can just copy the entire code base, pre mine a ton and rename it and market the hell of it. The copy cat risk is definitely high
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Kaan Aslan Yuksek invited Kaan Aslan Yuksek
DY
10:16
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
nah, even if he does copy it, all that will happen is the copy cat going up 100x then down 1000x. Because this coin is a tech coin. It is not a completely built product that just needs sales.
You need a highly technical person who understands it running it like vitalik or zack.
You need a highly technical person who understands it running it like vitalik or zack.
20:44
Deleted Account
Hi, please renew the ssl certificate on the amoveo website ;)
20:44
my AV blocks the page
Z
20:45
We can't control that part of github anyway
Z
20:46
Zack
That is a fan website. I guess try contacting them directly.
20:46
Deleted Account
ahh ok
Micka invited Micka
10 March 2020
Gatis Eglitis invited alexd
Arsenii Hurtavtsov invited Arsenii Hurtavtsov
Z
Z
12:05
Zack
So the sortition chain, it is dividing up the probabilistic value space between different owners.
It would be nice if we could also divide along the output space of turing complete smart contracts. So we could have stablecoins inside the sortition chain.
but we already have channels inside the sortition chain. Maybe it is better to embed the stablecoins inside the channels?
And what if someone makes a baby sortition chain out of stablecoins?
We could have non-fungible sortition chains. Would that be good or bad?
It would be nice if we could also divide along the output space of turing complete smart contracts. So we could have stablecoins inside the sortition chain.
but we already have channels inside the sortition chain. Maybe it is better to embed the stablecoins inside the channels?
And what if someone makes a baby sortition chain out of stablecoins?
We could have non-fungible sortition chains. Would that be good or bad?
12:09
oh, I remember.
We do the turing completeness in the step of giving up control.
We do the turing completeness in the step of giving up control.
12:10
I think this is all we need to have a baby-sortition chain made of stablecoins.
ŽM
Hyip Investa invited Hyip Investa
Z
19:10
Zack
In reply to this message
I think this design choice is a significant discovery for blockchain scalability and sidechain research.
Z
19:43
Zack
it has many benefits.
* By default, the on-chain claim of your value is much smaller. You only post a smart contract on-chain if someone else locked a safety deposit and challenged you to produce the smart contract.
* giving up control is instant. You don't have to wait for the validators to get a merkle root recorded on-chain. So these kinds of smart contracts can be updated faster, leading to better UX.
* using this strategy, the side-chain validators don't need to keep track of so many smart contracts. The sidechain is more scalable because in most cases, the only people who need to remember a smart contract is if it is part of the history of money that you own.
* By default, the on-chain claim of your value is much smaller. You only post a smart contract on-chain if someone else locked a safety deposit and challenged you to produce the smart contract.
* giving up control is instant. You don't have to wait for the validators to get a merkle root recorded on-chain. So these kinds of smart contracts can be updated faster, leading to better UX.
* using this strategy, the side-chain validators don't need to keep track of so many smart contracts. The sidechain is more scalable because in most cases, the only people who need to remember a smart contract is if it is part of the history of money that you own.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
11 March 2020
j
00:42
jozuka
veoscanner up soon?
Z
00:44
Zack
catweed hasn't responded in a while. Maybe they don't want to operate veoscan any more.
There are other tools to access all the same information.
There are other tools to access all the same information.
I
j
I
00:47
Instinct
👍
T
16:40
Topab
It should be interesting to build a trustless tontine insurance in Amoveo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tontine
Z
19:42
Zack
In reply to this message
life insurance usually doesn't work for blockchain oracles.
Because it isn't public knowledge who is alive.
A person could fake their death, or their family could pretend they are still alive.
Because it isn't public knowledge who is alive.
A person could fake their death, or their family could pretend they are still alive.
ŽM
20:32
Živojin Mirić
I keep my grandma in the freezer, she is dead already so it's free pension money without consequences.
12 March 2020
Corleone invited Corleone
MF
20:40
Mr Flintstone
Ethereum oracles running into big problems today
20:43
apparently makerdao eth price feed is still ~167
20:45
wouldn’t it be a shame if the ppl with tons of eth in the contract were the same ones controlling the oracle and are hesitant to liq themselves
ŽM
20:46
Živojin Mirić
If we fall below 1000 users I will sell all my veo and leave this lvl1 chat
Z
D
ŽM
21:18
Živojin Mirić
Omg
D
21:18
Devender
🙈
ŽM
21:18
Živojin Mirić
*turning-on-qtrade*
MF
21:50
Mr Flintstone
the feed is still stuck at 166?
Z
21:52
Zack
I don't know where to look it up
MF
21:52
Mr Flintstone
Dai is trading off peg now
21:52
122 dai per eth vs 130 usd per eth
21:53
s
21:53
snaketh4x0r
Maker took a hit
MF
21:54
Mr Flintstone
yeah MKR is -50% on the day though blood is everywhere
Z
21:59
Zack
augur's update was betting it all on dai, so I guess if the dai feed is wrong, it will be bad for them.
MF
21:59
Mr Flintstone
I am wondering if they will do an emergency shutdown now
Z
22:00
Zack
ethereum has so many interlocking parts. with the dai feed this far off, things could break in unexpected ways.
22:12
looks like the maker feed is right now.
So I guess it is just slow.
I wonder who can profit from that slowness.
So I guess it is just slow.
I wonder who can profit from that slowness.
MF
22:18
Mr Flintstone
in their tg they said they were doing it to give ppl a chance to top up the collateral so they don’t get liquidated
Z
22:19
Zack
Hahaha
That doesn't sound trustless at all.
That doesn't sound trustless at all.
s
MF
22:20
Mr Flintstone
problem is u shift the incentives if the system thinks eth is worth 166. It gives you more dai than it should
s
22:20
snaketh4x0r
Also dydx was using maker feeds
MF
22:20
Mr Flintstone
oof
22:22
the times when you need it most cannot be correlated with the oracles reliability
s
22:22
snaketh4x0r
MF
22:23
Mr Flintstone
this is pretty bad. I would think because of gas fees? chainlink providers wouldn’t have a special reason to be leveraged long eth using their feeds yet right?
s
22:24
snaketh4x0r
Yeah gas prices
22:24
Whole eth mempool is bamboozled
https://etherscan.io/chart/pendingtx
https://etherscan.io/chart/pendingtx
22:25
Some transactions have gas prices above 150 but are still stuck
22:25
Even when fast gwei is 125
Z
22:25
Zack
So are miners prioritizing their own txs?
s
22:26
snaketh4x0r
I think so
22:26
Don't have concrete proof
But some txn are getting prioritized
But some txn are getting prioritized
22:27
Not with high gas prices ofc
MF
23:47
Mr Flintstone
200k eth was put into makerdao today. wonder if it was during the oracle freeze
13 March 2020
06:02
Deleted Account
Is there a list of anyone attempting to use Amoveo for sports betting?
Z
06:07
Zack
In reply to this message
we don't currently have regular users, but here is documentation to do sports betting https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/light_node/p2p_derivatives.md
And we are here to help.
And we are here to help.
06:10
Deleted Account
excellent, thank you for the link.
X
22:39
Interesting...
DY
23:41
Demi Yilmaz
In reply to this message
I think someone should create a PR with amoveo on the list : https://github.com/linda-xie/defi-oracles
Z
23:42
Zack
I think this one is only for ethereum projects. It says you have to already be on some other list to be considered.
How about I make a list for why every oracle on that page is broken.
How about I make a list for why every oracle on that page is broken.
MF
23:58
Mr Flintstone
contextualizing that they are broken with “if enough money is at stake” is helpful I think because if you say they are broken the immediate response is “well it’s working right now”
14 March 2020
Z
00:12
Zack
yes, that makes sense
hc
00:56
hugh chiu
What's the difference btw Amoveo oracle and LINK?
Z
00:57
Zack
you can read about Amoveo's oracle design here https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//design/oracle.md
00:58
I wrote about chainlink here, but it is kind of old now. they might have changed stuff https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//other_blockchains/chainlink.md
hc
07:54
hugh chiu
Thank you, Oracle of Amoveo get off chain data manually by users, isn't it too slow? And only logical true or false results can be obtained.
LINK seems to be more efficiency
LINK seems to be more efficiency
Z
08:00
Zack
In reply to this message
any data can be converted into binary form.
Each binary Amoveo oracle can provide one bit of data.
So with enough oracles, you can put any data into Amoveo.
If the 2 participants in a contract can agree on how the oracle would resolve, if it was created, then they can end the contract instantly.
You only need to make the oracle if the person on the other side of your contract disappears or refuses to cooperate.
For financial derivatives, you only care about the value being measured on the expiration date.
Having an oracle that publishes values at any other time is not useful.
A price-feed type oracle can not possibly be secure, because there is not enough time for the result to escalate to the point where a hard update recovery could be affordable.
Each binary Amoveo oracle can provide one bit of data.
So with enough oracles, you can put any data into Amoveo.
If the 2 participants in a contract can agree on how the oracle would resolve, if it was created, then they can end the contract instantly.
You only need to make the oracle if the person on the other side of your contract disappears or refuses to cooperate.
For financial derivatives, you only care about the value being measured on the expiration date.
Having an oracle that publishes values at any other time is not useful.
A price-feed type oracle can not possibly be secure, because there is not enough time for the result to escalate to the point where a hard update recovery could be affordable.
Z
09:28
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/use-cases-and-ideas/derivative_liquidation.md
I wrote about how we could program Amoveo derivatives to get liquidated. also called a "margin call".
And reasoning for why we might want to do that.
I wrote about how we could program Amoveo derivatives to get liquidated. also called a "margin call".
And reasoning for why we might want to do that.
09:34
I heard everyone wants to get liquidated lately. Amoveo isn't left out. We can get liquidated too.
13:03
May be relevant here
Z
17:36
Zack
In reply to this message
Does this blog post make sense to everyone? Does anyone have questions?
17:36
I want to post it pretty soon
s
18:56
snaketh4x0r
lulz
Z
20:58
Zack
There is a certain combination of tools that is coming together in Amoveo, I think it allows for new styles of programming much more powerful than what exists today.
A chalang smart contract can glue together bits of english and generate oracle text.
We can reference billions of different oracles in a sortition chain, and the only way any of them would need to go on-chain is if both:
1) the winning lottery ticket depends on that oracle.
2) your counterparty from when you made the bet in that oracle, they refused to simplify the contract at the end.
Since only a tiny fraction of oracles will ever end up on-chain, we don't have to be afraid of using them heavily.
Since the oracles are off-chain, the smart contracts using oracles can be updated instantly, we don't have to wait for any confirmations.
So users can write a completely custom contract in english, and use it the same way any other smart contract is used, and it doesn't cost anything extra vs normal amoveo smart contracts.
A chalang smart contract can glue together bits of english and generate oracle text.
We can reference billions of different oracles in a sortition chain, and the only way any of them would need to go on-chain is if both:
1) the winning lottery ticket depends on that oracle.
2) your counterparty from when you made the bet in that oracle, they refused to simplify the contract at the end.
Since only a tiny fraction of oracles will ever end up on-chain, we don't have to be afraid of using them heavily.
Since the oracles are off-chain, the smart contracts using oracles can be updated instantly, we don't have to wait for any confirmations.
So users can write a completely custom contract in english, and use it the same way any other smart contract is used, and it doesn't cost anything extra vs normal amoveo smart contracts.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Arturo Ccbc invited Arturo Ccbc
15 March 2020
Z
10:53
Zack
I made a new test for the sortition chain.
it creates a channel inside of the sortition chain.
it updates the balance in that channel.
it closes the channel inside the sortition chain, so now the sortition chain has 2 accounts inside of it.
then the sortition chain settles, and one of the 2 accounts wins all the money.
it creates a channel inside of the sortition chain.
it updates the balance in that channel.
it closes the channel inside the sortition chain, so now the sortition chain has 2 accounts inside of it.
then the sortition chain settles, and one of the 2 accounts wins all the money.
10:58
I found a couple one-line bugs.
