This is the main website with lots of links to learn about Amoveo.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo
Feel free to ask questions about Amoveo here
Amoveo ♥🧿
26 January 2018
Amoveo ♥🧿 converted a basic group to this supergroup «Amoveo 2»
Z
06:12
Zack
Zack pinned this message
06:18
Deleted Account
Ok Zack is there any easy task where you would need help?
Z
06:20
Zack
What is your skillset?
I am trying to immigrate to a jurisdiction where Amoveo will be more tolerated. If you have skills related to this, it would help me a lot.
you could read some of the docs and tell me what is confusing, and what should be removed.
You could rename variables in the code to make it easier to read.
I am trying to immigrate to a jurisdiction where Amoveo will be more tolerated. If you have skills related to this, it would help me a lot.
you could read some of the docs and tell me what is confusing, and what should be removed.
You could rename variables in the code to make it easier to read.
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06:21
Deleted Account
Fellow c++ and Java programmer but with no Blockchain experience
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06:22
Deleted Account
Ok will try to do that andmaybe in the meantime learn some erlang
Z
06:25
Zack
http://learnyousomeerlang.com/content
I learned erlang from this website. I think it is good.
I learned erlang from this website. I think it is good.
06:26
Deleted Account
Thanks will have a look
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KS
06:29
K Sq
Zack being organized is certainly not one of your virtues
06:29
:)
Z
06:29
Zack
Here is the book I learned Forth from.
https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/1-forth-stacks-dictionary/
The smart contract language in Amoveo is similar to this.
https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/1-forth-stacks-dictionary/
The smart contract language in Amoveo is similar to this.
KS
06:30
K Sq
But hoping the project will take on a life of its own with you as benevolent dictator for life BDFL
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06:31
Deleted Account
Is there any reason why you chose erlang vs elixir? I suspect robustness...
KS
06:31
K Sq
I initially invested in Aeternity because you were involved . Sold for a profit and now patiently waiting for you to deliver
06:31
Been following you since the Augur days.
Z
KS
06:32
K Sq
I can see that you’ve got an emphasis on perfection vs scrappiness. Good for a blockchain.
06:32
I’m sick of people taking advantage of your dev skills
06:32
And giving nothing in return.
Z
06:32
Zack
In reply to this message
I originally wrote it in Elixir over 2 years ago. I switched to erlang because I was spending all my time reading erlang documentation and trying to translate it to run in elixir.
Maybe now that elixir is more developed I wouldn't have this problem.
Maybe now that elixir is more developed I wouldn't have this problem.
KS
06:33
K Sq
I’m hoping you ship this and we don’t spend much time refining testnet.
Z
06:34
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes, you are right. perfect is the enemy of good. This is the attitude I should have.
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KS
06:35
K Sq
Be willing to hard fork to fix problems quick. Get this out the door taking advantage of the bull market we are in.
06:35
We all believe in you and want to see this succeed.
G
06:36
Gonzalo
Hi all! Zack mining is not working on light node, any idea? (Chrome on Win7 64b)
Z
06:37
Zack
In reply to this message
I switched from Elixir to Erlang in July 2015, at that time the project was called "Flying Fox".
06:38
In reply to this message
Yes, there are some problems with the mining pool. I will fix it soon.
G
06:38
Gonzalo
Ok thanks
CB
06:38
CeloStarter Bandits
its this still testnet
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Z
06:38
Zack
In reply to this message
yes. I will give at least 2 weeks warning before we launch the main net.
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CB
06:39
CeloStarter Bandits
will you do an ICO.. or some premine and start
06:39
Deleted Account
Is there a way to interact with amoveo chain using json rpc?
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Z
06:42
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes. And all the integration tests are done this way. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/tree/master/tests
And here is an example from the command line:
curl -i -d '[-6,"test"]' http://localhost:3011
And here is an example from the command line:
curl -i -d '[-6,"test"]' http://localhost:3011
M
06:44
Monk
Hey, Zack, what kind of immigration help are you looking for? I am based in Switzerland, near the fabled Crypto Valley (for what it's worth), so if you are considering moving to our little country, I might be able to help with basic stuff like navigating immigration law (if at all possible), getting you set up. Not a lawyer or anything, but helped a few people relocate for my old company.
CB
06:45
CeloStarter Bandits
Zack. Barbados.. Cayman Island .. Dubai.. Switzerland... is not so free as you think
M
06:45
Monk
Can confirm, we have lawyers here too :)
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Z
06:49
Zack
In reply to this message
I already did a lot of the work in a country in the Americas. so unless there is some big advantage to switching, I probably wont.
CB
06:49
CeloStarter Bandits
at the end Zack.. Release the code. Premine .. 1-2 Million for your and your future development.. and let it off. Dont do a ICO... its 100 percentage chance you will get arrested in 1-2 years if you try to fly into USA.
06:50
and so many countries gearing up to sue all kind of ICOs..
Z
06:50
Zack
In reply to this message
The plan is to have no ICO, and no premine.
A fraction of every block reward will go to me, and the community can change how much I get paid at any time.
I will be unable to access the money for the first 6 months, so unless I can keep the blockchain alive that long, I wont get paid at all.
A fraction of every block reward will go to me, and the community can change how much I get paid at any time.
I will be unable to access the money for the first 6 months, so unless I can keep the blockchain alive that long, I wont get paid at all.
CB
06:52
CeloStarter Bandits
Wow... but Zack can we approve that you should get premine.. 😀
06:52
but thats sounds very fair
06:52
and really outstanding approach
M
06:52
Monk
Zack winters here are nasty. DM me anytime if you change your mind or just need information. Have been following the project for a while and am happy to help if I can. Regulatory environment here is generally favorable, but nothing set in stone either.
Z
06:53
Zack
In reply to this message
If I get a premine, then it would come with the obligation to deliver in the future. This is a form of debt.
Debt is centralized, and cannot be enforced by a blockchain.
I would rather get paid a wage, that way I own all the money I get paid without any obligations, and it is decentralized.
Debt is centralized, and cannot be enforced by a blockchain.
I would rather get paid a wage, that way I own all the money I get paid without any obligations, and it is decentralized.
CB
06:54
CeloStarter Bandits
zack.. thats a real good approach.. was was the latest eta for mainnet launch April?
06:55
need to set an alarm on my calender
06:55
😀
Z
06:55
Zack
In reply to this message
I do plan on spending a significant portion of time in that part of the world over the next few years, even if I will not live there. There are lots of opportunities to teach people about Amoveo there.
06:56
In reply to this message
The goal is to launch before the end of April, but we might be ready sooner.
I will give at least 2 weeks warning before we launch, so as long as you visit telegram or twitter or reddit more often than once every 2 weeks, you will be fine.
I will give at least 2 weeks warning before we launch, so as long as you visit telegram or twitter or reddit more often than once every 2 weeks, you will be fine.
M
06:58
Monk
Happy to hear that, hope to have a chance to meet you on one of these occasions.
Z
CB
06:58
CeloStarter Bandits
ok.. ty Zack.
07:01
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Does this wage go only to you or other devs if any can also get rewarded?
G
Z
07:04
Zack
In reply to this message
The plan is to transition to using insured crowdfunding to pay developers as soon as possible.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/use-cases-and-ideas/insured_crowdfund.md
So once insured crowdfunding is working well, then we can set my wage to zero. and pay me with insured crowdfunding instead.
A developer reward has some benefits for starting off:
1) in the beginning there wont be enough money to make an insured crowdfunding market.
2) the tools for insured crowdfunding are not developed yet, so it would be too hard for most users to do this at the beginning.
3) With insured crowdfunding I would get paid too fast. We want my pay to be locked up for 6 months, this way I have an incentive to keep Amoveo running that long.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/use-cases-and-ideas/insured_crowdfund.md
So once insured crowdfunding is working well, then we can set my wage to zero. and pay me with insured crowdfunding instead.
A developer reward has some benefits for starting off:
1) in the beginning there wont be enough money to make an insured crowdfunding market.
2) the tools for insured crowdfunding are not developed yet, so it would be too hard for most users to do this at the beginning.
3) With insured crowdfunding I would get paid too fast. We want my pay to be locked up for 6 months, this way I have an incentive to keep Amoveo running that long.
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l两
09:35
lwvwlcn 两万.Leon
hi zack
09:36
Can I buy amo on any exchange?
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MH
10:54
Mandel Hoff
Any idea how many miners were running today? Blocks were racking up really fast for a few hours.
Z
10:57
Zack
In reply to this message
I think a fast computer can find a block every minute at the current difficulty. So it looks like one person was mining for 4 hours.
MH
11:06
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
Diff is 0x1934. Is that 1 in 593920 hash? 2^19 ×(256+34)/256
Z
11:09
Zack
The math looks right to me.
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MH
11:12
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
Must have more bugs in my miner then. I added metrics and thought I was running 2mh/s. I was no where near 1 block per min.
Z
11:29
Zack
oh, I guess there was an extra factor of 2^6 somewhere.
We should probably make it a factor of 2^25 instead, to maximize how much we can grow.
Ill write a note for the next hard fork.
We should probably make it a factor of 2^25 instead, to maximize how much we can grow.
Ill write a note for the next hard fork.
MH
11:31
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
Yes the 0x19 is 25 decimal which becomes the 2^25 part. My first Calc didn't do that.
Z
11:32
Zack
oh right, converting hex to decimal.
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C
13:25
Caliban
We are forking the chatroom already?
13:26
:)
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T
16:03
Tudor
Hello Zack !
Have you taken into account the idea of making an Airdrop (with amoveo )for the Ae holders that have bought in Ico, because they knew that you are the dev? 😄
Have you taken into account the idea of making an Airdrop (with amoveo )for the Ae holders that have bought in Ico, because they knew that you are the dev? 😄
ac
16:07
alex c
Well I ditched all my AE tokens when I found out Zack left.
T
16:10
Tudor
In reply to this message
I haven't done anything... just hold... they're already at third dev. Now let's see how long this one holds up!😜
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G
17:49
Gonzalo
I also sold my stinky AE tokens weeks ago 🙊
Z
18:35
Zack
In reply to this message
There will be no air drop of amoveo. We will distribute by mining only.
P
18:40
Pan
Hi, Zack:
Does Amoveo Channel need routing network as LN of BTC?
As to me, it's very difficult to build a decentralized routing system. Do you agree?
Does Amoveo Channel need routing network as LN of BTC?
As to me, it's very difficult to build a decentralized routing system. Do you agree?
Z
18:47
Zack
In reply to this message
If you want to participate in a particular market, then make a channel with the server that runs the market.
If you want to make regular payments to someone, then you either both need to have a channel with the same node, or you need to have a clear and stable path between the nodes you do have channels on.
When you form a chanel, the channel node will give you information about which other nodes you will have payment access to.
If you want to make regular payments to someone, then you either both need to have a channel with the same node, or you need to have a clear and stable path between the nodes you do have channels on.
When you form a chanel, the channel node will give you information about which other nodes you will have payment access to.
18:48
So we do not have to solve the decentralized routing problem. Amoveo is useful without a solution to that problem.
P
19:00
Pan
So, do we need a global map to determine a path to each address in channels? or need to request the path from other nodes? or just let the transactions flow among nodes to auto find the path.
Am I asking a valid question?
Am I asking a valid question?
Z
19:04
Zack
In reply to this message
Amoveo is a tool for markets. Yes, payments are also possible, but that is not it's primary purpose.
So it isn't important whether we solve this routing problem or not.
So it isn't important whether we solve this routing problem or not.
19:05
If you want to participate in a market, then make a channel with the server running that market.
Simple as can be.
Simple as can be.
T
19:11
Tudor
In reply to this message
Understood and agreed!
You'll give us a tutorial on how we can mine using Vultr Vps for example?
I do this on my behalf and on behalf of those who have good will but are not very expert in the field...🤓
You'll give us a tutorial on how we can mine using Vultr Vps for example?
I do this on my behalf and on behalf of those who have good will but are not very expert in the field...🤓
Z
19:12
Zack
In reply to this message
vultr vps is for renting servers. Yes I will make a mining tutorial before the main net launch for using these kinds of services.
P
19:13
Pan
Ok,that's much clear, I will go forward to understand your work.
Thank you, Zack
Thank you, Zack
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20:20
Deleted Account
Zach, in eth you can create a smart contract on chain, here you cant?
20:20
Am i right in assuming it is only inside channels?
Z
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22:31
Deleted Account
I love the Amoveo use case about the Weinstein problem 😂
22:31
Very creative. So many people lack imagination about what systems may be able to accomplish in the future.
Z
22:33
Zack
In reply to this message
Thanks. If you like this article, you should read stuff Paul Sztorc wrote for Bitcoin Hivemind.
22:34
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Thanks for the recommendation, I’ll check that out. I love imagining what is possible through markets.
22:45
In reply to this message
What does Amoveo mean? I remember you explained it somewhere but I have not been able to find it.
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MH
23:18
Mandel Hoff
Currently any Linux cpu with erlang. As low as single cpu would work currently
Z
23:21
In reply to this message
You would be able to mine 4x faster.
If you were running a market, you would be able to process orders more quickly.
You would be able to facilitate lightning payments more quickly.
If you were running a market, you would be able to process orders more quickly.
You would be able to facilitate lightning payments more quickly.
23:23
Deleted Account
Hi guys
23:24
Zack you made a great decision by leaving aeternity, I sold all of it.
23:24
They wont achieve anything without you anyway, they just copy you
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27 January 2018
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P
01:50
Pan
Zack,
Do we need a public IP for solo mining?
Do we need a public IP for solo mining?
MH
01:54
Mandel Hoff
Currently, yes.
Your pool node wont stay synced with the network otherwise.
Your pool node wont stay synced with the network otherwise.
01:55
You can mine but your found blocks will not be known to other nodes.
