Amoveo ♥🧿
22 August 2020
MF
07:19
Mr Flintstone
Fork
ŽM
07:19
Živojin Mirić
But if majority supports it then its not false
07:20
Because that's the measure of truth
07:20
Truth is measured by the volume of money behind it?
Z
07:20
Zack
Sometimes the world at large believes false things.
ŽM
07:20
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
Exactly
07:20
That's whats bothering me
Z
07:21
Zack
You can only bet on facts that have definition within some concrete narrative.
ŽM
07:21
Živojin Mirić
Ok whats not concrete with a result of a football match?
Z
07:21
Zack
We don't know almost anything directly.
We just believe what our tribe tells us to. We bet on that.
ŽM
07:21
Živojin Mirić
That could not be simple enough
07:22
What will be the input to amoveo that my bet is the winning bet
Z
07:22
Zack
We can bet on what the tribe will tell us to believe.
That is the only reality available anyway.
ŽM
07:22
Živojin Mirić
If the opposing side has more money on the false result?
MF
07:23
Mr Flintstone
there will be a fork where you win
07:23
That is how the incentives are supposed to play out
ŽM
07:23
Živojin Mirić
And if im the only one that thinks that im correct
EA
07:23
Eric Arsenault
people will want to place bets on the truthful chain
ŽM
07:23
Živojin Mirić
I will be on my chain alone
07:23
Cursing god and the sky
07:23
Knowing the truth
07:24
But betrayed
MF
07:24
Mr Flintstone
sounds like you need to be good at knowing things that are correct in order to participate in amoveo
ŽM
07:24
Živojin Mirić
I know something is correct
MF
07:24
Mr Flintstone
a high bar
ŽM
07:24
Živojin Mirić
And most of people conspire
07:24
To bet against me
07:24
And I lose
07:24
They get the money
07:24
My fork is a lonely fork
07:25
And I kill myself because lies took my money
07:25
And that's ok
MF
07:25
Mr Flintstone
if your fork is a lonely fork sounds like you need to do a better job of understanding who won a football game
ŽM
07:25
Živojin Mirić
The result is clear
Z
07:25
Zack
The past is gone. We can't know what really happened.

Anyway, oracles arent about the past.
They are for the future.

We can use markets and oracles to reveal true facts about the future. To help us prepare for the future.

You can't control the narrative of the past.
ŽM
07:26
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
Ok I will skip a couple of arguments to get to the point
Z
07:26
Zack
But you can gain information to prepare for the future
ŽM
07:26
Živojin Mirić
If I bet on an universl truth
07:27
For example some pyhsics rule that works in our whole known universe
07:27
And someone bets that its not true
07:28
And puts a lot of money in that false claim
07:28
Amoveo will claim thats true
07:28
And I should make a fork and count on people to support me
07:28
???
MF
07:28
Mr Flintstone
you probably wouldnt need to
07:29
a very large bet on something false is an opportunity for someone to double their money, and more people would come bet on the truth
07:29
it takes 1 week to finalize so that should be enough time to spread the news
ŽM
07:29
Živojin Mirić
I dont care about probability, when Zack was talking about PoS corruption vulnerability it was in the same scope of possibilities as this
07:30
In reply to this message
What if its not enough time and most of the users bet on false?
07:30
Who will know the truth?
07:30
Where is the exact border of truth and reality
07:31
It only matters on who has more money to spread their "truth"
MF
07:31
Mr Flintstone
when you are betting on amoveo, it is closer to betting on what a community believes is true versus what is actually true
ŽM
07:31
Živojin Mirić
So its not an Oracle
07:31
Its just a cult
07:31
You depend on a community of PEOPLE that are flawed by nature
EA
07:31
Eric Arsenault
all of the oracle solution are like that... did you follow the bet on Omen that got escalated?
ŽM
07:32
Živojin Mirić
I dont care, I care about amoveo
07:32
I though this is based on math not on feelings of a group of people
MF
07:33
Mr Flintstone
you dont have to believe the arguments
07:34
if there are market prices for things enforced by amoveo oracles, then the market is saying the amoveo oracles probably work
ŽM
07:34
Živojin Mirić
I would be persuaded by real arguments
07:34
You are talking about feelings and community
07:34
And those are flawed by definition
MF
07:35
Mr Flintstone
If that is true we wont be able to have things priced well, since at the end of the day things are priced based on what the oracle reports
EA
07:35
Eric Arsenault
oracles depend on some form of reporting. software couldn't tell us who won a game.
ŽM
07:35
Živojin Mirić
In that world Galileo would never be right
MF
07:35
Mr Flintstone
but we will find out shortly if we can have well priced subcurrencies
ŽM
07:35
Živojin Mirić
You are skipping ahead
JS
07:35
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
It is based on game theory
ŽM
07:35
Živojin Mirić
I dont care about that
MF
07:36
Mr Flintstone
you dont care if it works?
07:36
like that is evidence it works
ŽM
07:36
Živojin Mirić
What is evidence? Most people bet on something so it must be true?
07:36
Thats no evidence
MF
07:37
Mr Flintstone
evidence is building stablecoins off of the amoveo oracle
07:37
that it works
07:37
if they hold their value
ŽM
07:37
Živojin Mirić
Lets not advance this to stablecoins
07:38
We still did not pass fundamental stuff
07:38
And you skipped it
JS
07:38
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Philosophically, truth is truth is people perceived it as truth. There will never be an ultimate god like judge yo tell you the absolute truth. Like if most people believe earth is flat, it is the “truth” at that moment.
EA
07:38
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
exactly
07:39
and more people will place bets on the chain that is committed to the truth, which will make that chain's VEO more valuable
07:40
If someone bets a ton of money on a falsehood, it's a huge incentive for everyone else to report truthfully, it's free money
ŽM
07:42
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
So whats the fucking point in this? You could cement the world in shit truths that most people believe, its not liberating humans its enabling domination of shit ideologies that have the ability to convince most of the resources to back their "truth'

Amoveo is then a backwards oriented tech that wants to throw humanity back to the darj ages?
07:42
In reply to this message
What is truth????
07:42
Thats what im asking
07:43
If people had amoveo to decide whats truth in the old times then for example Galileo would never be considered as true
EA
07:44
Eric Arsenault
So don’t ask that kind of question
ŽM
07:44
Živojin Mirić
Its by default encouraging sheep to follow known "facts" and not real truth
07:44
Any question should be asked
MF
07:45
Mr Flintstone
No, amoveo is not good for any question
ŽM
07:45
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
Censuring is the answer?
07:45
In reply to this message
Ok questions with a clear result
EA
07:45
Eric Arsenault
It’s a protocol for derivatives
ŽM
07:45
Živojin Mirić
Lets get back to the first queation
07:45
Who won the match?
07:45
How can you know? How does amoveo know?
JS
07:45
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
It is not a “truth god”, but it is enough for financial derivatives
ŽM
07:46
Živojin Mirić
Then its succeptible to manipulation and corruption
07:46
As any
07:46
And especially if there is money to be made
07:46
You count on the honesty of the community to decide whats true?
JS
07:47
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
It would be very expensive to do it
EA
07:47
Eric Arsenault
Not only honesty, there is money to be made to report the truth
ŽM
07:48
Živojin Mirić
Why do you think so? You presume that human beings care more about whats true than to make money?
JS
07:48
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
We are counting on people likes making money that losing money
07:48
Not count on their integrity
ŽM
07:49
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
This is not comprehendable
07:49
Please elaborate
JS
07:51
Jon Snow
Which part is not comprehensible
ŽM
07:51
Živojin Mirić
I am a low hanging fruit waiting to be convinced but you all are not succeding, I am not an official measurment but it's a bit dissapointing
07:51
I though that I just am not understanding somethibg simple
07:51
But it seems not to be true
JS
07:51
Jon Snow
Let’s maybe start with your football match example
ŽM
07:51
Živojin Mirić
If only an Oracle could help us
07:52
Oh nooo
JS
07:52
Jon Snow
If the match has clear winner
07:52
Then people is incentivized to bet on the true result than the false one
ŽM
07:53
Živojin Mirić
Why are they incentivized? Because you say so?
07:53
Thats the missing link
JS
07:53
Jon Snow
In a scenario that you proposed that someone really wants to promote the false results
ŽM
07:53
Živojin Mirić
How do you know and predict what will people want to bet on?
07:54
They are people after all
07:54
Where is the math where is the fail safe where is 1= true
07:54
Oh a fork
07:54
Thx
07:54
Not good enough
JS
07:55
Jon Snow
But fork comes with cost
07:55
First you need to convince people that the forked false universe will be more valuable
ŽM
07:56
Živojin Mirić
I dont have to convince anyone i have the money
07:56
I win
07:56
If its 10$
07:56
Ok I still win
JS
07:56
Jon Snow
That’s betting on more people would like to use the wrong chain than the truth chain
EA
07:56
Eric Arsenault
Nobody will use your false chain
ŽM
07:56
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
Why do you think so?
EA
07:56
Eric Arsenault
You might have money, but you are one person, most people would use truthful one
ŽM
07:56
Živojin Mirić
Are you god?
JS
07:57
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Exactly, if people knows the truth, you don’t need to convince anyone because people knows what is true
ŽM
07:57
Živojin Mirić
So amoveo is based on naivety of good hearted people that care about the "truth"?
EA
07:57
Eric Arsenault
If you are betting on derivatives, you want to use the truthful chain
JS
07:57
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Care about their money
ŽM
07:57
Živojin Mirić
I see why Zack wanted this to be a cult now
EA
07:58
Eric Arsenault
its in everyones best interest to report the truth, and follow the chain that has the truth
07:58
Those are the incentives
ŽM
07:58
Živojin Mirić
So Oracle is not a real Oracle it just chooses to go with the option that hkas the most money on it? And the automatically claims that's the truth?
JS
07:58
Jon Snow
Here truth means security of your money, supporting false result means you want to bet your money that more people will think the “false” is true
ŽM
07:59
Živojin Mirić
So its a popularity contest....
EA
07:59
Eric Arsenault
sure
JS
07:59
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Definitely not an Oracle religiously
ŽM
08:00
Živojin Mirić
We have numerous example in real life where marketing and apperances win or make a "truth out of no where '
JS
08:00
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
It is a game theory contest
Z
08:00
Zack
Remember the ethereum dao incident?
Since the money was locked up so long, they could do a hard update to prevent it getting stolen.

