Amoveo ♥🧿
3 September 2019
Z
11:45
Zack
"The mechanics of the underlying BFT consensus al-
gorithm is out of scope for the present work."

They just assume that PoS is possible, and so don't bother describing how their PoS algorithm works.
haha
D
11:52
Devender
In reply to this message
Hehe 😅
D
13:17
Devender
In reply to this message
That was quick. I saw your comment there in polkadot group.
Z
13:18
Zack
yeah, there isn't much to review
D
13:20
Devender
I don't see pro-Polkadot community members in their telegram. So not expecting anyone to fight back mathematically.
13:22
Raising an issue at GitHub (https://github.com/paritytech/polkadot) to discuss with devs can be too early I guess.
Z
13:22
Zack
Polkadot is German, right? so it is like 7:30 AM
I guess they are waking up about now and will be able to respond soon.
D
13:24
Devender
yes around 7:30 Web3j is Swiss Foundation.
Z
13:34
Zack
https://twitter.com/zack_bitcoin/status/1168758451285237761?s=20
I shared the Algorand review.
Z
14:26
Zack
I am starting to think PoS might really be impossible.

I wonder how many people have attempted to find a flaw, and then remained silent when they were unable to.

A lot of people have a vested interest in showing that PoS is possible. You would think that one of them would make an effort to defend PoS.
14:26
or at least, no one has a solution to PoS yet.
14:30
Maybe I should write a paper to collect all the different half-hearted responses I have received from each PoS community, and show how they are all different from each other, and show how each is logically inconsistent.
Š
15:01
Šea
Zack, did you find a single person in the space that agrees with your logic on this topic? or better, any serious developer ?
Z
15:06
Zack
It's not like I invented anything new. I am just consistently re-applying the principles I have learned from different projects.
For any one of the principles I use, I can point to some other developer who uses it, who I learned it from.
15:06
https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/01/28/p-epsilon-attack/
This paper is like 80% of the way to the soft fork bribery attack.
15:07
and the crab in a bucket logic, that comes from stuff Paul Sztorc has written about oracle mechanisms.
15:08
but I think someone else applied it to PoW before me as well.
A
15:14
Alfred
In reply to this message
I also think PoS is impossible and I know quite a lot of people who think the same.

There are also some academic papers that highlights some others PoS problems like kong range attacks etc

The conclusion is almost always that PoS is an inferior model
Z
15:15
Zack
long-range attacks are solvable though
ŽM
15:15
Živojin Mirić
sawed-off shotguns?
A
15:15
Alfred
Yes these are old papers
I
15:15
Instinct
In reply to this message
😂
Z
15:16
Zack
I think that my paper is like, an up to date version.
It is focused on the current unsolved problems in PoS, and this time I think I have proved that they can never be solved. So maybe this can end the debate.
ŽM
15:16
Živojin Mirić
someone could always come up with a solution
Z
15:17
Zack
if my proof is valid, then it is not possible to make a PoS. It doesn't matter how clever you are.

Like how an entropy reversing device is not physically possible. Does not matter how clever you are.
ŽM
15:18
Živojin Mirić
but maybe someone finds out that your proof is not valid
15:18
so the premise changes
Z
15:18
Zack
yes, hopefully
15:19
that is how we continue the march of human knowledge
15:19
I hope to push us forward one more step
ŽM
15:20
Živojin Mirić
Zack I am getting a feeling that maybe subconsciously you are fighting to disapprove PoS so you don't have to implement it in Amoveo as a potentially superior model?
15:20
or you want someone to prove to you that it's superior so you have to implement it
15:20
do you think that's a possibility?
Z
15:20
Zack
If I can show that a certain large space of PoS mechanisms are impossible, then that will save people from wasting their time searching that space for a valid mechanism.
It can spur creativity, so people will search in other areas that I had not even considered.
ŽM
15:20
Živojin Mirić
human mind is a marvel
Z
15:21
Zack
I want to build the cryptocurrency that will become the next global reserve currency.
I think that knowing if PoS is possible could be an important piece of knowledge to achieve this goal.
ŽM
15:22
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
I agree, that's a noble cause
Z
15:22
Zack
In reply to this message
intuitions are often misleading.
Most people can't even imagine what futarchy is capable of.
15:23
or at least, my intuition often is. I am surprised all the time.
ŽM
15:23
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
why do you regard "btc principles" as ultimate?
15:24
In reply to this message
sounds like intuition to me
15:24
and "seem like"
15:24
I like them too
15:24
so then why wouldn't some coins go against those principles
15:25
we should investigate all possibilities
15:25
as a civilization
15:28
yes you can only enter with buying with another currency
15:29
I agree with you Alfred
Z
15:32
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/the_defence_of_pos.md
Here is a collection of the arguments people have made in favor of PoS after reading my paper.

Are there any other significant arguments I forgot to include?
Z
15:50
Zack
right. can you link to someone in particular who said that?
15:56
I added a couple more sections
15:57
I don't think I can link to telegram chat from a github markdown page
15:57
I guess ill just quote him
16:08
ok, I added maximilian
16:19
the attack they are describing does involve "bribery".
but besides that, it is totally different.
I don't think this discussion relates to the attack in my paper at all.
Š
19:29
Šea
In reply to this message
i'm asking cause it's so strange that such ''flaws'' exist and
1.no one did exploit them yet (and we are talking about over 1B mcap projects)
2.none of the projects Zack warned about it cared to change their consensus mechanism
19:36
i'm actually more surprised that the attack isn't performed yet
19:36
(or im not)
19:37
''not easy'' = safe to say almost impossible
19:44
In reply to this message
yeah, i agree. the only question here is: is there actually a hole or not?
19:48
In reply to this message
btw.. since zack warned every community out there, we should expect such attacks happen very soon
19:49
considering Zack is right here, there is a common knowledge among possible exploiters that there is a flaw in every POS blockchain
ŽM
19:49
Živojin Mirić
I bet they won't
19:49
dunno why
Š
19:49
Šea
and there is a lot money to be made
19:49
we're talking bilions here
19:53
hm.. isn't it about POS being impossible?
19:53
we can agree that pow>pos
ŽM
19:55
Živojin Mirić
VEO is already PoW so why debate that?
Š
19:55
Šea
imho the only way to confirm his thesis is for an actuall attack to happen
19:55
i'm sure zack is expecting attacks soon as well
ŽM
19:55
Živojin Mirić
VEO has advantage in front of much bigger PoS projects
19:55
nothing bad with that
Š
19:56
Šea
but if they don't happen then it could look like we're just stuck in pure theory crafting for like 2 months now
ŽM
19:57
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
that's what I assumed but he isn't conciously considering it
Š
19:57
Šea
Veo is probably the safest chain to implement POS on since Zack holds like 10%?
ŽM
19:58
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
🙈
Š
19:58
Šea
we can assume he would stake it all, we can also assume he won't be susceptible to bribery
19:58
guess VEO is safe to atleast implement pow/pos
ŽM
19:58
Živojin Mirić
it is not because
19:58
you can't trust Zack
19:58
he even can't trust himself
19:59
that's the right way
19:59
we need a religion ASAP I think
19:59
current state is producing too much questions and uncertainties
Š
20:01
Šea
In reply to this message
yeah that's another pair of shoes
B
20:02
Beer
cult works great for marketing
ŽM
20:02
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
I can't lead it, only Zack can
B
20:02
Beer
remember the one ukranian dude in a basement coding verge to 5 billion cap
20:02
we need to produce a bible-like document on github
20:03
with allegories and stories for weak minds
20:03
if Christians only tried the power of futarchy Jesus would be forgotten in 10 days
20:04
because most of them wouldn't put money where their mouth is
20:04
YES
20:04
that's a good marketing angle
20:04
for certain parts of society
20:04
basically it could destroy ANYTHING you think of
20:04
because it is superior
20:05
because it lies on futarchy
20:06
I think Israel is shaking right now, paradigm shift
20:06
they couldn't predict this in religious texts
20:08
does anyone know what happened with Zack's challenge that he would attack some easy target with an attack that uses his theory on PoS weakness?
20:08
which thing?
20:08
was the attack launched?
Z
20:17
Zack
Sometimes I do realize new things when talking to peers.

It's not just about whether we will use PoS for Amoveo.
The pos idea has a lot in common with oracle mechanisms.

I am expecting to get some really nice arguments about why certain oracles cannot work, if we keep doing these debates.
20:18
Voting type oracles, like bitcoin hivemind, they are a lot like voting type PoS mechanisms.
20:27
In reply to this message
If you want to use amoveo to influence the zionism movement, then we just need a futarchy market to show the israeli people that it is in their own interest to do whatever you wanted.

I am no Israel expert, so I am not sure in which way a person might want to influence this movement, or what their goals even are, this is a rough example.

Let's say that Israeli colonists is deciding whether to give some rights to the locals, but they are afraid that the rights will be abused. The locals will use the opportunity to hurt innocent colonists.

So we could make a futarchy market that measures the correlation between whether we give these rights to Palestinians, and how many colonists get injured in attacks.
That way the Israelis could be confident that the benefits of their new policy outweigh the costs.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
21:23
Zack
I'll try to switch back to spending more time on software soon.

I have to balance my sanity as well as the goals of this project.

