Amoveo ♥🧿
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5 March 2018
MF
03:52
Mr Flintstone
No
03:52
that is an auction ending March 7
03:52
I’m just tryna buy some
OK
03:52
O K
I'm asking if Zack or someone is going to make the sale to you right now
03:53
Who are you using for escrow
MF
03:53
Mr Flintstone
I would be happy to purchase 100 veo from Zack but I do not think he intends to sell those to me
OK
03:53
O K
You could use an openbazaar arbitrator
Z
03:54
Zack
I don't want to sell any VEO. I only did the auction because it is an experiment to find out a price estimate.
MF
03:54
Mr Flintstone
yeah
03:57
Deleted Account
I think we need to increase mining rewards to improve distribution
Z
03:57
Zack
Now there is a bid for $8 per Veo
03:58
Deleted Account
Increasing reward keeps the price down, encourages miners to sell to others, and can be done while keeping a positive ROI on all mining
Z
03:58
Zack
In reply to this message
I was thinking this too. But Mandel seemed pretty upset about the idea earlier, so now I am less confident.
It is a tough decision to make.
It is a tough decision to make.
03:59
Deleted Account
Well mandel has many coins and increasing reward has an immediate downside effect on price
OK
03:59
O K
I respect the work @Mandelhoff has done, but I believe he is going to be well off over time in Amoveo
Z
03:59
Zack
yes
OK
03:59
O K
I think 32 may "feel" small, but these are not ripples
03:59
It is a large chunk of the total supply right now
04:00
Deleted Account
If nobody is selling their coins then you know the inflation and supply is too low right now
OK
04:00
O K
No, it means the price is too low
04:00
Deleted Account
If people are willing to pay $100 for someone that costs $10 to produce, there is too much incentive to miners
Z
04:02
Zack
In reply to this message
this logic is confusing to me.
It sounds like a problem due to a scarcity of miners.
Simply doubling the reward per miner wouldn't change how many miners there are
It sounds like a problem due to a scarcity of miners.
Simply doubling the reward per miner wouldn't change how many miners there are
OK
04:02
O K
"too much incentive to miners"?
D
04:04
D
Zack I have read that lightning is necessary to do an atomic swap from bitcoin/litecoin to another cryptocurrency. It would be cool if we didn't need an exchange to sell amoveo for another crypto. I'm not terribly familiar with lightning or your implementation of it yet. What do you think would be involved to make an atomic swap happen on amoveo?
Z
04:04
Zack
We have a $40,000 market cap now.
04:04
Deleted Account
It may be a scarcity of miners due to barriers to entry, which I believe is the case. Barrier to entry during distribution phase is probably not ideal. You would need miners to sell but they won’t sell unless the cost per coin to produce is kept low for a period of time
MH
04:04
Mandel Hoff
There is currently only one miner with all the speed. Adding inflation gives him about 98% of the new coins.
OK
04:05
O K
the barriers are coming down fast Ryan, those of us that have been trying to mine the last few days have put a lot more than "$10" into it if you factor in the time we've spent troubleshooting etc
04:05
24 hours ago we didn't have a public GPU miner working
Z
04:05
Zack
In reply to this message
lightning is when a blockchain does an atomic swap with itself.
an atomic swap is when you do half a lightning on one blockchain, and half on the other.
We already have lightning payments. I guess the next step is we should identify an atomic swap system that uses SHA256, so we would be compatible.
an atomic swap is when you do half a lightning on one blockchain, and half on the other.
We already have lightning payments. I guess the next step is we should identify an atomic swap system that uses SHA256, so we would be compatible.
OK
04:05
O K
First, we need to level the playing field with miners, then increase the block reward
04:05
Deleted Account
Is there only one miner with 98% of hash?
04:06
I’m talking about increasing miner rewards as the barriers to entry decline
OK
04:06
O K
while there are people using tehir own algorithms and hardware that isn't available for the community there will be a disparity
MH
04:06
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
When that miner has competition then inflation could make sense for the community. Not until that.
04:06
Deleted Account
Great some have GPU mining but doesn’t help me until we have a linux gpu miner
OK
04:06
O K
I think we are mostly on the same page here
Z
OK
04:07
O K
@scottmatheina Even those of us that have taken the time to set up windows for GPU aren't having a walk in the park
MH
04:07
Mandel Hoff
Gpu is almost pointless. We have 100 gpu on my pool and it's under 1 in 50 blocks
04:07
Deleted Account
There was essentially a monopoly on day one because there was one gpu miner. Keeping the reward fixed when barriers to entry are removed increase hash rate substantially and makes he cost to produce coins increase, but early monopolies still have substantial coins earned at much cheaper values
Z
04:07
Zack
Maybe we should make a smart contract to incentivize them to reveal how to make an FPGA for Amoveo
04:08
Deleted Account
This is why it is good to keep the cost to produce veo nearly fixed for an extended period of time
04:08
People don’t need 1000% return in 1 week
D
OK
04:08
O K
@Mandelhoff The GPU software isn't perfect, I could easily 10x my power if we can get the kinks worked out, I can't get more than one GPU to run, and the fans turn on briefly every 10 seconds. Clearly not pumping out the power like it would with ethereum
Z
04:08
Zack
In reply to this message
yes. I think this will be the easiest strategy to get the community behind for now.
MH
04:08
Mandel Hoff
Block rewards should be 1.0 or lower until this miner has competition but we are already at 1.5.
Z
04:09
Deleted Account
I think keeping the reward fixed or reduced until the barriers are gone is a good idea, but then I would want to increase it
MH
04:10
Mandel Hoff
I do. Until this miner has any serious competitors.
04:10
Deleted Account
Yeah
04:10
I agree to that
OK
04:10
O K
Makes sense to me
04:10
Deleted Account
I thought barriers were coming down already with Mandels miner, but apparently not
04:11
Deleted Account
lol, funny hearing the community getting their pitchforks to stop a miner from doing exactly what helps propogate the network
Z
04:11
Zack
ok. I will make a governance oracle to do this. We still have 1000 blocks to change our minds.
OK
04:11
O K
Why don't you share your software zeno
04:11
(kidding)
04:11
Deleted Account
Well reducing reward actually increases the scarcity so that doesn’t stop the miner
RT
04:11
Roger That
This is why a memory hard algo would have been a better starting point.
04:11
Deleted Account
lol lol, my thoughts are that my shitting mining will get even less returns with the reward being lower
04:11
Deleted Account
POW mining for this project was an experiment for me so I either contribute if it makes any sense to do so or I use my awesome new computer for something else. Still up in the air
04:11
Deleted Account
It actually increases the cost per veo to reduce rewards
RT
04:11
Roger That
Evolution of mining is important
OK
04:11
O K
You have to think in terms of total supply here
04:12
Deleted Account
you guys think that its going to get any easier to mine?
OK
04:12
O K
If you're mining at full blast but your % of veo is only getting smaller, you're getting inflated out of existence
04:12
Deleted Account
more people are going to get interested in amoveo, and thats just going to be more competition for blocks
Z
04:12
Deleted Account
I think right now mining rewards are being adjusted to improve distribution
04:12
Deleted Account
thats why I think high rewards are a good thing even with whoever it is dominating the chain
RT
04:13
Roger That
Yeah so vlad’s retweet today is going to bring in quite a few new miners
OK
04:13
O K
Having publicly accessible mining software that is cross platform and cross hardware should be at the top of the list
04:14
Deleted Account
I mean whats the benefit to everyone for distribution to be equaled out when from my understanding the amount of VEO owned doesn't allow for any additional advantage to voting
RT
04:14
Deleted Account
Rewards should reduce towards zero if one miner is dominating or has a monopoly, to discourage that and allow for new technology to catch up and reduce barriers to entry
04:14
Deleted Account
(because from my understanding its not based on voting)
RT
04:14
Roger That
Rather focus needs to be on how more folks can have some veo
Z
RT
04:14
Roger That
Even small amounts. So that they support the infra
04:15
Deleted Account
I think that we're all just upset that we dont have the power to earn a bunch of VEO, but if the shoe was on the other foot the situation would be different
OK
04:15
O K
I'm not upset
RT
04:15
Roger That
In reply to this message
There are ways to make this happen without reducing block reward.
OK
04:16
O K
Do the math on .0001% of bitcoin and tell me you wouldln't be thrilled to have that much
04:16
Deleted Account
Like what
04:16
Oh yeah
RT
04:16
Deleted Account
the barrier of entry you guys are talking about is just that only nvidia gpu's can mine, or that theres a only 2 pools, or what?
04:16
Deleted Account
Well maybe we don’t have enough information right now to make a good decision
04:17
All of the above
04:17
Many people who want to mine, can’t
RT
04:17
Roger That
In reply to this message
Not correct. One entity having more than 50% can create a pump and dump in no time.
04:17
Deleted Account
So this idea of the shoe being on the other foot isn’t quite fair
04:18
Deleted Account
I personally have considered making a pool but I've spent so much time trying to keep my node in sync its made me not want to put the time into managing a pool until things were more stable. (no offense zack)
RT
04:18
Roger That
Community and miners interests are not aligned and won’t be.
04:18
Both are important and so a better balance will help
04:19
Deleted Account
With the point about the people who want to mine but cant, I was getting destroyed by batman from the beginning with my cpu miner
s
04:19
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
i think we've recreated most of the bitcoin miner relations problems that took 9 years to start war... but in 72 hours
04:19
Deleted Account
and a majority of the time I was mining the pool was unstable, meaning the time was wasted while batman destroyed
OK
04:20
O K
And that was an issue of disparity in software not hardware
04:20
Deleted Account
Well I was mining at lot at first too, I have 9 veo
RT
04:20
Roger That
In reply to this message
A cloud based cpu miner farm has less barrier to entry than a similar gpu farm which has a less barrier to entry than asic farm
04:20
Deleted Account
so imo, I'd vote for a whole new chain but with that being said I think we have to be careful what kind of precedent we sent
04:20
Deleted Account
And I’ll mine again when I can use competitive technology
RT
04:21
Deleted Account
Are we going to have the same conversation if asics enter the picture, and someone is mining with them before the rest of the community
RT
04:21
Roger That
I know of other pow coins which so far have avoided this.
04:21
Deleted Account
(like BFL in the early btc days)
RT
04:21
Roger That
In reply to this message
ASICS don’t work in memory hard algo. Nothing other than cpus work.
