Amoveo ♥🧿
20 October 2021
FS
23:43
Full Stack
Hi All

I am a Senior Blockchain and Full Stack Developer with core expertise in Frontend, Smart Contract development, DEX, DAPP, NFT, setting up ICOs as well as developing wallet applications and trading bots. I am expertise in React, Vue, Web3.js, Ether.js, Solidity, Rust and Blockchain fundamentals, I can help you with most of the crypto-related tasks and bot-related tasks, setting up blockchain explorer, generating your own currency, or writing smart contracts for token and swap development.

If you are currently hiring a Blockchain Developer or Full Stack Developer, please DM me. my Github id is hiccup1991
21 October 2021
Z
00:16
Zack
im trying to implement inner product arguments
00:17
I am able to do 1 round, and make the proof 1/2 as long.
mx
07:55
mr x
I think your update broke bunch of explorer links
Z
08:03
Zack
In reply to this message
Thanks for mentioning. I fixed some of them. Please tell me if you encounter any others.
mx
08:03
mr x
ok
08:18
this also
Z
08:19
Zack
got it
08:24
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/homomorphic-tools/blob/master/pedersen.erl#L152
I got the basics of inner product arguments working.
This is how we can use bullet proofs to prove some of the values stored in a vector commit, without needing to share the entire vector.

I need to get this a little cleaner, and set up profiling to see how fast it is.
Then next we want to set up multiproofs, so that we can compress lots of these inner product argment proofs into one https://dankradfeist.de/ethereum/2021/06/18/pcs-multiproofs.html#evaluating-a-polynomial-in-evaluation-form-on-a-point-outside-the-domain

This should let us prove all the things we need for a block in a very small amount of space.
08:25
In these last couple of months the ethereum devs have come up with something good that we should copy.
08:25
And we are copying it piece by piece
CM
16:45
Charles Maurice
Idiots, like me, might get something from https://zeroknowledge.fm/episode-202-stateless-ethereum-verkle-tries-with-dankrad-feist/
Z
18:48
Zack
Ethereum has to deal with a lot of politics when it comes to decision making.
And it can take time for good ideas to spread through their community.
The eth cryptographers seems to have realized that this is how we are going to do verkle trees. but it is going to take time for the database developers to understand what it is, and why we need it. Then more time will pass until front end javascript developers can write the verifiers for the proofs. And they probably wont merge the verkle trees into the main net until the light node clients can use them.

If Amoveo has verkle trees first, then we could end up in a situation where Amoveo is used as an example for political arguments in the Ethereum team, when they talk about why the verkle upgrade needs to be done. It is a kind of targeted advertising towards a small very valuable group of people.

The 10x boost to scalability will be nice too.
18:51
After this update, the binary encoding of amoveo objects will be a serious bottleneck.
If we fix that too, then it is like a brand new amoveo.
Blocks that look totally different, databases that look totally different.

I might set it up so that we don't verify blocks from before this point in time. We just download them, and check that they match the headers. Then we have some checkpoint for the state of the database at the beginning of the verkle tree upgrade.
18:52
maybe there could be a configuration option to only download headers, and not entire blocks for that time period. To make it even faster.
Z
19:24
Zack
This version of the verkle tree only supports weak statelessness.
Amoveo is currently using weak statelessness, but we had planned on switching to strong statelessness because merkle trees do support strong statelessness.

What this means is that a mining pool can only include your transaction if that mining pool is keeping a record of the consensus database, and they are storing all the state that your transaction touches.

We can still have shards. There can be mining pools that keep track of different parts of the state.
But to get your tx included, you need to send it to a mining pool that knows all the state related to your tx. And you need to wait until that mining pool finds a block.

If there is some other 3rd party that is storing the consensus state, they can make proofs that your tx is valid. and mining pools can verify this proof.
But mining pools cannot merge this proof with the proofs that they generate.

So mining isn't pure POW. It is also partially proof of space.
A mining pool can only earn a tx fee if they are storing the part of the state needed to process that tx.
19:26
One option is if the mining pool stores nothing, and receives a fully proved block from another node.
So the mining pool just applies the PoW, and doesn't generate any state proof at all.
Z
20:54
Zack
I am a little worried about the cost of computing the proof.
Even if it only takes like 30 seconds.

Because that means a mining pool, it takes 30 seconds for them to be able to start mining after a block is found.

The mining pool that found the previous block, they can already have prepared the proofs for the next block, because they knew exactly what txs were included in the previous block. So this is a centralizing effect on mining pools.

I guess for the extra 30 seconds, mining pools can try to mine a block empty of txs, because if there are no txs then they can calculate the proof instantly.

If every the block reward was much less than the tx fees, this could become a serious problem. The biggest mining pools would be more profitable.
20:57
maybe we can parallelize proof generation.
IS
22:11
Ilmu Somebody
hehe take something relatively balanced, add a new rule, watch the game crumble :)
22:11
I feel like you are icefrog adding new heroes to dota..
Z
23:05
Zack
stateless blockchains like Amoveo really need shorter proofs. It is the biggest weakness of this design currently.
TG
23:18
Toby Ganger
no ability for newcomers to mine, no community, no ecosystem….all WAY bigger problems….but rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic pretending any of this will make a diffeence without the three things above….it’s been 4 years…this nonsense has all but wiped out early investors
Z
23:20
Zack
we have the best oracle and dex available
TG
23:33
Toby Ganger
you still don’t understand that that doesn’t matter at all
23:33
no one cares
23:34
no mining, no community, no ecosystem….zero development towards achieving any of those….it is a SOCIAL technology…..this is why the “community” is still shrinking after 4 years
23:36
you will never get the potential greatest social technology in the world off the ground unless you get community engagement and involvement….this is what brings energy…development…ecosystem…and USE….without it it’s just a time consuming circle jerk without the circle
Z
23:41
Zack
being more scalable wont hurt either
TG
23:42
Toby Ganger
whenever i bring new people to Amoveo they find out there’s a monopoly on mining where they can’t even get the bitstreams to mine it….they find out that there’s no community except one guy pontificating about how this is going to be the greatest thing in the world…and they wonder why they should even bother investing any of their time, machinery, skill-sets, or money on this sad, delusional, masterbatory nonsense….meanwhile holders of 4 years have lost about 95-99% of their investment (not even counting opportunity cost)…..and you just don’t care….there’s a reason that “worse is better” in crypto….you need to build a community (and quickly)…or you have NOTHING….
Z
23:47
Zack
I guess im more interested in tech than pyramid schemes.
Bitcoin was pretty low value the first few years too. I think we have a lot of potential still.
TG
23:48
Toby Ganger
so Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme? Email? Phones? Social Media? pyramid schemes? no…they are social technologies that are useless without additional nodes on the network…(users and infrastructure/ecosystem)…
23:49
and Bitcoin was low value but it was constantly growing as a community…developing…it had an engaged community…it was possible to mine…
23:50
VEO is shrinking in value…shrinking in community…has no energy…no engagement…no mining…nothing but pontificating about grandeur
Z
23:50
Zack
weve got a pretty cool crosschain dex. and a nice oracle.
did you try out the dex yet?
TG
23:51
Toby Ganger
NO ONE CARES BECAUSE NO ONE IS USING IT….AND NO ONE WILL USE IT
Z
23:51
Zack
wanna use the amoveo oracle to bet on that?
TG
23:52
Toby Ganger
bet on that? are you kidding me man? I bet on that by investing nicely 4 years ago…and i’ve lost that bet BIG TIME
Z
23:52
Zack
the new binary bet tool would work perfectly for this
TG
23:53
Toby Ganger
the bet was “zack has some great tech here…all he needs is to foster a community and ecosystem and this thing could be huge”….and yet 4 years later we’re in the same place…..social tech without the “social”
Z
23:54
Zack
Amoveo is the only blockchain that can verify blocks in parallel. We couldn't do that 4 years ago. It is getting better.
A long history of consistent improvement looks good.
TG
23:55
Toby Ganger
NO
23:55
ONE
23:55
CARES
23:56
no community, no mining, no engagement, no ecosystem, no infrastructure development = intellectual masterbation…toys for the 11 people still paying attention to dick around with for shits and giggles
23:56
you want something that actually WORKS in a real world sense…you need the “social”
Z
23:59
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/Amoveo_p2p_derivatives_explorer/pulse
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-explorer//
The infrastructure is being developed all the time. This is how we keep track of smart contracts before they get on-chain. and the data organized into an explorer. it is the back end for the contract explorer and account explorer, and all those pages.
23:59
If a community was really the only thing we lacked, then Amoveo would be a great opportunity. We could just do a little advertising and the project would explode.
22 October 2021
TG
00:00
Toby Ganger
no no no…this is not “infrastructure”…this is you building more gadgets that no one will use….it’s like building a model train set and calling it development
00:00
no one will ever ride that train
Z
00:00
Zack
people have used links to the contract explorer and account explorer in this group. to explain something that happened on-chain
00:01
we even have a historical price chart embedded into the contract explorer
TG
00:01
Toby Ganger
if no newcomer can mine..and no new eyes/minds are aware of it due to it’s perpetual dwelling in oblivion…then there can’t be growth of an infrastructure because it’s just you playing around with stuff that no one will use…while one miner has half the hash rate and won’t share bitstreams....
00:02
“we even have a cool pretend village on our model train set…i’m sure the passengers will come any day now"
00:02
no one cares
00:05
to be fair…i’m not discounting the quanity or quality of your work…i’m simply saying that it is and always will be for naught with your approach
Z
00:06
Zack
It's not like other blockchain projects are doing better.
The only real use cases are speculating on coin prices.
They generate fake volume and pump up ponzies.