Amoveo's oracle is slow on purpose. So we can do this if we need to.

So the defenders will always double their money, and the attacker will lose.
ŽM
08:00
Živojin Mirić
So amoveo is just technically suporting then
08:00
Not really caring about the real teuth
08:01
Amoveo is a marketing tool
08:01
At its core
mx
08:01
mr x
Oracles arent that difficult. Just make them slow so that in worst case hard fork abusers money.
ŽM
08:01
Živojin Mirić
Good PR = truth = money
JS
08:01
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
I think the current marketing status of Amoveo can basically prove it is not a marketing tool lol
ŽM
08:02
Živojin Mirić
It is fundamentally
Z
08:02
Zack
In reply to this message
That is half of it.
You also need the escalation mechanism, to control the volume of hard forks we need to do.
JS
08:02
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
You cannot use good PR to convince people a different result of a football match
mx
08:02
mr x
yes
ŽM
08:02
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
Why do you think this?
MF
08:03
Mr Flintstone
Everyone knows who won a game
ŽM
08:03
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
Lol
08:03
You are naive
08:03
Thats not how the world works
08:03
People know shit
JS
08:03
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Because if you believe that PR, you might lose you money if you just blindly believe it
Z
08:03
Zack
The entire institution depends on reliably agreeing on the results of games. They have many regulations in place for that reason.
JS
08:04
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
People are incentivized to guard their money
ŽM
08:04
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
Ok but whats the connection between a trusted institution and amoveo? Flawed human users?
08:04
There is a missing link
08:04
And thats no Oracle
Z
08:05
Zack
People are incentivized to hold the side that reports more honestly
ŽM
08:05
Živojin Mirić
Why di you think so?
Z
08:05
Zack
So it will have a higher value and more hashpower
ŽM
08:05
Živojin Mirić
What if an unhonest report brings more money?
Z
08:06
Zack
If it is too much money to respond to in less than a week, we can do a soft fork to prevent them from winning, and prevent them from increasing their bet, so we have enough time to gather the money to win.
ŽM
08:07
Živojin Mirić
Why would you do that? The system is flawd so a "supreme guardian" should manipulate it to it's will?
Z
08:08
Zack
I am incentivized to make nodes that follow the main chain
ŽM
08:08
Živojin Mirić
Ok you are incentivized with money but you are also a flawed human, money does not equal truth
JS
08:12
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Yes, you can also incentivized by other stuff like your believes, but monetary incentives I guess for now is the only incentive that we can trust that will work on most people
ŽM
08:13
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
Ok so you are enabling people in a current finite world that have lots of existing money in certain ratios to strengthen their position and sponsor their "truths" merely because they have money
08:14
More money - > more true?
08:15
Amoveo is a monopoly enabler
08:15
Truth is irrelevant
08:15
??
08:16
I'm going to sleep now but looking forward to continue tonmorrow
08:16
I am eager to realize that I'm wrong
08:16
Honestly
MF
08:16
Mr Flintstone
Just because you have more money does not mean you can make one fork worth more than another without it being extremely expensive
08:17
the cost would be higher than any money you could expect to win from a bet
JS
08:18
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
They are not sponsoring “truth” without risk. If they have a lot of veo and sponsor an incorrect result, they are risking their money in a way such that their money could worth much less in the forked “untrue” universe.
D
09:55
Devender
In reply to this message
Okay. @zack_amoveo new future request after reading BS comments of this person

For every bet, the oracle will convert to a truthful human and will go and check the truth and report that truth. So mr oracle will save us from all false reporters. 😂
09:58
In reply to this message
I know a feature that can fix your pain.

Oracle will convert to a human (let's say Mr. Oracle) and will go and check the truth himself/herself and report it to the oracle (it's the coding version)
For example, it will go and watch a football match so that it knows the truth.
09:58
😂
Deleted invited Deleted Account
ŽM
15:25
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
I don't know you and you better stop because I will bet that you do not exist
D
15:26
Devender
In reply to this message
Is that your truth or universal truth??
ŽM
15:26
Živojin Mirić
Dont know
15:26
The ORACLE will know
D
15:26
Devender
In reply to this message
Makes sense
ŽM
15:27
Živojin Mirić
If I put a lot of money you must cease to exist!
D
15:28
Devender
Ah others can see my message and they can vote for my existence unless you buy them all 😟
ŽM
15:28
Živojin Mirić
Yes
15:29
Same as PoS
15:29
Depends on others and the fact if they are bribed or not
I
15:46
Instinct
People are always vulnerable to bribery. You cannot change that. Amoveo’s system makes it transparent - you can see if big money is trying to change a decision & therefore choose to bet against or exclude them by not using their side after the fork.

If a company buys up a lot of Veo to try to sway decisions, they end up risking all that capital in front of the whole community on a lie. They would have no users on that side of the fork unless they simultaneously bribed the majority of Amoveo holders. And even then it would only be a once off solution, people wouldn’t be incentivised to keep using a derivatives chain that is corrupt
EA
16:13
Eric Arsenault
@ShakaRAMa maybe you can try to attack Amoveo once the update is live, if you are successful, I think you proved your point
16:13
Even in bitcoin, if someone has enough money, they can print money for themselves
16:14
In Amoveo, it will get increasingly expensive to do so as network grows
ŽM
16:14
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
Thats the exact thing I told Zack to do when he criticized other chains
16:15
So it has same fundamental flaws it relies on users and their feelings
I
16:18
Instinct
It doesn’t make economic sense to force decisions on Amoveo. Simple as that. No feelings involved
ŽM
16:31
Živojin Mirić
Ok, I want to believe you but am still not convinced so if we could go through an example, it may be flawed in some way because I'm writing it in a hurry but I think you'll understand what I'm asking


There's a bet that team A will win a football match, someone comes and puts a sum of money on team B and now people see that and double down on A because I don't know that team is really strong IRL
Now the amount of money on team A is worth enough for some wealthy malicious actor to put x100 of money on to team B winning just before the bet settles and he takes everything goes to the exchange sells for some other crypto and he bullied his way to take money from others and the only defense is that people will fork veo where team A won because that happened IRL but at that time the attacker already won and doesn't care about the "true" chain anymore

the thing bothering me is that it seems to me that the oracle is just really equal to "more money = true"
Z
16:33
Zack
In reply to this message
If someone puts a bunch of money in the Oracle to change it from being in one state to another, that resets the timer.
So we have another week to make counter-reports in the Oracle.
16:34
The betting mechanism is there to limit the rate at which we need to do fork-level oracle resolutions.
the betting mechanism doesn't determine the outcome, it is more like an anti-spam mechanism.
ŽM
16:36
Živojin Mirić
ok but for example you as the biggest veo whale could still bully it
Z
16:36
Zack
You wish.
16:37
Then you could double your Veo
ŽM
16:37
Živojin Mirić
how if you have more money?
Z
16:37
Zack
The community can follow the version with less money, if they do a fork level decision.
ŽM
16:38
Živojin Mirić
yeah but the bet settles in the meantime and the whale attacker takes the money and exchanges it to something else and he doesn't care about veo forks anymore
J
16:39
Josh
think of it as trying to manipulate a company's stock price by starting a whole new exchange and getting everybody to start using that one instead of NYSE.
Z
16:39
Zack
In reply to this message
Haha good one
16:41
In reply to this message
The coins on the attackers side won't have value
ŽM
16:53
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
the bet settles before community forks veo is still on exchanges he transfers his winnings and its game over
Z
16:54
Zack
In reply to this message
The Oracle is delayed till after the fork.
The bet contracts I wrote won't settle until the Oracle does, so they settle after the fork as well.
ŽM
16:54
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
same goes in your direction think of it there is a fraud detected in stock market you say the solution is to make a new stock market
16:56
In reply to this message
So if there is no holy guardian to fork attacker is safe?
Z
16:58
Zack
All blockchains need programmers maintaining it.
If both sides of a fork succeed, like the bitcoin cash fork, that means there are programmers on both sides.
16:59
Software doesn't just exist. It is constantly rotting as the world around it changes
Z
17:26
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/pull/274
I set up the pull request for the subcurrency update.
So now it is easy to see exactly what lines are being changed for this update.
B
17:30
Ben
Zivojin has a valid point, i the current state veo is. basically the amount of people who could fork veo is less then a handfull so i would also say that currently the attacker is huge in favor. And since you could fork veo at any time or just bet against the Version you don't like with the biggest bag out there, that is an even bigger threat.
17:31
if veo attract a good spread community at some point, i guess "the Truth" has a better chance to win against a mailcious actor.
Z
17:32
Zack
In reply to this message
probably the most important part to review, if you want to review changes, is the records.hrl file.
This shows the format for the new datastructures.
D
17:42
Devender
In reply to this message
What should it rely on?
17:42
What's the solution according to you?
ŽM
17:43
Živojin Mirić
I have no solution
17:44
Thats not the point
D
17:44
Devender
Great
I
17:45
Instinct
In reply to this message
It wouldn’t be hard to bring it to the community’s attention in here & people would then take the free money by betting on the truthful side
17:45
No need for the fork escalation
J
17:54
Josh
might be the best marketing we could get
17:56
we should put up a bunch of bets like "the earth is flat", "hillary clinton won the 2016 presidential elections"
D
17:57
Devender
And let earth flat gang bet of it 😅
Deleted invited Deleted Account
B
18:31
Ben
In reply to this message
i guess you underestimate how uneven the distribution is.
Z
18:40
Zack
you can't ask the oracle if the world is flat.
You can ask about some public body's official opinion on whether the earth is flat.
You could ask whether some particular scientist will announce that they believe the earth is flat.
Z
20:14
Zack
I guess ill merge the hard update into the master branch for 2 weeks from now
20:14
it has a lot of testing now
20:15
As long as you don't put money into the new contracts, you will be safe if they break.
20:15
So updating sooner means we can start trying it out with real money sooner, and the risk is minimized.
20:17
I merged it
20:19
This is the announcement for hard update 32. The subcurrency hard update.
It activates at block 130300, in about 2 weeks.
even though it is #32, if you scan properly updated nodes they will say #34.
Nodes that need to be updated will say #33 or lower.
Here is the instructions related to updating https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//getting-started/updating.md
20:32
http://159.89.87.58:8080/peer_scan.html here you can see a list of which nodes updated.
MF
20:40
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
You should tweet this
Z
20:41
Zack
there is nothing to try out for 2 weeks though
20:41
I guess researchers might be interested in looking at the new smart contract system now that it is stable
MF
20:42
Mr Flintstone
I think exchanges etc need to update
20:42
i.e. qtrade
Z
20:42
Zack
I maintain a list of who to contact for each update
MF
20:42
Mr Flintstone
Oh cool
Rafi F invited Rafi F
Z
21:21
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/tree/amm I set up this other branch for making the AMM
21:21
I wrote the merkle tree to store the markets.
MF
21:34
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
the whale still cant close the oracle if we soft fork
21:35
You need to close it in order to settle contracts iirc
Z
22:33
Zack
I started writing the tx types in the AMM branch
22:48
should their be a fee for depositing coins to get liquidity shares? or for despoting the shares to get your coins back?
We would use this fee to pay the other liquidity shares holders.
s
23:13
sanket
In reply to this message
I guess it should be the 2nd. That way people will provide liquidity first
23:13
and if you remove it, you pay a fee
MF
23:27
Mr Flintstone
maybe we can have no fee for LP?
23:28
would there be an issue with that?
Z
23:28
Zack
every tx still has a governance fee, and a miner fee.
The question we are talking about now is whether the market_liquidity_tx should have a fee that is used to pay holders of other liquidity shares.
S
23:48
Sebsebzen
Are there any open DAC’s at the moment?
23:49
From Exan for example
Z
23:49
Zack
I think there are none right now
23 August 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
CD
01:10
Crypt Dweller
Zivojin does have a valid point; as Zack pointed out, it's essentially the same concern that Paul had. And Paul is a very intelligent person. The oracle depends on game theory, as does Bitcoin. I don't really see how it's any more vulnerable to corruption than Bitcoin was in the early years. These are not some omniscient unbreakable technologies. They can definitely be exploited but the game theory and money incentives militate against it quite strongly. Some people seem to want a godlike Oracle that can divine absolute or objective truth, but that stems from a flawed understanding that such truth exists, and if it does, can be articulated in yes/no answers.
01:11
We want Amoveo to be a pragmatic technology for trustless derivatives, not some religious cult.
01:13
If wealthy malicious actors think they can compromise Amoveo and take people's money, then please by all means do so. It would be awesome to see how it responds to a real world test like that.
EA
02:20
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Are you thinking just following uniswap model?
02:21
In reply to this message
I would just do what uniswap does
Z
02:21
Zack
Their documentation is kind of long.
Constant multiple market makers seem pretty simple.
02:22
Paul sztorc has this idea that every market should be single threaded.
Like, every trade should say the exact state of the market before that trade gets executed.
MF
02:23
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
yeah
Z
02:23
Zack
It solves a lot of front running issues, but isn't as scalable.