04:22
Deleted Account
this isn't a memory hard algo
RT
04:22
Roger That
Again, right now the mining balance will turn away users.
04:23
In reply to this message
I know and I am saying much of the problems we have now won’t be there if this was using one such algo
04:23
Deleted Account
Yeah but you can just decrease rewards until distribution is low barrier, then increase it again until some major tech advancements increases barrier again
04:24
Once gpu pool mining is accessible to many, increasing the reward for a period of time is likely to result in a better distribution
04:24
You can do this without hurting early miner ROI too much
RT
04:24
Roger That
In reply to this message
Sounds a little whimsical to me. Also if you force rewards to be lesser less folks will mine and it might die
04:25
Create +ve incentives not -ve
04:25
Always works better
04:25
Deleted Account
Reducing reward is +ve
RT
04:25
Roger That
Not really
04:26
Deleted Account
It results in immediate increase in cost to produce coins, and as a result increase cost to buy a veo
04:26
Increasing miner reward reduces the cost per coin
RT
04:26
Roger That
Or it just drives away some miners
D
04:27
D
Zack why not use a memory hard algo like tromp's cuckoo cycle? The choice of sha256 struck me as odd, because it will lead to centralization (we've seen monopolization) almost immediately as we have seen from bitcoin's history. I think it would level the playing field for participants and give a better distribution to use something more memory-intensive
RT
04:27
Roger That
I will for example won’t mine any more
04:27
Deleted Account
You won’t mine if reward is decreased?
RT
Z
04:28
Zack
In reply to this message
A level playing field was not my goal.
My goal is to minimize the profit margin of the average miner.
I feel that the optimal way to achieve this goal is if we have ASICS made as soon as possible.
SHA256 seemed like the easiest thing we could have ASICS built for.
My goal is to minimize the profit margin of the average miner.
I feel that the optimal way to achieve this goal is if we have ASICS made as soon as possible.
SHA256 seemed like the easiest thing we could have ASICS built for.
RT
04:28
Roger That
In reply to this message
Nopes. I don’t like to mine a week for 0.2 of something. It’s a psychological thing
OK
04:28
O K
you wouldn't mine for a week for .2 btc? crazy.
CB
04:29
CeloStarter Bandits
if 2-3 miners controll supply they will dictate the prices
RT
04:29
Roger That
In reply to this message
Then you are adding hindsight. Today yes I would. 5 years back I won’t
04:29
Deleted Account
honestly, if we got VEO onto an exchange where people could just buy some, the barrier of entry would only require trading for it
OK
04:29
O K
I'm not adding anything, BTC is something
CB
04:29
CeloStarter Bandits
Goverment.. Needs to based on People not 3 Whales playing Monopoly
04:30
After all.. Governance will be more like dictatorship
of 3-4 people over others
of 3-4 people over others
RT
04:30
Roger That
In reply to this message
Most folks won’t run asic. So basically then within 1 yr you will have 10 guys deciding on mining. They can do whatever they want with the chain
04:31
Deleted Account
Yeah I’m not sure asic is a problem, it just feels like one now because nobody is selling. Buying coins instead of mining is typically the way to remove barriers to entry for non technical users. Right now we don’t have that option so he distribution is favoring users that have experience mining
RT
CB
04:31
CeloStarter Bandits
nobody has asic.. Maybe it is better to Airdrop make it POS POW Hybrid
s
04:31
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
just need a genesis block with a wide distribution, and a big distribution relative to block rewards
04:31
and it fixes all the governance issues
OK
CB
04:31
CeloStarter Bandits
yes
04:31
my feeling..
OK
04:31
O K
No air drop
CB
04:32
CeloStarter Bandits
We are about 300 people
s
Z
04:32
Zack
I added the new oracle. it will be ready to close at height 5134. (assuming no one messes with it.)
It is set up to lower the mining reward to 1.0
It is set up to lower the mining reward to 1.0
CB
04:32
CeloStarter Bandits
each 1000 ...
04:32
then Block Reward 1
OK
04:32
O K
greed
CB
04:32
CeloStarter Bandits
this would work
04:32
Deleted Account
So I do tend to favor keeping the reward low until these infrastructure issues are expanded: exchanges, accessibility to mining tools and pool
CB
04:32
CeloStarter Bandits
so no governance,, dictatorship
04:33
of 3-4 people
s
04:33
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
In reply to this message
i think basing on some sort of labor for the project would be more effective
D
04:33
Denis
In reply to this message
Agree, easiest way to save Amoveo from 1-2 monopolists miner is fork to some GPU friendly algo. GPUs are widely distributed, and awerybody can built GPU farm if he want.
OK
04:33
O K
I agree
04:33
GPU
CB
04:33
CeloStarter Bandits
yes.. But if you have 300K VEO distrubuted over 300 Heads
04:34
and 1 Block Award
04:34
you can stabilize the system
04:34
long time
Z
04:34
Deleted Account
I don’t think hash power should be artificially capped to help distribution, it may be good for things like monero but it may not be an effective solution in veo where other solutions already exist
04:35
Distribution should be achieved in other ways, but we do need the infrastructure for that
D
04:35
Denis
In reply to this message
ASIC manufacturers and industrial miners are much more profitable than GPU miners
CB
04:35
CeloStarter Bandits
maybe somebody fork Veo
for the masses and our 3-4 whalea can play monopoly by their own
for the masses and our 3-4 whalea can play monopoly by their own
04:36
Asic will come..
OK
04:36
O K
GPU as miner has accelerated the technology
CB
04:36
CeloStarter Bandits
and then it is game of Mr Jihan
OK
CB
04:36
CeloStarter Bandits
i mean maybe he is mining right now all out
Z
s
s
04:37
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
how does the nakamoto consensus work in the code? is there a doc for that
04:37
?
Z
04:38
Zack
In reply to this message
yes. it is not difficult to launch alt-coins of Amoveo.
Change the version.erl number to protect against replay, and stop the nodes from wasting time talking to each other.
Change the version.erl number to protect against replay, and stop the nodes from wasting time talking to each other.
04:39
In reply to this message
Nakamoto consensus means the consensus algorithm from bitcoin. Like with mining and retargeting and block rewards.
You can look at bitcoin docs to learn about it.
You can look at bitcoin docs to learn about it.
s
04:40
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
In reply to this message
i understand how bitcoin works in that regard, i thought that when you were saying nakamoto consensus you were also referring to ways in which your code dealt with community soft forks to faciliate the split
04:40
Deleted Account
actualy zack
04:40
i would suggest making an algorithm like cryptonote
04:41
monero i think has perfect algo, because it allows for cpu cloud and also gpu mining
04:41
means maximum security imo
OK
04:43
O K
I mean, no one knows the distribution of XMR
04:43
For all we know it's very similar to Veo
04:43
Deleted Account
selling amoveo $1000 each
OK
04:43
O K
noice
04:44
Deleted Account
actually we do
04:44
xmr is half cloud, half gpu basically
D
04:44
D
In reply to this message
I think you have accomplished minimizing the profit margin of the average miner to near 0. Where will your network participants come from? Your miners are the only source at the moment
04:44
Deleted Account
it has perfect balance because of quirks of mass produced chips
04:44
monero algo was very clever
04:45
the cost efficiency for cloud cpu, and also gpu is about same for monero
OK
04:45
O K
No, we don't know who holds how much XMR
04:45
Deleted Account
oh ok
OK
04:45
O K
At the Hard Shibe rate, Amoveo is growing at $2,000,000 per day
MF
04:46
Mr Flintstone
what has been the strongest gpu for mining veo so far?
OK
04:46
O K
Only Nvidia can be used, presumably the most powerful Nvidia card would yield the highest hashrate
MF
04:46
Mr Flintstone
I assume it’ll be gpus for a while until ASIC
D
04:47
D
In reply to this message
1080 it seems, but good luck. amoveopool is not getting many block solves so the pickings are slim
OK
04:48
O K
How many of you have more than one GPU on Mandel's pool
04:49
Deleted Account
what is current block time
04:49
lucky bastards who got in the first 24 hours ugh
D
Z
04:50
Zack
about 3 minutes
D
04:51
Denis
In reply to this message
Hardware race = monopoly is evident. Creator of best ASIC can easilly bancrupt competitors, because development cost for best hardware ~ development cost for slower, but nobody will buy slower ASIC. Bitmain become monopolist. When one company controls 90% mining hardware market it never loses money, because it can dictate price, and make 10x+ profits when market grows.
Z
04:52
Zack
In reply to this message
If there were over-charging by as much as you say, then someone would undercut them.
There is no law blocking others from competing.
Since no one undercuts them, it seems to me that they are charging the correct price.
There is no law blocking others from competing.
Since no one undercuts them, it seems to me that they are charging the correct price.
MF
04:55
Mr Flintstone
is anyone still cpu mining?
04:55
Deleted Account
Yeah we should let miners be the most efficient possible, however we need to develop other ways to distribute coins to more people who aren’t miners. Assurance contracts, exchanges to buy and sell, those are probably needed to help distribution from being miner centric
MF
04:55
Mr Flintstone
if so, what hash rate are you mining at?
04:56
Deleted Account
Systems like monero have the same problem as asic, where the asic just becomes a botnet
04:57
Deleted Account
yeah botnets are probably safer
04:57
Deleted Account
Are they
04:57
Deleted Account
because asics can be confiscated, or banned like in china
04:57
botnets are already illegal and much more decentralized
04:57
so less subject to govenrment control
04:57
Deleted Account
If you run a botnet that gets 70% of the hash it’s the same as an asic farm
04:58
Deleted Account
yeah well i guess the centralization is the same then
04:58
Deleted Account
Yeah maybe that could be true
04:58
Deleted Account
but i think its more resistant to government
Z
04:58
Zack
the profit margin of running a botnet is too high. Profit margin of ASICS is lower.
OK
04:58
O K
Why does profit margin concern you at all, though?
Z
04:58
Zack
resistance to government is not what we are trying to optimize for in mining.
We are trying to optimize for the smallest profit margin.
We are trying to optimize for the smallest profit margin.
OK
04:59
O K
Why are we optimizing for that, profit margin disappears naturally over time in markets
Z
04:59
Zack
The profit margin of the miner is economically equivalent to counterfeiting. It hurts everyone who holds tokens.
