Amoveo ♥🧿
Previous messages
looks like the bug has not been fixed on the testnet.
Next messages
16 January 2019
S
20:08
Sy
and yet ppl invest...
AK
20:09
A K
A is for Altruism
S
20:10
Sy
you would have 5.4 trillion (9 zero) $ after a year with 100$ start 😂😂
20:10
but yeah, lets share this with you so we all can get rich xD
AK
20:13
A K
5.4 trln plus a gift!
I
20:16
Instinct
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
😎, 22.4 KB
S
20:28
Sy
😝
J
20:28
Joshua
😊
SS
21:53
Spike Spiegel
How to upgrade a node?
21:53
I'm at 38778 - pre-hard fork it seems
S
21:57
ah yeah, what he said 😅
SS
21:57
Spike Spiegel
I'm getting talk_helper timeout. attempting to reconnect
MF
21:57
Mr Flintstone
that’s ok
21:57
I think
Z
SS
22:04
Spike Spiegel
Why block:height(). is different then api:height().
?
?
22:04
38778 vs 49702
Z
22:04
It syncs headers first, then blocks
SS
22:09
Spike Spiegel
block:height(). isn't changing (it seems I have headers sync'd already)
Z
22:10
Zack
Maybe you need an update, or to resync from 0
22:11
Block_hashes:second_chance (). Could help
SS
22:22
Spike Spiegel
Resyncing from zero. Got 99 blocks with sync_mode:quick().
22:27
Whoa, syncing is fast - it will take just a few minutes
S
22:45
Sy
you should just run sync:start().
17 January 2019
EA
10:35
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
If true, what are the implications for prediction markets?
SS
11:42
Spike Spiegel
"Allowing reward adjustments (regardless of mechanism) is playing with fire. Miners will always vote to increase their profits. Hodlers will always vote to decrease inflation. There's no good answer to "who wins" this argument, which is why a fixed schedule is better."
Z
SS
12:03
Spike Spiegel
But what is preventing amoveo from becoming fomo3d?
- the more veo is locked in governance variable change process the less is there on open market
Isn't 50% + epsilon that different from voting?
- the more veo is locked in governance variable change process the less is there on open market
Isn't 50% + epsilon that different from voting?
12:03
Each veo counts same way
Z
12:20
Zack
It is not a vote. Having more than 50% does not guarantee that you control the outcome.
We only use the Oracle for reporting. We use off-chain futarchy markets to make decisions.
We only use the Oracle for reporting. We use off-chain futarchy markets to make decisions.
SS
12:39
Spike Spiegel
How it works actually? What's preventing the miners from not allowing anybody to reduce rewards per block?
OK
SS
12:45
Spike Spiegel
tbh i cannot understand why veo price is getting crushed like this - i thought that it would be rational to reduce issuance where demand dries to increase the price
A
12:48
Al
In reply to this message
pls keep in mind that mining veo currently is around eth profit vise
B
21:09
Ben
the majoroty of veo is currently mined by FPGA and the dump each day there Rewards.
21:10
before majoroty of VEO was mined by GPU and a lot of GPU miner hold their VEO since they believe in the Project (like me)
AK
21:13
A K
so, gpu owners = dumb, fpga owner = rational? dunno
S
21:20
Sy
i think its a mix in both parties
21:20
but tbh if you just invested into something you are imho more likely to dump asap to recover money vs running an "old" farm that already made some money
so fpgas are more likely to dump but not all of them...my opinion ^^
so fpgas are more likely to dump but not all of them...my opinion ^^
21:21
same with gpus, i know alot dumped instantly, some still hold
h
21:21
hewwo
In a bear market you dump. That is all.
S
21:22
Sy
and miss the 300$ pumps? dunno...
h
21:22
hewwo
There will be more pumps
21:23
Don't focus on a single one.
21:23
If I didn't sell all my alts I would have lost 90% of my money. So well, even a tiny x3 isn't worth the risk.
21:25
Long in uptrend, short in downtrend. Believing in projects is good but it doesn't pay the bills.
EP
21:34
Evans Pan
anyone knows the mining cost of FPGA on Amoveo?
21:35
looks like Amoveo will go down to 30 easily
21:35
retouch the historical low
V
21:38
Victor
In reply to this message
Absolutely.
The smart operators would have ditched GPUs during summer and calculated that most algos are doable for FPGAs. Even the newer ones "muh resistance".
Since adapting C++ for FPGAs became easier, it's an instant conclusion.
The smart operators would have ditched GPUs during summer and calculated that most algos are doable for FPGAs. Even the newer ones "muh resistance".
Since adapting C++ for FPGAs became easier, it's an instant conclusion.
Z
21:39
Zack
I think fpga vs gpu doesn't make a difference.
Dual miners could be bad for Amoveo.
People could be getting nervous about the dev reward unlocking. They could worry I would sell a lot of dev reward when it unlocks in 3 weeks.
Dual miners could be bad for Amoveo.
People could be getting nervous about the dev reward unlocking. They could worry I would sell a lot of dev reward when it unlocks in 3 weeks.
MF
21:42
Mr Flintstone
the only people buying veo are doing so speculatively. people are not buying veo for immediate use of the platform yet, so it makes sense we see massive speculative price swings and a general downtrend since speculative assets have negative carry until they are used
21:43
regardless of the miner composition, if we cannot satisfy 100 veo per day in sales eventually, veo would have failed in its vision
AK
21:45
which you’ve bought at 2x-3x normal price during the bubble
V
AK
21:46
A K
most GPU is huge mines
V
21:46
Victor
in summer it was still possible to sell around MSRP
AK
21:46
A K
can’t sell tens of thousands of cards
V
21:46
Victor
and only idiots and dirty money bought GPUs at 2x-3x
AK
21:46
A K
tell that to NVDA )
21:46
i mean, everyone bought, there were no other prices for almost 9 months
21:47
even if all you wanted was to play a game
S
21:58
Sy
i just realized, coming back to the dumper discussion
21:58
i have a 8 TH fpga miner on my pool who frequently empties his wallet
21:58
just saying xD
B
22:05
Ben
thats what i said bacically
22:05
i know who that is :P
22:16
Deleted Account
who is buying the di[
T
23:01
Tromp
We need more liquidity 🤔
S
23:01
Sy
buy some :D
T
23:03
Tromp
I mean better gateway for liquidity 😂 better exchange
AK
23:04
A K
6 exchanges mate
23:04
The buyers are just not there
23:04
Accept it )
T
23:05
Tromp
Yes, there is not much hype or knowledge con this project. But bittrex could be worth 20 of the exchanges we have now
MF
23:08
agreed with the general sentiment tho that more exchanges aren’t really needed for the price to go up at least where veo market cap is right now
23:09
if people want to buy veo to use it rn their bid will get filled fast enough regardless of if it’s qtrade or bittrex
T
23:10
Tromp
Yeah, pretty much all is speculation right now. This speculation is good because it provides liquidity and if prices go up people pay attention to the project
23:11
At the end everyone wants their bags to pump and people buy what is going up
[
T
23:12
Tromp
🌚
H
Z
23:18
Zack
Yx4mJqY14G2K0voAELkUns3bnogT3//ra8vBIdV9W7E=
This oracle should resolve to bad-question.
We need to make futarchy markets before we update the governance variable, that way the community can come to consensus about what updates should be made.
The oracle is a reporting mechanism, it isn't made for coming to consensus. If you try to use it to come to consensus, it is like a game of chicken, and is bad for the network.
This oracle should resolve to bad-question.
We need to make futarchy markets before we update the governance variable, that way the community can come to consensus about what updates should be made.
The oracle is a reporting mechanism, it isn't made for coming to consensus. If you try to use it to come to consensus, it is like a game of chicken, and is bad for the network.
S
23:21
Sy
oh someone initiated a block reward change again?
ŽM
23:22
Živojin Mirić
Is it Batman?
Z
23:23
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/using_governance.md
I wrote this document about how we can do governance updates safely.
I wrote this document about how we can do governance updates safely.
S
23:26
Sy
but this is just a sugestion...there is no rule to it since everyone can just start a gov oracle...
Z
23:28
Zack
A protocol is more than the software, it is a community. Social norms can be useful in systems with multiple equilibrium.
SS
23:34
Spike Spiegel
why it's bad question?
Z
23:34
Zack
In reply to this message
they didn't run a futarchy market first. see the document I linked above
SS
23:37
Spike Spiegel
Can we implement something similar to BIP / PEP / EIP procedure? So that futarchy / governance changes have to be explained + given rationale + discussed?
Z
23:39
Zack
sure. This should exist at the same time as the futarchy market. People always like to talk about what they are gambling on.
23:40
I don't think any one person should run a system like that. We should use lots of different platforms to discuss ideas, and include cryptographic checksums of important documents into the oracle question, so we can all know what an update means.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
DV
23:57
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
we started to describe VIP some time ago. will finish and publish eventually
SS
23:59
Spike Spiegel
If we believe that VIP is way to go it should be at least described somewhere - veo as unique opportunity to create transparent & fair governance model
18 January 2019
SS
00:00
Spike Spiegel
Before there would be sufficient liquidity for derivatives market it could be main selling point - "if you have proper governance you can have any features"
G
Z
02:14
Zack
My current plan is to hold my Veo longer
EP
02:24
Evans Pan
its interesting, grin and beam have very similar launch as Amoveo, but the public interest in both projects are huge. And it looks they didnt do much marketing as well.
02:25
second day after the mainnetwork lauch, everyone is talking about Grin.
02:25
why is that?
OK
02:26
O K
They've been hyped for months and months
EP
02:26
Evans Pan
who hyped them and why?
02:27
Grin maybe, but not Beam. Beam is like coming from nowhere. And all of sudden, all the crypto news are pushing news about Beam.
OK
02:27
O K
Everyone because the mW tech is interesting and some btc core devs contributed to the code base. The lore behind the white paper release is also interesting, pseudo anonymous darkweb disappearing contributor
02:28
Not saying I'm buying or mining
SS
02:31
Spike Spiegel
Also Primitive Ventures is providing good PR / marketing hype as well + moderation of "community"
EP
02:34
Evans Pan
media reporting anything relating to mW tech
02:35
hopelly Futarchy will be buzz word as well.
S
02:56
Sy
beam was super popular, afaik bitfinex ceo is shilling it
02:57
or some other exchange? dunno bit - something
02:57
and grin lol, sapphire even siad they released a gpu just for grin
T
03:10
Topab
As we have discussed before and all think similar, usability of amoveo should be one important focus to get value
MF
03:29
once people are buying veo to use amoveo instead of speculating on the future use of amoveo we will be in a better place
03:29
Deleted Account
VEO is now listed on Coinranking, my preferred price tracker: https://coinranking.com/coin/amoveo-veo
03:48
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Could using futarchy beforehand still result in a game of chicken if the market has low volume?
Z
03:50
Zack
In reply to this message
No. If the market is low volume, then no one cares enough to play chicken
03:51
If no one cares, then it doesn't matter
Deleted invited Deleted Account
05:23
Deleted Account
Ideally: the futarchy markets for govt vars should run first, and the oracle change process could not be started without being linked to a matching futarchy market...
Z
07:03
Zack
In reply to this message
That is impossible.
The Oracle is on-chain.
