Amoveo ♥🧿
2 November 2020
Z
18:01
Zack
If you needed to pay to have it stored, that seems like it woulfnt be compatible with gossip.
But maybe a mixed solution will be best.
18:02
Like usual, i will start with something simple and wait for someone to complain that it isnt good enough.
J
18:04
Josh
sounds good
3 November 2020
Z
08:22
Zack
I updated the p2p_derivatives_explorer tool.
That is where we are currently storing oracle text and other stablecoin-type smart contract data that stays off-chain.
Now it cleans out unused contract data, and it has an api so you can sync the oracle data from one node to others. So you can have a backup of the data needed to resolve the contracts eventually.
08:22
it is also useful for testing, because I can run a clone of that server on my local machine.
N
08:23
NM$L
Zack,How's going？
08:33
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/Amoveo_p2p_derivatives_explorer I updated the bottom of the readme on how to do the syncing.
JS
09:31
Jon Snow
Zack, what’s on top of your current to do list?
09:32
@zack_amoveo
Z
09:36
Zack
currently if you try to sell inverse shares for stablecoin shares, it doesn't work.
I want to find out why, and fix it.
JS
10:34
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Any work you want to use DAC to fund right now?
s
15:15
sanket
https://twitter.com/lawmaster/status/1323515665349779463?s=19

Do we have something on amoveo also?
Z
17:35
Zack
unfortunately, the interface isn't ready to do much betting
4 November 2020
Z
08:39
Zack
I got selling long-veo for stablecoins working.
EA
08:40
Eric Arsenault
👍
Z
08:42
Zack
In reply to this message
That is backwards.
When it comes to employment, an employer is supposed to seek out the employee to accomplish a defined job.
That is for the old system with hierarchy. Where there was a central authority with a plan.
With DAC, there is no central authority. We don't know what we want.
We don't know what can be made at what cost.

The worker makes a proposal, based on what they know they can do. We assess if it if profitable for us to participate in the proposed contract or not.
mx
08:44
mr x
How about DAC to reward people?
08:45
no need for proposal that are subject to change anyway
Z
08:45
Zack
seems like you can't buy insurance if you already know the outcome.
Everyone would free-ride and not pay.
mx
08:46
mr x
Right. That's why we need to give money printing powers to the chain.
Z
08:47
Zack
that has nothing to do with DAC, derivatives, or amoveo.
mx
08:48
mr x
But also rewarding people with DAC could lead to increase in price of token so people would be incentivized to participate with a fraction of their veo.
08:49
Solving public good problems has bunch to with all chains?
08:52
Yeah guess I'm little confused what DAC is.
Z
08:53
Zack
DAC means people buy insurance against the possibility that a public good will not get created.
If enough people buy insurance, then it becomes profitable to provide the public good, and to take the opposite side of the insurance contracts.
08:54
it can be in your own interest to buy insurance, as a way to hedge your risk. So this is a way to incentivize each person to participate in proportion to how much the public good will benefit them personally.
mx
08:59
mr x
Still requires kinda precise specification what is needed?
Z
09:00
Zack
I think that isn't necessarily the case
09:00
say whatever you need to say to get people to be willing to participate in the contract.
And then later the oracle will decide if what you built matches what you had said you would build.
mx
09:03
mr x
Building stuff is ongoing process. There is no clear point when job is done. This would even require keeping your stuff secret without feedback?
Z
09:04
Zack
building stuff is ongoing, but you can divide that up into discrete tasks.
Why would you need to keep anything secret?
mx
09:06
mr x
Dunno. You build something and then only release when you can make enough money?
Z
09:07
Zack
oh, like if you are worried that you wont be able to build it. so you build it first before making the contract
09:08
in that case you only need to build the bare minimum to convince yourself that you can do it.
mx
09:09
mr x
hmm ok
09:10
just print money with futarchy
09:11
look this guy seems to have done something useful/about to do something useful... i propose printing money for him will lead to higher token price/hash rate compared to not printing...
Z
09:11
Zack
this community does use futarchy for hard for proposals. printing money is a kind of hard fork proposal.
mx
09:11
mr x
yes
09:11
hard fork to give money printing powers would be kinda crazy experiment
Z
09:12
Zack
so if you want it to happen, you can make futarchy markets as evidence for why it should happen
mx
09:12
mr x
yea i wanna make futarchy about giving veo money printing powers xD
CD
16:22
Crypt Dweller
Feel free to disregard this as the ravings of a lunatic, but I estimate you have 6-8 months to launch an MVP derivatives trading platform, with simplified and intuitive UI, and become the next shiny thing in DeFi before the grim reaper comes for speculators across all markets and the "crypto" market collapses into nuclear winter. Amoveo can still survive as long as you keep coding, but the window of opportunity for attracting users in the current market environment is closing fast, I believe. I would think of the criticality of the next few quarters as comparable the crucial moments when PayPal secured a big round of funding right before the DotCom bubble burst, which enabled it to survive.
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5 November 2020
m
05:49
mm
@zack_amoveo what's up with the idea of attacking PoS blockchains? still theory?
Z
05:55
Zack
In reply to this message
We are getting there bit by bit.
The oracle and state channels are an ideal medium for making the bribes.
m
05:56
mm
In reply to this message
what's missing? War... roadmap?
Z
05:58
Zack
I think amoveo needs to regularly and consistently enforce other smaller kinds of contracts before we try bribing hundreds of stakers at once.
Otherwise they will be nervous to use untested tech for such a sensitive bribe.
07:34
this is quite popular
07:36
i wonder when people would start to use crypto version of bettings sites like bet365
07:38
Satoshi DIce was the first gambling app in the early days of bitcoin, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Satoshi_Dice
07:40
Blockchain-based betting game SatoshiDice has been sold for 126,315 BTC, which at the time of writing was worth around $11.47 million. SatoshiDice (S. DICE), which claims to be “the most popular Bitcoin betting game in the universe”, was launched by its operator Erik Voorhees in late April 2012. (2013.7)
JS
07:43
Jon Snow
When can we see a working beautiful Amoveo product that I can introduce to my non-crypto friends?
x
07:44
x
problem seems to be they prefer USD for trading
07:45
problably we just need a good app for crypto traders
6 November 2020
JS
08:45
Jon Snow
Will Amoveo product ready for the next bill market?
B
08:46
Beer
In reply to this message
unlikely :p
JS
09:11
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
What do you think @zack_amoveo
x
09:11
x
In reply to this message
"an MVP derivatives trading platform" I'm not aware of this did zack mention anywhere he will be building a derivativs trading platform?
09:11
In reply to this message
it's not clear to me . which part is missing?
JS
09:21
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
It’s not ready to be introduced to regular people
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7 November 2020
Z
08:11
Zack
Vitalik Buterin wrote about why he thinks PoS can work. So I added a link to his blog post and a discussion about it to the defense of PoS document
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//other_blockchains/the_defence_of_pos.md
JS
08:21
Jon Snow
Let’s show the world a working Amoveo product
JS
08:44
Jon Snow
A working product is better than a perfect written document
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Z
17:01
Zack
I set it up so the buttons change color to indicate your current tab.
8 November 2020
JS
08:55
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Fancy
Z
18:49
Zack
I think i might have a solution for merged mining.
Every child chain block produced should require spending some parent chain coins.

The parent chain has an order book of people who want to buy child money. When these orders are matched, they have the privilege to forge the next child chain block.

On the child chain there is an order book of people who want to sell the child coins to get their bitcoin out. In order to make an order in this book, you need to schedule the limit price ahead, and wait a 100 block bonding period for the order to get into the order book.
That way the cost of a takeover where the attacker censors anyone else from accessing the child order book so he can have control of 100% block production, this attack is 100x more expensive to execute in comparison to the cost to prevent an attack.

Every child block swaps the same amount of parent money. Only the amount of child money being swapped changes to make the different prices in the order book.

The fork choice rule for the child chain is to apply a weight of 1 to every child block. This way purchasers of child money are incentivize to reveal the child block as quickly as possible. If their block is orphaned, they lose their bitcoin but do not get pain any child currency. This is similar to the game theory for why bitcoin miners are incentivized to reveal their blocks.

I call it "auction merged mining".
If it works, then maybe pow is scalable, but currencies are not.
That would lead to a very diverse financial future. A Cambrian explosion of currencies.
18:56
Maybe some blockchains will be pow optimized, and others are smart contract or payment optimized, and they cooperate
9 November 2020
R
04:06
Rom
In reply to this message
Is it a joke? I think you are working on the interface design ... I have the impression that this project will never progress ...
Z
06:46
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/blog_posts/auction_merged_mining.md
I wrote a blog post about auction merged mining.
JS
07:59
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
How is this related to Amoveo?
07:59
In reply to this message
Zack doesn’t do joke, only meme
Z
08:15
Zack
In reply to this message
if merged mining is possible, that changes some big picture strategic goals.
It means we probably want amoveo split into 2 blockchains. one for the pow, and the other for smart contracts.
JS
08:54
Jon Snow
Why do we want that?
sC
11:43
siti Community
Hello any admin I could contact to propose a AMA session
Z
14:11
Zack
In reply to this message
We want amoveo to be as big as it can be.
If pow chains and smart contract chains need to be separated to succeed in the long run, then we should separate them, so we have a chance to succeed in the long run.
WL
14:39
Wilson Lau
In reply to this message
This make lots of sense. One for secrity transaction, one for utilities. Capturing both advantage at the same time. Good for long term success.
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10 November 2020
JS
01:30
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
When can we start marketing Amoveo for the broader audience usage?
K
01:34
K
In reply to this message
Preferably when someone builds a nice UI.
s
01:34
sanket
In reply to this message
+1
x
01:42
x
In reply to this message
seems to be a very big change
R
02:58
Rom
In reply to this message
+2
EA
03:05
Eric Arsenault
why not just focus on current product, finding PMF before work on merged mining? it does seem like big change
I
03:06
Instinct
In reply to this message
👆
JS
03:18
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
+1087
03:32
In reply to this message
echo Eric’s point here. We can always have a Phase II development after finding an initial PMF given we are pretty close to a usable product after close to 2 years development. So for now, shipping out a working useful product is more important.
Z
07:37
Zack
I am thinking about the new standard oracle formats.
Here is an example of the current standard:
W = coinpaprika.com; T = 12:00 10-29-2020 China Standard Time (GMT+8); ticker = USD; return(the price of ticker at time T according to website W) * 157903209

Here is the new stablecoin standard I am planning
standard stablecoin 0; ticker_path = [veo, btc, usd]; website_path = [qtrade.io, coinpaprika.com]; time = 12:00 10-29-2020 China Standard Time (GMT+8); price = 1; for(i=0; i<website_path.length; i++){ price *= (the price of ticker_path[i] in ticker_path[i+1] according to website[i]) }; return(price * 157903209);

here is a standard for betting on a blockchain's hashrate
standard hashrate 0; blockchain = Bitcoin; units = "million terahashes per second"; max = 200; min = 40; time = 12:00 10-29-2020 China Standard Time (GMT+8); website = blockchain.com; h = hashrate of blockchain according to website; return(4294967295 * ((h/units)-min) / (max-min));
07:38
but I wonder if we should instead be betting on difficulty, or possibly the log of the hashrate.
mx
08:08
mr x
total work?
Z
08:09
Zack
total work done by a certain date? yeah, that might make more sense
mx
08:09
mr x
yup
Z
08:09
Zack
I wonder if there is a difference between how miners would want to use this to hedge their mining risk vs how we would want to use this for futarchy
08:10
is there is a good way to look up the total work for bitcoin?
mx
08:11
mr x
maybe http://bitcoin.sipa.be/
08:11
Total cumulative number of hashes
08:12
guess it only has the chart with no number lol
Z
08:13
Zack
well, I guess we mostly want to do futarchy for amoveo anyway. so we can make this data very available for amoveo.
mx
08:13
mr x
yes
08:13
it is so available that you could automate the whole process onchain :P
Z
08:37
Zack
I guess ill focus on the stablecoin one first.
08:37
im setting up a regex for it
/standard\s+stablecoin\s+0\s*;\s*ticker_path\s*=\s*\[(\w+\s*,\s*)*\w+\s*\]\s*;\s*website_path\s*=\s*\[([^,\]]+,\s*)[^,\]]+\]\s*;\s*time\s*=[^;]+;\s*price\s*=\s*1\s*;\s*for\(i=0; i<website_path\.length; i\+\+\)\{ price \*= \(the price of ticker_path\[i\] in ticker_path\[i\+1\] according to website\[i\]\) \};\s*scale\s*=\s*\d+\s*;\s*return\(price\s*\*\s*scale\);/
JS
08:44
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Yeah good choice 👍
Z
09:21
Zack
I think we want this new oracle format to support leverage
09:21
right?
09:21
so instead of a stable bitcoin, you could have 2x leveraged bitcoin.
09:21
basically shorting veo with leverage
EA
12:26
Eric Arsenault
makes sense
mx
14:44
mr x
whats with the china standard time?
14:49
why not just gmt?
B
14:58
Ben
UTC would be best i guess.
mx
15:07
mr x
yeah
C
16:24
Callum Wright
In reply to this message
so we're gonna have 2 chains?
Z
17:05
Zack
China has one time zone for a lot of people.
Utc is for what, a bit of England, Spain, and Morocco?
J
18:44
Josh
And Portugal.
A
18:54
Adrian
I think it is more universal conversation. It is easy for user to convert time into their time zone.
Z
18:55
Zack
I think we will have a default time of day and hide this from any interface anyway.
You only see that part of the text for reporting the result to the oracle.
18:56
I think people dont want stablecoins with expirations in less than a day.
18:56
Especially since the oracle process is longer than a day
18:58
The system is more efficient if a larger fraction of your money is in active contracts, and a smaller fraction is locked up waiting for the unbonding time.
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11 November 2020
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12 November 2020
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Z
08:41
Zack
http://159.89.87.58:8080/wallet.html?hide_non_standard=true
I shortened the text that gets displayed for each contract.
I also change the standard for oracle text for scalar oracles. the new standard can grab the veo/btc price from qtrade, and the btc/usd price from coinmarketcap, and we didn't need to make the UX any more complicated.
JS
09:57
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Regular Joe user ready yet?
EA
13:51
Eric Arsenault
Getting there!
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13 November 2020
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JS
09:47
Jon Snow
Can we have the Amoveo product customer ready before BTC hit 20k?
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14 November 2020
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Z
08:43
Zack
I updated the pool tab to use a pulldown for choosing which contract to deposit into. like how the swap tab works now.
I updated the create tab to use pulldowns to choose the date for when to look up the price. this prevents errors in date formatting.
JS
09:22
Jon Snow
What’s next
Z
09:23
Zack
A bigger feature i am looking into is merging the amm and order books.
So if you try to make a trade, it will use both to get the best price. And if the price isnt good enough, you can post your trade in the order book instead of immediately executing it.
JS
09:43
Jon Snow
Sounds like a good feature uniswap should have
EA
12:56
Eric Arsenault
Yeah, good for low liquidity pairs I assume
mx
12:58
mr x
Also closing positions for which outcome has become clear I think?
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T
21:22
Topab
This is more data feeds than oracle but to help keep the group updated on what is going on I send you this https://www.coindesk.com/chainlink-killer-api3-closes-3m-funding-round-with-placeholder-and-pantera
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mx
22:24
mr x
"on-chain data feeds" 🤪
Z
22:30
Zack
If you are trusting some central authority to sign a message for how your smart contract should be settled, they can sign an off-chain message, and this signature can be used to enforce contracts on any blockchain.

