Amoveo ♥🧿
13 September 2019
18:29
on-demand price is higher. $13.2/hour
Z
18:29
Zack
So can you rent 200 f1 for $1200 an hour or not?
AK
18:29
Alexey Kanakhin
You should ask Amazon, not me :)
PG
18:54
Pedro Gracia
In reply to this message
There are READMEs only...
Z
18:54
Zack
In reply to this message
Search the page for "releases"
18:55
There is no source
18:55
Only the compiled binary for your board
PG
18:57
Pedro Gracia
I see
18:57
Hashrate: 1500 MH/s - 4% devfee
18:57
Donate to my work (or using my software) and i will work to other project in future (Cairnsmore5)

Best way to contact me is on Amoveo discord chanel

if it is not profitable for me, I will stop work on FPGA projects, work is very hard and complicated
18:57
it's ok too
AK
19:31
A K
In reply to this message
also comino.com and they used to run a veo pool afaik
AK
19:45
Alexey Kanakhin
In reply to this message
Actually you may buy this one: https://www.hashaltcoin.com/en/batches/11
82.6 GH/s for $2450. so 37.5 TH/s will be about $1,113,000
Z
19:46
Zack
great, that is a much better price
14 September 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
12:16
Zack
I did more testing on installing Amoveo, and I think I found a error in the installation process.
It seems like the tool to automatically add your IP to the list is no longer working.
12:17
So I updated the docs for installation to explain that you might need to do this manually.
12:23
This could be why HitBTC had issues. So I emailed them about this. Hopefully we can get it fixed soon.
12:33
One could build similar interface with VEO but using better oracles system
Z
12:33
Zack
can it be used for parasites?
12:34
In reply to this message
good idea
12:35
although, the eth bets wouldn't be as secure as VEO bets.
Because if the oracle cause the blockchain to split, Ethereum might not know which side of the split to follow.
12:35
it's probably not an issue
SS
12:38
Spike Spiegel
DeFi is small % of the ETH - no way that anybody would fork ETH or bribe oracles yet
12:38
Too much too lose, too little to win
Z
12:38
Zack
I thought you were suggesting using Amoveo's oracle instead of price feeds in this UMA product
AK
18:57
A K
Dexaran on Twitter: "What attacker did: 1. Rented a huge amount of CPU and NET at #EOSREX resource exchange. 2. Staked CPU&NET for (1) himself and (2) attacked contract. 3. Congested the network. 4. Initiated some transactions to the attacked contract…
https://mobile.twitter.com/Dexaran/status/1172663560926896128?s=19
18:58
PoS failure
Z
19:46
Zack
In reply to this message
Very cool. Thanks for sharing
15 September 2019
Z
01:03
Zack
The experimental branch is working well.
I am thinking I will make the current master branch into the "legacy" branch, and make experimental into the "master" branch.
S
01:24
Sy
👍
Z
01:29
Zack
then we can make a new experimental branch to do something exciting. Maybe syncing the blocks in reverse order, or storing the 2 most recent potential blocks for mining pools.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
14:17
Zack
Sy helped me fix the bug that was probably causing problems for HitBTC.
14:18
I merged the experimental branch into Amoveo.
When you update, you are probably going to want to clone to a new directory. Because dependencies changed, and file formats changed.
14:19
you need ubuntu 18 for the new version. 16 wont work.
14:19
the "legacy" branch holds the old version of Amoveo
Chaz invited Chaz
Z
21:25
Zack
im thinking next we should focus on getting sortition chains working.
21:27
One part that is kind of awkward, lets say a sortition chain is existing. How can you trustlessly put your money from the Amoveo main chain into the sortition chain?
21:28
It seems to me that you need to make a channel with the sortition chain operator, and then do a lightning payment from the regular channel to a new channel inside the sortition chain.
21:29
So really, moving money from the Amoveo main chain into the sortition chain is basically the same process as moving money from bitcoin main chain into the sortition chain.
21:30
oh, we can at least get rid of the dependence on channels.
You could make another sortition chain, and swap the money in your sortition chain for some money in someone else's sortition chain.
21:32
Also, in about 10 hours we can start doing some more interesting futarchy experiments. Because we can bet using oracles that do not yet exist.
PG
21:35
Pedro Gracia
wow, i don't understand anything 😊
21:35
some place to learn about this?
Z
21:35
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/sortition_chains.md this is the document about sortition chains
PG
21:36
Pedro Gracia
ok, thanks!
21:36
oh, great document. It's large.
Z
21:37
Zack
In Ethereum they talk about "sharding"

This is kind of like that
21:38
except ethereum is only becoming 256x more scalable.
if sortition chains work, we can put many sortition chains inside every sortition chain. It scales exponentially. We could support trillions of people.
21:38
A sortition chain is like a state channel, with a couple extra features added on.
PG
21:39
Pedro Gracia
it's very important then...
Z
21:39
Zack
if we can get it to work, I think it would be good for Amoveo
PG
21:43
Pedro Gracia
Is there any chance it won't work?
Z
21:46
Zack
There are probably still mistakes in the design.

The key difference that makes sortition chains so much simpler than other sharding strategies is that we use probabilitic value. This allows us to have guarantees about how long the on-chain part of the data will be.

It seems like any exponential sharding strategy is going to need to use probabilistic values.

So even if we do have to make changes along the way, I think we are on the right path towards what we want.
21:46
so coins inside a sortition chain are like lottery tickets that have a small probability of being valuable.
PG
21:49
Pedro Gracia
uhm... I'll follow this feature close
Z
21:50
Zack
Other blockchain compete to have the very smallest transaction size.
Amoveo txs are 10x bigger than typical tx sizes.

But it is ok to have much bigger txs, if you only need to make 100 txs per day to support a trillion people's finances.

Our txs are so big because we store such big fraud proofs with them.
And those fraud proofs are what will enable us to scale so effectively.
PG
21:52
Pedro Gracia
sounds good really
16 September 2019
Z
00:43
Zack
So I think the first step should be to build the on-chain txs that are involved in sortition chains, then we can slowly build up use-cases for these new txs until we deliver all the sortition chain goals.
00:46
the biggest sub-goals of delivering sortition chains are probably:
1) on-chain tx types.
2) the database and protocol for syncing sortition blocks.
3) the merkel tree database that stores bits of chalang code at every node of the tree.
00:47
maybe we will build a lottery application as a easier sub-goal on the way to achieving sortition chains.
01:01
thinking about (3).
How can we make sure that the merkel tree stays more-or-less balanced?
Getting the financial incentives right is easy.
But I need to actually program an implementation, and I don't want an attacker to be able to make lots of tiny sortition chains with me to cause my tree to become unbalanced.
01:07
Maybe the trick is to charge different fees to users who request bets that make the tree less balanced, and refusing any bet where the process of resolving on-chain would be bigger than 1/5th of a block or so.
01:09
An interesting property of sortition chains.
the cost of operating them is linearly dependent on how many block periods have sortition txs occurring in them.
So if we could get everyone to make all their txs for the day at the same time of day, then the cost of operating that sortition chain would be like 1/130th as much.
01:17
I think I found a bug in the sortition chain design.
An attacker requests to make a bitcoin lightning payment to buy some value in the sortition chain.
But then they don't reveal the secret, so the bitcoin never get sent.

Now the sortition chain is in a state saying that the attacker will take the money, only if the secret has been revealed.

The sortition chain operator cannot prove that the secret has not been revealed.
So no one else is willing to buy this part of the value inside the sortition chain again. Because they cannot be sure if the attacker is owning that value or not.
01:18
even worse, it looks like this same problem occurs if we try to use hash-locking to connect different sortition smart contracts together.
01:23
I think we can overcome this issue by dividing up the state transition into many tiny hashlock contracts.
So if the attacker refuses to reveal a secret, he has only made a small fraction of the value in the sortition chain unusable.
01:25
It kind of reminds me of what you would do to make a thermodynamic process reversible.
01:31
The problem is that it takes several block confirmations to add more value to a sortition chain.
If we are dividing an update into 100 small steps, we don't want to have to wait 3 blocks per step. That would mean it would take more than 2 days just to update the contract.
01:35
I think we can solve the BTC-VEO case by having the sortition chain operator always be the one who generates the secrets.
but can we also do this for the case of 2 sortition chains connected together?
01:39
A basic protocol that we like to use with smart contracts is the trustless coinflip protocol.
Where both participants commit to some entropy, and then reveal the entropy, and the entropy is used to determine who wins the contract.

It seems like this kind of contract can't work with sortition chains, because if one of the participants decides not to reveal entropy, then the other participant ends up having dead inaccessible money in their sortition chain.
01:40
So maybe the solution is to rely more heavily on oracles.
We can use an oracle to generate the entropy instead, and once the oracle resolves, all that info is available to both of us.
01:44
One of the most basic things we could want to do is to trustlessly move money from one sortition chain into another.
All this information is private, we can't use an oracle to moderate this.
01:58
it is starting to seem impossible to move money between sortition chains.
[
02:07
[Riki]
Zack tldr please! Im lost
Z
02:19
Zack
if you and I have 2 channels together, you can use hashlocking to trustlessly move your money from one channel to the other.
Only you and I can own money in each channel, so we are the only 2 people who care whether the secret has been revealed or not.

If we had 2 sortition chains together, you can't use hashlocking to move your money between the chains.
If we tried using hashlocking, I could refuse to reveal the secret that makes the payment occur.
So the part of the money in your sortition chain that you were going to receive from me, now you can't prove to anyone whether that money is controlled by you or me. So no one will accept a payment from you of that money, because they can't know if the payment is valid.
Similarly, the part of the money you were going to send to me, now no one can tell whether that money is yours or mine. So you can't spend it to anyone.
Z
02:42
Zack
So instead of revealing the pre-image of a hash, I could make an Oracle question like "will the pre image of this hash be published on this Web page by this date?"
And the Oracle question could have a resolution that is more soon than the result of the sortition chain.

Now that we support using oracles that haven't been created on-chain, something like this should be feasible.
02:45
Instead of the Oracle, we could have the smart contract reference an on-chain proof of existence tree.

That way we don't have to wait a week for the Oracle to resolve.
The attacker has so many hours to publish the preimage on-chain, and then the smart contract becomes invalid.
02:47
If they reveal the secret off-chain, then we are both incentivized to just update the sortition contracts normally and not bother paying fees to publish any evidence on-chain
02:55
For this to work, everything in the proof of existence Merkel tree needs a record of the block height at which it was recorded
03:02
So maybe I'll set up the proof of existence tree first.
We used to have one of those before.
03:03
This time we want to be able to look up the preimage using the commitment as the key
Z
03:30
Zack
The problem with having people report this info on-chain is that it doesn't scale exponentially, like everything else does.
So eventually this will become the bottleneck of scalability.
03:31
but maybe this is the best we can do.
03:33
Like, what if the operator of the biggest sortition chain decided to stop acknowledging when anyone revealed secrets.
Then everyone would be competing to get their evidence on-chain, and the block would fill up.
03:33
I guess the operator wouldn't be incentivized to do this, since he is the one suffering most damage from the attack.
03:34
so, what if an attacker made many sortition contracts with the biggest operator, and refused to acknowledge the secrets that the operator reveals?
The operator wont be able to fit all the evidence they need inside the blocks.
03:37
I guess this means that whoever is the bigger sortition chain operator, they should not be the one generating the hashlock commitments.
That way, worst case scenario is the big operator attacking themselves.
03:45
It has been 12 days since I emailed the cardano game theory specialists, and they still have not been able to come up with a response.
ŽM
04:19
Živojin Mirić
Good
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MF
07:50
Mr Flintstone
here is a real live bet that, if you accept it, approximates taking 10 dollars and shorting BSV for the next week at 1x leverage:

