Amoveo ♥🧿
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someone made a trade, then mostly undid the trade. now the market has slightly more value, because of the 0.2% trading fee
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5 September 2020
z
23:37
zhaxzhax
Yeah, your opinion is brilliant which just rebuild my realize of blockchain. I have been a POS supporter because POS cost less resource than POW. But you point out that POS can not be trusted. Maybe I need more time to digest it.
K
23:40
Kxxxed
main difference being that there is direct financial incentive to keep the PoS network healthy. There is no direct financial incentive in a real world democracy structure. Not fair to compare the two. Given the financial incentive, PoS is less likely to be abused by the investor vs a PoW investor. When you invest in PoS you are "stuck" with that investment, when you invest in PoW, you can take your hardware and go support another project. Or just do drive by 51% attacks. More PoWs have been attacked then PoS,,, I dont even remember last time were PoS network was attacked.
z
23:48
zhaxzhax
In reply to this message
Your point make sense either. Zack think validator in POS network will be easily corrupted because they want to keep their coins rather than that the miner may hold no coin. But I suggest that if miner hold no coins, it maybe easy to bribe the miner to attack pow network maybe in some perspect.
23:50
If miner hold nothing. Why they are still willing to secure the network if a attack will send they more coins?
Z
23:50
Zack
When you bribe a PoS validator, they can lock up more money in another contract to enforce that they will participate in the attack.
With pow this is not possible, because you can't necessarily know which pool made which block.
With pow this is not possible, because you can't necessarily know which pool made which block.
23:51
So it is not possible to do soft fork bribery attacks against pow
z
23:52
zhaxzhax
But I can bribe miner, cause miner hold no coin, start a attack will not damage miner's benefit.
K
23:53
Kxxxed
If a validator has decent amount of collateral locked up,,, he is not going to risk fucking with the network over a measly bribe,, if the risk is him losing his collateral or the value of it. A validator will do everything to promote his investment, not hurt it.
23:55
I have played this delegation game on several high profile projects, and still hold delegate spot on some of them, including LISK. Game of Delegates is crazy,, and I have been in private groups where delegates meet to discuss stuff. I have never seen a delegate trying to compromise the network for a quick profit vs holding on to their precious delegate spot
z
23:56
zhaxzhax
If a attack in POS network happen, the validator's coin will become nothing rather than piece of shit. The network lose it credit. The validtor will not take this risk to destory the network.
I mean he can keep his token away from punish, but after this attack his token will have no value.
I mean he can keep his token away from punish, but after this attack his token will have no value.
K
23:56
Kxxxed
^^
23:57
Both PoW and PoS have the same theoretical "bribe" attack vector... but the likely hood of it happening on a PoS is much less likely vs PoW.
23:58
If a PoW attack fails, only electricity bill was the financial hit,,, (or renting rigs).. If PoS attack fails,,, the financial damage is much greater.
Z
23:58
Zack
In reply to this message
I agree. If the attack succeeds, the pos coins will be worth nothing.
It is still more profitable for the validator to participate in the attack.
Because of tragedy of the Commons.
It is still more profitable for the validator to participate in the attack.
Because of tragedy of the Commons.
23:59
In reply to this message
if you pay me to stop mining. How can you know if I actually stopped mining?
I can just mine to a different pubkey.
So bribing pow miners just does not work.
I can just mine to a different pubkey.
So bribing pow miners just does not work.
6 September 2020
K
00:00
Kxxxed
bribing miners= buying hash power
00:00
ie: ETC
Z
00:01
Zack
You can fill the blocks with spam if you pay enough fees, yes. That is the case with all blockchains though.
00:02
Filling a pow blockchain with spam is expensive, but not destructive. Eventually you can't afford to pay fees.
00:02
A bribery attack against PoS completely destroys the network, and is cheap.
K
Z
00:04
Zack
This is a place to talk about Amoveo.
K
00:04
Kxxxed
sorry.. was just comparing. Anywho.
00:07
anyways,, so far the record shows that there has been countless of PoW attacks,, but few if any PoS have been. And that has been primarly due to financial incentive. Matter of fact,, even getting hold of enough PoS delegates to collude is almost impossible vs bribing a single mining farm.
Z
00:10
Zack
Pow gets stronger as the network gets bigger and more decentralized.
The cost to attack is proportional to the rate of economic activity.
PoS gets weaker. The cost of attacking is: the average amount of stake owned by a validator who is a member of the poorer half of validators.
The cost to attack is proportional to the rate of economic activity.
PoS gets weaker. The cost of attacking is: the average amount of stake owned by a validator who is a member of the poorer half of validators.
K
00:14
Kxxxed
how much bigger do you need to get? look at ETC market cap, .. its getting raped left and right.. You cant attack PoS unless you buy a huge stake,, and at that point you have to be a retard to want to hurt your investment by attacking the network. good luck trying to bribe enough stakers to attack PoS specially if the value is dropping, and by the time you finish your attack and try to dump your come up, you might get less then your initial bribe investment due to the fact that you crushed the value with your attack.
Z
00:15
Zack
In reply to this message
When 2 blockchains share the same kind of mining hardware, that makes it insecure.
Etc is attacked because the mining is compatible with eth.
Etc is attacked because the mining is compatible with eth.
K
00:17
Kxxxed
every pow should use BTC chain for marking checkpoints. dont think there is any PoW algo right now that cant be abused. anyways... good chatting. gtg
z
00:19
zhaxzhax
That's why most blockchain network choose to turn into POS. To attack POS, you need to hold a lot of tokens which are pretty expensive. Zack's soft-fork bribe attack may not be thoughtful, the validator will never choose to under the risk of their token becoming no value meaningless nothing.
Z
00:20
Zack
the cost to bribe a validator is (how much they stand to lose if the attack succeeds ) * (how much more likely the attack is to succeed, if they join the attack)
00:21
(How much more likely the attack is to succeed if they join) this is approximately the same as (the part of the stake they own)/(all the stake owned by validators)
K
00:22
Kxxxed
your theoretical PoS attack does not play out in the real world, i dont think you fully understand the power of financial incentive.
z
00:23
zhaxzhax
In reply to this message
nope. If the attack is going to be succeed. The validtor will get nothing because their token will become meaningless.
Z
00:23
Zack
So the cost to bribe a validator is (the value of the stake they own) * (the proportion of stake they own out of the total)
So if you are a validator with $1000 of stake, and the total pool is $1000000, then the cost to bribe you is approximately $1.
So if you are a validator with $1000 of stake, and the total pool is $1000000, then the cost to bribe you is approximately $1.
z
00:24
zhaxzhax
In reply to this message
Yeah, if the bribe be paid on a different blockchain, why i can be bribed by $1 that I will lose $1000.
K
00:24
Kxxxed
lol,, validator with $1000 stake? and he is holding a meaningful validator spot? as in this single validator can pose a threat with his $1000 stash? who the fuck would want to even attack that cheap ass worthless coin?
00:25
btw, you need to bribe 51% of validators
00:25
vs 1 mining farm
Z
00:25
Zack
If there are 1000 validators with $1000 of stake each, the bribe per validator is $1.
So bribing 51% costs $510.
So bribing 51% costs $510.
z
K
00:26
Kxxxed
ok, try to get a hold of 51% validator to bribe without causing a panic or doing it on a downlow
00:26
IMPOSSIBLE
ŽM
00:26
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
The point that you're missing from the beginning of talking about bribe attacks is that humans are not robots that comply to your bribing equation. You still did not prove a PoS attack, even a cheap one.
Z
00:26
Zack
In reply to this message
Causing a panic that destroys the value of the PoS coin was the point of the attack in the first place.
K
00:27
Kxxxed
so your shorting?
00:27
hehe
Z
00:27
Zack
In reply to this message
The humans that use the more profitable strategy will take the money from those who don't. Eventually the majority of money will be controlled by those who are using the profitable strategy.
K
00:27
Kxxxed
i guess. but still., its almost impossible to get that kind of consensus on PoS via bribing,, vs bring 1 mining farm.
ŽM
00:27
People are irrational
00:28
You could maybe abuse PoS with bribery if validators were ML algorithms
Z
00:28
Zack
In reply to this message
Release an alternative version of the full node software that pays stakers 1% more.
Call it an update.
Call it an update.
ŽM
00:28
Živojin Mirić
But not in real life
z
00:29
zhaxzhax
In reply to this message
The Byzantium Consensus only need 33% validator to be bribed, so you need cost $334
00:30
There will be some reason that most new blockchain network choose POS rather than POW.
ŽM
00:30
Živojin Mirić
It all sounds perfect in game theory...
Z
z
00:32
zhaxzhax
You havn't answered about Byzantium Consensus
00:34
I think may be there are some misunderstand in POS network of Zack.
00:35
Zack may have misunderstood POS network.
00:36
But I love your brilliant coding talent and impressive opinion
Z
00:37
Zack
I probably do misunderstand.
I'm not asking anyone to trust me.
I give you the reasons for why I think PoS is not secure.
If you want to change my mind, you would probably need to find a flaw in my reasoning and point it out to me.
I'm not asking anyone to trust me.
I give you the reasons for why I think PoS is not secure.
If you want to change my mind, you would probably need to find a flaw in my reasoning and point it out to me.
z
00:50
zhaxzhax
Byzantine Fault Tolerance （BFT） will allow at least 33% Malicious node. You can not use 1$ to bribe the validator who stake 1000$.
If there are 1000 validator who stake 1000$. You need to bribe 34%validator which cost 1000$*1000*34%
If there are 1000 validator who stake 1000$. You need to bribe 34%validator which cost 1000$*1000*34%
Z
00:50
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/other_blockchains/the_defence_of_pos.md
I think it is very revealing to see the supposed PoS professionals explain how PoS can possibly survive this kind of attack.
You would think that if PoS existed as a thing that could be understood, that we would be able to agree on why it can survive certain attacks.
Each person seems to have an independent concept of how PoS works.
I think it is very revealing to see the supposed PoS professionals explain how PoS can possibly survive this kind of attack.
You would think that if PoS existed as a thing that could be understood, that we would be able to agree on why it can survive certain attacks.
Each person seems to have an independent concept of how PoS works.
00:50
In reply to this message
in this situation the cost to bribe one validator is $1. so 34% is $340.
z
00:53
zhaxzhax
Why $1? If the attack happened, my staking 1000$ token will become nothing unless no one knows this attack ever happened.
00:53
If I am the validator, I will ask for 1001$
Z
00:53
Zack
the cost of the bribe is (how much you can lose) * (how much more likely the attack is to succeed, if you participate)
z
00:54
zhaxzhax
Ok I get it
00:54
ture, 1$
Z
00:54
Zack
In reply to this message
the bribery stuff can be done using other keys, on other blockchains. so you are cryptographically anonymized
00:54
it can be an off-chain smart contract enforced by Amoveo :)
I
00:56
Instinct
In reply to this message
Lol u reminded me of this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok9kXOsWeQM
Z
00:56
Zack
hahahaha
z
00:57
zhaxzhax
Nice talk to you. Although maybe I was convinced by you, I will still thinking about this question.
Z
01:31
Zack
about 4 days left until the AMM update.
about 12 hours until subcurrencies.
about 12 hours until subcurrencies.
x
10:08
x
i don't know where is proof of stake better than current fiat system
10:10
probably worst than
mx
11:08
mr x
i have account with 0.3 tveo but it gives me "load a key with funds." on uniswap.html hmm?
z
12:53
zhaxzhax
Yeah, it make sense. If I am not into the attack, I will lose my wealth. So there are more likelihood for me to be forced into this attack.
Cresus invited Cresus
C
16:04
Cresus
Hello
16:06
I red that POS was not enough secure but two questions :
Why ethereum with best blockchain experts don't know that ? And why ethereum has billions of $$$
If i should buy a rrue secure crypto which one do I need to choose ?
Why ethereum with best blockchain experts don't know that ? And why ethereum has billions of $$$
If i should buy a rrue secure crypto which one do I need to choose ?
Z
16:10
Zack
In reply to this message
the hard update didn't activate yet, or are you talking about the testnet?
16:10
I set up that page on the full node, because it will be active in like 3 days.
but it isn't ready yet.
but it isn't ready yet.
Z
16:39
Zack
In reply to this message
The ethereum community thinks they have found a flaw in our narrative, and they are working with an alternative narrative.
In the ethereum narrative, PoS is better because the network has more capability to punish validators who behave incorrectly.