The idea that the central authority should pay tx fees to keep posting the signed data on-chain is bad.
A large cost for no benefit.

Trusting third parties to sign off on how a contract should resolve, this isnt a new service.
I saw people doing this with bitcoin in 2014.
15 November 2020
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16 November 2020
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17 November 2020
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JS
03:42
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Oh man, it is happening
EA
06:12
Eric Arsenault
😂
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R
18:23
Rom
zack is alive ? Do you still believe in this project ? I'm missing all the trains because I'm stuck with no vision.
18:24
zack wake up, stop twitter and work on the interface and marketing
18:25
or hire people to do it
18 November 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
EA
05:05
Eric Arsenault
rug pull? 😂
JS
06:06
Jon Snow
?
Z
06:08
Zack
Im alive.
I took a few sick days. I might need a couple more.
Ill be back at it soon.
JS
07:10
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Covid？
07:10
In reply to this message
It got filled
OK
07:16
O K
Take your time Zack, hope you feel better soon.
I
07:30
Instinct
In reply to this message
+1
JS
07:34
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
+1
EA
14:49
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
+1
S
16:09
Sebsebzen
Get well soon
EW
19:31
Eli W
In reply to this message
+1
19:32
Get well soon
19:32
🍀
B
23:44
Ben
take care zack, don't return to early
19 November 2020
R
00:03
Rom
I dont understand, i am the only one to have invested in the project ... it should rather say come back quickly, the BTC is at 18k it is now or never for VEO.
s
00:09
sanket
I guess it requires patience. If you can contribute to help zack, it would be great. Else, no point in just asking it to moon
35x70=likes saves promo invited 35x70=likes saves promo
3p
00:49
35x70=likes saves promo
Any admin here
R
01:07
Rom
In reply to this message
Yes I understand your position, I don't want to rush Zack, but 2 years of patience is starting to take a long time...
EA
02:01
Eric Arsenault
we are getting closer
CD
03:15
Crypt Dweller
Zack, get well soon! Don't stop doing your pullups routine once you recover 😃
D
04:36
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
When metacartel investment sir?
EA
05:08
Eric Arsenault
lol
05:08
eth focused
C
10:10
Callum Wright
In reply to this message
get well soon mate
Z
21:31
Zack
https://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/jwuj4h/lawsuit_tyson_managers_bet_money_on_how_many/ betting on how many people will get sick with covid in a meat packing plant seems like a great use-case of futarchy. But it sure seems to have made a lot of people mad.
20 November 2020
EA
00:25
Eric Arsenault
Andre Conje is working on call / puts. I really like how there is a text written description of the bet (in grey): https://twitter.com/andrecronjetech/status/1329369275291856896?s=21
00:26
I think something like this would be helpful for Amoveo
s
01:32
sanket
Yeah I like how it's easy is to figure out what is it you are buying.
OK
02:14
O K
In reply to this message
😂
Z
03:02
Zack
Do we want options contracts?
It seems to me that options are popular because of limitations in old school finance, and those limitations no longer exist with blockchains. Swaps seem more appropriate.
Is there something i am missing?
03:07
Options are popular because only one side of the contract is being trusted. The other party can walk away.
So it works well for a single big trusted institution that all the traders connect to.
03:08
That way the government only ever needs to enforce punishments against the big institution, not against small fry traders.
EA
03:09
Eric Arsenault
Not sure. I just liked the copy explaining the bets
Z
03:47
Zack
Ok, it should be doable for us too
MF
03:49
Mr Flintstone
options are popular versus swaps because risk is convex and not linear
03:50
and options can have a convex payout profile
Dext King invited Dext King
D
04:55
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Yes, we can wrap VEO. wVEO. Problem solved. 🙂
I
06:06
Instinct
In reply to this message
Lol
Z
06:51
Zack
How much do we need to change to make options?

If instead of referencing the price of bitcoin, we referenced max(0, ((price of btc) - (out of money price))), does that do it?
MF
07:26
Mr Flintstone
we already have binary options?
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Z
16:44
Zack
In reply to this message
The binary options that include "bad question" work at the protocol level.
But it is disabled in the light wallet because the trading AI cant calculate the optimal trade path.

If you configure the scalar derivative contract correctly, it behaves like a binary contract. Either giving all the money to one side, or to the other.
s
16:58
sanket
In reply to this message
Is that possible?
X
19:04
X | NPC
Exantech is on it
Z
19:06
Zack
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/100098/adding-instead-of-concatenating-hashes-in-merkle-trees/100102?stw=2#100102

Maybe amoveo should do addition instead of concatenation for merkle proofs.
We could also change the tree from base 8 to base 256.

We need to double the size of output of the hash function to maintain security. 2x more expensive.
But each step of the merkle proof is only referencing a single hash, not 8. So a 8x improvement.
And the length of the proof decreases from log8 (# accounts) to log256 (# accounts)

All together, proofs would be would be 4*log8 (256) = 32/3
Times shorter.

Length of the proof is critical in amoveo, because each block includes all the merkle proofs you need to verify all the consensus state used in that block. These proofs make up the vast majority of the block size.

I think this could result in a 10x scalability improvement.
19:07
Although, if we account for the fact that blocks are compressed before sending, the savings are probably much more modest.
19:08
It would be nice if blocks didnt blow up so big when we unzip them. I have crashed nodes this way.
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21 November 2020
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Z
04:20
Zack
In reply to this message
Oh, it doesnt work.
Because you cant securely know what to xor with the hash of your witness to calculate the root.
JS
04:22
Jon Snow
Zack is back, sound and health!
....... ....... invited ....... .......
Z
08:21
Zack
There is a channel in discord for price chat
..
08:24
....... .......
What's the discord link please
Z
08:25
Zack
Links are all on the github
08:25
See pinned post
C
12:10
Callum Wright
is the current supply on https://explorer.veopool.pw/ correct?
Z
12:13
Zack
yes. you can confirm on any full node as well http://159.89.87.58:8080/ext/getmoneysupply
22 November 2020
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Z
06:05
Zack
http://159.89.87.58:8080/wallet.html
I am starting to set up binary contracts again. this time without the "bad question" option, that way it is compatible with the swap tool.
JS
07:55
Jon Snow
When is Amoveo normies ready?
07:56
So we can share it with more normal people
M
11:54
Max
Ok, normie here!
11:55
Let’s say I want to mine veo
11:55
Where to get started?
11:56
And even more important, how do I buy it without an exchange
11:56
Or best exchange will due as well
11:57
Follow this for a while now
12:00
Seems like HitBTC is an option on coingecko
12:00
Or Qtrade
12:05
Can anyone in here shill me this in uniswap degen style?
12:07
Seriously interested in the talk in here I cannot comprehend
12:10
In see the fpga part on GitHub
12:10
That still accurate?
12:10
Profitable for anyone
12:10
Or you just mine to hold
s
12:55
sanket
In reply to this message
Hahaha. wish that would happen.
I am not sure, there was an idea to make wrapped veo, but not sure where its at right now
12:56
In reply to this message
Zack has written about it on his GitHub, not sure how accurate it is
12:56
In reply to this message
I highly doubt it's profitable
12:57
There are no concrete ideas to make it a user friendly product, rather than complex math.
12:57
In reply to this message
@Simon3456 or @mr_flintstone can maybe help
C invited C
S
15:44
Sy
I'm pretty sure it's FPGA dominated and even then there should be no profit
X
15:57
X | NPC
In reply to this message
👆
Z
17:45
Zack
In reply to this message
Qtrade is probably better than hitbtc
M
18:51
Max
Thanks all! 👍🏼
18:54
I might have a look on qtrade then
18:56
@zack_amoveo keep up that high IQ talk, at least I enjoy it
18:56
Will try to wrap my head around it
18:58
In reply to this message
If I understand correctly people in here believe in this product, but feel like they miss out on the latest market conditions
19:05
Wrapped Veo would be cool!
19:06
Would instantly buy a little bag
B
19:19
Ben
In reply to this message
thats a good summary.
Z
20:21
Zack
Anyone have ideas on what futarchy markets we can make to help people anticipate the impact of the virus panic?
s
20:23
sanket
In reply to this message
Maybe regarding travel and hospitality industry
x
23:19
x
how about futarchy market for veo price
23:20
and bitcoin
23:30
In reply to this message
it has more to to do with money printing
23:32
if someone want to dump or pump the veo price, he can make additional profit by creating a betting market first. but it seems no one will participate, because most people don't know how to use amoveo for betting
s
23:53
sanket
Yeah it's needs to as simple as using uniswap
C
23:56
Cresus
Veo have to use link ?
23 November 2020
Z
09:35
Zack
Links are all on the github. See the pinned message.
B
14:50
Ben
we end up always in a chicken/egg situation, without a usable UI we will go nowhere.
Z
16:52
Zack
We have a price chat channel in discord
24 November 2020
K
00:10
K
In amoveo cant big wallets just collide to win bets?
Cryptid Collective invited Cryptid Collective
Z
00:22
Zack
In reply to this message
If you lose your bet, then you lose your bet. It doesnt matter how big your wallet is.
Z
03:12
Zack
http://159.89.87.58:8080/wallet.html I changed the AMM swap tool. now it says how much liquidity instead of open interest. and it doesn't display contracts with low liquidity.
13:25
This is a great initiative. Can we see something like this built here? or are too early for this
13:25
GnosisDAO uses futarchy (prediction markets) to guide proposals, and anyone can participate by joining the Gnosis Forum.
mx
13:36
mr x
Impact sounds like nice way to summarize current state of futarchy
Z
16:13
Zack
How is that different from the dao, which failed spectacularly?
You would think that ethereum had learned its lesson by now. Voting is insecure.
mx
16:51
mr x
Yeah onchain voting is pure wtfery. Was wondering if there is way to present futarchy in ui as purely "bet on this outcome if you believe it has higher impact than currently estimated"?
s
17:08
sanket
In reply to this message
But, can we use Futarchy instead of on-chain voting with VEO and use that to develop the ecosystem?
Z
17:09
Zack
In reply to this message
I think the tool you are looking for is like this: first we bet on whether a proposal will get accepted or rejected.
So now you can divide veo into the 2 types. One is worth veo if the proposal is accepted, one is worth veo if the proposal is rejected.

Next we use usd-stablecoin to build an identical contract. So now we have 2 more types of shares. One is worth usd if the proposal is accepted, one is worth usd if the proposal is rejected.

Next we make 2 amm markets. We make a market between (veo conditional on accepting the proposal) with (usd conditional on accepting the proposal)
And we make a market between (veo conditional on rejecting the proposal) with (usd conditional on rejecting the proposal)

By comparing the prices in the 2 markets, you can see how the proposal will impact the price of veo.
17:13
In reply to this message
We have been using futarchy to make decisions in amoveo since the beginning.

Merely the threat that futarchy might get used is a great way to diffuse politics and propaganda. There is no reason to waste money on propaganda, if it just results in a futarchy market that takes away the propagandists influence over the decision.
mx
17:18
mr x
If there was some big (protocol subsidized?) onchain market on future price or hashrate...
Z
17:19
Zack
In reply to this message
Why would we subsidize that?
mx
17:19
mr x
it could be as reference for futarchies?
17:19
dunno
17:19
maybe it's public good
17:22
guess peoples willingness to manipualte provides enough liquidity
Z
17:22
Zack
What does a subsidy even look like anyway?
We should print free money and give it to people who make bad bets?
mx
17:22
mr x
buying liquidity shares at market price?
Z
17:25
Zack
If a decision is controversial, then liquidity shares will be profitable.
If it isn't controversial, then we dont need futarchy to make the decision.

If we start handing out free money in the form of bad bets, that is like paying spammers to attack us with propaganda. They want to trick us into giving away money in situations where they can take it.
17:32
I want people to spend time thinking of ways to improve amoveo, and then using futarchy to profitably demonstraight that it would be an improvement.

I do not want people to spam us with propaganda trying to trick us into giving them free money.
s
17:40
sanket
In reply to this message
Well said.
mx
17:44
mr x
"The thicker are these markets (perhaps via subsidies), the stronger are the incentives for speculators to learn what is actually effective in achieving that welfare"
Z
17:46
Zack
In reply to this message
If you think a futarchy market could improve from a subsidy, then you should use futarchy to give us evidence to back up your claim.
mx
17:46
mr x
Absolutely
s
17:55
sanket
In reply to this message
To make it better, I think we need to make it simple and easy to use.