oracle information:
https://pastebin.com/nwDNGZHH

trade offer:
https://paste.ee/p/ImxrL
07:52
well, looks like the trade offer got taken down from pastebin haha
Z
07:52
Zack
I wonder why they thought it was spam?
07:53
maybe write a message above it explaining what it is and why it should exist
07:53
or just share the file directly to this group
MF
07:53
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
this trade is hedged to USD
07:55
it takes advantage of the new feature where you can bet without oracles being on chain, so it cost nothing to make
08:02
now you can actually see the trade offer. i kind of like that website better, it has a copy button
A
19:25
ALGO
In reply to this message
Could you be a bit more specific? Do you mean liquid markets for trading VEO? Or liquid markets for forming and executing trades/bets built on Amoveo/its wallet?
Z
19:25
Zack
qtrade is probably the best exchange
17 September 2019
Z
00:54
Zack
You can use the light node to make bet offers, and other people can use the light node to accept them.
00:54
It's javascript so it runs in your browser
00:56
Mr flintstone published one yesterday to try out the new feature of betting using oracles that don't yet exist.
But the gui doesn't have all the bugs worked out, so it isn't displaying correctly.
00:58
An issue with augur is that the rep needs to be valuable in order for augur to be secure.
So the trading fees need to be high enough to pay rep holders to keep the price of rep high enough.
And this makes it too expensive compared to other oracle designs. It also creates a vulnerability to parasite contracts.
01:01
If you buy $0.00033 of Veo for every $1 of eth/rep. I guess you are hedged between us and augur.
01:02
I don't know
01:03
No one can
01:03
We have governance to choose
01:10
So far they have been lowering the reward a lot
01:10
From 1 to 0.15 in less than 2 years
MF
01:17
Mr Flintstone
what is kbc
01:22
amoveo doesn’t use voting
01:23
the assumption is that users value the honest version of events
Z
01:25
Zack
it is like how in the DAO hack, since the money was locked still so long, the community could make decisions to redistribute that money.
01:26
Amoveo's oracle locks the money long enough for the community to decide what is right.
MF
01:27
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
we fork the chain if that happens
01:27
either soft or hard
K
04:34
K
Why would someone use amoveo over a trusted oracle or third party?
04:35
I can’t think of any massive uses for it. I trust that a reputable company will rightfully give me money if I win a bet
GE
04:39
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
They keep an option not to do so - this option is one sided
MF
04:48
Mr Flintstone
why would someone use bitcoin over a trusted third party
K
05:01
K
In reply to this message
Bitcoin requires third parties unless your some techno genius or a government
05:03
I feel like bitcoin being a SoV is different. There can never be more than 21mil and it is proven. I just don’t see in what scenarios I’d choose to use amoveo over a third party
MF
05:04
Mr Flintstone
who exactly do I trust when I sign and broadcast a bitcoin transaction
K
05:04
K
In reply to this message
People who created the wallet
I
05:04
Instinct
In reply to this message
Well Amoveo is a lot earlier in development
MF
05:04
Mr Flintstone
ok if it’s closed source but you can choose to use an open source wallet too
K
05:05
K
You’re trusting that github is sending you the right file too
05:05
To download
I
05:05
Instinct
& you're banking on futarchy being successful for long term veo success
MF
05:05
Mr Flintstone
not really, you can checksum
05:05
you’d be surprised what you can learn if you have no choice
05:06
most people don’t need to use bitcoin
K
05:06
K
The average joe won’t be able to do any of that. Sorry for bringing this point up but I’m more interested in amoveo
I
05:06
Instinct
In reply to this message
Do you think a fixed supply will be important for veo?
K
05:07
K
What scenario would you use amoveo over a trusted third 🎉
I
05:07
Instinct
At some point in the future*
MF
05:07
Mr Flintstone
I think whether a fixed supply is programmed into the consensus rules or not it won’t change the emission schedule
05:08
it’ll probably just go down over time regardless
I
05:08
Instinct
In reply to this message
Where derivatives are outlawed for one
MF
05:09
Mr Flintstone
bets can be offered on amoveo for better odds than anywhere else at the limit
K
05:09
K
In reply to this message
How big of a market is this?
MF
05:09
Mr Flintstone
there are no compliance costs, no brick and mortar costs etc
GE
05:09
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Any working use case?
05:10
Lets bet on something
MF
05:10
Mr Flintstone
you can today sell sports bets at better odds than bookies on amoveo, and make more profit than them
GE
05:10
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Where
MF
05:10
Mr Flintstone
the UX is bad still, but this isn’t impossible to overcome
GE
05:11
Gatis Eglitis
Can we make otc bet on something ?
05:11
C2C
I
05:11
Instinct
In reply to this message
Idk tbh but most people are excluded due to the amount of capital needed to participate too so very big
MF
05:12
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
yeah
GE
05:12
Gatis Eglitis
How
05:12
I bet 0.1 veo
05:13
How oracles systemize and verify our c2c bet idea?
05:13
Can we bet on anything?
MF
05:13
Mr Flintstone
do you want me to walk you through it
05:14
In reply to this message
Anything that is public information
GE
05:15
Gatis Eglitis
Would be nice if we could structure a deal here
05:15
In chat gui
05:15
That would be massive use case
05:16
Should be easy to use
05:16
In reply to this message
Yes
Maxim invited Maxim
GE
05:18
Gatis Eglitis
19th of sept there is SNB decision about lowering CHF interest rate
05:18
1. Outcome - yes lower
05:18
2. Outcome - not lower
MF
05:19
Mr Flintstone
cool
GE
05:19
Gatis Eglitis
Lets bet just for fun
GE
05:19
Gatis Eglitis
0.1 veo
MF
05:19
Mr Flintstone
you can either use this, or download it and use locally
GE
05:19
Gatis Eglitis
Tx
MF
05:19
Mr Flintstone
but let me know once you’ve loaded a key in with veo and clicked sync with network
05:22
obviously don’t put in a valuable private key in that website
Z
05:34
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/trust_theory.md

If there is someone you are trusting not to steal, you need to pay them enough so it is worth it for them not to steal.

They need to think that the long term profit of maintaining reputation and taking fees is better than the short term profit of robbing you now.

So, more trustful product is more expensive to use.
GE
05:40
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Is there a user frendlier way to make a bet?
Z
05:41
Zack
Someone else could make the contract, and you just accept it.
GE
05:42
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Tx
05:44
In reply to this message
Can i bet stable coin or only veo?
05:44
EURS for example
Z
05:45
Zack
All the bets are priced in Veo. But the bets are in a turing complete language. So you can hedge out the Veo risk, and make something that works as if it was priced in euro
GE
05:46
Gatis Eglitis
Hedging would work only if i knew the face value of outcome ;)
05:46
0 or win
Z
05:46
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/using_oracle.md
Here is documentation for making oracles for contracts like that.
05:46
In reply to this message
You can ask the Oracle for that info.
MF
05:58
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
not right now
DV
05:59
Denis Voskvitsov
we're working on p2p contracts marketplace in myveowallet
DACs should be available in October, after that (with another DAC funding possible) it'll support another types of contracts.
MF
06:23
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
it really isn’t too hard to use though it might seem intimidating
GE
06:36
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Not human readable
06:36
I would expect something like this
06:37
1. Veo wallett address
06:37
2. Bet amount
06:37
3. Bet subject
06:38
4. Deadline - date.
Z
06:38
Zack
some people like to do binary bets where one party wins all the money.
Other times they like to do scalar bets. like a CFD, so they can create an asset that stays the same value as USD for example.
06:39
You also need to specify a price that the trade is occurring at.
GE
06:39
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Sure
Z
06:39
Zack
if it is scalar, you need to specify the amount of leverage.
GE
06:39
Gatis Eglitis
Leverage?
Z
06:40
Zack
yes. for example, I could have a contract with double leverage against bitcoin. so if BTC increases in value by 5%, then my contract increases in value 10%.
GE
06:40
Gatis Eglitis
Limited by deposit in veo though - correct?
06:41
Cant exceed down payment
Z
06:41
Zack
the amount of leverage and the ratio of amount of money we each put in the contract are logically related
06:41
this is often thought of in terms of the "margins" of the contract
06:42
how far the price can move until the contract stops having an effect
GE
06:42
Gatis Eglitis
Now we get back to trusted party problem - more complicated the code - more trust one has to put into coder
Z
06:43
Zack
We have a binary contract interface that is pretty simple, a stablecoin interface that assumes leverage of 1, so you can make synthetic assets, and a scalar interface that gives you total control to make any bet possible.
GE
06:43
Gatis Eglitis
Same trust issue as with bank
06:43
U either trust institution or coder
Z
06:44
Zack
bitcoin software is far more complicated than Amoveo.
06:44
it takes much more training to be able to read bitcoin vs reading Amoveo.
MF
06:45
Mr Flintstone
saying it isn’t human readable is pretty far from the truth. it isn’t super intuitive but it is certainly human readable lol, not like it’s command line
GE
06:45
Gatis Eglitis
I mean retail readable
06:47
I rather inseart my assets in command line if i understand a code than form which is created by unknown coder ;)
Z
06:47
Zack
In reply to this message
there is experimental evidence showing that command line interfaces are easier to learn for humans in comparison to point and click interfaces.
Our cultural aversion to the command line is not rooted in reality. it is superstition.
GE
06:48
Gatis Eglitis
Have you thought of plugin in excel?
06:49
Excel can be gap to retail
Z
06:49
Zack
No, I don't think about excel or any microsoft products
GE
06:50
Gatis Eglitis
Goog sheet app?
Z
06:50
Zack
I know what spreadsheets are.
06:50
Not clear at all how this relates to prediction markets.
I also don't understand what you mean by "retail".
GE
06:51
Gatis Eglitis
Retail = non coder user
06:51
In reply to this message
Relates as form
Z
06:52
Zack
I think Mr Flinstone doesn't program, so his experiences with the light node are the retail perspective.
GE
06:52
Gatis Eglitis
More tools to create forms
06:52
Telegram bot for amoveo contract creation?
06:53
As input form
Z
06:53
Zack
you really want to copy paste a contract from telegram into your wallet?
06:53
why not just generate it in the wallet?
GE
06:53
Gatis Eglitis
Wallet - probably best
06:54
But its 3rd party tool
Z
06:55
Zack
the process you need to go through with your wallet to verify that a third party generated the contract correctly, that is as complicated as generating the contract for yourself.

Having a third party generate the contract cannot make the process simpler, it can only make it more complicated.
GE
06:56
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
I am stuck with this form
06:56
Trying to figure out - where to plug in what data
MF
06:56
Mr Flintstone
ok
06:57
you loaded key and synced headers?
GE
06:58
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Is there a baby step manual for this particular form?
MF
06:58
Mr Flintstone
this went live like yesterday
Z
06:58
Zack
we are here to answer your questions. there are buttons like (?) on the page for additional documentation.
MF
06:59
Mr Flintstone
I bet I could walk you through creating a binary bet in less than 5 minutes
GE
07:00
Gatis Eglitis
Would appreciate
MF
07:00
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
did you do this
GE
07:01
Gatis Eglitis
No
07:01
Where do i get key
Z
07:01
Zack
click "sync with the network".
07:01
to get a key click "generate a new account. saves the private key to file"
MF
07:02
Mr Flintstone
to be honest I’m not sure how helpful this is going to be if you don’t have a sense of what private and public keys are
07:02
so I retract my 5 minute comment
GE
07:03
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
This is challenge of going retail
MF
07:03
Mr Flintstone
probably zero cryptocurrency applications abstract away pubkey and private keys
07:03
so far
07:04
if you own veo you have to understand this stuff on some level right
Z
07:04
Zack
The majority of bitcoin users are not programmers, and all of them manage to protect their private keys.
So if "retail" means people who aren't programmers, then needing to protect your private key is not something that prevents "retail"
GE
07:07
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
How you protect your private key on android if u are using amoveo wallet from app store
Z
07:08
Zack
when I use android, I use the amoveo light node that I wrote. It has a button to save your private key onto your phone. http://139.59.144.76:8080/otc_derivatives.html
07:08
I haven't tried the wallet from the app store on android
07:08
but I think it works the same way. just with prettier interfaces.
07:09
it is set up not to display the address until you have saved your private key to file.
That way users wont accidentally send money to an address that they don't have the private key for.
GE
07:20
Gatis Eglitis
1. Synced
07:20
2. Got key from file
07:20
3. Saved private key to a file
07:22
Do i need to input it in the form?
Z
07:28
Zack
Now you need to buy some Veo. You have an address
GE
07:29
Gatis Eglitis
I got veo
Z
07:29
Zack
Then send some Veo to this new address
GE
07:29
Gatis Eglitis
To the generated one?
Z
07:29
Zack
Right
07:30
Do you already have an Oracle that you want to bet on?
07:30
In reply to this message
That is supposed to stay private
07:30
Do not use this account any more
07:30
Since we can all take your money
GE
07:30
Gatis Eglitis
;))))
07:30
Easy ;)
Z
07:31
Zack
You can make a new oracle from the light node if one doesn't already exist to do what you want
GE
07:31
Gatis Eglitis
In reply to this message
Can delete this
Z
07:32
Zack
Do not use that account. It is compromised. Make a new one.
GE
07:34
Gatis Eglitis
So new one created
Z
09:07
Zack
I am now able to connect the p2p derivatives explorer to an amoveo node running in test-mode.
This will make development on the p2p explorer faster in the future.
Z
09:31
Zack
There is one part of sortition chains we haven't planned out yet.
If a sortition chain operator does an invalid state transition, how do we provide evidence of this to the main chain when withdrawing?
Does this mean the main chain is going to need proof that one sortition block is the ancestor of another?
09:40
I guess the sortition chain needs to be a merkelized data structure planned out so that each proof of who is owning which part of the probability space, we want that proof to be as short as possible.
09:45
If we add the rule that no account can own the same part of the probability space more than once, that would make things a lot easier.
If you are owning a part of the probability space, you would just need to keep a copy of the txs where each previous owner had gave up ownership of that part of the probability space.
So if any of them try to claim the jackpot, you could use their signature as evidence to show that it is impossible for that account to win a jackpot for that part of the probability space.
09:48
Interestingly, we don't need to record who they sent the money to, just the fact that it was sent.

we can know it was sent if a preimage was revealed, and the previous owner had signed over the commitment for that pre-image.
Kaan Aslan Yuksek invited Kaan Aslan Yuksek
Z
10:08
Zack
so you never need to prove an invalid state transition on-chain.
If there is an invalid transition in history, then it is not in your interest to buy the coins in the part of the probability space where state had transitioned wrong, because you might not actually own those coins.