They feel that our narrative is flawed, because they think that this kind of soft fork bribery attack can be done against PoW as well. Vitalik explains on the bottom of this page https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/01/28/p-epsilon-attack/
The attack that Vitalik is describing, it is the same thing as paying all the tx fees + all the block rewards to completely fill up blocks and censor the network from continuing.
bitcoin txs reference a recent hash. if you try to rebuild history for a double-spend, you can't include the txs from the valid side of history. So you aren't just undoing the one tx you want to attack, you are undoing significant activity.
Even if your side of history technically has more work, that doesn't necessarily mean that it will have the most value.
PoW is useful for decreasing the total number of alternatives to be manageable for us to agree on which version is the valuable version. The community may decide to update their nodes and wallets to ignore the attack-fork.
If this attack is done against PoS, it can permanently destroy all the value in that blockchain, and the attack is cheap.
If it is done against PoW, it can temporarily prevent any txs from getting processed, and the attack is expensive.
I think at this point the ethereum community is already undergoing significant institutionalization.
Inside of Ethereum, if you want to succeed, you need to be loyal to the gatekeepers.
There are certain topics that are taboo for ethereum devs to talk about, because they will stop receiving funding and community support to develop on Ethereum.
Certain ideas are not worth the risk to think about.
If there is a powerful person who you depend on, and talking about flaws in PoS makes them look bad, then you would not think about flaws in PoS.
There are a few very rich people who have risked their entire reputation on the idea that PoS is possible and will succeed, and they raised lots of money on this idea.
If you want to receive any money from these people, then you need to avoid ever mentioning flaws about PoS in public.
In the ethereum narrative, PoS is better because the network has more capability to punish validators who behave incorrectly.
They feel that our narrative is flawed, because they think that this kind of soft fork bribery attack can be done against PoW as well. Vitalik explains on the bottom of this page https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/01/28/p-epsilon-attack/
The attack that Vitalik is describing, it is the same thing as paying all the tx fees + all the block rewards to completely fill up blocks and censor the network from continuing.
bitcoin txs reference a recent hash. if you try to rebuild history for a double-spend, you can't include the txs from the valid side of history. So you aren't just undoing the one tx you want to attack, you are undoing significant activity.
Even if your side of history technically has more work, that doesn't necessarily mean that it will have the most value.
PoW is useful for decreasing the total number of alternatives to be manageable for us to agree on which version is the valuable version. The community may decide to update their nodes and wallets to ignore the attack-fork.
If this attack is done against PoS, it can permanently destroy all the value in that blockchain, and the attack is cheap.
If it is done against PoW, it can temporarily prevent any txs from getting processed, and the attack is expensive.
I think at this point the ethereum community is already undergoing significant institutionalization.
Inside of Ethereum, if you want to succeed, you need to be loyal to the gatekeepers.
There are certain topics that are taboo for ethereum devs to talk about, because they will stop receiving funding and community support to develop on Ethereum.
Certain ideas are not worth the risk to think about.
If there is a powerful person who you depend on, and talking about flaws in PoS makes them look bad, then you would not think about flaws in PoS.
There are a few very rich people who have risked their entire reputation on the idea that PoS is possible and will succeed, and they raised lots of money on this idea.
If you want to receive any money from these people, then you need to avoid ever mentioning flaws about PoS in public.
C
16:45
So what is your solution ?
16:45
DAG ?
Z
16:45
Zack
Amoveo uses PoW for security. similar to Bitcoin.
C
16:46
😊
Z
16:48
Zack
bitcoin is only for payments.
amoveo is for financial derivatives.
amoveo is for financial derivatives.
C
16:49
The FAQ is dead
Z
16:50
Zack
veoscan was from catweed, a volunteer. he stopped doing it. there are other websites to get the same info.
16:50
idk what FAQ you are talking about
C
16:51
Cresus
On your website
Z
16:51
what faq?
C
16:52
Cresus
Ok I was on faq. Amoveo. Io
Z
C
16:53
Cresus
But what do you think about POW with an green era
Z
16:54
Zack
The economic and environmental cost to produce currency is minimized by PoW.
https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/
https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/
16:54
anything else is less-green.
16:58
@denis_voskvitsov looks like the FAQ page on amoveo.io is broken.
DV
17:00
Denis Voskvitsov
indeed it is. I think it used 3rd party service to publish FAQ, will ask to remove the link at least.
Z
17:02
Zack
thanks denis :)
C
17:03
Cresus
Where is the best plave to buy few ?
Z
DV
17:04
Denis Voskvitsov
you can also try @ExchangeAmoveo_bot for smaller amounts (that's exchange bot from Exantech)
C
17:06
Cresus
How many people in the team
Z
17:06
Zack
I don't employ anyone
17:08
There are various people involved in different ways.
It is less like a traditional business, and more like an open source software project.
It is less like a traditional business, and more like an open source software project.
17:16
2 blocks until the subcurrency update
17:16
this is probably the biggest hard update in Amoveo's history.
C
17:27
Cresus
Zack what is the best wallet
17:27
To store your coin ?
Z
17:28
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo
This is the one I wrote.
You can use it for cold storage.
This is the one I wrote.
You can use it for cold storage.
17:35
one more block
Z
17:55
Zack
it is active :)
J
18:01
Jeans
🧿
Cedric invited Cedric
I
18:24
Instinct
🧿
mx
19:18
mr x
binary contract is just special case of scalar right?
A
19:52
Anger Trading
In reply to this message
Sorry im not too tech savy? Ive dled this and how to get it started?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
mx
20:00
mr x
go to src/js folder and open home.html
20:00
but it is not working for me at the moment
20:01
http://159.89.87.58:3010/home.html works but is not local
Z
21:01
Zack
I think the testnet isn't going to work with a local node.
Use a temporary private key
Use a temporary private key
mx
21:49
mr x
I don't think mainnet is working for me locally
cynthia invited cynthia
Z
22:44
Zack
there is no uniswap for mainnet for 3 more days
22:45
I updated this page http://159.89.87.58:3010/uniswap.html?mode=test
22:45
now it lists the 10 most popular contracts, and the oracle text that defines them
22:45
that way you don't have to copy paste the contract ID for your subcurrency.
22:45
you can just click the button, and it appears
22:46
I also made betting on true/false into a dropdown, so you don' have to type "true" or "false".
the only thing you need to type is the amount of currency that you want to send.
There is a dropdown to choose between the currencies you own for what to spend.
the only thing you need to type is the amount of currency that you want to send.
There is a dropdown to choose between the currencies you own for what to spend.
mx
22:59
mr x
nice
Z
23:00
Zack
Once there are more markets, I guess I'll show the top 10 filtered by a search phrase
mx
23:02
mr x
lookup price button gives Uncaught TypeError: Reduce of empty array with no initial value
Z
23:03
Zack
how about now?
23:04
I forgot to update the explorer that hosts the off chain oracle question text
C
mx
23:05
mr x
yeah works now
Z
23:06
In reply to this message
To be adaptable. To listen to what the users think. To deliver a product that is a pleasure to use.
C
23:07
Cresus
But without marketing your token will be never know. I mean you can have the better techno or stuff if nobody know....
K
23:08
K
Would be nice to give some block reward to Exante or other entities building user friendly UIs to keep them updated
Z
23:08
Zack
In reply to this message
Let's figure out who are the people that would benefit most from Amoveo. What they want. Then we can do targeted advertising for the initial users
C
23:16
Cresus
Where do you see Amoveo in 1 year ? 😂
Z
23:16
Zack
In reply to this message
I see that you change the price a little.
mr x is the first person other than me to make a bet
mr x is the first person other than me to make a bet
C
23:17
Cresus
😂
mx
23:17
mr x
yeahh!
C
I
23:20
Instinct
In reply to this message
I think Denis said they’ll probably do a dac for implementing subcurrency & amm stuff
K
Z
23:22
Zack
a DAC dominant assurance contract is when you use a financial derivative to incentivize the creation of a public good.
K
Z
23:23
Zack
it is a way to pay people to make software or digital value
23:23
that is trustless
x
23:45
x
In reply to this message
if it's prediction market, it seems that it will benefit traders and gamblers it seem similar to binary options
23:46
this s a binary option broker in the US
23:46
JS
23:48
Jon Snow
If people can do the arbitrage between those centralized platforms like NADEX and Amoveo, then Amoveo can have a pretty good market liquidity
x
23:52
x
there's also centralized prediction market too most likely, i don't remember the name
23:54
decentralized prediction market, is very important but probably will never have the scalability that centralized ones have.
JS
23:56
Jon Snow
Maybe Augur won’t have given the fees
23:56
Amoveo will be much cheaper
C
23:57
Cresus
Sorry but do you have a tutorial to store Amoveo in a wallet
23:57
I am not a blockchain expert 😢
23:58
Seems very not user friendly
I
7 September 2020
MF
C
00:02
But thank you
MF
00:03
Mr Flintstone
oh sorry
00:03
00:04
you can download it too
00:04
pretty user friendly
C
MF
00:04
Mr Flintstone
it has the same limitations as mew from a security perspective
00:04
if you use the website
00:05
i would download it and use it that way
C
AI 🏅 invited AI 🏅
A
05:01
AI 🏅
Hello! please tell me what's wrong with the amoveo project? the last news on the site was in 19
I
05:05
Instinct
In reply to this message
Exantech have taken a break from updating that. Zack is continuously working on development
JS
05:11
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Best site to follow the progress is Zack’s github and this telegram chat. All other sites are built and maintained by community volunteers and they would stop volunteering at any moment if they want.
A
05:34
AI 🏅
Thx !
05:41
I wish the community and the project success
Ken Saxon invited Ken Saxon
K
06:05
Ken Saxon
anybody want to make a futarchy to bet whether a socially incapacitated person can ever create a cryptopcurrency with market capitalization greater than $20 million?
06:10
zack is a great programmer. the problem with this project is that Zack is a terrible executor ( 0 progress) , terrible at understanding what the market wants (0 listening to feedback) , and also a terrible theoretician (nick szabo has already proved futarchy is bullshit)
JS
K
06:11
Ken Saxon
yeah look at where the price has been the past year
JS
06:13
Jon Snow
Project progress ≠ Price
K
06:13
Ken Saxon
of course it does
06:13
first of all, nick szabo has long responses on why futarchy doesn’t work
06:14
second of all, even if futarchy does work (which it doesn’t), then it follows that the market would reflect the reality of the state of the project (complete failure)
06:15
so there’s a proof by contradiction. If futarchy is not bullshit (which it is), then it follows that project progress would be reflect by price. Since price has been shit while all other defi projects have been soaring, it’s a proof by contradiction that there is 0 project progress. QED.
A
mx
mx
OK
08:17
O K
In reply to this message
If futarchy doesn't work, maybe you should bet that it does work. That way when it doesn't work, you still win the bet.
EA
08:26
Eric Arsenault
😂
Z
10:46
Zack
I programmed the "pool" tab in the uniswap tool.
http://159.89.87.58:3010/uniswap.html?mode=test
http://159.89.87.58:3010/uniswap.html?mode=test
10:47
it displays the 10 markets with the most liquidity, so you can click on one of them instead of copy/pasting a market ID.
mx
12:34
mr x
hmm server rejected the tx
12:34
buying trump liquidity shares
Anish Dahiya invited Anish Dahiya
Deleted invited Deleted Account
C
17:52
Cresus
Can I run a node with a vps ?
Z
18:03
In reply to this message
Which part is confusing? You can ask questions here.
We will make improvements based on what parts don't make sense.
We will make improvements based on what parts don't make sense.
C
Z
18:07
Zack
Ok, I'm looking
C
18:07
Cresus
I can help you with design i have no time to code but i can create a design for you and generate some code but maybe it not necessary ?
Z
18:08
Zack
I can program. Just tell me what we need to change to make it easier, I'll change it.
18:09
You want rainbow colors or something?
C
18:10
Cresus
In reply to this message
😂 I can do for you suggestion but i dont want to work for nothing if you cannot implement my design
Z
19:01
Zack
In reply to this message
I can't reproduce this error. Can you give me more details or a screen shot or something?
Did you do 2 txs in a row fast? maybe it had something to do with a zeroth confirmation tx in the mempool.
Did you do 2 txs in a row fast? maybe it had something to do with a zeroth confirmation tx in the mempool.
19:06
2 days until the AMM hard update activates.
19:06
I think we have a minimum viable uniswap tool ready for it
19:06
I wonder what I should focus on next.
the hard update for perpetual subcurrencies?
the hard update for perpetual subcurrencies?
19:07
paying fees in currencies other than veo, and using a market to buy the veo to afford the fee?