Having a bigger community doesn't mean you have progressed towards the goal of a winning project. Even in social technology.

What is important is having a community that has self-sustaining growth, without depending on new investment to keep it going.
Like, people who use the tool because they need it to solve a real problem, and recommend it to friends because their friend needs it too.

Amoveo has a much easier time realizing if it has achieved self-sustaining growth, because we don't create false signals from a ponzi.
TG
00:08
Toby Ganger
how delusional can you be? there are DEX’s doing billions of dollars of volume….there is DEFI doing billions of dollars of volume….there are digital bucketshops doing billions of dollars of volume…..you’re over here with your model trains trying to compare yourself to the airline industry
Z
00:09
Zack
Dex and defi for speculating on coins, inflated with fake volume to make coins and markets look legitimate
TG
00:10
Toby Ganger
That is the PRIMARY use case for crypto globally…speculation on assets that are “artificially” inflated….it’s no different than the stock market….now you’re comparing your model train set to the SP 500
00:12
it doesn’t matter if YOU value these shitcoins….there are millions of people globally who value this stuff….so why is the plastic casino in your model train village more “valuable” than the MGM Grand in Vegas?
00:12
you’re actiing as if your scale for valuing things is even remotely relevant compared to how the world values things
00:14
that’s like me saying “all the top sellng music in world has no value and the artists are artificially constructed images”….no shit Sherlock they are….what matters is that millions of people value them…therefore they have value….you’re a garage band tinkering in their basement on their daddy’s guitar talking about “THIS IS REAL MUSIC”
00:17
do you even care that new miners can’t mine? or are you gonna call them Ponzi Schemers also?
Z
00:17
Zack
Im not saying they arent valuable. Im saying that they aren't nearer to winning.

Having a bigger market cap at this point, it isnt a good way to tell which project is nearer to winning.
00:18
Its not just a matter of tech either. A lot of these projects set themselves up to be politically unable to make the decisions they need to make to be able to win.
Like, a block reward schedule that makes them stuck over-rewarding early holders.
TG
00:18
Toby Ganger
That is the difference between winners and losers…..losers talk about how they’re going to win…winners just win…..and I didn’t say anything about marketcap….i said NO MINERS, NO ENGAGEMENT, NO COMMUNITY, NO INFRASTRUCTURE….the price is just a good metric for determining those things (with speculative value layered on top)
00:22
I fully expect you to keep dicking around with this shit for another 4 years and the community will shrink from 11 people to maybe 6…..
00:23
there will be zero partnerships…zero apps built on the ecosystem…zero engagement…1 miner…and you in your garage playing virtuoso guitar to the wall talking about “i’m going to be bigger than the Beatles”
Z
00:29
Zack
We will probably lose. It is the biggest most valuable competition for humanity. To make the next world reserve currency.

But if we try to compete by focusing on the same things as the other projects, we will certainly lose.

