12 August 2019
Š
23:02
Šea
I was almost sure you are team member already 😁
S
23:03
Scrypte
Zack yes i shared that paper, cause i think you opinion on it matter 😂
Z
23:04
Zack
The zano white paper is very high quality. Possibly the best technical document that I have seen in the crypto space. It is especially impressive considering the author isn't a native English speaker.

I haven't finished reviewing it yet, but I think I have a reason it won't work.
The problem is that the validators can purposefully de anonymize themselves if they choose to.
And if there is a bribe, it will be in their interest to de anonymize themselves.
23:05
I hope that someday I too will be able to write such high quality documentation.
S
23:05
Scrypte
I see, I will share with CZ to know more about this, also thanks a lot for taking time
Z
23:06
Zack
maybe wait another couple hours. I will write up a better review.
23:06
this is just a small preview
23:07
https://zano.org/downloads/zano_wp.pdf Here is the paper if anyone wants to follow along.
S
23:09
Scrypte
Btw feel free to contact CZ if you have questions, i can get you guys in touch
Z
23:09
Zack
thanks :)
A
23:10
Alfred
Cool I wanted to see that review happen as well :)
23:11
In reply to this message
I assume you're zScrypte on zano discord?
S
23:12
Scrypte
Yes lol
Š
23:13
Šea
In reply to this message
+1
A
23:15
Alfred
In reply to this message
You tried latex yet?
23:15
Overleaf is a pretty nice tool to write and share papers (https://www.overleaf.com/)
Giga Byted invited Giga Byted
A
23:19
Alfred
In reply to this message
👀
GB
23:19
Giga Byted
hey there! :)
23:19
heard some people were speaking over zano in here :)
23:19
was curious
Š
23:23
Šea
Only Zack speaks here, we listen 😜
GB
23:25
Giga Byted
i rather listen than speak anyways, so its all good for me, when smart people talks, i listen!
Z
23:25
Zack
In reply to this message
yes, I have used latex.
It has lots of advantages.
that the math formula can be beautiful
You can move pictures around without ruining the text.

But it has one big disadvantage.
It makes people less willing to submit pull requests to fix mistakes.
Not everyone knows how to write latex. it is a barrier of entry to people who want to participate.
GB
23:26
Giga Byted
especialy when they review project that i care about :)
Jed invited Jed
GB
23:27
Giga Byted
lol jed now on
23:27
the whole zano discord will get in here
Š
23:27
Šea
In reply to this message
Did you talk about amoveo in your last sentence?
J
23:27
Jed
shhh
Š
23:27
Šea
😁
Z
23:31
Zack
another problem with latex is that if we are having lots of pdfs in the github, then you can't do text search to find the document that you are interested in.

with md text files, github lets you search the entire repository.
23:32
it is also more time consuming to re-compile latex files in comparison to editing md text files.
GB
23:35
Giga Byted
github have no modules to search into pdf?
A
23:38
Alfred
In reply to this message
makes sense
13 August 2019
Z
00:36
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/zano.md

I wrote the economics half of the attack first, next I will write the cryptography half.
S
00:49
Scrypte
Thanks!!
00:50
Andrey is looking at it :)
Z
00:51
Zack
ok, I pushed the cryptography half of the review
00:53
just refresh the page to see it.
S
00:53
Scrypte
In your first review, what do you mean by "The cost to take the mojority control of the PoS portion is cheap, because of market failure in voting systems"?
Z
00:53
Zack
that is proved in the cryptography half I just added
S
00:54
Scrypte
👍
Z
00:55
Zack
the economics half is the 2nd part of the proof. I wrote it out of order.
It was because I am so interested in their fork choice rule.
It seems a lot more secure than any other pow/pos fork choice rule i have looked at.

controlling 2/3rds of PoS is only giving a 10% advantage to your PoW mining.
J
00:56
Jed
how is it "cheap" to take control of 2/3rds of the pos on a coin worth millions of $$ ?
Z
00:58
Zack
it is cheap to bribe the people who own the coins.
J
01:02
Jed
maybe, maybe not...but i see your point tho.
S
01:11
Scrypte
Zack what do you think about contacting Andrey directly? You guys are both very technical and could have a very nice conversation ;)
Z
01:13
Zack
sure, i am happy to talk to him
J
01:15
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
👌🏻
Š
01:16
Šea
In reply to this message
I would like to see the conversartion. CZ wouldnt like to join here i guess?
01:17
Oh i see you in Zano discord Zack
Z
01:17
Zack
the first part of the conversation might be a little sensitive. He is probably emotionally invested.
I will start with a DM to see how he reacts.
S
01:17
Scrypte
😂
A
01:17
Alfred
In reply to this message
+1
Z
01:18
Zack
using a 5th order polynomial as a fork choice rule makes the math more challenging, it is fun.
GB
01:33
Giga Byted
i love people that loves challenges :)
Z
01:36
Zack
looks like an attacker with 90% of the stake only needs 5% of the hashpower to take over.
S
01:36
Scrypte
Hmmm
01:37
But at this point he's taking over his own wallet 😂
Š
01:38
Šea
In reply to this message
Indeed, i'm not sure if that case is even worth considering 🤔
F
01:38
Fića
In reply to this message
So as i see it your saying people interaction with the tech is the fundamental issue. Did you count in diversity of higher numbers of people? the fact that you simply wont be able to bribe some individuals? A lot of people staking have honest interests in a specific project.
Perhaps your point of view doesnt count in the huge complexity of organizing larger groups of people to do pretty much anything effectively.
Z
01:39
Zack
In reply to this message
he doesn't own any of the stake. he is just bribing 90% of the stakeholders.
Š
01:41
Šea
"JUST bribing 90% of stake holders"?
S
01:41
Scrypte
Thatd be knowing the identity of 90% of the network members too
01:42
Seems fairly improbable
01:42
Even in a non-private network
F
01:45
Fića
So your bribing a person to take over his funds. If you put it like that you would need to include some fraud here. Do not see how would someone help a third party take over his funds
GB
01:45
Giga Byted
and all this bribing needs to be done "secretly", if a single bribe target is honest and release it publicly you can bet the markets will protect themselves
I
01:46
Instinct
In reply to this message
Yes I'm unsure how this would work as you wouldn't advertise it as a public bribe lol & would be difficult to reach out to majority in private
GB
01:46
Giga Byted
so if the distribution is good, it could get very hard to reach a high % of it
01:47
now if distribution is bad, then no matter how good the PoS tech is, a few actors could collude against the network, then issue aint the tech but the distribution
Z
01:55
Zack
In reply to this message
Why would you need to know their identities?
01:56
In reply to this message
False. All the bribes can be done publicly.
01:56
In reply to this message
You would make it a public bribe.
I
01:56
Instinct
🤔
GB
01:56
Giga Byted
publicly? then people would know that someone is trying to get a majority of the network?
Z
01:57
Zack
In reply to this message
The more distributed, the cheaper the cost to bribe.

The entire bribe costs about as much as how much stake the average validator had.
GB
01:57
Giga Byted
wouldnt they react to it and markets would be more cautious because of it?
Z
01:57
Zack
In reply to this message
If only a couple people own most of the stake, then it would be very expensive to bribe them.
01:58
In reply to this message
Yes.
It could be advertised as an important security patch to make the network better.
GB
01:58
Giga Byted
but the sum to own a certain % would probably be the same no?
01:59
owing 40% by bribing 4 people of 10% or 40 people of 1% would probably cost the same at the end, dont you think so?
Z
01:59
Zack
In reply to this message
I'm not sure what you are asking.
GB
01:59
Giga Byted
or you exect it to cost more since people are more aware that it could be use badly
02:00
well if its known that an individual is bribing people in order to get a large % of stake, wouldnt the price of that attack increase exponentially with the % acquired?
Z
02:00
Zack
In reply to this message
The cost to bribe someone is on the order of (the value of their stake)/(total number of stakers).

So if there are 100 stakers, eah with $1000 of stake, I only need to pay $10 each to bribe them all.
GB
02:00
Giga Byted
and at a certain point some exchange could also freeze markets because of the risk of an double spend upon them
Z
02:01
Zack
In reply to this message
No, actually the opposite.
When the attacker wins, he will punish everyone who didn't help him.
So it gets cheaper to pay bribes if more people have accepted bribes.
02:02
In reply to this message
Sure. That is another reason these attacks are destructive.
GB
02:03
Giga Byted
But bribing holders to get a large % of the staking is true for every single PoS no?
02:03
no matter the type of implementation?
ŽM
02:03
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
People aren't machines, you can't just think it will work as simple as that
02:04
Is there something I missed, you are talking about contacting and bribing a bunch of people for a fixed price?
I
02:04
Instinct
In reply to this message
It would also advertise the bribe amount?
GB
02:05
Giga Byted
i have often tried to buy some coins for OTC trades and just trying to find whos the holders aint always easy
02:07
In reply to this message
People with bad strategy will keep losing money to people with good strategy.
It is an evolutionary process that eventually results in all the participants using highly rational strategies.
02:07
In reply to this message
Yes.
I am thinking the bribe is combined with an alternative version of the software for them to run.
ŽM
02:07
Živojin Mirić
Ok but that's really unrealistic in current state of human evolution, you are getting way ahead of yourself here
GB
02:08
Giga Byted
for now im reassure since you seem to say that the current flaws over your review is the people, and like every single tech, people are (and will always be) the weakest link from a security stand point
S
02:08
Scrypte
I think it's like bribing all shop owners to not sell ketchup to someonr so you can make him taste another brand, you need about 90% of the owners to agree so he can't get the ketchup, but at the same time shop owners have incentive to sell ketchup, and when the news get known some ebay seller will rise the price of the ketchup anonymously to try making some quick bucks.
Z
02:08
Zack
In reply to this message
Just publish the attack software open source. The validators will download it to start accepting bribes. You don't even have to know who they are.
ŽM
02:08
Živojin Mirić
So it's a surprise bribe?
GB
02:09
Giga Byted
you are right, didnt see it this way
02:09
but theres a good chance that exchanges will probably react to this risk
Z
02:09
Zack
In reply to this message
The fundamental assumption of cryptoeconomics is that, everything else held equal, people prefer owning more money instead of less.
GB
02:10
Giga Byted
so even if theres no attack, the only fact that theres a tool out there for it could lead to some damage to its valuation
Z
02:10
Zack
In reply to this message
It's not genetic evolution.
Haha

It is the evolution of human behaviour.
People who lose all their money are no longer participating.

People look to see who has a good strategy, they copy strategy from each other.
02:12
In reply to this message
When exchanges react, that just increases the damage of the attack.
ŽM
02:12
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
I wasn't talking about growing a fifth limb... You are looking at people as some machine learning hive and crypto space and investors are not even close to that
S
02:13
Scrypte
In reply to this message
+1 on this one
ŽM
02:13
Živojin Mirić
Is it like some kind of hack or? I feel like I'm missing something :D
B
02:13
Ben
no it is not
02:14
it is all unproven theory
ŽM
02:14
Živojin Mirić
Do bribed holders know they are taking a bribe?
02:14
To allow someone financial gain?
B
02:15
Ben
i see little chance of success, quite hard to orchestrate and all coins have fanboys, if you try to bribe one of those the will act against you.
Z
02:16
Zack
The difference between being a dev for a blockchain and being an attacker of a blockchain is really a matter of perspective.

Some people can look at an update and think it is a good update from a helpful dev. Others think it is a destructive update from an attacker.

As long as updates are hard forks, then everyone is participating voluntarily.

But devs often use soft forks to update.
I have updated amoveo with soft forks on multiple occasions.
When that happens, most users never even realize that the consensus rules changed.
J
02:16
Jed
yeah i think its safe to say it definitely a theory, while this all may be possible ...i see no way that this would be cheaper or easier to do vs renting a bunch of mining hash and doing a 51% on a pow coin
B
02:17
Ben
i'm not questioning soft/hardfork theory.
02:17
to get to that point to be in charge of 51% is the hard part.
02:17
and i question that it is that easy as you assume it is
Z
02:18
Zack
In pow, yes.

In pos, it is cheap for anyone to bribe validators and push through destructive soft forks.
ŽM
02:19
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
It's cheap in your theory in real life it seems like a really slim chance to happen
Š
02:19
Šea
Not sure i got it all right, but it kinda reminds me on "Vitalik sending eth back" sheme
ŽM
02:19
Živojin Mirić
Bribing is dependant on so many human factors and you take for granted it's a simple formula
Z
02:20
Zack
Humans prefer having more money instead of less.
So this is a math problem.
B
02:20
Ben
if it is that easy in POS, how about a orcale if you manage to push a soft fork to a mid range POS chain you win if not i win ;)
ŽM
02:20
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
lol
GB
02:20
Giga Byted
it seems to me that at this point we are no longer reviwing a specific PoS design, but more into the evaluation of socialogy and more general voting systems
ŽM
02:20
Živojin Mirić
Try to test bribe 10 people
Z
02:21
Zack
In reply to this message
Sounds like fun.
Let's try to do a non-destructive soft update to a pos system.

