13 February 2019
M
18:51
Minieep21
Voted :)
More coverage will be better
ŽM
18:51
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
yes plis, vote VEO, POR is a great project
14 February 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
SS
00:18
Spike Spiegel
“For an answer which cannot be expressed the question too cannot be expressed.

The riddle does not exist.

If a question can be put at all, then it can also be answered.”

Wittgenstein solving old time philosophy problems with Amoveo
Hayvan invited Hayvan
H
03:21
Hayvan
Most peculiar this project guys, just discovered it. One person! And only one interview on YouTube I was able to find
J
03:25
Jeans
Hi, I have a question about the dominant assurance contract.
At the beginning of the contract, when investors have not yet invested for the entire contract, is it possible for someone to bet on true with a lower odds. For example, to pay to prevent the creation of the public good?
[
03:26
[Riki]
In reply to this message
1 is enough
03:26
Animation
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Z
03:32
Zack
I do most of the typing, but a lot of people besides me are making decisions about what should be written.
03:33
In reply to this message
with the dominant assurance contract market, which is being used to have the white paper translated to Arabic, yes, someone could mess it up that way.
In the future we will prevent this kind of betting for dominant assurance contract markets.
I might turn this on in the next day or so.
ŽM
03:36
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
Very nice!!! Good project!!
J
04:18
Jeans
In reply to this message
Ok thanks Zack for that clarification. But in fact, it might be interesting to allow people to oppose the creation of a controversial public good by paying for it. Like for exemple an airport. If the majority wishes the creation of the public good, the bets can be bought until returning to the fund raising. I think this possibility is interesting.
Z
04:46
Zack
In reply to this message
The question of whether we should build an airport is important.
Futarchy markets are the ideal tool for communities to make decisions, like whether they should build an airport.

Dominant assurance contracts are for raising funds, not for making decisions.

I could see someone using both these tools together for the same project.
04:47
Ultimately, Amoveo is a platform for turning complete contracts.
So we can write contracts to do anything.
J
05:10
Jeans
In reply to this message
Ok I understand. So the most logical is to use the futurchy to decide to build or not build the airport, and use the dominant assurance contract to raise construction funds. It's nice, thank you!
Deleted invited Deleted Account
07:15
Deleted Account
what is the cirulating supply of amoveo ?
MF
07:51
Mr Flintstone
60k or so
T
15:31
Topab
In reply to this message
You deserve it. Wish the best for the project
Z
19:33
Zack
We had that issue where if accounts are deleted, once they are recreated the nonces can be easily accidentally reused which was a security issue that caused someone to spend tokens they had not meant to spend.

We delete channels from the database when they are done.
So I was trying to analyze if nonce reuse could be an issue.

I notice Constantinople ethereum upgrade is fixing a similar nonce reuse issue.

So now I am thinking we should do an update to prevent channels or accounts from being deleted.
We should keep a record of the fact that data was deleted around so that smart contracts can behave rationally when they read data from the blockchain.

Maybe we could allow people to reuse an account or channel slot on the condition that they only use higher nonces than the previous generation of that account or channel.
Tranpaca joined group by link from Group
15 February 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
00:13
Zack
https://anarchapulco.com/schedule/
Looks like Paul Sztorc is on the 16th.
Can anyone record it for me?
DV
01:11
Denis Voskvitsov
hi all

oracle K4jLTsvaLsOlqVFvwUfmO7J82CY75h+H6KMGrmUVsnI= has been closed and showed a little but possible correlation between decreasing block reward and price growth.

so governance oracle has been created proposing block reward decrease by 33%.

let's rule, governance oracle is http://explorer.veopool.pw/?input=abQmqMdgpas0zRpAji1DShVFD7kauQrCrZJJC6005c4=
SS
01:14
Spike Spiegel
"block reward by 50%"
01:14
Typo?
DV
01:15
Denis Voskvitsov
I guess it is a bug in veopool explorer. governance amount is set to 50, but its effect is calculated differently for increase and decrease AFAIU. so it could be increase by 50% or decrease by 33.33%
Z
01:15
Zack
this oracle closed in state: true
this is a question oracle
asks: YVZCUVYyeGpaRUZhWm10c1ZqWkNlbkZ6ZG1WaFFXTmhkbkEyWWpoUUwxQTFaV3czY3pOTWJVUXlaejA9
starts: 51865
current type: true
done timer: 53729
["oracle","K4jLTsvaLsOlqVFvwUfmO7J82CY75h+H6KMGrmUVsnI=",1,"iPPWlcdAZfklV6BzqsveaAcavp6b8P/P5el7s3LmD2g=",51865,1,0,"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=","BHVfQWRx7I1xmlWw5KJ7l9ijq4tcobFCub68jsmCGaEQXSr/hi0Vpz8+wa0v8ytcTEUu4wJwTfC+7q6r+CPYS20=",53729,0,0]
DV
01:16
Denis Voskvitsov
yep, that was question oracle
gov oracle is abQmqMdgpas0zRpAji1DShVFD7kauQrCrZJJC6005c4=
Z
01:16
Zack
"YVZCUVYyeGpaRUZhWm10c1ZqWkNlbkZ6ZG1WaFFXTmhkbkEyWWpoUUwxQTFaV3czY3pOTWJVUXlaejA9"
is true?
01:16
that isn't english
01:16
or any language I know
DV
01:16
Denis Voskvitsov
we discussed it with you some time ago
there is an issue in light node with decoding question
DV
01:17
Denis Voskvitsov
Z
Zack 02.02.2019 01:53:12
oh, I must have not programmed the light node to display the text. it is displaying the hash of the text.
Z
01:17
Zack
anyway, a futarchy market cannot be on-chain, it is supposed to be in the channels.
01:18
and we need 4 oracles, for the 4 possible outcomes so we can measure the correlation
01:18
we look at the price in the market before the oracle closes. the final closing state of a futarchy oracle does not matter, only the prices during gambling.
01:19
I guess I wasn't clear enough before. Maybe I should make another guide for using futarchy
01:20
or maybe we should just improve this guide
01:22
In reply to this message
Yes, you are right, we need to fix the light node to display the right text. looks like the text is displayed correctly in the explorer, so there must be a way
T
01:32
Tromp
When do we know if reward drops 33%
01:40
0.4 veo per block mmm
01:40
How do we participate in the governance market? Zack
DV
01:52
Denis Voskvitsov
1) run a full node (https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/getting-started/turn_it_on.md)
2) attach to its shell make prod-attach
3) fund it somehow (api:pubkey(). is your address)
4) send oracle bet command api:oracle_bet(base64:decode("abQmqMdgpas0zRpAji1DShVFD7kauQrCrZJJC6005c4="), <decision>, amount * 10^8).

where <decision> is 1 for increase by 50%, 2 for decrease by 33%, 3 for no change
Z
01:57
Zack
We didn't use futarhy correctly this time, but I think we can all already agree that lowering the block reward now is a good thing to do.

If anyone thinks this is a bad idea, they should speak up soon so we can do a proper futarhy market for you.
[
02:37
[Riki]
+1 for lowering
T
02:41
Tromp
+2 for lowering
А
02:42
Андрюхин
How much BR is now ? 0.66 ?
T
02:44
Tromp
0.6 i think
OK
02:46
O K
I'm not saying it's a good or bad idea, just stating a fact: while some miners may turn off and move to other coins, so the ones left may not experience a 1:1 decrease in profits, decreasing the block reward directly affects mining *pool* incentives (I.e. it's 1:1, a fixed pie), making it less likely that new pools will try to compete. That can mean whatever you want it to. I take no stance.
SS
02:54
Spike Spiegel
+3 for lowering
M
03:10
Minieep21
+4
AK
03:11
Alex K
++
А
03:22
Андрюхин
+6
J
03:30
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈
+7
Я
03:41
Ярослав
+8
MF
04:30
Mr Flintstone
I don’t think it’s gonna be easy to raise it back up, so let’s keep that in mind when we do this kind of monetary policy by nakamoto consensus
LB
04:31
Luke B
In reply to this message
This is absolutely true
T
04:34
Tromp
If it is needed in the future i guess that would be the rational choice. The good thing is its dynamic and it adapts to the needs in a certain time period
MF
04:35
Mr Flintstone
also we need to be very sensitive about monetary policy in general. I cannot stress this enough
04:36
lowering the block reward every time we’re in a low price environment will end up having the same effect as pushing string eventually if amoveo doesn’t have real users
04:40
does anyone remember when we lowered it the first time by 33%?
04:41
ok, it was end of September 2018
04:41
or so
OK
04:42
O K
In reply to this message
A telegram vote isn't sufficient?
04:42
In reply to this message
I remember. Almost had to shut down AP
LB
04:42
Luke B
In reply to this message
I think mr. flinstones concern is that everyone is voting yes in order to get the price to pump
OK
04:43
O K
In reply to this message
I was being facetious
04:43
:)
LB
04:43
Luke B
👍
MF
04:44
Mr Flintstone
I have been of the opinion since the beginning that the block reward would probably go down consistently over time, so it’s not like I am opposed to this kind of reward decreasing in general
OK
04:45
O K
Do we want mining decentralization anymore?
04:45
In reply to this message
Ignore at own peril
04:45
Long time members will remember I ran at a loss for a long time.
MF
04:45
Mr Flintstone
not too worried about mining centralization before we have ASICs. we’re almost just as vulnerable to devastating attack if one pool has 70% or not because of all the hash power that exists outside amoveo
04:46
it’s just I am saying monetary policy tools should not be taken lightly
OK
04:46
O K
What is the effect on ASIC incentives of lowering reward?
MF
04:46
Mr Flintstone
think of it as a pool of capital we are spending that we can’t get back
OK
04:47
O K
I think we can. Zack has pushed for flexible monetary policy since the beginning. He will want to raise when price goes up.
AK
04:48
A K
ASIC reward should be viewed in USD distributed to miners per day
04:48
not VEO per day
MF
04:48
Mr Flintstone
there is what people think will happen and then there is reality
04:48
This is a public blockchain not a startup
LB
04:48
Luke B
@Jbreezy0 Do you think we should wait? Why?
MF
04:48
Mr Flintstone
I just want people to understand the seriousness of doing this again to rescue veo from a low price
OK
04:48
O K
In reply to this message
All we can do is think. None of us know the future.
LB
04:49
Luke B
I think people will not be as eager to raise reward when price goes up
MF
04:49
Mr Flintstone
look what happens to the credibility of monetary policy of small countries when they abuse their tools
OK
04:49
O K
I still think making more value us the best way to raise demand > screwing with supply
04:49
What's the hurry?
04:49
Greed
04:50
The pumps will come
04:54
But I won't be participating in the oracle or the market.
MF
04:54
Mr Flintstone
for what it’s worth I think the oracle is well designed to handle this situation
04:55
especially when it’s as controversial as this
OK
04:55
O K
I haven't heard anyone actually speak out against it yet
04:55
Just words of caution from two people apparently abstaining, and everyone else in favour
04:56
But I agree it's well suited to handle it
05:57
Deleted Account
I am, like last time opposed. Mining rewards favor new users vs holders. Amoveo will not succeed by favoring holders to new users.
T
07:00
Tromp
In reply to this message
I think new users come from price going up, just how I think this market goes now. People dont pay attention to low vol or low price projects
07:01
Deleted Account
-1 for lowering
07:01
(not a miner)
T
07:02
Tromp
Right now there seems to be a lot of sell pressure coming from miners. I am a miner as well but I dont sell, however there doesnt seem to be enough demand right now to cover miners selling
07:02
Deleted Account
ui needs to be 1000x better for everything
07:03
make that work maybe lower then as reward xD
T
07:03
Tromp
True as well
07:04
I think if price goes up, more resources can go towards those goals. But at the end this is all an experiment and we trully wont know how it all goes if the reward is lowered
07:05
We can assume sell pressure will reduce, just assume
08:03
Deleted Account
hi guys
08:04
I know many good things bout oracle implementation in amoveo
08:04
but what about augur? what is the priciple they use in oracles?
08:05
it short, amoveo oracles are descision markets
08:05
and what about augur?
MF
08:24
Mr Flintstone
parts of the augur oracle are pretty similar to the amoveo oracle
08:24
augur breaks up the reporting into discrete time intervals for disputing, or rounds
08:25
it uses betting like amoveo does, but you’re betting using REP
08:26
and if nobody disputes the option with the most money on it for long enough, it settles like amoveo oracles
08:27
The difference is that, if it looks like an oracle will settle as a lie you can’t fork the ether in the augur smart contract since that would imply forking ethereum, but in amoveo we are supposed to fork the entire chain
08:33
so in augur they have to make the rule that the side of the oracle with the most REP gets the eth in the betting contract when the entire process finishes
08:35
you can imagine then that one of the requirements for security is that the market cap of rep needs to be higher than the amount of eth being bet in augur, so it prevents the situation where an attacker takes a huge bet in augur then buys up all the rep to give themselves the eth in the reporting stage
08:39
so you need to convince people to buy and hold rep to keep the market cap high, so you need to pay REP holders fees
08:45
a way to approximate how much in fees needs to be charged is that in the future Rep holders will be paid fees in dai, so we can assume rep holders will need to demand more than the United States risk free rate in annual fees
08:47
but if the market cap of rep needs to be held at 7.5x the open interest in eth, there needs to be lots of fees taken out of the eth to satisfy the us risk free rate of yield for the rep that is 7.5x the value of the eth
08:48
so it really depends on if you can get enough activity and turnover in augur to have fees be low
EW
09:43
Eli W
In reply to this message
+1
09:56
Deleted Account
thanx vm for answer
09:57
i'll read carefully
Z
13:12
Zack
In reply to this message
Augur's oracle is a lot closer to voting than betting.
13:14
I think the biggest issue with lowering the block reward is that it lowers the incentive to build an asic.
One solution to this is to commit to raising the reward once Asics exist.
Tv
13:24
Tarrence van As
@Jbreezy0 great comparison, most compelling articulation I've seen
Z
15:22
Zack
In reply to this message
I don't remember. What happened?
S
15:23
Sy
Pools get a % just like you so they earn 33% less aswell
Z
15:25
Zack
oh, he means he almost had to shut down due to lack of income. I understand
S
15:25
Sy
In reply to this message
it says decrease by 33%...
Z
15:26
Zack
a 50-point governance oracle can either increase by 50% or decrease by around 33%