And you don't care if there is an invalid state transition after you own your coins, because it can't impact the fact that you own them. your proof is rooted earlier in the blockchain's history, so it takes precedence.
10:20
This is convenient, because it means we can write the sortition block protocol totally independently from Amoveo.
We don't have to worry about teaching Amoveo how to understand or verify these new kinds of blocks and txs.
10:21
Amoveo only needs to know what it looks like to give up ownership of part of the sortition value, and how to process chalang contracts.
Z
13:13
Zack
Some UX improvements to the p2p derivatives tool.
Now it displays oracle text, even for oracles that don't exist on-chain yet.
the tool for opening the bet in the editor works a lot better. it fills out practically everything.
Callum Wright invited Callum Wright
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
18 September 2019
TG
01:06
Toby Ganger
seems as though that little rise up we had in price has been all but nullfiied lately…i thought we might have turned a corner..shrug
Z
02:59
Zack
@denis_voskvitsov gozo is not appearing on coinpaprika. did they drop support for VEO?
DV
03:01
Denis Voskvitsov
I don't think so, why would they? stats endpoint is good too, as far as I can see, and VEO is there.
I'll ask them if they have some issues with coinpaprika.
VE
06:28
VV Enth
@team could you please advise what veo wallet to use
Z
08:08
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo here is the one that I maintain. I can be helpful if you have questions while using this one.
OK
08:51
Oleg Kislitsyn
In reply to this message
Also, you could use https://myveowallet.com. It's a web wallet with a user-friendly interface from Exan.tech team. Plus, you can find iOS/Android/Windows/Mac/Linux versions on a download page https://myveowallet.com/download.

If you have any questions about Exan.tech's wallets – feel free to ask in @amoveo_wallet group
Z
10:38
Zack
if you are making a new sortition contract in a sortition chain, you need to sync some history to verify that the value sent to you is actually yours.
Previously I was imagining they would sync the entire history of that branch of the sortition tree.

But really, they only care about the slice of the sortition tree that controls the part of the probability space that they are buying.
They shouldn't need to sync the entire history for that, right?

All they need are headers and merkel proofs for the state at every block height.
10:41
oh, and any txs where someone else had given up control of part of the contract state.
10:41
they can tell what txs they need and if they have them all just from the merkel proofs.
Z
11:03
Zack
Resource costs of a small wallet
=========
If you want to make a small wallet, you need to verify the history of that part of the probability space.
Assuming:
cps = 10 000 contracts per sortition chain.
bps = 1000 blocks history per sortition chain.
merkel tree node size 256*2 bytes, radix order 2.
#users = 100 trillion users

bps * (512 bytes) * log2(cps) * log(#users)/log(cps) ->
1000 * 512 * 13 * 3.5 bytes ->
~2 329 600 bytes ->
~2.3 mb
11:06
So syncing the sortition chain is typically going to be a lot shorter than syncing the block headers.
11:07
the log(cps) is on the top and bottom! it cancels out.
11:09
I guess it makes sense. Putting merkel trees inside merkel tree is the same as having one giant merkel tree.
TG
11:15
Toby Ganger
where is all this selling from now…it seems like odd timing
Z
11:17
Zack
There is a spread of 30% on qtrade.
You can move the price 30% by trading even 0.01 veo.
11:17
only 5 veo were sold
11:18
there is a channel for this on discord. #price-discussion
11:21
the CMC price is very inaccurate. coinpaprika is much better. https://coinpaprika.com/coin/veo-amoveo/
11:25
please move this to #price-discussion on discord.
11:26
https://qtrade.io/market/VEO_BTC
you can see qtrade markets here
11:28
https://discord.gg/TmYugCs This is Amoveo's discord server
Deleted invited Deleted Account
K
20:01
K
In reply to this message
@veoprice too. :)
VE
20:06
VV Enth
In reply to this message
Thanks!
Andis invited Andis
Z
21:32
Zack
Sy came up with some design changes to make mining pools work better.
Now there are configuration options to run a full node in mining pool mode, so that instead of having to do http requests multiple times per second to see if it is time to start mining on the next block, instead the full node will send a message to your mining pool when it is time to start working on the next block.

This could be useful for @potat_o
21:36
In reply to this message
looks like GOZO is back on coinpaprika
19 September 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
03:15
Zack
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvXuAXSC82w
tragedy of the commons in video game design.
Dave invited Dave
D
07:38
Dave
how do you mine amoveo
07:39
looking at the white paper and not seeing much on the topic
Z
07:39
Zack
there is software for GPU and FPGA
D
07:40
Dave
what algo is the project?
Z
07:40
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo the README has a section of links to mining software
07:40
In reply to this message
we do SHA256, only one round. and our header is very small, so it fits in one internal cycle of the sha256 algorithm instead of 2. so it is like 3x or 4x shorter than bitcoin's.
D
07:40
Dave
gotcha that is a good link thanks!
Michael invited Michael
M
10:07
Michael
Hi，admin ,may i have the contact info of the one who is in charge of listing in your team ? I am Michael from IDAX exchange.
JS
10:18
Jon Snow
No one is in charge of listing and there is no “team” per se, but only a community
S
13:48
Sy
And no one is paying 😝
T
16:01
Topab
Compound looks very centralized according to this analisys (at the end in "What I’m thinking today") https://cryptoam.substack.com/p/cryptoam-bancors-change-synthetic
17:14
Does this sound like something that can use amoveo?
Z
18:28
Zack
Looks like 2 of 3 trusted escrow. Like bit rated
20 September 2019
K
02:09
K
on the dev general channel
Š
02:10
Šea
It's been a while since i was here.. Did you manage to take over some POS chains?
Z
02:10
Zack
I don't have a phone. so I can't join.
02:11
In reply to this message
we now have contracts working for oracles that do not yet exist. So we are making progress towards building this exploit.
Š
02:12
Šea
Nice, looking forward to it
K
02:27
K
You can log into discoed on google chrome right?
Z
02:28
Zack
they can ask questions in Amoveo's discord if they want me to answer
K
02:28
K
Thanks I’ll tell them to join
Ale invited Ale
A
03:22
Ale
Hello good evening
03:26
Zack What about changing one single transaction instead of destroying blockchains. Maybe you can add expertise to improve POS blockchains. POW are nice, but the energy wasted isn't good for the planet from an ecologist point of view. This matter concerns you? Or you just love POW blockchains because they just work very good.
MF
03:30
Mr Flintstone
it isn’t up to him that pos chains will be destroyed by this attack, and it isn’t up to him that the only secure choice is pow
K
04:43
K
Some stratis devs gonna join soon :)
Dan Gershony invited Dan Gershony
DG
04:45
Dan Gershony
Hi I'll read the GitHub links better and then I can comment more
A
06:19
Ale
In reply to this message
Hello Dan 👌
Z
06:19
Zack
In reply to this message
http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/
Looks like pow does the least environmental damage of any way of distributing new tokens.
A
06:20
Ale
In reply to this message
I will read it, ty
T
08:31
Tromp
In reply to this message
Why is the energy “wasted” bad for the planet?
How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur) invited How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur)
Hb
09:30
How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur)
Hi Admin,what are the chances of listing bei on several and larger exchanges Like binance?would this be something that would be done about this?
09:31
I mean The Chances of Listing veo on binance?
Z
13:26
Zack
I reorganized the sortition chains documentation. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/sortition_chains.md
hopefully it is easier to understand, and easier to find what you are looking for.
A
15:06
ALGO
In reply to this message
The listing guidelines for Binance are quite extensive. VEO has a lot of qualities that would make it stand out as a project worthy to be listed, however there is no garuntee that Binance will recognize the project. The best everyone can do as a community is to stay active, contribute to development and provide feedback. A Binance listing should be a means to an end but not an end itself.
s
15:18
sanket
I better wish veo isn't listed.
We haven't reached the stage where we can support mass adoption.
Tools and wallet. Better move slowly and steadily to developbuserbase
Hb
18:39
How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur)
You say,I should stay active and contribute to development.
A
18:40
ALGO
In reply to this message
Any contribution helps :)
Hb
18:46
How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur)
But i am a Trader,and my technical understanding ist almost Zero.Even If I wanted to contribute,I couldn t,because IT s too complicated at The Moment,for example,to place a bet.I read everything,but i didn t understand anything.I think 99% of people would do The Same.You have to create a very simple Interface ob which you can place a Bet with two clicks,so that everyone can use IT.Otherwise there will never be a Mass Adoption in thus Project.That ist my Humble opinion.
18:53
Nobody has time These days to Deal with complicated Things.Time is The Most valuable WE have.
19:04
And The Link for The amoveo3 Wallet from amoveobook.com/help.html doesn t Work.
Z
19:09
Zack
Accepting a bet that someone else has offered is pretty near to 2 clicks
19:09
Copy/ paste and then click "accept"
19:10
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo
Here is the light node wallet that I maintain
Hb
19:12
How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur)
Then simplify The description of The use to The amoveo homepage
Z
19:13
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
This is the amoveo home page that I control.
What do you want me to change about it?
Hb
19:15
How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur)
Write there, The use is very easy.Accepting a Bet that Someone Else hast offered ist pretty near 2 clicks.copy/Paste and Accept.
Z
19:16
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/light_node/p2p_derivatives.md
Here is documentation I made for that tool
Hb
19:18
How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur)
This ist much better than you have to create a Channel,then that,then that.you write too much and to complicated.
19:21
Don t get me wrong,I appreciate you very much,for ne you are a Genius,but please simplify everything as far as you can.Both,The use and The description.
Z
19:36
Zack
In reply to this message
Sounds like a plan
Hb
19:40
How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur)
I have 2 More questions/why are there only 44ooo veo coins total supply and Not More?does IT have a reason? Sexond question, ist this correct that The DEFX Index ist listed in Nasdaq and that this Index consists of following:Rep,veo,gno,NMR,mkr and zrx?
19:42
And yes,i have invested in The veo coin for The Long term.i Hope that was a good decision.time will Tell.
19:47
Zack,you need to give More weighting for The Word "simplification"
A
19:49
Ale
Where can i buy one amoveo?
Hb
19:50
How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur)
Qtrade.io
Z
19:51
Zack
In reply to this message
I think the market cap is like 68000 Veo right not. A lot more than 44k
We have futarchy governance to set the block reward.
Hb
19:51
How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur)
And hitbtc.com
Z
19:52
Zack
In reply to this message
Exan.tech set up an index where Veo is 20%.
Hopefully they will offer a fund so we can trade on this index someday.
19:52
In reply to this message
Don't use hitbtc. They don't allow withdraw.
Hb
19:53
How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur)
Right.
19:53
Use qtrade.io
A
19:54
Ale
Oh thanks
19:54
I will buy one there
19:55
I think this guy has an amazing brain
Hb
19:56
How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur)
So The Message with the Defx Index in Nasdaq ist incorrect?
Z
19:58
Zack
I think anyone can set up a Nasdaq index if they set up a correctly formatted API, and pay Nasdaq a fee.
Hb
20:10
How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur)
The Defx Index ist supposedly running through Exante.You can also find this in Nasdaq listed Index in Tradingview.com. In The Chart.Defix ist the First altcoin Index to reflect The "Most promising Blockchain Projects"
20:13
Zack,think of The links which do Not work
Z
20:14
Zack
if you find dead links in the documentation, tell me and I will fix them.
Hb
20:14
How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur)
There are 2
20:16
The Link for The amoveo3wallet
Z
20:16
Zack
What page is the dead link on?
Hb
20:18
How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur)
Amoveo com/Help.html
Z
20:19
Zack
I don't control that website. maybe @ALGO94 can help
Hb
20:20
How to...Millionaire in 3 steps !? by (Laur)
And The Exchange Site Made by you
20:21
But IT s The homepage.
20:22
Amoveo.io
Z
20:22
Zack
there is a dead link on this page? http://139.59.144.76:8090/main.html
A
20:27
ALGO
@gramsboom If you have suggestions for the amoveo.io website please send them my way, redrafting the website is part of our list of tasks
Z9
20:30
Zackatron 9000
Zack have you looked at band protocol? Looks like another good pos candidate for review considering all the recent hype
Z
20:32
Zack
ill check it out
Z9
20:32
Zackatron 9000
They have some weird unnecessarily complex stake split which is not like the other ones uve reviewed
20:33
And ty looking forward to it :)
Z
20:33
Zack
this looks more like an oracle project than a PoS project
Z9
20:36
Zackatron 9000
Yeah its something in between not sure what to make of it exactly tbh
Z
20:36
Zack
I guess they are doing both
Z9
20:37
Zackatron 9000
They use dpos for curating data sources
20:38
Theres also some attack vector analysis in the wp so might be easy to find some answers quick there
Z9
22:55
Zackatron 9000
@briangor11 just tried shill me some scam in dm
22:55
Remove please
Z
23:43
Zack
I can't protect you from the spammers. Just block them.
21 September 2019
Z
09:02
Zack
I am having trouble with banks.
They can't understand where I am earning money from.
They can't figure out how to make me compliant with anti-money-laundering regulations.