The blockchain can't be aware of futarchy markets, which are off-chain.
The Oracle is on-chain.
The blockchain can't be aware of futarchy markets, which are off-chain.
Z
07:23
Zack
In reply to this message
I misunderstood mw at that time. You do need the range proofs for it to work.
H
MF
08:22
Mr Flintstone
is jaxx related to coinranking?
09:06
Deleted Account
Likely not. I believe the links in that section are sponsorship/advertising related (aside from amoveo.io)
Zeebo Z invited Zeebo Z
EA
S
S
15:03
Sebsebzen
I want quality memes like LINK
ŽM
16:08
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
is an ID with post history needed or can it be a new ID?
S
16:14
Sebsebzen
Anything, but good OC and fresh memetics
ŽM
16:47
Živojin Mirić
It will be an honor
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
19:43
Shaun
In reply to this message
We'll publish a report on VEO in the next few days explaining how everything works in Laymans terms ✌️
H
s
X
22:22
X | NPC
Is IOS brainwallet secure?
Z
22:29
Zack
In reply to this message
Only cold storage is completely secure.
IOS should be fine for small amounts of Veo
Make sure to use a brain wallet that no one else will guess.
IOS should be fine for small amounts of Veo
Make sure to use a brain wallet that no one else will guess.
AK
23:17
A K
veo/usd 50 here we come
23:18
twoweeksTM
JM
23:33
Jack Metaverse
S
23:33
Sy
what was atl? 40?
MF
23:33
Mr Flintstone
aside from when it first launched 30
23:34
iirc
S
23:34
Sy
😅
JM
23:34
Jack Metaverse
Amoveo ranks Number 27 in Aladdin 100X crypto 2019 list.
[
23:36
[Riki]
Shittiest list ever
AK
23:37
A K
yeah (
19 January 2019
AK
00:35
Re why Grin is popular
00:36
Bitcoin "core" aka "1 mb 4life" pumping it hard
OK
X
AK
OK
01:45
O K
I don't do reddit so maybe that's what I'm missing
AK
01:46
A K
He's the bitcointalk admin
01:46
Before reddit
01:46
(sorry if stating the obvious :)
OK
01:47
O K
Nah you're right
Z
01:47
Zack
I'm excited for the over the counter derivative tool.
I think this will be out first killer app.
I think this will be out first killer app.
AK
Z
OK
Z
01:49
Zack
I guess we will need a new chalang contract. It will be so much shorter than the old ones.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
02:09
Deleted Account
Wow. OTC seems like a nice addition to Amoveo
V
03:49
Victor
In reply to this message
What multiplier can I expect, if market buying 0.01 BTC of each sort of shit and holding till autumn?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
EP
OK
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
10:53
The Ancients
Where a bunch of uneducated alt-right losers hang out. Don't associate yourself with them which i doubt you would anyways.
V
18:14
Never underestimate Russians, they are good at talking down fancy BS down into realistic truth and oh my God, how well they perform the scams!
Deleted invited Deleted Account
20 January 2019
Z
01:54
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-messenger
Amoveo messanger has bare minimum functionality so that we can start working on the javascript parts of the over the counter derivatives tool.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/issues/4
Amoveo messanger has bare minimum functionality so that we can start working on the javascript parts of the over the counter derivatives tool.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/issues/4
wolf invited wolf
V
03:06
Victor
Who here has the Blackminer F1 Plus FPGA?
А
03:09
Андрюхин
I wanted to buy yesterday, but didn't have much time. What's your question ?
V
А
03:25
Андрюхин
я не в россии живу (
V
03:28
Victor
Они отправляют с Китая? Какая актуальная цена на версию с 3 платами?
А
03:45
Андрюхин
3750 баксов последняя цена была
03:45
1 биток
SS
03:46
Spike Spiegel
What is game of chicken?
I
SS
03:51
Spike Spiegel
So I bet 1 veo, somebody is betting 2 veo, and i'm betting 3 veo etc.. as long as one person decides it cannot handle risk any more?
S
04:18
Sy
yes
04:18
like poker bluffing, do you bluff all in or do you bail at some point
Deleted invited Deleted Account
B
07:37
Ben
i have a blackminer f1+
07:37
Z
11:22
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/config/sys.config.tmpl#L19
I set up the customized file location to be an absolute path instead of relative.
Also, the sub-files are created automatically in the chosen location.
I set up the customized file location to be an absolute path instead of relative.
Also, the sub-files are created automatically in the chosen location.
11:27
I am thinking of setting it up to store everything in ~/.amoveo by default.
So the data files aren't mixed with the software files.
So the data files aren't mixed with the software files.
11:35
I am thinking that to keep things simple for me, I will be dividing up walllet.html in the light node into a bunch of html files. each will have different text to walk you through doing a particular task.
The benefit of this strategy is that programming will be easy, and the readability of the user interface will be a lot better.
The drawback is that if the user decides that they are on the wrong page, they have to resync all the headers when a different page loads.
The benefit of this strategy is that programming will be easy, and the readability of the user interface will be a lot better.
The drawback is that if the user decides that they are on the wrong page, they have to resync all the headers when a different page loads.
OK
13:45
O K
Why not use anchors
13:46
It would be better to let web people work on that probably
Z
14:43
Zack
I am trying to figure out where to put the interfaces for the over-the-counter derivatives tools.
14:43
I think we need to clear everything out an give it its own page.
S
15:48
Sy
Yes
15:49
Dont hide another function in the overloaded light node page
Z
15:49
Zack
im working on it now, ill push so you can see
15:56
The market smart contract we want is a special case of the more general smart contract that already exists.
So we could make it shorter by rewriting it, but for now I can reuse the existing smart contract code, and it will be secure.
So we could make it shorter by rewriting it, but for now I can reuse the existing smart contract code, and it will be secure.
17:31
Deleted Account
this can sort of be used for paying things to go certain way trustlessly with only the 2 participants knowing the terms of deal?
A
17:38
Aries
🤔
17:38
17:38
17:39
Considering playing the Prediction Market
Z
22:33
Zack
In reply to this message
Otc derivatives is for when pairs of people want to bet against each other.
It makes a direct channel between a pair of users so they can bet on whatever they want. Yes it has privacy.
It makes a direct channel between a pair of users so they can bet on whatever they want. Yes it has privacy.
22:35
In reply to this message
The prediction market isn't going to help TSA get paid.
A prediction market can predict a terrorist attack, so we know which flight is at risk of being attacked.
A prediction market can predict a terrorist attack, so we know which flight is at risk of being attacked.
ES
23:16
Ed Sonic
This is some scary stuff ... can the market help tsa by hitting on the torrorist?
23:17
Shouldn’t say help tsa but protect the passengers
Z
23:21
Zack
Yes.
We could use this kind of futarchy to make passengers safer from terrorists at a lower cost.
The USA gov even had a program to build this tool for a while.
We could use this kind of futarchy to make passengers safer from terrorists at a lower cost.
The USA gov even had a program to build this tool for a while.
23:23
It got canceled when some people realized that this meant gambling on whether people would get killed, they felt it was a bad use of tax dollars to pay people to gamble on violence.
21 January 2019
ES
00:19
Ed Sonic
In reply to this message
Might be accepted . if they saw it as gambling on “whether a terrorist attack in planes would get embarrassed or not”... as of lately I think the world know terrorism isn’t going anywhere.
Z
05:20
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/blob/master/src/js/otc_derivatives.js
I wrote some more of the otc derivatives tool.
I am trying to parse input to the form really well, so i can give useful errors and make it easy for anyone to use it.
I wrote some more of the otc derivatives tool.
I am trying to parse input to the form really well, so i can give useful errors and make it easy for anyone to use it.
Z
05:44
Zack
It seems like there are 3 modes that the otc derivative interface could be in.
Either
1) you are initiating a trade, or
2) you are waiting for someone to offer you a trade, or
3) the oracle has closed and you are trying to close the channel
I am thinking of making a different page of html for each of the 3 tasks.
Either
1) you are initiating a trade, or
2) you are waiting for someone to offer you a trade, or
3) the oracle has closed and you are trying to close the channel
I am thinking of making a different page of html for each of the 3 tasks.
16:34
We gotta win this
SS
17:19
Spike Spiegel
Can we have almost 1:1 copy of Veil interface for veo?
17:20
Maybe it would be good idea to organise Veo hackathon for developing interfaces
17:26
Deleted Account
add automatic balance updates
17:26
automatic channel saves and updates
17:26
choose your own server
17:26
many servers?
17:26
none of that .txt stuff
17:26
dunno
17:29
get rid of html generation in js? xD
SS
17:32
Spike Spiegel
At least adding some css
S
17:53
but its...tiredsome
https://github.com/Sykh/light-node-amoveo
https://github.com/Sykh/light-node-amoveo
T
18:47
The Ancients
what is this?
S
18:47
Sy
spam
s
Z
SS
21:18
Spike Spiegel
How much it would cost?
I can spend 7 * ($(current veo price) - 215) on it
I can spend 7 * ($(current veo price) - 215) on it
s
21:42
sanket
I think he meant the user interface and UX
Z
21:44
Zack
I haven't tried veil, I don't know what their ux is like.
Our markets are in the channels. I doubt it would make sense to reuse any tools from augur, since its markets are on-chain.
Our markets are in the channels. I doubt it would make sense to reuse any tools from augur, since its markets are on-chain.
s
MF
22:35
Mr Flintstone
if veil becomes a very popular way to access augur markets, maybe we can fund amoveo version with a DAC. But before we go and fund people to build a front end like veil, I think it makes sense to see what the community projects for betting UX look like first as they start to roll out. there are some important differences in UX because amoveo and augur work differently
Dmitry Murzinov invited Dmitry Murzinov
SS
23:16
Spike Spiegel
http://explorer.veopool.pw/?input=Yx4mJqY14G2K0voAELkUns3bnogT3//ra8vBIdV9W7E= it means there is ~6 veo for not changing?
Z
23:18
Zack
In reply to this message
I think it is off by about 5 veo.
Maybe something is wrong with the explorer since we did the hard update that changed how oracle bets are stored.
Maybe something is wrong with the explorer since we did the hard update that changed how oracle bets are stored.
SS
23:19
Spike Spiegel
So default state is that there won't be any change?
23:19
Either transactions are displayed wrong or state is wrong
23:20
How to formulate properly the futarchy market for governance variable change
Z
23:20
Zack
you can look up the oracle in the wallet.html page to get cryptoeconomic guarantees about the oracle's current state.
23:20
it looks like it will end in "bad-question" around 50800
SS
23:20
Spike Spiegel
Like this?
Q=veo is worth more than $100;P=oracle zItT81PP8MYrk+QDce2eUid8SQSsMzZKhWBy2Wb2WGY= returns true; (P and Q) or (!P and !Q).
Q=veo is worth more than $100;P=oracle zItT81PP8MYrk+QDce2eUid8SQSsMzZKhWBy2Wb2WGY= returns true; (P and Q) or (!P and !Q).
Z
23:21
making a futarchy market to ask about how some different futarchy market will settle is probably worthless
SS
23:22
Spike Spiegel
How one should proceed with decreasing per block reward so it would be halal and won't end in "bad-question" state
23:22
So there won't be famous play of chiken
Z
23:23
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/basics/using_governance.md
I wrote some documentation to answer that.