Our only chance is if we explore the surrounding space of possibilities, and stumble upon some big opportunity that everyone else had missed.
TG
00:32
Toby Ganger
Bitcoin is the next world reserve currency….and it’s far inferior technically….but it’s had a constantly expanding community for 12 years driven by proper incentives and diversified innovation and infrastucture development
00:33
VEO can be the greatest tech ever invented but without a community and proper incentive alignment to foster one….it will remain your delusion of grandeur
00:34
i’m angry because i know what this tech could be right now…and that an engaged community could be building and adding to it right now…but you insist on failure
00:34
and i’ve lost a fortune on my bet on you
00:36
one developer, one miner, and a conversation with yourself in Telegram does not make a social technology develop…not into a useful DEX..not into a useful currency….and definitely not the world reserve currency
00:37
the hubris is akin to someone saying they’re going to develop the perfect language that will become the universal language of the world….the lingua franca…..”yeah English, Mandarin, Spanish, Arabic, etc… are doing well now…but when i’m done with this language EVERYONE is gonna speak it”……
Z
00:52
Zack
Haha, well i am a toki pona speaker.
If i admit that i will probably fail, then it isnt a delusion.
It is good to set big goals.
K
01:03
K
In reply to this message
Zack himself cannot prove that PoS and the way other protocols scale is vulnerable. Those protocols are now securing billions and it's been years since he released his proofs yet no one, including him, is able to attack them
TG
01:05
Toby Ganger
In reply to this message
Correct
IS
01:14
Ilmu Somebody
Toby you are super rude. You make all these statements as if they are "obviously true" but the fact is Zack has made this thing by himself and you are just someone who is giving him a hard time for no reason..
01:15
In reply to this message
Because the attack requires a level of coordination that we are unable to motivate at present time
TG
02:08
Toby Ganger
In reply to this message
have you been around 4 years watching this nonsense? have you watched your investment fall 99% in a bull market? rude? the guy is in denial….i’m giving him a hard time for a very good reason and i would argue most of this “community” agrees…i’ve already said a million times the tech that he’s built is amazing….i just said it is useless without community, miners, engagement, and infrastructure….and that has to be built over time as well….and he ignores that reality
02:09
it’s not out of hate or lack of respect for his skill….it’s because the tech is so good i’m saying this because it’s being wasted
02:09
stop being a sycophant and let’s address the problems like grownups
IS
02:10
Ilmu Somebody
In reply to this message
sure, all I'm saying is that your attitude is far from constructive and these rants you go on are counterproductive to your goal.. if you want to affect development you'll need to find a better way to work with zack.
TG
02:10
Toby Ganger
do you realize i’ve been communicating the same points to him for 4 years? as have several others? but he never listens….most of have left the community and given up….i’m just done politely pointing things out
IS
02:12
Ilmu Somebody
maybe you should re-examine your assumption that he doesn't understand your point and start looking for the real reason that your method doesn't work
TG
02:12
Toby Ganger
or maybe he’s just autistic and doesn’t understand anything human-facing…which is fine..for building tech…but not social tech because that needs a community to function
IS
02:13
Ilmu Somebody
or maybe you are just a bully and he wants to leave low hanging fruit for people who let the work do the talking
TG
02:13
Toby Ganger
not “maybe”…he clearly is
02:13
ok kiddo…i’m a bully…jesus christ you’re ridiculous
02:14
i’m a bully who is constantly complementing him and trying to save him from himself
IS
02:15
Ilmu Somebody
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C. S. Lewis
TG
02:15
Toby Ganger
imagine using that quote for this context
IS
02:15
Ilmu Somebody
haha
TG
02:15
Toby Ganger
how profoundly stupid
IS
02:16
Ilmu Somebody
Idk the whole situation is absurd
TG
02:16
Toby Ganger
yes it is absurd
02:16
to have lost 99% of invested value in 4 years while the market has grown 100 fold
02:17
did you know there used to be excitement and engagement in the Amoveo community? there was
02:17
it’s all long faded because people got exasperated with Zack
IS
02:17
Ilmu Somebody
if you care so much then do something about it; you can launch a network with the amoveo codebase, rebrand it and make a snazzy front end, shill some people and recover some of your losses :^)
TG
02:18
Toby Ganger
right because investors have to be coders/marketers or their points are invalid
02:18
but Zack doesn’t even WANT investors
02:18
he looks down on them
02:18
the very people that give social tech utility
IS
02:18
Ilmu Somebody
bah
02:19
nonsense
TG
02:19
Toby Ganger
nonsense? he’s said it himself!
IS
02:19
Ilmu Somebody
In reply to this message
..
TG
02:20
Toby Ganger
people are driven by incentives….the incentive for financial/monetary instruments is ROI (greed)…social tech in the financial space must have incentives for users/community to be part of the tech…
02:21
Zack has said he doesn’t want those people…he wants people only committed to the cause
02:21
which means expecting people to act counter to their incentives for some loosely defined greater good
02:21
it’s like Communism
IS
02:22
Ilmu Somebody
if you put a number next to a username then users will want to make that number go up... old school forum systems had people competing for most posts or most number of years or whatever kind of seniority, the issue is not about getting some of these diluted fiats but about constructing an economic system that is infrastructure generating so we can do away with taxes
02:22
if the economics work then someone will be able to make that front end
02:23
it's like a unit test
TG
02:23
Toby Ganger
and you DO that by building a community…and how do you get in the community? by buying VEO…and that makes VEO price go up
02:24
money is like forum clout/likes/gold etc..in that regard…it’s only useful within the community that uses it…
02:24
but we have no community and i’ve watched it shrink
IS
02:24
Ilmu Somebody
all that says is that the product doesn't work yet
02:24
why shill something that doesn't work? that'd be dishonest
02:25
and if it does work then it doesn't need shilling
TG
02:28
Toby Ganger
that’s the whole point…this is why in crypto it’s understood that “worse is better”….because when people buy or mine and become part of the community…then that attracts new devs…new partnerships…new infrastuctures possibilities…new visions for how to develop things….all while the community grows and utility grows……if you try to develop the perfect product first and then start building a community you’ll just keep pivoting forever
IS
02:30
Ilmu Somebody
but zack is free to do his research in whatever way he wants, if you want something to happen then you can do it.
TG
02:30
Toby Ganger
no one said anything about shilling…these strawmen are annoying…..how come no one has shit to say about the fact that one miner has half of the hashing power and no one will give out the bitstream to new miners…so essentially it’s impossible for new miners to mine….does that help the network grow or keep it secure?
IS
02:31
Ilmu Somebody
just start a new network then with the same codebase, there are anyway only 10 miners so if you have a couple your hashrate is not too far off and the wealth distribution will be more even.
TG
02:33
Toby Ganger
In reply to this message
imagine you bought shares in a social tech company about to launch…and then the CEO decides he’s just gonna spend four more years pontificating on how to launch everything “perfectly”….and you lose millions of dollars…and then some guy says “hey you shouldn’t be annoyed you mean bully…he’s free to do whatever he wants….go start your own”…..my guess is you would probably want to stab that person in the face
IS
02:33
Ilmu Somebody
then you misread me completely as a person haha
02:34
but even then the analogy breaks down when you say that you invest in a company where the CEO is doing something vs buying a cryptocurrency where a volunteer developer is maintaining the project continuously for years
TG
02:35
Toby Ganger
volunteer? he owns half of the damn coins
IS
02:35
Ilmu Somebody
so?
TG
02:35
Toby Ganger
so it’s clearly not a volunteer
IS
02:35
Ilmu Somebody
why not?
TG
02:37
Toby Ganger
so if i work for a company but I own half the shares which are tradeable and i’m the sole person in charge of it’s direction…and i literally pay myself half of all the new shares issued…you’re gonna all me a volunteer?
IS
02:37
Ilmu Somebody
this company ~ cryptocurrency thing is a false equivalency
TG
02:37
Toby Ganger
it’s really not
02:38
there’s a reason he gets the dev reward and not you
02:38
it’s his chain
IS
02:38
Ilmu Somebody
In reply to this message
yeah exactly
TG
02:38
Toby Ganger
by making it go public he solicited investors
02:38
and then he shit on them
IS
02:38
Ilmu Somebody
bah, don't invest in centralized shit
TG
02:39
Toby Ganger
this is centralized because there’s no damn community
02:39
that’s entirely the problem
02:39
and shoes away anyone who wants to add value to the space
IS
02:39
Ilmu Somebody
so the point is; you made a bad investment, learned a valuable lesson.. and what?
02:39
this project is interesting. it's not a good investment but it's interesting
TG
02:40
Toby Ganger
he’s no different than a tech startup that solicits investments…pockets them all…and then sits around talking about the product for the next 4 years instead of releasing it
IS
02:40
Ilmu Somebody
yes he is.. this isn't a tech startup
02:40
this is free software
TG
02:40
Toby Ganger
In reply to this message
this is entirely the point….if you think that a crypto investment is not a good investment but is interesting…you do not understand the economics of this space enough to be talking
IS
02:41
Ilmu Somebody
hehe
02:41
you are so authoritarian
TG
02:41
Toby Ganger
if a crypto investment is not a good investment then it is USELESS
IS
02:41
Ilmu Somebody
that's a very narrow pov
TG
02:41
Toby Ganger
if by authoritarian you mean “bound by reality”…then yes
02:41
it’s not a narrow POV
02:42
the ONLY metric to determine crypto success is an increase in value….if it doesn’t increase in value…or in fact loses 99%…then it is a completely useless endeavor
IS
02:42
Ilmu Somebody
it's the pov of someone who bases their evaluation on things like certificates, fiat, way people dress, etc.
TG
02:42
Toby Ganger
because the loss in value means that no one is using it…no one is wanting to use it…it’s losing nodes on the network..not gaining them
IS
02:43
Ilmu Somebody
your notion of value is the issue here (from my pov)
TG
02:44
Toby Ganger
it’s not my notion of value…my personal subjective metrics for value are IRRELEVANT….as are YOURS……the market determines value….in fact that’s the entire point of Futarchy is allowing prices to dictate what is true/good in society….and yet you’re denying the underlying premise of this coin to defend this coin
IS
02:45
Ilmu Somebody
yeah I don't agree with the underlying premise of this coin
02:45
I don't believe in the "global reserve currency" or any kind of "central currency"
02:45
value is relative
EA
02:45
Eric Arsenault
In reply to this message
100% agree with this
TG
02:47
Toby Ganger
you agreeing with that is just an example that he doesn’t understand economics at all….and neither do you…..if a coin doesn’t reward early adopters heavily…they don’t get early adopters…and then they don’t get any adopters….there’s no incentive for anyone
IS
02:47
Ilmu Somebody
In reply to this message
meh
TG
02:47
Toby Ganger
“oooh let me take a financial risk on this product that is really early on and has nothing to show yet…..maybe i’ll make not a lot of money”!
IS
02:49
Ilmu Somebody
the winner in this space will be able to regulate value and simulate political systems, it won't necessarily be a coin but it will definitely be some kind of social software.
TG
02:51
Toby Ganger
the winner in this space is and will be Bitcoin….because it onboarded new community members through easy access mining….and easy access to buying….that brought it more development…more infrastructure…more layers….and now it is a permanent fixture that will be the future reserve currency of the world
02:53
we have a coin that new miners can’t mine…the dev tells new potential community members to fuck off because their ideals aren’t aligned with his…and where all partners or potential partners in development or infrastructure growth are pushed away either directly or indirectly because their incentives didn’t align with Zack’s freedom to pontificate
SG
10:20
Shivan Group
what is zack trying to sell?
10:20
zack - what are you selling?
jb
10:46
john blair
In reply to this message
Wait amoveo is a reserve currency project?
10:47
I thought this was a betting market platform or whatever the right words would be
SS
11:22
Steve Steve
What should I do if the mobile wallet prompts that there is no network?
SG
12:19
Shivan Group
In reply to this message
What is zack selling? What is the product……?
12:20
he is clearly trying to sell something given all the discussion above
jb
12:20
john blair
If anything he is selling his philosophy or ideas. He's not selling something directly. Im unsure how your missing that point. Im just saying I was misunderstanding what this project was about, I think.
SG
12:22
Shivan Group
what would zack say he is selling? Zack, anything here? you have accepted money to make a product. so you are either selling something or a scam artist
12:25
Here is a lesson: Economy 101: Everyone has ideas. We feel they are valuable, but because everyone has them they are in excess supply. Supply vs demand dictates that are worthless. The only way to make them valuable is to do something about it.
12:25
I dont see shit here. Prove me wrong or you are worse than the salesman I am sure you have hated on other projects.
jb
12:27
john blair
Zack atlwast does coding and has for years towards this project. A scam artist I dont think so, is he guilty of moving the goal post and never finishing? Maybe yeah
SG
12:31
Shivan Group
moving the goal post is the definition of MLM schemes, the product is “just around the corner”. hang on a bit longer…. You can claim ignorance or have malintent, the outcome is the same. by moving the goal posts its seems the projects has become the exact thing i am sure it set out to fix.
12:32
*sad horn
12:33
seems the ship could be corrected given the smart people here, but it would take doing the hard things. ideas are cheap, just ask the MLM guys
SS
14:04
Steve Steve
Does VEO have a hard fork?
Z
16:43
Zack
In reply to this message
I pmed him about the light wallet I wrote.
16:51
In reply to this message
Yeah, I can see the confusion.
We want Amoveo to be the biggest global currency.
When we had started the project, I reviewed the economy and saw that financial derivatives seemed to be the place where the majority of liquid capital would be locked up in a global currency.
So at first, we were working with the assumption that being the best platform for derivatives would lead to being the best currency.