It seems like the sortition chain hard update is ready.
but I think ill make some more tests before we add it to Amoveo.
It seems like the sortition chain hard update is ready.
but I think ill make some more tests before we add it to Amoveo.
10:59
it is a big update. I think no matter how many tests I make, we will need to do a few more hard updates to fix mistakes.
Z
18:05
Zack
It is great that sortition chains is designed and implemented, but it is still going to be a long time until we can see their full potential.
We need to build a lot of infrastructure on top of this, and there are lots of difficult design choices that need to be made.
I guess ill start by making a small lottery application and selling tickets. Then I will slowly keep adding features to the lottery.
We need to build a lot of infrastructure on top of this, and there are lots of difficult design choices that need to be made.
I guess ill start by making a small lottery application and selling tickets. Then I will slowly keep adding features to the lottery.
PALKA COMMUNITY BOT invited PALKA COMMUNITY BOT
Z
18:25
Zack
keeping track of proofs of who owns which value in a sortition chain, and writing code so that multiple validators can work together to manage a sortition chain.
It is like writing an entire PoS blockchain.
It is like writing an entire PoS blockchain.
18:29
and then we will need code so that people can sync history for part of the sortition chain
Kay invited Kay
A
21:34
Alex
Thoughts on this?
21:35
The Tellor philosophy is that is relying on a single oracle is never wise or sound.
Z
21:36
Zack
So their plan is to use many broken oracles together.
That doesn't seem like an improvement to me.
That doesn't seem like an improvement to me.
21:39
As long as it is profitable to make the Oracle lie, then people will make it lie.
21:40
Trusting one person is bad. Trusting a 5 groups of people is also bad.
We should use trustless tech and not trust anyone.
We should use trustless tech and not trust anyone.
21:51
I think so. I'll check
X
21:53
X | NPC
Thanks
Deleted invited Deleted Account
A
22:44
Are you familiar with the project?
Z
22:47
Zack
I haven't looked into it since I wrote that review. I think it has been over 6 months
C
23:29
Craig
Maybe Zack you could write an article
"how amoveo would have performed during Corona crypto crash March 2020"
assuming amoveo was the industry standard oracle.
Would amoveo have been able to help MaKR? Or a hypothetical trustless bitmex? Or anything else
"how amoveo would have performed during Corona crypto crash March 2020"
assuming amoveo was the industry standard oracle.
Would amoveo have been able to help MaKR? Or a hypothetical trustless bitmex? Or anything else
JS
23:55
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Might make sense to write a detailed post of road map from here after implementation of sortition chain.
16 March 2020
Z
02:23
In reply to this message
I think from here until product market fit, all we will be doing is making tools for betting, and testing it out on people, and making modifications based on their feedback.
In particular, I am thinking I'll start making at least one bet every day, so I can get a lot of first hand experience as a user.
In particular, I am thinking I'll start making at least one bet every day, so I can get a lot of first hand experience as a user.
ŽM
02:33
Živojin Mirić
We should think of an idea on how to leverage futarchy and Amoveo to immediately help humanity in this crisis? Zack it would be great for global awareness of Amoveo
Z
C
10:49
Craig
In reply to this message
Great idea.
Maybe we can give Zack suggestions for what to bet on the first week.
Still trying to find product market fit so maybe a wide range of subjects is the way to go
Maybe we can give Zack suggestions for what to bet on the first week.
Still trying to find product market fit so maybe a wide range of subjects is the way to go
14:17
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Without much thinking, set up prediction markets for daily Corona stats per country, make fees high enough so that a large part of the proceeds can be donated for the purchase of protective equipment.
One of the freakish consequences of the pandemic is the cancellation of sports events and thus the downfall of sports betting.
Highly questionable and controversial, with totally unreliable data sources (govts reporting), but interesting nonetheless.
One of the freakish consequences of the pandemic is the cancellation of sports events and thus the downfall of sports betting.
Highly questionable and controversial, with totally unreliable data sources (govts reporting), but interesting nonetheless.
14:22
Actually it's a pretty fkn good idea. It would immediately make the news, Amoveo would get stigmatized for profiteering on humanity's demise, but then you realise that it's just taking money from amoral degenerates and giving it to those most in need.
C
17:04
Craig
Im anonymous right? At least pseudoanonymous?
In that case I agree. Let's bet on Wuhan virus!
Longer term, branch out into anti biotic resistant super germs or other pandemic markets?
Or is it always too difficult to trust the official data?
Anyway, daily bets are the best way to figure it out
In that case I agree. Let's bet on Wuhan virus!
Longer term, branch out into anti biotic resistant super germs or other pandemic markets?
Or is it always too difficult to trust the official data?
Anyway, daily bets are the best way to figure it out
Z
19:16
The flattening the curve strategy that they are pushing in USA.
This could actually be a very bad strategy that will lead to a much higher death rate.
I think a lot more people would survive if we all go out and get infected as quickly as we can.
If the disease isn't spreading in bars and restaurants, then that means it is only spreading in hospitals. So the strain that causes more hospitalizations will become more common, it will evolve to become more deadly.
How about we use futarchy to find out if the flattening the curve strategy is helpful or harmful.
This could actually be a very bad strategy that will lead to a much higher death rate.
I think a lot more people would survive if we all go out and get infected as quickly as we can.
If the disease isn't spreading in bars and restaurants, then that means it is only spreading in hospitals. So the strain that causes more hospitalizations will become more common, it will evolve to become more deadly.
How about we use futarchy to find out if the flattening the curve strategy is helpful or harmful.
19:18
We could measure the correlation of how many deaths in 2 months vs whether the CDC changes their recommendations about flattening the curve
Z
19:44
Zack
Although, more social exposure could increase the number of short term deaths.
What we want is some indicator of how deadly it is. Like, the percentage of people that catch it who die.
What we want is some indicator of how deadly it is. Like, the percentage of people that catch it who die.
I
Z
20:52
Zack
What metric should we be comparing against?
Number of deaths is not going to work for short term bets.
Number of deaths is not going to work for short term bets.
20:52
Long term bets are less accurate because people don't want their money locked up so long
C
21:31
Craig
Bet on dates?
Like if certain events will be cancelled?
Or if certain measures will be taken by certain dates?
Like if certain events will be cancelled?
Or if certain measures will be taken by certain dates?
Z
22:31
Zack
Oh, maybe we should bet on whether the CDC or WHO will change their recommendations about social distancing and flattening the curve.
C
22:42
Craig
In reply to this message
Go for it!
If you're posting a bet every day not every one needs to be perfect.
Try a bunch, see what works and what attracts users
If you're posting a bet every day not every one needs to be perfect.
Try a bunch, see what works and what attracts users
MF
22:49
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
can’t you do short term reported deaths? like as aggregated by the Johns Hopkins covid case tracker?
Z
22:50
Zack
In reply to this message
I'm thinking that social isolation reduces short term deaths and increases long term deaths.
17 March 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
18:49
Zack
In reply to this message
In the context of blockchains, we use the word "oracle" to describe any tool that can bring publicly available data onto the blockchain.
For example, if you want to bet on the outcome of a football game, the blockchain would use an oracle to find out who won the game to correctly enforce the outcome of the bet.
For example, if you want to bet on the outcome of a football game, the blockchain would use an oracle to find out who won the game to correctly enforce the outcome of the bet.
B
19:58
Ben
btw. hitbtc is working again, i could withdraw my veo
Z
19:58
Zack
Oh no, I hoped we finally escaped them
B
20:05
Ben
nope, they are back in the game.
18 March 2020
Z
09:04
Zack
I am thinking about in sortition chains, how we should divide up the computation between the merkel proof that goes on-chain, and the off-chain waivers.
I realized that we can move a lot more of the computation off-chain. the entire merkel proof for which part of the probabilistic value space you own, it can all go off-chain.
Lets say the probabilistic value space is from 0.0 -> 1.0
and bob owns the part from 0.1 to 0.3.
Bob wants to send alice the part from 0.1 -> 0.2.
So the way we would do this, first off Alice would sign a waiver giving up control of 0.0 -> 0.1, and from 0.2 -> 1.0.
Then the validators would make Alice next in line to win.
I realized that we can move a lot more of the computation off-chain. the entire merkel proof for which part of the probabilistic value space you own, it can all go off-chain.
Lets say the probabilistic value space is from 0.0 -> 1.0
and bob owns the part from 0.1 to 0.3.
Bob wants to send alice the part from 0.1 -> 0.2.
So the way we would do this, first off Alice would sign a waiver giving up control of 0.0 -> 0.1, and from 0.2 -> 1.0.
Then the validators would make Alice next in line to win.
09:10
The cost of this strategy is that the amount of data Alice would need to download before accepting a payment is much higher.
She would need to sync the entire history of the entire probability space.
She would need to sync the entire history of the entire probability space.
09:15
we can either do computation when making a claim that you won the lottery, or we can do computation when proving that someone's claim is false.
the advantage of doing computation when you prove that you have won, is that this reduces how much data you need to keep track of to be able to prove that you own what you own. The on-chain computation divides up the probabilistic value space, and you only need to remember the history for the slice of this space that you own.
The advantage of doing computation when you prove that someone did not win, is that this reduces how much data needs to go on-chain. We can have very large complicated contracts with hundreds of rules, and you only need to put the one rule that they broke on-chain.
the advantage of doing computation when you prove that you have won, is that this reduces how much data you need to keep track of to be able to prove that you own what you own. The on-chain computation divides up the probabilistic value space, and you only need to remember the history for the slice of this space that you own.
The advantage of doing computation when you prove that someone did not win, is that this reduces how much data needs to go on-chain. We can have very large complicated contracts with hundreds of rules, and you only need to put the one rule that they broke on-chain.
Z
09:42
Zack
So if we use waivers to do stablecoins.
Lets say bob owns some stablecoins.
There must be some other person holding the opposite side of the contract, lets call them Alice.
If Bob spends some of his stablecoins to Charlie.
in order to accept these stablecoins, charlie needed to sign a waiver giving up control of Alice's contract.
Now if Alice wants to spend her contract for long-veo, the person downloading the history of Alice's contract will notice that Charlie is next in line to own the value.
So Alice needs to remember a copy of the waiver that Charlie had signed. Alice needs that waiver if she wants to be able to spend her contract.
So this means that every time Charlie makes a payment, it increases the data costs for Alice.
Alternatively, we could allow for the stablecoin smart-contract to be computed at the step when someone claims that they had won, instead of doing it in a waiver. Then Alice wouldn't have any extra data from Charlie making payments, but the on-chain merkel proof for Alice to claim ownership would be one step longer. Alice would need to put all the oracles for the price of the stablecoin on-chain
Lets say bob owns some stablecoins.
There must be some other person holding the opposite side of the contract, lets call them Alice.
If Bob spends some of his stablecoins to Charlie.
in order to accept these stablecoins, charlie needed to sign a waiver giving up control of Alice's contract.
Now if Alice wants to spend her contract for long-veo, the person downloading the history of Alice's contract will notice that Charlie is next in line to own the value.
So Alice needs to remember a copy of the waiver that Charlie had signed. Alice needs that waiver if she wants to be able to spend her contract.
So this means that every time Charlie makes a payment, it increases the data costs for Alice.
Alternatively, we could allow for the stablecoin smart-contract to be computed at the step when someone claims that they had won, instead of doing it in a waiver. Then Alice wouldn't have any extra data from Charlie making payments, but the on-chain merkel proof for Alice to claim ownership would be one step longer. Alice would need to put all the oracles for the price of the stablecoin on-chain
09:45
But maybe a third option could be available to us.
Maybe Alice only needs to put the hash of the smart contract on-chain, and claim that if the contract was run, it would show that she had won.
If someone else actually won, then they could provide the contract later, and the blockchain would confirm that it matches the hash.
Maybe Alice only needs to put the hash of the smart contract on-chain, and claim that if the contract was run, it would show that she had won.
If someone else actually won, then they could provide the contract later, and the blockchain would confirm that it matches the hash.