19:07
combining the system of order books and market makers. So if a trade isn't possible at a good price, you can make a swap offer instead.
and when you buy in the AMM, it checks to see if you can atomically use any swap offers to get a better price.
and when you buy in the AMM, it checks to see if you can atomically use any swap offers to get a better price.
mx
19:19
mr x
In reply to this message
Okay I had to first do set buy and then buy liquidity shares. No multitx from veo to liquidity shares straight?
Z
19:20
Zack
In reply to this message
I was thinking of updating the swap tool so that if you try to swap from veo to liquidity shares it will automatically know to buy the kinds of subcurrencies you need and deposit them into the market to buy shares.
mx
19:21
mr x
transmute anything to anything with single click
Z
19:21
Zack
yeah
19:22
but I think it is also nice to have the pool tab.
I think some liquidity providers are putting in a fair amount of attention, and want more fine-grain control.
so maybe we can start with both and see what users think
I think some liquidity providers are putting in a fair amount of attention, and want more fine-grain control.
so maybe we can start with both and see what users think
mx
19:42
mr x
Nice MVP would be to: Show currencies you have. Show currencies you can buy. Allow sending those currencies (this would also be THE single page wallet we send new people to). Automatically update everything without refresh (balances, syncing, unconfirmed balances) so that user would have instant feedback that something is happening. Multitx support (0 veo accounts would be cool). Allow instant profit taking when outcome of event becomes known (guess this would happen automatically cause some people would specialize buying at 99%). Oh and then CSS magic lol.
Z
20:01
Zack
http://159.89.87.58:3010/uniswap.html?mode=test I updated the format of pool mode. now it shows the price, and embeds the oracle text for the subcurrencies.
20:05
In reply to this message
we can already do these things:
* showing currencies you have
* we can send any currency. there is a tool in the contracts.html page. maybe this could be easier.
* instant automatic profit taking when result of a swap is known.
things we need:
* auto sync headers
* update all balances when we find new headers.
* hard update for the 0 veo accounts.
* showing currencies you have
* we can send any currency. there is a tool in the contracts.html page. maybe this could be easier.
* instant automatic profit taking when result of a swap is known.
things we need:
* auto sync headers
* update all balances when we find new headers.
* hard update for the 0 veo accounts.
mx
20:15
mr x
If the oracle text isn't available don't show it?
Z
20:16
Zack
yeah. it shows the contract id instead
mx
20:16
mr x
Don't even show that :P?
Z
20:16
Zack
then you have no idea what the market is for
20:16
no reason to show it at all, right?
mx
20:16
mr x
Right
Z
20:17
Zack
ifyou only know the price and liquidity
mx
20:17
mr x
I mean don't show the market at all
20:17
:P
Z
20:17
Zack
ok
mx
20:21
mr x
Yeah the sending functionality is in contracts.html but would be nice if the MVP functionality is in ONE place without clicking around.
Z
20:21
Zack
In reply to this message
everything exists in the contract.html page. that is the one place.
20:22
oh, that is only for spending subcurrency
20:22
I could add a veo-spender to that page
mx
20:23
mr x
Contracts.html is for "power" user.
Z
20:23
Zack
I think the subcurrency spender could also be used for spending veo
mx
20:24
mr x
yes
Z
20:24
Zack
so, like a third tab on the uniswap page?
20:24
idk about calling it "uniswap" then
mx
20:24
mr x
right
Z
20:24
Zack
[swap] [pool] [spend]
three tabs?
three tabs?
mx
20:24
mr x
sounds reasonable
Z
20:25
Zack
is there anything else that needs to be made available to non-power-users?
mx
20:25
mr x
so first time veo user only needs that page
Z
20:25
Zack
creating new markets or contracts?
mx
20:26
mr x
hmm
Z
20:26
Zack
maybe ill call the easy page "amoveo.html"
mx
20:26
mr x
yes
20:26
exactly
Z
20:26
Zack
easy_wallet.html
20:26
power_wallet.html
20:27
novice-wallet/advanced-wallet
20:27
there are also other pages for oracle enforcement and oracle creation etc
20:28
so lets leave contract.html as contract.html since it is all smart contract tools
20:28
and make "uniswap.html" into "simple_wallet.html"
mx
20:28
mr x
right on
20:29
creating new markets would be kinda nice maybe hmm
Z
20:30
Zack
I think uniswap does support creating new markets between arbitrary pairs
mx
20:33
mr x
shattering currency into subcurrency and making markets out of them
Z
20:34
Zack
making the smart contract to shatter the currency is a different step from making the market to connect the parts together
mx
20:34
mr x
yes
C
Z
C
Z
20:39
Zack
if you tell us your pubkey, we can send you some test veo to try it out
C
20:39
Cresus
😂👍
mx
20:39
mr x
:P
Z
20:43
Zack
what part is confusing?
20:43
what part do you want documentation for?
20:44
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs this is the repository with all the documentation
C
20:45
Cresus
Thanks i will check that this week
Z
20:45
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/design/smart_contracts.md I wrote about some of the ideas behind this smart contract design here.
mx
20:48
mr x
Maybe combine newcontract,setbuy,teachcontract into single button in amoveo.html
20:48
or whatever the name
Z
20:51
Zack
a person would want to create a contract and start out owning value in both sides?
20:52
do they also want to put some of that value into a market?
20:52
and make a swap-offer to sell any excess value owned in one of the subcurrencies or the other?
mx
21:06
mr x
Hmm. Shattering currency is kinda fun and easy to understand? Make it one step?
21:07
learn derivatives with amoveo lol
Z
21:09
Zack
Another way to make the contract is by posting a swap offer to buy some subcurrency in it, and the derivative contract only gets created if someone matches your trade.
s invited s
EA
21:38
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Yes to perpetuals, I feel like everything should just be perps
21:40
In reply to this message
Yeah, I would wait until we at least work out the kinks with the next couple updates
21:40
I’m sure there will be lots of feedback
Z
21:40
Zack
I rewrote a couple pages of docs, because a lot changed:
merkle trees now: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/design/trees.md
transaction types now: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/design/transaction_types.md
merkle trees now: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/design/trees.md
transaction types now: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/design/transaction_types.md
mx
21:51
mr x
Lot of people trading the same thing -> amm. One person offering lot of different things -> swap offers.
21:51
or something
Z
22:16
Zack
I'm thinking the amm liquidity tool should try to use existing subcurrency first.
And if you can't afford it, it should calculate a way to buy what you need, tell you the details, and ask for a confirmation.
And if you can't afford it, it should calculate a way to buy what you need, tell you the details, and ask for a confirmation.
JS
Z
23:07
Zack
http://159.89.87.58:3010/uniswap.html?mode=test
I set it up so you can view this page even if you don't have funds in the testnet.
I set it up so you can view this page even if you don't have funds in the testnet.
Z
23:24
Zack
227 blocks until it is possible to do yield farming on Amoveo.
ŽM
23:26
Živojin Mirić
can you tell me in layman terms how is amoveo superior to uniswap so I can shill it in the bar later?
Z
23:27
Zack
you can create an oracle on any question, and make a market to bet on that, without anyone's permission. and the oracle is more affordable than what is possible on ethereum.
ŽM
23:28
Živojin Mirić
with what do you farm?
Z
23:29
Zack
a market has 2 currencies. you buy those 2 and deposit them into the market to get liquidity shares.
you can exchange the liquidity shares for those 2 currencies again later
you can exchange the liquidity shares for those 2 currencies again later
23:30
while you are holding liquidity shares, they increase in value according to the trading fee of 0.2%
23:30
so markets with more trading and less liquidity are more profitable to hold liquidity shares in.
ŽM
23:30
Živojin Mirić
which currencies?
Z
23:33
Zack
we can make a smart contract. for example, betting on whether trump will be president again.
The smart contract has 2 kinds of subcurrency.
type 1 is valuable if he is president again.
type 2 is valuable if he is not president.
You can use the contract to transform 1 veo into (1 coin of trump-wins + 1 coin of trump-loses)
Then you can take those 2 coins, and deposit them into the market to get your liquidity shares.
So if people gamble on whether trump will be president, you can earn part of the trading fees.
The smart contract has 2 kinds of subcurrency.
type 1 is valuable if he is president again.
type 2 is valuable if he is not president.
You can use the contract to transform 1 veo into (1 coin of trump-wins + 1 coin of trump-loses)
Then you can take those 2 coins, and deposit them into the market to get your liquidity shares.
So if people gamble on whether trump will be president, you can earn part of the trading fees.
ŽM
23:36
Živojin Mirić
what happens to those currencies when elections pass?
23:36
they are automatically converted to VEO?
Z
23:37
Zack
we use the oracle process to teach the blockchain the outcome.
Then there is a way to make a tx so the smart contract finds out about the oracle result.
then it becomes possible to convert your winning shares into veo.
if that is too complicated, you can just sell your winning shares in the market, and someone else will go through the process of converting them to veo.
Then there is a way to make a tx so the smart contract finds out about the oracle result.
then it becomes possible to convert your winning shares into veo.
if that is too complicated, you can just sell your winning shares in the market, and someone else will go through the process of converting them to veo.
23:37
we can probably set up the light node so it realizes if any of your subcurrencies have resolved, and can be converted to veo, and do it automatically
x
23:54
x
why isn't atomic swap DEX popular? should amoveo be listed there?
23:54
on an atomic swap DEX
8 September 2020
DV
00:56
Denis Voskvitsov
we're working on VEO atomic swaps into corresponding wrapped token on ETH, and vice versa
s
Z
DV
00:57
Denis Voskvitsov
amoveo as is can't be listed on ethereum DEXes due to completely different blockchain.
Z
00:57
Zack
That could be huge
DV
00:57
Denis Voskvitsov
so wrapped token is the only solution.
00:57
In reply to this message
hope so. I think recent contract tx updates would help us to progress in this task.
I
s
C
EA
01:44
Eric Arsenault
😳
01:44
Could we wrap all of the sub currencies as well?
DV
01:45
Denis Voskvitsov
In theory, yes. but we need to start with base VEO at least.
JS
LH
02:11
Lettuce Hans
In reply to this message
Nice! I'm pretty sure CCX team have done the same recently too (similar marketcap to VEO). Definitely a plus
Deleted invited Deleted Account
C
Z
03:07
Zack
200 blocks until the AMM update activates
JS
03:33
Jon Snow
Is this the last major update in the near future?
Z
03:33
Zack
no
03:36
there are 4 near the top of the todo list:
the market swap dust update is coming.
That will allow people to specify that they want to sell all of a certain kind of subcurrency, so in flash loan trades they aren't left holding dust along the way.
we have a couple updates planned to make governance easier. we want to make a couple governance variables that can modify multiple things at once.
So the process of changing the block time can be more simple. it will automatically change the block reward proportionally to maintain the same inflation.
the zero veo accounts update.
changing multi-tx so a flash loan can pay the tx fee.
This way you don't need to own any veo to use amoveo. you can just hold subcurrencies.
the perpetual subcurrency update.
It will allow smart contracts to hold auctions to change their source currency.
So a stablecoin can change its margin to stay financially optimized.
the market swap dust update is coming.
That will allow people to specify that they want to sell all of a certain kind of subcurrency, so in flash loan trades they aren't left holding dust along the way.
we have a couple updates planned to make governance easier. we want to make a couple governance variables that can modify multiple things at once.
So the process of changing the block time can be more simple. it will automatically change the block reward proportionally to maintain the same inflation.
the zero veo accounts update.
changing multi-tx so a flash loan can pay the tx fee.
This way you don't need to own any veo to use amoveo. you can just hold subcurrencies.
the perpetual subcurrency update.
It will allow smart contracts to hold auctions to change their source currency.
So a stablecoin can change its margin to stay financially optimized.
JS
03:40
Jon Snow
Got it. What’s the timeframe you are thinking for those updates?
Z
03:42
Zack
idk on the order yet.
and it depends how much time I need to spend modifying the new AMM light node features in the coming days.
the zero veo accounts update is easiest. maybe like 2 days of work.
market swap is maybe 3 days.
the governance changes are probably 3 days.
the perpetual subcurrency update might be like 2 weeks.
if I just focused on these hard updates, we could do them all pretty quick. But there is a lot of other stuff going on right now.
and it depends how much time I need to spend modifying the new AMM light node features in the coming days.
the zero veo accounts update is easiest. maybe like 2 days of work.
market swap is maybe 3 days.
the governance changes are probably 3 days.
the perpetual subcurrency update might be like 2 weeks.
if I just focused on these hard updates, we could do them all pretty quick. But there is a lot of other stuff going on right now.
JS
03:44
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Yeah, making sure the AMM running smoothly is definitely important as well
A
04:07
AI 🏅
🔥
13:33
Deleted Account
What is the incentive for people to use veo instead of the ETH based defi stuff?