But since then, we realized that the reason a particular currency is used to collateralized contracts, it is because it is a good currency. People want their contracts to have fairly stable value, and they want it to be easy for many other people to potentially be on the other side of the contract, without having to expose themselves to some value that they aren't accustomed to.
Whatever currency works as the best collateral, people would want their smart contracts there.

Now im thinking that whatever currency is used to pay taxes in a global land registry, that is the currency that will win. The land will give so much liquidity and stability, it will be the best collateral for contracts.
16:58
In reply to this message
I am not selling anything, I have not sold anything.
There was no ICO.
I have never sold any of the VEO I received as a developer reward.
I have gained no material wealth from the years of my life invested into Amoveo.

Trying to build the optimal blockchain with you guys is fun. It is a big competition full of programming and math. Lots of hard problems to think about, and smart people to discuss with.
I hope Amoveo gives me profit someday. But even if it does not, I am still happy that I have the opportunity to work on this with you all.

I love the struggle in cryptocurrency, the competitiveness of it. Driving us all to achieve more.
17:06
In reply to this message
I have finished many things for Amoveo.
* Uniswap clone.
* PoW rebalancer to prevent oscillation attacks.
* CPU mining software in C
* state channels
* A betting platform on top of state channels
* custom smart contract VM
* new oracle that is more efficient than any other.
* a smart contract system that doesn't allow sharable-mutible state, so we can parallelize everything and be massively scalable.
* a geometry system for a land registry.
* rewrite of the vm in javascript.
* a gradient descent algorithm for doing arbitrage free exchanges in multiple markets of the uniswap clone.

and many other things.
And I will keep finishing more things for Amoveo.

Did you expect me to just give up when we achieve one goal post, and Amoveo still isn't popular?
I will keep implementing more things until we win. Even if Amoveo ends up looking much different from our original plan.
17:07
In reply to this message
The definition of MLM is when customers are recruited to sell to other customers.

What goal post did you want that did not get reached? Is there something I should put onto the todo list?
Z
19:02
Z
Man you’re doing your thing and stuff is getting done, pity there can’t be a more intuitive GUI (and detailed walkthroughs) though
SS
19:09
Steve Steve
Basically, users don’t understand programming, so they need a better window to display
IS
21:57
Ilmu Somebody
In reply to this message
perpetual stablecoins
Z
22:21
Zack
In reply to this message
Yeah, thats a good one. It is still on the todo list.
We ended up doing the dex first.

But we did run into an issue with that plan.

Initially we were thinking that a stablecoin would make it possible to hold something that stays the same value as btc or gold or whatever, but inside of amoveo.
It turns out that it cant work that way.
We can set it up so the stablecoin will lose 10% if btc loses 10%. So they move in value together.

We cant destroy risk. If we try creating a stablecoin, there needs to be someone on the other side of the trade who is holding long-veo.
And there is necessarily a market for stablecoins and long veo. Like, if long-veo was in high demand, then people would start selling stablecoins at a lower price, because each stablecoin allows more long-veo to exist.

If there is low demand for long-veo, then the reverse happens. It becomes more expensive to get stablecoin contracts.

So the stablecoins are going to be connected to the veo futures market.
You can use the stablecoin to get rid of veo volatility risk, but if the futures are predicting a loss or gain in veo price, you cant use stablecoins to protect against this.

I feel like there is still a lot of potential here, and we do have a design planned out for how we could build them on amoveo. But i think we should review the theory a little more to be clear on how people will use this, before we implement it.

That is why some improvements to the dex and the verkle tree are above perpetual stablecoins on the todo list.
jb
22:51
john blair
Zack you do good work I just have no clue exactly what's going on (that's my own fault), so I misspoke a bit. Keep up the hard work. Hopefully you can find market fit one day. Defintly try to get some help with all the work your doing. Don't want to bury yourself in work, And then not get noticed
23 October 2021
Z
00:06
Zack
Maybe the problem is putting too much on the light node.
Like, there are so many tabs.

Maybe what we want is lots of individual very specific tools, and it hides everything else from you.

So if you just want to spend veo, you don't have to see a button that relates to oracles or smart contracts or anything else.
00:08
A seperate page of html entirely for each thing
00:09
Maybe I can make the URL more powerful. So inside the URL, you list off the different tools that you want access to, and it gives you a page with just those tools.

So you can program the light node, to an extent, just from changing the URL around.
00:17
In reply to this message
we don't want to do it that way. Because you would need to load all the JS files all the time. it would be slower.

So lots of individual html pages then.
SG
03:37
Shivan Group
In reply to this message
MLM companies function because downline participants are encouraged to hold onto the belief that they can achieve large returns, while the statistical improbability of this is de-emphasized. You are selling beliefs and returns in the form of a utopian society. getting your belifs to be recognized by others is the failure because of the lack of execution. perpetual new ideas are MLM strategies, for your dream to be reality you need users.
03:37
[Number 1 to add to tlist would be users so they can pressure test what you havent thought of. You dont know what you dont know. Without it your are pettling tinkture, sams and MLM in the form of ideas.
03:39
there is nothiung but speculation here about users, but there are no users. if you want adopotion, remember that 95% or users are basically retarded. And unfortunatly you cant change that
03:41
right now, users show up. they break your system and dont use it. You call them retarded and then they leave, instead of listening and enabling your dream
03:42
thus its become and MLM idea market, and someone else will probably come in and say “hey this is a good idea” ill just take it, because these goofs arent doing anything about it
IS
03:46
Ilmu Somebody
that framing is unfair and you know it
Z
06:09
Zack
@ShivanGroup
This is a place to talk about Amoveo. We have an off-topic channel on discord if you want to talk about MLM schemes or insult the intelligence of our valued users.
SG
07:02
Shivan Group
I am talking about amoveo, tell me how talking about your idea market is not MLM given you are telling people you are making the next reserve currency. Where is your product? because you are selling a lot of ideas.


You asked for one thing to put on your list. I responded with growing your users, will you prioritize that?
07:03
Not a big essay
07:09
More input will help your amazing ideas grow my friend. With out it this is unfortunately a scam. Maybe not where you intended to land with the best intentions when you started, but your echo chamber landed you there….
ArbeitetNiemals invited ArbeitetNiemals
SS
09:12
Steve Steve
Rising coin prices require liquidity
SG
12:51
Shivan Group
users = liquidity. is amoveo willing to prioritize users? Yes or no. It should be a simple anwser….. Or will you continue to get overly sensitive by constructive feed back on the project and crawl back into the MLM idea scam you are running.
IS
14:46
Ilmu Somebody
ugh
14:48
so your idea of constructive feedback is "do as I say or you must be a scam"
14:57
you guys are completely lacking in basic etiquette .. even if you were able to make a sound argument you still have to negotiate the premise.. instead you do this "proof by repeated assertion" style of argument and throw accusations around as if your assertions are fact.
OK
18:02
O K
Personally think accusations like this should be moderated, but will leave to others to decide
SG
19:03
Shivan Group
everyone here i am sure would agree that data doesnt lie
19:03
how many users are using this product?
19:03
What is the product?
19:03
What is the current “list” being worked on?
19:04
Are users prioritized in the goals here?
19:04
I sees zeros across the score board there, make your own conclusions and acusations after 4-5 years of work.
19:05
Not listening to those around you is actaully worse ettiquite in my opinion. Look at yourselves and the actual data/reults you ahve created from the project.
19:08
if that gets moderated you are all doomed and would confirm my point and your scam. what action would this team choose to take? lets see
x
20:16
x
"how many users are using this product?"

@ShivanGroup there is no 'marketing' for the 'product' (whatever it is)
Z
20:18
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
Here is the place to start learning about amoveo.