We did it this way to that if we increase by 50 points, and decrease by 50 points, we end where we started.
Š
16:54
Šea
In reply to this message
+1
AK
17:57
A K
read this re Veil
17:58
Ain’t they stealing fees from REP holders?
17:58
they’re using outcomes of Augur oracles withouth paying the trading fees
MF
22:51
Mr Flintstone
I think they probably just layer the fees on top
22:51
the veil fees
AK
22:52
A K
Yep, they get their fees
22:52
Rep holders get 0
MF
22:52
Mr Flintstone
the fees paid to rep holders are still basically zero since rep market cap is so high relative to the open interest
AK
22:52
A K
Free ride?
22:52
In reply to this message
Well yeah
MF
22:53
Mr Flintstone
I would think that veil users would have to pay the rep holder fee if the market cap ratio got less favorable, but I am not super familiar with their system
22:54
it is kind of weird how they wrap the eth, so I’m not exactly sure how wrapped eth interacts with the augur smart contracts
22:54
so maybe they are providing what augur refers to as “parasitic open interest”, but I think we would have seen a lot of outcry from augur community about this so it isn’t likely imo
Z
22:55
Zack
I think veil supports different markets with different oracles.
Sometimes the veil team acts as a central authority to determine the outcome of their centralized oracle. other times they use augur's oracle.
MF
22:58
Mr Flintstone
the augur security model breaks down if too much money is making side bets on augur oracles without being inside the system and paying fees. problem is it’s easy to do this since anyone can reference the augur contract state from a different contract
22:58
Amoveo doesn’t have this problem cuz we just fork the chain if we need to
22:59
In reply to this message
I hope they don’t act as a centralized source of truth, but idk much about them
Z
23:01
Zack
In reply to this message
https://veil.co/feeds
It isn't a secret. see for yourself.
MF
23:04
Mr Flintstone
I think they use this for the price where they provide you liquidity before oracle settlement but after market expires
23:05
“Because Veil maintains a collection of data feeds to report on certain markets, Veil can automatically post the outcome to Augur when the markets expire. Veil then lets you exchange your shares for Veil Ether based on the implied value of the shares at the the reported outcome of the market. Veil takes a 1% fee during this early settlement process.”
Z
23:24
Zack
So the feed is only for their internal purposes when they act as reporters on augur? That is weird.
T
23:26
Topab
I agree with @Jbreezy0, monetary policy should not be moved frequently or the protocol will be perceived as a country central bank
23:27
I am not in a hurry and I know that when this get built and users come price will respond
Z
23:29
Zack
In reply to this message
Do you think we should make a futarchy market to find out if lowering the block reward is the right choice? Would you participate in this market?
T
23:34
Topab
If "right choice" is short term price increase I am not interested. I believe in the long term this constant reward changes may harm the project but I guess such futarchy market is more difficult to create
Z
23:35
Zack
In reply to this message
Now with the direct p2p derivatives, it isn't so hard to make long term bets
T
23:49
Topab
But that would not be for futarchy on deciding reward
23:50
I would start using Amoveo if ux were simple enough. P2p sounds very interesting
Z
23:52
Zack
sure it would be for futarchy.
The on-chain oracle is just for reporting on the outcome of off-chain futarchy markets.
23:52
p2p is brand new, it is still in a somewhat beta stage, I haven't made any big announcement yet
16 February 2019
T
00:20
Topab
I understand p2p as a bet between 2 individuals, is that right?
T
02:25
Tromp
I remember some time ago someone was working on ledger wallet integration, is that still going?
MF
02:40
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
in this context it means bets between 2 people that don’t have to go through a server first
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
SS
07:40
Spike Spiegel
07:40
Uniswap is essentially public good - there is no rent extraction for the developers
Z
07:50
Zack
In reply to this message
yes. the advantages are 2:
1) now we don't have to lock up so much money to enforce the bet.
2) now we don't need a centralized server to take legal risk.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
TG
14:17
Toby Ganger
still having those circulating supply issues on CMC huh?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
17 February 2019
Max invited Max
Cryptoshib invited Cryptoshib
C
03:52
Cryptoshib
Hey Admin you there?
OK
03:52
O K
There are probably at least a couple of us around
C
03:54
Cryptoshib
Found you guys on discord, i'll take the convo there
Z
04:19
Zack
The only thing that changed about being listed on cmc is that now we have 3 people a day trying to sell me something.
OK
04:19
O K
In reply to this message
😂 very true
04:20
That may be to do with the market cap calculation problem... But no idea if that would change anything
04:20
Maybe if we fix that we can have 6 people a day selling us things
Z
04:20
Zack
we got the bad parts, but not the good parts.
TG
06:28
Toby Ganger
I think the market cap thing is an issue....because until then it would be at the bottom of cmc
06:32
Deleted Account
What exactly is exantechs role in Veo?
06:33
In other words: what is their incentive for contributing the amount of work they did?
Z
06:33
Zack
In reply to this message
I am guessing that they bought some Veo. I am not sure.
06:34
Maybe they want to prevent corruption and help communities make better decisions.
06:34
Deleted Account
Alright, thanks for clarifying.
06:34
Sounds like a noble goal.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
08:20
Zack
I added some features to the P2P derivatives tool.
Now it has an interface for closing the channel in the case where your partner disappeared, or refuses to cooperate.
And an interface to prevent your partner from closing at the wrong state.
and an interface for closing the channel once time timer runs out and you are allowed to close it without your partner's permission.
Z
08:37
Zack
17zed/N0Ux50SljWJU+ZYZr64F6+6muGDnCRIceCPuc=
I made this oracle in the testnet.
It is asking "<<1+1=2>>", so we know it will return "true".
It expires in about 600 blocks, which can take anywhere from 1 minute to 10 hours on the testnet.
I want to bet that it will return "true", and give away my testnet tokens. it is like a testnet fountain, but you have to test out the P2P derivatives tool in order to get the free testnet tokens.
Send me your address, and open up the derivatives tool with the light node https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo
SS
09:42
Spike Spiegel
What's the status of governance variable futarchy?
SS
11:08
Spike Spiegel
Is it possible to create pure gambling app on top of Amoveo?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
11:53
Deleted Account
Hello guys
OK
11:54
O K
In reply to this message
Need proof
M
12:23
Minieep21
lol definitely fake
Z
15:37
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes. Amoveo is a tool for programming arbitrary financial contracts. Gambling is a type of financial contract.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
18:25
Zack
Now I am adding scalar oracle capabilities to the p2p derivatives mechanism.
Z
19:04
Zack
The light node is now capable of making scalar p2p bets, next I will add resolving scalar bets.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
18 February 2019
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
02:36
Zack
I successfully used the p2p tool to close a channel that was used for a scalar oracle bet.
Looks like stablecoins will be possible soon.
02:39
im thinking of making an interface optimized for people who want to trade stablecoins. So they can see numbers that make sense from that perspective.
02:40
probably first we should get some people to test it.
02:40
im thinking of hiring some people to let me stream their desktop while they attempt to do various things with the light node.
I heard this is one of the quickest ways to find out bad design misfeatures.
M
02:59
Minieep21
I'm up for testing if you need :)
B
04:01
Ben
we should Schedule a "Testdrive-Day" and do a consolidated event :P
Z
04:01
Zack
In reply to this message
No, don't rush it.
B
04:16
Ben
yeah, i thought about the "inner Circle" here first
04:16
and then take it from their
04:16
maybe next Weekend.
04:17
people tend to have more time @weekends
Z
05:02
Zack
imalk helped with testing for a while, but now he went off-line. does anyone else want to do testing next?
Z
05:18
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8070/otc_derivatives.html?mode=testnet
Here is the tool to initiate a p2p derivative. you don't have to download anything if you do it this way.
05:25
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/getting-started/p2p_derivatives_beta.md
I made some documentation about testing p2p derivatives on the testnet.
Z
06:16
Zack
I purchased a stablecoin contract from Mr Flintstone on the testnet.
MF
06:16
Mr Flintstone
took 3 or so blocks the first time, which is 3 min on testnet
06:17
after you have messaging credits it’s 1 block
Z
06:18
Zack
is it?
you don't have to wait around for the channel to be live. if you give it to the full node, it is in the tx_pool.
If you are comfortable with zeroth confirmation txs, then I think it can be done instantly.
assuming you already have credits.
MF
06:20
Mr Flintstone
Oh, yeah I guess if you both have credits it can be instant
Z
06:21
Zack
we probably need a tool for seeing your credits on the messaging server, and for buying more while you aren't making contracts. otherwise this could get annoying for people.
06:21
the messaging server actually is requiring like 4 confirmations right now if you want to buy credits.
06:21
I should probably lower it to 1 confirmation.
Z
06:38
Zack
Paul Sztorc talked about blockchain oracles at anarchapulco
http://bitcoinhivemind.com/presentations/anarchapulco-2019.pdf
http://bitcoinhivemind.com/presentations/anarchapulco-2019-speech.pdf
Here is the slides and a transcript of what he said.
Tv
07:20
Tarrence van As
Great job on the P2P derivatives
07:22
Could we build a pin board service that aggregates unmatched P2P derivatives and makes it easy for people to find counter parties?
07:22
Similar to radar relay for 0x?
Z
07:23
Zack
we have a tool for storing unmatched derivatives. we built that one first.
07:23
the full node can act as an order book for people doing trades, it matches the trades in single price batches.
The trading interface is integrated with the light node wallet.html page.
Tv
07:26
Tarrence van As
Awesome. Will read more later
Deleted invited Deleted Account
12:03
Deleted Account
Hello
12:12
Hello admin My name is Patrick Wieland , I work on a website and we have a YouTube channel. I would like to attract major investors to the project through our Hispanic Community, we have members who would love to know your project. I would like to contact the marketing manager of this project.
SS
12:21
Spike Spiegel
Can you create Amoveo video explainer?
12:26
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Yes DM for details😊
Z
15:45
Zack
In reply to this message
It's funny because Latinos never say "hispanic".