E TS invited E TS
Z
16:31
Zack
In reply to this message
Our oracle is cheaper and more secure. You only need to use it for enforcement, not for creating bets. If participants agree on the outcome, you don't need to post it on chain at all.
Our smart contract system is more optimized for derivatives. You only need to create the contract on chain for enforcement. If participants agree on the outcome, you don't have to publish it on chain at all.
Since the on-chain aspects are only used for enforcement, it is free to make bet offers that aren't matched.
This means trading bots that are constantly adding and removing trade orders in an order book, these kinds of trading bots can be very cheap to operate . Giving us more liquidity.
We were designed for stateless full nodes since day 1, which over time is starting to seem like a more important part of scalability and usability.
Since amoveo blocks can sync in reverse, you can set up a new mining pool in minutes. Full nodes are immediately usable when you turn them on.
Compare this to ethereum, where if a mining pool has to resync, they can lose days.
Amoveo has a culture that makes decisions using futarchy. There is a clear path for the community to make decisions about the direction of the project, without wasting time on propaganda or arguments.
Our smart contract system is more optimized for derivatives. You only need to create the contract on chain for enforcement. If participants agree on the outcome, you don't have to publish it on chain at all.
Since the on-chain aspects are only used for enforcement, it is free to make bet offers that aren't matched.
This means trading bots that are constantly adding and removing trade orders in an order book, these kinds of trading bots can be very cheap to operate . Giving us more liquidity.
We were designed for stateless full nodes since day 1, which over time is starting to seem like a more important part of scalability and usability.
Since amoveo blocks can sync in reverse, you can set up a new mining pool in minutes. Full nodes are immediately usable when you turn them on.
Compare this to ethereum, where if a mining pool has to resync, they can lose days.
Amoveo has a culture that makes decisions using futarchy. There is a clear path for the community to make decisions about the direction of the project, without wasting time on propaganda or arguments.
J
17:10
Josh
Is it possible to make a derivative that's a 200 week moving average of something, like the bitcoin price? That would almost be like a stable coin.
Z
17:15
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/light_node/user_stories.md I wrote about the kinds of processes I imagine people going through when using the light node
17:15
the different kinds of users
C
J
17:44
Josh
In reply to this message
True, I guess the difference is this one historically always went up, pretty slowly and by quite a lot.
K
Z
18:30
Zack
In reply to this message
You can bet on any publicly available number. Including long term average bitcoin prices.
J
18:36
Josh
Could be interesting, I haven't really seen that offered on traditional markets
Z
19:56
Zack
I think the reason on-chain market makers are popular is because it is a way to profit by providing liquidity, without needing a hot wallet.
But this comes with the severe downside that you are giving up control of your investing to an on-chain tool.
How about if we create something with the benefits of both.
We could have smart contracts that are like trade generators.
You use your Veo private key to sign the trade generator, and then you have a different public/private key pair for signing the trades that come out of the generator.
In cold storage you could have some rule like "I want to sell as much of X as can, and the price needs to be better than 2% lower than a particular on-chain market maker"
So then you can use your other key to sign swap offers, but the offers are only valid if they obey the trading strategy that had been written off-chain.
And if there is ever evidence that someone compromised your hot private key, there can be an emergency escape transaction that sends the hot funds back to your cold wallet, and has a higher tx fee than is possible with any other set of txs that can come from the hot account.
But this comes with the severe downside that you are giving up control of your investing to an on-chain tool.
How about if we create something with the benefits of both.
We could have smart contracts that are like trade generators.
You use your Veo private key to sign the trade generator, and then you have a different public/private key pair for signing the trades that come out of the generator.
In cold storage you could have some rule like "I want to sell as much of X as can, and the price needs to be better than 2% lower than a particular on-chain market maker"
So then you can use your other key to sign swap offers, but the offers are only valid if they obey the trading strategy that had been written off-chain.
And if there is ever evidence that someone compromised your hot private key, there can be an emergency escape transaction that sends the hot funds back to your cold wallet, and has a higher tx fee than is possible with any other set of txs that can come from the hot account.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
J
20:55
Josh
Yeah that's like an on-chain HSM
20:55
Could be huge just for security in general.
20:57
You could also have velocity checks. A transaction is only valid if you haven't spent > x veo in the last hour.
Dereek69 invited Dereek69
Z
21:22
Zack
What is hsm?
21:26
The smart contract isn't actually on chain.
I publish a swap offer that can only exist if the contract gets created.
And if you accept a swap under invalid conditions, you lose your money. It is the same as creating a contract that gives me your money, and then depositing your money into it.
I publish a swap offer that can only exist if the contract gets created.
And if you accept a swap under invalid conditions, you lose your money. It is the same as creating a contract that gives me your money, and then depositing your money into it.
21:27
So this way I can have a warm-wallet. With restricted access for trading.
21:28
It's like, you pre-sign a bunch of swap offers from your cold storage.
And these swap offers reference off-chain contract code that specifies the rules under which the swap is valid.
And these swap offers reference off-chain contract code that specifies the rules under which the swap is valid.
21:29
Both my warm wallet, and the person I am trading with, they can both provide evidence to determine how the contract should resolve.
21:31
my contract could specify that I am allowed to sell for down to 3% below some on-chain markets price.
But before I give this offer to someone, I can sign more evidence onto it if I want. Like saying this particular offer is for 5% above the current market price.
It is a valid trade offer which meets the conditions for restricted trading.
But before I give this offer to someone, I can sign more evidence onto it if I want. Like saying this particular offer is for 5% above the current market price.
It is a valid trade offer which meets the conditions for restricted trading.
21:32
I think this is all possible now. It's just a matter of making the smart contracts.
J
21:51
Josh
HSM is hardware security module; it's what banks use to store their private keys. It can be programmed with a ruleset and then it uses the ruleset to sign transactions that are valid. They also have advanced tech so that it's hard to physically tamper with them. On-chain HSM functionality is better because we don't have to worry about anybody tampering with the hardware.
Z
21:51
Zack
Oh yeah, it is similar
J
21:54
Josh
this is really important because it means we don't have to worry so much about hot keys getting hacked
9 September 2020
Z
01:48
Zack
94 blocks until AMM
Alex Walium invited Alex Walium
Z
04:05
Zack
Is there a way to have 2 oracles reference each other, so at least one of them must result in a lying state?
I want to see the oracle mechanisms fight.
I want to see the oracle mechanisms fight.
J
04:07
Josh
but if B is saying A is false, wouldn't people already agree that A is false and not run it? In that case there would be no point in running B either.
Z
04:08
Zack
yeah, it is probably not possible
AW
04:14
Alex Walium
Just stumbled upon Amoveo. In a pile of shitcoins this actually looks really good, I'm intrigued for the first time in a while! Why is this project flying so under the radar?!? Is there anywhere to buy VEO other than HitBTC and qTrade? Just want to incentivize me into looking deeper into this coin.
Z
04:14
Zack
Qtrade seems to be the most popular place to trade
04:15
There is lots of info on the github. You can ask questions here
AW
04:17
Alex Walium
Thanks, I'm doing a dive into github right now. And this quick response made me even more intrigued! Much appreciated!
A
JS
04:49
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
My understanding (I’m just a regular community member full disclosure) is that it was not marketed like other coins, but soon it might be as some major updates are in place for a viable product market fit test.
AW
05:03
Alex Walium
In reply to this message
Thanks, I must say; this looks really promising (like once in a year discovery). I keep looking for the obvious hitch, but I can not find it as of yet. Will be buying a small stake and look into the github further. If the only thing that is missing is marketing this could be a true gem in the making. Not saying that the price is the important metric here, actually I would say that the fact that this has not been hyped or pumped makes it look more legit in my eyes..
JS
05:13
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
People here in the telegram channel are generally pretty helpful with questions that they know answers to and Zack is generally pretty responsive to questions as well. So feel free to ask questions and discuss issues here in this channel (no price discussion as a general rule though).
05:14
Discord has a dedicated price discussion channel
AW
J
05:20
Josh
Welcome, Alex
AW
05:21
Alex Walium
In reply to this message
I truly respect this.
I will not be talking about price here, and a strict practice about this is actually another pro in my opinion.. 😁 Keep up the good work!
I will not be talking about price here, and a strict practice about this is actually another pro in my opinion.. 😁 Keep up the good work!
J
05:28
Josh
Yep, it's small but dedicated
AW
𝑳𝒂𝒖𝒓𝒊𝒂𝒏𝒂 invited 𝑳𝒂𝒖𝒓𝒊𝒂𝒏𝒂
Z
15:14
Zack
In reply to this message
an interesting overview of what tools have been built for blockchain derivatives. it mostly focuses on ethereum stuff.
15:22
around 4 hours until the AMM hard update activates. I guess ill turn off the test node, and switch over the explorers to be connected to the mainnet node.
A
Z
18:57
Zack
4 more blocks
S
19:08
Sy
and ofc...no blocks xD
mx
19:47
mr x
!!?
Z
19:49
Zack
I fixed a bug that was preventing the light node in standalone mode from accessing the unisap.html page.
mx
19:49
mr x
🥳
D
19:53
Devender
Is it done?
Z
19:54
Zack
yes, the AMM update is live
D
Z
19:54
Zack
that is the link for the test node
D
19:55
Is it down?
19:55
Yes test node
Z
19:55
I took down the test node
D
19:55
Devender
Okay
Z
20:02
Zack
im making a market now
20:02
it is to bet on the block hash of block 131000
20:02
so 50-50 odds
20:03
im pretty sure if I sell all my liquidity shares right before 131000, that on average I will earn non-negative profit.
S
20:06
Sy
no new block since then...time to check the logs
x
20:08
x
so what i do there
20:08
so what can i do there
20:08
never tried uniswap before
20:09
no idea how uniswap works
20:10
what is this page for?
Z
20:10
Zack
the idea of on-chain market makers originally came from truthcoin
20:11
a market maker, it has the 2 assets locked up in it, and you can always use the market maker to swap one kind for the other.
20:11
so the market maker always shows a price between the 2 assets
20:11
what im setting up now is a market that is basically betting on a coin flip.
20:12
so you can buy shares of heads or tails, and sell them or trade them
x
20:13
x
ok
20:13
but amoveo don't have subcurrencies
20:13
or assets
Z
20:14
Zack
now it does
20:14
a smart contract defines 2 or more subcurrencies.
20:14
when the smart contract ends, it divides up it's value between it's subcurrencies
mx
20:16
mr x
130700... come on...
mx
20:35
mr x
so something went wrong?
Z
20:36
Zack
yeah, but I think sy an I will have a solution right away
mx
20:36
mr x
ok
x
20:42
x
can other types of assets be added?
20:43
what type of assets can be added
J
20:47
Josh
any bet that will have an easily verified public outcome
Z
20:49
Zack
In reply to this message
I think we already have a solution. it will take like 20 minutes to resync the node, and we will be good to continue.
20:53
sy seems offline haha
20:53
well, once he comes back we will get this sorted right away :)
EA
22:01
Eric Arsenault
it would be nice to see which pair you can trade against
Z
22:02
Zack
the uniswap tool lets you trade any pair
22:02
it finds the best set of market txs to get the best price for your swap
EA
22:02
Eric Arsenault
I know, but it would be nice to have a dropdown showing available pairs
22:03
or bets that people have created
Z
22:03
Zack
It creates a list of the top 10 most popular contracts, and if you click on one, it auto-fills the form
22:03
Give me some time. I'm trying to publish a contract and market
22:04
There are some small technical difficulties. We should be live shortly
22:04
Thank you for your patience.
S
22:11
Sy
My internet decided to take a break xD
Z
22:29
Zack
looks like everything is working normally again :)
22:30
some full nodes may need to be resynced.
22:37
oh, I am resyncing the node conneced to the market interface
22:37
so you can't use the markets until that is done
22:38
You can see in Sy's explorer that the market_new_tx and contract_new_tx got included into a block http://explorer.veopool.pw/index.php?input=130701
22:43
during these technical difficulties, no blocks are being re-wound, and no miners are wasting any of their effort.
22:58
http://159.89.87.58:8080/uniswap.html
ok, now it is ready to make bets
ok, now it is ready to make bets
22:58
I put 20 veo of liquidity into a market
x
22:58
x
can i watch other people's bets
Z
22:59
Zack
http://explorer.veopool.pw/index.php
you can look up txs in recent blocks here.
I am thinking of making a page where you can look up the history of a market. and it will show a graph of how the price of the market changed over time, and another graph of how much liquidity it had over time.
you can look up txs in recent blocks here.