The todo list is in the repository with documentation.
SG
20:43
Shivan Group
I have read it. Are you willing to answer the simple question I have asked several times. Simple quesiton = simple answer. Are you willing work to focus on adding users to grow your vision (to demonstrate your ideas are good) and the time this “community” spends on the project? Yes or No.
20:54
I am not asking you “how”, I am asking if it is important enough to prioritize.
Z
22:06
Zack
Lets quantify what we mean here.
An important metric for startups is user acquisition cost.

By "user", im not talking about passive investors who buy up VEO and do not use the product. I am talking about someone who is using amoveo derivatives to hedge their risks, or using the amoveo oracle to bet on sports, or someone using the dex to swap between blockchains. And they keep coming back to use it again.

So lets say our UAC turns out to be $100. by investing $100 in advertising, we get one more regular user of Amoveo.
Next we want to calculate how much we earn from having one more user.
Maybe the user makes 1 transaction per day, and pays $0.05 per transaction.
So if the monthly interest rate is 10% in the crypto world, that user is worth $15 to the blockchain.

In this example, it is costing $100 to gain a user, and the user at most is only increasing the value of the network by $15. So it is impossible to make a profit by focusing on user acquisition. We would be taking a loss to gain each additional user.

We do not have exact numbers currently, but we do know that we have not yet reached the point where the profit of a new user outweighs the cost of acquiring a new user.

We can know this by looking at the current people in the forum. The tech-aware. These are people who are willing to put in extra effort to try out new products before they become popular.
If we can't get a steady user out of a population of tech-aware, then we certainly have not yet reached the point where customer acquisition is profitable.
SG
22:15
Shivan Group
agree, users who use your product is what is needed. Cost of aquisition is the “how”. I doubt anyone here is using the product, considering noone knows what it is. So thats a zero in the user box, hence my harsh comments above. I have read your “to do list” and your user aquisition stratagy (that seems to not have been followed through on). Are you and this group open to a constructive sugestion?
22:20
A troll would bomb you so I’m guessing you would be hesitant to respond. Ill save you the trouble and just throw this it out there.
22:22
I would sugest killing the mining, it is undermining your goals above and is devaluing your work. Mining is leaching 1k of market out of the coin a week which give the external perception of weakness in the project and lack of project support, regardless of the reality you see. Either embrace it or kill it.
22:25
then enable users to actually try your coin doing something, fucking anything. all your ideas look great, pick one and enable users to get coins (not by mining). No-one will ever be as savy as you and will end up being “retards” in the end anyway. accept it dont fight it, other people are experts in thier own right, dont force them to change but show them the light instead.
22:29
they cant see it in your mind, give users something to hold and thats the fucking coin doing something useful. One they can aquire easily.
24 October 2021
Z
05:51
Zack
I had to ban him.
I want everyone to feel comfortable criticizing amoveo. If you see that there is something that we can improve, speak up.
It felt like shivan was making generic complaints without knowing anything about the project
Also, he is insulting our valuable users.
I dont understand his motive, but it seems like some kind of spam.
Z
06:53
Z
Good riddance, and please don’t ban mining 🙏🏻
jb
07:30
john blair
I say keep doing what your doing. Hopefully you can hire on help one day. Seems your doing alot with a small team or maybe even just by yourself
Youcanbecome invited Youcanbecome
TG
13:06
Toby Ganger
anyone else having issues with the light node? i can’t send anything
13:09
works for me
TG
13:10
Toby Ganger
i can’t send anything…it’s odd
13:10
oh that’s a different link than i have
mx
13:12
mr x
http://159.89.87.58:8080/txs.html yea this one is broken
TG
13:12
Toby Ganger
ah
TG
13:36
Toby Ganger
is anyone aware how slow transactions are right now? is this a mining issue?
13:38
and qtrade is requring 60 confirmations…so that’s a multi-hour transaction….insanity
13:47
blocks are happening
TG
13:53
Toby Ganger
5-10 minutes per confimation and it’s requiring 60
13:54
that’s literally half a day to complete a transaction
13:58
how are we not addressing this? this is as basic as it gets
mx
14:02
mr x
lol qtrade requires 60 confs?
TG
14:03
Toby Ganger
yeah…what the hell
14:04
we’re talking about having to wait 10-12 hours or so to get the transaction completed
mx
14:09
mr x
says 30 confs for me
Z
14:23
Zack
In reply to this message
http://159.89.87.58:8080/txs.html what is broken?
mx
14:23
mr x
you can send?
Z
14:24
Zack
In reply to this message
Oh, got it. Ill do a fix.
Z
16:23
Z
Yeah qtrade is really slow, but you can use VEO dex i think
Z
18:05
Zack
In reply to this message
thanks for the report. it should be working now.
mx
18:07
mr x
👍
B
18:09
Ben
is the dex now fully working?
Z
18:10
Zack
In reply to this message
It should be working now yes.
La G invited La G
25 October 2021
TG
01:28
Toby Ganger
looks like Qtrade is crediting at 30 confirmations even though it’s saying 60…but even 30 took about 5-6 hours
Z
04:09
Z
In reply to this message
I really tempted to use it but have no idea how
04:10
Would be nice to have a ubernoob guide, also the idea of having separate html pages for various functions is great
Z
04:12
Zack
In reply to this message
Its not too bad, and we are here to walk you through the steps.

There are 3 dex tabs.
One for turning your veo into a different currency.
One to turn a different currency into veo.
And one for swapping between 2 currencies on different blockchains.
Z
04:12
Z
Can’t you ask the guys that made the VEO wallet app to integrate the functions lik dex and betting in the mobile app?
Z
04:13
Zack
http://159.89.87.58:8080/wallet/wallet.html
On this page. There are 3 tabs that say DEX
Z
04:15
Z
On it now
jb
04:15
john blair
Does veo dex piggyback off of another dex or how is liquidity provided. I cant imagine there's alot of liquidity if it's a unique veo dex order book
Z
04:15
Z
So i need a new wallet that never received funds before?
Z
04:16
Zack
In reply to this message
It is an order book. You place an offer, and maybe someone accepts.
jb
04:16
john blair
Fair enough
Z
04:17
Zack
In reply to this message
The off-amoveo address should be a new address that hasnt received coins. Yes.
You should do it that way for privacy reasons too.
Z
04:17
Z
Oh, fair enough
04:20
So i generate a pubkey and send the VEO to that addres right?
Z
04:20
Zack
In reply to this message
Are you taking your veo off of an exchange?
04:22
for me, I would just load a private key in the wallet.
But if your veo is on an exchange, you need to send them to the wallet
Z
04:24
Z
Ok i will send a few VEO to the generated account and try convert VEO to USD
Z
04:26
Zack
USD how?
the dex requires receiving money in a public way, so oracle reporters can verify that the money has arrived.
You can trade veo to BTC, or to USDC, or to Tether.
Z
04:26
Z
Would i be able to request BUSD or something on bsc?
04:26
In reply to this message
My bad left out a T or a C
Z
04:26
Zack
as long as bsc has a public explorer or some way for oracle reporters to verify that the money was sent
Z
04:29
Z
Ok i have to wait for the VEO to move to the new wallet
04:29
Maybe a revamp of Amoveo.io could help also?
Z
04:30
Zack
I don't have any control of amoveo.io
Z
04:31
Z
Say i post the trade request where would one see it?