For e.g: The wallet is a bit confusing to understand. It's not like other standard crypto wallet.

I would expect something much easier to use. Like a UI which says, load private key and it loads and shows that wallet is now connected

Then, all the different types of open market on veo, need to be shown in a list form.
If I wanna bet, I just click 1 or 2 buttons and participate in it.
Right now finding the market, connecting the wallet to it and then placing or following the bet is tough.

It's need to be 2-3 steps process at max.

I understand not everything can be done by Zack, but I imagine it needs to be simple for people to understand and use it
17:56
Maybe, that's where we can use help from community
mx
18:04
mr x
In reply to this message
Well yeah... I just want to be a Futarch to drive my points home xD
Nikita invited Nikita
25 November 2020
R
00:32
Rom
Are there any sane people here to give a clear road map for the project?
00:43
Functional interface ; when ?
ŽM
00:44
Živojin Mirić
you have to wait atleast another 2 bull/bear cycles
R
00:44
Rom
Exchange listing ; when ?
ŽM
00:44
Živojin Mirić
hold your horses, civilization changing level software development is happening here
Z
00:45
Zack
In reply to this message
Try out the light node in the browser
R
00:50
Rom
In reply to this message
Frankly I don't understand anything about this interface
OK
00:52
O K
In reply to this message
Have you tried asking the futarchy?
00:53
In reply to this message
It's already trading on a great exchange, qtrade.
R
00:56
Rom
In reply to this message
Frankly I don't understand anything about this interface
00:57
In reply to this message
Good joke
D
01:18
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
I have betrothed my VEO to my unborn grandchildren.
x
01:22
x
i just suggested tags here: https://coinpaprika.com/coin/veo-amoveo/
01:24
all of these websites are not aware that amoveo is a DeFi project too
R
01:28
Rom
In reply to this message
That was my last point; Marketing ; when ?
x
01:29
x
In reply to this message
you can help by contacting the website above
01:29
sent them emails
R
01:30
Rom
This project is an empty shell run by a hippie ! Bye
MC
01:31
Mr Crypto
In reply to this message
😂
x
01:39
x
anyway
01:39
i just sent emails to the websites above
01:39
it's a big mistake of them
01:39
because they have listed amoveo, they must be blind
TG
01:40
Toby Ganger
In reply to this message
they’re likely to be waiting for a usable UI and marketing as well
D
01:41
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Unfortunately yes
Z
01:42
Zack
There are thousands of cryptocurrencies. Its understandable if they cant keep them all up to date.
Especially since "defi" wasnt a word when we got listed on this places.
I
01:49
Instinct
In reply to this message
Good
OK
04:58
O K
In reply to this message
That's a new one.
B
05:00
Beer
lol
CD
08:45
Crypt Dweller
If only Zack would stop smoking weed and get off his couch, we'd finally be going somewhere
M
13:07
MKUltra
In reply to this message
i recommend Jenkem instead of weed @cryptdweller

it will get you going somewhere for sure
26 November 2020
z
01:01
zhaxzhax
Does amoveo have a total supply like Bitcoin's 21million?
JT
01:19
John Tromp
no
01:20
reward can be changed by voting
I
01:26
Instinct
In reply to this message
It can be decided by futarchy not voting
Z
02:07
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes.
We use futarchy.
Voting us insecure.
Z
06:57
Zack
I set up the explorer tool to sort contracts by liquidity in the markets instead of sorting by the total amount of subcurrency.
06:59
im thinking of making pages dedicated to looking up info about contracts and markets. possibly including historical price data in a chart.
and I want to link to them from the text on the AMM swap page. when you set up a trade and it tells you about the slippage. I want to add a link in that text.
This way you can know about the source collateral for a contract for example.
07:01
https://ethfans.org/posts/the-defence-of-pos looks like someone converted a page of the docs into chinese
Deleted invited Deleted Account
JS
07:37
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Wow, that’s a lot of translation work
Z
07:41
Zack
could have been google translate
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
MostafaM invited MostafaM
Chun Lee invited Chun Lee
27 November 2020
01:18
Are all defi platforms vulnerable to oracle attacks?
MF
01:26
Mr Flintstone
most of them are
01:26
uniswap isnt
01:26
and augur isnt to the same extent as this one
01:29
i think compound intentionally hid what their oracles were to prevent this from happening but clearly it just delays the inevitable
s
01:34
sanket
In reply to this message
Yeah. They also had a single reporter
JS
02:43
Jon Snow
So Amoveo and Chainlink market cap parity soon?
Deleted invited Deleted Account
EA
04:05
Eric Arsenault
Wow that’s pretty bad
04:07
What’s your next set of priorities @zack_amoveo ?
Z
04:47
Zack
In reply to this message
@eric_rsno
I think this is important because we need to have source currency other than veo in order to do futarchy type applications
JS
04:52
Jon Snow
Amoveo right now is still more like an academic project than a real product and everything seems very experimental with no consideration of users acquisition
04:52
Like a CS major homework
04:53
It needs to be more like a real product than a CS major homework
ŽM
05:09
Živojin Mirić
Yes
EA
05:18
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
So is this mainly just a page that shows slippage? Or previous trades for a given pair? A simple chart would be cool
Z
05:19
Zack
Im not sure what "show slippage" means in this context.
Itis to display info about the contract.
EA
05:20
Eric Arsenault
I was just referring to your "when you set up a trade and it tells you about the slippage."
05:20
Where do perpetuals fit into your roadmap plans?
05:21
Feels like that's the big missing piece (along with a nice UI)
Z
05:21
Zack
Like, a list of amm that are connected to it. The smart contract code, how many subcurrencies it defines. The source currency for that contract.
05:22
In reply to this message
If you are making a trade, "slippage" means the difference between the price before you made your trade and the average price that you pay for the trade
05:23
We probably want a similar page to look up info about each amm.
EA
06:58
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
aren't we only dealing with the single AMM for now?
Z
06:58
Zack
when you make a contract, it creates 3 AMM automatically.
EA
06:59
Eric Arsenault
does the user need to know this though?
Z
06:59
Zack
for example, if you use veo to make a contract to bet on whether trump will win, then there are 3 currencies.
veo, trump-win, and trump-lose.
there are 3 ways to make pairs between those currencies, each pair is an AMM.
07:00
the user does not need to know what an automatic market maker is, no.
07:00
neither do they need to know how many of them exist, or that amoveo uses them
EA
07:00
Eric Arsenault
right
07:00
so what is important for the user?
Z
07:01
Zack
what user?
EA
07:01
Eric Arsenault
lol
07:01
our eventual ones
Z
07:01
Zack
depends what they want to do
EA
07:01
Eric Arsenault
Let's go with people wanting to accept a trade
07:02
I guess I'm just wondering what those pages you are working on solves for those users
Z
07:02
Zack
In reply to this message
if we have a futarchy market as described in the linked post, then it is important to be able to compare the prices in the 2 AMM markets
EA
07:03
Eric Arsenault
futarchy feels like it isn't a priority tbh
Z
07:03
Zack
I feel differently
EA
07:04
Eric Arsenault
Don't we need volume in order for futarchy to work?
Z
07:04
Zack
controversial advice from a futarchy tool will bring attention.
07:04
In reply to this message
no.
07:04
like, if futarchy tells us that some pandemic restrictions are actually increasing the number of deaths, that would bring attention.
EA
07:04
Eric Arsenault
why not focus on building a good products for derivatives, perps, etc... simple to use
07:04
then introduce futarchy
07:05
I'm afraid nobody will place bets on futarchy unless the tool is simple first
Z
07:05
Zack
being able to look up the price in an AMM is an important part of making it simple to use.
EA
07:06
Eric Arsenault
yeah, it is
07:06
agreed
07:07
so maybe that's all you need, is just a page displaying price history
Z
07:08
Zack
it is a step in the right direction.
EA
07:09
Eric Arsenault
Maybe in that case, you can just have one page with all the offers. Then you can click on offers to see the details and price history, and accept a trade or place your own trade...

Right now, I think we have a list of offers, then a bunch of things you can do. Might be better to put all of this on the trade pages.
07:10
Maybe it would improve usability
Z
07:10
Zack
all what offers?
EA
07:10
Eric Arsenault
sorry, the contracts
Z
07:10
Zack
http://159.89.87.58:8080/wallet.html this page?
07:10
the "swap" tab
07:11
im thinking when you select a contract to buy from the dropdown, along with displaying price and slippage, it can give you a link to a page with lots more details about that contract
07:11
and that page can give links to all the AMM connected to that contract.
EA
07:12
Eric Arsenault
yeah, that works
07:12
I still don't really get why you need "a link to a page with lots more details about that contract"... if you are giving the price and slippage on this page
07:13
maybe for a chart
Z
07:13
Zack
price and slippage are specific to the trade you are making. based on what asset you are spending, and how much you are spending.
EA
07:13
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
I know, I agree we need price and slippage on this page
Z
07:13
Zack
I want to have a URL for each contract, that way you can copy/paste the URL to someone so they know exactly what asset you are talking about.
EA
07:14
Eric Arsenault
oh OK, that makes sense
07:14
I think all of the info on this page http://159.89.87.58:8080/wallet.html should also be on those pages too
07:15
Then maybe all of the contracts are just a dropdown in the top menu... and you can navigate between them easily, see charts, place trades
Z
07:16
Zack
the wallet page is for loading your private key and browsing what kinds of trades are available.
the contract pages are for price history charts and details about the specific definition of a particular asset
EA
07:17
Eric Arsenault
Yeah, I'm saying maybe you only need the contracts pages... the browsing of trades can just be in a top menu dropdown
07:18
kind of like on other exchanges (binance or whatever), where you just pick your pair, and most the action is on a page with charts, etc
Z
07:18
Zack
so every time you look at a new contract, you need to re-load your private key?
or do we want to make the private key available to any website they visit with the same browser?
07:19
binance holds your money for you.
EA
07:19
Eric Arsenault
yeah I know
07:19
"so every time you look at a new contract, you need to re-load your private key?" > that is not ideal
Z
07:20
Zack
yeah, exactly
07:20
that is why we want the wallet.html page to be different from the contract_explorer.html page
EA
07:20
Eric Arsenault
Do you need to load your private key on the contract explorer? I assume not?
Z
07:20
Zack
no
07:21
it is just for viewing details about the contract
EA
07:21
Eric Arsenault
So what about just displaying the information on wallet.html page?
07:21
That is basically what I am saying I think.
Z
07:21
Zack
then we couldn't have the shareable url
EA
07:21
Eric Arsenault
So you: 1) select paid from dropdown, 2) bunch of info appears... then you trade
07:22
so you don't need to navigate between pages to get info for each trade... it just feels like a pain to do this
Z
07:22
Zack
you don't need to visit other pages to trade
EA
07:22
Eric Arsenault
sorry, typo
Z
07:22
Zack
if you know what asset you want to buy, then you can just buy it on the wallet.html page
EA
07:23
Eric Arsenault
yeah, but most people will want to look at charts
07:23
It's kind of an essential thing
Z
07:23
Zack
its like how etherscan and uniswap are in different tabs
EA
07:24
Eric Arsenault
right
07:24
yeah they are
Z
07:24
Zack
so you can share an etherscan url to a specific contract
07:24
and look up about that contract
07:24
and the uniswap interface isn't polluted with all that data
EA
07:24
Eric Arsenault
yeah... that's true
07:25
sounds like a plan :)
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
28 November 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
08:53
Zack
I crashed the explorer for contracts.
I am going to rebuild the blocks in the full node on that computer with different configuration settings. only one megabyte per page instead of five.
08:54
its hard to imagine how I filled up an entire gigabyte of ram
08:55
I guess when you unpack the 5 megabyte compressed page, it gets a lot bigger
Z
09:21
Zack
looks like the fix worked.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
29 November 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
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30 November 2020
Chris | WhiteBIT invited Chris | WhiteBIT
1 December 2020
EA
02:15
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
maybe on the pages for the contract, you can have the same dropdown as on the wallet page so you can just browse all the contracts
Z
02:18
Zack
but every time you click a contract, it is opening a different url.
I feel like it makes more sense to browse them on the wallet.html page, and click for more details from there
EA
03:56
Eric Arsenault
If we look at Uniswap in comparison, you have you main trading interface, then you can go to "charts" which show information on different trading pairs: https://info.uniswap.org/pair/0xbb2b8038a1640196fbe3e38816f3e67cba72d940
03:57
from there, you can just go to other trading pairs
03:57
just an idea
Z
03:59
Zack
this is clearly a different url
Z
04:43
Zack
In reply to this message
having url variables to auto-load a trade when you open the swap page makes sense.
04:46
I set up the swap tab in wallet.html to link to the contract explorer when you look up the price of a trade. So you can look up the details of the contract.
05:37
Possible for amoveo?
Z
05:45
Zack
Isn't that the same thing as paying people to attack smart contracts?
05:45
haha
05:45
yeah, lets do it
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
08:47
Zack
There is a price discussion channel on discord
08:48
Trading us mostly on qtrade.io
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
17:24
Zack
I want to make some futarchy markets to measure the impact of coronavirus policy.
But it seems like any death statistics are delayed 2 years.