It seems like the only accounts they want to give me are ones with a very low spending limit per month.

Does anyone have any advice on how to deal with this?

Should I put some money into some fund that pays me monthly, and I can use those monthly payments to show I have income?
Should I start a company and give myself employment?
Should I pay someone to give me a fake job on paper?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
14:42
Deleted Account
Hi, any admins have time for me?
A
16:17
Ale
In reply to this message
The best imho, is to have a job and a salary. Thats the most clear thing this ignorants understand.
Z
17:49
Zack
It seems like "proof of employment" is just a letter from your boss with some employment info and a way to contact him.
18:01
In reply to this message
Great, thanks for the link
18:05
A lawyer in my local jurisdiction, not in Seychelles, right?
18:06
Great, thanks for the info Alfred
22 September 2019
Z
01:23
Zack
I learned some stuff about video game tutorials, and it gave me this idea on how to make the light node better.

Lets add a user-controlled difficulty system to the light node.
So you can start in "novice" mode, or "difficulty 0" or something. and it only provides you with the very basic spend and receive features, and there is tons of text explaining everything in detail.

Then if you upgrade to "level 1", the explanation text all disappears. The tools you already learned are still available, and it gives you access to some new tools.
Like at level 1 maybe it becomes possible to do cold storage and send encrypted messages.
The new tools will have big walls of text explaining how they work.

and it can continue like this up to the highest level, maybe level 5, which will be equivalent to the existing wallet.
01:25
Some video games have very complicated controls, and the players actually enjoy mastering them.

I think that we shouldn't avoid complexity. We want to give our users the most powerful tools that we can make.

But we don't want to overload people all at once.
We want our users to have repeated positive experiences that bring them back to learn more techniques.
MF
03:34
Mr Flintstone
if anyone is worried about veo dropping a lot in usd, this bet will pay you 3:1 if veo drops more than 20% in usd from the current highest bid on qtrade over the next week. you risk 3 veo but can make 9 veo plus the original 3 back.

trade: https://paste.ee/p/qC6K4
oracle: https://paste.ee/p/HXHSH

this expires in around 10 hours
MF
05:27
Mr Flintstone
ok how about the same thing but for btc. this one pays 12:1.

trade: https://paste.ee/p/ODoNT
oracle: https://paste.ee/p/iR2SP
05:28
risk 0.83 make 10
KaFai C invited KaFai C
Deleted invited Deleted Account
23 September 2019
Z
02:21
Zack
In reply to this message
We can have a narrative to help drive the user to want to learn more tools, so they can upgrade to a higher level in the tutorial, and find out what happens next in the narrative.
s
02:41
sanket
In reply to this message
Wow
MF
03:36
Mr Flintstone
that trade expired but if you’re interested I’ll send over another
MF
06:32
Mr Flintstone
oh nevermind, somebody did take the trade
06:32
cool
MF
06:53
Mr Flintstone
also I don’t think veoscan and veopool explorer are correctly displaying the balances for people who are proposing trades
mx
08:53
mr x
not having to create oracle first is kinda big for usability
Z
09:09
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes
09:14
The key to look up who owns part of the probability space of a sortition chain.
That key is one example of a blockchain state that would result in you winning.
So the key can include some oracle results, and it can include entropy that will get produced from the random number generator, and whether certain secrets were revealed in time or not.

And what it returns is the pubkey of who would win, and the limits of the entire probability space that they control.
09:15
This way the server is free to rebalanced the Merkel tree.
09:18
It is a sparse Merkel tree, and the order of conditions doesn't matter.
Because of what it means to be mutually exclusive in terms of probability.
Z
09:59
Zack
In reply to this message
Instead of referencing oracles and secrets directly, it should reference a list of hashes of chalang contracts. And for each contract hash, whether that contract returns true or false.
A
20:26
ALGO
The DEFX index has been doing well in this past week. Some people have done 'technical analysis' on it even though its just been out for a couple of weeks. It's good to see Amoveo mentioned in the comments there:

https://www.tradingview.com/symbols/NASDAQ-DEFX/
s
21:40
sanket
In reply to this message
Thankd
MF
22:34
Mr Flintstone
Bold move selling btc vol into the bakkt launch lol
Z
23:16
Zack
with sortition chains if you buy a contract, say a BTC stablecoin contract for example, that contract is now the root of a new sortition chain.
And in your new sortition chain, everything has a value that follows BTC.
24 September 2019
Z
00:38
Zack
I got a response from HitBTC:

As before, our node doesn't sync more blocks after initial sync. We used the latest commit from master

(783a8ee) to build it and this document to launch: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/getting-started/turn_it_on.md
The node syncs up to the latest block on startup, then gets stuck and doesn't sync. The result of block:height(). and api:height(). heights are the same, but they doesn't grow. The result of peers:all(). is the list of 17 peers.
00:40
its probably a firewall issue, right?
I am going to do more testing to see how well the ip is being shared on startup.
S
01:25
Sy
They probably didn't add themself to peers so nothing is pushed
01:26
Another sync start would catch up again
Z
12:29
Zack
I am sending this response:

Hello HitBTC,

I rented a new server and attempted syncing right now with these instructions https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/getting-started/turn_it_on.md

and it worked. it is fully synced, and it is staying in sync.

There are 2 possible ways your node could be failing to stay in sync.

1) maybe you forgot to do sync_mode:normal(). and keys:unlock(""). after it had finished downloading all the blocks, as is explained in this page of the install instructions: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/getting-started/sync.md

2) maybe there is a firewall issue. The full node will only attempt to download blocks if it already has headers for that block. It can only find out about headers if someone else tells you that a new header exists. Headers are shared by pushing, not pulling.
If you share with me the IP address of the server where you are running the full node software, then I can confirm whether it is a firewall issue by visiting this page served by your server for example http://139.59.144.76:8080/txs.html
AK
15:04
A K
Might help to advise them which ports must be open to accept incoming connections?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
15:30
Deleted Account
Hey guys, looks like a small community of people mining this coin. Is the only pool veopool.pw because the other pool I tried didn’t even work
15:34
And how come on veopool.pw there’s only two ports but this third port 8881 works?
A
15:36
ALGO
In reply to this message
@Simon3456 Would probably be the best one to reach out to in regards to mining technicalities
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
20:33
Zack
Ive been thinking about sortition chain smart contracts.

for sortition chains we need to run smart contracts in 2 different kinds of security assumptions.
1) We need a way to divide up the probability space. The outcomes of these contracts needs to be computable to everyone, so they can't depend on off-chain data.
2) We need a way to have smart contracts who's outcome might depend on data only known to the participants of that contract. So the outcome is only computable by the participants, up until the point where they post the evidence on-chain to enforce the correct outcome. For example, this is needed for single-price-batches.
Z
22:26
Zack
https://discord.gg/6JtPD2Z I am doing the cryptoJungle interview here now
25 September 2019
MF
02:59
Mr Flintstone
loling at my timing on selling btc -20% insurance
02:59
literally perfect
AK
04:01
A K
MANIPULATION
Z
05:15
Zack
In reply to this message
Amazing timing
Z
06:31
Zack
In reply to this message
this says >50% right?
JS
07:27
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
You are helping the humanity
Z
08:20
Zack
Oh, they found out that trump might have abused the power of his office to influence elections to maintain power.
Which I guess is an impeachable offence.

The prediction market sure makes it easier to understand the news.
08:21
In reply to this message
It's only 50% for the first step.
Actually impeaching him is only like 11%
J
08:25
Jed
its never going to happen lol
Z
08:25
Zack
If that's what you believe, then you can make a profit by betting in this market
MF
11:12
Mr Flintstone
oracle: https://paste.ee/p/h0DUW
trade: https://paste.ee/p/0rjTB
A
11:26
Aries
In reply to this message
will keep eye on those markets just something I wanted to bring to your attention
A
12:28
Aries
Zack let me post one of the bitcoin
12:29
Prediction markets
14:32
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
So is POS Superior or POW Superior or is there another system like hedera to remain superior
S
17:47
Sy
In reply to this message
what do you mean? better ask in discord #mining tho, telegram is kinda fast for questions
MF
21:54
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
nobody wants this? a 10:1 payment if bitcoin drops 20% in a week. risk 0.3 make 3
A
23:03
Aries
we should study all the marketing techniques that https://www.predictit.org/ is using
23:04
🤔
Z
23:49
Zack
https://coinpaprika.com/tag/proof-of-work?all=true&tokens=false

If you list blockchains that have pow mining, Amoveo is number 52.
Z
23:54
Zack
In reply to this message
this is spam, right?
I
23:56
Instinct
In reply to this message
“Some teams that we have been fortunate to be made aware of are VEO, SNOW or MCM ( You should look them up). They may not bring in the huge volumes, but they will be projects that the DX community will want to support.”
Z
23:56
Zack
This says nothing about amoveo. it is just the letters "VEO".
23:57
They aren't teaching anyone about Amoveo, this is just a trick to convince us to read his blog.
I
23:57
Instinct
In reply to this message
Looks like they might list it on their exchange
Z
23:57
Zack
In reply to this message
oh, I missed that part
I
23:57
Instinct
I don’t know anything about it though
Z
23:58
Zack
if he actually starts listing us instead of just talking about it, then we should care
26 September 2019
I
00:25
Instinct
In reply to this message
👍
Z
00:28
Zack
https://coinmarketcap.com/coins/views/filter-non-mineable/ we are number 62 of mineable coins.

I wonder what the difference is between "mineable" and "PoW" ?
I guess subcurrencies on ethereum are "non-mineable".
AK
00:36
A K
it liststs ADA and TRON
00:36
are they pow??
Z
00:36
Zack
yeah, what do they mean by mineable?
Maybe staking is a kind of "mining" for them
AK
00:36
A K
aha
00:37
mineable is probably "inflation exists"
Z
00:37
Zack
oh right, that makes sense
Z
01:22
Zack
Thinking more about the 2 kinds of smart contracts involved in sortition chains.
The contracts that divide up probability space, if we want to modify any of these contracts, we will need to wait for on-chain confirmations.