I am thinking of making a page where you can look up the history of a market. and it will show a graph of how the price of the market changed over time, and another graph of how much liquidity it had over time.
23:01
the market I made, it should resolve in about 2 days
23:02
130 blocks per day. 290 blocks away.
s
Z
23:08
Zack
it is a market betting on the outcome of a coin flip
I
EA
23:09
Eric Arsenault
"publish the trade" does this confirm the trade?
Z
23:09
Zack
there is 50-50 odds that either subcurrency 1 or subcurrency 2 will have value
EA
23:09
Eric Arsenault
maybe we should have a more familiar name
s
23:09
sanket
In reply to this message
what are the currency? I still don't get what are we betting onm
EA
23:09
Eric Arsenault
like "SWAP"
23:09
or TRADE
Z
23:10
Zack
block 131000 will happen in a little over 2 days.
we are betting on the hash of that block
we are betting on the hash of that block
23:10
it is a 50-50 odds bet
EA
23:10
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
yeah, maybe we should do something more standard, like BTC price or something
Z
x
23:11
x
existing contracts
"the hash of block 131000 according to this page http://159.89.87.58:8080/explorer.html in hex. it starts with a digit 0-7. it does not start with a digit 8-f."~ buying truebuying false
"the hash of block 131000 according to this page http://159.89.87.58:8080/explorer.html in hex. it starts with a digit 0-7. it does not start with a digit 8-f."~ buying truebuying false
Z
23:12
Zack
I was also thinking the second button should appear only when it is ready, or be greyed out or something
EA
23:12
greyed out is good
Z
x
23:14
x
what does pool mode mean, indeed the design can be improved, for example adding definition of terms below a button
Z
23:15
Zack
In reply to this message
it is an interface for depositing the 2 kinds of currency into a market, so the market can be more liquid.
you receive liquidity shares.
You can use the liquidity shares to withdraw your portion of the pool later, or you can spend them like any other currency.
you receive liquidity shares.
You can use the liquidity shares to withdraw your portion of the pool later, or you can spend them like any other currency.
23:15
if the market is successful, then the trading fees will make your liquidity shares grow in value.
23:16
if either of the 2 currencies goes to zero value, then your liquidity shares will go to zero value as well.
23:16
it is like uniswap
23:17
this is sure a slow block
x
23:17
x
i havent tried uniswap yet, so i saw a lot of new terms
Z
23:18
Zack
the idea is that people want to profit from providing liquidity to markets, but they don't want to leave their private key on a computer that is connected tot he internet.
the on-chain market maker is a way to achieve this.
the on-chain market maker is a way to achieve this.
x
23:19
x
i see
23:21
i mean also "scalar/binary oracle , futarchy oracle" etc if some one new begin to use the light node, they can not understand it so they won't know how to use it
Z
23:21
Zack
yes, it is a work in progress
23:21
there is always room for improvment
x
23:21
x
i see ok
Z
23:22
Zack
but we want to start getting a few users now, so we can talk to them and get a better idea of what is the most important things to deliver.
EA
23:24
Eric Arsenault
We need markets people want to bet on
23:24
I want to be able to short ERC20s for example
Z
23:24
Zack
you can make markets too
EA
23:24
Eric Arsenault
Yeah, that is true
23:25
maybe we can create markets for gas prices on Ethereum, so you can hedge yourself
x
23:25
x
a market for bitcoin, eth, amoveo price seems good to me
23:25
bitcoin price
Z
23:25
Zack
like, a stablecoin?
23:26
a 50-50 bet market is the safest thing to be a market maker for, because the odds wont change.
So I think it is a good place to start.
So I think it is a good place to start.
x
23:26
x
what is max time before a market expire??
Z
23:26
Zack
hopefully someone will want to test it out
23:27
we need this market to get included into a block before anyone can make bets.
x
23:27
x
ok , so we can bet on bitcoin price next year
Z
23:27
Zack
anyway, markets don't expire. contracts do.
23:27
yes, we can bet on the bitcoin price next year.
23:28
but that is risky, the margins might stop making much sense in a few weeks. if veo's price changes a lot.
23:28
for now it is probably better to keep it more short term, until the perpetual stablecoin hard update is activated.
x
23:28
x
i see
23:29
what is the risk with perpetual stablecoin usually
Z
23:32
Zack
the design we are thinking of.
the perpetual stablecoin contract, it has a source currency it is denominated in, a different stablecoin with a fixed margin.
if the source currency's expiration gets near, or if the price moves too near or far from the margin, then the contract holds an auction.
It is currently denominated in stablecoin #1, and it asks for stablecoin #2 which has an expiration further in the future and/or has different margins.
There is an auction, anyone can offer an amount of stablecoin #2 to buy all the stablecoin #1 in the contract. Whoever offers the best price wins.
That is how the contract switches to being denominated in stablecoin #2.
the perpetual stablecoin contract, it has a source currency it is denominated in, a different stablecoin with a fixed margin.
if the source currency's expiration gets near, or if the price moves too near or far from the margin, then the contract holds an auction.
It is currently denominated in stablecoin #1, and it asks for stablecoin #2 which has an expiration further in the future and/or has different margins.
There is an auction, anyone can offer an amount of stablecoin #2 to buy all the stablecoin #1 in the contract. Whoever offers the best price wins.
That is how the contract switches to being denominated in stablecoin #2.
23:33
so each perpetual stablecoin contract could have a maximum rate at which it can react to price shocks, and it will be more expensive to use a stablecoin that can react to bigger price shocks.
23:34
there is a trade off. if the auction is too short, then we can't get the best price.
but if the auction is too long, then the price of stablecoin #1 could keep falling, as the price sinks deeper past the margin.
having a bigger margin means we can have longer auctions without worrying about the price moving so much.
but if the auction is too long, then the price of stablecoin #1 could keep falling, as the price sinks deeper past the margin.
having a bigger margin means we can have longer auctions without worrying about the price moving so much.
23:46
the market got included
23:51
someone made some txs in the market :)
23:53
they traded 0.4 veo.
the fee is 0.2%
so I already earned 0.0008 VEO.
That is well over $0.004 :)
the fee is 0.2%
so I already earned 0.0008 VEO.
That is well over $0.004 :)
KL
23:56
Karlis L
you mentioned some "arbitrage prevention", right? can i read somewhere what exactly is your plan? and is it supposed to solve the "impermanent loss" problem?
Z
23:57
Zack
In reply to this message
in the uniswap tool you choose which currency to spend, and which currency to receive.
If there are multiple ways to achieve this, it will automatically find the optimal mix of markets to participate in to get you the best trade it can.
So, it is avoiding creating arbitrage opportunities, it is avoiding waste by arbitrage.
If there are multiple ways to achieve this, it will automatically find the optimal mix of markets to participate in to get you the best trade it can.
So, it is avoiding creating arbitrage opportunities, it is avoiding waste by arbitrage.
x
Z
23:58
Zack
you can use the "pool" tab on the uniswap page
23:58
if you are going to use a private key with funds, it is safer to download the light node and run it on your own computer
23:59
In reply to this message
oh, you need to own both the subcurrencies in order to depost them into the pool
10 September 2020
Z
00:00
Zack
there is a tool on this page for creating both flavors of currency in the same market http://159.89.87.58:8080/contracts.html
it might be a cheaper way to buy them both, so you can get liquidity.
it might be a cheaper way to buy them both, so you can get liquidity.
00:01
or you can use the uniswap tool and let me collect fees :)
KL
00:01
Karlis L
In reply to this message
thanks!
and how about the impermanent loss? have you brainstormed about that? do you even recognize it as a problem?
and how about the impermanent loss? have you brainstormed about that? do you even recognize it as a problem?
Z
00:01
Zack
what is "impermanent loss"?
KL
00:02
Karlis L
ok, that answers my question I guess:)
i suggest you spend 5-10 min googling about it, will be much more efficient than me trying to explain it here.
i suggest you spend 5-10 min googling about it, will be much more efficient than me trying to explain it here.
x
KL
00:03
Karlis L
it is basically the reason why Curve operates only with stablecoins
Z
00:06
Zack
In reply to this message
oh. you mean how if the price moves a lot in one direction, and stays there, that liquidity providers lose value.
being a liquidity provider is a kind of bet. You are betting that the price will move up and down a lot, but stay in about the same location.
liquidity providers have a dampening effect on the price.
Like any bet, you can lose. If you bet wrong, you lose money.
For this current example, my plan is to withdraw all my liquidity before block 131000, that way I will suffer no impermanent loss.
being a liquidity provider is a kind of bet. You are betting that the price will move up and down a lot, but stay in about the same location.
liquidity providers have a dampening effect on the price.
Like any bet, you can lose. If you bet wrong, you lose money.
For this current example, my plan is to withdraw all my liquidity before block 131000, that way I will suffer no impermanent loss.
I
00:08
Instinct
Zack pulling the rug
mx
00:09
mr x
lol
Z
00:10
Zack
market id: 1mNy85YLtBcKDEKNz3Tu0rvC7sw8nZkrv4JaiXcEL2o=
contract 1: 3if2H3uJBuie4qxP4R6HacQgqYEds7MOIklU1+ojgC0=
type 1: 1
amount 1: 2000237347
cid 2: 3if2H3uJBuie4qxP4R6HacQgqYEds7MOIklU1+ojgC0=
type 2: 2
amount 2: 1999842841
shares: 2000000000
someone made a trade, then mostly undid the trade. now the market has slightly more value, because of the 0.2% trading fee
00:10
my 0.5 cent profit
00:10
the life of a liquidity farmer
mx
00:12
mr x
woah it shows unconfirmed balances of subcurrencies?
Z
00:13
so you get immediate feedback when you make a bet
mx
00:13
mr x
cool
Z
00:13
Zack
someone is buying 0.39 veo of liquidity
00:14
They are going to take some of my fees 😢
mx
00:15
mr x
big markets attract more activity??
MF
00:17
Mr Flintstone
maybe pin the link for now?
Z
00:17
Zack
how big does a coinflip market need to be?
C
00:17
Cresus
Do you have mainnet adress
Z
00:18
Zack
We are having fun with the new market maker tools today:
http://159.89.87.58:8080/uniswap.html
here is the main page to learn about amoveo https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
http://159.89.87.58:8080/uniswap.html
here is the main page to learn about amoveo https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
Mr Flintstone pinned this message
Z
00:21
Zack
trade in my market guys. I want to be a farmer.
00:21
someone traded 0.01 veo.
so the liquidity fee was 0.00002 veo
so the liquidity fee was 0.00002 veo
00:27
I deposited over $1000 of veo of liquidity into this market, this is your chance to bet at nearly 50-50 odds. trustlessly.
mx
00:37
mr x
cannot use contracts.html for binary oracle?
Z
00:39
Zack
I hid the binary derivative stuff for now, because it has 3 subcurrencies and was more complicated to program
mx
00:40
mr x
how did you create the oracle for 131000 hash question?
Z
00:41
Zack
the oracle doesn't exist yet.
I used this page to set up the scalar contract and create the market http://159.89.87.58:8080/contracts.html
I used this page to set up the scalar contract and create the market http://159.89.87.58:8080/contracts.html
mx
00:42
mr x
max value = 1?
Z
00:43
Zack
yes
mx
00:43
mr x
right
Z
00:43
Zack
because it is a 0 or 1 question
mx
00:43
mr x
yes
Z
00:43
Zack
a binary question in a scalar oracle
mx
00:44
mr x
umm
00:45
can use liquidity shares as source currency?
Z
00:45
Zack
yes
00:45
you can use them in markets too
mx
00:46
mr x
ok 😅
00:48
source contract for liquidity shares is market id? type = 1?
Z
00:48
Zack
type = 0
mx
00:48
mr x
ok
Z
00:48
Zack
0 is used for veo and liquidity shares.
1 and higher are for subcurrencies from contracts
1 and higher are for subcurrencies from contracts
00:49
are you making something weird? haha
00:49
a market between kinds of liquidity shares?
mx
00:49
mr x
:P
Z
00:50
Zack
maybe a way to use veo to buy liquidity shares directly could be nice
mx
00:50
mr x
yes
Z
00:50
Zack
also, to use veo to buy liquidity shares for that second market.
00:50
and to use veo to buy shares for the third market.
00:50
then we can start doing markets between those different kinds of liquidity shares
mx
Z
00:54
Zack
We could take one of the 2 coinflip subcurrencies, and make a coinflip contract out of that.