I want to write "amoveo" inside all their blocks.
B
02:21
Ben
i'm up to it. i bet you cannot ;)
GB
02:21
Giga Byted
i guess that theres plenty of very good studies over these since to some extent or democratic system is based over these mecanisms
I
02:21
Instinct
In reply to this message
👀
B
02:22
Ben
and if you mange to do it, printing amoveo in the blocks would be NUTS :P
02:22
that would be an earthquake to crypto space
A
02:22
Alfred
Should we make an amoveo bet about the success of this attack?
02:23
:)
Z
02:23
Zack
In reply to this message
"Game theory" and "mechanism design" and "economics" are things you can Google to get some historical background about this sort of thing
02:23
In reply to this message
Haha
GB
02:24
Giga Byted
yeah i probably dont have the skills/time to dig into that and even less the personal interests for it (sadly we all need to make choices over our time). But im deeply interested over zano pos if it has anything specificly related to it (other than general pos and human nature_
02:25
But im surely fascinated by the way you approach things, thats for sure
02:25
just for that ill spend a bit of my time reading your thoughts :)
Z
02:25
Zack
So, we want to identify a PoS blockchain that has it's money split up between the largest number of different validators. That is the cheapest one to attack.
A
02:25
Alfred
In reply to this message
worth it tbh
GB
02:25
Giga Byted
so lets say you successufly bribe my attention here, for very cheap
B
02:25
Ben
that is also the hardest one to attack,so fair traget
Z
02:26
Zack
https://vitalik.ca/files/intro_cryptoeconomics.pdf Vitalik wrote this introduction to how to do cryptoeconomics
02:27
ideally it should be a blockchain with software that I can read and edit.
MF
02:28
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
this would be amazing
ŽM
02:28
Živojin Mirić
You should record your actions so it can be used later in favor of Amoveo
MF
02:29
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
how much? maybe you indirectly fund the bribes :)
Z
02:29
Zack
In reply to this message
👍
B
02:32
Ben
In reply to this message
any amount up to 100 Veo
MF
02:32
Mr Flintstone
nice
B
02:33
Ben
if you want to have it symbolic 1 veo but if zack want an incetive we can go with more.
MF
02:33
Mr Flintstone
this might be the best DAC style market we’ve come up with yet
A
02:33
Alfred
In reply to this message
shit's getting real real quick over here ahah
B
02:35
Ben
as long as it is an fair bet im in and put my money where my mouth is ;)
MF
02:36
Mr Flintstone
anyone else want to insure against the possibility of successfully bribing another pos chain to write amoveo in their blocks?
A
02:37
Alfred
I might throw some at such a bet
B
02:37
Ben
maybe we should wait until exan.tech release the new wallet, that would expose it to a whole new audience
S
02:37
Scrypte
How much is a VEO now?
B
02:37
Ben
50$ roughly
A
02:38
Alfred
In reply to this message
^
02:38
Zack now that would be better than a giveaway :)
B
02:38
Ben
the new Wallet is supposed to get out this week
02:39
actually on 15. august if i'm bot wrong.
Z
02:39
Zack
How do we identify which PoS blockchain has the stake split between the most validators?
MF
02:39
Mr Flintstone
are there any that started as pow and are now pos?
B
02:39
Ben
thru BE, rich list
MF
02:40
Mr Flintstone
fair mined pow? Or small premine
B
02:40
Ben
we should take top10 POS coins
MF
02:40
Mr Flintstone
I don’t trust the distribution of a coin starting with 100% premine from ico that had no pow phase
S
02:41
Scrypte
Lets go on DASH
B
02:41
Ben
das ist still POW
02:41
dash
S
02:41
Scrypte
Fuck
A
02:41
Alfred
In reply to this message
evan has all the masternodes :')
Š
02:42
Šea
What about komodo? Has another layer as well? Maybe even more easier to attack (or harder)?
B
02:42
Ben
komodo has notarization it is not POS
Š
02:42
Šea
Ah, good
B
02:42
Ben
at least not in the classic way
Š
02:42
Šea
Yeah
02:42
Its dpos right?
MF
02:42
Mr Flintstone
just because rich list has good distribution doesn’t mean 1 person doesn’t control multiple validators, so that impacts the game theory math right
B
02:43
Ben
not from my perspective
Š
02:43
Šea
In reply to this message
You are right but, whats the better way to assess the distribution?
B
02:44
Ben
there are not really a lot of ways, beside doing a manual assesment
Š
02:44
Šea
Yeah so i would stay with your suggestion here
B
02:45
Ben
you could take another beacon indicator like size of Community/Telegram/Discord + was there some Airdrop
A
02:45
Alfred
Peercoin?
02:45
probably the best target
Z
02:45
Zack
Dpos and pos are vulnerable the same way.
If anything dpos is probably cheaper to attack.
MF
02:45
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
I suggested some filters
B
02:45
Ben
dops is a LOT more easy
02:45
DPOS
02:46
because it is more centralized
02:46
due to the 101 delegates.
02:46
you only have to bribe the top delegates.
Z
02:46
Zack
The attack is cheaper if the number of validators is higher
B
02:46
Ben
so i would prefere POS chains
Š
02:46
Šea
In reply to this message
Zack says its exactly the opposite
Z
02:46
Zack
The richest validators are the most expensive.
Better to bribe the poorest.
A
02:47
Alfred
Peercoin has quite a fair distribution and for a long time so that could be a good one
B
02:47
Ben
zack only thinks about math, i think about the human Factor
02:47
thats why we have diffrent opinion
Z
02:47
Zack
In dpos, the attack could involve creating a new validator and bribing everyone to choose us.
B
02:47
Ben
which makes it so interesting.
F
02:48
Fića
In reply to this message
Yes but people also have a need to preserve their own wealth. So i strongly believe you would have to have a fraud element to get people to take bribe that would basically have an direct negative impact on their “investment”
B
02:48
Ben
indeed. DPOS has actually a bribe system implemented
02:48
thats why it is too easy
Z
02:48
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes, we should look into peer coin.

But we would probably need help from a c++ dev, I don't have those skills.
A
02:49
Alfred
If it's only basic modification I might help but I'm not proficient
Z
02:50
Zack
Well, first step let's identify who to attack. Then I will describe what code to change. Then we will find someone who can do it.
B
02:50
Ben
lets look in some chains
02:53
cardano is the biggest POS Chain i guess
F
02:53
Fića
So does high dispersion of coins help?
Š
02:53
Šea
Or eos?
Z
02:54
Zack
In reply to this message
High dispersion of validator stake helps.
If coins are validator stake, then yes.
F
02:54
Fića
Maybe setup a few guidelines what to look for. Im sure the power of the community will do the rest and we will soon have a perfect match
B
02:55
Ben
cardano stats: Cardano hast 4030 active adresses
02:56
could be a good targer
A
02:57
Alfred
I just need to know which coin to attack so I can start buying and get paid a bribe by zack :')
MF
02:58
Mr Flintstone
if it costs 1% of the network to bribe validators, I think massive market cap coins are out of the picture unless I’m misunderstanding the logic
B
02:59
Ben
In reply to this message
that would validate that POS chains are secure as long as they have a huge market cap
MF
03:00
Mr Flintstone
only because amoveo is only like 5 million in cap tho
B
03:00
Ben
so i think it is important to have a well sized.
03:00
that has nothing to do with amoveo
MF
03:00
Mr Flintstone
veo is used to Trustlessly bribe iirc
03:01
I guess you could write the logic into an ethereum smart contract but veo oracles are more easily programmable
B
03:01
Ben
which would then proof that POS is secure since Amoveo cannot host that attack.
03:01
you see that a lot of obstacle wainting down that road.
MF
03:01
Mr Flintstone
nah, if you can write a light node of the attacked chain in solidity you can have the same security for your bribe
03:02
I believe
B
03:02
Ben
and that is what i'm saying. Game theory vs. reality is a diffrent ballgame
03:02
honestly idc i bet against it, how you do it in the end is up2you
Z
03:03
Zack
In reply to this message
lets say 20% of their network is locked up as stake.
And that there are 1000 validators.
Then the total cost of the bribe would be 0.02% of the market cap.
So a $100 million market cap -> $20 000 in bribes to break it.
03:04
i have a feeling that if we write "Amoveo" in another blockchain this way, it would increase the price of VEO.
So maybe we can use a DAC to fund the bribes.
03:12
we only need to pay that many bribes if the PoS system is optimally written.
Probably most of these PoS blockchains have some other vulnerabilities we can do in combination to reduce the total cost of the bribes.
03:16
If we set up the soft fork to create a new batch of coins on the blockchain, then we could do an ICO to raise funds for the attack.
F
03:17
Fića
In reply to this message
🤯
Z
03:23
Zack
we probably can't do an ICO for the first one. No one would send us money.

But lets say we get "Amoveo" written into a moderately sized PoS blockchain, and it costs us a few thousands.

At that point, if we launch an ICO to attack a big PoS blockchain, and likely raise a lot of money.

It might be easier to attack a pow/pos hybrid that uses GPU to mine instead of attacking a gigantic PoS right off the bat.
03:23
we can rent GPU hashpower
A
03:32
Alfred
In reply to this message
what about including "Amoveo" in block but also adding a more nefarious modifications.

As a holder of said coin I'd accept the bribe to write Amoveo but I might ask for more or just not be willing to hurt the chain in a more serious way
03:32
maybe keep that for the second attack tho
Z
03:38
Zack
Say we have a list of all the pubkeys of validators for a blockchain.
I could make amoveo smart contracts like this.

I lock up 1 veo. you lock up 1 veo.
If you are unable to create a signature using the validator's private key, then you lose the bet.
If the validator with this public key does not participate in the attack, then you lose the bet.

I think for this to be cost effective, we first need to finish the update so that we can make bets on oracles that don't yet exist. That way we wont have to pay to make thousands of oracles for all the different validators.
03:42
I think we can set it up so there is a short time limit by which they have to provide that signature.
So then they would only need to lock like 0.01 veo on their side.
03:49
We can probably embed an Amoveo light node inside the soft fork.
That way they don't have to even think about Amoveo in order to accept the bribe.
It would all happen automatically.
ideally it would automatically use an exchange to convert the VEO bribe into their preferred currency.
03:51
I wonder how the devs of other blockchains would feel about us polluting their code base with lots of Amoveo specific software.

I guess they wont be happy having to install erlang just to run their full node.

Undoing a soft fork is always a hard fork. haha
K
04:27
K
In reply to this message
Evolution at work
Z
05:20
Zack
The ouroboros community holds mathematical proofs as one of their important values.
05:33
the zano dev says he is willing to debate with me about these proposed attacks on Zano in #general on their discord on Wednesday.
Š
05:35
Šea
Nice👌
S
05:40
Scrypte
Oh yeaaaaah :D
A
05:40
Alfred
that's pretty cool
MF
06:21
Mr Flintstone
I don’t think cardano pos is live yet?
06:21
could be wrong
Z
06:27
Zack
Looks like you are right.
TG
08:48
Toby Ganger
Cardano POS is not live yet…it’s supposed to launch sometime before the end of the year and then be gradually phased in further…
Z
08:59
Zack
Writing an explanation for why it's all built on quicksand could be useful, right?
08:59
Code can be edited just like documentation.
08:59
Ideas are what really matter
EA
13:10
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Can someone document and share? This is going to get interesting...
A
17:17
Alfred
In reply to this message
If it's not at a time I'm sleeping I'm prolly gonna take notes
17:29
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
oh... is it a scam
Z
19:45
Zack
If anyone who recently joined is human, speak up.
I will ban all these fake accounts.
P
19:46
P
only 2 guys look legit and are outside the algorithmically generated names
19:49
complete purge is also fine it seems lol
C
19:52
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
There are captcha bots, maybe thats an idea?
P
19:55
P
These two in combo are more than enough:
@AntiUserbotsBot
@daysandbox_bot
19:55
>t. havent seen a spam message in months
Z
19:56
Zack
My experience as a programmer has given me a natural fear of unnecessary automation.
P
19:56
P
In reply to this message
you should play more factorio tbh
A
20:08
ALGO
A
Amoveo News 13.08.2019 20:07:46
This week's newsletter covers issues of PoW/PoS hybrid, the oracle data scrapping problem, why having multiple security models makes it impossible to calculate how secure a blockchain is and much more.

Read more about it here: https://amoveo.substack.com/p/22-issues-of-powpos-hybrid-the-oracle?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&utm_source=copy
Z
21:01
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang/blob/master/src/lisp2/dice.scm
Denis Voskvitsov helped me to write a smart contract that acts like a slot machine.
It is like satoshi dice.
21:04
we would still need to write a lot of javascript code to make an interface to use the contract.
C
21:10
Chris 🍞
is anyone else experiencing problems with amoveopool connectability?
Z
21:11
Zack
@potat_o runs amoveopool
21:12
https://amoveopool.com/ looks like they are finding blocks
C
21:12
Chris 🍞
yeah but my miner keeps getting disconnected
21:13
I can't post a screenshot here, so i'll wait for @potat_o
21:13
get_job_veo_by_curl failed
21:15
might be a prob on my end though! (most likely 😆) just got this miner this week. dedicated to amoveo =D
J
21:26
Jed
In reply to this message
we use Sheildy in our telegram channels and it definetly cuts down on most of the spam ...it isnt self hosted tho
谜 invited 谜
21:33
中文?
Z
21:35
Zack
In reply to this message
Z
22:38
Zack
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=dJLYRADcPP4
I think this is the best blockchain futarchy video that exists
TG
23:48
Toby Ganger
In reply to this message
No. What a bizarre question
A
23:58
ALGO
In reply to this message
Thanks Zack, watching now
14 August 2019
D
00:15
Devender
Zack what's your view on DAG-based architecture like iota tangle?
Z
02:34
Zack
In reply to this message
Looking at the IOTA white paper, it seems like the pow half of their pow/pos hybrid model is not being used. It is cheap to get >50% hashpower, but having >50% hashpower wont matter.