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M
Z
06:45
Zack
I fixed the issue where we were deleting all the databases every time we rebooted.
Now you remember all the blocks, so you don't have to re-sync every time you turn on Amoveo.
But, I accidentally deleted all the blocks. So the testnet is starting over from height 0.
Now you remember all the blocks, so you don't have to re-sync every time you turn on Amoveo.
But, I accidentally deleted all the blocks. So the testnet is starting over from height 0.
06:46
I fixed mining with the public mining pool. I tested it with a C miner.
G
06:58
Gonzalo
Nice! 👍
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MH
07:15
Mandel Hoff
Is there a reason your node didn't sync with mine and get the blocks?
Z
07:16
oh, the blocks are deleted
MH
07:16
Mandel Hoff
Your node height is back to 0. Yes.
Z
07:16
Zack
if you still have them, then you should be able to share them to the network and bring us back up to 700
MH
07:17
Mandel Hoff
Yes. How? You just need my ip to add to peers?
Z
07:17
Zack
just do
sync:start().
MH
07:18
Mandel Hoff
Ok. Doing that in about 5 sec now
Z
07:18
Zack
I accidentally deleted the list of peers at the same time that I had deleted the blocks. So my node doesn't know your node's ip address any more.
07:19
We should probably hard code a dozen nodes into the source code. That way you have lots of places to download the list of peers from.
MH
07:19
Mandel Hoff
Talk helper weird response and fail
07:19
Will log github issue with screenshot
Z
07:19
Zack
yeah, it looks like you gave me the first 12, and then something went weird
07:20
oh, now you gave up to 21
07:20
you shared your ip address, so now my node can pull the blocks. which is working correctly.
MH
07:21
Mandel Hoff
Ok. No github issue needed then
Z
07:22
Zack
It looks like garbage collection created a problem where we can't push too many blocks at once.
I think maybe the block_absorber gen_server and the tree_data gen_servers should be combined.
I think maybe the block_absorber gen_server and the tree_data gen_servers should be combined.
MH
07:22
Mandel Hoff
Nice. Light wallet shows back to block 733. 👍
Z
07:22
Zack
great
MH
07:23
Mandel Hoff
Decentralized! 😆
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19:42
Deleted Account
do you guys know rchain, it seems another clone of zack's idea
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Z
21:29
Zack
Amoveo uses turing complete smart contracts inside of channels. Amoveo has an oracle system and governance system.
As far as I can tell, Rchain does not share any of these goals.
Rchain makes lots of big promises, but I can't find any plan on how they intend to achieve their goals.
As far as I can tell, Rchain does not share any of these goals.
Rchain makes lots of big promises, but I can't find any plan on how they intend to achieve their goals.
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28 January 2018
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00:19
Deleted Account
Hi, happy to be here!
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MH
01:28
Mandel Hoff
Zack, are there any markets or betting systems set up to join and test? I started reading the contracts but I don't grasp it well enough to deploy yet.
Z
01:30
Zack
I don't have any set up right now. Ill make one for you to test. Anything in particular you want to bet on?
01:30
oh.. I lost the private key for the master account for the testnet.
MH
01:30
Mandel Hoff
😱
Z
01:30
Zack
maybe you can send me some money
MH
01:31
Mandel Hoff
Anything is fine. Something funny or fictitious sounds fun.
01:31
Won't be home for about 6 hours. Will send funds then
What wallet need funds? How much needed?
What wallet need funds? How much needed?
Z
01:32
Zack
Ill just mine some blocks then
MH
01:37
Mandel Hoff
No rush
I might not get to it until Monday
I might not get to it until Monday
Z
01:38
Zack
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/tests/market.py
This is an example of making a market and betting in the market and settling the market etc.
I am in the process of rewriting this stuff all in javascript for the light node.
This is an example of making a market and betting in the market and settling the market etc.
I am in the process of rewriting this stuff all in javascript for the light node.
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Z
01:42
:)
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Z
07:18
Zack
In reply to this message
I made a mistake. I left part of the market tests commented out, so I didn't notice when I changed the code and markets stopped working.
So it might take me a few days to get markets working again.
So it might take me a few days to get markets working again.
MH
08:54
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
No problem at all. Let me know when I can test it out please.
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18:32
Deleted Account
Wow, i cant believe i have found this community at an early stage. This will huge
18:35
Will there be an ICO?
Z
18:37
Deleted Account
Dont you think this way it may take a few years before u hit mainstream popularity?
Z
18:38
Zack
In reply to this message
Our current plan is ideal for growth.
Amoveo has a governance mechanism, so we can update the block reward at any time.
This means we can grow as fast as we need.
Amoveo has a governance mechanism, so we can update the block reward at any time.
This means we can grow as fast as we need.
18:39
Deleted Account
Cool
C
18:39
Caliban
Zack, will there be other ways of participating besides mining? Eg staking or masternodes
Z
18:45
Zack
In reply to this message
We will do something somewhat similar to staking/masternodes.
You can operate a server to run a market for a smart contract. So people who want to use the smart contract will pay you to use your server to connect to other users who want to be on the other side of the smart contract.
Some example smart contracts I am expecting to be popular: lightning payments, gambling on sports, betting on stocks/commodities, blackjack, crowdfunding, prediction markets.
Operating a server like this involves locking your money onto the server.
This is similar to staking in that you lock up money and get paid.
This is different from staking in that you are providing a real service to the network, and you get paid in proportion to how many customers you satisfy.
You can operate a server to run a market for a smart contract. So people who want to use the smart contract will pay you to use your server to connect to other users who want to be on the other side of the smart contract.
Some example smart contracts I am expecting to be popular: lightning payments, gambling on sports, betting on stocks/commodities, blackjack, crowdfunding, prediction markets.
Operating a server like this involves locking your money onto the server.
This is similar to staking in that you lock up money and get paid.
This is different from staking in that you are providing a real service to the network, and you get paid in proportion to how many customers you satisfy.
C
18:47
Caliban
Sounds good! On the mining front, how difficult is it to setup for non techies? Could there be a scenario where normal folks can't compete against well funded miners akin to BTC or ETH
Z
18:53
Zack
In reply to this message
You are confused.
It is economically preferable to have specialists. Some people specialize on gathering trees. Different people specialize in cutting logs into wood. And different people specialize in assembling the wood into a house.
For the same reason it is better to pay a specialists for your house, it is also better to pay specialists to mine.
It is economically preferable to have specialists. Some people specialize on gathering trees. Different people specialize in cutting logs into wood. And different people specialize in assembling the wood into a house.
For the same reason it is better to pay a specialists for your house, it is also better to pay specialists to mine.
18:56
You wouldn't gather clay from the earth to manufacture your own plates and cups. It is best to leave this to people who have equipment. This way we can produce many more plates for less cost.
Similarly, it wouldn't make sense for a person to mine their own tokens.
It is better to pay someone who has the equipment. This way the market cap can grow much faster for less cost in electricity/hardware.
Similarly, it wouldn't make sense for a person to mine their own tokens.
It is better to pay someone who has the equipment. This way the market cap can grow much faster for less cost in electricity/hardware.
C
19:01
Caliban
I understand specialism and people have different skillsets. But people don't learn if they stay within their areas or what people deem other people's areas or skills. To be more precise, my question was around the learning curve of mining. If its steep and involves deep tech skills and complex specialist equipment then that's a personal decision by myself on whether I want to get involved or not
Z
19:09
Zack
In reply to this message
I use economics and game theory to build Amoveo.
If I had to make a choice between either 1) having a mathematically optimal blockchain VS 2) having JD involved.
I would pick (1) every time.
If I had to make a choice between either 1) having a mathematically optimal blockchain VS 2) having JD involved.
I would pick (1) every time.
C
19:10
Caliban
They aren't mutually exclusive though? You don't know anything about me?
Z
19:10
Zack
Amoveo isn't a get-rich-quick scheme.
I am am not going to sacrifice the security to help early investors like JD get rich.
I am am not going to sacrifice the security to help early investors like JD get rich.
C
19:11
Caliban
I'm not trying to get rich, I'm trying to understand the technology to see if I can get involved in a project in its infancy?
19:12
I followed you from aeternity and how they treated you sounded disgusting. I wanted to support your project
Z
19:14
Zack
Being a miner is difficult.
Unless you are one of the best, then you will be losing money.
Any other design would be worse.
Unless you are one of the best, then you will be losing money.
Any other design would be worse.
19:22
Deleted Account
i'm excited to setup ryzen computers for this :)
Z
19:27
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
JD, I feel you're misunderstanding what Zack said. It's a comment not about preferences, but economics.
RL
19:28
R L
Zacks work right now is not profitable
19:29
So like I said.. there will be opportunity to invest.. even if you aren't a big league miner
19:29
Deleted Account
zach, will you be setting up a company or a foundation?
Z
19:29
Zack
In reply to this message
I imagine a miner would have some customers lined up before they start mining.
Because the miner probably doesn't want to invest in Amoveo.
This way we start with big league miners from day 1.
Because the miner probably doesn't want to invest in Amoveo.
This way we start with big league miners from day 1.
RL
19:30
R L
And what will the customers be buying?
C
19:30
Caliban
Well as I said it's less about investing (as I can just buy the coins when they are available) but more about other parts of the project I could have potentially participated in
19:30
Deleted Account
the mined coins
RL
19:30
R L
I imagine miners could take money before they mine a single unit
19:31
In fact I can launch an erc20 token tomorrow to fund amoveo mining
19:31
So lots of opportunities for little guys
Z
19:32
Zack
In reply to this message
No.
I will probably make a company for protecting myself when I run a server for markets and lightning payments. But it wouldn't be a company for Amoveo, just a company for one server.
I will probably make a company for protecting myself when I run a server for markets and lightning payments. But it wouldn't be a company for Amoveo, just a company for one server.
RL
19:32
R L
Amoveo is part of a larger open game
19:32
No one is bound to whatever system you may believe protects it
Z
19:33
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes. In fact my family gave me some money telling me to use it to pay miners to get VEO for them.
So it already started.
So it already started.
19:35
Deleted Account
zach, are you familiar with hashgraph? what can you say about it?
RL
19:36
Could be an amoveo ico afterall
19:38
Anyway, JD I think you should keep your eyes open for a mining pool. The cheapest coins will most likely be mined at the start
C
19:39
Caliban
Thanks, will keep an eye out along with any relevant documentation on Github
Z
19:40
Zack
In reply to this message
From my brief analysis, it seems to me that Hashgraph is only secure if <50% of the nodes are attacking.
Compare with bitcoin which is secure only if <50% of the hashpower is attacking.
Hash power is expensive, but nodes are cheap. So it seems to me that Hashgraph is not secure.
It is possible I don't completely understand it yet.
Compare with bitcoin which is secure only if <50% of the hashpower is attacking.
Hash power is expensive, but nodes are cheap. So it seems to me that Hashgraph is not secure.
It is possible I don't completely understand it yet.
19:41
Deleted Account
The only thing i like about is it the fair ordering of transactions.
RL
19:45
To start whoever has a botnet is gonna win dem coins!
Z
RL
19:46
R L
Wish I had one under my control haha
19:47
AmoveoBotnetMiningToken
19:47
Haha
CB
19:58
CeloStarter Bandits
i am sure this asked many times. Is this CPU or GPU mining?
Z
20:01
Zack
In reply to this message
The testnet only has CPU mining so far.
It is our goal to progress up the hierarchy as quickly as possible.
CPU < GPU < FPGA < ASIC
We will use insured crowdfunding contracts on Amoveo to pay people to develop mining tools.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/6663de2b2181c4435c35eea36d36f7ec5565463c/docs/use-cases-and-ideas/insured_crowdfund.md
It is our goal to progress up the hierarchy as quickly as possible.
CPU < GPU < FPGA < ASIC
We will use insured crowdfunding contracts on Amoveo to pay people to develop mining tools.
https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/6663de2b2181c4435c35eea36d36f7ec5565463c/docs/use-cases-and-ideas/insured_crowdfund.md
Z
20:30
Zack
In reply to this message
I don't plan on writing GPU mining in time for the main-net. I hope someone else will do it.
Otherwise we will use insured crowdfunding to pay someone to do it.
Otherwise we will use insured crowdfunding to pay someone to do it.
Money Making Mitch joined group by link from Group
20:34
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
It's difficult to me. now u have the only plan to mine is CPU? and GPU, FPGA, ASIC is plan to insured crowdfunding?
Z
20:36
Zack
In reply to this message
Right now it is only possible to mine with CPU.
It is hard to know when GPU mining will become possible. I hope it happens soon.
insured crowdfunding is a type of smart contract that we can put onto Amoveo. The insured crowdfunding contract will let us pay someone to write the GPU software for us.
It is hard to know when GPU mining will become possible. I hope it happens soon.
insured crowdfunding is a type of smart contract that we can put onto Amoveo. The insured crowdfunding contract will let us pay someone to write the GPU software for us.
20:40
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
http://159.89.106.253:8080/wallet.html Is this site minae with CPU?
Z
20:41
Zack
In reply to this message
Yes, you can mine from that site.
But the miner on that site is slower than this miner: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-c-miner
But the miner on that site is slower than this miner: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo-c-miner
Z
Z
21:10
Zack
In reply to this message
지금은 CPU 마이닝 만 존재합니다.
곧 GPU 광산을 갖기를 바랍니다. GPU 마이닝이 언제 시작될 지 예측할 수 없습니다.
우리는 GPU 광산을 만들기 위해 사람들에게 돈을 지불해야합니다. 우리는 Amoveo 현명한 계약을 사용하여 지불 할 수 있습니다.
곧 GPU 광산을 갖기를 바랍니다. GPU 마이닝이 언제 시작될 지 예측할 수 없습니다.
우리는 GPU 광산을 만들기 위해 사람들에게 돈을 지불해야합니다. 우리는 Amoveo 현명한 계약을 사용하여 지불 할 수 있습니다.