So they would just send the BUSD to my wallet and they would receive my VEO?
Z
04:31
Zack
In reply to this message
in the same tab. look near the bottom where it has a refresh button
Z
04:31
Z
In reply to this message
Oh, that’s a but weird, maybe you can make a new shiny website as that one is a bit outdated? Or reach out to them and get stuff updated?
Z
04:32
Zack
In reply to this message
they would accept the offer in the same tab, and there are instructions in that same tab for each step of the process
Z
04:32
Z
In reply to this message
Oh ok, so once posted i would see my order there?
Z
04:32
Zack
In reply to this message
you can get the info from the amoveo github
04:32
In reply to this message
yes
Z
04:32
Z
Oh cool
04:33
So it’s a liquidityless trade / market ?
Z
04:33
Zack
it is an order book.
If you offer 1 veo for 30 tether, then someone with 30 tether could accept that and swap with you.
Z
04:33
Z
Couldn’t you also do a liquidity pool / staking DEX platform?
04:34
In reply to this message
Yep i get it now
Z
04:35
Zack
In reply to this message
you can use the stablecoin tool to make synthetic USD inside of amoveo, and then we can have a uniswap style liquidity pool between VEO and the synthetic USD.
Z
04:41
Z
Oh, that would be interesting
04:42
Any chance you can make the blocks go quicker?
04:42
Or would that require a hard fork or something?
Z
04:44
Zack
the block time is currently set to 11 minutes.
There is a governance mechanism that can change the block time and many other variables that define the protocol.
The governance mechanism works similarly to the oracle.
If you want to start the process of decreasing the block time, the first step is probably to make a futarchy market and show that a quicker block time would be good for the price of VEO.
Z
04:44
Z
Oh, and how do i do a futarchy market?
Z
04:45
Zack
the futarchy tab in wallet.html
04:45
"create futarchy" tab
04:47
updating the block time now is a little difficult, because we would want to simultaneously decrease the block reward per block.
We have a hard update planned out that will add a new governance variable that simultaneously changes the block reward and block time, to keep things in balance.
Z
04:49
Z
Quicker block time would mean a lot more use ability in betting markets
jb
04:49
john blair
In reply to this message
Who controls amoveo dot io
04:49
Should be more info on that page
Z
04:49
Zack
exantech controls it
04:49
I control the amoveo github, I can update the links there.
Z
04:51
Z
There you go, offer made, 1.95VEO for 55BUSD
Z
04:51
Zack
In reply to this message
maybe.
But if we had quicker blocks with smaller rewards, wouldn't you need to wait more confirmations?
jb
04:51
john blair
Alot of basic people don't use github. Are you and exantech on good terms? Maybe they could update it
Z
04:52
Zack
In reply to this message
you don't have to use github to be able to open the amoveo github page and click on links.
jb
04:52
john blair
Fair enough. I meant Joe blow doesn't even think to visit the github website
04:52
You did say amoveo is more of a tech heavy user project so maybe my point is null
Z
04:52
Z
In reply to this message
It’s for the average Joe, a “customer” or “user” expects a “normal” website and apps, stuff that looks familiar
04:53
Personally i never go to a github
jb
04:53
john blair
Exactly
04:53
I'm familiar with it but it's not my favourite at all. Handy, but not preffered
Z
04:53
Z
In reply to this message
I expect to find technical stuff or driver updates there
jb
04:54
john blair
Just my 2 cents anywyas. I do acknowledge your professional opinion is better than my 2 cents though
Z
04:54
Zack
visiting a projects github is simpler than visiting a friend's facebook page. You don't need a github account or any permissions to view a page.
jb
04:54
john blair
I dont disagree, it still doesn't doesn't the affinity of a regular user
04:54
I have friends who are into crypto and have no idea what a github is
Z
04:55
Z
In reply to this message
I’m not disputing that at all, it’s just a marketing / customer experience perspective
jb
04:55
john blair
The more resources for onboarding the better, but I digress. I know you will do what makes sense for you
Z
04:56
Z
One could say that average joe is not an ideal customer, a bit like a fancy club enforces a dress code or requires some kind of membership
Z
04:56
Zack
more resources isn't always better.
Information changes, and then you need to update resources that have expired info.
Z
04:57
Z
In reply to this message
Well, yes that’s the thing, someone who stumbles on VEO now would need to find current and up to date info otherwise might dismiss the project
Z
04:58
Zack
my strategy up to this point is to always link people to amoveo's github, and any other important links go on that github's README.
That way there is only the one list of links that needs to be maintained.
jb
04:58
john blair
In reply to this message
Good point
04:58
In reply to this message
It's worked so far and like you said it's easier to update just one place. I agree with your thinking
Z
04:58
Zack
like the twitter account links directly to the github.
04:59
I think I don't have any links to amoveo.io anywhere
jb
04:59
john blair
Ahh makes sense
05:00
In case you wanted to send him a message
05:01
CEO of Exantech
Z
05:03
Zack
In reply to this message
I can't see this without a linkedin account
05:03
I can contact him, he is on telegram and in this group
05:03
The hardest kind of resource to update is a video.
If you explain how to use an interface using a video, and then part of that interface changes, you basically need to throw out the entire video.
Z
05:05
Z
You don’t necessarily need to do video, my 2 cents is an updated “landing page “ on dot io and a simple re arranging the light node buttons would go a long way
05:06
The website needs to be clear and updated, focus on the new abilities like the order book and betting tool
05:08
The various pages need to look like any ecommerce website, maybe a background color, nice buttons, some thing super simple that gives a reassuring exterior appearance
jb
05:08
john blair
Ease of use makes sure users aren't scared away or turned off. The tech is great but it needs to be able to be adopted. Your a smart person Zach, you do the coding well. It might be beneficial to hire or inquire for someone to manage the ux who is a professional at that.
Z
05:08
Z
If i can get a % I would gladly chip in 💯 😅
05:09
The thing that is underestimated is the betting platform
Z
05:09
Zack
In reply to this message
the bet tab is a lot easier than the old betting experience was
Z
05:13
Z
If the UX is super smooth and simple and maybe one bunch of mates in some pub or office get wind of this…
05:14
Post a few messages on betting forums
05:14
Go to a few discord betting channels
05:14
A few telegram channels
05:16
Is there a way of having true random numbers verified by the oracle?
05:17
As in 100% proof numbers from 0 to 36 are in fact indisputably randomly generated?
Z
05:18
Zack
In reply to this message
you can ask the oracle about a future bitcoin block hash
Z
05:18
Z
So, @ all fellas in channel i have made a order in the book for 55 BUSD in exchange for 1.95 VEO if anyone is interested
05:19
In reply to this message
Can that hash always be a number defined between 0-36 and invalid?
05:19
Would be nice to have an autoroulette mini app
05:20
Or a slot machine
Z
05:20
Zack
In reply to this message
maybe some kind of commit reveal would be better. like a trustless coin flip.
That way it can all happen in one block, you don't have to wait for a bitcoin block to be mined.
05:20
for a slot machine you can do a trustless coin flip with a server that is set up to take any trade where it has expected profit
05:21
maybe some slot machine apps are a good idea. lots of people use slots.
Z
05:21
Z
Just throwing a few ideas out there
Z
05:21
Zack
In reply to this message
yes. that is exactly the kind of first users we need.
Z
05:22
Z
If it is a fair one and is simple to use (and looks and dings like a slot machine) then you could also have a revenue stream for development and UX
05:22
Some people could get lucky and win a good night out, others lose a few dollars
05:23
Must be super transparent and impossible to cheat the odds, you set a 90% payout or whatever
05:25
But yeah for any of this to happen the UX needs a refresher, you could do a website on wixdotcom or whatever
05:26
As it is now it’s not clear how I can bet that next football team will win whatever champions league game or what snooker player wins the whatever cup
Z
05:27
Zack
In reply to this message
did you look at the bet tab?
05:27
it is the very last tab
Z
05:29
Z
Yes
05:29
I am looking at it now
05:29
Do i write in “you win if” ?
05:30
So i could write X team beats Y team in next game on Z date for example?
Z
05:30
Zack
you write something like "The alligators won the football game on November 3rd"
05:30
In reply to this message
yes
Z
05:31
Z
so… you notice now games or apps have “press enter” or “press space” instead of press “any key”?
05:32
It’s because in the old days people would call up technical support and ask where the “any” key was as no key had written “any” on it
mx
05:32
mr x
im trying to make simple betting thing here 157.245.192.181 xD
Z
05:33
Zack
In reply to this message
hahaha
Z
05:33
Z
I may be too dumb to use your product Zack 😅 but if I may suggest swap “1=1” with “formulate your bet here

A hover of the mouse on a ? Next to it would expand and advise a few pointers on how to make a bet
Z
05:34
Zack
In reply to this message
good idea
Z
05:36
Z
So let’s say i put down as bet “Team X beat team Y in tomorrow’s game”

I can put down 10VEO and (insert whatever odds argument) say I ask 30VEO as i give the odds 1-3

Right?
Z
05:37
Zack
if you bet 10, and they bet 30. that implies that there is a 25% chance you will win. 1-3 odds.
Z
05:38
Z
One would find the bet and if they agree the odds are ok in their mind they accept the bet and put 30VEO up right?

Then the oracle resolves the bet and pays the winner right?
Z
05:38
Zack
the bet would appear on this same page at the bottom, when you click the refresh button.
Z
05:38
Z
In “available markets” ?
Z
05:39
Zack
after the bet resolves, the loser should click the button to release the funds.
If they refuse to release, then it becomes necessary to use the oracle.