In IOTA there are some rich people who keep spending their money to themselves over and over. This is how their asynchronous PoS algorithm works.

If you control more than 50% of the IOTAs on nodes that are spamming these txs sending money to themselves, then you can push through soft forks to update the consensus rules and take over the network permanently.

There is no cost to making txs that later get orphaned, so there is no cost to making txs to support the attacker's fork.
So it is very cheap to pay the bribes and take over IOTA.

I think IOTA might be the cheapest PoS blockchain to take over, out of all the ones we have looked at recently.
At least, relative to it's market cap.
02:35
Their PoW isn't being used to support consensus, it is just an anti-spam feature so that the total number of valid messages that a full node would have to consider has some reasonable bounds.
w
02:45
wvvw
In reply to this message
👍👍👍👍👍👏👏
D
02:53
Devender
In reply to this message
Serguei Popov spent significant time in designing tangle. It would be great if you wanna write something about that like you review other projects.
w
03:00
wvvw
Zack is going next level. Zack 2.0 😁
03:01
the same info in a shareable form.
I am not sure what else you want me to write?

I think a shorter paper is better, it is easier to read.
w
03:01
wvvw
In reply to this message
👏🎉🎉
03:06
Post it to @iotatangle Telegram Chat
D
03:07
Devender
In reply to this message
I'll ask iota dev to have a look on it
03:07
In reply to this message
That's what I was talking about. Thanks!
Z
03:08
Zack
great
w
03:09
wvvw
It depends how you approach them.
03:09
Official or personal
03:16
Make live Reviews on Twitch, YouTube Stream... That would be cool PR. Would be more technically but anyways Interesting
03:16
Please review Beam :)
K
03:39
K
In reply to this message
Could you reply back with their answer when you get it? Thanks! I’m also very interested
Z
03:41
Zack
Sure, I am willing to do a dialog with them.
I might not be able to do it real-time though, because I am on a drivechain research binge.
But if they write something up, I am happy to make a response within the next day or two.
K
03:45
K
In reply to this message
🙏ty
Z
05:50
Zack
haha
A
07:26
Alfred
EA
07:30
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
@ZackatronTheArchangel may have infiltrated him
K
07:37
K
If a POS network is attacked, the value of the network will go down on all exchanges even if people are being blocked by moving their funds since there are tons of coins already in exchange wallets
07:38
Also there probably won’t be enough liquidity for people to dump their coins anyways
07:38
It doesn’t seem like attacking a pos network could really profit for attackers in any way
07:42
Not accepting bribes will more than likely lead to everyone gaining more money in the long term than accepting it and collapsing the coin
07:43
Accepting bribes also has a risk of people who accepted the bribe being punished
K
07:44
K
In reply to this message
Yeah. I’m reading that now. There’s no invective for a majority coalition to become bad actors is my point
Z
07:44
Zack
the incentive of an individual and the incentive of the group are not always the same.
When they differ, that is called "market failure"
K
07:49
K
For someone in pos to go along with the attacker they’d have to be convinced that the attacker had majority power
07:50
Or else they could be punished for trying to attack the network
07:53
The attacker would need to gather and convince all accounts that he has other accounts bribed that control 51% of the stake before actually attacking the chain in any way
Z
07:53
Zack
the attack can be set up so it wont activate until >80% of validators have locked in and given safety deposits.
07:54
so if any of the 80% double-crosses and refuses to attack, they lose their safety deposit
A
07:58
Alfred
In reply to this message
Why would price go down?
07:59
Historically double spends haven't affected coin price so much
Exchanges are the one taking the loss
K
07:59
K
In reply to this message
None of the double spends have been on POS from what I remember
A
08:00
Alfred
That's not relevant
08:00
Oh you mean that it would create a wave of FUD against pos or so?
08:01
And people would sell?
K
08:01
K
I think it’s more significant for a pos chain to be 51% attacked than a pow chain.
A
08:01
Alfred
I don't see why that would have any different impact
For me the only risk is exchange delisting coins and this historically drops price
K
08:02
K
But that point doesn’t matter anymore cuz of this
08:02
In reply to this message
.
A
08:05
Alfred
In reply to this message
I think XVG was attacked once, the marketcap was really big, I don't think dpuble spending on a smaller PoS network could have anymore media coverage than that
Besides some pos coins have been attacked before iirc
K
08:06
K
In reply to this message
What pos coins have had double spend attack’s?
A
08:07
Alfred
Not sur it was double spends but more some exploits and vulnerabilities
K
08:07
K
I’ve heard of LISK but I don’t think they have done anything actually bad to the chain
A
08:07
Alfred
Exchange are the one losing money in these attack most of time and are the only one really caring about that
08:08
That's why exchanges like bittrex are sponsoring stuff like VBK lol
08:09
They suffered big loss on BTG double spend and had to delist
K
08:09
K
What chain would you trust more, a pow chain that had one 51% attack, or a pos chain that had one
08:09
Since all the power is distributed within the network, someone owning 51% stake is more serious
08:10
And also the fact that people can be punished etc makes a pos attack more stable. Read what Zack wrote about pos
A
08:13
Alfred
I'm not saying it's more or less serious I'm saying that this type of stuff mostly don't influence price
Maybe that would be an exception but I doubt it
08:14
Or maybe a whale would use the bad news as a negative catalyst to tank price and buy lower but that's not related to seriousness of the attak
K
08:14
K
In reply to this message
The fact that’s it’s more serious means it should affect price more
A
08:15
Alfred
Maybe in the long run PoS price would all converge to 0 if it's demonstrated impossible to secure
08:16
Otherwise market price has not much to do with double spending on any type of chain
08:16
Except for the coins attackers will dump
K
08:18
K
Na many people will dump cuz a centralized blockchain is useless
A
08:18
Alfred
Most market actors don't care abt that sorry to ruin it for you lol
K
08:19
K
In reply to this message
They do. If your chain is centralized is becomes useless. That is massive
08:19
Why would you hold a coin that’s really vulnerable to an attack or that will likely be super dumped on by an attacker
A
08:19
Alfred
Want to take a real world example that people don't care?
08:20
Skycoin
08:20
Literally runs on a single computer
08:20
Funds have historically been froxen globally
K
08:20
K
Has sky coin been attacked ?
A
08:20
Alfred
By the creator
08:20
Literally has power to freeze whole coins
K
08:21
K
Isn’t sky coin still in development and meant to be centralized
08:21
It’s end goal is to be decentralized
A
08:21
Alfred
Take a look at the chart and come say me again that people care
08:21
Lol
08:23
Manipulators and speculators are playing this game along with you, price is not representing soundness of tech is a basic fact of crypto imho
08:24
And many other markets
K
08:24
K
What pos chain was 51% attacked tho
08:24
That’s meant to be decentralized
08:28
In reply to this message
What do you mean by safety deposit? Is there a way to verify that everyone involved will actually attack without anyone sending their stake or keys to the attacker?
Z
08:29
Zack
they can have stake in a smart contract on Amoveo
08:29
there are a lot of different kinds of attacks that can be done
08:30
different PoS should be optimally taken down in different ways
08:30
sometimes I think having the validators give safety deposits can be useful.
MF
08:50
Mr Flintstone
say something bad happens and you don’t participate, you lose 80%. And if you do participate you lose 75%. which option are you going to choose
08:50
just because the price goes down, doesn’t mean you aren’t able to compare the relative value of two choices
A
08:54
Alfred
In reply to this message
And that is if price even goes down :3
Z
09:05
Zack
It seems like drivechain can't work.
Z9
13:43
Zackatron 9000
In reply to this message
Who? I am here to serve Master Zack
13:45
I plead the 5th on infiltration. I am programmed benevolent
Peter W invited Peter W
A
16:51
Alfred
In reply to this message
I know they are pow :)
Are they really under attack for 2monthes? lol
C
16:52
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
on multiple algo's? ( it will be a 60% attack but still)
A
17:03
Alfred
In reply to this message
Lmao
19:18
https://discord.gg/5UmYcUT Here is a link to the Zano discord where the debate will be today.
S
19:59
SSDD
A
Amoveo News 14.08.2019 19:22:21
New video with the Managing Director of Blockchain Advisory Ltd, Jonathan Galea, about how decentralized communities should regulate themselves and why Bitcoin is the brightest example of self-regulation.

Watch the interview here: https://youtu.be/ZSwyIwjAMqE
J
20:21
Jed
In reply to this message
if you dont have discord our telegram is linked by bridge, heres the link to that 🍻 https://t.me/zanocoin
Z
23:02
Zack
the zano dev responded
Š
23:12
Šea
Why not copy paste conversartion here?
Z
23:13
Zack
If I point new audience towards Zano, maybe they wont be so offended that I am looking for bugs in their work.
Š
23:15
Šea
Nah, it doesnt make any sense. Since zano was first mentioned here they got less then 10 new people in, so its not a big deal
Z
23:15
Zack
the conversation is already copied to their telegram channel too
23:16
if I manually copy/paste stuff, then the edit tool wont work
Š
23:16
Šea
Also, i read your last response and i still have an impression you put too much weight on theory. Actually i dont think "bribe" in sense you present it is a serious flaw
23:16
Or at least not serious until i see it happened anywhere
23:17
Do you know any case where the chain was attacked successfuly this way?
Z
23:17
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/blockchain_engineers_manifesto.md
We need to develop tools to assess the security of blockchains.
Š
23:18
Šea
👍
15 August 2019
A
00:07
Alfred
In reply to this message
These "theoretical attacks" are theoretical.... until they're not
Š
00:07
Šea
In reply to this message
Exactly
A
00:08
Alfred
I don't think there is enough of theory work around these type of issues and I'm glad people like zack take a great amount of time to work toward solving these issues
00:08
Or at least clarifying them
Š
02:10
Šea
I appreciate the work Zack is putting in for sure. But some assumptions just seem unprobable
J
02:13
Jed
absolutly impressed by the debate nothing but respect for Zack and zoidberg
GB
02:18
Giga Byted
Yeah havent seen such civilized debated since a long time, im in awe!
Š
02:37
Šea
I like to see response Zack got from Zano. Few projects have also been warned about potential flaws but didn't even care to discuss about it
GB
02:54
Giga Byted
hidding means you will go down, better not hide from hard questions
Š
02:56
Šea
Sure
GB
03:01
Giga Byted
But i think there's 2 reasons why zano pow/pos is working so great:

1 - Well thought PoS implementation
2 - 5 Years of BBR supply is backing zano pos, if zano had no swap at all and was doing pow/pos from a new supply, then zack would be right and pow/pos would be weaker than just PoW for zano
Z
03:01
Zack
It is so refreshing having someone attack my ideas instead of my character :)
GB
03:01
Giga Byted
for sure, its amazing, this is a very rare event
03:01
so glad this is goign so well
03:02
we need to do this more often
03:02
seeing 2 giants like you guys challenging each others ideas is refreshing, crypto is lacking this. ego is ruining crypto
03:13
Zack will you finished your technical review over zano and adjust based on the discussion of today? i would love to read that!
03:15
For what ive understood is that zano seems to be a rare case (for now) where hybryd PoW/PoS consensus is stronger than just PoW. Of course this can change over time as cryptoeconomics changes, but as of now, it seems to be a good choice...
Z
03:17
Zack
In reply to this message
yeah, I keep making adjustments. Tell me if you see I forgot to change something.
03:18
In reply to this message
The cold hard math says that PoW is more secure than hybrid. and in the long run I expect this to be true.

But today, August 2019, it seems like predators capable of hunting pow/pos hybrid chains do not yet exist. And once they do exist, they have plenty of easier prey to hunt before going after Zano.
S
03:37
Scrypte
Even with the curve used by zano when even 90% of the PoS still requires over 18% of the PoW?
Z
03:39
Zack
seems like it.
That is what the graph says.

I did a lot of math to find out what kind of fork choice rules could possibly exist, and his chart seems to be inside the range of what is possible.
S
03:51
Scrypte
👍
Š
04:34
Šea
Cool, will read
A
06:44
Alfred
In reply to this message
nice
Z
08:52
Zack
I'm hoping someone tries to get revenge, and review amoveo using the same math tools as I have been reviewing everyone else.
Z
11:07
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/drivechain.md

How can I make this better?

If Drive chain doesn't work, it is a tragedy that Paul sztorc is spending so much time on it instead of on futarchy stuff.
Eli Krenzke invited Eli Krenzke
15:54
Deleted Account
for me im not convinced that all pos blockchain dont work in all situations, because there seems to be some much newer solutions like algorand and avalanche that claimed to be much superior. I dont know whether they are good, but no one has proven that they dont work yet.
A
16:28
Alfred
In reply to this message
There is another simple reason why PoS doesn't really work:
It's impossible to distribute coins
Z
17:52
Zack
In reply to this message
it is true that PoS can't be used to distribute coins. But that fact alone isn't enough to stop PoS from being used as a consensus mechanism.

In theory we could use PoW to distribute coins, or use PoS in a network that was so big, we don't need to grow by distributing more coins.

Too bad PoS can't work.
A
17:54
Alfred
In reply to this message
You can use PoW to bootstrap the network but then you'd have to hardfork for transitioning right?
When I want to use a decentralized network I'd rather these to never hardfork for such reasons
17:55
Also when is the good time to transition?
Z
17:55
Zack
futarchy is a way for a community to decide on a hard update without breaking decentralization.