So each of those subcurrencies has 1/4 chance to win
So each of those subcurrencies has 1/4 chance to win
mx
00:55
mr x
was thinking of making coinflip contract of liquidity shares but that wouldnt quite work
Z
00:55
Zack
woah
00:55
so I can gamble while farming
mx
00:56
mr x
but you are guaranteed impermanent loss??
Z
00:57
Zack
we just need the second contract to expire well before the first
mx
00:57
mr x
yes
00:58
putting it after 131000 is self defeating
404•×VitoZackyו invited 404•×VitoZackyו
4
01:25
404•×VitoZackyו
Hi who is the right person to talk here regarding AMA invitation??😊
Z
01:29
Zack
someone made a new contract, but they didn't teach the oracle text to the explorer
01:29
so it isn't appearing
C
01:29
Cresus
Maybe this field shoul be mandatory
Z
01:29
Zack
I think I can make it automatic
01:30
yes
JS
Z
01:37
Zack
Yeah I pm him
Z
03:25
Zack
I feel like it needs to be a lot easier to create a new contract + market + teach it to the server
C
JS
KL
04:10
Karlis L
In reply to this message
if you have time, can you please take a look at this and give your thoughts? https://blog.bancor.network/beginners-guide-to-getting-rekt-by-impermanent-loss-7c9510cb2f22
TOLO invited TOLO
Z
04:26
Zack
In reply to this message
I'm guessing most markets won't start at a price of 50-50.
So if we do all 3 at once, you end up holding a lot of one of the kinds of bets.
So if we do all 3 at once, you end up holding a lot of one of the kinds of bets.
EA
05:28
Eric Arsenault
Have you looked at Balancer Zack? They allow the creation of uniswap like pools with fixed ratios of two assets
05:29
So 70:30 or 50:50 or whatever
Z
05:30
Zack
are they using lmsr instead of constant product market makers?
EA
05:30
Eric Arsenault
I think they are using uniswap formula
Z
05:31
Zack
constant product means the ratio is always changing.
constant ratio means the product is always changing
constant ratio means the product is always changing
05:31
lmsr isn't exactly constant ratio, but it is a lot nearer to that, especially in the limit with small amounts of liquidity.
05:32
I think we need the trading fee to be a lot higher
05:33
our market is way more efficient.
because you can atomically combine creating new subcurrency with a trade, that is a 2x improvement in efficiency.
So less money is moving through the markets. so the fees are very small.
because you can atomically combine creating new subcurrency with a trade, that is a 2x improvement in efficiency.
So less money is moving through the markets. so the fees are very small.
EA
05:41
Eric Arsenault
Maybe I got that wrong
Z
05:49
Zack
im making a smaller market for the BTC/VEO price. to own stable bitcoin on amoveo
Alex invited Alex
T
06:56
Topab
In reply to this message
I don't understand, why it is nice to show unconfirmed balances of subcurrencies?
Israel Adeniyi invited Israel Adeniyi
IA
07:19
Israel Adeniyi
Hi, is there a video on how to start mining veo?
Z
07:22
Zack
there is a mining channel on discord
IA
Z
C Armstrong-F de El McArthur invited C Armstrong-F de El McArthur
mx
11:17
mr x
In reply to this message
should show both so that you know whats about to happen. like with veo balance
s
11:35
sanket
zack, is there a way we have a nice UI so it's easy for us to trade or add liquidity to that market?
11:35
I am too spoilt by the uniswap's interface. It's so easy to use
mx
11:40
mr x
there should be no ID strings of any kind in ui
11:43
contracts.html for >150 iq uniswap.html for <50 iq
TokenMarket.Fit invited TokenMarket.Fit
Knight of the Zanga invited Knight of the Zanga
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
S
19:54
Sy
Always fun to watch the bots play, orders popping left and right on qtrade and no trades happening at all 😝
A
Z
20:12
Zack
I want to see people doing that with Amoveo swap offers. in our off-chain order books.
20:13
A lot of our documentation has become very obsolete
20:14
I did some small changes to the white paper and links.
Brian invited Brian
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
22:00
Zack
http://159.89.87.58:8080/wallet.html
I reorganized the uniswap clone, and renamed it to "simple wallet"
im going to add a tab for creating new contracts with a market
I reorganized the uniswap clone, and renamed it to "simple wallet"
im going to add a tab for creating new contracts with a market
22:03
and a tab for spending.
and a tab for resolving contracts.
and a tab for resolving contracts.
22:03
[swap][pool][create][spend][resolve]
22:04
eventually we will get the order book integrated with the swap interface.
22:05
the resolve interface will abstract all the steps of reporting to the oracle, closing the oracle, reporting to the contract, closing the contract, possibly resolving more contract steps, and withdrawing your winnings from the oracle or contract.
MF
22:49
everything should be abstracted including ID and oracle language. Should only expose it if the user wants to see
22:49
even true/false
Z
23:20
Zack
I think I found a pretty serious bug.
it looks like market liquidity txs can get re-published.
the nonce isn't being used.
it looks like market liquidity txs can get re-published.
the nonce isn't being used.
23:20
if you embed them inside a multi-tx you can solve this temporarily.
Z
23:52
Zack
I updated the light node to prevent anyone from making bad txs that can get replayed, and I wrote a hard update to fix this issue.
23:54
This is the announcement for update number 36. the purpose of this update is to prevent market_liquidity_tx from getting re-published more than once.
This update will activate at block 132850, which is in about 2 weeks.
here is documentation about updating. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//getting-started/updating.md
This update will activate at block 132850, which is in about 2 weeks.
here is documentation about updating. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//getting-started/updating.md
11 September 2020
N
00:00
Nyzblossom
Why there is Oracle price feed from qtrade ? Isn't the idea of AMM is to generate price based on ratio between LP pools
Z
00:05
Zack
In reply to this message
amoveo only has derivatives. there aren't any actual bitcoin inside of amoveo, only contracts priced in veo.
N
00:15
Nyzblossom
In reply to this message
Can veo have derivative on veo difficulty with direct difficulty Oracle from the block header ?
Z
00:18
my tx keeps getting re-published. haha
s
Z
00:21
Zack
the light node wont make any vulnerable txs
00:21
it will take 2 weeks for the hard update to solve the issue.
00:21
but everything is functioning normally now
00:22
if we wrap the market_liquidity_tx inside of a multi-tx, then it completely fixes the issue.
00:22
because the multi-tx has a nonce, so it can't get re-published
00:22
so it is resolved.
Z
00:38
Zack
oh, I think the flash loan is not calculating market_liquidity_tx correctly
00:39
it is doing a negative flash loan, because we use negative numbers to withdraw
C
00:42
Cresus
What do you think about my UI ?
00:43
Oh i cannot send picture here
I
Z
00:45
Zack
I think i can get liquidity withdraws working now by sandwiching them between buying and selling shares in the same market.
To overcome the negative flash loan. Haha
To overcome the negative flash loan. Haha
00:45
I'll set up a hard update soon to fix the negative flash loan bug
MF
00:47
and i will forward it here
00:47
if i can do that
MF
00:49
Mr Flintstone
C
Cresus 11.09.2020 00:49:36
C
00:50
Cresus
Ty
00:50
Give me suggestion if you have
I
00:55
Instinct
Looks good imo
MF
00:57
Mr Flintstone
looks good
00:59
is it just a mockup? i think the math on the sell/receive veo is for exchanging true tokens for false tokens rather than for exchanging veo for true tokens
C
00:59
Cresus
I haven't spent a lot of time on it, I think I could do even better if I really understood how the whole process works but I think that implementing a similar IU would be great because the current one really does "computer scientist interface".
MF
01:07
Mr Flintstone
if you trade 10 true for false, i think you get like 10.1 false. if you trade 10 veo for false, i think you get like 20 false
01:08
false is worth 1 veo if you win and 0 veo if you lose. same with true
x
01:13
x
In reply to this message
yes , UI is crucial, good UI make it clearer and easier for noob to get started
C
JS
Z
01:56
Zack
Looks like we can't use the multi tx this way currently.
01:56
I'm testing a hard update to fix it.
B
02:21
and we need gradients. its a thing in graphic design
Z
02:26
Zack
I think we need to wait another 2 weeks before we can play with the market makers more
02:26
unfortunately this bug can be dangerous in some cases.
02:26
we can do testing on the test node again.
02:27
On the positive side, we have identified 2 major ways to improve the new smart contract system, and on our first day of mainnet testing :)
02:29
I think there is a way to keep doing this on the main net. if we put market liquidity tx inside of multi-tx and put a contract-buy infront of each one.
So you end up holding lots of subcurrency, but that is easy to combine into veo afterwards
So you end up holding lots of subcurrency, but that is easy to combine into veo afterwards
C
J
02:34
Josh
In reply to this message
Definitely an improvement. I would make the numbers friendlier. You can make the numbers bigger with only 3 decimal places and maybe show the exact number if you hover over the number.
Z
02:35
Zack
In reply to this message
so, this kind of works. but you can only sell 1/2 of your liquidity shares per tx.
02:35
I guess we can keep doing testing on the main net, just lets keep people away from the pool part for now
C
J
02:50
Josh
thanks for the work on this!
Z
02:50
Zack
so far we found 3 major bugs in the market liquidity tx.
it was one of the simplest txs for the update.
Maybe that is why I didn't pay enough attention to it.
it was one of the simplest txs for the update.
Maybe that is why I didn't pay enough attention to it.
Alex invited Alex
K
03:18
K
Does Exante have an estimate date as to when they'll finish the bridge?
03:19
How difficult is it to implement a VEO ETH bridge?
Z
DV
04:12
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
Exantech, not EXANTE. unfortunately, no ETA yet, once I have smth I'll announce it in the very same moment.
yep, it's quite complicated task to do, especially in trustless manner.
yep, it's quite complicated task to do, especially in trustless manner.
K
Mr Choudhry invited Mr Choudhry
Z
05:27
Zack
im making a soft fork to prevent the market_liquidity_tx from getting re-published, so we don't have to wait 2 weeks to use the AMM tools normally.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
09:55
Topab
This may be interesting to read https://twitter.com/ambergroup_io/status/1303864903761981440
T
11:29
Topab
Something interesting here about Discreet Log Contracts and oracles in Bitcoin https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/lightning-network-designer-re-inventing-bitcoin-smart-contracts First Bitcoin DLC Hits Mainnet
The first-ever Discreet Log Contract (DLC) has gone live on Bitcoin’s mainnet, allowing two parties to create a monetary contract that will redistribute their funds based on preset conditions, without revealing details of those conditions to the blockchain. Specifically, the DLC has been set up between BTCPay Server Nicolas Dorier and Chris Stewart, founder of Suredbits, which has been working on DLC implementation on Bitcoin. The two have bet 1 BTC on the outcome of the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election.
The first-ever Discreet Log Contract (DLC) has gone live on Bitcoin’s mainnet, allowing two parties to create a monetary contract that will redistribute their funds based on preset conditions, without revealing details of those conditions to the blockchain. Specifically, the DLC has been set up between BTCPay Server Nicolas Dorier and Chris Stewart, founder of Suredbits, which has been working on DLC implementation on Bitcoin. The two have bet 1 BTC on the outcome of the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election.
mx
13:44
mr x
"DLCs are a tech for implementing a trusted 3rd party oracle, but it does nothing to solve “The Oracle Problem” (ie, ensuring an honest answer). The closest it gets to Oracle Tech, is to endorse a theory that “the Oracle is less likely to lie, if they cannot observe how their Report will be used” – a de minimis theory, and probably not even true. (8/27/2020)" https://www.truthcoin.info/reviews/
T
14:00
Topab
Yes, it does not solve the oracle problem. Being Amoveo the the most trustless and cheaper oracle, those bets in Bitcoin could be resolved with amoveo oracle in case of conflict
Z
16:27
Zack
Should I apply for ycombinator?
H
16:47
Hoshi
Yes
S
20:22
Sy
The next fakezack - beware everyone
Z
20:33
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/commit/13bf65c0cdb497282569298bcb1526ebe8e3a1d4
I wrote a soft fork so we can start using the markets sooner.
I wrote a soft fork so we can start using the markets sooner.
S
20:43
Sy
😂
Z
20:47
Zack
http://159.89.87.58:8080/wallet.html almost all the contract ids are gone now.
even in the drop-down, it embeds part of the oracle text.
even in the drop-down, it embeds part of the oracle text.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
OK
22:23
O K
Fake Zack tryna snack your veocitos
squzl invited squzl
12 September 2020
Z
00:11
create combines all the steps. making a market. buying shares in it. creating the market. depositing initial liquidity. teaching the oracle question to the server.