I am not interested in paying you.
SS
16:01
Spike Spiegel
😂
S
17:14
Sy
In reply to this message
😂👍
T
17:31
Tromp
What happened to the futarchy market on blok reward increase or decrease?
Z
17:32
Zack
In reply to this message
We made it wrong.
Then we gave up and just decided to lower the reward.
T
17:32
Tromp
Oh ok hahaha
Z
17:33
Zack
If you disagree, you can make a futarchy market to show that we should raise it again.
T
17:37
Tromp
No, I have no issue with that. How long until it kicks in and what is the new reward?
Z
17:37
Zack
It is lowering by 30%. I think about 5 days.
T
17:38
Tromp
Okk thanks
SS
18:23
Spike Spiegel
What if governance variable has almost zero correlation with another thing perceived as public good?
18:24
Ultimate bikeshedding?
Z
18:26
Zack
If you only care about the thing that has zero correlation, then you don't care about the gov variable at all.

Like, I could either have popcorn or yogurt as a snack. My decision has 0 correlation with how much money you have.
So you don't care what I have for my snack.

Different people care about different things.
Some people want Amoveo to have a high market cap, other people want to reduce the murder rate or whatever.
We can make multiple futarchy markets about the same thing.
So we can know that politician A is going to make the murder rate go down, and that politician A is uncorrelated with the price of Amoveo.
Toni invited Toni
Deleted invited Deleted Account
19 February 2019
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Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
19:20
Tromp
Hey Zack is there a block size limit on Amoveo?
Z
19:21
Zack
yes, it is one of the variables controlled by the governance mechanism
19:21
it is currently set to store around 600 txs per block
T
19:21
Tromp
Okk thanks and what is the actual size pf the blockchain?
Z
19:24
Zack
looks like we are currently storing 400 mb of blocks.
You don't need all these blocks to run a full node, you just have to download them the first time to sync.

Amoveo uses merkelized state, so you can choose to prune or keep any parts of the state that are interesting to you. As long as you keep all the headers, you can verify anything else.
T
19:24
Tromp
Perfect thanks 👍🏻
SS
19:48
Spike Spiegel
why other blockchains aren't using such design? it seems efficient
Z
19:49
Zack
In reply to this message
bitcoin and ethereum use merkelization to prune their databases a lot as well
19:50
bitcoin stores by txid instead of by account, so it doesn't work as well.
Ethereum stores by account, so it is very similar to Amoveo
19:51
The biggest difference between Amoveo and Ethereum is that Amoveo includes with each block all the merkel proofs you would need to verify that block.
So with Amoveo, if you just have the headers, you can verify the block just as well as if you were storing all of the consensus state.
19:52
I guess the reason this design isn't popular is because people tend to focus on optimizing for bandwidth instead of for storage.
This design is significantly more expensive as far as bandwidth goes. Each merkel proof is like 256*16*6 bytes long, significantly larger than the txs they are being used to verify.
Axel invited Axel
Z
19:55
Zack
But I tend to think on a larger scale.
With Amoveo's design, we can verify the blocks in any order.
So instead of running a single computer in a single location to be your full node, you could run 100 computers around the world, and each would verify a different 1% of the blocks, each would store a different 1% of the consensus state.

I feel like making the verification process parallelizable was more important than minimizing bandwidth.
Because if every cost is parallelizable, there is no limit on our growth.
20:00
Check out this email I got from Coinmarketcap:

Hi,

Our support rep has indicated that your request has been resolved. Please note that it may take some time for the supply information changes to be reflected on the website.

If you believe that the changes have not been reflected correctly after 72 hours, please reply to this email to notify the support team.

Please understand that we have our own grading rubric to calculate circulating supply, which is applied across the board for all coins listed on our site.

According to our rubric:

Circulating Supply is the best approximation of the number of coins that are circulating in the market and in the general public's hands.
Total Supply is the total amount of coins in existence right now (minus any coins that have been verifiably burned).
Max Supply the best approximation of the maximum amount of coins that will ever exist in the lifetime of the cryptocurrency.

As a result, we do not consider tokens that are held by the team, founders, privately allocated to big investors or put away for future use (marketing, bounty programs, ecosystem development etc) as part of circulating supply because they were never technically available to the public. This is regardless of whether the tokens are "unlocked", able to be traded, or will be distributed in the future. This is why we track the addresses so that we can update the circulating supply information dynamically as tokens flow into circulation.

In your case, your circulating supply calculates to 47,046 VEO, as per our grading rubric. This will be reflected on our site shortly.
AK
20:02
A K
interesting
20:02
but as long as it's their website, doh
20:02
hope they're at least consistent and apply that to all projects
Z
20:04
Zack
Hopefully they update their website soon
M
20:05
Minieep21
In reply to this message
there's no way they are able to be accurate with all the coins listed
AK
20:06
A K
define accurate..
20:06
i mean, whole notion of "market cap" at the liquidity levels of 99% of coins/tokens vs market cap of say Apple is misleading
20:07
so any subjective judgement CMC applies is almost irrelevant I'd say )
M
20:07
Minieep21
true, just in the aspect of correct data presentation
20:07
I wonder how many coins have more than 20% of supply missing
Z
20:10
Zack
We are all on team Amoveo, so the circulating market cap according to CMC rules should be zero.
20:12
heads up to anyone running a full node.
The location of database files has moved.
So when you restart, it will seem like your private key is gone.
the old location of keys is _build/prod/rel/amoveo_core/keys/keys.db the new location is db/keys/keys.db
Deleted invited Deleted Account
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HN invited HN
20 February 2019
Z
00:31
Zack
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/amoveo/
Our market cap is listed on CMC
AK
00:35
Alex K
💪💪💪
Z
00:36
Zack
they made the circulating supply almost as high as total supply. the only tokens they didn't count are the ones that were burned.
K invited K
SS
00:38
Spike Spiegel
Also funny thing: Grin with it's very high inflation rate seems constantly increasing it's cap while price is slowly going down
AK
00:38
A K
In reply to this message
super nice!
K
00:40
K
Did VEO start with a fair PoW launch?
Z
00:41
Zack
I accidentally did a 100 veo premine.
00:41
it was set to start with 100 to make testing easier, and I forgot to turn it off on launch day
00:42
it is less than 0.2% premine going by today's market cap.
K
00:42
K
Thanks. Do you also know what the inflation rate is?
Z
00:43
Zack
No one knows. it is controlled by the governance mechanism.
K
00:44
K
wow. This coin looks really similar to aeternity
AK
00:44
A K
😭
K
00:44
K
So Im guessing this is AE but with a fair launch
00:45
check this out
K
00:45
K
Thanks. Also fuck aeternity 👍
Z
00:45
Zack
It doesn't use any software from AE.
Amoveo is a better project with more ambitious goals.
K
00:46
K
Ah yeah I've read that
Z
00:46
Zack
AE is a re-write of an early version of Amoveo, they didn't reuse any of our code.
00:46
they broke a lot of things because they did not understand.
K
00:46
K
AE is just a money grab in that case?
Z
00:47
Zack
This is a place to discuss Amoveo
00:48
K
00:49
K
Thanks. Also, is there any reason for PoW instead of a PoW/PoS hybrid for the base chain?
00:50
Amoveo is a branch of the truthcoin project
Moritz Felipe invited Moritz Felipe
Z
00:51
Zack
We need POW to distribute coins.
As long as we are using POW, we get security for free, so we don't need POS.
K
00:53
K
In reply to this message
Yes but after a sufficient amount of coins have been distributed, adding a hybrid PoS like in decred will only add to the security of the blockchain right?
Z
00:55
Zack
Hard to say what blockchains will look like that far in the future.
Amoveo has a futarchy mechanism. So we are prepared to adapt if the environment changes.

Futarchy is the ideal way for communities of people to come to decisions.
T
01:01
Tromp
In reply to this message
Arent holders paying through inflation?
Z
01:02
Zack
In reply to this message
it costs money in hardware and electricity to mine VEO.
This spent money is converted into VEO value.
01:02
When a government prints fiat, it causes inflation. This is because it costs nothing to print paper money.

Amoveo uses POW. it is expensive to create VEO.
T
01:04
Tromp
Mmmm never thought about it that way, however I dont think it is free
Z
01:04
Zack
In reply to this message
@guideltoshi Paul Sztorc is a smart guy.
T
01:05
Tromp
I have seen some talks, ill try to dig in more to his work 👍🏻
AK
01:06
Alexey Kanakhin
quick search: http://mentalfloss.com/article/68650/how-much-does-it-cost-manufacture-us-paper-money

So how much money is it costing the government to produce all that dough? Well, $1 and $2 bills cost 4.9 cents per note to make, while $5 cost 10.9 cents, $10 cost 10.3 cents, both $20 and $50 bills cost 10.5 cents, and $100 bills cost 12.3 cents. In other words, the more it’s worth, the more it costs to produce.
SS
01:07
Spike Spiegel
Can we create some kind of resources page for veo?
I mean not exactly link about veo but rather related concepts: from PoW to futarchy linkbase
Z
01:09
Zack
http://www.truthcoin.info/ how about this page?
M
02:15
Mike
In reply to this message
I'm a big fan
V invited V
TG
04:01
Toby Ganger
Does anyone know how to get our market on hitbtc added to Blockfolio? That’s by far our biggest volume market
Z
04:41
Zack
Can you guys describe for me exactly what numbers you want to input to make a custom CFD type contract?
This could be used for making stablecoins, or for making leveraged bets on whatever numbers you are interested in.
You can customize the leverage and the margins.
What numbers would make most sense to type in to describe these values?
04:44
or, even assuming that you only wanted to make a stablecoin contract. What numbers would you type in to describe the contract?
Sexxie Vexxie invited Sexxie Vexxie
06:20
over $300 000
MF
06:23
Mr Flintstone
pretty brutal
06:23
I have heard of this stuff happening before and the mining pool giving them back their money
S
06:29
Sy
How on earth does this happen?!
06:30
Stupid gas limits and too much eth in the account?
MF
06:43
Mr Flintstone
they probably just switched the fee and amount fields
K
06:47
K
atleast it got confirmed fast
Z
06:48
Zack
I wonder if there should be a maximum tx fee size
06:49
And where would it be enforced?
K
06:52
K
In wallets, not the actual blockchain imo
06:52
some people want to send fees worth thousands on purpose.
06:52
in ICOs specifically
SS
08:49
Spike Spiegel
What about creating some futarchy markets for controversial topics to get PR?
M
12:31
Minieep21
send Afri a DM Zack, he could be interested in changing the world now that he's done with messy ETH
Deleted invited Deleted Account
A
14:07
Axel
Afri want a project without token?!
B
14:35
Ben
i think he is just pissed ;)
T
15:14
Tromp
You cant have radical decentralization without a coin, i guess he means utility tokens and shit
A
15:37
Axel
There are a lot of other topics w/ tokens
Z
15:38
Zack
I don't know anything about afri. His Twitter page makes him look like he likes being a victim or being involved with drama.
15:38
He also specificly says he doesn't want to be involved with token projects.
M
16:10
Mike
In reply to this message
I like the sound of this. Example?
Z
19:57
Zack
With @Jbreezy0 's advice, I updated the over the counter derivatives program to use a different simpler interface for people who want to make stablecoin contracts.
We will be able to release this for main net soon.
20:01
To make the contract, you have to provide 6 pieces of information:
their_address:
oracle:
our bet amount:
current value:
upper limit of range being measured by the oracle:
leverage:
saltinbas invited saltinbas
Z
21:18
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8070/otc_derivatives.html?mode=testnet
I put the new stablecoin interface onto the testnet. so you can try making p2p derivatives using this new interface.
21:37
Deleted Account
Looks pretty cool. Some more info for regular users is probably required though
m
21:37
mm
Zack itd be nice to document example bets with screenshots to explain how it really works
21:37
Deleted Account
Hehe
SP
21:39
Stepan Panov
What was VEO's all time high?
MF
21:41
Mr Flintstone
there are still things I think we can put in the backend
21:41
so the users don’t need to input so much info
S
23:13
Sy
In reply to this message
900$
SP
23:26
Stepan Panov
In reply to this message
thanks man!
AK
23:27
A K
diff going down significantly
23:27
fpga honeymoon over?
S
23:35
Sy
Pools are both unlucky too
21 February 2019
Я
00:38
Ярослав
In reply to this message
На бирже qtrade посмотри историю.
B
00:45
Ben
i think a lot of FPGA shifted to a diffrent ALGO
00:45
(veriblock)
e
01:32
enti
In reply to this message
diff still kinda high though
02:41
Deleted Account
VEO is already more of a stablecoin than BTC?
V
03:02
Victor
1 VEO is always 1 VEO
03:02
DOGE much respek
03:03
Man, I would pay for a film about crypto, directed by Sascha Baron Cohen
S
03:12
Sy
😂
Z
03:26
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8070/otc_derivatives.html?mode=testnet
Mr Flintstone and I fixed some bugs in this today, it is getting better rapidly.
M
03:32
Michael Collins
I have no clue about this project but I'm buying some today 😂
03:32
Sounds good
T
04:03
Tromp
In reply to this message
Worldchanging experimental stuff
M
04:34
Michael Collins
In reply to this message
Not to exciting so 😂
MF
05:18
Mr Flintstone
ctrl F “sztorc” and nothing lol
05:19
The Godfather of blockchain oracles and finance himself omitted
SS
05:22
Spike Spiegel
It's PR piece for Ramp 😂
05:23
But I've realised that Amoveo believers live in some kind of void - there should be much more buzz and PR so people may understand values & rationale behind the project
MF
05:23
Mr Flintstone
it is concerning to me that so much work is going into convincing LPs that fragile oracles aren’t fragile
Z
05:23
Zack
what is an LP?
MF
05:24
Mr Flintstone
like an investor in a private fund
05:25
I can understand not talking about amoveo in this kind of writing. I cannot understand not talking about sztorc
T
05:36
Tromp
In reply to this message
How can one easily convince another person that an oracle is not cryptoeconomically secure. That explanation i dont think could be understood by many people
Z
05:37
Zack
different oracles are broken for different reasons.
voting type oracles break because tragedy of the commons make it cheap to bribe them to lie.
T
05:39
Tromp
Doesnt tragedy of the commons apply to amoveo as well on other areas like PR or marketing? Like who is going to do it. People who own a lot of veo might help in some ways, how can we solve that
SS
05:41
Spike Spiegel
There is common theme in hacker's communities "let's somebody do something about something but not me" so unless you DIY there would be nobody to do it
Z
05:41
Zack
If the battlefield is marketing, then Amoveo would lose.