But we are pairing this system with the subcurrency swap mechanism and channels for 2nd layer markets, so maybe in this context it is a good tradeoff.
MF
02:24
Mr Flintstone
why not just specify a max slippage
Z
02:24
Zack
I'll review their docs again as I make the new txs
MF
02:24
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
this is what uniswap does
Z
02:25
Zack
In reply to this message
There are weird attacks, like dropping a tx and purposefully processing others first, to force that user to re-make the tx at a higher price.
02:25
And it isn't so good letting miners take all the value between the market price and the limit price.
02:26
Each market can be a different thread in parallel.
MF
02:26
Mr Flintstone
they can still front run you, they just need to leave enough liquidity for your order to execute with max slippage
Z
02:26
Zack
It's just, it will get expensive to get a trade into a popular market.
MF
02:26
Mr Flintstone
they dont seem to have any issue with this strategy but i am not constantly using uniswap so maybe someone who does can chime in
02:28
In reply to this message
that does not sound desirable
02:28
if the drawbacks of using a max slippage model were significant we would see single threaded AMMs be popular on ethereum but there arent any
02:29
at least that i am aware of
02:29
idk, i wonder how frequently trades fail on uniswap in the current model
EA
03:13
Eric Arsenault
I don’t think it’s a big issue unless you set your gas really low
JS
03:19
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Indeed, it is not a god like Oracle with “ultimate truth”
Z
04:19
Zack
I think Pauls idea to have single threaded markets isn't good.
If different full nodes have contradictory trades in their mempools, it gets really complicated.
A trader would want to publish a different trade to each mining pool.
Z
04:37
Zack
Every time some other miner found a block, it would invalidate everything that they didn't include as well
Z
11:03
Zack
I wrote the first draft of the tx types for the AMM, the on-chain market maker.
MF
11:31
Mr Flintstone
nice, 500 lines of code
11:35
can you specify max slippage for a market order somewhere in here?
JS
11:38
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Awesome. That was quick
Z
11:39
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes
11:42
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/amm/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/txs/market_swap_tx.erl#L14 this is the minimum amount you need to get for it to be a valid tx
EA
11:45
Eric Arsenault
how does this AMM work in relation to the subcurrencies? Will people be able to provide liquidity for different subcurrency trading pairs?
11:47
Do people receive fees for providing liquidity?
MF
11:47
Mr Flintstone
yeah you can just provide liquidity for whatever subcurrency pair you want and the fees LP receive are a governance variable
11:49
so you could create some synthetic btc and usd and then make a btc/usd pool
11:50
you could also make a trump wins subcurrency and a biden wins subcurrency, and trade them against each other in a pool
11:51
you could create a 2x bitcoin token and put it in a pool with usd tokens
s
11:55
sanket
This sounds like Synthetix + Uniswap
11:55
Right?
MF
11:55
Mr Flintstone
yes
11:55
thats right
11:55
it is similar
s
11:55
sanket
In reply to this message
It's much easier to understand when you say it like this.
MF
11:56
Mr Flintstone
Yeah
JS
11:59
Jon Snow
Now we just need a sick and intuitive UI to help meme people use it
MF
12:00
Mr Flintstone
probably can justin sun it tbh
JS
12:03
Jon Snow
copy the guy who is the master of copying
12:03
Sounds very fair to me
MF
12:04
Mr Flintstone
it would be a little different, like you wouldnt use something like metamask, but i feel like if they have already done a lot of work on making ux good and this product is similar then it makes sense to take inspiration
JS
12:05
Jon Snow
Yeah
Siddharth Jain invited Siddharth Jain
MF
12:12
Mr Flintstone
these have the potential to be the first truly censorship resistant stablecoins ever
Georgi Georgiev invited Georgi Georgiev
s
12:41
sanket
In reply to this message
I feel that UI isn't the important part. Look at curve.fi or yearn.finance
12:41
It's the functionally
I
13:09
Instinct
In reply to this message
I think it’s important, especially due to it not being in eth ecosystem
13:13
In reply to this message
Monumental
s
13:15
sanket
In reply to this message
True. But, there needs to be usability.
Maker did it beautifully with Dai.
EA
13:30
Eric Arsenault
Do the trading pairs follow a x*y=k formula? Or something else?
13:31
Would be interesting to think about VEO rewards for LP providers. Feel like it would be good to incentivize stablecoins this way to bootstrap
EA
14:12
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Will stablecoins expire? The expiry of all these contracts poses a usability challenge I think, people just aren't used to dealing with tokens that expire
MF
14:12
Mr Flintstone
you can sell them to the pool before they expire
14:13
i think you might be able to have them automatically roll as well
EA
14:15
Eric Arsenault
rolling over would be nice
MF
14:18
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
you would sign an offer trading the first stablecoin for an equivalent amount of the second
14:18
and it would be matchable after a certain block height
14:21
I think in theory, all of the future stablecoins can be moving around on amoveo, right now. so the first maturity stablecoin and second maturity stablecoin are on chain even though the first hasnt matured
14:22
meaning you can have a liquidity pool of the current stablecoin and the next one
14:26
im not 100% sure about that tho
Michael invited Michael
Z
17:17
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes
s
18:04
sanket
In reply to this message
how does it work simply?
18:04
I mean isn't there just one stablecoin per fiat currency
Z
18:06
Zack
in amoveo a stablecoin is a kind of financial derivative. a btc stablecoin would be a bet on the BTC/VEO price. You set up the bet to hedge yourself from veo price changes, so you are left holding something that stays the same value as BTC.
18:07
for the financial derivative to work, there needs to be an expiration when the contract can get executed based on the BTC/VEO price at that time.
So holders of the contract get paid based on the outcome of that contract.
18:07
each contract has an expiration date.
Z
19:50
Zack
I wrote passing tests for the AMM tx types.
19:56
I guess ill make a light node interface for it next
19:59
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/amm/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/trees/markets.erl#L15 I needed a deterministic sqrt function that operates on integers.
it finds the nearest integer to the sqrt of it's input.
here is what I came up with.
20:00
hopefully this doesn't have an infinite loop embedded in it somehow.
that would make amoveo crash.
Z
20:18
Zack
maybe instead of checking if it is near enough to the target, I should keep running the loop until it finds a fixed point?
That might be easier to prove it wont crash
20:18
or maybe I should have a hard limit of like 12 loops
20:21
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer_square_root
looks like perfect squares don't have fixed points. they bounce between 2 outcomes.

So we could keep iterating until it either loops between 2 things or hits a fixed point.
I
23:13
Instinct
Voting messes still going on for governance https://twitter.com/andrecronjetech/status/1297536932063457281?s=21
MF
23:53
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
each stablecoin has its own maturity date, so you can have different stablecoins for the same fiat currency with different maturity dates
E
23:56
Emmanuel
Is this coin on only one exchange
24 August 2020
s
00:00
sanket
In reply to this message
Can't we just have a perpetual stablecoin
JS
00:20
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
I think hitBTC also has it, but qtrade.io is the main one so far
Z
00:32
Zack
In reply to this message
It is possible for the smart contract to redistribute the value between the subcurrencies while creating a new child contract.