21:15
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Thanks I got it. I feel difficult in c-miner. Because I'm not programmer
Z
21:17
Zack
In reply to this message
대부분의 사람들은 컴퓨터를 사용하지 않고 동전을 구입하는 것이 좋습니다.
Most people are better of buying instead of mining.
Most people are better of buying instead of mining.
t
RL
21:22
R L
Whoever invests in it will own it
t
21:23
tclauss
You need to find a f way to massive distribution ...
Z
21:23
Zack
In reply to this message
False. You are confused about economics.
If a miner has to pay $0.99 to make $1.00 of Amoveo, then that means they need to sell 99% of all the tokens they mine, or else they wont be able to afford electricity to keep mining.
If a miner has to pay $0.99 to make $1.00 of Amoveo, then that means they need to sell 99% of all the tokens they mine, or else they wont be able to afford electricity to keep mining.
t
21:25
tclauss
In reply to this message
M, but if the miner with farms have yet the rigs, etc they pay less for amoveo
RL
21:26
R L
Less than who?
t
21:26
tclauss
Initial price
21:26
I m, cost per amoveo
RL
21:26
R L
The more hashpower the more expensive
21:26
The more risk
t
21:26
tclauss
Yep
RL
21:27
R L
Because the coin is valueless until someone buys it
21:27
All you are saying is those with the most money can invest more
21:27
So yeah
t
21:27
tclauss
Yep, but small investors risk more than a prof miner
RL
21:28
R L
That's true with anything
t
21:28
tclauss
Ico I dont likr
RL
21:28
R L
The amount of risk is up to any investor
21:28
A big miner can risk it all if they want
t
21:28
tclauss
For that need to find right way for distr ...
RL
21:28
R L
Same like a small guy
21:29
Nah Amoveo isn't about wealth distribution
21:29
Or robinhooding
t
21:29
tclauss
Haha
RL
21:29
R L
It's true
t
21:29
tclauss
W knows :-)
Z
21:29
Zack
In reply to this message
If it is possible to spend less than $0.99 to mine $1.00 of Amoveo, then that means the block reward is too big. The Amoveo governance mechanism will decrease the block reward until we are efficient again.
t
21:30
tclauss
Zack seems to be the Che of crypto
21:30
😄
RL
21:30
R L
The chi :)
21:31
Deleted Account
Zach what is the mechanism to change the block rewards? Everyone with tokens will vote?
RL
21:32
R L
Mining at any scale is just a business with risks and rewards
Z
21:32
Zack
In reply to this message
It is the same as the oracle mechanism.
Someone asks the oracle if it would be better if the governance variable was changed to a different value.
Someone asks the oracle if it would be better if the governance variable was changed to a different value.
RL
21:33
R L
It's not some free money making exercise. If it was then asic manufacturers would never sell their equipment
Z
RL
21:35
R L
The hope with mining Amoveo is that in the future the mined coins will be more valuable in the future
21:35
Same as buying them early and holding them
21:36
I don't know if what I will pay to mine them will be worth it
Z
21:37
Zack
In reply to this message
false.
If you cannot make a profit by immediately selling the coins you mine, then you should stop mining immediately.
If you cannot make a profit by immediately selling the coins you mine, then you should stop mining immediately.
RL
21:37
R L
But smart contracts on Amoveo can mitigate some risk right Zack?
21:38
Well let's say that out of the gate I can't buy Amoveo
21:38
Deleted Account
Zach in the oracle order books, it's possibe for a miner to front run the market taker?
Z
21:38
Zack
In reply to this message
If it costs $1.00 to mine some tokens, or $0.90 to buy the same number of tokens, then obviously it is better to buy tokens instead of mining.
RL
21:38
R L
Because there are none for sale
21:39
If tomorrow you launched the mainnet how will I buy them tomorrow?
21:39
Mining will be first
Z
21:39
Zack
In reply to this message
the oracle order book only has 1 price. 50-50.
So it doesn't matter if front-running occurs. It will be just as accurate.
So it doesn't matter if front-running occurs. It will be just as accurate.
RL
21:39
R L
Then buying
21:39
Supply and demand will dictate price
21:41
Those invested the most will have the most control over the supply and more control over the demand
Z
21:42
Zack
If there are no tokens available yet it is still possible to know the price because of the futures market.
If mining costs you $1.00 to make $0.90 worth of tokens, then you should not mine.
You should make a contract with someone else who is mining so that they will pay you the tokens they find.
It only makes sense to mine if you can produce tokens at a cost lower than the cost of buying them.
If mining costs you $1.00 to make $0.90 worth of tokens, then you should not mine.
You should make a contract with someone else who is mining so that they will pay you the tokens they find.
It only makes sense to mine if you can produce tokens at a cost lower than the cost of buying them.
RL
21:43
R L
How can I make a contract with no tokens?
Z
21:43
Zack
a trustful contract.
RL
21:43
R L
Outside of the network?
21:44
I'm just saying. People will initially mine this and hold the tokens whether it is immediately profitable or not
Z
21:44
Zack
yeah.
For example, I have a friend in Ukraine who has a ton of GPU, and he says I can pay him to mine Amoveo for me.
I guess I would pay him 1 day at a time, so he can't rob me of too much.
For example, I have a friend in Ukraine who has a ton of GPU, and he says I can pay him to mine Amoveo for me.
I guess I would pay him 1 day at a time, so he can't rob me of too much.
RL
21:44
R L
Should be pretty clear
21:45
OK so he can mine for you and then you can immediately sell the tokens
21:45
If you need the money
21:46
I will hold mine and wait for other people to build more value into the network
21:46
That's what investing is
21:48
I can spend 10k mining out of the gate and wait 3 years and if the network works I will profit
21:48
Unless I am missing something
Z
21:49
Zack
Yes, if Amoveo is successful, then you could burn 50% of your money at the start and still make a profit in the long run.
I can't stop people from making mistakes like this, I can only offer advice.
I can't stop people from making mistakes like this, I can only offer advice.
RL
21:50
R L
#1 no tokens will be for sale day one. So it's all a gamble. Mining will happen before a single token is sold
21:51
#2 no one knows what the price will be when they are freely available for sale
Z
21:51
Zack
If you spend $10k mining at a loss very quickly, that will push the difficulty so high that it will be impossible for anyone to mine at a profit.
This is a fairly effective way to break Amoveo.
Many altcoins have died this way.
This is a fairly effective way to break Amoveo.
Many altcoins have died this way.
RL
21:52
R L
#3 Noone without tokens can hedge their risk on the network
Z
RL
21:52
R L
Where?
21:52
On Amoveo where I need TOKENS to play?
21:53
How will I participate in futures without coins?
Z
21:53
Zack
Like I said before, I will pay my friend in the Ukraine to mine for me.
No, not on Amoveo.
I am trusting him because he is my friend.
You should find someone similar.
No, not on Amoveo.
I am trusting him because he is my friend.
You should find someone similar.
RL
21:53
R L
I don't need a friend
21:54
A friend can't give me amoveo
21:54
Day one to get Amoveo I need to mine
21:54
To play futures I need to veo
21:54
To get veo day one I need to mine
Z
RL
21:56
R L
I've got other I have no incentive to risk anything in Amoveo
21:56
Right now
21:56
But I hear you
21:57
You plan on mining day one right? Me too
Z
21:57
Zack
My family is farmers. Sometimes they use futures markets to sell the crop before it is harvested.
RL
21:58
R L
I won't be selling my veo unless the price is insanely overpriced
21:58
In the beginning
21:59
Because I can invest
21:59
I understand the value of futures
21:59
I can hedge my Amoveo mining investment elsewhere
22:00
I'm hedge with my Aeternity tokens right now.
22:01
I will mine Amoveo to hedge my AE investment
Z
22:01
Zack
How much do you plan to spend on mining per day at the start?
RL
22:02
R L
Dude my guess is that there is going to be a TON of hashpower thrown at Amoveo day one
22:03
And I will bet 10k on day one will actually represent a small small portion of what goes in
Z
22:03
Zack
Ive been thinking I would start with $5 a day, but the way you talk, maybe I wouldn't find any blocks.
RL
22:03
R L
Dude think of the icos
22:03
The money that goes into those in seconds
22:03
That's what you will be dealing with
22:03
30 million in hashpower day one
Z
22:04
Zack
Amoveo will be distributed over years, and it will increase exponentially.
an ico compresses the entire distribution process into a month.
an ico compresses the entire distribution process into a month.
RL
22:04
R L
Whether sensible or not
22:04
I know
22:04
But people want in. They have the hashpower available
22:05
They will point it at amoveo
22:05
To get what COULD be cheap coins
22:05
That's the mentality
Z
22:05
Zack
If there is more than $50k spent on mining on day 1, then I bet it would break and we would have to start over.
The difficulty would go too high, and then everyone would stop mining, and then it would take us like a week to find one block.
The difficulty would go too high, and then everyone would stop mining, and then it would take us like a week to find one block.
RL
22:06
R L
Yeah it'll probably happen
Z
22:06
Zack
I guess we could do a couple hard forks the first month until the miners chill out.
RL
22:06
R L
Try convincing people not to mine it because that might happen haha
22:07
Yeah I don't know enough to understand how to mitigate the issue
22:07
Is it possible for the network to simple handle it and work as it should?
22:08
Difficulty goes up and reward goes down appropriately?
22:09
Then like you say.. it becomes to risky ie not enough buy support to maintain confidence to risk the money to keep mining
22:10
Speculation is going to drive this thing out of the gate.. and there will be a ton of hashpower to start
22:10
Whether it's a bad investment or not
22:12
If you want to limit hashpower don't make it technically easy to mine. Like.. don't compile the miner and make executables
Z
22:12
Zack
Currently I need to be able to mine blocks on my laptop for the testnet, so the difficulty is incredibly low.
It is like $0.00002 per block.
It is like $0.00002 per block.
22:13
So it would cost $0.04 to mine 2000 blocks till retargetting. I guess someone committed could do this in a 0.1 seconds.
RL
22:13
R L
There's going to be an army of guys like me that don't fully understand all the economics of mining who will be mining :)
M
22:14
Minieep21
Can confirm. Got no money but got the hashpower.
RL
22:15
R L
Look at eos. Look at the amount of value pumped into it out of pure speculation. Look at any recent ico with a promise of a new blockchain
22:15
That same pressure of speculation will be set on Amoveo
22:16
But through mining
22:16
Deleted Account
mining is the fairest way
22:16
mining is the most responsible way
Z
22:16
Zack
I guess we should launch with the assumption that it will break a few times the first month until we figure out the correct price of a coin.
RL
22:17
R L
For sure but I think Zack might be underestimating the amount of interest and straight up money that people will be clamouring to throw into Amoveo on day one
22:17
Maybe I am overestimating.. that is my hope though
22:17
So I will be throwing a lot at it
22:18
I hope I am overestimating but I don't think I am
Z
22:18
Zack
There is a pretty high chance that Amoveo will break sometime during the first year and we will have to start over. Don't invest too much.
RL
22:19
R L
Even if it breaks no one will abondened any value that will be there
22:19
Deleted Account
as Zack said. all project have the possibility of being a failure. If u start a ICO，you just sell all the token into real money. And probably all investment of whole investors are gone.
RL
22:19
R L
Once it's in there if the project continues then it will carry that value over.
Z
22:20
Zack
In reply to this message
There are ways it can break where the value is completely unrecoverable. Like hyperinflation.
But for most cases you are correct. If there is a failure, I will do my best to recover in the fairest way possible, so we all still have our same money.
But for most cases you are correct. If there is a failure, I will do my best to recover in the fairest way possible, so we all still have our same money.
RL
22:20
R L
What is an ico? Investing in a coin. Mining is the same.
22:21
Let's say it breaks.
22:21
And I have 2 million in value in it
22:21
I have an incentive to retain that value
22:22
If it costs me a million to relaunch the chain with my value intact then it's worth it
22:22
I start the new chain and everyone keeps their balance
Z
22:22
Zack
That is only possible if you can know what everyone's balances should be.
RL
22:23
R L
Old chain had that info
Z
22:24
Zack
Yes, usually it will be possible to find an old block that enough people are satisfied with so we can continue.
But if the inflation slowly increased to become hyperinflation. it might be impossible to reach consensus for any particular moment in history.
But if the inflation slowly increased to become hyperinflation. it might be impossible to reach consensus for any particular moment in history.
RL
22:24
R L
Yeah but you know..
Z
22:25
Zack
For example, if the community repeatedly increases the block reward
RL
22:25
R L
Centralized decision would be made by large stackholder
22:25
And those who benefit from the decision will go on
22:25
And the minority will lose
22:26
But I certainly don't know.. stuff breaks hahah
22:26
It's all risk and reward. The greatest game in the world
Youngsoo Kim joined group by link from Group
MH
22:29
Mandel Hoff
Heads or Tails pretty fun too.
22:32
Putting serious money in to preproduct ICO much less fun.
MH
23:09
Mandel Hoff
If you see veo for sale please point it out. I'd love to see that. I can't imaging calculating an asking price.
23:16
Is there a second name for the veo units? 1 veo = 100000000 units?
RL
23:18
Others
MH
23:21
Mandel Hoff
Sure, amounts are all relative.
Z
23:21
Zack
In reply to this message
For example, my relative X gave me $1000 to invest in Amoveo. Instead of paying me in cash for this service, they let me stay at their house a couple months.
I agreed to use the $1000 over a ~6 month period to buy as many Veo for them as I can.
This type of future's contract can't be used to estimate the price per coin or the price per block reward.
It seems like a bad idea to invest per coin at this point in time. We have no idea what the community will decide is a good block reward and block time.
They might start giving out 100 000 coins per block every 30 seconds.
Or maybe it will be 0.01 coins every 10 minutes.