Z
10:32
Zack
kind of like pay-to-script-hash in bitcoin.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
B
19:19
Beer
we all should have insured ourselves betting on a pandemic with 5000/1 odds on Amoveo three months ago
19:19
now its too late
19:20
we have to rely on helicopters spouting out dollars from the sky
Z
19:50
Zack
In reply to this message
Paul sztorc confirmed that it is not possible to use bitcoin hivemind to enforce early liquidation.
C
Z
20:02
Zack
The ability to liquidate derivatives contracts early if the price crosses a margin is a important feature.
When it comes to leveraged contracts, this is enough to make amoveo 10x better than tools which lack this feature.
It means that leveraged contracts will be much cheaper.
When it comes to leveraged contracts, this is enough to make amoveo 10x better than tools which lack this feature.
It means that leveraged contracts will be much cheaper.
20:04
We already knew Amoveo's oracle was a lot cheaper to use than competitors.
But now it looks like the leveraged smart contracts that depend on our oracle will also be much cheaper than the competition.
But now it looks like the leveraged smart contracts that depend on our oracle will also be much cheaper than the competition.
20:18
Thanks to @Jbreezy0 for realizing how important the liquidation feature is.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
19 March 2020
03:34
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Zack, what do you make of the stablecoins? Are they really stable?
CD
05:29
Crypt Dweller
.... When it comes to leveraged contracts, this is enough to make amoveo 10x better than tools which lack this feature. ....
This is the golden ticket
This is the golden ticket
Z
05:34
Zack
In reply to this message
here is how to make stablecoins in Amoveo https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/light_node/p2p_derivatives.md
it probably doesn't work well right now, because we don't have a good way to measure the price of VEO right now.
it probably doesn't work well right now, because we don't have a good way to measure the price of VEO right now.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
09:52
Zack
In reply to this message
I am getting ready to implement this.
Are we sure this doesn't cause any data availability issues?
Do we need to embed the entire contract into the ownership proof instead of just the hash?
Are we sure this doesn't cause any data availability issues?
Do we need to embed the entire contract into the ownership proof instead of just the hash?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
ŽM
16:13
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
I agree 100% but we can't just start using this GREAT software, Futarchy has to decide for us if it's good or not, WE CANNOT KNOW stuff like that as mere flawed humans
21 March 2020
C
00:31
Craig
Maybe construct a bet around this chloroquine treatment of the Virus?
Some say it has been 100% successful so far and could be key to defeating this thing, fast.
Others are quite skeptical.
Less creepy subject than betting on deaths
Some say it has been 100% successful so far and could be key to defeating this thing, fast.
Others are quite skeptical.
Less creepy subject than betting on deaths
Z
00:32
Zack
some anti-malaria drugs have bad permanent side effects. What are the side effects of chloroquine?
00:34
looks like it makes older black people itchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroquine#Side_effects
00:35
even if the side effects aren't serious, it would still be nice to get a better estimate on how effective this drug will be.
MF
00:55
Mr Flintstone
not a doctor but i think hcq has more mild side effects
00:56
also the severity of the side effects isnt as important as their frequency imo
Z
00:58
Zack
if the death rate of Covid is very low, and the side-effects of this drug are bad enough, then it might not be worth taking. or maybe it should only be used for people who are especially vulnerable.
We could ask about stuff like that
We could ask about stuff like that
Z
06:28
Zack
I guess the best question to ask is whether major institutions like WHO will be recommending this drug in 2 or 3 months time.
Z
07:26
Zack
In reply to this message
I can't see any way this would cause data availability issues.
But it is making the ownership tree more complicated.
Usually with merkle trees we want to be able to calculate the key used to look up an object from that object itself.
For example, the account object has your pubkey written in it, and that pubkey is used to look up that account.
So when we are storing an account in the tree database, we can generate a key and use that key to know where the account should be stored.
The problem with turing complete contracts is that they can be embedded inside of each other.
Like, if I owned some stablecoins, and I wanted to bet my stablecoins against someone else's stablecoins, and I wanted this bet to be in layer 2 instead of layer 3.
Then that means the ownership object showing that I won, it needs a complicated smart contract that contains both the stablecoin logic, and the rule for our bet.
We want the ownership objects to be fixed size, so we can't have a list of contract hashes.
Maybe we need to maintain some off-chain database connecting the root hash of a contract to the list of sub-contracts contained inside?
That way if we are storing an ownership object in the merkle tree, we can use it's contract hash to look up it's list of sub-contract hashes, and use that list to know where the ownership object should be stored.
But it is making the ownership tree more complicated.
Usually with merkle trees we want to be able to calculate the key used to look up an object from that object itself.
For example, the account object has your pubkey written in it, and that pubkey is used to look up that account.
So when we are storing an account in the tree database, we can generate a key and use that key to know where the account should be stored.
The problem with turing complete contracts is that they can be embedded inside of each other.
Like, if I owned some stablecoins, and I wanted to bet my stablecoins against someone else's stablecoins, and I wanted this bet to be in layer 2 instead of layer 3.
Then that means the ownership object showing that I won, it needs a complicated smart contract that contains both the stablecoin logic, and the rule for our bet.
We want the ownership objects to be fixed size, so we can't have a list of contract hashes.
Maybe we need to maintain some off-chain database connecting the root hash of a contract to the list of sub-contracts contained inside?
That way if we are storing an ownership object in the merkle tree, we can use it's contract hash to look up it's list of sub-contract hashes, and use that list to know where the ownership object should be stored.
07:31
I think it is an important feature that if Alice sells a stablecoin contract to Bob, that Bob should be able to spend his stablecoins without Alice's permission, and that this should not increase the data storage requirement for Alice.
Implementing sortition chains and writing these tests is leading to good discoveries.
Implementing sortition chains and writing these tests is leading to good discoveries.
07:34
This seems too complicated.
Im thinking we should give up on the goal of having it be fixed sized, and lets just store a list of contract hashes with each ownership object.
Im thinking we should give up on the goal of having it be fixed sized, and lets just store a list of contract hashes with each ownership object.
CD
12:49
Crypt Dweller
I don't know what any of that means, but sounds good to me Zack 👍 Keep devving away--continue to be an inspiration.
mx
12:53
mr x
Why is there 3 channel creation txs? http://explorer.veopool.pw/index.php?input=BHTrPpHSLQiJH03E6v4jXVfCX9ZqV5RSPJQYTvTMSy8m/6mH+18YYRLzolyvJY0eX/oyuK8GfIavUDGbc+mykGU=
12:54
tried to create only 1
12:54
now 4???
12:56
Keeps going on until im drained?? 😅
Z
12:58
Zack
looks like a bug
12:58
I think only one channel will actually get created.
Yes, you should move the money out of your account so it wont get drained.
Yes, you should move the money out of your account so it wont get drained.
mx
12:59
mr x
😅 ok
Z
13:01
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/txs/new_channel_tx2.erl#L95
We did a hard update to prevent this account nonce from getting updated.
I think that enabled this error.
The error we are seeing is that a tx can be re-used.
We did a hard update to prevent this account nonce from getting updated.
I think that enabled this error.
The error we are seeing is that a tx can be re-used.
13:02
In reply to this message
I can try and do a refund together with the hard update to prevent this bug.
It looks like the channels had 0.2 veo on one side and 0.1 veo on the other.
It looks like the channels had 0.2 veo on one side and 0.1 veo on the other.
13:02
so, 0.9 veo were lost so far.
mx
13:03
mr x
yeah whatever with refund...bug fix pretty important 😅
13:03
and noone should createa channles now
Z
13:03
Zack
13:04
there is already a line here to make sure we aren't re-making the same channel again
13:05
they sure look the same
mx
13:06
mr x
i clicked once
Z
13:08
Zack
it looks like the channel id is getting calculated internally. ill make a test and get to the bottom of this.
mx
13:09
mr x
ok 👍
Z
13:17
Zack
I made a failing test of this error. It should be straightforward to find a fix now.
Z
13:37
Zack
looks like in channel.erl, for
Those 2 cases need to be handled differently.
I think some other merkle trees are doing this same mistake.
dict_get, it is giving the same response for not having data in the small ram data structure as it gives for having a merkle proof of the lack of data in the tree.Those 2 cases need to be handled differently.
I think some other merkle trees are doing this same mistake.
Z
16:24
Zack
this bug is like the classic mistake in logic based programming systems.
Just because an expression cannot be proven with the available facts, that doesn't mean it is false.
We need to distinguish between what is unknown, and what is known to be false.
Just because an expression cannot be proven with the available facts, that doesn't mean it is false.
We need to distinguish between what is unknown, and what is known to be false.
Z
17:30
Zack
the fix makes block 53292 crash, and it is not clear at all why that is happening, since that block only has an oracle_close tx and doesn't touch any channels.
17:40
our first priority is to patch this bug.
I have a managed to find a solution to the test, so we can do a hard update to patch the bug now.
The solution is to fix which data is being looked up in proofs.erl, that way the correct data is available to process the tx.
I will add a task to the todo list that we should distinguish between unknown vs known to be false, this upgrade will make Amoveo easier to reason about, and will prevent more errors like this one we fixed just now.
I have a managed to find a solution to the test, so we can do a hard update to patch the bug now.
The solution is to fix which data is being looked up in proofs.erl, that way the correct data is available to process the tx.
I will add a task to the todo list that we should distinguish between unknown vs known to be false, this upgrade will make Amoveo easier to reason about, and will prevent more errors like this one we fixed just now.
Z
19:24
Zack
@Simon3456 @potat_o
announcing Amoveo hard update 30.
It will activate at height 108600, which is around the 27th of March.
The purpose of this hard update is to fix a bug that was letting new_channel txs get re-published into multiple different blocks.
announcing Amoveo hard update 30.
It will activate at height 108600, which is around the 27th of March.
The purpose of this hard update is to fix a bug that was letting new_channel txs get re-published into multiple different blocks.
19:24
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//getting-started/updating.md here is the documentation for updating.
s
19:49
sanket
is there a trello board for public roadmap?
Z
19:52
Zack
I've got a todo list here https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/todo.md
19:53
Basically the plan is to get sortition chains operational, and then work with early users to make a product that they enjoy.
Sortition chains is our plan for scalability.
Sortition chains is our plan for scalability.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
22 March 2020
Z
00:17
Zack
https://twitter.com/robinhanson/status/1241267241942999040 This looks like a controversial question to use futarchy for.
00:17
too bad the channels are in quarantine
OK
07:24
Lately I've really been wishing amoveo was more mature so we could practice our futarchy vs all this disinformation about the virus
Z
07:25
Zack
Yes
OK
07:25
O K
I was lucid dreaming about being unable to really tell what's real news anymore, and rediscovered that futarchy is the answer in my sleep
Z
07:25
Zack
It is true. We need futarchy more than ever
Š
07:32
Šea
Too bad we spent 2019. reviewing other projects
Z
07:33
Zack
The ability to bet in oracles that don't exist yet us a critical feature that we never would have made if we hadn't taken the time to review other projects and learn what ideas they had.
07:41
This feature lead to us discovering how to do early liquidation if the price crosses a limit.
ŽM
07:42
We had THE same Futarchy-dream
07:43
:O
OK
07:43
O K
:O
Z
07:43
Zack
Sortition chains are a collection of features from other projects too
Deleted invited Deleted Account
CD
14:35
Crypt Dweller
o_O cool dream thanks for sharing
23 March 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
21:04
Deleted Account
Hello everyone! ✌️😊
Who is the right person to discuss the listing on the exchange?
Who is the right person to discuss the listing on the exchange?
Z
21:26
Zack
This is a place to discuss amoveo.
K
21:50
K
Why do you think no one has attempted a bribery attack on pos networks?
24 March 2020
Z
19:58
Zack
Does anyone understand the US govs plan to made a digital dollar?
Does this have any significance for cryptocurrency?
I thought most dollars in banks were digital already.
Does this have any significance for cryptocurrency?
I thought most dollars in banks were digital already.
20:03
In reply to this message
looks like they have no idea what they are going to make. lots of different plans.
20:04
I am guessing this is mostly a publicity thing, not something we need to care about at this point.
20:11
Thanks for sharing Alfred
25 March 2020
CD
01:19
Crypt Dweller
Good morning Zack, wish you luck with your work today.