I have a lot more tolerance to software development than the average person, but even I need to switch tasks sometimes.
B
21:32
Ben
i don't like the cardano Paper you wrote, to high level and the Forumal you always use, does not include the Human Factor.
21:33
if i read that correct you say you can destroy cardano for roughly 700$?
21:34
if that is the statement i would like to call you out on that to prove it.
Z
21:34
Zack
In reply to this message
are there 10 000 validators in Cardano each holding equal stake?
B
21:34
Ben
i have no clue.
Z
21:35
Zack
the calculation of $666 is based on 10k validators with equal stake.
If there are less validators, the bribe could be more expensive.
B
21:35
Ben
so you did not even take the time to double check your numbers?
Z
21:35
Zack
its not about the number $700, it is about the mathematical evidence that the cost to do an attack is less than the destruction that can be done.
21:36
You can plug in different numbers to my formula if you think those estimates are inaccurate
21:36
You will find that it is always cheaper to do the attack vs how much you can destroy
B
21:38
Ben
for me it is to high level and not enough to the Real World Situation of Cardano. If your Example would lead to the conclusion for an average Crypto User that his money is at Risk, you would have made a point and put pressure on cardano.
21:38
with that review, i guess they can just igore it with any reputational harm to their project.
Z
21:39
Zack
It is politically impossible for Cardano to abandon PoS at this point. They have no choice but to ignore the paper, up until the day when someone does an exploit to fix Cardano and make it secure.
B
21:40
Ben
you started great with your first discussion with witnet , but the Cardano one and also Bitcoin are to abstract. But maybe it was your intention and i'm just not the right audience.
Hutch - Contact me @theflyinghutch0 invited Hutch - Contact me @theflyinghutch0
Z
21:49
Zack
welcome Hutch.
Hutch is a knowledgeable member of the Polkadot community who has been helping me learn about their project
Š
21:52
Šea
In reply to this message
Welcome!
21:53
first blockchain bribe, I think )
Z
21:54
Zack
In reply to this message
haha, that is great
Z
22:15
Zack
I moved the polkadot link, because it was leaked before it is ready.
22:29
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/1022368499019210752?s=20
Sometimes reality is more hilarious than fiction.
Z
22:47
Zack
great. ive got an errand to do, ill put a message there fairly soon
B
23:05
Beer
In reply to this message
Hahaha
D
23:07
Devender
In reply to this message
Lol 😂
23:12
someone already put that on 4chan
I
23:12
Instinct
In reply to this message
😂
4 September 2019
AK
00:31
A K
Can't NN already reconstruct a face from this chat?
Z
00:59
Zack
In reply to this message
I asked them about it on the telegram. lets see what happens.
01:07
I think blockchain had different eras:
1) pre-bitcoin. the cryptography era. with stuff like hash-cash.
2) post-bitcoin. the crypto-economics era.
3) bitcoin PMF with drug markets. the anarchist era.
4) entertainment era. projects that focus on entertaining their users dominate. lots of ICOs.

Next we will have the crypto-war era. Where teams start aggressively re-purposing the value in existing blockchains towards new goals.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
04:10
Zack
One major result of this PoS research is the "No-chain" section of this document https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/bitcoin.md

I think this is our best evidence yet that Amoveo's oracle works.
Z
04:29
Zack
https://twitter.com/IOHK_Charles/status/812922728403636224?s=20 looks like I actually reviewed Cardano in 2016.
Interesting that the vulnerability I am pointing out hasn't changed since then.
I
04:39
Instinct
In reply to this message
Nice archive
DG
04:40
David G.
Hmm, is doge pow too? Review?
I
05:06
Instinct
Surprised Zack isn't banned from cardaño chat yet lol
Z
05:49
Zack
futarchy markets can be used to know if a politician is lying, _and_ they can be used to prove a politician's innocence!

You can make a promise that people will believe.
ŽM
05:50
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
Wat is+???
Z
05:50
Zack
what?
ŽM
05:51
Živojin Mirić
Ok
05:52
No worries
Z
06:15
Zack
I bet if a PoS blockchain is low-valued enough, it would actually gain value from us attacking it and converting it to PoW.
06:15
just because it would be a curiosity
ŽM
06:15
Živojin Mirić
Of course
06:15
What is the ETA?
Z
06:16
Zack
they might even help us do it in that case, right?
C
06:19
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
now what I find interesting, the document he linked to has a date of July 20, 2019 😆 in a tweet from 2016
ŽM
06:22
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
It can't help with doing it but it can help with accepting it in a positive way
06:23
Because they would be aware of. It only. After it was done
Z
06:23
Zack
why would they be aware only afterwards?
06:23
we need to announce the attack widely if we want to succeed.
EA
06:50
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
😂
T
07:25
Tromp
Loll
Z
07:27
Zack
normally only like 1% of people on twitter will follow my link to read what I wrote.
But over 10% are clicking on this picture.
So we have a new plan for how to format Amoveo documentation.
MF
07:31
Mr Flintstone
lol
EA
07:34
Eric Arsenault
Memes are the way to go
JS
08:28
Jon Snow
"Ethereum is the IBM of the smart contract blockchains: it may not be the 'best' technology, but it works well enough and has amassed a distribution advantage that will be hard to overcome by its competitors."
08:29
Is Amoveo one of the Dwarfs? 😂
Z
08:47
Zack
There are no guarantees in cryptocurrency. You could easily lose everything.
D
12:43
Devender
@Zack_Attack_On_Cardano
K
16:26
K
Can’t pos just be hardforked and everyone who voted for the malicious software to be added have their coins destroyed?
ŽM
17:38
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
this right girl is very attractive, do you have the source for everyone to enjoy?
I
18:55
Instinct
Looks like a meet up in 2 days https://twitter.com/cmcal_bot/status/1169113456517230593?s=21
?
19:25
🤠Anton
In reply to this message
😆
ŽM
19:45
Živojin Mirić
I wish one could copulate with a code repository
Z
19:59
Zack
In reply to this message
By the time we organize a hard fork they could have already sold.
A hard fork like that could easily be more destructive than the attack.
Z
20:16
Zack
At least, that is the case on cardano where they can instantly sell.

The reasoning is different on blockchains where the stake is locked up. https://twitter.com/fnietom/status/1169221780898275328?s=19
MF
23:14
Mr Flintstone
nice of charles to respond
Z
23:15
Zack
In reply to this message
what response?
MF
23:15
Mr Flintstone
I was being sarcastic
23:15
in their tg
MF
23:15
Mr Flintstone
CH
Charles Hoskinson 04.09.2019 22:49:32
An amateur proposing an attack that can't happen
ŽM
23:18
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
This is personal now?
Š
23:19
Šea
Is Zack still member of that tg or banned already?
Z
23:19
Zack
im still commenting there
Š
23:19
Šea
Nice
23:19
Will follow
Z
23:29
Zack
It is pretty clear that he never opened the document to see if Ouroboros has a flaw.
Z
23:29
Zack
CH
Charles Hoskinson 04.09.2019 23:18:36
Please point out the specific proofs that are wrong
5 September 2019
Z
00:12
Zack
now they are deleting my comments on that page.
Z
00:33
Zack
People are loading an average of 5 pages each on github today.
Usually it is only like 1.5
MF
00:36
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
that sucks
MF
00:54
Mr Flintstone
idk why people are so obsessed with formality when it comes to communicating ideas. a chipmunk could scratch a proof of bitcoin being insecure on a tree and it would be just as valid as a pretty academic paper published in an esteemed journal
P
00:55
P
i really don't understand how the smartest people in crypto cannot provide a simple mathematical counter argument but instead rely on ad-hominems and mockery. how hard can it be? don't people audit their projects for such scenarios?
00:56
if Zack's argument was dumb and simple it should be quite easy to debunk
I
01:10
Instinct
In reply to this message
💯
Š
01:16
Šea
In reply to this message
Zack's argument isn't dumb. The problem is, it is based on pure math and assumption that people act like machines.
P
01:17
P
okay cool how will that swing the equation tho if that assumption is removed or reduced?
01:19
would it make sense if it's not the minimum value but a range instead?
Š
01:20
Šea
In reply to this message
If you take it out of the equation, it would mean that attacks that Zack is describing will never happen and that's why its even pointless to put so much work proving his point
P
01:21
P
can you elaborate and explain that in further detail?
01:21
give me an example
Š
01:22
Šea
Hm, are we still talking about theory that POS is impossible?
01:22
😂
P
01:23
P
i think so you're explaining me your counter argument
Š
01:23
Šea
Bribery attack etc?
P
01:23
P
sure
Š
01:24
Šea
In reply to this message
The argument is: people are not machines and it is (almost) impossible to bribe enough participatants to perform the attack
01:25
In reply to this message
So the argument is this, cold math doesn't reflect the real life
P
01:25
P
In reply to this message
that's an assumption tho
01:26
i've found that the majority of people in crypto are in it for their own selfish interest
01:26
if whatever is being performed helps their selfish interest it doesnt sound so impossible to do so
Š
01:27
Šea
In reply to this message
That case we will see attacks happening one after another very soon :)
P
01:27
P
im from an ex-soviet country and corruption is quite rampant. we are not machines yet most people take bribes (or at least used to).
01:27
the same thing is in africa and asia
01:28
we don't do it because it's nice but because it serves our selfish interests. some people get caught and get punished but that doesnt stop the entire thing
Z
01:29
Zack
In reply to this message
Money always becomes like a religion. Every aspect of human nature is programmed so that they will see someone like me, who is searching for vulnerabilities, as an enemy and threat.
P
01:29
P
In reply to this message
west is not much different either where corruption is mostly with the higher ups instead
01:30
In reply to this message
agreed. i can see this happening in a real world examples. quite often actually.
MF
01:30
Mr Flintstone
seems to me like the cost of propaganda to get people to install the full node software would be > the actual bribes, for small pos chains
Z
01:31
Zack
We have to assume that people prefer having more value than less.
We can use math to calculate the expected profit of different strategies.
So we can use math to know how the users will act in different situations.
That means security is a math problem.
I
01:32
Instinct
In reply to this message
Agree
Z
01:33
Zack
In reply to this message
It's not more than propaganda for other updates
Š
01:35
Šea
In reply to this message
Oversimplification
MF
01:35
Mr Flintstone
imagine we try to do this for nyzo. I suppose it is cheaper for the official nyzo github to push through a full node patch than any outsider
Z
01:35
Zack
In reply to this message
We want it to be impossible for the dev to steal too
01:36
Otherwise a government could threaten them
01:38
So when we model the attack, we should be able to put the dev on either side. Attack or defence. And we still want it to be secure.
I
01:39
Instinct
Most projects are still centralised from development standpoint so why will people install software from other sources?
Z
01:40
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes. Existing centralization is a big limitation of attempting this attack today.
01:41
But, the centralized leadership needs to roll back history, so we can do double spends
01:41
When they recover from the soft fork, that enables us to do a different attack
01:43
And we could use mixers, and then buy stuff. To make it too costly for them to undo history. Because it is deleting a random users funds
01:45
So probably, the centralized leadership will need to do a hard update to undo the changes, but maintaining a bunch of history in between, when the soft fork was active.
MF
01:45
Mr Flintstone
how much money would you need to attack one of these small (5 mil cap) pos chains do you think
Z
01:45
Zack
There is a formula in the paper
MF
01:45
Mr Flintstone
right, but outside the bribes
Z
01:46
Zack
About as much as hiring a dev to make a medium-small hard update to this blockchain, and I think we can jump to amoveo consensus or anything in 1 step.
01:47
Someone who wants to be a core dev, but is being blocked
01:47
This can be a good update as well
MF
01:47
Mr Flintstone
I bet you that could be funded through people betting this attack isn’t possible in amoveo channels
01:48
in fact Ben already said he’d put up 100 veo, I’m sure others would put up some as well
01:50
once we have the ability to bet on oracles that don’t exist yet it seems worthwhile to try this
I
01:57
Instinct
In reply to this message
Funny that the more decentralised it becomes, also the more vulnerable
Z
02:03
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes. Maybe that means we need to start with a big blockchain for this to work.
02:04
In reply to this message
Is there a way to hook them up directly to the bribes, so I don't have to lock up money twice?
02:04
In reply to this message
I think that bet isn't helpful anyway.
We only really need to pay the PoS validators if the attack fails
02:05
The game theory still holds if we pay conditional on failure.
02:05
Paying on success doesn't matter
MF
02:05
Mr Flintstone
who is going to hire the dev to program the update
Z
02:05
Zack
That us what the p + epsilon paper is all about
02:05
In reply to this message
Maybe we find a blockchain that would benefit from a dev having a reward
02:06
And he is currently prevented for some reason
02:06
So the whole "attack" could be a way to prove that this blockchain isn't in the control of one group of devs.
The community would be more supportive.
02:07
a good story helps a lot for propaganda
02:07
it is better if we can keep the experiments cheap, so we can do many attempts
02:18
Or maybe a friendly story isn't good, because then it doesn't seem as convincing that this is a scary attack
02:18
Haha
02:19
If we are forceably switching away from PoS, which is the vulnerability, I think that is evidence enough.
02:19
Why would the dev turn it off, unless that was how he broke in?
02:20
Also all those amoveo smart contract bribes he used must have had a purpose
02:26
with sortition chains, the cost of each bribe would be practically zero
02:26
if the bribe isn't accepted
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
08:09
Zack
Elias Koutsoupias, game theorist from Cardano responded to my email.
He says that he might have time to read my paper on Cardano and respond in 2 weeks.
Will W invited Will W
Z
13:00
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/proof_of_stake.md
I added another section to the bottom based on my discussions with Cardano's telegram
13:00
to try and make it more clear that this is the only way we can model the cost of the bribe
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Piggeldy invited Piggeldy
6 September 2019
Gatis Eglitis invited Daniel
Gatis Eglitis invited Didzis Eglitis
Z
10:30
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/the_defence_of_pos.md
Emin changed his criticism of the soft-fork-bribery-attack. He gives more details into his thought process now.
Z
11:57
Zack
Lately I feel like an investigative journalist.
D
13:19
Devender
Hehe. Zack are you working on an AI meme generator now
B
13:46
Ben
Zack, thanks for compiling the responses. Its the first time I've seen seen a compilation of such widely varying opinions on why PoS consensus works.
Z
13:47
Zack
In reply to this message
These responses are all specific to soft fork bribery attacks.
Not general explanations for why PoS works
B
13:47
Ben
Ah, thanks for clarifying.
K
14:12
Kaan
/start@EveryoneTheBot
Mika invited Mika
Deleted invited Deleted Account
A
21:41
ALGO
A
Amoveo News 06.09.2019 20:32:22
What do ratios like 8: 1, 2: 1, 1.5: 1 mean in bookmakers? How to calculate the size of the fees using these ratios?