I wrote some documentation to answer that.
SS
23:25
Spike Spiegel
Q="we decrease the block reward by 50%";P="the market cap of VEO exceeds $5 million";(P and Q) or (!P and !Q)
But if this is true then,
Q="we decrease the block reward by 75%";P="the market cap of VEO exceeds $5 million";(P and Q) or (!P and !Q)
is even more probable
But if this is true then,
Q="we decrease the block reward by 75%";P="the market cap of VEO exceeds $5 million";(P and Q) or (!P and !Q)
is even more probable
DM
23:25
Dmitry Murzinov
Hello everyone!
I'm looking for miner software for CPU on pure C (nothing SSE/MMX/GPU optimizations). It's possible?
PS: I know at least two miner SW (but it useless for me):
1. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-c-miner (Erlang + hard to debug by cause Segmentation fault (core dumped))
2. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/VeoCL (portion of CL language)
I'm looking for miner software for CPU on pure C (nothing SSE/MMX/GPU optimizations). It's possible?
PS: I know at least two miner SW (but it useless for me):
1. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-c-miner (Erlang + hard to debug by cause Segmentation fault (core dumped))
2. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/VeoCL (portion of CL language)
Z
23:27
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-c-miner/tree/partial-hash-fix
did you try the partial hash fix branch?
did you try the partial hash fix branch?
23:28
there was a hard update that changed how mining worked at one point, so we need a different C miner for before and after that update.
SS
23:30
Spike Spiegel
What does "If the market strongly values shares of True more than they value shares of False, then we can consider changing a governance variable." mean?
Market estimating value shares of True just epsilon more than False is enough?
Market estimating value shares of True just epsilon more than False is enough?
Z
23:30
Zack
In reply to this message
I think if we decrease the block reward too much, it will hurt the price.
We need a big enough block reward so the network can grow. Growth leads to network effects.
We need a big enough block reward so the network can grow. Growth leads to network effects.
DM
Z
23:31
Zack
In reply to this message
For about the first month of Amoveo's existence, we didn't have gpu miners. the miner in C was the fastest we had.
DM
23:32
Dmitry Murzinov
In reply to this message
but I watch some portions of Erlang code - it used for mining?
SS
23:33
Spike Spiegel
Value of the network = ( Amount of coins ) x ( Price per Coin )
Obviously you can manipulate one variable without changing value of the network
Obviously you can manipulate one variable without changing value of the network
Z
23:33
Zack
In reply to this message
epsilon more is probably not enough.
if people are betting at 10:1 odds, that would be very strong evidence.
If people are only betting at 9:10 odds, that is not very strong evidence.
if people are betting at 10:1 odds, that would be very strong evidence.
If people are only betting at 9:10 odds, that is not very strong evidence.
23:34
In reply to this message
I am bad at multi-threading in C, I am bad at sending http requests in C.
I use the erlang code to turn on multiple C mining processes, and the erlang code contacts the mining pool to submit work.
I use the erlang code to turn on multiple C mining processes, and the erlang code contacts the mining pool to submit work.
23:36
Futarchy is a tool to encourage consensus.
It can't be used in all cases. Sometimes both choices are nearly equally as good, so Futarchy wont give us a strong indication that either choice is better.
Sometimes we don't have enough information to know which choice is best. Futarchy can only make the best choice given the information available to us at that time.
It can't be used in all cases. Sometimes both choices are nearly equally as good, so Futarchy wont give us a strong indication that either choice is better.
Sometimes we don't have enough information to know which choice is best. Futarchy can only make the best choice given the information available to us at that time.
23:37
I think someone rewrote this miner all in C++ at one point. it is probably online somewhere.
DM
23:37
Dmitry Murzinov
In reply to this message
I see.
What codebase or so I should use to familiar with amoveo block format (used for mining)?
What codebase or so I should use to familiar with amoveo block format (used for mining)?
Z
23:41
Zack
In reply to this message
in C: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-c-miner/blob/partial-hash-fix/amoveo_pow.c
in erlang: https://github.com/BumblebeeBat/pink_crypto/blob/master/src/pow.erl
here is where the erlang mining library is called from the full node: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/chain/block.erl#L390
in erlang: https://github.com/BumblebeeBat/pink_crypto/blob/master/src/pow.erl
here is where the erlang mining library is called from the full node: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/chain/block.erl#L390
23:41
In reply to this message
amoveo miners don't know anything about blocks. They only mine on headers.
23:42
actually, it is even less than a header. the mining pool only sends the hash of the header to mine on.
DM
23:42
Dmitry Murzinov
In reply to this message
another question: what chanell for communication used between C and Erlang in https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-c-miner ?
Z
23:43
Zack
@iDoka I used the wrong link for the erlang miner before. here is the right link: https://github.com/BumblebeeBat/pink_crypto/blob/partial_hash_problem/src/pow.erl
It was the wrong branch before
It was the wrong branch before
DM
23:45
Dmitry Murzinov
In reply to this message
where i can header format?
looks like: hash_prev_header, merkle root, nonce, time, etc...
looks like: hash_prev_header, merkle root, nonce, time, etc...
Z
23:47
Zack
In reply to this message
This is how erlang turns on some C threads:
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-c-miner/blob/partial-hash-fix/miner.erl#L17
This is how erlang sends the initial random nonce to the C program. by writing it to a file: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-c-miner/blob/partial-hash-fix/amoveo_pow.c#L99
This is how erlang receives the result from the C program. by reading it from a file: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-c-miner/blob/partial-hash-fix/amoveo_pow.c#L110
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-c-miner/blob/partial-hash-fix/miner.erl#L17
This is how erlang sends the initial random nonce to the C program. by writing it to a file: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-c-miner/blob/partial-hash-fix/amoveo_pow.c#L99
This is how erlang receives the result from the C program. by reading it from a file: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-c-miner/blob/partial-hash-fix/amoveo_pow.c#L110
23:47
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/records.hrl#L16
here is the header format. it is not used in mining.
here is the header format. it is not used in mining.
DM
Z
23:52
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_http/src/api.erl#L662
This is the api a mining pool uses to request the work from a full node.
if the mining pool finds a solution, then it can submit it to the full node with this api: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_http/src/api.erl#L633
This is the api a mining pool uses to request the work from a full node.
if the mining pool finds a solution, then it can submit it to the full node with this api: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_http/src/api.erl#L633
23:53
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-mining-pool/blob/master/apps/amoveo_mining_pool/src/http_handler.erl#L66
This is the api that a miner would use to request a problem from a mining pool.
This is the api that a miner would use to request a problem from a mining pool.
23:54
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-mining-pool/blob/master/apps/amoveo_mining_pool/src/http_handler.erl#L33
This is the part of the api that a miner uses for submitting solutions to a mining pool.
This is the part of the api that a miner uses for submitting solutions to a mining pool.
DM
23:54
Dmitry Murzinov
In reply to this message
thanks it's almost clear)
need time for processing portions of amoveo information
need time for processing portions of amoveo information
22 January 2019
Z
01:53
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-messenger/blob/master/apps/amoveo-messenger/src/tester.erl
I got this test working for the amoveo encrypted messenger tool.
This brings us one step nearer to our goal of having over-the-counter derivatives https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/issues/4
I got this test working for the amoveo encrypted messenger tool.
This brings us one step nearer to our goal of having over-the-counter derivatives https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/issues/4
Z
02:43
Zack
@Simon3456
oracle id MklLoPxcTJIe6kzKtCGiU2RUWf/wGUKYMB0B9/0crsw=
in the light node it says that this oracle expires around 56000, but in the lazy explorer it says it already expired.
oracle id MklLoPxcTJIe6kzKtCGiU2RUWf/wGUKYMB0B9/0crsw=
in the light node it says that this oracle expires around 56000, but in the lazy explorer it says it already expired.
S
02:51
Sy
i think i havent gottan any way to actually read when an oracle expires so i tried to recreate those rules on certiain events like directory change
02:51
so its quite possible that i missed something :)
Z
02:58
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/records.hrl#L71
This value is used to know how long till the oracle can end.
This value is used to know how long till the oracle can end.
S
03:17
Sy
i will look into it soon
SS
03:30
Spike Spiegel
Support for chat would be great
U
03:34
Ulvur
03:35
satoshi nakamoto
E
04:23
is the big Xevi
[
04:24
[Riki]
is he gonna list veo on binance or he is not that big?
Z
07:55
Zack
There was a bug with this feature in the config file: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/config/sys.config.tmpl#L19
It is used to choose a location for saving your full node data.
The problem was that the merkel tree was saving elsewhere.
So I fixed it.
This means a couple dependencies have changed, so next time you update your full node you will need to do
It is used to choose a location for saving your full node data.
The problem was that the merkel tree was saving elsewhere.
So I fixed it.
This means a couple dependencies have changed, so next time you update your full node you will need to do
./rebar3 upgrade.
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EP
22:12
prediction market real usage
23 January 2019
Võ Đăng joined group by link from Group
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14:25
Deleted Account
does the lightnode brainwallet generation work?
T
15:13
Topab
Microbets using LN https://microbet.fun/ Amoveo could be used for their oracle. I do not think they have one
Alexey Kanakhin invited Alexey Kanakhin
Z
20:29
In reply to this message
Amoveo can not be used to determine the outcome of a bitcoin channel.
T
21:06
Topab
The outcome of a football match would be
David invited David
24 January 2019
ДМ
03:18
Димитрий МДФ ТЕХНО ФАСАД
Good day! what is it?
[
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25 January 2019
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13:38
Topab
Martin Köppelmann on how gnosis prediction market works https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPh-XDaQG5I&t=1600s
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J
19:35
Jimmy
hello，admin
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S
20:38
Sy
hello idax
D
20:42
In reply to this message
Animation
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
41.1 KB
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Z
23:49
Zack
Idax wanted me to pay to list amoveo. I told him I won't pay, but I will help him integrate amoveo for free.
T
23:53
Tromp
How much do they charge? And what is idax 😂
Z
23:53
Zack
I didn't ask.
T
23:54
Tromp
I know bittrex international is listing coins for free
26 January 2019
I
00:00
Instinct
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MF
00:11
Mr Flintstone
what does tests mean? did they add it to an api or something
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I
MF
01:18
Mr Flintstone
“A “List” notification indicates trading has started while a “Test” notification means wallets are open and exchange is accepting deposits but no trading volume yet.”
Z
01:19
Zack
So you can send them your Veo.
01:20
Maybe @Simon3456 could give hitbtc some advice about dropped transactions.
S
01:21
Sy
Sure, just message me
01:21
But its basic tx id tracking
AK
MF
01:21
Mr Flintstone
yeah it is true
01:22
I see veo in my hitbtc balances
Z
01:38
Zack
We will eventually want to be able to search for oracles.
I wonder if we will end up putting hash tags in them.
I wonder if we will end up putting hash tags in them.
MF
Z
01:51
Zack
If there are thousands of oracles, it is hard to know whether your bet can reuse an existing oracle, or if you need to make a new one.
01:52
Making a new oracle for every bet wouldn't be very scalable
SS
01:53
Spike Spiegel
How to measure total liquidity in veo? Sum of unmatched bets?
Z
01:54
Zack
In reply to this message
I'm not sure what you mean by "total liquidity".