But the contract that is between the operator and the customer, this contract can be updated instantly.
Z
02:31
Zack
I think it is time to make a push and get soritition chains written.
I think we have it planned out well enough now, and look at all the sharding nonsense going on with ethereum proof of stake research.
All those ethereum researchers, who have been working for years can't get sharding operational.
And they are only doing 256 shards.

I think we can get the on-chain parts of the code written, ready to merge as a hard update, with passing tests, within 2 months. And ours will allow for shards to be divided into more shards, without writing anything on-chain.
So we could support billions of shards, with no extra on-chain fees in comparison to having only 1 shard.
02:33
getting sortition chains written is a prerequisite to some nice UX upgrades too.
Z
03:01
Zack
I think now that we have these 2 kinds of smart contracts, you will be able to do all the state channel stuff from inside the sortition chain.
So we will be able to get rid of state channels, and use sortition chains for everything.
Z
03:51
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/sortition/docs/todo.md
I am starting to plan out the steps of implementation
03:53
looks like all the proof of existence stuff was never erased. we just turned it off.
So we can just turn it on again. no need to write anything.
Z
04:26
Zack
It would be really nice if we could find a way to make the merkel tree of baby sortition chains inside of a sortitoin chain, if that merkel tree could reuse our existing merkel tree software instead of needing new software.
04:27
but I think there is just no way.
04:28
and I am pretty sure it going to need to be a binary merkel tree this time
04:36
I think since this tree is off-chain, we can start with an inefficient implementation and make fixes later fairly easily.
We can even re-balance the tree whenever we want, since there is only one copy. We don't have to maintain consensus of it with anyone else.
ŽM
05:28
Živojin Mirić
This is great
MF
09:21
Mr Flintstone
here you get paid 20:1 if bitcoin drops -10% in 24 hours starting at 4 am utc + 0 (3 hours from now). risk 0.25 make 5
oracle: https://paste.ee/p/qVMWJ
trade: https://paste.ee/p/HS1bR
Z
10:08
Zack
Amoveo sortition chains will be ideal for lotteries.
You can sell big chunks of the probability space, and the people you sell to can chop the space up and sell it in smaller chunks to more distributors.
10:08
We need a plan for the random number generator to select the lottery winner.
10:10
I am thinking we should take the least significant bit of every block hash, and use that as the entropy for contracts.

And we have to select the entropy as it existed on the block height where the sortition contract expires, so we need a new merkel tree to store the historical entropy.
10:14
How often should we store more entropy in the tree? every 100th block?

The amount of time between when we store more entropy, that is the minimum amount of time a sortition chain can exist for.

Maybe we should connect it to the "minimum_oracle_time" governance variable, since that is measuring something similar?
10:18
Maybe we can prune old entropy from the tree, since it only can get used for a short period of time.
It could be a very small merkel tree, if we are only ever storing like 50 elements at a time.
Z
10:36
Zack
Or maybe we can grab the entropy from headers for now, and add optimizations for speed later.

No reason to add a new tree if the headers already can give cryptoeconomic guarantees about this data.
AK
16:00
A K
What's the bus factor for Amoveo? 1?
A
16:03
Asindu
Everything concerning Amoveo is opensource so anyone who can read the code can easily take over the project
AK
16:03
A K
_easily_
16:03
huge lol here )
A
16:04
Asindu
In reply to this message
😂😂
16:04
doesn't Amoveo have a formal spec or yellow paper?
Z
17:01
Zack
Amoveo is the shortest blockchain project I know about. There number of lines of code is small.

There is lots of documentation, but we don't have a formal spec in the sense of being able to re-implement amoveo without the source code.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
17:05
Zack
A quick Google search says that ethereum is about 1.3 millions of lines of code that took 383 man-years to write.

Amoveo is probably less than 10k lines of code.
And if I had to start from scratch, I could probably rewrite it all in like 3 or 4 months.
17:10
Bitcoin has around 380k lines of code according to a Google search
17:12
The exantech team has built a nice tool using my javascript code in the light node.
This shows that my code can be understood and built on top of, even by people who didn't learn english as a first language.
G
17:13
Gregory
Last sentence is very funny)))
Z
17:14
Zack
Around 10% of amoveo is the chalang virtual machine, which has already been rewritten for javascript.
It took me like 2 days to rewrite it into javascript.
17:17
If I die, just keep using futarchy to make any tough decisions, and things will go fine.
G
17:20
Gregory
No please dont die
AK
17:21
A K
🙏🏻
G
17:27
Gregory
Ae 44mm already
АК
17:49
Алексей Колосов
In reply to this message
Ахахаха
MF
22:18
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
No takers on this one, kind of surprised. maybe I need to offer 30:1 :)
DV
22:25
Denis Voskvitsov
maybe you need to propose it outside this small community :)
22:25
open a thread on r/cryptocurrency for instance
22:26
I bet there'll be many people wanting to hedge even with current UI
MF
22:40
Mr Flintstone
good points
Z
23:27
Zack
I think I found a flaw in sortition chains.

Lets say there is a sortition chain A built on the main chain, and a sortition chain B inside of it.
at height N, sortition chain operator A publishes the root of their sorition chain state, and the root of all their child chains who wanted to be updated as well.

Now a user wants to buy a contract inside of sortition chain B.
So they request merkel proofs of every state update in sortition chain B to verify that the part of the sortition chain that they want to own, that it is not already owned.

The user thinks that at height N, sortition chain B may have published a state update, so they request a merkel proof for this height.

This means that sortition chain operator B needs to be able to generate a merkel proof to show that block height N did not modify the state of sortition chain B.

But sortition chain operator A was the one who generated that merkel tree. They could choose to not share any merkel proofs from it with sortition chain operator B.


Basically, this seems like a bug that allows the operator of your parent sortition chain to halt progress in your sortition chain.
23:35
Another problem is related to how we need the two kinds of smart contracts.
If you use a state-channel type smart contract with private information to determine if you wont the sortition chain, the you can't sell any contracts inside your sortition chain, because the value of those contracts is determined by private information that can't be proven.

Maybe a sortition chain should store 2 kinds of elements. state channels, and child sortition chains.
23:37
we need the state channel features to import money into the sortition chain, and to have single-price batching in markets, but then you can upgrade from a state channel to a sortition chain if you want to sell stake in your contract.
23:39
In reply to this message
If a sortition chain operator was malicious, they could only freeze progress, they can't invalidate any smart contract.
And this would destroy their reputation. No one would want to own contracts in any of their sortition chains in the future.
It is cheap and easy to verify that a sortition chain operator is hiding data.
23:44
What is unfortunate is that this creates a trade-off.
If there are more servers available where you can record the current state of your sortition chain, this means you can continue operations even if some of those nodes go off-line.
But it also increases the number of servers who have the ability to freeze progress on your sortition chain.
23:47
and it increases the number of merkel proofs that you need to record.
(number of elements in your sortition chain) * (number of blocks that the sortition chain exists for) * (number of ancestors between you and the main chain) * (size of a merkel proof in bytes)

10k * 2k * 6 * (32 bytes * log2(10000))
is like 8.5 gigabytes of data.
23:55
Having multiple people with the ability to freeze progress if things are going wrong, maybe that can have benefits too.
27 September 2019
Z
00:00
Zack
if we limit ourselves to 1000 accounts per sortition chain, then it is only 600 megabytes.
and that still enables 1 trillion accounts, in just 4 layers of sortition chains of depth.
JS
00:07
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Indeed lol
Z
00:07
Zack
In reply to this message
From a game theory standpoint, this sort of reputation system is no good.
If the fees for operating a sortition chain are low, then it wont be expensive to bribe the operator to freeze everyone's progress.
If we assume that 100% of the users are only interested in maximizing their personal profit, then sortition chains does not work.

When we model our users, typically something like this is used:
89% selfish
10% willing to take a loss to harm amoveo.
1% willing to take a loss to help amoveo. altruists

If we keep track of who does a good job of running sortition chains, eventually we should be able to identify some pubkeys that are owned by the 1% of users who are altruists.
Even if only a tiny fraction of Veo are owned by altruists, this may still be sufficient to have working sortition chains.
00:10
Because an altruist can make a sortition chain, then sell all the stake in it, which means they now have enough veo to afford to make another sortition chain. this is that leverage trick we already documented.
Z
09:15
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/sortition/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/consensus_rng.erl
I got the random number generator operational, and hooked up to chalang.
09:17
I implemented the data structures for one of the two on-chain merkel trees we will need. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/sortition/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/trees/sortition_chains.erl
09:18
I refined our plan of what else needs to get done for this hard update for sortition chains. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/sortition/docs/todo.md
mx
17:36
mr x
Why not put oracle text as part of contract offerings in the ui? No manual checking that the id matches would be better?
Z
18:10
Zack
In reply to this message
Can you be more specific? It sounds like you have an idea on how to improve the ui.
What page exactly do you want changed?
mx
18:13
mr x
when you paste offer to otc_listener.html it only shows the oracle id
18:13
why not just bring the oracle text also along
18:13
and verify it matches
Z
18:20
Zack
Yes, that makes sense.
The channel offer could include the Oracle question text inside of it
mx
18:20
mr x
yea
18:23
btw too lazy to try but does offer allow multiple accepts?
Z
18:24
Zack
No. But You could make multiple offers.
18:25
Each offer has a channel ID written on it.
Once that channel exists, you can't create another with the same ID .
mx
18:25
mr x
ok
A
19:38
ALGO
Z
Zack 24.09.2019 22:26:05
https://discord.gg/6JtPD2Z I am doing the cryptoJungle interview here now
A
19:42
ALGO
Zack did a great job in this interview answering some thoughtful and highly relevant questions for the Amoveo ecosystem. CryptoJungle will be featuring Amoveo in their Understory series within the coming weeks. I would highly recommend following the cryptojungle community. From the short time I've spent in their Discord they have acted as respectable, educated members of the cryptocurrency community interested in the progression of the space as a whole.
23:33
The next tx type will be the one where we are running chalang contracts. this is where it gets interesting.
PG
23:33
Pedro Gracia
hohoho
23:33
great!
23:33
this is crazy!
28 September 2019
ŽM
02:42
Živojin Mirić
Woooo woo woooov
02:42
Wat is
02:42
I am exemplary delight ok
Nick- invited Nick-
N
04:54
Nick-
In reply to this message
Hi👋
Can we talk in DM?
Z
06:39
Zack
Previously we were thinking that a sortition chain when resolved, would produce another sortition chain. That way we could do the smart contracts for each layer of the sortition tree it their own on-chain txs.

But that strategy does not work.
Lets say there is sortiiton chain A, and I own sortition chain B inside of it.
I sell parts of sortition chain B to other people.
Then I sign a contract giving up any ownership I used to have over sortition chain B, selling it all back to sortition chain operator A.

The problem with having sortition chains resolve in time iterated steps, is that we need to know what happened in the leaves of the tree to correctly handle the trunk of the tree.
We need to see it all at once to make the right choice.

So we need to find a way to deal with a list of channel_contracts, each necessary to prove the validity of the next.
We need to figure out how to encode the priority of one outcome vs another.
06:45
sortition chains technically do work without pruning.
It is kind of weird though, because when you publish the contract on-chain, you would be giving a record of that part of the probability space's ownership all the way back to the sortition chain's origin.

That means coins lose a little value every time they get spent, and there is a finite number of times that a satoshi inside the sortition chain can get spent.

How many times could a satoshi change hands in 2 months?
06:50
it is still exponential scaling solution, but it is a lot worse than what we were hoping for.
This means there would have to be some non-zero cost of txs, and it is proportional to the portion of the value in the sortition chain being transferred.
So, it would be a fraction of how much value is being spent, like 0.01%.
and this fee would be smaller in bigger sortition chains.
07:02
ok, I think we can do pruning, but we need to keep a record of the heights at which ownership of parts of the tree were given up.
Z
07:19
Zack
Because every layer of the sortition chain, we need to show that the fraction of the probability value that won, is the fraction that we own part of.

We can only own part of it, if we made a contract with someone.
That contract is only valid if they had owned it at this height to be able to sell it to us.