I have been calling the smallest units "satoshis".
I agreed to use the $1000 over a ~6 month period to buy as many Veo for them as I can.
This type of future's contract can't be used to estimate the price per coin or the price per block reward.
It seems like a bad idea to invest per coin at this point in time. We have no idea what the community will decide is a good block reward and block time.
They might start giving out 100 000 coins per block every 30 seconds.
Or maybe it will be 0.01 coins every 10 minutes.
I have been calling the smallest units "satoshis".
23:24
Any idea what a good initial difficulty would be?
Maybe we should start with it too-high, and it will fail. and every day we try again with it 20% lower.
Until eventually it is low enough to stay alive.
Maybe we should start with it too-high, and it will fail. and every day we try again with it 20% lower.
Until eventually it is low enough to stay alive.
RL
23:27
R L
I have no idea
Z
23:28
Zack
If we start too low, then whoever is the fastest miner on day 1 will get the first 2000 blocks.
RL
23:28
R L
Yeah
23:29
Someone will get the majority of them no matter what
23:31
I wonder how difficult it would be to get a mining pool available launched in conjunction with the mainnet release
23:32
I would run it no problem
Z
23:32
Zack
I think the trick is to start with the block reward at practically zero.
So the only miners are doing it altruistically.
Then we can slowly increase the block reward, and the difficulty will slowly increase along with it.
So the only miners are doing it altruistically.
Then we can slowly increase the block reward, and the difficulty will slowly increase along with it.
RL
23:32
R L
I just don't know what's involved in getting amoveo to work with the opensource pool software that's available
Z
23:33
Zack
In reply to this message
the testnet has a mining pool.
It isn't perfect software, but it works.
I was planning on running it when the mainnet launches
It isn't perfect software, but it works.
I was planning on running it when the mainnet launches
RL
23:33
R L
Yeah not a bad idea
23:33
OK well that's a great way to help distribute rewards
23:34
Mining pool will always get the most hashpower
Z
23:35
Zack
oh yeah, you are right. Even if the mining pool got all 2000 blocks, the money would still be distributed to lots of people.
RL
23:35
R L
Yeah totally
23:36
The Web miner is great in that regard. I know it's slow.. but people will still use it
23:37
Because it's easy
23:37
No one will use it long term.. but it will have big rolliver
23:37
Rollover
Z
23:37
Zack
yes. I think it wouldn't be too difficult to upgrade the web miner to use web assembly, and it would be as fast as the C-miner.
RL
23:37
R L
Yeah that would be KILLER
23:38
then you have a complete Web interface to do everything
23:38
And for newbs like me... so easy to get involved
23:39
Super low friction and low perceived investment
Z
23:40
Zack
In reply to this message
yeah, but as soon as GPU miners appeared it would be obsolete.
It is hard to know if I should be building the GPU one or the web assembly one first.
It is hard to know if I should be building the GPU one or the web assembly one first.
RL
23:41
R L
Yeah but people still mine bitcoin with cpu.. not kidding
23:41
So still would be used because of ease of use
Z
23:42
Zack
it is true. Websites use it as an alternative to ads.
RL
23:42
R L
The page you made is awesome for a lot of reasons
23:43
No chain that I can think of has a site where I can visit it, get a wallet, mine and make bets/contracts
23:44
As an end user this has so much potential
23:44
I just haven't had the time.. but I've wanted to get an instance of it up and running and make a really nice interface for it
Z
RL
23:45
R L
It's better than an airdrop and the network gets used right out the gate
23:46
It's gold. Seriously
23:46
I will work on a front end for it. What's running in the backend?
Z
23:47
Zack
I think that the key generation isn't secure yet. I am thinking of letting the user type a bunch of random entropy, and using that to generate their keys.
MH
23:47
Mandel Hoff
I have a node and pool up too. Yes a pay per share pool would be a nice enhancement.
Z
23:47
Zack
In reply to this message
It is a bunch of javascript that uses http requests to contact a full node of Amoveo.
RL
23:48
R L
Right on awesome
23:48
And is it all in the repo?
23:48
Just on my phone
MH
RL
23:49
R L
Mandel are you running the Web interface yourself as well?
Z
23:49
Zack
In reply to this message
If my server goes down, you can access the same light wallet from Mendel http://13.92.84.57:8080/wallet.html
RL
23:49
R L
Ha nice
MH
23:49
Mandel Hoff
No. I dont have the web ui hosted now
RL
23:49
R L
But you have a pool setup??
MH
23:50
Mandel Hoff
Oh haha. Maybe I do have the web ui hosted. Didn't realize it.
Z
23:50
Zack
It is kind of insecure now, because Mendel or I might be running a node with different javascript embedded in it to trick you into sending us your VEO.
MH
23:50
Mandel Hoff
Yes pool up on my box
Z
23:51
Zack
If you make a channel with Mendel's server, you wont be able to access that channel when you connect to my server. Because a channel is a 2-way relationship.
RL
23:51
R L
Yeah for sure
23:51
But it is what it is
MH
RL
23:52
R L
People who don't want to trust don't have to
23:52
People that are willing to take a chance can
23:52
I tried to get amoveo.com
23:52
Wasn't available
23:53
I did get amoveominingpool.com 2 or 3 weeks ago though
Z
23:53
Zack
I think it wouldn't cost us much to rename the project.
Someone messaged me at one point saying they had a bunch of amoveo domains they would give me whenever
Someone messaged me at one point saying they had a bunch of amoveo domains they would give me whenever
RL
23:53
R L
Zack you can have it or use it whatever
Z
23:53
Zack
cool, thanks rw freshmore
RL
23:53
R L
Dude no problem
23:54
I want to run a Web interface for aure
23:54
No intention of scamming anyone
23:54
No interest in scamming anyone whatsoever
Z
23:55
Zack
On desktop I know how to make it secure.
We can distribute the light wallet as a single page html that is signed with the amoveo master key.
It can be distributed by torrent or download.
We can distribute the light wallet as a single page html that is signed with the amoveo master key.
It can be distributed by torrent or download.
RL
23:55
R L
Yeah nice. I would still like to run one though
23:56
There is value in it for people
23:56
Vast majority technically ability and incentive doesn't go beyond visiting a Web page
23:57
No need for them to be left out
23:57
ALL the disclaimers and warnings in full view
23:57
Like on MEW
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Z
23:58
Zack
yes. ideally it could also be used as a watch-only wallet. So you could look up your balance without having to put your private key onto your phone.
23:59
maybe the way to make it secure on phones is to have an app made?
RL
23:59
R L
Yeah for sure
23:59
But till then.. just like you have now.. it can evolve
29 January 2018
RL
00:00
R L
And risk management and security can improve over time
00:00
Just like bitcoin and the Internet itself
Z
00:01
Zack
yeah, I am the kind of programmer who likes to have a working product that has incremental improvement, rather than building something that doesn't work until it is finished.
RL
00:02
R L
Yeah exactly
00:02
When you first put the light wallet/miner page up... I thought that was pretty exciting
00:03
But I'm an end user really
00:03
So it's something that was so easily accessible
00:04
Really demonstrates the potential to a wide audience
00:05
Here's what I propose.. I would like to work on that interface and run one for people who it would appeal to. No scams. Nothing hidden
00:06
Work on making it secure and super easy to use and understand
Z
00:07
Zack
In reply to this message
Sure. I would like to help you to do something like this.
These are important problems to think about, how can we balance convenience while also providing sufficient security guarantees.
Would you make your work open source?
These are important problems to think about, how can we balance convenience while also providing sufficient security guarantees.
Would you make your work open source?
RL
00:08
R L
Host it with ssl and then openly take some pool fee. Like 1%
00:08
Yeah for sure
Z
00:08
Zack
great
RL
00:08
R L
And host it under some kind of amoveo domain
00:09
Agreeable?
00:09
AND if you wanted push some fee/contribution to you as well
Z
00:09
Zack
It is not like you need my permission for any of this, but I like what you want to do, and I would give you advice to help you.
RL
00:09
R L
Or some foundation or whatever
00:10
Yeah I do want your blessing otherwise it will have way less appeal and likely be way less successful and useful
00:11
Because the one that you back is going to be the one everyone uses. Period
Z
00:11
Zack
It is really hard to predict things like this
RL
00:12
R L
Nah anything is possible but some things are way more likely
00:12
No obligation to you
MH
00:14
Mandel Hoff
Yes, UI for creating future bets would be incredibly useful.
RL
00:14
R L
I mean from you!!
00:14
I mean no pressure
00:15
Dude flat out. You are creating value. I am just looking for a way to interact and maybe make something too. It's all yours though. You've invested WAY WAY more into this than anyone else
00:16
So yeah if you weren't into me making/hosting a page like that I wouldn't do it
Z
00:17
Zack
In reply to this message
It is already possible to see the volume of open buys and sells in the market.
What ui should we make next?
What ui should we make next?
MH
00:18
Mandel Hoff
Ok, sounds fun enough. "Will code for food".
RL
00:18
R L
Anyway for now I have other less exciting work I am obligated to. Hopefully in the next few days I can get something setup and put some time into it
Z
00:19
Zack
In reply to this message
the miner is currently a single on-off switch. I don't see how it can be simpler.
What would you change or add to the current ui?
What would you change or add to the current ui?
RL
00:20
R L
Yeah, tab it out, also add lots of hints, with plain language help for explaining what it is and how it is used.. I the interface
MH
00:21
Mandel Hoff
Indicated bas64 or hex or formats on the ui would be nice for me. That might not make it easier for other users.
00:22
Making coins values consistent on UI 1.00000 vs 100000 would be nice. Somethings use the veo and some Satoshi units.
RL
00:22
R L
I'll get something up and running and go from there. TTYL peace
Z
00:24
Zack
In reply to this message
the javascript light node has to connect to a pool.
If you are already running an amoveo full node on your computer, then just use the erlang miner since it is faster than the javascript one.
So the javascript light node only has one mode.
I agree, we need a way to give your public key to the light wallet without the private key. That is a good idea, I will add it to the todo list.
If you are already running an amoveo full node on your computer, then just use the erlang miner since it is faster than the javascript one.
So the javascript light node only has one mode.
I agree, we need a way to give your public key to the light wallet without the private key. That is a good idea, I will add it to the todo list.
MH
Z
00:25
Zack
In reply to this message
tabbing things out sounds like a good way to make the page less cluttered. I am running out of creativity on what hints to use.
00:27
In reply to this message
we are trying to store everything as satoshis everywhere, but display them as coins for the light node. I will try to find and fix this.
00:28
In reply to this message
It isn't possible to connect the erlang miner to a pool. It can only solo mine.
00:29
In reply to this message
making it more obvious that you need to insert your pubkey is a good idea
MH
00:30
Mandel Hoff
In reply to this message
Perhaps the ui is consistent. I may be mixing up the node account output with ui units.
F
00:30
Francesco @ Simply
In reply to this message
Wasn't there an option in the .erl file to define the peer as a mining pool, or am I mistaken?
Z
00:31
Zack
you are thinking of the miner.erl file in amoveo-c-miner.
The c-miner can connect to a erlang node directly on the same computer, or you can connnect to a mining pool.
The c-miner can connect to a erlang node directly on the same computer, or you can connnect to a mining pool.
F
00:32
Francesco @ Simply
Oh right I was using the c miner not the one built into the node
Z
00:32
Zack
yes ok, I will make this simpler so you don't have to edit a .erl file. This is a good idea
SS
00:34
S S
Zack, is there a starting guide kind of thing for contributing to development?
MH
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SS
01:50
S S
Thanks
03:42
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
I take you alot more seriously with following all discussions - and Nice new name.
RL
04:00
R L
Don't take me too seriously
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MH
05:33
Mandel Hoff
How does main net launch work? Do I need to deploy new node software or just reset my tree databases at same time you do? I'm curious what stops main net from taking blocks from test net.
Z
05:38
Zack
In reply to this message
version.erl will change to a random value in a range of my choosing.
On the day of launch I will be sending small amounts of money to lots of people, and if they send it back to me then I will give them even more.
This way you can verify that I didn't premine. You just have to meet one of the many people who sent a tx on the first day.
On the day of launch I will be sending small amounts of money to lots of people, and if they send it back to me then I will give them even more.
This way you can verify that I didn't premine. You just have to meet one of the many people who sent a tx on the first day.
05:39
If you try to send me money on the first day, and your tx gets included in a block, then you can be certain that there is no premine.
MH
05:42
Mandel Hoff
Do we use wallet addresses and keys from test net for that day 1 scenario? I'm guessing you ask people to sign up for that and need addresses ahead of launch.
Z
05:44
Zack
I think I might change the address format.
It would be nice if there was a checksum to prevent people who copy/pasted wrong from losing funds.
Also, there is a cryptographic way to compress the key to be half as big. Which would be nice because the keys are so huge.
It would be nice if there was a checksum to prevent people who copy/pasted wrong from losing funds.
Also, there is a cryptographic way to compress the key to be half as big. Which would be nice because the keys are so huge.
MH
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G
06:20
Gonzalo
In reply to this message
Yes it was me. Weeks ago I secured a few Amoveo domains, all available to transfer to Zack anytime. Most interesting I think is amoveo.io
06:21
I cant remember the others, right now not at home, I'll out a few days
Z
06:21
Zack
In reply to this message
Awesome. Thank you Gonzalo. It is great having the support of a community like this.
G
Z
06:22
Zack
yeah, that is a good one
G
06:25
Gonzalo
Thanks Zack, as I told you I'm glad to help. I also follow you since the stinky Aeternity project and I also did not like what happened to you
06:26
BTW, smallest units if VEO should be called ZACKS 😄
MH
G
06:27
Gonzalo
😜👍
MH
06:37
Mandel Hoff
Zach, does the bash the pool passes out include the pool's address so a miner can't cherry pick the solution away from the pool?