Can you give an example from a different blockchain?
Can you give an example from a different blockchain?
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SS
05:18
Spike Spiegel
General question: how to measure Amoveo market adoption with metric except the price.
# Count of people in telegram works ( but it's game-able of course )
# number of different oracles
# total amount of money locked
# Count of people in telegram works ( but it's game-able of course )
# number of different oracles
# total amount of money locked
MF
05:20
Mr Flintstone
total amount of money locked in channels can be gamed, but it may get expensive because of the burn fee
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I
08:21
Instinct
👍🏼
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27 January 2019
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Z
21:50
Zack
It seems like there is a incentive for altcoins to try and have their price move inversely to bitcoin. That would attract investment.
The smaller the altcoin, the easier it is to move the price like this.
The smaller the altcoin, the easier it is to move the price like this.
22:06
Deleted Account
Economist Tyler Cowen said
"I would bet against the future of futarchy, or its likelihood of succeeding were it in place.
"I would bet against the future of futarchy, or its likelihood of succeeding were it in place.
22:06
Where's this market?
Z
22:07
Zack
haha, lets try to make it on Amoveo
22:07
Deleted Account
I want to
22:07
I want to email him
22:07
Lol
Z
22:07
Zack
How can we quantify "against the future of futarchy?"
Is shorting VEO enough?
Is shorting VEO enough?
22:08
Deleted Account
Us gov debt?
22:09
What's the success condition?
Z
22:17
Zack
we should ask the oracle:
"Q=price of USD is less than 0.85 Euro;P=USA Federal government announces a policy of futarchy; (P and Q) or (!P and !Q)."
If a binary market on this question returns True, that means a futarchy policy is probably bad for the value of USD vs Euro. If it returns False, then futarchy is probably good for the value of the dollar vs Euro.
"Q=price of USD is less than 0.85 Euro;P=USA Federal government announces a policy of futarchy; (P and Q) or (!P and !Q)."
If a binary market on this question returns True, that means a futarchy policy is probably bad for the value of USD vs Euro. If it returns False, then futarchy is probably good for the value of the dollar vs Euro.
22:27
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LNQxT9LvM0
A talk at Y Combinator.
He is talking about startups who are in the same stage of development as Amoveo currently is.
Where we are trying to bootstrap the first use-case.
A talk at Y Combinator.
He is talking about startups who are in the same stage of development as Amoveo currently is.
Where we are trying to bootstrap the first use-case.
[
22:55
[Riki]
In reply to this message
any news or update on hitbtc listing? i dont find the trading pair (yet)
28 January 2019
B
00:29
Ben
you pretty much answered your question by yourself riki ;)
[
00:36
[Riki]
right
MF
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18:13
Deleted Account
no making oracle from light node? :(
S
18:20
Sy
nope, only bets
18:21
Deleted Account
just not implemented?
S
18:22
Sy
no
18:22
oracles are to important to be created by everyone
18:22
you run a fullnode or you cant make any
18:22
might change for question oracles, ask Zack but hopefully never for gov oracles
18:25
Deleted Account
but it's just a tx?
18:27
how do u even restrict oracle creation by everybody excpet making it expensive??
S
18:36
Sy
its a tx yes but the lightnode uses public api, for oracle fun you need the internal one
18:36
you could create a webinterface but it would always use the nodes funds, not someone elses
18:37
but im pretty sure someone will create an oracle betting / creation service at some point i mean, if you hand your money to an exchange or something like that, no real difference imho
18:37
just wait for the first lying oracle with 100+ veo that are there for the taking ^^
18:40
Deleted Account
yes doesn't really matter who creates
18:40
but would be nice/simple
18:40
can jsut move to public api?
S
18:41
Sy
can yes...will it happen, i doubt it
18:41
and its not in the coins interest that everyone can create gov oracles tbh
18:41
zack will have a technical explanation i guess ^^
18:41
Deleted Account
yeah but run full node really not barrier
18:41
:)
S
18:42
Sy
tell that to those who tried 😂
18:42
Deleted Account
but mainly just interested in normal oracles
18:42
hehe
P
Z
Š
20:35
Šea
Still cannot find veo btc pair
20:35
Can someone post a web link pls
AK
20:35
A K
there’s a link in the message )
Š
20:36
Šea
Oh, stupid me
20:36
Thx
AK
?
20:44
Zack could you tweet it?
Z
AK
20:45
A K
yay
AK
ES
20:46
Ed Sonic
💥🎉
S
20:55
Sy
lets see if that will get us on CMC
Z
S
20:55
Sy
i dont think you have to once its on the big exchanges but who knows...
Z
20:56
Zack
The instructions say to reapply if something changes that might make them more interested in listing us
S
20:56
Sy
alright, go for it
AK
21:01
A K
i’d wait some days for trading to gain volume
21:02
(hopefully it will)
21:02
with 0 volume on Hitbtc doesn’t look that good so far
Z
21:03
Zack
In reply to this message
It's only been 16 minutes since they listed Veo.
I doubt anyone can deposit Veo that quickly.
I doubt anyone can deposit Veo that quickly.
J
AK
21:05
A K
well i’m an expert at that )
Stepan Panov invited Stepan Panov
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29 January 2019
Z
02:34
Zack
There was a bug in the light node. It was preventing us from making channels. I pushed a fix just now. I will try to do better testing in the future. If something doesn't work, please tell me.
k
03:34
kk
Thanks Zack.
X
05:21
X | NPC
👌
T
08:49
The Ancients
more liquidity the better
08:49
thats all i care about
08:50
next exchange when?
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about blank .. invited about blank ..
T
16:47
Topab
A recent article by Robin Hanson https://www.overcomingbias.com/2019/01/fine-grain-futarchy-zoning-via-harberger-taxes.html
a.
17:43
about blank ..
hey guys, Just doing my DD on VEO. Any links to forum entries or articles that are good to understand the potential of VEO highly appreciated
17:44
Is there a roadmap for the project out there?
[
17:45
[Riki]
Hi u can find most info and links here https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/README.md / https://amoveo.io
Z
a.
17:46
about blank ..
thanks guys
patryk adas invited patryk adas
pa
23:46
patryk adas
Hello! I'm a designer working on p2p technologies http://patrykadas.com with the team http://ontop.team
30 January 2019
Z
00:10
Zack
In reply to this message
Hi patryk.
Amoveo has a lot of low-hanging fruit for designers.
I can help you set up dominant assurance contracts so that you can get paid for making stuff.
Amoveo has a lot of low-hanging fruit for designers.
I can help you set up dominant assurance contracts so that you can get paid for making stuff.
pa
00:11
patryk adas
I was told so as well, and it seems very cool with integrated oracles
00:11
I'd be up to that!
Z
00:14
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo
The vast majority of users are interacting through this javascript light node software
The vast majority of users are interacting through this javascript light node software
pa
00:14
patryk adas
link seems dead
Z
pa
00:16
patryk adas
Z
00:16
Zack
yes
pa
00:17
patryk adas
I understand you may need to the front-end to the node 🙂
00:17
baked in nicely with the onboarding process
Z
00:18
Zack
we want a smooth onboarding process to get people using amoveo
pa
00:20
patryk adas
how do you define 'using' amoveo? prediction market case?
Z
00:22
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/issues/4
This is the use-case I am focused on for now.
I am thinking pairs of people will make channels together, and make bets to have stable-coins.
This is the use-case I am focused on for now.
I am thinking pairs of people will make channels together, and make bets to have stable-coins.
00:22
It would be nice if people used the markets that are already working
DV
00:23
Denis Voskvitsov
also there is open source project myveowallet.com supporting basic operations (not markets atm)
Z
00:23
Zack
the light node already has an interface to connect with a centrally hosted market. amoveobook is running something like this as well, and they made a chrome browser plug in for it.
In the long run, I expect the central markets to be more popular, since the price is better.
In the long run, I expect the central markets to be more popular, since the price is better.
00:25
if you designed a better way to use these markets, that would be incredible.
Helping with the off-the-record derivatives system would be great too.
Helping with the off-the-record derivatives system would be great too.
pa
00:28
patryk adas
that makes sense, a tool for direct prediction markets
00:28
are you also looking for a front-end work?
00:28
or just the prototype - either interactive (framer/html/css) or static
Z
00:37
Zack
I am not personally hiring, but I will help you make a dominant assurance contract so that you can get funded based on the value that you contribute
00:38
Whatever you want to work on, I will still help you with this process, I want amoveo to start paying for things this way.
SS
00:38
Spike Spiegel
How it can work?
My logic is that if action A increases value of coin say 10% then it's rational to spend below 10% of your holding?
My logic is that if action A increases value of coin say 10% then it's rational to spend below 10% of your holding?
00:39
I mean not your personal holding but for a general holder
pa
00:39
patryk adas
how do you quantify the contribution?
SS
00:40
Spike Spiegel
How the freerider problem is solved in such case?
Z
00:40
Zack
In reply to this message
there is some risk that the thing wont get delivered.
We are all incentivized to buy insurance against the risk that it wont get delivered.
We are all incentivized to buy insurance against the risk that it wont get delivered.
00:41
this insurance money can be used to pay for the contribution
SS
00:42
Spike Spiegel
But what about it will be delivered but it won't result in measurable improvement?
pa
00:43
patryk adas
i guess it's difficult to quantify the work and its impact, that's why i was wondering if you have any process in place to valuate that
Z
00:43
Zack
Then it will be tough for patryk to raise money this way again.
00:44
In reply to this message
you can make your own oracle. Choose the words however you want so that customers can have confidence it will work.
SS
00:44
Spike Spiegel
Actual risk of delivering better UX / mockups / front-end can be mitigated.
What's real risk is that UX improvement will have zero impact on the price
What's real risk is that UX improvement will have zero impact on the price
00:44
Is there a way to mitigate this as well?
Z
00:45
Zack
In reply to this message
we can make a futarchy market to quantify that.
find the correlation between whether patryk gets funded, and the expected future price of Veo.
find the correlation between whether patryk gets funded, and the expected future price of Veo.
SS
00:45
Spike Spiegel
For me paying for something IF and only IF price increased in specified timeframe by at least % is enough to actually spend money
00:46
People should be 100% egoistic and work only for self-interest - with no altruism which is immoral
Z
00:46
Zack
In reply to this message
that is something that you can build on amoveo, the smart contracts are turing complete.
But I think that design will not be very popular.
But I think that design will not be very popular.
SS
00:46
Spike Spiegel
It's hard to create market for something one-off
pa
00:46
patryk adas
In reply to this message
but then the whole risk is put on the guy performing the job, at this point is like 99designs.com
Z
SS
00:47
Spike Spiegel
There exist market for popular commodities, there are no futures for niche products
Z
00:48
Zack
example oracle question: "P=Price of veo is > $150 on March 2 2019;Q=patryk delivered his design goals X, Y, and Z, before Febuary 15; (P and Q) or (!P and !Q)"
pa
00:48
patryk adas
In reply to this message
-> Creating a basic functionality defined in https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/issues/4 will increase the price of Amoveo by 15%
^ Just to get the better understanding
^ Just to get the better understanding
SS
00:48
Spike Spiegel
I would say that great idea would be to illustrate concept above with nice explainer
Z
00:49
Zack
if this returns True, then that means patryks project increased the odds that the price will be above $150 on March 2
SS
00:49
Spike Spiegel
Maybe I'm low IQ person but processing 4 booleans and computing probabilities is hard to do intuitively without paper and pencil
00:50
@patrykadas are you getting idea why ""P=Price of veo is > $150 on March 2 2019;Q=patryk delivered his design goals X, Y, and Z, before Febuary 15; (P and Q) or (!P and !Q)" works?