Read more about it here: https://medium.com/amoveo/working-principles-of-prediction-markets-through-the-prism-of-a-bookmaker-23af654601e0?source=friends_link&sk=2c550ef6b4a75156f3c9bd0ae4a3a586
A
21:42
ALGO
This is a piece we composed on bookmakers in betting markets, feel free to give it a read.
A
22:14
ALGO
In reply to this message
Do you think any of the respones warrent a legitimate defense against the majority coalition bribe attack?
Z
22:23
Zack
In reply to this message
you can see in the document, I have explained why none of the proposed solutions are valid.
I
22:35
Instinct
😂👌
AK
22:36
A K
In reply to this message
You didn't add Ethereum )
Z
22:36
Zack
right
22:44
Z
23:12
Zack
looks like a 2:1 aspect ratio is ideal for making memes, so they aren't cropped in the news feed on twitter
23:14
B
23:18
Ben
maybe you want to invest 5 dollar to get that done from someone who has a sense for design
Z
23:18
Zack
you don't like my sense of design?
23:18
haha
B
23:18
Ben
you have none ;)
Z
23:22
Zack
well, I am pretty quick with photo editing.
If someone else can think of a better way to put it together, you can give me tips.
A
23:26
Axopoa
Use canva :)
23:27
You can do quick good visual for social media’s
Z
23:28
Zack
Gimp is a really great image editor. It is open source, and I can even use it off-line.
23:30
sometimes I use ImageMagick as well.
If I want to write software to automate things that are repetitive.
23:37
I am banned now. I can't see what is being typed in that channel.
23:37
I didn't know they could ban someone who isn't in the channel.
23:44
Do these PoS projects have a plan in place on what they will do if PoS is proved impossible?

or has PoS become too big to fail?
23:52
If a person's entire reputation is based on some proposition P being true, I think it becomes impossible for that person to even consider the possibility that P is false.

If the P is false, then they lose their entire reputation anyway, so there is no cost to gambling even more heavily that P will be true.
7 September 2019
Z
00:01
Zack
If a centralized alternative costs less and is more secure, why use pos?
00:05
I was thinking more like the chicago mercantile exchange, or intrade.
00:08
In reply to this message
this is built on misconceptions.
In blockchain, a mechanism that is more secure will be less expensive to use.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/trust_theory.md

If there is someone who can destroy your value, you need to pay them bribes to convince them to not do that.
And if it is cheaper or more profitable to destroy your value, then the bribes are more expensive.
00:10
hahaha
B
00:11
Ben
In reply to this message
have you a plan in placce if PoW fail for amoveo?
Z
00:13
Zack
In reply to this message
I am actively studying PoS designs, and I am studying the limits of our knowledge of how secure is PoW. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/bitcoin.md

I can't promise that Amoveo wont break.
But I can tell you that I am doing my best to have the skills to be able to quickly offer this community updates to Amoveo if any aspect of our knowledge of these things should change.
00:14
Small teams like ours actually have a far easier time adapting when the technology advances.
B
00:14
Ben
i guess they think the same out of there perspective
Z
00:15
Zack
That is part of why I try to bring ideas from different people together. If I can trigger the technology to advance, then everyone needs to re-work parts of their design. And we can do this fastest.
B
00:17
Ben
i like the intention, but as i said, your to much on a Game Theory level to spark the Interest of the most projects.
00:17
but i liked the Discuccion with the Nyzo community, that was productive.
Z
00:18
Zack
All the interest in the world doesn't matter if it is cheap to break your protocol
B
00:18
Ben
it is actually not cheap nor easy.
Z
00:18
Zack
time will tell
B
00:18
Ben
if it would, people would do it all day long.
Z
00:18
Zack
we will see
00:18
In reply to this message
the smart contract technology doesn't exist yet.
00:19
its like saying "if planes were possible, then someone would have built them already to make lots of money".
00:19
someone had to do the engineering to invent a working plane first.
B
00:20
Ben
i see your argument and you are partly right.
Z
00:20
Zack
technology is progressing, and it takes time.
Financial incentives can exist a long time before someone does the work to take the money. Because we are all doing the easy stuff first, and there is a lot more problems to work on than there are people working.
B
00:21
Ben
i don't say that your bribe theory is not working, but your 1+1 math equasion is to easy and will not be executable in Real life.
Z
00:22
Zack
The same physics that exists today, that we can use to prove that flight is possible with available materials and engine technology, that same physics math was available before anyone had built a plane.
You could have calculated that it is possible.
00:22
and such a calculation could guide innovation
00:22
towards an eventual solution
B
00:22
Ben
i don't doubt that.
Z
00:23
Zack
the calculation is only the first step. you can't say the math is wrong, just because no one has finished the final step.
B
00:23
Ben
what i saying since your first review is, your equasion is missing the human factor
Z
00:24
Zack
How do you model the cost of the bribe?
B
00:25
Ben
it is really hard, cause you have fanboys, HODL type Guys and also Inactive partys. that will all highly infuence if you are able to make an bribe attack at your calculated price or if it is possible at all
00:26
and not to forget that a high amount of people are not that active and you might fail to reach out to them at all
Z
00:26
Zack
We have to assume that people prefer owning more value instead of less.
00:28
those people who use strategies that are more profitable, they will become more common over time.
So people who have incentives other than profit will become less common.
B
00:28
Ben
im general i agree, but some of these coins are like a cult or relegion
Z
00:29
Zack
if you assume >50% altruists, then consensus is very easy.
But I am doubtful that this will hold out very far into the future.
00:37
if we use some social layer to roll back soft-forked blocks, that means we can do double-spends.
00:45
00:52
In reply to this message
don't brush this off.
If we can profitably do double spends this way, then we will do it over and over all day long forever to bleed the blockchain dry.
00:52
Eventually the attackers could make off with quite a lot of the value from the blockchain.
00:53
and every time the txs get rolled back, your money may have been deleted. it would be massively destructive.
00:54
Why mine a blockchain if the block rewards keep getting undone?
00:57
So you might think: "What if we delete the money of everyone who accepted bribes every time we roll back?"

But if that is the case, then a little bit of divisive propaganda is all it takes for the community to cannibalize half of itself.
00:58
since the difference between an soft fork attack, and a soft fork security update is a subjective matter of opinion, and not a deterministic fact we could agree upon.
00:58
It must be possible for someone to do something half-way between an attack and an update, and use propaganda to get the community to destroy part of itself.
01:00
If a minority is deleting the majority's stake, and claiming to be the "true" version, would they even win?
01:09
deleting stake that way only works if the vast majority of value is staked. But it isn't acceptable to require all the users to have hot wallets online all the time.
If most are offline, then they have delegated their stake to someone who is online.

if it is possible to bribe the person they delegate their stake to, to get him to let all that stake to be deleted, this is another way to attack the protocol. Meeting all the conditions so that we can delete stake when we roll back to prevent soft-fork-bribery attacks, if we meet all those conditions then we are necessarily opening ourselves up to this attack where you can cheaply bribe delegates to let the stake they are in charge of get deleted.
01:13
oh, if all the value of the stake is > all the value that can get stolen by rolling back, and they are online all the time, I think it ends up like Augur's level of security. Level 3.
It is expensive because you need at least half of everyone online with their money in security deposits. And we need to pay fees to convince them to keep all that money locked up and to verify blocks.