04:59
Deleted Account
yeah ive been in the mining space for a while, i actually mined 10% of all eth in the first 3 days
04:59
but i sold early lol
04:59
i think profit margin is not the best to go on, it disappear
04:59
and asic give advantage to coders first
04:59
rather than those who want to invest the most
OK
05:00
O K
In reply to this message
Is there an academic work that you can point to that claims this? It's more of an entrepreneurial risk-reward
05:00
Miner profits aren't guaranteed, the success of a coin is not guaranteed
05:00
Deleted Account
That’s why we need assurance contacts going, so that non-miner contributors can earn as well
D
05:00
Denis
In reply to this message
They had years of evolution and they won. Now no one can compete with them, because you can't create competitive ASIC from scrach regardless of how much you invest. It'll be more profitable just to buy their shares than try to compete with them from 0 point. It's like you can't build company making CPU better than Intel, regardless of how much you'll invest. Because Intel had years of competitive evolution and won that race.
MF
05:00
Mr Flintstone
@zack you mean seigniorage?
05:01
Deleted Account
You can’t really have non professional miners trying to earn that way, they should spend their time doing what they are good at, but they do need a way to be compensated
05:01
So we have that capability we just need better tools and guides for using them
D
05:02
D
In reply to this message
I think you have the wrong idea. You have created an inflating currency. Miners are participating in securing the network to be the recipients of that inflation. If there were no inflation or it happened outside of the bounds that the chain governs, then sure it would be counterfeit. Nobody is being hurt by voluntarily participating in that system so where does miner profit cause any harm?
OK
05:02
O K
I think you should carry the analogy Zack to Gold and Silver miners at certain points throughout history
05:02
Minters with the largest profit margin were not counterfeiting, they were minting
05:03
As more minters came into the marketplace the profit margin shrunk
05:03
I'm envisioning a perfect world here and not meaning to get into discussions about reserve and debasement
05:03
The first minters were rewarded for taking the risk of making productive tools to mint with
05:04
An entrepreneurial venture
Z
05:04
Zack
In reply to this message
This is only true as long as they do not over-charge.
If they decide to take advantage of their monopolist position and over-charge, then it would be possible to undercut them.
If you think I am wrong, consider the alternative. Why wouldn't they charge so much for ASIC, that it is only 1% better than GPU?
If they decide to take advantage of their monopolist position and over-charge, then it would be possible to undercut them.
If you think I am wrong, consider the alternative. Why wouldn't they charge so much for ASIC, that it is only 1% better than GPU?
s
05:05
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
when govts print money to pay people
OK
05:07
O K
In reply to this message
same economic impact as counterfeiting, the only difference being who benefits at the expense of whom
Z
05:07
Zack
There is no free lunch in this world.
If the miner is making a marginal profit, then that value must be coming from depreciation in the value of Veo.
If the miner is making a marginal profit, then that value must be coming from depreciation in the value of Veo.
OK
05:08
I just want to be clear
05:09
Money is no different than any other commodity, besides that it's the commonly accepted medium of exchange, you have to take the same logic and put it toward a gold mine and minter, and to BIC when they make additional pens.
Z
05:15
Zack
Looking at the extreme example to make the problem more obvious: if the minter could charge twice as much for a gold coin as it costs to produce.
Then this means the minter would own 1/2 of the gold coins produced.
This sort of distribution of currency is practically centralized. it is not such a great kind of money. We do not know when the minters will spend their gold.
When they do spend their half of the gold, it will make our half worth less.
Then this means the minter would own 1/2 of the gold coins produced.
This sort of distribution of currency is practically centralized. it is not such a great kind of money. We do not know when the minters will spend their gold.
When they do spend their half of the gold, it will make our half worth less.
OK
05:16
O K
In reply to this message
If the minter charged so much, another minter would step in to undercut him, as in your own example about bitmain and ASICS 🙂
05:17
"If there were over-charging by as much as you say, then someone would undercut them.
There is no law blocking others from competing.
Since no one undercuts them, it seems to me that they are charging the correct price."
There is no law blocking others from competing.
Since no one undercuts them, it seems to me that they are charging the correct price."
05:17
🙂
05:17
These same phenomena happen in mining
Z
05:17
Zack
with ASICS it is possible to undercut, yes.
With Botnets, it is not so easy to undercut.
Some people have a massive skill advantage at making botnets. they are millions of times better than average people.
With Botnets, it is not so easy to undercut.
Some people have a massive skill advantage at making botnets. they are millions of times better than average people.
05:20
If minting of Veo was widely distributed, then it would be done by people with a variety of profit margins.
If minting of Veo has a small profit margin, then it would be done by a small group of people from similar environments and with similar skill sets.
The goal of being "fairly distributed" is often contradictory with the goal of a "small profit margin".
If minting of Veo has a small profit margin, then it would be done by a small group of people from similar environments and with similar skill sets.
The goal of being "fairly distributed" is often contradictory with the goal of a "small profit margin".
D
05:22
Denis
In reply to this message
If they manufacturing 95% of mining hardware, they basically get control over emission. Control over emission in one hards = economic dictatorship. Miners buys their hardware not because it really good, but because it's only way to make profit with mining.
OK
05:22
O K
My whole point is that it's not your job to decide the profit margins
05:22
and to what end anyway, why is that an end at all?
05:23
Deleted Account
equilibrium is reached when costs to produce are similar
D
05:23
D
In reply to this message
That's why he made the values tweakable by the community. The issue is the community is made up of very few members and the barrier to entry is alienating even more
Z
05:23
Zack
It seems to me that Amoveo will be a better investment if we lose less value from inflation caused by printing free money and giving it out to miners.
OK
05:24
O K
It isn't free, they secure the network, no?
Z
05:24
Zack
any money they get paid above the cost of the work they do is free.
OK
05:24
O K
It's a reward for the risk they took securing your network
05:24
not free
Z
05:25
Zack
right. any money above (the cost of the work they do + the cost of the risk they took) is free.
OK
05:25
O K
they could have been securing BTC's network, at less risk
05:25
Deleted Account
yeah, server costs + time
OK
05:25
O K
In reply to this message
I'm not sure that there's anything left at that point, the cost of the risk they took is the difference
05:25
Deleted Account
if they choose to continue to hold VEO instead of selling immediately, it is an ivnestment and can have more ROI
05:26
so there is no risk difference between BTC and VEO, even right now, for miners
05:26
there is only a risk difference between investing
OK
05:26
O K
My ultimate point is that even if there is an absurd profit margin, that margin will dissappear rapidly in this space
05:26
very rapidly
Z
05:26
Zack
For example: if I go around and find people who promise they wont sell Veo for at least 2 years, and we print lots of Veo and give it to them.
I think this would be bad for the price of Veo.
I think this would be bad for the price of Veo.
05:26
Deleted Account
investing is a separate profession from mining
OK
05:27
O K
We don't print veo at all, we mine and mint it
05:27
Deleted Account
increasing mining rewards or other VEO generating rewards is always bad for investors
OK
05:27
O K
trying to engineer a low profit margin is like trying to centrally plan
05:27
But at any rate I admit your point about botnets is good
05:27
Deleted Account
it is good for miners, temporarily, until new equilibrium is reached
s
OK
05:28
O K
But I tend to be in favor of GPUs as the commoner's miner
05:28
Deleted Account
couldn't you put the veo in a smart contract that wont vest for 2 years?
s
05:28
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
if you give it to just anyone, maybe, but if you give it to the people who want to build amoveo, then it would be very positive for price
05:28
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
This may not be completely true, as the ability to change the miner reward can be seen as printing rate
D
05:28
Denis
In reply to this message
There's always 'free' money in inflationary systems. Emission is ok, it stimulates economic activity. But monopoly over emission is bad, it causes growth of inequality.
Z
05:28
Zack
In reply to this message
Well, if we can't agree on the relationship between supply and demand, I don't think conversation will help.
s
05:29
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
did you see next comment?
05:29
in a vacuum of course you are correct, assuming you meant supply and price, of course
05:30
Deleted Account
printing VEO to give to contributors is related to the assurance contracts (implemented differently than printing), so that should be viewed as positive
s
05:30
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
but the relationship between using the token supply, incentivizing ppeople to build, creating utility to create demand, is also real
Z
05:31
Zack
assurance contracts don't print Veo.
Just like crowdfunding doesn't counterfeit dollars.
Just like crowdfunding doesn't counterfeit dollars.
05:31
Deleted Account
yeah i edited
05:31
what i mean was, the idea of printing VEO to give to contributors is effectively the same outcome as the assurance contracts
05:31
you are rewarding contributors with coins if they do something
Z
05:31
Zack
no. the assurance contract doesn't pay you until you have already delivered the public good.
05:32
I agree that paying miners for the work they do is good.
What we want to avoid is printing excess free money above the cost of the work they did.
What we want to avoid is printing excess free money above the cost of the work they did.
05:32
Deleted Account
but in our scenario we were saying the coins would be locked for 2 years, so thats the same outcome
Z
05:32
Zack
printing money in 2 years is bad just like printing money now is bad.
05:33
Deleted Account
then we would never want to increase the rewards, as that is effectively printing money
Z
05:35
feel free to show the steps on how you got there.
05:37
Deleted Account
I'll clarify. If you have a reward of 1 for some period of time, and then icnrease it to 2, all the prior rewards are cut in half, which is in some way similar to printing money to pay new creators. The prior generator of creators earned money that is exepect to be less valuable than it otherwise would have been. So the present value of all coins declines immediately when a reward is increased. If the present value declines immediately by, say, 10%, that has the same effect as immediately printing 10% supply and not changing the reward
Z
05:38
Zack
oh, I see the flaw.
See, we can afford to increase the reward to 2, as long as the amount of work done per reward is double.
Like, if I buy twice as much bread, I have to pay twice as much money. This is not printing new money.
See, we can afford to increase the reward to 2, as long as the amount of work done per reward is double.
Like, if I buy twice as much bread, I have to pay twice as much money. This is not printing new money.
05:39
buying twice as much bread doesn't change the marginal profit rate for the bakery.
05:39
because they did twice as much work to make twice as much bread.
05:41
Deleted Account
But then why are we betting to decline the reward instead of continuing to increase it to align with work being done?
Z
05:42
Zack
In reply to this message
The amount of work to create a single hash is decreasing. The risk is decreasing too, as the network becomes more stable.