06:40
Not bash, bhash. Autocorrect.
Z
06:41
Zack
Only the miner knows the block that makes that block hash. You need to give the solution to that particular miner.
06:41
maybe I misunderstood the question.
MH
06:44
Mandel Hoff
To make a pay per share mining pool the pool's address needs to be embedded to the bhash so when a miner finds a new block they can't keep it for themself.
06:46
You may already do that such that the pool takes credit and payout to miner but wanted to make sure the solution found can't be kept and submitted by a miner for miner's gain
Z
06:48
Zack
yeah, it is impossible for the miner to keep the reward for themselves. Only the mining pool operator can use the nonce to make a valid block and collect the reward, because the mining pool operator wrote the coinbase tx that is included in the block.
06:49
bhash is just the hash of the block. the miners don't have to download the entire block, only it's hash.
MH
06:50
Mandel Hoff
Awesome.
Z
07:25
Zack
the light node now lets you generate your own entropy by typing, for extra security. And it support watch-only mode, so you don't have to put your private key on your phone.
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Z
17:28
Zack
Here is a summary of what was accomplished for Amoveo in January 2018. https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/docs/progress_reports/January_2018_summary.md
17:29
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Sticker
Not included, change data exporting settings to download.
✊, 30.8 KB
18:01
Deleted Account
👍
18:32
Deleted Account
👍👍👍
Z
19:09
Zack
@Mandelhoff I set up a market on the server. I have plenty of Veo because people have been using the mining pool. http://159.89.106.253:8080/explorer.html
MH
19:19
Mandel Hoff
Thank you. I'll test later today.
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22:22
Deleted Account
You also need to have a rest. Not coding day and night.
Deleted joined group by link from Group
30 January 2018
00:34
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
Zack
I've been there, doing the right regardless, re- your Reddit post with Yani giving you the kick.
I'm sure many in here have the same question, I want to help but not technical.
Clicked minning pool, saw IP address and market. I know code is running on CPU for now. Not looking for wealth enhancement immediately, it could come later. So I have an 8mb RAM laptop I bought myself for Christmas, not using, I do most research and my communication on mobile. You mentioned tutorial earlier. I just need basic do this, this and this to help with testing- minning- on the laptop if thats possible.
I'm in Montana in U.S. , kind of out in no-where surrounded by huge grain farming operations. Ready to assist you if needed.
I've been there, doing the right regardless, re- your Reddit post with Yani giving you the kick.
I'm sure many in here have the same question, I want to help but not technical.
Clicked minning pool, saw IP address and market. I know code is running on CPU for now. Not looking for wealth enhancement immediately, it could come later. So I have an 8mb RAM laptop I bought myself for Christmas, not using, I do most research and my communication on mobile. You mentioned tutorial earlier. I just need basic do this, this and this to help with testing- minning- on the laptop if thats possible.
I'm in Montana in U.S. , kind of out in no-where surrounded by huge grain farming operations. Ready to assist you if needed.
MH
00:37
Mandel Hoff
Zack, I see the market address and it's "btc 12k$ bet". I'm guessing that I need to create a channel with you to lock up veo, and after the channel I can execute a "bet" somehow. Is that right?
00:40
I see the channel creation, but I don't see where I can put addresses for the two parties in the channel.
00:41
I see "market expires at block 4400", but what would a reasonable value for this be? "how long should the channel last?"
Z
01:47
Zack
In reply to this message
I think the channel fees are pretty high. Maybe it costs more than how much money you put in the channel.
01:49
In reply to this message
It needs to last at least till 4700, that gives you 200 blocks of time for the Oracle to settle.
01:49
In reply to this message
It is making a channel between you, and the server you downloaded the light node javascript from.
MH
01:58
Mandel Hoff
I have 0.441 veo. Amount to lock: 0.1, Delay 0 blocks. The per block per coin cost is 1250. Is the "how long?" 4700 - current(832) = 3868 blocks?
01:59
1250 * 3868 = 4,835,000 - is that 0.04 veo?
02:00
It says 1250 "per coin". Is per coin veo or zack units?
02:02
I'm trying lock 0.1 and 1000 (not sure what unit size is). With delay 0, and duration 3900 blocks. When I click "make channel", the lock value field clears but nothing else happens. My wallet balance doesn't change with anything I've tried yet.
Z
02:02
Zack
In reply to this message
1250 satoshis * 3868 blocks * a balance of 0.001 coins makes about 4000 satoshis.
I guess it is less expensive than I remembered
I guess it is less expensive than I remembered
02:03
Maybe open the developer console for your browser. It will give you more of an idea what went wrong.
02:05
Since you only have 0.44 Veo, you can't lock more than that much into a channel.
0.44 is < 1000. So you can't afford to lock 1000 Veo in a channel .
0.44 is < 1000. So you can't afford to lock 1000 Veo in a channel .
MH
02:08
Mandel Hoff
Ok, I tried with 0.1 channel lock and no luck with that yet too.
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MH
02:09
Mandel Hoff
02:10
Server 500 error on "Make channel" click.
Z
02:17
Zack
In reply to this message
my mistake. the wallet on the server wasn't unlocked, so the server couldn't sign the tx to make a channel.
02:20
In reply to this message
There is a problem.
The channel IDs used to be small numbers that fit in javascript, but now they are big integers that do not.
The channel IDs used to be small numbers that fit in javascript, but now they are big integers that do not.
02:21
I guess they need to be changed to be stored as binary instead of integer, so that the format will work in javascript.
So we can't make channels from the light node right now.
So we can't make channels from the light node right now.
02:25
I had to fix this same sort of problem today with the markets on the explorer. since market IDs are huge integers that javascript can't understand.
02:25
but the light node needs to sign the channel. So to fix this will be a hard fork.
It is good this is happening now instead of after mainnet launch.
It is good this is happening now instead of after mainnet launch.
MH
02:29
Mandel Hoff
Sounds good. Let me know when I should test again. Sounds like I'll need to reset my node and mine some new coins, right?
Z
02:35
Zack
This time I will keep the master keys, so I can just send you some coins when it is ready to test
MH
02:36
Mandel Hoff
😆👍
Z
05:10
Zack
I am attempting to fix it with a soft fork.
For practice at soft forks.
For practice at soft forks.
05:16
The soft fork is working.
It was easy, because no one had made an oracle_bet tx yet. So I could freely edit those parts of the consensus code.
It was easy, because no one had made an oracle_bet tx yet. So I could freely edit those parts of the consensus code.
Z
05:48
Zack
It seems like I failed the soft fork, the testnet broke.
So I am going to use this opportunity to do a hard fork that fixes some final pieces.
So I am going to use this opportunity to do a hard fork that fixes some final pieces.
MH
05:49
Mandel Hoff
Sounds fine to me.
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RL
08:11
R L
Stick a fork in it!
Z
11:28
Zack
I did the hard fork. but the markets wont be ready until I recompile the smart contract and embed it into javascript again. Then i will run some more tests and report back here.
RL
11:30
R L
Nice.
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MH
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31 January 2018
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Z
07:03
Zack
I recompiled the contract, and did a bunch of other small changes to the api and the light node because we identify oracles and markets with a binary instead of an integer now.
The light node should work for making bets in the market.
The main issue for now is that when it fails, it doesn't give a useful error message.
Like if the delay is below some limit, it will fail. But it doesn't say anything about the delay being too low, and it is difficult to guess what went wrong.
The light node should work for making bets in the market.
The main issue for now is that when it fails, it doesn't give a useful error message.
Like if the delay is below some limit, it will fail. But it doesn't say anything about the delay being too low, and it is difficult to guess what went wrong.
Z
08:06
Zack
Amoveo doesn't use any database like SQL or BekeleyDB or leveldb. Instead Amoveo writes bytes directly to files.
This protects Amoveo from a lot of attacks.
A secure blockchain cannot be built on an insecure database. Modifying an existing database to be secure is very difficult. Look at the custom LevelDB that was built for Bitcoin for example.
Amoveo's solution is also more elegant.
Building a merkle tree on top of a database tree structure is inefficient. the 2 trees on top of each other are solving the same problems.
1 tree structure is O(log_x(N)) in time, where N is the number of elements and x is the radix of the tree.
a tree on top of a tree becomes O(log_x(N) * log_y(N)), where x and y are the radix of the 2 trees. This is slower.
This protects Amoveo from a lot of attacks.
A secure blockchain cannot be built on an insecure database. Modifying an existing database to be secure is very difficult. Look at the custom LevelDB that was built for Bitcoin for example.
Amoveo's solution is also more elegant.
Building a merkle tree on top of a database tree structure is inefficient. the 2 trees on top of each other are solving the same problems.
1 tree structure is O(log_x(N)) in time, where N is the number of elements and x is the radix of the tree.
a tree on top of a tree becomes O(log_x(N) * log_y(N)), where x and y are the radix of the 2 trees. This is slower.
MH
09:01
Mandel Hoff
Awesome. I expect to get a node update tomorrow and mine and test bets.
MH
09:47
Mandel Hoff
09:49
The first "uncaught serialize trie bad trie type" was when I click the "check balance" button. The other error is when I click the make channel button. I tried a 0.002 amount to lock, delay 10, last until 4700. My wallet total balance is 0.007.
Z
10:39
Zack
The bad trie type could be for a couple different reasons:
1) maybe you need to refresh the page, it is an old version of the javascript.
2) maybe you need to sync the headers. refreshing the page would fix this. or clicking the "get more headers" button.
3) maybe the account doesn't have money yet. It takes some time until the tx creating the account gets included into a block. The light node is actually verifying work proofs and merkel proofs, and it can't verify these until the block exists.
Once the account it working, then it should be possible to make the channel and make bets in the channel.
1) maybe you need to refresh the page, it is an old version of the javascript.
2) maybe you need to sync the headers. refreshing the page would fix this. or clicking the "get more headers" button.
3) maybe the account doesn't have money yet. It takes some time until the tx creating the account gets included into a block. The light node is actually verifying work proofs and merkel proofs, and it can't verify these until the block exists.
Once the account it working, then it should be possible to make the channel and make bets in the channel.
10:39
@Mandelhoff Thanks for testing and sharing this error report.
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Z
19:04
Zack
I used the light node to make a trade to show that it works: http://159.89.106.253:8080/explorer.html
MH
20:18
Mandel Hoff
Ok, will mine and test more and clear js cache.
MH
21:24
Mandel Hoff
Z
21:25
Zack
great! you made a bet.
The first time someone besides me has done this.
A milestone.
The first time someone besides me has done this.
A milestone.
Z
21:27
Zack
In reply to this message
eventually, yes.
Right now it is only CPU minable.
Eventually we will have ASICS.
Right now it is only CPU minable.
Eventually we will have ASICS.
MH
21:28
Mandel Hoff
21:28
It works! Derivatives gambling already scaring me a little bit inside.
21:29
What does the 0-100 x axis mean? It says "price", but I thought this is just a true/false on btc at 12k$ - no?
Z
21:30
Zack
1-100 is like the odds.
If I am willing to pay $0.80 for something that pays out $1.00 if I win, or $0.00 if I lose, then that means I think there is a >80% chance that I will win.
If I am willing to pay $0.80 for something that pays out $1.00 if I win, or $0.00 if I lose, then that means I think there is a >80% chance that I will win.
21:31
It is just true/false.
You can bet on true or false at any price from 0.01 to 99.99
You can bet on true or false at any price from 0.01 to 99.99
MH
21:32
Mandel Hoff
I'll have questions about channel state. I saved the json, but not sure how much of that is secret versus not secret versus "what if I lose channel state json file". No rush on those details though.
21:33
Ok, I get the 1-100 odds thing. The "price" word threw me off a little bit since it was already on the price of btc.
21:33
This is going to be a big deal.
Z
21:37
Zack
If someone get a copy of your channel state, then they can use it to start closing the channel before you or the server had intended to close it.
If you lose the channel state, then your partner can close the channel at any point in the channel's history that they want.
Currently, the software will just leave the channel open forever, I haven't written code for automatically cleaning out old channels yet.
One option to improve on the situation is to simply ask the server for a recent copy of the state.
The server doesn't know if you are testing it, or if you actually lost your state. So the server will probably be honest.
I programmed this into the erlang node, but haven't rewritten it to javascript yet.
If you lose the channel state, then your partner can close the channel at any point in the channel's history that they want.
Currently, the software will just leave the channel open forever, I haven't written code for automatically cleaning out old channels yet.
One option to improve on the situation is to simply ask the server for a recent copy of the state.
The server doesn't know if you are testing it, or if you actually lost your state. So the server will probably be honest.
I programmed this into the erlang node, but haven't rewritten it to javascript yet.
MH
21:48
Mandel Hoff
My full node has 60 veo. As soon as I figure out how to spend out of it, I'll send out free veo so anyone watching this channel can make bets and test.
dmg joined group by link from Group
MH
21:49
Mandel Hoff
Definitely want to test the "settle up" functionality.
RL
21:50
R L
Hey guys very cool
Z
21:51
Zack
You have to buy bets that pay a high enough price that they can be combined into a batch.
If the 2 prices add up to something bigger than 100, then they can combine to form a batch.
Then you will have share in the market.
You can combine the shares in opposite directions to recover VEO.
So if you have shares of True, and you want to sell for VEO, instead you buy shares of False, and then combine the True and False to form VEO.
If the 2 prices add up to something bigger than 100, then they can combine to form a batch.
Then you will have share in the market.
You can combine the shares in opposite directions to recover VEO.
So if you have shares of True, and you want to sell for VEO, instead you buy shares of False, and then combine the True and False to form VEO.
21:52
Batches can only happen when a block is found.
This market will only have 1 batch every 20 blocks or so, at most.
This market will only have 1 batch every 20 blocks or so, at most.
MH
21:54
Mandel Hoff
Can a single batch accommodate many many bets that group up like that?