Z
00:51
Zack
It is measuring the correlation between whether patryk does his project, and whether veo is worth >$150
pa
00:51
patryk adas
(btw. i think that delivering designs will not increase the price, it'd have to be actual product)
[
00:51
[Riki]
Patrick should quote a price for his service and we should fundraise it. End.
Z
00:52
Zack
In reply to this message
I think the best way to design is by making small iterations on a working product. This style of design is well suited for dominant assurance contracts
SS
00:52
Spike Spiegel
@RikiPedala Not that simple - Amoveo has tools to do trustless crowdfunding and dogfooding is very important
pa
00:52
patryk adas
yeah, if I do the project and the VEO is worth X, then we can speculate that there was a correlation
[
00:53
[Riki]
I agree it would be more elegant and fancy to do it that way. But i think patrick is completely confused now (futarchy, dac, light node...) and thinks woooot
pa
00:53
patryk adas
i'm fine, that sounds interesting! 🙂
Š
Z
00:55
Zack
It is very new.
Probably we should start off as simple as possible.
We should make a DAC for the absolute minimal contribution to usability patryk can make.
Like $50 of his time.
Probably we should start off as simple as possible.
We should make a DAC for the absolute minimal contribution to usability patryk can make.
Like $50 of his time.
pa
SS
00:57
Spike Spiegel
I can pay 1 VEO if the price will increase by 10% from current price (75 usd -> 82 usd)
00:58
Is there a way to aggregate those claims?
pa
00:59
patryk adas
just that i'd probably bet against the claim that states 'price will increase based on 2h of my work'
Z
00:59
Zack
In reply to this message
I guess you want to ask an oracle this:
"the price of Veo > 82 dollars on March 2."
"the price of Veo > 82 dollars on March 2."
SS
01:00
Spike Spiegel
If (the price of Veo > 82 dollars on March 2) then patryk should be paid 1 veo
How much will it cost in tx / oracle fees?
How much will it cost in tx / oracle fees?
Z
01:02
Zack
a question oracle is less than $0.20 last I checked. it is free ot make a market
01:02
you need to be running a server to host the market though
SS
01:02
Spike Spiegel
The value of documenting whole process and putting it somewhere as a template is comparable to good produced.
Z
SS
01:05
Spike Spiegel
This article needs definitions - The market remembers how many shares of each type have been sold
What are shares? What is initial liquidity etc?
I can say it's almost not comprehensible for somebody seeing amoveo for the first time
What are shares? What is initial liquidity etc?
I can say it's almost not comprehensible for somebody seeing amoveo for the first time
01:06
Should I add definitions / clarifications?
Z
01:07
Zack
feel free to suggest changes
01:07
it is best if you make a pull request so your work is documented.
SS
01:20
My logic is that currently maybe 1% is able to understand veo, and maybe 1% converts to buying - increasing the % of people that can understand veo in first try will increase conversion rate from "marketing" -> "purchase" -> "usage & participation"
01:22
Deleted Account
kacper documentation looking good
01:22
how do i fund documentation dac
SS
01:23
Spike Spiegel
❤
Z
01:24
Zack
the user only needs to know how to use it. they don't need to know how it works.
SS
01:26
Spike Spiegel
1. Whitepaper = high level "how it works"
2. Yellowpaper = how it's implemented actually
3. Purplepaper = above but eli5
2. Yellowpaper = how it's implemented actually
3. Purplepaper = above but eli5
01:27
Deleted Account
but maybe just slick interface for channel management with otc contracts
LB
pa
01:51
patryk adas
yeah, I'd be up to something like that, however dunno how to define an oracle for that
01:54
Deleted Account
the light node logic/barebone ui for otc stuff seems to be WIP
01:55
then just make it slick 😊
02:31
Deleted Account
but the functionality is there in the light-node, now just add automatic syncing, automatic balance updates, show unconfirmed balance, tx history, update/read channel states automatically to/from local storage? use same account key to encrypt channel state? xD, zack need add oracle creation to light node 😅, make it pretty😍 and intuitive
02:32
pack it up in electron??
s
MF
04:36
Mr Flintstone
Cool, thanks for sharing
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15:39
Deleted Account
Can amoveo do lmsr?
Z
Z
23:08
Zack
The testnet is doing something interesting.
Someone mined some high difficulty blocks, and then disconnected from the network without publishing them.
Now the difficulty has dropped, so I rapidly mined 100 blocks, and the difficulty is still so low, that his 10 high-difficulty blocks have more weight than my 100 low-difficulty blocks, and his side of the chain looks longer, even though it is many blocks shorter.
Lets see if Amoveo can recover from this massive fork without a hard update.
Someone mined some high difficulty blocks, and then disconnected from the network without publishing them.
Now the difficulty has dropped, so I rapidly mined 100 blocks, and the difficulty is still so low, that his 10 high-difficulty blocks have more weight than my 100 low-difficulty blocks, and his side of the chain looks longer, even though it is many blocks shorter.
Lets see if Amoveo can recover from this massive fork without a hard update.
23:14
I mined a bunch of blocks, and it looked like it recovered.
S
23:19
Sy
👍
Z
23:20
Zack
@Simon3456 you should update your testnet node if you haven't yet. someone is still storing the peers from mainnet in their testnet node peer list.
23:21
oh, I bet some mainnet nodes are storing testnet nodes as peers and spamming the mainnet peer list at us.
31 January 2019
AK
S
Z
00:47
Zack
In reply to this message
I did, but not everyone updated since then.
It isn't a big deal, the testnet can handle a lot more bandwidth than this.
It isn't a big deal, the testnet can handle a lot more bandwidth than this.
DV
J
J
03:29
Jurko | Bermuda capital 📈 via @gif
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S
03:31
Sy
😂 thx
[
03:31
[Riki]
In reply to this message
Animation
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154.8 KB
03:31
jk happy birthday Sy 😄👏👏
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SS
16:13
Spike Spiegel
16:13
This is how I see practicality of crypto ideas
SS
16:40
Spike Spiegel
But first we should create futarchy market for miner's reward halved - currently utility of veo is low compared to miner's reward - we are overpaying for security
ŽM
16:42
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
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Z
17:09
Zack
In reply to this message
We aren't "paying for security". Mining is primarily about distributing coins. Security is a free side-effect.
AK
17:12
A K
even worse, we’re overpaying for nothing )
Z
17:13
Zack
In reply to this message
Distributing tokens isn't nothing.
If there was no Veo, Amoveo would be completely unusable to anyone.
If there was no Veo, Amoveo would be completely unusable to anyone.
17:13
Currency is valuable because of network effects. We need a big network
AK
17:14
A K
all the holders would rather have new entrants buy coins from them ofc
Z
17:14
Zack
In reply to this message
If we never made any tokens, there would be none to sell. No one would own any
AK
17:15
A K
absolutely, after 1 year question is what’s the optimal rate
Z
SS
17:18
Spike Spiegel
big network = high mcap
17:23
but also path dependant - if veo price per token would be at least stable (say increasing but no more than 10% per year) then one can use futarchy to stabilize / control supply ( increase supply to prevent sudden bubbles / decrease when price is decreasing below some value )
17:24
So the best idea would be to implement supply policy in a way that's most effective in getting more investments in a coin
17:27
Decreasing the block reward to almost zero isn't optimal as it would risk the security of the network
17:27
Some people argue that tx fees may replace block rewards
Z
17:31
In reply to this message
Decreasing the block reward so low would hurt the network because we wouldn't be growing fast enough.
Whether or not the reward is enough for security does not matter. Security is merely a side-effect of mining.
We could use proof of stake if there wasn't enough mining to achieve security.
The only factor we optimize for with mining is to grow the network. Security is purely a side-effect.
Whether or not the reward is enough for security does not matter. Security is merely a side-effect of mining.
We could use proof of stake if there wasn't enough mining to achieve security.
The only factor we optimize for with mining is to grow the network. Security is purely a side-effect.
SS
17:33
Spike Spiegel
How you measure network growth?
17:34
For coinholders what's important is price per token.
For founder - 20% of coinmarketcap -> price per token irrelevant
For miners - they want issuance in $ as large as possible (with profit being % of total revenue)
For founder - 20% of coinmarketcap -> price per token irrelevant
For miners - they want issuance in $ as large as possible (with profit being % of total revenue)
Z
17:36
Zack
Amoveo is psuedononymous, so we can only measure the network size indirectly.
Price increases with network effects. If you are the only person owning a kind of token, then it would be worthless.
All amoveo users share the goal of making the network bigger.
Price increases with network effects. If you are the only person owning a kind of token, then it would be worthless.
All amoveo users share the goal of making the network bigger.
SS
17:37
Spike Spiegel
So network size = count of people owning veo?
"All amoveo users share the goal of making the network bigger." - this is not true, my goal is price per coin, while others may be interested in aggregated cap
"All amoveo users share the goal of making the network bigger." - this is not true, my goal is price per coin, while others may be interested in aggregated cap
Z
17:38
Zack
In reply to this message
No.
If every user invested twice as much money in Veo, that would double the network size without changing the number of people.
If every user invested twice as much money in Veo, that would double the network size without changing the number of people.
17:39
In reply to this message
Price per coin increases with the size of the network, that is called "network effects".
17:39
Like if you are the only person who has a phone, it is worthless because there is no one you can call
17:41
If the mining reward was bigger than the demand for mining new tokens, that would be bad for all users of amoveo. The inflation would hurt the price.
If the mining reward was lower than demand, that is bad for all users of amoveo because the network isn't growing as fast as it could be.
If the mining reward was lower than demand, that is bad for all users of amoveo because the network isn't growing as fast as it could be.
SS
17:42
Spike Spiegel
Optimal growth is at stable price
17:42
And price slowly increasing is even better as it drives more capital
17:43
In bear market people would love to invest in something that's stablecoin + additional alpha
Z
17:43
Zack
In reply to this message
"Stable price"
This is meaningless.
You need to give some asset that it is stable relative to.
This is meaningless.
You need to give some asset that it is stable relative to.
SS
17:43
Spike Spiegel
usd
Z
17:44
Zack
Amoveo already supports USD stablecoin, if that is what you want.
SS
17:45
Spike Spiegel
No, I want Amoveo price to grow - it's pointless to own veo and short veo for synthetic stablecoin with a margin if i can own cash usd / usd bank account
Z
17:45
Zack
Faster growth always comes together with higher volatility.
Stable price necessarily means slow growth.
Stable price necessarily means slow growth.
17:46
In reply to this message
If you sell your Veo, you need to pay capital gains.
With a stablecoin you do not.
With a stablecoin you do not.
17:46
Many people cannot own a usd bank account.