OK
05:43
O K
Having a profit margin for miners that is too high is a temporary problem that can resolve itself quickly with market forces, having a mining network that is too centralized (and I do not mean BTC, I mean a fledgling currency) can have permanent impacts, so to some extent decentralization is a means to the end of not having the network hijacked completely, right?
s
05:43
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
why are we focused on the profit margins of miners? if a miners sells a VEO for $4 and wires $3 to AWS, or sells a VEO and wires $1 to AWS. what difference does it make to anything?
Z
05:44
Zack
The community has a certain mining capacity, and if we pay above this capacity, they won't be able to increase the amount of work done any further. So it will all be profit.
s
05:44
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
AWS is just keeping the money, regardless of how much is sent. there is no functional security being provided at this point
05:44
Deleted Account
more proof of work makes it more expensive to change the history
Z
05:45
Zack
In reply to this message
If the miner has 90% profit margin, then they can keep 90% of the Veo they mined. That would be a centralized situation.
MH
05:45
Mandel Hoff
Gpu update incoming! My 2gpu box went from 44mhs to 33mhs! Might fix the multi-gpu boxes people are reporting have trouble.
Z
MH
05:45
Mandel Hoff
Ha! yes, 44mhs to 330mhs.
OK
05:45
O K
YESSSSSS
05:46
Are you pushing this now?
Z
05:46
Zack
Awesome!
Mandel saves the day again
Mandel saves the day again
05:46
Deleted Account
i crashed when trying to run the miner earlier, i wonder if the update iwll fix that for me
MH
05:46
Mandel Hoff
soon, building and making zip.
OK
05:46
O K
Mandel is going to be a kingpin whale in 2 years I'm calling it now
MH
05:46
Mandel Hoff
freaking was a 1 line change.
A
05:47
Asmodat | KIRA Staking | WON'T PM YOU FIRST
You guys thought about killing that old consensus and going for something environmentally friendly?
OK
05:47
O K
You're mistaken that PoW is not environmentally friendly
05:48
The articles you are reading about power consumption are failing to account for power consumption of status quo banking institutions
s
05:48
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
In reply to this message
i dont think that is how miners make decisions in practice tho. selling your tokens to be breakeven is just a mental bias
A
OK
05:48
O K
I just explained why
A
05:49
Asmodat | KIRA Staking | WON'T PM YOU FIRST
Sorry wasn't sure if serous
05:49
Deleted Account
mandel do you plan to release a linux version
M
A
05:51
Asmodat | KIRA Staking | WON'T PM YOU FIRST
What are the chances amoveo will have schnorr sigs?
05:51
Let's say within 12 months
05:52
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Seems like your goal is to create uncollateralized stable coin, or am I reading this wrong?
MH
05:54
Mandel Hoff
Ooo. I f'd up my github repo. Delayed a few minutes
Z
05:57
Zack
In reply to this message
The stable coins on amoveo are made by combining financial derivatives into synthetic assets. This is done in in the programmable state channels.
05:58
We already have a smart contract for trading derivatives in markets with single price batches
06:01
Deleted Account
I meant is it your goal for VEO?
OK
06:02
O K
It was up for a second Mandel but it's all gone now
06:03
Z
06:05
Zack
In reply to this message
I think we should optimize Veo to increase in market cap quickly. That way there will be more money available to use to participate in markets.
At least, I think that should be our goal for now.
At least, I think that should be our goal for now.
06:05
Lots of Amoveo info here: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
Zack pinned this message
MH
06:07
Mandel Hoff
It's available. Please try this. Works great for my 2 gpu box:
M
06:08
Minieep21
About 4x so far!
MH
06:09
Mandel Hoff
👍
06:09
Deleted Account
dang still crashing when connected
OK
06:10
O K
Now we're cooking mandel!!!!!!
06:10
🌈
MF
06:10
Mr Flintstone
is the ubuntu miner working?
MH
06:11
Mandel Hoff
Pool fee going up to 2.9%. I get a raise for the 4-10x boost. 🙈
OK
06:11
O K
Good!
06:11
No crashes here! 👍
06:12
To be clear, we don't need to manage our own fans right?
06:12
06:12
Because they still don't ramp up like I'm used to with Eth mining
06:14
They're on, they're just not whirring like I'd expect
06:16
And also @Mandelhoff when you get a moment will you please take a second peak at the Wallet Bookmarks feature? I still can't get my wallet address to convert to URL properly
M
06:17
Minieep21
Hmm, pump seemed to be at the start. hashing has come down to previous levels on my 1080ti :/
OK
06:17
O K
There are slashes in my public key
06:18
Deleted Account
i seem to be missing AmoveoMinerGpuCuda.pdb symbols, how do i fix that
MF
MH
06:21
Mandel Hoff
I deleted the release - I'm bad with github today.
06:22
Speeds probably don't change much. Just hopefully fixes all the multi-gpu people's problems. Maybe... hopefully. Fixed my 2 gpu box great.
G
06:25
Gonzalo
Mandel windows version is missing the compiled exe
OK
06:28
O K
I'm having inconsistent results with identical gpus
06:31
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Where to see in the log how many gpus are recognized? i only see a global mgh and it looks very poor to be the sum
MH
06:33
Mandel Hoff
Release is updated here:
https://github.com/Mandelhoff/AmoveoMinerGpuCuda/releases/tag/1.0.0.1
Still runs one gpu per command line process you kick off, so set your device Id if you have multiple gpu's.
https://github.com/Mandelhoff/AmoveoMinerGpuCuda/releases/tag/1.0.0.1
Still runs one gpu per command line process you kick off, so set your device Id if you have multiple gpu's.
06:34
This probably doesn't help single gpu boxes at all. I'm still at 133mhs with k80 and 83 with 750ti. My box with 1050 and 1060 went up tons: 44mhs total to 330mhs total.
G
06:35
Gonzalo
Great Mandel, good job!
MH
06:36
Mandel Hoff
Thank you! Victor reported it's helping his 7 gpu system. This is exciting.
06:36
Deleted Account
@Mandelhoff btw GPU mining is working after updating CUDA to 9.1.85
I get 150x more h/s, but oddly only 2.5x more S/H
I get 150x more h/s, but oddly only 2.5x more S/H
MH
06:37
Mandel Hoff
s/h adjusts dynamic. My pool hands out a dynamic share difficulty hoping to receive X shares from you per Y seconds so the pool can estimate a trusted amount of work you are doing.
06:38
Main-stream pools with stratum do pretty much the same thing by adjusting your share diff up and down.
06:38
I'm glad you got it working. 👍
06:38
Deleted Account
Ah makes sense, but sounds like I could be doing more work considering the expenditure
06:39
Prob some vars to tweak there (but sounds like they arent exposed)
MH
06:39
Mandel Hoff
The amount of veo you get paid is weighted by your difficulty score. My pool is probably giving you much higher diff targets now if you are getting 150x more h/s.
SS
06:40
S S
What's the block height now?
MH
06:40
Deleted Account
@Mandelhoff oh ok, so the reward will take into account my total h/s. awesome 👍
SS
06:41
S S
I'm at 4170 sync seems to be working better today
MF
06:41
Mr Flintstone
what was the last block your pool found?
MH
MF
06:41
Mr Flintstone
Is bgdx zacks pool?
MH
06:44
Mandel Hoff
Yes
MF
06:45
Mr Flintstone
do you have a rough idea of its hash rate?
MH
06:48
Mandel Hoff
Not really. Maybe 15ghs
06:49
Nevermind. Probably much higher.
G
06:52
Greg
In reply to this message
did the same thing at the same time, got like 7 VEO 🙂
now lets see what happens with real GPU mining.
now lets see what happens with real GPU mining.
06:55
Deleted Account
has the pool for gpu mining been stable for people?
Z
06:57
Zack
I think I fixed the
It was a race condition between block_absorber and tx_pool_feeder.
potential block died! bug that was crashing our nodes.It was a race condition between block_absorber and tx_pool_feeder.
MH
06:57
Mandel Hoff
Yes pool works great when block time isn't so fast it crashes the core amoveo node.
06:57
Deleted Account
this will be a silly question. i am very new to mining and the tech behind all of this, so please excuse ignorance. for the http://amoveopool.com/miner browser miner does the value in Unpaid Balance correspond to your contribution and if so when exactly does it get paid out
MH
06:57
Mandel Hoff
No pool outages since block diff changed at 4k
Z
MH
06:58
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
Sounds good. God help us if block times are sub minute again though. 🔥
07:01
In reply to this message
Oooo... I forgot we have a browser miner. Payouts are at 1 veo. That will probably get dropped significant in the next week.
07:02
Deleted Account
Thank you Mandel. I dont currently have enough time on my hands to get fully educated on what all of you are doing regards to mining but this seems like a great project based on all that I do understand so far about it
07:03
can anyone point a newbie into the right place to learn about mining tech?
07:03
would be greatly appreciated
07:03
i have some comp sci knowledge but mostly on the software development side
07:03
less so on the hardware
Z
07:04
Zack
There are some big opportunities to make software improvements to the miners
07:05
Deleted Account
I am sure that is true. Unfortunately i currently have a lot of life obligations that prevent me from dwelving too much into things
SS
07:05
S S
Is the hash rate somewhere around 3.29/s
07:07
I just wrote an API to calculate the average hash rate
OK
SS
07:07
S S
Don't know if the values are right
OK
MH
07:11
Mandel Hoff
My 2 gpu box's fans seem to be adjusting automatically. I don't have anything in the code to control that sort of thing at all. Sorry, no ideas on controlling fans at this time.
OK
07:13
O K
I don't think mine hit 40%
07:13
they should be up around 70-80%
RT
07:15
Can you please check what’s going on?
07:16
Address ends with x+ki6k=
Z
07:25
Zack
Too many people are using my pool. not enough use Mandel's. He is never finding blocks.
So I am increasing my fee to 20%.
So I am increasing my fee to 20%.
G
Z
07:26
Zack
I have to pay for all this bandwidth
MF
07:26
Mr Flintstone
@zack thank u
G
07:28
Greg
In reply to this message
thank you for the great job! yes it works much better for multiple GPU systems. but with a small processor like Intel Celerons, the CPU load is almost 100% for 2 cards on my 3 cards system. Not wasted because one of the card can mine another coin like BTCP but still, I guess there is room for optimization.
some personal benchmarks:
nvidia 1060: 200 MH/s
nvidia 1070 : 300MH/s
3 * 1060 with Celeron: 400MH/s (1 useless card) -> 230W
3 * 1070 with latest i5: 900MH/s -> 495W measured
some personal benchmarks:
nvidia 1060: 200 MH/s
nvidia 1070 : 300MH/s
3 * 1060 with Celeron: 400MH/s (1 useless card) -> 230W
3 * 1070 with latest i5: 900MH/s -> 495W measured
MH
07:32
Mandel Hoff
👍
Z
07:32
Zack
$17 per Veo.