00:11
spend give you a drop-down of the available currencies for spending, and has a button to look up the max amount that you can spend.
x
Z
00:32
Zack
one big thing missing from wallet.html is a way to combine different kinds of subcurrency back into their source or into veo
00:32
maybe the liquidity tool should do that, if possible.
00:32
if markets exist then you can use them
x
00:34
x
and Those in power benefit so much from coruption, I think they will ban amoveo if it's become that popular, they never wanto lose their power
00:36
google for example can easily manipulate people's opinions if they want to. google is able to run ad campaigns everywhere to manipulate results of prediction market if they want to
MF
Z
00:39
Zack
In reply to this message
The beauty of prediction markets is that they work even if the majority doesn't participate or believe.
mx
00:41
mr x
im trying to sell liquidity shares in 131000 but get server rejected tx
x
mx
Z
00:43
Zack
In reply to this message
you have to sell less than half at a time.
Sy is going to do the soft fork tomorrow to fix this.
Sy is going to do the soft fork tomorrow to fix this.
mx
00:43
mr x
all right
I
mx
00:45
mr x
hmm still rejected
Z
00:46
Zack
are you using wallet.html?
mx
00:46
mr x
yes
Z
00:46
Zack
all the headers are synced?
mx
00:46
mr x
ya
00:46
130982
Z
00:47
Zack
you type a negative number to sell. it is in units of veo.
mx
00:47
mr x
-0.19
00:47
i have 0.39 total
Z
00:50
Zack
oh right.
It is also doing a negative flash loan.
in order to receive 0.19 units of each subcurrency, you need to already have the 0.19 units.
So you can buy 0.19 from the subcurrency_set_buy tool in contract.html.
then you can withdraw from your liquidity half at a time.
It is also doing a negative flash loan.
in order to receive 0.19 units of each subcurrency, you need to already have the 0.19 units.
So you can buy 0.19 from the subcurrency_set_buy tool in contract.html.
then you can withdraw from your liquidity half at a time.
00:51
thanks for your patience with the complications.
This is the best we can do until the soft update tomorrow
This is the best we can do until the soft update tomorrow
mx
00:52
mr x
haha ok lets do this before 131000
Z
00:53
Zack
17 blocks. that is about 3 hours away.
x
01:27
does this work now? is there any cost for start a binary oracle? if i start one, and don't advertise it will people know?
Z
01:29
Zack
You can make oracles that way.
The uniswap tool doesn't know how to optimize trades made using non-standard contracts
The uniswap tool doesn't know how to optimize trades made using non-standard contracts
mx
02:23
mr x
So whos going to judge sztorc krawisz debate 🤔
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
02:32
Zack
lets train the new AI text generator using text that other judges have said in similar debates
mx
02:45
mr x
putting krawisz writing through gpt-3 could produce great insight
Z
02:47
Zack
if they each made a concrete plan for some goal, we could ask futarchy which plan has a higher probability of achieving the goal.
EA
04:11
Eric Arsenault
VEO price movement looking 🔥
Deleted invited Deleted Account
JS
05:03
Augur is also building an AMM
Z
05:14
Zack
ive been thinking about how to do the swap tool for binary contracts that involve a "bad question" outcome.
I think the trick is to have 2 markets. one between true and false, and one between bad_question and the source currency.
Then the path finding algorithm has very few cases to check, and we have access to every kind of swap we can want to do.
I think the trick is to have 2 markets. one between true and false, and one between bad_question and the source currency.
Then the path finding algorithm has very few cases to check, and we have access to every kind of swap we can want to do.
05:14
It might also be a good idea to always assume that for scalar contracts, that the market is between true and false.
that one case can solve every possible path, and then the path finder algorithm can be simpler.
that one case can solve every possible path, and then the path finder algorithm can be simpler.
05:15
we need to think about this more, and calculate whether these simplifications will negatively impact the liquidity efficiency.
Z
07:06
Zack
If a contract starts at a price other than 50-50, and you don't want to hold stake in either direction, you just want to hold liquidity shares, then you need to make 2 markets.
One between the subcurrencies, and one between the higher priced subcurrency and Veo.
One between the subcurrencies, and one between the higher priced subcurrency and Veo.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
T
mx
16:37
mr x
"That said, decision markets can only solve some problems; in particular, they cannot tell us what variables we should be optimizing for in the first place." Just optimize for hash rate and you get trustless onchain governance!?
Z
17:24
In reply to this message
According to evolution, we either expand or die.
Seems like if we optimize futarchy for anything other than growth, we would lose against projects that only optimize for growth.
Seems like if we optimize futarchy for anything other than growth, we would lose against projects that only optimize for growth.
mx
17:24
mr x
Exactly
17:24
Imagine worrying about what the goal should be when there is only one
Z
17:25
Zack
It still isn't clear if price or market cap or hashrate is the ideal way to measure growth rate
mx
17:25
mr x
yeah...
17:25
are they the same?
Z
17:26
Zack
Maybe. I think it will become clearer with time.
mx
17:26
mr x
yup
17:26
and are they the same with coin price?
17:27
hash rate is the oracle you get for free
Z
17:37
Zack
In reply to this message
Hahaha
Modeling an Oracle as a continuous price feed is a hilariously bad idea.
Not only does it fail at reporting truth to the blockchain, it is also very expensive to be constantly publishing consensus level data.
Somehow this joke has become the standard that people imagine when they think of an Oracle.
Modeling an Oracle as a continuous price feed is a hilariously bad idea.
Not only does it fail at reporting truth to the blockchain, it is also very expensive to be constantly publishing consensus level data.
Somehow this joke has become the standard that people imagine when they think of an Oracle.
Z
18:36
Zack
Sy did soft update 38.
So now we can do market_liquidity_tx normally again, without worrying that they will get re-published.
So now we can do market_liquidity_tx normally again, without worrying that they will get re-published.
18:37
im putting the light node back to normal now.
18:38
I tested it out now. I was able to sell all my liquidity in a market.
Z
18:53
Zack
what if we deleted like 0.1% of veo transfered, every time the value moves from one pubkey to another?
19:00
if more coins get deleted, it makes the remaining coins more valuable
19:01
if Amoveo is a monopoly, we should charge as much as transferring value is worth to the person. which would probably be a fraction of the amount sent.
If Amoveo is not a monopoly, we should charge as much as it costs to process the tx. which would probably be a flat fee per tx.
If Amoveo is not a monopoly, we should charge as much as it costs to process the tx. which would probably be a flat fee per tx.
19:02
I guess we aren't a monopoly. people could hold synthetic VEO on some other blockchain, and spend those on that other blockchain to avoid our extra fee.
19:03
so I guess a flat fee is better for now. but I am not very confident in this.
[
Z
19:27
Zack
well, I guess if a fraction fee was better, someone more knowledgeable about that than me could make a futarchy market to demonstrate to the rest of us.
CM invited CM
20:39
Governments are already getting very afraid.
Z
20:53
Zack
The more strict the regulations, the better it is for Amoveo.
Broken mechanisms can look secure for a long time, if there is no one attacking them.
Broken mechanisms can look secure for a long time, if there is no one attacking them.
J
20:55
Josh
Yep
Z
21:00
Zack
I found some race condition in tx_pool_feeder.
21:00
it is a really old module, so im doing a pretty major re-write.
cancaB invited cancaB
JS
21:53
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Maybe delete the coins in the burn address first during next hard update?
13 September 2020
K
uk
01:56
umburloko kendai
its a bad idea. Just incentivizing leaving the coins in the exchange
JS
EA
03:58
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
feels like we should find PMF first, worry about token value mechanism after
C
09:39
Cresus
Do you have good documentation about oracle for a noob
L invited L
Georg invited Georg
Z
14:37
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//design/oracle.md
Also, feel free to ask questions about the Oracle here.
Also, feel free to ask questions about the Oracle here.
A
Z
17:21
Zack
I made an update, and im not sure whether to announce this as a hard update, or to treat it as a soft update, or what.
It doesn't change any protocol rules. It changes how we interpret merkle trees slightly, so that if there is a bug in how the transaction is implemented, it can prevent that other bug from being exploited.
If there is no bug in the transaction implementation, then this update changes nothing.
If there is a bug, then this is possibly a soft fork.
It doesn't change any protocol rules. It changes how we interpret merkle trees slightly, so that if there is a bug in how the transaction is implemented, it can prevent that other bug from being exploited.
If there is no bug in the transaction implementation, then this update changes nothing.
If there is a bug, then this is possibly a soft fork.
17:36
I can remove so many sleep statments from tests now that the tx_pool_feeder doesn't have that race condition :)
17:36
faster tests means everything happens faster.
C
Z
17:44
Zack
Announcing hard update 39. (maybe not a hard update). Now when we are processing txs, the database of state for processing each tx, it can distinguish between a proof of non-existence, and the non-existence of a proof. This prevents certain kinds of exploits. No vulnerabilities were found, this update decreases the odds that a vulnerability exists.
This update will activate at block 133240, which is in about 2 weeks.
Here is documentation about updating https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//getting-started/updating.md
it is the same process as always.
This update will activate at block 133240, which is in about 2 weeks.
Here is documentation about updating https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//getting-started/updating.md
it is the same process as always.
17:49
im looking at our plan for doing txs without veo.
17:49
I think having 0 veo should work ok, but you still need an account in the database.
The account stores a nonce so that your tx can't get re-published.
The account stores a nonce so that your tx can't get re-published.
K
18:43
K
How limited are Amoveo smart contracts? Can you build lending platforms or DEX's?
Z
18:44
Zack
we have both already
18:44
although, I think using the word "lending" in the context of blockchain is very misleading.
They should be called "derivatives".
They should be called "derivatives".
Z
19:07
Zack
Announcing hard update 40.
the purpose of this update is to allow accounts to exist without any veo.
They can pay tx fees using flash loans.
They need to buy enough veo during the tx to cover the loan.
This update will activate on block 133250, which is in about 2 weeks.
here is the documentation related to updating https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//getting-started/updating.md it is the same as usual.
the purpose of this update is to allow accounts to exist without any veo.
They can pay tx fees using flash loans.
They need to buy enough veo during the tx to cover the loan.
This update will activate on block 133250, which is in about 2 weeks.
here is the documentation related to updating https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//getting-started/updating.md it is the same as usual.
Z
19:38
Zack
I found a bug where market_swap_tx can get re-published.
19:39
as long as they are inside a multi-tx, it isn't an issue.
19:40
ill update the light node to prevent making bad tx, and set up a hard update to fix this.
19:46
I also wrote a hard update to fix this, as well as a hard update to solve dust issues for market swap txs.
So I am going to combine them both into hard update 41. since they are the same tx.
So I am going to combine them both into hard update 41. since they are the same tx.
Z
20:42
Zack
This is the announcement for hard update 41.
The purpose of this update is so that market_swap_tx wont leave so much dust behind.
If you try to spend more than how much you have, instead of failing it will just spend all you have.
This means the tx is less likely to fail because market prices moved.
Also this hard update will fix an issue with market_swap_tx which was allowing the same tx to get published more than once.
It will activate on block 133260, which is in about 2 weeks. here is the documentation related to updating https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//getting-started/updating.md it is the same as usual.
The purpose of this update is so that market_swap_tx wont leave so much dust behind.
If you try to spend more than how much you have, instead of failing it will just spend all you have.
This means the tx is less likely to fail because market prices moved.
Also this hard update will fix an issue with market_swap_tx which was allowing the same tx to get published more than once.
It will activate on block 133260, which is in about 2 weeks. here is the documentation related to updating https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//getting-started/updating.md it is the same as usual.
dave invited dave
14 September 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
00:54
Zack
If you create a new contract with an initial price of 50-50, then it makes sense that most of the liquidity should be in the market between the 2 new subcurrencies.
but if the initial price is 90-10, then it is most efficient if most of the liquidity is between the more valuable subcurrency, and the source currency.
but if the initial price is 90-10, then it is most efficient if most of the liquidity is between the more valuable subcurrency, and the source currency.
00:54
that way the market creator isn't required to be a trader.
00:55
im trying to calculate how much money to put in each market based on the initial price. I have a feeling this is another quadratic equation situation.
N
01:20
Nyzblossom
So in amoveo all derivatives are priced and settled in veo coins , and paged to the asset they represent by Oracle price feed . Is that correct ?
Z
01:21
Zack
"oracle price feed"
nothing like that could be secure.
nothing like that could be secure.
01:21
amoveo has a secure oracle. not a trusted feed
01:21
you can make smart contract priced in the currencies defined by other smart contracts.
N
01:23
Nyzblossom
Ok secure Oracle
Z
01:27
Zack
The oracle system is not a market. It is an oracle.