But you don't need to create the oracle, because the bet tab automatically made an offer to sell your winning shares for 99% of their value.
Anyone with experience in oracles can buy your winning shares, and then make the oracle to get the money out.

So if you won your bet, you can just make a post in this group that you won. and one of us will do it all for you. your balance will just go up.
mx
05:40
mr x
bruh
05:40
check 157.245.192.181
Z
05:40
Z
So, another thing, i would never click on a link like that
jb
05:41
john blair
Yeah me either
05:41
I realize it's just a I.p lookup
Z
05:41
Z
It’s stupid because a webmaster or an owner of a website can see my ip anyway
jb
05:41
john blair
But I don't like dialing in to direct I.ps isn't there like no SSL and all that
Z
05:42
Z
There’s the new .crypto addresses….
05:42
That could be cool
mx
05:44
mr x
trying to do exactly what you describe z there
Z
05:45
Z
You guys should have a sit down, join efforts
jb
05:47
john blair
Decentraweb does TLDs
MF
06:00
Mr Flintstone
In reply to this message
nice
mx
06:01
mr x
yeah somebody clicked the link!
06:05
set mode to advanced in settings to see also 99offers
Z
06:06
Zack
if you are making a web tool, can you put the code on github so we can collaborate?
06:07
but its total mess xD
Z
06:07
Zack
looks like it isn't a public repo?
mx
06:09
mr x
now?
Z
06:10
Zack
reusing the light node code base sure makes a mess doesn't it.
Lots of little js files.

Maybe I need to rethink how I organize the light node.
06:10
at least some of it is in files now
mx
06:10
mr x
and this is based on old version of light node lol
06:11
original idea was to make veo.js library
06:13
also spamming the servers constantly for balances and offers is not so nice
Z
06:14
Zack
is that from my part of the code or your part?
I think you only need to check your balance once per block, or after publishing a tx.
We could probably make an extended delay api that only sends you offers you don't already know about.
mx
06:15
mr x
yes i just want instant feedback for uncofirmed balances also
06:21
but stuff needs rewrite also for reason that i understand wtf is going on
Z
22:21
Zack
thinking about the slot machine app.

There are 2 participants. the house and the player.

The house writes up the trustless coin flip contract, and makes a swap offer to sell it. This swap offer is off-chain, so it is free up to this point.

The player makes a multi-tx that
* accepts the swap offer
* creates the smart contract
* does a contract-evidence tx to choose the odds for their bet, and to choose their entropy.

The house makes a contract evidence tx to reveal the value they had committed to, which allows the contract to choose the winner.
The house makes contract withdraw txs so both the house and the player get their money out of the contract.

This strategy has advantages:
1) it is free to make a slot machine that doesn't have customers.
2) the player only needs to interact once to play. If they go offline at any moment, money wont get stuck anywhere.
Z
22:27
Z
Sounds perfect!

Can it be made so it actually looks like a slot machine?
Z
22:28
Zack
adding a skin and playful sounds isn't too hard. I bet there are existing solutions for that we could copy.
Z
22:30
Z
For sure
Z
22:34
Zack
I think we can make the slot machine playable, and it pays out veo to winners, all in a single block.

The worry is that a mining pool would play the game, and revert a block to re-roll their randomness.
But we can add a clause to the smart contract, so that if anyone besides the house is providing the evidence, there is a 20 block delay for counter-evidence.
And as counter-evidence, if the house can show that you did a reroll, by selecting 2 different random numbers to play, then you lose the bet, and you lose a little extra money to cover tx fees.
26 October 2021
Z
01:52
Z
In reply to this message
If a mining pool plays the game… all the better because the house always wins and some random guy could have a really really lucky spin
01:53
As long as submission/entry/spin = payment then it should be fine, no?
01:54
Could be a shiny showcase project to show people what can be done with VEO, other programmers could run across it and adapt it or make other games on their platforms maybe
01:54
But please let’s not forget about the website/landing page/ new user onboarding experience
27 October 2021
you you invited you you
Z
18:29
Zack
People were saying recently that it isn't possible to get the Amoveo FPGA mining bitstream. But isn't this the download link? https://github.com/dedmarozz/Amoveo-VCU1525-FPGA-Miner/releases
I don't have an FPGA to test it out.
18:33
https://github.com/dedmarozz?tab=repositories
Looks like this person made 5 different Amoveo bitstreams for different FPGA
18:33
so we support different kinds of FPGA mining
18:34
and this is already in the README in the main Amoveo github.
Z
22:18
Z
I regularly mine VEO with FPGA
22:18
Blackminer F2
28 October 2021
Z
04:15
Z
Hey Zack, i checked and can’t find the book order for the veo i was trying to swap
04:19
Damn, I think I even lost the key to the simple wallet 🤦🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️
04:19
Ah found it, lol, all good
04:20
Ah the balance is refunded :-( too bad no trade
04:20
Anyone want to buy 2 VEO for anything? Will swap for any BSC coin
18:24
this website swapzone aggregates trades and gives you the best ones ranked by rate and time for swap
18:26
the fastest swap i know of on here is like 5 minutes but i the dex should be able to do it much faster. it is basically limited by the slowest confirmation time of the 2 or 3 chains
18:27
and the rate should be a bit better but not significantly
18:28
so it might be possible to have amoveo at the top of the list for trades
Z
18:28
Zack
you might want to wait for confirmations though
18:28
In reply to this message
that sounds like a good plan
18:29
once we reach some kind of equilibrium, and the other dexs stop subsidizing, Amoveo should be a lot cheaper than the other options.
30 October 2021
Jason Kwang invited Jason Kwang
Z
18:15
Zack
There is this card game called "goofspiel" that is resistant to AI.
It seems like a candidate for a p2p gambling game.
Mr Zookta invited Mr Zookta
Z
18:59
Z
In reply to this message
Slot machines and card games! Amazing, could be yet another use case for VEO
31 October 2021
Z
00:35
Z
Hey Zack

Could you help me develop a modified bitstream for a FPGA?

The end benefit is that it could lower the number of miners mining VEO
Z
00:52
Zack
In reply to this message
Yeah, i want to help. I dont know much about it still.
But i did write the miner in c, maybe i can help.
Z
01:26
Zack
In order to have access to banking, I set up a llc in usa. but for that llc to open a bank account, they want me to have US based customers.
And the llc, it specifically cannot earn profit from either gambling, or from selling cryptocurrency.
So I am setting up a server for playing goofspiel.

I don't want this project to be a total waste.
I am reusing libraries from the light node.
I am exploring a different way of logging onto the light node, based on remembering a password instead of storing a private key file. I choose goofspiel because it could be a good game for gambling with amoveo, because of the AI resistance.
I am exploring ways to integrate reactive programming technique with the light node library, for a smoother user experience.

Here is my progress so far.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/goofspiel
Z
02:57
Z
In reply to this message
Yes, banking / making it legit would be bureaucratically a burden with gambling involved
OK
07:10
O K
The LLC can't sell cryptocurrency because of the bank rules?
Z
08:35
Zack
In reply to this message
Right. It needs some other business activity.
14:12
An atack on ethereum pos you may want to read about
Morgan Josh invited Morgan Josh
1 November 2021
Z
16:32
Zack
I was looking into setting up a domain for this goofspiel server.
It seems like the domain name system is really bad. Like, if leaving your coins on an exchange is bad, then your typical DNS registrar is worse.
It seems like what is expected in this industry is that they want to be able to pull money from your bank account if you break a rule, and they have the ability to change the rules without warning. If you break a rule, they can confiscate your domain. As a customer, you don't have any rights.

The entire domain name system is under the control of a US government organization called ICANN. The US gov can and does confiscate domain names, and cause problems for domain registrars who don't follow their rules.

Has anyone made a good blockchain domain name system yet?

It seems like a harberger system could work, but the tax rate should be somehow related to the number of characters in the domain.
Maybe we can assign characters scrabble scores too.
What we want is for short domains, like "a" or "x" to have a high tax rate. Maybe 10%.
And for long domains, like "AmoveoMerchandise" to have a low tax rate. like 0.01%

So for a long domain name, you can pay a $10 per year fee, and it would cost someone $100 000 in order to confiscate your domain, and you can keep the $100k as compensation for losing the domain. A lower tax rate means it is cheaper to get a domain name that is very secure from being taken from you.