ŽM
01:32
Živojin Mirić
Zack doesn't need luck, luck is for plebs and mere humans
01:32
FUTARCHY IS THE ONLY WAY
01:32
OUT OF THIS CRISIS
Z
08:32
Zack
I am working on the algorithm for building up the ownership merkle tree for the sortition chain.
Before it was simpler, we were just dividing up the probabilistic value space.
Now we can divide up by contract or by probabilistic value space.
So we need some way to decide whether to divide by contract first, or by probabilistic value space first.
Before it was simpler, we were just dividing up the probabilistic value space.
Now we can divide up by contract or by probabilistic value space.
So we need some way to decide whether to divide by contract first, or by probabilistic value space first.
08:34
if we have lots of people making small contracts between the pair of them, and then settling back to veo, I guess it would be better to divide by contract deeper in the tree.
That way less of the merkle tree is being changed with each update of the contracts.
On the other hand, if we have one person making a massive amount of stablecoins, and then lots of people are spending these stablecoins between each other and making stablecoin denominated contracts, I think in that case it would make more sense to divide by contract space first.
But maybe I am over-thinking this, and it doesn't matter.
That way less of the merkle tree is being changed with each update of the contracts.
On the other hand, if we have one person making a massive amount of stablecoins, and then lots of people are spending these stablecoins between each other and making stablecoin denominated contracts, I think in that case it would make more sense to divide by contract space first.
But maybe I am over-thinking this, and it doesn't matter.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Anger Trading invited Anger Trading
Z
20:06
Zack
i am struggling to understand if smart contracts should always be in layer 3, or if we want them in both layer 2 and 3.
20:11
The probabilistic value space is like the space of rational numbers between 0 and 1.
the contract space is like the space created by a 2^256 binary number, where you can set some of the bits to 1 or 0, and let the rest of the bits be free.
If we have smart contracts in layer 2, then we need to divide up the 2D space made by combining the probabilistic value space with the contract space.
the contract space is like the space created by a 2^256 binary number, where you can set some of the bits to 1 or 0, and let the rest of the bits be free.
If we have smart contracts in layer 2, then we need to divide up the 2D space made by combining the probabilistic value space with the contract space.
20:12
In reply to this message
so, the reason we decided that we need smart contracts at layer 2, is because if Alice and Bob have a smart contract together, we want Bob to be able to spend his side of the smart contract without needing Alice's permission, and without creating any data storage requirement for Alice.
20:14
In reply to this message
dividing by contract first is dangerous, because it can cause a data availability vulnerability.
If Alice owns veo in a sortition chain, and Bob creates a contract with Charlie, we want it to never be the case that Alice needs to know the content of Bob and Charlie's contract in order to claim her winnings.
If Alice owns veo in a sortition chain, and Bob creates a contract with Charlie, we want it to never be the case that Alice needs to know the content of Bob and Charlie's contract in order to claim her winnings.
20:16
the problem with dividing by probabilistic space first, is that our current algorithm to verify that none of the ownership claims are overlapping stops working.
So I guess we need a new algorithm for this.
So I guess we need a new algorithm for this.
Z
23:13
Zack
Our current strategy to check for overlap is to put all the probabilistic space claims in an ordered list, and then check that every adjacent pair is non-overlapping.
I am thinking instead we need a tree-based algorithm.
It should remember the current possible 2D bounds as it walks deeper down the tree, and confirm that every leaf it reaches is within the bounds described by the path to reach it.
I think we should add a similar check to the merkle proof verifier. To handle the case where one ownership claim is entirely enclosed inside the 2D bounds of another.
I am thinking instead we need a tree-based algorithm.
It should remember the current possible 2D bounds as it walks deeper down the tree, and confirm that every leaf it reaches is within the bounds described by the path to reach it.
I think we should add a similar check to the merkle proof verifier. To handle the case where one ownership claim is entirely enclosed inside the 2D bounds of another.
26 March 2020
Z
20:33
Zack
This channel is for Amoveo.
On discord there is an off-topic channel. You can talk about drugs there if you want.
On discord there is an off-topic channel. You can talk about drugs there if you want.
Z
K
Z
21:43
Zack
Cardano is one of the pos blockchains, right?
21:44
We could steal that quote from kiayias for sortition chains, haha
27 March 2020
S
00:22
Sy
Cardano is transitioning to pos, I think still ongoing
00:22
Cardano is ADA
Z
00:24
Zack
looks like I have reviewed them before https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//other_blockchains/ouroboros.md
Avicii invited Avicii
Z
07:09
Zack
In reply to this message
I implemented a first version of all this in the sortition branch.
07:20
there are still problems with building up the new merkle tree.
Z
09:32
Zack
In reply to this message
We added that feature to amoveo after I saw discussion about it in uma.
CD
11:49
Crypt Dweller
Zack do you ever have far out dream about the technology you're building?
Z
11:54
Zack
Sometimes I will realize the solution to a design problem while I sleep.
CD
11:56
Crypt Dweller
Very cool
11:56
Like August Kekule
CD
12:17
Crypt Dweller
I wonder if it would be useful to use futarchy to try and hire scott locklin to improve amoveo in some capacity https://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/consulting-services/
12:17
This guy is kind of like Zack
12:19
looks like he was a former blockchain engineer for brave too, interesting
12:19
With this caveat on his LinkedIn: "Recruiters: I am not interested in your dumb Bay Area megacorp." lol
12:19
At least we know Amoveo doesn't fit that bill
12:21
I made peace today with the fact that I will keep buying VEO until it goes to 0. I don't care!
Z
20:28
Zack
There is a trading channel on discord. Or you can use qtrade. This is not a place for trading.
S
28 March 2020
S
01:51
Sy
Poor btc
TG
03:43
Toby Ganger
In reply to this message
Price reflects the network effect of any crypto. So far Amoveo has been entirely focused on technical development to make the best possible product. But the utility of that technology is only useful as it develops a network. So it’s a brilliant product in the technical sense and virtually non-existent in the social sense. Hopefully at some point we can turn SOME attention to the social sense so it’s technical brilliance can fully materialize.
Z
07:21
Zack
In reply to this message
I fixed these problems. we have some passing tests. I will make more tests.
29 March 2020
Z
12:54
Zack
In order to do turing complete computation in layer 2 efficiently, we need to be able to embed contracts in the merkle proof that records who owns which parts of the probabilistic value space.
So then at a later stage, someone can make a fraud proof to show that the result of one of the contracts is wrong.
I updated the sortition_claim_tx in the sortion branch to build this merkle tree, and calculate the root, and store it in the candidate object.
So then at a later stage, someone can make a fraud proof to show that the result of one of the contracts is wrong.
I updated the sortition_claim_tx in the sortion branch to build this merkle tree, and calculate the root, and store it in the candidate object.
30 March 2020
mx
19:03
mr x
How do I create oracle onchain?
Z
19:04
Zack
The light node has tools for that. But keep in mind that you can make bets on oracles that do not yet exist.
mx
19:04
mr x
yea i wanna do umcooperative close of contract
Z
19:05
Zack
Ok. Feel free to ask more questions here.
mx
19:06
mr x
i go new_oracle.html and get successfully attempted to make a binary oracle with OID: qWXjhOlUgt2135Gz0PE8YAdxjoZYCoFapyYLNx94OEg=
Z
19:06
Zack
Then you probably already made one
mx
19:08
mr x
lookup.html doesn't show anything
Z
19:08
Zack
It takes time for the tx to get included in a block
mx
19:08
mr x
yeah i think i wait couple of blocks already
Z
mx
19:10
mr x
new_oracle.html gave success though?
Z
19:11
Zack
What text do you want in the Oracle? What expiration? Ill try making it too.
mx
19:11
mr x
Done?
19:12
108770
19:12
lol
Z
19:24
Zack
I should get to my computer in like 10 more min
mx
19:24
mr x
ok
Z
19:38
Zack
the server is giving an error. ill look into this more now
19:44
looks like the tx is being created in a malformed way.
it has the atom "null" in it, which means a variable wasn't defined in javascript.
it has the atom "null" in it, which means a variable wasn't defined in javascript.
19:45
it is supposed to store the height at which the oracle starts.
19:45
and in the spot where it is supposed to store the question, it is storing the string "108770"
19:47
I can't imagine how an error like this happened, but it should be a fairly easy fix.
I will release a new version of the light node in the next few hours, and update the servers to use the new version.
I will release a new version of the light node in the next few hours, and update the servers to use the new version.
Z
20:05
Zack
hahaha it was user error. I typed the input in the wrong fields
20:07
ok, so the problem is that you are trying to make an oracle that starts at a height which occurred before the current height.
this isn't allowed right now.
Should we do a hard update to allow for the creation of this kind of oracle?
this isn't allowed right now.
Should we do a hard update to allow for the creation of this kind of oracle?
20:07
20:08
108770 < 108783
mx
21:04
mr x
"the result that this oracle should have will be knowable by block height"
21:05
why would you not allow onchain creation after that hmm?
Z
21:05
Zack
Yes, I think you are right.
We should probably do a hard update to make it possible to make oracles like that.
We should probably do a hard update to make it possible to make oracles like that.
mx
21:06
mr x
yup
Z
21:06
Zack
I think this rule was written a long time ago, before we knew that people would be betting on oracles that do not yet exist.
mx
21:06
mr x
right
Z
21:07
Zack
I should be able to write the hard update in the next 12 hours or so, but it will take a week to activate.
mx
21:07
mr x
ok
G
21:08
Gregory
Zack, can you share the roadmap for 2020 please?
ŽM
Z
21:10
Zack
In reply to this message
The hard update for sortition chains is nearly done.
Then we will be making light node tools to use the new features.
When the team is this small, we can adapt really fast. So our plans don't need to be very detailed.
Then we will be making light node tools to use the new features.
When the team is this small, we can adapt really fast. So our plans don't need to be very detailed.
mx
21:11
mr x
super easy ui for p2p bets 😅plz
G
21:11
Gregory
how big is the team ? only you?
mx
21:11
mr x
sortition chains make p2p bets better?
Z
21:12
Zack
In reply to this message
We already have an interface for p2p, it can still be improved a lot. make suggestions on what you would like changed.
G
21:14
Gregory
973 ? i assure you 972 are just watchers
Z
21:15
Zack
In reply to this message
Haha
Mr x just made an important suggestion for a hard update. There is a lot that gets done besides writing software.
Mr x just made an important suggestion for a hard update. There is a lot that gets done besides writing software.
21:16
I have found that as long as I accomplish all the easy boring parts, that people tend to give me the solutions to the hard problems for free.
mx
21:16
mr x
make it like chrome extension? minimize clicks everywhere (single page app, clicking to sync every time 😅, have only the functionality for p2p bets no un related stuff..., not reloading keys everytime 😅, store chanels automatically on local storage, show pending/confirmed txs so that user knows whats going on...)
21:16
so much
21:16
more
G
21:16
Gregory
well still so far it has been your exercise to code something rather a product for the world
mx
21:17
mr x
the you would have nice challenges peoples bullshit on twitter type of app
21:18
would have been nice now when covid
21:18
and nice promotion for project as well
Z
21:19
Zack
In reply to this message
good ideas.
You don't need to save channel state any more.
The channel offer is the only thing you need to save.
You don't need to save channel state any more.
The channel offer is the only thing you need to save.
mx
21:19
mr x
yeah save that
31 March 2020
Z
12:26
Zack
We are going to have 4 different kinds of environments where turing complete contracts can be run.
The combination of which should allow us to build convenient interfaces for derivatives.
1) state channels.
state channel computation is instantaneous, but you are restricted to only interacting with the one person that you have a channel with.
This tool tends to have liquidity issues.
on-chain state channels also have problems of block congestion. If there is not space on-chain to publish evidence that you won your channel, then your claim isn't enforceable.
2) state channels in sortition chains. If your channel in the sortition chain wins the lottery, then that channel gets created on-chain with all the money from the lottery inside of it. It works like a normal on-chain channel.
This kind of channel also has liquidity issues.