Is there something that we can measure more quickly?
17:30
maybe the price of canadian dollars, measured in us dollars, and the canadian federal coronavirus policy?
17:31
but that is probably too influenced by how much they inflate the canadian dollar to pay for coronavirus stuff.
17:36
Maybe instead of looking at the total number of deaths, we should be looking at the median or average age of the deaths that are recorded?
J
17:39
Josh
Have you looked at euromomo excess deaths? https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps
Z
17:43
Zack
In reply to this message
This looks like what we want. Thanks for sharing.
17:45
Next we need to identify some coronavirus policy that has around 50-50 odds of being one way or the other in the next month or two.
If it nearer to 50-50, then the futarchy market will be more liquid and accurate.
17:46
And we want it to be a policy in some European country, since it looks like Europe has the fastest death statistics.
17:46
Maybe a travel ban, or restaurant closures or a 2 week isolation policy after travel.
17:49
Or a curfew policy
J
17:52
Josh
In reply to this message
Sure thing.
Z
18:47
Zack
https://www.berlin.de/corona/en/measures/#headline_1_24
Berlin temporarily outlawed prostitution.
That could be an entertaining futarchy thing to measure, right?
18:48
or maybe alcohol sales after 11 pm
18:49
I guess this one would be most controversial:
Visitors received during quarantine: 500 to 5,000 euros (300 to 1,000 euros for the person visiting)
18:49
no visitors for christmas
B
18:58
Ben
corona numbers from the RKI (leading institue in Germany)
Z
19:03
Zack
I feel like it is not useful to look at coroanavirus deaths specifically, because that would ignore the deaths caused by the quarantine/lockdown policies, and also because there doesn't seem to be a consistent definition of what a coronavirus death means. Some places seem to only consider it a coronavirus death if coronavirus was the principle factor that caused the death. Other places call it a coronavirus death if there was a positive coronavirus test, even if they are asymptomatic. Other places call it a coronavirus death based on symptoms, even if no test was done.
19:04
so the official number of coronavirus deaths seems more correlated with the politics of the region that with the impact of coronavirus.
19:05
Futarchy saved Christmas. that would be a feel-good story. A Christmas miracle.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
shmrki invited shmrki
x
20:04
x
a long running betting market for veo ,btc ,eth price is more useful , and can be clearly defined
20:09
That's is the best use case for 2021, predicting prices of key cryptocurrencies, so will a prediction market really make better predictions? everyone will be able to see..
Rom invited Rom
R
20:12
Rom
In reply to this message
I can already predict the price of amoveo => 0$
mx
20:31
mr x
Futarchies should be formulated as effects on POW of particular chain avoiding all the headaches of formulating/measuring the outcome. Blockchains are wrappers for communities.
20:33
So particular chain should concern itself with questions about that particular community.
Z
20:36
Zack
Come on guys, where is your christmas spirit?
We need to save chistmas!
mx
20:39
mr x
Insurance for santa not showing up for kids?
Z
23:45
Zack
We need to show that the grinches are wrong. Christmas isnt dangerous. It is a time of joy.
2 December 2020
M⛏
00:02
Moe ⛏
In reply to this message
I will buy all at $1
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
A
01:49
AI 🏅
In reply to this message
🤙 0,50 c
s
01:54
sanket
In reply to this message
Start a meme around it
Z
02:16
Zack
The last 2 years on new years day, someone market-bought an excessive amount of veo.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
x
03:29
x
wow
03:29
i use better gram before
03:30
i just found that it only show my own messages in some groups
x
03:54
x
I just learned that marketcap is meaningless
03:55
so
03:55
it seems
03:55
it's much much cheaper to attack PoS
03:55
Bribe = (0.9 / (2 * 100)) = (0.45% of the market cap)
03:57
marketcap =price * supply (this marketcap value is useless), so it cost much less bribe, right?
Z
03:59
Zack
based on my analysis, it seems like it costs very little to pay the bribes to attack PoS.
But this is a very controversial topic. Most people disagree with me.
x
04:00
x
i mean (marketcap = price * supply) this is not real marketcap
04:01
it's much easier to dump the price of a coin
Z
04:02
Zack
oh, you mean how if someone suddenly sells 2% of the coins, this can cause the price to drop 50% or more
x
04:02
x
yes, i just heard the term float
04:02
not clear about the meaning
04:02
but the real markcap is much lower, so im assuming the attacking cost can be significatly lower
04:03
In reply to this message
exactly, marketcap easily droped
Z
04:06
Zack
part of the reason that the price is so easy to move in the short term is because people don't want to leave all their coins on a centralized exchange.
They want to hold their coins in a secure wallet.

If you manipulate the price of a PoS coin on an exchange temporarily, the PoS-validators can probably tell that it is only a short-term manipulation. And they will personally value the coins at a higher price than what the market says in that moment.
x
04:13
x
even if they have all the coins on exchange, and staking on an exchange,
04:14
the marketcap which equals supply * price
04:14
is still not real
04:14
you can just keep dumping the orderbook
04:15
more easily
04:17
the cost is much lower than circulating supply * price
04:19
not sure whether i'm correct
04:19
but if that's the case
04:19
PoS blockchains seems so much weaker..
mx
04:25
mr x
So great we have hashrate to measure the size of blockchain to cut through all this bs...
DT Chiume invited DT Chiume
3 December 2020
x
00:45
x
actually every crypto trader need to use prediction market to make trading or investing easier, the result on predition market can be used as indicator for trading/investing. I don't know why it still isn't popular yet..
Z
01:20
Zack
isn't that circular? the price is the result of traders.
Z
02:32
Zack
In reply to this message
I didn't read the law well enough. Christmas wasn't cancelled, they just dont want big groups together
Z
02:51
Zack
France is super dependent on tourism. Maybe it would make more sense to do futarchy for their quarantine policy
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
08:23
Zack
french policy seems really complicated. im not sure what to bet on.
So now im thinking the thing to do is use futarchy to measure what effect the masks have.
That seems to be pretty controversial, and it is applied in many places.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Deleted invited Deleted Account
x
15:34
x
we can't trust the numbers released by the government.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
4 December 2020
DK
15:28
Deve Kliman
hi @zack_amoveo it’s been about a year since there has been unofficial ledger nano s integration for Amoveo. do you have any idea when there will be official ledger nano x integration?
Z
17:46
Zack
What does "official" mean? I dont have an office.
I
18:13
Instinct
In reply to this message
Exantech were working on that. They said ledger never got back to them. I wouldn’t expect it until Amoveo market cap increases a lot
DK
18:30
Deve Kliman
In reply to this message
Well, official with ledger as in I could install it with their ledger live software
5 December 2020
OK
00:01
O K
In reply to this message
Probably this question is better suited for the folks at ledger, as they are responsible for these decisions.
s
00:18
sanket
Is exantech still building anything?
M
21:40
Minieep21
In reply to this message
@denis_voskvitsov ?
Z
22:27
Zack
Im guessing it isnt worth their time to work on amoveo until we get the price higher
s
23:10
sanket
I guess that's true for everyone. Atleast have some incentive to work on it
23:11
do you mind if they work on it?
C
23:26
C
Today I realized VEO is one of the first social currencies. It is Zack's currency. People come and go but Zack is always at the center of it. Backing it's value. Truly remarkable.
6 December 2020
JS
02:07
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Fact check: true
I
02:08
Instinct
Zatoshi
EA
02:21
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
LOL this is amazing
02:22
that's good exposure actually, their have broad distribution
02:23
ah, from 2019 :/
x
02:24
x
yes, i just saw it today,
JS
02:30
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
There is a price discussion channel on discord
I
02:37
Instinct
In reply to this message
Lol 😂
B
06:18
Beer
In reply to this message
lmaooooo
G
23:59
Garbonzo
Is discussing other projects not allowed right now?
Z
23:59
Zack
There is an off-topic channel on discord.
G
23:59
Garbonzo
Ok
7 December 2020
Michael McDonalds invited Michael McDonalds
JS
20:06
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Can you say this in Russian?
OK
23:04
O K
There is a Russian language channel on discord.
mx
23:04
mr x
lol
8 December 2020
JS
03:39
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Спасибо 😂
栾峰 invited 栾峰
栾
04:06
栾峰
3
G
19:41
Gregory
Hey Zack, any meaningful roadmap ahead?
19:42
lately im focusing on getting the interface better for contracts priced in currencies from other contracts.
A
19:43
Adept Proposal
Sweet
G
20:02
Gregory
Can you hire some help? Front end
Z
22:47
Zack
In reply to this message
the uniswap tool is set up to send a front end developer fee to whoever wrote this version of the light node.
Anyone can release a new version of the light node, and if it is popular, they will get paid.
JS
22:54
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
I guess we need some initial push from you to start the momentum because Amoveo is not uniswap
22:55
The uncertainty of the payoff will drive developers away because they don’t know if Amoveo will get used or not unlike uniswap
I
23:21
Instinct
Lol
23:22
In reply to this message
I don’t think they’re bots, just paid shills
mx
23:25
mr x
there is probably discord channel for paid shills
AK
23:25
A K
In reply to this message
That's even sadder
Z
23:35
Zack
Banned.
9 December 2020
EA
00:13
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
are they prioritized?
Z
00:14
Zack
goals that we want to achieve sooner are more or less towards the top. it isn't sorted well. there are things on the list that should be removed, either because they were already done, or because we no longer want to do them.
08:15
Looks like about 20% chance of aliens. according to futarchy.
JS
08:37
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
So 20% chance that the current POW chain including BTC will all be destroyed by aliens quantum computer?
jb
14:35
john blair
I want to get in on this project, been in the group for months or so, maybe a year, kinda clueless about it, but zack seems pretty driven. Is he the only dev? Is there a wallet that supports it
A
14:42
AI 🏅
In reply to this message
На здоровье !😆
15:15
The price resolved at 34.17 usd I think
15:15
So Maybe I go the full way to resolve the oracle...
15:16
But whats the oracle id hmmm?
s
15:21
sanket
In reply to this message
Any way we can list or show it in the way amoveobook showed?
It's much easier as a user to use that interface
jb
15:23
john blair
Hey does the amoveo android app work or is it broken
15:33
easy to use
15:33
that's enough
Z
16:19
Zack
In reply to this message
Ill start the oracle in a few hours.
If you know who has the other side of the contract, that would be faster.
Ill check if it is me.
16:26
In reply to this message
I maintain the light wallet. There is a link in the github.
16:27
In reply to this message
We would need to make the oracle
s
16:43
sanket
In reply to this message
No I mean how it used to be shown in amoveobook.com.

That website is not updated I believe
16:43
But that was a good start
x
16:45
x
Now i'm thinking will it be better if everything can be done in a downloaded wallet?
Z
18:26
Zack
In reply to this message
I don't have any money in that contract.
mx
18:27
mr x
Yea It's flintstone
18:27
But last time was not able to sign/publish the closing tx with him.
Z
18:29
Zack
can you give me the signed tx? I can try to publish and look at the error message.
Also, ill go through the process of making and publishing a swap offer with a couple of my accounts now, to see if it is a bigger problem.
mx
18:32
mr x
["signed",["swap_offer","BJuFSK/rvU1hFktvgKMMmLTYZPJ0C2jQdEWv4FjeymsY0FiCVqw/rzdDydqA1yGqcOBVBYObxFFy1B5J68H+9L8=",136941,137042,"+y24vJQjK+BvO8PLBmsbYzD+t0SyUZQxodTfZRIAEIA=",303460523,"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=",0,908452820,"MvasipqSABDe34ucAOuqJZ6y/yu3WR340O+j/aqUbPU=",2,152050,66],"MEQCIBrTlv+BhBhlD24vvssrpTv9ayaYCjJtkFGv3T6+aFDHAiBB4Z02Lqnb41+fsblG2HSjyjbzKBJRIjlkVRc7qufx4A==",[-6]]
18:32
but expired already
18:32
long time
Z
18:47
Zack
In reply to this message
this is invalid for a few reasons.
first off, only one of you have signed it. Whichever has the pubkey starting with BJuFSK...
Second, it is not a valid tx type.
"swap_offer" is something that belongs inside of a swap_tx. the person who accepts this tx should embed it inside a swap_tx before signing.
third off, this swap_offer is using nonce 66, but account BJuFSK... is currently on nonce 71. it needs to be re-written and re-signed for nonce 71.