Instead we are trying to build an actually useful product. If it is actually useful, then the number of users will grow exponentially.
05:41
If you don't have a useful product, marketing can still bring users, but each user doesn't stick around long, so it burns itself out when you run out of money.
SS
05:43
Spike Spiegel
Sidechains are in theory better then ETH with subcurrencies - but proper solutions won't make Consensys devs rich if they cannot create erc20 token
05:43
Most important (with almost 2% eth locked) part of ETH application is Maker which depend on centralised oracles and good marketing by a16z
Z
05:43
Zack
amoveo doesn't have sidechains or subcurrencies.
05:44
we use sharding and lightning for scalability, and we use synthetic assets instead of subcurrencies.
SS
05:45
Spike Spiegel
I still prefer to hold erc20 DAI then to create new contract each month and pay tx fees
05:45
That's part of the user experience
05:46
or provide capital to Uniswap for tasty yields
Z
05:46
Zack
people's preferences are basically random.
But some of us will happen to prefer doing things that are more profitable, and the people who behave more profitably will eventually take over the market.
Z
05:47
Zack
It is more important to build the right product than it is to follow people's preferences.
05:48
anyway, user experience isn't really connected to how the markets work.
You can build whatever UX you want on top of any market.
Zao Yang invited Zao Yang
SS
06:06
Spike Spiegel
Hello @zaoyang - you written about MKR stablecoin design. Amoveo has different way to create stablecoin - without such black swan risk
ZY
06:07
Zao Yang
In reply to this message
Do you have a link?
SS
06:09
Spike Spiegel
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/44c2b0f6b4932097fce691b174b942515b4db9bc/docs/basics/stablecoin.md

Documentation is WIP now - but Zack is able to convey the concept better then me probably
06:10
Every stablecoin has either explicit or implicit margin or there is custodian. Veo allows for on-chain shorting of veo so by both having veo and shorting it you create synthetic stablecoin
Z
06:12
Zack
In reply to this message
It is not on-chain, it is in channels. There is never a custodian, it is trustless.
SS
06:13
Spike Spiegel
😘 thx - which design doc is best explanation of how it works?
Z
06:14
Zack
In reply to this message
We make synthetic assets using portfolios of financial derivatives.
Everything is settled in Veo.
So different customers can set different margins depending on how much they are willing to pay, and how much volatility they want to be shielded from.
SS
06:16
Spike Spiegel
So Maker is monoculture where every fungible DAI is $1 until whole system break while in Veo antifragility is used - some risky stablecoins with low margins may break but base system will be always intact
Z
06:18
Zack
Basically, if you bet on the price of Veo measured in usd, you can bet in such a way that the asset you end up holding stays the same value as usd, as long as the price of Veo measured in usd stays inside the margins specified in the contract.
06:18
One-size-fits-all is bad. Different users of stablecoin contracts have different needs.
It is more affordable and usable for more people if the margins of each users contract can be customized.
06:19
It is also more scalable to keep all these contracts off-chain. That way they can be modified instantly, without putting anything on-chain.
ZY
06:26
Zao Yang
In reply to this message
it’s just a peg enforced by an oracle?
MF
06:28
Mr Flintstone
the peg is enforced by the collateral put up by the other side of the bet
06:29
you take the other side’s collateral (who went long) until it’s all gone. at which point you lose usd stability and it turns into veousd price risk again
06:29
it is a similar concept to FX hedging
06:33
amoveo is not trying to reinvent the wheel when it comes to financial instruments. CFD have been used for a long time
Z
06:34
Zack
it is using state channels.
Both parties put money in the channel, then they can transfer it back and forth or make contracts together without writing anything on-chain.
The state channels have a turing complete programming language, the programs written in this language have access to all the data provided by oracles.
06:34
CFD is one program we have written for state channels.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
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Anna Never pm you firstly invited Anna Never pm you firstly
Deleted invited Deleted Account
15:32
Deleted Account
Hi, which exchanges support veo trading now?
I
15:34
Instinct
In reply to this message
Z
16:11
Zack
In reply to this message
https://www.coindesk.com/sparkpool-to-freeze-mysterious-2100-ether-mining-payout-for-now?amp

Looks like this story of the $300k tx fee will have a heart warming conclusion.

I hope that Amoveo mining pools could behave this way if someone accidentally made a massive tx fee.
S
17:41
Sy
that was only one of 4 or 5 tho
17:42
“I don’t believe it to be an attempt at money laundering, because the same ‘error’ happened five times within a couple hours, and different mining pools were the lucky recipients of the transaction fees.”

As shown on Amberdata’s blockchain explorer, four other transactions – outside of the one paying out 2,100 ETH – rewarded miners a combined total of roughly 1,890 ETH.
Z
17:42
Zack
Someone did this 4 times in a row??? Hahaha
17:42
I don't feel bad for them any more
S
17:42
Sy
i dont know why anyone would let an acc with 4k eth be controlled by a program but hey, their money
17:42
What’s more, Espanol highlights that all five transactions including the one paid out to Sparkpool all “originated from the same wallet, which saw their overall balance go from 4,000 to about 400 ETH, for what seems to be a programming error.”
17:43
or more accurate, not their money anymore...
Z
17:44
Zack
Maybe someone was about to get divorced, so they wanted to "accidentally" lose all their money in a provable way.
AK
17:44
A K
In reply to this message
how could exchanges operate otherwise?
S
17:46
Sy
im pretty sure they have savety machanism in place if sums are big enough and approve by hand
LEONID invited LEONID
AK
20:31
A K
gents, what's the current proposed mechanism for the gov oracle to work? my understanding: 1) market with a q like "if mining reward goes down, VEO/USD goes above 100" is created. 2) gov oracle is created - does it reference the market somehow? 2.1) how and when does it determine whether it should lower the reward? 3) what if the reward goes down, but the price doesn't go above 100 - do we revert the govt var change?
Z
21:21
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/using_governance.md
I think this answers all your questions.

3) what actually happens doesn't matter, only the predictions matter.
AK
22:17
A K
tnx!
22:17
so ppl can bet that the outcomes are correlated, but we don't care if they're actually correlated?
22:18
also it doesn't answer how the oracle is linked to the question
Z
22:18
Zack
In reply to this message
People can bet on outcomes or their correlations.
I care about the correlation of some things, and not others.
Maybe I don't understand the question.
AK
22:18
A K
what if i create 2 questions, same Q and diff P, like P1= veo cap > 10M and P2 = Trump is impeached in 2020
22:18
which one should the oracle reference?
Z
22:19
Zack
In reply to this message
You ask a question when you make a new oracle. Reporters look at the question when reporting the outcome.
22:20
In reply to this message
Each question is a different oracle. Maybe I don't understand what you are asking.
AK
22:21
A K
right now I can create a gov oracle without any linked question oracle
22:21
1) will it be changed?
22:21
2) is there a way to specify a link between gov oracle and question oracle, or will there be?
Z
22:22
Zack
In reply to this message
If you make a gov oracle without a futarchy market connected to it, it is my expectation the community will always report bad question.

The futarchy market is off-chain in the channel network.
The Oracle is an on-chain mechanism.
22:22
In reply to this message
Not clear what you mean by "question oracle".
AK
22:22
A K
In reply to this message
it's from the link you shared..
22:23
"For example, if you want to make governance oracle to change the block reward size, you first need to make a question oracle of something like ..."
Z
22:25
Zack
In reply to this message
oh, you are talking about one of the 4 oracles used to power the futarchy market
22:25
even if you make all 4 of those oracles, that still isn't enough. you need a futarchy market in the channel network to determine if the update is good or not.
AK
22:26
A K
yep, i'm asking about is there a link between gov oracle and these 4 "question oracles"
Z
22:26
Zack
in the future we will update the market chalang smart contract to reference multiple on-chain oracles, and then we wont need to use 4 binary markets to simulate a single market with 4 outcomes. we can just make a single market with 4 outcomes.
AK
22:33
A K
but for now, one could create a set of 4 oracles with Q="veo block reward goes down 33%" and P="VEO mcap reaches 10M in 2019"
22:33
and another set of 4 oracles with Q=same and P="Trump is impeached in 2019"
22:33
and markets
22:34
and from market prices, 1st is positively correlated and 2nd negatively
22:34
how should the gov oracle be resolved?
Z
22:35
Zack
if the 2nd is negatively correlated, then I guess in that imaginary world lowering the block reward will help prevent Trump from getting impeached
AK
22:35
A K
yep
22:35
or can be positively correlated, doesn't matter
22:36
how is the gov oracle supposed to behave?
Z
22:36
Zack
If the Amoveo community all wanted Trump to get impeached, they would probably keep the block reward high.
MF
22:36
Mr Flintstone
the on chain governance oracle can’t read the results of the off chain futarchy market
AK
22:36
A K
but the oracles will be on chain?
Z
22:36
Zack
No consensus mechanism is perfect, it can only guide us towards agreement, it can not force us to agree.
AK
22:36
A K
with results
MF
22:36
Mr Flintstone
but people will update (fork) their software because it is profitable to do if the oracle outcome isn’t in line with the futarxhy result
AK
22:37
A K
In reply to this message
i'm not attacking anything here, just trying to understand
Z
22:37
Zack
Futarchy is a great way of helping people know what the consequences of their actions are. Once we all know the consequences, that is often enough for us to agree on what actions to take.
22:37
Sometimes we wont be able to agree on whether raising or lowering the block reward is better
AK
22:37
A K
ok, and the agreement happens in the gov oracle voting?
MF
22:37
Mr Flintstone
it can happen in a fork if necessary
AK
22:37
A K
so it won't necessarily have a nash equilibrium of 1 bet ?
MF
22:37
Mr Flintstone
the futarchy market clearly tells us what to change in the software
AK
22:38
A K
might be some fierce betting in it?
MF
22:38
Mr Flintstone
it should be 1 bet
22:38
any other bets are free money for us to take
AK
22:38
A K
but if some ppl want trump impeached
22:38
and some want veo mcap 10M
Z
22:38
Zack
If there are 2 sub-communities that have different interests, sometimes a fork is better for everyone.
That way they can specialize in different directions.
AK
22:38
A K
which bet should it be ??
Z
22:38
Zack
if a fork occurs, then the governance mechanism becomes a market for moving your money to the side of the fork you believe in.
AK
22:39
A K
well fork consensus is so costly and potentially lethal, I think we're falling back to it too fast in this discussion
22:40
any blockchain has fork consensus (well maybe not ripple lol)
22:40
it's not unique to amoveo
22:40
i'm interested to see how amoveo is better
Z
22:41
Zack
if a fork isn't in everyone's best interest, then they can make more futarchy markets to find out what is in their best interest.
Maybe it only increases the odds of Trump impeachment by 1%, and so it isn't worth having a lower market cap for most people.
Or maybe the market cap is already high enough, so most of us can agree to focus on the trump impeachment thing.
22:41
If we make some futarchy market, you can hedge your risks to the point where you don't care on the outcome of the decision.
AK
22:41
A K
is there a way to force gov oracle to wait for the resolution of this new markets?
Z
22:42
Zack
Lets imagine that you expect to be 10% richer if we make decision A.
Then you could use 5% of your money to bet that we will not make decision A, and your risk will be completely hedged. now you don't care what we decide.
22:43
In reply to this message
if we don't have enough information to report to the gov oracle, then we just make it a "bad question", and then restart once we have more information.
It takes a lot longer to close the oracle as a "bad quesion", so there is lots of time to get more info in that case.
22:44
So imagine Amoveo is split into 2 groups. Half of us would profit from making decision A, and the other half would profit from making decision B.
So we can all make bets with each other and hedge our risks.
Eventually one half of us is completely hedged, they no longer care about the outcome, but the other half still has some people who are unhedged. They had a bigger financial interest in the outcome. Now they are the only people left who care about the decision.
AK
22:47
A K
nice
22:47
buut it implies so much rationality in the users
Z
22:49
Zack
If people lose money by participating non-optimally, it doesn't harm the accuracy of the oracle or governance mechanism.