In augur each oracle is slow, so validators only come online irregularly. if we use it for consensus, then they need to stay online for every block.
01:14
I think no PoS blockchain is using that security model though.
01:15
(all money moved in one period of social consensus) * 2 < (value staked and online)
01:25
this is the same as Jae Kwon's criticism. so I will add our further discussion to that section of the paper
01:34
ive got a much better argument now:
But the game theory still holds.
If deleting 100% of everyone's value isn't enough of a consequence to stop the validators from accepting bribes, then specifically deleting the value of everyone who accepted bribes, this also is not enough a consequence.
From their perspective, both consequences are identical. So if the bribe is enough in one situation, it is enough in both.

The fact that is cheap to have people delete their money means that the blockchain is not secure. An attacker could remove stakers he dislikes from the pool to maintain his control.
01:40
nevermind, that doesn't work
PG
03:25
Pedro Gracia
Hi! May I suggest a different repository for these documents?
03:25
Really I love them, but it's a bit confussing
Z
03:25
Zack
yes, you are allowed to make suggestions like that here
PG
03:26
Pedro Gracia
"amoveo" is the main repository, isn't it?
Z
03:26
Zack
right
PG
03:27
Pedro Gracia
there are a lot of commits in "other_blockchains", it's like a out of topic
03:28
i think amoveo repository it's more valuable
Z
03:29
Zack
The people who show up to read about cryptoeconomic theory, I am hoping that they will be interested to learn about amoveo too.

I guess I could add a link from every document in a theory repository back to the main amoveo repository
PG
03:31
Pedro Gracia
I understand it, but the mix is strange, amoveo is solid and it doesn't need so many references to other blockchain projects (i guess)
03:31
I repeat it: docs are very good
Z
03:32
Zack
it's like why grocery stores have candy up front, and the food you need in the back
PG
03:32
Pedro Gracia
hahaha
03:32
good point
03:32
maybe
Z
03:33
Zack
I am optimizing more to funnel external crypto people towards Amoveo than I am to helping existing users search the docs effectively
PG
03:34
Pedro Gracia
ok, but it's a lot of work in your side too
Z
03:35
Zack
it seems like the same work to use one repository or two
03:35
if I move the docs to a new repository now, all the links all over the internet would be broken
PG
03:35
Pedro Gracia
uf, sure
Z
03:36
Zack
I think we are more likely to move the amoveo blockchain to a new repository instead of moving these docs
PG
03:37
Pedro Gracia
wow, ok
03:38
thanks Zack for this conversation
Z
03:38
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang like how chalang has its own repository.
We could separate out the gen-servers this way.
PG
03:39
Pedro Gracia
i'm studying basiccoin now
Z
03:39
Zack
cool, the erlang version?
PG
03:40
Pedro Gracia
both
03:40
I used to develop in erlang many years ago
Z
03:40
Zack
great. feel free to ask questions about the erlang one here, since it is basically the same as Amoveo
PG
03:40
Pedro Gracia
python since 1999 and erlang about 2006
03:40
thanks a lot
Z
03:41
Zack
you can dm me if you wonder about the python version, but I probably wont be as much help
PG
03:41
Pedro Gracia
ok, erlang it's better for this stuff
8 September 2019
Z
09:09
Zack
We need to be focused on delivering one good product, and not get slowed down maintaining anything extra.

I found a bug in how the central markets were working before, and it is going to take me some time to fix it.
So I am going to have to temporarily stop supporting this feature in the version of the light node on my github, and I will disable the api for it in the full node.

This will allow us to focus on p2p derivatives, and making bets in oracles that do not yet exist, which is a key usability and scalability feature we need in order to deliver some useful product as soon as possible.
9 September 2019
JT
01:38
Jehan Tremback
How can amoveo benefit from Zacks PoS attacking theories?
A
01:39
ALGO
Not sure if everyone saw this so i'll share again
A
01:39
ALGO
DV
Denis Voskvitsov 06.09.2019 00:10:14
hi guys!

We've updated myveowallet.com and desktop apps.
Download links are available at https://myveowallet.com/download, as usual.

this release contains:
— blockchain height counter
— better support for different screen/window sizes both on the web and desktop
— support for amoveo:<address>?value=<amount> links, they can be opened by the desktop app now
— minor bug fixes and improvements
A
01:40
ALGO
In reply to this message
I think the other blockchains running PoS can probably benefit more from Zack's contributions, Amoveo runs off PoW.
JT
01:41
Jehan Tremback
Can there be some attack on one of them using facilities of Amoveo
MF
01:41
Mr Flintstone
amoveo could be used to enforce the bribes
Z
01:50
Zack
In reply to this message
it is a usecase of amoveo if our smart contracts are used to make the attack possible.

We want to convert some other blockchain to use Amoveo protocol, and then merge the two blockchains into one at a fixed exchange rate, giving ourselves the better side of the deal.
01:50
that way there will be more VEO available to make contracts
McFly49 invited McFly49
Z
06:22
Zack
https://forum.wavesplatform.com/t/game-of-nodes-waves-51-attack/1506
I think that stuff about the pig is not accurate. they are just doing tests
Z
11:50
Zack
if whoever pays the biggest bribe can do a soft fork update, they can give themselves money in the soft fork to pay themselves back all the money they had bribed.
This is a failure mode. The community probably could not agree on one version of history in this case.
Z
12:55
Zack
if you google search defx:nasdaq you will see about that index related to amoveo
B
17:17
Beer
Lol
X
17:19
X | NPC
In reply to this message
Also available in TradingView
C
17:31
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
you forget with pow its very expensive to maintain an attack, so hardware availability is the least of your problems.
With pos, you can keep on attacking once you have the coins.
17:34
In reply to this message
I had to look up demurrage.
don't know how this translates into blockchain though.
a charge payable to the owner of a chartered ship on failure to load or discharge the ship within the time agreed.
17:38
don't think that removes the risk
C(
18:59
CUG (FH)
What’s the best way to find out the fairest optimal price for 1 VEO currently?
B
19:00
Beer
if you try to buy one
C(
19:03
CUG (FH)
What is it at currently or what’s the spread?
Š
19:10
Šea
Qtrade.io
A
19:15
ALGO
In reply to this message
HitBTC also is trading VEO. You can also go on the discord trading community to make an offer.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
19:23
Deleted Account
hello！
I
19:25
Instinct
In reply to this message
Qtrade most liquid
A
19:28
ALGO
In reply to this message
Welcome :)
A
19:42
ALGO
A
Amoveo News 09.09.2019 19:40:51
Throughout the previous few weeks, Zack has been on a mission to help PoS blockchains take steps to secure a critical flaw in their consensus design.

Here is a summary of his campaign: https://medium.com/amoveo/disproof-of-stake-4745ab692d6b?sk=8857d5adc45b25f969c08164c108a96c
Z
20:15
Zack
In reply to this message
I like the graphic. PoS parachute into the crocodiles.
C
22:23
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
maybe its also time to look at Amoveo's own security flaws.
the blockchain is heavily centralized with just a few big miners basicly controlling it all
22:24
there is currently 28TH mining amoveo, where 2 adresses control 18TH. That could just as wel be 1 person.
22:24
almost 65% in "2" entities
ŽM
22:27
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
Very good point
Z
22:42
Zack
Ive got a carrot and a stick to motivate people from other blockchains to teach me how their mechanisms works.
The stick is that I publish reviews to force them to clarify how their design actually works.
The carrot is that I share with them techniques I have learned in other projects which could possibly be useful to them, given what they have built already.
s
23:09
sanket
In reply to this message
This is really good way of learning by doing
C
23:24
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
Zack
Z
23:35
Zack
In reply to this message
What do you want me to do?
C
23:36
Chris 🍞
what can we do?
we can propose an algo change, but that will be a minority fork probably
Z
23:37
Zack
I looked. Hashpower is centralized. One pool is >50% hashpower almost all the time.

If we change the algorithm, then the progress we have so far towards an asic will be wasted, and no one will want to waste more asic research on us, since we have a reputation of switching.
23:38
In reply to this message
The best part is that it is free.
C
23:40
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
its deeper, its 2 adresses controlling 60%.
So theres the pool thats an issue, but also the 2 entities on their own.

I understand that it will negate some progress that you have towards an asic.
And you'd need to ask yourself, who wants to buy the asic thats in development? They must be very sure of Amoveo to invest for an asic specific for Amoveo.
This is a relative small pool of people. So even if there is an asic, the centralization part won't be removed i'm afraid.
Z
23:43
Zack
Pow mechanisms become more secure as they grow.
Pos mechanisms become less secure as they grow.
23:44
Pow probably won't be secure at all until we have Asics.
C
23:46
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
having asics doesn't make it more secure. its about who has the asics
Z
23:47
Zack
If a double spend does happen, then the exchanges are probably the ones who will pay the cost.
23:48
In reply to this message
So you are suggesting a asic manufacturer will spend $1 million+ to produce Asics that only work on one blockchain, and then immediately use them to destroy that blockchain?
23:48
Or that they will run a Bob-chain and make high fees?
C
23:51
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
well, an asic per design only does one thing. maybe not just amoveo, but it will do a single algorithm. Else its an fpga as you know.
Asic manufacturing is a risky bussenis, XMR asic -> fork GRIN asic -> fork
so yeah they will spend 1 or 10 million on the production ( if said chain is worth the risk)
I'm not saying they'll use it to destroy the chain. i'm just saying that asics wont remove the current status quo
ŽM
23:52
Živojin Mirić
why not use bitcoin algo?
23:52
steal some of them nice existing ASICs
C
23:53
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
bigger problem, as the amount of hashrate available for sha256 opens up amoveo for nicehash attacks
ŽM
23:53
Živojin Mirić
yes sry
Z
23:53
Zack
So looking at the Bob chain scenario then.
If there are multiple blockchains that have centralized leadership trying to extract rents. They will undercut each other to fight for customers.
So the cost and service to the customer ends up being about the same.