You can use the trading section of this page http://159.89.87.58:8080/contracts.html
to make a new swap offer, and publish it to the p2p_derivatives server. Then it will be available for anyone to match your trade.
mx
18:51
mr x
yea was not able to sign it back then
18:52
swap viewer in contracts.html allowed to view it but not accept
18:53
well yea the whole thing is very much expired
18:54
but didn't work back then i think
Z
19:17
Zack
I found some issues with the order book swap tool. im making fixes now. the new version should be available within the next 24 hours or so
mx
19:24
mr x
alright
Z
19:33
Zack
http://159.89.87.58:8080/contracts.html
It seems to be working now
19:34
there are about 130 blocks in a day. so if you set it for like 400+ blocks, that will give mr flinstone 3+ days to accept
19:34
In reply to this message
feel free to ask more questions if anything is confusing
mx
19:53
mr x
How do I exactly get the oracle id/create oracle for the contract?
Z
20:10
Zack
In reply to this message
I think instead of creating the oracle, what you want to do is publish a swap offer to sell your tokens for veo.
then send mr flinstone a message about the swap offer, so he knows to accept.
20:11
this will be a lot faster than waiting for the oracle to close
Z
20:32
Zack
looking at the old version of channels, there are 91 still open with money locked inside.
Since we stopped supporting these channels, I am guessing everyone with money locked inside is unable to access your veo.
All together there are 70.53307808 veo locked in these channels.
20:33
I am thinking of doing a hard update to get rid of the old version of channels, and for each of these 91 channels, we can divide up the veo inside 50-50 between the pairs of people who control them.
20:39
Here is a list of the pairs of pubkeys that control active channels with more than 1 veo locked inside. For each one, I include the balance on each side of the channel:
[-7,\"BFvgK8kwC8yh+ljQV/Nvpx+95h2STjXKpkusykux5jjgTM83+4exLL3VMj8NRyQeZJduT59Xu65lcHnhahEMPcQ=\",\"BF3rw/kC3c5UJ6Lfr/uKxGgDT4mbIHZmf+xffJldnqL0Hf8ilrI6OGdG+TAjJKL3rZPvDuqFUd6tg02CKnRGrr8=\",1.0,0.99999999],[-7,\"BCjdlkTKyFh7BBx4grLUGFJCedmzo4e0XT1KJtbSwq5vCJHrPltHATB+maZ+Pncjnfvt9CsCcI9Rn1vO+fPLIV4=\",\"BKqvlDkdnQBOHGbPFOanf88Le//PPzVRlsq5znP2WEhFy37RKMgyKN+q8R8sRMJMkB6NmPXyx5EWRvqjQkqjsLY=\",3.5,3.5],[-7,\"BJFwMtu8j5VfR6qwuXvZoLaiD+8U0jVvBsDb124RayO3FIrRp+SdwvIhL5+T1IPFaw5TLANGDwqj5whpZ4hWXUI=\",\"BF3rw/kC3c5UJ6Lfr/uKxGgDT4mbIHZmf+xffJldnqL0Hf8ilrI6OGdG+TAjJKL3rZPvDuqFUd6tg02CKnRGrr8=\",0.994,0.99399999],[-7,\"BCjdlkTKyFh7BBx4grLUGFJCedmzo4e0XT1KJtbSwq5vCJHrPltHATB+maZ+Pncjnfvt9CsCcI9Rn1vO+fPLIV4=\",\"BKY9ceTTuMuJSHPPBwIE2QOyT6pSSPs6iYaBhVbXa30eyO5Kaq+H24YEVeyXvfSwFNXZFwtDzZt3z7hWFZC0FRw=\",10.0,10.0],[-7,\"BHVfQWRx7I1xmlWw5KJ7l9ijq4tcobFCub68jsmCGaEQXSr/hi0Vpz8+wa0v8ytcTEUu4wJwTfC+7q6r+CPYS20=\",\"BPDeeo6Ku4ACi3JuhyCHjyx84HeT61aBo47ebzD+olh70BFejwCvQGXw+/QzU9BzbjUCyBrl1d6cvwIsG63bCxM=\",1.0,4.0],[-7,\"BHVfQWRx7I1xmlWw5KJ7l9ijq4tcobFCub68jsmCGaEQXSr/hi0Vpz8+wa0v8ytcTEUu4wJwTfC+7q6r+CPYS20=\",\"BJbr9SpEWwpX4BvJAkp9lXOTsFLrcnVS8/diW1foI8U9llVQ/foDpBiGLIIf2dctVsn/4Gy6Gh7+8iKvprYlLz4=\",0.75,3.0],[-7,\"BDcgVEOFpHfqm65Q7UBP1BJPDSgRc6NxqisvVfKGkewRxaovzXXNk19lEL0NLV/W4flFG9St49/HqC8M88XJ7ts=\",\"BF3rw/kC3c5UJ6Lfr/uKxGgDT4mbIHZmf+xffJldnqL0Hf8ilrI6OGdG+TAjJKL3rZPvDuqFUd6tg02CKnRGrr8=\",1.0,0.99999999],[-7,\"BBzmXObbtE2lNwJqdVS7C41hyUIl/T0AedKMnJ/7LYwoig4q8aEJvguniUTawrH8ZFGDWdqylq3h9asSPGaNdIg=\",\"BI9g2BIgPsooWa+ThsTbh93Oc3YtvI9p+RWbX9duUWFqKVqLqzqtp851N0ukM5ZscpEpTxV3zJVNmBv9was+nWM=\",0.3,3.0],[-7,\"BDhRUHvW3dh1vOHTTzKpdeP9y9Yq9k+EjPPOEuqLkbRbgawHSDguRsyuSqlei8F0xVAZbqswUjlRPwL7zYLYnAw=\",\"BKSYQw/88NOUfwBhyXwVuKymkQxZNxJ0NjqAqJQgXKvflmRJ1K1Q70WAIsUtmxa6C30FdcQKPzeEarNIT4mCUKU=\",0.6984795,0.69847949],[-7,\"BHVfQWRx7I1xmlWw5KJ7l9ijq4tcobFCub68jsmCGaEQXSr/hi0Vpz8+wa0v8ytcTEUu4wJwTfC+7q6r+CPYS20=\",\"BLd2a8vvckvg0wPm8C99X1cSJl6s1m/zkpvzbzVOEkLXNr1eXrcVs61hMbgUgxH1Kjgox5MITDG144r0mdCH0Mo=\",1.125,4.5],[-7,\"BHVfQWRx7I1xmlWw5KJ7l9ijq4tcobFCub68jsmCGaEQXSr/hi0Vpz8+wa0v8ytcTEUu4wJwTfC+7q6r+CPYS20=\",\"BFRoafiD9OwVwLBSe6JLBQmEhK2h28Ns+dO/tWE9krq6rQa+YHYAc7D7Yv+8dXCDnEyP0IkQUxEERY/oiAQpAk0=\",0.375,1.5]
20:40
oh. instead of splitting 50-50, we could undo every channel, and give back to everyone the amount of money they had on their side of the channel
S
20:43
Sy
BFvgK8kwC8yh+ljQV/Nvpx+95h2STjXKpkusykux5jjgTM83+4exLL3VMj8NRyQeZJduT59Xu65lcHnhahEMPcQ=
BF3rw/kC3c5UJ6Lfr/uKxGgDT4mbIHZmf+xffJldnqL0Hf8ilrI6OGdG+TAjJKL3rZPvDuqFUd6tg02CKnRGrr8=
1.0 0.99999999

BCjdlkTKyFh7BBx4grLUGFJCedmzo4e0XT1KJtbSwq5vCJHrPltHATB+maZ+Pncjnfvt9CsCcI9Rn1vO+fPLIV4=
BKqvlDkdnQBOHGbPFOanf88Le//PPzVRlsq5znP2WEhFy37RKMgyKN+q8R8sRMJMkB6NmPXyx5EWRvqjQkqjsLY=
3.5 3.5

BJFwMtu8j5VfR6qwuXvZoLaiD+8U0jVvBsDb124RayO3FIrRp+SdwvIhL5+T1IPFaw5TLANGDwqj5whpZ4hWXUI=
BF3rw/kC3c5UJ6Lfr/uKxGgDT4mbIHZmf+xffJldnqL0Hf8ilrI6OGdG+TAjJKL3rZPvDuqFUd6tg02CKnRGrr8=
0.994 0.99399999

BCjdlkTKyFh7BBx4grLUGFJCedmzo4e0XT1KJtbSwq5vCJHrPltHATB+maZ+Pncjnfvt9CsCcI9Rn1vO+fPLIV4=
BKY9ceTTuMuJSHPPBwIE2QOyT6pSSPs6iYaBhVbXa30eyO5Kaq+H24YEVeyXvfSwFNXZFwtDzZt3z7hWFZC0FRw=
10.0 10.0

BHVfQWRx7I1xmlWw5KJ7l9ijq4tcobFCub68jsmCGaEQXSr/hi0Vpz8+wa0v8ytcTEUu4wJwTfC+7q6r+CPYS20=
BPDeeo6Ku4ACi3JuhyCHjyx84HeT61aBo47ebzD+olh70BFejwCvQGXw+/QzU9BzbjUCyBrl1d6cvwIsG63bCxM=
1.0 4.0

BHVfQWRx7I1xmlWw5KJ7l9ijq4tcobFCub68jsmCGaEQXSr/hi0Vpz8+wa0v8ytcTEUu4wJwTfC+7q6r+CPYS20=
BJbr9SpEWwpX4BvJAkp9lXOTsFLrcnVS8/diW1foI8U9llVQ/foDpBiGLIIf2dctVsn/4Gy6Gh7+8iKvprYlLz4=
0.75 3.0

BDcgVEOFpHfqm65Q7UBP1BJPDSgRc6NxqisvVfKGkewRxaovzXXNk19lEL0NLV/W4flFG9St49/HqC8M88XJ7ts=
BF3rw/kC3c5UJ6Lfr/uKxGgDT4mbIHZmf+xffJldnqL0Hf8ilrI6OGdG+TAjJKL3rZPvDuqFUd6tg02CKnRGrr8=
1.0 0.99999999

BBzmXObbtE2lNwJqdVS7C41hyUIl/T0AedKMnJ/7LYwoig4q8aEJvguniUTawrH8ZFGDWdqylq3h9asSPGaNdIg=
BI9g2BIgPsooWa+ThsTbh93Oc3YtvI9p+RWbX9duUWFqKVqLqzqtp851N0ukM5ZscpEpTxV3zJVNmBv9was+nWM=
0.3 3.0

BDhRUHvW3dh1vOHTTzKpdeP9y9Yq9k+EjPPOEuqLkbRbgawHSDguRsyuSqlei8F0xVAZbqswUjlRPwL7zYLYnAw=
BKSYQw/88NOUfwBhyXwVuKymkQxZNxJ0NjqAqJQgXKvflmRJ1K1Q70WAIsUtmxa6C30FdcQKPzeEarNIT4mCUKU=
0.6984795 0.69847949

BHVfQWRx7I1xmlWw5KJ7l9ijq4tcobFCub68jsmCGaEQXSr/hi0Vpz8+wa0v8ytcTEUu4wJwTfC+7q6r+CPYS20=
BLd2a8vvckvg0wPm8C99X1cSJl6s1m/zkpvzbzVOEkLXNr1eXrcVs61hMbgUgxH1Kjgox5MITDG144r0mdCH0Mo=
1.125 4.5

BHVfQWRx7I1xmlWw5KJ7l9ijq4tcobFCub68jsmCGaEQXSr/hi0Vpz8+wa0v8ytcTEUu4wJwTfC+7q6r+CPYS20=
BFRoafiD9OwVwLBSe6JLBQmEhK2h28Ns+dO/tWE9krq6rQa+YHYAc7D7Yv+8dXCDnEyP0IkQUxEERY/oiAQpAk0=
0.375 1.5
20:43
a bit more readable than the erlang dump
Z
20:43
Zack
thanks Sy
mx
21:05
mr x
Alright
21:05
["signed",["swap_offer","BOnCHOqw/vE9qHuJi5iPJUg50ApD7YMO/3L3HR6pdecojRywvFm76W3wrUfAHwzCCGqxNR9MgZBjZ54jKnqCY9s=",142908,143309,"aaR/6tytNnoc76UtTBycqSLUyh6MV1SKx9uT0dRapAM=",908452820,"MvasipqSABDe34ucAOuqJZ6y/yu3WR340O+j/aqUbPU=",2,303460523,"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=",0,152050,34],"MEYCIQDfnggM2X+Vq9FrvrB/ByF0JZ01MXYoys4HZYxLoSQFEAIhAMEOCL0OZY/+kzdoEPJpdixObhjdYqjVMQF46rsjCuAD",[-6]]
21:05
Maybe roughly correct
Z
21:07
Zack
this swap offer is made by a different account from last time. looks like you are selling around 9 shares of that contract for 3.03 veo
mx
21:07
mr x
Yes last time flinstone made offer
Z
21:08
Zack
I can see the trade on the trade explorer. looks like it will work
mx
21:08
mr x
yeahh
mx
22:56
mr x
Alright It worked
Z
23:01
Zack
Great
10 December 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
G
14:26
Garbonzo
In reply to this message
Hi Sunny 😎 Ask any questions you have about the project. It’s 100% legit and one of the most underrated projects in the space. If you decide to cover it on your channel it could give the project the much needed spotlight it deserves.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
G
18:28
Garbonzo
Is amoveo a competitor to Ethereum or are its smart contracts uniquely suited for derivatives?
Z
18:30
Zack
ethereum is a big community, many people see it in different ways.
My perspective is that ethereum is a general purpose computer on a blockchain, and you can pay to use memory or computational capacity of that computer.

Amoveo is a special purpose blockchain optimized just for derivatives.
18:31
so for example, ethereum works pretty well for creating new currencies and doing icos, but amoveo would be a bad platform for that.
18:32
Amoveo is a turing complete smart contract platform, so technically it is possible to do anything that ethereum could do.
But it is highly ill-advised to use Amoveo for anything besides derivatives.
G
18:34
Garbonzo
In reply to this message
It seems like the docs are arguing that derivatives can accomplish what sub-currencies already do. And that funding can be accomplished through derivatives in other ways than ICOs.
Z
18:35
Zack
An example of how we are specialized. The amoveo oracle is connected to the Nakamoto consensus mechanism in a way that is not possible in ethereum.
Ethereum's smart contracts are sandboxed so that no one can make a contract that could possibly harm the underlying consensus.
Since Amoveo's oracle doesn't have this limitation, it allows us to use a design that is much cheaper and more secure.
18:36
In reply to this message
yeah, I think ICOs are a bad idea.
For example, the person running an ICO can take out loans to anonymously buy into their own ICO, and use the profit from the ICO to pay back the loan.
They are inherently insecure.