If you make a bet to try and influence the outcome, that is just a big prize for someone to come and put the price where it belongs.
AK
22:53
A K
and why don't we care about the actual resolution of the question "if reward is lowered, will VEO mcap reach 10M" ?
22:53
it allows for a big holder to influence the decision even if he turns out to be wrong?
Z
22:54
Zack
imagine we are betting on a dice roll.
The correct outcome we want to measure is that there is a 1 in 6 chance of rolling a 3.

If, after the fact, we know that a 3 was actually rolled, saying there was a 100% chance of a 3 is not an accurate measurement.
22:54
We want big holders to push the price towards 1 in 6.
AK
22:58
A K
but we don't know it's a fair d6 beforehand
22:58
(and if we do, why bother with the market)
Z
23:00
Zack
You propose a futarchy mechanism where the actual outcome of the market should influence our decision.
So I give an counter-example to show that your proposed design cannot function as a futarchy mechanism.
It would fail to measure the probability of rolling a 3 on a fair dice.
AK
23:03
A K
so the better doesn't have to be right, he just have to guess what the majority would bet?
Z
23:04
Zack
To make a profit in the long run, you need to buy under-valued assets, and sell over-valued assets.
23:05
If the market thinks there there is only a 10% probability of something happening, but in reality there is a 20% probability it will happen, then that is a profit opportunity for anyone who can tell that the real probability is higher than 10%.
AK
23:06
A K
yeah, in general it's clear
23:06
however consider the Trump example
23:06
most sane ppl will bet that there' 0 correlation between Trump and VEO
23:06
however, a big holder can bet for it and win
23:06
is it the intended way of operation?
Z
23:06
Zack
Futarchy is an application of prediction markets.
Prediction markets can provide us with the probabilities that events will happen in the future, and we can look at these probabilities to help influence our decision making.

If you break the prediction market, then you wont be measuring accurate probabilities, so you wont be able to use it for futarchy.
AK
23:07
A K
but the better will win a lot of veo...
Z
23:08
Zack
If someone makes a bad bet in a prediction market, on average, in the long run, that is the same as giving away money.
23:08
Occasionally their bet might win out of randomness, but on average they will lose more than they win.
AK
23:08
A K
again, in principle yes
23:08
but if there's no settlement vis-a-vis reality
23:08
I don't get how it applies
23:09
cos you were saying we don't care if there's an actual observable correlation
Z
23:10
Zack
http://mason.gmu.edu/~rhanson/biashelp.pdf
People who attempt to manipulate prediction markets actually make them more accurate, because they create a prize for more people to bet in the market.
23:10
Prediction markets are old technology, Amoveo didn't invent them.
AK
23:10
A K
it's hard to accumulate 50% of wrolds wealth
23:11
all the PMs i've encountered, like sports betting, settle after an event occurs
23:11
that ensures that smart better get rewarded
23:11
this is absolutely clear to me
23:11
if we don't settle after the event, how are the smart betters rewarded?
Z
23:12
Zack
yeah, all PMs bets settle after the even occurs. Otherwise it is impossible to know who won.
This includes all PMs in Amoveo, including the PMs that are used for futarchy.
AK
23:12
A K
great
Z
23:12
Zack
Literally impossible to do it any other way
AK
23:12
A K
so in the market with the question of correlation between veo mcap and block reward
23:12
is this also that way?
Z
23:13
Zack
if you bet on an outcome, and that outcome happens, then you win your bet.
23:13
if the outcome does not happen, then you lose your bet.
23:13
this is very basic.
AK
23:14
A K
In reply to this message
see your reply to 3
23:14
I read it as "what happens doesn't matter" = "we don't settle bets after an outcome of a question "is veo mcap and block reward correlated""
Z
23:15
Zack
Right.
If the market says there is a 16.6% chance that the dice will roll a 3, and then after the fact we actually do roll a 3, that doesn't mean 16.6% was wrong. it was exactly correct.
23:16
A market is for measuring a price.
The price being measured by this market is 16.6%, not 100%.
23:16
It doesn't matter if we actually roll a 3 or not. the correct price was still 16.6%.
AK
23:16
A K
but still, is there any settlement here? cos 16.6% is not observable indeed
Z
23:17
Zack
obviously there can be no settlement if the bet has not been resolved.
23:17
It is like if we were betting on the dice roll, I bet 16.6% and then you decided to pay out the winnings before we even rolled the dice.
23:18
we get the correct price measurement of 16.6% before we know the outcome of the dice roll.
Once we know the outcome of the dice roll, then the market wont say the price we wanted to measure any more. it will quickly change to saying 100% for 3, and 0% for the other 5 possibilities.
23:19
I am starting to suspect that AK is a troll. He is pretending to not understand obvious things to spam this group with nonsense repeating data.
23:20
It has been over an hour, and he is still not understanding something simple.
AK
23:20
A K
In reply to this message
i've been waiting for it )
23:20
with Ben I'm in a good company, no worries
23:22
In reply to this message
so i'll ask again, for the block reward question - do we settle after we observe answers to both P and Q ?
23:22
i understand we can use the market before we settle, to answer the gov oracle - that is clear
Z
23:25
Zack
We can update a governance variable as soon as the community has come to consensus that we should update it.
Maybe this doesn't happen until there are one or more futarchy markets measuring other information that could influence our decision.
Or maybe we can all agree without needing any futarchy markets.
23:26
Futarchy markets are off-chain in the channels.
The Amoveo blockchain has no idea what is happening in the channels, because they are "off-chain".
"off chain" means it is not recorded on the blockchain, and full nodes do not store that information.
23:27
So it is completely impossible for anything that is on-chain to be limited by whether or not something off-chain has resolved.
AK
23:27
A K
ja ja ja, that part is clear, thanks for repeating though.
23:27
ok, still we use it to evaluate community consensus - OK
23:28
but in this off chain futarchy market, do we settle the question re veo mcap correlation and block reward after we observe the outcome?
23:28
yes or no
Z
23:28
Zack
before or after doesen't matter.
23:28
wait.
23:28
what are you asking?
AK
23:29
A K
"For example, if you want to make governance oracle to change the block reward size, you first need to make a question oracle of something like Q="we increase the block reward by 20%";P="the market cap of VEO exceeds $5 million";(P and Q) You also need an oracle with (P and !Q), and oracle with (!P and Q) and an oracle with (!P and !Q). Each of the 4 oracles needs a binary market. We can look at the prices in the 4 markets to determine which decision is best."
23:29
in this markets, ppl make bets
Z
23:29
Zack
There is one oracle asking about the block reward. the outcome of that oracle depends on what the block reward is at that time.
Anyone who bets on this oracle, they win money if they bet on the outcome that actually happened.
23:30
in each of those 4 markets, you win money only if you bet on the outcome that comes true.
23:30
obviously it is impossible for winnings to be paid out before we know who won.
AK
23:30
A K
In reply to this message
ok great
Z
23:30
Zack
Can anyone confirm if AK is a troll or not?
AK
23:30
A K
somehow from your previous answers I got the impression it's not the case
23:30
I can confirm, I'm a troll
Z
23:30
Zack
It has been 75 minutes. I cant do this all day.
AK
23:30
Alex K
In reply to this message
definetely not
Z
23:31
Zack
another AK says the first AK is not a troll...
AK
23:31
A K
In reply to this message
thanks thanks
23:31
that's btw why I would prefer reddit
Z
23:31
Zack
then use reddit.
AK
23:31
A K
so that this knowledge, irregardless of how obvious it seems to you, would be public
Z
23:32
Zack
I check every day. I would answer anyone's questions on the reddit page
AK
23:32
A K
In reply to this message
would you answer there? i'll do next time
23:32
cool
Z
23:33
Zack
You asked me multiple times "If I made a bet, will I get paid out before we know if I won the bet?"

That is a nonsense question.
AK
23:33
A K
ain't no such a thing as a nonsense question
23:33
the answer is no
23:33
could've saved us some time )
Z
23:33
Zack
I answered no every time. I think it was 4 times
23:34
I am pretty sure he is a troll
AK
23:34
A K
let's run a market shall we
23:34
cmon
23:34
i said thank you
Z
23:35
Zack
I guess I should delete all this spam?
Or maybe someone else wants to look at it and tell me if AK is a troll?
23:41
How am I even supposed to guard against this kind of troll?
If I am wasting an hour of my time, based on how much you guys are paying the dev reward, this is a significant financial loss.