This is a different kind of decentralization which can also be used for currency.
ŽM
23:53
Živojin Mirić
just on top of my head
Z
23:55
Zack
In reply to this message
Oh, that doesn't work.
If the rent is too low, then retirement attacks look sweeter in comparison.
C
23:55
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
no problem, its not a bad idea (not fully 😆)
MF
23:56
Mr Flintstone
I don’t think anyone else uses the amoveo algo for pow
Z
23:57
Zack
I guess if amoveo failed because pow was attacked, next time I might have the Asics manufactured before the Genesis block.
23:58
Haha
10 September 2019
I
00:00
Instinct
Are asics currently being developed for Amoveo?
Z
00:00
Zack
I don't know.
But the fpga software is some progress in that direction.
00:01
As long as we are admittig to ourselves that we are not yet decentralized, we could have a white list of who is allowed to mine blocks.
So if a mining pool acts weird, we can drop them from being able to make blocks.
00:02
Sy and potato have done a good job so far.
And loloxian hasn't done anything to make us question his motives.
00:04
So even if someone has 99% of hashpower, all they can do with it is sell it to one of the mining pools on the white list
00:04
If they make a new pool and do a double spend, the most they can steal is how much is sitting in one of the exchanges
C
00:07
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
you still say pool, where i pointed out that its 2 seperate entities "controlling" it
Z
00:07
Zack
In reply to this message
@TheRealTwenteMining this part
C
00:07
Chris 🍞
how will you enforce some kind of whitelist? 😆 whitelisting ips? whitelisting adresses?
what keeps them from changing it?
00:08
In reply to this message
what about a reorg?
Z
00:08
Zack
Well, I guess we would have to add signatures to coin base txs to enforce a soft fork like this.
00:08
In reply to this message
Idk what you are talking about
C
00:09
Chris 🍞
imo, the best bet is to go GPU friendly. also has big actors, but its better then this.
although you don't claim to be centralized, you do make remarks on other chains and them being unsafe
00:14
In reply to this message
like what happend on etc, not sure if this is possible at all on Amoveo
Z
00:15
Zack
What matters is our odds of being the global reserve currency in 2040.

Are we following a path that has a chance to reach this goal? Or do we have some self-defeating mechanism that prevents this?

Whether or not amoveo is absolutely secure today, doesn't really matter.
00:20
It is important that a person who buys Veo today can be confident that they will still have it years in the future, if they don't spend it.
C
00:40
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
if thats the case, asics won't be the way to go
I
00:41
Instinct
In reply to this message
Why?
Z
00:43
Zack
His photo is a rack of gpu, right?
C
01:10
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
that doesn't mean anything, 😆 I'm mining Amoveo using an FPGA 😆
01:11
In reply to this message
thinking we'd use something as terrible as a mining device or "pow" in 2040 for this is like going to use square wheels in 2040.
it just won't happen
MF
04:55
Mr Flintstone
amoveo light nodes already use checkpointing iirc
04:56
the issue is double spends on exchanges
04:58
currently there is a rule in the full nodes ignoring reorgs > 50 blocks I believe
05:01
checkpointing just makes syncing easier. ignoring reorgs > n blocks helps protect against miners better imo
05:01
I think bch did 10 blocks or something
C
05:19
Chris 🍞
Great idea's, checkpoints and stuff.
But this still doesn't remove the problem from the equation.
The problem is an unhealthy distribution of hashrate for this algorithm. This makes Amoveo fundamentally unsafe
MF
05:41
Mr Flintstone
if you want to be safer wait more confirmations
05:42
the problem with reorg protection is twofold and maybe I’m missing more. the first is that the attacker can mine 50 blocks, then wait until honest block 50 has been mined and then in the moment release their malicious 50 blocks and cause a chain split
05:43
secondly it can cause havoc on initial sync if they are able to mine 50 blocks at low difficulty at early blocks and get them to the syncing node before it finds the honest chain, causing it to get stuck
05:45
the reality is that regardless of the current hash rate distribution on any pure pow gpu coins you can name, none of them are safe except ethereum
05:46
yet they maintain quite high market values
Azahari invited Azahari
A
17:12
ALGO
In reply to this message
Nice!
?
17:27
🤠Anton
In reply to this message
👍🏻
S
20:26
SSDD
A
Amoveo News 10.09.2019 20:02:39
This week's newsletter covers Amoveo's appearance on Nasdaq, new blog post, Zack’s opinion on why PoS-based blockchains have a critical flaw in their consensus design and much more.

Read more about it here: https://amoveo.substack.com/p/26-amoveo-on-nasdaq-disproof-of-stake
ALEX invited ALEX
21:00
Looks like a lot of major outlets covered the release, cointelegraph has a quote from Zack and a link to VEO :)
I
21:01
Instinct
In reply to this message
Nice one
Z
21:26
Zack
I guess there are a lot of people who will read "amoveo" for the first time today
PG
21:26
Pedro Gracia
sure!
21:26
No news in spanish yet
21:43
It's not a separate material, but it includes news on Amoveo
PG
21:43
Pedro Gracia
great! I'm going to publish it in meneame.net
S
21:44
SSDD
In reply to this message
🔥👍
PG
21:49
Pedro Gracia
uhm, this a mix of news. If I link to these news, they will discart the good one in the future
21:49
I'll wait until appear news about Defix in spanish
S
21:50
SSDD
👌
PG
21:50
Pedro Gracia
meneame it's very strict with duplicates (or similar news)
Enigma invited Enigma
Deleted invited Deleted Account
21:53
Deleted Account
Bullish!
21:54
VEO too the moon!
E
21:54
Enigma
Where can we buy some Veo? I check CMC and only 3 exchanges list Veo with hitbtc being one with highest volume and the volume is only $76.91..
Z
21:55
Zack
qtrade is probably best
21:55
CMC doesn't list qtrade data
21:55
https://coinpaprika.com/coin/veo-amoveo/#!exchanges
coinpaprika is better than CMC
E
21:55
Enigma
In reply to this message
Thanks Zack!
21:59
done!
I
21:59
Instinct
In reply to this message
👌
E
22:02
Enigma
In reply to this message
Is Veo an erc20 token right now or your Mainnet is out already?
Z
22:04
Zack
In reply to this message
we were never an erc20.
mainnet genesis block was launched 2 March 2018, with zero coins on it.
E
22:09
Enigma
In reply to this message
Got it.. Thanks Zach. Sorry just learned about Veo about 20 mins ago haven’t had the chance to do proper DD yet. 👍
OK
22:15
Oleg Kislitsyn
In reply to this message
You can buy VEO using telegram bot @ExchangeAmoveo_bot
S
22:16
SSDD
little veo expansion. hehehe
https://twitter.com/JimmyRagosa/status/1171395738615648256
Spike Spiegel invited Spike Spiegel
Spike Spiegel invited Camila Russo
SS
23:26
Spike Spiegel
Speaking of the devil - Camila is willing to learn more about Veo and ask questions
MF
23:32
Mr Flintstone
cool, welcome
Pierandrea invited Pierandrea
P
23:46
Pierandrea
Honestly I agree with Camila
20% of weight for 6M Marketcap?
MF
23:49
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
not the first person to be surprised lol
B
23:50
Beer
How did the nasdaq even find us
23:50
And allocate 20
Z
23:50
Zack
I think anyone who sets up the correct api and pays nasdaq a fee can create an index
MF
23:53
Mr Flintstone
Though numerai has the same cap and I would say is less liquid at the moment than veo
23:54
Gnosis is in the same ballpark at 15mn
Z
23:54
Zack
I think they haven't distributed most of the gnosis tokens. So their market cap is actually a lot higher.
JS
23:55
Jon Snow
Amoveo is the only one in this index that is not from ethereum eco system
Z
23:55
Zack
Something like 80% is in a big dev wallet
P
23:58
Pierandrea
In reply to this message
So basically Amoveo doesn't know that Nasdaq was creating a DeFi index?
23:58
I don't know how nasdaq's index works
Deleted invited Deleted Account
11 September 2019
CR
00:08
Camila Russo
In reply to this message
Hi everyone 👋
P
00:09
Pierandrea
In reply to this message
love defiant ❤️
CR
00:13
Camila Russo
Yay, thanks so much! ☺️
00:14
Deleted Account
yup, same here, I discovered Amoveo through the newsletter, thx Camila
Z
00:23
Zack
In reply to this message
Exantech is independent from me.
P
00:23
Pierandrea
Understand, is unofficial group?
Z
00:23
Zack
there is nothing official. there is no amoveo company
00:23
I just publish open source software
00:24
I can answer questions about the tech, but I don't know what exante is planning.
00:26
you can ask @ALGO94 questions about exantech and the defix index.
00:27
I think he is in charge of communication with the english audience of exantech products
A
00:31
ALGO
I'd be happy to help answer questions about the index or exan.tech for anyone who is interested for Zack
Z
00:37
Zack
feel free to ask in this channel. I am also curious about defix.
CR
00:39
Camila Russo
Hey Zack! One question, does Exante have an investment in Amoveo, or VEO?
Z
00:40
Zack
Based on how they behave, I suspect that they own a lot of veo. But I don't know if they do or not.
00:40
they keep making video interviews and newsletters and stuff
CR
00:41
Camila Russo
In reply to this message
Got it, thanks :)
T
00:53
Tromp
I would guess three big whales could be Zack, Ikigai fund and Exantech
JS
00:55
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Not from premine though, if they have veo, it would be all from mining or secondary market
00:56
In reply to this message
Again, aside from Zack, all other whales got their coin fairly from the market or mining .
T
00:56
Tromp
Yep
00:57
Zacks coins are also fairly earned
JS
00:57
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Correct, from his work (dev reward from each block mined)
Z
00:57
Zack
In reply to this message
Veo is divisible into 100 million parts.
T
00:57
Tromp
In reply to this message
Yeia 🍺
00:58
In reply to this message
I think he refers to how humans see expensive things
Z
00:59
Zack
is that the kind of investor we want though?
JS
00:59
Jon Snow
#XRParmy ? Lol
T
00:59
Tromp
Hahahahaha
MF
00:59
Mr Flintstone
maybe we should change the unit to kiloveo so it is 100k per coin
Z
00:59
Zack
For the smart contracts to work well, price stability is more important than market cap
T
00:59
Tromp
In reply to this message
Someone has to buy the top 😂
MF
01:00
Mr Flintstone
we tried to switch to mveo where 1000 mveo = 1 veo back in the day
01:00
and it didn’t work
JS
01:00
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
US investor can buy from qtrade, EU investor can buy from Gozo
B
01:01
Ben
hitbtc is currently an isolated market btw ;(
Z
01:04
Zack
https://coinpaprika.com/coin/veo-amoveo/
coinpaprika tends to be more accurate
01:04
it is probably like $6.5 million
01:05
I emailed hitbtc, hopefully they restart their node or whatever they need to do
AK
01:20
A K
Futarchy is the process respected by Amoveo community, I guess
MF
01:29
Mr Flintstone
Like I said above we tried it 1000:1 before and it didn’t stick
[
01:29
[Riki]
In reply to this message
Well, bro, dont blame the (high) coin price for not being able to buy hundreds
I
01:29
Instinct
In reply to this message
Btc says otherwise
MF
01:29
Mr Flintstone
it still isn’t even clear if it’s a good idea to do it
I
01:29
Instinct
I like how Veo stands out
mx
01:29
mr x
Goal is to be most expensive coin.
[
01:30
[Riki]
We aim to surpass berskhire hattaway price per stock
DV
01:30
Denis Voskvitsov
perhaps it would be enough if we just add an option to show wallet balance in mVEO :)
[
01:31
[Riki]
Berkshire Hathaway Inc. Class A
BRK.A (NYSE)
311,200.00USD