Derivatives can be used to securely raise funding for public goods, in a strategy called "dominant assurance contracts".
18:38
Ethereum is what happens when computer scientists want to support finance as one of the applications on their blockchain.
Amoveo is what happens when finance wants to be secured by a blockchain.
G
18:39
Garbonzo
I’m wondering if there is a need for a decentralized computer like Ethereum if we can align incentivizes through derivatives so that centralized computing is trust-free?
Z
18:42
Zack
if you want centralized computing, you can buy a computer or rent a server.
im not really sure what trust-free computing means in this context
G
18:42
Garbonzo
Trying to quote from the docs, let me copy
Z
18:43
Zack
markets of derivatives are great for knowing the prices of things, and the probability of events occurring in the future, and for hedging risks.
18:44
the optimal solution for raising funds for a public good is actually a kind of risk-hedging contract.
People who would benefit from the creation of the public good are hedging their risk that the good wont get created.
G
18:45
Garbonzo
“There is no value in being able to make smart contracts if you can't securely determine the market price for those contracts. All the rest of the security doesn't matter if they can get away charging you above the market rate. A market provides liquidity, so you can trade financial risk with other users at the current market price. Markets on Amoveo are centralized and trust-free. Each market exists on a centralized server. The market is secure because the rules are enforced by channel smart contracts.”
Z
18:46
Zack
oh yeah, that was from when we were building markets inside of state channels. it works a little differently now
G
18:46
Garbonzo
Is this talking about all smart contracts or derivative smart contracts?
Z
18:46
Zack
now we have a combination of on-chain constant-product markets, as well as off-chain centralized and trustless order books of limit orders.
18:47
can you provide a link to that document? I should probably update it
18:47
In reply to this message
it is talking about markets of derivatives enforced by state channels. but our markets work differently now.
G
18:48
Garbonzo
In reply to this message
Is there any documentation on this? I’d like to understand what the reasons are for causing more to go on-chain and why the extra expense is worth it.
Z
18:50
Zack
In reply to this message
the new version of smart contracts are a kind of generalization of state channels and on-chain contracts.
The smart contract code actually stays off-chain unless we need it to enforce the outcome of the contract.
And it is more efficient than state channels, because with state channels you needed to create a different channel for each user who was involved.
Now we just make the one smart contract and everyone can use it.
G
18:52
Garbonzo
In reply to this message
Oh, this is interesting. 😁
18:54
Here are a bunch of tests showing how to do different things with the new kind of smart contracts https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/amoveo_core/src/consensus/txs/test_txs.erl#L10
18:58
state channels are a 2-way relationship where a smart contract eventually decides how to divide up the money between the 2 participants.

the new amoveo smart contracts are similar to a state channel, but the 2 sides of the relationship are defined by currencies. So you can spend your side of the state channel to someone else without needing permission from anyone.
You can build a new smart contract, collateralized with your shares in an existing smart contract, without anyone's permission.
Z
19:02
Zack
since the smart contract code is off-chain, it can be selectively revealed to certain people. giving similar privacy as state channels provide.
19:02
In reply to this message
yes.
19:02
it explains why derivatives are the only kind of smart contract that can be scalable.
G
19:02
Garbonzo
So they are still immutable.
Z
19:04
Zack
in a sense they are immutable.
when a smart contract resolves, instead of paying out the source currency, it can potentially pay out as subcurrencies from a different smart contract, as long as those subcurrencies sum up to the same exposure as the source currency of the first contract.

Each of the individual smart contracts is immutable, but from a certain perspective you can think of it as a single smart contract that mutated into the second.
19:07
you can build un-scalable things with amoveo. it is turing complete, so anything is possible.
But it is set up to encourage scalable design, to give as much power as possible without sacrificing scalability.
G
19:07
Garbonzo
In reply to this message
That’s crazy, I’ve never heard of something like this before, but it makes so much sense. 🙂
19:08
In reply to this message
This is where I’m confused. If derivatives are the only kind of scalable smart contract, what’s the use of other kinds of smart contracts if they can’t scale? Niche applications?
Z
19:09
Zack
An example of a useful smart contract that is not a derivative would be a domain name registration system.
Z
19:27
Zack
In reply to this message
this is such a bad document. im erasing practically everything.
19:39
ok, I rewrote it.
G
20:44
Garbonzo
In reply to this message
Awesome!
20:44
Maybe not all blockchain host a cryptocurrency though.
G
21:00
Garbonzo
Damn it’s so awesome to have a well written white paper, it really feels like amoveo is taking it to the next level!
G
22:15
Garbonzo
In reply to this message
Does a decentralized domain name registry need to be a smart contract? Could derivatives handle the rent/auction system? The main thing is writing the protocol rules everyone follows, like IPFS, no?
Z
22:51
Zack
In reply to this message
The domain name system would need to have some sort of shared state to match domain names to ip addresses.
22:59
If it is centrally controlled state, then they can use a centrally controlled auction or rent system.

Im not sure what you could mean by derivatives to pay rent or auction off domains.
Derivatives are a kind of bet. You can bet on the prices of things, or the weather, or the outcome of a sporting event or election.
You can bet on what will be the price paid in an upcoming auction.
You can bet on whether a domain will end up being claimed in a domain name system.
11 December 2020
J
05:58
Josh
In reply to this message
Very good rewrite.
Maks Crugov invited Maks Crugov
zack invited zack
z
14:25
zack
hi! I was wondering what amoveo provides to a bettor that betfair couldn't?
Z
14:56
Zack
Betfair is centralized. They can steal your money, or make the oracle resolve wrong.
Betfair only lets you participate as a gambler. In amoveo you can also be a liquidity provider and profit from other people betting. Amoveo lets anyone create new markets to bet on, without needing permission. Betfair only lets you bet on markets that they provide.
Z
16:57
Zack
betfair needs to comply with laws, which limits their services. They need to pay taxes, which makes it more expensive to use.
KL
18:39
Karlis L
To be fair, you can provide liquidity on betfair
z
23:23
zack
In reply to this message
First off, let me say I think the project is cool and I really like the vision!! I am not trying to bring anyone down, I am just giving you my perspective as a bettor.

Betfair stealing your money is as likely to most people as a bank stealing your money. I think 99.9% of people would be more afraid their money would be lost with something new and decentralized than stolen by a publicly traded tech company.

I know this is a trendy thing to cite for decentralize PMs but NOBODY is afraid Betfair grades something wrong. I would rather 1 regulated group grades everything (faster & easier & I can hold someone accountable) than some weird voting mechanism that I don't understand

There is nothing preventing Betfair from creating a feature to allow you to request/create any market you want. Sky Sports in fact allows you to request any bet (https://m.skybet.com/lp/request-a-bet). Sure, not on the scale of dPM but I actually don't think a platform needs to be decentralized to allow U to create any bet.

You can provide liquidity on Betfair, you are just defining it differently. My liquidity on Betfair is more customizable. I can say I want 10K -105, 20K -115, and 30k -140... and on the other side id take up to 10k -107. On Ameveo you can help fund a AMM. But I think it's a mischaracterization to say you can't provide liquidity on Betfair.

**Also, some advice on AMM route. Except on incredibly liquid markets any AMM that moves only when someone bets is going to be absolutely picked apart and destroyed if sharp bettors find the platform. Funding an AMM for the next president is wayyyy different then funding an AMM on the odds for Over 2 inches of rain in Houston, Texas January 14th. If you want breadth of markets (which i think you do) funding AMM will become progressively more -EV.
23:24
In reply to this message
Citing no taxes should probably be don't ask don't tell. Here U are basically saying the benefit of our platform is you can break your law more easily. You could say that about anything that is not regulated. It will be cheaper and have less restrictions.
OK
23:29
O K
In reply to this message
Banks steal people's money every day, are you kidding? Not just by account seizures. The theft is built into the system these days. Before the current system bank runs were a response to bank theft.
x
23:31
x
I'm not sure what amove can do in the future. But a decentralized platform will reduce the cost significantly i think. e.g. if you are a trader , a lot of brokers/platforms are bucketshops. I don't know much about betting platforms, but i think it will be similar.
23:32
1 prevent stealing (probably most important) 2 reducing cost
23:36
centralized platforms has many sneaky ways to steal, and you aren't even aware
MF
23:36
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
more like betting platforms have fixed and variable expenses that get passed onto the user
23:37
which can make it more expensive than a blockchain
23:39
one other comment is that liquidity on amoveo is similarly customizable and is not restricted to AMM. i.e you can create bet offers for 10k at -110 etc
x
23:40
x
The biggest problem with all centralized trading or betting platforms, how do we tell they are not working against us secretly? it's easy for them to do , and we can not see.
z
23:40
zack
In reply to this message
^ exactly🌟 ... they are
23:40
In reply to this message
interesting, didn't know this ty
23:41
In reply to this message
ha i just used banks as a visceral example, and I don't disagree with the sentiment. but we live in a world where 99% of people still operate under the paradigm that a bank is the safest place to store their money
12 December 2020
JS
00:15
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Are you the #4 clone of Zack? Where are the Zack 1,2,3?
z
00:43
zack
on homepage:

Amoveo is different than Ethereum. Amoveo has turning-complete contracts that are built on top of the Amoveo channel system and programmed in the Chalang special-state language. Smart-contracts built on Amoveo execute seamlessly and effectively
00:43
In reply to this message
i ate them
Z
00:58
Zack
In reply to this message
we have a homepage now?
I
00:58
Instinct
In reply to this message
It’s on Amoveo.io
Z
00:58
Zack
if betfair lets you make markets, then make a market for onion futures
00:59
In reply to this message
maybe @denis_voskvitsov will fix it then
"turning-complete" should be "Turing-complete"
I
00:59
Instinct
Alan turning >>
s
01:32
sanket
Why is this not used enough ? https://forum.amoveo.io/

Seems pretty good
x
02:39
x
yes forum is probably better than telegram
Z
04:18
Zack
Telegram can do notifications to my phone. Also, im the moderator here.
AK
04:23
A K
TG is not indexed by Google
04:23
Zero discoverability
04:24
Zero knowledge building (aside from github)
04:24
My 2c
I
04:39
Instinct
In reply to this message
It’s linked from Amoveo.io, coingecko, cmc etc.
AK
04:39
A K
Via google
04:40
Ever tried to search smth in tg?
04:40
Like, a discussion from 2 years ago? There's a reason ppl use forums and reddit
Z
05:03
Zack
I save the useful stuff.
There are benefits to being forgotten as well.
Z
05:26
Zack
Anything worth saving is worth putting into the docs, right?
06:20
Is PoW broken? @zack_amoveo
Z
06:25
Zack
quantum computers can compute some weird stuff really well. Better than any other computer is able to.

But the weird stuff that quantum computers calculate, it isn't useful for anything.

It is kind of like how if I put an oddly-shaped rock in a box, and connect a vibrator and some sensors, I can get some complicated data out. And the amount of computers you would need to exactly reproduce that data is crazy huge.
Does that mean my rock is a super-computer that can break PoW?
JS
07:40
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
What if aliens 👽 have a programmable quantum computer?
07:41
Don’t we have more than 10% chance that they will reveal themselves soon?
Z
08:15
Zack
In reply to this message
I was studying physics at ucsb when they had the quantum computer with the largest number of qubits. I had a class with john martinis, who runs the lab that built that quantum computer.

I feel certain that there will never be a quantum computer that can weaken any crypto system at all.

Consider bubble computers.
If you have a tub of liquid bubble soap, and you dip a collection of sticks into that soap, bubble surfaces form between the sticks.
You can use math to show that there is some minimum energy configuration of bubble surfaces. And for small collections of sticks, the bubbles really do hit the minimum.
It is a one-operation computer that is solving a problem which is supposed to take a number of steps that is exponential in the number of sticks.

But, if you increase the number of sticks too much, it stops working. The bubbles start taking longer amounts of time to settle in the minimum. They start getting caught in local minimums instead of the global minimum.

Quantum computers have as much hope to weaken crypto systems as bubble computers do.

Quantum computers are a great way for physicists to get grant money to make jobs and build expensive labs.
Quantum computers are a great way for universities to show off how advanced their research is.

Quantum computers wont ever have a practical application that we couldn't have achieved for lower cost by playing with bubble soap.
Too bad bubble soap isn't prestigious.
OK
09:56
O K
In reply to this message
😂
09:56
Too bad indeed.
bhglass invited bhglass
JS
22:59
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Too bad, I was kind of looking forward to meeting aliens
13 December 2020
MC
01:22
Mr Crypto
In reply to this message
haha!
A
16:21
AI 🏅
In reply to this message
Fake
14 December 2020
CD
07:30
Crypt Dweller
Zack what is your definition of Turing Completeness?
07:31
Also, just curious, you don't have to answer but I am wondering why did you drop out of your physics program?
Z
07:32
Zack
In reply to this message
Computationally equivalent to a turing machine.
Like how it is described in the church turing equivalence paper.
Z
07:48
Zack
In reply to this message
I read the truthcoin website.

I finished all the math and physics courses i wanted to take, all that was left were general education courses that i wasn't interested in.
I felt like having a diploma wouldn't benefit me.
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15 December 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
borisko_ invited borisko_
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
04:52
Zack
This futarchy market shows the expected number of deaths in switzerland, in the case where they require masks in public transport.
http://159.89.87.58:8080/contract_explorer.html?cid=/RXSnfzNwbWPIfVKrfaHvW+rxc+4FucrL52+X9DlAgM=

This one shows the # of deaths if they don't require masks.
http://159.89.87.58:8080/contract_explorer.html?cid=/U9MsXJU0d/3AaTj6EFpAFHBsz/igf9LD0+0S4NLfrI=

Currently both markets show that the same number of deaths will occur.
So that means the masks have zero impact on the number of deaths.
Z
05:29
Zack
oh, the futarchy markets still have bugs. don't use them yet.
mx
05:32
mr x
yea lookup price gives some weird stuff
Z
05:37
Zack
In reply to this message
that too.
I think that has to do with my vector basis being over-defined.
I try to find every possible way of converting the one currency into the other, without leaving your holding any leftover money in other currency types.
Then I use a gradient descent on all those different ways of converting.

The problem is that if I have too many ways of converting, they sort of short-circuit each other, and cause bad priced ways of converting to look like good priced ways.

I think I need to take the list of ways to convert your currency, and calculate a minimal spanning vector basis. then use that in the gradient descent algorithm.

I was looking through my abstract algebra book today, they give tips on how to calculate a minimal spanning vector basis.

but I think maybe it might also help to combine the different paths to create an orthogonal vector basis, so we can minimize how much changing the weight of one path influences the prices of the other paths, and completely get rid of this short-circuiting issue.
05:39
the reason that this issue is showing up now is because the futarchy contracts are collateralized in a different contract. So the swap tool is calculating longer conversion paths through 2 contracts, instead of just inside 1 contract.
There are a lot more ways to make paths through 2 markets, so the vector basis ends up way more over-defined.
mx
05:43
mr x
Do some simple greedy shit?
05:44
(expert advice)
Z
05:44
Zack
like, you think we should optimize for how much you can purchase for what you are spending, and not worry about whether we end up holding other kinds of currency in the process?
mx
05:46
mr x
yeah dont be left with other currencies
B
05:46
Beer
when
Z
05:50
Zack
we know that the trade with the best possible price wont leave you holding any other currencies besides what you want to buy.
So I feel like it is computationally simpler to only consider combinations of trades that each leave you not holding any currencies besides what you want.