17:47
A usd bank account can't be used for all the finance you could do wih amoveo smart contracts
S
17:47
Sy
Id say if you own no bank account you dont pay capital gains either 😂
SS
17:47
Spike Spiegel
I don't pay capital gains if I bought at higher price then current :)
17:48
I would love to pay taxes
AK
17:48
A K
))
SS
17:48
Spike Spiegel
I bought Veo under impression that if price would fall then community will organise governance variable change to keep price stable / growing
Z
17:49
Zack
In reply to this message
The community can change gov variables at any time. Even if the price is not falling
SS
17:49
Spike Spiegel
Sure, but for this mechanism to work I need to convince as many people as possible to do rational thing and decrease mining rewards
17:50
Call it activist shareholder
Z
17:50
Zack
In reply to this message
You don't have to convince anyone.
Just make a market, and check the result.
Just make a market, and check the result.
SS
17:51
Spike Spiegel
It's not that simple - I have limited amount of veo for a market. Somebody with 2x more veo then me will win the game of chicken no matter what
Z
17:51
Zack
No one has made a market to see if we should change the block reward in months. So clearly no one is interested in changing the block reward.
SS
17:51
Spike Spiegel
There is game of chicken for governance variable change
17:52
And I doubt that miners would be happy with reduced rewards after investing in ASIC's
Z
17:52
Zack
In reply to this message
No there is not. If you use the governance oracle for reporting, it works correctly.
If you try using it as a futarchy market, then yes it fails. That is unsupported behaviour which is not necessary for the succes of amoveo.
If you try using it as a futarchy market, then yes it fails. That is unsupported behaviour which is not necessary for the succes of amoveo.
SS
17:53
Spike Spiegel
Who decides what is supported / unsupported behaviour?
Z
17:55
Zack
You can try playing chicken if you want.
I am certain that the network will decide your crazy chicken oracle is a bad question.
Game theory tells me how it will turn out.
I am certain that the network will decide your crazy chicken oracle is a bad question.
Game theory tells me how it will turn out.
SS
17:55
Spike Spiegel
I'm complaining about this not being clear / this should be explained in whitepaper
Z
17:56
Zack
It's like, who decides that you shouldn't pour water into your cars gas tank?
Well, it is your car. You can do that if you want.
Well, it is your car. You can do that if you want.
17:56
You can waste your money playing chicken on amoveo if you want.
SS
17:57
Spike Spiegel
I don't understand why community isn't changing the block reward to increase the price - either people have sub $10 entry price and they don't care or they are not rational
Z
SS
18:02
Spike Spiegel
P = block reward reduced by A %
Q = price in USD increased by B %
(P and Q ) = yes shares
not Q or not P = no shares
Is it correct?
Q = price in USD increased by B %
(P and Q ) = yes shares
not Q or not P = no shares
Is it correct?
Z
18:03
Zack
No
SS
18:04
Spike Spiegel
not (A and B) = not A or not B
18:05
De Morgan's laws
18:05
the negation of a conjunction is the disjunction of the negations
18:07
Is my logic wrong?
Z
SS
18:09
Spike Spiegel
typo:
(P and Q ) = yes shares
not Q or not P = no shares
(P and Q ) = yes shares
not Q or not P = no shares
Z
18:09
Zack
(P and Q) or (!P and !Q)
18:10
You only ask one boolean question for both types of shares.
Because there are 2 possible outcomes which completely covers 2 types of shares
Because there are 2 possible outcomes which completely covers 2 types of shares
SS
18:10
Spike Spiegel
(P and Q) - what's the negation of such sentence?
18:11
It's not P or not Q
Z
18:11
Zack
Negation of X is !X
SS
18:11
Spike Spiegel
Whats the negation of (A and B)
18:11
(!A and !B) <--- incorrect
18:12
because it's (not A OR not B)
Z
SS
18:12
Spike Spiegel
But why (P and Q) or (!P and !Q)
18:12
I want to ask (P and Q)
Z
18:12
Zack
To measure the correlation of the 2 variables
18:13
If decision A is correlated with an increase in the price of Veo, then we should make decision A
SS
18:13
Spike Spiegel
There is no correlation between 2 variables - P is either true or false, Q is either true or false
Z
18:14
Zack
In reply to this message
The point of the market is to measure the correlation.
If you already knew whether they are correlated, then you wouldn't need to make a market
If you already knew whether they are correlated, then you wouldn't need to make a market
SS
18:14
Spike Spiegel
1. Miners reward will be reduced and price will increase
2. Miners reward won't be reduced or price won't increase
2. Miners reward won't be reduced or price won't increase
18:14
Either first sentence is true or second one
18:15
People are estimating probability of first sentence being more probable than second one
Z
18:15
Zack
Amoveo smart contracts are turing complete, you can write a market like that if you wanted, but I think it wouldn't be useful compared to the existing futarchy market.
18:16
What even does a market like that measure? Some undefined value no one cares about.
SS
18:16
Spike Spiegel
I care about it and I think it's valid question to ask
Z
18:17
Zack
We want to know if making a decision is good for the price of Veo, so we should be measuring the correlation.
18:17
In reply to this message
Regardless of the answer you get, it won't help you update any governance value. Since this information you find is not relevant for governance.
SS
18:19
Spike Spiegel
Say I bet on no shares - in such case I either win or price of veo increases
Z
SS
18:20
Spike Spiegel
even better
18:21
So what would be proper question to ask to change governance variable and what is exact threshold? 10 to 1?
18:21
100 to 1?
Z
18:21
Zack
I'm not sure what threshold you are talking about
18:22
"P=Price of Veo is above $200 on March 2 2019;Q=block reward is below 0.5 veo; (Q and P) or (!Q and !P)"
SS
18:23
Spike Spiegel
"epsilon more is probably not enough.
if people are betting at 10:1 odds, that would be very strong evidence.
If people are only betting at 9:10 odds, that is not very strong evidence."
if people are betting at 10:1 odds, that would be very strong evidence.
If people are only betting at 9:10 odds, that is not very strong evidence."
Z
18:25
Zack
If I knew the perfect threshold, I would have just said what it is instead of giving that long explanation that you copy-paste.
18:27
It's kind of like asking, how safe does a plane need to be for you to be willing to fly?
50% chance of crash is too dangerous.
1 in 1 million chance of a crash is safe enough.
It is hard to know the threshold between safe enough and not safe enough
50% chance of crash is too dangerous.
1 in 1 million chance of a crash is safe enough.
It is hard to know the threshold between safe enough and not safe enough
18:29
In the vast majority of cases, the actual threshold does not matter.
The futarchy market will give us a strong enough signal so we will know what to do.
The futarchy market will give us a strong enough signal so we will know what to do.
SS
18:31
Spike Spiegel
I dislike saying things about futarchy markets which are theoretical - unless the futarchy mechanism is actually tried and researched it's all guessing that it will work
18:31
Because if it would actually true (amoveo whitepaper) then using futarchy would be increasing profitability for companies and increasing demand for veo
18:32
aka if libertarianism is true then how it was never accepted anywhere
Z
18:32
Zack
Amoveo didn't invent prediction markets.
This is old technology that has been used by many people and companies to make decisions
This is old technology that has been used by many people and companies to make decisions
18:33
Prediction market research is old
SS
18:33
Spike Spiegel
Cenzorship resistant prediction markets - that's amoveo invention
Z
18:34
Zack
It is censorship resistent.
That doesn't mean we should throw out everything we know about prediction markets.
Prediction markets are well researched and well understood.
That doesn't mean we should throw out everything we know about prediction markets.
Prediction markets are well researched and well understood.
SS
18:34
Spike Spiegel
Bitcoin succeeded initially because there was significant utility for black markets (Silkroad) - the profit from selling stuff online was high enough that currency risk was irrelevant
18:35
Whats the equivalent for amoveo?
There is none currently
There is none currently
18:35
So the optimal strategy would be to increase the price & cap and get enough users so they would convert into using other utilities
Z
18:36
Zack
In reply to this message
We are not guessing. Prediction markets and futarchy are old. It is understood how this will work.
18:37
In reply to this message
Currency risk is irrelevant for us because of stablecoin.
Bitcoin didn't have stablecoin. This is an invalid comparison.
Bitcoin didn't have stablecoin. This is an invalid comparison.
SS
18:37
Spike Spiegel
In online forums 1-2% are posters and 98% people are just reading. Here are 1200 members but maybe 20-100 of them is showing activity, the number of different oracles / total liqudity is still low compared to veo marketcap
18:37
Total veo in channels ~ 7.84
Total veo locked in markets?
Total veo locked in markets?
Z
18:37
Zack
In reply to this message
Otc derivatives will be the first killer app, and amoveo markets will be the biggest application of amoveo.
SS
18:38
Spike Spiegel
Not going to happen with $3M marketcap
Z
SS
18:38
Spike Spiegel
There isn't enough demand for smallcap coins to create derivative markets for them
Z
18:39
Zack
In reply to this message
The problem is the lack of a UI to use the derivatives. Not the demand. There is enough demand.
SS
18:39
Spike Spiegel
So how to increase mcap without otc derivatives with good ux?
Z
18:39
Zack
In reply to this message
I think the most important thing now is to get the otc derivatives working.
SS
18:39
Spike Spiegel
FWIW negation of alternative of two sentences is hard to grasp intuitively - I had to write it down on paper
18:40
> I think the most important thing now is to get the otc derivatives working.
Agree - it will drive nonspeculative demand
Agree - it will drive nonspeculative demand
Z
18:40
Zack
Otc derivatives is a lot simpler than the markets we already support
18:40
And I already did most of the programming for otc derivatives
18:42
In reply to this message
That does not make any difference.
derivatives work the same way whether the market cap is $10k or $10 trillion
derivatives work the same way whether the market cap is $10k or $10 trillion
18:43
In reply to this message
No one asked you to do that. It doesn't relate to amoveo.
Just you posting random math for no reason.
Just you posting random math for no reason.
SS
18:49
Spike Spiegel
I'm not doing things because people ask me to do but because I want to do things
18:51
Governance process is undocumented and more people will ask "stupid questions" if it won't be explained properly
18:52
It is documented
SS
18:53
Spike Spiegel
Well, - "then we can consider changing a governance variable" so futarchy market is required for consideration
18:53
Who is "We" in this article?
18:54
"then we can consider changing a governance variable." how final decision is actually made?
Z
18:54
Zack
Futarchy markets are for making decisions. Governance markets are for reporting our decision to the blockchain.
SS
18:54
Spike Spiegel
How one can decide if P="the market cap of VEO exceeds $5 million" is actually a public good?
18:55
What are actual values of coin holders?
Z
18:55
Zack
Futarchy markets tell you how to achieve a goal. It doesn't tell you whether it is a good goal to achieve.
18:56
You could make a market to find out how to cause polar bear extinction.
18:57
If our goal is to have a higher market cap of Veo, then futarchy will tell us what to do to achieve that goal.
T
20:36
Tromp
I dont think you need mining for network effects in crypto right now, just a huge pump of the price would bring attention to the project. Crypto is still mostly speculative so people want to buy things that pump.
Z
20:40
Zack
We need to convert value into cryptocurrency form somehow.
Advertising is a way to turn cash value into cryptocurrency value.
mining is a way to turn electricity value into cryptocurrency value.
From a game theoretic perspective, it seems like mining is more efficient. Where efficiency is measured as: (value of coins produced)/(value burned in the conversion)
Paul Sztorc has a nice essay about this
Advertising is a way to turn cash value into cryptocurrency value.
mining is a way to turn electricity value into cryptocurrency value.