So we could reset the margins occasionally by having the contract produce a child contract.
00:33
If your stablecoin are from an old version, you can do a tx to transform into the newer version.
But some of the stablecoin might turn into Veo along the way.
00:35
If a margin gets hit, then one side of the contract could become worth zero at that point so the other side wins all the Veo and the progress stops.
MF
00:40
Mr Flintstone
maybe a good strategy to do perpetual stablecoins is to recreate something like a decentralized ETF. like how an ETF on oil is made up of underlying futures with different maturities, but is itself perpetual
JS
00:42
Jon Snow
Spread out your contract rolling liquidity risk by diversifying your maturities
J
01:27
Josh
In reply to this message
that would be cool, can it be done completely in code with no managers?
MF
01:36
Mr Flintstone
i think it would be like this: instead of two assets in the liquidity pool like uniswap, you could have N assets. all these N assets are usd stablecoins, the only difference being maturity date. i think that the liquidity shares of this pool are kind of perpetual stablecoins?
01:37
if you rotate in more stablecoins once old ones hit expiration
01:40
i think a challenge there is that there may not be enough trading for the LP to this pool to make money
01:40
but i think we can figure out a way to do something like this without any managers
J
01:48
Josh
why wouldn't there be enough trading?
Z
01:49
Zack
I don't get how the rotation could work.
01:50
Constant product market with more than 2 kinds of currencies is easy.
K
02:00
K
The launch of a token system ontop of amoveo couldn't have came at a better time 👍
JS
02:01
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
It is sort of like a token system, but it is not like ETH token system I think?
Z
02:17
Zack
amoveo only has financial derivatives. the tokens are fungible divisible bearer-bonds for participating in a derivative.
02:18
so you can make a contract priced in another contract, or sell half your stake in a contract. stuff like that.
Deleted joined group by link from Group
K
02:40
K
Can I turn a financial derivative into a liquid asset
02:40
and trade it?
Z
02:40
Zack
Yes
K
02:41
K
In reply to this message
Do you know when there'll be a nice UI to do that?
Z
02:42
Zack
A basic javascript interface exists. We will iteratively improve it.
MF
02:55
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
you would schedule whitelisting future stablecoins for the pool
02:56
In reply to this message
i think you would need people to trade between the futures, but if people are just using the perpetual coin im not sure why would be trading stablecoin futures between themselves
J
03:05
Josh
there always has to be someone reading the other side though
MF
04:12
Mr Flintstone
if youre just trading the liquidity share against other things (btc, veo, etc), you dont need to go through the futures
Z
06:12
Zack
In reply to this message
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/amm/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/trees/markets.erl#L15
I rewrote it based on the fixed point strategy.
I think it is good now.
MF
06:45
Mr Flintstone
cool
Z
08:28
Zack
I made and tested a javascript interface for creating new markets, and for looking up the state of an existing market.

I made interfaces for buying liquidity shares, and for swaping in markets, but I haven't tested them yet.
08:28
I still need to make an interface for looking up your balance in liquidity shares.
MF
10:16
Mr Flintstone
lets say we add a provision to the oracle language of a stablecoin that if the price of collateral ever drops below X, then the stablecoin holder gets 100% of the VEO in the contract.

then, say someone else buys the stablecoin, they can simultaneously sign a swap offer offering to sell the contract for 99% of its value in VEO. this means you can hold a subcurrency that can be liquidated if the price drops too much. the liquidator will earn the 1% in veo minus fees.

instead of offering to sell the contract for 99% of its value in VEO, you can offer to sell it for 99% of its value in another, better collateralized stablecoin. meaning that even if the value of your collateral drops too much, you may be safe because it could be swapped for a different coin.

while this is an advantage for holders of the stablecoin, i think there is an even bigger advantage for liquidity providers because in an efficient market you might be able to have very very low collateralization ratios. like instead of backing stablecoins with 7x their value in veo, you could back them with only 2x or potentially less. because once the value of the collateral drops low enough, someone could come lock in the risk free veo return and your value in the stablecoin would be converted into a new one. so it could be very cheap to create subcurrenices on amoveo vs existing options

so if this works, amoveo might have very cheap leverage.
Z
16:31
Zack
In reply to this message
If this works it seems like it would be a big improvement.

I don't get how you estimate the 7x and 2x.
It is hard for me to imagine how much margin we would need in this case?
I feel like it relates to the cost of a tx fee relative to the size of your contract.
Z
17:29
Zack
I made a javascript tool in the light node for looking up your balance in liquidity shares in a market.
Z
19:17
Zack
I got the basic javascript user interface working for the AMM
19:19
it can look up your balance in liquidity shares, make new markets. buy/sell liquidity shares, trade in the market, and look up the state of existing markets.
19:19
I guess we should do the hard update pretty soon.
19:19
oh, I should add these new txs to the multi-tx
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
20:17
Zack
adding them to multi-tx is a little tricky, because I want flash loans to work correctly when combining market trades and swaps and liquidity withdraws etc.
20:17
ill have to make tests to be sure it is working right.
Z
20:42
Zack
I stored all the balances in the system using 48 bits. :(
So there can't be more than 2.8 million veo in any one place.
20:42
I think we are going to need a big update to fix that. haha
20:44
well, we probably wont have that many veo for a long time anyway
20:50
I got a simple test working of flash loans for the different market tx types
20:51
so for example, if there are a lot of open swap offers, you could atomically match a bunch of those offers and create a market
20:52
or you could atomically make trades in markets and match swap offers.
B
20:58
Beer
🧿🧿🧿🧿🧿🧿🧿🧿🧿🧿🧿🧿🧿🧿🧿🧿🧿🧿🧿🧿
A
20:59
Alfie
👁
ŽM
21:00
Živojin Mirić
is Amoveo turkish coin?
Z
21:01
Zack
Amoveo is Earth's coin.
ŽM
21:02
Živojin Mirić
We should ask the ORACLE
Z
21:04
Zack
the market hard update seems ready to me.
Does anyone want to suggest more tests, or review it, or ask questions or something before we merge?
ŽM
21:05
Živojin Mirić
In reply to this message
I approve
21:15
Evil Eye emoji 🧿
I
21:18
Instinct
🧿🧿
Z
21:33
Zack
21:33
here is the market interface so far
21:33
it all seems to work
21:34
im feeling pretty excited about the auto market maker update now
21:34
the subcurrency stuff too
MF
21:45
Mr Flintstone
nice
21:45
we can start abstracting this stuff now
M
23:28
Mike
Looks great
Deleted invited Deleted Account
25 August 2020
Z
00:38
Zack
If an amoveo market is built out of opposite sides of a binary contract, that gives us some extra abilities.

Like if the contract is stablecoin and long-veo.
Because you can use a multi-tx to simultaniously transform veo into the combination of stablecoin and long-veo.
So even though it is a market for only 2 assets, it is letting us move smoothly between 3 assets.
Rom invited Rom
MF
02:05
Mr Flintstone
an amoveo LP would currently make 0.5% versus uniswap LP at 0.3%
02:05
but amoveo on chain fees are very low right now
02:06
So for someone trading it may be cheaper
Z
02:20
Zack
We could start at 0.2%
02:21
Traders need to pay a flat governance fee.
What if the liquidity fee was 1/2 the governance fee, plus 0.1%?
EA
02:22
Eric Arsenault
I think fees should be low until we find PMF
Z
02:22
Zack
The liquidity shares are an interesting product
EA
02:22
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
sounds good
02:23
I guess this is what rewards the LPs?
Z
02:23
Zack
Yes
MF
02:23
Mr Flintstone
yeah
02:23
we need LP to get compensated
EA
02:23
Eric Arsenault
Do you think we can add extra VEO mining incentives?
Z
02:23
Zack
We can increase the block reward
MF
02:24
Mr Flintstone
eric means to pay liquidity providers with
EA
02:25
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
maybe we wait until we have a product that is usable + we are happy with first
Z
02:25
Zack
I don't get what you are asking for
EA
02:26
Eric Arsenault
the idea is to reward liquidity providers with VEO
MF
02:26
Mr Flintstone
On ethereum people have been getting a lot of assets into defi applications by issuing tokens to people who provide these applications with liquidity
02:27
the problem is, they can issue a ton of tokens because that is the way they are initially distributing them. like the tokens didnt previously exist before this incentive program
02:27
and the tokens can be very valuable because they may have a claim to the fees generated by the application
02:28
so you are kind of leveraging your future potential cash flows to get liquidity into the application now
02:29
so just giving liquidity providers veo would be a different dynamic i think
EA
02:29
Eric Arsenault
with amoveo though, I don't think we would need to issue a ton of tokens this way. Could be like 10% of mining rewards. Maybe it would need to be for whitelisted pairs
02:29
but also, gets complicated since pairs expire
Z
02:29
Zack
Paying people to spam txs is a bad idea
MF
02:30
Mr Flintstone
it isnt spam
02:30
they have to keep their liquidity in the pool to get the rewards
02:31
For what its worth the most successful amm doesnt use this trick
02:31
but it had a first mover advantage
Z
02:31
Zack
Wouldn't everyone put their money into the extreme low risk pools. Like, a pool between 2 shares that split value 50-50
MF
02:32
Mr Flintstone
you specify which pools get the rewards
02:32
and your return is a function of the # of assets in the pool. since the reward is fixed per pool
02:32
so once the pool grows, the reward in a different pool may become more attractive
Z
02:33
Zack
Let's start with the simplest thing and try to get someone to use it and see what they say
EA
02:33
Eric Arsenault
I think for example: the stablecoin pool would benefit from this at the start
02:33
yeah, I would agree, start simple first
R
03:54
Rom
Hello, what’s the circulation supply of VEO pls ?
Z
03:54
Zack
http://explorer.veopool.pw/index.php around 74 000
R
03:58
Rom
And max supply
Z
03:59
Zack
We don't know.
Block reward is set by a governance mechanism.
MF
03:59
Mr Flintstone
annual inflation is something like 7% right now
R
04:01
Rom
Ok thx
04:03
Do you plan to list the VEO on new exchanges in the coming months?
Z
04:03
Zack
no
Z
08:13
Zack
In reply to this message
This uses floating point. It isn't deterministic.
Z
16:16
Zack
Looking at all the craziness people go through to keep their ethereum nodes synced, I think being able to sync blocks in reverse order is going to be a killer feature.
Full nodes that are immediately usable when you turn them on.
Z
17:13
Zack
We really want an interface in the light node so that if you know your veo pubkey, it can also tell your your balances in all the other subcurrencies that you own.

Repeatedly spamming a full node to get this data is not efficient.

What we need is an explorer that can organize the data from amoveo's blockchain into useful format, and then it should offer good api for the light node to have access to this data.