But the problem with PoS isn't about making the decision to switch to PoS.
The problem with PoS is that it is cheap to bribe the validators and break consensus.
There is no security guarantee that your money wont get stolen.
17:56
It is never a good idea to transition to PoS, because PoS is not secure. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/proof_of_stake.md
17:56
Deleted Account
futarchy is good solution, but it isnt always right?
A
17:57
Alfred
In reply to this message
Yea I'm not questioning that lol - just highlighting another reason why PoS isn't an optimal solution anyway, even if it was not less secure
K
17:58
K
In reply to this message
Why would hardforking be bad? Hardforking is completely decentralized
17:58
Even better when everyone expects a pos hardfork to arrive
Z
17:58
Zack
In reply to this message
When I want to spread butter on my toast, and I am choosing between either futarchy, or a butter knife.
In that case, the butter knife is a better tool for speading my butter, in comparison to futarchy.

So, futarchy is not always the best solution for the job at hand.

Futarchy only makes sense if there is a community of people trying to make a decision together. It can't be used for anything else.
A
17:58
Alfred
In reply to this message
As stated by Zack above - it breaks decentralization if you're not using smth like Futarchy
K
17:59
K
In reply to this message
But no one is forced to go along with the hardfork
17:59
If enough people disagree with a decision made on any governance model they will still just hardfork the chain
17:59
And go their own way
A
18:10
Alfred
In reply to this message
It's not how most hardforks work nowadays - Usually the devs make an update then go to contact significant nodes (exchanges typically) and tell them "You have to update before XX/XX/XXXX" lol
18:10
People use hardforks as a way to upgrade the protocol like they would just increment a software version
18:13
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/10000
I like this answer by Pieter wuille
18:14
"Regarding decentralization, I think you mistake consensus for centralization. There are of course degrees, but ultimately it is Bitcoin's users who decide which rules to enforce by the software they run. However, as explained, there is a huge incentive for making sure no real disagreement arises. In some cases that may mean discussion will be needed, and an agreement has to be reached, perhaps a compromise. But it doesn't mean one party gets to control others."
K
20:09
K
In reply to this message
Exchanges can update their software to whatever they want. They could go against a governance decision and not upgrade if they wanted and fork
20:09
You’ll get an ETC ETH split which is decentralized with everyone picking their own version
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
16 August 2019
Z
01:09
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8080/lookup.html the light node lookup tool now allows you to see the unmatched bets in each oracle.
A
01:24
ALGO
Could you give an example of how someone would use it?
Z
01:25
Zack
If you want to make a report to the oracle, previously you could only look up how much money is currently at stake in the oracle.
So if you made a report, later when you would look it up, you cant tell if you are first in line, or last in line, or somewhere in the middle.
Now you can see who made reports in the order book, and their order. So you can know if your report is next to be matched.
01:26
To do this, look up an oracle using the oracle ID, just like it was before.
Now you will receive more information than you had been receiving previously.
01:40
AViz5Ct82cT88aN76hu9hhzyjPDK5XTJWZ1QW03sgwg= This oracle has a report in it, if you want to try it out.
A
01:41
ALGO
Cool! The information that populated for me was:

this oracle is still open
this is a question oracle
asks: Will this oracle be created?

starts: 77674
current type: true
done timer: 78878
oracle bet number 1 with pubkey: BAqSqZ9hi/o0YaDGiSu7Hu342HelnjIsLfuvzE+AXbw7LKrag/Isr18EVVxV/TBkCDJ9K2a8pIJkwyUJ1PBFew0= amount: 0.06
Z
02:18
Zack
Github says 45 people visited the Zano review in August, and 687 visited the proof of stake review.

Twitter says my most popular tweet in August was the Zano review, because it had 8500 impressions, whereas the proof of stake review only had 4300 impressions.
02:19
I think it is just because notsofast on twitter retweeted the zano tweet, and he has a big audience.
Z
04:20
Zack
I am socially inept.
I messed up when talking to the drivechain guys.
@DcInsiders
Does anyone know how to fix this?
I
05:29
Instinct
In reply to this message
Give it some time, you are obsessive when you find something that interests you it seems. Also sometimes people don't want your help even if u believe it will be beneficial.
Z
05:30
Zack
I am gathering information so I can do better at building Amoveo.
I
05:32
Instinct
It is like they are in their office and you come running in telling them their whole business is wrong & also that the building they're in might collapse 😂
05:32
In reply to this message
👍
A
05:32
Alfred
In reply to this message
😂
Z
05:33
Zack
I have always thought that it is most respectful to another person's time to get straight to the point.
Am I supposed to list 5 I like about them before I can tell one criticism?
A
05:33
Alfred
I think you should open github issues on the projects instead maybe
Z
05:33
Zack
The only thing I am reviewing is consensus mechanisms. So it's not like I can reveal any useful information that isn't scary.
A
05:34
Alfred
coming on telegram making these kind of statements can be wrongly perceived
Z
05:34
Zack
In reply to this message
on github they wouldn't feel pressured to respond right away, so I might get a better response?
A
05:35
Alfred
Yea I think it's the "pressured" part that is bothering 😂
Z
05:35
Zack
got it
A
05:35
Alfred
You would also get better answer and people would take more time to write them
05:35
not everyone can type as fast as you lmao
I
05:36
Instinct
In reply to this message
I respect that. It is probably how you approach it tho - you are looking at lots of aspects & firing lots of questions. People can be overwhelmed & see it as an attack
A
05:36
Alfred
and if after a week or so the issue is still unanswered maybe you can come and enquiry about it
I
05:36
Instinct
In reply to this message
Haha yep
Z
05:36
Zack
if someone asked me a question about our consensus mechanism on telegram, I would be totally comfortable saying "I don't know. I will have to think about that and get back to you soon."

So I didn't realize people would feel so pressured.
A
05:37
Alfred
people don't like to feel pressured into answering such questions usually - but it's not always true you have to assess depending and who you're dealing with
05:37
if you're not good at assessing then just assume they won't like it :)
DV
06:43
Denis Voskvitsov
hi guys!

as you might remember few weeks ago we started a DAC to complete Oracles feature in MyVeoWallet (https://forum.amoveo.io/t/dac-myveowallet-brand-new-features/27).
today I'm proud to announce that we've completed DAC conditions and released update of https://myveowallet.com

you are free to test it and share your feedback in direct or in @amoveo_wallet group.

right now MVW supports creation of binary oracles only. betting is available on any type of oracles (including governance ones).

the app is still open source and the updated code will be available soon at https://github.com/amoveo-project/js-web-wallet

desktop app builds with oracles support will be available tomorrow as well. I'll announce them in @amoveo_wallet group.
06:43
Now you can report in the oracle for our DAC: p4Ps01qUMpILksz57Fz3qm7POx4UHcchUjnGj5+MQzo= (just put it into search field in oracles view). After the oracle will be resolved, the DAC is closed and money from it are unlocked.
06:46
there are some possible minor issues (bet input field, for instance), which we'll fix in a few days.

next MVW development DACs will include full support for scalar oracles, working with channels, p2p offers catalog, etc
Z
07:17
Zack
A great feature of Futarchy is that it makes it easier to fire employees.
It will be kind of like this: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/ai-4
07:26
but you can also use it to fire bosses, so it wont always be like that
I
12:47
Instinct
In reply to this message
🔥🔥
Z
13:10
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8080/txs.html
I updated the checkpoint for syncing. so the light node loads faster.
13:11
In reply to this message
This wallet has QR codes for sending!
That is so cool :)
13:17
Can I share a link to myveowallet on twitter?
Or do you guys not want that much attention yet?
@denis_voskvitsov
A
14:43
ALGO
In reply to this message
You should feel free to share :)
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
J
18:10
JOHNwick3's dog
DV
20:13
Denis Voskvitsov
btw, there is new page in https://myveowallet.com/ called Governance
it shows current vaues of every governance variable, check it

also we'll make it available without wallet loaded soon.
A
20:20
ALGO
A
Amoveo News 16.08.2019 19:28:39
There are various methods of motivating reporters for providing honest answers, and, therefore, in this article, we will look at some techniques that were implemented in Chainlink, Augur, Bitcoin Hivemind and Amoveo blockchain systems.

Read more about it here: https://medium.com/amoveo/the-oracle-problem-how-decentralized-platforms-decide-what-happened-part-2-a0dfeefe1e16?sk=a2ae7ab73ffe8798c4ac6cc08e4fa49b
Anastasia Shvetsova invited Anastasia Shvetsova
17 August 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
23:05
Zack
qtrade.io is a good place to trade veo for bitcoin
18 August 2019
Z
18:39
Zack
If I keep doing reviews like this, Amoveo is going to be the most hated cryptocurrency.
K
19:15
K
In reply to this message
Any attention is good attention tho
19:16
Xrp is hated yet has been in the top for years
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
19:26
Zack
It does seem to be the way of media today.
You need to find a way to use outrage to drive viewership.
K
19:26
K
In reply to this message
If the actual product has substance, the fact that a few thousand people on Twitter dislike the project won’t matter
Z
19:27
Zack
yes
A
19:30
Alfred
In reply to this message
Don't make it a life goal tho.. sometimes having people who like you is good/helpful as well 😂
Z
19:39
Zack
yes, that makes sense
K
19:59
K
In reply to this message
They’ll come with the new found attention
S
21:54
Scrypte
In reply to this message
We are happy for this review you've done, no hated there sir! There is nothing constructive in someone agreeing with everything we say!
19 August 2019
A
00:49
Aries
Is Zack in Berlin
00:49
For BBW
Z
00:50
Zack
I am not attending that event.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
CD
02:11
Crypt Dweller
Who writes the Amoveo weekly newsletters? I just had the thought that David Friedman would be a great person to interview next about prediction markets and cryptoeconomics.
Z
02:11
Zack
that would be amazing
CD
02:13
Crypt Dweller
I can set this up
02:13
He is a Professor Emeritus at my law school, which I just found out a few minutes ago
02:14
You could imagine my surprise, and joy too of course, to learn that he worked at such a low-ranked law school as mine, haha.
02:15
Whoever publishes the newsletters PM me and we can talk
02:17
Zack, please feel free to propose any questions you'd like him to answer, if you have any
Z
02:18
Zack
In reply to this message
awesome! :)
so much pressure
02:18
He really has been an inspiration in my life
Z
02:44
Zack
Well, he is really good at economics and futarchy.
So I guess we should ask him "Do you think that blockchain is a useful technology to help achieve the goals of futarchy?"
"If there was a currency that enabled arbitrary trustless futarchy markets, do you think this could become a popular currency?"
"Do you have any recommendations for futarchy markets that can resolve in less than 2 months?"
J
02:59
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
In reply to this message
DV
03:11
Denis Voskvitsov
I guess Stepan doesn't do it anymore, now it's @ALGO94
CD
05:08
Crypt Dweller
Thank you Zack. I will do my best to make this happen! Although it may take a couple weeks before I can interview him.
Z
06:07
Zack
https://twitter.com/jaekwon/status/1163207152565014528?s=20 Jae Kwon who founded Cosmos is commenting on my analysis of proof of stake
06:10
Jae used to give me a lot of one-on-one advice and tutoring when I was getting started learning software development and blockchain. We shared an office.
Z
10:21
Zack
the binary market I wrote in lisp is 1800 bytes. even after working at it a while.
the scalar market, which is considerably more complicated, is less than 1600 bytes.

All the tests are passing for both.
It is really confusing.
10:23
oh, I was looking at the wrong number.
10:25
it is 3300 bytes. so not quite 2x longer.
10:27
So this means we have both smart contracts working for the new way of generating oracle IDs.
The next step will be to update the light node to use these new smart contracts, and to generate oracle IDs the new way.
Then we can do a soft update to make it mandatory to generate oracle IDs with these new rules.

And then we will be supporting betting on oracles that do not yet exist.
MF
10:28
Mr Flintstone
it would be a soft update not hard
Z
10:28
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/experimental/apps/amoveo_core/priv/scalar_market.scm
Here is what the new smart contract looks like.
I am still going to clean it up, now that it is working
10:28
In reply to this message
true
10:29
I used map and fold.
common higher order functions
⭕⚒PROFIT MINING⚒⭕ invited ⭕⚒PROFIT MINING⚒⭕
15:54
⭕⚒PROFIT MINING⚒⭕
Hello
15:55
time plock 600 or 1200 sec?
S
17:33
Sy
600
19:20
⭕⚒PROFIT MINING⚒⭕
In reply to this message
https://api.amoveopool.com/network/stats not correct nethashrate‼️
OK
21:07
O K
In reply to this message
I'll take a look, thanks
23:41
Deleted Account
Howdy I have some veo stored on the web wallet, havent paid attention for months but know ther have been hard forks, were the forks backwards compatable with coins stored on the web wallet? cheers.
B
23:43
Ben
yes
20 August 2019
A
19:22
Alfred
https://twitter.com/zack_bitcoin/status/1163743366061969408

Trying to limit mining to CPU is pointless for other reasons as well.
What counts is not "what kind of hardware I can use to mine" but "how much more hashrate throughput I can have compared to my neighbor".
In that sense trying to limit to certain hardware is exactly like security through obscurity. There will always be a more performant miner than you because of better hardware or software.
Doing this also usually makes people come up with increasingly complex PoW thus giving even more possibilities to professional miners to exploit that complexity to gain an edge over their opponents.
PoW has to be kept simple to limit these unwanted side effect. SHA3 for the win :)
Z
19:28
Zack
In reply to this message
No advances in oracle tech since I wrote it.
Did chainlink redo their oracle since then?
A
19:31
Alfred
In reply to this message
because they have a shill army on 4chan :p
Z
19:32
Zack
Oh, that's why I didn't remember chainlink oracle.
They are the ones who do like 4 different broken strategies for oracles, and layer then all on top of each other
19:33
Yes, all those different strategies are still broken for the reasons in that paper.
19:42
Advanced players of the board game go can replay a game from memory.