From a game theoretic perspective, it seems like mining is more efficient. Where efficiency is measured as: (value of coins produced)/(value burned in the conversion)
Paul Sztorc has a nice essay about this
T
20:42
Tromp
Dont you think if veo pumped 10x more people and miners would pay attention?
Z
20:42
Zack
It would be a cool experiment. A POS blockchain that used futarchy to decide how to spend new tokens, and it always payed for advertisements.
20:43
Pumpcoin
T
20:43
Tromp
Hahahaha
20:43
That is reality in this market rigt now or always has been
20:44
If bitcoin stayed in like 10$ range for 10 years not many people would have payed attention
Z
20:45
Zack
I think getting people's attention isn't the right goal for Amoveo right now
20:45
We need a stable use-case with regular users.
T
20:45
Tromp
Isnt it possible that users come after mkt cap is bigger?
Z
20:45
Zack
Once we can see how people use Amoveo, then we will be able to handle growth in the user base. We will be able to give coherent explanations of the product
20:46
My goal is to build a good product
T
20:47
Tromp
Yes of course and it is growing to be a great product, but for testing you need users and people knowing about it
Z
20:47
Zack
There are plenty of people for testing already
T
20:48
Tromp
Great, i havent been able to test it because to be honest dont find it user friendly enough still
Z
20:48
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/issues/4
I think this is the bottleneck for now
I think this is the bottleneck for now
SP
21:58
Stepan Panov
This might me a silly question or a one that's been asked before, but - when the loosing bets are distributed among those who bet on the winning outcome, are they distributed equally or in correlation with the size of their initial bet?
Z
21:59
Zack
In reply to this message
amoveo uses the lightning network for betting.
Pairs of people have channels together.
The money in the channel is locked in a bet. eventually, when the bet is resolved, the money from the channel is distributed to the 2 people who participated in making that channel.
Pairs of people have channels together.
The money in the channel is locked in a bet. eventually, when the bet is resolved, the money from the channel is distributed to the 2 people who participated in making that channel.
SP
22:05
Stepan Panov
What about the questions oracle? The faq on amoveo.io says 'The winner among the players is determined on those bases. The jury that voted for any other answers loses their stakes in favour of the supporters of the winning option'.
22:06
Do all the jurys who voted for a winning answer get an equal share or their shares are calculated somehow?
Z
22:09
Zack
the oracle is on-chain, it is not inside channels.
The result of the oracle is data that is available to all the channels.
There is no voting in Amoveo.
People report the result to the oracle. The oracle is not for making decisions, it is only for reporting on decisions that have already been made.
The result of the oracle is data that is available to all the channels.
There is no voting in Amoveo.
People report the result to the oracle. The oracle is not for making decisions, it is only for reporting on decisions that have already been made.
22:10
I didn't write amoveo.io
22:12
@Simon3456 was right. there was a bug with automatically adding your own ip to the peers list.
I guess I didn't notice because all my nodes were hard-coded into the default peers list.
I guess I didn't notice because all my nodes were hard-coded into the default peers list.
SP
22:12
Stepan Panov
I know you didn't, just trying to wrap my head around it. So there are no tokens involved in reporting the result?
SP
22:14
Stepan Panov
thanks man, I'll have a look
[
1 February 2019
Mike invited Mike
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
k
10:37
kk
I like how $veo price remains stable even when the whole CMC is full red
Maybe low liquidity works well for holdrs. No one is in a hurry to dump their bags
Maybe low liquidity works well for holdrs. No one is in a hurry to dump their bags
e
SS
13:48
Spike Spiegel
yup
13:53
But community is also not willing to change reward per block to decrease supply
14:04
Aka I'm the only one advocating for supply cut?
S
14:04
Sy
And you dont do it why?
M
14:14
Minieep21
Well, solution to no use is using
14:15
Block reward decrease would probably pass if it appeared again
SS
14:16
Spike Spiegel
Because I want to be sure It will pass before I will risk my money
14:16
If there is rough consensus in the community that's the good idea then it would be nice to confirm it with futarchy market
14:17
Using futarchy before discussion is bad idea because people usually form their opinion on presented arguments - https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/pulls
M
14:21
Minieep21
Ok, what would be the best way to gauge community attitude?
SS
14:24
Spike Spiegel
Comments on github under AIP (Amoveo Improvement Proposal) - to always hear well articulated arguments for / against.
Carbonvote maybe?
I know that voting is unsecure but it works for pooling the zeitgeist
Carbonvote maybe?
I know that voting is unsecure but it works for pooling the zeitgeist
14:25
Deleted Account
best way/amoveo way to gauge is make futarchy??
S
14:26
Sy
You just need 0.3 veo for an oracle i think, thats 20$?
14:26
Deleted Account
yeah
14:26
just do it and stop talking
SS
14:26
Spike Spiegel
What will happen if I will open oracle and nobody will be participating?
S
14:26
Sy
We just had one recently tho
14:27
You participate as first vote and set the direction
14:27
Deleted Account
yeah i dont really care about reward at the moment but anyone can start the process so
MF
14:27
Mr Flintstone
0.022 for the futarchy oracle and 0.33 for the governance oracle
S
14:27
Sy
If it is just created, nothing
14:27
Lazy block explorer!
http://explorer.veopool.pw/?input=Yx4mJqY14G2K0voAELkUns3bnogT3//ra8vBIdV9W7E=
http://explorer.veopool.pw/?input=Yx4mJqY14G2K0voAELkUns3bnogT3//ra8vBIdV9W7E=
14:28
Time to close it i guess
SS
14:29
Spike Spiegel
$1.43 for futarchy oracle?
14:34
Oracle Question Liquidity Transaction Fee
0.02210247 veo
0.02210247 veo
14:35
we want price or market cap? :)
SS
14:36
Spike Spiegel
price
S
14:54
Deleted Account
and sjw?? 😅
SS
15:03
Spike Spiegel
Iota devs are trinary
15:04
Usage is low but "product / core" is great - it needs just more marketing / UX / documentation. It's better to start with something with good core then slowly evangelize it
M
15:06
Minieep21
UX and marketing is all atm. How can people start participating if they don't know how to or it's difficult
M
S
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
SS
17:16
Spike Spiegel
Appreciate this - It would be easier to participate in already existing market
17:16
So I don't mess something with it
EW
SS
17:32
Spike Spiegel
"P=Price of Veo is above $200 on March 2 2019;Q=block reward is below 0.5 veo; (Q and P) or (!Q and !P)" would be great
Toni invited Toni
21:02
Deleted Account
dunno i tried making the oracle
21:02
e6tEDWbPFv36PfTk8T0Ljz1chGgratpPfAE5udcz2Bk=
21:07
cant get market to work
21:07
but cant create channel at http://139.59.144.76:8080 either
21:07
for progpowarchy
MF
21:19
Mr Flintstone
someone needs to run the market
21:22
Deleted Account
well i ran createmarket command it shows up at http://198.211.104.135:8080/explorer.html but cant really bet
MF
21:27
Mr Flintstone
how much veo do you have in the pubkey on that node?
21:28
Deleted Account
ok not much
21:30
0.42
DV
21:41
Denis Voskvitsov
Veoex I can see your oracle is set to start on block 57000. that's quite far away.
21:42
for anyone who wants to play with it, we've created the same oracle, which is ready to bet:
K4jLTsvaLsOlqVFvwUfmO7J82CY75h+H6KMGrmUVsnI=
21:42
Veoex you can try to host a market based on that oracle
MF
22:14
Mr Flintstone
whoa net hash really picking up
Sandu invited Sandu
2 February 2019
SS
00:37
Spike Spiegel
Can Nakamoto Consensus be used for subjective questions?
00:37
For example "are strawberries better than bananas?"
MF
00:41
Mr Flintstone
no
00:41
Maybe in some super unrelated but abstract way
SS
01:40
Spike Spiegel
Does anybody started the futarchy? I have veo ready for betting
DV
01:42
Denis Voskvitsov
oracle is ready, market has to be run
Z
01:48
Zack
this oracle is still open
this is a question oracle
asks: YVZCUVYyeGpaRUZhWm10c1ZqWkNlbkZ6ZG1WaFFXTmhkbkEyWWpoUUwxQTFaV3czY3pOTWJVUXlaejA9
starts: 51865
current type: bad-question
done timer: 52864
["oracle","K4jLTsvaLsOlqVFvwUfmO7J82CY75h+H6KMGrmUVsnI=",0,"iPPWlcdAZfklV6BzqsveaAcavp6b8P/P5el7s3LmD2g=",51865,3,0,"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=","BHVfQWRx7I1xmlWw5KJ7l9ijq4tcobFCub68jsmCGaEQXSr/hi0Vpz8+wa0v8ytcTEUu4wJwTfC+7q6r+CPYS20=",52864,0,0]
Is the oracle made correctly?
Is the question really supposed to say YVZCUVY.... if we load this oracle in the wallet?
this is a question oracle
asks: YVZCUVYyeGpaRUZhWm10c1ZqWkNlbkZ6ZG1WaFFXTmhkbkEyWWpoUUwxQTFaV3czY3pOTWJVUXlaejA9
starts: 51865
current type: bad-question
done timer: 52864
["oracle","K4jLTsvaLsOlqVFvwUfmO7J82CY75h+H6KMGrmUVsnI=",0,"iPPWlcdAZfklV6BzqsveaAcavp6b8P/P5el7s3LmD2g=",51865,3,0,"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=","BHVfQWRx7I1xmlWw5KJ7l9ijq4tcobFCub68jsmCGaEQXSr/hi0Vpz8+wa0v8ytcTEUu4wJwTfC+7q6r+CPYS20=",52864,0,0]
Is the oracle made correctly?
Is the question really supposed to say YVZCUVY.... if we load this oracle in the wallet?
01:49
Deleted Account
i made bad oracle then denis made K4jLTsvaLsOlqVFvwUfmO7J82CY75h+H6KMGrmUVsnI=
01:50
i created market for it but can't get to work cause im stupid
Z
01:50
Zack
yes, I was asking about the oracle Denis made
01:51
Deleted Account
yea im using it for my market
DV
01:52
dunno why it shows YVZCUV... in light node
Z
01:53
Zack
oh, I must have not programmed the light node to display the text. it is displaying the hash of the text.
01:53
In that case the oracle looks good to me
01:54
Deleted Account
dunno if old govoracle closed and how long you can delay closing of new oracle and game it somehow?
Z
01:54
Zack
In reply to this message
each governance variable can only have one active governance variable at a time.
01:56
Deleted Account
was able to open channel with my server after keys:unlock() on server 😆but trying to bet still gives 500 internal server on chrome console
Z
02:00
Zack
In reply to this message
you mean
maybe you also need
keys:unlock('').maybe you also need
sync_mode:normal().
02:00
Deleted Account
yese
02:00
to both
02:01
syncing node was easier this time no adding peers or adding yourself to peers and stuff like that
Z
02:02
Zack
yeah, I recently fixed that.
Sorry for leaving it broken so long.
Sorry for leaving it broken so long.
02:02
Deleted Account
👌
02:03
although docs still say to do it? hhmm
Z
02:21
Deleted Account
yay
Z
02:22
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/pull/220
Should I refuse to merge this because his user name is "charles manson"?