G
07:35
bids
07:37
Deleted Account
whats the current network MH/s estimate
M
G
M
07:38
Minieep21
Are you watching hash rate display on pool?
Z
M
07:39
Deleted Account
dang it increased a lot since last night
G
07:41
Greg
In reply to this message
Mandel's miner only works with one card so you need to start each miner with 'device-id' argument (and you can debug which card is running with nvidia-smi or msi afterburner) the problem is that it's using a lot of CPU so with low-end processors, you can't mine with more than 2 cards.
MH
07:42
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
I do see this. The pool made a spend tx on 4196, but it looks like it was lost. It's set as unconfirmed in my database, so a repayment should be sent around block 4223.
07:42
Deleted Account
i think were getting runaway price increases
M
07:43
Minieep21
In reply to this message
I'm just confused as to where the real hashrate is displayed. the miner appears to show my 1080ti with 200-250 MH/s whilst the pool hashrate fluctuates violently.
This really confuses me considering your benchmark of 200 MH/s with a 1060
This really confuses me considering your benchmark of 200 MH/s with a 1060
MH
07:44
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
When block times go up, I will reduce the number of blocks to wait before re-payouts.
G
07:45
Greg
In reply to this message
you should be getting more than 400MH/s with your 1080 TI. the hashrate is displayed every second or so in the console. hashrate on the pool is fluctuating too much to be reliable
OK
07:45
O K
How is it displayed in the console
07:46
Sorry I realize this sounds dumb but my cards are giving such weird output I want to be sure
G
OK
07:46
O K
h/s
07:46
/1000 = Mh/s
07:46
?
07:47
what is S/H
G
07:47
/1000000 = Mh/s
OK
07:47
O K
right right, sorry
M
OK
07:47
O K
thank you
M
07:47
Minieep21
Console is stuck at 200 most of the time.
OK
07:48
O K
I'm not getting that on my 1080s
07:48
I'm in the 2s
07:48
What is S/H
G
OK
07:49
O K
Very strange
07:49
Right after the update my S/H was in 300s for one card, 200s for next card, under 100 for next card
G
OK
07:49
O K
so I started all of them over
07:49
then they were all under 100
07:49
and all cards, the hash rate is similar, and sub par
07:50
I'm happy they are all running for sure
07:50
it's an improvement
M
G
M
OK
I
08:03
Iridescence
Hello, I have released my CUDA miner for ubuntu
08:03
Please give it a test
08:04
Deleted Account
ill try it out
I
08:04
Iridescence
The first few people to test on my mining pool and debug with me will receive the performance upgrade for FREE
08:05
Deleted Account
lol
I
08:07
Iridescence
@Ryan
08:07
@Ryan let me know what the perftest gives you
08:12
Deleted Account
actually might not be able to test since im using linux in a vm
08:12
im looking for a cloud gpu i can use
J
08:13
Jim
Sure, I have a 1080 to test
08:14
Oops, windows only
DG
08:14
David G.
1080 Vs ti?
MF
08:15
Mr Flintstone
@Ryan I’m looking as well
I
08:15
Iridescence
ok no problem
08:16
curl is also a dependency, I will update it
08:16
yeah I will
08:18
actually I'm curious if it will run on a VM
08:18
so you can tryt
MF
08:20
Mr Flintstone
@Iridescence do you think you can use Coriander (https://github.com/hughperkins/coriander) to mine w/ this on an opencl gpu?
J
08:21
Jim
Ok, setting up. Is the pool address set by default?
I
08:21
Iridescence
yes it is set to my pool
08:21
you can set it to Zack's pool if you want
08:21
my pool takes 1% fee
08:22
If you can, mine a bit to my pool first - I want to debug
08:22
You can set it to Zack's pool later if you like him better XD
08:23
@Jbreezy0 maybe - I will take a look at it later
G
08:23
Greg
How could we fork the mining algo to prevent FPGA from ruining decentralisation? maybe it could be a good way to test the governance system but I think people would need how-tos and/or web UI to make things easier. Or is the governance achieved by hashrate power, so basically Zack's pool?
MF
08:23
Mr Flintstone
@Iridescence if so, maybe we could have a shittier version for openCL, but I think it would probs be better than cpu mining
G
08:26
Greg
It's good to have good CPU/GPU miners but if we can't even mine some VEO with them because of FPGA, it makes the whole blockchain at risk.
08:28
Deleted Account
how can i cheack my bslance,i click cheackbalance button on light wallet,but it not work.
Z
08:28
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/design/governance.md
Amoveo governance can only change the variable on this list.
Amoveo governance can only change the variable on this list.
08:28
Deleted Account
P
08:28
Pan
Prevent FPGA/ASIC is not good, cpu mining is bad and easy for hack and lead to increasing cpu price.
I
Z
08:30
Deleted Account
this is
G
08:30
Greg
In reply to this message
I already read that, it explains "what" variable governance can change but there is no explanation on "when", "who", "where".
08:30
Deleted Account
P
08:38
Pan
some body create ASIC by miney and contribute the Amoveo for money, which could clearly prevent they to keep kindly to Amoveo.
Also, AMD&Intel made a lot of cpu, but the CPU users are large distributed.
Same for long run of mining, in future mature market, ASIC miners will be distributed in each country.
Also, AMD&Intel made a lot of cpu, but the CPU users are large distributed.
Same for long run of mining, in future mature market, ASIC miners will be distributed in each country.
Z
I
Z
08:39
Zack
In reply to this message
can you copy paste it into the chat so that I can try looking up your address in my node?
try looking up your balance in this one: http://159.89.106.253:8080/explorer.html
try looking up your balance in this one: http://159.89.106.253:8080/explorer.html
08:41
I added functions to the Amoveo full node so you can estimate how fast blocks are happening, and you can estimate the current total network hashrate https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/api/commands_mining.md
08:44
110 seconds per block
731 gh/s
731 gh/s
08:46
i mined a night,but nothing get
08:46
I
08:48
Iridescence
you need GPUs to mine now
08:49
Deleted Account
😭
OK
08:49
Thanks for making it
I
08:49
Iridescence
ok, let me know how it goes
OK
08:49
O K
Is it Nvidia only
I
08:50
Iridescence
yes
OK
08:50
O K
10-4
I
08:50
Iridescence
since it is in CUDA
08:50
CUDA only works for NVIDIA
Z
08:53
Zack
$20.50 for a Veo
08:58
Deleted Account
😭
P
09:07
Pan
That is the total supply of Amoveo? Is it fixed?
Z
09:07
Zack
In reply to this message
The block reward is set by the governance mechanism. The community can change the size of the block reward at any time.
P
Stefan Prieschl joined group by link from Group
Zumwalt joined group by link from Group
SP
09:25
Stefan Prieschl
is there a miner which doesn't stress the cpu so hard ?
09:28
Deleted Account
Stefan, change the number of threads to better fit your cpu
MF
09:37
Mr Flintstone
willing to buy veo @ 0.0025 btc
Z
09:39
Zack
$28 per veo
09:42
Deleted Account
actually can we build a Dapp on Amoveo?Like a gambling game?
Z
09:43
Zack
In reply to this message
There is already a market for binary options. It uses single price batches.
We also have lightning payments.
Yes, you could make a gambling game.
We also have lightning payments.
Yes, you could make a gambling game.
09:43
It has Turing complete smart contracts. So you can program many different types of games
09:45
Deleted Account
is that build a FPGA easy and cheap
jz joined group by link from Group
OK
10:09
O K
I was thinking some more about what you were saying about miner profit margin gap. it's interesting to think about, I'm going to need to sleep on it. But something else I realized is that even botnet computing power is not "free" because there is an opportunity cost. Botnets had other red market value before crypto mining.
RT
Brian Brian joined group by link from Group
MH
10:12
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
Following up on this. Payment reprocessing is working. I had to send one payout 14 times for it to stick in a block during that 2k to 4k block madness. Your first reprocess attempt failed, so it should be trying again and again until the tx doesn't get lost.
BB
10:28
Brian Brian
anyone know why I can't run a node? there is not error output but when I do a make prod-go it doesn't seem to work and just does nothing
10:28
and make prod-attach says there is no node running
10:29
Deleted Account
Basket, do a
ps aux|grep amoveo and verify you dont already have some zombie process
BB
10:30
Brian Brian
I have an epmd -daemon running
10:30
have tried doing a make prod-restart but it does the same
10:30
is there somewhere logs might be getting put?
MH
10:31
Mandel Hoff
I did some fpga research. They aren't cheap. I think fpga would be roughly only 4x more cost effective than a budget card like a gtx 1050. That means whoever is is lead-dog mining probably has $250k+ in hardware running on Amoveo right now (ignoring power costs).
10:31
Deleted Account
current ne thashrate?
10:31
Deleted Account
kill the epmd daemon and try again
BB
10:31
Brian Brian
same problem
10:32
Deleted Account
after killing it did you prod-go?
BB
10:32
Brian Brian
yeah and it did the same no output thing
MF
10:32
Mr Flintstone
how hard is it to install visual studio 2015 and CUDA 9.1 from command line in windows?
10:32
I have very little experience w/ windows
10:32
Deleted Account
you wont get output until you attach
10:32
and even then you still need to start synching with sync:start().
10:33
(dont forget the ".")
MH
10:33
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
Not sure. I've always used the GUI - it has a UI and you click next-next-next-next a bunch.
BB
10:33
Brian Brian
~/Projects/amoveo/amoveo$ make prod-attach
Node is not running!
Makefile:144: recipe for target 'attach' failed
make: *** [attach] Error 1
Node is not running!
Makefile:144: recipe for target 'attach' failed
make: *** [attach] Error 1
10:34
Deleted Account
did you make prod-build before any of the rest of this?
BB
10:34
Brian Brian
yep
10:34
and i don't think there was any errors
MH
RT
MF
10:37
Mr Flintstone
total hash rate is 731 gh/s now?
MH
10:38
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
Yes, zack report this earlier. I think it's pretty accurate.