A bit more to go for veo
I
01:31
Instinct
In reply to this message
💪
[
01:31
[Riki]
In reply to this message
Stop being blind. We already discussed this in 2017/18 and community did not adopt it
Z
01:32
Zack
there are so many interesting aspects of Amoveo worth talking about. I think this topic is not one of them.
Š
01:33
Šea
In reply to this message
Fun times ahead Zack
[
01:33
[Riki]
Lol exactly the opposite. We use futarchy for decision making.
01:34
Do u even futarchy, bro?
Z
01:35
Zack
1/6
Š
01:35
Šea
In reply to this message
No
01:35
Its 1/6 😂
Z
01:35
Zack
16.66%
I
01:37
Instinct
In reply to this message
Lol
mx
01:37
mr x
Louboutin out. What now?
AK
01:37
A K
In reply to this message
What are you comparing against, just curious
Š
01:37
Šea
Seems 10% is a threshold we should all stick to guys
[
01:40
[Riki]
In reply to this message
Unfortunately, gifs are not allowed in this chat.
JS
01:40
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Lol I’m thinking the same
I
01:40
Instinct
Dev reward will be phased out over time through futarchy markets I guess as Amoveo becomes more decentralised
Z
01:42
Zack
Maybe someone else needs to show up who can do the same work as me, and they offer to do it for less.
01:42
making me non-essential is a critical step on the path to Amoveo's success
Š
01:49
Šea
In reply to this message
There is no one like you Zack ❤️
E
01:57
Enigma
In reply to this message
Do you mean Exante? That’s a btc fund that was launched back in 2012 with north of 70,000% returns since its inception.

Think they are releasing another fund can XAI fund which will include a number of Alts such as Eth, Etc, Xmr, Xrp and Zec.
Z
01:57
Zack
In reply to this message
yes. exantech is a part of exante.
I think defix is going to be similar to the XAI fund
E
02:03
Enigma
In reply to this message
So is Amoveo going to be included in their new XIA basket fund? Or will Amoveo be on of the Altcoins that will be included in their Defix ~ DEFX Index?
Z
02:03
Zack
amoveo is a part of DEFX
02:03
not XIA
E
02:04
Enigma
Wow! That’s awesome! I didn’t even know about Amoveo until I read the article this morning...
Z
02:25
Zack
Amoveo uses futarchy to make governance decisions about things like the size of the block reward
02:26
there is not a schedule like bitcoin
02:27
there is a bunch of governance variables. we can change the block time, or the amount of gas for smart contracts. lots of things.
MF
02:28
Mr Flintstone
thanks
02:32
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=higdjijPP1s
I made this video about futarchy.
It is different from most blockchain governance strategies.
The miners don't get to decide.
MF
02:42
Mr Flintstone
the reward used to be 1 veo per block
02:42
now it’s like 0.15
02:43
veo at one point was 10x higher than it is now lol
02:44
funny enough it was much more liquid than it is today
02:45
idk why I am even engaging tbh
Š
02:46
Šea
In reply to this message
No it was x8 from here, around 9 months ago
02:47
Means 7-8 months after its launched
Z
02:47
Zack
In reply to this message
the way to make a proposal is to make a futarchy market.
02:48
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/using_oracle.md here is documentation on how to make the oracle for such a market
02:49
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/using_governance.md Here it talks about making the futarchy smart contracts connected to that oracle
02:50
plenty of people have had good experiences with qtrade
02:50
I recommend not to use hitbtc.
mx
02:52
mr x
dude sceptisism is good but also do some research
02:53
qtrade works good for me
Z
02:55
Zack
I just heard they were offline in this chat like a couple hours ago.
They will probably get it togther within 3 or 4 days. that is about how long it usually takes once I email them.
02:56
I think they are trying to run hitbtc on a fraction of the staff they would need to provide decent service.
02:57
I can't imagine this is cost effective for them.
Every time it doesn't work, customers switch to other exchanges.
02:58
maybe it is really hard for them to hire for some reason
02:59
it is annoying that CMC decided to list hitbtc, but they don't list gozo or qtrade.
K
05:43
K
In reply to this message
Why didn’t it work?
05:43
I can’t really imagine a scenario where that for some reason doesn’t work. There’s no downside to doing that, only an upside that it might attract noob investors to pump
Z
05:45
Zack
My memory is like this.
People wasted a lot of time arguing. Then eventually this forum came to agreement to switch to mveo.
So we switched everything.
Then there was lots more arguing, until eventually the forum came to agreement to switch back.
So we switched everything back.

If we are going to do this again, I think we should have futarchy this time.
The arguments go on too long.
05:48
And I am scared someone will send 10 Veo, and they had intended to send 10 mveo
JS
05:49
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Yeah, one futarchy is worth a thousand words. Last time we wasted too much time on arguing this.
S
06:13
Sy
The point is that people use mveo but technically nothing had changed so exchanges wallets and everyone behind the scene had to adapt for something that's just fooling your stupid brain
06:14
Bitcoin isn't talking about that, neither should we but yes, do a futurachy if you think it's important
TG
06:24
Toby Ganger
😃
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
CryptoGuGu invited CryptoGuGu
Z
13:16
Zack
Masters degree is fine, but only in the hard sciences.
13:17
Haha
13:23
In reply to this message
Futarchy is how we make decisions here. Not telegram arguments.
13:24
Anyone can make changes to amoveo, as long as they follow the correct procedure.
Lukasz Jachym invited Lukasz Jachym
Z9
14:32
Zackatron 9000
>Shitty Telegram meme arguments
>Salty tone
>Unable to submit his improvements to the protocol
Submit to Master Zack's Will fudster
AK
14:45
A K
In reply to this message
how's veo fenced?
ŽM
14:46
Živojin Mirić
I think that we should do everything Loubou says
14:47
He is smart boy
B
16:24
Beer
Louboutin cant walk on high heels it seems
C
16:30
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
with minority forks you mean.
AK
16:35
A K
In reply to this message
Zack didn't dump a single veo from reward fund
16:35
It's on Blockchain, check it out
16:43
Everyone will see on a Blockchain
16:44
And any holder can do it, anyway
16:44
There are other big holders, check explorer
C
16:51
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
it is on fpga allready
16:51
65% of hashrate controlled by 1 or 2 entities
Š
16:52
Šea
So what
16:52
I don't think its any different than some other pow coins
AK
16:53
A K
In reply to this message
No, it wasn't
Š
16:53
Šea
In reply to this message
Oh! thanks for this
16:53
In reply to this message
Yeah
ŽM
16:54
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
Why are you still here then if it's dead?
Š
16:54
Šea
In reply to this message
Even btc hashrate is centralized lol
16:55
Does it make any difference if its 2 or 4 or 5 parties that control hash?
16:56
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
What's your point exactly? You come to a group, not owning any of the coin and declaring it dead. Fine, you've done your job. What else you got to say?
ŽM
17:03
Živojin Mirić
what's your motivation behind this?
17:03
you are shady
17:04
stuff you write doesn't look like "research", you use that word like it means nothing
17:05
why are you here then?
Š
17:08
Šea
In reply to this message
Then you are probably missing a lot about it
17:09
Sure😁
17:10
In reply to this message
Yeah right
17:11
The "premined" veo as you call it switched hands like a year ago
17:12
Haha
17:12
Please stay here with us
I
17:12
Instinct
😴
ŽM
17:14
Živojin Mirić
ok Lou I understand what you are writing but I don't see what's your motivation behind writing this here
17:15
you hold 0 VEO you say it's dead and a bad shady project
17:15
why are you even still here then?
Monomaly invited Monomaly
Š
17:18
Šea
he's just a good guy spending days to protect people from bad investments
G
17:36
Gonzalo
In reply to this message
😂
17:36
Keep trolling please! 😭
Z
18:47
Zack
In reply to this message
Hahaha
I think he is upset because I reviewed one of the projects he likes.
C
19:24
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
yes its a huge difference 😆
Ben invited Ben
Z
21:57
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8080/new_oracle.html
I made a user interface for generating the oracle id of an oracle that doesn't exist yet.
"generate ID"
You don't need to sync or to have veo to use it.
21:57
I need to make some small changes to the other p2p derivatives interfaces to support this new feature.
MF
21:58
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
why does a user need to use this page?
Z
21:59
Zack
this is the page for making new oracles. making the id is one step of making a new oracle.
I am not sure how is the optimal configuration for these interfaces into pages.
MF
22:00
Mr Flintstone
Sorry, I just mean the generate ID button
Z
22:00
Zack
this page already has code for accepting inputs to generate an oracle. so I didn't have to re-write or copy or abstract it or anything. I just reused it as is.
22:00
the place where you type in a start height and the question
22:01
This first version is optimized to get it in the hands of testers as quickly as possible, so we can start to think about how to organize
josep invited josep
Z
23:56
Zack
Hey guys. stop buying overpriced veo on hitbtc.
They aren't even allowing withdraws right now.
Use qtrade.
23:58
someone market-bought 37 veo to move the price from $100 to $160.
12 September 2019
A
00:13
ALGO
In reply to this message
I believe exan.tech and yourself are working to get the deposit/withdrawl feature re-enabled in full at this time.
Z
00:14
Zack
yes, I am working with hitbtc to try and get it fixed as soon as possible. as you can see, we are not the only project that is down for them right now https://hitbtc.com/system-monitor
These guys are super busy, and it will take some time.
00:16
qtrade was the first exchange to support us, they have a long and positive reputation with our community.
C
00:21
Chris 🍞
https://defix.fund
00:21
interesting!
DV
00:37
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
besides your point on the exchanges, what's wrong with the bot?
00:41
may be. there is OTC channel on project's discord anyway.
and bot works for me. do you mean it has little trade limits? or bad price?
John Smith invited John Smith
JS
01:13
Jon Snow
qtrade is also US regulated
[
01:14
[Riki]
Louboutin go sell shoes
JS
01:14
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Thanks
MF
01:18
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
lol nobody from amoveo paid hitbtc that
JS
01:19
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Who are “they”?
Š
01:20
Šea
The guy is sharing info that nobody knew about till now, and yall acting like shit.. Show Louboutin some respect
01:20
In reply to this message
Sorry dude bribe is for POS only
MF
01:31
Mr Flintstone
why are you so sure that veo is that concentrated
01:32
the rich list has exchange addresses
01:34
you can see comments next to the addresses s
Š
01:58
Šea
In reply to this message
I think its refreshing sometimes to have newbs here
01:59
If he stays long enough he will have his concerns cleared and hopefully he can behave more civilized then
Z
01:59
Zack
Some people have more colourful language than others.
I think it is good if people can feel comfortable being honest about how they feel.
Š
02:03
Šea
Why
02:04
No one gives a fuck about deleted accounts except you
02:05
🤔
Z
02:05
Zack
I think that the number of people in this telegram group is not a good indicator of how near we are to having a useful product.
DV
02:07
Denis Voskvitsov
that's true, but many investors evaluate project audience by the social media members and website traffic, and it could be quite fair metric.
Š
02:09
Šea
In reply to this message
I figure many of 20k+ telegram channels count more then 20-30% deleted accounts as well
02:10
I'd say that potential investors can think of veo still being under the radar, consider it more attractive investment
02:10
Hah😂
02:10
Yeah youre right
DV
02:11
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
I'm still not sure in that idea.
as guys said before 1 bitcoin costs 10k+ but it doesn't block ppl from buying just fractions.
MF
02:11
Mr Flintstone
it is not good if people are holding veo because the price per token is low
02:11
these kinds of holders will make veo more volatile, which makes it less suitable for investment contracts
02:13
lol
DV
02:13
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
true. one of main issues with risk hedging contracts marketplace is volatility, so you need too much tokens to hedge to make it attractive.
02:13
In reply to this message
asked myself. still not sure.
Š
02:14
Šea
😂
MF
02:14
Mr Flintstone
dude comes in here accusing us of pump and dump yet wants to decrease token price so clueless people will pump veo for him
Z
02:15
Zack
In reply to this message
hahaha
02:15
maybe he is testing us, to see if we will fall for it?
DV
02:16
Denis Voskvitsov
we need Zackatron 9000 back.
Z
02:18
Zack
None of us should consider our opinions valid, until they have the blessing of our lord futarchy.
02:19
we are all equally inept in comparison to his guidance.
02:20
there is no voting in futarchy.
Futarchy is a betting based mechanism.
DV
02:21
Denis Voskvitsov
@GloballyUniqueIdentifier you can just buy some VEO and run futarchy market by yourself from http://139.59.144.76:8080/new_oracle.html (UI is barely smooth, but still usable).
Z
02:21
Zack
well, besides making the oracle he needs to post a couple p2p derivatives
02:22
im working on the interface now so he doesn't actually have to make the oracle
02:23
we are here to help you every step of the way
02:23
to make any kind of smart contract you want
DV
02:24
Denis Voskvitsov
export private key from gear icon in top right, it will be needed to work with Zack's UI
Z
02:24
Zack
if you do it today, it is going to cost at least like 0.4 veo. but if you wait a few days, I can help you do it even with only dust
04:01
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Hey Mr Salty, be useful and make a video about setting up your smart contract.
07:07
Deleted Account
What's the trends
🅷🅾🅳🅻🅼🅰🅽 invited 🅷🅾🅳🅻🅼🅰🅽
Z
09:04
Zack
I updated the light node to support betting on oracles that do not yet exist.
but you should wait until block 82270 to use this new feature. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/forks.erl#L35