So if anyone can show that the person we bought our contract from had given up ownership at an earlier height, that is a way to show that our claim is invalid.
Z
08:59
Zack
im thinking we should generate a little merkel tree of these pubkeys on-chain as a part of the tx processing, and store the root along with the sortition chain data.
So now if someone wants to prove that one of those pubkeys did not own that value at that point in time, they can make a merkel proof based on the data that was available to everyone on-chain during smart contract processing.
Z
09:38
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/sortition/docs/todo.md
Here is the list of tasks to complete until sortition chains is working
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
19:11
Zack
At some point, we got rid of the sortition-blocks concept from the sortition chain.
So it really doesn't make sense to call it a "chain".

The merkel tree of probabilistic smart contracts data structure is at its heart, maybe "sortition tree"?

or maybe "channel factories"?
Z
19:50
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/commit/5ce8adecb5aaa8cf9a764fd9f368b4fd5d0bdab5 I started implementing the sortition contract tx.
19:51
"sortition shards"?
19:52
"probabilistic state channels" might be best.

maybe with ps-channels for an abbreviation.
Z
21:52
Zack
In reply to this message
No one implemented channel factories yet. It is just an idea.

Sortition chains will be the first implementation of something like that.
22:07
Amoveo ps-channels are similar.
In this paper the channel factories can only create channels.
In the plan for Amoveo the channel factories are able to create more channel factories, which is what gives us exponential scalability.

Another difference is that Amoveo depends on probabilistic value smart contracts, so you can ignore all parts of the probability space except for the part that you own, so you aren't trusting anyone.

In this paper it looks like they are using N of M multisig security instead, which is a kind of voting protocol, and does not work. You are trusting the commity that runs the factory.

Maybe we should call amoveo sharding channel-factory-factories.
Z
22:53
Zack
Right. We are reusing that same trick from probabilistic payments.
With sortition chains, there are many mutually exclusive probabilistic outcomes. So only one of the many outcomes will get recorded on-chain.
Z
23:11
Zack
sortition chains has everything that state channels offers, and more.
So the UX experience will be strictly better than a pure state-channel experience.
23:15
We don't have much freedom here.
There is only one known way to achieve exponential scaling, and exponential scaling is necessary if we want to succeed globally.

Building this sharding system is less like engineering a solution, and more like deriving the solution.
23:25
is Amoveo an indie blockchain?
29 September 2019
Z
00:02
Zack
Well, my running costs since the Genesis block have probably averaged around $15 per month.
To run the servers for full nodes
00:08
A typical blockchain project has 50 employees with an average cost per employee around $10k per month.
So $1/2 million per month burn rate.
Z
00:40
Zack
they can add a link to the amoveo github if they want. I don't control that repository.
Amierul invited Amierul
Z
08:32
Zack
Mr Flintstone helped find a bunch of ways to make the channel close offer mechanism better.
Now a close offer has a time limit, to solve the free option problem.
Now close offers don't look at your nonce. so you can have multiple close offers sent to different people at the same time, and they wont interfere with each other.
Now we can combine a close offer with a payment.

Slowly but surely, the derivatives UX is getting better.
MF
08:35
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
8,245.92/10,019.72 - 1 = -17.7%
08:38
even though whoever accepted my trade would lose all of the money, i am willing to pay them 0.05 veo to settle now instead of with the oracle in a week and a half. offer:
https://paste.ee/p/L8qlg
JS
09:07
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
A quite curve ball you threw there
09:07
So close to the strike price -20%
Z
18:16
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/use-cases-and-ideas/climate_maintenance.md

A lot of people are concerned about climate change recently. Futarchy is the only solution to climate change that is secure against being captured by rich companies who want to manipulate the environmentalism movement.
Z
21:57
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/sortition/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/txs/test_txs.erl#L1034
I made a test to show how to access the consensus entropy in smart contracts.
This is the basis for how we will have probabilistic smart contracts to enable sortition chains.
30 September 2019
McFly49 invited McFly49
M
05:08
McFly49
Hi all
05:08
Learning about the project
MF
07:34
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
ok you can either take this offer and receive 0.05 veo or i can enforce the payout with the below oracle and you receive 0.00 veo

https://myveowallet.com/oracles/GK8%2BnlXOcI9xlcxYkyFUMTI5YQJ62xqahJOshpTGSo4%3D
07:38
actually nvm, they didnt take the offer and it expired after 100 blocks. ill just use the oracle instead.
07:40
for anyone who thinks it might make sense for them to bet on this oracle as true, i would say please go ahead and do that
JS
08:28
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
What’s the fair price you think?
TG
08:55
Toby Ganger
In reply to this message
is market cap based solely on current utility? or is a large portion of it speculative based on all sorts of reasons including quality of tech, innovation involved, and overall market sentiment?
Z
09:01
Zack
there is a price discussion channel on discord
52kph (Ian) invited 52kph (Ian)
5
12:02
52kph (Ian)
In reply to this message
It's too easily manipulatable right now. 24h volume is $19
12:03
SO most likely price is being held at that level
Z
13:34
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/commit/beef456285f29727f98f100b2cba0d82f3898e67
I got a passing test for the new_sortition_chain_tx.
Mr. Coin invited Mr. Coin
5
15:57
52kph (Ian)
In reply to this message
👍
I
16:13
Instinct
In reply to this message
Check coinpaprika instead of cmc. Around $3k volume today, still not much but there’s been around $10-30k daily volume on average for last couple weeks
5
16:18
52kph (Ian)
In reply to this message
Coin paprika, never heard of it. Isn't coingecko any good?
16:20
How did the tokens come into existence?
AK
16:21
A K
PoW
I
16:21
Instinct
In reply to this message
yeah coingecko is good too, they don’t track Gozo.pro which sometimes has a lot of volume for veo
5
16:21
52kph (Ian)
In reply to this message
So mined
16:22
Just under 2000 left to be mined right?
I
16:23
Instinct
In reply to this message
No, that was early mined coins sent to a burn address afaik. There’s no hard cap set rn but it can be introduced using futarchy
5
16:23
52kph (Ian)
What happens when all mined?
16:24
In reply to this message
No hard cap, so can be mined into infinity? Where's the value of holding?
I
16:30
Instinct
In reply to this message
The block reward has been reduced multiple time’s 85% so far in total from 1 Veo to 0.15. If the community agrees to a hard cap at some point through futarchy then it will be implemented.
MC
16:42
Mr. Coin
In reply to this message
....demand.
16:43
Market dynamics..
16:45
Do people hold USD?
5
16:48
52kph (Ian)
In reply to this message
I wouldn't demand something with no fixed cap.
16:48
In reply to this message
What does that mean?
MC
16:48
Mr. Coin
How do you currently pay your bills?
5
16:49
52kph (Ian)
In reply to this message
For daily use. Shouldn't be HODLed unless yr interest rates can beat inflation.
16:49
In reply to this message
Cash
MC
17:11
Mr. Coin
In reply to this message
So would you say current US interest rates negate the rate at which we’re “printing” money?
17:13
In reply to this message
I think there’s an argument to be made that this certainly does not have a finite cap
A
18:04
ALGO
In reply to this message
The community can decide on a hardcap through governance using Futrachy. The point of a hardcap is to establish scarcity and fight inflation that might lead to price depreciation as a result of a greater supply. I believe Zack also works under the impression that the community as a entity is the main driver behind development decisions and Amoveo isn't necessarily constrained by its conceptual origin like Bitcoin.
5
18:27
52kph (Ian)
In reply to this message
I don't know about the US. Do you? The Euro is 0. Pound 0.75. Sweden and Switzerland negative.
18:28
In reply to this message
I would hope not
AK
18:46
A K
Euro is -0.5
5
18:54
52kph (Ian)
In reply to this message
Wow. When did that change?
P
19:16
P
In reply to this message
does this affect payment accounts or only savings?
AK
19:19
A K
all accounts
19:19
usually above some threshold, practically
P
19:19
P
fuck. bank run here i come kek
5
19:19
52kph (Ian)
i'm sure the pound will follow
AK
19:19
A K
it's been -0.4 for years, no runs for now )
5
19:20
52kph (Ian)
In reply to this message
what has?
AK
19:20
A K
usually smaller balances are exempt and it's banks margin that is under attack
19:20
In reply to this message
ECB EUR rate
P
19:20
P
In reply to this message
is htere a place where i can see what's the threshold?
AK
19:20
A K
every bank decides for itself
19:20
commercial decision
5
19:21
52kph (Ian)
In reply to this message
doesn't it say 0? or am i reading the wrong part?
AK
19:21
A K
can be up to 100K EUR with 0 rates, and negative for balancs above 100K
P
19:21
P
i see. considering it's only my salary that's in the account i should be fine but ill take a closer look ty
AK
19:22
A K
In reply to this message
-0.5 is what matters, banks are charged for keeping money with the ECB / local CBs
5
19:22
52kph (Ian)
ok thanks.
MF
19:30
Mr Flintstone
I don’t think many banks have passed on the negative rate to smaller depositors yet
19:30
but for wealthy people / larger business accounts they are starting to get charged this
P
19:31
P
yeah just checked im safe
19:31
>marked safe from ECB lunacy
5
19:32
52kph (Ian)
🙌🙌🙌
5
19:51
52kph (Ian)
like dominoes
S
22:46
SSDD
👀
S
22:46
SSDD
A
Amoveo News 30.09.2019 22:32:37
This week's newsletter covers the new interview of Zack for iHodl and Cryptojungle, new scalar oracle functionalities in the MyVEOWallet and much more.

Read more about it here: https://amoveo.substack.com/p/28-zacks-interview-for-ihodl-and?r=13ymm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&utm_source=copy
I
22:58
Instinct
In reply to this message
👍
1 October 2019
MF
01:53
Mr Flintstone
looks like someone is playing around with the oracle tools
DV
01:54
Denis Voskvitsov
😎
01:55
going to release an update with scalar oracles on MVW. final tests.
MF
01:55
Mr Flintstone
oh right you guys are supposed to release by the end of september?
DV
01:55
Denis Voskvitsov
yep. should be finally delivered in a few hours.
MF
01:56
Mr Flintstone
I would hope so given the dac conditions :)
DV
05:49
Denis Voskvitsov
DV
Denis Voskvitsov 01.10.2019 05:49:03
I'd like to announce an update of myveowallet.com with scalar oracles support.

Now you can see scalar oracle in the list as a single entity, create new ones and bet using just final oracle value as in question: https://myveowallet.com/oracles/inD82CmYIn6zva7Ufxjr67X25zQYxt%2Bbk6V3YRoIMeQ%3D or https://myveowallet.com/oracles/%2FYiSrUC9yrVE3v3W6p55AK5Xb%2BDtkrEC1h%2FCuBnmge4%3D

What will we do next to improve Amoveo oracles UX and what was left outside the DAC scope:
— Rework oracle creation form to allow using common wordings according to Zack's using_oracles guide
— Add an option to skip actual oracle creation just like in recent light node UI
— Fold scalar oracles transactions in dashboard to make it less cluttered
— Make place bet form more user-friendly showing tips on bet amount / state / etc. (using pending tx's also)
— Make oracles list updated in realtime

Anyway, with that update we've finished working on Scalar oracles DAC so you can review this feature and share your feedback here in @amoveo_wallet or directly to me.
MF
06:33
Mr Flintstone
awesome
06:34
is the next dac to add some functions to bet in channels?
DV
06:40
Denis Voskvitsov
absolutely

it will be not only channels support but contracts marketplace
Z
07:43
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/commit/e2f095e8d769d7b8568cde5e7d47403f0a3a321b
I implemented another sortition chain tx type.
MF
21:08
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
we settled the trade without needing to wait for the oracle
21:08
using the channel close transaction
Z
21:33
Zack
In reply to this message
Awesome!
2 October 2019
MF
07:13
Mr Flintstone
http://139.59.144.76:8090/main.html
07:13
there is a trade on this website paying 25:1 if bitcoin goes up 10% in the next 24 hours or so
07:14
risk 0.2 make 5
07:14
it expires in 15 amoveo blocks though
EA
09:09
Eric Arsenault
Love it @Jbreezy0
A
22:02
Aries
just something I wanted to share
22:02
They are using it to fund the protests, hide their cash, etc ☺️ https://bitcoinist.com/hong-kong-bitcoin-trading-breaks-ath/
Z
22:04
Zack
I didn't know tether is located in hong kong.
22:05
well, as long as their banking isn't in hong kong, I guess the political instability wont matter for them.
A
22:06
Aries
just prideful to see bitcoin being utilized for it's intended use.
Z
22:11
Zack
173 bitcoin is like $1.4 million.
There are around 140 000 millionaires in Hong Kong.