But the game has to be well played, they remember moves because of the logic behind why they were played.

If beginners play each other, the moves are basically random, and no one can memorize it easily.

A well designed blockchain mechanism is easier to memorize, because the pieces have logical reasons that they are used together. So if you remember any part, it helps you remember the rest.
S
20:56
Sy
Fun fact, the pool has paid out more than 1 million $ at current rate...fascinating
Z
20:56
Zack
Congratulations. I hope you keep it running for many more
S
20:58
Sy
Thats the plan 😅
I
21:11
Instinct
In reply to this message
👀👌
?
21:26
🤠Anton
In reply to this message
👍🏻
Z
22:28
Zack
In reply to this message
Most of this is really good, but the section describing Amoveo's oracle is misleading.

The betting mechanism in the oracle is only an escalation mechanism so that we can prevent attackers from spamming the true oracle mechanism.
22:29
If the miners need to get involved, we want it to be profitable for them to get involved.
The escalation mechanism means that if the miners are getting involved, there will be lots of profit for them to take.
22:49
⭕⚒PROFIT MINING⚒⭕
Admin tell me where you can see the correct nethashrate?
Z
22:50
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8080/explorer.html
14.7 TH/s
click "update height"
22:52
⭕⚒PROFIT MINING⚒⭕
In reply to this message
have api?
Z
22:54
Zack
In reply to this message
I can make an API for that if you need, but are you sure that is the number you want?
If you are doing something mining related, it seems like the difficulty would be a more useful number.
22:58
⭕⚒PROFIT MINING⚒⭕
In reply to this message
I believe the profit from nethashrate I do not know the formula of profit mining from the complexity for Your coin
Z
22:59
Zack
In reply to this message
the hashrate can only be estimated by looking at how fast the last few blocks were mined.
So any hashrate estimate is going to be telling you what the network was like a couple hours ago.

The difficulty can be used to calculate exactly how profitable mining is right now.
22:59
⭕⚒PROFIT MINING⚒⭕
In reply to this message
I need to get the current block number, difficulty, nethashrate, block reward
23:01
In reply to this message
what formula can be used to calculate profit using difficulty?
Z
23:01
Zack
In reply to this message
ok, ill set up an api for that
23:01
⭕⚒PROFIT MINING⚒⭕
In reply to this message
Thanks!
Z
23:02
Zack
https://explorer.veopool.pw/ I think there is a calculator somewhere on this site
23:07
⭕⚒PROFIT MINING⚒⭕
I need an api for my service https://calcminer.info/
23:07
In reply to this message
not have api
S
23:15
Sy
yeah its a odd one, showing up everywhere lately
23:17
but why is the hashrate incorrect?
21 August 2019
Z
01:27
Zack
If I make dominant assurance contracts to pay people to make oracles on the bitcoin hivemind testnet, would you guys do it?

I want to write facts about how great Amoveo is as oracle questions, so that everyone who tests out their oracle will learn about Amoveo.

We could probably do this to all the other oracle platforms as well.
PB
08:49
Phil Bonello
Zack I thought you would have some input here. https://twitter.com/mhluongo/status/1163775936724197378
Z
12:28
Zack
In reply to this message
All my work on oracles has been open source a long time.

This event isn't really about solving an Oracle problem.
If you wanted to learn about oracles, you would do better to stay home and read about oracles instead of going to an event like this.

This event is happening for a couple reasons:
* it is a job fair.
* it is a networking event.
* it is a chance for tBTC to advertise.

I have no interest in giving or taking a job.
I am not interested in networking for the sake of networking. I already have a stack of business cards from random people I don't care to talk to.
I think it is better to focus on solving real problems, and let networking happen as a side-effect.
I have no interest in helping tBTC advertise. I don't even know what they are.

So, I am not involving myself in this event.
PB
12:32
Phil Bonello
In reply to this message
This is just Matt Luongo discussing alternative methods for converging on accurate price without using price feeds. It's not at all about the conference. There is a dialogue on twitter about potential solutions. I know you have thoughts there and could add to the conversation. Honey rather than vinegar. Give it a shot.
Z
12:35
Zack
the only suggestion I see in the comments is to use a trusted third party. Nic Carter suggested this.
Is that what you wanted me to respond to?
Or did someone else make a suggestion somewhere that I didn't notice.
PB
12:37
Phil Bonello
I don't want you to respond to anything necessarily but if you have consructive thoughts then it's a good opportunity to voice them, help the community and promote Amoveo. https://twitter.com/danrobinson/status/1163870852493877249
Z
12:37
Zack
It seems pretty boring to reiterate the reasons that the cryptocurrency community prefers trustless solutions instead of trusted third parties.

What kind of person goes to a cryptocurrency conference to try and convince everyone to use a centralized and trusted betting platform? haha
PB
12:38
Phil Bonello
What are you talking about?
Z
12:39
Zack
In reply to this message
so Dan thinks we should use an auction system to decide who the trusted third party will be.
Z
12:45
Zack
In reply to this message
This is an interesting idea I will look into. Thank you for sharing.
13:00
If a blockchain has multiple sub-currencies, like Ethereum does, then it is possible to have markets to find out the relative prices of those sub-currencies.
If there is a sub-currency that is linked to bitcoin somehow, then yes, I think this could be a way to find out the price of BTC inside of ethereum.

But, this kind of oracle can only be used for finding the relative prices of subcurrencies. You can't use it to bet on a political election, or a sporting event.

As long as we are using an on-chain market to determine the price of bitcoin, then miners are going to have some influence over the order that trades are added to this market. They can have some influence over the price of the oracle, and use this influence to extract a little more value from traders in comparison to the fee that the trader thinks they are paying.
So it is less efficient in comparison to Amoveo's oracle design.
13:02
Also, on-chain markets are going to have issues of miners front-running the trades. Which causes some additional waste.
Sherwin invited Sherwin
A
19:22
ALGO
Hey everyone, we should continue to look for opportunities in regard to where to list VEO. One small exchange we can begin to try to work with is 'tradeogre' it was very popular with microcrap traders for a while and still use.

When you have time please fill out the listing form found here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScolXS8WMCDG7j8dIAbmutrQR6BWD5BrOCcRKJLCFfgPTBwoQ/viewform?usp=sf_link to suggest listing VEO
A
19:39
ALGO
A
Amoveo News 21.08.2019 19:38:12
This week's newsletter covers Amoveo's appearance on Cointelegraph, updated MyVeoWallet and much more.

Read more about it here: https://amoveo.substack.com/p/23-mvw-update-amoveo-on-cointelegraph
22 August 2019
Z
03:57
Zack
https://www.owl-coin.com/coins/amoveo a website in japanese that mentions Amoveo
I
04:44
Instinct
In reply to this message
Cool
Deleted invited Deleted Account
A
19:06
ALGO
A
Amoveo News 22.08.2019 19:06:37
Z
20:25
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/viral_info_plan.md Thinking about a way to market Amoveo and achieve product market fit.
ŽM
20:27
Živojin Mirić
USA presidential elections are near
20:28
it will be a very hot topic, already is
P
20:28
P
looking forward to betting on it tbh
Z
20:29
Zack
There are a lot of markets for this already, I think our advantage is how customize-able our markets can be.
ŽM
20:29
Živojin Mirić
that Yang guy is very popular in younger, tech savvier generation, maybe play an angle with those guys communities
Z
20:29
Zack
In reply to this message
good idea
ŽM
20:29
Živojin Mirić
they could spread the word
20:30
and that may produce a click bait article: "blockchain predicts Yangs victory" or something like that with Amoveo in the body
K
20:31
K
Zack what do you think about XRP’s consensus algo? Seems like it’s possible to need to bribe more people to take over the system than in POS
ŽM
20:31
Živojin Mirić
shit tier news sources could just make articles on that alone
Z
20:34
Zack
In reply to this message
Anything worse than 2 will be out-competed by things at level 2. ripple seems to be level 4. you just have to bribe ripple to change the code on their core servers to do a soft fork to make any arbitrary change.
K
20:38
K
Isn’t that the same with any blockchain. You could bribe the dev team to make a change and people will tend to just go along with it
20:39
Or are you suggesting ripple has a core server that controls the ledger? I think that’s incorrect
Z
20:39
Zack
I wish there was some way to take advantage of conditional markets. but it is so many months until they take office.

Recently, the stock markets in Argentina reacted during the voting for their election, because it looked like the people who would win are the ones with the policy that is bad for business.

Maybe we should make a prediction market to measure a correlation in the expectation of who will win, and things like bond prices and the price of a stock market.

So, for example, we could have a prediction market that shows if the probability that Yang will win is negatively correlated with the probability that we will have war with China in the next 4 years.

And we reference prices in other existing markets for whether Yang will win and whether war will be declared.

That way this correlation market can be short-term.
20:40
In reply to this message
the ripple software has a hard-coded list of the core nodes. The people who control those nodes can do arbitrary soft forks.
I don't know if those people are devs, or what.
20:40
Having a hard-coded list of leaders, that is a voting protocol, it is trust level 4.
K
20:59
K
In reply to this message
I’m pretty sure anyone can become a validators and become one of the ‘core nodes’ on the ripple software
20:59
There isn’t just one core group of validators that run the show
Z
21:00
Zack
I will review ripple for 2 VEO.
21:05
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/proof_of_stake.md
"We take the very general definition of Proof of stake consensus: any blockchain consensus mechanism where your influence over which block is added to the chain is proportional to some value that you own inside the blockchain's consensus state."

Regardless of whether there is a hard coded list or not, it still isn't level 2.
21:06
because it is a PoS for the purposes of that paper.
A
21:08
Alfred
In reply to this message
😁
21:09
Doesn't xrp have like only 2full history nodes or smth like that?
And I heard they are also completely missing the first 30k blocks
EA
21:20
Eric Arsenault
Zack I’m at Eth Berlin: who should I talk to about your proof of stake analysis? If interested...
21:20
Might be a good way to get some Eth folks looking at it
Z
21:20
Zack
hmm
21:21
I am not sure.
EA
21:21
Eric Arsenault
I won’t be defending your proof, but I can just say: yo! Look at this
Z
21:21
Zack
I guess, anyone who is willing to look at it? haha
EA
21:21
Eric Arsenault
Alright, let me know if you think of anything
21:21
Lol
P
21:22
P
In reply to this message
Zack have you thought about presenting at such a conference?
Z
21:22
Zack
oh, any whale investors who are secretly afraid PoS can't work
21:24
I don't like doing that sort of thing
P
21:24
P
i can imagine lol not my cup of tea either
21:25
considering you're digigng deep into research something along those lines might be an interesting opportunity tho
Z
21:26
Zack
Ever since the invention of the printing press, writing has been a better way to spread viral information than giving speeches.
P
21:26
P
true. are you looking to get published in a journal?
Z
21:27
Zack
A conference is kind of like a medieval fair, where people are pretending they are living in the middle ages.
P
21:27
P
keked
Z
21:27
Zack
I like to publish on github, that way I can make corrections when I learn more
21:28
and I can publish very early, before an idea is fully developed. Which gives more people the opportunity to help me develop the idea
I
21:28
Instinct
In reply to this message
Lol 👍
Z
21:28
Zack
Now that the internet exists, journals are a thing of the past. Like pretending it is the 1950's
A
21:37
Alfred
In reply to this message
I disagree, at conferences you're likely to reach an audience that is interested into the topic already
And there are also journalists usually which can then write articles
But I understand why you don't want to attend
21:37
Talking to people face to face is always better for convincing and writing is better for spreading massively
Z
21:38
Zack
If I emailed those same journalists with curated information about Amoveo optimized for them, wouldn't that accomplish the same thing at a far lower cost for everyone?
21:39
Then they could read it on their phone while eating breakfast or something, instead of travelling to Germany.
A
21:40
Alfred
Well they are usually paid to attend such events anyway, but you might be right
Deleted invited Deleted Account
22:08
4chan has a lot of LINK believers
I
22:08
Instinct
How are cointelegraph censoring you Zack? I don't see a comment section in the article
Z
22:09
Zack
I put a comment up earlier, and then after a while it disappeared.
22:09
"The description of the Amoveo oracle above is not accurate.
He is only describing part of the oracle system.
You can learn about Amoveo's oracle in the documentation:
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/oracle.md"

This is what i wanted to say
22:10
In reply to this message
What is the expendable income of the average 4chan user? I feel like they aren't a market worth advertising to.
A
22:11
Alfred
I have no idea but a lot of hype starts in there.
XVG - LINK etc
I
22:11
Instinct
It's mostly rubbish there tbh, lots of desperate shills
A
22:12
Avi 🌪
In reply to this message
Alot of basement derivatives there. Worth checking out
Z
22:12
Zack
maybe people test out different advertising technique in there. A/B testing. since it is anonymous, there is no cost to trying out bad strategies.
22:12
then they take the very best strategies to other platforms
A
22:13
Alfred
In reply to this message
Not arguing that lmao - it's def part of the crypto advertisment starter pack anyway :p
A
22:14
Avi 🌪
In reply to this message
Yet 4chan found bitcoin first in /g/ and ETH when it was cents
22:14
Anonimity is their strength. lurk moar and you might get it
A
22:15
Alfred
With the amount of Linkies in 4chan I'm sure Amoveo can get some visibility out of it
22:16
It's really gets tribal tho and I'm not sure zack is really into this ahah
23 August 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
11:47
Zack
I got new_oracle.js working for the new way of generating oracle ids.
CD
14:13
Crypt Dweller
Successive waves of 4channers have definitely made it big on crypto over the years. Doubtful that many stick around
Deleted invited Deleted Account
A
19:17
ALGO
A
Amoveo News 23.08.2019 19:15:38
New video with a blockchain consultant and researcher Tone Vays about why decentralization is not the most important part in the prediction market industry and where it could find its popularity.