It has lottery risk.
Since you will win so much money, you can afford high fees, so on-chain congestion is not a problem.
3) sortition contracts. Besides dividing up the value in the sortition chain probabilistically, we can also divide it up based on the outcome of a smart contract. Only the merkle root of this contract is contained in the merkle proof showing that you own part of the value in the sortition chain. If you lie about the outcome of a smart contract, someone else can post that smart contract to show that you lied, and you lose money for this.
This kind of computation has the draw-back that it is slow to update your contract. You need to wait for a merkle root to get recorded on-chain, and for enough confirmations on top of it so you can be sure that the tx wont get orphaned.
Unlike state channels, you cannot provide script-sig style evidence when the contract is run. So it isn't possible to atomically connect this kind of contract to others.
4) waivers. Ownership in a sortition chain is like standing in a line for each part of the value. A person can give up their spot in line without having to post anything on-chain. They simply send a message to whoever is second in line, so it can be instantaneous.
You can embed a smart contract in the waiver, so that you can give up your spot in line conditional on the outcome of a football game for example.
The drawback of waivers is that in some cases, the amount of data you may need to keep track of to own value in the sortition chain can become very large. For example. if you use a waiver to sell a stablecoin contract and are left holding long-veo, and then other people keep trading those stablecoins between each other. In that situation, if you want to be able to spend your long-veo, then you would need to remember the entire history of their transfers.
I expect that waivers will mostly be used to atomically connect different contract changes together.
The combination of which should allow us to build convenient interfaces for derivatives.
1) state channels.
state channel computation is instantaneous, but you are restricted to only interacting with the one person that you have a channel with.
This tool tends to have liquidity issues.
on-chain state channels also have problems of block congestion. If there is not space on-chain to publish evidence that you won your channel, then your claim isn't enforceable.
2) state channels in sortition chains. If your channel in the sortition chain wins the lottery, then that channel gets created on-chain with all the money from the lottery inside of it. It works like a normal on-chain channel.
This kind of channel also has liquidity issues.
It has lottery risk.
Since you will win so much money, you can afford high fees, so on-chain congestion is not a problem.
3) sortition contracts. Besides dividing up the value in the sortition chain probabilistically, we can also divide it up based on the outcome of a smart contract. Only the merkle root of this contract is contained in the merkle proof showing that you own part of the value in the sortition chain. If you lie about the outcome of a smart contract, someone else can post that smart contract to show that you lied, and you lose money for this.
This kind of computation has the draw-back that it is slow to update your contract. You need to wait for a merkle root to get recorded on-chain, and for enough confirmations on top of it so you can be sure that the tx wont get orphaned.
Unlike state channels, you cannot provide script-sig style evidence when the contract is run. So it isn't possible to atomically connect this kind of contract to others.
4) waivers. Ownership in a sortition chain is like standing in a line for each part of the value. A person can give up their spot in line without having to post anything on-chain. They simply send a message to whoever is second in line, so it can be instantaneous.
You can embed a smart contract in the waiver, so that you can give up your spot in line conditional on the outcome of a football game for example.
The drawback of waivers is that in some cases, the amount of data you may need to keep track of to own value in the sortition chain can become very large. For example. if you use a waiver to sell a stablecoin contract and are left holding long-veo, and then other people keep trading those stablecoins between each other. In that situation, if you want to be able to spend your long-veo, then you would need to remember the entire history of their transfers.
I expect that waivers will mostly be used to atomically connect different contract changes together.
Z
12:44
Zack
@Simon3456 @potat_o announcing hard update 31. The purpose of this update is to allow for the creation of oracles that have a trading start date earlier than the current block height.
This is an important feature for when we make bets using oracles that do not yet exist.
We don't want there to be a time limit, after which it becomes impossible to create these oracles.
It activates at block 109900, which is in about a week. around April 6.
Here is our documentation about updating. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//getting-started/updating.md
This is an important feature for when we make bets using oracles that do not yet exist.
We don't want there to be a time limit, after which it becomes impossible to create these oracles.
It activates at block 109900, which is in about a week. around April 6.
Here is our documentation about updating. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//getting-started/updating.md
Z
13:22
Zack
In reply to this message
oh, we also have computation inside the oracles.
But the oracles can be mixed into any of those 4 types already listed.
oracles are especially powerful with (1), (2), and (4), because the contract can know about many oracles that do not yet exist on-chain, and you only need to create one of those many oracles to enforce the correct outcome. like how we plan to do limit orders.
But the oracles can be mixed into any of those 4 types already listed.
oracles are especially powerful with (1), (2), and (4), because the contract can know about many oracles that do not yet exist on-chain, and you only need to create one of those many oracles to enforce the correct outcome. like how we plan to do limit orders.
13:27
The difference between (3) and (4) is similar to the difference between the script pubkey and the script sig in state channel, and the script pubkey and script sig in bitcoin transactions.
13:29
I feel like a major difference between amoveo and other projects, is that they start with a product goal and try to make it work.
But for us, it is more like we are exploring the limits of what is possible with this tech, and trying to find the most useful tool inside those limits.
But for us, it is more like we are exploring the limits of what is possible with this tech, and trying to find the most useful tool inside those limits.
Z
19:24
Zack
In reply to this message
The delay in sortition chain activation is because we realized that (3) needs to be turing complete as well.
ŽM
22:53
Živojin Mirić
I miss football, but Futarchy is better
Z
22:54
Zack
Haha
I don't watch sports.
I don't watch sports.
D
22:55
Devender
Hehe
Z
22:57
Zack
My favorite sport is baduk
22:58
I think it has important lessons that are helpful in building Amoveo.
D
Z
23:01
Zack
yes, baduk is go.
in Amoveo futarchy is first in command, and everyone else is second.
in Amoveo futarchy is first in command, and everyone else is second.
ŽM
23:04
Živojin Mirić
NO!
23:04
I will not accept gommunism!
23:04
Futarchy != Gommunism
23:05
if we lived in gommunism we would never discover futarchy
23:05
we would have to worry about toilet paper and salt
Z
23:07
Zack
Futarchy is about letting markets make decisions for us.
Communism, to the best of my knowledge, is about taking the means of production away from rich people, for the benefit of the average person.
Some communists do talk about getting rid of hierarchy, and futarchy is about getting rid of hierarchy, so in that way they have something in common.
Communism, to the best of my knowledge, is about taking the means of production away from rich people, for the benefit of the average person.
Some communists do talk about getting rid of hierarchy, and futarchy is about getting rid of hierarchy, so in that way they have something in common.
ŽM
23:08
Živojin Mirić
Zack plis don't go that way!
23:08
you can have something in common
23:08
but gommunism == bad
23:09
futarchy == good (or GOD)
1 April 2020
Z
02:50
Zack
I feel like there is little creativity in building Amoveo.
Nature imposes limits that force my hand.
It is more like discovery than engineering.
I think people coming at blockchain with an engineer's perspective is going to fail.
Nature imposes limits that force my hand.
It is more like discovery than engineering.
I think people coming at blockchain with an engineer's perspective is going to fail.
Z
08:10
Zack
In reply to this message
I wrote the tx type for fraud proofs for type (3) smart contract. And I made a passing test.
08:23
In the merkle tree that keeps track of who owns which probabilistic value in the sortition tree, one of the ways we distinguish the ownership objects is by priority.
This way the validators can put multiple people in line to own the same value in a single on-chain commitment, which makes waiver based smart contract, (type 4 from above), much more convenient.
Currently the priority is determined near the root of the tree, which I am realizing is a problem.
Because if you want to prove to someone that you are currently first in line to own some value, and that they are second in line, you would need to show that every possible priority of every on-chain commitment, that none of them are putting someone in line between you and who you are trying to send to.
So I am thinking maybe we want to push any priority stuff as far as we can towards the leaves of the tree.
That way, only people who are actually using it need to go through the effort of recording multiple proofs per on-chain commitment, and those multiple proofs can share as much data as possible.
This way the validators can put multiple people in line to own the same value in a single on-chain commitment, which makes waiver based smart contract, (type 4 from above), much more convenient.
Currently the priority is determined near the root of the tree, which I am realizing is a problem.
Because if you want to prove to someone that you are currently first in line to own some value, and that they are second in line, you would need to show that every possible priority of every on-chain commitment, that none of them are putting someone in line between you and who you are trying to send to.
So I am thinking maybe we want to push any priority stuff as far as we can towards the leaves of the tree.
That way, only people who are actually using it need to go through the effort of recording multiple proofs per on-chain commitment, and those multiple proofs can share as much data as possible.
Z
18:28
Zack
there is a kind of interesting trade off.
By pushing the priority info to the leaves, it makes the entire merkle tree that the validators need to record, it makes it bigger.
but the amount of data that needs to be sent around the network, and the amount of data each user needs to remember to be able to spend their value, this is all smaller.
By pushing the priority info to the leaves, it makes the entire merkle tree that the validators need to record, it makes it bigger.
but the amount of data that needs to be sent around the network, and the amount of data each user needs to remember to be able to spend their value, this is all smaller.
ŽM
18:47
Živojin Mirić
Can someone translate this to more layman TLDR style? I have an attention span of 4 rows or 5 seconds max and many more people do so please to spread futarchy we need this, ok thx
Z
ŽM
18:49
Živojin Mirić
everything but in TLDR style ok
18:49
I will meditate in the evenging so after that I will try to read this
Z
18:49
Zack
tldr: entropy increases.
18:50
that is my 2-word description of our universe.
18:51
In reply to this message
oh, you want to know about the structure of the sortition merkle tree? what for? I don't think you are a programmer.
ŽM
18:52
Živojin Mirić
I am a programmer of my life and I will program it to promote futarchy!
Z
18:53
Zack
then learn about futarchy, its social and political consequences.
Don't worry about the tiny details of how the data structures work.
Don't worry about the tiny details of how the data structures work.
ŽM
18:57
Živojin Mirić
but am I to buy more amoveo?
18:58
I will start to lift weights tommorrow it will help with futarchy, thx!
Z
18:58
Zack
A smart contract is a kind of data.
to be enforced, the smart contract needs to be shared among many nodes.
Since this data needs to be shared, in order to achieve scalability, it needs to be immutable.
If we limit ourselves to only using immutable smart contracts, then it is impossible to do things like debt or ERC-20 subcurrencies. The only kind of contracts that are possible are derivatives.
to be enforced, the smart contract needs to be shared among many nodes.
Since this data needs to be shared, in order to achieve scalability, it needs to be immutable.
If we limit ourselves to only using immutable smart contracts, then it is impossible to do things like debt or ERC-20 subcurrencies. The only kind of contracts that are possible are derivatives.
2 April 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
11:03
Zack
So the order I am going with in the sortition merkle tree is:
root: sortition chain ID -> portion of probability space -> portion of contract space -> priority :leaves
root: sortition chain ID -> portion of probability space -> portion of contract space -> priority :leaves
3 April 2020
K
01:42
K
Would a POS chain that obfuscates how much each address is staking be secure enough?
Z
01:43
Zack
good question.
01:43
ill think about it
K
01:43
K
I think that's in a realm of possibility
01:44
of being able to be created
Z
01:45
Zack
the issue is that people are self-motivated to reveal a proof of their balance, in order to accept bribes.
01:45
even if it is possible to obfuscate balances by default, you can't stop people from proving their balance to each other purposefully.
01:47
I think vitalik has written about this before. he said something about using a zero knowledge proof to prove your balance without needing to reveal your private key.
01:50
the attacker would release an alternative version of the full node software for stakers to easily participate in the attack.
K
01:51
K
don't you think it would be hard to convince people to use the attackers full node? If an attacker offered me his version of a full node I definitely wouldn't download it
01:51
out of risk of it stealing my coins
Z
01:52
Zack
if you don't participate in the attack, and it succeeds, you will be worse off than if you had participated.
The code is open source, and potentially reviewed by well known people. there could be prediction markets showing a high degree of confidence that the attacker software does what the attacker says it will do.
The code is open source, and potentially reviewed by well known people. there could be prediction markets showing a high degree of confidence that the attacker software does what the attacker says it will do.