So I made a new github repository to build this.
I am starting to plan out which data to collect here: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-explorer/blob/master/todo.md
A G invited A G
Z
22:44
Zack
I set up the database to keep track of accounts, and one to track txs.
22:45
I made it an append-only database, so we can handle orphans really smoothly without having to roll-back anything.
22:46
kind of like how the blockchain works.
22:48
but in order to do that, I built a binary tree inside a dictionary. it is slower for writing and reading.
22:54
I think we need some garbage collection for this accounts database
22:57
eventually we want this explorer to work for lots of data. but for now I just want it to tell us which subcurrencies each account is involved with.
once that works well, we can do the rest.
23:08
the AMM stuff, I basically stopped working on it. no one is suggesting any tests.
Can we merge it yet?
23:12
instead of garbage collection, I think for now I might just restart the thread every couple of weeks and let it rescan from the top blockchain state.
MF
23:16
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
you made the fee 0.2%?
Z
23:18
Zack
got it
MF
23:52
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
when your subcurrencies are displayed, it should highlight the ones that are not templated
26 August 2020
Z
00:02
Zack
Yes
D
00:03
Daniel
Hi, are questions about futarchy ok here or should I post it elsewhere?

In case it's OK, here is the question:

I read the 2014 post of Vitalik explaining futarchy in easy terms, if I translate it to the finance world - it's just buying/selling call/put options with underlying which is something else aside of market price. You can only lose what your premium if you bough, but you can loose unlimited value if you sold and the underlying moved in the wrong direction. Also in futarchy you are not limited by the yes/ no question - on opposite - the end result of the underlying can be open ended. (can also be binary)

Now, as I understood - your interpretation is a lot different. It rather like binary options - you either loose all you paid or you win the fixed ammount. (eg the underlying either reached the strike price or not) The binary nature of your algorithm seems to limit the potential use cases.

So the question is why do you think it's a better way to do it?

Apologies if it was asked before or you wrote some post on it. You can just answer with the link.
MF
00:11
Mr Flintstone
definition of futarchy can kind of be simplified to: using market prices to make decisions for groups. the instrument you are measuring the price of isnt very consequential
00:13
but things like calls in the legacy financial world are actually credit instruments for the buyer. and puts are as well if the counterparty hasnt segregated enough cash to cover the underlying dropping to zero
Z
00:13
Zack
I think he just wants to know about derivatives and finance
MF
00:13
Mr Flintstone
i guess calls could be covered, but you dont know exactly what your counterparty’s exposures are
Z
00:14
Zack
"Futarchy" is just a buzz word
MF
00:14
Mr Flintstone
since u cant have credit on a blockchain you have to use fully funded derivatives
00:15
which are limited loss instruments
D
00:19
Daniel
In reply to this message
No Zack I know enough about derivatives and Finance. I know less about how Amoveo function.

It's not a nice tone to talk in the third person form about the person who is present in the conversation.
00:24
In reply to this message
Thank you. You could lock the veo ammount received from the buyer on sellers account without possibility to withdraw until the result is known. Then the only credit risk would be the profit, which is acceptable, as the notional is secured and can be a risk for both buyer or seller. You still can have the uncertain p&l compared to your version where it's known in advance (more like binary options or sports betting)
MF
00:26
Mr Flintstone
the profit is taken from the counterparty’s collateral. if your profit exceeds their collateral, you cannot make more money
00:27
so for example, a CFD where we both put $100 in. if i am long and the underlying rips 1000%, i can only withdraw $200
00:27
but you can have it roll into another contract automatically with some tricks
D
00:27
Daniel
In reply to this message
But if it's 50%? Then you still get 200$
MF
00:28
Mr Flintstone
if you are at 1x leverage to the underlying, i think in this case if notional is $100, you make $50 profit
00:29
you can also customize the notional
D
00:30
Daniel
In reply to this message
Ok thanks. So my understanding was not complete.
MF
00:31
Mr Flintstone
any kind of fully funded derivative can be programmed with any starting market value on either side and any notional value
N
00:46
NM$L
hi
JS
01:34
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
hi
Harsh K invited Harsh K
Z
02:53
Zack
This is the announcement for amoveo update number 35, the automatic market maker update. It allows for uniswap style pools, and profiting from holding liquidity shares in these pools.
This update will activate on block 130700, in about 2 weeks.
Here is documentation related to updating, it is the same as always: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//getting-started/updating.md
JS
03:05
Jon Snow
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M
03:49
Mike
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04:15
Devender
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Zzzzzz zzzzzzz invited Zzzzzz zzzzzzz
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04:28
Rom
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04:43
Iridescence
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D
06:17
Daniel
In reply to this message
Actually I have a filllowup question. To your statement that any derivative can be replicated.

So far I understand the oracle will only take yes/no questions in the end, correct?

So, in such case what question should you ask for this 50% from our previous example to materialise?

Simple forward:
Leverage 1:1
Nominal 100 veo
Goal: pay the proportional % profit to the side who won, so if the security lost 50% then buyer would pay 50 veo if the security gained 50%, then seller would pay 50 veo. Note in can be any % from - 100% to + 100%

Thanks again.
MF
06:20
Mr Flintstone
the old way we used to do this, was to encode the scalar value in binary, and then have 10 oracles. then attach the smart contract to these 10 oracles, and use true = 1 and false = 0 to create our scalar price
06:21
In reply to this message
here is what we do now for the new way
D
06:22
Daniel
In reply to this message
And if it 35.67%? Would you create 20000 oracles?
MF
06:22
Mr Flintstone
you could agree to any number of oracles to add precision
06:22
3567 in binary is 110111101111
06:23
so more than 10 oracles
06:23
i think the new way is better anyhow
D
06:23
Daniel
In reply to this message
I see. Just read it. Doesn't matter how much if proceduraly generated. Thanks.
Z
06:25
Zack
The new way is to ask the Oracle a very specific question. Like, "is the price $11,845.34 at this time on this exchange?"
06:26
We can ask the Oracle question at the end, during enforcement. So at that point in time we know the price to ask about.
MF
06:29
Mr Flintstone
since you can agree than any 1 of X oracles can enforce the contract, you can agree to 100,000 oracles that are 1 cent different and get a 1,000 dollar price range
D
06:29
Daniel
In reply to this message
Not sure what you mean. You can't. Really ask this specific question for every cent of price change. I think that @mr_flintstone explanation works for me (of course only if I would only have to pay for creation of one oracle and not 10000 as well as there is a possibility to create those 10000 oracles using ui.
MF
06:29
Mr Flintstone
you can agree to some code that generates the oracles that you agree to be bound by
06:29
so you can procedurally generate the 100,000 different oracle questions that can enforce the outcome
06:30
but yeah, you only ask one at the end
06:30
if you need to enforce something on chain
D
06:31
Daniel
In reply to this message
So I have to actually write code to do it? duh.
MF
06:31
Mr Flintstone
no
06:31
the smart contracts are already written
D
06:32
Daniel
Ok thanks. Will dig deeper and come if anything pops up.
Z
06:45
Zack
It is already integrated into the light node too.
D
06:52
Daniel
In reply to this message
By the way, I understand how you can create derivatives with veo, but still don't see how veo can help to agree on any yes/no decision.

Eg if govt has to decide to forbid fossil fuel because of global warming and they ask the population the question "should we keep fossil fuel?" and choose the min(target temp-annualized average temp of the last 5 years; 0) as a measure.

Say target is average temp of 22c and population believes the temp can stay at 18 if we ban and 20 if we keep. So the No would win with the price of 4

Decision is made, the ban is enforced and At expiration the temperature is 19.

In such case the buyers of no get 3 units per contract and the sellers have to pay only 3 units. Buyer loss - 1 seller gain +1

So far I undestand, those are kinds of questions which are useful for futarchy. Don't see how you can ask anything close to that here.
Z
06:58
Zack
You can type the Oracle question in English. It can be whatever you want.
06:58
You can also make contracts priced in other contracts
06:58
So you could first bet on the temperature, and use subcurrencies from that bet to bet in a market about government policy
06:58
Or the other order
MF
06:59
Mr Flintstone
subcurrency is basically contract you can send around. a shareable contract
Z
07:01
Zack
The smart contract language is turing complete. I can write one that takes N binary oracles, and let's us bet on the 2^N possible combinations
D
07:06
Daniel
In reply to this message
So then first there will be yes/no for voting on policy with the qustion like "should we keep the fossil fuel?" how will price finding work here Without any measure?

Then you will take this contract with some price and vote on the temperature with 100.000 oracles and be paid by the contract from the first oracle?

I the end you get some random price. What oracles would you make for such a policy voting with the temp as a measure?
MF
07:07
Mr Flintstone
so you could create temperature coins
07:09
but you could make two separate kinds of temperature coins: one that turns into a temperature coin when the fossil fuels are banned (and both sides get their money back if it doesnt), and one that turns into a temperature coin if the fossil fuels are not banned (and both sides get their money back if it does)
Z
07:09
Zack
The goal is that the price of the contract should reflect how the policy will impact temperature.

We can make a market to guess the temperature. Let people bet on what it will be using a scalar contract.

So first make a binary contract asking whether the policy gets passed.
Then using each kind of currency from that binary contract, predict the temperature.