Watch the interview here: https://youtu.be/p3FxeB1kZL8
MF
20:26
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
nice
Z
20:28
Zack
There are a bunch of place in javascript, and in erlang where I iterate through the 10 scalar oracles and do something for each one.
The biggest task left, until we can do the soft update, is to go through and update all these loops to use the new format for oracle ids
24 August 2019
DV
00:08
Denis Voskvitsov
DV
Denis Voskvitsov 24.08.2019 00:07:42
Hi!

New update of https://myveowallet.com improves initial sync speed dramatically. Now it takes seconds to sync instead of few minutes, just like original lightnode.

Another highlight of this update is access to Oracles list and Governance page without a wallet loaded. You can examine Oracles list (https://myveowallet.com/oracles/), or just open single oracle by a direct link (https://myveowallet.com/oracles/p4Ps01qUMpILksz57Fz3qm7POx4UHcchUjnGj5%2BMQzo%3D), or look at governance variables (https://myveowallet.com/governance/) and load your wallet only if you really need it.

Feel free to test new features and share your feedback in @amoveo_wallet group!
DV
00:08
Denis Voskvitsov
btw, it seems 25% of all oracle bets in mainnet were made after MVW release with Oracles feature on August, 15th 😎
MF
00:18
Mr Flintstone
awesome, thanks Denis
00:18
this is definitely not true lol
DV
00:20
Denis Voskvitsov
so you can get some free money if you bet against it :)
MF
00:25
Mr Flintstone
bold move to report on the bitcoin price one already. this is acting like a 1:1 market in some ways
I
00:45
Instinct
In reply to this message
Great 🔥
Z
03:40
Zack
In reply to this message
Great job! Those are both big improvements.
And it is great that more people are testing the Oracle tool
DV
03:45
Denis Voskvitsov
thanks! with your ideas and community support we'll be able to build really great product.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
19:49
Zack
In reply to this message
So I think I figured out the trick for this.
I just write a function once that can generate the list of 10 oracle IDs.
Then every time I need to loop over them, I first generate all 10, and then loop over them.
Before I was generating them inside the looping process, it was a mess.
Z
20:25
Zack
I was able to do the entire process of making a scalar oracle, doing bets, and closing it, all from the erlang side.
MF
23:05
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
so now you just need to program the js portion?
Z
23:28
Zack
Looks like the js new oracle isn't compatible.
So I need to fix that, abstract the tool to generate id's. Apply that everywhere.
23:29
Then we can soft update
25 August 2019
Duvan Mancera invited Duvan Mancera
MF
04:06
Mr Flintstone
some free money in this oracle
K
04:07
K
In reply to this message
damn props to the people who made that site. Looks fucking awesome!!
DV
05:27
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
thanks! whether you have any questions or bug reports, feel free to share them in @amoveo_wallet group
Z
10:30
Zack
I generated the scalar oracle in js, and made a bet in erlang.
So now I will update every other place oracle ids are used in the javascript to use the new working format.
JS
11:20
Jon Snow
I just want to say the desktop amoveo wallet developed by @denis_voskvitsov and exan tech team is really good. kudos to them!!
11:22
looking forward to more functions being added to it!
Z
11:27
Zack
In reply to this message
I was able to write the function in javascript to generate all 10 oracle ids.
So now I am going to use this function everywhere in the light wallet instead of the old way of looping over ids.
Z
21:43
Zack
It looks like Amoveo forked. half the nodes are left behind
21:44
I don't have a node on the dead side of the fork, so it is a little tough to know what happened.
I am guessing that some hard update finally got activated, and those are all the nodes that had not updated.
MF
21:48
Mr Flintstone
probably some oracle function
Z
21:48
Zack
looks like 79106 started the fork, but that block is empty
21:49
oh, this is probably that bug I had fixed where the nodes could not recover from a fork
21:49
there was probably a random orphan
21:51
Lucky thing Sy helped me solve that bug, otherwise it would have taken the network down again.
26 August 2019
Z
07:45
Zack
https://twitter.com/zack_bitcoin/status/1165761862979375104?s=20

I keep posting this same concept in different ways, I am trying to figure out a way to explain it that makes sense to people.
Z
09:10
Zack
this seems to be the best version so far.
It is also the most complicated version. it has math symbols.

I guess, on some level, people don't like to be treated like babies. They want an accurate description, even if it is more complicated.
JS
09:52
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
agree
Z
10:04
Zack
In reply to this message
I am able to make an oracle in JS, do betting and close it in Erlang, and do team-close txs from JS.

But if I try to solo-close from JS, the VM crashes while loading oracles proofs. Before the contract starts executing.

So I guess we are still generating the evidence of the blockchain's current state wrong.
10:05
I realized, before we can do the soft update, I am going to need to do some testing for a market being run on a central server. with single price batches.
We want to be able to use the new lisp version of the smart contract for everything. so we don't have to maintain both.
Warawut Utamo invited Warawut Utamo
Z
19:11
Zack
In reply to this message
this looks like they are describing parasite contracts.
It only uses Augur if there is a dispute.
19:11
is chainlink attacking Augur?
AK
19:27
A K
no no you don't get, it's a partnership :D
Z
19:28
Zack
A partnership that results in the destruction of the Augur Rep token.
This is the same reason that Veil had to cancel one of their products. To avoid doing a parasite attack against Augur.
A
19:28
Alfred
In reply to this message
I don't think this is intentional
Z
19:28
Zack
no, it is clearly not their intention
19:29
just like Veil never intended to attack Augur when they built their parasite contracts
A
19:30
Alfred
I'm not familiar with what a parasite contract is
Z
19:30
Zack
If you don't understand the game theory deeply, it seems like a parasite contract is a useful tool.
It can be faster than waiting for Augur to resolve, and you can save money on Augur fees.
19:31
In reply to this message
Oracles like Augur and Bitcoin Hivemind, they can only be secure if the total value of the votecoins/Rep is bigger than the value of all active bets being enforced by the oracle.

In order to keep the value of votecoins/Rep high enough, it is critical that Bitcoin Hivemind/Augur can charge trading fees to everyone who makes bets that are enforced by their oracle.
If there is a way to make bets without paying this trading fee, that is a parasite contract.
The existence of parasite contracts will eventually destroy the oracle.
19:34
https://www.augur.net/whitepaper.pdf the word "parasitic" appears in the Augur white paper 20 times, because this is such an important concept for their security.
A
19:34
Alfred
So this comes from the fact they only use augur as a fallback?
Z
19:35
Zack
In reply to this message
it comes from the fact that if they don't use Augur as a fallback, they are not paying trading fees.

If they set up the contract to always pay trading fees to Augur's oracle, even in the case where they do not use it for contract resolution, that would fix this vulnerability.
A
19:35
Alfred
I understand now thanks
C
23:08
Chris 🍞
hm shitbtc has disabled deposits and withdrawal.
is this because of a node upgrade perhaps?
Z
23:09
Zack
I told them to update for this issue that can cause freezes. They said they would wait until the next hard update so that they don't have to do so much work.
C
23:10
Chris 🍞
ah ok thanks for clarification. any eta on the next hard update?
Z
23:11
Zack
none are planned.
There will probably be a soft update in the next week or two, but that is only for mining pools.
Z
23:29
Zack
I sent hitbtc an email linking them to instructions on updating. hopefully they update this time.
27 August 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
02:13
Zack
ive got all the oracle data being loaded into the smart contract now.
But if I generate the oracles from javascript, then the oracle ids aren't identical to the ones generated inside the smart contract.
Z
08:42
Zack
It looks like the oracle ids generated in the smart contract are correct.
What is wrong is the oracle id from the data provided by the blockchain. haha
08:51
oh, I was confused because the just in time compiler was changing the order to try and find optimizations
08:52
the data from the blockchain is correct. the way I compute the id in the smart contract is different from in javascript.
Z
20:10
Zack
https://www.tradingview.com/symbols/NASDAQ-DEFX/
Amoveo is a part of this index on Nasdaq.
I don't really understand Nasdaq or what this would be used for.
DV
20:15
Denis Voskvitsov
it is NASDAQ ETP platform, which can be used by ETFs to create index funds based on that index
Z
20:16
Zack
hmm... I am still lost.
Maybe you can link me to a resource where I can read about this?
20:17
I don't know about "ETF" or "ETP" or "NASDAQ" or "index funds"
20:17
20:19
So this is the first step to creating a new asset that can be traded on the NASDAQ exchange?
20:24
https://www.investopedia.com/investing/bitcoin-etfs-explained/
Looks like even bitcoin doesn't have an ETF yet
ŽM
20:26
Živojin Mirić
is exante from same people as exan.tech? @denis_voskvitsov
Z
20:27
Zack
I think exan.tech is like a more technologically focused branch of exante
ŽM
20:27
Živojin Mirić
ok
DV
20:27
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
not the same people, but we're R&D part of the EXANTE holding.
ŽM
20:27
Živojin Mirić
ok thx
I
20:33
Instinct
A
20:33
ALGO
In reply to this message
ETFs are essentially digitized assets handled by brokerage firms that add peace of mind and remove the need for consumer custody of physical assets that may be linked to ETFS. For example, instead of buying and holding GOLD, one can purchase exposure to a GOLD ETF which is essentially a financial derivative of the asset that has certain advantages.
20:34
I would recommend the explanation offered by Fidelity:

https://www.fidelity.com/learning-center/investment-products/etf/what-are-etfs
Z
20:35
Zack
In reply to this message
thanks for the explanation Algo
A
20:36
ALGO
In reply to this message
If you need any more explanation feel free to ask, NASDAQ is just a vehicle of exchange that gives consumers acess to financial market products.
ŽM
20:37
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
sry, is this page still in development? there is no contact or info about the people behind this fund on the page
A
20:39
ALGO
Bitcoin's ETF was proposed to be one of the largest catalysts for the industry throughout 2017/18 and beyond. The ETF has failed to be approved despite multiple applications by different firms, usually citing the reason of the danger of 'market manipulation' as the key deterrent.
Z
20:40
Zack
It seems like USA isn't so friendly to making a Bitcoin ETF. The SEC keeps blocking it.
Is it not possible to do this in some other country?
A
20:40
ALGO
In reply to this message
The index was pushed forth by EXANTE a European based brokerage firm who reached out as a third party NASDAQ to have the index populate registed and populate on sites like Tradingview.
Z
20:41
Zack
maybe NASDAQ is a goal because it already has lots of investors signed up?
ŽM
20:41
Živojin Mirić
ok now it's more clear, so all indexes on exante are created by exante
A
20:41
ALGO
In reply to this message
It may be possible, however I believe the U.S. has the most liquid exchanges in the world by market captilization so an ETF therein would be the most significant.
I
20:42
Instinct
In reply to this message
It's live now? Can we keep track of how much money goes into it?
A
20:43
ALGO
In reply to this message
The index is live now, you can track it on Tradingview through this link: https://www.tradingview.com/symbols/NASDAQ-DEFX/
20:43
Please feel free to share
I
20:43
Instinct
In reply to this message
Nice 👍
Z
20:43
Zack
Can you tell me about the "fund will be launched on the EXANTE platform this Fall." from this page https://defix.fund

So this means trading will be available on this DEFX index using exante's tools, but it wont be an ETF on NASDAQ?
A
20:45
ALGO
In reply to this message
Yes, precisely. If EXANTE goes forward and launches a 'DEFX fund' on their brokerage platform consumers will be able to invest into the performance of the index by buying into the 'fund.'
Z
20:45
Zack
In reply to this message
sounds great
A
20:46
ALGO
In reply to this message
Technically, EXANTE already launched something akin to a Bitcoin ETF on their platforms through their 'Bitcoin Fund' - you can find more info on it here: https://exante.eu/lp/bitcoin-fund2/
20:46
It isn't listed as an ETF, but the idea is the same in execution.
Z
20:47
Zack
In reply to this message
very cool.
And how popular is this fund?
A
20:48
ALGO
In reply to this message
Unfortunatly I do not have the statistics on the liquidity that enters or has entered the fund. Based on Bitcoin price performance alone, I would say it is quite successful, but that does not necessarily gauge popularity.
KL
20:50
Karlis L
i see on that site "Since its inception, the fund has processed orders for more than $800 million. "
does not necessarily mean how much money is in it right now, but seems like it has been traded quite a lot
DV
20:50
Denis Voskvitsov
worth to mention one more crypto fund managed by EXANTE: https://xai.fund - altcoins index and fund. the index itself is also available on NASDAQ
I
20:51
Instinct
In reply to this message
$10 million buy order for VEO soon 😁
Z
20:52
Zack
wow, this is so exciting.
I might have to set up an Exante account to try it out.
MF
20:52
Mr Flintstone
wow veo is 20% of this index?
20:52
that is a lot esp when you compare market caps and liquidity of the other constituents
JS
21:56
Jon Snow
Very bullish on this index
Z
22:06
Zack
Does anyone here already have an account with exante? Care to comment on how much work it is to set up, and how well the tool works?
JS
22:09
Jon Snow
Not sure if they take retail’s money. Maybe only institutional?
Z
22:10
Zack
In reply to this message
what does retail/institutional mean?
From looking at their website, it seems like anyone willing to pay the $10k deposit can make an account
22:15
In reply to this message
I am able to do channel_solo_close txs from the light node now. So javascript, erlang, and chalang are all generating ids the same way.