A major problem with domain registry systems is squatters.
People who buy domains just to sell them for more later.
Squatters are a big drag on the system, wasting lots of value without providing any benefit.
A higher tax rate means it is more expensive for squatters.
If the tax rate is 1%, and squatters only manage to sell 1% of the domains that they are squatting on, then the squatters only break even. No profit.
When choosing the tax rate for different sized URLs, what we are trying to do is provide balanced protection against squatters.
Squatters can more easily buy up all the 1-letter domains, since there are only ~30 of them.
3-letter domains are harder, there are 27000.

Maybe we should use a compression algorithm that was pre-trained on a big list of words that are more common in titles. And charge by the number of bytes in the compressed version of the domain. so "the.meme.store" would have the same tax rate as "yzv".
It would be tough to incorporate more languages besides english, and update the system to account for changes in culture.
Having a big pre-trained compression algorithm inside the source of a deterministic blockchain, it seems like that would make it hard to maintain or translate the blockchain to a different programming language.
16:41
Maybe the compression algorithm could build itself, by noticing patterns in the domains that have been registered.

So if you start out owning "amoveo.store", it could initially have a very low tax rate. It is 12 characters.
But if many other people start buying domains like "amoveo.X" or "Y.store", then eventually your tax rate goes up, because the blockchain realized that you are in a popular slice of the space of domains.

This would be resistant to being attacked, because the attacker would need to buy up many domains to attack one domain, and all the domains that the attacker owns, they are increasing in their tax rate the same as the domain being attacked.
So manipulating the tax rate would be far more expensive for the attacker than the defender.
R
16:48
Ric
There’s ENS, which is fine. And I think the CKB guys have a domain name system too. Probably others.
Agreed that the current registrar system isn’t great, but it works and is pretty much always ok. Doesn’t seem like a great problem to solve here imo
Z
16:49
Zack
Maybe it could be really simple.
Like for every 2 characters, we calculate the probability of what the next character will be.
So the database is only ~30*30*30 = 27000 values, but it would be able to compress domains by up to a factor of 3, if they use common words.

If each value in the database is 1 byte, and the alphabet has N characters, and we want to calculate based on M adjacent characters. the database is N^M bytes.
if the alphabet has 27 letters, and we look at 4 adjacent characters to predict the next, that is 14 megabytes.
17:00
In reply to this message
I can't find anything from ckb.
The ethereum one, it looks like a flat cost per layer in a hierarchy.

It is like they went with our compression idea, but instead of using 1 byte to encode a phoneme, they are using an entirely separate smart contract. So the compression algorithm is smeared out across possibly hundreds of thousands of parallel smart contracts eventually, each with it's own customized rules about how domains are transferred.
17:13
Looks like IPFS has a name system
Z
21:54
Zack
http://46.101.185.98:8001/introduction.html I set up a goofspiel server.
21:55
it uses an alternative way of logging in and controlling the private key in comparison to how the light node does it currently.
21:59
goofspiel shows a lot of potential as an online gambling game, because it is resistant to AI.
mx
22:22
mr x
time ran out
22:22
what do i win?
22:23
how is it ai resistant? have some gto mixed strategy and simpler than poker?
Z
22:24
Zack
any strategy has a better counter-strategy. given an AI program, you can write another that will beat it.
22:24
wanna try again? ill make another offer
mx
22:25
mr x
there is mixed strat you cannot beat even if you know it??
Z
22:25
Zack
it isn't a completely understood game yet, but it seems like you couldn't make an ai for it
22:27
I made a new offer
mx
22:30
mr x
hshsh
22:30
haha
Z
22:30
Zack
I lost
mx
22:31
mr x
that was intense
22:31
gave you the 13
Z
22:31
Zack
it is a tough game. Im not sure if it is based on luck or skill
mx
22:31
mr x
both
Z
22:31
Zack
I guess I don't have either, I lose all the time haha
mx
22:31
mr x
same as poker
22:32
unexloitable mixed strategy exists
22:32
shouldn't be too hard to find and approximation for it
Z
22:32
Zack
someone made a paper about it. they had a computer that kept playing itself and updating it's strategy until it settled on a nash equilibrium.
mx
22:32
mr x
yes
Z
22:33
Zack
but I think someone else then made a strategy that beats that equilibrium
mx
22:33
mr x
or they should just show their strategy for free to an opponent that plays optimally against it
Z
22:33
Zack
it is like, a local equilibrium, not global
mx
22:33
mr x
and choose strategy that loses the least
22:33
yeah but seems simpler than poker
Z
22:34
Zack
it is a quick game. I think it gives that quick feedback that gamblers like
mx
22:35
mr x
yea but it has not big enough luck element
22:35
game itself has no randomness
Z
22:36
Zack
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261266923_Observations_on_strategies_for_Goofspiel
This paper says they haven't found the best strategy
mx
22:36
mr x
or yea it has
Z
22:36
Zack
the order of prize cards is random
mx
22:36
mr x
yes
22:43
ouch
Z
22:44
Zack
playing the 4 on the 10 was really good. I overpaid by a lot
mx
22:44
mr x
yea
22:44
but that one was pure dum
Z
22:44
Zack
I think it needs to show what the other player played in the most recent round.
mx
22:45
mr x
ya
22:46
what
22:48
ahhahahaah
Z
22:48
Zack
by only 1 point
mx
22:48
mr x
miracle come back
2 November 2021
CM
04:24
Charles Maurice
someone didn't play their card after I accepted their game; round didn't complete, game didn't continue
Z
17:45
Zack
Private oracles scare me.
But it seems like they are inevitable.
The oracle is cheaper with private oracles, so a blockchain that supports them will win against one that does not.

The advantage of private oracles is that people looking at your smart contract, they don't know which oracle it is connected to.

If we didn't have private oracles, someone could notice that a smart contract worth 1000 VEO is connected to a particular oracle.
That means they could temporarily freeze the 1000 veo by paying a little money to make a bad oracle report. This adds extra cost to use the oracle system.
3 November 2021
Amanda Espinoza invited Amanda Espinoza
OK
20:16
O K
Good explanation on why you think they are necessary Why do you think they are scary?
Z
20:32
Zack
In reply to this message
Necessary because it reduces cost. So a blockchain with this feature would outcompete a blockchain without.

Scary because it allows anonymous people to cooperate.

My nightmare scenario is something like the slaughterbots video on youtube.

A key limitation stopping slaughterbots from existing is that the people with skills at robots have trouble cooperating with the people who could benefit from violence.
20:39
For the private oracle we need to blind the list of values we are reading from, mix them up, and then unblind one of them. This lets us to use one of the oracle results without revealing which one we are using.

The participants in the contract can unblind the rest of the values too, so they know which oracle is doing the enforcement.

It looks like the way to do this is called a rank 1 constraint system, or r1sc.

We write the mixer program, then convert it to r1sc. Then we can convert it to the inner product argument, which can then become a small bullet proof that gives us the oracle result without telling us which oracle we read from.
20:42
It looks like making and verifying these proofs will be very fast.
The database of oracle results will need to look a little different from the other verkle trees.
Becuase it is important we dont store the oracle id with the oracle result.

An issue is that these proofs cant be updated when full nodes update the oracle tree. So full nodes need to be aware of all old roots of the oracle tree.
An easy fix is to stuff all those roots into a normal verkle tree.

So a proof of an oracle result has 1) a verkle proof of an oracle tree root and 2) an encrypted opening of one oracle result from that oracle tree root.
20:43
All these proofs can be compressed to a single bulletproof. It looks like we will only have one bullet proof per block.
4 November 2021
Juliette meyer invited Juliette meyer
MC
22:40
Mr Crypto
What is the status @zack_amoveo
22:40
Like where are we in the project?
Z
22:45
Zack
Currently im doing an investigation of the technology behind verkle trees.

This tech is important for amoveo in 2 respects.
First off, it will allow us to use oracle results to enforce a smart contract, without revealing which oracle we are reading from. This will make the oracle more secure and cheaper and improve privacy.

Secondly, this tech will allow us to replace merkle proofs with something much smaller.

Amoveo is the only stateless full node blockchain currently. It seems like stateless full nodes are going to be necessary for all blockchains in the future, because it is more scalable.
The limitation with stateless full nodes is that the merkle proofs we currently need to include are so big.
They make our transactions something like 20-fold bigger than necessary.

In order to stay competitive as a stateless full node blockchain, we need to be on top of this new verkle tree technology.
22:46
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/homomorphic-tools/blob/master/pedersen.erl
I got bullet proofs and inner product arguments working here.
22:47
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/homomorphic-tools/blob/master/r1cs.erl
I have notes about rank-1 constraint systems, as well as some basic formulas over polynomials working here.