01:52
the attacker could potentially be a large trusted institution.
01:54
like, an institution with a lot of reputation at stake, so they can't afford to lie about something like this.
Z
Z
09:42
Zack
What is left before we can activate sortition chains:
* I am going to make the cost of a new RNG result increase with the number of existing ones in the on-chain queue. This will prevent an attack where someone makes lots of fake results to slow down settlement time of the sortition chain.
* a way to prove the non-existence of things in the sortition ownership merkle proof.
* think more if there are other tests we should do before activating it.
* I am going to make the cost of a new RNG result increase with the number of existing ones in the on-chain queue. This will prevent an attack where someone makes lots of fake results to slow down settlement time of the sortition chain.
* a way to prove the non-existence of things in the sortition ownership merkle proof.
* think more if there are other tests we should do before activating it.
Z
10:10
Zack
I partially solved proving the non-existence of things.
There is a tough case I am working on.
Lets say I own from 0.1 -> 0.2, and I want to check to make sure no one new is put in line in any sortition chain update.
In one update, someone is put in line for 0.15 -> 0.25, it is partially overlapping with the region I own.
This is the case I haven't solved yet.
There is a tough case I am working on.
Lets say I own from 0.1 -> 0.2, and I want to check to make sure no one new is put in line in any sortition chain update.
In one update, someone is put in line for 0.15 -> 0.25, it is partially overlapping with the region I own.
This is the case I haven't solved yet.
10:22
I think maybe we could need to download proofs for several bordering regions, to show that the region we care about is entirely contained within the larger proved region.
Z
10:39
Zack
I think we want to use the floodfill algorithm here, starting from a corner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_fill
We keep grabbing proofs of adjacent regions, until we have covered the entire space we care about.
It would be nice if we could batch this operation.
We keep grabbing proofs of adjacent regions, until we have covered the entire space we care about.
It would be nice if we could batch this operation.
CD
13:21
Crypt Dweller
I can't help but feel that Amoveo is one of the most beautiful technologies being made anywhere in the world right now. I think I speak for everyone who closely follows Zack's work when I say we are uplifted by his vision and initiative.
Z
23:10
Zack
Currently the steps of the sortition merkle tree, they are enough to uniquely identify one of the ownership contracts out of the set stored in that merkle tree.
I am thinking we should add more merkle proof steps, so that it uniquely identifies an ownership contract out of the set of possible ownership contracts.
To do this we would need to store un-owned empty contracts in all the places where no contract exists.
Which would make it trivial to prove that a contract does not exist, we just show that an empty contract is stored in the location where it would exist, or show that a combination of empty contracts entirely covers the space that we care about.
In ethereum they would say that I want to "upgrade the merkle tree to be sparse".
I am thinking we should add more merkle proof steps, so that it uniquely identifies an ownership contract out of the set of possible ownership contracts.
To do this we would need to store un-owned empty contracts in all the places where no contract exists.
Which would make it trivial to prove that a contract does not exist, we just show that an empty contract is stored in the location where it would exist, or show that a combination of empty contracts entirely covers the space that we care about.
In ethereum they would say that I want to "upgrade the merkle tree to be sparse".
23:11
idk why they call it "sparse".
Especially doesn't make sense in this case, because this change will result needing to store more data for the tree.
Especially doesn't make sense in this case, because this change will result needing to store more data for the tree.
23:22
the other option is to have a proof, look at the bounds specified by the proof, and subtract the bounds specified by the ownership contract it proves, and the resulting space is provably empty.
But it seems really complicated to program it that way.
But it seems really complicated to program it that way.
4 April 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
5 April 2020
Z
19:25
Zack
In reply to this message
I think I am going with this version that I had thought was more complicated.
Because the proofs are smaller, and the sortition tree database is smaller.
It is better to store less data and do a little more computation.
Because the proofs are smaller, and the sortition tree database is smaller.
It is better to store less data and do a little more computation.
6 April 2020
Z
10:45
Zack
I am realizing that these sortition merkle proofs, they should contain all the priorities that can be proven for that contract.
So if 3 people are added to the line to own a particular part of the sortition chain, and they were all added into the line in the same merkle root confirmation, a merkle proof of any one of their contracts is actually a proof of the list containing all 3.
Because we are using these proofs of ownerships off-chain to prove the history of ownership of part of the sortition chain value.
if you are proving your ownership on-chain in order to claim winnings, you still only need to prove one element from the list.
So if 3 people are added to the line to own a particular part of the sortition chain, and they were all added into the line in the same merkle root confirmation, a merkle proof of any one of their contracts is actually a proof of the list containing all 3.
Because we are using these proofs of ownerships off-chain to prove the history of ownership of part of the sortition chain value.
if you are proving your ownership on-chain in order to claim winnings, you still only need to prove one element from the list.
10:57
Maybe this same concept should be extended to contract space and probability space.
this way the process of verifying that a large part of the sortition value doesn't have anyone new getting in line in a given part of history, this process can be batched.
So a merkle proof is a slice of the entire tree, only containing the parts we care about.
this way the process of verifying that a large part of the sortition value doesn't have anyone new getting in line in a given part of history, this process can be batched.
So a merkle proof is a slice of the entire tree, only containing the parts we care about.
11:01
Getting this data-structure right is going to make it much easier to program the sortition chain.
s
15:24
sanket
https://github.com/UMAprotocol/whitepaper
has anyone checked out this protocol?
They claim to have an oracle construction, called a Data Verification Mechanism (DVM) that guarantees the economic security of a smart contract and oracle system in a fully decentralized and permissionless blockchain setting
has anyone checked out this protocol?
They claim to have an oracle construction, called a Data Verification Mechanism (DVM) that guarantees the economic security of a smart contract and oracle system in a fully decentralized and permissionless blockchain setting
Z
18:46
Zack
In reply to this message
Here is my review of uma https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//other_blockchains/UMA.md
James C. invited James C.
Josh invited Josh
JC
20:03
James C.
Hello 👋
J
20:04
Josh
Hey guys. Zack, thanks for the invite!
Z
20:04
Zack
Welcome Josh.
Josh wants to learn about sortition chains
Josh wants to learn about sortition chains
J
20:04
Josh
I've been talking over sortition chains with James, so I sent him the invite link as well.
Z
20:05
Zack
great. Welcome James, thanks for your interest.
20:06
Sortition chains are like a mixture of probabilistic payment type scaling, with payment channel type scaling.
It is largely based on Plasma research from Etheruem.
It is largely based on Plasma research from Etheruem.
J
20:06
Josh
My first question is about this: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/design/sortition_chains_theory.md#the-leverage-of-sortition-chains
20:06
"So a person with only 1 veo can generate and profit from 20+ veo worth of sortition chains all containing smart contracts."
Z
20:06
Zack
yes, ok
20:07
yes
J
20:07
Josh
Is the idea that someone would start out with 1 veo, start a 1 veo chain, make some fees, close it out and now have 1.2 veo. Start another chain with 1.2 veo, etc, and work up to a 20 veo chain?
Z
20:08
Zack
I guess I didn't explain that part well enough.
J
20:08
Josh
I guess they wouldn't close it out, they'd just get 1.2 veo of value for all the tickets on the chain.
Z
20:08
Zack
oh, yes, you got it.
20:08
that is how it works
J
20:08
Josh
ok, cool.
Z
20:09
Zack
a simple example would be like a lottery. if I made a prize of 10 veo, and broke it up into 100 lottery tickets, and sold each ticket for 0.12 VEO.
So after selling all the tickets, I have 12 veo and can afford to make a new sortition chain
So after selling all the tickets, I have 12 veo and can afford to make a new sortition chain
J
20:09
Josh
"The capital cost of being a sortition chain operator is very low." You actually need to fully fund the chain, so in that sense the capital cost isn't low or leveraged. But you don't need much other capital so over time you can leverage up.
20:11
Now, if I sell someone a ticket and I want to pay someone else (Alice), Alice's wallet has to recognize my operator as legit and trustworthy in order to accept the payment.
20:12
"What if the sortition operators refuse to allow you to move your money? Will you get stuck holding lottery risk?"
20:13
In this case, would you imagine there would be some liquidator entrepreneur who would gather up all the tickets from customers of this operator, during the final chance period?
20:14
They would then have the winning tickets and be able to cash them out on-chain for the usual fees.
Z
20:14
Zack
In reply to this message
not exactly.
Even if the operator doesn't cooperate, they usually can't cause you to be stuck holding lottery risk.
And you can make sortition chains inside of sortition chains, and the baby sortition chain has a new list of validators. So Alice can choose her own validators, or she can be the validator of her own sortition chain.
Even if the operator doesn't cooperate, they usually can't cause you to be stuck holding lottery risk.
And you can make sortition chains inside of sortition chains, and the baby sortition chain has a new list of validators. So Alice can choose her own validators, or she can be the validator of her own sortition chain.
20:15
In reply to this message
if there are N validators and all N of them work together, they can cause you to hold lottery risk.
If any one of the validators is honest, then you don't hold lottery risk, you get one last chance to sell your value in the sortition chain before it ends.
If any one of the validators is honest, then you don't hold lottery risk, you get one last chance to sell your value in the sortition chain before it ends.
20:16
So if there are 10 people who want to have value in a sortition chain, we can each choose 1 validator that we trust, and the new sortition chain will have 10 validators.
As long as 1 of the validators doesn't freeze your money, you aren't stuck with lottery risk.
As long as 1 of the validators doesn't freeze your money, you aren't stuck with lottery risk.
20:18
It is not profitable for validators to freeze people's money and cause them to hold lottery risk.
But it does harm the validator's reputation.
This kind of attack can only happen if all the validators are working together to cause the attack, so if the attack occurs, it destroys all their reputations.
But it does harm the validator's reputation.
This kind of attack can only happen if all the validators are working together to cause the attack, so if the attack occurs, it destroys all their reputations.
J
20:19
Josh
Got it. I was referring to the case where a validator just blocks txs ("Tx censorship attack").
20:20
You still wouldn't want to hold 0.1% chance of winning $10k, so you'd need to sell to someone who would collect tons of tickets.
Z
20:20
Zack
if any one of the validators stops cooperating, then the sortition chain can't be updated.
Everyone who owns value has one last chance to sell it at the end, so you aren't left holding lottery risk.
Everyone who owns value has one last chance to sell it at the end, so you aren't left holding lottery risk.
20:21
and this final payment can be connected to a turing complete contract. So we can use an atomic swap to make it trustless for example.
J
20:22
Josh
So one possibility would be to swap for other veo in other chains that weren't compromised by this operator.
Z
20:22
Zack
you could swap into a different blockchain, or into a different sortition chain on Amoveo, or onto the Amoveo main-chain. lots of options.
J
20:23
Josh
yup. thanks for walking me through, I just wanted to make sure I was on the same page.
20:23
personally, I think LN can't work and lots of BTC resources are being wasted on a failed approach to scaling.
Z
20:25
Zack
Channels don't really make sense for scalability.
But they are great tools for atomically connecting updates of different smart contracts.
For example, if you have a market, and people want to trade fairly in that market, you need to have single-price batches.
Using channels we can connect many trades together and enforce a single-price batch.
If you try doing markets on-chain, single price batches are impossible, the miners can front run.
But they are great tools for atomically connecting updates of different smart contracts.
For example, if you have a market, and people want to trade fairly in that market, you need to have single-price batches.
Using channels we can connect many trades together and enforce a single-price batch.
If you try doing markets on-chain, single price batches are impossible, the miners can front run.
20:26
channel are also good for speed.
You don't have to wait for confirmations. you can update your smart contract or make a payment instantly.
You don't have to wait for confirmations. you can update your smart contract or make a payment instantly.
20:27
that is why we allow for channels inside of the sortition chain.
J
20:27
Josh
but aren't sortition updates fast since they just rely on the operators?
Z
20:28
Zack
the operators need to sign a merkle root of the new version of the sortition chain state, and they need to get it included on-chain, and you need to wait enough confirmation to be sure that the merkle root wont get un-done.