I am going to remove some unused code and comments, and I am going to run tests on making bets with a centralized market.
Then we will be able to do the soft update to make the new id format mandatory.
JS
22:21
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
To put it simply, If it is retail, any individual can make an investment in the fund with small size check (like a thousand dollars), but if it is only offered to high net wealth or institutional, the buy in would be larger like 250k$ or more. The regulatory burden to run a fund eligible for retail is not insignificant, so most crypto fund doesn’t not accept retail money. This is just based on experience in the US. This fund is in Europe, so it may be different.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
28 August 2019
DV
00:49
Denis Voskvitsov
Hi guys!

As we've successfully completed previous big feature in MyVeoWallet funded via DAC, I'd like to propose a new DAC: https://forum.amoveo.io/t/dac-myveowallet-scalar-oracles-support/29

We'd like to improve support of scalar oracles: handle them as a single item in the list and accept bets as a number. Proposal contains more details and sample layouts.
Funding we're looking for is 16 VEO.

Feel free to discuss this DAC on the Amoveo Forum https://forum.amoveo.io/t/dac-myveowallet-scalar-oracles-support/29 and propose your offers there or in private chat.
00:50
Deadline is set to October 1st, but we'll start once we complete the funding goal, and it's possible the feature will be delivered earlier.
AK
01:10
A K
If you include a one button derivatives tool to e.g. offer BTC/USD hedging/trading, I'm in
DV
01:38
Denis Voskvitsov
that will be one of next big features we'll propose for sure
Alec Trevelyan invited Alec Trevelyan
Z
11:23
Zack
In reply to this message
I cleaned up the code and got rid of comments.
It looks like the centralized market is not functioning with the new scalar oracle. So I will get that working before we do the soft update.
Z
12:15
Zack
I think I am going to have to make changes to both the erlang central server, and to the javascript for communicating with that part of the server.

I was able to get the size of the smart contract from 3350 bytes to below 2800 bytes by simplifying the code. it is a lot more readable now.
Z
13:12
Zack
I am able to make bets and cancel bets with the central server.
13:18
there is still some issue with matching trades.
We are getting near, we should probably be ready for the soft update in the next day or two.
20:04
The company also has big ambitions for its Telegram Open Network, which it hopes will host new kinds of digital applications. There could be new kinds of sites, for example, where users tip one another for good comments, or make small bets on future events.
Z
20:05
Zack
they wont let me read it without making an account.
So I wont read it.
S
20:08
SSDD
In reply to this message
While Facebook’s big cryptocurrency plans have hit a wall with regulators, another big social network, Telegram, is charging ahead with its own digital currency.

Telegram has told investors that it is planning to send out the first batches of its coin, the Gram, within the next two months, according to three investors who have spoken with Telegram recently.

Telegram is also planning to make Gram digital wallets available to the 200 million to 300 million global users of Telegram’s messaging application, said the investors, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they had signed nondisclosure agreements.

Echoing Facebook’s hopes for its Libra token, which was unveiled this year, Telegram has said the Gram will become a new online currency and a way to move money anywhere in the world.

The scope of Telegram’s ambitions were evident in early 2018 when it raised $1.7 billion from big-name investors, including some of the largest venture capital firms in Silicon Valley.

Unlike Facebook, which released public plans for its digital money long before the first token was ready, Telegram has largely proceeded in secrecy. That opaqueness could amplify questions that it will face from government authorities when it makes its tokens public.

Regulators have grown increasingly concerned that coins like Gram and Libra could, like Bitcoin before them, be useful to drug dealers and money launderers.

The authorities in the United States have already moved to shut down smaller cryptocurrency projects, citing them for violations of securities law.

“Anyone trying to build this type of token system has to be careful on any number of levels with regulators,” said Richard Levin, who specializes in cryptocurrencies law at the law firm Polsinelli. “I suspect that regulators will take a very close look at this offering.”

A spokesman for Telegram did not respond to multiple requests for comment.

Telegram has always operated with a degree of disregard for the opinions of government authorities.

The company was created by Pavel Durov, a self-described libertarian who fled Russia after clashing with the government and being forced to sell off his first successful social network, VKontakte. Mr. Durov now moves between offices in the Middle East and Europe.

The Telegram app makes it easy to send encrypted messages between phones. That has made it popular both with terrorists and with government dissidents and protesters, most recently in Hong Kong.

ImageA man holding a picture of Pavel Durov, the founder of Telegram, during a March rally in Moscow to protest Russia’s tightening state control over the internet.
A man holding a picture of Pavel Durov, the founder of Telegram, during a March rally in Moscow to protest Russia’s tightening state control over the internet.CreditShamil Zhumatov/Reuters
Those qualities have made it unpopular with governments in Iran and Russia, which have tried to shut it down.

In its sales pitch for the Gram, which was viewed by The New York Times, Telegram has said the new digital money will operate with a decentralized structure similar to Bitcoin, which could make it easier to skirt government regulations.

Once Telegram releases the coins, it has said the coins will be governed by a decentralized network of computers that will give Telegram no control over how and where the coins can move.

“A whole new economy saturated with goods and services sold for cryptocurrency will be born,” the company said in a document sent to potential investors in 2017.

The plans for Gram were met with significant skepticism in the cryptocurrency community. Many of the largest venture capital firms that have invested in cryptocurrencies passed on the chance to invest in it.

Security researchers also raised concerns about the coin because of security problems Telegram has had — issues that could have much more significant consequences if money is involved.

But that did not deter the prominent American venture capital firms Benchmark and Lightspeed Capital, along with many Russian investors, from contributing to the Gram
20:08
In reply to this message
fund-raising round in 2018. Investors put up $1.7 billion in exchange for the promise of future Grams.

Telegram promised in legal documents that it would deliver Grams to investors by Oct. 31, 2019, or give back the money. The company is now racing to get the coins out before that deadline.

Some people will immediately be able to sell their Grams on cryptocurrency exchanges, though the earliest investors agreed to a holding period, according to investor documents viewed by The Times.

Facebook’s Libra is meant to be backed up by traditional currencies held in bank accounts, in order to stabilize the value of the digital coin. The Gram, in contrast, will be backed by nothing and gain or lose its value, like Bitcoin, by whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

Telegram has recently said that before the coins are sent out, a test version of the Gram network will be released within the next week or two, investors said.

The Grams are intended to make it possible to buy and sell other goods on Telegram.

The company also has big ambitions for its Telegram Open Network, which it hopes will host new kinds of digital applications. There could be new kinds of sites, for example, where users tip one another for good comments, or make small bets on future events.

But before any of that happens, Telegram will have to deal with the critics and skeptical regulators.

“I don’t see how on earth Telegram can possibly get something compliant with regulators in place by the end of October,” David Gerard, a cryptocurrency analyst and critic, recently wrote on his website.


You're welcome
?
20:11
🤠Anton
NYT is super hard on Gram. This article is a perfect example of biased journalistic.
P
20:11
P
In reply to this message
tl;dr
S
20:12
SSDD
In reply to this message
no one is forcing you
P
20:13
P
didnt say i was forced
MF
20:18
Mr Flintstone
most non crypto media publishes biased articles against coins in one way or another
A
20:28
Alfred
In reply to this message
Most media publish biased articles
Z
20:28
Zack
In reply to this message
thank you :)
Pavel Durov has created so many great things. I am excited to see how he will contribute to cryptocurrency.
Z
23:08
Zack
I think I found a problem in my paper about pos.

It is possible to have a coalition in pow where you can punish sub-coalitions.
It's called a "mining pool". Haha

So what do you think of this attack against pow:

I launch several competing mining pools, each running at a slight loss. All making up different fake excuses for how they can be more profitable and afford to pay more rewards to the miners.

Once my pools have majority control, I start doing soft fork updates to steal money from random small segments of the user base.
Miners outside my pools will start getting orphans.
I point them to the github that has the updates so they can start mining again.
Now 100% of miners are running code with my soft forks.

As long as I only steal from a small segment of users at a time, it will never be enough trouble to make the hard fork to fix the attack.
23:20
I guess my next paper will be about how pow isn't secure, and we should all just give in to the state. Haha
J
23:20
Jed
In reply to this message
😄
Z
23:55
Zack
In reply to this message
This attack isn't possible.
At the beginning it is doing a soft fork that limits block production to a particular handful of pools, and then later it is having other pools join in. Those two steps are contradictory.
So you really can't have stable coalitions in pow.
My paper about pos is still valid, to the best of my knowledge.
29 August 2019
Z
00:00
Zack
That sure scared me haha
MF
00:27
Mr Flintstone
another day another existential crisis
A
01:03
Alfred
In reply to this message
Well there was a real world example of that happening a few times
01:03
Not softforking but used for double spending
01:04
One pool used to run at 0% fee to attact people and gain majority hash
01:04
There's also sharkpool
01:04
Which mines exclusively empty blocks
01:04
On purpose
01:07
Not sure if still active
john blair invited john blair
jb
08:10
john blair
Can I mine VEO with a crappy cpu?
Z
08:11
Zack
In reply to this message
you wont find any VEO that way. it will make your computer act like a heater.
jb
08:11
john blair
Appreciate the honestu
jb
09:05
john blair
Zack is it you at the Malta blockchain summit doing the interviews?
09:06
For the "amoveo" youtube interviews* to clarify
Z
09:07
Zack
no, that is not me.
jb
09:08
john blair
It seems to be someone from exan.tech I believe
Z
09:10
Zack
yes, seems like it.
Z
10:02
Zack
In reply to this message
So I am running into a lot of trouble making markets on the central server.
This part of the code is getting old. our understanding of smart contracts has increased a lot since then. I wrote this stuff before the genesis block.

I am thinking it is better to let the central market be broken for now, so we can get this soft update through. and we can do a better re-write of the centralized market later.

If we do a re-write of the centralized market, then this time we can make it compatible with our p2p derivatives tools.
For example, we would like to be able to use otc_derivatives.html to settle a channel if the server goes offline or breaks the rules.
The fact that no tool currently exists for the current version, that means the current version is already broken, so it isn't a big loss if we temporarily drop support for this feature.
Z
11:27
Zack
In reply to this message
@denis_voskvitsov @Jbreezy0
What do you guys think? is this going to be a big issue if we temporarily stop supporting the central markets?
MF
11:38
Mr Flintstone
wouldn’t the code still work, it just wouldn’t support betting on oracles that aren’t on chain yet?
Z
11:38
Zack
no.
11:39
it would not work at all
11:39
but I think no one is using this feature lately anyway?
11:43
It will take me the same amount of time to get the central markets working with the new smart contract either way.

our options are:
1) we can activate the soft fork in the next 24 hours. central market will not work for at least the next 3 or 4 days.
2) we have to wait at least 3 or 4 more days until we can activate the soft fork.

And to be clear, this soft fork is just enabling bets on oracles that do not yet exist at the consensus and smart contract levels.
We still will need some updates to the javascript interface to make it convenient to generate the oracle ID of a not yet existing oracle so you can bet on it.
11:45
I guess option (3) is I will make new branches on github to share this work until it is ready to merge into master branch without breaking anything.
So anyone else doing development could test out either version by pulling the relevant branch.
11:45
I guess option (3) is best.
11:49
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/tree/off-chain-oracle here is the new branch for the full node.
11:53
Deleted invited Deleted Account
DV
17:32
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
though breaking working things is generally a bad idea, I guess in that particular case it won't hurt too much

anyway, we might need to ask amoveobook guys if it would break their site, as it's only project I know using central markets.
C
18:20
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
👍
C
19:00
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
I just committed a bit of veo to the DAC :) my first interaction with smart contracts and state channels on Veo :)
DV
19:02
Denis Voskvitsov
thanks Chris! with each contribution we're getting closer to new useful features in MVW
Z
20:32
Zack
In reply to this message
ill finish up in these new branches, and then merge when it is non-breaking.
That way I am not delaying any work on MVW, and we don't have to break anything
DV
20:33
Denis Voskvitsov
thanks. we'll try to keep it up with new implementation anyway
S
21:21
SSDD
A
Amoveo News 29.08.2019 21:10:39
This week on #3Question, we hear from Will Jennings, Head of Public Engagement at PredictIt.

Read it here: https://medium.com/amoveo/3questions-the-future-of-prediction-markets-with-will-jennings-76969982c311?sk=0383f10c07dba84a98855cde7fccf448
PY invited PY
A
21:51
ALGO
A
Amoveo News 28.08.2019 20:37:23
New video with Eman Pulis CEO of SiGMA & Malta Blockchain Summit. Eman shared his opinion on how the crypto community survived the ICO hype and what is next on the road.