Which is like 4 days away.
09:05
the full node api had to be modified slightly, so you can't use this feature if you are connected to a full node that hasn't been updated.
09:05
http://139.59.144.76:8080/home.html
This full node has been updated.
09:20
Z
09:46
Zack
The experimental branch has been working well. it is a lot faster. I am thinking the next goal should be to merge it into master.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
13:08
Zack
the experimental branch allows for us to put the merkel trees into ram.
it fixes some memory leaks to save ram.
it uses the newer versions of some erlang dependencies.
It can be installed faster because it has more specific ubuntu dependencies.
It has the option to record extra meta data with each block, so you can use your full node like an explorer.
13:10
I merged everything from master into the experimental branch just now.
So we can merge it into master easily, and so we can see the diff clearly.

I am thinking I will delete some unused stuff from it first before we merge.
13:16
S
13:21
Sy
Yes finally, I want the meta blocks in master 😎
I
13:56
Instinct
In reply to this message
Lol
Z9
17:18
Zackatron 9000
In reply to this message
I answer the call.
17:19
I am also wondering why is anyone bowing down to someone who has no skin in the project.
17:19
Classic example of cancel culture strawmanning
17:20
Dont let the loudmouths non-participants shape the development
ŽM
17:20
Živojin Mirić
❤️
PG
18:34
Pedro Gracia
hi! Veo Wallet App for iphone is ok?
DV
18:35
Denis Voskvitsov
yep, it's working and there's bugfix update coming in couple of days
PG
18:36
Pedro Gracia
great! thanks Denis!
18:36
today KaiOS open its develper portal
Z
19:09
Zack
In reply to this message
The light node should already work on kaios phones, since it is in js.
PG
19:10
Pedro Gracia
Great!
Z
20:30
Zack
P
20:32
P
In reply to this message
Zack did you do some tours of duty with Meme Team 6 in 4chanistan by any chance?
Z
20:33
Zack
I got this one from a toki pona conlang forum
P
20:34
P
based the one you dropped @ code reviews was also quite hilarious
ŽM
20:35
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
how come you are the only one allowed to post media content here Zack? memes are mostly generated by communities
Z
20:35
Zack
In reply to this message
feel free to DM me suggestions
ŽM
20:36
Živojin Mirić
hmm
Z
20:36
Zack
I turned off pictures because we were getting too much of that kind of content.
#off-topic on discord is another place you can post this kind of content
20:40
maybe we need a marketing and memes telegram channel
P
20:40
P
In reply to this message
this
P
20:46
P
now we're talking!
ŽM
20:59
Živojin Mirić
this is good Zack, expect my contributions
Z
21:00
Zack
Great
Z
21:20
Zack
In reply to this message
sort of.
We can have a bet settle in a synthetic asset.
So if you win, then you receive an amount of veo based upon the price of bitcoin at that time. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/using_oracle.md
21:22
In reply to this message
lets get it working before we try selling it too hard.
21:23
yeah, it is an exciting use-case
21:24
it will be especially nice in combination with BTC-VEO atomic swaps.
So we could have a single wallet that you just stick BTC into, and you don't have to even know what Amoveo is, you can do betting all in BTC.
21:25
but lets get it working first, and not sell a dream
Z
23:13
Zack
haha Paul couldn't explain why the soft fork bribery attack wont work against drivechain, he had to block me from his telegram chat.
P
23:14
P
In reply to this message
Based argument
13 September 2019
KL
01:13
Karlis L
In reply to this message
if you mean - with no(small) VEO price underlying risk, then this has in fact been discussed quite a lot before. and unless there have been some big advancements that i missed, such setup is expensive for the users. especially if the event of the bet is further in the future
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amoveo/comments/bo12r6/how_to_create_a_contract_with_no_veo_risk/
Z
02:03
Zack
If you think there is 50-50 odds between whether BTC or VEO will win, then you can completely hedge your risk by owning $1 of VEO for every 1 BTC that you own.
02:03
this is a bet with 10000:1 odds.
02:03
the market thinks VEO has a 0.01% chance to beat BTC.
MF
02:08
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
the solution is shorter contract length I believe
02:08
but not all financial instruments are appropriate for veo, especially most margined ones
02:10
but for things like CFD, shorter maturity length definitely makes hedging much cheaper
KL
02:16
Karlis L
If volatility is stable and predictable then yes, but with more risky assets (a relatively new coin still under development that has not proven itself yet, khem khem) the implied volatility is still huge even for short length. And some bets you just cannot divide into short periods. But probably we should just accept it and push for usecases with short length bets until veo has low and stable volatility.
MF
02:21
Mr Flintstone
if you think implied vol is still huge for veo Over short periods I’m happy to sell you some :)
02:21
big enough to make contracts infeasible I mean
02:22
for 1 week for example
Z
02:38
Zack
If eth stops using gpu, I wonder what will happen to all that hardware
PG
02:41
Pedro Gracia
gamers will buy them...
Z
02:47
Zack
Yeah, it will be good for gamers.
Will gpu be cheaper than fpga for Amoveo?
02:47
Or does electricity alone make up the difference in hardware?
GB
02:48
Giga Byted
hey
02:49
well on GPU right now at 5c you spend around 60-70% of your revenue in power
02:49
over a FPGA, thats easily below 10%
Z
02:50
Zack
So even if the price of gpu was 0, it sounds like fpga are better?
GB
02:50
Giga Byted
over raven a BCU (FPGA) will do about 10$/day for about 50c of power
02:51
but a BCU cost a good 2500$ right now, it might be more expensive, but i do believe its worth it
02:51
over raven it will do about 300mhs of it, while it takes about 10 1080ti to get that
02:52
plus what i like with that is density of the hardware, it makes it more available to water cooling which will make your hardware last longer
02:52
its quite possible to watercool a rig of FPGA (most are) while its rare to see someone watercooling a rig of GPUs
02:53
But 10$ a day with a card and 50c of power, thats 95% profits
02:54
so if diff rise and more gpu leaves because its less profitable, fpga can stay
02:54
yeah if you pay 10-15c, its hardly possible to GPU mine
02:54
just try whattomine and set your power rate to 15c you will see
02:55
now its nearly impossible to see an FPGA not being profitable vs power expenses right now
02:55
mostly because they mine vs less efficient devices (gpus)
02:56
and its hard to believe that a coin will be secured only by FPGA, theres not that many out there compared to total of GPUs mining
02:56
BCUs was a 5,000 UNIT batch
02:56
thats comparable to 50k 1080ti in total, its a drop in the ocean
02:57
its hardly noticeable over large coins
02:57
yeah its still a very early market
02:57
slowly developping
02:58
they cant, mining is probably the only field i know where people try to mine with less efficient devices ;)
02:59
yeah i think you use fpga until the market is stable enough to see asics
02:59
its a transation device
02:59
just like GPU
02:59
at the end the goal is to be as efficient as possible
03:00
yeah well theres a finite pool of hash algos
03:01
andmost hash algos is designed to be as most efficient as possible, less cycles is better
03:02
now you can aim to be resource bound, like memory bandwidth or something
03:02
think we havent seen the final phase of asics yet
03:03
i remember back 25 years ago, you were buying coprocessors to have more power for certains apps
03:03
then it become embeded in the CPU
03:04
we could see something like that later on, it might become a commodity and gets in every piece of hardware
03:04
then we wont talk about "mining" anymore
03:04
we might talk more about "consensus chip"
03:05
contributing to secure a network
03:05
might take just a few watts but over billions of devices
03:06
i dont believe that central mining farms will survive over long term
03:07
so we go from commodity mining (CPU, then GPU) to more specialized, until one day its so stable that it gets embedded into common hardware
03:07
well at the end the mining distribution will follow power rate distribution
03:08
so if you have near free power, then yeah those might be there to stay
03:08
yeah i think we could really see some products coming from it, and lateron more devices
Z
03:24
Zack
cool, thanks for explaining the economics of mining. @Gigabyted
I guess we can avoid gpu as long as we are small, even if eth stops using gpu.
But if we grow very quickly, we can outpace the entire market of fpga, and then gpu will start being more significant.
03:25
seems like unifying with other blockchains is a more efficient way to grow, in comparison to increasing the block reward.
B
04:28
Beer
In reply to this message
whats it called
04:29
awesome
04:29
thanks
04:29
in construction industry. was thinking about this for a while
GB
04:30
Giga Byted
you better do it yourself, i wouldnt buy a computing heater that runs over GPUs or CPUs
04:30
i would aim for asic only if i were you
04:30
i remember seeing a company that did water heater with asics
04:31
but if its possible, i would try to check if those asics can be replaced with more efficient one as they get release
04:31
i know a guy that have a alot of FPGA and will use his pool to cool down the cards
B
04:31
Beer
yeah exactly
GB
04:32
Giga Byted
i was thinking about it for my hottub too
04:32
but its too cold in winter, the tube would probgably froze
04:33
plus a hottub heater is more powerfull than my current mining power, so it wouldnt work anyways
Z
04:46
Zack
physically speaking, I am pretty sure if your miner is temperature H1 in kelvin, instead of H2, then it can mine H2/H1 faster.
So if it is colder, it is faster.