20:29
so normal sortition chain smart contracts are not faster than on-chain contracts would be.
J
20:29
Josh
ohh, missed that part.
20:30
I need to go back and internalize how all this works together.
Z
20:30
Zack
Asking questions here is very valuable to Amoveo. Don't be afraid to ask more.
J
20:31
Josh
Thanks! It's super helpful because now I'm more confident that understand at least some of the parts.
20:45
Have you worked out an example of how you'd do some derivatives trading with these different kinds of smart contracts?
x
20:46
x
erlang is better than anyother language?
Z
20:46
Zack
I think by default we want to record who owns which derivatives using sortition contracts, and that we want to create single-price batches to trade them using waivers.
Some people will want to put their derivatives inside of channels, like if you want to have a stablecoin and make instant micro-payments with it.
Some people will want to put their derivatives inside of channels, like if you want to have a stablecoin and make instant micro-payments with it.
20:47
so you could use a stablecoin to pay for your coffee, and not have to wait for any confirmations.
x
20:47
x
in that tweet you mean for blockchain, erlang is best language?
Z
20:51
Zack
In reply to this message
with erlang, the small parts of your program connect together the same way that big parts do.
It allows your code to be a self-similar fractal.
Erlang is not the best language for everything you could want to do, but it is the best choice in most cases.
It allows your code to be a self-similar fractal.
Erlang is not the best language for everything you could want to do, but it is the best choice in most cases.
J
x
21:50
x
is elixir good?
Z
22:34
Zack
In reply to this message
I wrote an earlier version of amoveo in elixir.
Elixir and erlang use the same VM, so they are very similar.
The problems I had with Elixir was that it was changing too quickly, so a lot of documentation I would find online was out of date. I couldn't figure out how to use all the OTP features in Elixir.
The pipe syntax in elixir is a cool feature.
I think I would be more interested in using LFE for a project instead of Elixir, if I wanted to use the erlang VM and not use erlang.
I feel like elixir's only real advantage is that the syntax feels more normal to the average programmer.
Elixir and erlang use the same VM, so they are very similar.
The problems I had with Elixir was that it was changing too quickly, so a lot of documentation I would find online was out of date. I couldn't figure out how to use all the OTP features in Elixir.
The pipe syntax in elixir is a cool feature.
I think I would be more interested in using LFE for a project instead of Elixir, if I wanted to use the erlang VM and not use erlang.
I feel like elixir's only real advantage is that the syntax feels more normal to the average programmer.
Z
23:43
Zack
In reply to this message
it seems like we either want a proof of all the priorities, or just one.
So I am thinking we should reserve priority
So every ownership leaf in the merkle tree, it's priority cannot be 0.
So I am thinking we should reserve priority
0 to mean looking up the entire space of priorities, and use integers >0 if we are looking up a single priority.So every ownership leaf in the merkle tree, it's priority cannot be 0.
7 April 2020
Z
ŽM
00:44
Živojin Mirić
great job Zack!
00:45
👍
Z
00:56
Zack
00:58
the 2 things we want to be able to prove are either that no one new was put in line to own your part of the sortition value, or that you were put in line to own part of the sortition value.
showing that no one new is in line is easy, we just check that the part you own and the leaf that is proved are non-overlapping.
showing that you are next in line is more difficult, but I think I solved it.
First we need to calculate the intersection of the proved region with the space you are supposed to be in line for, then we check that this region is contained inside the leaf being proved.
showing that no one new is in line is easy, we just check that the part you own and the leaf that is proved are non-overlapping.
showing that you are next in line is more difficult, but I think I solved it.
First we need to calculate the intersection of the proved region with the space you are supposed to be in line for, then we check that this region is contained inside the leaf being proved.
01:01
It is kind of cool, using set theory to program Amoveo.
K
01:15
K
Can you give a list of cool features that users are able to use today on amoveo?
Z
01:21
Zack
In reply to this message
* mining
the light node has all the stuff for typical users http://159.89.87.58:8080/home.html
* spending veo.
* we have the only working oracle, so you can bet on publicly available data.
* making a bet offer is entirely off-chain. it doesn't go on-chain unless someone accepts the other side of your bet.
* You can use oracles that don't exist yet, and only create them in the case of a dispute.
Some advanced features:
* chalang VM for making custom turing complete smart contracts inside of the state channels.
* compiler for chalang so that you can use lisp-like syntax to write smart contracts.
the light node has all the stuff for typical users http://159.89.87.58:8080/home.html
* spending veo.
* we have the only working oracle, so you can bet on publicly available data.
* making a bet offer is entirely off-chain. it doesn't go on-chain unless someone accepts the other side of your bet.
* You can use oracles that don't exist yet, and only create them in the case of a dispute.
Some advanced features:
* chalang VM for making custom turing complete smart contracts inside of the state channels.
* compiler for chalang so that you can use lisp-like syntax to write smart contracts.
K
Z
03:37
Zack
sure, but you should choose a date by which we will check if he died or not
03:37
so like, if he will die before May 10
03:46
In reply to this message
I got this stuff working.
Next I will update the sortition transaction types to use the new version of sortition merkle proofs.
Next I will update the sortition transaction types to use the new version of sortition merkle proofs.
03:48
In a normal month, 5 million people die.
Z
05:40
Zack
if Boris Johnson's doctor participated in this prediction market, how illegal would that be?
s
05:47
snaketh4x0r
Why it's illegal?
05:51
lol but he could stay anonymous right?
05:53
oh yeah sure
Z
05:53
Zack
if someone does it, and it brings attention, it could be a good thing
05:55
the market contract had some problems.
I stopped maintaining it, because I will have to rewrite it to be compatible with sortition chains soon.
we only support p2p betting in the light wallet currently.
I stopped maintaining it, because I will have to rewrite it to be compatible with sortition chains soon.
we only support p2p betting in the light wallet currently.
05:56
but you can post multiple p2p bets, and anyone can accept them
05:56
it has to start with a small number anyway.
the user experience is practically identical with the p2p tool, since the volume of traders is so low.
the user experience is practically identical with the p2p tool, since the volume of traders is so low.
05:57
someone needs to fund the market maker.
05:58
Remember when we were betting on game of thrones?
There aren't many places to bet on this, and it is a popular topic.
So I could post 2 bets with a wide spread, and both would get matched.
There aren't many places to bet on this, and it is a popular topic.
So I could post 2 bets with a wide spread, and both would get matched.
05:58
giving guaranteed profit.
06:00
start small
06:01
feel free to ask questions if anything is confusing. I am here to help.
Z
06:22
Zack
what, is the market making website down?
mx
06:22
mr x
hmm never tried it
Z
06:23
it displays details about your trade in a nice way
06:23
and it gets removed automatically, when someone matches against it.
mx
06:23
mr x
oh cool
06:25
is this where someone gets into trouble 🤔
06:31
expires in 50 blocks
06:37
so what is actually the meaning of "oracle starts" ?
06:42
In moments like this it is important to offer just in time life insurance
Z
06:51
Zack
oracle starts is when it begins being possible to make bets in the oracle
06:52
it is mostly only useful if you make the oracle ahead of time, and you dont' want trading to start for a while
06:52
I am guessing for this situation, you will be able to agree on the outcome, so you wont need to make the oracle at all
06:52
so if you just put the current block height, that is fine.
06:52
oh wait
06:52
someone else could launch the oracle earlier than you expect
mx
06:53
mr x
exactly
Z
06:53
Zack
so if you want it to end on May 1, then we should try to calculate a block height after that point in time.
mx
06:53
mr x
i put 113000
Z
06:53
Zack
24 days is about 3200 blocks
mx
06:53
mr x
main.html interface doesn't show it though
06:54
someone could sneakily try to crate oracle instantly and close it
Z
06:54
Zack
ill change the light node to make this more clear in the future.
06:54
there is a 1 week delay for us to make a counter-bet if they make an oracle
06:55
so, the block height you picked should be fine.
Just try and look up the oracle around 118000 to make sure no one is closing it sneakily.
Just try and look up the oracle around 118000 to make sure no one is closing it sneakily.
mx
06:59
mr x
oh wait
06:59
he needs to copy it to accpet anyway
06:59
but still
07:00
well given 35% chance of survival according to tweet above the accepting the bet should be really good idea
07:01
is this full autism mode now
Z
07:21
Zack
im not sure it would be a good idea for me to advertise this trade offer on twitter
mx
07:23
mr x
yeah...
Z
07:38
Zack
In order for sortition chains to be useful, we are going to need software besides the full node and light node.
The validators of each sortition chain need a database to remember who is in line for every part of the sortition value.
That way they know who is allowed to add someone new in line behind themselves.
Also, the users need a wallet that is more complicated than the current light node.
it needs to verify a batch of sortition merkle proofs for every commitment made on-chain by that team of validators.
Every tx to commit a new merkle root of the sortition tree, the users need to download a merkle proof connected to that root.
So these wallets probably need to download full Amoveo blocks, and scan them for the txs that they care about.
I am thinking that I should write this wallet in javascript, maybe as an extention of the light node.
And that the validator portion should be part of the full node software that can be set up with configuration options.
The validators of each sortition chain need a database to remember who is in line for every part of the sortition value.
That way they know who is allowed to add someone new in line behind themselves.
Also, the users need a wallet that is more complicated than the current light node.
it needs to verify a batch of sortition merkle proofs for every commitment made on-chain by that team of validators.
Every tx to commit a new merkle root of the sortition tree, the users need to download a merkle proof connected to that root.
So these wallets probably need to download full Amoveo blocks, and scan them for the txs that they care about.
I am thinking that I should write this wallet in javascript, maybe as an extention of the light node.
And that the validator portion should be part of the full node software that can be set up with configuration options.
07:47
In reply to this message
https://twitter.com/edmundedgar/status/1247276517467369472?s=20
Lots of politicians might get sick in the near future. This could be an important usecase.
Lots of politicians might get sick in the near future. This could be an important usecase.
mx
07:55
mr x
When will amoveo suspend this kind of betting?
Z
07:56
Zack
how could it?
mx
07:56
mr x
hehe 😇
Z
07:56
Zack
if you post the trade somewhere, it could get deleted. but the amoveo blockchain itself, it probably will not even know the question of the oracle you are betting on. since the oracle doesn't usually go on-chain.
07:57
I guess the community could decide to start answering "bad question" to these kinds of questions.
07:57
if futarchy told us that it would be better for the price to answer "bad question" for any life insurance type questions, then I guess we would.
07:57
but I strongly suspect that Amoveo is more valuable if we allow all types of contracts that we can.
mx
08:09
mr x
is truth consensus "rule"?
08:10
lol 🤔
Z
08:10
Zack
what?
08:24
I was looking at the things we can prove in the sortition merkle tree so far, and I am realizing we are proving the wrong things. We should prove these 4 things:
X 1) that no one new is in line for your value.
2) that you are next in line for some value, and no one new was added to the line behind you.
3) a particular list of people were added to the line, in order.
4) that one particular ownership leaf exists.
X 1) that no one new is in line for your value.
2) that you are next in line for some value, and no one new was added to the line behind you.
3) a particular list of people were added to the line, in order.
4) that one particular ownership leaf exists.
08:26
maybe 1, 2, and 3 can be the same thing.
2 is a list with one element. 1 is an empty list.
2 is a list with one element. 1 is an empty list.
mx
Z
10:24
Zack
I feel like they have an incentive to over-apply medical care to a person like this, and he has an incentive to act especially sick.
Maybe he isn't sick at all.
From my understanding, the false positive rate on these tests is fairly high.
Maybe he isn't sick at all.
From my understanding, the false positive rate on these tests is fairly high.
mx
10:27
mr x
Why incentive to act sick?
10:27
also seems like a person to get big initial viral load
hc
Z
18:39
Zack
@hughchiu you can learn why PoS blockchains don't work here https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//other_blockchains/proof_of_stake.md
hc
8 April 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
9 April 2020
Z
Z
09:37
Zack
there is only one thing left on the todo list for sortition chains.
I guess ill go through the tests again, and maybe write some new ones before we can activate the hard update.
I guess ill go through the tests again, and maybe write some new ones before we can activate the hard update.