Maybe I should only answer questions by linking to the docs, and I should refuse to answer questions that can't be answered this way.
AK
23:41
A K
do what's best for veo
22 February 2019
T
00:22
Tromp
He is not a troll it is just hard to understand how all this works. If you dont want to focus on answering long questions it could be better to use the links I think
Z
00:22
Zack
In reply to this message
thanks Tromp
00:22
Maybe it is related to Russian-English issues too
T
00:24
Tromp
Amoveo is hard to understand haha, maybe some day it will be easy to use for everyone but right now it is very unfriendly for users. That is why maybe I see you sometimes think some people are trolls but I havent seen anyone with bad intentions except maybe the spammers for publicity
00:27
If you need help with PR im happy to help, need some more time to dig in a little deeper into how amoveo works Zack
Z
01:34
Zack
There is a lot of research that says iodine deficiency is one of the worst and most treatable medical ailments harming us today.
Maybe we can make a prediction market to re-confirm how easy it is to help people by teaching them about iodine.
That would be a heart warming use of Amoveo.
01:39
I guess the benefits of iodine take too long to show and be measured for the oracle.
01:58
Deleted Account
I think Magnesium would be a better fit there
Z
01:59
Zack
we should ask amoveo futarchy whether it is better to teach people about magnesium or iodine
02:01
Deleted Account
Hah, can't disagree there
Mike Ziliboba invited Mike Ziliboba
MF
03:11
Mr Flintstone
50 more blocks and block reward oracle is closeable
03:12
seems like new reward will be like 0.4 + 0.08 ~= 0.5
S
03:14
Sy
around 0.44
MF
03:25
Mr Flintstone
including dev reward?
03:26
I think what was paid to miners decreased by 36% last time instead of 33%
S
03:42
Sy
hmm
03:42
not sure, we were at 1.002 or something and went down to 0.64
03:42
so you might be right :)
03:42
and no, dev reward is always on top
SS
04:00
Spike Spiegel
so currently dev reward is more then 20%?
04:00
// will be
S
04:03
Sy
why should it?
MF
04:03
Mr Flintstone
it scales by block reward I believe
S
04:03
Sy
dev reward is unchanged, 16% of the block reward
04:03
16.7 or something
MF
04:04
Mr Flintstone
I think it’s 20% of the reward so dev / dev + miner is 17%
04:04
idk, some people use “reward” to mean everything, and some just use it to mean what is paid to miners
S
04:05
Sy
huh?
04:06
you take the block value which is 0.64 right now and multiply it by 0.167, thats the dev share
MF
04:06
Mr Flintstone
rly
04:06
I always thought we multiplied by 0.2, but could be wrong
04:06
that’s why zacks reward account is like 17% of all veo
04:07
and not 16.7/116.7
SS
04:08
Spike Spiegel
x + y = 1
x = 0.2 (x+y)
Z
07:31
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8070/new_oracle.html?mode=testnet

I added this tool to the light node. Now you can make new oracles from the light node.
Useful if you want to make a bet with someone, and the oracle you want to bet on does not yet exist.
07:32
This links to the testnet so you can try it out.
MF
07:39
Mr Flintstone
nice
07:40
we seem to have lots of different .html pages
07:40
maybe a directory .html makes sense, with links to the other pages
Z
07:40
Zack
right.
and we can mix and match tools from the different pages to make something more coherent.
DV
14:35
Denis Voskvitsov
block reward finally decreased to 0.4 VEO.
14:37
starting from the block 54741
MF
14:52
Mr Flintstone
wonder how much net hash is gonna drop
14:55
Deleted Account
Hi guys. In literature. terms Prediction markets (PMs) and Descision markets (DMs) are often used as synonyms.

There is a kind of consensus what are PMs: markets where participants bet on future events trying to predict them.
14:56
The winner is the person who made real prediction
Z
14:56
Zack
Yes, that is correct Victor
14:57
A dm is a special kind of pm where we look at the price of the pm to make a decision.
14:58
So "decision market" is when a prediction market is used for futarchy.
14:59
Deleted Account
I thought that DMs are markets where people bet on future actions depending on their own will. They do not make predictions, they only compare their bets and chose the action that have maximal bets
15:00
so it is something like auction
15:01
but not for buying goods but for making particular actions
Z
15:02
Zack
For example, if you don't know whether to take road A or B, you could make a decision market measuring how long it will take you to arrive vs which road you take.
By looking at the prices of the different outcomes, you can realize that one road will arrive at your destination more quickly.

Since you are using the prices to make a decision, this is called a decision market.
15:02
Deleted Account
ok, let us discuss more simple case
15:03
you and me want to be a president of some corporation
15:04
My supporters collect $1 mln, yours - $0.5 mln
Z
15:04
Zack
If instead you make a prediction market asking what the price of wheat will be next year, that is just considered a PM. Since you aren't making any decisions based on the price of wheat. You are merely trying to forecast what the price will be.
15:05
Deleted Account
How to call a market where there are no predictions, just clash of interests? Who bet more - wins
Z
15:06
Zack
In reply to this message
Sounds like your supports will be able to afford more advertisement.
It isn't clear to me how this relates to amoveo.
15:06
In reply to this message
I don't understand what you could be talking about.
15:07
How could betting more make you win?
If you bet on the winning outcome, even with only a small amount of money, you profit.

But making a bet doesn't change the result.
15:09
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
I describe current work of goverment oracle. Some user suggest a reform. Other users make payments pro or contra.
15:10
the reform will be made if pros get more money
Z
15:10
Zack
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://hanson.gmu.edu/biashelp.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjgkJyo5M7gAhXETd8KHXOVAq4QFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1p0g2TctplofeYI6nQj5Zj
As Robin Hanson shows, if you try to make bets to manipulate the outcome of a PM, it actually just makes the PM more accurate.
So making bigger bets cannot force the outcome of a market.
15:11
In reply to this message
No market works that way.
15:12
If we were both running for president, a futarchy market might measure something like this:
Correlation between who gets elected, and our profit margin for the next 6 months.

Just because you can make more bets than me doesn't mean you will be able to earn more profit by running the company for 6 months than I could.
15:13
The futarchy market will accurately report on which one of us can earn more profit in the next 6 months.
15:14
Even if you are willing to waste $1 million making inaccurate bets. You would just lose all your money
15:16
Deleted Account
It depends on market rules. In principle, it is possible to organize a system where the winner is the person who get maximal financial support (not votes). But without any predictions
Z
15:16
Zack
A lot of people seemed to be confused. They think "futarchy" means voting with your money.

This is not the case at all. Futarhy is not related to voting.
15:16
Deleted Account
Just a kind of auction
Z
15:16
Zack
In reply to this message
That is not futarchy. It is a voting mechanism.
15:17
Voting is not a secure way of making decisions.
15:17
It is vulnerable to bribery because of tragedy of the Commons.
15:17
Deleted Account
So you'll call this monetary voting
Z
15:17
Zack
I call it a broken mechanism not worth building or thinking about.
15:18
It's even worse than normal voting, because the losers lose all their money
15:20
Deleted Account
But your Goverment oracle works this way. AFAIK.
Z
15:21
Zack
The governance oracle is a reporting mechanism. Once the community has already made a decision, you can report it to the governance oracle.

That tool cannot be used for making decisions. It can only be used for reporting on decisions that were already made.
15:23
We use futarchy markets off-chain in the channels for making decisions, then we use on-chain governance oracles to report the result of our decisions to the blockchain.
15:30
Miners can censor on-chain trading in the Oracle, but they cannot censor off-chain trading in the futarchy market.
So Nakamoto consensus can force the outcome of a governance oracle, to protect the network. But the outcome of a futarchy market is out of the control of the miners.

These mechanisms are very different from each other, both being optimized for completely different purposes.

The only thing they share in common is that you participate in eah by betting.
15:31
Deleted Account
Please, tell me more about futarchy market during making a descision. For example "Should we rename amoveo to veo"
15:32
how it works
Z
15:35
Zack
In reply to this message
Depending on the values of the community, this could be made in different ways.

A simple way would be measuring the correlation between the price and the name.
So there would be 4 possible outcomes you could bet on:
High price called Veo
High price called amoveo
Low price called Veo
Low price called amoveo

The prices of the 4 outcomes are ha hv la lv.
If (ha*lv)>(hv*la), then the name "amoveo" is better for the price of veo. Otherwise "veo" is better for the price of Veo.

Assuming we all want to make the decision that results in a higher price of veo, this is a futarchy market for the community to decide on our name.
15:39
Deleted Account
Ok this sounds more complex than I thought
AK
15:40
A K
@victor_vl check yesterday discussion on same topic, here in tg
15:40
Zack since we’re back at the topic, can you provide example resolution dates for gov oracle + question oracles + futarchy markets?
15:40
how they would be usually, practically aligned?
15:41
e.g. i want gov oracle to resolve by 1 Mar 19, but the futarchy asks whether the gov var change would effect veo price in 2020
15:41
so the futarchy market resolution is 1 Jan 2020 or so
15:41
would that work?
Z
15:41
Zack
In reply to this message
You can't update a gov variable until we have consensus that it should be updated.

Futarchy markets are a potential tool to achieve consensus about what should be updated.
15:42
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
But what if someone want to make veo cheaper?
AK
15:42
A K
In reply to this message
yep yep, i’m asking a more simple question. futarchy market with a question “gov var goes X, veo price on 1 Jan 2020” is technically possible, right?
15:43
practically though, what date should we reference?
15:43
have you considered?
Z
15:43
Zack
In reply to this message
Futarchy just measures correlation.
If there is only a small probability that the gov variable will change by the date in question, that doesn't change the correlation.
15:44
In reply to this message
In order to make a futarchy market, we need almost everyone in the community to share some goal.
That way we can measure the correlation of our shared goal with the decision we are making.
15:45
In reply to this message
You can make futarchy markets measuring the correlation between updates to the gov variables and the price of Veo yes.
15:47
In reply to this message
If it is not possible to update a gov variable that soon, then the futarchy market will not work. The correlation would be comparing 0 vs 0.

If the date is too far in the future, then no one will want to participate because they don't want to leave their Veo locked up for months or years.

So there are your bounds for reasonable dates.
15:49
Deleted Account
Zack, [22.02.19 17:44]
[In reply to victor 123]
In order to make a futarchy market, we need almost everyone in the community to share some goal.
That way we can measure the correlation of our shared goal with the decision we are making.

But in real life the goals can be different. Why do you believe that financial voting in such case is worse that common voting? Financial interest enforce people to vote only for those descisions they really need
Z
15:50
Zack
Voting is not cryptoeconomically secure. We can't use any voting protocols in a blockchain.
15:51
In reply to this message
I think that the amoveo community has enough commonly shared values that we will be able to use futarchy.

We all want the price of Veo to increase, and the market cap to increase.
15:51
Deleted Account
But are there any method to built the community where everyone has the SAME goal?
Z
15:53
Zack
In reply to this message
Not everyone has to share the same goal.
If one person owned some Veo, and they hated amoveo and wanted it destroyed, that person would be dissatisfied with all the futarchy decisions.

But they are such a small minority, it just doesn't matter.
15:54
The vast majority of us share the goal of having Veo increase in price. So we can make futarchy markets about that
15:54
Or possibly it is better to focus on maximizing the market cap instead of price.
bitcoinsfacil - pedro invited bitcoinsfacil - pedro
SS
16:50
Also great visuals IHMO - predictions converging to some value with sparklines
[
17:50
[Riki]
In reply to this message
This is cool
M
17:52
Minieep21
Easy to understand, easy to use. Main requirement for VEO growth atm
SS
17:53
Spike Spiegel
They already have community interested in predictions - they use points worth zero AFAIK so people are fighting there for bragging rights only.
Z
18:07
Zack
it is a pretty easy interface.
one slider, and one button.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
. invited .
Z
21:16
Zack
right now wallet.html is doing a lot.
I was thinking we could break it up into 5 pages.
* spending, signing txs, publishing txs, and looking up your balance.
* for making and operating a channel with a server.
* encrypted messaging.
* looking up governance and oracles. we can add the ability to look up more stuff to that page.
* a home page linking to all the different pages available in the light node, and they all link back to the home.
21:26
Zack, if you want to go, I can get a free booth for Amoveo.
Z
21:27
Zack
I don't want to go.
EP
21:27
Evans Pan
You dont need pay.........
Z
21:28
Zack
time is worth more than money to me
21:28
I am too busy building Amoveo, I don't see how going to a show would help the project at this time.
EP
21:29
Evans Pan
Anyone else who want to represent Amoveo can go
Deleted invited Deleted Account
SS
21:30
Spike Spiegel
Creditability is contrary indicator in crypto
21:31
Bitcoin Foundation was utter scam
Z
21:34
Zack
If you like talking about Amoveo, and going to an event like this is fun for you, it sounds fine to me if other people go and put up an amoveo banner or something.
Just as long as they don't pretend to represent me.
21:39
You could officially represent Amoveo, if a futarchy market said that the community wanted you to be our representative.
SS
21:39
Spike Spiegel
It would be fun to go to banker's & regulators conference with anarchistic leaflets & "True / False / Bad question meme hoodies"

But actually I think just a workshop / meetup would work better for Veo fans.

Aragon is project with pointless token yet they were able to do Ara-Con ( dev conference ) and get people to create their project extensions / get people to use APIs etc
Z
21:40
Zack
Anything we do besides making a better product is probably a waste of time.
Getting random people to make extension or use APIs wouldn't help us achieve product market fit, as far as I can see.
SS
21:42
Spike Spiegel
Futarchy probably works at scale - http://paulgraham.com/ds.html
21:42
"The most common unscalable thing founders have to do at the start is to recruit users manually. Nearly all startups have to. You can't wait for users to come to you. You have to go out and get them."
21:43
Anything we do besides making a better product is probably a waste of time. -- build it and they will come is not true as one can see projects like Tron or Chainlink 😂 getting serious money while they don't have great product
Z
21:44
Zack
I agree with Paul Graham. getting users is what we need to do.
I don't see how attending conferences will help in that regard.
Instead, I think we need to make an actually useful product, and find someone who can benefit from using it.
21:44
I doubt we would find someone who could benefit from using Amoveo in Malta.
SS
21:45
Spike Spiegel
Yeah, those conferences are bullshit factories

Stages to doing good work

1. Laugh at bullshit
2. Get mad at bullshit
3. Try to get even by joining the bullshit factory yourself
4. Realize in the long term it’s actually harder
5. Start to do good work because it’s actually the laziest way out of the maze
Z
21:47
Zack
Those people are so disconnected from economic realities. What short term risks do they want to hedge?