MF
10:38
Mr Flintstone
Wow
MH
10:41
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
<- This in case you want to check it. Zack added it to the core functionality.
MF
10:43
Mr Flintstone
can you use visual studio 2017?
MH
MF
10:44
Mr Flintstone
hmm
10:45
having trouble finding a 2015 version
MH
MF
10:46
Mr Flintstone
Nvm
10:46
Thanks
MH
10:47
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
I agree, but I feel l horrible about mining against someone who has 250k$ hardware competing. It makes the veo value "feel" higher - sort of.
10:48
In reply to this message
Yes, but the solo miner on zack's pool is still a very high % of the whole network.
10:48
My pool has averaged ~5% of all blocks.
10:49
since the diff change at 4k
10:49
Deleted Account
@Iridescence got your gpu miner working and am mining to your pool. Sent you a PM regarding the performance tweak
MF
10:49
Mr Flintstone
that link didn’t work
10:50
But I found it at another link
MH
10:50
Mandel Hoff
👍 Please share the link.
10:51
Good night all. Good luck hashing.
MF
10:51
Mr Flintstone
please note that it will immediately start downloading upon pressing it
10:51
it’s an answer here
10:59
Deleted Account
just one
11:00
Deleted Account
ok me too
11:01
i have dual gpu so messing with it still. 1 gpu at really low hash rate like 29 Mh/s for gtx 1050
11:02
i think should be more like 145 Mh/s
11:04
@occamsblade how’s your hash rate. what you’re gpu is supposed to get or low?
11:07
Deleted Account
I have several 1070ti and one 1080ti
11:07
i'll try the gpu miner later
11:07
Deleted Account
@Iridescence Testing your miner, works fine.
It uses only one GPU, so to use both GPU cards, I did this.
1) Edit last line of build_ubuntu.sh
CUDA_VISIBLE_DEVICES=$1 erl
2) In separate terminals, run this
sh build_ubuntu.sh 0
sh build_ubuntu.sh 1
3) run nvidia-smi to confirm two miners use separate GPUs
It uses only one GPU, so to use both GPU cards, I did this.
1) Edit last line of build_ubuntu.sh
CUDA_VISIBLE_DEVICES=$1 erl
2) In separate terminals, run this
sh build_ubuntu.sh 0
sh build_ubuntu.sh 1
3) run nvidia-smi to confirm two miners use separate GPUs
11:07
Deleted Account
i am now instaling studio 2015
11:09
Deleted Account
which ones are needed ?
11:09
11:10
11:10
11:11
Deleted Account
@Iridescence So, the performance report I showed you yesterday (GTX 1080Ti * 2) seems to be based on single GPU, not two GPUs.
11:13
Deleted Account
how many hashrates did u get with single 080ti
11:13
1080ti
11:14
Deleted Account
230Mh/s
11:14
Deleted Account
wow
DG
11:15
David G.
wait, would the 1080 be different from the arosus
11:15
egpu
11:15
ti vs gtx
11:15
I still remember my 6800gts
11:15
Deleted Account
1080ti is different from 1080
DG
11:15
David G.
of course
11:15
Deleted Account
yeah
DG
11:15
David G.
brb gotta google
11:16
Deleted Account
got 2 gpu to work
11:16
cool
11:17
Deleted Account
Someone knows how many hashes are needed to get one block on average right now?
I
11:20
Iridescence
just got back
11:20
I will go through the feedback
11:20
lots
11:21
Deleted Account
11:21
1080ti
11:21
11:22
I am testing with Mandelhoff's gpu miner ;AmoveoMinerGpuCuda Windows 1.0.0.1
11:26
running on win10
11:27
Deleted Account
Figured out. For 460Mh/s, it still takes 48 hours to get a block. Wow.
11:27
Deleted Account
amoveo is using SHA-256 hasing algorithm right
MF
11:36
Mr Flintstone
similar
11:36
but not the exact same
11:36
damn did visual studio 2015 community edition take forever for anyone else to install?
11:37
Deleted Account
just wait till you have to install cpprestsdk 😄
11:38
Deleted Account
With gpu mining I went from 6 Mh/s to 60 Mh/s. better than nothing
MF
11:38
Mr Flintstone
I thought only dependencies for windows cuda miner was cuda 9.1 and visual studio 2015?
11:38
Deleted Account
I’ll get 1 block every 2 weeks ☹️
11:39
Deleted Account
You guys are acting like this network is super stable, every single night we've had both pools go down for at least a portion of the evening
11:40
and with each of them goes a significant portion of the hashing power, if you want to capitalize on it, setup your own node and be prepared to mine to your own pool or solo mine
I
I
11:42
Iridescence
1080 Ti
11:44
Deleted Account
cool
MF
11:49
Mr Flintstone
do you need the patches for the community edition?
11:50
in visual studio 2015 I mean
11:58
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Hash rate test finished - Average 61.08 MH/s per GPU so 120 Mh/s on my system :)
11:59
Deleted Account
Great improvement, thanks Iridescence.
I
12:00
Iridescence
np
12:00
you get the upgrade for being early testers
12:06
Deleted Account
Does the upgrade give a boost to single GPUs?
12:09
Deleted Account
is mandels pool down?
I
12:14
Iridescence
@Scott got 353 MH/s from his GTX 1050 with my upgraded CUDA miner, up from 61 MH/s without the upgrade
12:20
Deleted Account
great got 2 gpu's going at 350 Mh/s now
12:20
Deleted Account
current nethash rate?
12:24
k80 single gpu is 130 mh/s ?
MF
12:25
Mr Flintstone
anyone else get AmoveoMinerGpuCuda.pdb could not be found? This is for Mandels gpu miner
12:25
Deleted Account
yes
12:25
i did not get that issue resolved
MF
12:26
Mr Flintstone
hmm
12:28
looks like im stuck then as well
12:28
Did he say anything?
12:34
Deleted Account
he said 2015 is required
12:34
visual studio 2015
MF
12:34
Mr Flintstone
yeah that’s what I’m using
12:35
Deleted Account
well maybe if two people have the issue itll be higher priority to fix
MF
12:35
Mr Flintstone
did you download the updates as well?
12:40
i have 1070ti and 1080ti
I
12:43
Iridescence
hang on I am debugging my mining pool
12:43
Deleted Account
visual studio 2015 is required for Mandels gpu miner
I
12:43
Iridescence
if you download my CUDA miner and tell me the results of perftest on your GPUs I will consider giving you the upgrade
12:44
Deleted Account
i unistalled 2017 and installed 2015,it's now working
MF
12:44
Deleted Account
yes, ofcourse
12:44
Deleted Account
did you launch from the console or through visual studio?
MF
12:45
Mr Flintstone
strange, I thought I installed visual studio 2015
12:45
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
if u use 2017 version of visio studio, you'll get errors
MF
12:45
Mr Flintstone
I am using 2015
12:45
Deleted Account
2015 is ok
MF
12:46
Mr Flintstone
still not working unfortunately
A
A
12:50
Deleted Account
👍
A
12:51
Deleted Account
Just increase the block size
I
12:51
Iridescence
My mining pool seems to be receiving requests, which is good
12:53
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
hello. can you fix the problem that the amoveopool can not approriate displayed. the miner address can not be inputted in the miner page.
12:54
Deleted Account
i was working with that pool a few minutes ago.
I
12:56
Iridescence
Unfortunately difficulty is very high now so blocks are hard to find
R
MH
13:14
R
13:15
RBT
thanks
MH
13:15
Mandel Hoff
It's 20% faster on my 750ti, and 10-15% faster on everything else versus previous version.
13:20
Deleted Account
Mandel, how much does it cost? 😛
13:20
totally kidding
MH
13:21
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
Understood - I think this is a non-english character encoding issue. I'm not sure how to reproduce it. Do you know which characters are making the address invalid? I haven't reproduced this yet.
13:22
I'm off to sleep. Happy hashing!
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P|
13:30
Paul N. | BAND (🅑) - I'll never DM you
What is the safest way to trade Amoveo right now?
13:38
Deleted Account
Write down your private keys on a piece of paper, put them in a bottle, and then throw it in the ocean. Determine the drift patterns and tell another party a destination beach to be on and time. Then just send some btc to zack and beg him for VEO
P|
NH
13:46
Nick Harris
Is it possible to rent gpu hash power to mine Amoveo? I want to participate but I don't have my own mining setup
13:46
And it seems like gpu mining has become obsolete already
14:06
Deleted Account
its possibly but seems much harder
14:06
cloud providers dont really want you mining even with cpu, but gpu is more rare and seems ot have greater restrictions and permissions before they let you use the gpus
I
14:15
Iridescence
For some reason I can't get a new node to continue to sync on a VPS
14:15
it syncs up to the latest block, but then doesn't continue syncing from the peers
P|
14:17
Deleted Account
Iridescence, if you figure it out let me know. I've been having that issue from day 1
14:17
Deleted Account
rail, yes just specify an incrementing device id for each gpu
14:17
0 for the first one, 1 for the second, etc.
I
14:20
Iridescence
yes, my public IP is accessible
14:20
I can query the node
14:22
@zen0fex Good to know that I'm not the only one with that problem
14:22
Deleted Account
yeah, I honestly got tired of trying to maintain it and gave up
I
14:22
Iridescence
it's so strange
14:22
because the node works fine on my personal computer
14:23
Deleted Account
I've only tried it on the VPS, so its nice to have someone narrow down whats going on. I've had the issue on every version since the mainnet launched
14:24
it seems to just keep removing peers until my chain is "stale"
I
14:24
Iridescence
hmm
14:24
for me the peers are still there
14:24
but the block:height(). and api:height(). don't change
P|
14:26
Paul N. | BAND (🅑) - I'll never DM you
Did you do
sync_mode:normal(). after the sync:start(). is done?
14:26
Deleted Account
its odd because at the beginning it always syncs fine, it also never makes it to the sync_mode:normal(). stage where the api works
I
14:26
Iridescence
yeah
14:26
Deleted Account
I have to trigger it manually, which I'm not sure is normal behaviour
14:27
Paul, yep every time.
K
14:28
Kenny
i really think we need the black/white list for peers
14:30
Deleted Account
maybe a discord server too 😄
K
14:32
Kenny
discord would be great
14:32
telegram is terrible
I
14:33
Iridescence
I think there is already an unofficial discord for trading
14:37
Deleted Account
I like it because we could separate out the channels to peoples individual groupings, like a developers room for those of us interested in the smart contracts, or advanced functionality
14:38
and a miners channel for those of us interested in mining, etc.