Now you have an estimate for how the policy will impact the temperature.
MF
07:09
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
and compare the prices of these two coins
07:10
temperature coin is coin whose value increases when the temperature goes up ,and decreases when the temperature goes down
07:11
there are several approaches to get to a point where you can use market prices to inform your decisions on whether or not banning fossil fuels will impact the temperature
D
07:15
Daniel
Vice versa. Because we need to have a policy with lowest temperature increase, so the price should rise when the temp is lower. But the idea is clear.
07:15
In reply to this message
I like it. Simple.
07:16
Do you guys have a number of covid19 cases coin?
Z
07:16
Zack
Haha
Good one
MF
07:16
Mr Flintstone
haha not yet, we need subcurrencies for that which will go live in 2? Weeks
Z
07:17
Zack
Like 11 days I think
MF
07:17
Mr Flintstone
and then itll be easier to do this kind of decision analysis once we can put them in soemthing like uniswap
07:17
but that is a pretty cool suggestion
Z
07:17
Zack
That's in 2 weeks
D
07:18
Daniel
In reply to this message
Ah, so subcurrencies is a brand new feature? Cool.
MF
07:18
Mr Flintstone
where else could you trade covid19 cases but amoveo
D
07:21
Daniel
We should create some cool derivatives, which are just not possible in the regulated markets. Then people who want to use the veo to bet on those cases and not just people who want to speculate on veo price will come.
Z
07:22
Zack
Do these markets need to be priced in stablecoins to get volume?
MF
07:22
Mr Flintstone
you can have the case coin be stable in usd
D
07:22
Daniel
I dont know.
MF
07:22
Mr Flintstone
and then trade it against whatever base pair, veo, usd, btc w/e
07:22
yeah, it is definitely a good suggestion to do cool derivatives like cases count
07:22
you could even do specific states or countries
D
07:23
Daniel
How can you ensure its stable in usd? The collateral can't be in dollars you said it should be fully collateralized.
Z
07:23
Zack
I can see the headline "hackers using cryptocurrency to pay people to spread the coronavirus"
D
07:24
Daniel
In reply to this message
And then you have a million users after the news.
Z
07:24
Zack
We can use Veo to make a synthetic usd, and then have betting markets priced in the synthetic usd
D
07:24
Daniel
Bad publicity is still good.
MF
07:24
Mr Flintstone
you could also use VEO to create a synthetic case coin that is itself stable in USD
Z
07:24
Zack
So there are margins
MF
07:24
Mr Flintstone
the payout function is (1+case change)*(1+veousd price change) -1
07:24
soemthing along those lines
Z
07:25
Zack
Interesting
MF
07:25
Mr Flintstone
it is like how you create a stable btcusd with only VEO as collateral
07:26
so like, you want to put in $100 of veo. and if cases go up by 6% more than some threshold, you want to get $106 of veo
07:26
or, you can put in 100 usd tokens. and get 106 usd tokens.
D
07:26
Daniel
In reply to this message
I lost you here. Not very fluent with all the stable stuff. So far I read about dai it's really not that simple as just to pronounce the coin stable if you want it to be decentealised. You need a governance coin etc.
Z
07:27
Zack
All we have are synthetic assets
07:27
It has margins
MF
07:27
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
so if we can imagine a case coin that is not stable in USD. it is all denominated in VEO
07:27
i put in 10 veo, you put in 10 veo, if the case count is 10% higher than some threshold at the end, i get 11 veo, you get 9 veo
07:28
so my payout is 10*(1+10%)
07:29
if instead, say veo is $10, and both put 10 veo in. except this time, i want to be stable in USD
07:29
then at the end of the period, veo is now $20. then my payout in VEO is $110 of veo, or 10*(1+10%)*(1-50%), or 5.5 veo
D
07:29
Daniel
I think it doesn't have to be in stable coin. People will want to participate in price appreciation of veo with the inflow of new users.
07:29
In reply to this message
You just take the market risk on board.
MF
07:30
Mr Flintstone
yes, you can do whatever you want
D
07:30
Daniel
It's the same for any currency. If we bet in usd but I need EUR I take the fx risk anyways.
MF
07:30
Mr Flintstone
these are programmable so they can do whatever, quanto or not
D
07:32
Daniel
In reply to this message
Ok then. two weeks. I'll drop some ideas about new contracts if I have any.
MF
07:33
Mr Flintstone
cool
mx
07:43
mr x
In reply to this message
Reasonable point
D
07:43
Daniel
So:
1. Covid19 cases at different fixed points in time global and per county - but you should get paid for having the closest number to the actual result (rounded at 10.000) - you should get paid for having skill to predict def not for having more cases.
07:44
2. Belarus - will lukashenko remain in power? Yes/ no
07:45
3. Tesla - number of model y produced in q3 2020 in Germany. Not stock price it's boring.
mx
07:45
mr x
We put gambling inside your gambling so you can gamble while you gamble
Z
07:46
Zack
Great suggestions
D
07:47
Daniel
In reply to this message
I think its crying loud betting contracts are needed only to attract attention and some headlines.

Then it can really be used to make policy/corporate decisions when it's widely adopted.
mx
07:47
mr x
yes
07:49
Some crazy chain of subcurrencies would be pretty cool publicity maybe
D
07:52
Daniel
I'm a real fan of SpaceX , so:
4. Number of falcon 9 launched in 2021
5. Year-quarter when starship is sucessfully commercially launched for the first time

Everyone wants to invest in spacex but it's private so there is no market price. However if derivateve is fexed on some known success factors it will still work.
MF
07:53
Mr Flintstone
yes, you can get exposure to their success
Z
07:53
Zack
We want to start with shorter term bets if possible.
D
07:54
Daniel
In reply to this message
The one about Belarus should be pretty short :)
Z
07:54
Zack
Although I guess now that they can trade continuously, it isn't so important
D
07:54
Daniel
In reply to this message
Who can trade continuously?
Z
07:55
Zack
Before we were doing it 100% in state channels, and the locked up liquidity to enforce it all was excessive
07:55
So we were always testing short term bets.
I guess that isn't an issue now
D
07:55
Daniel
The only stuff I saw in classic markets is exposure to weather - bcs. insurances need it.

To create exposure to different fun and interesting stuff is really unique.
MF
07:56
Mr Flintstone
we are exposure alchemists
D
07:57
Daniel
In reply to this message
Right. The worst would be to create exposure to regular stocks and classical instruments. It's boring.
07:57
Anyways. Good night.
D
08:13
Daniel
Just checked the oracle explorer. There are none of them there, only a test one. So at them moment veo has 0 active users?
MF
08:16
Mr Flintstone
no users right now
08:16
but if there were, they typically wouldnt need an oracle to ever go on chain
08:17
In reply to this message
here is an MVP with the current amoveo features
08:18
w/ instructions
08:20
In reply to this message
you would settle your bet with the counterparty before going to the oracle to enforce. it saves time value. it is like settling out of court before going to a judge
D
08:23
Daniel
In reply to this message
Not sure what you mean here. How can they settle without an oracle? I thought as soon as the result is known the money dissappear from your locked margin account and appear on the other traders account.

What you say would be a manual process. We know the result you transfer me my profit and that's it. There is no automated enforcement.
MF
08:25
Mr Flintstone
the way the oracle reports an outcome currently takes about 1 week to finalize. we use some tricks to get around this settlement time
D
08:26
Daniel
In reply to this message
Crazy. Not a single active user and the price has tripled since July.
MF
08:26
Mr Flintstone
lol the price has been 20x higher without any active users as well
D
08:26
Daniel
In reply to this message
I see. So if you are in a rush, then you can just settle manually.
MF
08:27
Mr Flintstone
since both sides know how it is going to end up, they are incentivized to settle it early
Z
08:27
Zack
It saves tx fees too
MF
08:27
Mr Flintstone
but there is another way to settle it early
08:27
which is selling your position to someone who is willing to wait a week
08:27
so for example, as soon as you buy a trump wins coin
08:27
you would simultaneously offer to sell it for 99% of its possible value
08:28
nobody would accept that trade offer until trump has won
08:28
so when trump wins, someone else accepts the offer, and veo shows up in your account without doing anything
08:29
there are also some more tricks that involve settlement specialists where they dont need to even use the oracle, but that is for the subcurrency update