I think we should start by targeting people who have already invested in Amoveo. These people like doing experimental finance, so lets give them the tools they need to get rich.
SS
21:47
Spike Spiegel
I think the main application of Veo should be reducing mining reward when price is falling and increasing reward when price is skyrocketing
21:47
If it won't work then nothing else is important
Z
21:48
Zack
In reply to this message
wow, if you think this is what Amoveo is about, I must have completely failed at explaining it.
C
21:49
Chris 🍞
In reply to this message
you only want money 😂
Z
21:49
Zack
"Amoveo is a blockchain meant for enforcement of investment and insurance contracts."
first line of the README.
SS
21:49
Spike Spiegel
What's Veo supply schedule? It isn't fixed but it's decided based on futarchy
21:51
If I would be interested in insurance I would go to actual insurance company as they are legit and actually provide insurance form typical risk.

The fact that Veo holders working rationally may steer veo supply for their benefit is IHMO core application of futarchy
MF
21:52
Mr Flintstone
net hash is up since yesterday
SS
21:52
Spike Spiegel
Every cryptocurrency is competing as currency with bitcoin and other fiat currencies, but bitcoin cannot change supply schedule to target price but veo can
Z
21:53
Zack
If you guys abandon financial derivatives, and just focus on optimal mining rewards, I would feel like I failed at life.
21:54
Ultimately, how Amoveo develops is not my decision.
I guess I can always make another blockchain to try and achieve the important goals of futarchy, if you guys decided to abandon me.
MF
21:54
Mr Flintstone
the whole point of veo is financial derivatives and their applications
21:54
which is why it is such an interesting project imo
SS
21:55
Spike Spiegel
All financial derivatives on Veo depend on VEO so VEO should target being stable and slowly growing so hedging veo exposure would be unexpensive
MF
21:55
Mr Flintstone
4 million dollars isn’t enough money for veo to be useful. the price needs to grow unbounded so the market cap does as well
21:56
let the market figure it out
Z
21:56
Zack
As long as someone is willing to go long VEO, it doesn't matter if it the currency isn't stable. users can just buy stablecoins.
SS
21:57
Spike Spiegel
but if nobody is willing to long veo because most are passive holders?
MF
21:57
Mr Flintstone
people who hold veo probably have a positive outlook on veo so would be willing to go more long
21:57
going long via leverage is also capital efficient
SS
21:58
Spike Spiegel
I hold Veo myself and I feel both financially and morally obliged to do some things to increase the price / grow the network
21:58
Reducing issuance is lowest hanging fruit - one it's done there will be another idea to increase prices even more
21:59
Also it's hypocrisy to claim to be ancap while not appreciating profit motive
Z
21:59
Zack
if everyone is a passive holder, and no one wants to use Amoveo as a tool to generate value, then that means Amoveo failed to be anything other than a pyramid scheme, and we want to keep the price low so that not many people waste money on a pyramid scheme.
22:00
We only want it to grow if it is useful.
22:00
I am not anacap.
SS
22:01
Spike Spiegel
"Separating finance and state will also be good. " = that's core ancap
22:01
22:02
Z
22:02
Zack
Dominant assurance contracts are a tool for financing public goods.
anacaps think that everything should be privately owned, they think public goods are bad.

Futarchy is a tool for communities to make decisions.
anacaps think that there should be no communally owned property to make decisions about.
SS
22:03
Spike Spiegel
My theory is that people that got rich from veo aren't interested in funding DACs
Z
22:03
Zack
Amoveo could be used by communists to help run their communal systems much better.
Amoveo could be used by anacaps to hedge risks.
22:04
I believe that diversity is best. We should all be able to live side by side, participating in the systems that we believe in.
SS
22:04
Spike Spiegel
How using VEO for insurance / DAC's would increase VEO price?
22:05
There is no dividend to VEO holders
Z
22:05
Zack
if there is a demand for $1 billion of insurance contracts, then the VEO market cap would need to grow to at least that amount to serve the market.
SS
22:05
Spike Spiegel
Not true
22:06
Augur already showed that once the oracle is settled there is less demand
Z
22:06
Zack
people buy insurance not to earn a profit. they do it to reduce the odds that they will lose a lot of money
SS
22:06
Spike Spiegel
Say you need to lock $1000 veo for a year, then unlock it - but no value went to veo holders
Z
22:06
Zack
you don't get rich buying fire insurance, but you can avoid going bankrupt.
SS
22:07
Spike Spiegel
But how VEO holders would benefit from a oracle that say require some VEO locked and then unlocked.

Amount locked = amount unlocked
22:08
So the marketcap has to increase until it's resolved but then people are free to sell
Z
22:08
Zack
Participating in the oracle is profitable when someone tries to manipulate it.
If no one is trying to manipulate it, then there is no problem.
SS
22:08
Spike Spiegel
How to value is extracted from Veo users to Veo passive holders?
Z
22:09
Zack
You gain value from veo by using it to solve the problems in your life.
SS
22:09
Spike Spiegel
But it doesn't work in other direction
22:09
Veo doesn't gain due to giving utility to me
Z
22:10
Zack
The global demand for derivatives is over $1 trillion at any one time.
Amoveo is a cheaper way to enforce these contracts.
If all the contracts move to Amoveo, then the Amoveo market cap will be at least $1 trillion.
SS
22:10
Spike Spiegel
Until those contracts are settled then demand for veo drops
Z
22:10
Zack
but if that happened, we would probably raise the block reward a lot, so the price wont increase too much.
SS
22:11
Spike Spiegel
So you see the core feature of VEO is using futarchy to change governance variables to create value
Z
22:11
Zack
there is constant demand for new derivative contracts in the world economy.
At any one time, there is trillions of dollars of contracts.
They don't take a day off to close all the contracts, they just keep making more.
SS
22:11
Spike Spiegel
So if price depends on increasing demand there is well... guess what - same mechanism as ponzi
22:12
Equity pays dividend so if you hold the company for a year you are getting % from economic activity created
22:13
But if there is no rent-seeking mechanism ( rent = economical rent ) then value of VEO would be disconnected from utility provided to it's users
Z
22:13
Zack
It isn't important to me if people call what I made a "ponzi".
What is important to me is that I produce more value than I consume.
Amoveo produces value by enforcing derivatives contracts at a good price.
SS
22:14
Spike Spiegel
Not a sane person would use Veo to enforce derivatives contracts because they have to hedge against VEO price dropping using traditional financial instruments
22:14
Unless VEO has large enough marketcap that people treat it as money
Z
22:14
Zack
you can buy stablecoins from inside of Amoveo.
My expectation is that holding stablecoin contracts will be more profitable than holding USD, because there will be such high demand from people who want to go long-veo.
SS
22:15
Spike Spiegel
Go talk to actual traders, people with Bloomberg terminals and hedge funds and pitch them veo - they will tell you exactly why it won't work
22:15
Why people should go long veo if they can just buy veo?
22:15
No hassle with oracles etc
Z
22:15
Zack
There are some people like that in this telegram page. They give me advice on the continued development of Amoveo.
22:16
Why do people use leverage at all?
So they can earn more profit by exploiting the information they have.
SS
22:16
Spike Spiegel
Can you get 3 traders to actually use VEO for derivatives as PoC?
22:16
Recruiting them manually?
Z
22:17
Zack
We will find out soon. the p2p derivatives tool is almost ready for mainnet.
22:17
I am considering selling a bunch of stablecoins to get us started.
22:19
more than 3 people tried the centralized derivatives markets, but we ran into so many issues with liquidity and legal liability. I think the p2p version will be easier for now, since the volume of traders is so low.
22:19
customized p2p contracts are popular for thin markets
SS
22:19
Spike Spiegel
How one can get yield from stablecoins?
22:19
For example I can put DAI in compound and get some return
22:21
I would be happy just with infographic / explainer
Z
22:21
Zack
Derivatives aren't for making profit, they are for hedging risk.
22:23
If you are holding veo, and don't want to sell because of capital gains, but you also think the price of veo will go down, then it would make sense for you to buy stablecoins.
SS
22:23
Spike Spiegel
If I hold veo it's because I think that price of veo will be higher in future
22:24
OR if it won't be higher in the future I can always lower the mining reward
22:24
Unless VEO community is perfectly happy with price of VEO going to zero
Z
22:24
Zack
In reply to this message
vitalik is talking about tokens that are created from nothing. Veo gets its value from POW, the tokens aren't created from nothing.
SS
22:25
Spike Spiegel
What's the reason to hold VEO if you are 100% sure that price will go down?
Z
22:26
Zack
if you are 100% sure the price will go down, then you have 100% guaranteed profit by holding VEO and shorting the price.
SS
22:26
Spike Spiegel
Assuming some rationality and being profit driven ( in USD terms )
22:26
w8 what - if you hold VEO and short the price then you may have stablecoin but it's better to just sell
Z
22:26
Zack
If you have 100% knowledge of future price movement, you can usually make a lot of profit off of that information. Derivatives are a tool for efficiently selling information.
22:27
Amoveo is a platform with very efficient derivatives.
SS
22:27
Spike Spiegel
I'm sure that price of VEO will go down
22:27
What's the payoff ratio of selling to USD vs playing with stablecoins?
Z
22:28
Zack
depends on the terms of the stablecoin contract.
Amoveo lets each P2P contract be customized.
22:29
you can customize the margins and the leverage.
SS
22:29
Spike Spiegel
Can I get margincalled while shorting and holding?
22:29
It's more risky then holding USD
Z
22:29
Zack
If the contract exceeds the bounds of the margin, then either you hold 0 veo, or you hold 100% of the veo in the channel.
SS
22:30
Spike Spiegel
But there is some risk
Z
22:31
Zack
not just some, Amoveo is one of the riskiest things you could do with your money.
This is very cutting edge finance.
22:31
Risk and reward come together.
SS
22:31
Spike Spiegel
It's not true
22:32
"Risk and reward come together." <-- this is false
22:32
So VEO price should be increasing so there is reward for holding risky assets or VEO holders are mispricing the risk or they are completely clueless
Z
22:32
Zack
this is basic consequence of supply and demand on price.
SS
22:33
Spike Spiegel
unless people are unrational
Z
22:33
Zack
if the risk is low, then people keep buying it until the price is not good.
if the risk is high, then few people buy, so the price is great.
SS
22:33
Spike Spiegel
Risk and reward come together yet index funds are outperforming aggresive strategies
22:34
Risk measured as std dev volatility or % vs "true price"
22:34
What's fundamental valuation for VEO?
22:34
How to rationally value VEO?
22:35
afk
Z
22:36
Zack
In Physics they have found that each particle moves completely randomly, due to Brownian motion. And yet, we are still able to make reasonable conclusions about how large groups of particles behave.

Similarly, each individual human is completely irrational, and yet we are still able to make reasonable conclusions about how large groups of people behave.
That is why "economics" is a science that works, and why it is possible for "cryptoeconomics" and blockchain to exist.
22:37
In reply to this message
risk is an upper bound on reward, not a lower bound.