Keep in mind that it isn't possible to hold negative amounts of any currency.
mx
06:00
mr x
Alright. So how futarchy works now (when it works): First buy both sides of masks mandatory. Now you have no exposure. Then use masks mandatory true tokens to buy zscore down tokens to have exposure only in case masks mandatory.
Z
06:03
Zack
its more like,
the market is giving us estimates for the number of deaths in both cases, with and without masks.
If you think either estimate is wrong, then you should buy the underpriced shares in that market.

the current AMM swap tool seems to work better if you spend a little more.

if you are really struggling with the AMM swap tool, maybe try making a trade offer in the order book, and letting someone else deal with the details.
06:04
http://159.89.87.58:8080/contracts.html the order book tool is on this page
06:05
eventually my plan is to integrate the order book and AMM tools together.
So when you make a trade in the AMM, it might automatically be matching trades from the order book.
And if you don't like the price offered by the AMM, it gives you a button to publish your trade in the order book instead.
mx
06:06
mr x
I mean: If you only buy one branch in the futarchy tree you are also taking a stance whether or not masks will get approved.
Z
06:08
Zack
oh yeah, I see what you mean.
Maybe we want a different mode to automatically hedge that risk
mx
06:09
mr x
Yeah. User would just say that "doing this would have this impact" or something.
Z
06:16
Zack
maybe instead of making the 3 markets separately, we want a futarchy tab, that lets you simultaneously create all 3 markets. and a futarchy betting tab with a different interface from the uniswap tab, that lets you make hedged bets on the impact of a law change, without betting on whether the law will change.
06:17
waiting around for the first market to get created before making the next 2 is bad UX
06:19
theoretically someone could front-run your txs. so you create the base market, and they prevent you from depositing liquidity into one of the next 2 markets, and you end up holding different risk than you had intended.

Not creating all 3 markets atomically might be a security risk.
mx
07:14
mr x
Yeah. And continuing with that a governance tab with amoveo asking question about it's future hash rate... :P
J
07:30
JOHNwick3's dog
In reply to this message
Transactions is spelled wrong
07:30
Under account
07:31
:)
07:32
Otherwise looks good.
Z
07:32
Zack
In reply to this message
thanks
Z
08:35
Zack
im thinking about the hard update to get the money out of the channels.
08:36
I think the right way to do this is to hard-code the minimal data of who to give money to into a file. because I don't want to include a ton of merkle proofs to make this hard update work, and I also don't want to mess up the ability of full nodes to sync blocks in reverse order.
08:36
it looks like a list of accounts and how much they should get paid can get down to 4k bytes.
Z
08:51
Zack
oh, I guess I need to include all the merkle proofs of all the accounts that get paid.
08:54
that makes it tough, because if anyone spends money before the hard update activates, then hard-coded merkle proofs would be invalid.
08:56
so maybe I need to build the hard update the bad way, that can't sync backwards. and after the hard update activates, I can build the proofs then, and hard code them to a file.
Then I can fix the hard update to look at that file instead of the database, which potentially doesn't contain them.
08:57
I am pretty sure Sy's mining pool is including all the account data, so this should work.
栾
09:42
栾峰
0
16 December 2020
Gatis Eglitis invited HΞRΞ I APΞ
C
10:58
Callum Wright
In reply to this message
cheers Zack, can you tweet this?
17 December 2020
JS
00:54
Jon Snow
A good white paper can only get us this far
00:54
Need users
s
00:59
sanket
True.
00:59
Any plans for helping onboard more users? @zack_amoveo

What are your thoughts?
z
01:06
zack
In reply to this message
it sounds like you are trying to build a silk road for betting ?

i don't see how futarchy fits in right now, sure that's where PMs in general are going... but i doubt the gamblers i know want to tie up funds for years to predict futarchy things
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Fahim Ryhan invited Fahim Ryhan
Z
19:50
Zack
There is a price discussion channel in discord.
See the amoveo github for info about exchanges.
s
23:37
sanket
I remember there was a discussion of having a wrapper veo on Ethereum.

Is it possible to have it?
Wouldn't that be easier to get liquidity on the mainnet?
Z
23:39
Zack
I think our focus for now is making it easier to use
23:39
if we bring in a bunch of users, and they can't figure out how to use it, it doesn't accomplish much
I
23:54
Instinct
In reply to this message
👍
18 December 2020
s
02:32
sanket
Yeah but isn't it a chicken egg problem?
Without many people using it how can it be made easy?
Z
02:40
Zack
We start with a few tech inthusiasts. The kind of people who are willing to put in more effort to be first to try it out. They are the seed, and it grows from there.
s
03:06
sanket
Haven't we even tried that.
I myself tried to do multiple trades with you in the last 2 years, and had so many questions on how to execute it
Z
03:08
Zack
Testing things out with you was helpful.
We keep learning more and making changes to make it easier to use.
s
03:09
sanket
Yeah. What I mean to say is, while making it easier, the barrier entry should be minimal.
Uniswap has shown how non-custodial Dex ux can be useful and easy to use.
My 2 cents.
Z
20:52
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master/other_blockchains/the_defence_of_pow.md I analyzed some potential attacks against PoW here.
Deleted invited Deleted Account
19 December 2020
Rom invited Rom
Z
06:34
Zack
This is the announcement for hard update #44.
This update is to disable the old kinds of channels, and get rid of the merkle tree for them.
It takes the money out of the old version of channels, and distributes it to the correct owners.
The new version of channels is much more powerful and versatile. Dropping support for the old channels reduces the amount of code that could potentially have bugs in it. This update makes us more secure without losing any features.
This update activates on block 146220, around new years day.

here is the doc related to updating https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-docs/blob/master//getting-started/updating.md
It is the same process as always.
06:43
I updated the contract explorer to say the range of possible values, and to display the estimated result based on the current price.
ŽM
06:47
Živojin Mirić
Do I keep my moni after update?
Z
06:47
Zack
If you had veo trapped in a channel, that veo will get sent to your account based on the original ratio that the channel had been created with.
06:48
For example, if you and i created a channel that is still open, and you had initially deposited 1 veo into it, and i had deposited 2 veo, then in 2 weeks when this activates, the channel will be gone. You will have 1 more veo in your account. I will have 2 more veo in my account.
ŽM
06:50
Živojin Mirić
Ok
20 December 2020
MP
03:28
Mian Parvaiz
Where can i buy veo
Z
03:37
Zack
Qtrade.io
See the pinned link to github for more info.
MP
03:38
Mian Parvaiz
Thanks
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21 December 2020
JS
10:33
Jon Snow
When Mars?
N
10:39
NM$L
Never
Z
19:11
Zack
People have been focusing on futarchy as an alternative that will replace government.
But maybe it is more accurate to think of it as a replacement for science.
Z
19:48
Zack
This contract was expired for a while.
The stablecoin that expired on 10-29-2020
I made a swap offer to sell my shares in it http://159.89.87.58:8080/contract_explorer.html?cid=PX/VkaUaTJfHk7VWm0jordTlJ1MTZQJ2jczoyrXf5LY=

Here is the page where you can view and accept my offer http://159.89.87.58:8080/contracts.html
Z
20:06
Zack
I made an oracle to close this contract without assistance f42a/1Q9+y/F9IY6xyjA1ER+38K7tBPPA9KMsrfDnHY=
So I will be able to get my money out in about a week, even if no one accepts my swap offer.
Z
22:15
Zack
There is a price discussion channel on discord
x
22:40
x
how do i make profit if im antimas
22:40
k
22 December 2020
mx
03:11
mr x
Whats the problem with futarchy as government?
Z
03:58
Zack
if we take "government" to mean a system by which groups of people can cooperate.
Then it has 3 parts.
1) deciding what to cooperate on.
2) giving legitimacy to that decision, so that enfocement is affordable.
3) enforcing the decision.

Today (1) is mostly lobbyists from big corporations.
(2) is a combination of voting, listening to experts, and listening to religious leaders.
(3) is clearly out of the scope of what futarchy could achieve.

Futarchy seeks to replace (1) with allowing anyone to make new futarchy markets.
and it seeks to replace (2) with people betting in those markets.
03:59
part of (2) is replacing voting.
part of (2) is replacing experts and scientists.
part of (2) is replacing religions.
mx
04:18
mr x
3) with pure blockchain decisions just make enforcement a consensus rule
Z
04:20
Zack
Yeah. (3) is doable if we are just talking about decisions inside the blockchain.

But it would be nice if we could use futarchy to deal with global pandemics, for example.
mx
04:20
mr x
yeah
04:21
if there was blockchain for community impacted by global pandemic...
Z
04:21
Zack
Unless your immunity is a part of consensus state space, that doesnt seem possible.
mx
04:23
mr x
if i hodl tokens of that chain it kinda is or something xD
04:25
with pure blockchain futarchy you wouldn't care what is true (remove need for oracles)
04:25
only what makes it strong
04:29
and the decisions wouldnt be "make masks mandatory" but print money for this address that represents some mask manufacturer...
04:29
or something like that
G
04:30
Gregory
Zack any plans to do something else ?
b
04:32
borisko_
Hi, can I buy veo from uniswap? What listing to use? I can't see this token on coingecko
Z
04:32
Zack
check out the github for more info. qtrade.io is the popular exchange
04:33
In reply to this message
there is a todo list in the docs
G
04:33
Gregory
No i mean besides amoveo
Z
04:34
Zack
I only talk about amoveo tech and development here. there is an off-topic channel on discord.
b
05:02
borisko_
In reply to this message
How is this exchange safe? Is this most famous for veo?
OK
05:07
O K
I use it.
Z
05:07
Zack
No centralized exchange is safe.
b
05:31
borisko_
So most people buy veo on qtrade.io?
G
05:32
Gregory
most people sell veo ;)
05:32
In reply to this message
no world is safe. we all gonna die ;)
JS
08:14
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
They are famous for listing small PoW coins
x
11:16
x
In reply to this message
what about DEX, shoudl amove have a Dex of its own
Z
17:16
Zack
In reply to this message
We have off chain order books, and on-chain amm.
That is 2 kinds of dex.
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23 December 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
x
03:05
x
In reply to this message
ok i wasn't aware of that.. btc to amoveo atomic swap DEX? in the future if centralized exchanges are banned, that will be very useful.
b
03:12
borisko_
Did anyone here have a problem wirh withdraw on qtrade? How safe is trading with veo there?
s
03:20
sanket
It's very safe
03:20
If you have a problem reach out to them on discord
Z
04:03
Zack
In reply to this message
You can swap synthetic btc for veo now.
We would need to connect cross chain atomic swaps to bitcoin to do the next step of swapping synthetic btc for btc on the bitcoin blockchain.
EA
10:12
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
perpetuals?
Mikail C invited Mikail C
24 December 2020
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Z
19:39
Zack
http://159.89.87.58:8080/contracts.html I made a simpler interface for scalar oracle creation.
Now you just give it the contract id, and it loads the rest of the information.
It looks up an estimate of the final price, but it also gives you the option to change that final price to what you think it should be.
Z
19:55
Zack
qtrade has a channel on the discord
25 December 2020
LS
00:15
L S
any plans on adopting VEO for retards/idiots/normies ?
00:44
so this one has relatively better design
栾
01:09
栾峰
0
hasan mandalov invited hasan mandalov
JS
11:19
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
Zack is not a good product person, so never?
OK
11:37
O K
In reply to this message
Should we use futarchy to determine if we will hire a product person with some additional block reward?
s
12:20
sanket
In reply to this message
That sounds like a good idea
x
14:21
x
In reply to this message
does it really need a product person? UI design can be just an one time task
14:22
and it's doesnt cost much , if you just want to be simple.
14:29
it's easy to hire in bitcointalk.org with crypto, or upwork ,fiverr etc, there's a lot of remote worker interested in one time task. I see no reason this can be a problem, this is the easiest part of a blockchain project. It's easily ourtsouced. I remember someone here offered to do it for free.
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Z
21:26
Zack
https://github.com/17Q4MX2hmktmpuUKHFuoRmS5MfB5XPbhod/dropzone_ruby/blob/master/Drop%20Zone%20-%20Whitepaper.pdf
Drop zone.
The idea is to use blockchain technology for buying and selling physical things without any restrictions.
D
21:45
Devender
In reply to this message
And how to use futarchy?
Z
21:46
Zack
im setting up a futarchy optimized tab now
D
21:46
Devender
Nice
Z
21:46
Zack
to create the 3 markets in one step
Z
22:29
Zack
here is what the tx looks like so far, for making a futarchy market.
[["contract_new_tx","BFBXzpB8GA395dSnzcK9jMcqQEAEpDZLaKe5XixpllpJMcQbIo3vbRCkCcE6Vsz370w6CSaGiKsN9Dxae3QqjaU=","bZCh1Xo0e0bp6ialYe4nL2Xu6dt1x5Y7z5jQljVcYXI=",152050,2,"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=",0],["contract_use_tx",0,0,0,"CQRDZJQuzhb7HfJnuDeytMvv8Ajb46rlelPXoZUk8yk=",55555556,2,"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=",0],["market_new_tx",0,0,0,"CQRDZJQuzhb7HfJnuDeytMvv8Ajb46rlelPXoZUk8yk=","CQRDZJQuzhb7HfJnuDeytMvv8Ajb46rlelPXoZUk8yk=",2,1,6172840,55554556],["market_new_tx",0,0,0,"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=","CQRDZJQuzhb7HfJnuDeytMvv8Ajb46rlelPXoZUk8yk=",0,1,1000,1000],["market_new_tx",0,0,0,"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=","CQRDZJQuzhb7HfJnuDeytMvv8Ajb46rlelPXoZUk8yk=",0,2,44444444,49382716],["contract_use_tx",0,0,0,"aOTm78x/m4PmaDSfriye1CARO6nUVCdJm3shLW7RtTI=",100000000,2,"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=",0],["contract_new_tx","BFBXzpB8GA395dSnzcK9jMcqQEAEpDZLaKe5XixpllpJMcQbIo3vbRCkCcE6Vsz370w6CSaGiKsN9Dxae3QqjaU=","n9M52YQLAE9zTXFBnklSAqVatznMgs8TUviUaDp6SiY=",152050,2,"aOTm78x/m4PmaDSfriye1CARO6nUVCdJm3shLW7RtTI=",1],["contract_use_tx",0,0,0,"T8QF10EAd76ZmEUtYQLp7YcO6oFV3/KMnYM4s/Ov23M=",66666667,2,"aOTm78x/m4PmaDSfriye1CARO6nUVCdJm3shLW7RtTI=",1],["market_new_tx",0,0,0,"T8QF10EAd76ZmEUtYQLp7YcO6oFV3/KMnYM4s/Ov23M=","T8QF10EAd76ZmEUtYQLp7YcO6oFV3/KMnYM4s/Ov23M=",2,1,22222223,66665667],["market_new_tx",0,0,0,"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=","T8QF10EAd76ZmEUtYQLp7YcO6oFV3/KMnYM4s/Ov23M=",0,1,1000,1000],["market_new_tx",0,0,0,"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=","T8QF10EAd76ZmEUtYQLp7YcO6oFV3/KMnYM4s/Ov23M=",0,2,33333333,44444444],["contract_new_tx","BFBXzpB8GA395dSnzcK9jMcqQEAEpDZLaKe5XixpllpJMcQbIo3vbRCkCcE6Vsz370w6CSaGiKsN9Dxae3QqjaU=","n9M52YQLAE9zTXFBnklSAqVatznMgs8TUviUaDp6SiY=",152050,2,"aOTm78x/m4PmaDSfriye1CARO6nUVCdJm3shLW7RtTI=",2],["contract_use_tx",0,0,0,"+phaoBpf6sYJitxh5tKFSvn+Bf79Cww1O4oZhCybaYM=",100000000,2,"aOTm78x/m4PmaDSfriye1CARO6nUVCdJm3shLW7RtTI=",2],["market_new_tx",0,0,0,"+phaoBpf6sYJitxh5tKFSvn+Bf79Cww1O4oZhCybaYM=","+phaoBpf6sYJitxh5tKFSvn+Bf79Cww1O4oZhCybaYM=",1,2,99999000,99999000],["market_new_tx",0,0,0,"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=","+phaoBpf6sYJitxh5tKFSvn+Bf79Cww1O4oZhCybaYM=",0,1,1000,1000],["market_new_tx",0,0,0,"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=","+phaoBpf6sYJitxh5tKFSvn+Bf79Cww1O4oZhCybaYM=",0,2,1000,1000]]
x
23:06
x
In reply to this message
can this be used for bitcoin & cash otc trading? suppose one day all exchanges are banned,and banks even begin track and ban transations related to crypto
23:09
in that case , the trade has to been done face to face so , not anonymous.
Z
23:28
Zack
In reply to this message
Maybe. I still havent read it all.
26 December 2020
mx
03:23
mr x
Dropzone still uses reputation system. The true cypherpunk way to do this is for buyer and seller lock up money together (2x item price for buyer and 1x for seller). Upon delivery buyer and seller then sign tx to release money (2x for seller and 1x back to buyer).
Z
05:40
Zack
http://159.89.87.58:8080/wallet.html
I set up the futarchy tab.
It still hasn't been tested very much.
mx
05:53
mr x
nice
b
06:06
borisko_
In reply to this message
Ban this, its fraud
OK
06:07
O K
In reply to this message
Thanks, done.
06:07
Happy holidays everyone.
Z
07:02
Zack
http://explorer.veopool.pw/index.php?input=145093
Here is the test futarchy market I made. this explorer isn't parsing it right.
S
08:46
Sy
I'll look into it next year, can't parse what it doesn't know 😝
Z
18:02
Zack
thinking about the gradient descent strategy we are using for optimizing swaps.
I'm thinking that combining the different paths, it is a non-linear system. And so gradient descent only ever works in the limit of taking very small steps.
But the non-linearity can be very extreme, if some of the markets have very little liquidity, they change price so quickly.
If we make the step size smaller, there will always be a market with low enough liquidity that causes the system to break.