D
08:29
Daniel
In reply to this message
Absolutely insane. Gold rush. Can't see the price before February 2019 on coin gecko or coin market cap. not showing anywhere, so I only see the top of around 150 usd.
MF
08:30
Mr Flintstone
it was over the counter near $800 in summer of 2018 iirc
08:31
i think qtrade goes back to fall of 2018
08:31
for us in the northern hemisphere
N
08:32
NM$L
How's veo going？
08:32
will back to 300＄？
JS
08:32
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
🧿 🧿
08:33
In reply to this message
N🧿
N
08:33
NM$L
In reply to this message
Hi , Flintstone
08:33
old friend
D
08:37
Daniel
In reply to this message
It's all just hot air unless you get a stable user base. No different than running a company.
MF
08:38
Mr Flintstone
or start scamming
D
08:38
Daniel
In reply to this message
Sure. If it's your goal then yes.
MF
08:38
Mr Flintstone
im shocked at the amount of straight up vaporware that maintains huge market values to this day
D
08:38
Daniel
In reply to this message
Including veo :)
JS
08:39
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
You think VEO has “huge market values”?
D
08:40
Daniel
In reply to this message
Well for 0 users.
MF
08:40
Mr Flintstone
vaporware is not the same thing as no users
N
08:40
NM$L
veo needs marketing
08:41
I hold veo when veo born
g
08:41
goons
I have a veo key from 2018, still good ?
mx
08:42
mr x
veo needs marketing in two weeks (tm)
g
08:42
goons
Impressed that I see some of the same names in here
D
08:42
Daniel
In reply to this message
Sure. No different than running a financial company. You need technology lead, marketing/ PR lead, executive to talk to big sponsors etc. Participate in conferences about future of policy making etc.
N
08:42
NM$L
In reply to this message
me？
g
08:42
goons
Was referring to flinstone and zack specifically
N
08:43
NM$L
I mined veo using alibaba cloud gpu instance when veo mainnet released.
08:43
huge profit. but never sell
g
08:43
goons
Same but I think I used digital ocean or vultr
08:43
Oh wait no I used 1070s
N
08:44
NM$L
In reply to this message
haha. I used 1080
g
08:44
goons
minerman? Was the software iirc
mx
08:44
mr x
I got kicked out of aws for spamming v100 instances
g
08:45
goons
Same. But also DO and vultr
D
08:45
Daniel
In reply to this message
Cloud mining isn't profitable anymore right?
mx
08:45
mr x
probably not
08:46
first and last time i ever mined anything
MF
08:47
Mr Flintstone
i cpu mined 0.1 veo
g
08:47
goons
In reply to this message
So this? Afraid I haven’t kept up. Any forks or anything that would render an old key useless ?
MF
08:47
Mr Flintstone
no you should be ok
g
08:47
goons
cool, ty flinstone
MF
08:47
Mr Flintstone
have u checked the pubkey
g
08:48
goons
I haven’t. I just found it on a usb today and was in between a couple things so haven’t had a chance yet
MF
08:48
Mr Flintstone
way back in the day there was an issue with the brain wallets if that is how you generated the private key
g
08:49
goons
Unlikely
mx
08:50
mr x
In reply to this message
*not for spamming but for failure to pay the bill
Z
09:03
Zack
In reply to this message
Usb don't last forever
09:30
I like the headline. For veo: crypto currency maniacs help spread deadly virus with sick illegal gambling on VEO coin. Should generate a lot of leads.
EA
11:49
Eric Arsenault
I’m not sure how these bets will draw people from Augur, Gnosis. They have bets on corona / sports / etc
11:50
Maybe fees?
11:50
Won’t be UI...
11:51
I think cryptoeconomic incentives could play a major role, we do have Futarchy after all
JS
11:51
Jon Snow
Fees is definitely much lower than Augur during this high gas price era
EA
11:51
Eric Arsenault
Fees are lower so there is that
11:51
Yeah
11:51
But still, it costs an arm and a leg to use VEO via qTrade
MF
11:56
Mr Flintstone
cant you buy at the bid with the telegram bot?
11:57
the exantech veo bot
EA
11:58
Eric Arsenault
I’ve never tried it, is that still up?
11:58
How do you get money to the bot?
MF
11:58
Mr Flintstone
oh nevermind you buy at ask lol idk what i was thinking
11:58
you just follow the instructions
11:58
pretty easy
12:01
Deleted Account
Anyone else have issues withdrawing VEO from qtrade? My test transaction for 0.1 VEO went through fine, but the main transaction has been stuck for a week !
EA
12:02
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Is that the easiest way to buy? Wonder what fees are
12:02
Would be sweet if there was a TG channel that just posted bets, and you could buy directly from there
12:03
In reply to this message
I didn’t have a problem
12:03
Maybe you tried to withdraw over max?
12:04
Deleted Account
qtrade says "The withdraw transaction has been sent, but is not yet mined into multiple blocks"
12:05
with the test transaction (minutes earlier) it says "the transaction has been mined into multiple blocks and confirmed on the network"
12:06
could it be on an orphaned block ?
EA
12:06
Eric Arsenault
I would contact them maybe, no idea
12:07
In reply to this message
What if we had links in the front end: Buy with VEO, Buy with ETH, Buy with BTC (if you click on later, just takes you to TG bot)
MF
12:09
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
you can @ eric in the qtrade channel in discord
12:09
In reply to this message
think so
C
12:15
Callum Wright
have we ever considered submit a pull request to Ren's Multichain?
A invited A
Z
16:22
Zack
In reply to this message
I think the append only database idea was wrong.
Because if txs or blocks get orphaned, we still care about that info.
The Explorer should still display all the txs, but possibly do orphaned/zero-confirmation txs in a different color or section or something.
Ak invited Ak
Fo fo invited Fo fo
Z
21:41
Zack
I am setting up the explorer. I set it up to scan the txs and make a database so we can quickly know which accounts were involved with which txs.
Z
22:36
Zack
I set it up to scan the sub_accounts database from the full node, and add links to the new accounts database.
22:50
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-explorer here is where I am working
27 August 2020
Z
01:13
Zack
Can we stop supporting old blocks at some point?
There is so much code that we don't use for new blocks, it would be nice to delete it.
T
01:15
Tromp
How hard is it to use the wallet right now?
Z
01:15
Zack
depends what you are using it for
MF
01:15
Mr Flintstone
myveowallet.com is maintained by exantech. it is pretty easy to use if you download it
T
01:15
Tromp
It has been a year since I last used it 😂
MF
01:15
Mr Flintstone
there is also a more hard to use light wallet
01:15
that zack maintains
T
01:15
Tromp
Is myveowallet active?
Z
01:16
Zack
i think they are maintaining it, but the features are minimal.
01:16
they aren't adding the new stuff
T
01:16
Tromp
Awesome thanks
MF
01:16
Mr Flintstone
yeah, it should work for just sending and receiving
01:17
@denis_voskvitsov how much do we have to bet that exantech doesnt add a uniswap interface clone to myveowallet? lol
T
01:17
Tromp
Would like to try to play with the new stuff if it is easy to use
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
01:18
Zack
still like 10 days until the subcurrency update activates
01:18
and like 13 for the AMM update
01:18
probably on that day we will post link in here to try it out and be talking about it
01:19
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/light-node-amoveo if you download it here, you can open it in your browser
01:20
if you are running a full node on the same computer, it can connect. in test mode you can try out the new features.
MF
01:21
Mr Flintstone
hopefully by then it will have an easy to use interface for managing your subcurrency portfolio + trading them in the uniswap equivalent
MF
01:42
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
it would basically be a dac
DV
01:42
Denis Voskvitsov
In reply to this message
let's start from subcurrencies support first. we're looking at current implementation and I think we'll open a DAC for theirs support in MVW soon.
EA
02:04
Eric Arsenault
@zack_amoveo is there a testnet?
Z
02:04
Zack
You can run a one node testnet
EA
02:04
Eric Arsenault
Would be great to be able to test the new features
Z
02:07
Zack
In reply to this message
yeah ill try to set something up.
Nishinoyaaa invited Nishinoyaaa
CD
03:23
Crypt Dweller
Are the people who wrote the Ikigai report here? One of those VEO whales should participate in exantech's DAC
MF
03:26
Mr Flintstone
anyone can create a dac for exantech as well
03:26
just bet myveowallet wont have subcurrencies built in
03:26
and they can accept
DV
03:39
Denis Voskvitsov
still better to contact me first, 'cause the way to a good DAC is the full and correct description of the result.