I doubt the chips are designed to follow physical limitations though.
GB
04:56
Giga Byted
Well i would never expose the cards to sub zero temp of course, but what i was worried was the tuber freezing and the flow stopping
04:57
exposing the cards themselves below 0 could create condensation if you dont control humidity
04:57
which is pretty high near a hottub
04:57
but those fpga chips themselves could pretty well endure those cold temp, they are designed for space
Z
04:59
Zack
can you get them down to like 10 kelvin and then have them run 20x faster than normal?
04:59
I guess if they ran that fast, they would make 20x more heat than normal
GB
04:59
Giga Byted
well the issue aint really the fpga itself, its inductors
04:59
my chip over watercool runs at 40C, inductors runs at 80C (air cool)
05:00
i believe if you could keep those low enough, you could reach very high performance
05:01
those are stronger than BCU, they can take 300A : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm1zWlWiHs8
05:01
those are about 5500-6000$ each
05:02
provide about 1.5-2x speed over the BCUs
05:02
they produced only 200 i believe
05:02
they w atercool the inductors
05:10
that terabox with 8 of these in it is pretty insane
05:10
considering that each of those do about 15-20 1080ti in general
05:11
so its like 120-160 1080ti in a single box :)
05:11
2x stronger than a F1 amazon instance
05:11
which you can rent for about 13$/hour
05:12
password bruteforce would be insane over this :)
05:14
i believe it does about 27GHS of SHA3
05:16
so it could break a pwd of 64 chars complexity of a lenght of 10 chars in less than 2 months
05:17
and 52 chars (case sensitive alphanumeric) in about a week
Z
05:19
Zack
Wow, passwords need to be so long now
GB
05:19
Giga Byted
you need passphrase now
05:21
i wonder how many sha1 these could do
05:21
it must be insane
Z
05:21
Zack
52 characters is like 52 bytes though.
And 256 bits is 32 bytes is secure.
GB
05:21
Giga Byted
a single 1080ti does about 4.5ghs of SHA1
Z
05:21
Zack
Maybe you meant 52 bits?
GB
05:22
Giga Byted
yeah even a simple passphrase can be pretty solid, but it needs to be pretty long because of dictionnary attacks
05:22
i didnt said 52 chars, i said a charset of 52
05:22
lenght was 10 chars
05:24
so 52^10 possibilities, when 8 of those cards can do about 216*2^30 (216ghs)
05:24
log(52^10)/log(2) gives about 57 bits
05:26
so if you do 216ghs this takes about 623k seconds to break
05:26
which is about 7.2 days
Z
05:26
Zack
Oh right. I get it
GB
05:26
Giga Byted
and thats SHA3
05:27
bitmain could do very efficient sha256 bruteforce
05:28
doing dozens of ths per seconds
05:28
of course it would cost a few millions to get a batch designed and produced
05:29
but those could break anything, even 14 lenght of a 64 charset
05:29
password are dead
05:29
think of it, a antminer S17 does 56ths of sha256d
05:30
and its 2 rounds of sha256
05:30
so that thing could do at least 100ths per sec over single sha256 round
05:32
thats about 46 bits in 1 second
05:32
a 52charset of 10 chars is 52 bits :)
05:33
so it breaks this in less than a minute
05:33
now think about a small batch like 5k of those
05:34
5k of these would be able to do 59 bits per seconds
05:38
a big fat password of 14 chars with full complexity (charset of 64) would be 84 bits
05:39
yeah that would be expensive to break, about a year :)
Z
05:39
Zack
https://xkcd.com/936/
GB
05:40
Giga Byted
im amazed by the power that is out there
05:41
and yet my bank ask me for a 6 digits code :)
05:42
i remember as a kid , there was a lock over a location that we wanted to get into, it was full of arcade machine and it was just locked permanently abandonned, but it had power
05:42
the lock had 4 series of 10 numbers
05:43
so 0...9999
05:43
it took us weeks and we got in :)
05:45
i wonder if NSA has asic brute machine like those
05:45
5k batch doesnt seem too expensive for them
05:51
md5 is about 8 times faster, so removes 3 bits of entropy
05:53
still far from doing every possibility in 128 bits even in md5
G
06:19
Gonzalo
In reply to this message
So nice team work 😄
06:21
In reply to this message
I guess second and next times would be faster if you generate rainbow tables first?
GB
06:31
Giga Byted
yeah probably, i wonder how those could be used with an asic thou
06:31
might be faster without, hard to tell, that is all theorical
06:32
but seeing asics being able to do crypto at this speed, means passwords are in deep trouble
Z
07:39
Zack
just use "correct horse battery staple"
works every time.
09:24
I condensed the explanation of market failure down to a 5 minute video
P
13:46
P
In reply to this message
They use rainbow tables instead
PG
13:46
Pedro Gracia
is there source code for FPGAs?
M
14:16
Minieep21
I get the brute force idea and that it's getting easier as parts get more powerful and cheaper
14:17
But aren't most services looking out for this and have a cool down after several incorrect attempts?
Z
17:40
Zack
In reply to this message
I think not. The fpga code is set up to automatically pay the author a reward.
So he doesn't want us to be able to modify the source.
17:41
In reply to this message
In decentralized systems, it isn't always possible to keep the hash a secret.
17:41
In reply to this message
No.
PG
17:54
Pedro Gracia
In reply to this message
Uhm, I'll try to work this with my little FPGA. I haven't problem doing it with an open source license
AK
17:59
Alexey Kanakhin
In reply to this message
Dev fee is not on FPGA side. It is hardcoded into host executable.
18:02
In reply to this message
It is bad idea. Network difficulty is so high now, that you will never reach out amout of veo by mining on this FPGA, that you can get from pool.
Z
18:02
Zack
Most people use their fpga to mine in a pool
AK
18:03
Alexey Kanakhin
In reply to this message
BCU1525? It is one of the larges FPGA boards.
Z
18:04
Zack
Running a full node is work. You need to do updates sometimes. It is a lot easier to just point your fpga at one of the existing pools.
18:04
I don't want to do it for profit really
Z
18:05
Zack
That miner is for bitcoin.
Bitcoin and amoveo have non-compatible mining algorithms
18:05
You cannot use bitcoin asic to mine amoveo
PG
18:06
Pedro Gracia
I know it, It's only to get a reference
AK
18:06
Alexey Kanakhin
In reply to this message
My point is that hashrate of little FPGA is so low, that reach out 0.1 veo (minimum payout of amoveopool) is not possible.
PG
18:06
Pedro Gracia
I think I can do it from scratch
AK
18:07
Alexey Kanakhin
In reply to this message
Actually single SHA256 is not very hard to implement. So it may be good practice for you in HDL design.
Z
18:08
Zack
In reply to this message
$10 takes too long?
$2080 of Veo are found every day.
How many fpga boards are mining in amoveo currently? It's got to be less than 1000 right?
So each board is over $2 per day?
18:10
https://github.com/dedmarozz
Here is existing fpga software
18:12
Looks like one board is 25 gh.
And full network is like 37k gigahashes.
So around 1500 fpga for the entire network.
And each one is giving over $1 per day.
So about 1 week to get your $10 minimum to withdraw from the pool.
AK
18:15
Alexey Kanakhin
In reply to this message
This FPGA board costs about $5000, not very good investment, huh?
18:17
There are plenty of development boards with much cheaper and much smaller FPGAs (compared to boards, mentioned by you). But the hashrate that you can get from them is about 500 times lower.
Z
18:21
Zack
Managing 500x more hardware isn't cost effective.
500x more water cooling systems
18:23
In reply to this message
800 fpga * at least $3000 per board.
$2 400 000 of hardware to control >50%
18:23
Renting fpga is probably cheaper
18:24
Oh, you need 1500 not 800.
So more like $5 million
AK
18:25
Alexey Kanakhin
In reply to this message
Amazon AWS F1 is about $6.1/Hour for 200 GH/s
Z
18:26
Zack
In reply to this message
You can rent for Veo on nice hash? Are you sure?
18:27
In reply to this message
Can you rent 200 at the same time and attack the network for $1200 an hour?
18:27
In reply to this message
A lot of people told me that you cannot do this.
AK
18:28
Alexey Kanakhin
In reply to this message
200 GH/s is 8 FPGA with 25 GH/s. It is one instance. f1.16xlarge