So in that week, less than 0.001% of Hong Kong's millionaires have used bitcoin to get their wealth out of the country.

Or maybe every one of the millionaires used bitcoin to get $10 of their money out of the country. haha.
A
22:11
Aries
lol
3 October 2019
Z
02:34
Zack
is this some kind of spam bot?
02:44
https://discord.gg/agNrnav discord has an #off-topic channel where you can discuss the bitcoin price.
This telegram group is for talking about the Amoveo blockchain.
Z
03:26
Zack
@CryptoMcFly49 offers to translate to spanish and French.
@ALGO94 maybe you have ideas on what is more important to translate?
M
03:33
McFly49
In reply to this message
I will try to do my best
03:43
Where can i check all the veo metrics like circulating supply and veo marketcap guys?
I cannot check corectly on coingecko
M
03:55
McFly49
Thanks Zack
Z
13:22
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/commit/577e17b2adbf064bc5efaa3ea3ee69cc5b6b4e89

I am implementing the details of how the merkle proofs for the sortition chains link up with their parents and descendents.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
15:07
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Zack, what's your take on this 5m investment Pantera made in decentralized derivatives platform Vega - layer 2 protocol built on Tendermint/Cosmos, according to reports?
K
15:21
K
In reply to this message
He said proof of stake isn’t secure
BC
15:45
Baudoin Collard
Has anyone used the A1 exchange recently? I have been trying to withdraw amoveo from the exchange for 2 weeks but with no success... Also after an initial reply from support ('technical problem'), I have received no update from them... Very bad service to say the least :-(
16:54
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Any link to his full remarks on this?
C
17:18
Callum Wright
In reply to this message
Vega isn't a L2. It's a L1 designed for automated market execution
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Sergey Sky invited Sergey Sky
4 October 2019
Z
02:47
Zack
there is a channel on our discord for that
02:51
yes
02:52
but not many people use it. qtrade is probably the best.
MF
02:52
Mr Flintstone
be careful, people selling well below market rate via otc most of the time are trying to scam
Z
02:54
Zack
This is not a place to discuss trading.
Z
10:23
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/using_governance.md
mr flinstone and I realized that with our new ability to bet on oracles that don't exist, we can make the futarchy process a lot simpler.
So we updated the documentation to reflect the new cheaper, faster, and better process.
👳🏽‍♂️ Hartej ZOKYO 🛡🔒🔑 invited 👳🏽‍♂️ Hartej ZOKYO 🛡🔒🔑
?Z
14:47
👳🏽‍♂️ Hartej ZOKYO 🛡🔒🔑
Hey everyone
A
17:51
ALGO
In reply to this message
Hello :)
Z
21:12
Zack
the sortition merkel proofs are pretty intense.
the sortition tree merkel proof is a list of sortition chain merkel proofs that each need to link to each other.
sortition chain merkel proofs are a merkle proof where each step involves running chalang code.
Z
22:06
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/sortition/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/txs/sortition_slash_tx.erl I started implementing the final tx type needed for sortition chains.
5 October 2019
B
08:43
Ben
Hi Zack, regarding the sortition_slash_tx.erl sortion_chain implementation and the 90% safety deposit/10% reward mechanic, would it make sense that this be designed to set the deposit/reward by futarchy or is it fixed to 90/10 for a particular reason?
Z
08:44
Zack
In reply to this message
I was planning to make the deposit size be a configuration value when you create a new sortition chain.
So it could be different for every sortition chain.
08:45
the optimal deposit size will depend on things like how expensive tx fees are, and how much money is in the sortition chain.
08:45
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/sortition/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/txs/sortition_new_tx.erl#L15
See, "deposit" is one of the variables when you make a new_sortition tx
B
08:51
Ben
I see that now, thanks. I can see how it would change based on the fees and value in a chain. Is it possible that someone could set the expiration to be indefinite, and thus, never expire?
Z
08:52
Zack
if you set the expiration to a high enough number, I guess that is the same as sending your money to a burn address.
08:53
we can set up warnings in the user interface so that it can warn you, or prevent you from making a chain that is more than 3 months in the future or some limit.
B
08:55
Ben
I was thinking some limit, even if it was a year, would be ideal, and perhaps and option to override that one year limit by adding an additional ignore 1-year limit argument from 0 to 1 or something if someone has a reason to set a year+ etc
Z
09:00
Zack
If governments can sell 100-year bonds, it seems like it should eventually be possible to have sortition chains that wont expire for 100 years.
09:01
im not sure anyone would ever want a product like that though.
B
09:09
Ben
You mentioned a random number generator scheme recently. Did you implement that yet?
Z
09:10
Zack
yes
09:10
we take 1 bit of entropy from each block hash
09:11
that way you can generate it from the headers.
So we don't need the light node to download any new data to have access to the entropy.
K
20:10
K
does amoveo have segwit?
Z
20:13
Zack
In reply to this message
Amoveo does not use bitcoin code
K
20:14
K
In reply to this message
Thanks
Z
21:54
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8090/main.html if no one matches these trades soon, the block reward will decrease
6 October 2019
CD
01:00
Crypt Dweller
The new Robin Hanson essay is gold, per usual. He also discusses PM so not totally irrelevant: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2019/09/dreamtime-games.html
01:00
Highly recommend the essay he hyperlinks in the first sentence too.
elt'NEG invited elt'NEG
Z
06:33
Zack
In reply to this message
Robin Hanson's essays often shatter my perspective on humanity.

If the powerful people are living in a fantasy and don't care about prediction markets, we will just have to focus on people who are not powerful. People who don't have the luxury to live in a fantasy. People who depend on making good decisions in order to survive, and don't care how high-status their decisions are.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
19:53
Zack
https://twitter.com/zack_bitcoin/status/1180806834816466945?s=20
democracy vs futarchy board game edition
Z
21:08
Zack
How would this even work?

To prevent sybil in democracy, they would need to be a finite sized team of verified people who signed up before the game starts.
but on the futarchy side, we could have it open ended so that anyone can make bets at any time.
21:17
Amoveo blocks are 10 minutes.
The shortest of an expiration period that we can put on a smart contract offer is about 10 minutes.

So if moves in the game were around 10 minutes or shorter, Amoveo futarchy could not be used to help make these decisions.
21:19
We could schedule one move every 6 hours. That way the participants on each team only have to interact with the game once every 12 hours.
A typical game is like 30 or 40 moves, so it would take less than 2 weeks.
7 October 2019
EA
01:28
Eric Arsenault
This would be a very cool experiment
Z
02:19
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8080/new_oracle.html it is now possible to make on-chain governance oracles from the light node.
03:41
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Not finding the vega discussion there
03:43
In reply to this message
Wasnt that basically his point - the people who tend to be most rational/efficient are those who can not afford not to be? And also happen to be the people who provide the much of the wisdom of the "wisdom of the crowd."

They are the fuel for prediction markets.
Z
08:28
Zack
In reply to this message
what is a vega?
MF
09:57
Mr Flintstone
http://139.59.144.76:8090/main.html
09:57
the first trade on this website pays you 20:1 if bitcoin drops 10% in the next 24 hours, starting in 3 hours
09:57
risk 0.25 make 5
09:59
it expires in a few hours
J
15:15
JOHNwick3's dog
Vega will be proof of stake
15:29
The primary on-chain governance mechanic in Vega is voting by network participants based on
their stake within the scope of the poll
A
16:26
ALGO
Zack So the game would be played between two governance models trying to figure out which one is superior to making decisions?
Z
19:29
Zack
In reply to this message
Right
L
19:42
Lanciaominer
hi @potat_o is it normal to have a pending payout of 0.312
19:42
first payout of 0.1 no problem currently pending of 0.312. thanks for help
Z
19:43
Zack
In reply to this message
He comes on every day or two. So you will get a response eventually
L
19:44
Lanciaominer
no problem i will wait for his reply :)
A
19:49
ALGO
In reply to this message
That sounds really fun actually, I would love to see something like that come to fruition but it would most likely need hundreds of trials in order to establish some sort of plausible notion of proof
OK
19:53
O K
In reply to this message
Sounds unusual, shoot me a DM with details and I'll look into it in a few hours :)
Z
19:59
Zack
In reply to this message
We could go head to head against another blockchain's governance mechanism
8 October 2019
A
03:55
ALGO
In reply to this message
Thanks for posting this immediatly Instinct. I'll do my best to help circulate and promote it
Matt K invited Matt K
NS
18:37
Nayan Savla
In reply to this message
🙌
A
20:44
ALGO
Hey everyone, just a heads up: The http://amoveo.io/ website is going through a soft-update which is mainly focusing on redrafting the language that is used to describe the project. The goal in mind is to make Amoveo more palpable and understandable to the average cryptocurrency enthusiast, speculator or anyone of a similar background.
9 October 2019
DV
01:04
Denis Voskvitsov
DV
Denis Voskvitsov 09.10.2019 00:59:28
hey guys
we updated Amoveo mobile wallet on Android with exchange (VEO/BTC/ETH) support and ton of fixes and minor improvements.

it's recommended to update to the latest version (1.3.6) if you use it.
MF
01:07
Mr Flintstone
kind of unrelated but is the plan to eventually have the mobile wallets be able to access the contracts marketplace too?
B
01:10
Beer
Would be good
DV
01:11
Denis Voskvitsov
we're not ready to implement it yet as mobile wallets don't use light node but just full node RPC API.
once we have contracts marketplace in web/desktop we'll place DAC contracts on mobile wallets improvements
Crypto Genius invited Crypto Genius
Z
06:16
Zack
Some people call channels "layer 2 tech".

I guess that means that channel factories are layer 2, and the channels inside of them are layer 3.

Amoveo sortition chains is being designed to have channel factories inside channel factories. It is layer N blockchain tech.
AK
15:10
A K
... not to be confused with nChain
K
15:32
K
In reply to this message
👍👍
S
19:41
SSDD
A
Amoveo News 09.10.2019 19:39:11
This week's newsletter covers Amoveo's appearance in CryptoJungle’s Understory series, new MyVEOWallet updates for Android devices and soft update of the Amoveo.io website.