ET
09:38
Enri Topciu
How come I don’t receive my veo to my wallet Address
09:39
It says payment made but still no payment on my wallet
Z
09:39
Zack
In reply to this message
how much time passed? what is the address the recieves and the one that sends? what is the txid?
09:39
are you sending from a light node?
ET
09:39
Enri Topciu
Let me send that
09:40
BKEUVHPf05/DN3wJVLK26+uF8gfC8coBo1Q5WWUT2lNcVc7xJ1srkInU8XdTGVUAPpD9m3ch5dxJ1Yln1k+4UYg=
Z
09:41
Zack
http://explorer.veopool.pw/?input=BKEUVHPf05%2FDN3wJVLK26%2BuF8gfC8coBo1Q5WWUT2lNcVc7xJ1srkInU8XdTGVUAPpD9m3ch5dxJ1Yln1k%2B4UYg%3D looks like you got money from the mining pool a little over a day ago.
09:42
how much time passed? what is the address the recieves and the one that sends? what is the txid?
ET
Z
09:42
Zack
are you sending from a light node?
09:42
is it hard to understand me? what language is better for you?
ET
09:43
Enri Topciu
Nope
09:43
Supposed to revive on my wallet address
Z
09:44
Zack
are you sending from the light node? are you sending from an exchange? are you requesting a payment from a mining pool?
ET
09:44
Enri Topciu
Mining pool
Z
09:45
Zack
which mining pool?
ET
Z
ET
09:45
Enri Topciu
Veo pool pw
09:45
Ok thanks
09:46
Let me know please
Z
09:46
Zack
I already linked him. you can PM him if he doesn't respond.
Z
10:58
Zack
In reply to this message
we need to add a fee to the sortition claim tx, and this fee increases as the number of claims exist in that sortition chain.
This way, we can't get overwhelmed with claims, and the attacker can't make it too expensive for the real winner to claim their winnings.
So, if you make a claim, should the tx say the exact fee you pay, or a limit for how much you are willing to pay?
If it says the exact amount, it might not get included in the block. An attacker could make another tx to cause your tx to be invalid.
but if we make a limit for how much you are willing to pay, then it is harder to understand the block by scanning it's txs.
It isn't obvious how much was sent.
But I guess that is what block.meta is for anyway.
This way, we can't get overwhelmed with claims, and the attacker can't make it too expensive for the real winner to claim their winnings.
So, if you make a claim, should the tx say the exact fee you pay, or a limit for how much you are willing to pay?
If it says the exact amount, it might not get included in the block. An attacker could make another tx to cause your tx to be invalid.
but if we make a limit for how much you are willing to pay, then it is harder to understand the block by scanning it's txs.
It isn't obvious how much was sent.
But I guess that is what block.meta is for anyway.
Z
11:16
Zack
I guess ill go with the version where you put your upper limit in the tx.
J
17:56
Josh
What's the mechanism of how an attacker could cause your tx to be invalid for the fixed fee case?
Z
17:58
Zack
In reply to this message
If the cost to add your claim is $3. And you agree in the tx to pay $3. But then another claim gets added before yours, so now it costs $4.
But you didn't agree to pay $4.
So now your tx can't be included.
But you didn't agree to pay $4.
So now your tx can't be included.
J
18:14
Josh
Why does it go to $4? Is there somewhere I can read about this?
18:15
Also, even if there's a limit couldn't the fee still go higher than the limit and stop you from adding your claim?
Z
18:33
Zack
In reply to this message
If the cost of adding a claim doesn't increase, then the number of claims could grow too big.
If there are 10000 people ahead of you in line, and you need to pay a tx fee to prove each one of them invalid, it makes it prohibitively expensive to claim your winnings.
If there are 10000 people ahead of you in line, and you need to pay a tx fee to prove each one of them invalid, it makes it prohibitively expensive to claim your winnings.
18:33
In reply to this message
Yes.
So publish proofs to get a few people taken out of line. Now the line is shorter, so it costs less to make your claim
So publish proofs to get a few people taken out of line. Now the line is shorter, so it costs less to make your claim
18:35
This is basically the same way it works as adding orders to the on-chain oracle resolution mechanism. Each additional order has an exponentially growing minimum limit on how big the bet should be.
18:36
The Oracle is more like locking up money for a period of time, and the sortition claims are like a small burned fee.
18:37
We want the amount of on-chain data for each oracle/sortition chain to be small
18:37
I will update the documentation for all the new tx types soon. Now that they are written, we know all the details.
J
18:55
Josh
In reply to this message
Yeah, that will be helpful, I don't have a detailed understanding on how this all works yet.
Z
18:56
Zack
These are all minor implementation details.
What matters is that someone will win the lottery, and they are able to prove this and collect their winnings.
What matters is that someone will win the lottery, and they are able to prove this and collect their winnings.
Z
19:25
Zack
In reply to this message
I guess since the block includes a merkle proof of the current sortition state, it is easy to know how big the fee is. So having a limit instead of an exact amount should be fine.
19:39
Deleted Account
Is there a way to get in contact with an admin? I have some questions please
Z
20:05
I activated the sortition_claim listing fee in the sortition branch.
20:13
im wondering if using the listing fee this way was a mistake.
Because there is another rule that says you can only make a sortition claim if your new claim will be higher than the current highest priority claim.
So you need to provide evidence to clear out false claims before your claim can get included anyway.
Because there is another rule that says you can only make a sortition claim if your new claim will be higher than the current highest priority claim.
So you need to provide evidence to clear out false claims before your claim can get included anyway.
20:17
oh, I see a problem.
an attacker could keep publishing invalid sortition claim txs, to indefinitely delay settlement.
We need to rethink how these claims are processed.
an attacker could keep publishing invalid sortition claim txs, to indefinitely delay settlement.
We need to rethink how these claims are processed.
20:27
on the one hand, we want higher priority claims to go first. Like if your ownership is based on an earlier point in history.
but on the other hand, we don't want false claims to bump you out of your claim position, or increase the delay.
Are these goals contradictory?
Maybe we need phases of resolution. During the first phase, highest priority goes to the front, and during the second phase, you can only remove invalid claims. you can't add new claims.
but on the other hand, we don't want false claims to bump you out of your claim position, or increase the delay.
Are these goals contradictory?
Maybe we need phases of resolution. During the first phase, highest priority goes to the front, and during the second phase, you can only remove invalid claims. you can't add new claims.
J
22:15
Josh
Can't we penalize invalid claims and not valid claims? That would be more like a deposit than a fee.
Z
22:16
Zack
there is only one possible valid claim. they win the lottery.
Every invalid claim, they pay a fee, and they don't win the lottery.
Every invalid claim, they pay a fee, and they don't win the lottery.
J
22:26
Josh
Do you know for sure that your claim will be valid? In that case you don't care how high the fee is, right?
Z
22:40
Zack
If you won the lottery, you know that you won the lottery.
22:41
The only time an invalid claim is made is if someone is trying to attack the blockchain somehow
22:49
I guess I'll add a configuration options to the sortition object for how long the second phase should last
J
23:08
Josh
In reply to this message
Yeah, so if we require a very high slashing deposit for the claim, which only gets slashed if it's invalid, that should disincetivize invalid claims.
Z
23:09
Zack
right. that part is already set up.
23:11
merely disincentivizing bad behaviour isn't enough though. If it is costly to delay the sortition chain settlement, that isn't good enough.
It needs to be impossible to delay it for a significant amount of time.
It needs to be impossible to delay it for a significant amount of time.
23:11
the 2 phase plan should achieve this goal.
J
23:16
Josh
ok, looking forward to reading about the details.
Z
23:17
Zack
what details?
In phase one you can make claims, and provide evidence to show that they are invalid.
in phase 2 you can't make claims, you can only show that they are invalid.
In phase one you can make claims, and provide evidence to show that they are invalid.
in phase 2 you can't make claims, you can only show that they are invalid.
23:18
the highest priority valid claim at the end of both phases wins.
J
23:20
Josh
details about the whole design, I understood the wiki pages aren't up to date.
S
23:50
Sy
In reply to this message
Not much I can do,tx went out and is okay, explorer shows his balance, his wallet doesnt
23:50
Myveowallet broken?
DV
23:51
Denis Voskvitsov
temporarily
we missed some hardfork on the node I guess
we missed some hardfork on the node I guess
23:52
should be back soon
S
23:57
Sy
Thanks, that explains his balance not showing
10 April 2020
DV
00:00
Denis Voskvitsov
sorry for the inconvenience
it's kind of hard to follow all the updates, unfortunately
it's kind of hard to follow all the updates, unfortunately
Z
00:16
Zack
In reply to this message
I'll add you to the list of people who I notify when there is an update
K
Z
05:14
Not everyone sees all my tweets. And I tweet about a lot of other stuff, Denis probably doesn't want to read it all.
K
05:35
Just so people can see all updates without noise
Z
05:35
Zack
there is an announcements channel on discord where I put this stuff
K
05:35
K
Ah ok
Z
05:35
Zack
ill add that to my list, so from now on I will put an announcement on discord every time
Z
07:40
Zack
All together, there are 6 phases in the timeline of a sortition chain.
07:41
only the very first one has an active useful sortition chain. the next 5 are all security stuff.
2 are for RNG generation.
2 are for sortition smart contracts.
1 is for doing the final_spend tx, to prevent validators from freezing your money and forcing you to take lottery risk.
sortition new
activity in the sortition chain
trading ends
you can do a final_spend
entropy source
now we find the RNG to resolve the sortition contract.
rng_end
the rng process can go through several fraud-proof cycles, each resetting the rng_response_delay timer
rng_confirm_tx %we need to store this height in sortition.
now you can make sortition_claim_txs, sortition_contract_txs, and sortition_waivers_txs
rng_confirm height + delay
it is still possible to make sortition_waiver_txs and sortition_contract txs, but not sortition_claim_txs
rng_confirm height + delay + 2nd_delay
2 are for RNG generation.
2 are for sortition smart contracts.
1 is for doing the final_spend tx, to prevent validators from freezing your money and forcing you to take lottery risk.
sortition new
activity in the sortition chain
trading ends
you can do a final_spend
entropy source
now we find the RNG to resolve the sortition contract.
rng_end
the rng process can go through several fraud-proof cycles, each resetting the rng_response_delay timer
rng_confirm_tx %we need to store this height in sortition.
now you can make sortition_claim_txs, sortition_contract_txs, and sortition_waivers_txs
rng_confirm height + delay
it is still possible to make sortition_waiver_txs and sortition_contract txs, but not sortition_claim_txs
rng_confirm height + delay + 2nd_delay
Ray invited Ray
s
17:42
sanket
"Numerai’s breakthrough is proving that staked data is better than un-staked data"
https://www.placeholder.vc/blog/2020/4/9/erasure
This is really good example of skin in the game works on blockchain and helps build a case for prediction markets.
https://www.placeholder.vc/blog/2020/4/9/erasure
This is really good example of skin in the game works on blockchain and helps build a case for prediction markets.
Z
19:11
Zack
I wrote a review of why numerai does not work https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//other_blockchains/numerai.md
D
Z
19:51
Zack
Amoveo.
19:52
We probably stole more ideas from Bitcoin Hivemind than anyone else.
19:53
After that, Ethereum is the community we took the second most ideas from.
19:53
oh, and bitcoin
s
19:55
sanket
Is veoscan down?
Z
19:56
Zack
yeah, it has been gone for a while. but you can get the same information from other places.
NJ | 旦莎 invited NJ | 旦莎
11 April 2020
Darren invited Darren
Z
06:30
Zack
Hahaha
Checkmate blocked me. I've been Checkmated haha
Checkmate blocked me. I've been Checkmated haha
06:31
he brought it down to the fundamentals. no arguing with that. haha
DV
09:48
Denis Voskvitsov
hi guys
myveowallet.com is working again after nodes update
as well as mobile apps with default settings
myveowallet.com is working again after nodes update
as well as mobile apps with default settings
Jake invited Jake
B
s
X
18:45
X | NPC
👌
12 April 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account