K
14:38
Kenny
^this
14:38
it is epic
14:39
Deleted Account
there are 281 people on this server, and every single one of them is in this channel. Can make for some crazy backlog
14:39
well, I guess "server and channel" are incorrect classifications for telegram
R
RT
Z
16:19
In reply to this message
There is a discord server, but everyone keeps choosing to use telegram instead
RT
16:20
Roger That
wow difficulty has spiralled out here
16:20
managed 2 veos so far with cpu, now even gpus dont make much sense
16:20
by end of this week it'll be into droplets
M
G
16:26
BATMAN = BITMAIN 😅
Z
RT
16:30
Roger That
thanks, where can i learn this language, sorry pretty much noob here
Z
BB
16:31
Brian Brian
i got it to work, thanks! i think I was missing a dependency or had a version mismatch
Z
16:31
Zack
In reply to this message
Wow. Thank you for doing this research.
In one way this puts my mind at ease. No one is getting cheap tokens.
In another way this makes me worried. That is more money than we should be investing at this early risky stage.
In one way this puts my mind at ease. No one is getting cheap tokens.
In another way this makes me worried. That is more money than we should be investing at this early risky stage.
16:33
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/getting-started/turn_it_on.md
Update the software, then follow the instructions step by step.
Update the software, then follow the instructions step by step.
16:33
and other sha256 coins also don't have specific asics to mine.
Z
16:35
Zack
In reply to this message
You can look it up using a full node https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/api/commands_mining.md
Joseph Junior joined group by link from Group
Z
16:47
Deleted Account
thx
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Z
G
16:59
Gonzalo
In reply to this message
You can force people to use discord. Make this chat "read only", write the last message with a link to the discord group and pin it
Z
17:04
Zack
Amoveo market cap $172k
RT
Z
17:04
Zack
$28
RT
17:06
Roger That
thats high!
17:06
wow
17:06
so i mined $60 worth 😄
Z
17:07
Zack
great
RT
17:07
Roger That
yeah, next 60 dollars will never come 😂
17:08
other pool is not finding blocks at all
Z
17:10
Zack
I think Mandel's pool find a block every 30 minutes, the way things are now.
17:10
80 tera hash per block.
RT
17:11
Roger That
man!
17:12
if nothing else, i do worry about the cumulative power usage, given most of it is wasted in competing
G
17:14
Gonzalo
In reply to this message
ALL is wasted on competing, I think it does not care wether you put your hashing power
Z
17:14
Zack
In reply to this message
Electricity value doesn't last long anyway. Converting it to token form is a good way to make it last.
RT
17:15
Roger That
i do disagree and vehemently so but this is not the forum
17:20
Deleted Account
100 veo for 0.25 btc. You guys are so rich
Z
17:21
Zack
My previous projects, Augur + Aeternity, are together worth over $1 billion.
Those projects have repeatedly delayed their launch, their communities are losing hope.
If we can last a month, and we start making useful markets for people to gamble in, then we can get most of this value to transfer to Amoveo.
Those projects have repeatedly delayed their launch, their communities are losing hope.
If we can last a month, and we start making useful markets for people to gamble in, then we can get most of this value to transfer to Amoveo.
17:23
but worried about the coming token inflation
17:27
Deleted Account
I think if Amoveo really succeeds, 100 veo for 0.25 btc is still insanely cheap even after considering 20-30 times block reward inflation.
RT
17:27
Roger That
In reply to this message
What’s the inflation schedule right now? We do need a website and some docs.
Z
17:29
Zack
The community can use the governance mechanism to adjust the block reward at any time.
We cannot predict what the community will decide in the long term.
For the short term, it appears the block reward will decrease from 1.5 Veo to 1 Veo around height 3150.
We cannot predict what the community will decide in the long term.
For the short term, it appears the block reward will decrease from 1.5 Veo to 1 Veo around height 3150.
RT
17:30
Roger That
In reply to this message
Yeah assuming it stays unchanged, let’s say how many veos will exist 1 yr from now?
17:30
I am confused about the emission rate here
Z
17:30
Zack
144 per day * 365 days = 52560 Veo.
RT
17:31
Roger That
Ok thanks.
17:31
That clears it up.
17:34
Found the developers guide. Have to learn erlang now 😀
Z
17:42
Zack
In reply to this message
I think it is best to cut your trade up into small pieces.
For example, if we want to trade 1 Veo for 1 altcoin, First I send you 0.2 altcoin, then you send me 0.2 Veo, over and over till the trade is complete.
This way you only risk 0.2 Veo at a time.
Alternatively, you could use a trusted third party and a 2 of 3 multisig.
Ideally we will get atomic swaps working soon. They would let you trade instantly and without any risk.
For example, if we want to trade 1 Veo for 1 altcoin, First I send you 0.2 altcoin, then you send me 0.2 Veo, over and over till the trade is complete.
This way you only risk 0.2 Veo at a time.
Alternatively, you could use a trusted third party and a 2 of 3 multisig.
Ideally we will get atomic swaps working soon. They would let you trade instantly and without any risk.
P|
18:12
Deleted Account
Zack I can understand why you choose POW but hopefully soon its going to be a thing of the past, its a waste of resources.
18:12
T
Z
18:12
Zack
In reply to this message
To create value in the cryptocurrency, value of some other form must be destroyed.
It is not a waste.
It is not a waste.
18:20
Deleted Account
I prefer that value comes from the funcionality of the blockchain rather than from resources waste
18:21
just my pov
P|
18:23
Paul N. | BAND (🅑) - I'll never DM you
In reply to this message
Crypto has always been arbitrages on energy. It defines the baseline value of each coin. However, that's not the only part of the story. There needs to be people who's willing to buy mined coins, who evaluate coin's value based on utilities it provides.
Z
18:25
Zack
In reply to this message
Software can be cloned for free, so clearly the value does not come from the functionality of the blockchain.
18:26
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Team's cant be cloned Zack cant be cloned either... anyway lets get to other topic
O
18:48
Oliver
You all write much fast er than i can read... 😅
Z
18:52
Zack
I think it is not a good idea to try and read this entire chat. If you have a discussion that you want to be preserved, it is better to do it on Reddit.
If anything important happens in this Telegram group, we should add it to the docs folder of Amoveo on github.
So you would only read this telegram group for entertainment value.
If anything important happens in this Telegram group, we should add it to the docs folder of Amoveo on github.
So you would only read this telegram group for entertainment value.
O
18:54
Oliver
In reply to this message
Yes good idea. I think important things should be added to reddit. You can also use the sticky post function.
18:57
Deleted Account
@Mandelhoff Thanks for all what you are doing for the community. Any chance of lowering the payout minimum of the pool ? I have mined for the first three days but only go less than 1 ...
18:59
Deleted Account
What’s the explorer link?
Z
19:00
Deleted Account
Balance NaN means nothing?
Z
19:08
There was a small issue with the sharding system the other day. If you think your account should be existing, but the explorer does not show it, then tell me.
19:08
My server mistakenly thought that some account was on a different shard, so the server stopped keeping a record of that account's state.
SP
Z
19:18
Zack
yes. I am running a pool that gets over 90% of the hashrate.
SP
19:19
Stefan Prieschl
can you send me the link the normal pool is not very good
Z
19:20
Zack
159.89.106.253:8080
Is the location of the pool. I am not certain how to connect your GPU to it.
I think Mandel's GPU might have no easy way to do it.
Is the location of the pool. I am not certain how to connect your GPU to it.
I think Mandel's GPU might have no easy way to do it.
19:20
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amoveo/comments/822em9/cuda_gpu_miner_for_ubuntu/
Maybe this gpu will connect easily
Maybe this gpu will connect easily
19:32
Deleted Account
CPU mining still possible?
Z
19:45
is that owning thousands VEO impossible in this siuation
MH
20:22
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
👍 The tx finally stuck in a block on the 5th payout attempt.
MS
20:24
Matthew Slipper
@Mandelhoff what is the purpose of loading a private key into the pool website?
20:24
I'm referring to the /miner page specifically
20:25
BTW I'm running your cuda miner - it works well
MH
20:25
Mandel Hoff
The wallet page require it to make a spend tx after pk is loaded. The miner pk load is just a convenience thing, certainly not required.
MS
20:25
Matthew Slipper
Cool. So if I just run the CUDA miner with my pubkey, payouts happen automatically?
MH
MS
20:26
Matthew Slipper
Lovely, thanks - so once I get to 1 veo it'll payout?
MH
20:26
Mandel Hoff
yes.
MS
20:26
Matthew Slipper
Great. I'll leave my 1080 rig on, then.
MH
20:27
Mandel Hoff
I made an updated release late last night. It has a 10-20% speed boost (depending on gpu model). Be sure you have the latest:
MS
20:27
Matthew Slipper
Oh great will give that a shot now.
MH
20:30
Mandel Hoff
Try various blocks I've values too. Default is 256 but sometimes 192 is a little better. 512 is max
20:53
Deleted Account
does it support more than 2gpus now?
MH
21:02
Mandel Hoff
I think so. I've heard a couple people say they have 7 gpu boxes with it.
21:09
Deleted Account
excuse me，what is the min payment in amoveopool？thanks
21:18
Deleted Account
1 veo
21:35
Deleted Account
so sad
21:36
my unpaid balance is .389
21:36
but my hashrate is about 40M
21:37
the difficulty is so high now
MH
21:37
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
Yes, it is. Some entity is throwing a crazy amount of capital at the network.
21:37
Deleted Account
i think i wont never get paid
21:38
will never*
MH
21:39
Mandel Hoff
All other pools don't payout unless you get 1.5 veo, so... shared pool is still lower than all others.
Z
21:43
Zack
I changed the light wallet so now you can run it without installing amoveo.
I added instructions to the readme.
I added instructions to the readme.
MF
21:44
Mr Flintstone
@Mandelhoff do you have an idea of what might cause AmoveoMinerGpuCuda.pdb could not be found for your gpu miner?
Z
21:44
Zack
This is convenient for cold storage because you don't have to install erlang, it just runs in the browser alone.
MF
21:44
Mr Flintstone
@zack what entropy does key pair generation use?
21:45
on your light wallet
Z
MH
21:45
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
That's some sort of generic crash such that it's trying to find that "program database" to launch a debugger. Are you able to run a cuda ethereum miner tool on your box?