Read more about it here: https://amoveo.substack.com/p/29-amoveo-featured-in-cryptojungle?r=13ymm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&utm_source=copy
Z
19:49
Zack
The mining difficulty is dropping fast. I wonder what is happening.
MF
20:14
Mr Flintstone
looks like chance on amoveo.tools
Z
20:18
Zack
In reply to this message
cool, that website is working again
DV
20:20
Denis Voskvitsov
it worked all the time, afair
K
21:02
K
In reply to this message
But the majority would like some free money right?
21:03
Every distributed ledger is built around the premise that people in general act like robots and have an incentive to make money right?
P
21:08
P
kek month old blast from the past but i read it and it was okay to keep
Z
22:44
Zack
In reply to this message
I review projects if I think it is possible that I can learn something from them to make amoveo better.
10 October 2019
N
00:11
NM$L
when big exchanges?
K
02:40
K
In reply to this message
Do you think there is a way to do delegated proof of work?
02:40
So only a select few pools create blocks super fast?
Z
02:52
Zack
im not sure what you mean
02:52
isn't mining with a pool already "delegated pow"?
04:02
So eth was a waste of time?
K
05:31
K
In reply to this message
There are still many many solo miners. Wouldn’t we be able to drastically shorten the block time in a more stable way by having a small max amount of entities who can produce blocks
Z
05:41
Zack
In reply to this message
Why would we want to shorten the block time?
Then there would be more blocks to download.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
10:39
Deleted Account
Hi admin, how many blocks confirmation does it need to deposit VEO?
Z
10:39
Zack
Where are you depositing?
10:39
Deleted Account
HitBTC
DV
10:44
Denis Voskvitsov
as of https://hitbtc.com/system-monitor VEO deposits are still disabled there
Z
10:45
Zack
https://qtrade.io/ people tend to have a good time with qtrade
11:00
Deleted Account
oh i see, thank you
Haiyan invited Haiyan
H
11:24
Haiyan
do you have Wechat group?
Z
11:40
Zack
In reply to this message
No
Dion Tsin invited Dion Tsin
N
12:20
NM$L
when binance
12:20
zack
JS
20:32
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Never say never
A
21:53
ALGO
In reply to this message
The team at Exan.tech has been in contact with representitives from Binance about listing procedures and we have forwarded requested documents they requested.
AK
21:54
A K
proofpic pls
A
21:54
ALGO
There is no guarantee that they will list the project
21:55
@denis_voskvitsov has been the point of contact, could you offer confirmation for my previous statement? Also I believe you shared some photos from a previous conference where you were able to meet some represenatives.
21:57
Maybe you can share those photos aswell :)
S
22:40
SSDD
N
NM$L 10.10.2019 12:20:31
when binance
22:40
zack
S
22:40
SSDD
JS
Jon Snow 10.10.2019 20:32:23
Never say never
DV
22:41
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
yep, that link above is a sneak peek of new opportunity :)
I
23:06
Instinct
Nice
11 October 2019
JS
00:43
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Wonder how much they asked for listing a no IEO/ICO and fair mined coin like VEO
DV
00:46
Denis Voskvitsov
nothing yet
10:07
Update from Augur
10:10
Wonder how long first mover advantage will last
10:10
(Assuming they can find traction)
Deleted invited Deleted Account
JS
10:54
Jon Snow
For Augur, I think their bigger advantage vs. Amoveo is not first mover advantage but they are sitting in a Ethereum ecosystem. That’s a good leverage.
DV
10:58
Denis Voskvitsov
also, they have settlement in DAI stablecoin, which is a big advantage too.
JS
11:25
Jon Snow
Yeah, that’s one of the benefit of being in the Ethereum ecosystem
Laura invited Laura
RL
11:57
R L
Yeah but any of these defi contracts can be duplicated on another smart contract chain like Aeternity. Will be interesting.
CD
12:42
Crypt Dweller
Zack Are you Christian?
[
16:53
[Riki]
Futarchian
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
19:19
Tromp
Wow great to see about a chance on binance, more liquidity would be amazing
Ka-Re invited Ka-Re
K
20:51
Ka-Re
I think this is a great opportunity for the project to become more popular. After all, buying through Visa / MasterCard is the easiest way!
20:51
I hope coin is already tradedable on exchanges.can I buy your coin with Visa / MasterCard on indacoin?
20:51
Is your coin purchasable with crypto only?
Š
20:52
Šea
In reply to this message
how so?
AK
20:58
A K
buyt BTC with a card and transfer to any exchange where VEO is trading
20:58
afair qtrade doesn't have stable coins, but hitbtc and gozo do have
20:58
so you avoid the risk
Z
20:58
Zack
don't use hitbtc, you can't withdraw
Z
22:39
Zack
http://159.89.87.58:8000/password.html keep your VEO safe. I made this tool for generating passwords.
12 October 2019
📽️BlogNeEmNeSplu📺 💻Den📸 invited 📽️BlogNeEmNeSplu📺 💻Den📸
??
01:16
📽️BlogNeEmNeSplu📺 💻Den📸
will there be an airdrop on a coin?
Z
01:25
Zack
In reply to this message
No. There is no amoveo air drop.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
19:16
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
His name is Zack, his name isn't Christian. Unless he has an alias, so, perhaps..
JS
23:11
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
LOL
13 October 2019
T
00:03
Tiago
In reply to this message
Im with this problem. I mail then. The answer:
Daniella Wagner (HitBTC)
Sep 25, 13:04 WEST
Dear Trader,

Thank you for reaching out! I understand how frustrating this delay must be. 
Our team is researching the issue and taking the necessary steps to fix it. Unfortunately, it takes more time than expected. While there has been progress with regard to our work, a great deal remains to be done.

Again, I’m sorry it takes us so long to get this point! I look forward to providing a much better experience in the months to come.
Kind regards,
Daniella Wagner
HitBTC Support Team
Z
00:03
Zack
It is recommended not to use hitbtc. Use qtrade.io
00:08
Deleted Account
Qtrade is great. Shame about the low volumes sometimes though.
DV
01:46
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
We didn't mention Exante actually in discussion, thought it's not a big secret, but still. And he understands that Amoveo is open source project with no specific company behind it.
[
03:09
[Riki]
In reply to this message
They dont see zack
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
12:51
Deleted Account
has veo own Blockchain?
saltinbas invited saltinbas
I
15:33
Instinct
In reply to this message
Yes
H
16:40
Hoshi
In reply to this message
I think it's great what Denis and the rest of Exante are doing for Amoveo. Thank you guys for all your efforts! Keep pushing!
NS
20:08
Nayan Savla
In reply to this message
👍
DV
20:16
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
thank you. but I'd like you to distinguish EXANTE from Exantech. we're part of the holding but separate entity with its own strategy.
14 October 2019
H
01:25
Hoshi
In reply to this message
👍
11:36
Deleted Account
Are there any Weixin and QQ communities in China?
Mark invited Mark
M
13:47
Mark
In reply to this message
yes
13:54
Deleted Account
Can you pull me in?
M
13:55
Mark
In reply to this message
615802348
13:56
Deleted Account
Thank you very much.
15:17
Not sure how big or secure is this exchange
eric invited eric
Deleted invited Deleted Account
15 October 2019
mob invited mob
MF
01:56
Mr Flintstone
never heard of this exchange before
I
02:01
Instinct
In reply to this message
I deposited a small amount like 10 hours ago, hasn’t turned up yet 😅
MF
02:45
Mr Flintstone
I wonder when we will see hash rate leave
02:46
reward dropped 33% earlier today
SH
04:16
Sam Hart
Amoveo mentioned briefly here: https://otherinter.net/web3/headless-brands/
El Chapo invited El Chapo
MF
04:52
Mr Flintstone
I’d say on chain governance is a stretch but it’s right for the most part :)
JS
06:41
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
A dead chain?
08:35
Deleted Account
how many coins with amoveo final
Z
08:36
Zack
we don't know. Amoveo has a governance mechanism so that the block reward can be adjusted.
08:38
Deleted Account
mining use cpu?or gpu
Z
08:39
Zack
FPGA
08:39
Deleted Account
professional machine
08:40
thats great,the power consumption must be very low
08:41
where to buy
08:41
Zack
Z
08:44
Zack
qtrade.io is probably the best for now
08:44
Deleted Account
ths
08:44
and the pool?
Z
08:44
Zack
veopool and amoveopool both seem to work well
08:45
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo this is the main page I maintain. It answers questions like this.
08:45
Deleted Account
I can't read perl
Z
08:46
Zack
I also can't read perl.
Amoveo doesn't use any perl code.

The link I shared is to a README document written in English.
08:49
Deleted Account
I want have a try,but I have not a miner mechine,is there an alternative
08:50
just like cpu or gpu
Z
08:51
Zack
links to mining software are on the README https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
08:52
Deleted Account
ok, i see
08:52
ths
08:54
There is a git merge must be error
Z
08:54
Zack
that is a test for doing lightning payments.
what error?
08:54
Deleted Account
#<<<<<<< HEAD
request(1, 'mine_block', [1, 10000000], 1)
request(1, 'sync', [[127,0,0,1], 3020], 0.05)
request(1, 'sync', [[127,0,0,1], 3030], 1)
request(2, 'sync', [[127,0,0,1], 3010], 0.05)
request(3, 'sync', [[127,0,0,1], 3010], 1)
def dont_do():
request(1, 'channel_close', [[127,0,0,1], 3030])
request(2, 'channel_close', [[127,0,0,1], 3030])
request(1, 'txs', [[127,0,0,1], 3020], 0.05)
request(1, 'txs', [[127,0,0,1], 3030], 0.3)
request(1, 'mine_block', [1, 10000000], 0.02)
request(2, 'sync', [[127,0,0,1], 3010], 0.05)
request(3, 'sync', [[127,0,0,1], 3010], 0.05)
#=======
#request(1, 'channel_close', [[127,0,0,1], 3030], 0.1)
#request(2, 'channel_close', [[127,0,0,1], 3030], 0.1)
#request(1, 'txs', [[127,0,0,1], 3030], 0.05)
#request(1, 'txs', [[127,0,0,1], 3020], 0.3)
#request(1, 'mine_block', [1, 10000000], 0.05)
#request(1, 'sync', [[127,0,0,1], 3030], 0.05)
#request(1, 'sync', [[127,0,0,1], 3020], 0.3)
#>>>>>>> master
Z
08:55
Zack
this is a comment symbol in python: #
That stuff is all commented out.
08:55
if you had actually run the test, you would see that there is no error.
08:56
Deleted Account
It’s not a merge conflict?
08:56
#>>>>>>> master this comment is very confused🙂
09:04
Deleted Account
nice
09:05
The testnet is working?which params start with?
Z
09:07
Zack
there is no testnet currently.
there is documentation for running tests here: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/merging-and-testing/unit_testing.md
09:08
Deleted Account
I must mine on main network?
09:08
ok
Z
09:08
Zack
you can mine blocks on the test node using CPU. api:mine_block().
09:10
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/tree/master/docs/api here is documentation for many other commands you can try issuing to your test node.
xingxing invited xingxing
x
13:57
xingxing
hi bosses any one know A1 exchange?
13:58
I deposit my eth and want to buy veo but still not showed on balance with 300+ confirms.
13:58
😭
I
14:00
Instinct
In reply to this message
@satomoto can you help?
Z
14:01
Zack
they have a channel on discord
x
14:03
xingxing
I have tried to contact them by telegram, tweet and mail, but there is still no news.
14:04
i will go to discord hope me good luck
s
15:14
saltinbas
In reply to this message
Hi Dennis, I have bet on oracle id FF7fy+ODQjEDTF09AiQ/qXUA9y7sHxrMZux/sr31PWc= with myveowallet.com
15:15
The interface is pretty simple
15:15
Thanks for your work
15:16
I also use you amoveowallet ios which is also nice
15:16
Maybe you can add oracle feature to this ios app which will make people use oracles
15:17
I have also used exhange in that ios app to buy veo with couple of times
15:18
It is also working well
15:19
One thing is not working is that when I try to send veo from ios app to the wallet restored in myveowallet.com
15:20
I tried to use scan QR but it did not work so I copied and pasted the wallet address to ios app
NS
15:25
Nayan Savla
In reply to this message
👍
s
15:40
saltinbas
In reply to this message
Hi Zack
15:40
I habe read you discussion about POS
15:40
imo you are right in terms of game theory
15:41
but people do not act rationally as it is assumed in game theory
15:42
Take ultimatum game for example
15:43
according to game theroy, people should accept the minimum amount of offer
15:43
in ultimatum game
15:44
but when they made experiments they found that people do not act rationally and do not accept this minumum amount
Z
19:43
Zack
Over time the people with more rational strategies will keep winning more of the money, and less rational people will keep losing money.
So the distribution of money holders becomes more rational over time.
A
19:51
ALGO
If I am not mistaken you are defining rationality in the case of PoS as suseptibility to bribe attacks due to human nature wanting to maximize profit/utility correct? Is it not more rational to want the success of the PoS based blockchain network for longer periods as apposed to a short term bribe that compromises network integrity'?
Z
19:52
Zack
Each user is motivated to increase how much value that they control personally.
s
20:03
saltinbas
I have basic question about oracles
Z
20:03
Zack
you can ask about oracles here.
Also, there is some documentation about that: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/oracle.md
s
20:04
saltinbas
When I created an oracle lets say 31st december veo price is above 120 usd
20:04
Who will give the result to this oracle
20:04
The one who created the oracle?
AK
20:05
A K
Anyone can participate in any oracle
20:05
just needs to commit some Veos
Š
20:07
Šea
In reply to this message
Had some issues with a1 before but they always solved it. Contact them on discord, i think they are most responsive there
x
20:32
xingxing
In reply to this message
I try to cointact them thanks alot
AK
21:07
A K
Zack have you reviewed Gnosis lately? Any significant changes - is your Github table up to date?
Z
21:11
Zack
In reply to this message
the gnosis review is not up to date. I haven't reviewed them in a while.
16 October 2019
MF
06:33
Mr Flintstone
someone is spoofing zacks telegram account and messaging people “Whatsup, what are you up to?”
06:34
like that is ever something he would say
06:34
Make sure you check “groups in common” if you get a pm from anyone
Z
09:17
Zack
In reply to this message
Be careful
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
14:13
Topab
Competitors taking off seems like https://twitter.com/synthetix_io/status/1184309913968709632
AK
17:32
A K
In reply to this message
Does it include the volumes of the SKRW hack? )
Z
20:13
Zack
https://twitter.com/gluk64/status/1184399877146587136?s=19
Is this an issue for sortition chains?