Watch the interview here: https://youtu.be/R53H2_xLGo4
The Hatter invited The Hatter
30 August 2019
五讲四美 invited 五讲四美
Drey Belyy invited Drey Belyy
Z
21:09
Zack
I reviewed Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is the oldest and most popular cryptocurrency. We can learn a lot from Bitcoin.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/bitcoin.md
Š
21:36
Šea
In reply to this message
hi Zack, i think you made a mistake in your Bitcoin review
21:37
in Futarchy model paragraph there should be capital letter in the begining
Deleted invited Deleted Account
31 August 2019
b
06:02
bjorn
Is veo not trading on graviex anymore?
Z
06:03
Zack
I think it was never on graviex
Z
09:52
Zack
In reply to this message
So I have been digging deeper into this code.
I think that there was a bug in the old version of the smart contract, and I fixed it on the rewrite, and the central market's operation was dependent on that bug.

So it will take some more time to get this operational again, but the final result will be a product that is even more secure than the old version.

The problem is like this. There is a tool that scans each channel state to see if we have evidence that can be used to update the channel state.
Currently, we know that evidence is valid if it results in a channel state that can be immediately published on-chain to get our money out, without having to wait for our partner to help.

But for a market, sometimes a trade gets matched, but the final result of that trade is still not known. So the channel cannot yet be settled.
We want to update the channel state from having an unmatched trade to having a matched trade.
I
11:17
Instinct
In reply to this message
I think withdrawals haven't been working for ages, they need to update their node
13:54
Ouroboros was a easy review.
Their white paper is already based in math, so I didn't have to spend time trying to convert ad-hoc designs into math.
It is well suited to analysis with the tools that we have been developing.
Z
14:17
Zack
I'm trying to forward the review to someone on their team before I publish it more publicly
14:17
Hopefully I will get less hate this time.
S
17:22
Sy
😂
h
17:22
hewwo
3000 words
17:23
No real contents
17:23
Another good paper lol
A
18:05
Alfred
In reply to this message
"All the proofs in Ouroboros might be correct, but they are proving a worthless model."
18:05
Should we bet? 😂
Z
19:50
Zack
Someone messaged me saying they are from Cardano, and that I should make sure not to publish this review for the next 7 days, that someone will be able to contact me to discuss it then.
haha
ŽM
19:50
Živojin Mirić
🙊
B
20:00
Ben
you should bribe them, an alternative attack vector
Z
20:52
Zack
I am hopeful that someone at Cardano will be able to show that my arguments about PoS are false.
It is depressing to think that we could never have PoS. It is such a big limitation on the space of possible smart contracts.
20:53
In order to effectively develop Amoveo, it is important for me to know whether or not PoS is possible, and under what conditions.
21:00
I emailed charles directly
AndroniusX invited AndroniusX
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
1 September 2019
Z
10:03
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/algorand.md
Review of Algorand. I am going to try and contact someone on the team first before I publish it more widely.
10:05
I think algorand pre-banned me from their telegram? or maybe it is just too full and can't fit more people.
Z
10:50
19 link clicks, 3 likes.
possibly my worst ratio ever.
I guess I shouldn't have tagged cardano when I posted that.
10:51
or maybe it is a good sign, since outrage drives viral sharing
Z
12:32
Zack
Most people like to make their posts during the morning on a week day.
But I often try to make my posts at a time when I expect the leaders or moderators of a project I am reviewing to be asleep.

This way, people will see my post, and they will have questions, and since everyone is asleep, they keep forwarding the questions to different people.

They keep forwarding links to Amoveo's github to different people.
12:50
Deleted Account
i just posted the algorand review to algorand telegram channel
12:50
and code review channel
Z
12:51
Zack
In reply to this message
I wanted to get a more private review before we share this document so publicly
12:51
Deleted Account
oh i didnt know
Z
12:52
Zack
and I want to be able to communicate effectively with the Cardano people for now.
Once the Cardano people cool off, then we should publish the Algorand paper more publicly.
12:52
Deleted Account
i posted alreadt
12:52
y
Z
12:52
Zack
so remove it, and leave a comment saying it was a mistake and isn't ready for publish yet
12:52
giving people a taste and then taking it away can be a good strategy too. so they ask for more.
12:53
Deleted Account
ok
13:12
Deleted Account
hi guys
13:12
just one question
13:13
is AE main net started in 2018?
Z
13:13
Zack
this is a forum to discuss the Amoveo blockchain. The genesis block of Amoveo was on 2 March 2018.
13:14
our currency is called VEO.
13:17
I don't know if AE has a main net or not. Maybe try asking on one of their forums.
13:17
Deleted Account
ok
B
13:46
Ben
the cardano review is more or less what you say about any POS Blockrain right? hte problem of bribing the staker
Z
13:48
Zack
The game theory is the same.

Not many people will discuss my pos research with me.
So I read about projects like cardano, and I re-explain the same concepts using their perspective.

This is my attempt to get professionals to review my work without having to pay anyone's salary.
13:49
It is polite to explain your idea in terms that your audience is already familiar with.
Communication is more effective this way.
13:50
In order to know if my strategy for designing blockchains is good, I need to find a way to communicate it to someone else.
13:52
It is boring and repetitive for people involved in amoveo to see the same concepts over and over.
B
13:52
Ben
yeah sure, i don't question your motivation, just wanted to make sure i did not miss a new Vector/Argument
13:53
even tho i think the math for the Destruction of the Blockchain is a bit to simple.
13:53
but maybe in such docutments it's better to be simple
Z
13:53
Zack
The bitcoin review had some new stuff in it
B
13:53
Ben
to be illustrative
13:53
oh i missed that one
B
13:55
Ben
thx
14:05
Deleted Account
Ioc bnned Zack for questioning POS. Bad attitude overthere
Z
16:20
Zack
I think big projects handle criticism better than small ones.
Maybe that is how they got so big.
16:20
or maybe you just get accustomed to it, if you are part of a big project.
B
17:10
Ben
is your Bitcoin Review done? missing kind of a conclusion
17:17
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Yea risk of being embarrassed in public, in channels are a concern for alot devs who are not really devs
Z
21:44
Zack
In reply to this message
Nothing open source is ever done. If you have an idea on how to improve it, we can make changes.
do you want to suggest a conclusion?
B
21:52
Ben
nope, not up to me, thats more your game theory thing ;)
2 September 2019
Z
02:34
Zack
The Cardano community has a culture that cares about math proofs. I wonder if my review will have any impact on the price.
C
02:34
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
it also has a serial coin creator at the helm if i'm not mistaken
02:34
Charles Hoskinson
Z
02:36
Zack
Is he at the helm?
or is he like a mascot?
C
02:37
Chris 🍞
Not sure what he's doing for the project right now, but he is the founder. that always made me reluctant to take a good dive in the rest
Z
05:15
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/other_blockchains/RCO.md
Any suggestions on how to improve this?

Using an ICO to pay for soft fork attacks, profit from the attack is used to pay the people who donated to the ICO.
I
05:19
Instinct
In reply to this message
Could you use a dac in conduction with the rco? That the soft fork happens successfully
Z
05:20
Zack
the rco can theoretically make any change to the consensus mechanism that you could want.
It is a matter of getting the right developers together to build it, or finding the right thing to copy.
I
05:21
Instinct
In reply to this message
I meant more of an insurance for investors in case it doesn't go to plan
Z
05:22
Zack
we could use a dominant assurance contract. so the developers only get paid if the exploit they build us actually works
I
05:22
Instinct
👍
Z
05:23
Zack
that is part of what makes amoveo such a great platform for these kinds of attacks
I
05:23
Instinct
How difficult do you think one of these attacks would be to pull off? & time scale?
05:24
It would be a huge event if you successfully crowd funded for a major blockchain attack then changed their consensus mechanism
Z
05:25
Zack
if we can find a disgruntled ex-developer with experience programming that blockchain, it would be a lot easier
05:25
In reply to this message
yeah, it would be pretty cool
I
05:28
Instinct
I wonder would there be legal implications but I guess the way around that is by remaining anonymous & using a DAC
Z
05:29
Zack
We followed every rule of the open source protocol
I
05:29
Instinct
In reply to this message
Yes it's very interesting though
C
05:31
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
Point 2 has a weakness
Z
05:31
Zack
and look, this isn't an attack. this is a rescue.
Why would the law be upset that we rescued these people who were going to lose everything?
The fact that we could take over their blockchain is proof that they could have lost everything without our help.
C
05:32
Chris 🍞
Once you start to explain the vulnerability, people can either try to be quicker then you or notify said coin representative
I
05:32
Instinct
In reply to this message
True
Z
05:33
Zack
In reply to this message
I have already explained the vulnerability.
It is politically impossible for them to give up PoS and switch to PoW for example.
It is politically impossible for Augur to abandon Rep.

No one would invest in their products if they treated their customers like that.
05:33
Even if we develop the rescue, they still cant change their ways.
I
05:35
Instinct
When first rco?
Z
05:35
Zack
I could see a PoS developer being thankful that we are freeing them from their burden of maintaining something that would have eventually failed otherwise.
05:36
I think I am not the right person to lead an RCO. I am happy to make amoveo smart contracts to do whatever people are interested in.
I
05:39
Instinct
If this did happen to a project that solely relies on PoS as one of their major selling points, id guess the market value would tank & maybe it wouldn't be a good investment
Z
05:39
Zack
if the community already exists, it could still haven decent value.
Currency gets a lot of its value from network effects.
05:40
and this is freeing up their developers to focus on new selling points
05:41
How could patching a security vulnerability make it less valuable? it will be objectively better after we patch the vulnerability.
I
05:41
Instinct
Actually yeah as long as the rco isn't looking to raise too much it could work
05:41
In reply to this message
Panic would spread
Z
05:42
Zack
We could raise $100k to pay developers, and distribute $10 million worth of Ada.
So as long as the price of Ada doesn't drop more than 100x, it will be profitable.
05:42
I have a feeling the developers would be tempted to self-fund it with that price ratio
I
05:42
Instinct
It's a very cool concept for sure
Z
05:48
Zack
Once the developers have the exploit, they might decide that instead of stealing 1% of the Ada and distributing it, they will steal 5%, keep 4% and distribute 1% to the crowdfunders.

I have a feeling that we can't trustlessly attack a blockchain, since the attack is breaking consensus by definition.
05:48
once the exploit exists, then anyone can do it. there might be multiple people all trying at the same time
A
05:49
Alfred
There's no way price moves unfortunately because that would imply current price of most blockchains is related to their fundamentals lol
Z
05:50
Zack
haha
05:52
All ICO are trustful. So I think people will not mind that RCO are also trustful.
A
05:59
Alfred
"then people who donate to the RCO will receive real ADA upon the mission's success."

1- where do these ADA come from? Just market buying?

2- I think you'll successfully end up upsetting someone from their team at the very least :')
Z
06:03
Zack
with a soft fork attack, to print new ADA it is like this:

I buy up some amount of ADA. I own P portion of all ADA.

We take a snapshot of the distribution of Ada holders at the beginning of the attack.

We make a new rule. Every account that was included in the snapshot, Q portion of the money in their account is usable, and the rest is frozen.
the only exception is my account. I can move all P.

So now, my account is relatively worth P/Q, and since Q can be an arbitrary number, I can make my account worth as much a portion of the total Ada as I would like.
06:04
if Q = 0.1, then that means my money is 10x more valuable.
if Q = 1/1000 then my money is 1000x more valuable.
A
06:05
Alfred
Yea that's step 4 my bad, th additional explaination help tho
Z
06:06
Zack
it will be confusing, because maybe it used to be 100 000 000 satoshis per coin, and now it is only 1000 satoshis per coin
A
06:06
Alfred
Increasing supply could arguably lower the price tho which is kinda a snake biting it's tail situation
Z
06:07
Zack
if we don't rescue them, they could lose everything. so I think it is reasonable for us to take a small fee.
06:13
It is like we are aggressively helping people who just want to be left alone.
A
06:14
Alfred
In reply to this message
Makes sense but then we shouldn't be promising a price increase but rather a chance to not lose everything ahah
06:15
Would be a shame to be making an ICO type of deal upon false promises wouldn't it? :D
Z
06:16
Zack
haha
06:25
I am walking a fine line between keeping up the friendly "rescue" language, and making it sound like something exciting people would want to click on.
A
06:49
Alfred
In reply to this message
Typical pitch would be "RCOs: a disruptive way to upgrade any blockchain using bleeding edge soft fork technology

An opportunity to create a more secure financial environment for the unbanked cryptocurrency speculators and earning interests for it"

But I think the pitch presented in the RCO paper is already pretty good
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
19:27
Zack
Cardano is down 4.5% vs bitcoin since I posted my review.
It is the worst performing cryptocurrency in the top 20 for the last 24 hours.
Š
19:32
Šea
In reply to this message
You think your review impacted the price?
Z
19:33
Zack
I don't know.
Cardano's culture does care a lot more about math and formal proofs in comparison to anyone else I have reviewed.
3 September 2019
K
03:44
K
https://thebitcoin.pub/t/review-of-ouroboros-the-pos-consensus-mechanism-behind-cardano/58544 apparently your proof has been disproven. gonna wait for him to post the link
JS
04:11
Jon Snow
It would be interesting to see if they will actually post a link
I
04:42
Instinct
In reply to this message
It's prob just their whitepaper where they address bribery. Zack's argument still stands imo, it is just the likelihood of occurring that is up for debate
Z
04:49
Zack
I hope they do find a way to get PoS working.
I would love to have a tool like that available to us.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
D
11:13
Devender
Z
11:15
Zack
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/polkadot-iou/ wow, over $1 billion market cap. I didn't know it was so popular.
yeah, I should probably review this.