We also have an automatic market maker, which is a market.
And we allow you to make offers to swap any subcurrency for any other, and anyone can accept your offer to do the swap. the offers stay off-chain unless they are matched. So unmatched offers are free. These limit orders are also a market.
We also have an automatic market maker, which is a market.
And we allow you to make offers to swap any subcurrency for any other, and anyone can accept your offer to do the swap. the offers stay off-chain unless they are matched. So unmatched offers are free. These limit orders are also a market.
N
01:29
Nyzblossom
Subcurrencies what are this exactly actual other blockchains coins ?
Z
01:31
Zack
An amoveo smart contract defines 2 or more subcurrencies. when the smart contract ends, it distributes the value stored inside of it to the holders of the different subcurrencies.
So we could bet on a football game, and I could hold tokens that will be valuable if my preferred team wins, and you could hold tokens that are valuable if my team loses.
You can deposit the source currency into a contract to produce all the subcurrencies together, or you can combine all kinds of subcurrency to get the source currency out.
So we could bet on a football game, and I could hold tokens that will be valuable if my preferred team wins, and you could hold tokens that are valuable if my team loses.
You can deposit the source currency into a contract to produce all the subcurrencies together, or you can combine all kinds of subcurrency to get the source currency out.
01:32
so if our bet is priced in USD stablecoins, and you sent me your tokens that are valuable if I lose.
I could combine the 2 kinds of tokens together and withdraw the USD stablecoins, even if the football game hasn't finished.
I could combine the 2 kinds of tokens together and withdraw the USD stablecoins, even if the football game hasn't finished.
01:33
in finance language, each subcurrency is letting you hold a financial derivative contract.
But it is also spendable and fungible and divisible, like a currency.
But it is also spendable and fungible and divisible, like a currency.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
03:40
Zack
I updated the create tab.
Now if you are using Veo to create a new contract, and the initial price is not 50-50, it doesn't leave you holding some of the more valuable kind of shares.
It creates 2 markets, and completely uses your veo to give you liquidity shares.
Now if you are using Veo to create a new contract, and the initial price is not 50-50, it doesn't leave you holding some of the more valuable kind of shares.
It creates 2 markets, and completely uses your veo to give you liquidity shares.
03:45
the algebra was actually kind of intense. 4 equations with 4 unknowns.
03:45
but no quadratic equation.
03:46
I wrote my work as a comment here https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo/blob/master/src/js/create_tab_builder.js#L92
MF
04:22
Mr Flintstone
does it teach the server the oracle as well?
Z
04:23
Zack
yes
Garbonzo invited Garbonzo
Z
14:46
Zack
I think the new create is creating contracts that aren't getting scanned correctly by the explorer because it is inside of a multi-tx.
so it isn't appearing in the wallet
so it isn't appearing in the wallet
14:48
oh, restarting the explorer seemed to fix it.
14:48
maybe I needed to activate a software update
Z
15:05
Zack
http://159.89.87.58:8080/wallet.html I fixed a bug in the pool tab that was preventing markets involving veo from being displayed.
Z
15:24
Zack
I think there is a divide by zero error, where if you sell every liquidity share in a market, the price becomes undefined, and it becomes impossible to use it any more.
Z
15:41
Zack
looks like the fix is a soft fork
15:50
I merged the soft update fix.
Z
20:16
Zack
I want to get it syncing in reverse by default.
This will make it a lot easier to run mining pools and exchanges.
If something goes wrong with the node, you can have a new one running in less than a minute.
This will make it a lot easier to run mining pools and exchanges.
If something goes wrong with the node, you can have a new one running in less than a minute.
Z
20:46
Zack
I synced a checkpoint, and now I am simultaneously syncing blocks forwards and backwards in history from that point.
Z
21:23
Zack
before block 108000 or so, there were some errors that caused a handful of blocks to not be compliant with the memory-less full node strategy.
So syncing those blocks in reverse is a challenge.
I can hard code an exception for every block that is not normal.
but I am considering setting a block around 108000 as the earliest point worth syncing backwards towards. I think it is more than 4 months in the past.
So syncing those blocks in reverse is a challenge.
I can hard code an exception for every block that is not normal.
but I am considering setting a block around 108000 as the earliest point worth syncing backwards towards. I think it is more than 4 months in the past.
21:25
or maybe ill download the old blocks, and check that they have enough pow and match the header, but I wont worry if they produce slightly different output from the first time.
That way all the blocks are available to be downloaded.
That way all the blocks are available to be downloaded.
Z
21:49
Zack
syncing in reverse seems to work pretty well. the only drawback is that you can't pause and continue.
You can halt it part way through, and then you are left not knowing some of the earliest blocks. so your node is like, in between being a full and light node.
You can halt it part way through, and then you are left not knowing some of the earliest blocks. so your node is like, in between being a full and light node.
Z
22:23
Zack
I went with a compromise.
It processes txs in old blocks and checks signatures and checks that everything is valid.
the only step it skips is verifying that the merkle state root produced from one block matches the one that produces the next.
after block 109000 it does this check as well.
It processes txs in old blocks and checks signatures and checks that everything is valid.
the only step it skips is verifying that the merkle state root produced from one block matches the one that produces the next.
after block 109000 it does this check as well.
J
22:28
Josh
sounds good
MF
23:09
Mr Flintstone
“Amoveo is worth more than $200 for at least one trade on qtrade.io, before September 15 2020. "
23:10
this would probably attract more volume if you replaced amoveo with veo
23:10
and saying after X date
23:11
feels like a poyo question
mx
23:23
mr x
also fee 0.015 and volume 0.1 :P
23:23
yeah standardized oracle language
23:24
and rid of verbosity everywhere
MF
23:24
Mr Flintstone
i made a template for this exact reason 1 second
23:24
it is somewhere in this chat
mx
23:24
mr x
yeah
MF
23:26
something like this
23:29
then the UI flags any oracle outside the standard
J
23:41
Josh
that can also be automatically formatted into human language
23:41
for display
mx
23:41
mr x
just have ticker and price?
J
23:43
Josh
ticker can incorporate source and destination currencies: VEOUSD
23:43
but we still need exchange and expiration date
mx
23:43
mr x
yes
J
23:44
Josh
i wish we could get around using one exchange, single point of failure
23:44
and easy to manipulate
MF
23:45
the js recognized the oracle language format then parsed the variables
mx
23:46
mr x
noone likes reading, simple description and buttons and people will get the rules of the game pretty quickly??
MF
23:46
Mr Flintstone
even if amoveo only references exchange prints it is still unstoppable. you can trade cme without needing docs, qib status etc
J
23:46
Josh
yep, it's also good for making nice input forms and nicely formatted html and css, separating the different parts
MF
23:47
Mr Flintstone
spot markets will always exist outside amoveo
J
23:48
Josh
if amoveo is better, why would we use cme?
MF
23:49
Mr Flintstone
i meant more like the same instruments
Z
23:50
Zack
if we are betting on the price of gold, we could reference the price in a market that has actual physical gold.
MF
23:50
Mr Flintstone
cme uses spot index prints to settle contracts iirc. so like whatever S&P says the sp500 index ended at for a day
J
23:51
Josh
but s&p is in charge of that index. qtrade isn't in charge of the veo price
MF
23:53
Mr Flintstone
they dont control the spot prices underlying the index or the weights directly. they only control what is in it
J
23:53
Josh
but people trust them as the arbiter of the s&p index value
23:56
even that's probably not a good thing
Mara Folgory invited Mara Folgory
15 September 2020
MF
01:15
Mr Flintstone
whats the best way to know if an election is contested
01:16
specifically usa
01:19
looks like jan 6 joint session of us congress is where electoral votes are counted
01:19
but i feel like you could have an ugly contested election and still get enough electoral votes by then
01:22
Dec 14 is when electors cast ballots
01:27
"by the end of december 14 2020 a candidate for the 2020 US election for presidency will have received 270 electoral votes"
Z
02:37
Zack
If I swap out a bunch of variable names in the amoveo code base to be racist/sexist/nationalist terms, that will make us more controversial, right?
mx
03:00
mr x
Sure. Project was named after hand sanitizer because we are obsessed with purity ayway.
J
03:05
Josh
i think using binary trees is intolerant of the spectrum
J
06:26
Zack is the goal of amm to compete with uniswap? Will you be able to use any coins? What's the vision?
Z
06:34
Zack
Amoveo is a blockchain for financial derivatives.
It seems like people like to use constant product market makers to trade derivatives.
It seems like people like to use constant product market makers to trade derivatives.
JS
12:29
Jon Snow
Some interesting development from Augur
Z
JS
mx
23:50
mr x
links from https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/getting-started/turn_it_on.md give bunch of 404s
16 September 2020
C
01:02
Cresus
Who made the amoveo bet website ?
J
01:03
looks like getting-started is doubled
R
J
I
Z
01:09
Zack
In reply to this message
thanks for the heads up. I got it.
A lot of the documentation needs to be fixed up or deleted.
A lot of the documentation needs to be fixed up or deleted.
C
I
01:10
Instinct
Ah thought it was something else
C
01:10
Cresus
I mean it is a good website
01:10
@zack_amoveo when futarchy will be release ?
Z
01:11
Zack
you can already use amoveo for futarchy.
It will keep becoming a better platform for futarchy as we learn and add features.
It will keep becoming a better platform for futarchy as we learn and add features.
C
01:11
Cresus
Ok great
mx
T
03:59
Topab
What do you think about this trend in NFT? https://twitter.com/Privatechad_/status/1305860055204589568?s=19
Z
07:36
Zack
I think that financial derivatives are the important application to focus on.
Z
08:37
Zack
http://159.89.87.58:8080/wallet.html
I made a sub-tab in [create] for formatted scalar coin contracts. something @mr_flintstone has been asking for.
I made a sub-tab in [create] for formatted scalar coin contracts. something @mr_flintstone has been asking for.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
19:15
Zack
https://twitter.com/koeppelmann/status/1306189086886068224?s=20
Martin Koeppelmann seems to think an exit fee is a good thing
Martin Koeppelmann seems to think an exit fee is a good thing
Z
21:09
Zack
I fixed some issues in the new wallet related to populating the list of currencies that you can spend from.
mx
22:41
mr x
Not possible to buy liquidity at the moment?
Z
22:42
Zack
it should be possible
22:42
do you own both kinds of subcurrency needed?
mx
22:42
mr x
ah right
Z
22:43
Zack
im going to add a better error message for this
17 September 2020
EA
01:32
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
I think this is specifically to address the problems of yield farming
Z
01:32
Zack
In reply to this message
Or maybe I'll just set it up to use Veo to buy the currencies as needed.
mx
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
VE
18:25
VV Enth
guys what wallet can we use for veo?
I
Z
21:21
Zack
if we are going to let people use veo to deposit into a market, then that means they will be doing a contract-set-buy, which gives them the same amount of each subcurrency in that contract.
If they they want to convert some veo into liquidity shares, without being left holding subcurrency, and without changing the price in any market, then that means they need to deposit in at least 2 different markets inside each contract.
So I am thinking for the liquidity page, maybe I should be displaying smart contracts, not markets.
It should automatically combine the markets as necessary to allow you to deposit liquidity into markets.
If they they want to convert some veo into liquidity shares, without being left holding subcurrency, and without changing the price in any market, then that means they need to deposit in at least 2 different markets inside each contract.
So I am thinking for the liquidity page, maybe I should be displaying smart contracts, not markets.
It should automatically combine the markets as necessary to allow you to deposit liquidity into markets.
21:22
if people want to make markets between two curencies that are not from the same smart contract, they can use the contracts.html page for that.
21:23
http://159.89.87.58:8080/wallet.html?hide_non_standard=true
I set up a configuration option to hide the non-standard contracts.
standard contracts can be represented with a short ticker.
I set up a configuration option to hide the non-standard contracts.
standard contracts can be represented with a short ticker.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
VE
18 September 2020
mx
Z
MF
01:54
Mr Flintstone
and liquidity
Z
MF
01:56
Mr Flintstone
if “existing contracts” are going to be put into the “currency to be paid in” dropdown probably should be somewhere else
01:56
but having an explorer is nice as well
Z
01:58
Zack
oh right. maybe it is better to keep the ticket text small for the dropdown, and have price info appear after you select one
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
17:12
Zack
im looking at an alternative way to find the optimal set of trades.
17:12
matrix strategy.
contract1 - typeA, typeB
market1 - C1A, C1B
market2 - C1A, veo
veo C1A C1B
C1 -1 1 1
M1 0 -1 (A*B)/(A+1)
M2 (A*V)/(A+1) -1 0