Z
21:55
Zack
yes.
The batch will match as many bets as possible. After the batch, there will be no more overlap in price between the orange part of the graph and the blue part.
The batch will match as many bets as possible. After the batch, there will be no more overlap in price between the orange part of the graph and the blue part.
MH
21:55
Mandel Hoff
Awesome
1 February 2018
MH
00:09
Mandel Hoff
Ok, spend working for me. Who wants free Veo? Go make an account here: http://159.89.106.253:8080/wallet.html - Save your private key! Then, put your pub key (wallet address) here, and I'll send ~1.0 Veo to your address. Use your Veo to lock funds in a channel, and then place a bets on BTC +/-12k$ via Zack's market.
G
01:24
Gonzalo
In reply to this message
Please send me some, I'll try later. My full node is stoped right now and the light wallet not mining at the moment, don't know why (Chrome on Windows Server 2008)
01:24
Thanks
01:24
BBr9r23dAd/+dx2/xIBMGq4SwhJdKJEVUlfmEaD98orhHfaWr6YNErYPbYt+4EF1KkctQkZ3ysRWe03WT3aU16A=
MH
01:31
Mandel Hoff
01:32
Zack, any reason my amount to send to that BBr9... address fails from the light wallet? I loaded my Private key, and my balance is 60. I tried amount to send of 1.0 and 10 - wasn't sure if it was satoshi or veo units.
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Z
02:29
Zack
His account doesn't exist, so we need a create account TX, not a spend TX.
It would be nice if this happened automatically like it did before.
It would be nice if this happened automatically like it did before.
MH
02:32
Ok, create account worked! 1 Veo sent.
02:33
Free Veo! Post your address, and I'll send it. Please test the Channels and Market-Bets with your free Veo.
F
02:34
Francesco @ Simply
Thanks, here's by pubkey: BHB9b2+jrErzoMxb//c3WG/9Jf0zDkMk7rxrH5PP4fsgL2DKm7X9r9QcPrDkdEoQn6EOKA6iA2d/Qa8gFVt2oR8=
How do I access the market?
How do I access the market?
MH
02:35
Veo sent!
F
02:35
Francesco @ Simply
👍
MH
02:36
Mandel Hoff
Use the light wallet to lock funds in a channel - like reserving collateral. Then, make a bet using your channel funds - again on the light wallet web page.
02:37
Your bet is made to a market. You can find markets on the explorer web page, but there is currently only one market bet available: btc at +/-12k$.
02:37
F
02:37
Francesco @ Simply
Thanks will test it out and bet
Z
MH
02:38
Mandel Hoff
When you make a bet, you have to set the market address for the bet. The +/-12k$ btc market address is this: 4K6Ip+cMpyOZXB9/7n2Ax4TMgncZTRGymntyNDoggCI=
02:39
Be sure you save your channel state file via the light wallet too. That downloads a text file that indicates how much funds are locked in the channel you made with the server.
MH
03:03
Mandel Hoff
Zack, is there a reason why light wallet and explorer give different account balances for this?
BD1rrLUjQO/jEm3yO2lfAHziKr3aY+F+4IZRRa3mYuczIvRMqj8XcxTQcu+9QJUsT+nHoAcKCxu7zOqixpoyRpo=
BD1rrLUjQO/jEm3yO2lfAHziKr3aY+F+4IZRRa3mYuczIvRMqj8XcxTQcu+9QJUsT+nHoAcKCxu7zOqixpoyRpo=
Z
03:04
Zack
In reply to this message
The Explorer includes the zero-confirmation txs from the mempool. The Explorer does not verify any Merkel proofs. You are just trusting the server to send an honest number.
03:05
Maybe you need to download more headers for the light node?
MH
03:06
Mandel Hoff
I did that - should be up to date on the light node. I refreshed the page and clicked the "get more headers" button. Still shows 60, which is stale.
Z
03:12
Zack
In reply to this message
I confirmed that it gives 60 from the light node and 57.something from the Explorer.
I also see that there is a create account TX in the mempool.
Once this TX is included in a block, the the light node will show the smaller number too.
I also see that there is a create account TX in the mempool.
Once this TX is included in a block, the the light node will show the smaller number too.
MH
03:14
Mandel Hoff
I mined some more blocks and that worked. Both show 57.x now.
03:15
I had mined a 3-5-ish blocks after the spend, so I assumed it got captured there - but, that appears to not have been the case.
Z
03:17
Zack
If you do a
sync:start(). it will share the txs you know about with he server.
03:17
And download txs you don't know about
MH
03:18
Mandel Hoff
That was probably the cause. I mined on my node and the light wallet txs were on your node, so it hadn't been shared yet.
Deleted joined group by link from Group
raketralph joined group by link from Group
F
06:49
Francesco @ Simply
In reply to this message
I'm doing these steps with 0.1 veo, and the same is happening to me. What am I doign wrong? Also, when I download the data, it's just {}
Z
06:52
Zack
In reply to this message
0.1 veo should be enough.
Please be more specific about what you did, and what happened.
With the information you gave me so far, I cannot help you.
what data did you download that looks like {}?
Please be more specific about what you did, and what happened.
With the information you gave me so far, I cannot help you.
what data did you download that looks like {}?
F
06:53
Francesco @ Simply
I've got a balance of 2, and followed the same steps as Mandell Hoff. Coins: 0.1, Delay 0, Duration 3900. When I click make channel the values reset but I'm not sure if anything happened because my balance remained at 2, and when I click to download the channel data as a txt all that is contained in the file is {}
Z
06:55
Zack
The server will not allow you to make a channel with a delay of 0. Because then either of you could steal the money in the channel, and the other would have no recourse.
This means you have 0 blocks of time to provide evidence to stop them from stealing from you.
This means you have 0 blocks of time to provide evidence to stop them from stealing from you.
06:55
I think the minimum delay might be 100, not certain.
F
06:57
Francesco @ Simply
Before I read your message I tried again, and it worked with 0 delay
06:57
Deleted Account
Just out of curiusity, how come SHA256 ASIC miners are not going to work? what's the possiblity that people with ASIC miners will take over the network after the launch
Z
06:58
Zack
In reply to this message
once a chip is made it is expensive to modify the chip to do something different.
Amoveo stores difficulty differently, the header is a different size, the nonce is in a different place.
Amoveo stores difficulty differently, the header is a different size, the nonce is in a different place.
06:59
Deleted Account
Sweet! Thanks
Z
07:00
Deleted Account
Is there anybody working on a desktop GUI wallet? I'm thinking of working on one 🙂
Z
07:02
Zack
In reply to this message
There are 2 different javascript GUI. one is a light node that you can run by itself.
The other depends on a Amoveo full node running on the same system.
The other depends on a Amoveo full node running on the same system.
F
07:06
Francesco @ Simply
I'm pretty sure I saw the market interface but me the dummy refreshed without saving the channel data. Now I'm retrying to open another one and getting an error
07:06
Deleted Account
In reply to this message
for the full node one. is it the cli that runs after "make prod-attach"?
07:07
or is it standalone program that connects to the full node?
Z
07:12
Zack
In reply to this message
I can't see that picture. it is fuzzy.
If your account already has a channel then you currently cannot make another channel for that account.
You can make a new account and make a channel with your new account.
If your account already has a channel then you currently cannot make another channel for that account.
You can make a new account and make a channel with your new account.
07:14
In reply to this message
make prod-attach turns on the erlang command line interpreter.
You can run both javascript interfaces without turning on the erlang command line interpreter.
Both javascript interfaces are turned on by default. you just visit the right web page.
localhost:8080/wallet.html is the light-node one.
You can run both javascript interfaces without turning on the erlang command line interpreter.
Both javascript interfaces are turned on by default. you just visit the right web page.
localhost:8080/wallet.html is the light-node one.
07:15
In reply to this message
localhost:8081/main.html is the one that depends on a full node on the same machine.
I stopped maintaining it a while ago, it probably doesn't work well.
I stopped maintaining it a while ago, it probably doesn't work well.
07:18
I added an interface to the light node for closing your channel.
F
07:33
Francesco @ Simply
I'm getting a POST 500 Internal Server Error for anything that I do. Is the wallet unlocked? I see that this happened to someone before.
Z
07:36
Zack
In reply to this message
This error report does not have enough details for me to be able to help you.
F
07:44
Francesco @ Simply
In reply to this message
does this help?
I've got a balance of 2 and trying to send 1 veo to an address. Returns 500 error
spend_tx.js:50 ["spend","BHB9b2+jrErzoMxb//c3WG/9Jf0zDkMk7rxrH5PP4fsgL2DKm7X9r9QcPrDkdEoQn6EOKA6iA2d/Qa8gFVt2oR8=",2,152050,"BCxXtXwVXrZ2YMmp5Hp1S2hKmlfxzEx8TK/PbwoM9zXdx2r6p5BUOUZJF4QzhWMRn6ui1Oey8pvoxlfgFymLumQ=",100000000,0]
spend_tx.js:52 ["signed",["spend","BHB9b2+jrErzoMxb//c3WG/9Jf0zDkMk7rxrH5PP4fsgL2DKm7X9r9QcPrDkdEoQn6EOKA6iA2d/Qa8gFVt2oR8=",2,152050,"BCxXtXwVXrZ2YMmp5Hp1S2hKmlfxzEx8TK/PbwoM9zXdx2r6p5BUOUZJF4QzhWMRn6ui1Oey8pvoxlfgFymLumQ=",100000000,0],"MEUCIQDxwAWdJswfdO8jkxegaJnJxok+n3W1OTtdyxBBVg7SjAIgZz4mwBc7G4whuwM765rTFirT1rVJP9YWhi049AHGoK4=",[-6]]
spend_tx.js:53 pubkey is
spend_tx.js:54 BCxXtXwVXrZ2YMmp5Hp1S2hKmlfxzEx8TK/PbwoM9zXdx2r6p5BUOUZJF4QzhWMRn6ui1Oey8pvoxlfgFymLumQ=
spend_tx.js:55 BHB9b2+jrErzoMxb//c3WG/9Jf0zDkMk7rxrH5PP4fsgL2DKm7X9r9QcPrDkdEoQn6EOKA6iA2d/Qa8gFVt2oR8=
rpc.js:5 POST http://159.89.106.253:8080/ 500 (Internal Server Error)
I've got a balance of 2 and trying to send 1 veo to an address. Returns 500 error
spend_tx.js:50 ["spend","BHB9b2+jrErzoMxb//c3WG/9Jf0zDkMk7rxrH5PP4fsgL2DKm7X9r9QcPrDkdEoQn6EOKA6iA2d/Qa8gFVt2oR8=",2,152050,"BCxXtXwVXrZ2YMmp5Hp1S2hKmlfxzEx8TK/PbwoM9zXdx2r6p5BUOUZJF4QzhWMRn6ui1Oey8pvoxlfgFymLumQ=",100000000,0]
spend_tx.js:52 ["signed",["spend","BHB9b2+jrErzoMxb//c3WG/9Jf0zDkMk7rxrH5PP4fsgL2DKm7X9r9QcPrDkdEoQn6EOKA6iA2d/Qa8gFVt2oR8=",2,152050,"BCxXtXwVXrZ2YMmp5Hp1S2hKmlfxzEx8TK/PbwoM9zXdx2r6p5BUOUZJF4QzhWMRn6ui1Oey8pvoxlfgFymLumQ=",100000000,0],"MEUCIQDxwAWdJswfdO8jkxegaJnJxok+n3W1OTtdyxBBVg7SjAIgZz4mwBc7G4whuwM765rTFirT1rVJP9YWhi049AHGoK4=",[-6]]
spend_tx.js:53 pubkey is
spend_tx.js:54 BCxXtXwVXrZ2YMmp5Hp1S2hKmlfxzEx8TK/PbwoM9zXdx2r6p5BUOUZJF4QzhWMRn6ui1Oey8pvoxlfgFymLumQ=
spend_tx.js:55 BHB9b2+jrErzoMxb//c3WG/9Jf0zDkMk7rxrH5PP4fsgL2DKm7X9r9QcPrDkdEoQn6EOKA6iA2d/Qa8gFVt2oR8=
rpc.js:5 POST http://159.89.106.253:8080/ 500 (Internal Server Error)
Kryptonik Joe joined group by link from Group
Z
07:53
Zack
In reply to this message
If the address doesn't exist yet you need to use create_account instead of spend.
F
Z
10:25
Zack
I added a new feature to the light node.
If you accidentally lose your channel data, you can ask the server to give you a copy.
If you accidentally lose your channel data, you can ask the server to give you a copy.
MH
Rose joined group by link from Group
2 February 2018
MH
01:23
Mandel Hoff
Amoveo Light Wallet Video tutorials:
01:23
Part 1:
01:23
Part 2: Making Bets:
Z
01:59
Zack
Cool videos. You understand Amoveo well.
A couple small corrections:
If you bet at the price 50, that means you will either double your money or lose it all.
If you bet at price 2, then that means you will either gain 50x more money, or you will lose it all.
If you bet at price 98, then that means you will either gain 2% more money, or lose it all.
You don't have to mine a block for bets to be includes in the market. The market is inside the channels. We can do channel stuff almost instantly without waiting for any block confirmations.
A couple small corrections:
If you bet at the price 50, that means you will either double your money or lose it all.
If you bet at price 2, then that means you will either gain 50x more money, or you will lose it all.
If you bet at price 98, then that means you will either gain 2% more money, or lose it all.
You don't have to mine a block for bets to be includes in the market. The market is inside the channels. We can do channel stuff almost instantly without waiting for any block confirmations.
02:01
The cost of a channel is proportional to how many coins are locked into it.
If you have 0.1 coins, then it only costs 125 satoshis per block.
If you have 0.1 coins, then it only costs 125 satoshis per block.
02:05
In the video, I think the market bet didn't work.