So im thinking we should take into account the 2nd order gradient, called the laplacian, which is generated by the laplace operator. Basically we just take the gradient twice.
So as well as calculating a vector of the price we are paying along each path, we would be calculating a vector of how quickly the price changes, if we are to put a little more money into each path.

If we calculate the laplacian, then we will have an idea of how much liquidity there is along each path.
And that will give us a better idea of how much more or less money we need to invest on each path to cause all the paths to have the same price.

So currently, if the price on a path is P, we use the gradient to measure the slope S. The amount we are currently spending on that path is X. then we model it with something like P1 = P0 + S*X. For paths with low liquidity, this estimate is very inaccurate, which leads to the oscillations and bad trading prices.

If we also account for the acceleration on each path A, we could more accurately model it with P1 = P0 + S*X + A*X*X. and that would allow us to take much smaller step sizes on the low liquidity paths, prevent oscillations, and converge on a solution faster.
Z
18:54
Zack
if we have a market with currency amounts p and q, the constant K=p*q.
lets say you are spending p coins to get q coins, so we have K=(p+A)*(q-B)
then (d/dA)B = q/(p+2A) (ignoring 2nd order terms, because we are taking small steps in the gradient descent)
and (d/dA)^2 B = -(2*q/((p*p)+2Ap))
To keep it simple, I think we can estimate for the case where A is 0. Because we are only taking small steps in the gradient descent.
= -(2*q/(p*p))

So we can estimate the liquidity as -2*price/(how many of the type of shares you are spending)
Where "liquidity" is how quickly the price is changing if you spend more.
18:56
2*(current price)/(how much of the type you are spending already exists in the market)
19:00
currently we calculate the gradient of a path, which is the price on that path, by multiplying the price of every step.
we want to do something similar for the laplacian and liquidity on a path.
Z
22:35
Zack
I think the way we want to do this, we should calculate the gradient like normal, and also calculate the laplacian.
Then we should rebalance the gradient based on the amount of liquidity on each path.
If a path has 1/10th the liquidity of the path with the most, then we should take 1/10th as big a step.

so instead of taking a step in the direction of the gradient, we are going to take the dot product of the gradient with the laplacian, and take a step in that direction.

So we need to figure out how to calculate the liquidity on a multi-step path.
Z
23:00
Zack
ok, I tried calculating the liquidity for 2 steps.
23:01 
K1 = p1*q1
K2 = p2*q2

spend A to get B, spend B to get C
(p1+A)*(q1-B)=K1
(p2+B)*(q2-C)=K2
B = q1 - (K1/(p1+A))
C = q2 - (K2/(p2+B))
 = q2 - (K2/(p2 + q1 - (K1/(p1+A))))

chain rule, Y = K1/(p1+A)
C = q2 - (K2/(p2 + q1 - Y))
dC/dY = K2*(-1)/((p2+q1-Y)^2)
dY/dA = -K1/((p1+A)^2)
dC/dA = dC/dY * dY/dA
-> K2*K1/(((p2+q1-(K1/(p1+A))) * (p1+A))^2)
=K2*K1/((((p2+q1)*(p1+A)) - K1)^2)
= K2*K1 / (((p2*p1 + q1*p1 + A*(p2+q1)) - K1)^2)
= K2*K1 / ((p2*p1 + K1 + A*(p2+q1) - K1)^2)
= K2*K1 / ((p2*p1 + A(p2+q1))^2)
dropping A^2 term for simplicity
= K2*K1 / ((p2*p1)^2 + 2*A*p2*p1*(p2+q1))
substitute X = (p2*p1)^2, Y = 2*p2*p1*(p2+q1)
= K2*K1 / (X + A*Y)

(d/dA)^2 C = -K2*K1*Y / ((X + A*Y)^2)
dropping A^2 term for simplicity
= -K2*K1*Y / (X*X + 2*A*Y*X)
if A is nearly 0,
= -K2*K1*Y / (X*X)
plugging in X and Y
= -K2*K1*2*p2*p1*(p2+q1) / ((p2*p1)^4)
= -K2*K1*2*(p2+q1) / ((p2*p1)^3)
23:02
for one step we have:
-(2*q/(p*p))

and for 2 steps
-K2*K1*2*(p2+q1) / ((p2*p1)^3)

the form seems different. maybe there is a better way to express this.
23:05
for 2 steps could also be
-q1*q2*2*(p2+q1) / ((p2*p1)^2)
23:06
which looks the same as (one step for market1)*(one step for market2)*(-1/2)*(q1+p2)
Z
23:21
Zack
so I guess that a 3 step path would be
(one step for market 1)*(one step for market 2)*(one step for market 3)*(-(1/2)^2)*(q1+p2)*(q2+p3)
to continue the pattern.
23:25
Using unit analysis to check if this result makes sense.
for a one step path we have q/(p*p)
q and p both have units of veo. so the liquidity is units of 1/veo.
we need the 2 step path to have the same units.
(one step for market1)*(one step for market2)*(q1+p2) is (1/veo)*(1/veo)*veo = 1/veo
so unit analysis checks out. maybe this works.
27 December 2020
Z
01:35
Zack
I think this is actually calculating the inverse of liquidity. Because it is how quickly the price moves when you buy more.
01:35
q1 + p2 seems really promising, because it is preserving the symmetry of how it is the same process whether you buy one kind or the other.
01:43
I think doing gradient dot laplace isnt the right strategy.
Instead we should calculate the weighted average price of all the paths, and then calculate how much we need to increase or decrease each path to make them all have the same price.

So, more like the newtons method that we had started with, but with 2nd order equations that include the liquidity factor, instead of linear equations of price.
I
02:29
Instinct
Lots of spam/scammers in discord rn @zack_amoveo
JS
02:36
Jon Snow
In reply to this message
They chose the wrong place to hustle
I
02:36
Instinct
In reply to this message
😂💯
S
02:57
Sy
Removed 2
Z
05:14
Zack
I think the formula for newtons method is like:
S = instantaneous price, A = liquidity constant we calculate as above, X = how much we spend on this path, Y = how much you buy on this path
Y = S*X - A*X*X

So we can just leave A positive when calculating it, and then subtract when plugging into this part.

And when calculating A, instead of dividing by 2 every time, we can think of it as taking the average of q1 and p2.

We want to solve for X in Y = S*X - A*X*X
05:17
X = (S +- sqrt(S*S - 4*A*Y)) / 2A
05:18
im pretty sure there should only be one solution here. so which is it?
05:21
well, what we really want is to solve for X such that Y/X on every path is the same. so maybe we want to solve a little differently
05:21
Y/X = S - AX
05:23
if we want the price to be P.
then solve for X such that P = S - AX
X = (S-P)/A
05:25
(updated guess on how much to spend on this path) = ((current price on this path)-(target price))/(inverse-liquidity value calculated for this path)
05:29
In reply to this message
yeah, I removed 8 in the last few hours.
05:30
im doing IP bans, so you would think it would stop eventually.
I hope they aren't blocking a bunch of VPN exit nodes.
05:30
maybe I should make a moderation bot that looks for the name of the project they are spamming.
Z
06:52
Zack
yeah, or maybe just banning the word "airdrop" with various spellings
Z
07:25
Zack
It looks like trying to calculate the liquidity constant A for each path analytically is going to be a lot of work.
07:26
If we were just doing lists of markets, it wouldn't be so bad.
but sometimes we use a market to buy the other kind of shares so we can convert them into the source currency.
07:28
we aren't currently calculating the price of the path analytically either. we do an estimate by taking a small step.
So maybe we can do 2 small steps, and estimate the acceleration on each path similarly.
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Cryptolorian invited Cryptolorian
Paul invited Paul
b
23:32
borisko_
Why does it show no internet?
23:32
In amoveo wallet
Z
23:32
Zack
Are you using the light node?
b
23:38
borisko_
Can I use light node on Android?
Z
23:38
Zack
Yes
23:38
http://159.89.87.58:8080/wallet.html you can try out the light node I am serving
23:39
it is not very safe to connect a private key with a lot of money to a light node served by someone else.
23:39
every full node acts as a server for the light node. so you can set up your own.
23:39
here is the full node software https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
b
23:40
borisko_
Thanks
23:41
🙏
28 December 2020
Deleted invited Deleted Account
Z
06:09
Zack
i updated the swap tool to use the laplacian strategy.
It seems to find better prices for trading in almost all cases. and there are situations where the old strategy would completely fail, but the laplacian strategy is still finding good trades.
http://159.89.87.58:8080/wallet.html
tell me if anything is broken, it was a pretty big change.
06:10
I didn't delete the old version yet. so we can quickly revert this change if we need to.
mx
08:53
mr x
Ok. I tried create binary contract about coinbase delisting XRP.
08:54
"create_tab_builder.js:391 Uncaught ReferenceError: Price is not defined"
Z
08:54
Zack
Can you send a screenshot of how you filled out the page?
08:55
I reproduced the error
mx
08:55
mr x
source: veo, statement: "Coinbase to delist XRP before February 2021", initial prob: 0.5, amount of source initially: 1
Z
08:56
Zack
I dont need a screenshot
mx
08:56
mr x
ok
08:57
maybe word it as halt trading rather than delist
Z
08:59
Zack
it should be working now
08:59
I accidentally capitalized a variable, it should have been lower case.
mx
09:01
mr x
Ok tx accepted
MF
09:20
Mr Flintstone
cool
mx
09:20
mr x
It doesn't auto advertise the contract?
MF
09:20
Mr Flintstone
are there any existing information markets on coinbase delisting xrp?
Z
09:20
Zack
The 10 with the most liquidity get listed automatically
mx
09:21
mr x
In reply to this message
dunno
Z
09:21
Zack
Maybe i need to reboot the explorer if it isnt showing up automatically