Z
21:45
Zack
It also has a built-in random number generator, but I don't trust things like that.
21:46
it uses libraries that end up using different RNGs depending on your device. Especially old Andriod devices could be insecure.
MF
21:46
Mr Flintstone
I’ll probs just hash an mp3 recorded from my mic
21:46
I assume that is strong enough
Z
21:47
Zack
sure, as long as you can convert it to text, the light node should be able to read the text and use it as entropy
21:47
I just type random characters for a while.
MF
21:47
Mr Flintstone
lol
21:48
that might work as well
21:48
Random characters + a salt
21:48
that should be enough
21:48
typed random characters*
Z
21:48
Zack
You can use the same tool for making brainwallets too
MF
21:48
Mr Flintstone
yeah but brainwallets are a great way to lose everything if you don’t know what you’re doing
Z
21:48
Zack
if you use the same entropy, you will get the same wallet
P|
21:49
Paul N. | BAND (🅑) - I'll never DM you
@Mandelhoff I got
!!! ERROR: SubmitWork Response: ERROR: Duplicate nonce submitted this work item. when I tried to run your miner on multiple GPU at once
Z
21:49
Zack
yes, don't type your brain wallet into an insecure website for example
MF
21:49
or just have any normal brain wallet I would say
21:49
like even if you think it’s an obscure phrase
21:50
there are certainly brute force searches being conducted right now for brainwallet private keys
21:50
probs not for amoveo, but definitely the larger chains
Z
21:50
Zack
sure, it isn't hard to write
MF
21:51
Mr Flintstone
I.e “how much wood could a wood chuck chuck if...” had like 200 btc on it lmao
Z
21:51
Zack
brain wallets are great for testing. I don't have to keep track of the private keys for the accounts I use for teting
MF
21:51
Mr Flintstone
a brain wallet with a salt is most likely perfectly fine
Z
21:52
Zack
What is the point of a brainwallet if you have to keep salt too?
21:53
I think that is the same thing as having an encrypted copy of your private key, and using a memorable phrase to decrypt, at least from the user's perspective
MH
22:06
Mandel Hoff
Are we still on track to drop the block reward to 1.0 at 5134?
P|
22:07
Paul N. | BAND (🅑) - I'll never DM you
@Mandelhoff If I use multiple GPU on the same public key with your miner, I got
!!! ERROR: SubmitWork Response: ERROR: Duplicate nonce submitted this work item.
Z
22:09
Zack
In reply to this message
the oracle is still in the correct state. As long as no one bets against me till then.
Someone needs to do a oracle_close tx to finish off the process, the blockchain doesn't automatically close it.
Someone needs to do a oracle_close tx to finish off the process, the blockchain doesn't automatically close it.
MH
22:10
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
Often or just once in a while? If it's often, try different addresses. The gpu nonce generation is pretty good, so collisions should be pretty unlikely.
MF
22:10
Mr Flintstone
you don’t need to keep the salt, you just keep the input to the salt
22:10
then hash it yourself
22:10
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
mine using your cuda miner but connect to you mining pool with port 8080
P|
22:12
P|
22:13
Paul N. | BAND (🅑) - I'll never DM you
Is this true? If I reuse the old pubkey, the balance will get destroyed?
MF
22:14
Mr Flintstone
how can you possibly destroy a key pair lol?
22:15
does the network have a list of destroyed/invalid public keys?
P|
22:16
Paul N. | BAND (🅑) - I'll never DM you
that's what I thought too, but apparently that's not how it's written. Zack Please clarify.
MH
22:16
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
Sorry, it's using std::independent_bits_engine<std::default_random_engine, 32, uint32_t> randomBytesEngine; which is the best random nonce c++ that I know about. Maybe it's seeding poorly, I tend to use different addresses.
P|
22:17
Paul N. | BAND (🅑) - I'll never DM you
In reply to this message
No problem man, I can use different addresses ;)
MH
22:19
Mandel Hoff
I would love to add a "worker suffix" to my pool, but that's probably many hours of dev that I'm not able to invest. That would fix nonce collisions for same address.
G
22:25
Gonzalo
In reply to this message
Its just a way to say that, if you destroy your private keys, your balance will be inaccesible on the future
MH
22:29
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
Agreed. It's scary how much capital they are throwing at the network. I would love someone to fact-check my calculations or estimate on their own for the fpga approach, or suggest how any TH/s asic might be doing the work.
22:33
Zack maybe it makes sense to reword that phrase so it’s less confusing?
Z
22:35
Zack
In reply to this message
This sounds like a good way to lose access to your Veo. I think using salt like that does not increase your security.
G
Z
22:36
Zack
In reply to this message
generating a new pubkey deletes the old one from the ram controlled by your browser.
Closing the page also deletes it.
Closing the page also deletes it.
G
22:41
Gonzalo
Zack, whats your estimation today about amoveos network to survive? I guess you are more confident right now...
Z
22:44
Zack
Has any of your nodes crashed since I tried to fix the
potential block died! bug yesterday?
22:45
It is a pretty big problem. I was thinking I can't have more than 30% confidence in Amoveo until it is fixed.
22:45
But it hasn't happened to me since I pushed what I think was a fix
MH
22:46
Mandel Hoff
I haven't crashed since blk 4k diff adjustment. I updated at the 4k diff change, but not after that yet.
22:47
Updating now. Lots of changes just pulled.
MF
22:48
Mr Flintstone
@zack even if there is some catastrophic consensus failure we can still checkpoint
MH
22:50
Mandel Hoff
ok, my node is updated and appears running. I'll watch sync.
Z
22:50
Zack
In reply to this message
if the consensus breaks in certain kinds of ways, it could be hard to agree on how it should be fixed
MF
22:53
Mr Flintstone
makes sense
22:55
Deleted Account
current net hash rate?
Z
22:55
Zack
I don't want to give anyone a false sense of security. This is new technology that we don't know much about yet.
It could break in ways that none of us have imagined.
I don't want anyone to invest too much money and get hurt. It would make me feel bad if that happened.
It could break in ways that none of us have imagined.
I don't want anyone to invest too much money and get hurt. It would make me feel bad if that happened.
22:56
Deleted Account
thats ok zack, can always revert the blockchain
Z
22:57
Deleted Account
holy crap
22:57
lol gotta switch to gpu
G
G
22:59
Gonzalo
In reply to this message
Im updating every 12 hours. No issues at least on the last 24 hours
Z
22:59
Zack
Wouldn't the network have more confidence if we knew who was mining?
I wonder why they don't reveal themselves.
Maybe they are waiting until they are ready to sell, so the hashrate stays lower until then.
I wonder why they don't reveal themselves.
Maybe they are waiting until they are ready to sell, so the hashrate stays lower until then.
MH
23:00
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
Yes, it could just be a giant gpu pool too. I was sort of assuming someone had superior tech with a 100-1000x hardware, but now I sort of think they just have 100-1000x capital to run.
23:01
On the first day or two, they did have superior tech - for sure gpu/fpga versus cpu.
G
23:01
Greg
if some of us can hash 1GH/s at home, imagine what could do some of the mining farms out there
Z
23:01
Zack
It must be someone who voted "$100+ per month" on how much they planned to spend for mining in my twitter poll.
G
23:01
Greg
lol clearly $100+ per month.
MH
G
23:02
Greg
1GH/s is $150 electricity a month
J
23:02
Jim
The hashrates so far are barely 1% of a typical nicehash market for an algo
G
23:03
Gonzalo
Im pretty sure that we have a really big miner behind. It makes no sense to me all the hasshing power on Zacks pool. I believe 90% of the miners there are the same miner with different pubkeys.
Z
23:04
I didn't think it would grow so fast
s
23:05
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
In reply to this message
the supply is set up to incentivize heavy min ing => pump and dump
Z
23:05
Zack
I think it is one guy with better technology.
Otherwise more of them would reveal themselves to us.
Otherwise more of them would reveal themselves to us.
G
P|
23:06
Paul N. | BAND (🅑) - I'll never DM you
how much hash power per sec are we now?
G
23:07
Gonzalo
In reply to this message
I mean, if you are a small miner you will go to a shared pool, so you will earn everyday your small part of the cake. Given the actual network's hashrate and the ongoing increasing ratio, a small miner will eventually never get a reward on a non shared pool.
s
23:07
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
In reply to this message
yep, the governance mechanism uses token betting
Z
23:07
Zack
530 gh/s
s
23:07
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
and the tokens are all being mined by the same person
G
23:08
Greg
In reply to this message
how do you measure this? could be good to have it on explorer.html
s
23:08
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
kinda doubt that one person will govern against their interests
Z
23:08
Zack
They don't control the governance, even if they own 90% of the tokens.
G
23:08
Greg
In reply to this message
yes expect if this person doesn't participate in governance but I really doubt it
s
23:09
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
In reply to this message
thats just a truism of any open source blockchgain project
Z
23:09
Zack
they can participate, just like everyone else.
They don't have the final decision.
They don't have the final decision.
23:12
s
23:13
because the supply is fixed and known, especially to the monopolist
Z
23:13
Zack
it means there is more opportunity to make a profit by participating in governance.
s
23:13
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
yes, under the assumption that the totoal supply of currency is funcitonally infinite relative to the scope of the game
MH
23:14
Mandel Hoff
Zack, are you able to track the addresses of your miners and see if the block winners are all coming from the same region? Which region?
s
23:14
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
that is true, but that is not the case here. the supply is well known and small relative to the stakes. there is a very simple nash equilibriumj in the betting game
23:14
hence the first line of the abstract, "Prediction markets are low volume speculative markets whose prices offer informative
forecasts on particular policy topics"
forecasts on particular policy topics"
MH
23:14
Mandel Hoff
I think you identified batman as NJ, USA, right?
Z
23:15
Zack
I haven't tried to track him down yet
23:15
this is a good idea
23:15
Deleted Account
Add pcap to the main cpu miner
MH
23:15
Mandel Hoff
There are a few diff addresses on your pool. It'd be nice to know if they do all belong to the same person/region.
Z
23:15
Zack
In reply to this message
It doesn't matter that the number of coins is finite and known. I don't know why you would think that.
23:16
The trick is to find out without making the miner crash
s
23:16
scott_l | DeFi Pulse
In reply to this message
low volume relative to the total supply of currency is necessary to prevent a nash equilbrium, given the information known to any participant