Dropping your money in the ocean is high risk, with zero reward.
22:38
In reply to this message
with a market. there are like 5 exchanges now where you can check the price.
22:40
price =/= value
Z
22:41
Zack
Kasper is a troll?
SS
22:41
Spike Spiegel
Just disillusioned with VEO
22:42
also thanks for calling me a troll ❤
MF
22:42
Mr Flintstone
a badge of honor
I
22:43
Instinct
😂
MF
22:43
Mr Flintstone
this conversation seems like it’s going down the argument for argument’s sake route
22:43
understand if you are frustrated with veo but there are probably better ways to come across
Deleted invited Deleted Account
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Z
23:24
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8080/home.html
I tried organizing the light node differently. Is this easier or harder to use?
SS
23:24
Spike Spiegel
Much better - plz add some css as well
23:25
I think I can pay $5 some random Fiverr guy to create better css - or DIY
23:27
Seriosly = improvement is already significant because even without reading whitepaper one may grasp what's roughly possible with veo
Z
23:50
Zack
It is nice being able to restart production nodes fast now.
I can update the light node software served by the full node easily.
23:52
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Looks good.
23:53
Some CSS/eyecandy would be nice, but don't rush it. I think this is a step forwards already.
MF
23:54
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
this is great
23:56
one thing I can think of is that downloaded headers and loading keys could be done from this menu, so you don’t have to do it every time
23:56
when you click on the different links
Z
23:56
Zack
8 days till the 1 year anniversary of Amoveo
SS
23:57
Spike Spiegel
Z
23:59
Zack
In reply to this message
yeah, I agree that would be nice, but if we leave it how it is now, the code is more reusable.

Right now each page of js is basically independent, so you can spin up a new page of html easily by combining any js pages.

If we had it all in one page with tabbing, then I feel like all the pieces would get too integrated, and it would be less reusable.

Probably I just need to think of a better way of achieving this goal so I don't mess up reusability in the process.
SS
23:59
Spike Spiegel
One css file without adding any classes to pure html5 code
23 February 2019
M
05:14
Michael Collins
In reply to this message
I like your attitude 💪
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EA
10:01
Eric Arsenault
Anybody interested in having some regular meetings focused on increasing adoption / go-to-market / building a product using Amoveo?
C
13:53
C
Price action gets people (both good / bad) interested in VEO. So using futarchy to calibrate the emission schedule is a good tool for sourcing more potential contributors.
13:56
In reply to this message
I think it’s disingenuous to talk about using stablecoins etc on amoveo when, practically speaking, they don’t exist yet.
Z
15:56
Zack
In reply to this message
Why are you called "admin"?
15:56
Maybe we need a tool for searching through available oracles.
That way people don't keep re-asking the same questions.
15:58
In reply to this message
https://twitter.com/zack_bitcoin/status/1099028706935390210?s=19
It exists.
I'll sell you stablecoins today, if you are buying.
S
16:58
Sy
In reply to this message
i was wondering the same, i think he just picked the name
Z
16:59
Zack
that seems confusing. Should I ban them?
EW
17:02
Eli W
In reply to this message
Should
S
17:03
Sy
haha i thought the same, give him a chance to change the name first
Z
17:26
Zack
I am realizing that the p2p derivatives tool is not very useful if we can't atomically combine a payment with contract formation. So i am adding that now.
Z
18:43
Zack
http://139.59.144.76:8070/home.html
I fixed a bug in the P2P derivatives program that made half of the stablecoin and scalar contracts fail.
I added a feature so that now you can atomically combine a payment with contract formation.
Z
20:29
Zack
I am auctioning off $500 of stablecoins, with a 1 month expiration, on mainnet.
I will start the bidding at me paying you $25 in exchange for giving me your VEO risk.

So that means this stablecoin contract will be 5% more profitable than holding USD, as long as the price of VEO doesn't drop by more than 2x.

Would anyone want to participate in this auction?
b
21:08
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
I would if i understand what you want me to do
Z
21:09
Zack
ill walk you through the steps if you win the auction.
b
21:10
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
I am far behind on understanding all this but highly interested
21:10
Where do I start to read
Z
21:10
Zack
In reply to this message
http://139.59.144.76:8080/home.html
This is the new tool that is available.
21:11
we can use it for trading stablecoins
b
21:21
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
Where do I read or start to understand this?
I understand blockchain, stablecoins amd crypto quite well but I am new in amoveo
21:22
I see the tool but I have no idea how the contract works
Z
21:23
Zack
You could google for "synthetic assets" and "financial derivatives".

All the documentation is on this site:
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
21:24
If you give me a more specific question, I can direct you to the part of the documentation that you want
21:24
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/chalang
This is the virtual machine for the turing complete smart contract language that the stablecoin is written in.
b
21:25
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
Yes i started reading your github yesterday
21:25
In reply to this message
Can i make a stable coin of another cryptocurrency?
Z
21:26
Zack
In reply to this message
yes
21:27
Ask the oracle what the price of BTC/VEO will be in 2 months, then we can bet on that, and if you bet in just the right way, you can produce an asset that stays the same value as bitcoin during those 2 months.
21:28
You can ask the oracle new questions from the light node in your browser.
b
21:31
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
I was getting into understanding dai and maker dao, from what i read you comfirm this is better, but do they have a similar working?
21:31
With collateral 1,5 and liquidations?
Z
21:43
Zack
With Amoveo, every contract is customized for the two participants. So you can have whatever margins you want, but wider margins require locking up more collateral.

Everyone has different needs. It is best if we can customize for each customer to serve them exactly. That way no one is paying for more than what they need.
21:44
We using the lightning network, so the contract is off-chain in a channel. Only in the event of disagreement, then the blockchain acts as the judge by running the contract.
A benefit of this design is that you can instantly modify the state of a channel, just by sending a message back and forth with the person on the other side of your channel.
21:45
Amoveo is a smart contract platform, but we don't store any smart contracts on-chain. They are all in the channels.
b
21:48
bitcoinsfacil - pedro
I'll continue reading Zack
s
21:55
sanket
https://twitter.com/Excellion/status/1099245393324503041?s=19


We can have a prediction market for this. Lot of people want Elon Musk to hold the LNtorch
MF
22:58
Mr Flintstone
for receiving trades, it’s a simple as just giving the other person your pubkey
22:58
then you can check if anyone has sent you trades with the otc listener page, it’s pretty easy. all you need to do is load your privkey, load headers, then click the button for checking trades
22:59
And you can just hit the accept button, and the tool will take care of everything else for you really (until the end of the contract)
24 February 2019
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Z
04:18
Zack
Now when someone sends you an offer for a derivative, you can see the text of the oracle question in the same screen.
04:19
What if someone makes an js injection into an oracle question, and it completely changes what the website looks like
04:28
BCjdlkTKyFh7BBx4grLUGFJCedmzo4e0XT1KJtbSwq5vCJHrPltHATB+maZ+Pncjnfvt9CsCcI9Rn1vO+fPLIV4=
This is my address.
You can use this page to propose a derivative contract with me: http://139.59.144.76:8080/otc_derivatives.html
You can use this page to ask the oracle any question, so we can bet on anything you want: http://139.59.144.76:8080/new_oracle.html

Send me your address, and I will offer you a stable-coin contract. You can accept a contract from me on this page: http://139.59.144.76:8080/otc_listener.html
04:33
I think this is the perfect time to increase my veo exposure.
MF
04:54
Mr Flintstone
the easiest thing to do is send zack your pubkey probably
04:55
Zack what is the most leverage you’ll take?
Z
04:57
Zack
What is nice about these derivatives, is that even if it exceeds the margins temporarily, the contract re-activates if the price goes up again.
Ill take as high leverage as you are willing to give me, but at some point it acts like a step-function at one price. like a binary-derivative.
07:19
something very interesting to read
Z
07:27
Zack
In reply to this message
I think it would be a good thing for Amoveo if more communities started using our software in other blockchains.

If more people use the software, we will find more bugs, and we can share more upgrades.
EA
07:33
Eric Arsenault
>>> "Given that all open-source code can be copied without permission, achieving network effects as quickly as possible is the only thing that matters. Achieving network effects is mostly a function of go-to-market strategy and execution. "
Z
08:06
Zack
The incentives of users and investors don't always match.
Users prefer a market with competition and low prices.
investors prefer a monopoly, and imagine that network effects will achieve it.
EP
08:11
Evans Pan
In reply to this message
But the other communities will take your credit, and users still not coming to Amoveo.
08:14
This reminds me Tron, why Tron is in the Top 10 coin given it doesnt even mention anything about its tech in its website.
Z
08:22
Zack
I am not trying to build the next Tron, i am trying to build the next world reserve currency.
08:24
I don't want credit, and I don't see why you should care if I get any.
Users will come to Amoveo, I think we can achieve product market fit with the P2P derivatives tools.
M
08:25
Michael Collins
In reply to this message
Tron has no tech just Justin lol
14:51
Deleted Account
I think you are probably smart to go long on veo at this point Zack. For someone else going for the stablecoin could be a smart move aswell. It there any premature exit of the p2p contract?
Z
15:59
Zack
In reply to this message
If both parties want to close early, and they can agree how to split the money from the channel, then they can close early
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17:33
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Do you have plans to step out of the picture at some point so nobody has control over VEO? Seems necessary for a project with such ambitions..can't have a person in control that can be extorted or manipulated
Z
17:39
Zack
In reply to this message
I am not in control of Veo. We use futarchy to make decisions.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
18:38
Zack
I don't know what a CMO is.
We don't want to pay you to promote Amoveo.
T
18:38
Tromp
In reply to this message
Hello Louis, there is no CMO I am a subscriber and watch your videos good to see you have come across this project
18:41
@hellolouistee happy to answer questions and talk to you on how you could benefit from using Amoveo. Any technical questions are best answered by Zack, he is the creator.
19:01
Deleted Account
Probably an impersonator.
T
19:02
Tromp
Could be, who knows
M
19:05
Minieep21
I highly doubt the real Louis Thomas would introduce himself like that
Z
19:10
Zack
"Louis Thomas:
Nice E-meeting you,
I can help you promote your
project, with over 95k subscribers on my YouTube channel, you can make a lot of people have a good knowledge of your project and it's benefits. All you need to do is one with all necessary information I need and I would surely do my best."

"I can help you promote your project, with over 75k subscribers on my YouTube channel, you can make a lot of people have a good knowledge of your project and it's benefits. All you need to do is provide me with all necessary information I need and I would surely do my best."

I got these messages 4 min apart. One was from "louis"
19:10
One was on discord
19:11
I think this is some kind of conspiracy.
MF
19:11
Mr Flintstone
lol
19:16
Deleted Account
Ha
T
19:19
Tromp
In reply to this message
Lol
M
19:19
Minieep21
seems legit
MF
21:58
Mr Flintstone
nobody wants to short veo w/ leverage?
Z
22:05
Zack
In reply to this message
I started doing it with someone about 14 hours ago. But we weren't able to get it to work before I had to leave.
22:05
They set leverage to 0 in the stablecoin contract, and we couldn't figure out why it didn't work.
22:05
I'm thinking of putting a warning, since leverage has to be >=1
22:06
He was buying stable bitcoin. A little dangerous for me to sell that he way bitcoin is acting.
MF
22:07
Mr Flintstone
it’s getting pretty volatile rn
22:07
maybe a massive short liq
22:07
long liq I mean
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
SS
23:52
S S
In reply to this message
Create a dominant assurance contract for amoveo Twitter page to get x followers in the next days ??
M
23:55
Minieep21
Incentive to buy some fake followers 😄
25 February 2019
Z
01:15
Zack
@arsena21 made the first P2P derivative on mainnet. he controls both accounts, he traded with himself.
01:15
He wanted to work on UX, and so I helped him make a contract with himself so he could know the process.
04:10
Deleted Account
I have thought about P2P derivatives lately an i have to congratulate you Zack on coming up with this and actually implementing it! So cool
Z
04:15
Zack
I think it was Mr flintstone suggestion.
I am excited about this feature too.
EP
07:08
Evans Pan
@zack my club organized a skiiing race in Davos. If we want to open a private betting event for the race, how to do it? and if I run the betting on Amoveo, how can I profit from this private betting event?
07:10
And I suppose people can only bet by Amoveo, is that possible to bet with BTC directly?
07:11
or even better bet by Fiat.
07:18
I can imagin private betting event can be a perfect user case for Amoveo.But it has to be with a good UX and some tools to allow bet with fiat.
08:23
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
He is not a troll. A couple month ago you called me troll too, But actually you discuss very complex question, so it's not very simple to get understanding. Your discussion was useful for me to understand some additional things about amoveo
08:30
After reading your discussions above I want to ask you some additional questions on Decision markets. I'll try not to look as a troll)