MH
02:10
Mandel Hoff
You're right - it didn't. I posted the bet error details in a github issue.
02:11
I'll add your corrections to the video text descriptions.
MH
03:18
Mandel Hoff
I updated the videos with correction cards too now. New youtube links. Had to delete old videos rather than correct them.
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=Hhfxsxh40Pw
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=SPlNjGF3wCk
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=Hhfxsxh40Pw
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=SPlNjGF3wCk
03:21
Ugh, I'm bad at the youtube game. Links:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhfxsxh40Pw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPlNjGF3wCk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhfxsxh40Pw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPlNjGF3wCk
Z
03:26
Zack
Do you have a reddit account? This would be a cool thing to share there too.
It is best to share these videos from accounts you own, because if you make changes again you will have the power to update the links.
It is best to share these videos from accounts you own, because if you make changes again you will have the power to update the links.
MH
03:26
Mandel Hoff
Ok
03:29
F
04:59
Francesco @ Simply
Thanks mandell it'll be helpful
Z
05:05
Zack
I think I froze the testnet.
Z
05:57
Zack
I fixed it. I guess I hadn't updated the software on the server in a couple days.
06:02
I had to delete the market and channel state on the server
MH
06:39
Mandel Hoff
Confirmed channels and bets working from light wallet again.
Z
06:39
Zack
great
Z
08:16
Zack
There is a good chance we can launch main net this month.
I am feeling nervous.
I didn't hire anyone to audit it. I don't want to put the project into debt, not to me or anyone else.
I feel that getting the incentives right is more important than having perfect security.
We can do hard forks to fix it after each attack.
But this means it will break a lot in the beginning.
I am thinking we might only have service 1/2 the time. Days at a time will go by when no TXS are processed.
I am feeling nervous.
I didn't hire anyone to audit it. I don't want to put the project into debt, not to me or anyone else.
I feel that getting the incentives right is more important than having perfect security.
We can do hard forks to fix it after each attack.
But this means it will break a lot in the beginning.
I am thinking we might only have service 1/2 the time. Days at a time will go by when no TXS are processed.
MH
08:39
Mandel Hoff
Sounds fun. Probably should test what happens when markets reach their target block (ie blk 4500 for the one open market).
Z
MH
08:40
Mandel Hoff
I think you increased the mined block value recently - probably need to pay the miner address an increased value too. I don't think the miner reward was increased along with the block value.
Z
08:41
Zack
The mining pool is paying too little? OK, thanks for mentioning.
MH
08:41
Mandel Hoff
It's still paying out that 0.007, and I think the pool keeps ~1.0.
G
08:42
Gonzalo
🙈😁
08:42
I confirm that 0.007 per block
Z
08:46
Zack
ok, I fixed it. now it is 0.7 per block.
08:47
5-minute fix.
Next time I will do it even faster.
Next time I will do it even faster.
MH
08:48
Mandel Hoff
Did you say a server has to match funds in a channel with a user or did I miss understand?
Z
08:49
Zack
The server will happily make channels with any ratio of funds. you pay a fee in proportion to the total amount of money in a channel.
08:50
right now for simplicity's sake, I set up the light node to only make channels that start with each of you having about the same amount of money.
MH
08:52
Mandel Hoff
Seems "limiting" for a market if the server has to match funds to all that make channels to the server.
08:55
0.3 seems high for a pool fee too. I'd probably suggest .1 or lower but above .01
Z
08:55
Zack
I was thinking like this: a person will put some money on the server, and there should be an interest rate if any customer wants exclusive access to some of the money.
Ideally we would charge more for the money on the server's side, and less for the money on the customer's side, but that is more complicated to program.
Aspects of the design like this do not have any influence on the consensus mechanism. We can change how channels is stored, and we can change how channel fees are charged, without needing any hard fork.
There can be multiple implementations of channel software on Amoveo at the same time.
The channels are turing complete, so you can adapt them to your needs.
Ideally we would charge more for the money on the server's side, and less for the money on the customer's side, but that is more complicated to program.
Aspects of the design like this do not have any influence on the consensus mechanism. We can change how channels is stored, and we can change how channel fees are charged, without needing any hard fork.
There can be multiple implementations of channel software on Amoveo at the same time.
The channels are turing complete, so you can adapt them to your needs.
MH
08:57
Mandel Hoff
Ok, channels are full banking relationship then. I was thinking more like collateral holding for bets as it is now. Makes sense if it's configurable long term for variety of uses.
I
08:58
Iridescence
In reply to this message
I think forking for updates/repairs is okay. It is similar to Ethereum in that sense
Z
08:59
Zack
In reply to this message
I agree, but there are a couple advantages to keeping it high.
1) Over-charging encourages other people to undercut me, and I want there to be more mining pools.
2) the mining software isn't completely secure. if a fork happens, the mining pool will pay rewards for blocks mined on either side.
If it is possible to drain the server's funds, then we wouldn't be able to make channels.
I guess I could just use a different server for the mining pool and for the channels.
1) Over-charging encourages other people to undercut me, and I want there to be more mining pools.
2) the mining software isn't completely secure. if a fork happens, the mining pool will pay rewards for blocks mined on either side.
If it is possible to drain the server's funds, then we wouldn't be able to make channels.
I guess I could just use a different server for the mining pool and for the channels.
MH
09:00
Mandel Hoff
Yes, I was just about to ask how can I turn off serving channels from my pool and node.
Z
09:03
Zack
In reply to this message
There should probably be on-off switches for all these things in the configuration file.
09:09
In reply to this message
There is already a value in the configuration file called time_value.
This is how much it costs per coin per block to have a channel open. Right now it is 1250.
If you set this number higher than 100000000 then your node should refuse anyone to make channels.
This is how much it costs per coin per block to have a channel open. Right now it is 1250.
If you set this number higher than 100000000 then your node should refuse anyone to make channels.
09:10
The mining pool software doesn't know anything about channels.
MH
09:18
Mandel Hoff
Smart
Z
09:24
Zack
If the network raises the block reward, it would be annoying to update all the mining pool software.
So I guess the mining pool should ask the full node how big the block reward currently is.
So I guess the mining pool should ask the full node how big the block reward currently is.
09:26
I think it would be better if the mining pool paid out rewards in a channel. That way we could pay thousands of rewards per block, and not have any TX fees.
09:27
We could pay each customer a reward for every 10 seconds of mining they accomplish.
MH
09:39
Mandel Hoff
Wow that's pretty awesome concept. I think other pools prefer slower payouts because they only want to pay shares for blocks that make it to the longest chain and live on. Instant mining rewards would likely overpay frequently
Z
17:09
Zack
In reply to this message
you are right. only paying rewards for blocks that get included is a way to distribute some of the risk to everyone who is mining in the pool, this way the mining pool server has less risk.
Z
18:37
Zack
Survey time.
When amoveo launches, how much money per month do you plan on spending on mining?
When amoveo launches, how much money per month do you plan on spending on mining?
G
19:29
Gonzalo
5-20$
MH
19:34
Mandel Hoff
I may run up to 60 mh/s. Have some monero cpu that I'll be using so just power costs.
G
19:36
Gonzalo
my 20$ for hiring a cheap vps and run a full node, just for helping, I won't be rich for sure ;-)
Z
19:36
Zack
So at the current testnet difficulty, you find more than 1 block a second? Am I estimating right?
MH
19:36
Mandel Hoff
I ran 2mh/s with 7 cpu threads on one box.
19:38
I haven't pushed more than 2mh/s yet
Will try 60mh/s at launch.
Will try 60mh/s at launch.
19:40
In reply to this message
This is exactly right.l for current diff. I added metrics and it averages exactly
19:40
Deleted Account
As Gonzalo will one cheap VPS server to support the network
G
19:41
Gonzalo
right now running the light wallet miner on a 4 core Xeon E3-1220 v3 (process is waisting 25% on every core) I'm finding *maybe* 1 block every 10 minutes or less
19:42
don't know the h/s ratio
MH
19:42
Mandel Hoff
Odds are currently 1 on 40 at current diff.
19:42
1 in 40 million
Z
19:42
Zack
So it takes 40 mh at the current difficulty.
If you have 2 mh/s, you would find a block every 20 seconds.
If you have 2 mh/s, you would find a block every 20 seconds.
19:45
If Mandel has more than 1/2 of the mining power, he could earn a lot more money by doubling his mining power every time the difficulty retargets.
This would also provide a better user experience during the first days.
This would also provide a better user experience during the first days.
G
19:45
Gonzalo
Zack is it possible to add the mh/s ratio on the light wallet miner? I love data 😁
Z
G
19:45
Gonzalo
Nice!
19:46
Mandel you will pay for the beers ;-)
MH
19:46
Mandel Hoff
I likely won't double my hash power. That's probably peak speed for me.
19:47
60mh/s is like 30 boxes with 7threads.
G
19:47
Gonzalo
wow
Z
19:47
Zack
I mean it might be better for you to start with 15 mh/s, then when it retargets use 30 mh/s, and when it retargets a 2nd time, double to 60 mh/s
Maybe even start with 3.25 mh/s
Maybe even start with 3.25 mh/s
19:48
If you are finding more than half the blocks, then I think you would earn more money by slowing down.
19:48
Otherwise the difficulty will go too high, and it will get too expensive to mine right away.
MH
19:49
Mandel Hoff
We call that "slowin' your roll"
19:49
Good tip.
Z
19:50
Zack
You can buy 2000 block rewards for $0.20 cents each.
If you take your time, then they will only be $0.40 each in the next batch. If you rush, they might be $20.00 each in the next batch
If you take your time, then they will only be $0.40 each in the next batch. If you rush, they might be $20.00 each in the next batch
G
19:50
Gonzalo
this is probably true... If you are mining alone (or almost alone, with a very small miners competing with you), you will get the same amount if you mine with a cheap casio calculator or with an expensive server...
Z
19:51
Zack
yes
MH
19:52
Mandel Hoff
Thanks for helping optomize my profits. 😜
Z
19:52
Zack
This will optimize my mining profits too.
As long as we can take advantage of gentleman's agreements, I think we should.
This will make mining look more attractive to newcomers who can easily undercut the price.
It is a strategy that encourages growth.
As long as we can take advantage of gentleman's agreements, I think we should.
This will make mining look more attractive to newcomers who can easily undercut the price.
It is a strategy that encourages growth.
G
19:52
Gonzalo
haha
MH
19:54
Mandel Hoff
Nash equilibrium?
Z
19:57
Zack
Yeah, when there are only a few people participating in one side of a market, the nash equilibrium is an ologopoly. They talk to each other and agree on a price. They charge the highest price customers are willing to pay.
So maybe we will be able to mine at a low cost and sell at a high cost.
If there are lots of participants on both sides, then the nash equilibrium switches. Everyone keeps trying to undercut each other. They charge a price approaching the cost of production.
So we would only be able to sell at near the cost of mining.
So maybe we will be able to mine at a low cost and sell at a high cost.
If there are lots of participants on both sides, then the nash equilibrium switches. Everyone keeps trying to undercut each other. They charge a price approaching the cost of production.
So we would only be able to sell at near the cost of mining.
G
19:58
Gonzalo
In reply to this message
I've found 6 blocks in the last 20 minutes, I don't know my h/s ratio nor the networks ratio.
MH
20:00
Mandel Hoff
Good stuff. Ignorant participants, like myself, can really mess things up. I'll try to be careful, but ignorant greed can be powerful.
20:02
6 X 4 million / 20min / 60 sec
20:02
200 kh/s
Z
20:03
Zack
I think the C-miner is like 20x faster than the javascript one.
So maybe you would have 4 mh/s if you switched.
So maybe you would have 4 mh/s if you switched.
MH
20:03
Mandel Hoff
Oops 40 mill not 4 mill, x10 the result
Z
20:03
Zack
It probably depends on your CPU and browser.
G
20:04
Gonzalo
200 kh/s?? I't seems a lot for a CPU
MH
20:04
Mandel Hoff
How many threads you running? Browser or standalone miner?
20:05
Oh nm. My math did use 6x40. I just typed 6x4
G
20:05
Gonzalo
browser on a 4 core Xeon E3-1220 v3 (process is waisting 25% on every core)
MH
20:05
Mandel Hoff
200khs is good math result
G
20:05
Gonzalo
ok thanks
20:06
anyway I think I've been lucky
20:07
I'll see the numbers for 40 minutes and 1 hour
Z
20:27
Zack
In reply to this message
The light node miner now displays your mh/s while mining. you need to do at least 1 mh before it starts displaying the number.
MH
G
20:38
Gonzalo
Nice
20:39
I've found 18 blocks in the last hour, so 6 every 20 minutes
20:41
just refreshed the light wallet, after 1 minute mining it says 1.30 mh/s
20:42
not 200 kh/s
Z
20:47
Maybe you are actually doing 1.3, but the mining pool software is only 25% efficient. So 3/4 of the work is wasted.
I haven't measured how efficient the mining pool is before.
I haven't measured how efficient the mining pool is before.
G
20:48
Gonzalo
I've started mining on a slower vps, also on the browser, now both miners are around 1.15 mh/s
MH
20:54
Mandel Hoff
What do you use for vps? I use azure and amazon but sounds like they are not as ubiquitous as I had thought.
Z
20:54
Zack
what is the reason for the vps? is it to share blocks faster? privacy?
20:55
oh, vps, not vpn
20:55
my mitake
20:55
I have been using digital ocean
MH
20:55
Mandel Hoff
Oh yeah. They are big too. They have great documentation.
Z
20:56
Zack
Last time I tried Amazon, it took me months to figure out how to turn off one of their services that I didn't want. It felt like a scam taking my money.
20:57
with digital ocean it is so easy to turn things off.
MH
20:59
Mandel Hoff
Haha. Everything Azure changes their dashboard I feel the same.