Should I refuse to merge this because his user name is "charles manson"?
MF
02:27
Mr Flintstone
lol
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
02:45
Deleted Account
oh yes
02:45
oh boy
Z
02:45
Zack
In reply to this message
are you sharing blocks and headers, or are you only sharing headers and keeping the blocks secret
02:45
?
02:45
Deleted Account
yes probably sharing only headers
MF
02:45
Mr Flintstone
how do you make your node share blocks too?
Z
02:46
Zack
In reply to this message
looks like you broke the testnet. Now will you fix it by sharing your blocks?
02:46
Deleted Account
😀
MF
02:46
Mr Flintstone
I’m not sure he is aware of how to command the node to share blocks(or am I lol)
Z
02:46
Zack
Maybe we need a testnet where only Mr Flintstone and I can mine.
02:46
Deleted Account
lmfao
MF
02:46
Mr Flintstone
I think peers:add may do something
Z
02:47
what is your IP?
Z
02:49
Zack
Now I received Veoex's blocks, but I still don't have him as a peer. very strange.
MF
02:49
Mr Flintstone
weird, maybe I will absorb them from you now
Z
02:49
Zack
In reply to this message
are you running the latest software? does
I thought we fixed the sharing IPs bug already.
git pull update anything?I thought we fixed the sharing IPs bug already.
MF
02:50
Mr Flintstone
yeah he downloaded it like 15 mins ago
02:50
Deleted Account
yup
02:50
adn then i started mine like a badass
Z
02:50
Zack
I added Veoex as a peer manually, and it worked.
02:51
How did I get all these blocks without having him as a peer???
MF
02:51
Mr Flintstone
yes I got the blocks nice
Z
02:52
Zack
my_ip:get().looks like the bug has not been fixed on the testnet.
MF
02:53
Mr Flintstone
oh maybe you forgot to merge the change to testnet branch?
Z
02:53
Zack
I must have forgotten to merge the fix yes
02:56
03:01
Deleted Account
🥰
Z
03:01
Zack
I restarted my node for the fix, and my peers all disappeared
MF
03:02
Mr Flintstone
lol I hope I can get Veoex ‘s blocks now
Z
03:04
Zack
I re-added veoex as a peer manually, I am not sure why you guys aren't giving me the peers list. I hope the fix didn't break something different.
03:04
Deleted Account
wait i need to update xD?
Z
03:05
Zack
one of you sent me the peers. I am all synced up.
03:05
In reply to this message
your ip is already on the peers list, so updating wont make a difference. the only thing we fixed was adding new nodes to the peers list.
03:05
I just updated to make sure the new update wont break anything.
03:06
Deleted Account
ok
Z
04:48
Zack
In reply to this message
Did we come to any conclusions about this?
I guess I should just play it safe and rewrite the update myself so his name isn't included.
I guess I should just play it safe and rewrite the update myself so his name isn't included.
M
12:04
Deleted Account
Could amoveo have a use case in sports player compensation?
MF
12:11
Mr Flintstone
maybe to facilitate insurance around not getting minutes/snaps or something
12:11
or incentives
Z
16:53
Zack
In reply to this message
You can bet on your own game, and then lose on purpose to win your bet
S
17:03
Sy
testnet is at 1099?
17:03
hmm explorer says otherwise xD
17:03
peers:all().
[{{127,0,0,1},8070},
{{139,59,144,76},8070},
{{198,211,104,135},8070},
{{116,203,36,161},8070},
{{18,222,121,248},8070}]
[{{127,0,0,1},8070},
{{139,59,144,76},8070},
{{198,211,104,135},8070},
{{116,203,36,161},8070},
{{18,222,121,248},8070}]
17:04
do we have more now?
17:04
it looks like 139. is not testnet
Z
S
17:06
Sy
just updated and restarted
17:06
node was stuck around 1000, api says height is 3000, doesnt sync
17:06
ah there we go, i removed peer 139.59 by hand
17:06
can you add a peer remove if he is on the wrong blockchain pls?
Z
s
Z
17:46
Zack
In reply to this message
arbitrage is when you make 2 trades simultaneously to earn profit without taking any risk. This isn't arbitrage.
S
17:58
Sy
exactly, buying on one side, sending it over and hoping it will be fast enough isnt really the way to go
SS
18:17
Spike Spiegel
Why "K4jLTsvaLsOlqVFvwUfmO7J82CY75h+H6KMGrmUVsnI=" is in bad question state?
Z
18:22
Zack
In reply to this message
betting doesn't start for about 900 more blocks.
We can't change the state until we can start betting.
We can't change the state until we can start betting.
DV
20:33
Denis Voskvitsov
I don't think so. oracle is ready for betting, it just has no bets yet
Z
20:42
Zack
We need to make a futarhy market and resolve it before this oracle expires?
SS
20:44
I think there is great marketing value in showing that on-chain governance is actually possible
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Deleted invited Deleted Account
23:20
Deleted Account
can't trade VEO coin in Hitbtc? What's going on?
MF
23:28
Mr Flintstone
I think lots of people are having trouble accessing veobtc on hitbtc, seems like a problem on their end
3 February 2019
AC
00:46
Alberto Costanzini
voices says that hitbtc is exit scamming
S
03:32
Sebsebzen
Don’t deposit coins there
OK
04:00
O K
They did fail Proof of Keys after all
C invited C
s
05:00
sanket
I had tried 2 days back. It was working fine.
S
05:31
These guys do like third party UI for prediction markets
05:31
they wrapped around Augur
05:31
but there's not reason why they shouldn't include Veo
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
k
Z
19:55
Zack
If I want to do some off-the-record type encryption, I need to publish a private key publicly as one of the steps.
Where are some good places to publish this private key? 4chan? youtube comments?
Is there a telegram channel for publishing this sort of stuff? a reddit page?
Where are some good places to publish this private key? 4chan? youtube comments?
Is there a telegram channel for publishing this sort of stuff? a reddit page?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
20:21
Zack
I want to do some off-the-record type encryption
20:22
it is encrypted messaging, with the added benefit of deniability.
Even if someone can decrypt the message, they can't prove you are the one who sent it.
Even if someone can decrypt the message, they can't prove you are the one who sent it.
20:22
even though you proved to them that you are the only one who could have sent it
Z
20:47
Zack
maybe I should make a server to store anyone's private keys for 1 month, and make them publicly available to anyone who wants a copy, and it only costs like 1 miliVEO
SS
20:51
Spike Spiegel
Veo tuning into whatsapp? :)
21:24
Deleted Account
what if veo is not meant to go up in price but you are supposed to collect fees from routing/marketmaking and this requires printing more veo to increase velocity??!
T
21:26
Tromp
If it doesnt go up in price people wont pay attention in my opinion. Thats how crypto works at least for the next years while it matures
21:27
Deleted Account
prob yeah haha
Z
21:28
Deleted Account
i dint price speculate imo
21:41
the goal of veo should be to maximize its hash rate since its the measure of aliveness of network
21:42
market cap is gameable
21:43
price is just lol idea to maximize
Z
21:44
Zack
We all have different goals. Amoveo makes futarchy so we can know what strategy will help us achieve our individual goals.
Usually, this is enough for the community to come to consensus about what should be done.
Usually, this is enough for the community to come to consensus about what should be done.
21:45
Deleted Account
maximize hash rate shoudl be THE GOAL
21:45
and it can be fully automated??
21:45
make it consensus rule xD
21:46
run futarchy on hash rae that can be easily read within network
Z
21:46
Zack
Amoveo is the community of people. The software is just guidelines to help the community along.
21:47
In reply to this message
Users can trick the blockchain by messing with timestamps. So the blockchain can't force us to make decisions that maximize hashrate
21:48
If we all agree to do something, then it will get done, regardless of what the blockchain says now.
21:48
In reply to this message
If we mess with timestamps, we can make the hashrate look higher or lower
21:49
Deleted Account
yeah someone should solve how to get rid of them
Z
21:52
Zack
Blockchain and futarchy are consensus tools, not tools for controlling people or forcing them to be optimal.
We can encourage consensus with financial motivations.
We can encourage consensus with financial motivations.
21:53
Deleted Account
blockchains are form of artificial life and they should be as alive as possible and this is measured by their hash rate
Z
21:54
Zack
You are alive, but if all your cells in your body decided to go their own way, you would be gone.
21:54
Deleted Account
yeah and my hash rate would be gone
21:55
maximizing hash rate brings the network participants together
Z
21:55
Zack
Maybe what you mean to say, is that the blockchain that best maximizes hashrate will out compete all the others, so we should try to maximize hashrate to succeed?
21:56
Deleted Account
i think so
Z
21:56
Zack
More hashrate directly means faster growth. If you grow faster, you tend to win
21:56
Deleted Account
yeah!
Z
21:57
Zack
But just like a plane with its nose too high, I think we could stall out if embraced this goal too rapidly
21:58
There is a point where raising the block reward 1% increases the hashrate much less than 1%. In this case, raising the block reward increases the hashrate but hurts the market cap
21:59
I think the blockchains that focus on maximizing their market cap will out compete blockchains that maximize their hashrate
22:00
Futarchy might end up choosing something between
22:03
Deleted Account
hhm interesting
4 February 2019
SS
00:36
What's the Amoveo answer to that?
Z
00:37
Zack
so far, the volume of questions is low enough that if you ask on one of our forums, I can get an answer to you within a day
MF
00:38
Mr Flintstone
veo needs to be used as cash collateral in amoveo cash settled financial derivatives, so unless you have veo you cant use it
00:38
the key is making people want to use it lol
Z
00:39
Zack
oh, the value-driver.
Financial derivatives are a huge part of the economy, one of the most common use-cases of currency.
Amoveo allows us to enforce financial derivatives at much lower cost than existing solutions, because we got rid of trusted third parties.
Financial derivatives are a huge part of the economy, one of the most common use-cases of currency.
Amoveo allows us to enforce financial derivatives at much lower cost than existing solutions, because we got rid of trusted third parties.
SS
00:44
Spike Spiegel
why amoveo will be able to capture value from derivatives?
T
SS
00:45
Spike Spiegel
If you need $1000 worth of veo as collateral locked for some period of time - then value capture is USD depreciation during holding time
00:45
If somebody uses veo to lock $1000 it doesn't mean $1000 of value will go to veo mcap
T
00:47
Tromp
How much of traditional market value comes from fundamentals and how much from speculation?
00:47
Speculation will always be there, so if you lock 1000$ of veo the that reduction combined with all others could make the price climb
Z
00:48
Zack
People buy derivatives to hedge risks. It is like insurance.
If you know that your business will buy so much gas in the next year, you could use derivatives to hedge your risk against the possibility that gas prices will rise
If you know that your business will buy so much gas in the next year, you could use derivatives to hedge your risk against the possibility that gas prices will rise
SS
00:48
Spike Spiegel
1. Lock $1000 worth of veo for 1 year
2. Unlock $1000 worth of veo after 1 year
How much veo mcap increased?
2. Unlock $1000 worth of veo after 1 year
How much veo mcap increased?
MF
00:48
Mr Flintstone
you have to lock up capital to use financial derivatives
00:48
there is no way to get around that
00:49
so if financial derivatives are being used so is capital
T