anyways, I think I'll announce if we're going to build this in a week or two.
Z
04:05
Zack
Currently there are 2 ways for a smart contract to finalize.
1) it can let subcurrency holders exchange for Veo.
2) it can point to some other contract, and subcurrency holders get paid in subcurrencies from that other contract. The other contract needs to have the same source currency as the first contract. So they are compatible.

I am thinking of adding a 3rd.
The smart contract would finalize by pointing another contract which has a different source currency. And it specifies one or more paths through markets to get from one currency to the other.

When this contract finalizes, the person who finalized it can either use the market paths, or match some combination of market paths and swap offers in a big flash loan that results in a better price than the markets.

So the smart contract can pay out to a different smart contract priced in a different subcurrency.

Why do we want that?
Because this enables perpetual stablecoins.

Imagine there is a stablecoin contract A with smaller margins, and stablecoin contract B with bigger margins.

I can use stablecoin A to make whatever contract I want. Maybe betting on the election.

So one day, the margin on my contract is about to run out.

So I go to the election contract, and I show it that the source currency it is priced in is about to hit the margin.
So the election contract, it sells all its source currency with thin margins on the market. And it buys other stablecoins with bigger margins.
Now it can pay out to another election contract, but this time the stablecoins have bigger margins.

So all the bets are still valid, and they are still priced in stablecurrency. And the margin has been raised.
04:07
If you were offline when this happened, that is no problem. You can come back online at any time, and convert your stablecoins and stablecoin priced bets to the current iteration.
04:09
Ideally the smart contract should check the available liquidity before dumping too much money into the markets, and consider paying out in Veo instead.
Ulti invited Ulti
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Ken Saxon invited Ken Saxon
K
07:14
Ken Saxon
hi
07:14
is there still a block explorer somewhere
07:15
any plans to finally connect with eth or is zack still low IQ?
Z
07:17
Zack
In reply to this message
http://explorer.veopool.pw/
K
07:17
Ken Saxon
ok and any eth plans?
07:18
yeah you got a nice dead cat bounce today, but you realize this project is dead if you don’t connect with eth liquidity right?
07:18
it has already been dead
07:20
hilarious, I actually moved up the holder list rankings by a huge amount
07:20
means a lot of people sold during the past year
07:20
at a certain point “weirdness” is just a mental illness
07:21
the reality is obvious that eth is the winner, and you have to cooperate with eth or die
JS
07:21
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Or means that the distribution of coins is now more evenly
K
07:21
Ken Saxon
no thats just dumb way to look at it
07:21
it means the smart money dumped on dumb money
JS
07:21
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Maybe sell your VEO and buy ETH?
K
07:21
Ken Saxon
since I was already in the top 15
07:21
no there might be a pump still for no good reason
07:22
and ill dump everything then
07:22
but in long term its still dead
JS
07:22
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Today is a pump. You can dump today
K
07:22
Ken Saxon
I am one of the biggest holders of Veo and I have 0 faith in the project.
Z
07:22
Zack
We have a price chat channel in discord
MF
07:23
Mr Flintstone
idk why you would do that to yourself lol
K
07:23
Ken Saxon
looking forward to dump this as soon as your hopes are up. you might even buy more when you’re excited 🙂
07:23
great exit liquidity
MF
07:25
Mr Flintstone
the mr flintstone amoveo hope index is permanently fixed at 10 points out of a maximum score of 10
JS
07:29
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
1🧿
A
07:30
Alfie
In reply to this message
@zack_amoveo Have you considered applying for a Web3 grant? You've got all the talent and lowkey hype, imo.
07:31
I'm sure there are technical things I just don't understand, but it's all the rage right now. You're a respected member of the crypto community. It probably wouldn't be too difficult.
07:31
👍
Z
07:33
Zack
Am extra $30k wouldn't matter for anything
07:34
Anyway, amoveo isn't a part of polkadot
MF
07:39
Mr Flintstone
you know whats funny
07:39
if you look at the top 25 holders of amoveo by pubkey on Nov 1 2019
07:39
and you compare it to today
07:39
23/25 are the same
07:40
i did not expect it to be that high. i honestly think i must have made a mistake somehow
07:43
outside of exchanges and zack only 3 have even had flows
07:44
so plz dont get scammed by this C K dude trying to sell you "his coins"
Z
07:45
Zack
C K probably wants to buy in cheap anyway
EA
07:51
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
Although I do agree we need to connect with ETH liquidity, it will be very hard to get traction unless we can get the biggest ecosystem interested
C
09:41
Callum Wright
In reply to this message
it's funny, distribution stats is pretty much visible to everyone
Eugene Norman Daniller invited Eugene Norman Daniller
Deleted invited Deleted Account
J
15:11
Josh
In reply to this message
Didn't totally understand this but I think perpetual stablecoins are a huge feature.
AG
18:29
A G
Does Amoveo's smallest unit have a name?
DV
18:31
Denis Voskvitsov
satoshi. just like in BTC.
ŽM
18:58
Živojin Mirić
is exan tech still active regarding amoveo?
18:58
or on hold?
DV
19:02
Denis Voskvitsov
mostly on hold right now.
also probably we'll support number of new features of Amoveo in MVW this fall.
ŽM
19:04
Živojin Mirić
ok thx
Z
19:05
Zack
it probably makes sense to wait a bit for the features to stabilize before putting them into MVW.
DV
19:05
Denis Voskvitsov
yep, sure
at the best we'll start after hardfork is live.
AG
19:07
A G
Ok thank you Denis.
Z
20:02
Zack
I fixed the bug so the light node can sync past block 12 in test mode.
20:11
im setting up a one-node testnet. put a pubkey in this chat if you want to try it out.
20:34
it has markets and subcurrencies
K
20:35
K
Are there bridges between ETH and VEO? If a dapp on ETH wanted to, could they use the oracle on Amoveo?
Z
20:36
Zack
nothing like that exists
MF
20:38
Mr Flintstone
you could write the light node of amoveo into solidity i guess
20:39
and use the oracle that way, but it does not exist currently
Z
20:39
Zack
seems like the fees would be pretty high
Chestnut invited Chestnut
B
22:12
Ben
does not hold back all the other Uniswap 😉
MF
22:13
Mr Flintstone
degeneracy has no respect for fees
EA
22:56
Eric Arsenault
lol got that right
28 August 2020
Z
01:45
Zack
In reply to this message
no one wants to try it out?
EA
01:46
Eric Arsenault
Yeah I do, just can't right now
Z
01:47
Zack
ok, ill leave it up for now
EA
01:47
Eric Arsenault
BFe5Iz+3X9J60UID+c8VVWeUWmpC2ouPvCJXvJHfIlrhNwhU/YrC7RuVNWR+rhUSysm8RfLtPQzni6RFTPrpoCs=
01:47
can you send me test veo
01:49
It's hard to even know what to do
01:50
I think you or someone needs to think about UX and take it seriously, it will help us refine the product
Z
01:51
Zack
I sent it
EA
01:52
Eric Arsenault
i guess we don't even need VEO to place a bet?
Z
01:52
Zack
you need some currency to place a bet. I sent a testnet-veo to you
01:52
I can make a bet offer for you to accept
EA
01:53
Eric Arsenault
OK, so what should I test? I created a binary contract: MB33Nnt9kc8HPJzvp6aF+fg5Vkysqjo1seDAcViMuS8=
Z
01:58
Zack
["signed",["swap_offer","BLPyEIdHuulZoDWuBJgCK4xnSoTHkirqsgH3phF9LWu9b+Gv1PTOg3CgtDsF4OMMKNtwZL4UKVcJR7DeHY/XTsU=",5,11,"gH7FnGfEaILO4mfDRheYi7XHgLqJ3isbCSAzsECEP14=",1000000,"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=",0,1200000,"HnqvrQmkWUaGuMhYbA+xCgrUNvdUK5E2lNBJvjYrqNw=",1,152050,2],"MEUCIHj3mUcJIq7IOaCsYu27xnc1PO+EbDB9Xsb5quRchU3hAiEAhKHaQS3xEjbBYAsaGh1cX2u/X9HX9HJHpYfxI4Z1gPc=",[-6]]
Here is a swap offer
01:58
I am offering some testnet-veo to buy some shares in a contract
01:59
im going to set up the explorer so we can see the trade in the market
02:01
I installed and turned on the derivatives server
02:01
and published my trade
02:01
the "refresh list of markets" button starts the process of looking up my trade offer
02:02
I am betting that 1=1 at 83.33% odds for "true".
MF
02:02
Mr Flintstone
if i accept, dont i also gain the outcome of false?
Z
02:03
Zack
you would be betting at 16.66% odds for "false"
MF
02:03
Mr Flintstone
like the profits from that, rather than just you gain: 1000000 of veo
Z
02:03
Zack
so you could get 6x your money back
02:03
but only if 1 is not equal to 1.
02:03
or the testnet oracle declares that 1 is not 1
EA
02:10
Eric Arsenault
lol, ie zack
mx
02:15
mr x
In reply to this message
BC/onePSJa25mp5+Cz54cSciAx8RwuXr6rSezgY6KpCZXGxHYlsA9cqnCIUrU6t4nsBog5+j8/McAhUSRy7KkH8=
Z
02:16
Zack
In reply to this message
done
02:16
I should add a button somewhere for other people to mine blocks
mx
02:54
mr x
yeah block 8 plz
Z
03:12
Zack
got it
03:12
looks like you created a contract
Deleted invited Deleted Account
mx
03:28
mr x
yeah now im gonna buy a bunch from both sides??
Z
03:29
Zack
tx pool is currently empty
mx
03:30
mr x
not anymore??
Z
03:30
Zack
now there is a tx
mx
03:30
mr x
yeahh
Z
03:30
Zack
looks like you bought subcurrency in a contract
03:30
are you going to put that subcurrency into a market?
mx
03:33
mr x
market maker?
03:34
im waiting for set buy tx to go through
Z
03:34
Zack
right
03:34
tx pool is empty
03:34
maybe you need to sync headers? it is near the top
03:34
I can make blocks instantly
mx
03:34
mr x
balance still same 0.996...
Z
03:34
Zack
the tx to buy shares went through
03:35
can you look upp your subcurrency balance?
03:35
this page is currently all in units of satoshis
03:35
I didn't convert it to veo yet
03:35
maybe you bought like 1 satoshi
mx
03:35
mr x
oh right
03:36
did a new set buy
Z
03:36
Zack
I see it
03:36
mined it
03:36
0.05 veo
mx
03:36
mr x
yes
03:37
have 0.05 of each now
Z
03:37
Zack
yes
mx
03:37
mr x
third for bad question?
Z
03:37
Zack
yes
03:37
kind of ironic how binary has 3 subcurrency types, and scalar has 2 subcurrency types.
mx
03:38
mr x
.. .😅
Z
03:38
Zack
do you think you can make a market?
mx
03:38
mr x
yes i try understand it first
Z
03:40
Zack
A market is created by depositing 2 kinds of currencies. To be on either side.

You own 3 kinds of currency now.
03:40
You could use any 2 of them to make the market
mx
03:41
mr x
okay
Z
03:41
Zack
the tx pool is still empty
mx
03:41
mr x
or use veo
Z
03:42
Zack
oh right, you have 4 currency types
03:42
you can use any 2 to make the market
mx
03:42
mr x
typo in market creator?
D
03:42
Devender
In reply to this message
Maybe a telegram bot.
mx
03:42
mr x
should be subcurrency contract 2?
Z
03:42
Zack
oh right
03:42
thanks
mx
03:44
mr x
ok did create tx
Z
03:44
Zack
yeah, it created a market
03:45
with 2 kinds of subcurrency from your contract
03:45
types 1 and 2
mx
03:45
mr x
yes
03:45
yes
Z
03:45
Zack
so you should have liquidity shares in that market now
D
03:46
Devender
@zack_amoveo a video tutorial would help. And you don't have to repeat this for new members.
Z
03:47
Zack
a video would be out of date in less than a day
03:47
instead of better instructions, lets make a simpler to use interface
D
03:47
Devender
In reply to this message
That's even better 👍
Z
03:47
Zack
we want it to feel obvious when they look at it
mx
03:47
mr x
going through this is nice to learn how it works
03:48
not for use
Z
03:48
Zack
its nice for me to see how you react to it so far
mx
03:48
mr x
1414213 liquidity shares
Z
03:48
Zack
nice
D
03:48
Devender
Once JS scripts or REST api is created, we can also create a telegram bot. Super easy to make and a good way to engage the community.
Z
03:49
Zack
what is left. you could try doing a swap in the market you created.
or one of us can make a swap and the other accepts it
03:49
oh
03:49
what is the market id? I can trade in your market
mx
03:49
mr x
XoMWr2BxNm+4EBlCVGk8PDN4kv7ZxuPyJnPwMd6WdpI=
MF
03:51
Mr Flintstone
nice
03:51
this is a subcurrency/subcurrency pool?
Z
03:52
Zack
I traded in mr x's market
03:52
In reply to this message
yeah, between type 1 and type 2 of the contract he made
MF
03:52
Mr Flintstone
yep i saw the price move
Z
03:53
Zack
before it was 1000000 - 2000000, now the numbers aren't so even
mx
03:53
mr x
now 997511 and 2005000
Z
03:53
Zack
now ill trade the exact reverse
03:54
oh, I should have done twice as much in the other direction, because the price is about 2x difference
03:55
ill do this trade twice
MF
03:56
Mr Flintstone
the liquidity shares just so happen to be near sqrt(2)?
Z
03:56
Zack
oh, I shouldn't have done twice as much, I should have done half as much. haha
03:56
now it is further off
MF
03:56
Mr Flintstone
or is that cuz the initial ratio was sqrt(2/1)
Z
03:56
Zack
In reply to this message
sqrt(#type1 coins * #type2 coins)
it is in the uniswap docs.
MF
03:56
Mr Flintstone
cool
Z
03:57
Zack
thats why I did that deterministic sqrt math a few days ago
03:59
there we go, I got it almost balanced again
mx
03:59
mr x
yup
Z
03:59
Zack
I was expecting the numbers to be a little lower though, because of the fee
MF
03:59
Mr Flintstone
i havent looked at the docs but maybe this is one of those things where it is supposed to be like x^(1/e)? like not sure why 2 is so special
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
04:00
Zack
In reply to this message
what 2 are you talking about?
MF
04:00
Mr Flintstone
square root
04:00
x^(1/2)
Z
04:01
Zack
does it actually make a difference what the initial number of shares is?
04:01
we just don't want it to ever be a number bigger than can fit in our number of bytes
04:01
and we don't want it so small that a satoshi of value is large
04:03
I think the liquidity fee rounded to zero because my trades were so tiny?
mx
04:06
mr x
So I should have gotte some fee revenue?
Z
04:08
Zack
In reply to this message
you can exchange your liquidity shares for the 2 kinds of coins in the market at any time
04:08
it is exactly the reverse of buying the liquidity shares
04:08
the fee in the market works by paying out slightly less than the current price, so over time if the price moves back and forth, the number of coins per liquidity share will increase
04:09
the total number of liquidity shares stays the same, but the volume of liquidity on each side slowly increases
04:09
so the value per liquidity share is increasing
mx
04:09
mr x
ok cool
04:10
reverse of buying liquidity shares?
04:10
put - in front?
Z
04:10
Zack
when you buy liquidity shares, you pay the 2 kinds of coins in the ratio that they currently exist in the market
04:10
when you sell liquidity shares, you get back the 2 kinds of coins in the ratio that they currently exist in the market
04:10
this way adding/removing liquidity to a market doesn't change the price of that market.
mx
04:14
mr x
ok sold some liqudity shares
Z
04:18
Zack
seems like we are at the usable, but not user-friendly stage.
mx
04:22
mr x
there is no binary oracle creation?
MF
04:26
Mr Flintstone
i think we only use binaries now
04:27
or its like, binary-as-a-scalar
04:27
ya im not sure how to do it in the site zack put up
mx
04:27
mr x
right
Z
04:34
Zack
you just use a normal binary oracle