G
Z
21:02
Zack
ideally we would all use different vps, and some of us would have physical control of our networking nodes, and most of the veo should be in cold storage.
MH
21:06
Mandel Hoff
Cold storage just a variety of accounts that become unused once they get funds?
Z
21:11
Zack
cold storage means that you generate and store the private key only on machines that will never touch the internet.
21:12
you can use a watch-only wallet when connected to the internet. To view your funds/channels.
MH
21:20
Mandel Hoff
Yeah. compters not on the Internet... funny how that feels like a luxury item now.
G
21:23
Gonzalo
I'll print the private key and store it on the freezer 😂
G
22:41
Gonzalo
Zack, my VEO balance is not updating since you've added the mh/s to the light wallet
MH
22:43
Mandel Hoff
Click the update headers button and then check balance?
G
22:43
Gonzalo
yes, already done, still stuck
22:44
also tried to query on the explorer page and still the same
22:44
and tried to mine more blocks just to be sure
3 February 2018
MH
00:08
Mandel Hoff
Did you load your address before mining? Might be paying out to an address your not expecting
G
00:10
Gonzalo
Yes, I'm mining to my address for sure, thanks
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MH
00:21
Mandel Hoff
Ok, sorry. Maybe Zack knows more.
MH
00:37
Mandel Hoff
I can test later but pretty busy now
G
01:07
Gonzalo
Thanks, I'm pretty bussy now as well, better I'll wait for Zack to have a look
MH
01:50
Mandel Hoff
Confirmed. I think latest light wallet miner isn't being paid. 🔥
Z
01:51
Zack
When I updated the server I forgot to unlock the wallet.
That is why it isn't paying out.
I will unlock it now.
That is why it isn't paying out.
I will unlock it now.
01:52
done
MH
02:00
Mandel Hoff
Works. Credit shows up on 2nd block after mined block but that's valid
MH
03:50
Mandel Hoff
If most of the Veo is in cold storage, can those accounts still participate in governance decisions?
Z
03:52
Zack
The oracle is can be modified by the governance, but it is my expectation that the community will keep the oracle running slow enough that we will have enough time to move data by sneaker-net from the cold storage computers.
MH
03:55
Mandel Hoff
What are some of the simple Oracle/Governance use cases that would be useful to test? How does it "learn" if btc is +/-12k$ when block height hits 4500?
Z
03:57
Zack
Oracles are tested here: so you can see the order of things https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/blob/master/apps/ae_core/src/consensus/txs/test_txs.erl#L404
03:58
It is an on-chain market mechanism.
We can make transactions that are trades stored in an on-chain order book.
We can make transactions that are trades stored in an on-chain order book.
03:59
The off-chain market in the channels is for betting on something we don't know about yet. Like who will win a football game tomorrow.
The on-chain market oracle is for betting on things we do know the result for. Like who won a football game yesterday.
The on-chain market oracle is for betting on things we do know the result for. Like who won a football game yesterday.
MH
04:09
Mandel Hoff
I'm glad you understand that part of all of this (and have test cases for it too).
Z
04:11
Zack
A simple use case.
Once someone starts using closed-source GPU mining software, we should make the block reward much lower until we can release open-source software.
Once someone starts using closed-source GPU mining software, we should make the block reward much lower until we can release open-source software.
04:11
to limit the damage
MH
04:14
Mandel Hoff
That sounds good. I understand what use cases can be applied - just confused on how a user interact to propose that and what steps other users would need to take to agree to it. (I'm spoiled by the light wallet and easy "button-actions".)
Z
04:16
Zack
Since the oracle is on-chain, it will be more expensive than channel stuff. I think the majority of users wont use it.
Still, we should probably add it to the light node eventually.
Still, we should probably add it to the light node eventually.
04:17
There is a minimum amount to participate in the oracle.
04:20
If a typical user wants to help make an oracle, they could participate in an insured crowdfunding contract to raise money to launch the oracle.
04:21
Once someone attacks the oracle, it will be a big money-making opportunity. Everyone who defends can double their money.
So we should add it to the light node, that way everyone can double their money.
So we should add it to the light node, that way everyone can double their money.
MH
04:23
Mandel Hoff
Is it costly to attack the oracle? Could be an inflation attack against money in cold storage.
Z
04:23
Zack
yeah, the defenders are getting money that the attacker loses.
MH
04:24
Mandel Hoff
👍
04:26
Oracle manipulation is dangerous like "Alternative Facts".
Z
04:30
Zack
In reply to this message
The oracle is a consensus mechanism. It is a tool for communities to come to consensus about what they believe is true.
At some point, if the community disagrees on too much, then it is necessary for the blockchain to fork too.
We can't stop people from forking the blockchain, so it is best to plan for it to happen, and build the right incentives for a clean split that doesn't depend on a centralized market for selling on one side and buying on the other.
At some point, if the community disagrees on too much, then it is necessary for the blockchain to fork too.
We can't stop people from forking the blockchain, so it is best to plan for it to happen, and build the right incentives for a clean split that doesn't depend on a centralized market for selling on one side and buying on the other.
MH
04:34
Mandel Hoff
So, VeoCash or VeoClassic? 😆
G
04:52
Gonzalo
😂 and VeoGold, VeoLite...
MH
04:52
Mandel Hoff
😂
04:58
Deleted Account
alveol
Z
05:03
Zack
I completed all the programming tasks I wanted to do before mainnet launch.
Now I want to test all these things on the testnet one last time, and fix anything that broke:
* spending in the light node
* creating accounts in the light node
* make sure that markets are working from the light wallet.
- betting
- canceling a bet
- combining shares
- collecting winnings
- when bets get matched, the ss should be displayed in the browser.
* closing markets in the light node.
- open orders should be settled.
- winning shares should be paid the prize.
- losing shares should be deleted.
* lightning payments from the light node should be tested.
* We should try updating a governance variable in the testnet.
Then I think we will be ready to make the 2 week announcement before the mainnet launch.
Now I want to test all these things on the testnet one last time, and fix anything that broke:
* spending in the light node
* creating accounts in the light node
* make sure that markets are working from the light wallet.
- betting
- canceling a bet
- combining shares
- collecting winnings
- when bets get matched, the ss should be displayed in the browser.
* closing markets in the light node.
- open orders should be settled.
- winning shares should be paid the prize.
- losing shares should be deleted.
* lightning payments from the light node should be tested.
* We should try updating a governance variable in the testnet.
Then I think we will be ready to make the 2 week announcement before the mainnet launch.
05:09
We first started planning to launch before the end of April about 12 months ago.
So It is pretty cool that we are 2 months ahead of schedule after so much time.
So It is pretty cool that we are 2 months ahead of schedule after so much time.
MH
05:22
Mandel Hoff
Exciting! Anyone that needs Veo to test with, post your address and I'll send some over.
I
05:43
Iridescence
Nice! I'll fire up my node again and give those a whirl
Z
07:24
Zack
creating accounts, spending to accounts, and deleting accounts from the light node are tested and working.
Z
08:09
Zack
betting and canceling bets is tested and working.
Kevin Roberts BWD invited Deleted Account
Deleted joined group by link from Group
16:37
Deleted Account
Amoveo will launch this month?
Z
16:39
Zack
In reply to this message
Maybe. It depends how long it takes me to get these last tests to pass.
And then there will be a 2 week warning period so we can all start mining together.
And then there will be a 2 week warning period so we can all start mining together.
16:39
Deleted Account
ok nice, i need to setup a miner quickly
Z
16:40
Zack
The Light node is having trouble verifying merkle proofs of governance values, but I should be able to fix it today.
16:40
Deleted Account
it's CPU minable now?
16:40
No need to have GPUs?
Z
16:40
Zack
The test net is cpu minable. Gpu cannot mine yet.
16:42
Deleted Account
Ok, thank you Zack
Z
17:02
Zack
Digital ocean is offering some computers that have extra cpu power.
I might write the gpu miner before main net launch still.
I might write the gpu miner before main net launch still.
17:03
Deleted Account
yep but i have no mining rig 🙁
P
Z
18:11
Zack
check their webste
G
18:29
Gonzalo
Chrome on Windows Server 2008 uses 25% of each core, but
18:30
Chrome on Windows 7 uses 100% of just 1 core
18:30
both machines have 4 cores
18:30
first one is a physical CPU, second one is a VM on another physical CPU
IMPLENIA - Crypto Fund 🇸🇨 🇨🇭 joined group by link from Group
I?
Z
19:11
Zack
yes, this is why we want to upgrade from CPU to GPU as soon as possible.
I?
G
19:41
Gonzalo
Good idea, but I believe there's no hurry at the moment. Maybe I'm wrong but I think Amoveo has to reach mainstream before any botnet think about mining it.
Z
P
Z
21:09
Zack
In reply to this message
The easiest way to mine is to visit this page and click "start mining" http://159.89.106.253:8080/wallet.html
Does not work on phones.
Does not work on phones.
P
Z
P
21:23
Pan
What is the minimal requirement of a full node?
Sorry, I havn't found it.
Sorry, I havn't found it.
Z
21:25
Zack
In reply to this message
It depends on what the community decides are good governance variables.
At the start, you need about 200 mb of ram available. It has to run ubuntu.
And you need at least 3 gigabytes of space on your hard drive available.
At the start, you need about 200 mb of ram available. It has to run ubuntu.
And you need at least 3 gigabytes of space on your hard drive available.
21:26
I am guessing this will be good enough for the first 3 months.
P
21:26
Pan
Happy to hear that, so I can try it in my vps
MH
21:58
Mandel Hoff
Pretty sure a bot net won't stop 3m$ monero mine and do amoveo. Even if they do, our limited gpu access would still likely get out - gunned by the botnet
4 February 2018
KR
BK
00:19
Big Kurkowski
Yeah gpu miner would be fantastic.
RL
00:51
R L
Zack, I'm working on an idea to use amoveo for a real world use case
Z
00:52
Zack
Cool, if your idea is good, we should add it to this folder: https://github.com/zack-bitcoin/amoveo/tree/master/docs/use-cases-and-ideas
Can you write up an explanation as a pull request to that folder? We can discuss it more on github, that way our conversation will be recorded in a useful place.
Can you write up an explanation as a pull request to that folder? We can discuss it more on github, that way our conversation will be recorded in a useful place.
MH
04:19
Mandel Hoff
Zack, why does the difficulty go in to the hash? Could it just be Sha512(bhash + nonce) instead?
04:20
*sha256
Z
04:26
Zack
yes, i guess it could be sha256(bhash + nonce).
This is a minor mistake that doesn't change the functionality.
This is a minor mistake that doesn't change the functionality.
MH
05:26
Mandel Hoff
Yes, it's minor. Just tinkering with a share-pool system and noticed the miner will need to know both target share difficulty and block difficulty due to block diff being in the sha256.
Z
08:53
Zack
now if your order to buy shares in a market gets matched, then the smart contract in the light node will update correctly, and the gui updates correctly.
MH
09:08
Mandel Hoff
Sounds like a great fix. 👍
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Deleted joined group by link from Group
Z
17:27
Zack
combining shares is tested and working.
G
18:13
Gonzalo
Zack, I've found that, when you send all your VEO from the light wallet, the balance will continue showing the last positive value instead of "0". And also, if you check that address from the explorer, it will say NaN instead of "0"
Z
18:14
Zack
Yes. a deleted account is the same as an account that has never existed.
Currently, the light node merkel library can only be used to prove the existence of things. It can't prove that the database lacks a particular account.
The erlang Merkel library does not have this limitation, so we can update the javascript one to be better.
Currently, the light node merkel library can only be used to prove the existence of things. It can't prove that the database lacks a particular account.
The erlang Merkel library does not have this limitation, so we can update the javascript one to be better.
G
18:15
Gonzalo
ok
MH
22:41
Mandel Hoff
The spend fee in spend_tx.js is hard coded. Is that something I could set very low on my node? Do miners get that like eth gas or the node keeps that?
Z
22:45
Zack
The governance mechanism has a fee for spend tx.
This is the amount of money that gets deleted to include a spend tx.
The miner deletes this much money in order to include the tx.
The tx has a fee on it that can be any size. The fee is paid to the miner.
The miner only makes a profit if the fee you pay is bigger than how much money the miner needs to delete to have the tx included.
Maybe deleting money to include a tx is a bad idea. If that is the case, then we can use the governance mechanism to set all these fees to 0.
This is the amount of money that gets deleted to include a spend tx.
The miner deletes this much money in order to include the tx.
The tx has a fee on it that can be any size. The fee is paid to the miner.
The miner only makes a profit if the fee you pay is bigger than how much money the miner needs to delete to have the tx included.
Maybe deleting money to include a tx is a bad idea. If that is the case, then we can use the governance mechanism to set all these fees to 0.
MH
22:55
Mandel Hoff
Is the deleted amount dynamic with amount spent? Might be nice to display "fee" to the UI (fixed or dynamic).
Z
22:56
Zack
No. the cost to include a tx is proportional to the number of bytes in the tx, and to the computational cost of the tx.
The amount of money you send doesn't change the size, or the computational complexity of a tx. So the amount of money you send doesn't matter for the fee.
The amount of money you send doesn't change the size, or the computational complexity of a tx. So the amount of money you send doesn't matter for the fee.
MH
22:56
Mandel Hoff
I don't think annihilation of veo is a terrible thing. That's what Ripple does. Makes sense if there's no max Veo to counteract inflation.
Z
22:57
Zack
Making txs expensive is helpful for preventing some attacks, it encourages smaller blocks which are easier to sync, keeping the blockchain light in the beginning.
MH
22:58
Mandel Hoff
Is the "deleted fee" on top of the spend_tx.js fee amount then? Is the "deleted fee" reduce the recipient's received amount or deducted from the spender's balance?
Z
22:59
Zack
The fee that gets deleted comes from the account of the miner who chose to include the tx in the block they mined.